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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69753	The generall demands, of the reverend doctors of divinitie, and ministers of the Gospell in Aberdene, concerning the late covenant, in Scotland together, with the answeres, replyes, and duplyes that followed thereupon, in the year, 1638 : reprinted in one book, by order of Parliament.	Forbes, John, 1593-1648.; Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646.	1663 (1663)	Wing C4226; Wing C4225; ESTC R6298	125,063	170

Nations baptizing them In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Ghost tye not Parents to seek Baptism to their Children and Pastors to administer when it is sought then have we no commandement at all for baptizing of Infants which is an Anabaptisticall absurdity But if Parents and Pastors are tyed by this Commandement then Parents ought to seek Baptism to their dying Children not baptized before for then or never and Pastors must accordingly performe that duety then which is incumbent upon them This is that which KING Iames of blessed memory in a conference at Hampton-court Pag. 17 reporteth himself to have answered to a Scotish Minister while he was in Scotland The Minister asked If he thought Baptism so necessarie that if it be omitted the child should be damned No said the KING but if you being called to baptize the child though privatlie should refuse to come I think you should be damned 59. Ye say to avoide the strength of this Argument that the necessity of the commandement standeth onely for Baptism in publick and that no precept requireth Baptism but when it can be had orderly with all the circumstances thereof whereof ye say this is one that it be administred in the presence of that visible Kirk wherof the Children are to be members Thus first ye condemne as unlawfull the administration of Baptism even in the Church God-fathers and God-mothers being present if the whole Congregation be not present there and the like doctrine we find in others also cited on the Margin which soundeth so harshly in the ears of some of your own adherents that they can not be perswaded that this is your doctrine Secondly the Commandement of CHRIST tying us to Baptisme hath no such addition either of the presence of the Congregation or yet of the materiall Kirk This belongeth but to the solemnity and not to the necessary lawfull use of Baptisme Where GOD hath tyed this solemnity to Baptism ye can not show by holy Scripture but where GOD hath tyed us to Baptism we have already shown It is true solemnities should not be lightly omitted but the Law sayeth When evident equity requireth they may be dispensed withe for according to that same Law That which is chief and principall should not be ruled by that which is accessory but contrariwise As for the place of Baptism we may say of it as Tertullian sayeth of the time thereof in the 19 chapter of his Book of Baptism Every day is the LORDS every houre day and time is fit for Baptism it may want of the solemnity but nothing of the grace Neither is such a number as ye require to be present necessary in this case Our Saviour hath taught us Matth. 18. 19. That if two shall agree on Earth as touching any thing that they shall aske it shall be done for them of his Father which is in Heaven For sayeth he where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them We beseech you therefore Brethren to take heed that ye prescribe not to mens consciences Rites of necessity without clear warrand from GODS word by which ye will never be able to prove the necessity of this circumstance required by you in Baptism 60. The practise of the primitive Church both in the Apostles times and thereafter agreeth with this doctrine and practise of ours Sainct Philip baptised the Eunuch on the way Acts 8. Anantas baptized Saul in a private house Acts 9. Sainct Paul baptized the Jaylour in his house Acts 16. If ye answere as others doe that the necessity of the infancy of the Church excused the want of the presence of a Congregation we reply that the same necessity is found in the cases whereof we speak for as unpossible it is for a dying insant who about mid-night is at the last gaspe to enjoy the presence of the congregation as it was impossible for any of the afore mentioned the Eunuch Saul or the Iailor to have had a Congregation present at their Baptism yea more impossible and why should there not be the same effect where there is the same reason 61. The practise of the ancient Church in this is also clear for us This is manifest from the 76 Epistle of S. Cyprian from the Oration of Gregorie Nyssen against them who delayed their Baptism from S. Basill in his 13 Homilie which is an exhortation to Baptism Tom. 1. from Gregorie Nazianzen in his 40. Oration whose words we have cited upon the margine Hence although two fet times were appointed for solemn Baptism yet the case of necessity was ever excepted This is clear by the foresaid Testimonies as also by these following Sir c●us Epist. 1. cap. 2. Tom. 1. Concil Gelas. Epist. 9. ad Episcopos Lucani● Tom. 2. Concil Conc. Antisiodor cap. 18. Tom. 2. Conc. Matiscon 2. cap. 3. Tom. 2. Concil Conc. Meldens cap. 48. Conc. Triburiens cap. 12. Concil in Palatio Vernis cap. 7. Conc. Wormatiens cap. 1. Tom. 3. Concil The learned Causabon in his 16 exercitation cōsidering all this sayeth Woe to them that in the administration of this Sacrament deny their duety to dying Infants under pretence of I know not what Discipline To this same purpose the learned Martin Bucer in the 15 Chapter of his censure of the English Liturgie considering Baptism of sick Infants privatly sayeth In this Constitution all things are hol●ly set down This same practise also is allowed by Doctor Whitaker in his Book against Reynolds Pag. 48. 62. The Congregation say ye whereof the child is to be a member hath interest in this and therefore ought to be present no lesse then at excommunication whereby a rotten member is cut off In this case of necessity there is no prejudice either to the child or to the congregation thorow the want of the congregations presence for there is no neglect nor contempt of the congregation in this case or of any of the members thereof and the child by Baptism though privatly administred is ingrafted into CHRIST and so being joined to the head of the Church becommeth also united unto the Church which is his body If excommunication require the presence of the whole congregation because the power of binding and loosing is delyvered by CHRIST to every particular Church or congregation collectively taken as it is affirmed in the Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies Part. 3. Cap. 8. Pag. 182. then it is not alike with Baptism the power whereof is committed to the Pastors of the Church Matth. 28. But although that ground be not true as we think it is not yet excōmunication is done in presence of the People For this censure may not be inflicted but onely for publick offences and therefore must be publick as the offence is That others also may fear 1 Tim. 5. 20. and have no company with the delinquent that he may be ashamed 2. Thess. 3. 14. and so your

with-holde his Subscription from the Covenant because it doth not as it intendeth not to expresse ever●● duetie we owe to the Kings Majestie as if the not naming were a denying of the duetie Reply What ye have replyed in your Answere to our first Demand we have examined in our Confutation of your Answere 2. If ye consider well all the Circumstances of the making of your Covenant ye will finde that it had not been amisse at this time to have expressed more fullie the Loyaltie of your Intentions to maintaine the KINGS Person and Honour Next it is necessarie to expresse it yet more fully for our cause whom ye require to sweare subscrive your Covenant lest we doe any thing in this matter with a doubting Conscience which is a grievous sinne that is Doubting whether or no we are tyed by our Oath to maintain the KINGS Authority onelie in so farre as it is imployed in the Defence of the foresaid true Religion or at lest as it is not imployed against it For it seemeth to us unlawfull to sweare the maintenance of the KINGS Authority with this limitation precisely And if ye be of a contrary mynde we are most willing to confere with you of this point The ninth Demand VVhethere or no we can sincerely sweare to maintaine the Authority truelie and properlie Monarchicall of the King and withall sweare also disobedience to these Articles which are authorized by his standing Lawes and to maintaine the meanest of his Subjectes against him in their disobedience of his Lawes as yet standing in vigour concerning these thinges ANSWERE 1. The Answere to the first Demand is usefull here also 2. Forbearance of Practise for a time in such a case is rather Obedience then Disobedience for example Kneelling was thought convenient because all memorie of Superstition was past should it not therefore be forborne because Superstition is now revived and flagrant They who practise keep the letter of the Law but they who forbeare keep the life and reason thereof Replye Your Covenant requireth more of us then the forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles as we have often times declared 2. We have also showne that the forbearance of Obedience to standing Lawes without licience of Superiours and contrarie to their commandement especially if it be done by deliberation and if men tye themselves by an Oath to do so is manifest Disobedience 3. The Article of Pearth anent Kneeling was not grounded onelie nor yet principally upon that Narrative which ye mention but rather upon the conveniencie and decencie of the gesture of Kneeling in the receiving of the holie SACRAMENT which reason doeth yet continue as also the other reason which ye mention holdeth yet for the bodie of the People of this Church were never Papists and consequently have no memorie of Popish Superstition as those who lived in time of Reformation 4. We can not see nor conceive how a Vow and Band of maintaining the meanest Subject of this Kingdom against all persons whatsoever and consequently against the KING himself as we have showne in our second Replye in disobedience of his Lawes can consist with that love reverence and subjection which we owe to our KING Neither have ye brought any thing in your Answere to satisfie us in this point And because ye alleadge as we heare that ye are mistaken in this point and doe vindicate your selves by those words of the Covenant wherein ye promise to maintain the KINGS Authority we pray you to expresse your minde more fully concerning it and to showe us 1. What ye meane by mantaining the KINGS Authority in that part of your Covenant wherein ye expresse your loyall Intention To maintain the KINGS Person and Authority and in speciall Whether or no the maintaining of the KINGS Authoritie be taken by you as it excludeth all resisting of his Authority by force of Armes even although he should command thinges unlawfull and contrarie to the Trueth For so we thinke it should be taken and that it should be so taken we are ready to demonstrate Neither can we sweare it in anie other sense 2. Whether your promise of mutuall defence In the same cause of maintayning the true Religion and his Majesties Authority c. ought to be understood of the maintaining the Kings Authority absolu●elie that is Whether he maintaine the true Religion or no Or on the contrarie if it ought to be understood of the maintaining the Kings Authority conditionally in so farre as he maintaineth the true Religion and not any other wayes If you say that it is to be understoode the first way we assent to that part of your Covenant and have no more scruple anent it except that one which we mentioned in our Reply to your second Answere to wit that the words of your Protestation seeme to import more and that your Paction or Covenant is made without the Kings privitie and consent If ye say that it is to be understood the second way then we continue urging our foresaid Demand to wit how a man can maintaine the Kings Authority and withall maintaine the meanest of His Subjects in resisting His Authority And how we can be said to stand for the Kings Honour when we vowe and promise to doe that which hee himselfe professeth to be against his Honour and which in the common judgement of men is thought to be so The determination of this point is more then necessary at this tyme and therefore let us in sinceritie and Brotherly love conferre of it that the Consciences of others who doubt of this may receive satisfaction The Tenth Demand Whether or no we ought to sweare to such a Covenant which taketh away from us all hope of a free Assemblie or Parliament to judge of the matteres presently debated for how can these vote freely of any matter propounded to the decision and deliberation of the Church and Estate who have already sworne to adheere to one part of the Question and how can those who dissent from them submit themselves to their judgement chiefly seeing they are Possessoures and have Lawes Civill and Ecclesiastick standing as yet for them ANSWERE We perceive that this tenth Demand is made of the Articles of Pearth therefore we answere as before That we promise onely forbearance which can prejudge no mans liberty in a Generall Assembly Replye We have showne that your Covenant and Oath importeth a manifest Abjuration of the Articles of Pearth and therefore the swearing of it doeth manifestly prejudge the liberty of Voting in a Nationall Assembly For how can they freely either reason in an Assembly concerning Episcopacy and the Articles of Pearth or else give their judgement without prejudice concerning them who have already promised sworne and vowed first To adheere to the Discipline of the Kirke that is according to your Interpretation to the whole externall policie of the Church as it was 1581. 2. To labour by all meanes lawfull to remove and expell all those Rites and

thereto by prejudice then at satisfaction by searching of the Trueth This reason is grounded upon a mistaking for although our Demands at the first were intended for you onely yet afterwards we resolved to Print them as also our REPLYES the Printing whereof did nowayes depend upon your second Answeres not for love of contention nor desire of vict●ry GOD knoweth but for such reasons as we have expressed in our Preface to the unpartiall Reader whom we hope we have satisfied in this point Your other reason is that the grounds of your Answers to us have proven satisfactory to others who for Age and Learning are prime men of this Kingdom and to whome our modestie will not suffer us to preferre our selves Farre be it from us to be so presumptuous as to preferre our selves to so many Learned and worthy Divines and as farre be it from us to measure the soliditie and sufficiencie of your Answeres by the Habilities or Induments of these who have acquiesced in them If this your reason were good the Papists might more probablie accuse us of prejudice as indeed they unjustlie doe because their Answeres to our Arguments have proven satisfactorie to many thousands of those who for profunditie and subtilitie of wit are inferiour to none of the World but we regarde not this slender motive remembring these words of our Saviour I thanke Thee O Father Lord of Heaven and Earth because Thou hast hid these things from the Wise and Prudent and hast revealed them unto Babes even so O Father for so it seemed good in Thy sight Besides if ye compare the Divines Ancient and Moderne who are of our judgement with these who favour your opinion either in number or in the excellency of their gifts ye shall finde that in this the advantage is greatlie ours In the meane time ye shall know that we can bring far better reasons to free our selves of prejudice then these which ye have brought against us to wit the soliditie of our Arguments which have put you to such straits pardon us to say that which every one who have eyes may see that oft times ye doe not so much as attempt to answere them being glad to passe them by with the show of an Argument in contrarium or some other like shift our humble earnest attestations in calling GOD the onelie competent Iudge as witnesse of our sincerity in the inmost thoughts of our soul our seriously professed Resolution to concurre with you if we should get satisfaction from you the modestie ingenuitie and peaceablenesse of our writings to you and on the contrarie your too great disdainfulnesse and asperitie in your second Answeres bewraying not onelie the weaknesse of your mindes farre by our expectation but also the weaknesse of your cause to unpartiall Readers who ascrive this to the pungent force of our Arguments judging that they have made you somewhat more cholerike then you were before To this wee will adde the great reluctance which some of the most Iudicious Subscribents did finde in their Consciences before they subscrived your Covenant together with the Limitations and Reservations wherewith they subscrived it evidently arguing their strong apprehension of the dangerous ambiguitie and haske sounding of the words of the late Covenant so that even these who are now joined with you have been much affrighted with those things which terrifie us As for your Protestation in the end of your Epistle that ye can no more be brought to our minde then ye can be drawn from the profession of our Religion as it hath been reformed sworne c. Although this importeth no small prejudice possessing and over-ruling your minds yet looking to the invincible force of that Trueth which we mantaine we even yet hope that at last it shall prevaile with you espe●iallie considering that our con●roversie is not concerning the Reformed Religion whereunto we as sincerelie adheare as any whatsoever but concerning the equitie of that forme of Covenant which ye lateli● made Wishing you and all others to adheare truelie and sincerelie to the same true Religion and to all the dueties which in it are recommended to you we most humblie and earnestlie pray the Almightie GOD to pitie his Church in this Kingdom and to unite all our hearts in Trueth and Peace in these most dangerous dayes which although they be to you dayes of gladnesse as ye professe yet to those who love the peace of Sion and the tranquilitie of this Kingdome they are sad and melancholious dayes in respect of the blacke clowdes of GODS wrath hanging over our heads and threatning us with stormes of fearfull Calamities which we pray the Almightie GOD to avert THE FIRST DUPLY. IN our Disputes against the Papists which have been frequent and by GODS grace not unfruitfull as we have learned that to multiply objections against the Trueth is a thing easie as ye say but fruitlesse and vain so also we have learned that to multiply Evasions against solide Arguments brought for the Trueth is a thing no lesse easie but altogether unprofitable which we pray you take heed to How forcible are right words but what doth your arguing reprove JOB 6. 25. 2. Ye say that our objection against your calling and the warrand of your comming to us was framed and published in Print before it was proponed unto you and ere your Answere could be had Indeed our Demands were at the Presse at your comming that they might be in readinesse but were not published before your selves in your Sermons did publickly read them and dispute against them in audience of such of our People as were there present for the time albeit that written copie of them was delivered to you onely and not at that time communicated by us to any other 3. Your Authority which ye acclaim is neither from his Majestie nor warranded by Act of Parli●ment nor by the Lords of his Majesties Counsell nor by any Nationall Synode of this Kingdom nor by any Judicatory established in it And both in your first Answere as also now again ye professe that ye came not hither to us●rpe the Authority of any Civill or Spirituall Judicatorie As for your multitude which ye call almost the whole Kirke and Kingdom it being destitute of Authority foresaid maketh no warrand of ordinary calling Therfore ye seeme to pretend an extraordinary calling from GOD alleadging an extraordinary necessitie at this time which truely we see not in any such degree as may deserve and warrand so great a change from the received order which is publickly by Lawes established in this Kirke and Kingdom That saying of the Apostle Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good workes which ye alleadge for your extraordinary imployment importeth not an extraordinary calling but an ordinary duety to be performed by all Christians according to their Callings 4. The Word of GOD and the Canons of Counsells doe so permit to Pastors the care of the whole Kirke as they must

remember to doe all things decently and in order and not to interpone themselves in their Brethrens charges and against their will And praised be GOD there was not any Combustion Errour or Confusion in these places of our charges as ye doe alleadge Neither did our People stand in need of such helpe from you And if ye meane the Combustion of our Nationall Kirke we doe thinke your remeed not convenient as being in our judgement not agreable to the right way of Trueth and Peace 5. Whereas ye alleadge that if some members of this Kirke had not cared more kindly in this time of common danger then others have done the whole body had been ere now dangerously if not desperately diseased we answere that we most heartily wish any disease of this Church to be rymously prevented and cured But with all we wish this to be done without a rupture and such a dangerous division chiefly seeing our Church is not infected with any such Errours nor is in such dangers as may give just occasion of so fearfull a division which in it selfe is a sore disease and from which in holy Scripture we are often and very earnestly dehorted Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria in his Epistle to Novatian recorded by Eusebius Lib. 6. Historiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cap 37. worthily sayeth You ought rather to have suffered any thing whatsoever for avoyding of cutting as under the Kirke of GOD and Martyrdome for keeping the Kirke from Schisme is no lesse glorious the● which is suffered for not committing Idolatry And in my opinion also it is greater for in suffering Martyrdom for not cōmitting Idolatry a man suffereth for one even for his own soul but here a man suffereth Martyrdome for the whole Kirke 6. Ye affirme that we have no reason to complaine of your carriage here towards us in respect ye for your Sermons preached to our People made choise of vacant houres that they might attend the ordinary times of Worship But indeed this satisfieth not our complaint for we justly complained of your preaching to our People without our consent at any houre and of your labouring to make them subscrive the late Covenant before ye had given satisfaction to us concerning the equity of it 7. Ye reprove us for these harmlesse wordes of a confederation negative Confession That little Confession was long agoe called negative à parte majore And as for that other word it is well knowne to al those who are expert in our Mother tongue in the Latine that covenanting and confederation doe signifie one and the same thing and therefore both these wordes are alike respectfull in our judgement Whereas ye say that your Covenant is made with GOD and doe call it his Covenant and likewise for justifying your swearing and subscriving thereof doe bring some places of Scripture wherein mention is made of a Covenant and Oath betwixt GOD and his People we shall then allow the same name and respect unto your Covenant when ye shall make it manifest that your Covenant in all points therein contained hath no lesse warrand from the written word of GOD then that Covenant which the Israelites did swear in the days of JOSHUA Ioshua 24. verse 25. and in the dayes of JEHOIADA the Priest 2. Kings 11. v. 17. and in the dayes of King ASA 2. Chron. 15. v. 15. and that which is mentioned by Isaiah 44. v. 5. 8. As we are still informed that some have fled the Countrey and some have subscrived for feare so no Pastors in our knowledge have gone to Court for the causes alleadged by you We doe not presume to judge of the Consciences of men and we wish you to judge more charitably of these reverend Prelates then ye doe The occasion of this present storme was pretended to be the introduction of the Bookes of Service and Canons and the high Commission These causes are now removed and yet the storme continueth so vehement as ye seeme to grant that the Bishops have just feares warranding their flight to save their persons which we judge to be too great violence for any such cause against persons in so sacred a calling 9. We shall assuredly by the grace of GOD still contribute as ye desire our prayers and all other means agreable to our consciences for extinguishing of the present combustion And for that effect every one of us shall secretly and humbly mourne before the LORD and shall search and trye our wayes and turne unto the Lord. And as we have already humbled our selves publickly with Fasting and Mourning for that effect so are we readie in time to come to doe the like when it shall be indicted or allowed by Authority according to the established order in this Kirke and Kingdome Yea also we are ready to joine with you in the late Covenant so soone as we shall receive satisfaction to our consciences concerning the lawfulnesse thereof which as we have protested before so doe we yet protest and professe 10. The Reasons which ye touch in your first Answere for proving that we might without just offence to any joine with you in subscriving the Covenant are sufficiently answered in our first Replye For First It is not yet decerned in a Nationall Assembly whether your Interpretation added to the old Covenant be in all points sound or unsound and therefore we have reason to think that this new Covenant is not substantially one with the old chiefly seeing it addeth to the old Covenant not onely your Interpretation of it but also a promise of forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles untill they be tryed in an Assembly and like-wise a Band of Mutuall Defence by force of Armes made without the KINGS privity and consent Secondly Your inference of Mutuall Defence against all persones whatsoever drawne from the words of the old Covenant is meerly invalide For nothing was pactioned or promised in the old Covenāt without the KINGS Majesty his privity but the Band of Mutuall Defence against all persons whatsoever in this your new Covenant is without the command or consent of the KING to whom only the Sword is given in this Kingdom immediatly by GOD. See to this purpose the words of KING Iames the sixth of blessed Memory in his Booke entituled The Law of free Monarchies in the English edition of his royall workes at London Anno 1616. Pag. 206. That which ye adde concerning the Generall Band is also little to the purpose for that Band had the KINGS warrand whereas his Majesty doeth now forbid your Covenant Thirdly Although the former Oath subscrived did appertain onely to the persons of the subscrivers all the dayes of their lives yet you have in your Interpretation extended the Obligation thereof to the present and succeeding Generations in this land without any warrand either from publick Lawes or from the words of the Oath it self which also is a substantiall Difference betwixt that Oath your late Covenant Whereas ye alleadge that

Commandements of our Superiours 45. Again ye say that when scandall of weak brethren may be feared the precept of Obedience is not obligatory in respect the thing commanded by our Superiours although it be in it self lawfull yet it becometh unexpedient in respect of the Scandall which may follow upon it Now say ye the ordinances of our Superiours are not obligatory when the things commanded by them are unexpedient We on the contrary say that when our Superiours require of us obedience to their lawfull commandements the precept of eschewing scandall is not obligatory in respect we ought not for Scandall causelesly taken omit necessary dueties which GOD in His Law requireth of us In which number we most justly doe reckon The duety of Obedience which we owe to the lawfull Commandements of our Superiours 46. As for that which ye say that when Scandall may be taken at the doing of the thing commanded then the thing commanded becommeth inexpedient and so ought not to be obeyed that ye be not more deceived by this errour we pray you marke that a thing comcomanded by our Superiours in Church or Policy may be two wayes inexpedient to wit either in respect of some particular Persons who through weaknesse or malice doe stumble at it or else in respect of the body in generall because it is contrary to Order Decency and Edification If the thing commanded be inexpedient the first way only we may indeed in such a case for eschewing the scandall of the weak forbear the practise of the thing commanded hîc nunc in some particular places and times providing alwise we doe this Without offence of our Superiours and without the scandal of others who by our forbearance may be made to vilipend the Authority of Lawes But we can not in such a case totally and absolutely deny obedience to a Law as we have already proven Neither is your Argument brought to the contrary valide in respect we ought more to look to the utilitie and benefite which the body of the Church may receive by the thing commanded and by our obedience to our Superioures then to the harme which some particular Persons may receive thereby 47. If the thing commanded be in our private judgement inexpedient the second way we ought not for that to deny obedience to the Lawes of the Church for when the inexpediency of a thing is questionable and probable Arguments may be brought pro and contrae concerning the expediencie of it we have sufficient warrand to practise it if the Church by her publick decree hath declared that she thinketh it expedient Your errour who are of the contrary minde is very dangerous and may prove most pernicious to the Church for it maketh the Church obnoxious to perpetuall Schisme and disconformity in matters of externall Policy in respect men ordinarily are divyded in judgement concerning the expediencie of these things Suppon then that in a Synode consisting of an hundreth Pastors threescore of them think this or that particular Ceremony to be expedient for the good of the Church and in respect of the plurality of their voices make an Act to be concluded for the establishing of it shall the remnant four●y who are of the contrary judgement deny obedience to the Act of the Synode because they are perswaded that the thing concluded is inexpedient and shal they by doing so rent the body of the Church Truely if we were all of your minde we should never have Peace nor Unity in this Church Ye will say perhaps that this our Argument is Popish and leadeth men to acquiesce without tryall or examination in the decrees of the Church We answere that in matters of faith the trueth whereof may be in●allibly concluded out of GODS word we ought not without tryall to acquiesce into the decrees of the Church And in this respect we dissent from the Papists who ascrive too much to the Authority of counsells as if their decrees were infallible But in matters of Policy if we be certaine that in their own nature they are indifferent and if the expediencie of them only be called in question seeing no certaine conclusion concerning their expediency can be infallibly drawn out of GODS word which hath not determined whether this or that particular Rite be agreable to order decency and edification we ought to acquiesoe into the decree or constitution of the Church although it be not of infallible Authority and that partly because it is impossible that otherwise we can agree in one conclusion concerning matters of this nature and partly because if we deny obedience to the decrees of the Church in such matters our disobedience shall prove far more unexpedient and hurtfull to the Church then our obedience can be 48. Seeing then whatsoever ye have hitherto said concerning the question proponed by us may be easily answered with a retortion of the Argument upon your selves that we may eschew all such Logomachie we must take some other course and try which of these two precepts is in it self of greater moment and obligation for thence we may collect which of these two precepts doeth obliedge us in the case foresaid the other giving place to it and not obliedging us at all in that case If ye say that the precept which forbiddeth us to doe that whereby our weak Brother may be scandalized is in it selfe more obligatory or doeth more strictly ty us to the obedience of it as being of greater moment ye must bring a solide reason for you which we think ye will hardly find We know ye say that the precept concerning Scandall is more obligatory and of greater moment because it concerneth the losse of the soule of a Brother But this reason is not valide first in respect our Brother if he be scandalized by our obedience to our superioures sinneth not by our default who doe obey for our carriage in giving obedience is such as may rather edifie our Brother Secondly the precept which forbiddeth disobedience concerneth the losse both of our own soules and of the soules of others who may be entysed to that sin by our denying obedience to the lawfull commandements of our superioures Thirdly if that precept of eschewing scandall causelesly taken doe so strictly obliedge us when our superioures require obedience of us it may happen that a man shall be in an inextricable perplexity not knowing whether he shall obey or deny obedience to the cōmandements of his superioures in respect he may fear the scandall of the weak whether he obey or deny obedience For as we said before many are most ready to be scandalized by our denying obedience to our superioures in thinges lawfull and otherwise expedient and that because we by nature are most unwilling to be curbed and to have our liberty restrained by the lawes of our superioures For this cause as Calvin judiciously noteth Instit. Lib. 2. Cap. 8. § 35. GOD to allure us to the duety of obedience to our superioures called all