authority viz. that where the Word of God is truly preach'd and the Sacraments rightly administred there is a true Church Mr. Baxter hath room enough for his large Charity to think they are all true Churches though Schismatical That is though they are made up of Sheep gone astray from their proper Folds to which they yet owe themselves and ought to return A Dialogue BETWIXT THE INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN About gathering of CHURCHES Taken out of a Book called the Grand Debate and Papers therein Printed as they were given in to the Committy of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Acommodation 1644. Printed in 1648. LONDON Printed for James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. TO THE Reader Good Reader PErhaps thou mayest censure me too severe with my Answerers in expposing this old difference to a publick review but why then did they give me so great an advantage and provoke me to take it in my own defense Why did they Scandalize the World and many of their own Friends too who are yet living Witnesses of that so notorious a contest by mincing the matter seeming shy to acknowledge that the then Presbyterians were against gathering new Churches out of the Parochial To say nothing of their opinion of Toleration For what Toleration as to our purpose could they that were Presbyterians be thought â—â— indulge who so stifly refused to allow it to their Independent Brethren particularly in the very point of gathering Churches In this following Dialogue you have no feigned disguise on either side but both speaking over again their own Sense and Reason and words throughout almost verbatim As they were given in by themselves to the Committee of the long Parliament as appears in the second part of the grand Debate published by Persons intrusted by both Parties By way of Introduction You need not be remembred that the Presbyterians were earnest for an establishment with Uniformity and did declare that the Members of particular Congregations do cohabit and live together within certain bounds and Precincts of a Parish p. 6. n. 9. The Independents not well satisfied moved for an Indulgence and the Dialague may be supposed to begin thus A DIALOGUE Betwixt the INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN Taken out of Papers given to the Committee of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Accomodations 1644. Printed 1648. Indep WE are not against your Rule and the establishment you desire onely we cannot in Conscionce be so confined And therefore we desire liberty to worship God in our own way by our selves Presh We are not altogether against an Indulgence but we would have none allowed the benefit of it but such as agree with us as to the substance of their Faith and Worship Indep Therefore you cannot deny it to us who thus agree with you Presh 1. But your desire plainly holds out a total separation As if our Churches were not to be communicated with in any thing which should argue Church-Communion and more could not be said or done against false Churches 2. It also plainly holds out the lawfulness of gathering Churches out of true Churches yea they add by way of aggravation the cause of our Reflecters mistake such true Churches as endeavour further to reform Whereof we are assured there is not the least hint of an Example in the Word of God 3. This liberty would pull down what the Parliament would set up and would give you a greater priviledge then we enjoy who are under the Rule of establishment 4. This would give countenance to a perpetual Schism and Division in the Church still drawing away from the Churches under the Rule c. and introduce all manner of confusion in Families where the Members are of several Churches Indep What liberty then are you contented to allow us that differ from you almost in nothing but matters of Government Presb. None may be allowed upon differences onely in matter of Government to withdraw Communion from us in things wherein they declare an agreement There may be no such indulgence granted to any as may constitute them in distinct Congregations as to those parts of worship where they can joyn in Communion with us Onely some expedient may be found to bear with them in the particulars wherein they cannot agree with us Indep What expedient Presb. Such as through scruple or error of Conscience cannot joyn to partaâ—e of the Lords Supper shall repair to the Minister and Elders for satisfaction in their Scruples which if they cannot receive they shall not be compelled to communicate Provided that in all other parts of worship they joyn with the Congregation in which they live and be under the Government of that Congregation So far you have in p. 18 19 20 c. Indep If this be all we must be pâ—ain with you We can't joyn with you without sin We would not liâ—ve without Ordinances And for the enjoyment of them for for our edâ—fiâ—cation we would joyn in another Congregation Yet so as not condemning those Churches we joyn not with as false but still preserving all Christian Communion with the Saints of the same body of the Church Catholick and joyn with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as we are able If this be called Schisme or the countenance of Schism it is more than we have yet learned p. 36. Is not this a very fair Plea It was once Independency And the Presbyterians then answer'd to it in every particular Indep We cannot without sin to us enjoy all the Ordinances of Christ and partake of all duties of worship as Members of that Congregation where our dwelling is And what would you have us do Presb. If you cannot in all yet partake in as many duties and ordinances as you can And let the Indulgence onely supply that wherein you cannot and not exempt you universally in that wherein you can But we desire you would speak freely and candidly Can you enjoy any one Ordinance in our Congregation as Members We should be glad to hear from you that you can be Members of that Congregation where your dwelling is p. 70. Indep But you know we cannot live without Ordinances for our edification Therefore for our spiritual good we may lawfully joyn in another Congregation Presb. 1. This will not follow upon your own Concession For you consess you can occasionally joyn with us without sin and why not constantly 2. Your Conscience may erre And the Church is no way bound to indulge a liberty then especially to the evident disturbance of her own peace 3. Whatever indulgence is granted let this be the boundary of it which is given by our Brethren themselves viz. that such as give no Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness such as have not used all means in faithfulness to know the mind of Christ such as do condemn those Churches which they joyn not with as
People that yet â—ontinue in one Parochial Communion Advice to our Conforming People WIll you also go away you Hold fast know we have the words of eternal life and whether can you go to mend your selves Consider the danger of breaking the Union and dissolving the constitution of our Parish Churches and hold fast the profession of your Faith without wavering nor forsaking the assembling your selves together as the manner of some is Your continuing hitherto with us declares you are satisfied with our Communion And for your Parish Ministers if they are such as they should be fail not to encourage them in the day of their distress as Children should do to their Parents If they are faulty endeavour in your places to reform or remove them if incorrigible that the Church may be no longer scandalized by them but be very tender of Separating from them Be your Ministers never so obnoxious your Separation is noâ— legal Remedy either for the Church or you nor do our Laws allow it Yea you have not a word from the old Non-Conformists or Presbyterians to warrant your going to separatâ— Congregations of another constitution though indeed they did allow of going to Neighbour Parishes where the Minister was very ignorant or wicked But if the Minister be pious and diligent though of very ordinary and mean gifts they do by no means allow an Ordinary and usual with drawing from his Ministry to hear those that are more able Are the People that separate of better Lives then you the fault is not in the Ministry by which they were also generally converted but in your selves I speak this to your shame It is left to you to recover the honour of of that means which they disparage by forsaking and you by prophaning Yet it is sufficiently observable that the Separation it self is blemish't with its peculiar Vices which you ought by oppositions to avoid Are they proud censorious Vices of the Separation jealous and rash in Judgement be ye humble candid and charitahle Are they partial and trousome to the Church and Neighbourhood be ye Catholick and as much as in you lies live peaceably with them and all men Are they guilty of Schism by breach of unity take you heed of being so by breach of Charity And by their new and strange devices to deride study how you may unite And seeing they will forsake you study you to kâ—ep closer one to another Yet what is or seems to be Their good imitate good and commendable in them if there be any virtue if there be any praâ—se among them think on these things and disdain not to be taught by your Adversaries Are they Zealous in their way do they love and adhere to and provide one for another are they strict and temperate Are they free from Vanity Ribaldry Riot and Blasphemy Are they Admirers of their Teachers Punctual and greedy observers of the times of their worship c. Be you so too and much more and covet earnestly the best gifts Thus labouring to redeem the Name and Reputation of the Church of England from the charge of a vain and debauch't Conversation under so excellent a Profession A PETITION AND ADVICE TO THE NON-CONFORMISTS 1. TO their Preachers if Preachers they would design to hear me with patience and charity and meekness of wisdom and not count me an Enemy who would onely tell them the truth in love Many of you are well known to me I should wrong you not to acknowledg you to be men of Parts and worth and such as are qualified to serve the Church in a more then ordinary manner and I know not that I ever said any thing when warmest in Argument undeserving that Charity of J. H. concering me who saith he upon Conviction will perhaps as soon as any be ready to thank God with us if a Door so effectual be opened that we may without offence and without Schism joyn our strength in mutual love and concord for the carrying on the great work of mans Salvation through the Nation Yet I have said so much against you that you will not easily believe I would flatter you 'T is enough if you can bear with me that I am not yet convinced but that the course you have taken is sinful and of dangerous consequence from which very perswasion onely I tooâ— all that heat that some complaiâ— of I am yet offended at your Seâ—paration but especially that yoâ— gather your Assemblâ—es at thâ— same time with the Temple-Worâ—ship and in such Places tooâ— where no exception lies againsâ— the Parish-Ministers Beyond all colour or pretence of Reason and all Allowance even of those that have hitherto Written in your defence And methinks suffer my plainness if there be indeed any Wisdom and Meekness in you if any love to to us if any care to the Church if any real desire to avoid the Crime and the charge of Schism it should be difficult to perswade you to alter your practice in that one particular You do not think the People Keep your Meetings at other tâ—mes would be the worse for our Felowship You do not bid Defiaâ—ce to it your selves or declare against the Parish-Constitution of our Churches or for a Total Separation If any thing of this nature be said of you you are offended Then think on 't seriously why you should generally so order your Meetings as that your Hearers are necessitated to leave our Assemblies If I may not deserve to be heard Whom will ye hearken to in this Point Shall we appeal Follow your Friends advice to those that would defend you and Write against me I am content follow but their Advice and Examples in this particular and you will oblige me never to trouble you more in this Matter Hear what the Authour of Sacrilegious P. 90. 91 c. Dâ—ssention c. saith If you lâ—ve where the Conformable Minister is faithful truly endeavouring the Salvation of his Flock I charge you in the â—ame of Christ do not onely if possible as much as in you lieth live in love familiarity peace with him but also do all that you can to maintain his honour and promote his work For all your Non-Conformity you are no better then he if you be not more charitable then he If you set your selves in a dividing way secretly to rejoyce at his disparagement and to draw as many from him as you can you are but destroyers of the Church of God Call your selves what you will I will call you destroyers if you are dividers Yea much that else would be your duty must be omitted to avoid Division The work of God the good of Souls the defense of the Protestant Religion against Papists require your utmost conjured strength And you are Betrayers of all these if you are Dividers Therefore go as often as you can to his Congregation and hold communion personally with him and lead the People with you Do not say now
we have an opportunity to do better it is unlawful to joyn with them that do worse For though it be not lawful to neglect your own duty and opportunity it is lawful for you by deed as well as word to shew your Christian Concord and Communion Therefore in Parishes where all may well hear the Parish Minister I would not have you without necessity Preach at the same hour as he doth but at some middle time that you may not seem to vie with him for Auditors nor to draw the People from him But let them go with you to hear him and after come and hear you or before And that he likes not this gathering of Churches very well whatever he had said in the defense by the Petition he would have us make for them That if possible upon the terms he had laid down they might be taken into the established Ministry if not yet tolerated as Lecturers under us in such Churches where the Ministers desire them And he hath my consent that either of these were rather to be admitted though it be with the loss of part of our profits then to hazard all as I fear you do by the present separation One thing I humbly renew for your most serious consideration whether it be not adviseable to instruct your Hearers in the lawfulness and convenience of their communicating with us at least sometimes and perswading them there unto both by your teachiâ—g and example lest by the constant opposite practice their hearts be so alienated from the Temple worship that when you would reduce them to it you shall find it beyond your power To the Non-Conforming People FOr you that are our People who are neither gone away already or are under temptation to leave us I have very little encouragement to trouble you with my advice though I shall not say of you as the Author lately quoted doth of the P. 118. Conformists in his humble Petition to them that Satan hath got so great advantage that the wisest man living is uncapable of speaking rightly to them without offence However suffer though it be a kind of penance to you yet suffer a word or two of Exhortatation which I shall commend with better Authority to you then mine own 1. Suffer the Arguments both Conform as far as you can from duty and Peace and unity and charity to prevail with you to conform as far as you can And in what you cannot labour for satisfaction and if that cannot be had use any allowed means for the gratifying your selves in such things wherein you cannot conform but do not separate more then you must needs Is not this reasonable and proper advice ask Mr. Baxier ask the Author of the Answer to my Book ask the old Non-Conformists yea I appeal to your own Breasts if you would but suffer your selves seriously and impartially to consider it For surely Division is not to be chosen for it self and there can be no reason for the use of the dangerous Physick of Separation and rending and tearing the body of the Church beyond necessity There are three Questions or Cases of Conscience that would be throughly canvas'd and resolv'd before yoâ— Separate 1. Whether we may ordinarily leave our own Parish Ministers to hear others 2. Whether such as could and did communicate with the Parish Churches before the liberty can have any tolerable reason to separate now 3. Whether such as say they cannot in Conscience joine with us in all things have any ground to leave us in those Parts of worship they can The first is answered by the Old Non-Conformists particularly by the grave Mr. Hildersham in these words If thy Pastor saith he be approved of by the Church Conscionable in his place unblameable in his life though of inferiour Parts take heed thou leave him not 1. He may be a true Minister though inferiour to many others Mat. 25. 15. Which Argument the Apostle useth to perswade all members to unity Eph. 4. 7. You are bound to love and reverence him and thank God for him 1 Cor. 6. 10. 1 Thes 5. 13. Rom. 10. 15. Luke 10. 16. 3. Doubtless thou maist profit by him if the fault be not in thy self 1 Cor. 12. 7. 14. 31. 4. Our profit depends not on Ministers gifts but on Gods blessing 1 Cor. 3. 5 6 7 8. 5. None may usually and ordinarily leave his own Pastour so qualified as before for 1. As it is Gods own Ordinance that every own Pastour should have his own Flock to attend and take heed unto Act. 14. 23. So it is Gods Ordinance that every one of Gods People should have a Pastor of his own to attend upon 1 Pet. 5. 3. Now he cannot be said to depend upon his Pastour's Ministry that doth ordinarily and usually leave it and go to another He onely maketh a right use of the benefit of hearing such as have more excellent gifts then his own Pastour as leaneth thereby to his own Pastour the better and to profit more by him 6. If thou leavest thine own Pastour onely with a desire to edifie thy self 1. Do it with his consent and leave 2. Acknowledge thou owest a duty to him as to thy Superiour in the things that belong to thy Soul 1. Thes 5. 11. 3. Thou art bound to seek his comfort and to give him all good encouragement that he may do his work with joy and cheerfulness Heb. 13. 17. Hildersham upon the 4 th of John 2. The Second Case is touching such of you as could and did â—ommunicate with us in our Parish worship before the liberty granted â—y the late Declaration And is whether they can have any toleraâ—le Reason except their Judgements be since changed to sepaâ—ate now That they cannot I â—ope I have made to appear sufâ—ciently in other parts but if â—y Reasons may not be thought worthy your Consideration yet mâ— thinks 't is not in considerable that there are but two Persons that have set themselves to answer me and they have both of them yielded in this point Though they seem to be a little too exceptious in lesser matters The Author of the Book called Sacrilegious desertion of the holy Ministry rebuked c. delivereth himself in the Case fully to our purpose in these words As far as I can promise P. 76. saith he we will judge of you no worse then we have done noâ— deny any Communion with you which we have used and can use without neglecting ouâ— own work As I constantlâ— Joyn in my Parish Church in Liturgy and Sacâ—aments so I hopâ— to do while I live if I live under as honest a Minister at duâ— times The Author of the short Reflections upon Toleration not to be P. 37. abused is my other publick Adversary let us hear him also Who are they saith he who separate from them where they can have Communion with them I do not know I wish we could say so too Presbyterians I believe will not
false as do not preserve all Christian Communion with the Saints nor joyn with them in all duties of worship so far as they are able shall not have the benefit of this indulgence And to the end that these words so far as they are able may not stand for a meer Cypher and signifie nothing let each man particularly declare in what ordinances he is able to joyn that so all total Separation may be prevented p. 70. Indep Though we shall not joyn with we will not condemn your Churches as false And this no rigid Separation p. 71. Presb. The condemning our Churches as false doth little extenuate the Separation For divers of the Brownists who have totally separated in former times have not condemned these Churches as false Though you do not pronounce an affirmative judgement against us your very separating is a tacit and practical condemning of our Churches if not as false yet as impure eousque as that in such Admistrations they cannot be by you as Members communicated with without sin Indep However though we cannot communicate with you as Members of your particular Congregations yet we will preserve all Christian Communion with you as Saints and Members of the Catholick Church Presb. This is as full a declining Communion with us as Churches as if we were false Churches p. 72. Indep If this be called Schism or the countenance of Schism it is more then we have yet learned either from the Scripture or any approved Author p. 73. Presb. It gives manifest countenance to perpetual Schâ—sm should this be allowed you Not that we think differences in Judgment in this or that point to be Schism or that every Inconformâ—ty unto every thing is Schism so as Communion be preserved Or that Separation from Idolotrous Communion ex se unlawful is Schism but 1. We find that you desire not onely that you may be free from communicating as Members in those Parishes where you dwell but also that you may have liberty to have Congregations of such persons who out of tenderness of Conscience cannot communicate with us but do voluntarily offer themselves to joyn in separate Congregations of another Communion Which Secession of our Members from us is a manifest rupture of our Societies into other and is therefore a Schism in the body And if the Apostle doth call those Divisions of the Church wherein Christians did not separate into diverse formed Congregations of several Communions in the Sacrament Schisms much more may such Separations as you desire be so called 2. We find it not alleaged as a Cause of your Separation either that our Churches are false or our Communion exâ—se unlawful but onely Scruple of Conscience that you cannot without sin as to you partake in all duties and enjoy all ordinances which is no Cause of separating nor doth it take off Causless Separation from being Schism which may arise from errours of Conscience as well as carnal and corrupt Reasons Therefore we conceive the Causes of Separation must be shewn to be such as ex Natura rei will bear it out which hath not yet been done nor we think can be 3. And now we desire you to shew out of Scripture and approved Authors what you have learned concerning Schism For the breaking off Members from their Churches which are lawfully constituted Churches and from Communion in Ordinances dispenfed according to Gods word without just and sufficient Cause ex natura rei to justifie such Secession and to joyn in other Congregations of separate Communion either because of Causless Scruple of their own Conscience or because of personal failings in the Officers or Members of the Congregation from which they separate hath been accounted Schism and the setting up Altare contra Altare And concurrently do approved Authors say and we likewise conceive that it is the Cause of the Separation which gives both name and thing to Schism For if the cause be unjust or insufficient according to the Rule of the Word of God let our Brethren tell us what such Separation is It is our â—arnest desire and Prayer that our Brethren might enjoy the Ordinances with the Peace of their Consciences and of the Church also or that they would rather deny themselves of their full liberty in every point then redeem it at the price of so much danger and disqâ—riet to the Churches of God p. 74 5 6 7. Indep The Ministers of the Parish Churches are not such as we can comfortably joyn with and sit down under Presh We do not believe that you mean that onely such should be allowed to gather into your Congregations who live under bad and unprofitable Ministers though that be the onely medium there used against our Reason Where the Ministry is without P. 84 85. just exception we refer it to your own Conscinces and to the practise of your Congregations to say how fit it is that the Members should ordinarily much less constantly seek the Ordinances elsewhere We long to know what Reformation of our Parishes will satisfie your Consciences or how this Kingdom may be made the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ better then by dividing it into several parts by the bounds of their dwellings that all who give up their Names to Christ may be taught and governed and have all the Ordinances administred among them suitable to their Conditions p. 102. Indep But it seems you would have us for ever to want the Lords Supper which is not to be endured p. 102. Presb. 1. Why may not some expedient satisfie you in this to prevent so great an evil as Separation 2. We may not do evil for any good end If a man should be brought to such a Streight as that either he must want the Lords Supper or separate from the Congregation whereof he is a Member he may here want the Ordinance during this Errour of his Conscience with less danger than to purchase it by a sinful separation 3. This is a strange and dangerous way of arguing which may open a gap to as many Divisions and Subdivisions in the Church as the Errours are unto which the minds of men are subject And if this be allow'd we desire you to consider how long not our Churches onely but your own or any other Churches in the World shall be free from uncurable unquietness Indep It must be a prejudice to the Church we are in if we separate from her in the Lords Supper And yet you would have us live under their Government whom we prejudice which seems unreasonable to us p. 104 Presb. If your Errours cause prejudice against you is it unreasonable for you to be under the Government of that Church which is prejudiced by you may you with good reason Scandalize the Church by Separation and the Church have no reason to govern you then prejudicating or scandalizing Errours are a Supersedeas to all Government We do not then wonder that Errours and perverse opinions so much abound it may be