the very challenging of such a Right which belongs only to the truly Catholic Church is a strong proof that She alone is that Church which hath a Right to challenge it and would prove her self a false Church if She did not challenge it But because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular Church I confidently believe that if the Eastern Church were united in one Body with the Western you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire Obedience to so great an Authority Prot. This I willingly acknowledg §. 32. Cath. Be pleased then to reflect on some Age when these two great Churches were united for example in the days of St. Gregory the Great Then there was a perfect agreement through the whole World excepting only the Societies of Ancient Heretics acknowledged for such by Protestants Then both Doctrine and Discipline was uniform every where What St. Gregory taught was accepted through the whole Church Yea those parts of his Writings which are most opposite to your Doctrines as his Dialogues c. have presently after his time been translated into the Greek tongue and with veneration received by that Church Whence will follow that what he hath taught us in his Writings touching Points of Religion and which you most mislike was then esteem'd true Catholic Doctrine Now what does St. Gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the Roman Church In all Controversies lately raised between Catholics and Protestants he is constantly and directly against Protestants This is so manifest that it is acknowledged by many learned Protestants who describing the particular Points of Religion professed by St. Gregory and St. Augustine the Monk sent by him to convert England name these Freewill Merit and Iustification of Works Pennance Satisfaction Purgatory Celibacy of Priests publick Invocation of Saints and Worshipping of them Veneration of Images Exorcisms Pardons Vows Monachism Transubstantiation Prayer for the Dead Oblation of Christ's Body and Blood for the Dead the Roman Bishop's Iurisdiction over all Churches Celebration of Mass Consecrations of Churches Altars Chalices Corporals and Fonts of Baptism Veneration of Relicks Sprinkling of Holy-Water Dedicating Churches to the Bones and Ashes of Saints Indulgencies to such as visit Churches on certain days Pilgrimages and in a word the whole Chaos of Popish Superstition as they are pleased to stile it So that Mr. Ascham affirms of our Apostle St. Augustine the Disciple of St. Gregory that He was the overthrower of true Religion and the establisher of all Popish Doctrines and another saith of him That he subjected England to the lust of Antichrist which Antichrist you must take for granted was St. Gregory and therefore after his death went undoubtedly to Hell there to receive his reward Thus evident Convictions forced them to confess that all the Doctrines of Faith now taught were then professed as Catholic Doctrines but gall and malice against the Church suggested such foul unseemly words to their Pens Notwithstanding Protestant Writers when not being engaged in controversie they have occasion to treat of St. Gregory himself they are not sparing in their Elogies of him such as these He was a holy and a learned Bishop He was by Name and indeed truly Great adorned with many and great endowments of Divine Grace and as he is often styled the mouth and shining light of our Lord. He was truly a pious man and for his Christian humility yet more to be praised From his Infancy being addicted to the studies of Piety he retired into a Monastery where shewing a particular sanctity of life and being wholly intent upon Prayer he drew the eyes of all men upon him He did so discharge the Pontifical Office that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him He was exceedingly renowned for Miracles c. Now me thinks Sir the consent of the Eastern and Western Churches under the Government of such a Prelate so versed as he was in holy Scripture witness his Sermons and Commentaries should be so prevalent with you as to make you suspect your own Reason if it suggests to you that the Religion professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous § 33. Prot. But why do you say that the Universal Church in the East and West was governd by Saint Gregory when he himself sharply condemned the Patriarch of Constantinople for assuming such a Title as Universal Bishop which he calls an Antichristian Title Cath. It was indeed a Title full of arrogance and therefore justly condemned by St. Gregory in the Notion in which he conceived it might be understood as if the Patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate Bishop in the Eastern Church For thence it would follow that all other Bishops were only his Substitutes acting by his commission and removeable by him at pleasure Whereas they claim a reception of their Order and Character immediately from Christ alone Such a new Title therefore it was that St. Gregory condemned in that Patriarch and abhorred to accept himself as plainly appears by his Epistles But yet that he had a Superintendence over the whole Church as Supreme Pastor thereof to receive and judge Appeals of Bishops from all Parts in causis majoribus to oblige all Prelates even Patriarchs to the Profession of the Faith established in Councils and the observance of the Churches Laws and to impose Ecclesiastical Censures on all Transgressors of them this St. Gregory challenged and to this the Prelates both of the Western and Eastern Churches also submitted as appears by many Epistles sent by him and Answers received from several Patriarchs and other Prelates in the East §. 34. Since therefore it is confessedly certain that the present Roman Church professes the same Religion which Saint Gregory taught and planted in England which the Eastern Church in those times approved without any contradiction and which is now condemned by Protestants it will evidently follow that in those few Points in which the present Eastern Churches quarrel with the Roman the said Eastern Churches only have been Innovators and consequently that the Roman Church that is all Churches united in subordination to the Prime Patriarch and Pastor still remains the Catholic Church and enjoys the same Authority which the Universal Church in and before St. Gregories days enjoyed So that all Christians who break from her Communion do thereby shew themselves Schismaticks and Self-condemned §. 35. I have purposely made choice to instance in the time of St. Gregory the Great because on the one side several Protestants impute the beginning of the Churches depravation principally to that Age and on the other side Almighty God as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that Age especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all Prophesies foreshewing the glory of the Catholic Church which is the Conversion of Nations from Heathenish Idolatry
a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
✚ I. Question WHY ARE YOU A CATHOLIC The ANSWER follows II. Question BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT An ANSWER Attempted in vain 1 Pet. 3. 15. Be ready always to give an Answer to every man that asketh you a Reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and reverence Writen by the Reverend Father S. C. Monk of the Holy Order of St. Benedict and of the English Congregation LONDON Printed in the Year MDCLXXXVI ✚ TO THE Christian Reader IT was in Obedience to the desire of an Honourable Friend that this following Discourse was written that it was confined to such narrow lounds and that it is now Published He thought it requisite that such Catholics as are not at leasure to read Volums of Controversies should be instructed how to give a rational Account to Modern Sectaries why they are Catholics and he thought also that to justifie such their Profession a long Discourse would not be necessary This occasioned the following Answer to the Question proposed in the Title which Answer if rational and satisfactory will prevent or rather determine all other particular Questions about Religion the debating of which furnishes the world with Books to fill great Libraries But what fate soever shall befal this Answer in the esteem of Readers certain it is that the method of it is unquestionably useful by which is shewed that the Controversie about the Church is first of all to be seriously debated because what Party soever shall be able to give convincing Proofs that their Church is the same or a true Member of the same Church which we believe in the Creed shall thereby evince that all accusations laid against her are false and groundless and all separation from her damnable And on the other side it will be to no purpose to examine the Tenets of a Church already prejudged to be a false Church that is to want the inseparable Marks of a true Church signifyed by these words in our Creeds One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church denoting Unity of Faith Sanctity of Discipline Universality and uninterrupted Succession of Teachers and Governors from the Apostles to be necessary Signs of a true Church Now for as much as regards the following Discourse if any one shall think fit to undertake a Reply to it he may please to take notice that unless he intend to make quarrels useless and endless the only proper Reply will be his Answer to another like Question which he may suppose to be proposed to him by a Catholic viz. How can a Protestant think himself safe in a Congregation which never was incorporated in any Church whatsoever existent before the pretended Reformation This Question if seriously and rationally resolved and especially if the Resolution of it be justifyed by Authorities of by us all approved Antient Catholic Doctors it will then only be esteemed of considerable force against this following Answer to the Question Why are you a Catholic Now in this renewed Impression the Author thought expedient that such a Second Question should be proposed as by a Catholic to a Protestant demanding reciprocally of him Why are you a Protestant To which Question an Answer is framed the most suitable to Protestants grounds that the Author could devise He is not ignorant that this fashion of writing Controversies Dialogue-wise is oft obnoxious to exceptions and not unjust suspicions of partiality and prevarication For indeed we sometimes see Dialogues in which the Authors who may make their pretended Adversaries to speak as they themselves please do put foolish Answers into their mouths and then laugh at them presuming thereby to have gained a Victory But such a poor shift as this the Author protests against The allegations against the Roman Church brought in by the Protestant are in the Authors opinion the most considerable that are to be found among Protestant Controvertists which allegations he is permitted also to deliver in a Stile for its sharpness becoming a Protestant now a la Mode True it is the Author could not possibly make him answer pertinently and directly to the Question But whose fault is that No such Answer with tolerable satisfaction as far as the Author could inform himself could be found in rerum natura Now if any Protestant Reader shall dislike the Author's introducing his Protestant sometimes relenting or convinced that some Catholic Doctrines are too oft falsly and maliciously represented by Adversaries the Authours excuse must be that he having according to his conscience demonstrated so much his duty was to shew his Adversary a rational honest man that is such a one as will be satisfyed with reason and indeed with no other is he willing to treat However if this do not content the Reader he may do well to frame a better Protestant Answer to the general Question Why are you a Protestant But except such his Answer be indeed precisely pertinent and proper to the clearing his Church from the Charge of Schism either by shewing that she is indeed a true Member incorporated into the Body of the Catholic Church believed in our Common Creed Or that she is innocent and not chargeable with Schism though she be not yea abhors to be so incorporated he would do much better to save his labour No other Answer can be pertinent No excursions into Invectives against any other Church or Churches will be at all to the purpose Except therefore the pretended Answer be qualifyed as hath been said he must give the present Author leave to protest against it as no Answer at all notwithstanding which Protestation the Protestant may and probably will take leave to think and proclaim it unanswerable Now the rather to invite him to undertake such a just though unusual and hitherto unpractised a Task the Author does here freely acknowledg that was a principal end of his Writing and Publishing this Discourse for the truth is the World has been too long and too much abused with impertinencies and malicious Buffoâ—ries to the perverting of Souls encrease of Atheism and shame of our Nation Another considerable Motive also of composing this short Discourse was a desire in the Author to take occasion to deliver briefly the Catholic Church's Doctrines as they are in themselves and freed from the curious fancies of School-men and misprision of Sectaries to the Glory of God and the good of Souls ✚ Why are you a CATHOLIC A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A PROTESTANT AND A CATHOLIC §. 1. Protestant WHY are you a Catholic Catholic Because I am a Christian and by the Rule of Christian Faith the Apostles Creed am obliged to believe the holy Catholic Church Prot. Did not you believe that Article before you was a Catholic Cath. I thought indeed at that time that I had believed it but I have found since that I only thought so Prot. It seems then you do not think that I believe this Article as well as you Cath. I am sure that by vertue of this Article you are not obliged to be
contrary sense and only self-love and selfe-esteem determine both the one and the other Can it then be prudence in any man to hazard Eternity upon his own sence of Scripture the half of which perhaps he never read Commonly a Text or two concludes every point controverted when perhaps there are twenty Texts unconsidered by the Person which would rectify the sence he gave to the former Is that Guide to be trusted which has seduced such infinite Multitudes opposing calumniating and hating one another All Mankind may be witness that this Private Light hath hitherto never been able to confute or undecieve one Sect. In a word is it not in effect an injurious blaspheming of the Goodness Wisdom and Omnipotence of God to affirm that he has obliged under penalty of damnation all Christians to unity of Faith in all necessary Doctrines and also that he hath promised to conserve his Church in this Unity to the end of the world and on the other side to affirm withal that the only Means appointed by him to produce this Unity should be a certain Means of destroying Unity and which if made use of by all Christians the gates of Hell would be too strong for him so that there would scarce be left a Church upon earth §. 16. Truly Sir I do not know through what Spectacles you look upon this principle of Protestancy which hath been indeed the constant Principle of all Ancient-Herities But to me it appears most horribly gastly and only fit to be acknowledged the invention of Lucifer the foul Spirit of Pride and contention who presents to unwary Christians once more this fruit of the Tree of the knowledg of good and evil to be aspired to by our own endeavors and contrary to Gods appointment Since therefore as hath been said there are but those two ways to arrive at the knowleg of Divine Mysteries contained in Scripture yet so contained as that the Texts in which they are contained are subject to be miss-understood viz. First A man 's own private Reason And Secondly Authority of Superiors by Gods appointment placed in his Church All the Reason I have enforces me to chuse this latter way because thereby I shall avoid inconstancy otherwise unavoidable as I am taught by St. Paul who sayes Eph. 4. 11 12 c. That therefore God placed in his Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers for the edification of the Body of Christ a Succession of which is to last till we all meet in the Unity of Faith c. This Almighty God did says he To the end we should not be like children wavering and carried about with every wind of Doctrine through the wickedness of men and cunning of such as would circumvent us with errour the only remedy whereof in the Apostles judgment is submission to Authority To which submission also I am obliged by an express command of God Obedite praepositis vestris c. Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that are set over you and submit your selves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account And Reason thus divinely enlightned obliging me to submit to Authority I should renounce the same Reason utterly if I should not prefer that Society which by an evident Succession from the foresaid Apostles and Pastors makes the best claim thereto yea which alone claims an Authority obliging the Conscience and that is the Catholics Church the Authority whereof is evidently the greatest in the world For though all divided Sects preume to contend with her for Truth of Doctrines challenging that to themselves yet there is not any one of them which dares assume to themselves that eminence of Authority which manifestly appears in her And you may know this Catholio Church from others because it only challengeth an universal and absolute not conditional Obedience and you may know the Sons of it by their professing to give to the Churches Authority such Obedience §. 17. Now Sir consider how agreeable to Gods goodness and wisdom how suitable to humane capacities how helpful to mens necessities is this way of grounding our Faith on Gods Word as interpreted by the Catholic Church The far greatest part of Christians are too weak to maintain Disputes yet God loves the Poor and Ignorant at least as well as he does the Rich and Learned and takes care to bring them to Happiness without Learning sharpness of wit curiosity and study of knowledg Consequently he has chalked out a way to Heaven in which the Ignorant and Simple may walk securely And in what other way can these walk but in that of obedience to Authority This doubtless is that way foretold by the Prophet Isa. 35. 8. saying in Christs Kingdom There shall be a high way and it shall be called a holy way No polluted person shall pass through it This shall be to Christians a streight way so that Fools shall not err in it Now have Sectaries found out this streight way in which Fools cannot err Sectaries I say who have framed a confused Labyrinth in which there are a thousand cross paths and windings where every one wanders as it were with a dark Lanthorn in his hand and either stumbles into or phantastically chuses such a path as at the present pleases him best and leaves it also when he thinks good not taking direction from any other or not much caring for such directions By this means we see how that not only Fools and Ignorant but even the most Judicious amongst Sectaries following their own light do walk all their lives in quite contrary ways yet all believing that God by the Scripture directs them §. 18. Manifest therefore it is that Gods way being only one holy streight High-way not any Sectaries but all and only Catholics have been by Almighty God brought into it In as much as they distrusting the dim Light of their own Reason for discerning the Verities of Faith contested borrow the Churches Light thus exercising Christian Humility in not presuming upon their own Abilities and Christian Obedience in submitting to the Guidance of those Teachers and Governors whom God hath placed over them and who are to give an account of their souls These Heavenly Virtues are and have always been equally practised by both Ignorant Catholics out of necessity and by the most Learned out of Duty Yea those glorious Lights of Gods Church the holy Fathers and ancient Doctors though they were Fathers and Doctors to others yet to the Church herself they were humble Children and Disciples learning only from her and teaching others only what they had learnt from her This surely is a streight High-way and a Holy way too and whil'st the most Simple among Catholicks walk in this way they have an incomparable advantage in light above the most Learned of those which trust to their private light For they are guided by all the lights that is by the whole Body of those which God hath constituted Teachers in his Church in all ages and
by consequence they are exempted from an Obligation of examining particular Controversies which their Teachers duty is to examine for them §. 19. Neither is it natural Reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent Authority before our own simple judgments but as hath been said a Divine Light also appearing in Scripture and in constant Ecclesiastical Tradition the best and safest Interpreter of Scripture There we find the Church called The Pillar and Ground of truth a City at one in it self and set upon a Hill which cannot be hid There we read That every Tongue which shall rise against her in Iudgment she shall condemn that Gentiles shall come to her light and Kings to the brightness of her Rising And that the nation and Kingdom which will not serve her shall perish There we shall find that the least Supream Tribunal on earth to determine Controversies amongst Christians is the Church whom whosoever will not hear is to be esteemed as a Heathen and a Publican such an unappealeable Authority has God established in this Church And by vertue of this Authority General Councils representing the whole Body of Church Governors challenge from all Christians a submission not only of Non-contradiction but also of internal Assent under Penalty of Anathema which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of Christs promises That he will lead his Church into all Truth Jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform Profession of Truth that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against her Mat. 16. 18. which Gates of Hell are by the interpretations of the Fathers Heresies §. 20. These irrefragable grounds from Prudence and Scripture have we Catholics for directing our Faith On the other side not one single Text of Scripture nay moreover not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy Fathers which may rationally incourage a Christian to prefer his own sence of Scripture before that of the Church whereas whole Books have been written by them of the Churches unity authority indefectibility and universality Now Sir who can resist who can hold out against such a Battery Prot. Well Sir how prevalent soever this Discourse may seem to you to be against us whom you style Schismatics it will prove of little advantage to you Roman Catholics for although we grant that there is but one Catholic Church out of which there is no Salvation yet this does not prove the Roman to be this Church the Roman I say which is but a particular Church and she being as we are perswaded guilty of teaching and practising many false Doctrines and manifold Superstitions and Idolatry we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her §. 21. Cath. Sir this is the ordinary artifice of your Protestant Writers when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of Heresie and Schism to impute to the Church many Errors and sinful Practices in which foresooth their tender consciences dare not joyn This they do to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from Schism till after a full discussion of all other Controversies touching differences about any particular Errors supposed to be in the Church which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand considering mens general incapacity and if undertaken by the Learned would scarce ever have an end But this is most unreasonable because though it were true that the Church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching Errors yet are Protestants justly and unanswerably charged with Schism in a high degree in as much as they remain divided not from the Roman only but all Patriarchal and all other Churches existent before their Separation So that if there be such a Crime as Schism they are manifestly guilty of it and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their Communion To make this charge good against them it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all Christians and of themselves also viz. That there always has been is and shall ever remain a Holy Catholic Church of Christ on Earth from which Separation upon any pretence whatsoever is damnable This Church therefore wheresoever it is was in being when they divided from the Roman and can they pretend that they are Members of this Church There is not a Society in the world older than theirs or other than the Roman Church with which they entertain any communion at all to whose consession of Faith they will subscribe and to whose Laws and Government they will submit but on the contrary condemn its Doctrines Laws and Government The consciousness of this forced the principal Patriarch of Schism Calvin to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world Now it being impossible for Protestants to excuse much less to justifie their manifest Schism to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular Points of Doctrine As long as the charge of Schisin subsists uncleared by them and this Schism grounded on pretended dangerous Errors in the Catholic Church being Schismatics they are Heretics too and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to when they would raise particular controversies since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates §. 22. Schism therefore in its lowest qualification considered only as disobedience to lawful Ecclesiastical Authority being even in the judgment of learned Protestants a most horrible Sin a tearing in pieces the Mystical Body of Christ There are one or two special Aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in Protestants I mean those Reformers abroad and antiently in Scotland Calvinists Presbyterians Lutherans Anabaptists c. They were once Members of the roman-catholic-Roman-Catholic-Church which they then esteemed to be that Church which they believed in the Creed It hapned that their Prime Patriarchs Luther Calvin Zwinglius c. having conceived some discontent either against the Governors or some prevailing party in that Church which obstructed their profits or against the Laws of it which restrained their lusts after Women grew angry and began to quarrel with the Church her self and to study to disgrace her for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her Doctrines Then Pride and revenge inspiring them against these they made objections yet not so oft against the Churche's own Doctrines as the Tenents of particular Catholick Writers and most oft they directed their most bitter Invectives against personal miscarriages for all which the Church must be answerable And after all this publishing Liberty from Laws which restrained Concupiscence they quickly found Favorites and Followers thus Sects were first composed But if there had been in any of them either Humility or Love of Peace in case they had been perswaded there had been Errors in the Church her self to which they could not subscribe they would not thereupon separate
abilities or blind passion against all Guides establish'd in Gods Church if Divine Revelation consent of Antiquity manifest Reason and even experience by outward Sensation may be fit to guide me I must not be a Protestant I must of necessity be a Roman Catholic For Divine Revelation interpreted also by consent of Fathers and Councils informs me that Christ hath established on Earth a visible Church which is one holy and Catholic the common Mother and only authentick Teacher of all Christians that this Church shall remain such to the end of the World and that whosoever is not a true faithful Member of this Church is thereby cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ and shall be eternally separated from Him Again evident Reason shews that no Person or Society can be esteemed a Member of any Church any other way than by believing its Doctrines and being subject to its Laws and Government In the third place the testimony of our Senses assures us that not any of our Modern Sects do assent to the Doctrines or are governed by the Laws of any Church at all and consequently not of the Catholic Church which had a being at their first pretended Reformation therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows that all the said Sects are manifestly guilty of Schism Moreover since the Roman is that Church of which the first Reformers once were Members and by reforming made a separation from it and since the same Church does constantly profess the same Doctrines which were once held by the Universal Body of Orthodox Christians and again since there is not any visible Church upon earth to which all marks of the true Church assigned in Scripture and by the Holy Fathers can be so applied and whereto the Antient Prophecies and the Promises of Christ have been so perfectly accomplished as the Roman it will evidently follow that the present Roman Catholic Church ought to be acknowledged that one Holy Catholic Church which we confess in the Apostles Creed and by consequence whatsoever Doctrines in opposition to the Faith professed in this Church are taught by Protestants they are thereby without any particular discussion legitimately prejudged to be formal Heresies Now Heresie and Schism being by all even by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves acknowledged most dreadfully wasting Crimes of which I cannot possibly be guilty whilst I adhere to the Roman Catholic Church nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its Communion I conceive I have without any necessity of engaging in particular Disputes given you rational Grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient Answer to the Question first proposed by you viz. Why are you a Catholic §. 40. And for a conclusion Sir give me leave to tell you that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the stigmata brands of Heresie and Schism by entring into an endless Dispute about particular Controversies to be stated out of Books For till you be able to shew a present Visible Orthodox Church the Governors and Teachers whereof are derived by a continual Succession from the Apostles which Church in all those Points for which you have separated from the Roman teaches as you do and either governs you or is governed by you Till this I say be done your busying your self about particular Disputes will never produce to you Peace of mind but rather encrease in you Pride and Malice against others Your first most necessary Care therefore must be to establish your self in such a Church as can oblige you to believe her for by no other way can you nor your Teachers avoid Self-condemnation as manifest Innovators There are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy Scriptures and Fathers to distinguish the true Catholic Church from Congregations of Hereticks and Schismaticks such are Unity Succession Universality Converting of Nations Miracles c. And these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the Church Now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you and not one but belongs to the Roman Catholic Church §. 41. When you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you all you can say is That you teach truth and that you duly administer the Sacraments that is you would prove your selves to be a true Church because you say you are a true Church for not the marks but the essence of a Church consists in teaching Truth c. But marks of his Church easily observable by all men were appointed by God to lead the Simple as well as the Learned to discover that Church which only teacheth Truth and duly administers his Sacraments Not any such marks do you pretend to shew And as for this your miscalled single Mark the Unlearned cannot possibly judg whether you do indeed teach Truth c. and the Learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg And though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach Truth c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of Schism but that you communicate with that one holy Catholic Church which you believe in the Creed it would notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you These things considered since I am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point I believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare according to the method observed here a tolerable general answer sufficient to vindicate your Church in case I should by way of exchange propose to you this Question Why are you a Protestant Prot. Judg not Sir too hastily Perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect In the mean time I thank you for your Charity And God willing I will seriously reflect on what hath been said Cath. Farewel Sir and if you think good cast your eyes upon this little bundel of Citations out of several ancient Holy Fathers of the Church who will tell you that upon the very same grounds which have been here discoursed on they were good Christians and Catholics Prot. If they tell me so I shall not easily contemn what they tell me Farewel ✚ ¶ TESTIMONIES of HOLY FATHERS regarding The Substance of the foregoing DISCOURSE §. 1. Of the Churches prepetual Existence Visibility c. OBscurius dixerunt Prophetaeâ—de Christo quam de Ecclesia Puto propterea The Prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning Christ than concerning the Church The reason hereof I conceive to be because they foresaw in Spirit that men would make divisions and parties and that they would not much dispute about Christ himself but that they would raise great contentions about the Church Therefore that was more plainly foretold and more openly prophecyed concerning which greater contentions would in succeeding times
be raised to the end a heavier judgment should befall those who saw the Church and yet fled out of it Quis numeret testimonia de Ecclesia toto Orbe terrarum diffusa Quis Who can number the testimonies given in Scripture touching the Church spread over the whole earth who can number them There are not in the whole world so many Heresies against the Church as there are Testimonies in the old Law for the Church What page there does not proclaim this what verse does not mention it All passages there cry out aloud for the Unity of our Lords Body for he has placed peace through the borders of Hierusalem Now thou O Heretick barkest against all these Testimonies And therefore that whch is written in the Apocalypse is justly verified in that City Without are dogs Thou barkest against these Testimonies From what Tribunal dost thou judg Thy Tribunal is the presumption of thine own heart It is a lofty but a ruinous Tribunal Exaltare super coelos Deus super omnem terram gloria tua Be thou exalted O God above the Heavens and thy Glory over all the earth My Bretheren we have not seen God exalted above the Heavens yet we believe it But we not only believe but we see his Glory exalted over all the Earth in his Church Now I beseech you observe what a madness it is which possesses Heretics They being cut off from the compacted Body of the Church of Christ and by holding a part being deprived of the whole will not communicate with the whole earth over which the glory of Christ is spread O Heretical Madness Thou believest with me that which thou doest not see and thou deniest that which both thou and I do see Thou believest with me that Christ is exalted above the Heavens which neither of us hath seen and thou deniest his glory over all the earth which we both see In sole posuit Tabernaculum suum He has placed his Tabernacle in the Sun that is in a place manifest to all His Tabernacle is his flesh His Tabernacle is his Church which is placed in the Sun not in the night but in the day Tanquam ille quem catechizamus quaereret diceret quo ergo signo If a Catechumen should be inquisitive and say But by what sign shall I being as yet a little one and unable clearly to discern the truth from so many errours by what mark I say shall I find the Church of Christ to believe which I am obliged by so many manifest predictions Hereto the Prophet as if he had a perfect knowledge of the Catechumens scruples answers teaching him that this is foretold to be the Church of Christ which is raised on high and apparent to all For she is the seat of his Glory For in regard of such doubts as may befal the simpler sort of Christians who may be seduced by crafty men from the Church so gloriously manifest our Lord providing a remedy saith A City which is set upon a mountain cannot be hid Christo tales maledicunt qui Those do blaspheme Christ who affirm that the Church hath perished from off the whole earth and remained only on Africa Geneva England Holland c. §. 2. Of the Catholic Churches Unity and of Schism §. 43. Una est Ecclesia quaecunque illa sit There is one only Church whichsoever that is of which it is written my dove my undesiled is but one she is the only one of her Mother neither can there be so many Churches as there are Shisms O this Position both the Schismatics Donatists and St. Augustin were agreed Perirem si essem departe Pauli I should perish eternally if I were of a party of which St. Paul was the leader How then shall I avoid perdition if I be of the party of Donatus of Luther Calvin Tindall c Quamvis Novatianus Though the Schismatic Novatian hath been put to death for the Faith yet he hath not been crowned Why not Crowned Because he died out of the peace concord and communion of the Church separated from that common Mother of whom whosoever will be a Martyr must be a Member We ought rather to endure any torments than consent to the dividing of Gods Church Since the Martyrdom to which we expose our selves by hindring a division of the Church is no less glorious then that which is suffered for refusing to Sacrifice to Idols Si in Navi pericula sunt If there be dangers to those who are ein the Ship there is certain drowning to those who are out of it In montem sanctum tuum Into his Holy Mountain His holy Mountain is his Holy Church This is the Mountain which according to the Vision of Daniel grew to this vastness from a small stone and breaks all the Kingdoms of the earth and which encreased in greatness till it filled the whole surface of the earth In this Mountain he was heard who said I cryed with my voice unto the Lord and he heard me from his holy Mountain Whosoever prays besides this Mountain let him not hope to be heard to eternal life Many are heard in many of their requests but let them not boast because they are heard The Devils were heard in their request to be sent into the Swine Let us desire to be heard to eternal life There cannot possibly be made any Reformation of such importance as the mischief of Schism is pernicious Nobiscum estis in Baptismo You Donatists are with us in Baptism in the Creed and in the other Sacrament of our Lord. But in the Spirit of Unity in the Bond of Peace and finally in the Catholic Church you are not with us Tenenda est nobis Christiana Religio Christian Religion is to be held by us and the Communion of that Church which is Catholic and is named Catholic not only by her children but also even by her enemies Fieri non potest It cannot possibly be that any one should have a just cause to separate his Communion from the Communion of the whole world Ut hanc omittam sapientiam Not to speak of that Wisdom which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom the consent of people and Nations keeps me the authority begun by miracles nourished by hope encreased by charity established by antiquity keeps me there A succession of Bishops from the Chair of St. Peter to whom our Lord after his Ascension committed his Sheep to be fed to the present pontificate keeps me there Lastly the very Name of Catholic keeps me there which name the Church alone among so many Heresies hath not without just reason possessed insomuch as though all Heretics are desirous to be called Catholics yet if a stranger asketh any of them where the Catholic Congregation meets not any of them has the boldness to shew him his own
to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
the Roman Empire to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions and yet Unity essential to the Church being always to be preserved which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church to take care that the common established Laws former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed to prevent any innovations in Doctrine and also to end Controversies among Catholics if any arise at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them by which all Schisms are prevented and also Heresies that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed and lastly to judg in causis majoribus when quarrels arise among Patriarks Metropolitans c. Thus stands the case and now I appeal to your own Conscience whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church And whether if you were appointed and also enabled to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is there must of necessity be a Government and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves For if as some among us pretend the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters and no degrees of authority among Bishops it could not possibly have happened that a few unarmed Bishops not assisted by Secular Power should so immediately after the Apostles have subdued such a world of Presbiters formerly supposed their equals to their Iurisdiction and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans Primate Patriarks and of all these to the Supream Pastor Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision is very much abated Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this to you formerly Rock of offence I may I suppose proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction Prot. No Sir You go too fast For though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope as has been acknowledged by General Councils and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons since I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs But your Church will not be contented with this for she will extend it also to Temporal matters even to the disposing of Kingdoms deposing of Princes absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it and as by Divine Right Cath. How do you ground such an assurance you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof because some of his Predecessors have challenged it when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due Prot. No truly especially if that Authority to which he pretended endangers the ruine of Kingdoms or the utter banishment of Peace every where For such an Authority I am sure was never established on earth by our Saviour who is the Prince of Peace And that which makes me assured hereof is this because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world he would have left in Scripture or Tradition most express proofs of such his will in a matter of that infinite importance whereas the quite contrary rather appears Cath. You say well But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him or to acknowledg the justice of it Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material But to rectify your mistake I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day and thence you may collect what must be required from you in case you are a Catholic Prot. You will much oblige me therein Cath. Then it cannot be denyed that besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign several Popes in former times have both Challenged and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires Which Iurisdiction if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings either obnoxious and unable to resist or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels Several examples hereof remain in our Records particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third But generally Princes when freed from such exigences have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times and cast our view on the present state of Christendom we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions that not any of them will permit Rescripts Bulls or Mandats from Rome though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs unless touching private inferior persons to be published and much less executed within their states till examined and approved in their respective Councils Nay more then this even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes have always been refused to
be admitted in France the Pope not only knowing but expresly allowing such refusal as appears by the Bull of Pope Clement the eight sent to King Henry the fourth at his reception into the Church and recited by Cardinal Perron in his Epistles in which Bull we find this Clause His Majesty shall effectually take order that the Council of Trent he published and admitted in all things Excepting only at your must earnest Supplication and Petition those things if there be any such which cannot be put in execution without a real disturbance of public tranquility The King of Spain likewise though believed to be more complyant with the Court of Rome being sollicited by the Pope to publish and admit the same Council in his Belgick Provinces though he willingly yielded thereto yet he did it not without this additional Clause adjoyned Touching the Regalities Rights Prerogatives and Preeminences of his Majesty his Vassals Estates and Subjects the Laycal Iurisdiction hitherto used the Right of Lay-Patronage the Right of Nomination Hearing of causes in the possessory matter of Benefices Tithes possessed or pretended to by Seculars c. in regard of all such things his Majesties Intention is that proceedings shall go on as hitherto they have done without changing any thing at all c. So necessarily scrupulous are Christian Princes to prevent the least diminution of their Temporal Rights and Priviledges More lately likewise when certain Authors of one Order published several Treatises in which they endeavoured to exalt to the height the Popes Iurisdiction Universal in Temporal affairs those Books were censured and condemned by many Catholic Universities and committed to the fire by Public Authority the Pope not being ignorant hereof And moreover which perhaps is yet more considerable the Superior General of the said Religious Order even in Rome it self published an Edict known to all Christendom by which he strictly forbad his Subjects under most heavy Censures to maintain such a Temporal Iurisdiction of the Pope either in Books Sermons or Disputations Now that which makes this so solemn a Prohibition of more weight is this that whereas the foresaid Authors earnestly contended to prove that all Christians were obliged to believe the Popes Right to such Authority as an Article of our Christian Faith the said General by publishing his Prohibitory Edict clearly shewed that he renounced the Belief of such a Doctrine For otherwise Who but a◠Antichrist would so severely under a penalty of Excommunication forbid the teaching or defending an Article of Faith And moreover in a General Chapter not long after assembled the said Prohibition was ratified by all Superiors of the same Order as their own Writers testifie Prot. I must needs confess that Christian Princes and Subjects too are much beholding to that Worthy General for his prudence and zeal to prevent occasions of tumults and Seditions Notwithstanding it seems to me that Princes are not yet secure for though the said Doctrine should cease to be esteemed an Article of Faith why may it not be defended as an Opinion at least Speculatively probable and if so a slender Probability will have force but too great to raise and foment Rebellions when discontents are multiplied among the people §. 66. Cath. You are much deceived Sir For besides that you may be sure that Princes will never permit their Authority to be rendred questionable the very pretending such a Doctrine to be only Probable is equivalently to grant that it is no Authority at all Since every one knows that a meer probable Title against a long established possession such as is that of Princes for their Temporal Soveraignty is in Law and Reason accounted no Title and consequently none who have any sence of Christianity will ever seek with the horrible Scandal of Religion to instill such a manifestly unjust incentive to Rebellion into the minds of Christians And now Sir I beseech you to consider things seriously and then judg with what injustice and cruelty our whole Religion and Church is condemned as teaching Treason and Rebellion and this only for a few private mens Writings so generally abhorred by our selves Prot. All I can say hereto is that for as much as concerns my self I will be no longer an accuser of your Church in this matter Proceed therefore if you please to the other following Points 4. Of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation §. 67. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine opposed by all Sectaries regards the Holy Eucharist Their rage against the former is indeed greater because interest is more concerned in it but a greater advantage for seducing the ignorant people they make of this because they permit them to judg of this most dreadful Mystery by their outward Senses which Catholics instructed by Holy Fathers tell them are not to be believed here In the Eucharist the first matter of Dispute and ground of the rest is the Catholic Doctrine touching the Real Presence of our Lords Body on the Altar after Consecration of the Symbole thus declared in the Council of Trent I prosess that in the most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is present truly and substantially the Body and the Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Iesus Christ And that there is made a Conversion of the whole Substance of the Bread into his Body and of the whole substance of the Wine into his Blood Which Conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation This Article of our Belief is to us solidly established on the Words of Institution THIS IS MY BODY which Words without any figurative explication are repeated alike by three Evangelists and the Apostle Saint Paul therefore we believe following universal Tradition that our Lord sincerely meant as he spake and because we believe so we are hated Prot. But how can you expect that we should assent hereto since our Senses contradict it §. 68. Cath. You cannot say however that our Senses are deceived for in this great Mystery they have a right perception of their proper Objects to wit Colour Extention Figure c. Neither I suppose will you say that the judgment which Reason from the Senses collects is always infallible For if so then for example our Saviour whilst living on earth should have been judged a meer Man And the Angels appearing to Lot and his daughters no Angels but meer men for so would Reason relying on the outward Senses have judged Prot. in these examples Divine Revelation expresly teaches the contrary Cath. Then if in the present case you were assured by Divine Revelation that God by a supernatural Power did on the Priests consecrating the Symbols produce a real Change of the Outward Elements into the Body and Blood of Christ you would believe God against your Senses Prot. I should no doubt §. 69. Cath. Can you have a greater assurance hereof then the express Words of Christ literally understood by the Constant Tradition of all Churches in all ages Prot. Such an assurance
truly would to me be sufficient Cath. Then since we are not met here to mannage a formal Dispute give me leave to desire you seriously to peruse what has passed very lately in Writings on this Argument between Monsieur Arnauld a Doctor of Sorbon and the most subtle of the Huguenot Ministers called Monsieur Claude There besides Testimonies of Antiquity you will find our Catholic Doctrine acknowledged by the Prime Bishops of Greece Muscovy Armenia and many other Oriental Sects who by their Attestations subscribed with their Names before Witnesses have professed that the Doctrine touching the Real Presence and Change of the Visible Elements into the very Body and Blood of Christ is the constant Doctrine of all their respective Congregations and that it has been so delivered to them by their Ancestors from the beginning Prot. Truly Sir if this appear to me I shall not trouble my self with Doubts or Objections from School Philosophy nor examine the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 How such a change is made which Examination hath been long since condemned by St. Cyrill of Alexandria but humbly submit my judgment and assent to what God has revealed as I do also in the Mysteries of the Blessed Trinity the Incarnation c. For indeed I find that the Doctrine touching the Holy Eucharist has from the beginning been delivered as a Mystery also incomprehensible by natural Reason §. 70. Cath. You may add hereto that even the Calvinists themselves though the most perverse Enemies to this Mystery yet afford a considerable Proof of it against themselves For seeing clearly the Tradition touching the Real Presence so fully attested in the Writings of the Holy Fathers and in Ancient Councils they even when they endeavour with most eagerness to oppose it oppose it in language counterfeiting that of Antiquity so ashamed are they to renounce both the sense and expressions too of the Primitive Church This may be observed not only in the Polemical Writings of Mestrezat Anbertin and others of their Champions but even in their Catechism and simple Confession of their Faith For there we read That our Saviour nourishes and quickens us with the substance of his Body and Blood That he is given us in the Sacrament according to his proper Substance And that though he be truly communicated to us both by Baptism and the Gospel Yet that is only in part and not entirely so that it seems in the Eucharist they receive him whole and entirely Moreover that the Body of the Lord Iesus in as much as it hath been once offered in Sacrifice to reconcile us to God it is now in the Eucharist given us to rectify us that we have part in that reconciliation § 71. And as for English Protestants the time was within mans memory when not only the Prelates of this Church without Huguenotical hypocrisy delivered their Belief of this Mystery in expressions very Catholic but his Majesties learned and wise Grand-Father giving the world an account of the Faith of that Church of which he was the Head delivers it thus We acknowledg a Presence of Christ in the Sacrament no less true then you Roman Catholics but we dare not determine the manner of it Neither truly dare we Catholics Thus learned Protestants wrote and spoke before this last worse then Zuinglian Reformation and new Rubrick since which time the English Church has permitted all fanatical sectaries to make her a brocher of all their frenzies and a justifier of Doctrines which devour her very vitals Prot. Enough of this Sir Be pleased now to proceed to the next Point 5. Of Adoration of Christ in the Holy Eucharist §. 72. Cath. The next controverted Doctrine regards the Adoration of Christ in the Holy Sacrament Concerning which the sum of the Churches Faith is comprized in this her Decision Whosoever shall say that Christ the only begotten Son of God ought not to be adored in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist with the Supream Worship Latria even external And that his Adorers are Idolaters let him be Anathema Now the Doctrine touching the Real Presence being once established will sufficiently justify this for certainly it is not only lawful but our Duty to adore Christ whereever he is truly present And consequently this Practice of Adoring our Lord in his Sacrament is by the same Universal Tradition delivered and ordained in all Publick Liturgies both of the Grecian and other Oriental Churches §. 73. But the great and too willing mistake of our Adversaries is that they impute to us the Adoration of the Visible Elements Whereas the proper Object of our Worship is not any Visible thing Nay we do not terminate our Worship percisely in the Body of Christ which we beleive invisibly present The proper Object of our worship is the Person of Christ God and Man veiled under the Visible Elements So that in case it should happen through some incapacity in the Minister or defect in the manner or matter that the Elements should not be effectually consecrated and yet we beleiving Christs Body to be Sacramentally present should so worship him in this indeed would be a circumstantial mistake but here would be no Idolatry nor indeed any fault in us the Errour being supposed undiscoverable by us The reason is because the Belief of the Presence of Christs Body is truly grounded on Divine Revelation and not a fond fancy such as was that of the Manicheans worshiping Christ as peculiarly present in the Sun or of the Isrealites conceiving God to be peculiarly present in the Calves at Bethel And to this you may see Daille yeilding his consent in his Apology for the Reformed Churches the eleventh Chapter It is observable with what strange and unreasonable partiality the Calvinists treat Catholics in this Point They give their judgment that there is no dangerous Venome in the Doctrine of the Lutherans touching this matter and therefore have Synodically granted them admission to their Cene which the Lutherans scorn Now the Lutherans profess the Real Presence of Christs Body together with the Bread and some of them acknowledg Adoration due to him there So that to a Calvinists conscience the same or a worse Doctrine held by a Sectary looses all its poyson it is only dangerous to believe what the Church teaches Yea those very Calvinists acknowledg also that if Christ be in such a special manner really present Adoration would be due to him Some Lutherans deny this But whether they affirm or deny any thing upon condition they will stay out of Gods Church they shall be welcome Brethren to Calvinists Prot Truly such a dis-ingenuous want of Honesty and such interessed Compliance is very justly to be condemned You may now proceed 6. Of the Sacrifice and Oblation of Christs Body on the Altar §. 74. Cath. The next Point with regard to the Holy Eucharist quarrelled at by Protestants is our Doctrine touching the Sacrifice of Christs Body on the Altar concerning which the summ
of the Churches Decision is as followeth I profess that in the Mass is offered to God a true proper and propitiatory Sacrifice for the Living and the dead By which Sacrifice that bloody Sacrifice performed once on the Cross is represented and the memory of it remains till the end of the world the saving vertue thereof is also applyed for the remission of those sins which are dayly commited by us All Catholics receive this Decision as it lyes As for School-men they according to their custom raise a world of unnecessary Disputes which are no where so multiplyed as on this incomprehensible Mystery of the Holy Eucharist But as many of their Questions seem no way necessary so no Catholics are obliged to their Decisions §. 75. Protestants set themselves against this Sacrifice upon a meer mistake of the Term which they will needs affirm to imply an Immolation and thereupon argue that the Roman Church manifestly contradicts the Authour of the Epistle to the Hebrews who affirms that Christ hath now once in the end of the world appeared to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself And that he was once offered to bear the sins of many and thence concludes the absolute Perfection of that one Sacrifice of Christ once offered which did not need be repeated as the Legal Sacrifices did But this pretended Contradiction will quickly vanish if we consider that though the Sacrifices made by Christ did accomplish all sorts of Sacrifices and Oblations in the Law yet the forementioned Divine Authour in a special manner compares it to that great Anniversary Sacrifice of general Propitiation in which after the killing of the beast the High Priest alone and only once every year carryed the Blood into the Holy of Holies and there sprinkled it before God In like manner did our Saviour after his bloody Sacrifice on the Cross ascending into Heaven by his own blood entered into the most Holy place having obtained eternal redemption for us Now these two Acts of Priesthood are by his commission in a sort repeated by his Servants whom he hath ordained Priests in his Church and who according to Saint Augustine's expression are propriissime Sacerdotes in a most proper Sence Sacrificing Priests For answerably to the Acts of Immolation their Sacrifice on the Altar is only Representative and Commemorative and expressed by Seperating the Body from the Blood Yet so that it is not barely a Sign of Christs death for that alone would not be sufficient to entitle it a Sacrifice but it also contains the Victim whose death is represented And again with regard to Christs offering and presenting to his Father his crucified Body in the most Holy place or Highest Heaven his Priests truly and properly present and Offer to Almighty God the same Body and Blood really present on the Holy Altar as a Propitiation for the Living and the Dead Which Propitiation is not at all injurious to that Propitiation and Eternal Redemption purchased for us by our Saviour since it receives all its virtue from his bloody Sacrifice being instituted for an Application of the said Redemption For thus also in an inferiour degree the same Propitiation is applyed to us by other Sacraments as Baptism Pennance and Absolution and Extream Unction yea also by the Word preached c. And thus much even the French Calvinists do acknowledge in their Cene as hath been shewed Now I desire you to judge what prejudice can come by the various applications of Christs Merits Prot. There seems to me now no such great difficulty in admitting a Relative Sacrifice and a proper Oblation Therefore you need not enlarge this Point any further 7. Of Communion under One Species §. 76. Cath. The last Subject of Protestants quarrels against the Church with relation to the Holy Eucharist is her Ordaining to the Laity Communion under one Species only Now it is acknowledged that as our Saviour instituted this Sacrament in both Species so for many ages together it was in public Communions received accordingly I say in Public Communions for in other private occasions as in Sickness at Sea and generally among the devout Inhabitants of Desarts it was otherwise yet these receiving in One Species only did not esteem themselves deprived of any vertue pertaining to the integrity of the Sacrament And the reason is because they generally believed as the Church has now declared that it is most true that as much is contained in each Species as under both for whole and entire Christ does exist under the Species of Bread and under every particle of that Species in like manner whole Christ does exist under the Species of Wine and under its parts when separated Upon this ground the Church without intending the least prejudice to her Children has thought fit for avoiding many inconveniences and irreverencies which did frequently occur by the negligence and confusion of such vast multitudes of Communicants receiving the Blood also that all excepting the Priest who celebrated should content themselves in Public Communions as from the beginning Christians did in Private with our Lords Body only under the Species of Bread which is not obnoxious to the like inconveniencies considering that hereby they should not be loosers of any part of the Blessing §. 77. This regards the Holy Eucharist considered as a Sacrament But as it is a Sacrifice both the Species are necessary to the constitution of it it being ordained to represent the Death of Christ by shedding his Blood Which representation is made by Consecreating and offering both the Body and Blood separatly Matters standing thus it concerns you much to consider whether this be a just cause of your Speration from the Catholic Church in which you might have been partaker truly and really of the precious Body of Christ whereas in Congregations divided from her you instead of the Body and Blood of our Saviour must content your self with a morsel of meer bread and a sup of wine Prot. I will by Gods assistance think seriously on this In the mean time you may proceed to the following Points 8. Of Sacramental Confession Pennance and Satisfaction §. 78. Cath. The next Catholic Doctrine severely censured by you as an invention of the Clergys ambition is the Obligation imposed by the Catholic Church on her subjects to Confess their Mortal sins and to submit to satisfactions for them according to this Canon Whosoever shall deny Sacramental Confession to have been instituted by Divine Law or to be necesary to Salvation or shall affirm that the manner of Confession secretly to the Priest alone which the Catholic Church from the beginning hath allways and still doth observe is disagreeing from the institution and command of Christ and that it is a humane invention Let him be Anathema This Duty of Confession of sins seems by this Canon referred to that Commission and Privilege given by our Saviour to his Apostles and their Successours Whose soever sins ye remit they are
think it reasonable to furnish our selves with such expedients as are proper to put us oft in mind of them which we therefore regard in a far other manner then we do such things as represent to us only indifferent Objects Is not this Sir suitable to Reason Prot. Truly it seems so to me Cath. Then I desire you to examine your self and tell me if whilst your thoughts are employed on vain or perhaps sinful objects one should on a sudden hold before your eyes a Crucifix containing the History of our Saviors Passion would not the fight thereof recal your mind to the contemplation of an Object more noble more heavenly to mediate on which would be very beneficial to you Prot. No doubt it would Cath. Again may not one glance of your eye thereon so refresh your Memory as in a moment to make you call to mind as much of the Story as perhaps the reading of a long Chapter in the Gospel would do Prot. That may be granted §. 94. Cath. May it not likewise have the same effect and be yet more helpful to ignorant persons who cannot read and have weak Memories Prot. It may doubtless §. 95. Cath. And are not such representations beside refreshing the memory proper also to raise in your mind holy affections of love and gratitude to our Saviour Prot. It is confessed But what is all this to worshiping or adoring a Crucifix or other Image Cath. Sir I desire you since these terms of Adoring and Worshiping in our common English are usually made to import the Supreme Honour due to God alone that you would not in imitation of your libelling Controvertists whose only aym is by any arts to render our Religion odious to unwary Readers make use of them in this argument But take the Churches own expression and call the respect we bear to Sacred Images and Relics Honour Reverence or Veneration Prot. I am Content §. 97. Cath. Then Sir give me leave to ask you Whether it is not another kind of special regard which we have to Sacred and Heavenly Objects from that we bear to profane as for example Can you think fit to do all the same things in a Church which you would have no Scruple to do in your house or in an unclean place Prot. No doubt a difference is to be made Cath. And would you not judg that person injurious to our Saviour or to his Blessed Mother who should deface spit upon or defile the Pictures of either of them And on the other side whether seeing another reverently kissing either of them you would not collect thereby that he bore respect to the glorious Persons represented Prot. Let all this be granted Cath. And would you call such a reverent behavior of the latter person Idolatry especially when he with the Church professes that he acknowledges no kind of virtue or Divinity in them for which they should be honoured or that any thing is to be beg'd of them or any trust to be put in them which acknowledgment the Church her self requires from him Prot. I confess I see there no Marks of Idolatry but on the contrary an express renouncing of it §. 98. Cath Well Sir since then Sacred things are otherwise to be regarded then common and profane and again since our Saviour and his Saints may receive testimonies of our Love and Duty as likewise of Hatred and Scorn by our very outward behaviour shewed to their Representations Moreover Since it is that by Representations we are put in mind of Persons and things highly conducing to our happiness and which we cannot without our great prejudice neglect or forget and lastly Since by them the ignorant also may very commodiously be instructed and likewise good affections may by them be raised in all our minds Would you rather forsake the Communion of the Church then with her acknowledg that due honour and Veneration is to be exhibited to them Prot. I have no Scruple to allow thus much Cath. Then surely you will have less scruple to allow the same Veneration to the very Bodies Members or other Relicks of Saints Prot. Be it acknowledged and proceed 13. Of Prayer for the Dead and Purgatory §. 99. Cath. In the next place we will consider what you object against the Churches Doctrine touching Prayer for the Dead which implyes a State in them alterable to the better by our Prayers Alms c. for them Which State is by the Church called Purgatory Now it seems to me a wonderful thing that you should quarrel with Gods Church so as to think Communion with her unlawful because she is charitable and compassionate to her fellow-members as she believes standing in great need of her assistance §. 100. Prot. That which we principally reprehend in this Practice is that your Church without any Warrant from Gods Word will impose this burthen on us Cath. If you had not dismembred that Book of Scripture which the Church once put into your hands you would have found this Duty of Prayer and offering Sacrifice for the faithful departed expresly commended and practised even by the Iewish Synagogue long before our Saviour came into this world So that your Argument is like that of your Patriarck Luther who could not find in Scripture Justification by Works after he had torn the Epistle of St. Iames out of his Book §. 101. Notwithstanding even in your Scripture you find that no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God Neither have you any the least ground to believe that Christians full of many unrepented imperfections are perfectly cleansed by Dying Therefore unless after Death there be a place where they may be purified you most cruelly thrust them without hope of redemption into Hell And this you do in contradiction to the greatest Cloud of Witnesses that I think ever gave testimony to any Divine Uerity For besides a world of passages sprinkled in the works of the Holy Fathers among whom some have written Books on purpose to enforce this Charitable Duty towards the Dead there never was any Church since Christ besides yours which in their Publick Liturgies did not employ their Devotions and Sacrifices for the comfort and assistance of their Dead Brethern Yea even your English Liturgy is accused by Presbiterians and Fanatics of the same criminal Charity §. 102. And as for the place it self in which we believe them to be detained stiled by the Church Purgatory what a deal of unnecessary trouble do your Controvertists give themselves in disputing against the fire of Purgatory and touching the Nature intention and duration of the pains suffered there none of which are defined or mentioned in the Churches Decision §. 103. Your partiality is likewise very unreasonable in this matter For Calvin is by you generally esteemed a Patriark of great Authority among all your Sects who notwithstanding assigns to the Souls of the Faithful after death a certain place out of Heaven in which they expect saith he the
fruition of Glory promised them so that all things remain in suspence until the coming of our Saviour to Iudgment Now this so tedious suspension and anxious expectation of an Object vehemently desired must needs be more grievous then a short suffering in Purgatory where probably such a delayed expectation makes the principal torment and where perhaps the sufferings of many less imperfect Souls may be less tormenting than some pains suffered in this life Yet because Calvin will not call this his fancied place Purgatory he is Orthodox and the Church only erroneous He is Orthodox teaching in a manner the very same Doctrine taught by the Church and yet men can have the conscience to forsake the Church that they may learn her Doctrine abroad in a Shismatioal Congregation Prot. Such partiality truly I cannot approve Cath. These are the Catholic Doctrines mentioned by you as evidently contradicting Scripture and invented to promote Ambition and Avarice in the Catholic Clergy And besides these other Points of Controversie there are which though not charged with such an imputation yet are esteemed by you of moment sufficient to drive you out of Gods Church Do you think good that we should take notice of these also Prot. Yes 14. Of Celibacy of Priests §. 104. Cath. The first then that I will mention shall be the Churches Ordinance touching Celibacy of Priests It is confessed by us that this is only an Ecclesiastical Constitution It is also confessed by the most eminent among you that if your Clergy would submit to such a Constitution Ecclesiastical affairs would be better ordered If they say that all men have not the Gift of Continence they may be told that in case any one of them wants this Gift why does he intrude himself into the Office of a Spiritual Pastor Who compels him thereto Yet withall the same person in his younger days had the Gift of Continence whilst he enjoyned a subsistence by a Fellowship in the University Does then his Approaching to the Altar expel that Gift or does Ordination make a wife necessary in these latter days only whereas never any former Christian Church not in Greece it self would permit any person after made a Priest to marry Even those very Councils forbad this which permitted marryed men to receive Priesthood If therefore there be among them a want of this Gift of Continence it is their own fault generally speaking they want it because they are unwilling to enjoy it and will not make use of Prayer Reading Abstinence Solitude and other means proper to continue it And will you Sir leave Gods Church because those whom God hath appointed to take care of your soul have not neither desire to have Wives Prot. Go on to the next Point 15. Of abstinence from flesh enjoyned in Fasting §. 105. Cath. As not in the former Constitution so neither in this by which the Church commands Abstinence from flesh on days of Fasting can you have any pretention to impute to our Church as we may to yours that she favors carnal affections In the former her Clergy imposed on themselves alone the burden of renouncing all even otherwise lawful satisfactions to the flesh And for this you who are nothing concern'd will be angry and forsake a Church because Mortification is practiced by the Pastors in it In this latter Ordinance she indeed I mean her Clergy restrain in some measure the appetites of the Layty but they do not in the mean time favour themselves If it were not good for our Souls to abate the intemperance of our Bodies Ecclesiastics would not afflict themselves by practising it And if it be good Laicks are too blame to find fault with it §. 106. However I cannot judge you so unreasonable as to joyn with your hot-headed Controvertists and Preachers who for these two Ordinances sake impute to our Church the teaching of the Doctrine of Devils in forbiding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats since it is manifest that these Heretics of whom Saint Paul prophesied and which appeared shortly after in the Church uttterly condemned Marriage in all as an abomination in it self and taught that all Creatures having life are composed of particles of the evil Deity and therefore to be had in execration Now Sir can you observe any affinity between these Doctrines and those of the Catholic Church teaching that Marriage is honourable in all who are called to it but yet that Virginity especially in persons consecrated to God is better And again that all Gods creatures are good and to be received with thanksgiving but yet on some few days when we are for the good of our Souls to subdue our carnal Lusts fermenting in our Bodies it is expedient to abstain from some more nourishing meats though otherwise in themselves lawful and good Prot. I am sufficiently perswaded Saint Paul never intended you in that Prophesie And now Sir it will not be necessary you should trouble your self about any other Points debated among us None of which as neither indeed the two last being of such moment as to oblige any one to break from any Churches Communion at all Since all the Doubts concerning them consist in this Whether a single Christian may safely judg himself wiser and holyer then the Church Cath. God Almighty establish in your heart a love of his Truth and Peace And now for a farewel give me leave to add a few considerations touching the general argument of both our Discourses Prot. I give it willingly §. 107. Cath. Then Sir you may remember how at our last meeting I told you that it was the common artifice of your Controvertists when they are charged with Schism to delay the examination of that most important Point till the Greek Calends that is till all other particular Controversies be debated to their satisfaction which will never be But now I must alter the expression and tell you it is not so much a voluntary artifice as pure necessity that put them and you upon that unreasonable Method §. 108. When a Catholic is examined why he is so an Answer is readily suggested to him that it concerns the safety of his Soul to be a member of that Church which from his Creed he learns to be Holy and Catholic and that the Roman is such having all the Marks by which the only true Church is characterized in Scripture He answers directly to the Question without comparing particular Tenents of his Church with those of other divided Congregations which requires much Study and learning beyond the ability of ordinary Catholics whereas the most simple are unquestionably perswaded of the Authority of their Church and that keeps them safe in it against all the captious Objections of Sectaries endeavouring to shake their Faith in particular Doctrines the justifying of which they leave to their Teachers and Governors §. 109. But a Protestant being examined Why for example he is Member of the Church of England it never enters into his