exterior Profession in which the Good are mixt with the Bad it follows that this Composition by what Name soever it is call'd shall always appear on the earth Now none can be assur'd of a Societies subsisting always and always in a visible State unless GOD has promis'd it His Promises regard then even this Mixture and not only the true Believers but with them all the Society in which they ought according to his Decrees always to appear By Consequence we must understand these Promises of JESVS CHRIST otherwise than Mr. Claude teaches The Promises of JESVS CHRIST respect not the Wicked alone nor were made for their sake if he said only this he would have Reason but these Promises which JESVS CHRIST made to his Faithful comprehend also the Wicked who are mixt with them When GOD by his Prophets promis'd the ancient People to give then plentiful Harvesh with the Corn he promis'd also the Chaff and to preserve the Harvest is to preserve the Chaff with the Corn. So to promise the Church and her eternal Duration into promise with the Elect the Wicked in the midst of whom GOD encloses them The wicked also in the Church are for the Just as the Chaff in the Harvest is for the Corn and as GOD promises not the Chaff either alone or for it self so he promises not the wicked either alone or for themselves But nevertheless all this Composition shall subsist in vertue of the divine Promise till the last separation when the Wicked as the Chaff shall be cast into the Fire that shall never be quench In the mean time JESVS CHRIST shall be always with the whole Composition keeping there in all the Exterior the sound Doctrin which he knows how to carry into the Interior even into the Hearts of those that live in the same manner as the Nourishment presented to our whole Body by the same way quickens only the Members which are dispos'd to receive it A second Objection of Mr. Claude's will fall by the same Principle He objects to me Man Ans 1. q. that in defining the Catholick Church mention'd in the Creed I speak only of the Church which is actually on earth instead of comprehending in it all the Elect which have been are and shall be and in fine with the holy Angels all the heavenly Jerusalem I have already answer'd him that I neither would nor was oblig'd to define the Church but in relation to our Subject and her Visibility But I add that in saying this according to Mr. Claude's own Principles I said all for according to him in the exterior Profession that is in what renders the Church visible may be markt the true Believers with whom all the Saints in what time and place soever they may be not excepting the holy Angels are united The Church which is on the Earth says Mr. Claude is one with that which is already gather'd in Heaven and with that which GOD will cause to spring up even to the end of the Generations all which three together make but one which is call'd the Vniversal Church GOD be prais'd when I shall have found the exterior Profession which renders the Church visible Mr. Claude has already told us that I shall have found the true Believers that is according to him the true Church actually present on earth and he now tells us that with this Church I shall by the same means have found both that which is already in Heaven and that which GOD will cause to grow up in all following Ages We need then only enquire after the Church which is on the earth and the exterior Profession which shews her to us being assur'd to have found there without enquiring any farther the Perfect Communion of Saints and the Society of all the Elect. Besides when under the Name of the Catholick Church I understood the Church which is upon the Earth I spake with all the Fathers They ordinarily joyn to the Title of Catholick Church that of spread over all the earth toto orbe diffusa To this Title of Catholick they joyn also the Title of Apostolick and thus is it put in the Nicene Creed where is seen the most authentical as well as the most perfect Interpretation of the Apostles Creed This Title of Apostolick makes part of the Churches Catholicity and shews us among other things that she is descended from the Apostles by the perpetual Succession of her Pastors and by the Episcopal Chairs establisht over all the earth All the Saints whose blessed Souls are with GOD were conceiv'd in this Church all those that are to come shall likewise be regenerated in it so that there shall never be any one who has not made an essential Part of this Body of which JESVS CHRIST is the Head For the Angels if we respect only the direct Signification of the Words they never made Part of this Church founded by the Apostles and spread over all the earth where she ought to make her Pilgrimage and thô JESVS CHRIST is their Head he is in a more particular manner that of the Faithful washt in his Blood and renew'd by his Word But the Angels thô united to JESVS CHRIST in another manner are our Brethren and are not Strangers to the Catholick Church of which on the contrary they are establisht after their manner Co-opperators and Ministers 'T is an evident Truth but with which I had nothing to do in this place 't is sufficient to remark in the Creed what our Fathers found there expresly and immediately signify'd by the word Catholick Church by adding to it the Title Apostolick so natural to her Catholicity and the Elegium of being spread over all the earth To know the Doctrin of thâ—â— Church is to know the Doctrin of all the Elect. There is seen in Heaven and in the Brightness of the Saints only what is believ'd in this Church and the Holy Angels who as the Apostle Saint Paul says Eph. iii. v. 10. have learnt by the Church such high Secrets of the Divine Wisdom respect her Beller Thus all being reduc'd as I have already said to the Visibility Mr. Claude will only make me lose Time and digress when he will have me treat here any thing else to make known this Catholick Church which is confess'd in the Creed The Thirteenth and last REFLEXION Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church I Have now nothing left to do but to exhort the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion and Mr. Claude himself if he will permit me to draw manifest Consequences from the Principles he has laid then they will no longer be able to resist the Truth and will remain convinc'd that there is no Salvation for them but in returning to the bosom of the Roman Church We have seen that Vid. Sup. XI Ref. p. 99. seq to verify the Promises of the Gospel Mr.
A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAUDE MINISTER OF CHARENTON CONCERNING The Authority of the CHURCH By JAMES BENIGNE BOSSUET Bishop of Meaux Councellor to the most Christian King and formerly Preceptor to the DAUPHIN First Almoner to the DAUPHINESS Faithfully done into English out of the French Original Publisht with Allowance LONDON Printed for Matthew Turner at the Lamb in High-Holbourn 1687. ADVERTISEMENT I Had no intent to publish either this Conference or the Instructions it was accompany'd with They both had for their Object the Conversion of a particular person and having wrought their Effect there was no obligation to make any farther noise about ' em But as I was not 〈◊〉 to publish the Recital of it so neither did I affectedly strive to keep conceal'd I gave a Copy to Mâ—demoiselle de Duras who requested it 〈…〉 but just 〈◊〉 I consented without difficulty to the communicating it to some Gentleâ—â—â— of the Pretended Reformed Religion that desir'd to see it because 't was thought it might be instrumental to their Conversion The same Motive 〈…〉 to impart it to some other of these Gentlemen either by my self or by the Interposition of Friends Thus it pass'd into several hand◠〈…〉 Copies taken than I knew of 〈◊〉 they were spread 〈◊〉 they were alter'd 〈…〉 the Relation I had made or turn'd it according to their 〈…〉 't was printed at Tholoze from a very corrupt 〈…〉 I can no longer forbear giving it to you as I had my self set it down with great Fidelity and Exactness At my coming forth from the Conference I related it entirely to the Duke and Dutchess of Richâ—lieu in the presence of the 〈◊〉 Tâ—stu The particular zeal they had for the Conversâ—â—â— of Mademoiselle de Duras made them desire me so to doâ— I had before 〈…〉 to them the precedent Conversations The next day I made the same Recital to some of my particular Friends amongst whom was the Bishop of Mirâ—poix I was full of the matter and related it naturally All those Gentlemen 〈◊〉 me to put it in writing whilst 't was fresh in my memory alledging several Reasons to perswade me that this Labor would not â—e 〈◊〉 I believâ—â— it 〈…〉 I was 〈◊〉 to write with the same swiftness which is usual when one 〈◊〉 dâ—wâ— facts that are present without troubling ones self about the Style and these Gentlemen observ'd in the written Narrative the same sinplicity they had discern'd in my recounting it by Word of Mouth Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledg'd my Report to be exactly true and I hope those that shall read it without 〈◊〉 will have the same Opinion of it Several Copies of my Relation being dispers'd as I have told you one 〈◊〉 into the hands of Mr. Claude as himself avâ—rs and he on his side together with an Answer to the Instructions I had particularly given Mademoiselle de Duras gave abroad a Relation of the Conference very different from this of mine To speak freely what I think his Relation is neither for his Credit nor minâ— We hold in it round about long Discourses languishing inâ—ipid and inconsequent enough 〈◊〉 Mr. Claude's Relation we often return back to what we had left without perceiving how we get 〈◊〉 again We did not act in that mannâ—r and our Dispute was consequential and close enough In this sort of Contests men naturally grow hot as in a kind of wrestling and so the sequel is more animated than the Beginnings Men try one another and if I so speak in the first Blows that are given when they have a little explain'd themselves when they think they have discover'd where each Party places the Difficulty and found as I may say one anothers weak sides all that follows is more lively and pressing Whether all this be as natural in Mr. Claude's Discourse as in mine the Reader shall be Judge As his is turn'd many will scarce believe but that it has been adjusted and trimm'd up on the perusal of mine But I will not stay upon these Reflexions 'T is with Discourses as with Pictures in which every one cannot discern what is Original and as I may say from the first hand Nor will I here make use of the odious Reproach of Insincerity One does not always so exactly remember either the things that were said or the Order in which they were deliver'd We often confound in our Minds our After-thoughts with what we indeed said in the Dispute and one is frequently found to have chang'd the Truth without any Design of lying What I shall say of Mr. Claude the same he may say of me Our Conversation was in private and neither of us can produce indifferent Witnesses thus every one will judge of the Truth of our Recitals according as himself is prepossess'd I pretend not to draw any Advantage from the Success of the Conference which was follow'd by the Conversion of Mademoiselle de Duras 't is a Work of GODs for which we ought to give him thanks 't is an Example for those that are well dispos'd but not an Argument for the Obstinate The Catholicks will look on this Change in one manner and the Pretended Reformed in another So that should Mr. Claude and I set our selves each of us to justify his Relation the Result would be only a Dispute with which the Publick has nothing to do And what great matter is it will the Reader say which the two had the better The Cause resides not in these two men who would appear extremely vain and so of little Credit if they would have every one whether Friends or Adversaries believe them equally 〈◊〉 their Word In these Altercations the best Course a prudent Reader can take is to search into the Bottom of the Matters and without regarding the personal Facts to consider the Doctrin laid down by each Party The Subject treated of in all this Relation is no less clear than important 'T is the Authority of the Church Our Adversaries make little account of this Dispute being always heard to say that we must come to the Bottom setting aside as an unnecessary Formality all the Arguments drawn from the Authority of the Church as if it were not an essential Part of the Bottom to examin by what Authority and what Means JESUS CHRIST would have Christians resolve themselves on the Disputes that should spring up in his Church Catholicks pretend that this Means is to hear the Church it self They pretend that a particular Member ought not to resolve but with the whole Body and that be hazards all when he resolves any other way They pretend that to know in what Church we ought to stay we need only know which it is that was never accus'd of being form'd by separating it self that was extant before all Separations from which all others have separated Without going forth of our House our very Parents will shew us this Church Deut. xxxii v. 7. Ask thy Father and he will shew thee thy Elders and they will
there was a Church before them from which they brake and against which they set up another Church No said he They corrupted it Ha Sir reply'd I What Difficulty is this Never any Hereticks separated but by corrupting some of the Churches Children and separating with them from the Church in which they had all been baptiz'd But in fine tell me Sir Was not the Sect of the Arians and that Church which is nam'd the Arian new If you mean Sir answered he That Arius was the first who spake against the Divinity of the Son of GOD 't is not true Origen before him and Justin Martyr said the same thing Ha Sir said I That a Martyr deny'd the Divinity of GGDs Son is what I shall never believe As to Origen you know that he is alledg'd both for and against it He is an ambiguous and suspected Author But Sir let us leave uncertain Facts And let us endeavour to find one about which both you and I may agree That Sect which after the Condemnation pronounc'd against Arius join'd with this excommunicated Priest and form'd a Church against the Church was it not new He could not but grant it To prove its Newness continu'd I was there any need of ascending up to the Apostles and could not one say to it Church separated from that other Church in which Arius was born and in which he receiv'd Baptism you were neither yesterday nor the day before One might said Mr. Claude May one not say as much of the Macedonian Church which deny'd the Divinity of the Holy Ghost of the Nestorians who divided JESUS CHRISTs Person of the Eutychians that confounded his two Natures and of the Pelagians who deny'd Original Sin and the Grace of JESUS CHRIST Might one not say to them without ascending up to the Apostles When you came into the World you found the Church baptizing Children unto Remission of Sins and praying for the Conversion of Sinners and Infidels What then all these Hereticks and all the rest whom you and we know oppugned was believ'd not only from the Apostles time but yesterday and the day before and at the time when these Heresiarchs came and they found the Church in this Belief But answer'd Mr. Claude There are two ways of establishing Error the one open and the other secret and insensible Stay Sir said I to him we ought to propose evident Facts which both Parties agree I do not agree this insensible way of establishing Error Ha Sir said he will you say That you shall find praying to Saints and Purgatory in the Apostles times No Sir answer'd I I will say nothing about them for you will not agree it and I will say such things as you may agree Deal in the same manner with me He that shall draw most solid Advantages from Facts granted by his Adversary will have a great Argument that the Truth is for him For 't is the Property of Truth to keep it self upon all sides and to condemn Error by Facts which Error it self acknowledges And since you mention Prayer to Saints you are sincere is it not true that Mr. Daillé grants us thirteen hundred Years Antiquity Thirteen hundred Years Sir answer'd he is not the whole time of the Church I agree it said I to him but in fine my Adversary grants me already thirteen hundred Years he gives me St. Gregory Nazianzen St. Basil St. Ambrose St. Hierom St. Chrysostom St. Augustin All these said Mr. Claude are but Men. Let them be Men as much as you please But in fine we have from our Adversaries Confession thirteen hundred Years for Invocation of Saints and Veneration of Relicks for these two things were joyn'd together as you know Mr. Daillé asserts And how much does Mr. Blondel grant for Prayer for the Dead 'T is true said Mr. Claude That this is the antientest Error of the Church Fourteen hundred Years Antiquity said I to him is what Mr. Blondel yields us I say not this to create a Prejudice for the Truth of our Doctrin that is not the matter in hand But I say it to shew That we are not without Defence upon these Examples of Errors insensibly spread since we already have by your Consent thirteen hundred and fourteen hundred Years Let us come then to evident Facts on which I may agree For as for you you agree That the Arians Nestorians Pelagians and in one word all Hereticks were establisht as I have said They found not any Church to which they united themselves They erected one which was separated from all the other Churches that then were This is certain Is it not manifest I expected Mr. Claude contradicted it not I thought not my self oblig'd to press him any farther upon a thing evident and already own'd Now said I to him how were the Orthodox Churches establisht When particular Persons and People for Example the Indians were converted found they not a Church already establisht to which they united themselves He acknowledg'd it Did you went I on find one in the whole World to which you join'd your selves Did you embrace the Greek the Armenian or the Ethiopian Church when you forsook the Roman Can we not mark you the precise Date of your Churches and say to all that Church to all that exterior Society in which you are Minister you were not yesterday But said Mr. Claude here were we not of this Church We went not out we were driven out of it We were Excommunicated in the Council of Trent Thus we went forth But we carried the Church with us What Discourse is this Sir said I to him If you had not been driven out would you have staid in it To what purpose then is that Command so often repeated amongst you Go forth of Babylon my People Tell me sincerely Would you have staid in the Church if she had not driven ye out No sure Sir said Mr. Claude To what purpose then answer'd I do you say here That you were driven out Because said he it is true And well Sir proceeded I it is true This is common to you be not displeas'd at what I am going to say this is common to you with all Hereticks The Church in which they receiv'd Baptism cast them forth Excommunicated them They would perhaps have willingly stay'd in it to corrupt and seduce but the Church cut them off And as to what you say That you were in this Church which cast you out and that you carry'd the Church with you what Heretick may not say as much 'T was not of Heathens that the Ancient Hereticks compos'd their Churches 't was of Christians bred in the Church You also have not form'd yours by amassing Mahometans I agree it But in this you do not outgo the Examples of the ancient Hereticks and they were all able to say as well as you That they were condemn'd by their Adversaries For they were not made to sit amongst the Judges when their Novelty was condemn'd But Sir reply'd Mr.
pass'd again over the Doubt in which one must be touching the Scripture if one doubted of the Churches Authority She said she never so much as thought that a Christian might doubt one moment of the Scripture and besides she perfectly understood that Mr. Claude rejecting the Name of Doubt acknowledg'd the Thing in other terms Which serv'd only to make appear how hard this Matter was both to think and say since being forc't to own it he thought not fit to do it in simple Terms For in fine not to know whether a thing be or no if it be not to Doubt is nothing It appear'd then clearly That the two Propositions which were in debate were establisht And I shew'd Mademoiselle de Duras in few words That her Church by believing two such strange Things had chang'd the whole Order of instructing GODs Children practis'd at all times in the Christian Church For this purpose I needed only repeat to her what she had heard me say and what she had heard Mr. Claude grant GOD nevertheless put in my heart something more express and I said to her as follows The Order of instructing GODs Children is to teach them before all things the Apostles Creed I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins and the rest As much as the Faithful believes in GOD the Father and in his Son JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe the Universal Church where the Father where the Son where the Holy Ghost is ador'd As much I say as he believes the Father so much does he believe the Church which makes Profession to believe that GOD the Father of JESUS CHRIST has adopted Children whom he has united to his Son As much as he believes in the Son so much does he believe the Church which he has assembled by his Blood which he has establisht by his Doctrin which he has founded on the Rock and against which he has promis'd that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe that Church to which the Holy Ghost was given for a Teacher And he that says I believe in GOD and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost Rom. X. v. 10. when he says I believe confesses With the heart he believeth unto Righteousness and with the mouth Confession is made unto Salvation as St. Paul says and he knows that the Faith he has is not a private Sentiment There is a Church a Society of Men which believes as he does 'T is the Universal Church which is neither here nor there neither at this time nor at another She is not confin'd to one only Country like the ancient Judaical Church nor is she to end as that was Dan. II. v. 44. C. 7. v. 14. and her Kingdom shall not pass to other People as 't is written in Daniel She is at all times and in all places and so dispers'd that whoever will come to her may She has no Interruption in her Succession for there is not any time when one cannot say I believe the Vniversal Church As there is not any time but one may say I believe in GOD the Father and in his Son and in the Holy Ghost This Church is Holy because all she teaches is holy because she teaches all the Doctrin which makes Saints that is all the Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST because she encloses all the Saints in her Unity And these Saints must not only be united in Spirit They are exteriorly united in the Communion of this Church and this is meant by the Communion of Saints In this Universal Church in this Communion of Saints is the Remission of Sins There is Baptism by which Sins are remitted there is the Ministery of the Keys by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on Earth Matt. xvi v. 19. John xx v. 23. is remitted or retained in Heaven Behold then in this Church an exterior Ministery which lasts as long as the Church that is to say always since this Church is believ'd at all times not as a thing which has been or must be but as a thing which actually is See then to what this Church is joyn'd and what is joyn'd to this Church She is joyn'd immediatly to the Holy Ghost which governs her I believe in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church To this Church is joyn'd the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Resurrection of the Flesh eternal Life Out of this Church there is neither Communion of Saints nor Remission of Sins nor Resurrection to eternal Life Behold the Faith of the Church establisht in the Creed It makes no mention of the Scripture Is it because it despises it GOD forbid You shall receive the Scripture from the Hands of the Church and because you never doubted of the Church you shall never doubt of the Scripture which the Church has receiv'd from GOD from JESUS CHRIST and from the Apostles which she always keeps as coming from that Source which she puts into the Hands of all the Faithful Methought this Doctrin truly Holy and Apostolical wrought the Effect it ought to work But there is said I one Word more 'T is what I said to Mr. Claude and I reduce it now to this most plain Argument which every one may equally understand I mean the Learned as the Ignorant and the private Person as the Pastor The baptiz'd Christian before he reads the holy Scripture can either make this Act of Faith I believe that this Word is inspir'd by GOD as I believe that GOD is or he cannot If he cannot he then doubts of it he is reduc'd to examin whether the Gospel is not a Fable But if he can make it by what means shall he do it The Holy Ghost shall put it in his Heart This is no Answer for it is agreed That Faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost The Question is concerning the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses and there can be no other but the Churches Authority Thus every Christian receives from the Church without examining this Scripture as a Writing inspir'd by GOD. Let us go a little farther Does the Church only give us the Holy Scripture in Paper the Bark of the Word the Body of the Letter No without doubt she gives us the Spirit that is the Sense of the Scripture For to give us the Scripture without the Sense is to give us a Body without a Soul a Letter which kills The Scripture without its lawful Interpretation the Scripture destitute of its natural Sense is a Knife to cut our Throats The Arian cut his Throat by the Scripture misunderstood so did the Nestorian so did the Pelagian GOD forbid then That the Church should give us only the Scripture without giving us the Sense of it She receiv'd them both together When she
of JESVS CHRIST Mr. Claude in all his Manuscript Answer but principally in the second and fourth Question will perswade me that I consider the Church as a Society meerly exterior constituted in its Essence by a single Profession of believing without believing indeed whose whole Nature and Essence consists in bare Exteriors and Appearances without reality whose Vnity is only an Vnity of Profession an exterior Vnity so that the interior is only in it by Accident and that thô there should be neither Faithful nor Just in it but that it should be wholly compos'd of Hypocrites it would not cease to be the true Church Behold indeed a frightful Idea of the Church and I wonder not that Mr. Claude has an horror of it it is also as far from my Mind and the Mind of all Catholicks as Heaven is from Hell and I know not how Mr. Claude could read my Instructions without seeing in them the clean contrary to what he imposes on me Since the Reader has now these Instructions before his Eyes I desire him to pass them over again in this Impression Vid. Sup. p. 6. He will find there indeed that 't is of the Essence of the Church to be visible by Preaching and by the Sacraments but he will find there also that the Elect and the Saints are the most noble Part of it that they are there sanctify'd that they are there regenerated often also by the ministery of the Reprobate ◠that they must not be consider'd as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of it He will find there Ibid. that 't is of the Essence of the Church because she is holy to teach always constantly and without varying an holy Doctrin but he will find that this holy Doctrin which she incessantly teaches continually brings forth Saints in her Vnity and that by this Doctrin she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD. Do they call this a bare Profession of JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin without reality and a meet Heap of Hypocrites He will find Sup. p. 7. seq that Hell cannot prevail against the visible and exterior Society of the Church but he will find also that 't is because it cannot prevail against the Elect who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church 'T is I say because it cannot prevail against the Elect that it cannot prevail against the Church which teaches them in which they confess the Gospel and receive the Sacraments Thus instead of believing that this Church which subsists eternally can according to our Principles subsist without the Elect 't is on the contrary seen that we consider the Elect as making the most essential Part and Strength of this Church He will find that 't is of the Essence of the Church till the general Resurrection Sup. p. 9 10. to have the Ecclesiastical Ministery which renders her visible but he will find also that the effect of this Ministery is to bring the Children of GOD to the perfect Stature of JESVS CHRIST that is to Perfection which after it has rendred them holy will render them glorious both in Body and Soul In fine he will find there the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST Sup. p. 11. and of the Faithful amongst themselves the interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us but at the same time the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church Whence I concluded Ibid. that 't is not only the Society of the Predestinate which shall subsist for ever but that 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which 〈◊〉 them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever 'T is seen by this that instead of making a Church whose Communion is of its own nature meerly exterior and interior only by Accident the Foundation of the Church is on the contrary the interior Communion of which the exterior Communion is the Mark and that the Effect of this Mark is to shew that the Children of GOD are kept and inclos'd under this Seal 'T is seen also that the Elect are the last End for which all is done in the Church and those whom all her Ministery ought principally to serve so that they make the most essential Part and as I may say the very Ground of the Church If then I have spoken more of the exterior Communion than of the interior Communion of the Church 't is plainly seen that this can be only for the Reason I have mention'd to wit that the Pretended Reformed being agreed with us that the Foundation as I may say of the Church is her interior Union I needed only establish the exterior the necessity of which these Gentlemen contest Thus when I said at first in my Instruction that the Church was the Society which confess'd the true Faith Mr. Claude ought to have understood that this Confession of the Mouth excluded not the Belief of the Heart but rather suppos'd it in the Living and essential part of the Church of which I spake not then because it was not the Question I had to propose and resolve To conclude from this Silence that I admitted no other Union essential to the Body of the Church but this exterior Union is the same as if one that should have undertaken to explain only those exterior Ligaments which keep human Bodies united on the outside and include as I may say in one and the same Continent with the living Members the Nails the Hair the peccant Humors and even the dead Members not yet cut off from the Body should be therefore made believe that he acknowledges no other Principle of Union and under this Pretence it should be said of him that according to this mans Principles there might be an human Body which should be only Hair Nails rotten Members and peccant Humors without having any thing living in effect This is what Mr. Claude does when he concludes from my Discourse that the Church of JESVS CHRIST may be only an Amass of wicked persons and Hypocrites But this will appear farther in what follows by Mr. 〈◊〉 own Principles 't is sufficient for me in this place to shew him that this Church meerly exterior which he call the Church of the Cardinals Bellarmin and du Perron and of M. de Candom is a Church that subsists only in his imagination and one may believe by his manner of judging my Sentiments that he no better understood those of these illustrious Cardinals The Tenth REFLEXION On the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies
Subterfuge for we have still an Argument left to overturn the whole pretended Reformation See it taken from the very Principles laid by themselves The word Church ought to be taken in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith as it is naturally taken in a Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion else this Confession of Faith would not be conformable as it pretends to the Holy Scripture Now in this Confession of Faith the word Church is taken for a visible Society this Proposition is acknowledg'd in the Synod of Gap as we just now saw 'T is thus then that the word Church is naturally taken in Holy Scripture and in the Creed for a visible Church and the Term Catholick or Vniversal put in the Creed Man Ans q. 1. as Mr. Claude confesses to distinguish the whole Body of the Church truly Christian spread over the whole Earth from all false Churches and all particular Churches instead of rendring the Church invisible makes her so much the more visible as it more visibly separates her from all false Churches and puts in her Bosom all the particular Churches so visible and so remarkable by their common Profession of Faith and their common Government The Eleventh REFLEXION On Mr. Claude's own acknowledging the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister BUT without disputing any farther we need only 〈◊〉 to Mr. Claude and 〈◊〉 what he grants us in his Manuscript Answer concerning the Churches perpetual Visibility And would to GOD I could here transcribe all this Work There would be seen in it many things very favourable to our Doctrin which I cannot well make understood till it shall be publick But 't is not for me to publish it and I am contend to transcribe at length forasmuch as it is necessary the Passages you are going to see such as I found them in the Duke of Chevreuses Manuscript own'd as I have said by Mr. Claude himself Now if he 〈◊〉 found to speak of the Church after a manner new in the 〈…〉 this mâ—st not be wondred at for two Reasons The first because 't is true he has taught in a manner the same Doctrin in his other 〈◊〉 thâ— he has 〈◊〉 explicated it more fully and 〈◊〉 order thâ—â—â— over The second because he pretends to say nothing new a 〈◊〉 we ought to rejoyce at there being nothing more desirable 〈◊〉 to see the Number of the Principles and Articles on which we may agree increase Let us enter then with all our heart into this 〈◊〉 Design let us 〈◊〉 in what Mr. Claude agrees with us and let us reâ—â—â—â— his Doctrin in the 〈◊〉 Order thâ—â— he 〈◊〉 it in his third and fourth Question and afterwards in his eleven Consequences What I find at first is that 't is manifest that thâ— the 〈◊〉 Church be mixt with the 〈◊〉 ends and 〈◊〉 Confession 〈◊〉 ceases not to be visible in the mixture as the good 〈◊〉 with the Three in one and the 〈◊〉 Fields and as the good 〈◊〉 with the 〈◊〉 in one and the same 〈◊〉 This goes well let no proceed This Mixture hinders indeed the just Discernment of Persons but it hinders not the Discernment or Distinction of the Orders of Persons even with certainty We know not certainly who are in particular true Believers nor who are Hypocrites but we know certainly that there are true Believers as there are Hypocrites which is sufficient to make the Visibility of the true Church I hear this with joy assuredly we shall advance Mr. Claude gives it us already for manifest that there shall be always a visible Body of which one may say There are the true Believers I continue to read his Answer and I find that he blames me for imputing to the Pretended Reformed that they believe not the Body in which GOD has plac'd according to St. Paul some Apostles some Teachers some Pastors and the rest to be the Church of JESVS CHRIST How glad am I to be reprehended provided we advance It is then manifest that the Body of JESVS CHRIST which is his Church shall always be compos'd of Pastors of Teachers of Preachers and also of People it is then consequently always very visible and the Succession of the Pastors as well as that of the People ought to be manifest in it Mr. Claude confirms here his Discourse by a passage of Mr. Mestresat who determins that we must not seek the Church of GOD out of the Ministery and the Word So much the better and I am glad that Mr. Claude finds in his Church many Followers of this Doctrin I was afraid Vid. Sup. p. 5. that the Ministers would not find the visible Church in this Passage of St. Paul to the Ephesians where the Church is propos'd to us without Spot and without Blemish and I had set my self to prove that this Church describ'd by St. Paul was the visible Church because it was washt by Baptism and by the Wordâ— Mr. Claude enters at first into my Sentiment He says that in this passage we must understand indeed the Church which is already in Heaven but also the visible Church whichis on the earth as making together but one and the same Body and he cites here also Mr. Mestresat I receive this Doctrin and if any of our Reformed be it Mr. Claude himself ever objects to me that I must not so much rely on the Churches Visibility since there is at least a Part of this Church which is invisible that is to say that which is in Heaven I will answer that this ought not to trouble us since that in fine by this Doctrin of Mr. Mestresat and Mr. Claude being in communion with the visible Part of the Church I am sure to be so also with the invisible Part which is already in Heaven with JESVS CHRIST so that 't is very certain that all is reduc'd in fine to the Visibility Mr. Claude passes thence to the Objections that may be made and he decides at first that the Visibility of the Church is a Visibility of Ministery He must then at last as he acknowledges in the Church a perpetual Visibility come to shew us a Succession in the Ministery and in one word a Train of lawful Pastors He objects to himself that the Ministery is common to the Good and the Bad whence it seems one might conclude against his Doctrin that Good and Bad compose the Church And he Answers that if the use the Ministery is common to Good and Bad this is only by accident and thrô the Fraud of the Enemy that of right it belongs only to the true Believers and that the supernatural Destination is only for them All this is clear except this Expression the Ministery of right belongs only to the true Believers For as one might understand by this that none but true Believers are lawfull Pastors one might fall into the Inconvenience of being to examin every one in particular whether the Pastors are indeed true Believers
Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds lâ—st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto theâ— as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring
carefully discern which is the true Church and that it is the Company of the Faithful which agree to follow GODs Word and the pure Religion that depends on it Whence they conclude Article XXVIII That where GODs Word is not received nor any Profession made of subjecting themselves to it and where there is no use of the Sacraments one cannot to speak properly judge that there is a Church 'T is evident by all these Passages and by the common Practice of the Pretended Reformed that the proper natural and generally us'd Signification of the Word Church is to take it for the exterior Society of GODs People amongst whom thô there be found some Hypocrites and Reprobates their Malice say they cannot efface the Title of the Church Article XXVII That is The Hypocrites mix'd in the Exterior Society of GODs People cannot take from it the Title of the true Church provided it be always vested with these exterior Marks the making Profession of GODs Word and the Use of the Sacraments as is said in Article XXVIII This is the Acceptation of the Word Church when we speak simply naturally and properly without Contention or Dispute and if this be the ordinary manner of taking this Word we have reason to say that 't was in this Sense the Apostles made use of it in their Creed where they were to speak in the most ordinary and simple manner as being to inclose in few Words the Confession of the Fundamentals of the Faith In effect this Word Church has in the common Discourse of all Christians been taken to signify this exterior Society of GODs People When by this Word Church is intended the Society of the Predestinate 't is so express'd and they say the Church of the Predestinate When by this Word is meant the Assembly and Church of the First-born Heb. xii v. 23. which are written in Heaven 't is expresly nam'd as we see in St. Paul He takes here the Word Church in a less used Signification for the City of the Living GOD the Heavenly Jerusalem where is an innumerable company of Angels and Spirits of just Men made perfect that is for Heaven where the holy Souls are gathered together Wherefore he adds a word to mark out this Church that is the Church of the First-born who have preceded their Brethren in Glory But when we use the word Church simply without adding any thing the common Practice of all Christians not excepting the pretended Reformed themselves takes it for to signify the Assembly the Society the Communion of those that confess the true Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST And whence proceeds this Custom of all Christians but from the Holy Scripture where we see in effect the word Church commonly taken in this Sense so that this cannot be deny'd to be the ordinary and natural Signification of this Word The word Ecclesia which we render Church originally signifies an Assembly and was principally attributed to the Assemblies heretofore held by the People for the discussing of publick Affairs And this word is us'd in this Sense in the nineteenth Chapter of the Acts when the People of Ephesus were assembled in Fury against St. Paul Act. XIX v. 32. v. 39. v. 40. the Assembly Ecclesia was confus'd And again If ye enquire any thing concerning other Matters it shall be determin'd in a lawful Assembly Ecclesia And in fine When he had thus spoken he dismiss'd the Assembly Ecclesiam This was the use of the word Ecclesia Church amongst the Greeks and in Gentilism The Jews and Christians afterwards made use of it to signify the Assembly the Society the Community of GODs People which makes Profession to serve him There is none but knows that famous Version of the Seventy who translated the old Testament into Greek some Ages before the coming of JESUS CHRIST Of above fifty Passages where this Word is found to be made use of in their Translation there is not any one in which it is not taken for some visible Assembly and very few in which it is not taken for the exterior Society of GODs People In this sense also St. Stephen makes use of it when he says that Moses was in the Church in the Wilderness Acts VII v. 38. with the Angel which spake to him calling by this name Church according to the Usage receiv'd amongst the Jews the visible Society of GODs People The Christians took this word from the Jews and kept it in the same Sense using it to signify the Assembly of those that confess'd JESUS CHRIST and made Profession of his Doctrine This is what is simply call'd the Church or the Church of GOD and JESUS CHRIST And of above an hundred Passages where this word is made use of in the New Testament there are scarce two or three where this Signification is contested by the Ministers and even in the Places where they contest it 't is manifest they do it without reason For Example they will not have this place of St. Paul where he says Eph. V. v. 27. that JESVS CHRIST presented to himself a glorious Church not having Spot or Wrinkle or any such thing but that it is holy and without Blemish This Place I say they will not have it possible to be understood of the visible Church nor yet of the Church on Earth because the Church so consider'd is so far from being without Blemish that it stands in daily need of this Prayer Forgive us our Sins And I say on the contrary that to affirm this glorious and unspotted Church is not the visible Church is manifestly to contradict the Apostle For see v. 25 26. of what Church St. Paul speaks 'T is of that which JESVS CHRIST loved and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word This Church washt in Water and purify'd by Baptism this Church sanctify'd by the word of Life whether by that of Preaching or by that which is made use of in the Sacraments this Church is without doubt the visible Church The holy Society of the Predestinate is not excluded from it GOD forbid They are the most noble part of it but they are compris'd in this whole They are there instructed by the Word they are there purify'd by Baptism and often also some of the Reprobate are employ'd in these Ministeries They must then be consider'd in this Passage not as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of this exterior Society 'T is this Society which the Apostle calls the Church JESUS CHRIST without doubt loves it for he has given it Baptism he has shed his Blood to assemble it there is not any one either call'd justify'd or baptiz'd in this Church who is not called justify'd and baptiz'd in the Name and by the Merits of JESUS CHRIST This Church is glorious because she glorifies GOD because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of JESUS CHRISTs Gospel
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
Claude we agree not this Novelty What is in the Scripture is not new Patience Sir I beseech you said I to him None of the Ancient Hereticks agreed the Novelty of their Doctrin they all alledg'd the Holy Scripture for themselves But there was one Novelty which they could not deny to wit That the Body of their Church was not yesterday and you granted it And well in fine said Mr. Claude if the Arians if the Nestorians if the Pelagians had been right at the Bottom they would not have been to blame in their Proceeding To blame or not said I to him is not Sir the Bottom of the Question But it still continues evident That you have the same Proceeding with them the same Conduct the same Defences in a word That in forming your Church you have done as all the Hereticks did and we do what all the Orthodox have done Every one may judg in his Conscience which he had rather resemble and I have no more to say Mr. Claude was not silent on this occasion but told me That this Argument was excellent in Favor of the Jews and Pagans and that they might maintain their Cause by the Reason I made use of Let us see said I to him Sir and remember that you promise us the same Argument The same answer'd he without doubt The Jews and Pagans upbraided the Christians with their newness you know it The Writings of Celsus and so many others are Proofs of it I agree it said I to him and is this all And 't was true proceeded he That Christianity was new if we regard it in the State immediately preceding What said I to him when JESUS CHRIST began to preach could they say to him as I do to you That in the Church he was born in there was yesterday no mention of him non his Coming What then was St. John Baptist Anna the Prophetess Simeon the Wise Men and the Priests consulted by Herod when they answer'd him That the Place of his Birth was Bethlehem Was there any one Moment when CHRIST was not expected in the Church where he was born and so well expected that the Jews expect him still 'T is very true Sir That there was a Necessity this Novelty should once be seen to happen and this Change by CHRIST expected at CHRISTs Coming But JESUS CHRIST is not therefore new Heb. xiii v. 8. He is the same yesterday to day and for ever 'T is true answer'd Mr. Claude but the Synagogue agreed not That JESUS was the CHRIST But reply'd I The Synagogue condemn'd not St. John Baptist but the Synagogue heard without contradicting them the Wise Men Simeon and Anna. JESUS CHRIST gather'd in the Synagogue the then true Church the Children of GOD which it contain'd The Synagogue at last condemn'd him But JESUS CHRIST had already founded his Church He gave it its last Form presently after his Death and the new People follow'd the old without any Interruption These are undeniable Truths And for what concerns Paganism 't is true the Pagans upbraided the Christians with their Newness But what did the Christians answer Did they not shew That the Jews always believ'd the same GOD which the Christians ador'd and expected the same CHRIST That the Jews believ'd all this yesterday and the day before and always without Interruption But Sir once again said Mr. Claude The Gentils agreed not all this What answer'd I was there amongst them any one so unreasonable as to say That there never were any Jews or that this People expected not a CHRIST and ador'd not one sole GOD Creator of Heaven and Earth Did not they shew the Pagans the manifest Beginning of their Opinions and the Date I do not say of the Authors of their Sentiments but of their Gods themselves and this by their own Histories by their own Authors and by their own Chronology Do you believe That a Pagan could have made a Christian confess That the Christian Religion was new or that there never was any Society which had the same Belief the Christians then had as I make you own That all the Hereticks which you and I acknowledg for such came in this manner and that you have done as they did See Sir how you prove That the Jews and Pagans might maintain their Cause by the same Argument I use None can ever do it nor can ever any one deny the evident Fact vvhich I affirm That vve do as all the Orthodox and you as all the Hereticks have done Here the Conversation ended It had lasted five Hours with a great Attention of the whole Assembly We heard one another peaceably We spake on both sides close enough and except the beginning vvhere Mr. Claude a little enlarg'd his Discourse in all the rest he came to the Matter and presented himself to the Difficulty vvithout Recoiling 'T is true he aim'd rather to entangle me in the Inconveniences in vvhich I engag'd him than to shevv hovv he could himself get out But in fine all this proceeded from the Cause and he assuredly said all that his could furnish him vvith upon the Point to vvhich vve had confin'd our selves For my part I car'd not to go from it since 't was that which Mademoiselle de Duras desir'd to have clear'd She appear'd to me toucht I nevertheless retir'd trembling and fearing lest my weakness might have put her Soul in danger and the Truth in doubt I Visited her the next day III. The Sequel of the Conference I was glad to see she perfectly understood all I had said This is what I had promis'd her I had represented to her That amidst the immense Difficulties which the Spirit of Cavilling and the Depth of the Christian Doctrin had caus'd to spring up a-amongst men GOD would have his Children provided of an easy Means to resolve themselves in what concern'd their Salvation that this Means was the Churches Authority that this means was easy to be establisht easy to be understood easy to be follow'd so easy said I and so clear that if you shall not understand what I shall say upon it I am contented you believe me to be in the wrong This in effect must be so when the matter is well handled But I durst not promise my self that I had treated it as I ought I knew with joy and thanksgiving that GOD had turn'd all to good The Arguments that ought to affect affected her She could not comprehend how an ignorant private Person could without an insupportable pride believe he might happen to understand the Scripture better than all the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church She saw as well as I how weak the Example of the Synagogue was when it condemn'd JESUS CHRIST and how little reason there was to say That the particular persons who believ'd well wanted an Exterior Authority to resolve them when they had in the Person of JESUS CHRIST the greatest and most visible Authority that can be imagin'd I
receiv'd the Gospel of St. Matthew and the Epistle to the Romans and the rest she understood them This Sense which she receiv'd with the Scripture she has kept with the Scripture and the same exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us receive the Holy Scripture he uses also to give us its true Sense All this comes from the same Principle all this is the Sequel of the same Design As then there is nothing to examin after the Church when she gives us the Holy Scripture so there is nothing to examin when she interprets it and proposes its true Sense Wherefore you see that after the Councel of Jerusalem Paul and Silas said not Examin this Decree but they taught the Church to observe what the Apostles had judg'd In this manner has the Church always proceeded I would not believe the Gospel says St. Augustin were I not mov'd by the Authority of the Catholic Church Ep. 5. Cont. Manich. And a little after Those whom I believ'd when they said to me Believe the Gospel shall I not believe when they bid me not believe Manicheus This Society of Pastors establisht by JESUS CHRIST and continu'd until now giving me the Gospel has also told me That I must detest Hereticks and evil Doctrins I believe both together and by the same Authority After this manner were Christians instructed in the primitive Times Tertull. praescrip adv haeret 18. 37. in which Hereticks were told That they were not receivable to dispute of the Scripture because without Scripture they could be shewn that Scripture is not for them that there is nothing common between them and Scripture And observe if you please That all Christian Societies except the Churches newly reform'd have kept this manner of Instructing Mr. Claude and I said That the Greek Church the Ethiopian the Armenian and others were deceiv'd indeed in believing themselves the true Church but all at least believe That there is nothing to examin after the true Church There is no other manner of teaching the Faithful If we tell them That they may understand the Holy Scripture better than all the rest of the Church together we nourish Pride we take away Docility None says it but the Churches which call themselves Reformed Every where else they say as we do That there is a true Church which must be believ'd without examining after her This is believ'd not only in the true Church but also in those which imitate the true Church The Pretended Reformed is the only Church which says it not If the true Church which soever she is says it the Pretended Reformed is not then the true Church because she says it not Let them not tell us The Ethiopian says it the Greek says it the Armenian says it the Roman says it which shall I believe If your Doubt consisted in choosing between the Roman and the Greek 't would be necessary to enter into this Examen But now 't is agreed in your Religion That the Greek Church the Ethiopian Church and the rest are in the wrong against the Roman and if they were true Churches you ought in leaving the Roman which as you say was not to have sought Communion with them They are not then the true Church No more are you For the true Church believes That we must believe without examining what the true Church teaches You teach the contrary You call your selves the true Church and you say at the same time That one must examin after you Which is to say That one may be damn'd in believing you You renounce then from that time the Advantage of the true Church You are not the true Church You must be left 'T is here the Beginning must be If any one in leaving you be tempted to unite himself to the Greek Church he shall be answer'd Mademoiselle de Duras having heard these things nothing seem'd to me capable to trouble her but the Habit contracted from her Infancy and the fear of afflicting her Mother for whom I knew she had all the Tenderness and all the Respect that such a Mother deserves I also saw she was concern'd for the Reproaches that were made her of having human Designs and especially of having delay'd the doubting of her Religion till after a Donation made her by her Mother Your own Conscience said I to her best knows in what Condition you were when this Donation was made you whether you had any Doubt and supprest it in prospect of procuring your self this Advantage I did not so much as think of it answer'd she You know well then said I to her That this Motive has not any part in what you do Continue therefore in Peace provide for your Salvation and let Men talk For this Apprehension of having human Respects imputed to you is it self a sort of human Respect and that of the most delicate and most to be fear'd She requested me to repeat in Mr. Coton's Presence what had been said through a Desire she had that he should be Instructed with her He was sent for we agreed on the Facts Mr. Coton with an extream Sweetness made me some Objections about the Doctrin I had explicated I answer'd them He told me he was not exercis'd in Dispute nor vers'd in these Matters He said true he refer'd himself to Mr. Claude I pray'd GOD to enlighten him and departed to return to my Duty After another Conference which Mademoiselle de Duras and I had at St. Germain in the Dutches of Richelieu's Apartment she told me That she believ'd her self in condition to take her Resolution within a little while and that there was nothing more to do But to pray GOD to conduct her well The Success was such as we wisht On the 22. of March I return'd to Paris to receive her Abjuration She made it in the Church of the Reverend Fathers of the Christian Doctrin The Exhortation I made her tended only to represent to her That she was returning into the Church which her Fathers had forsaken That she would not henceforth believe her self more capable than the Church more illuminated than the Church and fuller of the Holy Ghost than the Church That she would receive from the Church without examining the true Sense of the Scripture as she receiv'd from her the Scripture it self That she was henceforth going to build upon the Rock and that her Faith must fructify in good Works She felt the Consolation of the Holy Ghost and the Assistance was edify'd by her good Example The End of the Conference REFLEXIONS ON A Writing OF M r. CLAUDE'S REFLEXIONS On a WRITING of M R. CLAUDE ' S. YOU have seen in the Advertisement which is at the Beginning of this Book That after Mr. Claude had read my Recital he made an Answer to the Instruction I had given Mademoiselle de Daras joyning to it a Relation of our Conference which he had drawn up as he affirms in that Writing the next day after ouâ— Meeting
Submission of a divine Faith And well if it be so it remains only to choose between these Churches But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush she degrades her self as I may say from the Title of the Church since she finds not in her self Authority enough to cause all those whom she begins to instruct to make an Act of a Christian and an Act of divine Faith not even on the Truth of the Scripture whence 't is suppos'd she ought to learn all the rest But Mr. Claude asks how one shall choose between these Churches Shall it be by Enthusiasm It would be by Enthusiasm as I have observ'd in the Conference if the true Church had not her particular Characters that distinguish her from others She has without going any farther or searching any deeper her Succession in which none can shew her by any positive Fact Interruption Innovation or Change This is what no false Church can so clearly glory of as the true because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn her self There will be then always in the Instruction which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition something that no other Sect can or dare say 'T is by this we would convince if it were in question the Greeks the Ethiopians the Armenians and other Sects which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the apparence of Succession that they shew which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church But as for the Calvinian Church there is an end of her because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession and that she dares not as we have now shewn by Mr. Claude's acknowledgment attribute to her self this Authority without which there can neither be any certain Instruction nor any assur'd Foundation of Divine Faith nor in fine any Church 'T would be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession they brag of 'T would be no great Labor to shew them the exact Moment of their Innovation The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we and can themselves shew it them when they please So when they pross us to do it 't is not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible or even obscure and difficult but 't is in a word that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing and making the consequence of an Argument be lost Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book that if any one disgusted with the Calvinistical Church was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti or of the Greeks 't would be then time to shew them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty which they can no more deâ—y than can the other Sects but since the Calvinists with whom we have to do agree it and that none thinks of leaving them but to come to us when we oblige any one to leave them by shewing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrin the work is perfected and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose And to the end the Method of the Conference and the State of the Question which is there treated may be throughly understood it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church but only to shew that there is some-where or other a true Church to which we must submit without examining and besides that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church since she will her self have one examin after her which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities we have remark't and by this acknowledgment lose the Title of the Church This done there 's no more question to preach the Roman Church that is that Body of the Church of which Rome is the Head since to him that will choose between two Churches the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other without any need of disputing farther for this purpose Besides that the Roman Church so evidently beare these Characters of the true Church that there is scarce any man of good Sense even amongst our Reformed but agrees that if there be in the world an Authority to which we must submit 't is that of this Church But however when one sees the Absurdities one is forc'd to own in Calvinism for want of having acknowledg'd in the Churches Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction one soon retires from a Church whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective and one is sufficiently sollicited by the Remains of Christianity which one feels within himself to return to the Church from whence he departed The Sixth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children VVE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses that press'd by this want of Authority which ruins all Instruction in his Church he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Churches Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith we make before we have read the Holy Scripture But he ought first to consider that the Argument I made him regarded not only Children Children are not the only Christians that have not read the Scripture Mr. Claude is not ignorant that there were in the beginning of Christianity not only particular men but also whole Nation which according to the Report of St. Irenaeus had not the Holy Scripture and without reading it ceas'd not to be true Christians The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those that have not read the Holy Scripture of what Age soever they may be and what way soever they may have hapned not to have read it For 't is of those and if they will 't is of those whom St. Irenaeus mentions or of their like that I enquire concerning the Faith with which they believe the Scripture and prepare to read it as being inspir'd by GOD. If they have but an human Faith as Mr. Claude says they are not Christians and if they have a Divine Faith as must be acknowledg'd unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity 't is then true that Divine Faith without ones having read the Scripture immediatly follows the Churches Doctrin and establishes her infallible Authority 'T is on this Authority that every Christian who takes the Scripture in hand begins by believing with a firm Faith that all he is going to read is Divine and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture till he has read it all he believes the first Chapter before he has read the second and he believes all before he has read the first Letter or so much
Claude is oblig'd to acknowledge a Church always visible since the Church which is not visible is no Church and that according to the Definition Vid. Sup. p. 103. he has given us the Church is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life These Faithful then are not a Body in the Any since they make PROFESSION OF THE TRUTH under an Ecclesiastical Ministery always subsisting and that as we have seen there must be without any Interruption an exterior Profession of which it may be said There are the true Believers Thus 't is not sufficient to alledge at random to us conceal'd Believers they are oblig'd to shew us without Interruption first a visible Society of which may be said They are there 't is there they serve GOD in Spirit and Truth 't is there they confess the Gospel Nor will it be enough to shew us these Believers dispers'd they must secondly shew us them gather'd together under the Authority of an Ecclesiastical Ministery with preaching of the Word with the Administration of the Sacraments with the use of the Keys and all the Ecclesiastical Government By consequence they must shew us a Society of Pastors and People whence it follows in the third place that they must be able to name us these Pastors since the Succession of them is manifest To seek all this in the Pretended Reformed Church as it is now separated from the Roman Church that is from that Body of the Church which acknowledges the Roman Church and the Pope for its Head is what Mr. Claude does not so much as dream of 't is enough for him that to the time of the Pretended Reformed's Separation he finds all this in the Roman Church it self The true Believers were there as long as those that compos'd the Pretended Reformation were there when they went forth or were driven forth Vid. Sup. p. 46. they carry'd the Church with them as Mr. Claude said in the Conference This Discourse more like a Raillery than a serious Discourse is nevertheless that which is seriously held in the new Reformation Till the Separation of these new Reformed the Succession of the true Believers that is according to Mr. Claude of the true visible Church Man Ans q. 4. seq was perpetuated in the Roman Church and 't is since their Separation that she ceases to contain them Such is the Succession of the visible Church which Mr. Claude establishes in his Manuscript Answer till the Separation the true Faithful which the Roman Church contain'd after the Separation the Pretended Reformed which came forth of her Bosom But whence came their Pastors Were they also detacht with these pretended Believers from the Body of the Roman Church to perpetuate in the Church thus Reform'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery Ibid. In no wise Mr. Claude does not understand it so The Faithful detacht from the Roman Church all on a sudden depos'd all the Pastors which were before that is to say that before the Catholick Bishops and Priests with the Pope at their Head were the Pastors establisht by JESVS CHRIST for there must be such for the true Believers which they contain'd in their Unity in the Moment that the Reformation appear'd they were all on a sudden depos'd and the Ministery taken out of their Hands But what right had private persons thus all on a sudden and in one moment to dispossess all their Pastors 'T is because they are the true Believers Man Ans q. 4. seq to whom the Ministery appertains of right who might consequently dispose of it take it from some and give it to others Man Ans 4. q. towards the end We must not says Mr. Claude imagine the Succession of Pastors in this ordinary transmission which the Ministers make from one to another and which is call'd the exterior and personal Succession the Question is whether it may not sometimes happen that the Church that is the true Believers shall take her Ministery out of the hand of those who have too visibly abus'd it and give it to others This is the Question in general Cons 8 9 10. as Mr. Claude proposes it and the Application he makes of it in particular is That the Latin Prelates who enjoy'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery in the time of our Fathers and who were assembled in the Council of Trent having made Decisions of Faith incompatible with Salvation and having pronounc'd Anathemaes against these who submitted not to them the Pretended Reformed had Reason to regard these Prelates as Ministers who had stript themselves of the Ministery and to give it to other Persons They should then at least according to these Principles have expected the Decisions of Trent and since before these Decisions so many Churches separated from Rome had already given themselves Pastors the Reformation will have begun by a manifest Usurpation But let us not so much press Mr. Claude and without insisting rigorously on the Council of Trent let us desire him only to mark us some day a little near the Time in which he will permit the true Believers to have continu'd under the Ministery of the Roman Church And in the mean time let us content our selves to observe this new Doctrin that it may happen that all the Pastors of the Church dispossest all on a sudden may become in one moment private men and that without their establishing any other Pastors to succeed them the true Believers in no wise Pastors but private persons separated from every Church actually existing may of their sole Authority confer the Ministery on others establish them ordain them instal them This is what Mr. Claude afterwards farther explicates by these words that these Pastors before alone in Function are of right depriv'd and the Ministery return'd of right to that part of the Society Cons 10. in which are found the true Believers that is to say the Pretended Reformed separated from the Roman Church and from every Church then subsisting in the world What an Authority and Privilege does the Separation give Such is Mr. Claude's Doctrin if I change if I exaggerate if I diminish let him without delay publish his writing to confound me But if this be his Doctrin I conjure our Reformed to consider what Prodigies of Doctrin must be taught to defend their Reformation For first where do they read in what Gospel in what Epistle in what Writing of the Old or New Testament that all the Pastors of the Church should in a moment fall from their Chair and become private persons whom one might and ought freely disobey Has JESVS CHRIST hidden this great Mystery from us and would he not have precaution'd us against this horrible Temptation of his Church But this is not all after he has shewn us in the Scripture this universal Fall of all the Pastors he must also find there this Ministery return'd of right
to the private Persons that were never vested with it And what is Mr. Claude's Meaning Is it that these private Persons become of right Ministers without any Bodies having ordain'd them or that without being Ministers they have Right of their sole Authority to set up Ministers in the Church Let them shew me it in the Scripture or let them for ever renounce the Pretence of having the Scripture alone for Guide I find in the Scripture that JESVS CHRIST said to his Apostles As my Father sent me I also send you I find in the Scripture that the Apostles thus send others and consecrate themselves Successors But that all their Successors being on a sudden faln and depriv'd of the right of their Ministery this Ministery should of right return to the Faithful to whom none had ever given it to dispose of at their Pleasure neither has the Scripture said nor following Ages imagin'd 'T is then a Monster the Birth of which was reserv'd for the time of the new Reformation The Ministery say they belongs of right to the Church It does without doubt belong to the Church as the Eyes do to the Body The Ministery is not for it self no more are the Eyes The Ministery is establisht to be the Light of the Church as the Eyes are the Light or as JESVS CHRIST calls them the Torch of the Body Does it follow that when the Body has lost its Eyes it can remake them of it self No without doubt it will have need of the Hand which made them at first and there will never be any thing but a new Creation which can repair the Work that the first Creation had form'd In this manner if the Catholick Church could as they would imagin in the new Reformation lose all on a sudden all its Ministers without their having given themselves Successors according to the Order of JESVS CHRIST JESVS CHRIST must come again on Earth to re-establish this sacred Order by a new Creation They will indeed find in the Bosom of the Roman Church these true Believers of which the Reformed Church was at first compos'd why will they not in the same manner detach the Pastors of this Reformed Church from the Pastors which were in Office in the Roman Church The Ministery is to be mixt as the People and is to have always good Pastors amongst the Bad as there are always true Believers amongst the false Christians Why then were they fain to say in the new Reformation and in the XXXI Article of their Confession of Faith that the State of the Church was interrupted Why were they fain to have recourse to these People extraordinarily rais'd to build anew the Church which was in ruin and desolation 'T is that they were fain to speak not according to what ought to be done in the Order establisht by JESVS CHRIST but according to what was done against all Order 'T is that the new Reformation was made of Pastors who in effect held nothing from the Pastors that were before and therefore they were necessitated even against their Wills to attribute to them thô without proof an extraordinary Vocation But in truth Reason requir'd something else and why then did they not speak according to Reason except it were once again that they were fain to accommodate not what was done to the Rule but the Rule to what was done But will they say if any Church for example the Greek Church shews us the Succession of her Pastors will you hold it for a true Church By no means if I can shew in it Marks of Innovation which it cannot deny as I should do without much trouble if it were in question But with our Reformed the Proof is made since themselves confess the Interruption we charge them with Mr. Claude palliates as well as he can this interrupted State of the Church so punctually acknowledg'd in her Confession of Faith We distinguish After the 4. q. 7. Conseq says he the Church from her State The Church are the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of a real Sanctity under a Ministery which furnishes them with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one Her natural and legitimate State is to be discharg'd as much as the Condition of militant can permit from the impure mixture of prophano Persons and Worldings not to be cover'd and as it were bury'd by this Chaff and these Tares whence a thousand Evils come upon her as to have a Ministery free from Errors from false Worships from superstitious Practices a Ministery possess'd by good People who keep at by good ways and serve themselves for good example 'T is this State of the Church which we say was interrupted Why does he load himself with so many Words and because they are pompous not observe that they are vain not to say deceitful and manifestly contrary to the Gospel For can one more clearly impose on People than by exaggerating as is here done this Ministery possest by good people who keep it by good ways and serve themselves for good Example Is it that the Authority of the Ecclesiastical Ministery dupends on the Discussion of the Life and good Example of those who are vested with it and that thô they should be as scandalous and perverse as the Scribes and Pharisees we must not still say not with JESVS CHRIST they sit in Moses Chair but what is much more august Matt. 23. v. 2. they are in the Chair of JESVS CHRIST and his Apostles Let us leave nevertheless these things and come to this interrupted State of the XXXI Article which Mr. Claude undertakes here to explicate to us This interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd here to found the necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Pretended Reformers for let us hear how this Article speaks It has been sometimes necessary and namely in our days in which the State of the Church was interrupted that GOD should raise up people after an extraordinary manner to set up the Church anew You see Gentlemen this interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd only to found the extraordinary Vocation of your Pretended Reformers But to found the Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation 't is not sufficient that the Ministery is impure it must have ceased When you came Gentlemen had this Ecclesiastical Ministery ceas'd By no means will Mr. Claude answer you for then the Church would have ceas'd since the Church according to him as you just now heard is nothing else but the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth UNDER A MINISTERY which furnishes her with necessary Aliments And he has already told us that the Church is never without the Ministery Wherefore in this place where he endeavours to give an Account of this interrupted State after he has by so many fine Words set forth the Impurity which he imagins in the Ministery before the Reformation The Church adds he ceas'd
not She did not entirely lose her Visibility or her Ministery GOD forbid See how he cries out against this Abomination to say that the Ministery can be lost in the Church There is never then any Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Ministers since to transmit the Ministery after the ordinary manner 't is not requisite for the Ministery to be pure 't is sufficient that it is And thô for the transmitting of it there should be requir'd as Mr. Claude speaks not only Ministers of good Doctrin but also of good Life and good Example 't is as sure that there will be always such in the Society of GOD's People as 't is that there will be always true Believers since that all the Ministery as well as the People must be there mixt of Good and Bad till the final Separation at the last Judgment Thus the extraordinary Vocation is on all sides excluded from JESVS CHRISTs Church and can be only a weak Refuge for a deplor'd Cause And to see what an Overthrow to JESVS CHRISTs Order Mr. Claude here introduces we need only consider the Promises of JESVS CHRIST and see in what it has pleas'd him principally to establish the Strength of his Church She is strong she is invincible because JESUS CHRIST has said Mat. xvi v. 18. that Hell should not prevail against her But he did not say that Hell should not prevail against her till after he had said Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church adding presently after I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven 'T is then in the Ministery confessing and declaring JESUS CHRIST and using the Authority of the Keys that JESUS CHRIST has principally establisht the Strength of his Church And to whom did he say I am with you even unto the end of the world Matt. xxviii v. 20. but to those to whom he said â—â—ach and baptize All the Church is comprehended in this Promise who knows it not But JESUS CHRIST would shew the Truth of this Doctrin Ep. 69. ad Flor. Pap. so well explicated by St. Cyprian The Church forsakes not JESUS CHRIST and this is the Church the People united with their Bishop and the Flock joyn'd to their Pastor where 't is clear that we must understand as he says elsewhere Ep. 45. ad Corin. 4. Tr. de vnit Ecc. c. this Pastor united with all his Collegues and with the whole Unity of the Episcopacy so often establisht in his Writings 'T is then with reason that JESUS CHRIST would shew the Succession of his Church by that of the Ministery and 't is manifestly seen that 't is to those who teach he would say I am always with you And what is here more admirable is that these Promises are so evident that Mr. Claude against the Prepossessions of his Religion was forc't to acknowledg them such as I have now explicated them For we have heard him tell us that 't is in effect of a confessing Church of a Church which publishes the Faith of a Church which uses the Ministery that JESUS CHRIST has pronounc'd that Hell should not prevail against her V. sup xi Ref. p. 99. seq And because JESUS CHRIST after he had said Teach and baptize adds I am with you Mr. Claude concludes as we do that JESUS CHRIST in effect designs a Church that he affirms he will be with her baptize with her and teach with her even unto the end of the world 'T is then the Succession and Perpetuity of the Ministery which is principally comprehended in this Promise 't is principally in this that JESUS CHRIST establishes the Strength and eternal Duration of his Church In the mean time against all this Order we are shewn the Ministery so weak and so forsaken by JESUS CHRIST that it falls all together in one moment and on the contrary particular Believers so strong that they alone establish all the Ministery extraordinarily rais'd without having regard to the Succession or Authority of all the precedent Administration Who does not then see that all is overturn'd in the new Reformation and that to say with them that GOD would preserve true Believers in his Church to depose by their means all the Pastors and afterward set up others extraordinarily in their place whilst he would not preserve good Pastors to transmit the Ministery by the common ways establisht in his word and always observ'd in his Church is to say that he would set up a Church in a manner contrary to that he has reveal'd and has always caus'd to be follow'd by his Church Or rather 't is to say that he would have this Church form'd after a manner so new amongst Chriâ—â—â—ans bear in its Original without ever being able to efface it the manifest Character of its Falsity But let us come to these true Believers of whom Mr. Claude brags to us I am not contented to dispute with them the Power he has given them to depose all their Pastors and make others I say that these true Believers never were There must notwithstanding according to this Minister have been true Believers even in the Bosom of the Roman Church for since according to his Doctrin there must be acknowledg'd without any Interruption an Ecclesiastical Ministery and an exterior Profession of which might have been said There are the true Believers they were true Believers under that Ministery and in that Profession whence they went forth I ask did they communicate in the Sacrifice where Saints are invocated where their Relicks and Images are honour'd where the Pope is nam'd as the Head of the Orthodox where JESUS CHRIST is ador'd as present in Body and Soul where he is offer'd where the Holy Sacrament is receiv'd under one Kind Not to communicate in this Sacrifice and to refuse the receiving of the Eucharist there were manifestly to separate and they are suppos'd not to have done that yet but if they communicated there continuing true Believers in what an Error are now all our Reformed who believe not themselves to have been true Believers till since they left communicating there Thus these true Believers are People in the Air 1 Kin. xix v. 18. these seven thousand so much bragg'd of in the new Reformation and by Mr. Claude Man Ans 2 part are so far from appearing that they are not in nature since before the Separation there was not any one who communicated not in the Sacrifice and Host which our Reformed look on as Baal before whom one must not bow the Knee They say that these true Believers who by their actual separating compos'd the Reformation were before separated in heart from the publick Idolatry But first this is not sufficient secondly 't is not so This is not sufficient according to Mr. Claude since he will have a Church always visible since he has just now defin'd the Church to be the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth
which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated