also in the forgiuenesse of sinnes and the meaning is all one And in a third Sermon he giueth vs this caueat we must know saith he that we must beleeue the Church not beleeue in the Church that is must beleeue there is a Church So then To beleeue the Catholicke Church is not to beleeue all that the Church saith which neither the Greeke nor the Latin will beare but to beleeue there is a Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Credo esse Ecclesiam which in the phrase of the new Testament for the Greeke might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which is word for word I beleeue that there is a Church Now if any man shall demaūd of me what the meaning of this article is or what we beleeue by beleeuing there is a Church and what that Church is to which so many gracious promises are made and of which so many glorious things are spokē in the scripture I will indeuor to satisfie him as briefly as I can with plainnesse First then leauing the holinesse and catholicknesse of this church to be discussed in due place I say that by beleeuing the Church we beleeue that there is a company of men called to true faith in Iesus Christ and to the participation of those priuiledges which belong to all the true members of his mysticall bodie some of the principall whereof are recited in the articles following But we may not imagine as the Papists doe without any likelihood of true reason that this company is their Pope and Bishops assembled in a generall councel or that they of this companie make one visible congregation but that they are all one Church in regard of the common meanes of saluation which they embrace and their dependance vpon on mysticall head Iesus Christ of whose bodie they are all members So that by Church in the Creed we vnderstand such of the elect as are by faith liuely members of our Sauiours bodie or at the least are by the baptisme of the spirit and water in corporated into that bodie howsoeuer as yet they haue not faith I denie not that all the elect euen those which are yet vnborne belong to the Church of Christ but I thinke the Creed doth not stretch so farre but onely to them that are actually members of Christ not to all that are so in Gods euerlasting predestination In this sense namely for the liuing members of Christs bodie the word Church is often vsed in the Scripture Vpon this rocke will I build my Church The Church which he hath purchased with his blood God hath giuen Christ ouer all things to be the head of the Church which is his bodie the fulnesse of him that filleth all in all things Christ is the head of the Church and the same is the Sauiour of his bodie So is it taken in the same chapter diuers times He is the head of the bodie of the Church Thus doe the ancient writers speake of the Church Austin denieth that he dares take any for the Church of Christ but those that are iust and holy no though they haue bene baptised For as he saith in another place they that are condemned by Christ are not now in his bodie which is the Church because Christ cannot haue members condemned As for the reprobate saith the same Author whether they seeme to be within the Church or be apparantly out of it they are alwaies diuided from the vnitie of the Church which is without spot or wrincle The Church saith Clement of Alexandria is the company of the elect Therefore saith Cyprian that the vnitie of Christ and the Church is coupled together with indiuisible links For as he saith otherwhere the Church that beleeueth in Christ and holds that which once it hath receiued neuer departeth wholy frō him they are the Church that cōtinue in the house of God but they are not a planting planted by God who are not setled with the fastnesse and soundnesse of wheat but are scattered like chaffe by the breath of the enemie Sathan The Church standeth on the right hand saith Ierome and hath nothing in it belonging to them on the left hand And againe He that is a sinner and defiled with any filthinesse cannot be called one of Christs Church nor be said to be subiect to Christ There are many such sayings in the writings of the Fathers grounded vpon the booke of Canticles which all men know intreateth of the true church There is no doubt saith Bernard vpon the Canticles but the elect are the Church of God But the reprobat as one of your Cardinals saith are not truly mēbers of the Church Of many beleeuers purged from their sinnes there is made one Church saith Albertus magnus Thomas his master Thomas himselfe expounding that place of the Reuelation In the Temple of my God saith that by the temple of God the Church of the faithfull is vnderstood which is the speciall temple of God and to that purpose he alledgeth that of the Apostle The temple of God is holy which you are And in an other place he saith that the mysticall bodie of Christ is the Church Now the vnion of this mystical bodie is spiritual by which through faith and charitie they are vnited to God and one to another As the godly or they that are holy are the members of Christ so the wicked saith Ambrose are the members of the Diuell The congregation of them that beleeue aright is the Church saith Altissiodorensis Who can reasonably doubt whether this be the Church spoken of in the Creed or no As for the promises and commendations giuen to the Church in the Scripture to what other Church should they appertaine The Doue and the perfect one praised in the Canticles is as Epiphanius truly saith the holy spouse and Catholicke Church Whereas the Church in the Canticles saith Austin is described to be a garden inclosed a fountain sealed vp a wel of liuing water c. I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous not of couetous men not of deceiuers extortioners vsurers drunkards enuious persons although they haue receiued the same baptisme but haue not the same charitie or sanctifying grace The promises praises belong either seuerally to euery one of the elect called as that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church that the Church is loued and cherished by Christ her husband head or to the congregations of beleeuers in regard of the elect amongst them Once this I dare boldly affirme let any Papist disproue it if he can that the Church is no where in all the Scripture taken for one companie through the world in respect of any outward gouernment or dependance which is the foundation of all your doctrine touching the Church but in regard of the common meanes of saluation by faith in Christ And here I might
Ierome before Poperie was hatched shall alwaies be open to them that desire to be saued that entrance may not be denied either in prosperitie or aduersity to them that will beleeue Thus this place of Esay will not prooue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 7. Sixtly the onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or onely of the good But this is a false ground as appeareth by the name of Church in Greeke Ecclesia which euen by the Etymology of the word doth signifie the companie of men called now sure it is that moe are called then elected as our Sauiour saith Multi vocati pauci electi Againe this ground is shewed to be false by those parables in which the Church is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed And to a mariage to which came good and bad And to a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad And to ten Virgins wherof fiue were foolish and excluded from the celestiall mariage This ground is also shewed to be false out of Saint Paule who commaundeth the Corinthians to expell an incestuous person out of the Church Ergo before this expulsion there was such a person in the Church and therefore the Church doth not consist onely of those that be good A. W. Because your owne reasons are not strong enough to proue the point in question you thinke to helpe the matter by ouerthrowing the ground whereupon onely as you confidently auouch we build our deniall of the Churches visibility at all times But neither is that our onely ground and if it were you are not able to shake it Concerning the former we denie the visibilitie of the Church as it is vnderstood in those places where our Sauiour promiseth spirituall graces to it and as it is taken in the Creed because that Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ and therefore can consist of none but those that are truly iustified and sanctified as none but the elect are But we farther denie the same visibilitie because you would haue vs beleeue that the Catholicke Church is visible To which we answer that this Catholicknesse let the Church be what it will maketh it inuisible because that which is Catholicke is generall consisting of many particulars and we haue learned that vniuersals are not subiect to sense but onely to be conceiued by the minde as hauing no outward shape which can be seene or knowen by any of the fiue senses Moreouer if we take the question in the most reasonable sort that may be and so it is verie seldome handled by you Whether there must alwaies be some one or other companie of men that may be famously knowen of all the world to be a true Church of Christ Still we continue in denying that visibilitie First as it is propounded by you for an Article of Faith and an essentiall propertie of the or a true Church Secondly because we are taught in the Scriptures that the true Church that is the professours of Christs true Religion shall be faine to flie into the wildernesse and so must needes be out of the sight of at least the greatest part of the world I am loth to repeate these things so often but you driue me to it my helpe is to do it as shortly as I can All the forces you bring to ouerturne the ground vpon which our denial of the Churches visibilitie stādeth are diuided by you into two bands with the former whereof thus you set vpon vs. The companie of men called consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is the companie of men called Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely I denie your Minor many men are called that are not of the Church which consisteth of such onely as being called are also elect It is true that the word Church is sometimes so generally taken that it compriseth all such as make profession of faith in Christ but this is not the Church of which the Creed speaketh and to which our Sauiours promises apppertaine yea besides this Church there is the true Church of Christ whereof he is head whose bodie hath neuer a rotten or dead member such as ouer many perhaps the greatest part of them that make profession of beleefe commonly are In a word the whole course of your Treatise failes in this point that whereas the word Church is diuersly taken you apply that to it in the generall meaning of the word which was spoken of it by our Sauiour the Prophets and Apostles in that speciall signification by which it containeth none but the elect To your proofe I answer farther First that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verie nature of it doth not signifie The companie that is any certaine companie called but generally a company that is any such companie whatsoeuer Secondly I adde that the word is also sometimes taken for a companie whether called or not called as I haue hated the companie of the wicked Where the Prophet speaketh not of any companie called together but absolutely of the wicked howsoeuer assembled or not assembled Thirdly I say it is enough in respect of the nature and Etymology of the word that the Church be a companie of men called neither can it any way be enforced from the signification of it in Greeke that the Church must needs comprehend all that are in any sort called Indeed the elect onely may truly be said to be called in an especiall manner because they haue besides the outward sound of the preacher the inward voice of the spirit and are not onely called to beleeue the truth of the Gospell but also to beleeue truly in Iesus Christ to saluation This is your rereward with which you charge vs afresh and that as it were both with foote and horse First you throng together many places of Scripture as if your confidence were greater in your number then in vour valour Let vs encounter you That which is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed To a mariage to which come good and bad To a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad To ten virgins whereof fiue were foolish and shut out from the coelestiall mariage consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is compared to such a floare marriage net virgins Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely A verie hot assault but your bullets fall a great way short of the marke you do or should aime at For all you prooue by this reason is onely this that the Church taken for the whole companie of them that make profession of the Gospell consisteth not onely of the elect Who euer dreamed it did You are so farre from ouerturning our ground that you neuer once come neare it for all this braue shew
companie congregatio congregation multitudo multitude turba troope concio assembly exercitus armie But the two Greeke words are best knowne Ecclesia and Synagôga the former whereof commeth of the Hebrew retaining almost the signification and sound thereof In this they all agree that they note vnto vs a companie or assembly But because the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the word that most of all concerneth this question let vs enquire of that the more diligently The word for the nature of it signifieth any companie called together generally any assembly lawfully or vnlawfully orderly or disorderly assembled Of lawful assemblies there is no question of vnlawfull we haue an example in the Scripture where the people of Ephesus tumultuously ranne together against Paul and Apollos So doth the Hebrew word signifie in the Psalmes where the Greeke and Latine translate by the same word I haue hated the assembly of the wicked But in the new testament except that one place of the Acts it is alwaies applied to them that make profession of religion In which sense it is sometimes vsed indefinitely God hath ordained some in the Church first Apostles c. So the Apostle Paul saith that he had persecuted the Church of God Thus may we also vnderstād that The house of God which is the Church of the liuing God If we conceiue that the Apostle speaketh to Timothie as to an Euangelist and not as to the Pastor or Bishop of Ephesus Hitherto may those places be referred The Lord added to the Church from day to day And great feare came on all the Church Herode stretched forth his hand to vexe certaine of the Church and such like though they may also be vnderstood of the beleeuers at those times ordinarily abiding in Ierusalem and assembling themselues together in one or which is the likelier in diuers congregations for exercise of religion More particularly and vsually the Church is taken for anie one congregation assembled about matters of religion It seemed good to the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church Not as if the Apostles and Elders had bene no members of that Church but the principall being first named the generall terme is added which comprehended all as if they should haue said The Apostles and Elders and all the rest of the Church at Ierusalem whereof as it was a particular congregation the Apostles at that time were not members And in this meaning may a Councell of diuers parishes prouinces or nations be called by the name of a Church and in the like sort may we call the assemblies congregations in Rome Coriath Ephesus the Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus because of some common synod or because by the terme Church the beleeuers are signified Most vsually the seuerall congregations in any countrie or Citie are called Churches because of their ordinarie assembling Then had the Churches rest through all Iudea When they had ordained them Elders by election in euery Church VVe haue no such custome nor the Churches of God When the title is applied to particular families it hath no other meaning as I take it then to note them for Christians or beleeuers Greet the Church that is the beleeuers which are in their house And thus much of the Church as it signifieth generally Beleeuers The word Church is vsed in the scriptures and that verie often not for all but onely for some beleeuers namely for such as are indeed true beleeuers in respect of true faith in Iesus Christ and these are alwaies of the elect who are then called the Church when they are brought to the knowledge of the truth and to Iustifying faith Therefore when we say that the Church signifieth the elect or predestinate we meane onely such of the elect as by faith are members of our Sauiours bodie he being the head For howsoeuer in the secret Counsell of God many not yet borne be predestinate to euerlasting life yet they are not to be accounted of this Church before it hath pleased God to call them to beleeue in Christ Examples of the Church thus taken amongst many are these Vpon this rocke I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it God hath giuen Christ aboue all the head of the Church So the Church is called Christs bodie This may serue concerning the meaning of the wotd out of which I obserue this point that since the terme Church is so diuersly taken in the scripture no argument from any place of Scripture can be of force to prooue any question till the signification of the word in that place be euident and certaine And therefore it is not enough for proofe of a matter in controuersie betwixt vs to alledge a text of Scripture where such a thing is spoken of the Church but it stands vs vpon to prooue that in the place we alledge by Church the companie we intend is signified This being vnderstood and remembred I come now to the seuerall points in your Minor A. D. §. 4. The promise of our Sauiour Christ we haue first in the Gospell of Saint Matthew Ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi I am with you all the daies vntill the end of the world in which words is promised the continuall presence of Christ himselfe who is veritas the truth it selfe with his Church not for a while then or for a while now but all the daies vntill the end of the world Secondly we haue an other promise in the Gospell of Saint Iohn Ego rogabo Patrem alium paracletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeternum Spiritum veritatis I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other paraclite the spirit of truth that he may remaine with you not onely for 600. yeares but for euer And againe in the same Saint Iohn to shew vs for what purpose he would haue his holy Spirit remaine among vs for euer he saith Paracletus quem mittet Pater in nomine meo ille vos docebit omnia suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero vobis The paraclite whom my Father will send in my name shall teach you all things and shall put you in minde of all things whatsoeuer I shall say vnto you And againe Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis docebit vos omnem veritatem When that spirit of truth shall come he shall teach you all truth A. W. The first point of your Minor is that Christ promiseth his presence and the assistance of his spirit to teach them all truth First I demaund whether our Sauiours presence be for the teaching of all truth or no or whether that be onely the office of the spirit If the former to what purpose is the spirit promised whom our Sauiour hath appointed his vicegerent as it were in that matter as the other places you alledge prooue
able to bring any place of Scripture in which the holy Ghost so speaketh of the church I deny not that all Christians agreeing in one profession may in some sort be said to be of one church but that the Church whereof the Scripture speaks and of which we therefore must speake if we will speake to any purpose is to be conceiued as any one such societie The same word the same sacraments the same kind of gouerners may be in diuers churches and yet not all these be one societie We may imagine the like in common wealths or kingdomes that seuerall states may haue the same kind of lawes customes and magistrates and yet not be all one kingdome or common wealth Your second fault is that vndertaking to define the true church you content your selfe with the same faith and the same sacraments whereas no company nor man can be of that church but they that hold the true faith of Christ and the right vse of the sacraments The third thing I will obserue is rather by way of explication then of refutation you require the gouernment of lawfull pastors as a thing essentiall to the church If you speake of that church to which our Sauiour makes those goodly promises in the Gospell it may be for a time without such gouerners the promises themselues not concerning the whole bodie in respect of their lawfull Pastors but euery particular in regard of his faith in Iesus Christ And indeed howsoeuer it be true that to the being of a Church as it is commonly taken it is necessary that there be both a pastor and a people yet a people depriued of their pastors by what meanes soeuer and hauing no dependance vpon any other congregation doth not cease to be such a Church as our Sauiour promiseth to protect from spiritual and bodily enemies yea a people so destitute hath power to chuse a pastor for themselues and therefore are still in some sort a Church because that power is no where out of a Church but is appropriated to the companies of beleeuers who make seueral Churches though not properly and fully Churches for want of lawfull gouerners In the last place I may not omit to note your craft in adding to your definition of the Church the gouernment of lawfull Pastors as if you would haue the ignorant imagine that there were certaine Pastors who had some ioynt gouernment of the Church for example perhaps your Pope and his Councell of Cardinals or a Councel of Bishops assembled by his authoritie and gouerned by his direction In this sense we vtterly denie that any gouernment of Pastors is necessary to the being of a Church though we gladly embrace the helpes of Synodall prouinciall nationall and generall Councels All true Churches properly so called are gouerned by their seuerall Pastors but this makes them not one church as long as there are not more or at the least one gouerner cōmō to thē al. This the learned of your side discerning though you cannot or wil not see it neuer define the Church without relation to one generall pastor the Pope of Rome As for the seuerall pastors be they neuer so lawful they do no more make their congregations one Church in respect of their gouernment then the Companies of London because they are gouerned by their Maister and Wardens seuerally make one bodie without respect of their common subiection to the Lord Mayor of that citie You wil then perhaps demand of me whether the Church be not a meere sound onely hauing nothing truly answerable thereunto indeed I answer to this question that the Church is more then a meere sound and hath a thing in nature truly answerable to the name and that in two respects For the Church may be taken for the whole multitude of them that in all places of the world professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in this sense it containes all saue the Iewes and the heathen Secondly the Church truly and properly is the companie of the elect that are called to true faith in Iesus Christ More particularly it signifieth such of the elect beleeuers as are liuing in the world And this is that Church to which those glorious and comfortable promises of our Sauiour do appertaine though there be also some promises of outward blessings which are common to all Churches and professors of Christian Religion Now these elect thus called are truly a Church because they are a companie linked together in the sound profession of the same true faith and members of the same mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ vnder the gouernment of the holy Ghost his Vicegerent I do not take vpon me exactly to define the Church but onely to shew in grosse what is necessary to the being of it nor perhaps all that but the especiall point where in you haue failed which is subiection to one and the same Lieutenant and Soueraigne not to diuers of the like kind seuerally as your definition seemeth to require But of this matter enough Now I answer to your minor that there was no necessitie of the Churches visibilitie that it might be such a societie as you imagine For there haue bin and easily may be such societies which may be and haue bin hid from all the world saue those of their owne companie Consider I pray what should hinder this Is it not possible for a companie of men to professe the same religion but other men must needs be priue to that their profession It is like enough that such a company growing to a great multitude and ordinarily holding the exercises of their Religion will in time be discouered as it fell out with the true Christians in the late persecution vnder Queene Marie But this proueth not that therefore there cannot be any such societie but the world must needs take knowledge of it Could your detestable traitors band them selues together in that monstrous plot of treason and murder by gunpowder yea and assemble so often and worke so hard in the diuels seruice without being descried and cannot God by his prouidence keepe his seruants meeting together for his worship but that Satan shall certainly discouer them It is more then manifest how long or short a while soeuer they may keepe themselues vnknowne that they may be such a companie and not by and by be knowne The second point in the first part of your minor is this and thus concluded If the Pastors were to know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastors and this could not be vnlesse the Church were visible then was this one reason of the Churches being visible But the Pastors were to know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastors and this could not be vnlesse the Church were visible Therefore this is one reason of the Churches being visible I may graunt you the whole Syllogisme in the termes it is propounded by you and yet neither I lose nor you get any thing For there is no more concluded by it but
gesse by the words that you meant to refute all marks that euer were set downe by any Heretickes But if we should take your meaning in that sense your discourse would not answer our expectation Besides if all markes assigned by heretickes be naught yours cannot possibly be good which are brought by the grand hereticks of the world the vowed vassals of the great Antichrist the Pope of Rome A. D. §. 1. Out of that which in the former chapter I briefely noted about the nature of a good marke we may easily gather that those markes which some heretickes assigne to wit the true doctrine of faith and the right vse of the Sacraments are no good markes by which all sorts of men may come to know which is the true Church but are meanes as Heretickes vse them to cast a mist ouer the whole matter when as they know that they can most easily conuert all the Sacraments and holy words of Scripture Ad imagines phantasmatum suorum vnto their owne imaginations and phantasticall opinions as out of Saint Austin we may gather that the manner of heretickes is especially when the authoritie of the Church which should correct those deprauations and false expositions is not first by other markes knowen and admitted A. W. You would seeme to haue an especiall gift of making things easie by your markes the Church may easily be discerned out of the former Chapter we may easily gather But I thinke it wil prooue to be so easily gathered that a weake man may easily make you lose your labour in gathering That place of Austin doth so fit you Papists as if he had spoken it of you by name For to go no farther then the matter in hand who euer wrested the Scriptures more to their phantasies then you Papists who are not ashamed nor afraid to apply the most gracious and comfortable promises of our Sauiour Christ to his mystical bodie the Church to an heape of prophane misbeleeuers so they make outward profession of the Gospel in obedience to the Pope of Rome It is enough by your doctrine to make a man a true member of the mysticall bodie of the Sonne of God if he professe as I before said though he haue no part of the life of Iesus Christ in him A. D. §. 2. The doctrine of faith therefore I say and the right vse of Sacraments be not good markes whereby men may discerne which is the true Church This I prooue First for that by the true doctrine of faith which they assigne for a marke of the Church either they meane true doctrine in some points onely or in all True doctrine in some points onely is no good marke because the heretickes teach the truth in some points This therefore being not proper to the Church but agreeing rather to heretickes can be no good marke of the true Church because it wanteth the first condition of a marke which is to be proper and agreeing onely to the thing whereof it is a marke True doctrine also in all points although it be proper if we ioyne to it the right vse of Sacraments with obedience to lawfull Pastors and agree onely to the true Church yet it is no good marke because it faileth in the second condition which is requred in a good marke that is to say it is not apparent or easie to be knowen of all those who should seeke out the true Church As I may easily prooue because to know which companie teacheth the truth in all points requireth first learning whereby one may vnderstand the tearmes and state of the question or controuersie besides iudgement to discusse and weigh prudently the worth and sufficiencie of the authorities and reasons of both parts that vpon this pondering of reasons he may prudently conclude which is the better part Moreouer one had need to haue a supernaturall light of Gods grace and assistance of his spirit whereby he may discerne and see those things which be aboue all naturall rules and reasons Ad haec quis idoneus Who can say that himselfe is sufficiently furnished with these helpes Who can be infallibly sure that he hath all these in such sort as is requisite for obtaining by his owne industrie true and infallible faith in all points Surely at least the vnlearned must needs confesse that in diuers mysteries they do not so much as vnderstand the tearmes state of the question much lesse are they able to examine sufficiētly the worth of euery reason neither are all such as can perswade themselues that they are singularly inlightened and immediately taught of Gods spirit neither if they did thus perswade themselues could they be vnfallibly sure that in this their perswasion they were not deceiued sith it is certaine that some of them that most strongly perswade themselues to be thus taught are in this their perswasion deceiued neither can the vnlearned sufficiently know the truth in euerie particular point by giuing credit to some one or other learned man or any companie of the learned vnlesse that company be first knowen to be of the Church and consequently to be guided in their teaching by the holy Ghost as I prooued before So that it is most hard or rather vnpossible for a man and especially for an vnlearned man in all points Liquidam à tot erroribus discernere veritatem to discerne the plaine truth from so many errours as S. Austin saith It is also most hard for a man of himselfe to iudge which vse of Sacraments is right if he be not first taught by the Church sub this is a principall point of the true doctrine of faith which is as I said verie hard or rather vnpossible to be perfectly knowen by a mans owne selfe But to know first which companie is the true Church and then by giuing credit to it to learne which is the true faith and which vse of Sacraments is right there are not so many things required nor any great difficultie as shall be declared For the Church is that direct way which Isaias speaketh of when he saith Haec erit vobis directa via ita vt stulti non errent per eam This shall be to you a direct way so that euen fooles to wit simple and vnlearned men may not erre in it A. W. These are the two onely marks whereby the true Church may be knowen or to speake more plainely whereby we may iudge of any companie of men professing Christian Religion whether they be a true Church of Christ or no. For the better vnderstanding whereof we must know that howsoeuer we ioyne the Sacraments with the word in this matter yet we do not thinke them to be absolutely of equall necessitie with it to the being of a true Church The true preaching of the word is so simply necessarie that whersoeuer it is it maketh the Church in which it is a true Church of Christ and whersoeuer it is not there is no true visible Church We denie not
that in time of persecution many true Christians may be without opportunitie of meeting together for the true worship of God in hearing his word and calling vpon his name which alwaies accompanieth true preaching and yet still continue true members of Christs mysticall bodie the Church But we say that these men cannot be truly called such a visible Church of Christ as we now seeke for Yet if these men shall ordinarily assemble themselues together to offer vp praier to God and by mutuall conference to edifie each other in knowledge and obedience thogh they haue no certaine minister appointed for the performance of these duties there can no reason be alledgd why they should not be held for a true Church though not perfect complete or why men should not ioine with them hauing no means to become members of any complete congregation properly being a Church The word then in our opinion is simply necessarie and of it selfe sufficient as Luther truly saith where no other signe of a Church can be discerned to conuince a mans conscience that there is a true Church where he findeth the word truly preached Now the administration of the Sacraments is not so necessarie but that there may be a true Church without it vpon occasion as the Iewes had no circumcision amongst them all the fortie yeares when they trauelled through the wildernesse The reason of this difference is assigned to be this that the word is as it were the cause efficient of the Church so that without it there can be no Church but the Sacraments are only seals of Gods mercies and helps for the increasing of those graces which are receiued by the ministerie of the word Now these seales and helpes are not requisite simply to the being of that they seale helpe vs in but onely to the better being and increase of them But if I may be bold with reuerence of other mens iudgement to speake my poore opinion I think this reason sheweth the different necessitie of the word and the Sacraments rather to the making of particular men true Christians thē to the giuing of this or that companie the true being of a visible Church And therefore vnder correction I would rather say that the truth of doctrine deliuered in the ministery of the word and praier are absolutely necessary the administration of the Sacraments not so altogether because the former are such parts of Gods seruice as may and must alwaies be performed when the Church is assembled but the Sacraments neither can alwaies nor need at all such meetings to be administred Which we speake not as if the true vse of the Sacraments were not a necessarie part of Gods seruice to be done vpon all opportunities with reuerence and willingnesse but for that as before I noted there cannot be at all times such opportunitie Yea it may fall out that in some true Church of Christ there shall be no occasion to administer the Sacrament of Baptisme in many yeares This then is that which we hold concerning the markes of a true Church First that wheresoeuer we see the word of God truly taught and the Sacraments truly administred there we may be sure there is a true Church of Christ Secondly that wheresoeuer the former of these is wanting there is no true Church whatsoeuer shew or marke otherwise there be Thirdly that wheresoeuer the word of God is truly preached and accordingly professed there is a true Church though the Sacraments vpon occasion as is aforesaid be not there administred so that they be not neglected vpon any contempt or erroneous conceit of their not being necessarie To disprooue our doctrine concerning the markes of the or rather of a Church you bring this reason If true doctrine be a marke of a true Church then either true doctrine in some pointes or true doctrine in all But neither true doctrine in some points nor true doctrine in all is a marke Therefore true Doctrine is not at all a marke of a true Church I denie you Minor True doctrine in all points is so certaine a marke of a true Church that wheresoeuer we finde that we may be sure there is a true Church But because we enquire after such a marke as may not onely assure vs which is a true Church but also teach vs to know euerie true Church I answer more particularly that true doctrine in some pointes viz. such as are fundamentall is so necessarie a marke as that there is no where any true Church but where there is such true doctrine and that there is vndoubtedly a true Church wheresoeuer that truth is taught and held Your Minor you prooue thus first that true doctrine in some points is no good marke That which is not proper to the true Church but agrees rather to heretickes is no good marke of the true Church But true doctrine in some points onely is not proper to the true Church but agreeth rather to heretickes Therefore true doctrine in some points onely is no good marke of the true Church Againe I denie your minor taking it in the best sense for if I should take it in the worst your whole syllogisme would be nothing to the purpose My answer shall I trust make both these points plaine to euery man I say then that true doctrine in all the fundamentall points of religion is proper to the Church so that no hereticks hold all such points though some haue held many of them Or if any companie do hold them all and yet for some error in other points of lesse moment be counted and be hereticall their heresie is not such as may make them cease to be members of a true Church Thus much of your assumption in the best sense By true doctrine in some points onely you may meane that it is not a propertie belonging to the true Church to beleeue truly some points onely and not all and this indeed is rather proper to heretickes then the true Church because it is the dutie of all true Churches to beleeue all things that the Lord hath taught in the holy Scriptures whereas hereticks take vp conceits of their owne which they mingle with the truth of God either ignorantly or deceitfully I haue reason to suspect this meaning because you thrust in this word onely In this sense your conclusion fighteth with a shadow For we do not make it a marke of a true Church to beleeue some points onely but say it may be and is a true Church though it erre in some points so it hold the fundamentall points soundly and truly This is the proofe of the second part of your minor that true doctrine in all points is not a good marke of the true Church and it is thus concluded Euery good marke of the true Church is apparent or easie to be knowne of all those who should seeke out the true Church But true doctrine in all points is not apparent or easie to be known of
reason not only against Scripture were ordained properly as the ministery of the word the seruice of Angels for their sakes that are to be saued according to the election of God Secondly and as it were accidentally for the hardening of them that will not beleeue to leaue them without excuse To make your matter the more likely you tell vs of our Sauiours loue to mankind which in your diuinity is without exception or respect of persons How then can it sute with the purpose of God his Father who hath chosen some to glory refused other meerly of his owne iust will without respect of difference in the parties so chosen refused As for I that loue of mankind wherupon some men conclude that either all or the greatest part of men are loued by God to eternal life it is not to be vnderstood by comparison of men to men but partly of men to the Angels that fell in which respect the Apostle amplifies the mercy of God to vs He tooke not the Angels but he tooke the seed of Abraham partly of men to all other creatures none of which besides man is vouchsafed the honour to be ioyned in vnity of person with the Sonne of God and so to be made heire of euerlasting glory It is needlesse to repeat what I answered before to this place of Isay onely I will say thus much of your exposition that though all that see the Church may know it yet it doth not follow that therefore all men may see it which you make the end of planting a visible Church that euerie man may learne how to be saued We denie not that the markes of the Church are such as that any man who hath the meanes and will vse them with conscience and diligence may come by the grace of God to the acknowledging of it and by the ministerie of it to saluation Such is the truth of doctrine wherein euerie man may be instructed who will submit his reason to the euidence of truth conteined in the holy Scriptures and not wilfully resist or carelesly neglect the worke of the spirit in the ministerie of the word The bands and chaines Austin speaketh of are not said to draw a man out of the world vnto the Church but to hold him in it that is in already And surely he were vnreasonably absurd that being borne in the profession of Christianitie or by any other occasion brought to ioyne himselfe vnto this or that Church would not cōtinue his beleefe vpon those groūds that Austin there mentions as long as there could be no sufficiēt reason brought to the contrarie yea though he could not discerne the truth of many points which he held as he had bene taught But Austin in the same place professeth that the markes he names and all other whatsoeuer whereby he is held in the Catholicke Church are nothing worth in comparison of truth manifestly prooued out of the Scripture But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake againe hereafter where you propound some of Austins words more at large A. D. §. 2. Of these markes diuers authors haue written at large I for breuitie sake haue chosen out onely these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke because I hope these will be sufficient and because I finde these especially set forth in Scriptures commended by Councels and generally admitted of all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants as now I am to declare First for the generall admittance of these properties of the true Church I need no other proofe but that both Catholicks and Protestants allow of the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed wherein we professe to beleeue the true Church the which Church is there described with those onely foure properties which before I named as though by those onely euery man might sufficiently know that Church which in euerie point they are bound to beleeue Now if besides this proofe out of the generally receiued Counsels some precise man would haue me prooue these properties to agree to the true Church out of the Scripture it selfe this also I may easily doe A. W. So many and diuers are the markes of the Church propounded by your Popish writers that you had good cause to giue some reason why you cull these foure out of all the rest First you alledge breuitie wherof if you had beene so desirous you would not so often haue repeated the same matters You adde the sufficiencie of these their being mentioned in the Scripture commended by Councels and generally admitted by all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants All which taking them in your sense are generally false as shall appeare in the particular handling of them But indeed the true cause is though you will not be knowne of it that Bellarmine out of whom you haue patched vp your whole discourse though he bring fifteene yet confesseth that they may all after a sort be reduced to these foure There are two faults in this proofe whereby you labour to perswade vs that these properties are generally admitted both by Protestants and Papists First though both admit them yet in diuers senses we according to the true meaning of those Councels you according to those phantasies you haue deuised for the establishing of your Apostaticall Synagogue Secondly we admit them not all as markes of the or a visible Church but as hidden properties of the Catholicke Church the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ which are not to be discerned by the eye of the bodie but by the light of faith as all other articles in the same Creed are What though there be no more properties but those foure there set downe will it follow thence that therefore they are named as though by those onely euerie man might sufficiently know the Church Is that the vse of those points which are deliuered concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Or rather are they not set before vs as principall matters to be beleeued of them So are also these properties of the Church If any man be so simple as to take your former proofe for good whereas it faileth in the chiefe point you would prooue by it as I haue shewed he is fitter to be pittied then instructed But is it a note of precisenesse to desire proofe for matters of faith out of the scripture Doubtlesse it was then no lesse precisenesse to appoint the scripture for a rule of our faith and as great for our Sauiour Christ and the Apostles to confirme their doctrine out of the scripture For this course of theirs makes vs the bolder to require the like of you whose authoritie we more doubt of whereas if they had stood vpon their priuiledge and neuer troubled themselues with proouing that they deliuered or leauing their doctrine in writing we should easily haue perswaded our selues to rest vpon mens authoritie and not to looke for any proofe by scripture But giue me leaue a little to consider of this
only to the true Church to professe one and the same faith c. But to be one is to professe one and the same faith c. Therefore to be one is a propertie belonging onely to the true Church I denie your maior professing one and the same faith is not proper onely to the Church but common to it with some false Churches which haue for a long time continued in one and the same heresie as the Mahometans aboue a thousand yeares the Arians aboue 1200. Secondly if this marke be proper to the Church onely then as long as heretickes continue in one and the same heresie I may conclude that they are a true Church But to make your proposition true you must say instead of one and the same faith one and the same true faith which is the marke we set vp to know the true Church by and the reason why the Church is said to be one There are saith Theodoret infinite and innumerable Churches in the Isles and in the Continent but generally all of them are made one by their agreement in true doctrine The Church is said to be one saith Ferus because of the vnitie of faith hope and charitie Your minor also is false vnlesse you adde true to professe one and the same true faith as the place wherō you ground your large exposition might haue taught you For our Sauiour did not pray that his Church might professe one and the same faith at aduenture as if he had not cared what it professed so it alwayes professed the same faith but that it might alwayes professe the true faith which he deliuered to his Apostles and taught by his spirit But indeed that prayer of our Sauiour was not made for any companie of outward professors but onely for those and particularly for euery one of them that attaine to true faith in him As for the prophane and reprobate what is it lesse then blasphemie to say that our Sauiour prayed that they might be one with him and his Father as they are one especially since in the same chapter hee denieth that he prayeth for the world and namely restraineth his prayer to them who by the ministery of the word beleeue in him that is rest wholy and onely vpon him not onely make profession of beleeuing the Gospell which is enough without any inward grace to make any man a member of your true Church Thus haue I spoken of this marke as you should haue propounded your argumēt according to the course of your disputation Now that I may leaue nothing of any moment vnanswered I will speake to it as it is set downe by your selfe The matter you assay to proue is that the Church is signified to be one or is one To proue this you alledge foure seuerall places of Scripture The first is this My Doue is one Where by Doue you vnderstand the Church by being one professing one faith c. To this I answer first that it is no good course of disputing to proue a matter in controuersie by a place that is figuratiue and allegoricall because such texts as Thomas saith affoord no certaine arguments yea as Austin saith it is impudencie for a man to expound any allegory to his purpose vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies for the clearing of that which is doubtfull Secondly this interpretation of yours is directly contrarie to Cardinall Bellarmine and by him refuted who makes this Doue to be the soule of a Christian in the state of perfectiō and deliuers it as a certaine ground that those things in the Canticles which are spoken of the Spouse are not necessary to be vnderstood of the Church but may also be expounded of the Virgin Marie or of euery perfect soule Thirdly if we take it to be spoken of the Church as it is generally and as I am perswaded truly expounded yet doth it not signifie any outward companie but the true Church of Christ the companie of the elect called to the knowledge and profession of the Gospell euery one of which is in his place and measure that perfect soule whom the spouse of Christ so commendeth Know saith Origen that the Bridegroome is Christ the Bride the Church without spot or wrinkle of which it is written that he might make it glorious c. And Ierome who translated that commentary of Origen saith that the church spoken of in the Canticles cleaueth and is ioyned to Christ aboue the heauens as being made one spirit with him So doth Epiphanius vnderstand the place affirming that the Church is perfect because she hath receiued from God grace and knowledge of our Sauiour Christ by the holy Ghost Bernard no enemy to your Church saith in plaine termes that the spouse is the Church of the elect which is said to be one because all together are the spouse of Iesus Christ one chast virgin The sheepfold our Sauiour speaketh of is the same spouse in respect of the spirituall feeding which the sheepe haue in this life from him or to speake more directly it seemes to be that state of grace into which the shepheard Christ leadeth his sheepe that they may be folded vp and safe frō all spirituall dangers which might destroy them Once that he meanes not an outward profession common to sheepe with goates it may appeare by the whole course of the Chapter before wherein all the sheep of that fold are not only said to be Christs sheepe but also to heare his voyce yea so to heare it that they will not hearken to a stranger His sheepe heare his voyce saith Austin and he cals them by name for he hath their names writen in the booke of life Hereupon saith the Apostle The Lord knoweth who are his This sheepfold then is that estate into which Christ the true Shepheard bringeth his elect by the profession of his truth in the visible Church If any man had rather apply this text to the outward estate of the Churches I will not striue with him so that withall he remember first that in these outward Churches the elect onely are the sheepe one with Christ their shepheard as members of his mystical bodie Secondly that this one sheepfold is not to be considered in regard of the Churches being one in profession but in respect of the Gentiles admitted to haue place in Christs mysticall body as well as the Iewes all difference betwixt people and people being taken away In the next two places the church is cōpared to a bodie note that the comparison is chiefly of particular Churches in respect of the seuerall members thereof because of the mutuall coniunction and helpe which each part hath with other and is to affoord to other So doth Lombard truly expound it so you Glosse so Lyra. If we stretch it farther the chiefe cause why the church is one bodie is assigned by Cardinal Caietan to be the
spirit of Christ. For Christ saith he is as the soule giuing life by the holy Ghost to his whole mysticall bodie But the holy Ghost quickens onely the elect not the reprobate too In the latter of the two places the same Cardinall expounds that being one in respect of charitie and Catharin a learned Popish Bishop vnderstands this bodie to be the holy Church consisting of them that are predestinate and called and iustified and glorified holy and faithfull Of the last place I spake sufficiently before Agreement in the truth is the marke we looke at This you adde to proue that to professe one and the same faith that is to be one is proper to the true church Your proofe is that Tertulliā saith that all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders Tertullian might truly say so of al heresies then known yet there may haue bin some since his time perhaps that haue kept alwayes the same errors without any change worth the speaking of But as I noted before since all heresies for a time hold their first errors continuance in the same profession can be no good marke of the true church vnles you can set downe a certaine number of yeares during which they must continue in one and the same faith or else be held for hereticks because of their changing Now in conclusion of this first marke I must obserue a few points for the Readers instruction First I desire it may be noted that whereas vnitie is made a principal marke by your writers they vnderstand as well vnitie of loue as of faith you require but the one of them and so giue vs but halfe a marke Secondly let it be obserued that this marke is either no marke at all or all one with ours so that whereas you trouble vs with more then this you make it much harder then we do to find out the true Church In the third place it would be considered what you meane by one and the same faith I presse you with your owne argument Continuing in one and the same faith in regard of some points only is no good marke because heretickes continue in some points of truth Continuing in all points can be no good mark for it is not only hard but vnpossible for a simple vnlearned man to be assured that any church hath alwayes continued in profession of one and the same faith in euery point yea this is infinitely harder then to discerne of all truth because the one is to be learned out of the Scriptures the other cannot be known but by searching the records of the church from time to time Of the one there is certaine knowledge to be had because the Scriptures are the word of God of the other the best assurance we can haue is but the testimonie of men that might erre by ignorance or partialitie Whatsoeuer doubts or difficulties you can imagine concerning the false translation or misunderstanding of the Scriptures the same wil accompanie all the writings of men touching the doctrine of the Church in all ages Then let any reasonable man iudge whether you or we shew them a better marke to know the true Church by A. D. §. 4. The true Church is also proued to be holy by that of S. Paul Templum Dei sanctum est quod estis vos The temple of God is holy which temple you are By which place notwithstanding S. Paul did not meane to signifie that euery one of this companie was holy For a little after in the same Epistle he saith to the same companie Omnino auditur inter vos fornicatio talis fornicatio qualis nec inter gentes There is plainly heard fornication among you and such fornication as the like is not among the heathen He doth not therefore I say meane that euery one of the Church is holy but that the whole companie is to be termed holy because the profession thereof doth of it selfe wholy tend to holinesse the doctrine being such as withdraweth from all vice and instructeth and moueth men to vertue the Sacraments also do not onely signifie but in the vertue which they haue from Christ his passion they also worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie Wherefore although euery one that is in the Church be not holy yet no doubt alwayes some are the which their holinesse it pleaseth Almightie God to testifie and make knowne sometime by miracle and ordinarily he vseth to make it apparent enough by the light of their vertuous actions which at all times in many members of the true Church do so shine before men that by it men are moued to glorifie God and sometimes to imitate in their owne life that which in others they admire And whatsoeuer member of the Church faileth from this holinesse of life it is euident that the fault is onely in himself who liueth not according to the prescript of his professiō nor vseth in due sort those means which it hath of the holy Sacraments which as I said before are effectuall instruments of sanctification Contrariwise no sect of hereticks is truly holy neither was there euer any person that did inuent or obstinatly adhere vnto any sect of heresie which had in him true sanctitie And no maruel because the very profession and doctrine it selfe of euery heresie is opposite to the very rootes of true sanctitie the which rootes be true Christian faith and humilitie For how can he be truly holy and iust who being possessed with the spirit of heresie must needs be depriued of true faith without which the iust man cannot liue according to that saying of S. Paul Iustus ex fide viuit Or how can he be holy that doth not only not humble himselfe like a little one submitting himselfe to euery humane creature for Gods sake but doth proudly oppose himselfe against the vniuersall Church it selfe whom God hath willed and commanded vs to heare no otherwise then himselfe For wanting this humilitie and consequently the grace of God which is denied to the proud and giuen to the humble there is no doubt but that howsoeuer such a man seemeth in his outward behauiour he can haue no true sanctitie within him the which true sanctitie failing inwardly it is hard for him to beare himselfe so but that sometime or other by one occasion or other he shall euen outwardly manifest this his inward want as in these our daies heretickes commonly do in such apparent manner that it is no hard matter to discerne that they be not as some of them would haue the Church defined a companie of Saints A. W. Hauing shewed before that this discourse proceedeth not orderly as it should to the proofe of that which is propounded by you and denied by vs I will not stand to lay out the fault in euery particular but content my selfe with hauing done it once for all It
and worship of their Images Your idle distinctions of Idoll and Image of seruice and worship of religious and ciuill worship I haue otherwhere examined and refuted If you say that you worship not the Image it is too manifestly apparent as a ruled case amongst you that the Image must haue the same worship that belongeth to the thing whose Image it is But you do not take the Images to be Gods If you speake of all your ignorant people I scarce beleeue you But this maketh no difference in worship The heathen at least the learned and wiser sort of them did not hold their Idols to be Gods but representations of their Gods And you Papists in making them mediators of intercession and so acknowledging but one God do little better then the Pagans for they had but one soueraigne God Iupiter who commaunded all the rest Not onely Dij minorum gentium their Gods of the third and fourth forme but also those of the second and first as Hercules Apollo Venus yea and Iuno her selfe too who was both wife and sister to Iupiter depended vpon him and were glad to be mediators of intercession to him for their fauorites as is euerie where to be seene in Homer and Virgil All the difference of any moment that I perceiue is that some of the heathen Gods were imagined to be such by nature and all your Diui or Saints pety-gods haue both their places and offices by fauour But I am wearie of these abhominations and fooleries of yours The Pastors of the Church being imployed in withstanding manifest and dangerous heresies neither did nor could though they slept not perceiue and reprooue euery errour yea it is more then likely that they were content to beare with many things as long as the maine points were held soundly least by striuing for matters of lesse weight greater things should be neglected and they that erred in small things vpon resistance quite fall away to ioyne with the heretickes This in the beginning for some fiue hundred yeares was the estate of the Church And afterward plentie bred pride and idlenesse the chalices were turned into gold and Priests into wood or lead that partly ignorāce partly slothfulnesse gaue the diuell opportunitie to sow what errours he would in the middest of the Church If any man of more learning or grace thē the ordinary sort perceiued and reprooued the errours of his time he was by one means or other suppressed or disgraced all mē their writings especially after the reuealing of Antichrist being at the deuotion of your persecuting Cleargie Yet did not Almighty God leaue his truth without witnes as it appeareth by record of them who from time to time misliked and withstood your Antichristian doctrines These are no dreames of a proud man in his sleepe but likely coniectures or rather apparent truthes as any indifferent man may discerne and will confesse To shut vp the matter you be take your selfe to your generall Rendez-vous of the Church which forsooth if those former imputations were true should haue erred and so the holy Ghost haue neglected his office which your Pope hath assigned him to keepe the vniuersall Church from erring It had bene well your Antichrist would haue contented himselfe with his saucinesse toward his Lord Saint Peter in appointing him to the Portership of heauen gates and not haue presumed to enioyne the holy Ghost also such an office as our Sauiour neuer committed to him The charge our Sauiour left with that his glorious Lieutenant specified in that part of his Patent which you glance at was not concerning the vniuersall Church a thing in your sense not once signified in the Scriptures but touching the Apostles absolutely and all true Christians in generall and particular for matters necessarie to saluation This accordingly hath alwaies bene performed no man that euer truly beleeued in Iesus Christ hauing fallen into any such errour as might vtterly seuer him from the bodie of the true Church that is the company of the elect beleeuers wherof our Sauiour Christ is the head as I haue shewed in my speciall answer to these places before But Tertullian saith that the holy Ghost had neglected his dutie if the Church had vniuersally erred in such important matters Tertullian speaketh not of any vniuersall Church but of seuerall particular Churches which you grant may erre and yet the holy Ghost not faile in his commission Besides Tertullian himselfe saith otherwhere that the Church may be preserued in one or two and therefore your Catholicke Church of Rome might well fall into such grosse heresies without any disgrace to the Spirit of God A. D. §. 7. § IIII. That the Romane Church onely is Apostolicke Fourthly I find that the Protestants Church is not Apostolick because they cannot deriue the pedegree of their Preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles but are forced to acknowledge some other as Luther or Caluin or some such for their first founders in this their new faith from whom they may perhaps shew some succession of the preachers of their faith but they can neuer shew that Luther or Caluin themselues who liued within these hundred yeares did either lawfully succeed or was lawfully sent to teach this new faith by any Apostolicke Bishop or Pastor Nay Luther himselfe doth not onely confesse but also brag that he was the first preacher of this new found faith Christum à nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari saith he We dare boast that Christ was first published by vs. For which his glorious boasting me thinkes he deserueth well that title which Optatus giueth vnto Victor the first bishop of the Donatists to wit to be called filius sine patre discipulus sine magistro a sonne without a father a disciple without a maister On the contrary side the Romane Church can shew a lineall succession of their Bishops without interruption euen from the Apostle Saint Peter vnto Clement the eight the Bishop of Rome which liueth at this day The which succession from the Apostles which we haue and the Protestants want the auncient Fathers did much esteeme and vsed it as an argument partly to confound the hereticks partly to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholick Church So doth Irenaeus who saith Traditionem ab Apostolis annunciatam hominibus fidem per successiones Episcoporum peruenientem vsque ad nos indicantes confundimus omnes illos qui quoquo modo vel per sui placentiam malam vel per vanam gloriam vel per caecitatem malam sententiam praeterquà m oportet colligunt Shewing the tradition from the Apostles and the faith comming vnto vs by succession of Bishops we confound all them who any way through euill complacence of themselues or vaine glorie or through peruerse opinion do collect and conclude otherwise then they ought So also doth S. Austin who saith Tenet me in Ecclesia Catholica ab
that second property of your rule when I answered to your proposition A man may be saued though he vnderstand not the true sense of euery verse in the Bible so he do not acknowledge it to be the word of God and withall denie it to be true But if it be so hard to vnderstand the Scripture aright is it good dealing in you to vrge the expositions of men with such perē ptorinesse as if it were an hainous sinne not to giue credit to euery interpretation of the Fathers We acknowledge their learning and pietie but we remember they are men and therefore may be deceiued Where they bring reason for their expositions we consider of it with reuerence to them where they bring none we trie whether we can bring any proofe of their interpretation If we finde none we labour to expound the text so as true reason so farre as we can iudge shewes that we ought to doe Where our weakenesse affoords no proofe for our interpretation nor against theirs we are willing and readie to giue more credit to them then to our selues But it is no disgrace to them that processe of time by Gods blessing vpon mens endeauours should bring somewhat to light now which in former ages hath not bene vnderstood It cannot be hidden from any man saith your Bishop of Rochester that many things are now more cleerely beaten out and vnderstood as well in other things as in the Gospell then heretofore because the ancient writers had not the Ice broken before them neither did their time suffice to sound the deepth of Scripture in all places VVe may adde hereunto another reason obserued by Stella that though of our selues we were but Pigmees or dwarfes yet being carried vpon the shoulders of them as it were vpon Giants we may see farther then they could VVhich is the reason why an other of your writers doubts not to affirme that the latter doctrines or expositions are the quicker sighted But diuers men you say expound diuersly and thereupon you demaund how any man can be sure he expounds truly hauing nothing to assure him but the seeming of his owne sense and reason VVhen I read this obiection me thought I saw one of the old Academicks or Scepticks sweating to prooue that there is no truth in any thing to be knowen but that we must be content to rest vpon likelihood I pray you answer me in good earnest Are you perswaded of your selfe I speake to a Scholler that you vnderstand not the true meaning of any one place in Aristotles Physicks with the commentaries vpon him expounding diuersly Surely if your ignorance had bene so great I presume neither Rome Rhemes Doway nor any other Vniuersitie or Colledge would haue vouchsafed you the degree of a Batcheler in Arts. And yet Aristotle himselfe professeth of that booke that he set it out as if he had not set it out because no bodie for sooth could vnderstand it but he that had or should heare him teach by word of mouth as you speake of the preaching of the Church If then it be possible to vnderstand Aristotles meaning and that certainly for all the diuers interpretations of his expositors and his owne intended obscuritie giue vs leaue to thinke that the Lord God purposing to reueale his will by the scriptures hath written in such sort that man his creature to whom as Gregorie saith he writ them may without any iust cause of doubting vnderstand so much at the least as is necessarie for his saluation which was Gods end in writing But euerie interpreter thinks that himselfe hath attained to the right sense What of that Therefore is there no meanes to discerne which interpretation is true which false Doth not this doubt accompanie the writings of the Philosophers as well as the scriptures Neuer go about to perswade vs to such an iniurious and vnthankfull conceit towards God as to imagine that he hath vouchsafed vs the vse of reason and the treasure of his word to so little purpose If it be vnpossible to know whē we haue the true sense of the scripture it had bene farre better that no scripture had bene written but all left to the direction of your Pope frō time to time Such blasphemies as I haue shewed some of your side vtter but a true Christiā is so throughly perswaded of Gods wisdom that by his giuing the scripture he seeth al these your cauils shifts refuted Now in the last place you tell vs that there be many things required to the perfect vnderstanding of scripture which are found in very few If by perfect vnderstanding you meane an exact knowledge of all places that you say is true but not much to the purpose For there is no such knowledge necessary but that the scripture may be the rule of faith though euery text in it cannot be certainly vnderstood But consider a little that if there be means of attaining to a perfect vnderstāding of scripture thogh they be many yet by your confession they may be had else are they in vaine if neither any man nor all men can attaine vnto them some to one some to more as it pleaseth God to bestow his gifts seuerally If you meane that many things are required to a perfect vnderstanding of points necessarie to saluation see how much you differ from the iudgement of the ancient Fathers The truth is not hid saith Chrysostom but from thē that will not seeke it And in an other place The Scripture expoundeth it selfe suffereth no man to erre Let him that hath an heart saith Austin read those things that go before and those that follow and he shall finde the sense For as Ierome truly saith the Lord hath spoken by his Gospell not that a few should vnderstand him but that all should Austin gaue vs the reason before why he speakes plaine in some places and not in all To feed our hunger and to keepe our queasie stomacks from loathing our meate But you require I know not what infallible assurance that they which haue these gifts may be sure they neuer erre in any of their priuate expositions What assurance looke you for No reuelation I hope They may be sure not to erre if they deliuer no expositions but such as they can euidently prooue to be true For other places where the sense is hard let them vse all the diligence they can and if it prooue not verie plaine and certaine let thē leaue it y vncertain til it please God some other man may finde the true meaning of it and so make it knowen to men for the rule of faith in that point it concerneth as it is alwaies in it selfe Are youe afraid lest it should come to passe hereby that many matters of faith should be vnknowen The ignorance of these things cannot hinder a mans saluation and this inconuenience followeth the preaching of your Church as well as the reading of
with them to the very end of their liues for their instruction and comfort neither of which are needfull any longer then while we are in this world They that apply these promises to all the elect also for to any visible companie of men I thinke besides you Papists no man doth neither make for your opinion because they tie them not to any companie but giue euery true Christian his like part in the priuiledge of this spirit and as we heard ere while out of your ordinary Glosse leaue some truth to be reuealed in the life to come I do not thinke saith Austin that in this life the promise of being taught all truth can be fulfilled in any mans mind For who liuing in this bodie which is corrupted and presseth downe the soule can know all truth when the Apostle saith We know in part By which it is also apparent that according to Austins iudgement for euer may be vnderstood of continuing after this life Secondly if these places proue that the Church is a sure foundation or rule of faith it must follow that euery particular teacher is so For eueryone of them to whom our Sauior made these promises was seuerally according thereunto taught all truth and not all ioyntly as if they might haue erred being seuered which you confesse of your Church and therefore this teaching appertaineth not to it Of the seuerall places I say further that in the first of them there is no mention of teaching all truth but onely of sending the spirit of truth That is saith Theophylact the spirit not of the old Testament for that was a figure and a shadow but of the new which is the truth The spirit of truth saith Lyra because he is essentially the truth and teacheth the truth He calleth him the spirit of truth saith Iansenius because he is the author of all truth and the only giuer of pure and sound truth For he onely teacheth the truth without mixture of any falshood or error Also he only teacheth the truth wherein the saluation of man consisteth In the second place you haue followed the vulgar Latine against the truth of the Greeke and sense of the text The Greek is All that I haue told you not as you translare it All that I shall say vnto you It is the praeter tense saith your B. Iansenius not the future in the Greeke So do Pagnin Vatablus and Montanus translate it The holy Ghost saith Theophylact shall make you vnderstand those things that are obscure and hard For those things that seeme hard vnto you I told you when I remained with you Your interlined Glosse referreth teaching to the vnderstanding and putting in mind to the will He shall teach you saith the Glosse that you may know and suggest that you may will Tell me then why I may not gather from hence that the Church shal not erre in manners or at least shall haue true faith in heart not onely in profession But it is certain that it is possible the greater part of a Councell yea and the Pope himselfe may be without true faith and it is enough to make a man a member of your church that he professe outwardly By all truth our Sauiour meaneth all truth necessary to saluation saith Iansenius So your Glosse Theophylact referreth it to the truth of those things which were shadowed out in the law and by the discouerie of the truth to be abolished Hugo restraineth it to all truth concerning Christ himselfe But let vs take all truth as largely as you can reasonably conceiue it Wil it follow therupō trow you that therefore the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith May not the Church be taught all truth by the holy Ghost and yet teach some deuice of her owne which she neuer learned of him It is one thing to teach a man all truth and another to keepe him so that he shal deliuer nothing but that truth Your Minor therefore is false because this first part of it is so A. D. §. 5. The charge and commission is plaine in S. Mathew Euntes docete omnes gentes Going teach all nations And in S. Marke Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni creaturae Going into the whole world preach the Gospell to euery creature A. W. The charge which our Sauior gaue for preaching the Gospell to all nations was no commaundement to his Church that is to the companie of the beleeuers or to the Cleargie as you speake in all ages but a commission to the Apostles and first Disciples for the performance of that dutie The reason why it is deliuered so at large may be gathered out of Mathew 10. ch where at their first sending they were limited to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel and barred from going to the Gentiles Go not saith our Sauiour into the way of the Gentiles and into the cities of the Samaritans enter not but go rather to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel And that this charge belongeth not to men now a dayes it is euident because neither doth our Sauiour bestow the gift of tongues to that purpose as he did on those whom he sent to that worke neither can we haue any calling to such a purpose hauing no gifts for it yet do not we denie but that it is lawfull for Princes who haue by conquest or otherwise the gouernment of strange nations to see that they be instructed in the faith yea we thinke this lieth vpon them as a necessary dutie Neither do we barre any man of taking whatsoeuer oportunitie God shall giue to preach the Gospell to any people A captiue maide was by the blessing of God made the meanes of conuerting the Iberians from heathenisme to Christianitie the King of that people as the historie saith becoming the Apostle of his nation Frumentius and Aedesius being caried into India when they were yong were afterward employed by God for the instructing of the Indians in true religion But your minor is not proued by that commission Christ commanded his Apostles and Disciples in the beginning of the Church to preach to all nations therefore the Church hath commission to do the like now Besides this charge was layd vpon euery one of the Apostles and all the disciples so furnished with the gift of tongues according as the Apostles thought it meete to employ them Doth this commandement bind your church that is either your Pope who wil not preach at home much lesse will he go abroade to all quarters of the world or your Councels who seuerall are not the church And this charge lay vpon them to whom it was giuen seuerally and was not a matter to be performed by all together in one place Therefore your minor is false also in the second part of it concerning the charge which you say is giuen to
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
maintained The Philosophers indeed as Thomas saith had a kind of notion of some points thereof but they had no certaintie as well because they were corrupted with errors as for that very few of them are found to haue agreed in the same truth But in the Church is certaine knowledge and truth Which as Caietan saith is vpheld aloft in it because it is auowed reuerenced and honored aboue all things and it is so founded in the Church that out of it it is not to be found This is the reason as they truly say why the Church is called a pillar Thomas addeth that it is termed the ground in respect of others because men cannot be confirmed in the truth but by the sacraments of the Church This testimonie of Austine is alledged by you otherwise then it was written by him For whereas he spake of that which had then alreadie bene resolued of by the whole Church you make him speake indefinitely of any thing that pleaseth the Church turning iam placuit into placet But we must vnderstand that he writing in that place concerning the rebaptizing of heretickes which question had bene agreed vpon as he saith in the former chapter before the hatching of Donatus heresie saith that the iudgement of the Church in that case is to be held as agreeable to the Scripture This might the Reader haue seene in his words if you had not changed the tense in placet and left out etiam in hac re in the beginning of the sentence The truth of the Scriptures saith Austin is held by vs euen in this thing If you reply farther that the reason which Austin vseth is generall for all questions whatsoeuer namely the authoritie of the Church commended by the Scriptures which cannot erre I answer you first that we haue seene Austins iudgement directly to the contrary viz. that whatsoeuer is of necessitie to saluation is plainly deliuered in the Scriptures and that the authoritie of men without Scripture is insufficient to propound any doctrine as a matter of faith and therefore if he should write otherwise in this place we might with good reason make question of his authoritie Secondly I answer that Austine speaketh here of those points onely which are not determinable by Scripture such as he taketh the question of rebaptizing heretickes to be as it appeareth in the words immediatly before those you alledge being also a peece of the sentence by you omitted Although saith Austin there be no example to be brought out of the Scriptures concerning this matter yet the truth of the same Scriptures is euen in this matter also held by vs when we do that which hath now alreadie pleased the whole Church c. Now in such cases as cannot by Scripture be decided who would or may be so presumptuous as to withstand or mislike the practise of the church in all places Surely the authoritie of the church is so far commended in the Scriptures that it ought in all things of such nature to ouerweigh our iudgement and incline our affection to the liking of that which is agreed on by so generall a consent of so many churches in all nations Therefore that which you gather out of Austins words of following the iudgement of the church in an obscure question is to be restrained to such questions as cannot be determined by the Scriptures and those are few or none of any importance of necessitie to saluation none at all or else your consequence will be nothing worth Austin saith that in questions not determinable by Scripture we must follow the iudgement of the church Therefore we must follow it in all obscure questions whatsoeuer Austins foundation will not beare your building Is it a good reason to say In cases not prouided for by law custome must beare sway therfore it must be followed in all cases So and so weakly do you dispute It is not enough for you to teach vs new diuinitie but you will driue vs to learne new Latin too Caesar could make men free of Rome but not words Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam to beleeue the Catholicke Church in ordinary Latin is to beleeue that there is a Catholicke Church Credo esse I beleeue there is but you would make the ignorant beleeue that credo Ecclesiam and credo Ecclesiae is all one For how else can this sentence reasonably depend vpon the former We must follow the iudgement of the Church Therfore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam What can you meane by this but I beleeue that is I giue credit to the Catholick Church that is I beleeue that to be true which the Catholicke Church teacheth But the article of the Creed hath no such sense as it may appeare by the other that follow all being alike in respect of our beleefe I beleeue the communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the resurrection of the bodie and life euerlasting To which of these foure dowe giue any such credit But we beleeue that there is a Church of Christ to which all these priuiledges belong He that translated Epiphanius into Latin more curiously then truly made a difference betwixt beleeuing the church and the other articles We beleeue saith he one holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church we confesse one baptisme for the forgiuenesse of sinnes and looke for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come But the Greeke which Epiph. reciteth out of the Nicene creed is alike in all the articles in the Church in the baptisme of repentance in the resurrection of the dead And Paschasius doubteth not to say that the ignorance of some drew the preposition in from the former sentence concerning beleefe in the holy Ghost into the article of the church yet as he sheweth credere Deum in Deum greatly differ That there is a God the Apostle saith the diuel beleeueth but no mā is held to beleeue in God but he that religiously puts his trust in him Cyril also reciteth the articles after the same manner without any difference in the particulars yet with In to euerie one of them and in that sense in which we take them Ruffin as Paschasius before denieth that the Creed saith In the holy Church in the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the resurrection of the flesh Because that were to equall our beleefe of these points with our beleeuing in the Father the Son and the holy Ghost But of these articles we are to beleeue that they are true that there is a Church gathered vnto God that there is a remission of sinnes that there is a resurrection of the flesh So doth Austin if those Sermons be his read and vnderstand it I beleeue the Catholicke Church c. We must beleeue that God will vouchsafe the resurrection of bodies and the forgiuenesse of sinnes And whereas in an other Sermon he saith in the Church so doth he
time for all men know it erred in diuers though not fundamentall if we may gesse by the writings of the learned in those ages or that the Church hath or shall want the performance of Christs promise at any time for a moment But what is all this to the matter we haue in hand Well Let vs see yet what you say A. D. §. 2. Against these men I set downe this assertion The true Church of Christ which the forenamed testimonies of Scripture do commend was and is to continue without interruption till the worlds end This I prooue First out of the verie words of those promises which I cited out of Saint Matthew and Saint Iohn For how can Christ our Sauiour or his holy Spirit be with his Church in such sort as there is promised to wit till the worlds end and for euer and especially as is said in Saint Matthew Omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi All the daies euen to the end of the world vnlesse the Church also be all the daies vntill the end of the world For if the Church for any time daies monthes or years doe cease to be Christ cannot for these yeares moneths and daies be truly said to be with his Church sith he cannot be with that which is not and consequently he cannot be said to haue fulfilled his promise wherein he said he would be with his Church all the daies vntill the end of the world A. W. The men against whom you set downe this Assertion are of your owne making that you might haue against whom to shew your valour once it cannot concerne vs who acknowledge the continuance of Christs Church without interruption till the worlds end As long as these times shall run on saith Austin the Church of God that is the bodie of Christ shall not be wanting vpon earth This is the Church spoken of in as many of these testimonies as are not peculiar to the Apostles namely the elect from time to time not your Romish synagogue wherein many of the reprobate also are included and that as members of your congregation who cannot without dishonour of our Sauiour Christ be accounted parts of his glorious bodie The truth of your Assertion needeth no proofe and the weaknesse of your proofe is a disgrace to your Assertion Christ will be with his Church at all times whensoeuer there are any that beleeue in him not onely whilest the Apostles liue therefore there shall alwaies be some in the world without interruption that shall beleeue in him This is but a loose consequence I grant the conclusion or consequent that there shall be a Church alwaies but I denie that therefore there shall alwaies be one because our Sauiour promiseth to be with it whensoeuer it is Put case our Sauiour had thus spoken I will be with you in your persecution all the daies euen to the end of the world might a man reasonably conclude from hence that therfore the Church shall be alwaies persecuted without any interruption or ease one day from persecution Such is your consequence and as such insufficient to prooue your Assertion A. D. §. 3. Secondly I prooue the same out of an other promise or prophesie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church wherein he saith Portae inferninon praeualebunt aduersus eam the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For how was it true that the gates of hel shall not preuaile if they haue preuailed so much as vtterly to abolish the Church or at least to banish it quite out of the world for so long a time Granting therfore which euery Christiā must needs grant that the prophesies promises of our Sauiour are alwaies fulfilled and that they are vnfallibly true we may not doubt but that the church hath euer bene since Christ his time and shal neuer cease to be in the world A. W. This proofe is little or nothing better then the former thus you conclude If Christ haue promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against his Church then it must continue without interruption till the worlds end But Christ hath promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it Therefore it must continue without interruption till the worlds end I denie the consequence of your maior first because the Church in this place doth not signifie such a companie of men as you by that name vnderstand but the congregation of the elect who by true faith confesse as Peter did and being built vpon our Sauiour the rocke shal neuer be remoued and perish And this promise is made not onely to all ioyntly but to euery one seuerally as it was to Peter and all the rest of the Apostles If there be any saith Origen against whom the gates of hell shall preuaile such a one is neither the rocke vpon which Christ buildeth nor the Church which is built by Christ vpon the rocke Euerie one saith the same Origen that is a follower of Christ by imitation is a rocke or stone But he against whom the gates of hell preuaile is neither to be counted a rocke nor the Church nor part of the Church which Christ builds vpon the rocke Againe whosoeuer is Christs disciple saith the same author is a rocke but many are called and few chosen As if he should haue said that the Church against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile is euery one of the elect and that he against whom those gates do preuaile is none of the elect or church to which that promise of our Sauiour was made Theophylact though he expound the place of the Church somewhat generally yet hee doubteth not to adde that euery one of vs also is the church which is the house of God if therefore we be confirmed in the confession of Christ the gates of hell that is sinnes shall not preuaile against vs. The gates of hell saith your Glosse are sinnes threatnings flatterings heresies whereby they that are weake runne into destruction who are not to be thought to haue built the house of their profession of beleeuing soundly vpon the rocke but vpon the sand that is to follow Christ with a simple and true intent but to haue made a shew for some earthly respect For he that receiueth the faith of Christ with the inward loue of his heart easily ouercometh whatsoeuer outwardly befalleth him Lyra saith that the church here spoken of consisteth of those persons in whō there is true knowledge confessiō of the faith truth not of any men in respect of their power or dignity ecclesiasticall or ciuill because many Princes Popes and other inferiour Christians are found to haue made Apostasie from the faith Luke of Bruges though he will not haue this promise of victorie belong to euery particular member of the church yet he granteth that euery liuing member thereof stedfastly cleauing vnto it may conceiue good hope of triumphing
kingdome which shall haue no end A. D. § 5. Lastly I might confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers Origen Saint Chrysostome S. Bernard and especially of S. Austin who disputing against the Donatists saith thus as rehearsing one of their speeches Sed illa Ecclesia quae fuit omnium gentium iam non est perijt That Church which was of all nations is not now it is perished Vnto which their speech he answereth O impudentem vocem Accounting it great impudencie to say the Church is perished And in the same place he bringeth in the Church as speaking personally thus Quam diu ero in hoc seculo annuncia mihi propter illos qui dicunt Fuit iam non est apostatauit perijt Ecclesia ab omnibus gentibus Et annunciauit nec vacua fuit vox ista Quis annunciauit mihi nisi ipsa via quando annunciauit Ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi How long shall I be in this world tell me in regard of them who say the Church indeed was but it is not now it is become apostata and is perished out of all nations And he told me neither was this word in vaine who told me but the way it selfe to wit Christ who saith I am the way when did he tell Behold I am with you vntill the end of the world A. W. Here is a flourish of names to little purpose especially since these authors you mentiō agree with vs about the true Church that consisteth only of the elect not as you teach of all sorts good and bad elect and reprobate so they make an outward profession of beleeuing But Austin condemneth the Donatists of impudencie for saying that the Church was in their time perished out of the world saue that it remained in a part of Africa amongst them that held with Donatus So would he crie out against you Papists if he liued at this day and heard you complaine that there is no Church in the world but only in Rome in those countries which depēd vpon the Church of Rome Onely Donatus his part as Austin calleth it was the Church with them and onely the Popes part is the Church with you You are not indeed as yet come so farre as they were because some other countries besides Italy are content to be ruled by your Pope but when it shal please God to leaue that strumpet the Church of Rome destitute of friends as her wound is vnrecouerable and she draweth euerie day nearer and nearer to her end then will you take vp the verie same complaint that the Donatists vsed and there shall be no Church at all but in Rome or where the Pope shall lurke in some other corner of the world We denie not that the Church to whom our Sauiour maketh that promise shall continue till the end of the world and we detest Donatus heresie in affirming that it was then to be found onely in Africa But as I said before what maketh this for the continuance of such a Church as you imagine This rather belongeth to the visibilitie and famousnesse of the Church whereof in the next chapter A. D. CHAP. XII That this Church which must be to vs the rule of faith as it must alwaies continue so it must also alwaies be visible A. W. It is yet to prooue and alwaies will be that there is any such Church as must be to vs the rule of faith what should we then striue about the continuance and visibilitie thereof But you must needs be answered according to the counsell of Salomon Lest you be wise in your owne conceit to the hurt of other A. D. §. 1. Now hauing prooued that the true Church of Christ must alwaies continue without interruption till the worlds end it remaineth that I shew also in what manner it is to continue to wit whether it shall alwaies be visible That is to say whether in all ages it was and shall be a companie of men who may be seene and in some sort plainely knowen to be that companie which men are to beleeue by faith to be the true Church of Christ or that it shall be sometime at least inuisible that no man can see those men nor know them to be that companie which we must beleeue to be the true Church of Christ A. W. That the Church of Christ must alwaies continue is a point that needeth no proofe that it is to continue without interruption if we did not beleeue alreadie we should neuer be driuen or perswaded to it by your weake reasons But as me thinks I must be faine to tell you oftner the continuance of the true Church without interruption makes nothing at all for that imaginarie Church of your deuising of the visibilitie whereof you intreat in this Chapter Wherein first you goe about to propound and expound the question then you make a shew of proouing it according to the conceit you haue of it In the propounding of the question for the readers better vnderstanding I must let him know that howsoeuer your words shall alwaies be visible seeme to tie the question onely to the time hereafter to come yet your meaning is to enquire whether the Church of Christ haue not alwaies since his first comming and shall not alwaies till his second comming be apparent and visible This is manifest by your exposition In all ages it was and shall be and by your proofes which at the least in your opinion concerne the whole Church of Christ euer since his comming in the flesh Your exposition rather darkens then cleares the State of the question For who would not thinke by your words that one part of the controuersie betwixt you and vs is whether the men the companie of whom is the church may at all times be seene or no as if we were so voide of sense as to imagine that men could be at any time except by miracle inuisible Do not your words imply thus much I pray you consider them a little with me The question is say you whether the Church be alwaies a companie of men that may be seene If you answer that I must adde that which followeth And in some sort plainly knowen to be that companie I replie that your selfe afterward make those two distinct parts of the question when you expound what is meant by Inuisible that no man say you can see those men nor know them to be that companie wherein you may reasonably be thought first to speake of those mens being seene and secondly of their being knowen to be such a companie But to make short and to speake plaine withall the question of the Churches inuisiblenesse is double First whether a man by his bodily sight can discerne who they are that be members of Christs mysticall bodie or no that is who be elect and who be not This we say herein you agree with vs
course of yours The question is whether the true Church be with you or with vs. You tell vs we shall know that by seeing whether you or we haue the markes of the true Church we accept of this triall How shall we informe our selues what these markes are Tush say you for that matter you must be ruled by the Councels Why but the Councels as you would make vs beleeue were wholly for you and consisted of Popish Bishops what reason haue we then to stand to their iudgment in a controuersie betwixt you vs You will answer that we say they were not Popish We say so indeed and haue prooued it in diuers points as occasion hath bene offered But we adde further that these Councels might erre you denie it How will you perswade vs the contrarie When all is done we must come to triall by the Scriptures or else take your word for it And is it for all this precisenesse to require proofe out of the Scriptures of those marks you would prooue your Church by I haue shewed before that there is no means to know certainly there is any Church of Christ or any Christ but by the Scriptures Are not the Scriptures then the fittest meanes to teach vs by what marks this Church may be knowne The Councels tell vs what they are Who told them the holy Ghost Let it be so But how did he tell them by some reuelation vtterly beside the Scriptures or by truth in the Scriptures If the former we aske how we may be so perswaded The church tels you so Yet again the church How knows the church that they had such reuelatiō What help now but about again to the scriptures Thinke not much then if in this questiō cōcerning the marks of the church we desire to be taught by the Scriptures what those markes are especially since as you professe you may do it so easily but I am afraid you will do it with more ease then truth A. D. §. 3. The true Church is signified to be one by those words of the Canticles Vna est columba mea if we will beleeue the exposition of Saint Cyprian and S. Austin Also we may gather the same out of those words of our Sauiour in which he calleth his Church vnum ouile one sheepfold Also by those places of S. Paul where he termeth the Church vnum corpus one bodie Moreouer Christ our Sauiour praying for his Church did specially intreate and without doubt obtained vt omnes vnum sint that all the members thereof should be one thing to wit that at the least they should all professe one and the same faith all partake of one and the same baptisme and other sacraments all liue vnder one and the same Lord in due subordination and subiection to that vniforme and orderly gouernment of lawful pastors ordained and appointed in the Church by him The true Church of Christ therefore is one Contrary the conuenticles of hereticks are destitute of this marke of vnitie according as Tertullian affirmeth saying Denique penitus inspectae haereses omnes in multis deprehenduntur cum auctoribus suis dissentientes Finally all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders And the reason of this disagreement among heretickes the same Tertullian assigneth very well in the same place saying Variant inter se haeretici dum vnusquisque pro suo arbitrio modulatur quod accepit quemadmodum ea pro arbitrio composuit ille qui tradidit Heretickes do differ in points of doctrine among themselues while as euery one taketh vpon him to fashion the faith which he receiued according to his owne liking or fancie like as he that first deliuered it vnto them did inuent it according to his owne will and pleasure A. W. We are now come to the very point for proofe of your maior that they onely who are one holy Catholick Apostolick Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church is to be knowne belong To make this proofe good you dispute in this manner If One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke be good marks to know the true Church by then they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong But those foure properties One Holy Catholick Apostolick are good markes by which the true Church may be knowne Therefore they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong The consequence of your maior is but weake For these foure properties may be good markes to know the true church by that wheresouer we see them we may be sure there is a true church and yet there may also be some true church where they are not I dispute not whether the true Church may be without these but denie that because these where they are are good markes therefore there is no true Church where these are wanting This proposition though your proofe be lame without it you wholy omit and so propound vs a reason which we need not yeeld to though you were able to proue the minor neuer so sufficiently Your minor as before I answered is true if we rightly vnderstand the meaning of those seuerall properties But the proofe you bring is scarce warrantable All properties of the Church belonging onely thereto and apparent to be seene where they are are good markes to know the Church by But these foure properties are such Therefore these foure are good markes to know the Church by There is a third thing omitted by you necessarily required to make any propertie a good marke viz. that it be such as alwayes agrees to the Church For otherwise it can serue as I answered to your former proposition but only for the halfe dutie of a marke because at some times I may see the Church and not know it for all this marke If I find these properties I may assure my selfe that I haue found the true Church because these neuer are but in the true Church yet if the true Church may at any time be without these as it may for ought contained in your maior then missing my marke I shal be vnable to discerne of the true Church This minor for the first part of it is true in such sense as I granted the former these properties rightly vnderstood belong onely to the true Church If the latter part also be true that they are apparent to be seene doubtlesse truth of doctrine which maketh the Church one must needs be a certaine marke of the true Church though you denie it that prerogatiue Let vs now see how you proue the parts of your minor with this prouiso that though you do proue them yet you are little the nearer because diuers former propositions vpon which this depends remaine still vnproued by you It is a propertie belonging
thy name prophecied and by thy name cast out diuels and by thy name done many great workes And then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me ye that worke iniquitie But it is strange that you should make true inward sanctitie the marke of the true Church and so confidently affirme that no doubt in the Church there are alwaies some holy when as you maintaine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the true Church that he professe outwardly though he haue no one vertue within him at all If all the members of the Church may be void of holinesse how is holinesse a good marke of the Church Certainly it is at the most but accidentall and such as the Church may haue or lacke without being or ceasing to be a Church thereby He is well holpe vp no doubt that must learne how to know the true Church of such teachers You haue prooued after your fashion that the Church is holy now you will prooue that no companie but the Church is holy No sect of heretickes is truly holy All companies of Christians besides that of the true Church are sects of hereticks Therefore no companie of Christians besides that of the true Church is truly holy If by hereticks you vnderstand onely those that erre in some fundamentall points of religion I grant your Maior and Minor As for the conclusion I am resolued of the truth thereof without any proofe from you But if you acount all hereticks who in the error of their iudgement dissent from other Churches of Christ in matters not fundamentall though true I denie your said Maior and affirme that diuers Churches may differ in opinion one from another and continue in that difference maintaine it confidently so they do it not against their knowledge and conscience and yet all of them be true Churches of Christ and truly holy For as long as the opinions a man holds do not cut him off from being a true member of the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ they make him not cease to be a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified But he that beleeueth truly in Iesus Christ and holds no fundamentall error continues by faith a member of our Sauiours mysticall bodie For as the iust liues by faith so wheresoeuer there is true faith there is life also but there is no life out of the bodie of Christ because the spirit of Christ is not to be had but in his bodie And therefore he that by faith remaineth a member of Christs bodie is a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified though not perfectly holy Here we haue the proofe of your Maior such as it is If the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie be opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the rootes of true sanctitie then no sect of heresies is truly holy But the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie is opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the roots of true sanctitie Therefore no sect of hereticks is truly holy If by true Christian faith you meane any particular truth as a Christian ought to beleeue euerie truth of God though not so as that ignorance or misbeleeuing of euerie point can make him cease to be a true Christian I denie the consequence of your Maior I denie your Minor Not euerie heresie but that which is against the foundation onely is opposite to true Christian faith humility vnderstanding by Christian faith such a faith as is necessarily required that a man may be a true Christian by which onely he liues not by beleeuing euerie truth though that be required of him as a dutie of sanctification And so your proofe also is answered A man may haue that faith by which a Christian must liue though he be ignorant or misinstructed in diuers points of doctrine I haue seuered this part concerning humilitie from the former because it seemeth you tooke it to be of more importance and therefore labour more in the proofe of it He that doth not humble himselfe to euerie humane creature for Gods sake but proudly opposeth himselfe against the vniuersall Church cannot be holy But no hereticke doth so humble himselfe and euerie hereticke so oppose Therefore no hereticke can be holy I shewed before that there is no such vniuersall Church as you often name but neuer prooue and therefore this argument grounded vpon opposing against that which is not in regard of such a commaundement as God neuer gaue is idle and vaine More particularly I answer concerning your Maior that although pride be alwaies a sinne yet it may sometimes be found in in a man truly sanctified that in opposition against men in a matter of doctrine But your proposition in regard of the former part of it as you vnderstand it is vtterly false For it is no way against holinesse for a man not to beleeue euery doctrine that men will propound If I or an Angell from Heauen preach any otherwise to you then we haue preached let him be accursed Trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. As for that place of the Apostle which you alledge your owne interpreters expound it not of the Church but of the ciuill Magistrate He cals the office of a King a humane creature saith Caietan because a King is created by the voices or consent of men and he addeth euery that he might take away all distinction betwixt Heathen and Christian kings in respect of obedience to them The Rhemists are yet more against you So he calleth the temporall magistrate say they elected by the people or holding their soueraigntie by birth and carnall propagation ordained for the Worldly wealth power and prosperitie of the subiect to put a difference directly against your interpretation betwixt the humane superioritie and the spirituall Rulers and regiment guiding and gouerning the people to a higher end But what need we any other expositor since the Apostle in the next words directeth vs how to vnderstand it Whether it be vnto the King as vnto the superiour or vnto gouernours as vnto them that are sent of him for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well But let vs take it as generally as you will if it be against humilitie not to be subiect to the Church it is also against it not to be subiect to the King Yet I hope no man is so mad as to say that he refuseth to be subiect to him that doth not absolutely obey him in all things How then can this place proue that it is against true Christian humilitie not to beleeue the Church whatsoeuer she propound to be beleeued None but hereticks do so humble themselues and many dissenting from their brethren in diuers opinions neither deserue to be counted hereticks though they cannot be reclaimed from their errors nor to be held for schismaticks as long as they breake not off communion
see to haue a corrupted roote and could not perceiue it to haue any liuing branches we should haue cause to affirme absolutely that it were dead and not aliue A. W. He that doth not finde that you are a shamelesse slaunderer lookes verie sleightly into your report of the Protestants congregation You finde it is not holy No doubt you are a man of great intelligence and haue made diligent inquirie after the matter But it well becommeth the Pharisaicall pride of your Romish Synagogue to boast of your owne righteousnesse and in comparison of your selues to despise all men Let vs see what euidence you bring to prooue so greeuous an accusation Most of our men you say are euidently more wicked then men which liued both in old time and in later yeares in the Romane Church How euident you make this we will consider by and by For the present I say no more but that you speake craftily to deceiue vs in comparing most of our men with I know not what men that haue liued in the Roman Church There is no question but that generally the most are the worst euerie where because all men are naturally euill and none good but by the especiall grace of God working in them But if you would haue dealt plainely you should haue shewed that most men in our Churches are more wicked then most men that haue liued in your Romish Church since it became the bodie of Antichrist reuealed For we acknowledge that the Church of Rome was somtimes a true Church of Christ yeelding many worthie martyrs confessors and other holy men and women to the honour of the Gospell of Iesus Christ yea we denie not but that euen at this day there are some true Christians in your Churches and that the generall sort of Protestants are inferiour to some amongest you in regard of outward holinesse as for true inward sanctitie neither the one nor the other haue any part of it I meane neither ordinarie Protestants nor the best of your side who continue in the whole doctrine of your Church To prooue that you say against our Church you bring vs in two kinde of witnesses first generally those men that haue seene the conuersation of your Papists and our Protestants then particularly Luther Smidelin In the former consider how vaine a florish it was for you to compare our men now with Papists that liued in old time and to appeale for proofe to them that haue seene both as if you were able to shew vs some men of 700 or 800. yeares old or of 300. or 400 who haue knowne and considered the behauiour of your men and ours As for them that by trafficke or trauaile otherwise haue had sight and experience of both I dare stand to their iudgement in comparing our liues with yours for all parts of outward cariage In which matter I haue bene credibly informed by them whose credit I haue no cause to suspect that the abhomination of your Clergies and peoples liues hath partly bred setled in them a resolute abhorring of your religion to which otherwise they were indifferently affected But you presse vs with Luther and Smidelin who in their earnest exhortations and reproofes accuse our men for increase of sinne after the preaching of the Gospell Is this strange Doth not the holye Apostle tell vs that the Gospell in his time was abused to wantonnesse prophane men which yet made profession of religion taking aduantage of Gods gracious mercie preached in the Gospell to prouoke themselues to sinne Besides the greatest part at the renewing of the Gospell claue vnto Luther rather in a detestation of your religion the falsenesse whereof was most euident to them then in a certaine knowledge of the truth of that which he taught them But of whom spake Luther and Smidelin Of all Protestant Churches How can that be when they knew not the one halfe of them Is it a good reason then to condemne all Protestant Churches or the Protestants Church in generall because Luther and Smidelin complaine against the congregations in which they taught And yet what say they more then the Apostle Paule doth who chargeth the Corinthians with many grosse errors grieuous sinnes yea with such fornication as was not to be heard of among the Gentiles What say you to that sore accusation euen against the ministers of the Gospell All seeke their owne and not that which is Iesus Christs A man of your humour and wisedome would by and by conclude hereupon that the Church of God in the Apostles time was an vnholy congregation If you Iesuits Priests what you are in particular I neither know nor care bestowed as much paines in preaching as you do in plotting treason and hearing consessions such speeches would not seeme any thing strange vnto you But that you may the better perceiue the weakenesse of this your reason hearken a little what is said of your Church What one can you name me saith Bernard among all those that are spirituall rulers that doth not take greater care how he may emptie the peoples purses then how he may roote out their sinnes You say the most of our men are wicked Bernard to quit you for it pronounceth that there is not one of your Cleargie that maketh any conscience of discharging his duetie Haue you forgotten what a Bishop of yours said in the late Councell of Trent least any should thinke that you are better now then you were in Bernardes time The people saith the Bishop are fallen away from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme and the Priestes haue bene their ringleaders to all kinde of lewdnesse Yea Pope Adrian the sixt I am sure you will beleeue him speaking of your Prelates saith that All of them he putteth in himselfe too were declined cuerie one to his owne waies And that there had bene none of them a great while that had done any good no not one of them If such were and be the state of your Cleargie gesse you what the common people be Compare your witnesses and mine and tell me whether we ouermatch you or no both in number and weight Neuer any Saint of our Church Why do you not refute that which we alledge for our selues against this slander We pleade that Adam Abel Enoch Abraham and all the holy men named in the Scriptures with the Martyrs and confessors since our Sauiour Christs comming in the flesh that all the Apostles except Iudas whom we leaue to your Simoniacall congregation yea that many Bishops of Rome were of our Church To al this you reply not so much as one word but tell them that will beleeue you that there neuer was any Saint or holy man of our Church I cannot greatly blame you though you bind your followers to giue credit to you without looking for proofe of that you deliuer For if you should be put to that all were marred But I wil render you a