will grant him to be yours but of those Monkes and these I may say O quantum hic monachus monacho distabat ab illo How much doth your Parsons and other Monkes differ from Beda and those more ancient Friers or Monkes or religious Orders call them as you please Fisher The like may be said of divers others but at this time it may suffice to give this one example to shew that Mr. Rogers naming all those he named spake without Booke or without having at hand or looking into his bookes and that he might as well have named the Pope and Cardinalls and Bishops Priests Monkes and all other religious persons of the present Roman Church to be Protestants as he nameth the said ancient Fathers Rogers And so I will when I come to my Catalogue name Popes Cardinalls Bishops c. for confirmation of my faith whether it be for my Creed which are more principall and proper points or articles of faith or for all those bookes of Scripture which I beleeve or things therein revealed from God Because the testimony of an adversarie for an adversary is most strong and will take away your personall exceptions Thus Paul did cite a Heathen to perswade Heathens yea the inscription of an Altar dedicated to the unknowne God found amongst Heathen Idolls Thus the Fathers Augustine and others in the Primitive Church did cite the Iewes for confirmation of their doctrine and that they did not misaleadge the Prophets and writers of the old Testament Iudaei inimici nostri sunt de chartis inimici convincatur adsarius The Iewes are our enemies out of the bookes of our enemies wee convince our adversaries Augustine upon the 40th Psalme and often in other places Master Fisher or his Second would have exclaimed hereat saying what meanest thou Augustine wilt thou perswade mee that the Iewes are Christians if not why citest thou their bookes nay what meanest thou Paul to cite the Greeke Poets wouldst thou perswade me that they are Christians as if it must follow that they whose testimonie we cite in some things must be our friends in all All the faith of the Protestants is confirmed by the Papists all their explicite all their implicite faith all that belongs to our faith vel per se vel per accidens essentially or accidentally primarie or secundarily as an Article of faith or as an illustration of the same expressed in Scripture and yet the Protestants are no Papists the Papists are no Protestants because the Papists have a new Creed which Protestants deny and I call God to witnesse that I desire to die a thousand deaths rather then to approve it because I assure me it is false in all and in some things blasphemous The Papists have such exercise of Religion worshipping of Images praying to Saints which I abhorre as being Idolatry In discipline also they have such tenents of absolute supreme power over Bishops Kings Lawes oathes as is full of pride sedition usurpation and impiety Now here we differ here I am in the negative and so it doth belong to you to prove the affirmative It is a just law and your owne Master Fisher for these I need not produce testimony seeing I doe not avow maintaine beleeve any such Creed any such practise of Religion any such discipline But for my faith either explicite or implicite all that is revealed by God in his word I may bring my Adversaries to depose for me Paul said unto Agrippa a Iew no Christian Iuvenalis yea a wicked incestuous King if Roman Authors wrong him not incestae dedit hoc Agrippa sorori Yet to this bad man this unconverted Iew Paul saith O King Agrippa beleevest thou the Prophets I know thou beleevest them And may not I say Master Fisher beleeve you the Apostles Creed I know you doe beleeve it I have no other Articles of faith no other primarie propositions of faith againe for the totall object for the secondary propositions of faith contained in Scripture may not I aske you and say Master Fisher doe you beleeve the Bookes of Moses the Psalmes the Prophets and all those Bookes of the Iewish Canon as also all the new Testament I know you doe Master Fisher why then herein is my faith limitted whatsoever doctrine is plainely hence inferred or out of principles of nature I receive as doctrines or truths convincing my understanding but they are no part of my faith After these all doctrines and lawes Ecclesiasticall or civill in the Church or State wherein I live not contradicting the word of God or my conscience I receive with humility May I aske you Master Fisher againe whether the Apostles Creed and those bookes of old and new Testament received by our Church of England had not professors in all ages nay were not professed and beleeved of the Popes and Cardinalls of all ages I know you will not deny but they were so professed why then may not I vouch these Popes and Cardinalls for my selfe as I intend to doe when I come to my Catalogue CHAP. VII Fisher ANd I marvaile why having gone halfe the way as hee saith hee maketh a stop there and doth not with the like audacity goe on in naming other famous Roman Catholikes in every of the other ages Rogers Because Master Fisher offered in like proportion to name and defend Professors of Roman religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent these were your words in the first Paper I received of yours I have gone halfe my journey you not a step in proportion you should have gone as farre as I did especially seeing you would have no other meanes of triall whereas I have and hold other and better meanes to prove my Faith and my Church yet to satisfie others to stop your mouth and to meet you at your owne weapon I undertooke this as a probable forreine humane uncertaine Argument yet such as maketh more for us then for you Fisher Namely such as Gualterus in Latine and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote in English have set downe for members in the Roman Church Rogers If they have done it sufficiently and effectually it had beene the lesse labour for you Mr. Fisher to have transcribed them but wee may guesse what makes you neither take a Catalogue out of them nor make one of your owne after your example I might transmit you to Illiricus his Catalogus testium veritatis or The mysterie of Babylon vvritten by Sir Phillip Morney the learned Lord of Plessis who have performed this for the reformed Churches farre better then yours have done for your Church Yet when I come to the place where you have cited my Catalogue I will make it out but let mee aske you vvhy instead of naming such as professed the Romane Religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent now you put members of the Romane Church as if it were the same a member of the
Romane Church may give testimonie against you and for me Caiphas even then when he persecuted Christ might prophesie truly of Christ Pilate who did crucifie Christ did write that of Christ which was true viz. that hee was King of the Iewes Matthew Paris was a member of the Romane Church who said that your Church did never reject any that came unto her if they brought white or red with them Silver or Gold This member of the Roman Church said that a principall member viz. That Pope Gregorie the seventh did confesse on his death-bed that by the instigation of the devill hee had troubled the world yet this was such a member as that Innocentius the fourth Matthew Paris the then Pope vvrote of him that hee vvas vir probatae vitae Religioris expertae Such a Writer as that Baronius giveth this testimony of him Take away from his Booke his calumnies Anno 996. n. 63 64. invectives taunts and blasphemies against the Apostolick See often repeated and you vvill say it is a golden Commentarie taken vvord by vvord out of the publike Records and very vvell compiled together Thus farre Baronius As if a man should except against a vvitnesse and say you must not believe him in this vvhich he sayes against me but in all things else you may believe him hee speakes nothing but vvhat is upon publike Record Cajetane was a learned member of your Church and yet he held the Canon of Scripture as vvee doe contrarie to that vvhich the Councell of Trent hath defined Sixtus Senensis vvas a member of the Roman Church and yet hee did denie some part of the Scripture to be Canonicall which the Councell of Trent defined for Canonicall and that after the Councell Bellarm. de Verbo Dei l. 1. c. 7. I will fit you with many such members in my Catalogue Fisher Neither can I see any reason why hee did not with like audacitie goe on in naming other famous Romane Catholickes in every Age but that as it seemeth hee was not resolved whether hee were better to put in his Catalogue the names of damned Haeretickes which disagree in divers points of Faith from all ancient and present Pastors and Doctors of the Church even from the Protestants themselves Rogers Who you meane by these Haeretickes I know not and therfore I need not reply unto you herein if you had laid that imputation upon us I would have enlarged my selfe in the defence but you say they differ in points of Faith from the Protestants Fisher Or else to put in names of Popes Cardinals Bishops Priests Monkes and other religious men whose Writings and profession of life palpably shew that they held the present Roman Doctrine and communicated with the Roman Church Rogers I have answered you already that I will name Popes Cardinals Bishops Priests Monkes and others of your Church and why but such as neither their Writings nor profession of life doe palpably shew that they held the present Roman Faith If their Writings expresse what you say I will yeeld but that their Roman profession of life should include the now present Roman Faith I deny and besides what I formerly spake concerning your Writers I will adde some few instances now Gratian. Can Comp. de consecr dist 2. Gelasius was a Pope and yet hee held your present halfe Communion to be Sacriledge and decreed thus Aut integra suscipiant aut ab integris arceantur Let them receive the Communion in both formes or in neitheâ— Nich Lyranus was a Catholick and yet hee held the Canon of Scripture contrary to that of the Councell of Trent as Bellarmine confesseth So did Hugo and Thomas de Vio two Cardinals Irenaeus Basil Chrysostome Augustine and others whom I cited before cap. 4. were Bishops and yet they held the fulnesse and perfection of Scripture without the supply of unwritten Traditions contrary to the Councell of Trent Ierome was a Priest and a Monke yet denied those Books to be Canonicall which we deny contrary to that the Councell of Trent hath taught and decreed As the hand of a man may smite himselfe and yet continue a member of his body so these might be members of the Roman Church and yet give testimonie in something against your Church The Embassador De Ferrias of France was a member of the Roman Church and a French man Histor Concil Trid when in the Councell of Trent speaking of the miseries of France hee said If they should demand why France is not in peace hee could answer nothing but that which Iehu said to Ioram How can there be peace there remaining and concealed the words following but added You know the Text. The Cardinall of Loraine was a principall member of the Roman Church and the second Clergie man in the Latine Church yet hee speaking of the miseries of France said in the Councell of Trent If you would demand who hath caused this tempest and fortune I can say nothing but this That this fortune is come by our meanes cast us into the Sea By Vs hee must understand the Roman Clergie Iudas that betrayed Christ gave a true testimonie against himselfe when hee said J have sinned in betraying innocent blood And the limbs of Antichrist may give a true testimonie against Antichrist Now whereas you say that they communicated with the Roman Church I grant they did in some things or else they had not beene members of that Church but not in all for not in those things they did disavow reprove condemn and that this may the better be understood I will enlarge my discourse herein CHAP. VIII What it is to communicate with others How farre wee yet communicate with the Roman Church and wherein wee refuse to communicate COmmunio est multorum unio Communio quid Communion is the union of many They that agree in one opinion are so farre united they are one They that enjoy any thing in common are so farre united Rom. 12. The Church is one body 1 Cor. 12. Christians are severall members of this one body as therefore the members being many are united in one body and doe communicate in divers of the selfe same things from that one body and communicate one unto another the service of those things that are proper unto them as they are severall members So in the Church all Christians make but one body collective which are united together by many things some outward some inward some both outward and inward because it is corpus vivum a living body wherein there is saith Saint Augustine a soule Augustin Breviculo Collat. 3. Collat. 9. and a body The soule are the inward gifts of the holy Ghost faith hope and charity c. The body are the outward profession of faith and receiving of Sacraments Whence it comes to passe that some are of the soule and of the body of the Church and therefore united to Christ their Head both inwardly and outwardly these are most
evills of this whole age ibidem The Queene Theodora did raise one Iohn a Minister of Ravennas whom she shamefully loved to be Pope Such was the unfortunate condition of the holy Church of Rome at that time that all things were governed and altered at the pleasure of a powerfull Whore Lando was no true Pope n. 12. d An. 915. n. 3. Iohn the 10 was an Intruder a Theefe a Ruffian e An. 925. n. 12. Quo turpior nullus cujus ingressus insamissimus exitus infandissimus dignus quem infamis foemina infami opere in Petri solium intrusisset The filthiest of all men who entred the Popedome shamefully and ended wickedly a fit man to be thrust by an infamous woman into the Chaire of Saint Peter Note the visibility of the Church of Rome O what was then the face of the holy Church of Rome was it not most foule and filthy when powerfull and base Whoores did rule all at Rome at whose pleasure Sees were changed Bishops were made and which will make a man tremble to heare and is more wicked then can be spoken their lovers falsly termed Popes thrust into Peters Chaire who had never been written in the Catalogue of Roman Bishops had it not been thereby to reckon the yeares and set downe the times For who can say that these men thrust in by Whoores without Law were lawfull Roman Bishops There was no man at all of the Cleargies Election or consent all Canons were silenced Decrees of Popes smoothered ancient Traditions and old Customes in chusing the Pope were banished the holy Ceremonies and former use were wholly extinguished Lust backed with worldly power mad Dormiebat tunc planè ut apparet sopore Christus and franticke with a desire of rule challenged all unto her selfe It appeareth plainely that Christ was then in a dead sleep in the ship when the strong winds thus blowing the ship it selfe was covered with the waves Ista non vtdere dissimulans I say hee was asleepe who dissembling as if hee did not see those things did suffer them so to be done and did not rise to vengeance And that which did seeme worse there were no Disciples who with their cries would awake their Master thus sleeping for they were all asleepe that they snored againe And what kind of Presbyter and Deacon Cardinals shall wee thinke were chosen by such Monsters seeing nothing is more firmly graffed in nature then this that like should beget like And who can doubt but that these did in all things consent unto those by whom they were chosen And who will not easily believe that they did imitate them and tread in their steps And who cannot understand that all these did wish that Christ had slept for ever Anno 912. n. 8. and should never wake nor rise in judgement to examine and punish their offences Thus farre Baronius But you will aske mee what needeth so much labour in shewing that wee had some bad times and some bad Popes for so you are used to extenuate all that wee alleadge in this kind You say that Christ himselfe having but twelve Apostles had one devill amongst them But what I have alleadged here doth shew that divers of those who supplied the place of Christ himselfe his Vicars generall upon earth as you terme them men to whom the Church is essentially joyned and must be obedient were devils monsters the dearlings of Whores some of them Bastard children of Popes by these notorious Whores and all their Priests Deacons and Cardinals like themselves so Atheisticall in their courses and desires as to wish that Christ might sleepe everlastingly and never rise to judgement nay the visible government of the Roman Church which you will have to be the onely Church was not so much in them as in these whores who made and unmade Bishops and Popes without any regard of Canons or Customes Ecclesiasticall and this wickednes was praevalent not for a few years or a few Popes but for this whole Age Toto hoc saeculo saith Baronius which is for 100 yeares Yet you Romanists will have all Christians in the world to behold and to be led by the visible Roman Church though the face and whatsoever was visible therein was most foule and filthy not onely in him who sate in the Chaire of Peter as you say but also in all his Consistorie in all his Deacons Priests and Cardinals But you will say These were no Popes then will I say that by your Doctrine you had no Church for the Pope is now a part of the definition of the Church with you and therefore no Pope no Church You know the Rule A parte definitionis negative sequitur argumentum Or will you say for so Baronius doth Shall any man shall all men in the world pin their soules upon the sleeves of such Monsters cleave unto them and be obedient unto them only because they sate in the Chaire though usurpingly And will you undertake to prove your Church to have had visible Professors in all Ages when in a whole Age there was nothing visible but what your selves are ashamed to looke backe upon You will have much adoe to find a Catalogue of names in this Age because you must not goe out of the Roman Church but wee acknowledge the Greeke Aethiopian Indian Armenian Syrian Churches have a larger scope and shall more easily passe through this difficultie seeing there was in this Age in Armenia one Nico magnus Baron An. 961. n. 4 8 10. Anno 976. n. 2. 980. n. 7 8 9. sanctus Orientis Praeco a great and holy Preacher of the East and the Church of Greece had in this Age two men famous for learning and holinesse Nilus and Nico as the same Baronius confesseth CHAP. XVIII Shewing a threefold Catalogue of Names from the Age wherein my former Catalogue did end unto Luthers time of such as professed and received the Faith and Sacraments of the reformed Church whom the Papists call Protestants MY first Catalogue Mr. Fisher shall be of Bishops Pastors and Writers of the Latine Church such as are acknowledged by your Church for Orthodox men of a right Faith Ab Anno 800 ad 900. Agobardus Episcopus Rem Rabanus Maurus Moganti Hincmarus Rem Amalarius Fortunatus Leo 3. Episcopus Rom. Ionas Aurelianensis Walafridus Strabo Theodulphus Aurelianensis Ab Anno 900 ad 1000. Baron An. 901. n. 10. Theodulphus Episcopus legatus Regis Franc. in Concilio Ovetensi Ermenegildus primus Archiepisc Ovetensis in Gallaecia Baron An. 900. n. 10. Fulco Remensis laudatissimus ille Archiepiscopus columen Francorum Baron An. 904. Grimbaldus Presbyter vir magnae sanctitatis in Anglia Iohannes Papa 9. qui tribus Conciliis à se celebratis summam sibi laudem comparavit velut alter Ieremias in cujus Epitaphio inter alia haec habentur Conciliis docuit ternis qui dogma salutis mox Et firmata fides quem
THE PROTESTANT CHVRCH EXISTENT AND Their FAITH professed in all Ages and by Whom With a Catalogue of Councels in all Ages who professed the same Written By HENRY ROGERS D. D. Prebendary of HEREFORD LONDON Printed by RICHARD BADGER 1638. TO THE RIGHT REVEREND FATHER IN GOD GEORGE LORD Bishop of Hereford His Honourable DIOCESAN RIght Reverend Father in God and my Honourable Lord my booke I dedicate unto God as I have my selfe and all my labours long since I present it to your Lordship as the person to whom under God and the King I am bound to give an account of my life and labours in my vocation A beneficed man and a Preacher I have lived in your Diocesse these thirty yeares many conferences I have had with Papists many small tracts have I written upon the request of some of our Church who desired satisfaction in some points diverse bookes have I briefly answered with marginall notes or analyticall resolution of their discourse intending them for private satisfaction Only one escaped that happinesse of privacy a short answer to Mr. Fisher which I gave being in London far from my bookes farther from repose or quietnesse to study in a case which made me fall on my knees and pray unto God to keepe to me the best things whereby I might doe him service In maximis angustiis I wrote that short answer to Mr. Fisher I may call it my Benoni to which Mr. Fisher or one for him made a reply and this is my defence of it and our Church It is not any great conceit that I have of my labours or my owne strength that causeth mee to publish it no I say to my selfe as was said to a weake Souldier that girte on his armour to goe and fight Non tali auxilio nec defensoribus istis Tempus eget And God be thanked we have many better and those of late whose workes for subject and conformity of opinions have that correspondency with this of mine though for acutenesse and learning beyond it as that amongst other motives caused me to publish it seven or eight yeares after that it was finished The bragging of the Romanist their false hopes of the change of Religion and the vaine feares of others have made me rub up my old harnesse and to gird me to the battell not daunted with the insolency of some Papists nor disquieted with the causelesse feares of some of our side who while they would seeme zealous against the Roman party little consider by their injurious traducing the Church they are members of and the happy government of it that they help their enemies more then their most professed Champions For my part as I delivered in a Sermon before your Lordship at your first Visitation I am assured that while we have the Scriptures publike and private in our mother tongue and solid Catechizing in the fundamentall points wee need not feare Popery This they well knew that persecuted with Fier and Fagot whosoever had the New Testament or Old or as much as the Creed the Lords Prayer and the tenne Commandements in the English Tongue they well knew that to reade the Scriptures and there finding there is one Mediator betweene God and man the man CHRIST IESUS would make them that read it though simple to suspect the popish mediation of Saints departed 2. The learning of the Lords Prayer with this injunction pray thus Our Father would make the simplest to collect after this manner if I may goe to God himselfe and am so commanded by Christ and have the example of the Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles praying unto God and not unto men or Angels with a promise from Christ Aske and you shall have and an invitation Come unto me all ye that travaile and are heavy laden and I will refresh you why should I pray unto Saints without command promise or patterne nay without faith how shall they call on him on whom they have not beleeved In quem non crediderunt Vnlesse they will say which is a degree beyond ordinary Popery that we may credere in hominem vel Angelum 3. The Creed being learned would make the simple consider when hee heareth of other Articles of Faith not therein contained as traditions unwritten equalled to the words of God the Popes supremacy to be the prime article of the faith as Bellarmine to Blackwell doth call it transubstantiation invocation of Saints veneration of Images purgatory seven Sacraments Et quicquid novi semper apportat Roma new articles new monsters to say thus they are not in my Creed it was no part of my promise in Baptisme no covenants of mine I was made a Christian without any such conditions any such articles 4. In the Commandements the simple doe finde the Papists forgery if they blot out the 2d. Commandement or any part thereof or their Idolatry in worshipping Images if they leave the text whole and uncorrupted 5. Having the whole Scriptures in their mother tongue they finde the Papists prohibiting of marriage and of meates a doctrine of divels their exercise of Religion in an unknowne tongue to be but a tinckling Cymball Antichrist to bee that man of sinne which exalteth himselfe above all that is called God or that is worshipped to be the Whore that sitteth on seven hils that sitteth in the Temple of God c. These things being commanded by the King and earnestly pressed by the Bishops in their severall Visitations make mee confident as every moderate person is that they whose zeale against Rome is good doe feare the alteration of Religion without cause nay have much to answer for both to God and man for cherishing such uncharitable suspitions in themselves and others Three things in your Lordships Visitation did cause me much to reverence your person and place 1. Your personall presence in most parts of Your Diocesse 2. Your admonition to the Ministers to study and preach the Scriptures and to Catechize carefully 3. Your Lordships laying of hands upon Children after Your Lordship had examined some by Your selfe and the rest by Your Clergy a thing of late neglected and therefore lay heavie upon Your Lordship at this first comming when there came so many that Your Lordships spirits were almost spent and many were almost crushed with the thronge I said then to Your Lordship it was a great comfort to see the Church thus to suffer violence And from all other violence the Lord of heaven deliver us to whose protection my prayers daily commend Your Lordship Henry Rogers The Preface to the Christian READER SOme passages betweene Master Fisher and my selfe about twelve yeares past were published and Printed without my knowledge Master Fisher delivered to divers Parsonages of good qualitie certaine propositions concerning the Protestant Faith Church and Succession to which though then farre from home and from my Bookes I gave a short Answer with a Catalogue of Orthodox Writers who professed our Faith in the first 700 yeares To this Answer of mine
some yeares after a reply was published whether by Master Fisher himselfe or some other in his behalfe I know not a sight whereof I could not get in a yeare or two after To that reply of his I answer in this ensuing Discourse with a Catalogue from the seventh Centurie to the fifteenth of such as professed our faith which Catalogue of perticular men being finished I have added a Catalogue of Councels in all Ages who professed our faith This booke of mine was finished seven or eight yeares past as a noble personage now imployed by our Soveraigne King in forraign parts can testifie who bestowed some books upon me which were very usefull unto mee in this Worke which he did read as did also many learned Doctors of our Church of Hereford D. Kernit D. Best D. Hoskinsed I was slow in publishing it having no desire to be in Print but the perswasions of some of our Church and the brags of some of our Adversaries saying that I neither had nor could answer Master Fisher caused me to present it to the licencer And so to send it into the view of the world requesting the Christian Reader first to peruse the former booke printed without my knowledge Secondly to observe how my Adversarie doth passe by many principall things in my first answer without any mention at all of the same Thirdly that of what he hath written against me I passe not by any one sentence unanswered My Booke hath two generall heads First what our Faith and Church is and how proved primarily and properly by Scriptures secondarily and improperly by reasons and humane testimony Secondly that by this way of a Catalogue of those who taught their faith or Trent Creed as distinct from ours they cannot prove their succession for many reasons alleadged by me in the thirteenth Chapter of this booke as first the uncertainty of humane testimony Secondly their purging out of Authors that which makes against them Thirdly their forging of Authors and Councels fourthly their slighting and abasing of the Ecclesiasticall Historians of the Primitive Church example whereof shall be shewed as occasion shall be offered I will conclude this my Preface with those words of Saint Augustine Ep. 48. Necesse est incerti sint qui pro societate sua testimonio utuntur non divino sed suo But let us with St. Augustine cleave to the Scriptures and say with him Ecce ubi didicimus Christum Ep. 166. ecce ubi didicimus Ecclesiam Loe where we have learned Christ loe where we have learned to find his Church Give the glory to God for what is well and impute the imperfections and defects to my weaknesse who will to my poore ability be Thine in the Lord. H. R A Table of the Contents CHAP. I. THe rules of answering 1. to lay downe his Adversaries words and 2. to answer to every particular Vel concedendo vel negando vel distinguendo either by granting denying or distinguishing by explicating of ambiguous termes observed by Mr R. but not by Mr. Fisher a comparison from the Dog drinking of Nilus and Anthony flying from Actium 1 CHAP. II. 1. The occasion of this Discourse 2. Mr. Fishers termes ambiguous 3. Distinctio vocis and definitio rei neglected by Master Fisher though requested by his Adversary 4. These are the grounds of all doctrinall Discourses 5. Master Rogers answer to Master Fishers first question That he will shew who professed the faith of the Reformed Churches in all Ages 6. Master Fisher cannot shew the names of Iesuites in all Ages 2 CHAP. III. 1. Master Fishers Rule That probatio est affirmantis non negantis They who affirme are to prove admitted by Master Rogers 2. A Church may be proved though the particular names not recorded as a Christian Church in this Iland before Austin the Monke came hither 3. M. Fisher doth confound two questions and commits a fallacie secundum plures interrogationes 4. Master Fisher by his rule of names in all Ages may be denyed to be a man to be descended of Adam if he admit no other proofe 5. Master Rogers Argument to prove himselfe a Christian confirmed out of Bellarmine Baronius Valenza c. 6. What is essentiall and necessary to an explicit faith set downe at large 7. The covenant of faith the same in all Christian Churches of the world Latine Roman and Reformed the Greeke Armenian c. 5 CHAP. IV. Of the totall object of faith as it includeth not onely the primary essentiall matters of faith but also the secondary and accidentall matters contained in the revealed truth And that from hence demonstrations may be drawne to prove the Protestants to be a Church 13 CHAP. V. Shewing out of Saint Augustine that there is no other way to demonstrate a Church to be a true Christian Church but by the word of God 120 CHAP. VI. The Roman polemicke Theologues likened to the Indian Apes that appeared to Alexander and to the Ligurians the difference betweene the ancient and present Church of Rome between the Ancient Monkes and the present the title of Roman Catholique a most impudent contradiction Two Impostors submitting themselves as two Patriaachs to the Church of Rome The whole faith of the Protestants confirmed by Popish Writers Yet the Romanists have another new faith of their owne 32 CHAP. VII Master Fisher pressed by his own rule to prove the new Creed wherein he is Affirmative we Negative 2. A member of the Church of Rome may beare witnesse against the Church of Rome 41 CHAP. VIII What it is to communicate with others how farre we yet communicate with the Roman Church and wherein we refuse to communicate 45 CHAP. IX 1. Some distinctions justified 2. Master Fisher puts false Titles over his booke as thus Master ROGERS his weake Grounds over his 26 and 27 pages and yet not one word spoken in both those pages of any of Master Rogers Grounds And page 28. Master Rogers most weake Arguments and yet not one Argument of Master Rogers mentioned in all that page Master Fisher changeth his termes for Faith puts Doctrines 52. CHAP. X. Master Rogers definition of a Protestant Church conformed The same definition agreeth with all true Churches in the world the rule of defining Bellarmines definion of the Church confuted together with the Romish Doctrine that none can be saved out of their Church 56 CHAP. XI M.F. puts false Titles upon the pages of his Booke As Master Rogers his most weak Grounds or Arguments where there is â—â—mention of his Grounds or Arguments The Protestants a true Church not the true Church Histories no good proofe of the Church All Doctrines not points of Faith M. Fishers reasons to prove that the Teachers of true and false Doctrine are to be found in Histories answered 71 CHAP. XII Negatives depend upon Affirmatives Master Fishers Tautologies He saith Master Rogers granteth what he never did grant 86 CHAP. XIII Foure Reasons to prove that Master Fishers
he with most injurious termes to abuse penè universam Ecclesiam Christi ab ortu Solis usque ad occasum almost all the Church of Christ from the rising of the Sunne to the setting of the same meaning those who differed from Rome so that here this Father did distinguish the universall Church from the Roman And againe the question is saith he Vtrum Sabbato jejunandum sit whether Christians ought to fast upon the Saturday which question I would he did so demand or so affirme as not openly to blaspheme the Church dispersed over the circumference of the Earth except the Roman and some few more of the West And againe in the same Epistle he saith Non tibi persuade at urbem Christianam sic laudare Sabbato jejunantem ut cogaris orbem Christianum daemnare praudentem Let him not perswade thee so to commend a Christian City viz. Rome fasting on the Saturday as to cause thee to condemne the Christian world denying that day Here Rome was a Christian City but the Church besides is termed the Christian world Seeing then that the Roman Church is but a part say not that it is the whole Church out of which no man can be saved This was the claime of Donatus and some of his distracted followers to stile themselves the whole Church as you do they being as you are in proportion to the Catholike Church that is the whole Church but frustum de frusto majore precisum a part of that Westerne Church which was but a part of that Catholike Church of the whole Church Doe not play with the Church as Martial did with Tongilianus Anaxagoras shall sooner perswade me nivem esse nigram that the snow is black then you shall make me to deny one of the most manifest principles that are in the world which every child understandeth and doth assent unto if he be but seven yeers old viz. That Omne totum est majus aliqua sua parte the whole is greater then any part thereof a child knowes this sooner then he knowes the right hand from the left divide him an apple and aske him whether he will have all or a peece he will say all aske why he will say it is more Divide him his bread and butter in peeces and aske him whether he will have a part or the whole he will chuse the whole because it is the bigger The Roman Church is not the Aethiopian Church nor the Greeke Church nor the Armenian Nestorian Indian Church all these and many more are but parts of the Catholike Church Will you say that any part of this whole Church is as bigge as the whole A greater degree of stupidity then this did I never reade or heere of Would you make us lesse then children more simple then infants When you tell us of your Roman Catholike Church in that sense you expound it not as concurring with but including the whole Catholike Church Thus much for making the Catholike Church to be the Roman Church Rome was a sound and eminent part and member of the Church before the seventh age but in that age it began to bee troubled with the head-ach when the Bishop of Rome claimed that proud swelling title of universall Bishop which Gregory the first so much condemned in succeeding times that Church became heart-sick and more diseased I speake as I conceive then any one eminent member of the Catholike Church her diseases her heresies her usurpations innovations superstitions Idolatries we have left that is her Papacie not that faith by which she was and is a Church though diseased sick all over infected with a leprosie as I would shunne a man that is a leper and yet not deny him to be a man But Beda was a member of the Catholike Church of the Roman Church such as then it was not such as now it is hee was not sicke of your greatest diseases Neither is your Argument of force as it is drawne from the title of Monke no more then if I should conclude him to be of my religion only by saying that he was a Presbyter of the English Church as now I am Let us see your Argument in forme All Roman Monkes of all ages are of one faith of one Church But Beda was a Roman Monke 900 yeeres past Ergo He is of the same faith and Church with the now Roman Monkes Thus much for you Now for my selfe let me make the like Argument from St. Beda as a Presbyter of the English Church and you know that title of Presbyter is more frequently given to Beda then Monke All Presbyters of the English Church in all ages are of one faith one Church But Beda was a Presbyter of the English Church and so am I. Ergo Beda was of the same faith and Church with me and all other Presbyters of the now English Church This is your kind of arguing sillie and simple The major is most false a meere aequivocation the Monkes of the Primitive Church agreeing with your Monkes only in name but not in nature in signification in definition Zozomen l. Hist Eccl l. 1. c. 13. The first Monachi were such as in time of persecution fled into the Wildernesse and there lived yours contrarily take this order upon them and live in cities and Courts of Princes Ibidem Hieron ep ad Pauli or rather single life 2. They medled not with civill affaires yours especially your Iesuits are great States men 3. They had no vowes yours have vowes of chastity poverty and obedience which Bellarmine maketh essentiall to Religious orders so that they are not of one nature they differ essentially 4. They were Lay and were forbidden by divers Canons to meddle with the Priests office These have intruded so far into the Priests office as that they must yeeld the place to them And your Bishops in your Trent Councell did complaine much of them Beda was no such Monke as now you have Quibus caruit Ecclesia eo tempore cum fuit optima Agrippa de Van. Scien Such as the Church had not when it was best They lived by their labour yours by the sweat of other mens browes they fared hard Palingenius yours duntaxat ventri veneri somnoque vacantes These onely eate and drinke and whore and sleepe so that these later Monkes are as opposite to the former as necessitated and voluntary professions as retired solitary men from Statesmen as Votaries from not Votaries Lay-men from Priests men of sparing diet from Epicures Beda was a Monke before this definition was reade Monachus est cadaver mortuum è Sepulchris egressum pannis funebribus involutum à Diabolo inter homines agitatum A Monke is a dead carkasse comming out of the Grave wrapped in his winding sheet driven amongst men by the divell Beda lived 700 yeeres or thereabouts before your Pope Pius the 2. said that a wandring Monke was the devills slave If you prove St. Beda to be such a one I
perfectly of the Church for they are as living members in the body Againe some are of the soule but not of the body as those which are instructed to beleeve the principles of Christian Religion but are not yet baptized or those who are excommunicated if they retaine faith and love which may bee done Lastly some are of the body but not of the soule as those who have no inward vertue but for some temporall ends do professe the faith and partake of the Sacraments under the government of Pastors and such are as the haire or nailes or ill humors in mans body Thus farre Saint Augustine This last doth make a man to bee a part of the visible Church Bellar. de Eccl. l. 3 c 2. As then in man there is the inner and the outward man the soule and the body the one is visible the other is not visible So in the Church there is a mysticall Church which is not seene to bodily eyes and an outward profession of Christ and receiving of Sacraments which makes the visible Church we can see the men we can see them baptized comming to the Temple receiving the Sacraments we can heare them make confession of the Christian faith call upon God the Father by Christ all these things are sensible and most of them visible as the men their meeting their receiving of the Sacraments the lifting up of their hands in prayer the opening of their lips in confession of their faith in prayer and thankesgiving Where there is a society of men thus professing the faith of Christ and partaking of his Sacraments under the government of Pastors there is a visible Christian Church These doe communicate in the same Sacraments in the same confession of faith and that maketh them to be of one Church of the visible Church though they be never so far remote one from another and unknowne one to another in the same essence of faith the principall and necessary articles whereof are contained in the Apostles Creed in the same essentiall forme of baptisme whereby men are admitted into the visible Church we communicate with the Roman Church and so doe all Christian Churches in the world that is in all that which must necessarily be professed and done to make a Church Now whereas my adversarie saith that those Popes Cardinalls Bishops others named by Gualterus and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote did communicate with the Church of Rome that will not serve his turne for so doe we communicate with them in many things in the Apostles Creed in the principall Sacraments in the Iewish Canon of the old Testament and in all the new This doth make them and us a Church in these we have not left them but in their new Creed in their bookes added to the ancient Canon of the Bible in their unwritten Traditions in other their new false hereticall doctrines in their superstitious practise of Religion and Monarchicall discipline tyrannizing over the families of Christ These we hold to be the corruption sicknesse leprosie of their Church there we have left viz their Papacie not their Church we left them as an unsound Church not as a Church Thus the Primitive Church did deale with the Heathens Iewes and Hereticks as Saint Augustine writeth to the Donatists they retained what was good amongst them These Donatists held their owne society alone to bee the Church and excluded all others their owne baptisme to be true effectuall and no other so that they rebaptized those which were baptized by others in defence of their allegation objected thus Vsqueadeo meum est quod à me unicum datum est nec ab ipsis sacrilegis iteretur Sacrilegus non est qui unicum baptismum non quod tuum est sed quod Christi iterare non audet Etenim Christi est unica in baptismate consecratio Tua est unici baptismatis iteratio Corrigo in te quod tuum est agnosco quod Christi est hoc enim justum est ut cum mala hominum reprobamus quaecunque in illis bona Dei reperimus approbamus Hoc inquam justum est ut etiam in sacrilego non violem quod verum invenio Sacramentum nec sic emendem Sacrilegum ut in eo perpetrem sacrilegium Nam sic sunt isti mali in baptismo bono quemadmodum sunt Iudaei mali in lege bona Itaque ut illi per ipsam legem judicabuntur quam malitia sua malā fecerunt Ita isti per ipsum baptismum judicabuntur quod bonum mali tenuerunt Ergo quemadmodum Iudaeus cū ad nos venerit ut Christianus fiat non in eo destruimus bona Dei sed mala ipsius Nam quod errat non credendo quod Christus jam venerit natusque passus sit resurrexerit hoc emendamus eaque infidelitate destituta fidem qua haec creduntur instruimus Item quod errant umbris veterum Sacramentorum inhaerendo dissuademus jamque venisse tempus quo haec auferenda atque mutanda Propheta praedixerunt demonstramus Quod verò unum Deum colendum credit qui fecit Caelum terram quod omnia Idola Sacrilegia Gentium detestatur quod futurum expectat judicium quod vitam sperat aeternam quod de carnis resurrectione non dubitat laudamus approbamus agnoscimus sicut credebat credenda sicut tenebat tenenda firmamus Ita etiam cum ad nos venerit Schismaticus vel haereticus ut Catholicus fiat schisma ejus haeresim dissuadendo destruendo rescindimus Sacramenta verò Christiana si eadē in illo invenimus quicquid aliud veri tenet absit ut violemus absit ut si simel danda norimus iteremus ne dum vitia humana curamus divina medicamenta damnemus aut quaerendo sanare vulneratum quod non est hominem saucium ubi sanus est vulneremus August Tom 7. l. de un baptis cont Petil. cap. 2. 3. Possunt esse populi boni ubi fuerint Episcopi mali sicut potuit esse populus malus ubi fuit Moses Princeps Rector bonus li. 2. c. E. Parmen c. 4. In bonis quibus talia displicent semper manet mansit manebit Ecclesia l. 3. Nihl aliud est consentire male facientibus nisi mala facta eorum approbare atque laudare l. 1. Nemo conjungitur cum infidelibus nisi qui facit peccatum Paganorum vel talia facientibus favet nec quisquam fit particeps iniquitatis nisi qui iniqua vel agit vel approbat l. 2. c. 17. Vbi Moses Aaron ibi murmuratores sacrilegi ubi Caiphas caeteri tales ibi Zacharias Simeon caeteri boni ubi Saul ibi David ubi Ieremias ubi Isaias ubi Daniel ubi Ezechiel ibi Sacerdotes mali populi mali cap. 7. Et sicut grana inter paleas non videntur ita pie viventes inter iniquorum turbas non facile apparent My Baptisme is such and so
those other things which we find in some singulars or particulars but not in other or at sometimes but not at other This is the rule of reason but you of Rome contrary to this course in framing your definitions have collected those things which are to be found in one particular Church viz. your owne and wherein you conceive other particular Churches to be defective things accidentall to the Church as without which the Christian Church hath beene and may be hereafter wheras all those things that belong to the definition of any thing must be essentiall universall inseparable and being taken alltogether must shew and explicate the whole nature of the thing and exclude all things else of a different nature or kind as for example Bellarmine after a long dispute concerning the definition of the Church rejecting all other concludeth thus Nostra autem sententia est Ecclesiam unam tantum esse non duas illam unam veram esse caetum hominum ejusdem Christianae fidei professione eorundem Sacramentorum communione colligatam sub regimine legitimorum Pastorum ac praecipuè unius Christi in terris Vicarij Romani pontificis Ex qua definitione facile colligi potest qui homines ad Ecclesiam pertineant Tres enim sunt partes hujus definitionis professio verae fidei Sacramentorum communio subjectio ad legitimum Pastorem Romanum Pontificem Ratione primae partis excluduntur omnes Infideles tam qui nunquam fuerunt in Ecclesia ut Iudaei Turcae Pagani quam qui fuerunt recesserunt ut Haeretici Apostatae Ratione secundae excluduntur Catechumeni excommunicati quoniam illi non sunt admissi ad Sacramentorum Communionem isti sunt admissi Ratione tertiae excluduntur Schismatici qui habent fidem Sacramenta sed non subduntur legitimo Pastori ideò foris profitentur fidem Sacramenta percipiunt Includuntur autem omnes alij etiamsi Reprobi Scelesti Impij sunt But this is our opinion that the Church is onely one not two and that one and true Church is an Assembly of men knit together in the profession of the same faith with Christ and Communion of the same Sacraments under the government of lawfull Pastors and especially under one Vicar of Christ on Earth the Bishop of Rome Out of which definition may easily bee collected who are of the Church and who are not for in this definition are three parts 1. profession of faith 2. communion of Sacraments 3. subjection to a lawfull Pastor the Bishop of Rome The 1. of these doth exclude all Infidells aswell Iewes Turkes and Heathens as Heretickes and Apostates which having beene of the Church departed from it The 2. part doth exclude those Catechumeni that are instructed in the principles of Christian Religion but are not yet baptized and those that are excommunicate for the first of these were never admitted to the Communion of the Sacraments these latter were admitted but are by excommunication excluded By the 3. part are excluded Schismatickes which have the faith and the Sacraments but are not subject unto the lawfull Pastor and therefore doe professe the faith and receive the Sacraments out of the Church All others are of the Church although they bee Reprobates wicked ungodly men Thus farre Bellarmine Valenza to the same effect writeth thus Vera Ecclesia non est alia Tom. 3. in Tho. pa. 144. nisi ea fidelium congregatio quae paret Romano Pontifici pro tempore existenti There is no true Church but that Congregation of faithfull people which is obedient to the Bishop of Rome for the time being Binnius the last and largest compiler of the Councells hath this Illam dicimus Ecclesiam quae decreta Sancti Consilij Tridentini universalis aecumenici tenet pariter honorat To. 2. pa. 721 notis in Corc Tolet. 3. We call that the Church which doth hold and honour the decrees of the Holy generall Councell of Trent Thus wee see that obedience to the Bishop of Rome is put by your late great Goliahs in the definition of the Church and by consequence it is of the essence and being of the Church so that no man can be saved by their Doctrine which is not obedient to the Bishop of Rome Nay the Christian Church cannot subsist without the Bishop of Rome and obedience unto him because nothing can subsist without his owne being If this be a true definition of the Christian Church then millions of Soules were damned when the Church of Rome was divided for many yeares and many descents for there could be but one true Pope at the same time some cleaving to one Pope some to the other this Schisme during seventy yeares The want of this obedience if their Doctrine be true hath excluded all the reformed Churches from hope of salvation which containe many millions of Christian Soules which receive and believe the Scriptures of old and new Testament as they were received in the first second third fourth Centurie of yeares which receive and professe the Apostles Creed are therein baptized and receive for Orthodox Doctrine the Decrees of the foure first Generall Councels and some of them receive six of the first Councels and yet must they be damned to the pit of hell because they will not be obedient to the Pope Histor Concil Trid. p. 450. The Queen of France somewhat above sixty yeares since wrote unto the Pope that there being none of the Reformed who deny the Articles of Faith nor the six Councels many thought it fit to receive them into Communion Let us passe from the Latin Church to the Greeke a Church larger in extent then the Latine Church This with all the number of Christian Soules therein contained for denying the Popes Supremacie are out of the Church have lost their hold of Christ have no interest in his sufferings although most of them suffer much for the profession of Christ under Turkes and Tartars Let us goe somewhat further and observe the miserable condition of the Churches of Africke which when they were at the best were three times as large as the Roman Church and yet though the Mahometans have much prevailed against them not inferior to the Latine Church all these are without hope of Heaven damned for ever to the pit of Hell if this definition be true Eusebius the compiler of the Ecclesiasticall History for the first three hundred and odd yeares assisted therein by Constantine the Great and esteemed by him worthy to be Bishop of all the world writeth Lib. 3. c. 14. that The Church was dispersed through the world by the Apostles Then speaking of the next Age viz. Anno 137. writeth Lib 4. c 6. c. 28. that The Churches did then shine like bright starres through the world and the faith in Jesus Christ did flourish in universo humano genere amongst all mankind As in Mesopotamia in France in Asia in Phrygia Lib. 6. c.
1. In India where Pantenus the Christian Phylosopher found Christians and the Gospel of Saint Matthew in Hebrew Lib. 5. c. 9. Anno 180. left unto them by Bartholomew who preached the Word in those parts Irenaeus the learned Bishop of Lions in France died about these times and had heard Polycarpus the Disciple of Saint Iohn as hee himselfe confesseth hee writeth thus The Church dispersed through the universall world into the ends of the earth received from the Apostles Lib. 1. c. 2. and their Disciples that Faith which is in one God the Father Almightie c. as hee there setteth it downe more at large cap. 3. hee saith This Faith the Church dispersed through the world doth constantly keepe as if they dwelt in one house as if they had but one soule one heart one mouth neither doe the Churches in Germany believe otherwise nor the Iberians nor the Celtes nor the Churches of Egypt nor those in the East nor those of Lybia nor those which are placed in the middle of the world Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria about the yeare 234 Euseb l. 7. c. 4. writing to Stephen Bishop of Rome saith Scias nunc frater c. Know now Brother that all the Easterne and those Churches which are more remote are at unitie Where he names the Bishops of Antioch Caesarea and Ierusalem of Tyre of Laodicea all Syria Arabia Mesopotamia Pontus Bythinia Euseb de vita Constantini l. 3. c. 7. The Ministers of God came together to the Councell of Nice out of Syria Cilicia Phaenicia Arabia Pabestina Egypt Thebais Africa Mesopotamia Persia Scythia Pontus Galatia Pamphilia Cappadocia Asia and Phrygia thither came the Thracians Macedonians Achaians Epirots and they whose dwellings were far more remote Much could I cite to the same purpose out of Socrates Theodoret Sozomen and other Ecclesiasticall Historians much out of the Fathers much out of the late Travellers but I will make choise of two or three which shew the multitude of Christians over the world It is too true that about seven hundred yeares after the comming of our Saviour in the flesh Mahomet gained much from the Christians the Turkes more about foure hundred yeares after that and the Tartars I may say almost as much as both the last of these about foure hundred yeares past Saving one mentioned by Mathew Paris subduing the mighty Christian King of Teuduc became Mahometans and their Successors ever since yet so as Christians are found in all their dominions to this day yea and within these foure hundred yeares and lesse Burchardus hath recorded that in the hither halfe of Asia from Tanais Westward to Imaus Eastward and from thence to the South of Asia there were thirty Christians for one Mahometan I will end this with an Historian and Traveller of your owne Andrew Thevet Cosmographer to the French King in his Cosmographie I assure you saith he that I found at Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke more then foure thousand Christians of severall remote Nations my selfe being sole with an Almaine of the Roman Church And anon after hee saith All those Nations doe acknowledge neither Pope nor Cardinall King nor Emperour of ours And againe None can shew that the Abyssines Armenians Maronits Georgians of Persia Nestorians Iacobites Syrians Iavans which be of the Ilands next the Orientall India Burians Darians Cephalians the men of Quinsay most remote of all the Orientall India of all which Nations I saw in Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke ever learned from us of the Latine Church their Sacred Mysteries or Liturgie which they affirme themselves to have received from the Apostles Thus far Thevet Yet by your definition all these so many Christians of severall remote nations are damned to Hell for they do not acknowledge the Pope nor did for one thousand five hundred yeares And must all the Christians for one thousand five hundred yeares of so many severall Nations be damned for not acknowledging the Pope The devils in Hell would triumph if this were true The ten persecutions in the Primitive Church and the great inundation of Mahometisme lenarged far and wide by the conquest of Sarazens Turkes and Tartars did never cut so many soules from Christ drive so many out of the Christian Church and consequently damne them to Hell as this definition hath done if it were true I have read in one of your owne Writers Matthew Paris That a Priest deceased Anno 1072. about thirty dayes after appearing to another Priest his former acquaintance bade him give over his function and repent if he would be saved and opening his hand shewed him a writing wherein the Devill and all the societie of Hell did give thankes to the whole Order of the Clergie because that giving themselves wholly to pleasure and neglecting to preach they suffered more soules to come to Hell then had beene seene in any Age before All the service that the Romish Clergie of those times did doe to the Devill in bringing infinite numbers of soules to Hell was nothing to what this Iesuiticall definition and Doctrine doth doe If this definition be true the judiciall proceeding in the later day must be not as our Saviour hath laid downe in the 25. of Saint Matthew Come yee blessed of my Father Ver. 34 35 36. inherit the Kingdome prepared for you from the foundation of the world For I was an hungred and yee gave mee meat I was thirsty and ye gave mee drinke I was a stranger and yee tooke mee in naked and yee clothed mee I was sicke and yee visited mee I was in prison and ye came unto mee But thus it must be if this definition be true Come yee blessed who have submitted your selves unto my Vicar generall who have been obedient unto my Bishop of Rome acknowledging him to have authoritie over all Bishops that hee is above Councels above Kings Valenza Tom. 3.1 qu. §. 6. Bellarm. l. 4 de Pont. Rom. c. 4 5. above Emperours Lord of all the world that in him is invested all the authoritie of the universall Church that all the Church without him may erre that he doing the office of a Pastor or intending to teach the Church cannot erre Our Saviour said Not every one that saith unto mee Lord Lord shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven but hee that doth the will of my Father but now the case is altered Every one that saith Lord Lord to the Bishop of Rome and none but hee alone is in the Church out of which there is no salvation Our Saviour said Hee that doth the will of my Father but these say Hee that doth the will of God and the Church shall be saved and by the Church they understand the Pope Must all those remote Nations amongst whom many millions never heard of the Bishop of Rome and those who are oppressed under the Moores Turkes and Tartars for the Faith of Christ must they I say be examined in the last day in
that great Iudgement whether they did obey the Bishop of Rome or no and condemned for not obeying him If they answer Wee acknowledged our sinnes and repented of them wee believed in thy name Iesu wee were baptized in that Faith wee received thy body and blood wee endured many indignities reproaches impositions nay our children are taken from us if there be any more hopefull then other and all because wee are Christians Will Christ answer them Away from mee for you did not acknowledge my Vicar generall my Bishop of Rome to have authoritie over all Churches over all Patriarches yea Kings and Emperors in ordine ad Spiritualia I know you not you are not of the Church Irenaeus l. 3. c. 12. May not the Aethiopians reply Wee have received the Faith first by the relation of our a Act. 8.27 owne Countreymen who were baptized by Phillip afterward by the Evangelist b Socrat. hist l. 1. c. 15. Saint Matthew Wee received it by the preaching of Bartholemew say the c Chrysost Hom. 22. de Apostolis Armenians Wee have received it by the preaching of Andrew say the d Orig. l. 3. in Genesin Scythians We from thy beloved Disciple e Euseb hist l. 3. c. 1. Saint Iohn say the Churches of the lesser f Euseb hist l. 3. c. 1. Asia with us he lived with us he died to us he vouchsafed to speake in his Revelations we received it also from thy Apostle g Paul epist ad Ephes ad Galat. Paul who preached amongst us and wrote divers Epistles unto us From him wee received thy Faith say the Graecians Macedonians h Paul ep ad Roman cap. 15 v. 19 26. Illyrians To us hee hath vouchsafed to write say the Thessalonians Corinthians Philippians i Pet. 1. ep cap. 1. v. 1. Peter preached in our Countries and in our neighbour Countries of Anatolia as in k Euseb hist l. 3. c. c. 1. Pontus Galatia Bythinia Cappadocia Asia it was to strangers scattered amongst us of his owne Nation to the l Chrys Hom. de duodecem Apostolis The Church of Ephesus instructed by Paul and afterwards continued by S. Iohn Iren. lib 3. c. 3. The Gospel of the uncircumcissiō was committed unto me as the Gospel of Circumcission was unto Peter Gal. 2.7 dispersed Iewes and not to us of the Gentiles Wee of the higher a Theodor. de veri Evang. c. 9. Osorius de rebus Emanuelis Socrat. l. 1. c. 15. Asia received it from Phillip wee from Simon Zelotes say the inhabitants of Mesopotamia wee of Parthia Persia Media Brachmania India and other neighbour Nations from Thomas We Indians also received it from Bartholomew who left with us the Gospel of thy blessed Apostle and Evangelist Saint Matthew wee saw not Peter wee heard not of the b I assure you that I found at Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke more then 4000 Christians of severall remote nations hereafter mentioned my selfe being sole amongst them with an Almaine of the Roman Church they doe acknowledge neither Pope nor Cardinall King or Emperor of ours See more p. 42. The Christians of Iava Taprobane Caephala Quinsay and other remote Countries in the Orientall India divers of which as the Aethiopians Indians Armenians Graecians c. were converted in the Apostles times and are from these parts so far distant as that the Latine Church was for many precedent Ages unknowne to sundry of them till the later times Brearley Tract 3. §. 2. Sub. 1. in his booke of the Masse pag. 288. Pope we knew not Rome neither for ought wee know were wee knowne unto thy Latine Church and if it be necessary for all men that will be saved to know and acknowledge the Pope of Rome our Teachers have deceived us the Gospel which wee have received is unperfect the Scriptures are defective which make no mention of the Bishop of Rome nay thy Word hath misled us saying There is no other name under heaven given to men in whom and through whom they attaine health and salvation save only in thy name O Christ Iesu We received not our Religion from Rome wee were not converted by any sent from the Latin Church We received it from thy Apostles say the c Theodor. de curat Grae ca. affect l 9. Tyberines Hyrcanians Caspinians Scythians Massagets Sarmatians the Serae Cimicrians Germans Britaines the Lagi Samni Anasgi utque semel dicatur omne hominum genus all mankind may say we received thy Faith from the Apostles sundry of which were unknowne to the Latine Church Yet my d In the Reply to Doctor White and Doctor Fratley the Author in the second Chapter saith That out of the Roman Church no salvation this is the Title and drift of divers leaves together Adversary here if he sate in the judgement seat would doe as Bellarmine Valenza Binnius and others have done condemne them all to Hell with an Away with you I know you not if you know not the Roman Church if you live not in unitie with that And no marvell he is so peremptory seeing Pope Boniface hath decreed it thus Declaramus dicimus definimus pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis omni humanae creaturae subesse Romano Pontifici De Major Wee declare say determine pronounce that it is altogether necessary to salvation that every man that will be saved bee obedient to the Bishop of Rome These are the Lawes of Rome this the doctrine of your Schooles this the charitie of your Religion to condemne ten times as many Christians to hell as ever were of your Church for not being obedient to him they never knew they never heard of Arist. Tep l. 6. c. 1. n. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And because we are speaking of Definitions let me request you to remember the lawes of a Definition as first that it must contain all that is defined it must belong to every thing which is comprized under that which is defined 2. It must belong to nothing else but that which is truly and properly stiled by the name of that which is defined as the definition of man must belong to all men to nothing else but man as every man is Animal rationale and nothing but man the reason thereof is this that a definition must shew and expresse distinctly the proper essence of that which is defined 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Artic 2. Poster cap. 3. If proper then it can belong to nothing else if essence it must belong to all for nothing can be without his owne being and essence And for the same reason it is inseparable immutable and must perpetually be verified of that to which it once doth belong as a true definition which sheweth the essence or being of a thing A definition doth make us to know what each thing it because nothing can bee separated from his owne being unlesse it cease to bee at all If then Bellarmines definition
your tenet That there is no salvation out of the Roman Church which is the fame in effect with the doctrine of Bellarmine Valenza and Binnius bee true it must include all Christian Churches and it must agree to all the Christian Churches at all times but this definition did not agree to all Christian Churches as I have shewed by the testimony of your owne writers and Travellers for many thousands of Christian Nations in the world did not acknowledge your Pope and many never heard of your Latine Church neither did the Latine Church know them That it did not perpetually belong to the Church will appeare in that I thinke my adversary is not able to produce any in 1150. yeeres after Christs comming in the flesh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem Metaph 2. c. 3. that framed such a definition of the Catholick Church so that the learned must either be ignorant of the true definition or this must not be it Is it likely that all the learned Fathers who wrote upon this subject disputed upon this point Licet definitio definitum re idē sint tamen propositio in qua definitio de definito praedicatur non est identica sed doctrinalis quia in ea conceptus distinctus de confuso praedicatur Zuarez were ignorant what the Church of Christ was which is distinctly knowne onely by d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arti. 2. Post c. 2. a definition If this definition or your tenents were true all those Christians who dyed for Christ till Peter came to Rome were out of the Church were damned Stephen the first Martyr who dyed for Christ the same yeere that Christ dyed for him and all the world was out of the Church was damned lost his life in vaine shed his bloud to no purpose If it were so necessary that there must be a Bishop of Rome to whom all Christians must submit why did not the Primitive Christians entreate Peter to goe to Rome that they might have a Church The beleeving Iewes should have come to Peter and said if we die before there be a Bishop of Rome we dye out of the Church we are damned Definitio est principium finis logieae Zabarella therefore good Peter to Rome with all speed They of Antioch should have done the like and said to Peter sweet Simon what dost thou here to Rome that we may have a Church So should they of Alexandria have told him to Rome Peter what dost thou heere Sedit Antiochiae annis 7. Baron an 39.25 annis ut Euseb in Chro. why wilt thou so long delay the laying of that corner stone in Rome whereon all must be built wherein all must be saved why wilt thou hazard the salvation of so many soules as may die before thou hast settled a Church at Rome which must be the Mother of all Churches Pius 4. his Creed art 11. wilt thou make thy selfe guilty of the blood of so many beleevers as may dye whilst thou doest linger and loyter heere The Churches of Iudaea Galile and Samaria were excluded by your definitions Acts 9.10 11 12. and tenents for Peter had not as yet beene out of those coasts nay if this definition were true they were no Churches but the Scripture saith they were Churches ergo this is a false tenet a false definition The Christians of Ioppa were to blame to send for him Acts 9. to hinder him from a more necessary journey to Rome and Peter himselfe much to blame to tarry there many dayes Cornelius the devout Centurion if he had heard Acts 10. and believed your tenents and definitions might have stumbled at what the Angell commanded him doe and he might have said with himselfe if there be no salvation out of the Roman Church what good can Peter doe me before there be a Church there If none can be saved but who are in subjection to the Bishop of Rome what good can Peter doe me there being as yet no Bishop of Rome Then when Peter came unto him and preached Christ Iesus and remission of sinnes in his name if these men had beene there they would have said Peter you have forgot one principall Article of the faith that which is essentiall to the Church the being entity the definition of it That he must be obedient to the Bishop of Rome this might more neerely concerne him being Captaine of the Italian Band. But the Scripture saith that Peter did tell him that whereby he and all his house should be saved and yet no word of Rome or Roman Bishop The Christians of Antioch by this definition and tenet were no Church though the Scripture say they were Iames the brother of Iohn which was kild by Herod was of no Church by this definition and tenet and therefore was damned We desire not to be of any other Church then Augustine Ambrose Ierome the Councell of Africk the Councell of Nice the Church of Ioppa Caesarea Ierusalem Antioch were of We like no such definitions as exclude the Fathers Councells the Apostle Saint Iames the Martyr Saint Stephen and damnes them to Hell O let me live the life of these dye the death of these and rest in peace with these Thus much in justifying my definition and against your tenet and Iesuiticall definition of Bellarmine which I briefly urge thus That definition which belongeth to all Christian Churches and to none else is a good definition But such is mine Ergo It is a good definition That definition and tenet which excludeth and condemneth all the Churches of Africk Asia and a great part of Europe yea Stephen the first Martyr and Iames the brother of Iohn together with divers Councells and fathers is false and uncharitable But such is your definition such your tenet Ergo Your tenet and definition are both false and uncharitable CHAP. XI A true Copy of Mr. Fishers five Propositions IT is certaine there is one and but one true infallible faith without which none can please God 2. This one infallible faith cannot be had according to the ordinary course of Gods providence but by hearing Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church who onely are lawfully sent and authorized to teach the true word of God 3. As therefore this one infallible faith hath beene and must be in all ages so there must needs be in all ages Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church of whom all sorts of people have in times past as appeareth by Histories learned and must learne in all future times the said infallible faith 4. Hence it followeth that if Protestants bee the true visible Church of Christ all sorts of men who in every age have had the aforesaid infallible faith have learned it by Protestant Preachers whose names may be found in Histories as the names of those are found who in severall ages did teach and convert people of severall Nations under the faith of Christ 5. Hence further followeth that
Registerie Thus much concerning your Index Expurgatorius blotting out of Authors that which maketh against you Now followeth the third exception against your authorities your forging of Authors and Councells As Abdias Stories of the Apostles urged by Harding and others censured by your owne Sixtus Senensis for fained and utterly rejected by Cardinall Baronius Linus Bishop of Rome of the passion of the B Apostles Peter and Paul urged by Coccius yet acknowledged by Bellarmine Baronius and Possevine to be fained fabulous erronius Clemens his Apostolicall Constitutions and his Recognitions are urged many times by Coccius Harding and others the first of these by Baronius and Possevine the second by Bellarmine Baronius and Sixtus Senensis are rejected with many more Besides the Fathering of divers Treatises upon St. Cyprian upon St. Origen upon Saint Athanasius Saint Ambrose Saint Augustine and others of which I will not speake but referre the Reader to your owne greatest Writers Bellarmine Baronius Sixtus Senensis Possevine who in divers places do naile these Authors to the pillarie as false fained Witnesses and palpable forgerers wishing the learned Reader to have recourse unto these when hee readeth any ancient authoritie cited and alleaged by the Romanists and hee shall find it usuall amongst men of your side to quote cite and triumph in such forgeries as if they were true and undoubted testimonies as one of your side M. Fisher did alleage 27 Fathers for Invocation of Saints to which I having made an answer within the compasse of two daies for longer time hee would not grant me pretending that hee must be gone out of the Countrey I discovered so many forgeries and impertinencies as that in his next Reply hee fell off from 27 to 16 and of those 16 some also forged and very few or none at all to his purpose Amongst others hee doth triumph in a Quotation out of Athanasius in his Sermon de Sancta Deipera the words in that Sermon as hee cited them besides others are these O Mistresse Lady Queene and Mother of God make intercession for us then thus hee trumphs How now Master Rogers are you not yet contented to pray to Saints De Scriptor Ecclesiasticis 8. an 48. Platina Cusanus Marsil Pata Lauren. Val. Ant. Floren. Otho Fri. Hiron P. Cate. Volateranus Nauclerus Capnian Mullineus Aeneas Syl. Shall Saint Athanasius teach you your Ave Maria whereas this was but a forgerie for Bellarmine and Baronius doe hold it not to be written by Saint Athanasius and doe bring many reasons to prove the same and Bellarmine saith That it was not a worke of that Age but written after the sixth Councell which was above 300 yeares after Athanasius And to insist no further upon the forging of particular private men the most notorious injurious incroaching impudent forgerie was that of Constantines donation urged as true and undoubted by Harding and the forging of the Councell of Nice by Pope Sozimus the first of these two the donation of Constantine whereby he doth give and grant unto the Bishop of Rome all Italy France Denmark Sweden Britaine c. with authoritie and power over all the world more then that of the Empire is and that hee be honoured and worshipped more then the Emperour This is adjudged a forgerie by more then a Jurie of Roman Writers The other forgerie was discovered by a Councell of Africke consisting of 217 Bishops whereof Saint Augustine was one who wrote to the Pope thus Touching that you wrote unto us concerning the Nicene Councell in the very true Councell of Nice which wee have received from the happy Bishop of Alexandria and the Bishop of Constantinople wee find no such matter Boniface the second was so much moved hereat above an hundred yeares after as to say Ep. ad Eulalium That all these Bishops whereof Saint Augustine was one were all inflamed and led by the Devill Thus much concerning your forging Authorities But say that wee produce some Histories or Fathers which have not come under your Index Expurgatorius nor beene refined in your forge how will you slight scorne abase deride slander and revile them I know not whom of the Ecclesiasticall Historians nor whom of the Fathers you will admit for a Witnesse without exception For what Authors what Records shall serve against them who with a bold impudencie will deny those Historians who lived in the fittest time to write of those things which they have committed to memorie viz. in the Ages next following when they neither feare to offend the present nor with too much distance cannot discerne what is more remote Such as were the Histories of Eusebius Artic. Historiae non minus vetustate quam novitatae fabulosae injucundae sunt Bellarm. de Cler. l. 1. cap. 20. Baron Ann. 324. n. 19. especially of Socrates Sozomen Theodoret yet all these shall be rejected if they speake any thing that may disadvantage the Papacie as Socrates and Sozomen for relating the Storie of Paphnutius speaking for the married Clergie in the Councell of Nice are thus handled by Bellarmine Multa mentitur Sozomenus Socrates tria mendacia dicit Socrates Sezomenus haeretici Sozomen tels many lies Socrates tels three manifest lies Sozomen and Socrates were Haereticks Neither doth Baronius handle them any thing more respectively saying Sozomen was not advised behold into what errors ignorance hath cast him n. 22. it doth plainly appeare how far hee was deceived hee did erre concerning the Nicene Councell an 325. n. 10. Anno 169. concerning Paphnutius concerning Arrius an 327. n. 7. hee was deceived concerning the Councell of Ariminum and other things an 355. n. 27. hee doth often relate untruly concerning Athanasius an 335. n. 6. an 354. n. 21. an 356. n. 85. These were the things of greatest moment in that Age the Councell of Nice the most famous that ever was in the world The Haeresie of Arrius the greatest that ever was in the Church the labours troubles and constancie of Athanasius against this Haeresie of greatest note and most glorious of any Confessor that ever the Christian Church had before or since Sozomen lived in the fittest Age to be informed of these things in the fittest Church namely in the Greeke Church where these things were done and yet is he so full of errors in matters of greatest moment on which the eyes of all the Christians in the world stood at a gaze Is hee so full of errours in these things which were so cleare as the Sun in the firmament so many Records being preserved of those passages so many Letters passing from one Bishop to another must wee thinke that Baronius who lived 1200 yeares after and no member no Inhabitant of the Greeke Church knew these things better then Sozomen did and kicke him off with saying Hee was an impudent fellow an 324. n. 19. That hee was a Novatian Haereticke n. 63. But you would thinke that Baronius should not thus reject debase disgrace Sozomen unlesse
hee had some other grave Historian of those times to crosse and contradict Sozomen No such matter the other famous Historians of that Age were Eusebius and Socrates though Eusebius somewhat more ancient beginning his Historie of the Church from Christ and continuing it untill the death of Constantine Socrates and Sozomen to whom wee may adde Theodoret all three began their Historie where Eusebius ended continuing the same unto the raigne of Theodosius junior which was about the yeare 400. All these were Greeke Writers and of the Greeke Church to whom if wee adde the short Historie of Ruffinus who was a Presbyter of the Latine Church wee have all the professed Historians of note that I have seene and read for those times so that if the authoritie of these men be slighted and excepted against as erroneous false impudent lying Haereticks I know not what Histories Master Fisher will produce for the chiefest time of the Primitive Church the first 400 yeares Of Sozomen I have already spoken the next shall be Eusebius who was of that repute in the Age wherein he lived and the next succeeding Age that the other Historians Ruffinus Socrates and Sozomen doe begin their Histories where hee left onely speaking something more fully concerning Arrius and the Councell of Nice Sozomen stiling him a man most expert in holy and humane learning This man besides his Historie wrote a Chronologie which Baronius truly stileth a Ground-work Baron an 325. n. 213. n. 215. and foundation whereon the whole fabricke and frame of Historie must relie yet herein hee is so erroneous as that Baronius must correct him What so erronious in the foundation the whole building must fall then Thus Diodorus Siculus of whom Iustine Martyr the Christian Phylosopher writeth saying Diodorus Siculus whom you account the most famous Historian so divided his Historie as to terme his Relations before the Trojan wars The Narration of Res fabulas matters mixed with fables because hee had no certaine ground how to describe the times Varro a man admired for learning dividing time into three portions the first before the Flood which he calleth Obscure the second from the Flood unto the first Olympiad which hee termeth Fabulous the third after the Olympiads because of a computation of time hee calleth Historicum So great a matter in Historie is Chronologie and yet herein Eusebius Socrates Sozomen Ruffinus are charged to be erroneous very often by Baronius and besides this hee layeth other imputations upon them Eusebius was an advancer of the Arrian Heresie a cunning Juggler in his Historie he doth favour the Arrians he doth omit many things Anno 318. n 79 80. an 324. n. 154. n. 45. n. 144. an 340. n. 40. n. 38. hee doth deale deceitfully hee doth falsly relate the time and place of Constantines baptisme hee is false in the storie of Estathius like a Stage-player being an Hereticke hee acted the part of a Catholick he was called the Ensigne-bearer of the Arrians Socrates dealbat Aethiopem doth but wash a Blackamoore in seeking to cleare him from the Arrian Heresie though hee subscribed to the Nicene Councell yet hee afterwards returned like the Sow to wallow againe in the mire and like the Dogge unto his vomit Hee and Eusebius of Nicomedia like two Coach-horses drawing the chariot of Impietie did run headlong with equall pace and violence to their owne destruction and the destruction of others being driven by a wicked Spirit Thus far Baronius saying moreover That Sixtus Senensis a learned Writer of his owne side may be ashamed that hee reputed him a Catholick Writer Doth not Baronius rave like Hercules furens upon the Stage to deprave a learned painfull Bishop a great Writer and the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Historian of the Primitive Church who is his chiefest Author for those times cited by him in his three first Tomes 700 times at least so well reputed that Ruffinus translated his Historie into Latine Sozomen stileth him A man full of Learning both divine and humane to whom these two together with Socrates and Theoderet did succeed in compiling the Ecclesiasticall storie The last of these Theodoret alleaging a large Epistle of his in defence of the Nicene Creed against Arrius All these and besides them Acasius who succeeded him in his Bishoprick of Caesarea doe cleare him from such imputations and did reverently esteeme of him and shall we thinke that these men who lived in the same Age and within few yeares after Eusebius did not know Eusebius better then Baronius who lived twelve hundred yeares after his time and more then 1200 miles from the place where hee was Bishop where hee lived and died and where those occurrences of the Councell of Nice of Arrius of Athanasius were better knowne then in Rome a Church more remote and of another language then that wherein that Councell was celebrated and those Fathers did write I may not insist much upon the other Ecclesiasticall Writers before named but they are all reputed ignorant false erroneous by Baronius Theodoret Socrates Sozomen Baron an 34. n. 29. and they which followed them erred in the time and fell into other lyes Socrates is accused of him for falshood neere twentie times and most of them in those matters which were of greatest note and wherein hee and Sozomen doe agree concerning the Councell of Nice Athanasius Paphnutius Eusebius and Arrius the Heretick Ruffinus is accused of him for the like falshood in the same matters concerning Arrius Athanasius An. 338. n. 2. as also concerning Saint Hilarie Gregorie Nazianzen and Basil He saith That Ruffinus was an inverter of times that hee was unlearned that hee did mis-interpret the sixth Canon of the Councell of Nice I will adde one example more The renowned Athanasius saith That hee wrote his Creed in his banishment No saith Baronius Non exul sed reus tunc Romae fuit An. 34. n. 13. He was not then in his banishment but called to answer before the Bishop of Rome as his Judge What authoritie what reason doth Baronius produce none at all And you must believe Baronius a Sycophant of the Roman Church before Athanasius that most glorious Confessor Shall wee thinke that hee would lie who was in trouble 40 yeares for the truth or doth Baronius 1200 yeares after without any Author to leade him know better what Athanasius did then Athanasius himselfe I should be thought very impudent if I should say That being here in England I did see of my selfe and know what Baronius did in his studie in Rome better then himselfe There are not more miles betweene England and Rome then are yeares from Athanasius his time to Baronius Linceus the Son of Amphiaraus Valerius Maximus that could see through the walls and that other Sicilian Linceus who could number the ships comming out of the Haven at Carthage himselfe being at Litybed in Sicilie 130 miles off could not see so well as those men Honorius primus the
Ferrara made by Marcus Bishop of Ephesus Sess 5. in a grave and learned speech recorded by your owne Surius in the fourth Tome of Councels imprinted at Colonia Agrippina Anno 1567. Definitiones Decreta aliarum omnium Synodorum recitanda nobis videntur ut haec nostra Synodus non solum ab illis non discrepare verumetiam ipsas in omnibus imitari velle videatur quoniam nos firmiter credimus majores nostros nil prorsus silentio praeterjiffe quod ad nostrum fidei Symbolum spectet Marcus Ephesinus in Generali 8. Synodo Sess 3. apud Surium Tom. 3. Pag. 375. Porro autem quoniam de Divinis primi ac alterius Concilii dogmatibus nil aliud reperitur nisi duae tantem fidei nostrae expositiones hoc est duo Symbola quae tamen pro uno a caeteris Conciliis suscepta fuerant idcirco à recitandis tertii Concilii gestis auspicandum nobis censemus vobis probare promittimus Christianorum omnium unam esse Catholicam fidem ad quam accessionem aliquem fieri aut quicquam ab ea non liceat auferri In primis ergo Nicenum Symbolum à trecentis decem octo Patribus Niceae celebratum recitetur Legatur etiam ejusdem Concilii definitio ut idem Nicenum Symbolum immutabile ac immobile permaneret neminique fas esset aliam fidem proferre Sess 5. Quartum Concilium viz. Ephesinum definit atque determinat ut aliam fidem conscribere aut componere aut sentire aut docere liceat nemini Concilium 5. viz. Constantinopol idem definit qui aliud Symbolum docuissent anathemati subjiciunt Sic etiam 6. Concilium seu Trullanum priora Concilia dictum Symbolum amplectitur obsignat Sic etiam 7. ac ultimum generale Concilium Hactenus Marcus Ephes ibidem Ab anno 800. ad 900. 1. Theodotus Melissenus 2. Iohannes Sixtus 3. Photius All these three were Patriarchs of Constantinople as is acknowledged by Baronius an 835. n. 25. All zealous adversaries to your worshipping of Images for which Baronius there calleth the first Haereticum Iconoclastam an haereticall Image-breaker The second Haeresis promulgatorem acerrimum The third namely Photius held a Councell at Constantinople planè numerosum admodum Concilium it was a very full Councell in so much as Michael the Emperour gloried that it equalled the number of the Fathers of the great Nicen Councell teste Baron an 861. n. 1. This was accounted a Generall Councell by Photius and by Theodorus Balsamon Comenting upon it Sic ait Baron ibid. n. eodem In this Councell was condemned the worshipping of Images Ab anno 900. ad 1000. Nilus Calaber Habuit hoc saeculo Graeca Ecclesia duos doctrina sanctitate illustres Nilum Calabrum Niconem Lacedemon Baron an 900. n. 8. Nico. Lacedemon Hic non à Graecis solum sed etiam à Latinis inter Sanctos est relatus Baron an 961. Ab anno 1000. ad 1100. Simeon Armenus Vir Sanctus verae fidei Professor Baro. an 1016. n. 7. 8. Theophilactus Episcopus Bulgarorum He in his writings imitateth Saint Chrysostome but he is a Schismaticke saith Bellar. de scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis Ab anno 1100. ad an 1200. Euthimius Zigabenus who wrote against all Haeresies and upon the 4. Evangel Bellarm. de Scriptoribus Ecclesiae Theodorus Balsamon Who commented upon Photius his Nicene Canon and divers Councels He was an enemie to the Church of Rome saith Bellarm. Ab Anno 1200. ad 1300. Arsenius Patriarcha Constantin A man for vertue and the service of God not farre short of the highest perfection ut Nicephorus Gregor lib. 3. p. 31. edit Basiliensis an 1562. cum Caesarea Majest privilegiis Gregorius Patriarcha Idem Gregor l. 6 pag. 80. Ioannes Glices Patriarch also of Constantin a most learned grave wise man above all men Nicephorus Gregoras lib. 8. pag. 123. 132. Ab Anno 1300. ad 1400. Catechuzenus Pachimaerus Nicephorus Gregoras These three were Fathers of the 14 age saith Bzonius in the end of that age Tom. 13. in his Supplement of Baron his Ecclesiasticall History an 1299. They did teach contrary to the doctrine of the Haereticks so Baronius calleth us but I may truly say that the first and last of the three teach contrary to their faith and so the other professed or he could not be of the Greeke Church who deny the Popes primacie of power deny Purgatory Communicate in both kinds For Catechuzenus in the election of Iohn Bishop of Constantinople doth say that all Bishops of greater or lesser Cities receive equall grace Baronius addeth his owne Glosse saying True equall grace of Order not of Iurisdiction Nicephorus in his 10 booke disputeth at large against the Latine Church à pag. 230 ad finem ejusdem libri To. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 99. Ep. ad lect To these I may adde Cabasilas whom together with Balsamon Genebrard calleth two famous Greeke Fathers for which words he is blamed by M. De la Bigne who calleth the same men Schismaticks and enemies to the Church of Rome Tom. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 101. 102. Gentianus Hervetus another of your side doth write in defence of Cabasilas in his Preface to the Reader before Cabasilas his booke intituled A Compendious Interpretation upon the Divine Sacrifice extant dicto 6 Tom. Bibl. Sanctae pag. 159. But he is thus blamed by your De la Bigne Dealbat Aethiopem Gentianus labouring to excuse Cabasilas doth but wash a Blackamoore for it is manifest he was a Schismaticke that he burned with hatred against the Church of Rome and wrote an Haereticall Booke against Tho. Aquinas Yet he is placed by Bellarmine amongst his Ecclesiasticall Writers in a distinct Columne also of his Chronologie from Haereticks Ab Anno 1400 ad 1500. Marcus Ephesinus Insignis Theologus as hee is stiled in the Acts of the Councell of Florence Sessione 2. apud Surium Tom. 4. Laonicus Chalcondilas who being of the Greeke Church testifieth that the agreement made at Florence was not received in Greece lib. 1. de rebus Turcicis non longè à principio Thus have I finished my Catalogue of Greeke Writers having many more to insert if any just exception can be given against these I will conclude concerning them with these two Arguments the one to prove that they were of our Faith and Church the other to prove that they were not of the Roman Faith or Church thus All they that doe professe the Apostles Creed as it was explicated in the Nicene Councell that receive the Scriptures received by the Protestants that receive the foure first Generall Councels and the two Sacraments of Baptisme and the Eucharist under lawfull Pastors are of the Protestants Faith and Church But those Authors as all others of the Greeke Church did professe and receive the said Creed Scriptures Councels and Sacraments under lawfull Pastors Ergo They are of the Protestants Faith and Church The Proposition is A definitione ad
so saith Ruffinus who lived about the yeare 400. This assembly is recorded by Baronius in the yeare 44. n. 7. which was before the two later Councels mentioned the one Acts 15 and the other Acts 21. I thinke Master Fisher will not denie but these Councels professed the Apostles Creed From the yeare 100 to 200. Seculum 2. The 2 Age. Anno 190. Wherein were Presidents 1. A Councell in Palestina Theophilus Bishop of Caesarea and Narcissus Bishop of Ierusalem Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 21. 2. A Councell in Rome Under Victor Euseb lib. 5. cap. 11. Anno 198. saith Baronius Wherein was President 3. A Councell of the Bishops of Pontus 4. A Councell in Gaul Palma Euseb lib. 5. cap. 21. Anno 198. Baronius Wherein was President St Irenaeus whose learned Booke against Haereticks is extant Euseb lib. 5. cap. 21. Wherein Polycrates was President who dissented from the other Councels in the day of celebrating Easter 5. A Councell in the lesser Asia and of Fasting and were therefore excommunicated by Victor Bishop of Rome But this pleased not all the Bishops who were of this opinion who did advise him to relish those things which might further peace unitie and love with his neighbours especially the forenamed Saint Irenaeus who wrote unto him to this effect telling him that all these Easterne Churches dissenting concerning Fasting yet did agree in one Faith Euseb lib. 5. cap. 23. From the yeare 200 to the yeare 300. The third Age. Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 26 27. Anno 265. 1. 2. Concilium Antiochenum against Paulus Samosatenus who taught that Christ was an ordinary man as we are At which Councell were present great lights of the Church Firmilianus Bishop of Caesarea in Cappad Theo Bishop of Caesarea in Palestina the Bishop of Hierusalem c. Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 28. anno 270. or 272. ut Baronio placet in which great Synod of very many Bishops 2. 3. Concilium Antiochenum the said Paulus Samosatenus was condemned and excommunicated saith Eusebius 1 Concilium Africanum Under Saint Cyprian an 258. inquit Baronius n. 6. against the restoring of Martialis and Basilides after their fall to Gentilisme returning againe to Christianitie and desiring to be restored to their severall Sees of Leon Asturia in Spaine See S. Cyprian Ep. 68. Ep. 70. 72. And concerning rebaptizing of those that had sacrificed to Idols saith Balsamon in his Preface before this Councell Which in persecution denied Christ saith Nicephorus An. 258. n. 31 32 33. lib. 6. cap. 2. But therein hee lies extremely saith Baronius for hee would only baptize those who were formerly baptized by Haereticks an 258. n. 18. but herein they used such Christian modesty as that they did not herein prescribe Lawes to others concerning this not to be de Fide a matter of Faith for which they that did doe otherwise should be termed Haereticks Thus far and much more Baronius And Saint Ierome against the Luciferians to the same purpose speaking of Saint Cyprian Let them know that hee did not publish this with any Anathema against those who did not follow him for hee held communion with them who did gainsay his opinion The fourth Age. From the yeare 300 to the yeare 400. Concilium Ancyranum About the yeare 308 saith Caranza or 314 saith Baronius This was a Provinciall Councell but confirmed by the sixth Generall Councell saith Balsamon and Caranza at which were present many Fathers who did good service in the Councell of Nice saith Baron ibid. 1. Vniversale Concil Concilium Nicenum This was the first and most famous Generall Councell after the Apostles time celebrated in the yeare 325 or 326 called by that famous Emperor Constantine the Great Baron Caranza Surius Bellarm. Binius These professed the Apostles Creed 2. Vniversale Conc. Constantinop 1. This was the second Generall Councell called about the yeare 381. as Baronius 383 as others this did confirme the Nicene Faith and a little in exposition enlarge it to that which wee commonly call the Nicene Creed one word only excepted Surius Tom. 1. Balsamon Caranza From the yeare 400. to the yeare 500. The fift Age. This was the third Generall Councell about the yeare 430. 3. Vnivers Concil Consil Ephesinum 4. Vnivers Concil Chalcedon saith Onuphrius 431. saith Baronius n. 41. 434 sait Bellarmine Surius Tom. 1. Balsamon This was the fourth Generall Councell about the yeere 451. saith Baronius and Onuphrius 454. saith Bellarm. See Isidore fol. 83. Balsamon Binius Surius Carthaginense for it hath the former Title in Surius Concil Africanum 2. Vel Carthag Tom. 1. and the latter in Balsamon in whom it is the second though Baronius make it the fifth Councell of Carthage ann 419. n. 59. All these three Councells did approve the precedent Generall Councells as appeareth by the Acts of the Councells in Isidore Balsamon Surius and others And in this of Africke were forbidden Appeales to Rome though the Popes Legates were there and did labour to the contrary having a Commonitorie or direction from Pope Zozimus so to doe citing therein a Canon out of the Councell of Nice to that purpose Balsamon pag. 592 593 To this Alypius an African Bishop first answered to which the whole Synode did assent That they would reverently observe what what the Councell of Nice had decreed but in those Copies of the Nicene Councell which they had there in Carthage they found no such Decree they decreed therefore to send Embassadors to the Patriarches of Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch for Copies under their hands of the Nicene Councell Two Copies were obtained and the Popes for ever since were detected of falsehood and signified by the Councell Balsamon pag. 567. From the yeare 500 to the 600. The sixth Age. 5. Vnivers Concilium Concilium Constant About the yeere 550. This also approved of the foure precedent Generall Councells 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It confirmed the Doctrines of the fourth Generall Councell saith Balsamon pag. 354. and Surius Tom. 4. in Concilio Florentino Sess 3. 5. apud Baron an 553. n. 39. Concilium Toletanum About the yeere 589. against the Heresie of Arrius which Councell made a most sincere profession of their faith sayes Baronius an 589. n. 10. wherein also they approved the foure first Generall Councels Idem Baronius n. 30. And whereas it was also enacted that after the manner of the East this profession of the faith should be made alwayes before the receiving of the Communion Idem n. 39. In the beginning of this Councell of all Spaine the King Ricaredus made confession of his faith confirmed the foure Generall Councels repeated the Nicene Creed and the Constantinoplitane Creed and after subscribed to them both he and his Queene Surius Tom. 2 pag. 670. for which the whole Councell of the 72. Bishops did glorifie God ibid which faith the Councell doth professe pag. 671. and
promise to preach and teach This is say they the true faith by profession of which the Church through the whole world is reputed and proved to be Catholicke he that liketh not this faith let him be accursed He that shall despise the faith of the Councell of Nice of Constantinople of Ephesus of Chalcedon let him be accursed Then they repeat and record these Creeds Surius pag. 672. From the yeere 600. to the yeere 700. The seventh Age. 6. Vnivers Concilium Concilium Trullanum Surius Tom. 2. pag. 899. About the yeare 680 saith Baronius n. 41. their first Canon did decree that the Apostles Creed should be kept unchangeably without any innovation Balsamon p. 360. They confirme the foure precedent Generall Councels as also the fifth and sixth whereof this was a branch adding Canons to the fifth and sixth and therfore called Quinisexta stiled an aecumenicall Councell also by Baronius Balsamon Concilium Romanum Of 125 Bishops under Pope Agatho who sent their Legats with a profession of their faith to the sixth Councell approving all the precedent Generall Councells This is recorded in the fourth Act of the sixth Councell See Surius Tom. 2. pag 922. Concilium Mantuanum Which in all things consenting to the fifth Generall Councell were Catholickes sayes Baronius anno 605. numb 5. This sixth Generall Synod is called erroneous by Beda saith Bellarmine deservedly The reason I take it was because this Councell did condemne Honorius the Pope of Rome for Haeresie as appeareth by Surius Actione 12 13. and was found to be contained in his Epistles the Councell using all diligence in examining the Records of the Church of Constantinople to see if the originall Epistle sent from Pope Honorius to Sergius of Constantinople did accord with the extracts which were produced constitit it appeared to be so ait 12. apud Surium pag. 990. Bellarm. lib 4. de Pontifice Romano cap. 11. and Baron an 681. doth labour much to excuse this but with as little successe as Baronius would cleare Zosimus for forging the Councell of Nice The Councell was deceived saith Beda and Bellarmine The Tract of the Councell was forged saith Baronius n. 25. Peradventure those Epistles were forged saith Bellarmine loco citato From the yeare 700 to the yeare 800. The eighth Age. Under Charles the Great Concilium Francosurtense for the Historicall and Civill use of Images but against all religious worshipping of them Baron an 794. Here began the Greeke and Latine Church to be divided about Images The Emperors and Councels of the East being sometimes for them sometimes against them And in the West the Churches of France Spaine and Germanie under Charles the Great forbidding them to be worshipped the Pope and his adherents of Rome commanding to worship them Yet all these three Councels did receive and professe the Faith of the six precedent Generall Councels Balsamon pag. 494. cau 1. Coucil Niceni Baronius an 754. n. 30 Surius Tom. 3. pag. 182. Hence arose the division of the Empire Baron an 726. n. 38. Pope Gregorie the second forbidding the Italians to pay the Emperor Leo Isaurus tribute for this onely cause For hee doth commend in the Emperor an every way right religious and irreprovable profession of the Orthodox Faith in his Epistle to the Emperor an 726. Baron n. 26. Wherein Cutbert Archbishop of Canterbury Concilium Saxonum in Anglia an 747. with other Bishops of the Saxons amongst other things decreed that the Presbyters should in the English tongue learne and teach the Lords Prayer and the Creed and that Prayers should be made for Kings and Princes Malmsburiensis de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum cap. 1. The ninth Age. Concilium Aquisgranense From the yeare 800 to the yeare 900. Anno 809. n. 52. It received the six Generall Councels and did professe the Nicene Creed Baron loco citato Concilium Foroniliense This did professe the Nicene Creed and decreed thus Let every Christian commit to memorie the Creed and the Lords Prayer all age all sex c. for without this none can and with this so they abstaine from sinne all may be saved Surius Tom. 3. pag. 262 263. Concilium Constantinopolitanū Anno 861. saith Baronius stiled a Generall Councell by Michaell the Greeke Emperor who summoned it and was present at it consisting of 318 Bishops approving the Nicen Councell as appeareth Canon 8. and the 6th Generall Councell Canon 12. apud Balsamon Concilium Parisiense Anno 825. which condemned the second Nicene and an Epistle of Pope Adrian for worshipping of Images as superstitious holding it lawfull to set up Images but not to worship them Baron an 825. n. 4 5. an 794. n. 43 51. So here are two Councels approved by the Romans the first and second two by them rejected but received the one by the Greeke Church the other by the French Church but all foure professing our Faith and two of them denying an Article of the Roman new Creed videlicet worshipping of Images Tom. 3. pag. 530. Histories saith Surius speake of a three-fold eighth Generall Councell held at Constantinople the first that wherein Photius was made Patriarch The second that which restored Ignatius The third that which after the death of Ignatius restored Photius againe It is worth the note how Surius can deny that this Councell of Paris under Lewis and that of Francford under Charles did decree against the second Nicene Councell for advancing Image-worship and charge us with forgerie seeing all the Chronicles and learned men of that Age recorded it See Baronius an 794. n. 40. From the yeare 900 to the yeare 1000. The tenth Age. This is that Age which was commonly stiled a leaden iron obscure Age because it was as barren of good as iron loaden with a burthen of wickednesse as heavie as lead and obscure for want of Writers saith Baronius an 900. n. 1. An unhappy Age saith Bellarmine in his Chronologie in which were no Councels no Writers of note and the Bishops were such as tooke little care for the Church Surius in this Age recordeth no Councell Generall or Provinciall for after Triburense Concilium which was celebrated under Arnulphus the Emperor who died about the yeare 899. as Baronius accounteth some yeares sooner as Bellarmine Surius hath no Councell till we come to Alexander the third Pope of that name who began his Popedome Anno 1160. that is for two whole Ages and a halfe But Baronius will furnish us with some All three Councels held under Pope Iohn the ninth Concil Romanum 1. Concil Romanum 2. Concil Romanum 3. Con ilium Suessionen an 909. n. 1. Baron Concil Constantinop who in those three yeares of his Papacie held three Councels Ex quibus summam sibi laudem comparavit by which hee got to himselfe great praise saith Baron an 905. n. 1. no doubt these were orthodox Councels in the estimation of
he hath already seemed to say that none of their negative Doctrines pertaine to their faith and that all which is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and that this affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes out of which it will follow that those English Protestants who shall hold some of the 39 Articles and deny the rest may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles which last Consequence if Master Rogers grant I aske why the booke of the Canons doth excommunicate ipso facto such halfe Protestants Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks and not account them members of their Church And why may not Roman Catholikes by as good or better right accouunt Protestants who deny so many points defined in both ancient and recent Generall Councels to be Hereticks excommunicaeed and no members of the ancient and present Catholike Church Rogers That which you require heere I performed in my first Answer in my definition of a Protestant or else it had been no good definition had it not contained all that is essentiall this you know well enough but because you have nothing to answer you will demaund the same question againe Looke into my definition there you shall finde it and I made the same request unto you for a definition of the visible Church and what points you hold to be fundamentall to which you make no answer at all I there also undertooke to prove all our Affirmations which you deny so you doe the like by your Affirmations which we deny my words were these in my former answer Rogers in his first answer In all these I defend the Negative and so it doth belong to you to prove the Affirmative which when you shall doe by testimonies of Writers in all ages I will yeeld unto you for you proving the Affirmative the Negative will fall of it selfe as for example The first instance of Negation in our Articles is part of the sixt Article concerning those bookes of Esdras Tobit Iudith c. which we receive not for Canonicall you doe the proofe is on your side What I require of you I will performe on our side whatsoever is affirmative in our Articles I will maintaine to be affirmed and taught in all Ages as the 1 2 3 4 5 Articles the Affirmative part of the 6 the 7 8 and so in the rest or I will yeeld unto you Give me instance what Affirmation of our Articles you deny and I will prove it in all Ages And I desire you to set downe withall which of your affirmative Articles you receive and whether we agree in the Articles of the Creed or not I will doe the like by you and give you an instance in our Affirmatives Shew me who in every Age did receive the bookes of Esdras Machabees Tobit Iudith c. for Canonicall in the 1 2 3 4 Centurie of yeares This is one of the first points of your Tridentine faith Master Fisher I desire you also for the avoiding of confusion to deliver your opinion whether all the Affirmative Doctrines of the Councell of Trent are matters of faith per se fundamentall and necessary to be held for salvation fide explicita I speake de adultis quibus facultas discendidatur Thus farre in my former Answer to which you have made reply you have neither shewed which of our Affirmative Articles you deny nor which you receive nor have you proved one Instance I gave of your Affirmatives nor as much as expressed what you hold for matters of faith but dissembling all this passe it over with silence unlesse you had thought as the Boy did by his bodged verses that what you wrote would never be read but that men would reade the Titles and number the Pages and there finde written over head Master Rogers weake Grounds Master Rogers weake Arguments would take the rest upon trust would you ever have put Pen to Paper and yet in matters of Controuersies never expresse what your selfe held nor tell us being requested what your owne faith is or to give a reason of your owne faith nor to define your owne Church And answer formally and punctually to no one Argument and frame no one Argument of your owne Hominis est vehementèr abutentis otio literis That a man should offer to write a Tract and that in so sacred a profession as Divinitie and that in a question of so high a nature as these are what is the Christian faith what is the visible Church and herein not answer one question not to bring one Distinction or Definition or frame one Argument in forme or like a Scholler is a mispending of time wasting of Paper and abusing the very name of Learning Divinity as all other Sciences consisteth of Principles and Conclusions the Principles received on both sides are the Scriptures to which you would adde unwritten Traditions you bring not one place of Scripture to maintaine those Affirmative Tenents of yours which we deny you account Articles of faith And as for Theologicall conclusions you inferre none you frame no Argument you make no Syllogisme you give no reason of your faith though Saint Peter require it whom I thought of all the Apostles you did most respect what shall we thinke then but that you have neither Scripture nor reason for your faith I meane in your new Creed in which you dissent from us Fisher I require withall that he give me a substantiall ground well proved out of Scripture why those perticular points which he shall assigne are points of Protestant faith rather then others contained in the 39. Articles if he say as he hath already seemed to say that none of their Negative Doctrines pertaine to their faith and that all that is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and that this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes Rogers He calleth unto me to distinguish between points of Protestant faith and other points contained in the 39 Articles and yet in the next word he is faine to confesse that I distinguished if he say as he hath already seemed to say that none of their Negative Doctrines pertaine unto their faith This I had delivered in my first Answer and yet he still calleth for it yet he must mince it a little and say I seemed to say so great a friend he is to seeming that he will never leave it knowing it to be essentiall to the definition of Sophistry and a Sophister You might have left out your seeming and written plainly that I said so seeing in my Answer to your first Paper I spent nere a page in explicating and exemplifying this Distinction and in my Answer to your second Paper which was delivered me as the worke of five Jesuites then conversant about Gondamors house
I wrote thus As I did admonish Master Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation and Negation so I doe these men and that faith is Affirmation not Negation for no man beleeveth what he denieth Secondly In points of faith I like Master Fishers Rule They that are in the Affirmative must prove Now all that we affirme they affirme as one God three persons all the Creed So that we need not prove what our Adversaries do confesse But in those points in variance between us they are to prove because they are Affirmative we Negative as unwritten Traditions Latine Service Invocation of Saints c. Thus farre in my former Answer This is saying plainly this is not seeming Whereas you inferre that seeing all which is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes I grant the Consequence what is this to the question whether we are of the visible Church or no this which you would inferre doth rather prove us to be a part of the visible Church then any way gaine-say it Thus They which have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome are parts of the visible Church But the Protestants have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome Ergo The Protestants are a part of the visible Church The minor Master Fisher would inferre out of my Grounds as if I would deny it no I grant it and so I hope will he the major then the conclusion must follow We differ from you in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines and Discipline which you terme to be points of faith but we deny They are corruptions of faith Innovations Idolatrous Antichristian Doctrines You would force them upon us as points of faith we refuse them because the Scripture doth not expresse them the Primitve Church did not know them and the greatest part of the Christian Church to this day doth not approve them And your owne writers are distracted into many and divers opinions concerning them Paulus venet l. 1. 2 What Antiquity have you for your halfe Communion Worshipping of Images c. What Universality seeing the Church of Greece of Syria the Georgians Circassians Mengiellians Breitenbachius Purgr c. de Iacobitis Vitrivius Histor orientalis c. 76. the Moscovits and Russians the Christians of Babylon of Assyria Mesopotamia Parthia Media of Cassar Samarcham Charcham Chinchtalis Tanguth Suchir Ergimal Tenduck Caracam Mangi the Iacobits whose Sect is extended and spred abroad in some fourty Kingdomes which I assure my selfe is more large then all the Roman Church do communicate in both kindes worship not Images deny Purgatory and which with you is more then all the rest deny the Popes Supremacy So you have neither Antiquity nor Universality to which I might adde nor Consent among your selves in those additions of yours contained in your new Creed As for one Instance the Councell of Trent hath made the bookes of Machabees Canonicall Melitus Sav. Origenes Athanasius Hilarius Epiphanius Cyrillus Nazianzen Amphiloch Hieronymus Ruffinus which is left out of the Canon by ten Fathers that is I take it by all the Fathers that dyed within 400 yeares after the Incarnation and wrot of that subject Your Nicholaus Lyranus Dionysius Carthusianus Hugo and Thomas de Vio Cardinals whereof this last was one of the most learned that ever the Church of Rome had insomuch that in the Councel of Trent it was said I thinke no man heere doth thinke himselfe so great a Divine but that he might learne of Cajetan All these I say of your side exclude those Bookes from the Canon as we doe yet will you not say they were of another faith then the Church of Rome which you must say if your new Creed and Decrees of Councels be points of faith as you here say And lest you should escape with your wandring discourses and your flying from the question I will presse my argument in forme Whosoever denyeth the new Creed or any Articles thereof the Councell of Trent or any Doctrine thereof is an Hereticke and denyeth the faith But Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio Cajetan both Cardinals deny some Articles of the new Creed and some Doctrines of the Councell of Trent Ergo Lyra Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio are Hereticks and deny the faith I am sure you will hold this Conclusion to be false if so then one of the premisses must be false not the minor ergo the major which is your Tenet whereby you would proue us to be Hereticks and to deny the faith Fisher Out of which it will further follow that those English Protestants who shall hold some of the 39 Articles and deny the rest may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles Rogers I grant it doth follow so that those same Articles which they deny be not those Articles which concerne the Unity of the Godhead the Trinitie of persons and all those things which are contained in the Creed I say therefore they differ in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or Discipline not in faith so they receive the Scriptures and Apostles Creed Fisher Which last consquence if Master Rogers grant I aske why the bookes of Canons doth excommunicate ipso facto such halfe Protestants Rogers They may be excomunicated for gaine saying Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or the established Discipline of the Church they may be excommunicated as erroneous Shismaticks Fisher Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks and not account them members of their Church Rogers Andrewes in his Defence of the Apologie for the other Bilson in his perpetuall government of the Church Carleton against the Appeal They must be imprisoned as Schismaticks Our Bishops doe all professe that there are no Puritane Doctrines that the difference is onely in matter of Discipline they count them neither Hereticks nor wholly excluded out of the Church here you have supposed two falshoods in two lines those learned Protestants from beyond the Seas whose Discipline doth somewhat vary from ours doe testifie that the purity of Doctrine doth flourish in England purely and sincerely So Beza from Geneva that by Queeene Elizabeths comming to the Crowne God againe had restored his Doctrine and true worship So Zanchius that the whole compasse of the world hath never seene any thing more to be wished then is her Government So Daneus Fisher And why not Roman Catholicks by as good or better right account Protestants who deny so many points defined in both ancient and recent Generall Councels to be Hereticks Excommunicated and no members of the Ancient and present Catholick Church Rogers If we did the one you may doe the other but I have shewed the falshood of your supposition that we count them Hereticks who discent from us in any of our Articles they may be erroneous in a lesser nature then Heresie turbulent in those errours they may be Schismaticks