your yeares great exercyse do excell therin but fayth coÌ„systeth not only in learning but in simplicytie of beleuing that which Godes word teacheth therfore I wil be glad to heare bothe of your lordship or of any other that god hath reuealed vnto by his worde the true doctrine therof thanke you that it dothe please you to take paynes herein Chiche You take the first alleged amisse as though al meÌ„ should be taught by inspiration not by learnyng Howe do we beleue the Gospel but by the authoritie of the church and because the same hath allowed it Phil. S. Paule sayeth he learned not the Gospel by men neyther of men but by the reuelatioÌ„ of Iesus Christ which is a sufficieÌ„t profe that the gospel taketh not his authoritie of maÌ„ but of God only Chichest S. Paule speaketh but of his owne knowlage how he came therto Phil. Naye he speaketh of the Gospel generally which coÌ„meth not from maÌ„ but from God that the churche must only teache that which coÌ„meth froÌ„ God and not mans preceptes Chiches Doth not S. Austine saye I would not beleue the Gospel yf the authoritie of the churche dyd not moue me therto phil I grauÌ„t that the authoritie of the churche dothe moue the vnbeleuers to beleue but yet the churche geueth not the worde his authoritie for the worde hath his authoritie only froÌ„ God not of man Men be but disposers therof for fyrst the worde hath his beyng before the churche and the worde is the foundacion of the churche and first is the foundacion sure before the buyldyng theron can be stedfast Chiches I perceaue you mistake me I speake of the knowlage of the Gospell and not of the authoritie for by the churche we haue all knowlage of the Gospel phil I confesse that For fayth cometh by hearyng and hearyng by the worde and I acknowlage that God appointeth an ordinary meanes for meÌ„ to come vnto knowlage nowe and not miraculously as he hath done in tymes paste yet we that be taught by men must take hede that we learne nothing else but that which was taught in the primatiue churche by reuelation Here came in the B. of Yorke and the bishop of Bathe and after they had saluted one an other and commoned a whyle together the Archbishop of Yorke called me vnto them sayeng Yorke Syr we hearyng that you are out of the waye are come of charitie to enforme you and to bring you into the true fayth to the catholike churche agayne willyng you first to haue humilitie and to be humble and willyng to learne of your betters for else we can do no good wyth you and God sayeth by the Prophete On whome shall I reste but on the humble and meke and suche as tremble at my worde Nowe yf you will so be we wil be glad to trauail with you phil I know that humilitie is the dore wherby we enter vnto Christ I thaÌ„ke his goodnes I haue entred in at the same vnto him wil with al humilitie heare whatsoeuer truth you shal speake vnto me Yorke What be the maters you staÌ„de on and require to be satisfyed Phil. My lorde and it please your grace we were entred in a good mater before you came of the churche and howe we should knowe the truth but by the churche Yorke In dede that is the heade we nede to beginne at for the churche beyng truly knoweÌ„ we shal soner agre in the particular thynges phil Yf your lordships can proue the churche of Rome to be the true catholike churche it shall do muche to persuade me towarde that you would haue me inclyne vnto Yorke Why let vs go to the definition of the churche what is it phil It is a coÌ„gregation of people dispersed through the worlde agreyng together in the worde of God vsyng the sacramentes and al other thinges accordyng to the same Yorke This diffinitioÌ„ is of many wordes to no purpose Phil. I do not precisely diffyne the churche but declare vnto you what I thinke the church is Yorke Is the church visible or inuisible Phil. It is bothe visible and inuisible the inuisible church is of all the electes of God only the visible consisteth of bothe good and bad vsing all thinges in fayth according to Goddes word Yorke The churche is an vniuersal coÌ„gregacioÌ„ of faythful people in Christ through the worlde which this word catholik doth wel expresse for what is catholike elles doth it not signifie vniuersal Phil. The churche is diffined by S. Austen to be called catholike in this wyse Ecclesia ideo dicitur catholica quia vniuersaliter perfecta est in nullo claudicat The church is called therfore catholike bicause it is throughly perfyt and halteth in nothing Yorke Nay it is called catholyke bycause it is vniuersally receyued of all Chrystian nations for the most parte Phil. The churche was catholike in the Apostles tyme yet was it not vniuersally receyued of the world but bicause their doctrine which they had receyued of Christ was perfect and appointed to be preached and receaued of the hole world therfore it is caled the catholike fayth all persons receyuing the same be to be counted the catholike churche And S. Austine in an other place writeth ad Neophitos that the catholike church is the which beleueth a right Yorke Yf you will learne I wil shewe you by S. Austine writing against the Donatistes that he proueth the catholike churche by two principall pointes which is vniuersalitie and successioÌ„ of bishops in one apostolycal sea from tyme to tyme. Nowe thus wil I make myn argumeÌ„t The churche of Rome is vniuersal hath had his succession of bishops from tyme tyme Ergo it is the catholike churche howe answere you to this argumeÌ„t phil I deny the antecedent That the catholike churche is only knowen by vniuersalitie by succession of bishops Yorke I wil proue it And with that he brought furthe a boke which he had noted out of the doctors and turned to his commoÌ„ places therin of the churche recyted one or two out of S Austen specially out of his epistle written against the Donatistes Here S. Austen manifestly proueth that the Donatistes were not the catholike churche bicause they had no succession of bishops in their opinion neyther vniuersalitie and the same force hath S. Austins argument against you phil My lord I haue wayed the force of that argument before nowe And I perceiue it maketh nothing against me nether it commeth to your purpose for I will stand to the tryall of S. Austen for the apê“bacion of the catholike churche where of I am For S. Austine speaketh of vniuersalitie ioyned with veritie of faythful successours of Peter before corruption came into the churche and so yf you can deduce your argumeÌ„t for the sea of Rome now as S. Austen might do in his tyme I would say it might be of some force otherwise not Yorke S. Austine proueth the catholike churche
principally by succession of bishops and therfore you vnderstaÌ„de not S. Austine for what I pray you was the opinion of the Donatistes against whom he wrote can you tell what contrey were they of phil They were a certen secte of men affirming among other heresies that the dignitie of the sacramentes depended vpon the worthynes of the minister so that if the minister were good the sacrament which he ministred were auayliable or els not Chiches That was their errour and they had none other but that And he red an other authoritie of S. Austins out of a boke which he brought euen to the same purpose that the other was Phil. I chalenge S. Austine to be with me throughly in this poynte and wil stand to his iudgement takyng one place with an other Chiches If you wil not haue the church to be certen I praye you by whom wil you be iudged in maters of controuersy Phil. I do not deny the churche to be certen but I deny that it is necessarily tyed to any place longer then it abideth in the word and for all maner of controuersies the word ought to be iudge Chichest But what yf I take it one way and you an other howe than Phil. S. Austen sheweth a remedy for that willeth quod vnius locus per plura intelligi debeat that one place of the scripture ought to be vnderstanded by the mo Yorke How answere you to this argument Rome hath a knowen successioÌ„ of bishops which your churche hath not Ergo that is the catholik churche and yours is not bicause ther is no suche successioÌ„ can be proued for your churche phil I deny my lord that succession of bishops is an infallible point to knowe the churche by for there may be a succession of bishops knowen in a place and yet there be no churche as at Antioche and at Ierusalem and in other places wher the Apostles abode aswell as at Rome But if you put to the succession of bishops succession of doctrine with all as S. Austine doth I will graunt it to be a good profe for the catholike churche but a locall succession only is nothing vayleable Yorke You will haue no churche then I se well phil Yes my lord I acknowledge the catholik churche as I am bound by my Crede but I can not acknowledge a false church for the true Chichest Why is ther twoo catholike churches then philpot No I knowe ther is but one catholike churche but there haue ben and be at this present that take vpon theÌ„ the name of Christ of his church which be not so in dede as it is writteÌ„ that there be that call them selues APostles and be not so in dede but the sinagoge of Sathan and lyers And nowe it is with vs as it was with the two women in SalomoÌ„s tyme which lay to gether and the one suppressed her child and after went about to chalenge the true mothers childe Chiches What a babling here is with you nowe I se you lacke humilitie you wil go about to teach and not to learne philpot My lords I must desire you to beare with my hastie speche it is my infirmitie of nature all that I speake is to learne by I would you did vnderstand all my mind that I might be satisfied by you through better authoritie Chichest My lord and it please your grace turne the argument vpon him which you haue made and let him shewe the succession of bishops of his church as we can do How say you can you shewe the succession of bishops in your churche from tyme to tyme I tell you this argument troubled doctor Ridley so sore that he could neuer answere it Yet he was a man well learned I dar say you will say phil He was a man so learned that I was not worthy to cary his bookes for learning Chichest I promise you he was neuer hable to answere that he was a man that I loued well and he me For he came vnto me diuers tymes being in prison and conferred with me philpot I wonder my lord you should make this argument which you would turne vpon me for the tryal of my churche wherof I am or that you would make bishop Rydley so ignoraunt that he was not hable to answere it since it is of no force For behold fyrst I denyed you that locall succession of bishops in one place is no necessary point alone to proue the catholike churche by that which I haue denyed you can not proue and is it then reason that you should put me to the tryall of that which by you is vnproued and of no force to conclude against me Chichest I se my lords we do but lose our labours to reason with him he taketh him selfe better learned than we phil I take vpon me the name of no learning I bost of no knowledge but of faith and of Christ and that I am bouÌ„d vndoubtedly to know as I am sure I doo Chichest These heretikes take vpon theÌ„ to be sure of all thinges they stand in you should say rather with humilitie I trust I knowe Christ than that you be sure therof phil Let him doubt of his faith that lysteth God gyue me alwayes grace to beleue that I am sure of his faith and fauoure in Christ Bathe Howe will you be hable to answere heretiks but by the determinatioÌ„ of the knowen catholike churche Phil. I am hable to answere al heretikes by the worde of God and coÌ„uince them by the same Chichest Howe arrogantly that is spoken I dare not say so Phil. My lord I pray you beare with me for I am bold in the truth syde and I speake some what by experience that I haue had with heretykes and I knowe the Arrians be the subtilest that euer were and yet haue I manifest scriptures to beat them downe with all Chiches I perceaue nowe you are the same maner of man I haue heard of which will not be satisfied by learning Phil. Alas my lord why do you say so I do desire most humbly to be taught if ther be any better way that I should learne and hitherto you haue shewed me no better Therfore I pray your lord ship not to misiudge without a cause Baâ—he If you be the true catholike churche than will you hold with the reall presence of Christ in the sacrament which the true churche hath euer mayntayned phil And I my lord with the true churche do holde the same in the dewe ministracion of the sacrameÌ„t but I desire you my lord ther may be made a better conclusion in our first mater before we entre in to any other for if the churche be proued we shall sone agre in the rest In this meane while my lord of Yorke was turning his boke for mo places to helpe forthe his cause Yorke I haue found at lenthe a very notable place which I haue loked for all this while of S. Austine de simpliciate credendi Chichest It is but folly
abstractes of the scriptures and doctors Phil. What so euer you do make them they are no ground of my fayth by the which I ought to be Iudged London I must nedes procede against the to morowe Phil. Yf your lordship so do I wil haue Excepcionem fori for you are not my competent iudge London By what lawe canst thou refuse me to be thy iudge Phil. By the Ciuile lawe De coÌ„petente Iudice London There is no suche tytle in the lawe In what boke is it as connyng a lawer as you be Phil. My lorde I take vpoÌ„ me no great connyng in the lawe but you dryue me to my shyftes for my defence And I am sure yf I had the bokes of the lawe I were able to shewe what I saye London What De competente Iudice I wil go fet thee my bokes There is a tytle in dede De officijs Iudicis ordinarij phil Verely that is the same Competente Iudice which I haue alleged With that he ranne to his studye end brought the hole course of the lawe betwene his haÌ„des which as it myght appeare he had wel occupied by the dust they were enbrued withal London There be the bokes fynde it out yf thou canst and I wyl promyse thee to release thee out of pryson phil My lorde I staÌ„de not here to reason maters of the Ciuile lawe althoughe I am not altogher ignoraunt of the same for that I haue ben a student in the same sixe or seuen yeres but to answere to the articles of fayth with the which you maye lawfully burthen me And where as you go about vnlawfully to procede I chalenge according to my knowlege the benefyte of the lawe in my defence London Why thou wilt answere directly to nothyng thou art charged with al. Therfore saye not herafter but you myght haue ben satisfyed here by learned men yf you would haue declared your mynde phil My lorde I haue declared my mynde vnto you and to other of the bysshops at my last beyng before you desyring you to be satisfied but of one thing wherunto I haue referred al other controuersies the which yf your lordships nowe or other learned men can symply resolue me of I am as contented to be reformable in al thinges as you shal require the whych is to proue that the churche of Rome wherof you are is the catholyke churche Couentrie Why do you not beleue your Crede Credo ecclesiam catholicam phil Yes that I do but I can not vnderstande Rome wherwith al you now burden vs to be the same neither lyke to it S. Asse It is most euident that S. Peter dyd buylde the catholyke churche at Rome And Christ sayd Tites Petrus super hanc petrant edificabo ecclesiam meam Moreouer the succession of byshops in the sea of Rome can be proued from tyme to tyme as it caÌ„ be of none other place so wel which is a manifest probacion of the catholike church as dyuerse doctours do wryte Phil. That you would haue to be vndoubted is moste vncertaine and that by the autoritie which you allege of Christ sayeng vnto Peter Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wyll buylde my churche Marcke wel onles you caÌ„ proue the rock to signifye Rome as you would make me falsly beleue And although you can proue the succession of bishops from Peter yet this is not sufficieÌ„t to proue Rome to be the catholike church onles you can proue the successioÌ„ of Peters fayth whervpon the catholyke church is buylded to haue coÌ„tinued in his successours at Rome at this present to remayne London Is ther any mo churches theÌ„ one catholike churche and I pray you tel me into what fayth were you baptized Phil. I acknowledge one holye catholyke and Apostolyck churche wherof I am a membre I prayse God I am of that catholike fayth of Christ wherinto I was baptised Couentre I praye you can you tel what this worde catholyke doth signifie shewe yf you can Phil. Yes that I can I thanke God The catholyke faythe or the catholyke churche is not as nowe a dayes the people be taught to be that which is moste vniuersal or of moste part of men receyued wherby you do inferre our fayth to hang vpon the multitude which is not so But I esteme the catholyke fayth and the catholike churche to be as S. Austen defineth the same Estimamus fidem catholicam a rebus praeteritis praesentibus futuris We iudge sayth he the catholike fayth of that which hath ben is and shal be So that yf you can be hable to proue that your fayth and churche hath ben from the beginning taught and is and shal be then maye you count your selues catholikes otherwyse not And catholike is a Greke worde compounded of cata which signifieth after or according and holon a sumÌ„ or principle or hole So that catholike church or catholike fayth is as muche to saye the fyrst hole souÌ„de or chiefest fayth London Doth S. Austen saye so as he alledgeth it or dothe he meane thus as he taketh the same howe saye you maister Curtoppe Curtop In dede my lorde S. Austen hath suche a sayeng speaking against the Donatistes that the catholike faythe ought to be estemed of thinges in tymes past and as they are practised according to the same And ought to be through al ages not after a new maner as the Donatistes begaÌ„ to ê“fesse phil You haue sayd wel M. Currop after the meaning of S. Austen And do coÌ„firme that which I haue sayd for the significacion of catholike Couentre Let the boke be sene my lord London I praye you my lorde be content or in good fayth I will breake euen of let all alone Do you thinke the catholyke church vntil it was with in these fewe yeres in the which a few vpon singularitie haue swarued from the same hath erred phil I do not thynke that the catholike churche can erre in doctrine but I require to proue the churche of Rome to be thys catholike churche Curtop I can proue that Ireneus which was within an hundreth yeares after Christ came to Victor then bishop of Rome wisely Curtop to aske his aduise about the excommunicatioÌ„ of certayne heretikes the which he would not haue done by al lykelyhode yf he had not taken him to be supreme head Couentre Marke wel this argument Howe are you able to answere to the same Answere yf you can phil It is sone answered my lorde for that it is of no force neither this facte of Ireneus proueth nomore for the supremacie of the bishop of Rome theÌ„ myne hath done which haue ben at Rome as wel as he and myght haue spoken with the Pope yf I had list and yet I would none in Englande dyd fauour his supremacie more then I. S. Asse You are the more to blame by my fayth of my bodye for that you fauour the same no better Your othe is as great as if a
dog sware by his christendom sence al the catholyke churche vntil these fewe yeares haue taken hym to be supreme head of the churche besydes this good man Ireneus Phil. That is not lykely that Ireneus so toke him or the primatiue churche For I am hable to shewe seuen general coūsels after Ireneus time wherin he was neuer so taken which maye be a sufficient profe that the catholike primatiue churche neuer toke hym for supreme head The other Bis This man wil neuer be satisfyed saye what we can It is but folly to reason any more with him Phil. Oh my lordes would you haue me satisfyed with nothing Iudge I praye you who of vs hath better autoritie he which bringeth the exāple of one man goyng to Rome or I that by these many general councelles am hable to proue that he was neuer so taken in many hūdreth yeres after Christ as by Nicene Ephesyne the fyrst and the second Calcedonen̄ Constantinopolitane Carthaginen̄ Auilien̄ Couentre Why wil ye not admit the churche of Rome to be the Catholyke churche phil Bicause it foloweth not the primatiue catholyke churche neyther agreeth with the same no more then an apple is lyke a nutte Couentre Wherin doth it discent Phil. Yt were to long to recite all but two thinge I wil name the supremacie and transubstāciation Curtop As for transubstantiation albeyt yt was set furth and decreed for an article of fayth not muche aboue thre hūdreth yeres yet yt was alwayes beleued in the churche London Yea that it was very well sayd of you master Curtoppe phil Ye haue sayd right that transubstanciation is but a late plantacion of the bishop of Rome and you are not hable to shew any auncient wryter that the primatiue churche did beleue any suche thinges And with this Curtop shranke awaye And immediatly after the ambassadoure of spayne cam in To whom my lord of London went leauing the other with me To whō I said my lordes yf you can shewe me that this churche of Rome wherof you are membres is the true chatolik churche I shal be content to be one therof And as conformable to the same as you can require me in all thīges For I knowe ther is no saluacion but within the churche Couentre Can you disproue that the churche of Rome is not the catholike churche phil Yea that I am hable but I desire rather to heare of you for the profe therof And seyng I can not haue my request at your handes neyther be satisfied with any probable auctoritie I wil shewe yowe good profe why it is not the catholike churche as it was in deade and owght to be the forme and scolemaistres of the churche to the worldes ende than is not the churche of Rome nowe the catholike churche which dissenteth so farre from the same bothe in doctrine and vse of the sacramentes Couentre Howe proue you that the churche of Rome nowe dissenteth in doctrine and vse of the sacramentes from the primatiue church Phil. Compare the one with the other yt wil sone appeare as you maye see both in Eusebius and in other Ecclesiasticall and auncient writers Couentre What haue you to saye more why it is not the catholike churche Phil. Because it is not by your owne interpretacion of the catholike vniuersall neyther neuer was albeyt you falsely persuade the people that it is soo For the world being diuided in three partes Asia Affrica Europa twoo parts therof Asia and Affrica professīg Christ as well as we did neuer consēt to the church of Rome which is of Europa which is a sufficient testimonie that your faith was neuer vniuersall Couentre How proue you that Phil. All the historiographers which write of the procedinges of the churche do testifie the same Besides that this present tyme doth declare that to be true which I saye For at this present the churche of Asia and Affrica do not consent to the churche of Rome Yea and besides al this the most part of Europa doth not agre neyther alowe the churche of Rome As Germanie the kingdome of Denmarcke the kingdome of Poole a great part of Fraūce England and Zealande which is a manifest probacion that your churche is not vniuersall And after this the bishop of London called awaye the other bishops left with me diuers gentlemen with certayne of his chaplaynes as doctor Sauerson an englisheman which had proceded doctor in Bonnony who after began with me in this maner D. sauer Master Philpot I remembre you beyonde the sea synce the tyme you reasoned with a fryer a notable learned man comming from Venece to Padua in a barge Phil. I can not forgett that for the fryer thretned me to accuse me of heresye as sone as he cam to Padua for that I talked with him so boldly of the truth He was no suche learned man as you name hym to be but onlye in his scoole poynts a good purgatorie frier D. sauer Well he was a learned man for all that And I am sorye to heare that you this daye hauing communed with so many notable learned men are no more conformable to them than you be Phil. I wil be conformable to all them that be conformable to Christ in his worde And I praye you good master Doctor be not soo cōformable to please men more than God contrarie to your learnīg for worldly estimaciōs sake D. sauer No that I am not vpon what occasiō should you thinke thus of me Phil. Vpō no euil that I do knowe of you master doctor but I speake as one wishing that you should not be led away frō the truthe for promocions sake as many doctors doo nowe a dayes D. sauer I haue heard your argumētacions hitherto me thinketh that a great many of the olde auncient writers be agaynst you in that you do not alowe the churche of Rome neyther the supremacie For S. Cipriane which is an olde aunciēt writer doth allowe the bishop of Rome to be the supreme head of the churche Phil. That I am sure of he doth not For he writing vnto Cornelius then bishop of Rome calleth hym but his cōpanyon and felowe bishop neither attributed to hym the name eyther of Pope or elles of any other vsurped termes which now be ascribed to the bishop of Rome to the setting forth of his dignitie Sauer You can not be hable to shewe that S. Ciprian calleth Cornelius his felow bishop Phil. I wil wager with you that I am hable to make that I can shewe it you in Ciprian as I haue sayd Sauer I wil lay non other wager with you but booke for booke it is not so Phil. I agre therto and I pray you one of my lordes chaplaynes to set vs Cipriane hyther for the triall herof And with that one of thē went to my lordes studie brought furth Cipriā And by by he turned to the fyrst booke of his epistles the .4 epistle and there woulde haue semed to haue gathered a strong
elles but the earnest studie that the ministers of God ought to haue in preaching the worde God graunt that you of the cleargy would waie your duetie in this behalfe more then you doo Is this a iuste interpretaciō of the scripture to take pasce oues meas for to be lorde of the hole world In this meane while came in an other bacheler of diuinitie which is a reader of Greke in Oxforde belonging to the bishop And he toke vpon him to helpe master chaunceler Scoler What will you say yf I can shewe you a Greke Autor called Theophilacte to interprete it so Will you beleue his interpretacion Phil. Theophilacte is a late wryter and one that was a fauourer of the bishop of Rome and therfore not to be credited synce his interpretacion is cōtrary to the manifest words of the scriptures and contrarie to the determinacion of many general councels Scolar In what generall coūcel was it otherwyse that the bishop of Rome was not supreme head ouer al. Phil. In Nyce counsel I am sure it was otherwyse For Athanasius was there the chief B. and president of the councel and not the bishop of Rome Scolar Nay that is not so phil Then I perceyue you are better sene in wordes then in knowlege of thinges For I wil gage with you what you will it is so As you maye see in the Epitome of the councell Scoler I wil set Eusebius and shewe the contrarie and the boke of general coūcels He went into my lordes closet and brought Eusebius but the general councels he brought not sayeng for sauyng of his honestie that he could not come by them And there woulde haue defended that it was otherwyse in Eusebius but was not hable to shewe the same And so shranke away cōfounded Chan. The church of Rome hath ben alwayes takē for the hole catholike churche therfore I would aduise you to come into the same with vs. You se al the men of this realme do condemne you And why wil you be so singular Phil. I haue sayd and stil do saye that yf you can be hable to proue it vnto me that I wil be of the some But I am sure that the church which you make so much of Note is a false churche and a Synagoge of Satan And you with the learned mē of this realme do persecute the true churche and condempne suche as be ryghteouser then you Chaun Nay the Deuylles daughter Do you heare maister doctor what he sayeth that the churche of Rome is the deuil Chadsey I wishe you did thinke more reuerently of the churche of Rome ▪ What wil you saye yf I can showe you out of S. Austyne in his epistle writtē to Pope Innocentius that the hole generall coūcel of Cartage dyd allowe the churche of Rome to be chefest ouer al other Phil. I am sure you may shewe no suche thyng And with ther he set the boke of S. Austyne and turned to the epistle but he could not proue his allegacion manyfestly Thou falsifiest S. Austyne Chadsey but by coniectures in this wyse Chadsey Here you maye see that the coūcell of Cartage wrytyng to Innocentius the Bishop calleth the sea of Rome the Apostolike sea And besydes this they wryte vnto him certifyeng him of thinges done in the councel for the condemnacion of the Donatistes requiring his approbations in the same Which they would not haue done yf they had not taken the church of Rome for the supreme heade of others And moreouer you maye see howe S. Austyne dothe proue the churche of Rome to be the chatholike church The succession of false bishops and not of Christes faithe by continual successiō of the byshop vntil his tyme which successyon we can proue vntyl our dayes Therfore by the same reason of S. Austine we saye nowe that the churche of Rome is the catholike churche Phil. Maister doctor I haue considered howe you do waye S. Austyne And contrarye to his meanyng and wordes you would infer your false conclusion A false cōclusion indede As cōcerning that it was called by him the Apostolical sea that is not material to proue the churche of Rome nowe to be the catholike churche I wil graunt it now that it is the apostolike sea in respect that Paule and Peter dyd once there preache the Gospel and abode for a certayne season I would you could proue it to be the Apostolical sea of that true religion and synceritie as the Apostle lefte it and dyd teache the same The which yf ye can do you myght boast of Rome as of the Apostolical sea Otherwyse it is now of no more force then yf the Turke at Antioche and at Ierusalem should boast of the Apostolike seas bycause the Apostles once dyd there abyde and founded the churche of Christ And where as by that the hole coūcel of Carthage dyd wryte vnto Pope Innocētius certifieng him of that was done in the generall counsell and willyng him to set his helping hande to the suppressing of the Donatistes as they had done That facte of the councel proueth nothyng the supremacie of the bishop of Rome no more then yf the hole conuocacion house nowe gathered together and agreyng vpō certaine articles myght sende the same to some Bishop that vpon certaine impedimentes is not present willyng him to agree therto and to set them forth in his dioces The whiche facte doth not make any suche bishop of greater auctoritie then the reste bycause his consente is brotherly required And touching the successiō of the bishoppes of Rome brought in by saynt Austine maketh nothyng nowe therby to proue the same the catholike churche onles you can conclude with the same reason as S. Austyne dothe And the rehersall of the succession of the bishops doth tende to this only to proue the donatistes to be heretykes because they beganne aswel at Rome as in Affrica to foūde an other churche then was groūded by Peter and Paule and by their successours whom he reciteth vntil his tyme which all taught no such doctrine neyther no suche church as the Donatistes And yf presently you be hable to proue by the succession of bishops of Rome wherof you do glory that no suche doctrine hathe ben taught by any of the successours of Peters sea as is nowe taught and beleued of vs you haue good reason Agaynst vs. Otherwise it is of no force as I am hable to declare Chaun Well master doctor you se we can do no good in persuadīg of him let vs mynyster the articles which my lord hath left vs vnto him Howe faye you master Philpot to these articles M. Iohnson I pray you write his answeres phil Master chaunceler you haue no autorytye to enquire of me my belefe in such articles as you go about for that I am not of my lorde of Londōs diocese to be brefe with you I will make no further answere herin then I haue already to the bishop Chaun Why then let vs go our
my lord that your grace do reade him any mo places for he estemeth them not Phil. I esteme thē in as muche as they be of force as your lordship dothe heare me deny no doctors you bring but require the true applicacion of them according to the writers meaning as by his owne wordes I do proue Yorke I wil reade him the place and so make an ende After he had red the sentence he said that by fowre speciall pointes here S. Austine proueth the catholike church The first is by the consēt of al nations the secōd by the Apostolike sea the thryd by vniuersalitie the fourthe by this word catholike Chichest That is a notable place in dede and please your grace philpot I pray you my lord of what church doth S. Austine write the same of Rome or not ▪ Yorke Yea he writeth it of the churche of Rome philpot I wil lay with your lordship as muche as I can make it is not so And let the boke be sene Bathe What arte thou hable to laye that hast nothing Yorke Dothe he not make mention here of the Apostolike sea wherby he meaneth Rome Phil. That is very straytly interpreted my lorde as though the Apostolike sea had ben no where els but at Rome But let it be Rome and yet shal you neuer verifye the same onles all the other cōdicions do go ther with as S. Austine dothe procede withall wherof none except the Apostolike sea can nowe be verifyed of the churche of Rome For the faythe which that sea nowe maintayneth hath not the consent of all nations nether euer had besydes that it can not haue the name of catholyke bycause it diffreth from the catholike churches which the Apostles planted almost in all thinges Yorke Naye he goeth about here to proue the catholike churche by vniuersalitie And howe can you shewe your churche to be vniuersall fyftye or an hundred yeres ago phil That is not material neither any thing against S. Austyne For my churche wherof I am were to be counted vniuersall though it were but in .x. persons bicause it agreeth with the same that the Apostles vniuersally did plāte Yorke I perceyue you are an obstinate man in your opinion and will not be taught Wherfore it is but lost labore to talke with you any lenger you are a member to be cut of Chichest I haue heard of you before howe you troubled the good bishop of Winchester before and nowe I see in you that I haue heard Phil. I trust you see no euill in me by this I desire of you a sure ground to build my fayth on and if you shewe me none I pray you speake not yll of him that meaneth well Chichest Thou arte an impudent felow as I haue commoned with all Phil. That is spokē vncharytably my lord to blaspheme him whom you can not iustly reproue Chichest Why you are not God blasphemy is counted a rebuke to God-ward and not to man phil Yes it may be aswel verified of an infamy layed to man speaking in Goddes cause as you nowe do laye vnto me for speaking frely the truthe afore God to mayntayne your vayne religion you are voyde of all good grounde I perceyue you are blinde guydes and leaders of the blind and therfore as I am bound to tel you verye hypocrites tyrānously persecuting the truthe which otherwise by iust order you are hable to do by no meanes Your owne doctors and testimonyes which you bring be euidentlye against you and yet you wil not see the truthe Chichest Haue we this thanke for our good will comming to instructe thee phil My lordes you must beare with me synce I speake in Christes cause and bicause his glory is defaced and his people cruelly and wrongfully slain by you bicause they will not consent to the dishonour of God to hypocrisie with you Yf I told you not your fault it should be required at my handes in the day of iudgement therfore knowe you ye hipocrites in dede that it is the spirite of God that telleth you your synne and not I. I passe not I thanke God of al your crueltie God forgeue it you and gyue you grace to repent And so they departed The same day at night before supper the bishop sent for me into his chappel in the presence of Archdeacon Harpesfild doctor Chadsey in the presence of other his Chaplayns and his seruauntes MAster Philpot I haue by sundry meanes gone about to do you good and I maruail you do so litle considre it By my truthe I can not tell what to say to you Tel me directly whether you wil be a conformable man or no and wher vpon you chifly stand Phil. I haue told your lordship often tymes playne ynough where on I stand chiefly requiring a sure probatiō of the churche wherunto you cal me Harpel S. Austine writing against the Donatistes declareth foure special notes to knowe the church by the cōsent of many nations the faith of the sacraments confirmed by antiquitie succession of bishops vniuersalitie London I pray you master Archdeacō fett the booke hither it is a notable place let him se it And the boke was brought and the bishop red it demaunding howe I could answere the same Phil. My lord I like S. Austins foure points for the tryal of the catholik churche wherof I am For it can abide euery point therof together which yours can not doo Harpes Haue not we succession of bishops in the sea and church of Rome wherfor then do you deny our churche to be the catholike churche Phil. S Austine doth not put succession of bishops only to be sufficient but he addeth the vse of the sacramentes according to antiquitie and doctrine vniuersally taught and receyued of most nations from the beginning of the primatiue church the which your churche is far from But my churche can auouche all these better then yours therfore by S. Austins iudgement which you here bring myne is the catholike churche and not yours Harpes Chad. It is but foly my lord for you to reason with him for he is irrecuperable Phil. That is a good shift for you to runne vnto when you be confounded in your owne sayenges and haue nothing els to say you are euidently deceyued and yet will not see it when it is layd to your face Here ende as many of Iohn̄ Philpots examinacions as came to the printors handes and assone as the rest may be come by thou shalt haue it good reader by the will of God In the meane tyme refreshe thy selfe with this praising God for the perseueraunce of this cōstaūt learned martir and praye hartly for the rest of Christes poore afflicted church Geue God the glorye Iesus is God with vs. An Apologie of Iohan Philpot written for spitting vpon an Arrian with an inuectiue against the Arrians the very natural chyldren of Antichrist with an admonition to all that be faythfull in Christ to beware of them and of other late sprong heresies as of
that mater but I am sure it wylbe layd against me to my preiudice when I come to iudgement Colle Why then you may speake by protestacion phil But what shal my protestacion auayle in a cause of heresie as you cal it yf I speake otherwyse thē you wil haue me synce that which I spake in the conuocacion house beyng a place priuiledged can not now helpe me London But M. D. Colle maye I not procede agaynst hym for that offence he hath done in my diocese Colle You may cal him before you my lorde yf he be founde in your diocese Phil. But I haue by force ben brought out of myne owne diocese to my lordes require to be iudged of myne owne ordinarie And therfore I knowe M. D. wil not say of his knowledge that your lordship ought to procede agaynst me And here M.D. would saye nothyng worcest Do you not thynke to fynd before my lorde here as good equitie in your cause as before your owne ordinarie Phil. I can not blame my lorde of Londons equitie with whom I thanke his lordship I haue founde more gentlenes synce I came then of myne owne ordinarie I speake it for no flatterie this twelue moneth and thys halfe before who neuer would cal me to answere as his lordship hath done nowe twyse Sed nemo prohibetur vti iure suo But I ought not to be forstalled of my right And therfore I chalenge the same for diuerse other consideracions Londō Now you can not say herafter but that ye haue ben gently cōmuned withall of my lordes here And yet you wylfull and obstinate in your errour and your owne opinions will not shewe any cause why you wil not come into the vnitie of the churche with vs. Phil. My lordes that I do not declare my mynde according to your expectacion is as I haue sayd because I can not speake without present daunger of my lyfe but rather then you should reporte me by this eyther obstinate or selfe willed without any iuste groūde whervpon I stande I wyl open vnto you somwhat of my mynde or rather the hole desyring your lordshippes which seme to be the pillers of the churche of Englande to satisfye me in the same And I wil referre al other causes in the which I dissent from you into one or two articles or rather to one which includeth them both in the which yf I can by the scriptures be satisfied at your mouthes I shall as willyngly agree to you as any other in al pointes London These heretikes com alwayes with their yffs as this mā doeth now sayng yf he cā be satisfied by the scriptures so that he will allwayes haue this exception I am not satisfied although the mater be neuer so playnly proued agaynst him No proofe but prailyng But wil you promise to be satisfied yf my lordes take summe paynes about you Phil. I saye my lorde I wil be satisfied by the scriptures in that I stande And I processe here before God his eternal sonne Iesus Christ my saueour and the holy gost hys angelles you here present that be Iudges of that I speake that I do not stand in any opinion of wilfulnes or singularitie but only vpon my conscience certaynly informed by Goddes worde from the which I dare not goo for feare of damnacion And this is the cause of myne earnestnes in this behalfe London I will trouble my lordes no longer seing that you wil not declare your mynd Phil. I am about so to do yf yt please your lordship to heare me speake Bath Gyue hym leaue my lorde to speake that he hath to saye Phil. My lordes it is not vnknowē to you that the chyef cause why you do count me and suche as I am for heretikes because we be not at vnitie with your churche You saye you are of the true churche And we saye we are of the true churche You say that who is out of your churche is dampned And we thinke veryly on the other syde that yf we departe from the true church wheron we are graffed in Godes worde we should stande in the state of dampnacion Wherfore yf your lordships can bring any better auctorities for your churche than we can do for ours and proue by the scriptures that the church of Rome nowe of the which you are is the true catholike churche as in all your sermons writinges and argumētes you do vpholde And that all christē persons owght to be ruled by the same vnder payne of dāpnation as you saye and that the same churche as you pretend haue auctoritie to entreprete the scriptures as it semeth her good and that all men are bounde to folowe suche interpretacions only I shal be as conformable to the same church as you maye desire me the which otherwyse I dare not Therfore I require you for Goddes sake to satisfie me in this Cole Yf you stād vpō this point onlye you maye sone be satisfied you list Phil. It is the thing that I require And to this I haue sayd I wil stand referre al other controuersies I stande nowe agaynst you wyl put my hande therto yf you mistrust my worde London I praie you maister Philpot what fayth were you of .xx. yeares ago this man will haue euery yeare a new fayth Phil. My lord to tell you plain I thinke I was of no fayth for I was thā a wicked lyuer and knewe not God thā as I owght to do God forgyue me London No were that is not soo I am sure you were of some fayth Phil. My lord I haue declared you on my conscience what I than was and iudge of my selfe And what is that to the purpose of the thing I desire to be satisfied of you London Maister Archdeacon Colle I praye you say your mynd to hym Cole What will you saye yf I can proue that it was decreed by a vniuersall counsel in Athanasius tyme that al the christiane church should folowe the determinacion of the churche of Rome but I do not nowe remembre where phil If you master doctor can shewe me the same graunted to the sea of Rome by the auctoritie of the scripture I will gladlye herken therto But I thinke you be not hable to shewe any such thing for Athanasius was precident of Nicene counsell there was no suche thing decreed I am sure Cole Though it were not than yt might be at an other tyme. Phil. I desire to see the profe therof And vpon this maister Harpesfyld Chaūceler to the bishop of London brought in a boke of Ireneus which certayne leaues turned in layd it before the bishops to helpe them in their perplexitie yf it might be the which after the bishops of Bath Glocester had reade together the bishop of Glocester gaue me the booke Glocest Take the booke master Philpot and loke vpon that place and ther may you see howe the churche of Rome is to be folowed of all men Phil. I toke the
booke and read the place The which after I had read I sayd it made nothing against me but against the Arriās and other heretiks against whom Ireneus wrote prouīg that they weare not to be credityd because they did teache and folowe after straunge doctrine in Europa that the chefe churche of the same was founded by Peter and Paule and had to his tyme continued by faythfull succession of the faythfull Bishops in preachyng the true Gospel as they had receyued it of the Apostles and nothyng lyfe to the late sprong heretikes c. Wherby he cōcludeth against thē that they were not to be heard neyther to be credited The which thing yf you my lordes be able to proue nowe of the churche of Rome then had you as good autoritie against me in my cause nowe as Ireneus had against those heretikes But the church of Rome hath swarued frō that truthe and simplicitie of the Gospell which it maintained in Ireneus tyme and was vncorrupted frō that which it is nowe Wherfore your lordships can not iustly applie the autoritie of Ireneus to the churche of Rome nowe which is so manifestlye corrupted from the primatiue Churche London So wil you say stil it maketh nothing for the purpose what so euer autoritie we bring and wil neuer be satisfyed Phil. My lorde when I do by iust reason proue that the autorities which be brought against me do not make to the purpose as I haue already proued I trust you wil receyue myne answere worcest It is to be proued most manifestly by al auncient wryters that the sea of Rome hath alwayes folowed the truthe and neuer was deceyued vntil of late certayne heretikes had defaced the same Phil. Let that be proued I haue done worcest Nay you are of suche arrogācie singularitie vayne glorie that you wil not se it be it neuer so wel proued Phil. Ha my lordes is it nowe tyme thynke you for me to folowe singularitie or vaynglorie synce it is nowe vpō daunger of my lyfe and death not onlye presently but also before God to come and I knowe yf I dye not in the true faythe I shall dye euerlastingly again I knowe yf I do not as you would haue me you will kyll me and many thousandes moo Yet had I leuer perishe at your handes than to perishe eternally And at this tyme I haue lost al my cōmodities of this worlde and nowe lye in a colhouse where a man would not laye a dogge with the which I am wel contented Cole Where are you hable to proue that the churche of Rome hath erred at any tyme and by what historie certaine it is by Eusebius that the churche was stablyshed at Rome by Peter and Paule and that Peter was Bisshop .xxv. yeres at Rome Phil. I knowe wel that Eusebius so wryteth but yf we compare that which S. Paule writeth to the Galathiās the first it wil manifestly appere the cōtrarie that he was not halfe so long there He lyued not past .xxxv. yeares after he was called to be an Apostle And Paul maketh mencion of his abidyng after Christes death more then .xviij. yeres Colle What did Peter wryte vnto the Galathians Phil. No I saye Paule maketh mencion of Peter wrytyng to the Galathians of his abiding And further I am hable to proue bothe by Eusebius and other historiographers that the church of Rome hath manifestly erred and at this present doth erre because she agreeth not with that which they wrote The primatiue churche dyd vse according to the Gospel And ther nedeth none other profe but cōpare the one with the other London Hearke my lordes wise parabable I maye compare this man to a certayne man I reade of which fell into a disperation and went into a wood to hang him selfe And when he came there he went vewyng of euery tree and could fynde none on the which he myght vouchesaffe to hang himselfe But I wil not applie it as I myght I praye you maister doctor go forth with him Nother you nor they are hable in this case Colle My lorde there be on euery syde on me that be better hable to answer him And I loue not to falle in disputacion for that nowe a dayes a man shall but sustayne shame and obloquy therby of the people I had leuer shewe my mynde in wrytyng Phil. And I had leuer that you should so do then otherwyse For thē a mā may better iudge of your wordes then by argument And I beseche you so doo But yf I were a ryche man I durst wager an hundreth poundes that you shal not be hable to shewe that you haue sayd to be decreed by a general coūsel in Athanasius tyme. For this I am sure of that it was concluded by a general counsel in Affrica many yeres after that none of Affrica vnder payne of excōmunication should apeale to Rome the which decre I am suer they would not haue made yf by the scriptures it had bene by an vniuersall counsell that all men should abyde and folowe the determinacion of the churche of Rome Colle But I can shewe that they reuoked that errour agayne Phil. So you saye maister doctour But I pray you shewe me where I haue hetherto heard nothing of you for my contentation but bare wordes without any autoritie London What I praye you ought we to dispute wyth you of our fayth Iustinian in the lawe hath a tytle De fide catholica to the contrarie Phil. I am certayne the ciuil lawe hath suche a constitucion but our fayth must not depende vpon the ciuil lawe For as S. Ambrose sayeth Non lex sed fides congregauit Ecclesiam Not the lawe but the gospel sayeth he hath gathered the church together worcest Maister Philpot you haue the spirite of pryde wherwith ye be ledde which wil not let you yelde to the truth Leaue it for shame Phil. Sir I am suer I haue the spirite of fayth by the which I speake at this present Neither am I ashamed to stand in my fayth Glocest What do you thynke yourselfe better learned then so many notable learned men as be here Phil. Elyas alone had the truthe whē there were foure hundreth priestes against him worcest Oh you would be coūted now for Helyas And yet I tel thee he was deceiued For he thought ther had ben none good but him selfe and yet he was deceyued for ther was .vii. hundreth besydes hym Phil. Yea but he was not deceyued in doctrine as the other .vii. hūdreth were worc By my fayth you are greatly to blame that you can not be content to be of the churche which euer hath ben of that faythful antiquitie Phil. My lorde I knowe Rome haue ben there where I sawe your lordship worc In dede I dyd flye from hence thither And I remember not that I sawe you there But I am sorye that you haue ben there for the wyckednes whych you haue sene there peraduēture causeth you to
argument for the supremacie of the bisshop of Rome because he sayeth it goeth not wel with the churche wheÌ„ the hygh priest is not obeyed which supplieth the â—â—ede of Christ after Goddes worde and the consent of his felow bishoppes and the agrement of the people Sauer Howe can you auoyd this place which maketh so playnly for the B. of Rome his supremacie phil It maketh not so playne M. doctour on your sede as you gather as by and by I wyl gyue you to vnderstande But fyrst I chalenge the wager whiche we made that your boke is myne For here you may see that he calleth Cornelius his felowbishop as he dothe also in other places And nowe for the vnderstanding of that place you do misconstrue it to make the hyghe priest only for the B. of Rome and otherwyse then it was in his tyme. For ther were by Nicene couÌ„sel foure Patriarkes appointed The Patriarke of Hierusalem the Patriarke of Constantinopole the Patriarke of Alexandria and the Patriarke of Rome of which foure the Patriarke of Rome was placed lowest in the couÌ„sel and so continued many hundreth yeres for that tyme of .vij. or .viij. general councelles as I am hable to shewe Therfore s CipriaÌ„ wryting to Cornelius Patriarke of Rome whom he calleth his felowe bishop fyndeth him selfe offended that certaine heretikes beyng iustly excoÌ„municated as the NouaciaÌ„s were by him dyd flee from his diocese which was theyr chefe bishop refusing to be obedient vnto him and to be reformed as to the bishop of Rome or to the Patriarke of Constantinopole And there were receyued in communion of congregacion in derogacion of good ordre and discipline in the churche and to the maintayning of heresies and scismes And that heresies did spring vp and scismes daylye aryse herof that obedience is not geuen to the priest of God nor once consydered to be in the churche for the tyme the priest and for the tyme the Iudge in Christes steade as in the decre of Nicene couÌ„sel was apointed not meaning the B. of Rome only but euery Patriarke in his precinct Who had euery one of them a college or cathedrall churche of learned priestes in hearing of whom by a conuocacion of all his felowes bisshoppes with the consent of the people al heresies were determined by the word of God And this is the meanyng of s Cyprian Sauer You take it so but it semeth to me otherwyse phil Vpon what ground it should seme otherwise vnto you I knowe not but this meaning which I haue declared the general counsels .vij. or .viij. one after an other confirmed it so to be whiche did not alowe one supreme head onlye pen. Ther were not so many generall councelles but foure only alowed phil That is not so M. Pendleton Although ther be foure specially alowed for the confirmacion of the Trinitie but beside these foure ther were many other general councelles as you maye learne by many wryters Achaplayn Did not Christ buylde his churche vpon Peter S. Cyprian sayeth so phil S. Cyprian De simplicitate prelatorum declareth in what respect he so sayd In persona vnius he is Dedit Dominus omnibus claues vt omnium vnitatem denunciaret God gaue in persone of one man to all the keyes that he myght signifye the vnitie of all men And also S. Austen sayeth in the .10 homelie of saint IohnÌ„ Si in Petro non esset ecclesiae misterium noÌ„ ci diceret Dominus tibi dabo claues si autem hoc Petro dictum est non habet ecclesia si autem ecclesia habet quando claues accepit ecclesiam totam designauit Yf in Peter had not ben the mysterie of the churche the lorde had not said vnto hym I will geue vnto thee the keyes Fo yf that were sayd vnto Peter the churche hath them not yf the churche haue them when Peter receyued them he signifyeth the hole church As also s Hierome a priest of Rome wrytyng to Nepotian sayeth that al churches do leane to their owne pastors where he speaketh of the Ecclesiastical hierarchie or regiment where he maketh no mencion of the bishop of Rome And ad Euagium he sayeth that where so euer a bisshop be whether it be at Rome or at Euagie or at RegiuÌ„ he is of one power and of one iurisdiccion Sauer S. Hierom De celesti hierarchia It was Dionisius you meane Phil. I say not that Hierom wrote any boke so entytled but I saye that in the epistle by me alledged he maketh mencion of the ecclesiastical regiment Sauer I woÌ„der you wil stand so stedfast in your errour to your owne destructioÌ„ phil I am sure we are in no errour by the promise of Christ made to the faythful on s which is that he wil gyue to his true churche suche a spirit of wisdome that the aduersaries therof should neuer be hable to resist And by this I know we are of the truth for that neyther by reasonyng neyther by writing your synagog of Rome is hable to answere Wher is ther one of you all that euer hath ben able to answere any of the godly learned ministers of Germanie who haue disclosed your couÌ„terfaict religion Which of you all at this daye is hable to answere Caluynes institucion which is minister of Geneua Sauer A goodlye minister in deade of receyt of cuspurses ruÌ„nagates traytours And of late I can tel you there is suche contention fallen betwene hym and his owne sects that he was fayne to flee the towne about predestinacion I tell you truth for I cam by Geneua hyther Phil. I am sure you blaspheme that godly man and that godlye churche where he ys minister as it is your churches condicion when you can not answer meÌ„ by learnyng to oppresse theÌ„ with blasphemies and false reports For in the mater of predestinacion he is in non other opinion theÌ„ all the doctors of the churche be agreyng to the scriptures Sauer Men be hable to answer hym yf they lust And I praye you which of you haue answered bishope Fysshers boke phil Yes master Doctor that booke is answered and answered agayne yf you lyst to seeke what hath ben written agaynst hym And after this Doctor storie came in to whom I sayd master doctor you haue done me greate iniurie without lawe haue straytlye imprisoned me more lyke a dogge then a man And besides thys you haue not kept promise with me For you promised that I shuld be Iudged the next day after Storie I am come nowe to kepe promise with yt. Was ther euer suche a faÌ„tasticall man as this ys Nay he ys no man he ys a beaste Yea those heretikes be worse then brute beastes for they will vpon a vayne singularitie take vpon them to be wyser theÌ„ all men being in dede veray fooles and asseheades not hable to mayntayne that which of an arrogaunt obstinacie they do stande in Phil. Master Doctor I am content to abyde your rayling Iudgement of me nowe saye what you will
the sacrament bothe to be a signe and the thing it selfe when it is duely ministred after the institution of Christ London You maye se howe he goeth about the bushe as he hath done before with my lordes of the clergie and dare not vtter his mynde playnly Ryche Shewe vs what maner of presence you alowe in the sacrament Phil. Yf it shal please you my lorde of London to geue my leaue to procede orderly therunto and to let me declare my mynde wtout interruption I wil throughly open my mynde therin L. Shand. I pray you my lorde let him speake his mynde Phil. My lordes that at the first I haue not playnly declared my iudgement vnto you is this bicause I can not speake herof without the daunger of my lyfe Ryche Ther is none of vs here that seketh thy lyfe or meane to take any auauntage of that thou shalt speake Phil. Although I mistrust not your honourable lordshippes that be here of the temporaltie yet here is one that fytteth against me appointing to my lorde of London that wil laye it to my charge euen to the death Notwithstandyng seyng your honours do require me to declare my mynde of the presence of Christ in the sacrament that ye maye perceyue that I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ neither do mayntayne any opinion without probable and sufficient autoritie of the scripture I wil shewe frankly my mynde without al colour what so euer shal ensewe vnto me therfore so that my lorde of London wyll not let me to vtter my mynde Ryche My lorde permit hym to saye what he can seyng he is willyng to shewe his mynde London I am cōtent my lordes let him saye what he can I wil heare him Phil. That which I do entend to speake vnto you right honourable lordes I do protest here first before God his Angels that I speake it not neither of vain-glorie neither of singularitie neither of wilful stubburnes but truly vpō a good conscience groūded on goddes worde against that which I dare not do for feare of dampnaciō which wil folowe that is done contrary to knowledge Neither do I disagre to the procedinges of this realme in religion for that I loue not the Quene whō I loue frō the bottō of my hart but because I ought to loue feare God in his worde more then man in his lawes Though I stande as I seme to do in this consideration and for none other By what thinges the cleargie deceaueth the hole realme as God I cal to witnesse There be two thinges principally by the which the cleargie at this daye dothe deceyue the hole realme That is the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ and the name of the catholike churche the which bothe they do vsurpe hauing in dede none of them bothe And as touching their sacrament whych they terme of the Altar I saye nowe as I sayd in the conuocacion house that it is not the sacrament of Christ neither in the same is ther any maner of Christes presence Wherfore they deceyue the Quenes maiestie and you of the nobilitie of this realme in making you to beleue that to be a sacrament which is none and cause you to commit manifest idolatrie inworshippyng that for God which ys no God And in testimony of thys to be true besydes manifest profe which I am hable to make to the Quenes maiestie and to al you of her nobilitie I wil yelde my lyfe The which to do yf yt were not vpō a sure grounde yt were to my vtter dāpnacion Note And where they take on them the name of the catholike churche wherby they blynde many folkes eyes they ar nothyng so callyng you frō the true religion which was reueled taught in kyng Edwardes tyme vnto vayne supersticiō And this I wil saye for the trial hereof that yf they can proue them selues to be the catholyke churche as they shal neuer be hable to do I wil neuer be against their doynges but reuoke al that I haue sayd And I shal desyre you my lordes to be meane for me to the Quenes maiestie that I maye be brought to the iust trial herof Yea I wil not refuse to stande agaynst tenne of the best of them in this realme And yf they be hable to proue that otherwyse then I haue sayd eyther by writyng or by reasonyng with good lawful authoritie I wil here promise to recant what so euer I haue sayd and to consent to them in al pointes And in the declaration of these thinges more at large which nowe I wryte in somme the bishop of London eftsones would haue interrupt me but the lordes procured me lybertie to make out my tale to the great grefe of my lorde bishop of London as it appeared by his dumpes he was in London It hath ben tolde me before that you loue to make a long tale Ryche All heretikes do boast of the spirite of God And euery one would haue a churche by him self as Iohn of Kent and the Anabaptistes I had my selfe Iohn of Kent a seuen nyght in my house after the wrytte was out for her to be burnt where my lorde of Cantorburye and bishop Rydley resorted almost daylye vnto her but she was so hyghe in the spirite that they could do nothyng with hir for al their lernyng But she went wilfullye vnto the fier was burnt so do you nowe Phil. As for Iohn of Kent she was a vayne woman I knewe her wel and an heretike in dede wel worthy to be burnt because she stode against one of the manifest artikles of our fayth contrarye to the scripture And suche vayne spirites be sone knowen from the true spirite of God and his churche for that the same abydeth within the lymittes of Goddes worde and wyll not go out of the same neither stubburnly mayntayne any thing contrarye to the worde as I haue Goddes worde throughly on my syde to shewe for that I stande in London I praye you howe wil you ioyne me these two scriptures together Pater maior me est Et pater ego vnum sumus I must interprete the same bycause my lordes here vnderstande no latyne that is to saye the father is greater thē I and I and the father are one But I crie you mercie my lordes I haue mispoken in sayng you vnderstande no latyne for the most parte of you vnderstande latyne as wel as I. But I spake in cōsideraciō of my lorde Shandois and maister Brydges hys brother whom I take to be no great latine men Now shew you your connyng and ioyne these twayne scriptures by the worde yf you can Phil. Yes that I can ryght well For we must vnderstand that in Christ there be two natures the diuinitie and humanitie And in respecte of his humanitie it is spoken of Christ the father is greater then I. But in respect of his deitie he sayd agayne the father and I be one London But what scripture haue you
other vpon the wordes of a statute must not the wordes of the statute iudge and determine the controuersye Ryche No mary the iudges of the lawe maye determine the meaning therof London He hath brought as good example against him self as caÌ„ be And here the bishop thought he had good haÌ„d fast against me and therfore enlarged it with many wordes to the iudgemeÌ„t of the churche The lordes He hath ouerthrowen him selfe by his owne argument Phil. My lordes it semeth to your honores that you haue great aduauntage of me by the example I brought in to expresse my cause but yf it be pondered throughly it maketh holly with me and nothing against me as my lorde of London hath preteÌ„ded For I wil aske of my lorde Ryche here whom I knowe to haue good knowledge in the lawes and statutes of this realme Albeit a iudge may decerne the meaning of a statute agreable to the wordes whether the same may iudge a meaning coÌ„trary to the expresse wordes or no Ryce He can not so do phil Euen so saye I that no man ought to iudge the worde of God to haue a meanyng contrarye to the expresse wordes therof as this false churche of Rome dothe in many thinges And with this the lordes semed to be satisfyed made no further replicacion herin Ryche I maruel theÌ„ why you do deny the expresse wordes of Christ in the sacrament sayeng this is my body yet you wil not sticke to saye it is not his body Is not God omnipotent And is not he hable aswel by his omnipoteÌ„cy to make it his body as he was to make man fleshe of a pece of claye did not he saye this is my body which shal be betrayed for you and was not his verye body betrayed for vs therfore it must nedes be his bodye London My lorde Ryche you haue said wonderful wel and lernedly But you myght haue begon with him before also in the sixt of IohnÌ„ where Christ promised to gyue his body in the sacrament of the altare sayeng panis quem â—go dabo caro mea est The breade which I wil gyue is my fleshe Howe can you answere to that Phil. If it please you to gyue me leaue to answere fyrst my lorde Ryche I wil also answere the obiection Ryche Answere my lorde of London first and after come to me phil My lorde of London may be sone answered that the sayeng of S. IohnÌ„ is that the humanitie of Christ which he toke on him for the redemption of man is the bread of lyfe wherby our bodyes and soules be susteyned to eternal lyfe of the which the sacramentall bread is a lyuely representacion and an effectuall cohabitatioÌ„ to al suche as beleue on his passion and as Christ sayeth in the same syxte of IohnÌ„ I am the bread that came from heauen but yet he is not material neither natural breade Lykewyse the bread is his fleshe not natural or substanciall but by signification and by grace in a sacrament And nowe to my lorde Ryches argument I do not deny the expresse wordes of Christ in the sacrament this is my bodye But I denye that they are naturally and corporally to be taken but sacramentally and spiritually according to the expresse declaracion of Christ sayeng that the wordes of the sacrament which the Capernaites toke carnally as the Papistes nowe do ought to be taken spiritually and not carnally as they falsely ymagine not wayeng what interpretacion Christ hathe made in this behalfe Neither folowe the institution of Christ nether the vse of the Apostles and of the primatiue churche who neuer taught neither declared no such carnal maner of preseÌ„ce as is nowe exacted of vs violently with out any grounde of scripture or antiquitie who vsed to put out of the church al suche as dyd not receaue the sacrament with the rest also to burne that which was left after the receyuyng as by the Canon of the Apostles and by the decre of the counsel of Antioche London No that is not so they were only Cathecumeni which went out of the churche at the celebration of the coÌ„munion and none other Phil. It was not only of suche as were Nouices in fayth but al others that did not receyue London What saye you to the omnipotency of God is not he hable to performe that which he spake as my lord Ryche hath very wel sayd I tel thee that God by his omnipotency maye make hym selfe to be this carpet yf he will Phil. As concerning the omnipotency of God I saye that God is hable to do as the prophet Dauid fayeth what so euer he willeth But he willeth nothing that is not agreable to his worde as that is blasphemy which my lorde of LoÌ„don hath spoken that God may become a carpet For as I haue learned of auncient wryters Non potest Deus facere quae suÌ„t naturae suae contraria That is God can not do that which is contrary to his nature as it is contrary to the nature of God to be a carpet A carpet is a creature God is the creator and the creator can not be the creature wherfore onles you can declare by the worde that Christ is otherwyse present with vs then spiritually and sacramentally by grace as he hath taught vs you pretende the omnipotency of God in vayne London Why will you not saye that Christ is really present in the sacrament or do you denye it Phil. I denye not that Christ is really in the sacrament to the receauer therof according to Christes institution London What meane you by really present Phil. I meane by really present present in dede London Is God really present euerywhere phil He is so London Howe proue you that phil The prophet Esay sayeth that God filleth all places and where so euer be two or thre gathered together in Christes name there is he in the middest of them London What his humanitie Phil. No my Lorde I meane the Deitie according to that you demaunded Ryche My lorde of LondoÌ„ I pray you let maister doctor Chedsey reason with him and let vs see how he can answer him for I tel thee he is a learned man in dede one that I do credit before a great many of you whose doctrine the Quenes maiestie and the hole realme dothe wel alowe therfore heare him London My lordes I praye you wil it please you to drinke You haue talked a great whyle and muche talke is thrustye I wyl leaue maister doctor and him reasoning together a whyle with your leaue wyl come to you by and by agayne They went as I suppose to make rowme for more drinke after the lordes had dronke Riche My lorde Ryche sayd to the lordes I praye you let the poore man drinke for he is thristy And with that he called for a cup of drynke and gaue it me and I dranke before them all God requite it him for I was athirst in dede Afterwardes doctor Chadsey began in this wyse
Ye as that I am London Your godfathers and godmothers were of an other fayth then you be nowe Phil. I was not baptised neither into my godfathers faith nor my godmothers but into the fayth into the churche of Christ London Howe knowe you that Phil. By the worde of God which is the touche stone of faythe and the lymites of the churche London Howe long hath your churche stande I praye you Phil. Euen from the beginning froÌ„ Christ from his Apostles from theyr immediate successours Chanc. He wil proue his churche to be before Christ phil Yf I dyd so I go not amisse For ther was a church before the coÌ„ming of Christ which maketh one catholike churche Chance It is so in dede phil I wil desyre no better rule theÌ„ that which is ofteÌ„ tymes brought in of your syde to proue both my fayth and church catholike that is antiquitie vniuersalitie and vnitie Lond. Do you not se what a bragging folyshe felowe this is He would seme to be very wel sene in the doctors he is but a fole By what D. art thou able to ê“ue thy church name hiÌ„ thou shalt haue him phil My lorde let me haue al your auncient writers with penne ynke paper I wil proue both my fayth my churche out of euery one of them Lon. No that thou shalt not haue â–ª you shal see howe he lyeth S. CipriaÌ„ sayeth Ye lye my lorde ther must be one high priest to the which the residue must obeye And they wil allowe no head neither vicar general phil S. Ciprian sayeth not that ther should be a vicar general ouer al. For in his boke De simplicitate praelatorum I am sure he sayeth the coÌ„trarie Vnus episcopatus est cuius pars in solidum a singulis tenetur Ther is but one bishoprike which is holly possessed of euery bishop in part London Fet hyther the boke thou shalt se the manyfest place against the. S. Chedsey brought the boke turned to the place in an Epistle written vnto Cornelius then B. of Rome recited these worldes in suÌ„me that it went not well with the church where the hyghe priest was not obeyed And so would haue coÌ„cluded for the confirmacion of the bishops sayeng Phil. M. doct you misconstrue the place of S. CipriaÌ„ for he meaneth not ther by the hygh priest the B. of Rome but euery patriark in his precinct of whom ther were foure apointed in his tyme. And in wrytyng vnto Cornelius he meaneth by the hyghe priest hym selfe which was then chief B. of Affrica whose auctoritie the heretikes began to despice Wherof he complayneth to Cornelius sayeth the churche can not be well ordered where the chief minister by order after the iudgemeÌ„t of the scriptures after the agremeÌ„t of the people and the coÌ„sent of his felow bishops he is not obeyed London Hath not the bishop of Rome alwayes ben supreme head of the churche and Christes vicar in earth euen from Peter Phil. No that he was not For by the word of God he hath no more auctoritie then the bishop of London hath Lon. Was not Peter head of the church and hath not the bishop of Rome which is his successour the same auctoritie Phil. I graunt that the bishop of Rome as he is the successor of Peter hath the same autoritie as Peter had But Peter had no more auctoritie then euery one of the apostles hadde Chaunce Yes that S. Peter had for Christ said specially vnto him Tibi dabo claues regni Coelorum I will gyue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the which he spake to none other of his disciples syngularly but to him phil S. Austyne answereth otherwyse to the obiection sayeth that yf in Peter there had not bene the figure of the churche the Lord had not sayd vnto him to the I will geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen The which if Peter receyued them not the churche hath them not Yf the churche hath them theÌ„ Peter hath them not London What yf I can proue and shewe you out of the ciuill lawe that all Christendome ought to folowe the holy catholike churche of Rome as there is a speciall tytle therof De catholica fide Sancta Romana ecclesia phil That is nothing material seing the thinges of God be not subiecte to maÌ„s lawes And diuine maters must be ordered by the word of God not of man M. d ee What will you saye yf I can proue that Christ buylded his church vpon Peter and that out of S. Ciprian will you then beleue that the bishop of Rome ought to be supreme head of the churche Phil. I knowe what S. Ciprian writeth in that behalfe But he meaneth nothiÌ„g so as you take it M. d ee S. Ciprian hath these wordes quod super Petrum fundata suit ecclesia tanquam super originem vnitatis That vpon Peter was builded the churche as vpon the fyrst begynning of vnitie Phil. Be declareth that in an example the vnitie must be in the church he grouÌ„ded on Peter his churche alone not vpon men The which he doth more manifestly declare in the booke De simplicitate praelatorum sayeng in persona vnius Christus dedit Dominus omnibus claues vt omnium vtatateÌ„ denotaret In the person of one maÌ„ God gaue the keyes to al that he in significacioÌ„ therby declareth the vnitie of all men M. d ee Howe wil you vnderstand S. Ciprian So that were good in dede Phil. I thinke you can not vnderstande S. Ciprian better then he dothe declare him selfe London I will desire you master chauÌ„celer to take some paynes which master doctor Chadsey master Dee about his examinacion For I must god to the parliament house And I will desire you to tary diner with me phil Then maister Dee toke agayne his former auctoritie in hande for want of an other And would haue made a farther circumstaunce dysgressing from his purpose To whom I sayd he knewe not wherabout he went and here withall he laughed And I sayd his diuinitie was nothing but scoffing M. d ee Yea then I haue done with you And so went awaye phil maister Dee you are to yong in dyuynytie to reach me in the maters of my faythe though you be learned in other thinges more then I yet in diuinitie I haue ben longer pracrysed then you for any thing I can heare of you therfore be not to hastie to iudge that you do not perfectly knowe Chaun Peter and his successours froÌ„ the beginning haue ben allowed for the supreme head of the churche that by the scriptures For that cause Christ said vnto him in S. Iohn thryse feade my shepe pasce oues meas Phil. That is none otherwise to be takeÌ„ theÌ„ Ite predicate goo ye preache which was spoken to al the Apostels as wel as vnto Peter And the Christ said thrise pasce oues meas feade my shepe it signifieth nothing
vpper hande And in the Apocalyps you may se it was prophesied that the true church should be dryuen into corners and into wyldernes and suffer great persecution Morgan A are you seen in the Apocalyps ther is many strange thinges phil If I tell you the trueth which you are not hable to refel beleue it and daly not out so earnest maters Me thinke you are liker a scoffer in a play Morgan ryghtly painted out than a reasonable doctor to instruct a man you are bare arced and daunse naked in a net and yet you se not your owne nakednes Morgan What I pray you be not so quicke with me Let vs talke a lytle more coldly together phil I will talke with you as myldly as you can desyre if you wil speake learnedly and charytably But yf you goo about with tauntes to delude the truthe I will not hyde it from you Morgan Why will you not submit your iudgement to the learned men of this realme phil Bycause I see they can bring no good ground wher vpon I may with a good conscience settle my faythe more suerly then on that which I am now grounded by Goddes manifest word Morgan No do that is maruel that so many learned men should be deceaued phil It is no maruel by S. Paule for he sayth that not many wyse neither many learned after the world be called to the knowlage of the gospel Morgan Haue you thē alone the spirit of God and not we phil I say not that I alone haue the spirit of God but as many as abide in the true faith of Christ haue the spirit of God aswell as I. Morgan Howe know you that you haue the spirit of God Phil. By the fayth of Christ which is in me Morgan A by faith do you so I wene it be the spirit of the butterye which your felowes haue had that haue ben burned before you who were dronke the night before they went to theyr death I wene went dronken vnto it Phil. It appeareth by your communicacion that you are better acquainted with the spirit of the buttrye then with the spirite of God wherfore I must nowe tell the thou paynted wall and hypocryte in the name of the lyuing Lord whose truth I haue told the that God shal rayne fyer and brymstone vpon suche scorners of his word and blasphemers of his people as thou art Morgan What you rage now Phil. Thy folishe blasphemies haue compelled the spirite of God which is in me to speake that which I haue said vnto the thou enemy of all righteousnes Morgan Why do you iudge me so phil By thyne owne wicked wordes I iudge of the thou blind and blasphemous doctor for as it is written by thy wordes thou shalt be iustified and by thy wordes thou shalt be condempned I haue spoken on Goddes behalfe now haue I done with the. Morgan Why then I tell the Philpot that thou arte an heretyke and shalt be burnt for thy heresy afterwards goo to hell fyer phil I tell the thou hypocryte that I passe not this for thy fyer and fagots nether I thanke God my lord stand in feare of the same my faythe in christ shall ouercom them But the hell fyer which thou thretnest to me is thy porcyon and is prepared for thee oneles thou spedely repent and for such hypocrites as thou art Morgan What you speake vpō wyne thou hast typled well to day by lykelyhode phil So fayd the cursed generation to the Apostles being replenished with the holy gost and speaking the wonderous workes of God they sayd they were dronke whē they had nothing els to say as thou doest nowe Morgan Why I am hable to answere the ywis I trowe phil So it semeth with blasphemies lyes Morgan Nay euen with learning say what thou canst philpot That appeared well at my disputacion in the conuocation house where thou tokest vpon thee to answere those few argumentes I was permitted to make and yet wast not hable to answere one but in thyne answeres dyddest fomble and wonder that the hole house was ashamed of thee And thy fynall conclusion of all thyne answers was that thou couldest answere me yf I were in the scoles at Oxforde Morgan What dyd I so thou belyest me Phil. I do not belye the the boke of the report of the disputation beareth record therto and all that were present can tel yf they list thou saydest so And I tel thee playne thou arte not hable to answer the spirite of truthe which speaketh in me for the defence of Christes true religion I am hable by the myght ther of to dryue thee rounde about this galarie before me And yf it would please the Quenes maiestie and her counsell to heare thee me I would make thee for shame shrynke behynde the dore Morgan Yea would you so lo phil Thou hast the spirite of illusion sophisirie which is not hable to counteruayle the spirite of truthe Thou arte but an Asse in the true vnderstanding of thinges pertaynyng vnto God I cal the asse not in respecte of malice but in that thou kickest agaynst the truthe art voyde of all godly vnderstandyng not hable to answere to that thou bragest in Morgan Why haue I not answered thee in al thinges thou hast sayd vnto me I take them to recorde Phil. Aske of my felow whether I be a these Cosins Hearke he maketh vs al theues phil You knowe the phrase of that Prouerbe that like wil holde with lyke And I am sure you wil not iudge with me against him speake I neuer so true And in this sense I speake it the strongest answer that he hath made agaynst me is that you wil burne me Morgan Why we do not burne you it is the temporal mē that burne you and not we phil Thus you would as Pylate dyd washe your hādes of al your wicked doynges But I praye you inuocate seculare brachium Cal vpon the secular power to be executioners of your vnryghteous iudgementes And haue you not a rytle in your lawe De haeruicis comburendis for to burne heretikes Harpes I haue heard you both a good while reason together and I neuer heard so stoute an heretike as you are maister Philpot. Cosins Neither I in al my lyfe Phil. You are not hable to proue me an heretike by one iot of Goddes worde Harpes You haue the spirite of arrogācye I wil reason with you no more And so he was departing and M. Cosins also And with that the bishop and Christoforson came in agayne sayd London M. D. howe dothe this man and your agree Morg. My lorde I do aske him where his churche was fyfty yeares ago London Are you not halfe agreed as one man sayd ones to tway partes of whom the one was equally disagreyng from the other Crhisto My lorde it is but foly to reason with him any further your lordeship shal but lose tyme for he is incurable London Wel then let his keper haue hym