you what I have seene with mine eyes and heard with mine eares this day But the thing which did most astonish the beholders was the desperate behaviour of the Popish Novice the procurer of this meeting who did in the time of this conference most lively expresse the slavish nature of a seduced Romane Catholike to whom God hath sent strong delusion to cleave to lies and to reject the truth For he did most manifestly shew as the standers by well observed that he came with a full purpose and resolution and an heart and forehead hardned to scoffe deride and gainesay whatsoever was said against the minde of his ghostly father Fisher the Iesuit whether good or bad and to extoll and admire with most intemperate noise and clamour whatsoever Fisher did averre without regard of right or wrong truth or falshood In so much that one time when Master Walker had spoken something which seemed to give content to the hearers and they openly applauded and the Novice as his manner was scoffing at the speech said to his younger brother and others neere unto him that he never heard a more absurd and foolish reason and that any childe might answer it Master Walker over-hearing urged him to tell wherein the absurditie and foolishnesse of his reason did consist and what it was But he was not able to repeat one word so that all the hearers laughed and condemned him for an headstrong foole in speaking evill of that which he neither knew nor cared to understand But all this could not bridle his tongue nor make his impudent face ashamed For a little after when Master Fisher the Iesuit was speaking something which Master Walker seemed to sleight and to smile at the popish Novice spake out in a passion more loud than ordinary to his brothers and others about him Loe there is an argument to the purpose which I warrant you can never be answered by the best of your Ministers let him answer it if he can Which Master Walker noting turned once more to the Novice and desired him to repeat that strong argument or if he could not doe that to tell the meaning or the matter of it but hee was not able to repeat a word nor to tell what was the matter in hand which made the beholders astonished at his desperate impudencie and wilfull blindnesse in so much that some sharply rebuked him to his face others blamed Fisher for nuzling him up and suffering him to goe on in such notorious impudencie and wilfull blindnesse and divers did not sticke to say that they never saw nor heard of such a dangerous example and that undoubtedly they perceived this Novice to be so devillishly addicted and devoted to his Master Fisher that if Fisher would blaspheme the name of Iesus Christ this Novice would iustifie his blasphemie and maintaine it unto death And thus the conference ended But at the breaking up the Iesuit gave in writing to be answered at leysure the confused speech before mentioned And Master Walker wrote downe an argument which he gave to him to be considered and directly answered in writing upon mature deliberation The summe of the Argument was this That Church which hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon mentioned Revel 17. is undoubtedly that great whore and the Church of Antichrist The present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope hath those properties ergo it is the great whore The assumption confirmed These following are the chiefe properties of the great whore First shee must bee such a Church as being once most famous and renowned over all the faithfull Spouse of Christ hath by degrees fallen away into spirituall whordome that is Idolatrie and Image-worship for the Scriptures doe never stile by the name of whore any Citie or Church but such as thus fall away Secondly shee must still hold her visible succession of Bishops in the same place and Sea and professe her selfe the chiefe spouse of Christ while she commits Idolatrie in the Churches of Christ and mingles it with his outward and verball worship and while hee doth by persecution sacrifice to her God Molech such children as she by meanes of the Scriptures and some parts of his worship which shee still after a sort retaineth hath begotten and borne to Christ. Thirdly shee must bee the mother of whoredomes by assuming to her selfe the power to canonize for Saints whom she pleaseth and to authorize the worship of them and their Images and by obtruding upon the Churches of other nations Cities and Countries her formes of idolatrous worship Now there is no Church or Citie in the world which hath or can have these properties but onely the present Church and Sea of Rome 1. For she was for faith renowned in all the world as Saint Paul Rom. 1. and many of the ancient Fathers in their writings doe shew 2. And she now continuing her visible succession of Bishops ever since the Apostles in the same place and Sea is become a worshipper of Images which is Idolatrie as all the world may see and observe 3. And though shee doth challenge to her selfe the authoritie to canonize Saints and to authorize all Image-worship going a whoring from Christ her first love after his pretended Vicar the Pope and his superstitions and obtruding upon all nations her abominations yet she still glories in the name of the chiefe spouse of Christ and under shew and colour of zeale and love to him doth persecute and murder such godly men as being converted to Christ by those meanes of Christianitie which shee still retaineth doe reprove and rebuke her for Idolatrie superstition and other vices as Ierusalem did when shee was a great spirituall whore and adultresse Ezech. 16. Therefore the present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon and by consequence is that great Babylonish whore and the Church of Antichrist This argument being to this effect delivered in writing to the Iesuit hee departed and hath not yet returned an answer Onely hee sent within a few daies after to Master Walker by his disciple above mentioned certaine propositions which hee commonly carries about him as the chiefe weapons of his warfare and by which he doth provoke and challenge all Protestant Divines with whom hee doth meet in any place FINIS
censured and reproved by the hearers Wherefore to avoid all further urging in this point and for the escaping of more reproofe and censure he flies backe to the generall question concerning the word of God and taking a paper wrote downe his assent That the word of God comprehends in it 1. The Scriptures 2. Whatsoever by good consequence is gathered from the holy Scriptures And withall he wrote downe this question viz. who must be the Iudge when the Scriptures are doubtfull and when the question is of the goodnesse of the consequence And withall he professed that for his part he held the Church to be the Iudge and that when the Church hath iudged no private man must oppose Mr. Walker Mr. Walker on the other side professed that for the goodnesse of the consequence Logicians must judge by reason and the rules of Logicke And for the sense and meaning of the doubtfull places the Scripture is the best expositor of it selfe and the plaine places of it doe give light to the places which are obscure and doe best expound them And therefore every private person and the whole Church it selfe in matters doubtfull must flie to the Scriptures themselves as the last Iudge of controversies in matters of faith and salvation And here he asked Master Fisher if he durst in this controversie stand to the judgement of the ancient Fathers such as S. Augustine Chrysostome and others of that ranke Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit answered that he knew the Fathers were on his side and did altogether flie to the iudgement of the Church in matters of faith when any controversie did arise Mr. Walker That said Master Walker is most untrue the cōtrary shall be shewed presently out of their owne writings set forth and printed by Papists then calling for two volumes the one of S. Chrysostome upon Matthew the other S. Austens third Tome both printed and set forth by Papists as the inscription did shew and Fisher could not denie First he turnes to the Homilie of Chrysostome upon these words of the Gospel Math. 24. When you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place then let him that is in Iudea flie to the mountaines and shewes the Authors exposition which was to this effect That when Antichrist rules and beares sway in the holy place the Church then all professors of Christian religion who are in the true Iudaea that is Christianitie must flie only to the Scriptures for they are the mountaines upon which the Church is founded according to that saying of David Her foundations are upon the holy mountains Psal. 87. 1. And in those daies when Antichrist sits and succeeds in the Sea of holy Bishops and over-rules all workes miracles and makes great shew of godlinesse in hypocrisie then the Church cannot be knowne by succession of Pastors nor by the miracles and holy life of teachers as in former ages but only by the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. The answer which the Iesuit gave to this testimonie was that this could not be proved to be the worke of Chrysostome Mr. Walker More shame said Master Walker it is to your Doctors and Printers who cite places out of this booke under the name of Chrysostome and doe print and set it forth in his name but suppose it be not the worke of Chrysostome yet you cannot denie it to be the worke of an ancient writer of great antiquitie and therefore it makes much against you being approved in the Church so many ages Neither shall you so escape For loe here in the third booke of S. Augustine De doctrinâ Christianâ which was never questioned but is generally received and acknowledged by all it is most plainly taught by the learned Father That the best way of expounding the Scriptures is in words which have many significations to observe the scope and circumstances of the place and thereby to expound them and to expound obscure places by comparing them with other plaine places of the Scriptures which speake of the same matter and subject Then hee shewed the words to Fisher and read them in Latine to him who could not deny them but heard them read with much impatiencie as his gestures shewed but when he began to expound them in English to the people there present the Iesuit could not containe himselfe but said Away this is nothing to the purpose we will examine these things some other time And when words would not prevaile hee reacheth with his hands to the booke and did strive to shut it that the words might not bee read notwithstanding Master Walker held it by strong hand and read the words which when the people present did heare and see they confessed that Fisher was openly convinced some of them told him that his owne conscience did witnesse against him and all condemned his impudencie joined with most intolerable and desperate obstinacie The Iesuit thus condemned on all sides and not able to outface the matter any longer did make shew as if he stood vpon coales and would gladly be gone and his Disciple who brought him thither being ready to helpe him at a dead lift when hee saw him so confounded calls vpon him to remember the place which they were to goe unto whereupon they made haste to depart but by much importunitie were staied and Master Walker still urging him to propound and prosecute one argument upon any question of controversie before they parted he answered that now there was no time but promised to dispute at some other time At length out of an earnest desire to draw one argument from the Iesuit he offered to him this advantage That if for the iustifying of any point or article of the Romish religion hee would make a perfect syllogisme in moode and figure and presently upon the deniall of any of the premises second it with a prosyllogisme not failing in forme to prove and conclude the proposition denied the point or article so farre proved should for this one time bee yeelded to him and he should haue libertie to make his best advantage of it for the justifying of any other point of Poperie which hee would presently dispute upon But all this could not prevaile to wring one syllogisme from him which made the hearers thinke that hee had no art nor skill to make an argument And that they did not thinke amisse nor erre in their opinion appeared by that which followed for although hee durst not undertake during the time of the conference to make one syllogisme or to propound an argument in forme yet at the breaking up when hee was ready to depart he tooke his paper and wrote downe and gave to Master Walker desiring him to answer at leasure this argument which followeth and which is yet to be shewed under his owne hand though perhaps to men of judgement it may seeme incredible that any Priest or Iesuit of his name and note should be so absurd as to propound for a syllogisme such a confused speech without forme
are and have beene censured for Apocrypha and so you are in this more private in your opinion than we Secondly we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithfull from the beginning even God himselfe who is prima veritas the first truth and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament and to all Christians in the time of the Gospell But you build upon a new rocke even the Pope of Rome whom yee call the universall Bishop sitting in Peters chaire a foundation which all the faithfull forefathers before the comming of Christ were ignorant of and never heard or dreamed Neither did the first Christians in the primitive Church for divers hundred of yeeres after Christ acknowledge any such name or title but even Gregorie the Great a Bishop of Rome who lived 560. yeeres after Christ condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his forerunner as by his epistles is manifest Thirdly though divers sects of Anabaptists Familists and Enthusiasts men of fanaticall spirits have growne up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches who follow their owne private fancies imaginations and divers inspirations of Satan which have no warrant from the Scriptures but are contrary to the written word yet they are not of us we renounce their society and expell them out of our Churches and say of them as the Apostle did 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out from us but they were not of us And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures which Luther Calvin and other learned men have lately found out and doe finde out daily which were not knowne of old nor commonly received we embrace them not for novelty nor because they are singular nor for the authoritie of the expositors themselves but because we finde them to be agreeable to the originall text and to other plaine places of the same Scriptures and to containe the old and common doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and Prophets which hath beene beleeved and embraced in all ages of all true Christians But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship Canonization of Saints Purgatorie Pardons Indulgences Transubstantiation Massing sacrificing for the dead and such like they are builded vpon private visions apparitions dreames imaginations and fancies of Friers and upon singular inspirations of Monks and other doating persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanaticall spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts as plaine reason and experience doe shew Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things made great shew of a desire to breake off and to be gone onely he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit by which particular Christians are enabled to know and beleeve the Scriptures and to be fully perswaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them And as for you saith he to Master Walker it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to discerne the word of God and doth more assure you of the truth thereof than the publike testimonie of the Church But pardon us if we hold it doubtfull seeing we have no more but your owne word for it Mr. Walker Yea and I will have your word professing the same of your selfe also or else I will make you appeare to all here present to be void of all true Christianitie First you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to professe and to proclaime the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word and how I come to know it by the worke of his spirit Secondly I will urge you upon your conscience to answer me whether you have experience and feeling of the same grace in you That which I can with a good conscience testifie of my selfe I hold to be no singular gift but a grace common to all true Christians and it is this First I confesse that I was borne of Christian parents and my father and mother who tenderly loved me and were also of me dearely beloved did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancie and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God I being not able to judge of it my selfe beleeved it so to be upon their word and authoritie for the reverent respect and esteeme which I had of them Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church and to heare that word read and expounded by learned Preachers and told me that I ought to beleeve what I heard out of it preached in the Church and so I did for I beleeved the Preachers publishing that word in so much that partly by their exhortations and partly out of a care which I had of my soules health and in a desire of Gods favour and blessings which were thereunto promised I did even from my youth give my minde to reade and learne the Scriptures Howsoever I must confesse that at the first and in my childish yeeres I did finde but little savour sweetnesse in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures such as Davids Psalmes Salomons Proverbs the bookes of the Prophets the Epistles of the Apostles and such like yea though I beleeved that they were Gods word yet by reason of my naturall corruption I did take more pleasure and delight in Poeticall fables and feigned histories which did feed my corruption and were a kinde of fuell to my sinfull lusts and vanities Neverthelesse whether it was mine owne conscience urging me or the spirit of God which moved me I cannot certainly tell but sure I am that still I did upon the testimonie and authoritie of my Parents and Teachers reverence the Scriptures as Gods word and force my selfe to reade them contrary to my rebellious nature and at length when I came to more ripe yeeres I found that the word which was most opposite and distastfull to my sinfuâ—l corruption did worke upon me most strongly and effectually which is an infallible token of Gods hand in it and a sure signe of the divine power and supernaturall excellencie thereof I felt the promises of the Gospell and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish begin by Gods grace to be most sweet and comfortable in all crosses and afflictions and to be most profitable by strengthning me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations by mortifying my fleshly corruptions and by reforming my life so that I began to rejoyce in the Scriptures more than in any earthly treasures and did devote my selfe to the studie of them and now partly upon the