â—se ioyning her present Authoriâ— to that of the precedent ages â—â—ose minde she doth enquire in â—â—e manner that so by consent of 〈◊〉 whole still errours be condemâ—d Neither is it necessarie to finde â—at which she doth at anie time â—opose vniuersallie professed by all â—fore in plaine termes and expliciâ— or to finde it in all bookes of thoâ— times the Church informer ages â—d not so wee take the same course â—at she then did Secondlie you must â—tend vnto the words cunctas aboleâ—e hath abolished all No one Counâ—ll no one part as that which liued 〈◊〉 the second age or that which liâ—ed in the third or fourth hath aboâ—hed and destroyed them all but â—â—e whole hath done it Thirdlie that â—la is not * If sola be taken as you would haue it what will become of your triall by scripture onlie captiouslie to be stood vpon least you wrong the same Aâ—thor who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whose testimonâ— k so 3. doc 3. tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20 c. he pleades so earnestlie both iâ— the same place and in his seconâ— booke Doct. Fid. in many chapterâ— prouing it it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede yâ—â— the Fathers of whose consent 〈◊〉 speakes in the place by you heeâ— vrged be not the symbolicaâ—â— Church properlie but onlie a parâ— of it And in like manner wheâ— speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit d. authoritie thaâ— she can certifie who are authors oâ— the bookes of scripture that soâ— doth not exclude another authoritie that is within for example thâ— vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to c. 26. and m Apudomnes Catholicos valet ligat vna sententia concors patruÌ„ maximè autem temporis longaeuâ— patrum successione sirmata ita vt locuÌ„ fidei habeat De quacre â—enda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas omnes tractatus definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patruÌ„ sententia ab ipsis ApostoloruÌ„ sedibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum id est ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo noua vetera li. 2. c. 25. els where but it excludes authoritie Without Fourthlie he doth noâ— exclude generall Councells by thâ— Christian world approued and hâ— â—t should in Sainct Augustines â—es haue refused to subscribe to â—h authoritie or disputed against â—t which the vniuersall Church â—hat age beleeued and tought he â—t would not haue beleeued what â—s by so great authoritie proposed â—d bene thought madde rather then â—rthie the name of man Fiftlie â—her doth he exclude from infalâ—litie and power to abolish heâ—es the Gospels and other parts scripture and yet these be not â—t instrument or engine which he â—akes of so that you cannot build 〈◊〉 argument on those words to â—e infallibilitie awaie from all but 〈◊〉 Fathers Sixtlie notwithstanâ—g that Councells and the present â—urch are infallible it may be said â—the consent of the Fathers or â—he whole symbolicall Church â—h abolish all heresie because faith â—re readilie giues assent vnto that â—ch is so vniuersallie proposed â—derstandings not so well dispoâ— before doe quicklie stoope in 〈◊〉 case to giue reuerence to the â—h and such as doe not are condemned of all and so confoundâ— that they dare no more openlie pâ—fesse their errour whence it coâ— to passe that none making esteâ— either of the doctrine or of thâ— who stubbornlie doe persist in it degrees it is abolished And this one of those glorious prerogatiâ— which Waldensis so much coÌ„meâ— in the Church Besides the foresâ— readines in the vnderstanding whâ— it is by grace well disposed or 〈◊〉 lesse repugnance to render obedieâ— when it cannot with any shew pâ—tend reason for the refusall there dâ— appeare too more fullie in tâ— proponent the power of vniâ— which is in it selfe a dispositioâ— more plentifull participation of 〈◊〉 spirit and brings with it greaâ— force to conquer opposition Vndâ—standings well disposed yeild pâ—sentlie when the Councell speakâ— when the present Church hath â—ceaued and vniuersallie approâ— the Councell there is ex parte sâ—cti more adhesion and yet mâ— when the consent of all former aâ— is added and vnited and more 〈◊〉 there was in those that had Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti as the â—choolemen speake euidentiam in â—ttestante S. Marke knew the Gosâ—ell which he wrote to be true yet â—hat the faithfull more easilie might â—eleeue it he had it n Vide to 1. doct 3. to 3. li. 2. c. 20. S. Hieron Catol script in Marco approued â—s S. Hierom doth relate by S. Peâ—er S. Paul knew the truth in the â—uestion moued at Antioch about â—ircumcision yet to make the creâ—ibilitie more appeare and more conâ—incing he went with it to the CouÌ„â—ell at Hierusalem where it was o Act. 15. â—efined And the Pastors there knewe too what was the truth yet â—or the greater weight of Authoriâ—ie they added testimonies of Scriâ—ture The scripture many times â—rings testimonies of scripture for confirmation as this Author showeth excellentlie to 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in conâ—irmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets When parts â—re vnited Bishops in Councell particular Churches in the vniuersall whole ages in the Symbolicall â—ater with most Auncient all vnder â—one eternall Word becomming one speaker and vttering in the language of all Nations as it were with one mouth in one spirit one and thâ— same thing no man that perceaueâ— it morallie can dissent This proponent hath a commaunding poweâ— ouer a wise mans vnderstanding anâ— it is a great engine to confound errour in which great engine he thaâ— should denie there were many paâ—ticular engines able to confounâ— Heresie wronges diuers particulaâ— in the companie vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem non qâ—dem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties errâ— percepimus c. Baro p. 366. ex wald to 1. li. 2. c. 19. 4. FOurthlie to the same purposeâ— of remouing infallibilitie froâ— the present Church and Councellâ— he is cited out of another place speaking thus The vniuersall Churâ—â— hath faith which cannot faile not indeed assembled in a generall synâ— which wee haue vnderstoode to haâ— failed sometimes c. In which citaâ—n abruptlie broken of for aduanâ—ge the Authors speach is
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌ„tent to â—hink the authoritie of those â—â—o or three though the â—â—st contradict sufficient to â—ake is probable and then iudâ—ng of the reasons and motiâ—es which they bring as his â—â—fections incline him he thinks 〈◊〉 at last certaine So did the â—rians depending vpon the â—uthoritie first of their leaâ—ers and then deeming their â—otiue as that pater maior me 〈◊〉 to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiâ—â—out pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌ„ter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌ„t quod non etiam Scripturae verbâ—s adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌ„piam Haereâ—â—corum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ„ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures â—â—d gleane obscure speaches â—t of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this â—ay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ— Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ— the same sillie motiue if thâ— whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ— contrarie he will not beleeâ—â— the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâ—ors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌ„gst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest â—chollers haue euer stooped to 〈◊〉 yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌ„t as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌ„trouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ„ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
could not finde an answer for it First he saith that supposing the whole Clergie should erre against the faith some one of them might haue power to giue orders to excommunicate or binde in way oâ— iurisdiction to consecrate and administer Sacraments and so saith he praelationis ordo remaneret in Ecclesiâ— the Order of Prelacie which is of Ecclesiasticall Superiours to their inferiours would remaine in the Church as also distinction of degrees Sacraments and other rights But his opponent would aske him instantlie hoâ— the distinction of degrees of Prieâ— and Bishop of Pastor and people how the order of Prelacie and poweâ— to consecrate absolue binde anâ— preach be within if the Preists anâ— Bishops if the Prelates and such 〈◊〉 haue this power be without He answers licet fortè non actu tamen in pâ—entiâ propinquâ though perchance not â—â—ctuallie yet in a neere power and this 〈◊〉 passiue power for if the Preists and Bishops be without the actiue is not within How then is there actuallie 〈◊〉 Hierarchie and the ministration before spoken of in the Church he â—eaues it heere and goes to trie (l) Secundo loco probat iste Magister secuÌ„dam parteÌ„ antecedentis sua principalis sc quod tota multitudo Clericorum non potest difformari legi Christi quia Deus ita statuit Sacerdotes Leuiticos c. â—oÌ„ firmat per aliqua superiùs tacta quia sequitur quod posâ—et cessare in Ecclesia ordo praelationis distinctio graâ—uum caetera contra Apostolum ad Ephes 4. vbi de Christo loquitur sic Et ipse dedit quosdam Apostolos â—uosdam autem Prophetas c. ad aedificationem corporis Christi sc Ecclesiae donec occurramus Imo quod deficeâ—e posset sacerdotium Christi SacrameÌ„ta alij ritus Ecâ—lesiae c. Ad ista potest probabiliter dici c. Ad confirmaâ—oneÌ„ licet supra tactum sit de materia argumeÌ„ti tamen adâ—uc potest dici dupliciter Vno modo quod licet tota mulâ—tudo Clericorum contra fidem erraret tamen aliquis â—acerdos remaneret habens potestatem ordinandi liganâ—â— conficiendi alia sacramenta conferendi sic reâ—anent in Ecclesia ordo praelationis distinctio graduum â—cramenta alij ritus Et licet fortè non in actu tamen 〈◊〉 potentia propinqua Petrus Camerac Quaest de Reâ—â—mpta another waie which is though no Clerkes at all remained no Bishops no Priests in all the world to consecrate ordaine gouerne preach or exercise anie Hierarchicall actes yet the Church thereby should noâ— loose the power to haue them anâ— why if none remaine to consecrate preach or make a priest because though she could neuer haue them bâ— humane power yet by Gods miraculouâ— operation she might And in fine hâ— concludes that though it be teâ—rarious to affirme that euer it shalâ— come to this yet to denie that Goâ— by his omnipotencie can thus restoâ— m Alio modo dicunt aliqui quod licet omnes Clerici haereticareÌ„tur aut omnino nulli remanereÌ„t propter hoc Ecclesia potestatem habeÌ„di praedicta nequaquam amitteret Licet illa nunquam habere posset per humanam potestatem sed per miraculosam Dei operationem qui sc diuersis modis posset de aliquibus laicis Catholicis Sacerdotes Episcopos ordinare hoc suae Ecclesiae reuelare In quo casu omnes Catholici debereÌ„t taliter ordinatos à Deo sicut veros Episcopos Sacerdotes habere Et licet temerarium esset asserere talem casum de facto aliquaÌ„â— euenire tamen esset etiam temerarium huius casus â—testatem negare Quia hoc esset de futuris in hypothesi per â—iraculum tantùm possibili temerè diuinare contra arâ—culum de Dei omnipotentia impudenter impingere Ibiâ—em vide Ockam Dial. 1. p. li. 5. c. 32. 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. â—dmiratione per moue or quod isti praesumunt asserere toâ—m Clerum posse falsitate haeretica irretiri quia vix â—nquam aliquis sine motiuo assentit errori aperias vnde â—ti mouentur pro opinione praedicta Ockam p. 1. li. 5. c. â—9 a Hierarchie or that he woulâ— if there should be neede were also temerarious And no doubt he thaâ— of stones can raise vp seed to Abraham can without the ministerie 〈◊〉 men if he thinke good make infidels beleeue and ordaine theâ— Priests and Bishops the question iâ— not of his absolute power but whether by vertue of the present institution there shall be Hierarchical power in the Church euer till thâ— consummation of the world Pastâ—res Doctores in opus ministerij doâ—â— occurramus omnes The Scriptuâ— affirmes it and the same was intended by that argument for which hâ— could not finde though he weâ— â—bout to seeke an answer And theâ—efore finding himselfe in those â—raites he thought it necessarie to â—ublish his protestation that what â—e said was (n) suprà ad lit c. onelie disputatiuè â—ot assertiuè leauing vs withall to â—onsider how dangerous a thing it 〈◊〉 for schollers to reade Ockams Diaâ—gues where is vnhappilie ministred â—ccasion of errour and whence he â—ooke manie things which you finâ—e in this writing TOta multitudo Clericorum Laicorum c. vt suprà pag. 26. IT is obiected further that he defends in his resumption that â—he whole multitude of Clerks and lay-men may fall from the true faith Wherein he is much wronged hâ— defends it not as appeares in the resumption of the seuerall parts 〈◊〉 that ratio quinta § o suprà ad lit l. Secundò probâ— secundam partem antecedentis prinâ—palis sc quod tota multitudo Clerâ—â—rum non petest difformari legi Chrisâ— where comes in the argument before mentioned of Hierarchicall ordeâ— and acts and in the solution yoâ— shall finde alwaies laicks remaininâ— in the Church and the same is alâ— manifest by his three propositions before p suprà ad lit d. cited wherein he saies theâ— will be alwaies in the Church pluâ— adulti illustrati veritate fidei pluâ— iusti formati virtute spei plures eleâ— inflammati charitate Dei many adoâ—ned with faith hope and charitâ— which all will not be woemen 〈◊〉 lesse you will learne of Ockam thâ— explication which he suggests 〈◊〉 he doth many strange ones elâ—â— that is q Ad secundam rationem vt in errorem ducantur si fieri possit etiam electi potest dici quod electi coÌ„prehendunt viros mulieres ideo per hoc quod iuxta promissionem Christi tempore Antichristi remanebunt electi non potest concludi quod illi electi â—nt viri quia mulieres tunc poterunt esse electae Ockam â—al p. 1. l. 5. c. 34. electae men that is woeâ— chosen or elected and then as a ingenious proficient in his Diaâ—gues make the like explication adulti and iusti You will recurre to the print or â—ppie for an excuse which plea â—ight be
de biblioth wald Cyâ— not without cause extolles the Româ— faith when expounding those wâ— portae inferi non praeualebunt teâ— Peter quoth he it is said the gates 〈◊〉 Hell shall not preuaile against it 〈◊〉 Church according to this promiseâ— our Lord the Apostolicall Church of â—ter remaines cleane from all misleadâ— and hereticall circumuention aboue 〈◊〉 the Prelates and Bishops and aboue Primates of Churches and of Aposâ— in her chiefe Pastors in most abundâ— faith and in the Authoritie of Peâ— and whereas other Churches are compâ—d with errour she alone established â—moueablie doth raigne imposing siâ—ace and stopping the mouthes of all Heâ—tickes and wee by necessitie of saluation not by pride deceaued nor inebriaâ—d with the wine of pride doe acknowledge and professe openlie with her the â—me of truth and Apostolicall tradition Hereby appeares what Walâ—nsis thought of the Church of â—ome and by those words secunâ—m Domini professionem and those â—abilita inquassabiliter he sawe which himselfe had professed dd Non potest in fide deficere vt suprà â—efore that this immunitie and hoâ—our was to continue And by this â—nd much more which you may â—ade in that Chapter where the thing 〈◊〉 professedlie discoursed of I â—aue as manifest that you did mistake him in your first pretenâ—e which was about the Church of Rome Non quidem generali Synodo conâ—egata quam ee SuÌ„prà ad li. q. aliquoties errasse â—rcepimus velut illa Ariminensis â—ngregata sub Tauro praefecto illa â—onstantinopolitana sub Iustiniano miâ—ore tempore Sergij Papae secuudum Bedam quaedam aliae Here againe you will haue the thing disputed what he denies of a synod and what he affirmes He denies that it is the symbolicall Church this is plaine by the coherence of the discourse as I declared before He affirmes of generall Synods that some haue erred as the Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the Ariminian vnder Taurus and some others Whence it followes that the Church so assembled is not the symbolicall Church for that neuer erreth Holie diuine faith is in her essence and therefore as her essence or being cannot faile no more can her faith She hath fidem indefectibilem such a faith as by reason of our Sauiours ff Matth. 16. care cannot be deficient and without exception of any time without admitting corruption to the preiudice of her integritie she retaines the truth euer gg Suprà pag. 49. steedfast whereas a Councell or assemblie may be corrupted and want integritie as appeares in those which he speakes of Moreouer there are vnder the name of Generall Councells as appeares by him in this place and elswhere some that are sincere some that are not That of Nice was sincere and was generall that of Constantinople vnder Iustinian was not sincere yet is it here putt in the number of those which he calls generall The infallibilitie of such as are sincere and approued by the successor of S. Peter the Pope wee maintaine the infallibilitie of all that are vnder the name of generall wee doe not Neither doth Waldensis contradict vs in the former part which is of the sincere and approued He saith indeed that some which goe by the name of generall haue erred you may adde if you please that others like them hereafter may But your argument will not hold Some therefore all Some men stagger in their faith men denie God sometimes you are not wise if you vnderstand this of all men or of wise men When Wickleff obiected as you doe hh walden to 1. li. 2. c. 26. Peccauit scimus Ariminense Concilium peccauit Nicenum Thraciae the Ariminian Councell wee know did amisse and so did the Nicene of Thrace The author the same whose authoritie you are medling with answers peccauit vtique magnus exercitus Angelorum c. a great armie verilie of Angells did amisse yea and the holie number of Apostles euen in apostacie after they had receaued the faith before the comming of the holie Ghost the spirit of truth to teach them all truth and yet neither is the companie of other Angels therefore depriued of their felicitie nor the assemblie of the Apostles regularlie without doubt of the principalitie of the Church nor a generall Councell of its authoritie Thus in the 26. Chapter and in the next which is the 27. he deliuers his minde touching the matter whereof wee are disputing in these words Non dubitat Ecclesia sancta Dei toties assistere sibi Spiritum sanctum quoties congregati fuerint authoritate plenario in nomine Christi ad fidei dubium resoluendum The holie Church of God doubteth not that the holie Ghost assistes her as oft as they by full authoritie be assembled in the name of Christ to resolue a doubt of faith This was not onelie certaine with him but it is he saith a thing which the Catholike Church holds as a matter out of question non dubitat she doubts not of it And a litle after Plenarijs Concilijs Ecclesiae si tamen maneant incorrupta Spiritus sanctus adest definit de fide The holie Ghost is present vnto plenarie or generall Councells of the Church if so they continue sincere or perfect and doth define of faith And if this be so then not exteriour onlie as some would shift it of but interiour obedience is due to the decree for such obedience wee owe to the holie Ghost who is present assisting as was before said and as it is further heere expressed doth make the definition definit And consequentlie this Author had reason to saie as he doth in the same Chapter afterwards that it ii Multitudini ergo credentium est potius adhaereduÌ„ quae cum claruerit quod in Christi nomine coÌ„gregetur ab eius decreto vnanimi non nisi cum periculo declinatur c. 27. is daungerous to swarue from such decrees To this purpose in the Chapter whence you dispute he ponders those words of the first Councell assembled in Hierusalem which gaue the forme to all others and taught them how to vnderstand our Sauiours ll Ioh. 14. 16. promise It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs. mm waeldendens to 1. li. 2. c. 19. marke saith he they said not it seemed good to the holie Ghost and the Church but to the holie Ghost and to vs who heere doe represent the Church and yet not to vs without the holie Ghost but to the holie Ghost in himselfe and to the * when this authoritie comes in the fortè sic and fortè noÌ„ haue no place The Holie Ghost cannot be deceaued What he doth auouch is most certaine Remouentur dubitationes Be mindfull of this note when you come to S. Aug. holie Ghost in vs in the Church who in doubts of faith is neuer wanting to the Church Christ promising to her the holie Ghost shall teach you all truth And therefore what seemeth good to him the same
errare quia Christus orauit pro Ecclesia sua vt non deficeret c. Quia dico quod licet Concilium Generale repraesentet totam Ecclesiam vniuersalem tamen in veritate ibi non est verè Ecclesia vniuersalis sed repraesentatiuè quia vniuersalis Ecclesia constituitur ex collectione omnium fidelium Vnde omnes fideles orbis constituunt istam Ecclesiam vniuersalem cuius capâ—â—t sponsus est Christus Et infrà Et ista est Ecclesia qua no potest errare credendo sciliceâ— controuersia autem est de errore in docendo siue de infallibili assistentia ijs exhibita quibus incumbit officium docendi congregationem hanc vniuersalem Vnde possibile est quod vera fides Christi remaneret in vno solo ita quod verum est dicere quod fides non deficit in Ecclesia sicut ius vniuersitatis potest manere in vno solo alijs peccantibus Baro p. 367. ex Nicolao Panormitane 1. PANORMITAN This man is called from the Canon-lawe to saie some thing in a matter appertaining to Deuinitie and two things are wrunge out of him whilst he a Vide 36. q. 2. Almain Pot. Eccl. c. 17. mistakes a Canon of a particular Councell which wee must answer vnto One is that a Councell may erre another that it is possible the faith of Christ remaine in one onelie Concerning the first it is one thing to saie that a Councell may erre and another thing to saie that a generall Councell may he saith a Councell may and in proofe thereof makes instance in that of Meaux which was a particular one not a generall Againe it is one thing to saie that a generall Councell may another thing to saie that a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope or by the vniuersall Church receaued may erre Now that the Councell which he speakes of be it that he may be vnderstood of a generall is not a Councell by the Pope approued or by the Church receaued I argue from hence that he compares the Pope and Councell together as distinct considering the Pope without the Councell and the Councell without the Pope touching which comparison he hath two positions the one that b Panor de electione cap. significasti in his quae sunt iuris positiuï Papa est supra Concilium in things appertaining to the positiue lawe the Pope is aboue the Councell that Councell sure which includes not him or his authoritie The other which he did not himself adhere to much lesse proue vide suprà pag. 70. in concernentibus fideÌ„ c Ibidem Concilium est supra Papam in things appertaining to faith the Councell is aboue the Pope and presentlie he begins to tell how the Pope is to conforme himselfe vnles perchance his reasons be better where againe it is manifest that the Pope was not included in the Councell which he spake of So that if any thing be collected out of him to contradict vs it is by vertue of the second part Vnles perchance you thinke this a good argument the vniuersall Church cannot erre as he affirmes therefore an approued Councell may And if you should admit the forme which Logicians will not doe you must admit this the vniuersall Church is that Church which cannot erre therefore S. Paul might erre and so might the Euangelists and all the Fathers and Bishops that euer were For they were not the vniuersall Church though they were in it Neither will the second part or assertion of his serue the turne since it is onlie de possibili an assertion of a possibilitie and this too not de lege ordinaria since the comming of the holie Ghost and establishing of Pastors and doctors that wee be not wauering but de potentiâ absolutâ if the power of al mightie God remouing in our mind all suppositions and promises now made be considered absolutelie in it selfe In which case the lawier makes this Argument once the faith remained in one so he thought it did in the time of the passion as if all Christians there present besides our B. Lady and those also which our Sauiour had persuaded all the time and in all places that he preached and all which * Reuersi autem 72. c. Luc. 10. the disciples had instructed in what part of the world soeuer had at once lost their faith yet the lawier who takes it vpon trust will suppose it once according to that imagination the faith remained in one therefore it is not a thing impossible in it selfe therefore it may be though not according to the course which our sauiour hath established yet according to Gods absolute power If he hath not insinuated this absolute power vnder these termes so farre as d Cameracensis Quaest de Resumpta vt suprà lit m. Cameracensis and e Ockam Dial. p. 1. li 5. c. 31. fine 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Ockam whence he superficiallie gleaned it in the like occasion haue donne you are too beare with him as being a Lawier not accustomed to the termes of schoole-deuines For my part I cannot thinke so poorelie of him as to imagine that he did not knowe the Church is a kingdome which f Dan. 7. shall not be corrupted that the gates of Hierusalem shall be g Esa 60 62. open still and the watchmen which God hath placed on her walles shall neuer hold their peace that our Sauiour hath established a Hierarchie h Ephes 4. till all meete in vnitie of faith that euen in the hardest times of all there shall be i Matth. 24. electi chosen people and that the k Apocal. 20. vide Disp p. 53. camp of the Saincts and beloued cittie shall be diffused ouer the breadth of the earth l Matt. 16. and constantlie to the glorie of her Prince and Founder in that extreamest tryall maintaine her faith and alleageance against Hell gates when the deuil is let loose and doth oppose her with all his art and furie The infereÌ„ce Panormitan makes vpon the case which he said possible in the sence before declared is a strange one for he will haue it in that supposition to be true to saie fides noÌ„ deficit in Ecclesia faith in the Church faileth not as if one man were fidelium Congregatio a Church a Hierarchie subiect and superiour priest and clerk That it should beginne or end or be continued in one as a line is begunne or ended or continued with a point a diuisible by an indiuisible were something but one person to be a Church is as strange as it is for vnitie to be multitude or an indiuisible to be deuided ANtoninus p. 3. tit 23. c. 2. § 6. haec omnia quae a Panormitano dicta sunt de Papa Concilijs Ecclesia vniuersali amplectitur Baro p. 368. 3. IN confirmation of the Lawiers supposed testimonie there is cited Antoninus the Question being not of lawiers but of Deuines as subscribing to
intellecta vel à nobis S. Aug epist 111. Other bookes haue not in euerie part that infallibilitie other writers haue not such ample assistance as the Sacred writers had SI diuinarum scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua firmatur authoritate sine vllae dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist 112. 2. THe Second exception is that S. Augustine in an other place Epist 112. speakes not of writings only but of witnesses and leaues it as it is pretended in our choise whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture Wherevnto I answer that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings reiect all authoritie or testimonie that is other in your sence binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church as infallible esteeming it c S. August epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it yet the Church is not scripture To this purpose there be many places in him whereof I will cite one In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion without rebaptizing he makes this discourse d S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie should be consulted of vs in this Question wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ by whose testimonie he was commended now our Lord Iesus doth giue testimonie to his Church wherefore as that Church diffused thorough all Nations beginning at Hierusalem doth receaue such penitents so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued And if thou wilt not thou doest most perniciouslie cōtrarie to thy owne saluation striue against not me or any mā but our Sauiour himselfe whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be admitted as that Church which he whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be detestable commends with his testimonie doth admit The same is confirmed out of the Gospell wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his Apostles and Disciples and in them to the Church that they should beare e Matth. 24. Ioan. 15 testimonie of him yet the Apostles the Disciples the whole Church be not Scripture Againe f Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me saith our Sauiour he that contemneth you contemneth me There is therefore an authoritie aliue and distinct from the written word which wee must yeeld vnto by S. Augustine also confessed and consequentlie it is not in our choise to beleeue or contemne any but the scripture Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vnto them by the Apostles before it was written downe as you knowe by those words which immediatelie followe their commission g Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned To the place obiected Supra pag 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi creder◠vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited doe suggest an easie answer as this Others not commended by this authoritie beleeue or not beleeue as you see cause but others commended by this authoritie you must beleeue as farre as by it they are warranted and commended Our Sauiour proued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes must beleeue him for of him they giue testimonie The like it is of the Church if you beleeue the Prophets you must beleeue the vniuersall Church for they giue testimonie of it and as S. Augustine saith more cleere then of our i S. Augu. Enarr in psal 30. conc 2. Sauiour himselfe One testimonie may warrant another and so they will become in a manner one He that obaieth the magistrate doth therein honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes doth therein a dutie vnto God who commands it Wee stoope to God when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptization was come this k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis quarum nobis communis est authoritas ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum nec nos ita susceptum quantum ad hanc remattinet par nobis causa est Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs one comming from Heretikes againe baptized nor wee one so receaued for as much as concernes this matter that is producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other our cause is equall he shewes notwithstanding how euen in this point the Church in his time and he with it followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture l Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti c. for it is not of small regard or moment that whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part or faction began to be this Question did wauer and had the different Opiniōs of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike Church spred ouer all the world And a litle after wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs and euen in this thing when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church whom the authoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend that because the holie Scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat let him require in it the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs You know that actions donne with ones owne hād by the motion of his owne spirit a man reputes not aliene but his owne So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie donne by the motion of his Spirit Settle
And the iudge of controuersies the holie Ghost being put â—o silence errour in all other matters of that kinde is remedilesse For example if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme this errour were pernicions to the Church and â—hould it preuaile in all as it might â—f the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed both infants and others inmumerable would be ruined thereby for vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost Ioh. 3. he shall â—ot enter into the kingdome of heauen The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it and by the diuine commaund in both kinds The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them be not expressed there yet the Church hath them and the whole Christian lawe written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God Our obligations towards superiours of all sorts in conscience and by diuine precept to be performed and the rules of Christian conuersation be not expressed there though the Church may not be ignoraÌ„t of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and by God ordained for her direction and the Prophecies be necessarie for confirmation of her faith and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed I speake of that Creed because you name it as also because the certaintie of other Creeds set out in Councells or of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed I acknowledge it as proceeding from the assistance of the holie Ghost to the Church in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene or that of S. Aâ—hanasius if you beleeue it too then â—ecall your answer for whilst it stands there is no remedie for errours in these matters and many more nor way of assuraÌ„ce for many things which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells that our blessed Sauiour â—aught many things to the Church â—oth before his passion and after his â—esurrection which are not expresâ—ed in the Apostles Creede whereunâ—o you think only assistance is exâ—ended Reade the Gospell of S. â—ohn all ouer or of S. Luke or S. Maâ—hewe and you shall finde this to be â—ue And these things also the Spiâ—it according to promise doth suggest I haue yet many things to saie vnâ—o you which you cannot beare nowe â—ut when he the Spirit of truth comes â—e shall teach you all truth for he shall â—ot speake of himselfe Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare he shall speake This before his passion and after it for fortie daies he appeared to them speaking of the kingdome of God Act. Apost c. 1. Now that all this whether written or not written otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church is included within the obiect of the promised assistance I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ vpon whose promises all that acknowledge him to be true God Ioh. 14. should relie beleeuing them and him as most faithfull He the Spirit of truth shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture and the seÌ„â—â— which without assistaÌ„ce of the holie Ghost caÌ„not be done as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that matter Vide Disputat li. 3. c. 4. 5. but forbearing that discourse 〈◊〉 demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that oâ—â— Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme and Eucharist and Order if perchancâ— you thinke the institution of Bishop to be * Acts 20. deuine and how a man may knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention these things or that the texts indeed be Scripture if the holie Ghost doth by promise teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed I demaund also how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed or that he doth teach any at all if by the Scripture theÌ„ he teacheth more then is expressed in the Apostles Creede for the Scripture is not expreslie there And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed how be you certaine that the Gospells be diuine Scripture who taught you that The same Question I will aske and you must answer mark well of euerie Chaâ—ter and of the meaning of euerie verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine or to make for any peece of your Religion Thirdlie some perchance will obiect that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church which may retaine it though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre You knowe out of the begining of this Relection where this euasion is insinuated and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring you seeme to make an offer in the end to repose heere But none that beleeues the Scripture can rest in it First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors who were to teach and needed assistance in it Ioann 14. he shall teach you And so they did vnderstand it as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people and the people are to learne of the Pastors whose office is to teach how shall they beleeue vnles they heare and how shall they heare with out a preacher Rom. 10. Teach all Nations was said Matth. vlt. not to the people but to the Pastors Ioann vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him were bid to feede the flock of Christ wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people and among them the predestinate depend for instruction should be assisted in their teaching especiallie then when they speake all the same Thirdlie our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church Ephes 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine in the circumuention of errour and if this meanes which is established till the worlds end be fit for this purpose as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence whom he beleeues to be God it is assisted so that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it Fourthlie if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ speaketh and resolueth doubts by the Pastors of the Church according to that He which heareth you heareth me Luc. 10.
he which contemneth you coÌ„temneth me wee must beleeue that when all deliuer one and the same thing as Gods word or meaning vnto the world then without all doubt our Sauiour speakes by them and he who heares or contemnes them doth heare or contemne Iesus Christ whose ministers and Embassadors they be 2. Corint 5. Neither doe you satisfie this argument by saying that you will heare them if they speake according to the word of God Disput li. 3. c. 1. 2. for therein you challenge vnto your selfe without warrant that which you denie to the whole clergie who in the Apostles were bid teach and had the promise of assistance and in the Question Whether they or you haue the true sence of Gods word as of this This is my body you most arrogantlie doe make your selfe the iudge Your selfe I say without the Spirit denying in the meane time and impugning the power of iudging in this case in and to them which haue and shewe the promise of the Spirit Vt Diodorum ac Theod. non expellereÌ„t PP aut inuenerunt eos iam mutasse sententiam aut quod extremum est admonitos mutate fecerunt Nam aliter coâ— in Ecclesia Catholica manere potuisse quis sapiens Catholicus credat Cum verò tanta quae dicta sunt ego indoctus Latinae linguae de causa apud Graecos habita post centum annos pro meo captu facultate vel intelligere vel explicare potuerim quanta credendum est illam Sanctorum Patrum Congregationem in causa penes se recenti memoria cognoscere potuisse illo etiam reuelante qui dixit Vbi sunt duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo ibi in medio eorum sum Nam fideliter inuocatus non solum à Sacerdotibus sed ab omni quoque populo suo cuius fides expectatio ex illorum Authoritate dependet dat omnibus congregatis vnum cor animam vnam vt nullus eorum suam velit esse sententiam nisi quae fuerit veritatis Quoâ—ies ibi doctiores indoctioribus plures paucioribus illo eorum medio cedunt Qâ—oties etiam per nescientes scienter operatur ipse qui potest omnia facere supra quam petimus aut intelligimus qui promisit quòd nobiscum sit omnibus diâ—bus vsque ad consummationem saeculi Vtinam sibi nunquam saecularis potestas quod ei creditum non est in his negotijs vsurparet quae nunquam faeliciter vsurpauit Caeterùm congregatis in suo nomine Christus deesse non potest quia cùm sit omnipotens Veritas mentiri nullatenus potest Facund Episc Defens Chalced. Concilij li 8. c. 7. Et in eandem sententiam plura li. 12. c. 2. inter alia verò de sancto Leone dicit Neque vlterius retractare neque discutere se posse professus est ea quae semel fuerant Chalcedonensi definita Concilio velut quae nosset non tam humano quà m diuino Spiritu constituta This Father as also S. Aug. when they saie God reueales vnto the Councell vse the word something largelie in the sence imported in the promise of Assistance docebit vos suggeret vobis See the Disput pag 404. See the Disput l. 3. c. 6. Fourthly he that seeth the truth of this and would yet flie Councells will imagine perchance that although the Pastors all dispersed when they consent haue the warrant of the Spirit yet not when they be gathered in a Councell But this imaginatioÌ„ argues a weaknes in coÌ„ceauing the termes which are spoken of for in this congregation or Councell there is the whole teaching-power which teaching power as hath been shewed hath and by promise diuine assistance and is to establish the rest predestinate and all in faith and true beleefe Fiftlie you will saie that in generall Councells all the Pastors or Bishops be not present if they were you would beleeue what they propose because the whole exteriour teaching-authoritie is there obliging and they shewe their warrant Luc. â—0 he that heareth you heareth me Would your fellowes doe this there were but one thing more to be disputed in this matter that is Whether it be necessarie to the generalitie of a CouÌ„cell that all the Pastors and Bishops without exception be actuallie present in it the resolution of which Question wee haue in the practice of the Apostles and of the primitiue Church so that no further difficultie can be pretended if the truth be reallie our desire and hereticall obstinacie put aside See the Disput li. 4. c. 7. 8. Against the later place which brings with it the Apostles interpretation of the promise registred in the former it is said first that although that Councell had the assistance of the holie Ghost in making of their decree so that it was his also as their words import yet others after haue it not it was you think a priuiledge in them and lasted no longer in the Church but wilst they liued This euasion is precluded both by the words and the circumstances of the graunt it was made vnto the Apostles as Pastors for establishing of the Church dedit Pastores Ephes 4. vt iam non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur c. which Church needed it not onelie in the Apostles time but afterwards The Arian Sabellian Nestorian and other Heresies as other difficulties whereof some were about the most fundamentall points in the verie Creed did arise and the diuel hath not yet donne suggesting heresie and oppugning the doctrine which our Sauiour left vnto the Church and thereby impugning Him and Her wherefore still it is necessarie And accordinglie the promise was absolute without limitation of yeeres or ages Yea the text it selfe hath in aeternum Ioann 14. Ephes 4. for euer and donec occurramus omnes vntill wee meete all Secondlie it is said that vnto Pastors so assembled the holie Ghost by vertue of the promise is present assisting to fundamentall points but no further Before you would haue detracted from the graunt and wiped out of it the latitude of time now you limit it for the matter If a Lawier should vse your lease so you would exclaime that he did corrupt it WheÌ„ our Sauiour had prayed to his Father that he would establish or Sanctifie his Apostles and those who by their meanes were to beleeue in him that is his Church in the truth he did presentlie vnfould what he meant by that truth and said sermo tuus est veritas thy word the word of God is the truth and in this which comprehends not the Apostles Creed onlie he would haue theÌ„ established This sanctification is according to S. Cyrill a participation of the holy Ghost ad intelligendas rectè Scripturas Ecclesiae dogmata Cyrill Alex. in Ioan. li. 11. cap. 25. to vnderstand the Scriptures well and the doctrine of the Church In a like fullnes doth our Sauiour himselfe expresse the latitude of