err_v in_o any_o thing_n as_o those_o do_v that_o go_v thither_o for_o ordination_n than_o he_o be_v ignorant_a of_o their_o error_n may_v lawful_o be_v ordain_v there_o and_o that_o christ_n will_v accept_v of_o it_o for_o you_o say_v that_o a_o sincere_a aim_n at_o the_o substance_n with_o ignorance_n of_o the_o error_n in_o circumstance_n will_v excuse_v so_o that_o all_o that_o you_o have_v say_v though_o it_o will_v not_o justify_v a_o man_n go_v to_o rome_n for_o ordination_n that_o know_v their_o error_n and_o know_v there_o be_v no_o necessity_n to_o go_v thither_o yet_o it_o do_v justify_v all_o that_o be_v otherwise_o mind_v and_o be_v still_o ignorant_a by_o your_o own_o confession_n for_o you_o confess_v that_o christ_n accept_v of_o all_o ordination_n that_o differ_v but_o in_o circumstance_n be_v you_o not_o indulge_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n but_o to_o proceed_v quest_n 17_o i_o demand_v if_o the_o protestant_a ordination_n be_v the_o only_a lawful_a ordination_n than_o which_o of_o those_o whether_o episcopal_n presbyterian_a or_o independent_a be_v that_o which_o christ_n approve_v of_o etc._n etc._n thereupon_o you_o query_n whether_o you_o may_v not_o say_v all_o be_v approve_v by_o christ_n but_o do_v all_o you_o have_v say_v signify_v christ_n approbation_n of_o all_o these_o have_v you_o urge_v any_o thing_n but_o that_o which_o be_v as_o disputable_a as_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n and_o so_o endeavour_v to_o prove_v one_o doubtful_a thing_n by_o another_o for_o you_o ask_v i_o if_o that_o i_o do_v not_o easy_o see_v all_o these_o viz._n the_o episcopal_a presbyterian_a and_o the_o most_o sober_a independent_o own_o the_o essence_n of_o ordination_n that_o be_v say_v you_o a_o set_v apart_o man_n to_o the_o ministry_n by_o minister_n and_o that_o they_o do_v practise_v the_o purity_n of_o that_o ordinance_n by_o set_v apart_o fit_a man_n in_o a_o gospel-way_n for_o those_o end_v a_o ministry_n be_v appoint_v without_o superstitious_a intermixture_n sir_n when_o you_o have_v prove_v this_o which_o you_o ask_v i_o if_o i_o do_v not_o easy_o see_v to_o be_v in_o all_o the_o ordination_n before_o mention_v than_o i_o shall_v grant_v your_o consequence_n viz._n that_o christ_n approve_v all_o these_o ordination_n but_o in_o the_o mean_a while_o i_o deny_v the_o antecedent_n for_o all_o you_o say_v i_o may_v easy_o see_v it_o but_o if_o it_o be_v so_o easy_a for_o i_o to_o see_v why_o be_v it_o not_o as_o easy_a for_o you_o to_o have_v prove_v it_o be_v this_o to_o reason_n rational_o or_o be_v it_o not_o that_o which_o a_o scholar_n that_o value_v either_o credit_n or_o conscience_n will_v scorn_v viz._n to_o take_v it_o for_o grant_v all_o these_o minister_n be_v such_o and_o that_o all_o their_o ordination_n be_v lawful_a and_o then_o conclude_v that_o christ_n own_v they_o all_o and_o give_v we_o no_o text_n to_o prove_v any_o thing_n you_o say_v though_o the_o stress_n of_o the_o controversy_n depend_v upon_o it_o quest_n 18_o and_o because_o i_o query_n if_o all_o those_o ordination_n of_o episcopacy_n and_o presbytery_n etc._n etc._n be_v lawful_a as_o you_o confess_v then_o why_o be_v these_o ordination_n oppose_v one_o to_o the_o other_o by_o the_o several_a patron_n of_o they_o this_o be_v the_o substance_n of_o that_o query_n you_o thereupon_o ask_v i_o if_o i_o be_o not_o uncharitable_a to_o charge_v the_o error_n of_o one_o man_n meaning_n dr._n taylor_n who_o oppose_v the_o presbyter_n as_o man_n that_o have_v no_o power_n to_o ordain_v upon_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o episcopal_a way_n etc._n etc._n to_o which_o i_o answer_v that_o though_o i_o cite_v he_o for_o brevity_n sake_n yet_o i_o do_v refer_v the_o reader_n to_o his_o book_n call_v episcopacy_n assert_v where_o he_o cite_v the_o father_n and_o the_o constant_a opinion_n of_o the_o church_n for_o the_o proof_n of_o what_o he_o say_v against_o ordination_n by_o presbyter_n to_o which_o you_o have_v say_v nothing_o but_o tell_v we_o a_o story_n at_o the_o three_o hand_n of_o what_o bishop_n usher_n tell_v the_o king_n of_o the_o practice_n of_o one_o particular_a church_n viz._n of_o alexandria_n and_o of_o what_o the_o rubric_n say_v and_o of_o what_o dr._n prid._n say_v but_o to_o these_o i_o may_v answer_v that_o it_o be_v nothing_o to_o the_o opinion_n of_o most_o of_o the_o bishop_n way_n and_o that_o not_o only_o in_o england_n but_o wherever_o that_o government_n be_v practise_v and_o for_o your_o cite_n the_o london-minister_n be_v not_o they_o like_v to_o be_v good_a witness_n see_v they_o be_v party_n that_o will_v fain_o make_v all_o antiquity_n speak_v for_o the_o thing_n they_o profess_v that_o the_o novelty_n of_o they_o may_v not_o be_v suspect_v quest_n 19_o in_o my_o nineteenth_o query_n i_o ask_v if_o that_o the_o ordination_n by_o bishop_n be_v lawful_a why_o then_o do_v the_o presbyterian_o throw_v down_o episcopacy_n and_o not_o rather_o reform_v it_o this_o be_v the_o sum_n of_o this_o question_n to_o which_o in_o stead_n of_o answer_v you_o ask_v if_o i_o do_v still_o go_v on_o in_o my_o unchristian_a charge_n whereby_o you_o tell_v i_o i_o do_v not_o only_o lay_v injustice_n but_o blood_n upon_o the_o head_n of_o presbyterian_o etc._n etc._n but_o wherein_o do_v i_o speak_v any_o thing_n unlike_o a_o christian_a if_o that_o be_v true_a as_o you_o say_v viz._n that_o episcopal_a ordination_n be_v good_a and_o that_o they_o do_v practise_v it_o in_o the_o purity_n of_o it_o without_o superstitious_a mixture_n as_o you_o confess_v in_o your_o seventeen_o query_n then_o how_o do_v i_o exhibit_v a_o unchristian_a charge_n against_o they_o by_o ask_v why_o they_o do_v not_o reform_v the_o government_n rather_o than_o cashier_v it_o etc._n etc._n you_o go_v on_o and_o further_a demand_n whether_o i_o dare_v assert_v that_o the_o presbyterian_o do_v throw_v down_o the_o government_n of_o episcopacy_n mere_o for_o this_o error_n in_o ordination_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v as_o before_o if_o they_o do_v err_v in_o other_o thing_n why_o be_v not_o those_o reform_v and_o ordination_n by_o bishop_n still_o preserve_v see_v you_o say_v that_o their_o ordination_n be_v in_o purity_n but_o further_a how_o come_v this_o to_o pass_v that_o in_o your_o seventeen_o query_n you_o say_v that_o episcopal_a ordination_n be_v in_o purity_n and_o yet_o ask_v i_o whether_o that_o government_n be_v throw_v down_o mere_o for_o the_o error_n in_o ordination_n how_o can_v it_o be_v in_o purity_n if_o it_o have_v error_n and_o for_o your_o say_n that_o the_o anabaptistical_n spirit_n be_v bloody_a witness_v those_o in_o germany_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v this_o be_v a_o unchristian_a charge_n indeed_o and_o therefore_o you_o think_v you_o will_v cry_v out_o first_o that_o other_o be_v guilty_a that_o yourself_o may_v not_o be_v suspect_v for_o what_o if_o that_o story_n of_o germany_n be_v true_a which_o be_v doubtful_a in_o many_o thing_n do_v not_o this_o show_n what_o spirit_n you_o be_v of_o lay_v the_o cause_n of_o the_o late_a war_n at_o the_o anabaptist_n door_n have_v they_o not_o be_v as_o serviceable_a to_o their_o power_n to_o free_v their_o country_n from_o slavery_n as_o any_o both_o in_o purse_n and_o person_n be_v they_o the_o cause_n of_o the_o first_o and_o second_o war_n in_o scotland_n and_o the_o second_o war_n in_o england_n be_v any_o of_o they_o you_o call_v anabaptist_n in_o the_o treasonable_a engagement_n who_o of_o they_o do_v join_v to_o bring_v in_o king_n charles_n again_o into_o scotland_n first_o and_o afterward_o into_o england_n be_v it_o the_o anabaptist_n or_o who_o be_v it_o pray_v speak_v out_o that_o make_v all_o these_o uproar_n both_o in_o city_n and_o country_n but_o lest_o you_o shall_v err_v for_o want_v of_o information_n let_v i_o show_v you_o that_o the_o presbyter_n have_v be_v inspire_v with_o a_o worse_a spirit_n to_o carry_v on_o their_o presbyterian-usurpation_n than_o ever_o the_o anabaptist_n be_v in_o germany_n nay_o i_o be_o sure_a i_o shall_v not_o be_v rash_a if_o i_o shall_v say_v the_o same_o spirit_n which_o they_o have_v cry_v down_o in_o their_o adversary_n the_o jesuit_n have_v be_v find_v breathe_v in_o they_o and_o for_o proof_n hereof_o i_o shall_v refer_v the_o reader_n to_o the_o history_n and_o write_n that_o have_v be_v write_v by_o great_a patron_n of_o the_o presbyterian_a way_n i_o shall_v begin_v with_o mr._n knox_n who_o in_o his_o history_n of_o the_o reformation_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n say_v that_o without_o the_o reformation_n which_o they_o desire_v they_o mean_v the_o covenanter_n will_v never_o be_v subject_a to_o any_o mortal_a man_n see_v knox_n history_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n first_o impression_n in_o octavo_n page_n 265._o they_o viz._n the_o presbyterian_o
hearty_o do_v congratulate_v with_o they_o and_o do_v rejoice_v at_o their_o begun-return_a to_o their_o mother_n the_o church_n of_o rome_n in_o that_o they_o have_v forsake_v the_o erroneous_a opinion_n of_o the_o protestant_n concern_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o have_v happy_o in_o that_o particular_a join_v with_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o in_o the_o same_o page_n he_o say_v that_o they_o viz_o the_o presbyterian_o have_v so_o well_o begin_v at_o the_o head_n the_o civil_a magistrate_n that_o they_o trust_v they_o will_v embrace_v the_o other_o member_n of_o the_o roman_a doctrine_n by_o which_o the_o reader_n may_v see_v that_o the_o presbyter_n have_v seek_v to_o climb_v into_o their_o authority_n by_o the_o jesuit_n step_n though_o now_o they_o cry_v out_o against_o the_o same_o thing_n which_o make_v i_o remember_v a_o old_a say_n which_o be_v verify_v in_o the_o presbyter_n though_o it_o have_v be_v apply_v to_o prince_n presbyter_n enthrone_v when_o once_o their_o turn_n be_v end_v throw_v down_o those_o stair_n by_o which_o themselves_o ascend_v quest_n 20_o but_o you_o proceed_v to_o the_o twenty_o query_n and_o therein_o you_o tell_v i_o that_o bishop_n do_v not_o ordain_v as_o bishop_n but_o as_o minister_n in_o answer_n to_o my_o twenty_o query_n but_o how_o do_v you_o prove_v they_o do_v not_o ordain_v as_o bishop_n this_o be_v a_o figment_n of_o your_o own_o brain_n for_o if_o they_o do_v it_o as_o minister_n why_o then_o may_v not_o any_o minister_n have_v ordain_v as_o well_o as_o they_o but_o they_o never_o suffer_v any_o such_o thing_n among_o they_o and_o for_o your_o say_n that_o they_o be_v lawful_a minister_n of_o christ_n and_o therefore_o you_o do_v not_o distrust_v his_o promise_n of_o be_v with_o they_o what_o a_o argument_n be_v this_o may_v not_o any_o body_n by_o this_o argument_n cry_v up_o themselves_o for_o minister_n as_o too_o many_o now_o adays_o do_v and_o say_v that_o christ_n will_v be_v with_o they_o to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o will_v therefore_o before_o you_o go_v to_o prove_v that_o which_o i_o deny_v not_o prove_v that_o which_o be_v deny_v that_o they_o be_v christ_n minister_n but_o if_o they_o be_v your_o brethren_n the_o presbyterian_o have_v do_v very_o ill_o to_o throw_v they_o out_o of_o their_o live_n and_o expose_v their_o wife_n and_o child_n to_o penury_n and_o want_n while_o they_o enjoy_v their_o place_n and_o revenue_n do_v ever_o christ_n minister_n turn_v any_o out_o of_o their_o place_n that_o they_o judge_v christ_n minister_n or_o do_v ever_o any_o of_o they_o come_v to_o take_v the_o profit_n of_o another_o live_n without_o his_o consent_n which_o be_v the_o incumbent_n than_o they_o judge_v the_o incumbent_a christ_n minister_n and_o yet_o these_o thing_n have_v be_v do_v without_o blush_v so_o that_o though_o you_o say_v christ_n have_v not_o devest_v they_o of_o their_o power_n sure_o some_o body_n have_v devest_v they_o of_o their_o profit_n quest_n 21_o in_o the_o twenty_o one_o query_n i_o demand_v why_o a_o man_n may_v not_o still_o go_v to_o the_o bishop_n for_o ordination_n if_o that_o their_o ordination_n be_v of_o god_n since_o their_o authority_n be_v never_o take_v from_o they_o in_o a_o ecclesiastical_a way_n which_o be_v the_o sum_n of_o this_o question_n whereupon_o you_o query_n what_o i_o mean_v by_o take_v away_o authority_n i_o answer_v when_o they_o shall_v be_v devest_v thereof_o by_o the_o church_n for_o scandalous_a and_o enormous_a crime_n you_o ask_v if_o episcopal_a authority_n of_o ordain_v as_o minister_n be_v not_o found_v upon_o god_n word_n i_o answer_v first_o if_o episcopal_a authority_n to_o ordain_v as_o minister_n be_v absurd_a than_o it_o can_v be_v ground_v upon_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o that_o it_o be_v so_o appear_v for_o be_v it_o not_o absurd_a for_o you_o to_o say_v that_o the_o bishop_n authority_n be_v of_o god_n to_o ordain_v minister_n and_o yet_o say_v that_o they_o must_v not_o ordain_v as_o bishop_n but_o as_o minister_n for_o if_o episcopal_a authority_n be_v of_o god_n than_o they_o may_v lawful_o ordain_v as_o bishop_n for_o all_o will_v confess_v that_o a_o man_n may_v lawful_o exercise_v any_o authority_n that_o come_v from_o god_n therefore_o how_o ridiculous_a be_v you_o to_o confess_v that_o episcopal_a authority_n be_v of_o god_n and_o yet_o say_v they_o must_v not_o ordain_v as_o bishop_n but_o as_o minister_n and_o to_o the_o late_a part_n of_o your_o counter-query_a about_o the_o purity_n of_o ordination_n i_o have_v already_o answer_v by_o show_v you_o how_o shameful_o you_o beg_v the_o question_n by_o take_v it_o for_o grant_v that_o your_o presbyterian-ordination_a be_v a_o pure_a ordination_n than_o any_o other_o when_o for_o the_o proof_n thereof_o you_o have_v not_o allege_v one_o text_n nor_o argument_n through_o your_o whole_a book_n for_o the_o three_o particular_a in_o this_o question_n i_o shall_v answer_v that_o when_o i_o come_v to_o speak_v to_o the_o twenty_o seven_o query_n quest_n 22_o i_o demand_v in_o my_o twenty_o second_o query_n if_o that_o christ_n have_v ever_o two_o ordination_n in_o his_o church_n one_o contrary_a to_o the_o other_o and_o yet_o both_o lawful_a for_o such_o be_v the_o state_n of_o episcopacy_n and_o presbytery_n in_o your_o counter-query_a to_o this_o you_o talk_v of_o logic_n and_o indeed_o you_o do_v but_o talk_v of_o it_o for_o have_v you_o observe_v the_o rule_n of_o logic_n you_o will_v never_o have_v beg_v question_n in_o stead_n of_o answer_v and_o prove_v they_o but_o how_o do_v it_o appear_v that_o i_o say_v any_o thing_n that_o be_v illogical_a in_o the_o last_o question_n if_o i_o do_v say_v the_o episcopal_a and_o presbyterian_a ordination_n can_v be_v both_o of_o christ_n appointment_n since_o they_o contradict_v one_o another_o but_o you_o think_v to_o salve_v this_o sore_a by_o tell_v we_o that_o they_o be_v not_o contradictious_a since_o they_o both_o agree_v in_o a_o ordination_n by_o minister_n and_o differ_v but_o in_o circumstance_n etc._n etc._n to_o this_o i_o answer_v that_o they_o so_o differ_v that_o where_o any_o have_v be_v ordain_v by_o mere_a presbyter_n it_o have_v in_o most_o part_n of_o the_o christian_a world_n be_v esteem_v as_o a_o rullity_n and_o where_o presbyterian_a ordination_n have_v be_v allow_v it_o have_v be_v but_o in_o case_n of_o necessity_n as_o appear_v by_o the_o english_a bishop_n confession_n to_o the_o bishop_n of_o scotland_n that_o it_o have_v be_v adjudge_v a_o nullity_n viz._n ordination_n by_o presbyter_n i_o prove_v first_o from_o the_o testimony_n of_o hierom_n what_o say_v he_o do_v a_o bishop_n that_o a_o priest_n do_v not_o initio_fw-la epist_n ad_fw-la evagrium_fw-la hom._n 11._o in_o 1._o ad_fw-la timot._fw-la initio_fw-la except_o ordination_n chrysostome_n say_v the_o same_o a_o bishop_n say_v he_o exceed_v a_o priest_n only_a in_o ordination_n athanasius_n speak_v of_o ischyras_n who_o profess_v to_o be_v a_o priest_n say_v that_o he_o do_v but_o boast_v himself_o to_o be_v one_o flavi_fw-la apolog._n 2._o epist_n presbyt_fw-la ad_fw-la flavi_fw-la for_o say_v he_o he_o be_v in_o no_o sort_n to_o be_v approve_v of_o see_v he_o be_v not_o ordain_v by_o a_o bishop_n but_o by_o coluthius_n a_o presbyter_n and_o the_o council_n of_o alexandria_n speak_v of_o the_o same_o coluthius_n say_v that_o he_o die_v in_o the_o simple_z degree_n of_o a_o presbyter_n and_o therefore_o all_o the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n exercise_v by_o he_o be_v null_a and_o that_o all_o those_o that_o be_v ordain_v by_o he_o be_v but_o lie_v person_n and_o under_o that_o name_n and_o title_n of_o lay-person_n they_o be_v admit_v to_o the_o holy_a communion_n again_o epiphanius_n reckon_v ordination_n by_o presbyter_n as_o a_o arrian_n heresy_n she_o 75._o in_o as_o much_o as_o arrius_n hold_v that_o the_o presbyter_n may_v ordain_v as_o well_o as_o bishop_n etc._n etc._n and_o further_o he_o say_v that_o the_o episcopal_a order_n be_v to_o beget_v father_n to_o the_o church_n whereas_o the_o priestly_a or_o presbyterian_a order_n be_v to_o beget_v child_n by_o the_o laver_n of_o regeneration_n and_o therefore_o say_v he_o they_o mean_v the_o presbyter_n can_v ordain_v nor_o beget_v father_n and_o doctor_n to_o the_o church_n etc._n etc._n augustin_n haeres_fw-la 53._o blame_n the_o arrian_n for_o that_o they_o have_v learn_v of_o one_o arrius_n to_o confound_v the_o order_n of_o priest_n and_o bishop_n be_v it_o not_o plain_a then_o that_o you_o endeavour_v to_o delude_v your_o reader_n by_o say_v that_o there_o be_v no_o contradiction_n touch_v this_o matter_n and_o that_o it_o be_v the_o error_n of_o one_o man_n meaning_n dr._n taylor_n when_o indeed_o your_o ignorance_n be_v very_o great_a if_o you_o say_v he_o be_v alone_o in_o this_o matter_n by_o this_o
though_o they_o shall_v run_v from_o the_o error_n of_o rome_n into_o other_o error_n that_o be_v as_o bad_a or_o worse_o but_o i_o therefore_o answer_v further_o that_o though_o a_o man_n can_v be_v a_o true_a minister_n but_o by_o one_o of_o these_o way_n it_o do_v not_o therefore_o follow_v as_o i_o have_v already_o show_v in_o my_o answer_n to_o mr._n willes_n his_o letter_n at_o the_o begin_n of_o this_o book_n that_o mr._n willes_n be_v a_o minister_n either_o of_o these_o way_n for_o though_o i_o grant_v these_o two_o to_o be_v the_o way_n of_o admission_n into_o the_o ministry_n yet_o i_o do_v deny_v he_o to_o be_v enter_v by_o either_o of_o they_o though_o he_o succeed_v from_o those_o you_o call_v our_o first_o reformer_n for_o i_o do_v deny_v that_o they_o be_v true_a minister_n of_o christ_n either_o way_n or_o that_o they_o have_v either_o a_o lawful_a succession_n or_o necessity_n to_o authorise_v they_o but_o of_o this_o more_o anon_o quest_n 27_o i_o demand_v if_o mr._n willes_n be_v a_o minister_n by_o succession_n whether_o he_o do_v not_o succeed_v from_o rome_n you_o thereupon_o demand_v why_o there_o may_v not_o be_v a_o lawful_a succession_n from_o the_o apostle_n by_o rome_n your_o first_o reason_n be_v because_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o first_o receiver_n can_v not_o null_a this_o ordinance_n etc._n etc._n to_o which_o i_o answer_v what_o if_o that_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o corruption_n of_o receiver_n can_v not_o null_a a_o ordinance_n this_o do_v not_o prove_v that_o corrupt_a receiver_n of_o the_o ordinance_n of_o baptism_n can_v administer_v baptism_n or_o that_o corrupt_a receiver_n of_o the_o lord_n supper_n can_v administer_v it_o lawful_o after_o they_o have_v be_v separate_v from_o for_o their_o corruption_n but_o your_o second_o reason_n say_v that_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o dispenser_n can_v not_o make_v the_o succession_n cease_v and_o this_o you_o will_v prove_v by_o many_o similitude_n you_o say_v the_o law_n do_v not_o lose_v its_o force_n if_o it_o be_v pronounce_v by_o a_o wicked_a judge_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v if_o this_o judge_n be_v lawful_o turn_v out_o of_o his_o place_n for_o wickedness_n then_o though_o the_o law_n do_v not_o lose_v its_o force_n yet_o this_o judge_n have_v no_o power_n to_o administer_v it_o so_o i_o say_v of_o your_o ordination_n that_o if_o you_o have_v just_o eject_v the_o pope_n he_o have_v after_o this_o no_o power_n to_o administer_v the_o law_n of_o christ_n no_o more_o than_o a_o judge_n that_o be_v throw_v out_o have_v power_n to_o administer_v the_o law_n of_o the_o land_n thus_o your_o simile_n make_v against_o you_o and_o for_o your_o simile_n of_o judas_n and_o a_o hypocrite_n whence_o you_o will_v infer_v that_o their_o heart-corruption_n do_v not_o null_a god_n ordinance_n that_o be_v administer_v by_o they_o i_o answer_v that_o it_o be_v true_a that_o so_o long_o as_o their_o sin_n be_v like_o your_o name_n unknown_a if_o they_o do_v administer_v ordinance_n they_o may_v be_v value_v but_o what_o if_o their_o sin_n be_v know_v and_o that_o they_o shall_v be_v reject_v as_o heretic_n or_o as_o scandalous_a person_n have_v they_o then_o any_o power_n to_o administer_v sacred_a thing_n this_o answer_n will_v serve_v for_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o your_o similitude_n but_o further_a if_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v apostate_n and_o heretic_n and_o the_o church_n of_o england_n have_v eject_v she_o and_o separate_v from_o she_o and_o judge_v the_o pope_n to_o be_v the_o great_a antichrist_n as_o indeed_o they_o do_v than_o it_o follow_v from_o scripture_n that_o it_o be_v a_o sin_n to_o receive_v ordination_n from_o they_o for_o the_o scripture_n say_v matth._n 18._o if_o that_o any_o refuse_v to_o hear_v the_o church_n he_o shall_v be_v esteem_v as_o a_o heathen_a and_o a_o publican_n now_o then_o if_o the_o church_n of_o england_n do_v reject_v rome_n for_o her_o sin_n and_o idolatry_n it_o be_v then_o as_o lawful_a for_o i_o to_o go_v to_o any_o fellow_n under_o a_o hedge_n and_o be_v ordain_v by_o he_o as_o it_o be_v to_o go_v to_o any_o eject_v of_o excommunicate_v person_n for_o it_o and_o if_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v not_o cut_v off_o from_o be_v a_o church_n then_o be_v you_o very_o wicked_a in_o that_o you_o have_v not_o communion_n with_o they_o while_o they_o be_v of_o the_o body_n if_o they_o be_v not_o of_o the_o body_n than_o any_o of_o the_o body_n have_v as_o much_o power_n to_o administer_v ordination_n as_o they_o and_o this_o be_v not_o my_o single_a opinion_n but_o it_o have_v be_v the_o opinion_n of_o former_a time_n for_o athanasius_n say_v in_o epist_n de_fw-fr conciliis_fw-la by_o what_o right_o can_v any_o be_v bishop_n that_o do_v receive_v their_o ordination_n from_o heretic_n and_o further_o he_o say_v that_o it_o be_v impossible_a that_o ordination_n make_v by_o secundus_fw-la be_v a_o arrian_n can_v have_v any_o force_n in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n and_o further_o if_o the_o pope_n be_v reject_v as_o that_o great_a antichrist_n it_o can_v be_v imagine_v that_o he_o who_o all_o the_o protestant_n judge_v to_o be_v christ_n great_a enemy_n shall_v so_o far_o serve_v the_o great_a design_n of_o christ_n glory_n as_o lawful_o to_o ordain_v and_o empower_v man_n to_o preach_v christ_n so_o that_o either_o you_o do_v not_o leave_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o reject_v they_o as_o heretic_n or_o if_o you_o do_v you_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v behold_v to_o they_o for_o your_o ordination_n and_o further_o the_o protestant_a calvinist_n in_o france_n say_v in_o the_o confession_n of_o their_o faith_n confess_v art_n 21._o that_o their_o call_v be_v extraordinary_a and_o do_v confirm_v the_o same_o by_o their_o practice_n in_o that_o they_o ordain_v anew_o such_o priest_n as_o revolt_v from_o rome_n but_o if_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o dispenser_n do_v not_o make_v their_o ordination_n a_o nullity_n than_o there_o be_v no_o reason_n for_o such_o a_o practice_n in_o a_o reform_a church_n and_o mr._n whitaker_n be_v of_o this_o mind_n for_o say_v he_o we_o will_v not_o have_v you_o think_v that_o we_o make_v such_o reckon_n of_o your_o order_n as_o to_o hold_v our_o vocation_n unlawful_a without_o they_o and_o mr._n fulk_n that_o famous_a opposer_n of_o rome_n tell_v they_o that_o they_o be_v deceive_v high_o if_o they_o think_v we_o esteem_v of_o their_o office_n of_o bishop_n priest_n and_o deacons-bet_a than_o lay-man_n 50_o see_v his_o answer_n to_o a_o counterfeit_a catholic_n p._n 50_o and_o further_o mr._n fulk_n say_v that_o with_o all_o our_o heart_n we_o mean_v the_o protestant_n abhor_v and_o detest_v all_o your_o stink_a greasy_a antichristian_a order_n and_o yet_o other_o of_o you_o glory_n in_o your_o succession_n see_v the_o contradiction_n among_o yourselves_o who_o of_o you_o shall_v a_o man_n believe_v so_o that_o if_o i_o say_v you_o can_v have_v a_o lawful_a ordination_n from_o rome_n see_v they_o be_v by_o you_o judge_v heretic_n and_o such_o as_o be_v deserve_o exclude_v i_o have_v the_o scripture_n of_o my_o side_n that_o say_v you_o shall_v esteem_v such_o as_o heathen_n i_o have_v several_a eminent_a light_n that_o shine_v in_o the_o church_n of_o old_a i_o have_v some_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o therein_o many_o very_a famous_a both_o at_o home_n and_o abroad_o which_o be_v of_o my_o mind_n your_o last_o argument_n you_o bring_v to_o this_o point_n be_v that_o christianity_n be_v profess_v and_o therefore_o you_o ask_v i_o if_o i_o will_v say_v there_o be_v not_o a_o company_n of_o true_a believer_n all_o the_o time_n the_o pope_n rule_v here_o etc._n etc._n whence_o you_o infer_v if_o they_o be_v true_a believer_n than_o there_o be_v a_o church_n and_o if_o a_o church_n than_o there_o must_v be_v a_o ministry_n because_o you_o say_v christ_n promise_v ephes_n 4.11_o 12_o 13._o that_o the_o saint_n shall_v have_v such_o a_o ministry_n till_o they_o come_v to_o be_v a_o perfect_a man_n etc._n etc._n if_o this_o be_v a_o good_a argument_n why_o do_v you_o rail_v against_o the_o anabaptist_n for_o dare_v you_o say_v there_o be_v not_o true_a believer_n among_o they_o if_o there_o be_v then_o by_o your_o logic_n they_o be_v a_o church_n and_o if_o a_o church_n than_o they_o must_v have_v christ_n promise_n fulfil_v and_o they_o then_o must_v have_v a_o true_a ministry_n till_o they_o come_v to_o be_v a_o perfect_a man_n by_o this_o rule_n mr._n brookes_n his_o people_n be_v a_o true_a church_n and_o must_v have_v a_o true_a ministry_n or_o else_o you_o must_v say_v the_o people_n that_o walk_v with_o he_o be_v all_o unbeliever_n quest_n 28_o i_o demand_v in_o my_o twenty_o eight_o query_n whether_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n
but_o what_o man_n take_v up_o by_o necessity_n etc._n etc._n this_o be_v the_o substance_n of_o the_o question_n to_o which_o you_o say_v nothing_o but_o what_o have_v be_v say_v and_o answer_v only_o you_o demand_v whether_o there_o may_v not_o be_v a_o lawful_a succession_n from_o those_o that_o first_o take_v upon_o they_o this_o office_n by_o necessity_n and_o whether_o any_o in_o a_o ordinary_a lawful_a way_n can_v be_v in_o office_n but_o those_o that_o have_v it_o from_o that_o succession_n etc._n etc._n to_o this_o i_o answer_v that_o if_o what_o you_o here_o suppose_v be_v true_a then_o why_o do_v not_o our_o first_o reformer_n go_v to_o the_o minister_n of_o other_o reform_a church_n for_o ordination_n rather_o than_o take_v it_o from_o mr._n scory_n and_o that_o faction_n since_o there_o be_v divers_a reform_a church_n where_o they_o may_v have_v be_v ordain_v without_o receive_v it_o from_o rome_n or_o without_o put_v themselves_o into_o the_o office_n upon_o a_o pretend_a necessity_n so_o that_o if_o what_o you_o say_v be_v true_a that_o there_o may_v be_v a_o lawful_a succession_n from_o those_o who_o first_o become_v officer_n by_o virtue_n of_o a_o necessity_n and_o that_o it_o be_v sinful_a to_o pretend_v to_o necessity_n afterward_o then_o our_o first_o reformer_n can_v plead_v not_o guilty_a since_o as_o i_o have_v say_v there_o be_v no_o necessity_n for_o they_o to_o own_o a_o ordination_n from_o rome_n because_o they_o may_v have_v have_v have_v it_o in_o more_o purity_n from_o those_o you_o call_v the_o reform_a church_n which_o have_v separate_v from_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n before_o england_n and_o second_o there_o be_v no_o necessity_n for_o they_o to_o become_v officer_n without_o ordination_n no_o more_o than_o there_o be_v now_o because_o there_o be_v many_o reform_a church_n in_o be_v to_o which_o they_o may_v have_v apply_v themselves_o for_o ordination_n as_o in_o france_n and_o germany_n etc._n etc._n last_o if_o there_o be_v no_o true_a church_n in_o the_o world_n that_o have_v power_n to_o ordain_v our_o new_a bishop_n but_o they_o must_v make_v use_n of_o that_o which_o they_o receive_v from_o rome_n and_o that_o this_o be_v a_o lawful_a ordination_n as_o you_o confess_v than_o you_o must_v needs_o say_v that_o the_o church_n of_o france_n germany_n geneva_n scotland_n etc._n etc._n be_v no_o true_a church_n and_o have_v no_o true_a and_o lawful_a succession_n or_o if_o they_o have_v be_v true_a reform_a church_n either_o by_o succession_n or_o necessity_n why_o then_o do_v not_o our_o first_o reformer_n go_v to_o some_o of_o these_o to_o be_v ordain_v and_o since_o they_o do_v not_o do_v it_o not_o manifest_o appear_v that_o they_o be_v not_o true_a minister_n by_o succession_n because_o they_o receive_v ordination_n from_o rome_n who_o you_o call_v a_o harlot_n when_o they_o may_v have_v have_v it_o from_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n then_o in_o be_v and_o because_o there_o be_v reform_v church_n in_o be_v where_o they_o may_v have_v be_v ordain_v they_o have_v no_o reason_n to_o plead_v to_o any_o necessity_n then_o of_o preach_v without_o ordination_n any_o more_o than_o mr._n brooks_n and_o other_o have_v who_o mr._n willes_n and_o you_o condemn_v quest_n 40_o i_o come_v now_o to_o the_o forty_o question_n that_o i_o propound_v which_o demand_v what_o ground_n mr._n willes_n have_v to_o baptize_v the_o child_n of_o wicked_a parent_n etc._n etc._n and_o to_o this_o you_o say_v nothing_o but_o what_o i_o have_v answer_v already_o only_o you_o beg_v a_o question_n viz._n that_o child_n have_v a_o right_a to_o be_v member_n of_o a_o visible_a church_n which_o when_o you_o have_v prove_v it_o viz._n that_o infant_n while_o they_o be_v in_o infancy_n have_v a_o immediate_a right_n to_o be_v member_n of_o a_o church_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n i_o shall_v confess_v they_o may_v be_v baptize_v but_o till_o then_o i_o shall_v be_v against_o the_o baptise_v any_o infant_n for_o all_o you_o think_v i_o will_v conceal_v my_o opinion_n in_o this_o matter_n quest_n 41_o in_o the_o next_o place_n i_o demand_v whether_o to_o baptize_v the_o child_n of_o wicked_a parent_n be_v not_o contrary_a to_o the_o opinion_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n you_o reply_v that_o in_o the_o sense_n m._n willes_n do_v assert_v the_o baptise_v of_o the_o child_n of_o wicked_a parent_n it_o be_v lawful_a to_o which_o i_o answer_v that_o i_o have_v reply_v to_o mr._n willes_n his_o sense_n about_o the_o baptise_v the_o child_n of_o wicked_a parent_n in_o my_o answer_n to_o his_o letter_n at_o the_o begin_n of_o this_o book_n all_o that_o you_o say_v to_o this_o question_n beside_o what_o i_o have_v answer_v do_v appertain_v to_o some_o practice_n of_o mr._n brooks_n which_o i_o shall_v not_o meddle_v with_o because_o i_o be_o not_o acquaint_v with_o they_o only_o i_o take_v notice_n that_o in_o p._n 48._o of_o your_o book_n before_o you_o end_v this_o question_n you_o say_v that_o if_o the_o ministry_n of_o england_n be_n antichristian_a than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o those_o that_o they_o have_v baptize_v be_v unlawful_o baptize_v etc._n etc._n how_o shameful_o do_v you_o contradict_v yourself_o do_v you_o not_o say_v before_o that_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o dispenser_n of_o ordinance_n can_v not_o make_v the_o ordinance_n a_o nullity_n though_o the_o administrator_n be_v antichristian_a and_o do_v you_o not_o now_o in_o effect_n say_v that_o baptism_n be_v a_o nullity_n if_o the_o administrator_n be_v antichristian_a for_o you_o say_v if_o the_o national_a ministry_n be_v antichristian_a as_o mr._n brooks_n say_v it_o will_v follow_v that_o it_o be_v unlawful_a do_v you_o not_o now_o justify_v all_o that_o i_o have_v say_v viz._n if_o the_o first_o reformer_n be_v ordain_v by_o antichristian_a minister_n that_o then_o it_o follow_v that_o their_o ordination_n be_v a_o nullity_n and_o that_o till_o they_o be_v ordain_v again_o they_o all_o of_o they_o preach_v without_o ordination_n from_o christ_n thus_o the_o reader_n may_v see_v that_o rather_o than_o you_o will_v want_v a_o arrow_n to_o shoot_v at_o m._n brooks_n you_o will_v borrow_v one_o out_o of_o my_o quiver_n and_o you_o do_v as_o good_a as_o confess_v as_o much_o when_o you_o conclude_v and_o say_v that_o your_o heart_n tremble_v and_o you_o hearty_o wish_v that_o you_o can_v not_o plead_v so_o strong_o to_o sadden_fw-mi honest_a heart_n to_o please_v i_o and_o such_o as_o i_o be_o it_o seem_v then_o your_o conscience_n tell_v you_o that_o you_o have_v give_v away_o your_o cause_n to_o the_o grief_n of_o yourself_o and_o other_o because_o you_o can_v not_o help_v it_o and_o therefore_o you_o wish_v hearty_o that_o you_o can_v not_o plead_v so_o much_o to_o please_v such_o as_o i_o be_o so_o that_o it_o seem_v you_o be_v now_o force_v to_o yield_v to_o your_o own_o grief_n and_o other_o of_o your_o friend_n which_o you_o call_v honest_a heart_n etc._n etc._n it_o seem_v then_o the_o truth_n be_v too_o strong_a for_o you_o but_o to_o proceed_v you_o come_v now_o to_o make_v counter-query_n upon_o my_o 42_o 43_o 44_o and_o 45_o query_n that_o be_v ground_v upon_o mr._n willes_n his_o decry_v the_o fifth-monarchy-man_n as_o the_o smoke_n of_o the_o bottomless_a pit_n to_o this_o i_o have_v already_o give_v answer_n and_o to_o the_o counter-query_n you_o propound_v upon_o my_o 46_o question_n touch_v mr._n willes_n his_o discourse_n with_o i_o in_o private_a i_o have_v already_o answer_v in_o my_o reply_n to_o m._n willes_n his_o letter_n and_o for_o your_o counter-query_a that_o you_o make_v upon_o my_o 47_o question_n about_o mr._n willes_n his_o persuade_v a_o gentleman_n to_o apprehend_v i_o for_o a_o jesuit_n though_o you_o say_v i_o be_o too_o blame_v to_o receive_v a_o information_n from_o one_o man_n etc._n etc._n sure_o you_o be_v more_o too_o blame_v to_o believe_v the_o accused_n bare_a negation_n but_o for_o the_o truth_n of_o what_o i_o object_n against_o m._n willes_n viz._n that_o he_o do_v desire_v a_o gentleman_n to_o apprehend_v i_o for_o a_o jesuit_n i_o shall_v refer_v the_o reader_n to_o the_o gentleman_n aforenamed_a who_o be_v ready_a to_o make_v oath_n for_o his_o further_a satisfaction_n and_o for_o your_o say_n that_o i_o do_v live_v a_o conceal_a life_n about_o london_n for_o many_o year_n and_o therefore_o there_o may_v be_v some_o ground_n for_o people_n to_o suspect_v i_o true_o i_o think_v there_o be_v more_o reason_n why_o i_o shall_v suspect_v you_o who_o be_v so_o conceal_v as_o that_o you_o refuse_v to_o let_v your_o name_n or_o place_n of_o abode_n be_v know_v i_o be_o sure_a this_o i_o never_o do_v upon_o any_o occasion_n in_o all_o my_o life_n i_o come_v now_o to_o take_v notice_n of_o
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you_o presume_v he_o mean_v only_o such_o as_o be_v church-member_n and_o be_v not_o cast_v out_o etc._n etc._n true_o either_o your_o church_n be_v all_o good_a or_o else_o you_o be_v partaker_n of_o their_o sin_n in_o not_o cast_v they_o out_o for_o i_o have_v not_o hear_v of_o one_o vile_a person_n that_o the_o presbyter_n have_v exclude_v there_o be_v another_o question_n which_o you_o propound_v to_o mr._n willes_n viz_o what_o be_v his_o own_o word_n concern_v the_o fifth-monarchy-man_n about_o mr._n willes_n assert_v those_o word_n touch_v the_o fifth-monarchy-man_n i_o have_v not_o wrong_v he_o as_o hereafter_o shall_v appear_v you_o further_o ask_v mr._n willes_n whether_o he_o do_v positive_o assert_v i_o to_o be_v a_o jesuit_n etc._n etc._n sure_o you_o do_v not_o think_v mr._n willes_n have_v so_o much_o to_o do_v as_o you_o make_v your_o reader_n believe_v even_o now_o that_o you_o ask_v he_o so_o needless_a a_o question_n for_o do_v i_o say_v or_o intimate_v that_o mr._n 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