or three yeares together in secunda Epist and Episc orient Hence also care was taken afterwards that none but Bishops should make this the Presbyters must not dare to doe it Sylvester in Concil Rom. Also holy Vestures for the Ministers to be used onely in the Churches many of ours never owned these Epist Steph ad Hil. all have cast them away Also in the Lords Supper the mixing of water with the wine which how ever some say it was because of the hot Countries yet Alexander who they say was the first that mixed water with wine Epist ad omnes Ortho. Apol. 2. doth not give that reason but because water and blood came out of Christs side In Justin Martyrs time it seemes this was their manner also but this was not the Institution Also we find severall Church-officers among them as appears by Gaius Bishop of Rome who ordered that all the orders in the Church must ascend from the door-keeper to the Bishop Ostiarius Lector Exorcista Acolythus Subdiaconus Diaconus Presbyter Episcopus The ordination of these Officers with their Ceremonies are after set downe in the fourth Councel of Carthage If the Decretals of Gaius be of any Authority all these were in primitive Churches before Constantine came to the Empire More things I might adde but I forbeare And though there were many glorious Martyrs yet all their Church-members were not such many did yeeld to the heathenish Idolatry when persecution began yea and there were foul sins among them Churches as Adultery Whoredome yea even among those who had beene Confessors as Cyprian affirmes ingemiscimus saith he to see it drunkennesse swearing and what not as any one may well gather who is but a little versed in Antiquity De unita Eccles and by reading over the Canons made in their Councels we may learne what they were troubled with As for the Ministers they also were ordained by Bishops though they were not such lordly ones as ours were with Presbyters joyning with them this no man can deny that knows any thing of those times whence then I am bold to affirme that if there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in those times even while they were under persecuting heathenish Emperours then there are true Ministers and true visible Churches now in England and if there be none now neither were there any in those times but I thinke no man is so impudent to deny that there were true Ministers and Churches in those times I plead now for many Presbyteriall Ministers and their Congregations So I have done with my second Argument which if I should draw into forme it runnes thus If there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in the first three hundred yeares after Christ then there are true Ministers and visible Churches now in England But the Antecedent is true ergo the consequent is true Some we have that dote they tell us they expect men to be sent from God and endued with extraordinary gifts as were the Apostles c and these are the men who shall set up Churches and reforme us Good Lord whither will our vile hearts carry us if thou dost leave them These persons are not worth the answering but yet let me say a little to them and so passe on to the chiefe thing I intend For the gift of Tongues I need not speake what is necessary God hath given to most and many excell in that gift For Miracles I They were given but for that time to help on the worke of the Ministry as sauce doth meat but now if God doth that by the Ministry of his Servants without Miracles which he did then by the Ministry accompanied with Miracles viz. Convert Edifie Formalize c. this doth but more confirme our Ministry and prove that God ownes these despised Ministers The plaine word preached hath made as good Christians as preaching and Miracles 2 If any Body hath need of the gift of Miracles then Master Eliot in New England hath who now preaches to the Indians and others with him but God carrieth on his worke amongst the Indians without miracles 3 Doe not you your selves beleeve the Scriptures to be the Word of God if so what need have you of such kinde of persons so gifted The greatest Miracle which I desire to confirme me in the truth of the Scriptures is to finde the power of Christ his Death and Resurrection in my heart without which I care not for miracles But enough for these There are others who having been Members of an Independent Church where divisions have fallen out and so have broke in peeces they have said that Ministers are not fitted with a spirit of Government to keep Churches in order and therefore these are not times as yet for such Reformation I answer 1 The more shame for your Church-Members who are of such proud and turbulent spirits that godly and able Ministers are not able enough to governe them those who come into Church Communion with the awe of God upon their hearts we can governe them some such spirits we finde among the Independents but if we could see more it would be better 2 I wonder not at your Divisions when I see what Principles some godly Congregationall men have gone by for the ordering of their Church Government 3 Your Argument is as strong against the Apostles for there were Heresies and Schismes in their dayes But I leave these and return to that from whence I have made a digression Having then proved there are true Ministers and Churches in England let us examine the grounds why these men separate from these Ministers and Churches I conceive their grounds may be referred to one of these heads Either to The Ministers Either to Or Worship Either to Or the Congregation Either to Or the place of meeting If there be any thing else that cannot so well be reduced to one of these yet I am sure I shall meet with it before I have done For the Ministers they are indeed made the Dung of England who are more scorned then they especially the Presbyteriall men be they never so holy or learned Whether there be just cause in respect of men I leave it to God to judge I am sure when Ministers were in honour we found the Word had good effect but since they came to be thus scorned little good hath been done I deny not but God may have a just quarrell against us and give me leave without offence to propound the Reasons why 1 The first I had rather conceale because I should seem to spy out a mote in my Fathers and Brethrens eyes when I have a beame in my owne but therefore I rather propound it as I heard it from a Reverend and judicious Divine a man of a gracious and moderate spirit Mr. Nathaniel Rogers in New England I was talking with him there when the newes came of the Covenant that England and Scotland entred into the thing pleased him and all our
questioned till our Separatists rose up who are not comparable to them in parts or holinesse 2 I pray what doe you make of those Ministers who were ordained in the Primitive Churches Cyp. Epis 33 they were ordained in Cyprians time by Bishops and Presbyters and by Hieroms time the Bishops had ingrossed that power into their owne hands as appeares by that speech of his Excepting Ordination Epist ad Evagr. what doth a Bishop that a Presbyter doth not so that by this time it should seeme that the Presbyters were turned out and the Bishops only Ordained It is possible this might be but in some Churches for the fourth councell of Carthage ordered That no Bishop should Ordaine without the councell of his Clergy Can. 22. Can. 3. Now what were these no Ministers Anti-christ was not yet got into his Seat for the yeares of his reigne had been expired before this time It is strange that those should be no true Ministers who lived so neare the Apostles times and under persecution also as in Cyprians time neither was Cyprian surely the first Bishop that did Ordaine for there were Bishops before him yea besides this Ordination by Bishops we finde the Papists contending strongly for strange Rites which they use in Ordination and they say they were also used in those Primitive times for the anointing of the hands of the Presbyter that is ordained this they would prove from Cyprian or at least the Author of The Card. worke of Ch. who shou ld seeme to be as old as Cyprian also from Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 10. c. 4. which place would seeme to favour it and others there are whom they quote See Greg. De Val. to 4. d. 9. q. 5. Also for the shaving of the heads of their Ministers this we finde indeed in August time Ep. 26. Ep. 147. And this Calvin himselfe doth not deny to have been used then and gives the reason why it was used which Greg. de Val. scornes and gives other reasons To. 4. D. 9. q. 5. p. 3. If the Decret Epistles of Anicetus be of any Authority we shal finde it in his days long before Augustin and I wonder that Greg. Val. doth not quote him I am apt to think being they were so prone to Ceremonies in other Ordinances that something was added to this also Iust l. 4. c. 19 Sect 27. and I marvel that in the fourth Councell of Carthage where they set down their rites in Ordinations of other officers and some very ridiculous that the ordination of Presbyters should be the most pure but still with Bishops as well as Presbyters which is the thing now in hand 3 A Bishop if you consider him meerly as a Bishop was but a Minister and set apart to doe the worke of a Minister the same which all other Ministers may doe Bishops did Pray Preach Baptize administer the Lords Supper Ordaine Suspend Excommunicate and these things other Ministers doe and may doe that he did lift up himselfe above other Ministers that was his errour that he would take upon him the sole power of Ordination and Excommunication this was his errour but as the addition of an human invention did not null the Ordinances as suppose only growne persons had been baptized and that by dipping and after dipping they had been signed with the signe of the Crosse would this have nulled the Ordinance in the Anabaptists esteeme no more this usurpation of the power of administring these Ordinances did null a Bishop so as he was no Minister the Ordinances were and are Christs institutions Indeed you may call him an Over-growne Presbyter but a Presbyter 3 Ep. Ioh ver 10. Diotrophes loving of pre-eminence did justly deserve reproofe and John did no doubt deale with him but yet for present did not deny him to be a Minister though a corrupt one for the sole power of Ordination they tell us It is the order of the Church of England as of the Councell of Carthage that when a Presbyter is Ordained all the Presbyters that are present shall lay hands As for the sole power of Excommunication though it was an errour grosse enough yet by the 17. Canon Concil Sardic Ofius who was the cause of that Ganon being made was also at the Councel of Nice it should seeme the Bishops by that time had got that power to excommunicate alone which Canon provides a remedy for a person wrongsully excommunicated by his Bishop to got releefe by Appeales now if that corruption had got in so early long before Anti-christ had got to his Seat no wonder though it was found among our Bishops yet I hope they were true Ministers whom they Ordained As a Bishop was a Lord Bishop his Lordship was but a meere civill addition annexed to the Bishoprick by Regallfavour his Lordship was no ingredient into Ordination 4 The Lawes of this Realme doe account nothing Divine in a Bishop but his being a Presbyter Lond. vind 125. Dr. Seam answ to Diat p. 85. and therefore the Parliament in their Ordinance for Ordination tels us that they did ordaine as Presbyters not as Bishops much lesse as Lord Bishops yea I have heard a reverend Minister now Pastor of a Congregationall Church in Essex say that when the Bishop ordained him he told him I doe ordaine you as I am a Presbyter 5 The Ministers of England are ready to acknowledge those defects and corruptions which did cleave to their entring into the Ministry by the Bishops heare their owne words London Vindica p. 124. We doe not deny but that the way of Ministers entring into the Ministry by the Bishops had many defects in it for which they ought to be humbled but we adde that notwithstanding all the accidentall corruptions yet it is not substantially and essentially corrupted They acknowledge then the errour and desire to be humbled for it what more would you have God will accept of this I doubt not and why not you How to mend Dr. Seamans Divinity I know not where you have also the errour acknowledged implicitely for it is in answer to this Objection then giving his judgement in the case When sinne cleaves to the manner of Calling Answer to Diat p. 85. through the generall errour or corruption of all sorts of people who are concerned in it c. it is nototherwise to be invalidated here below then by doctrinall Censure and Repentance and not by iteration Repentance through Christs Bloud doth take away corruption out of Gods fight and will it not when they are so ingenuous out of your sight 6 There is a maxime taken up among the Independents Many may truly beare the name yea they owne it and practise accordingly yea and others and it goeth for as good Divinity as any the Gospel hath viz. That errours in Non-fundamentals must be borne withall in Churches we must labour indeed to convince people of such but if they will not be so convinced we must not
then I desire no more if they were so farre Ministers as to administer Baptisme to you then they may well administer Ordination to us renounce therefore the Baptisme you had by them so I am sure you cannot ordaine and when you are regularly re-baptised and can warrant your Act and prove that you have the power to Ordaine then we will listen to you For my owne Ordination it was in the face of my people the day was spent in fasting and Prayer those who carried on the worke were Mr. Dan. Rogers Mr. Marshall Mr. Ranew with other godly Ministers who joyned with them in the imposing of hands the Ministers lived about me I never saw that Ordinance carried on with more solemnity in my life the people shewed their election by suffrage holding up their hands all was done according to the Pattern but yet I am a man as much scorned as other men who were Ordained by Bishops I can submit to God in that scorne that these cast upon me for I deserve it at his hands only there was a foule errour committed at my Ordination and it is told up and downe by some of this kinde against whom I write and I pray what is it This The Ministers imposed hands in my Ordination this hath been talked of as a strange thing but let me answer for the Ministers it was no errour much lesse such a great one as you make it 1 If private men Carpenters and Taylors may impose hands why may not Ministers but the former have done it Ergo. 2 All the Ordinations that ever I saw in New England were performed with imposition of hands I have seene Deacons ordained thus 3 If you be wiser then the Elders in New England Answ to the 32. que p. 67. Survey of Church Dise p. 2. p. 74. and Master Hooker then over-throw them for they conceive it nearest to the institution 4 If you observe the examples in the New Testament which are our Guides in Church affaires we shall finde Ordinations have been thus performed as Acts 6.6 Act. 13.3 1 Tim. 4.14 1 Tim. 5.22 Heb. 6.2 Laying on of hands Which place by Classicall men Congregationall men and Separatists is interpreted of Ordination I doe not here bring in the practise of Churches in former times because I intend not to handle the controversie Whether imposition of hands be necessarily required in ordination but bring you in as many examples from Scripture where there were Ministers Ordained without imposition of hands as also the practise of other true Churches Orthodox and sound who doe Ordaine without c. or else be ashamed of your ignorance and charge not those men with errour where none was but a true following the patterne The substance and essence then of Ordination being this That persons qualified Ministerially be set apart or separated for the worke of the Ministry by persons in Office ordinarily it must be thus what may be done extraordinarily when no Officers can be had is another case the Ministers in England have that Ordinance for the substance and they have the election and consent of the people it is hardly to be supposed that every individuall person in a Parish will consent to every godly Minister but consent there is hence these two concurring to the Call which is the forme of a Minister many Presbyteriall Ministers are true Ministers I dare say more but I am sure now I save my selfe But I have not done with Ordination yet I shall meet with it once againe afterwards Let us now come and try the second ground for separation scil The Worship of God the fault here must be reduced to one of these three heads either 1 Because they cannot enjoy all the Ordinances of God in these Churches Or 2 Because the Ordinances of God are mixed with humane inventions that they cannot partake of them without sinne Or 3 Because here are other Ordinances set up in the Churches then ever Christ did institute I cannot conceive any more For the first Suppose it were so that there were a defect of some Ordinances is that a sufficient ground for separation Mr. Hooker saith no. If a Father of a Family wants a Rod in his house The preface to Survey of Church Discip is it ergo no family there may be some disorder in the house for want of good Government yet a family Divers Divines of great note conceive by that text Nehem. 8.17 18. That the Church of the Jewes did omit the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles almost the space of a thousand yeares the Arke was absent from the Tabernacle from the time of Eli to the time of David 1 Sam. 4.11 compared with 2 Sam. 6 17. and it was a great fault the Scribes rejected the Baptisme of John but where doe you finde any separation all this while that the godly should not joyne with that Church and partake in what Ordinances they had But this objection hath no place in these Churches for Prayer Preaching Administration of the Sacraments yea Discipline they had in the Episcopall dayes they did suspend from the Lords Supper and the Bishops gave the Ministers power but suspension is the lesser Excommunication and now to be sure there are none wanting at least should not be if the Ministers were not hindred in setting up all the Ordinances Obj. No say you the Classicall Churches have no explicite Covenant for the forme of them they will not admit it into their Churches therefore we separate I shal meet with this in another place only for the present disprove what Mr. Hooker hath said and the former examples I have given you but yet you will have a hard peece of work to prove this to be a sufficient ground for your separation as afterwards I hope I shall make good For the second Humane mixtures in Ordinances This indeed was the ground of the old Separatists yet in those dayes many holy and learned Divines wrote against the Separation but in these dayes that stumbling blocke is removed and this let me say that if you read over all the Church-stories since there was a Church upon the earth there cannot be found any example of such separatists as are now amongst us the old Donatists had their Ministers yea Bishops as well as Presbyters the separate Churches of later dayes had their Ministers and how strictly did they maintaine and practise all those Ordinances which ours laugh at as singing of Psalmes Infant-Baptism observation of the Sabbath and such opinions as those learned and godly men Mr. Ainsworth Robinson Johnson did abhorre are swallowed downe among ours so that these men cannot ground their practice from any example heretofore and as for the Scripture if they can finde any grounds there I must confesse I am altogether ignorant in the Scripture Suppose there should be some human mixtures though for my part I know of none are all the Ordinances so polluted preaching and prayer were kept pure in the Episcopall dayes
Separation Examined OR A TREATISE VVherein the grounds for Separation from the Ministry and Churches of England are weighed and found too light The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable but likewise so hurtful to the Churches that Church-Reformation cannot with any comfort go forward so long as such Separation is Tolerated Also an humble request presented to the Congregational Divines that since the differences between them and the Classical-Divines are very small they would please to strike in with the Classical-Divines in carrying on the worke of Reformation before the Inundation of these corrupt Opinions have destroyed both Ordinances and Religion By Gi. Firmin Minister to the Church in Shalford in Essex 1 Cor. 1.10 Now I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that yee all speake the same thing and that there be no Schismes among you Judicabit autem eosqui schismata operantur qui sunt immanes non habentes Dei dilectionem suamque utilitatem potius considerantes quà m unitatem Ecclesiae propter modicas quaslibet causas magnum gloriosum corpus Christi conscindunt dividunt c. Irenae l. 4. c. 62. Cavenda sunt autem fratres dilectissimi non solum quae sunt aperta manifesta sed astutae fraudis subtilitate fallentia c. haeteses invenit schismata quibus subverteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet unitatem Cypr. de unit Eccles LONDON Printed by R. I. for Stephen Bowtell at the Bible in Popes-head-Alley 1652. The Contents THere are true visible Churches in England pag. 1 There is a true Gospel-Ministry in England pag. 4. The grounds of Separation must be either in the Ministry Worship Congregation or Place of meeting p. 12 The Ordination of the Ministers by Bishops can be no ground for Separation p. 22 There can be no ground in the Worship being singing of Psalms is here touched p. 32 There can be no ground in the Congregation though many wicked persons be there Nor in the place of meeting p. 39 The Proposals of the Separatists what they would have are set downe and answers returned as 1 They would have Ministers lay downe their former Call and joyne with them then they it may be will elect them and ordaine them where this question is handled p. 46 Quest Whether election only gives the essentials to a Minister and Ordination be but an Adjunct p. 50 Whether the People have power to Ordaine p. 70 Whether the Fraternity be the first subject of the power of the Keys briefly touched p. 73 2 They will have an explicite Covenant which they call the forme of a Church p. 81 3 No Church-Members but visible Saints p. 82 4 Power in Admissions and Excommunications p. 83 5 Liberty to Prophesie p. 84 6 Liberty of Conscience p. 88 How it appeares that Church-reformation cannot with comfort proceed so long as the Separation is Tolerated p. 91 The Separatists are no such-friends to the Civill Power as is pretended p. 94 The Questions propounded to the Separatists in reference to their Separation p. 97 The agreements and differences with and between the Classicall and Congregationall Divines are reviewed their agreements found to be many their differences very few p. 100 Whence an humble request is presented to the Congregationall Divines speedily to joyne with the Classicall Divines backed with seven reasons p. 108 To the Reverend the Ministers of London the Authors of the Vindication of the Presbyteriall Government and Ministry c. Printed 1650. Fathers and Brethren THe goodnesse of God manifested of old to England in causing the Sun of his Gospel to rise early upon this Nation and to finde such entertainment in the hearts of the Supreame Power that it was the first Nation that ever received the Gospell with the countenance of publick Authority having the first Christian King that ever was is knowne to the whole Christian world his goodnesse in these latter dayes since he tooke from our necks the Anti-christian yoke hath been also wonderfull honouring the Ministers of his Gospel with such Holinesse Learning Ministeriall abilities and successe in their labour in converting many and setting up the power of godlinesse in this Nation that he hath not honoured any Nation more nay without pride it may be spoken his Free Grace hath not honoured any Nation so much in these respects as this English Nation but now in our dayes the Ministry which God hath thus honoured is as much dishonoured and that by such who cannot but acknowledge their owne mouthes have spoken it that what Spirituall good they have received it was wrought by the Ministry and now we finde scorning deriding separating from the Ministry and many not so much as stepping over their thresholds to heare them who were the first instruments of their good if they have any as some we hope have and yet the Ministers are the same they were before yea some repenting that ever they bestowed so much paines and time to follow the Minister as one that lives but foure or five miles from Dedham hath said He repented that he followed that eminent Servant of God Mr. Rogers so much to heare his preaching While I observed these things and considered into what a sad condition we are fallen and read over your Vindication in which I saw a holy meeke and true Christian spirit breathing calling upon the Congregationall men to joyne with you certainly I thought that Booke deserved a courteous Christian answer from the ablest of our Congregationall men what they have done towards it I know not being little acquainted with affaires abroad being locked up in much sadnesse of spirit at home but I thought with my selfe that being I was numbred among the Independents though I am the weakest and most worthy the holy Lord should turne me out of his holy Work laying other things together which I have mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader I resolved to improve the little Talent the Lord had given me in examining the grounds of these practices and to stand up in the defence of such Ministers who I saw were deare to Christ and whom in holinesse learning and abilities the Lord had honoured farre before my selfe And now my Fathers the quarrell is not only with you because you are Presbyteriall Ministers the quarrell is with the whole Ministry for this spirit hath infected even some in New England and I beleeve will cause more troubles there in those Churches then ever the Bishops did though they threatned them much What are the practices of some and what are the feares of the worthy Ministers there I understand by Letters I doe not I dare not censure the Congregationall Churches here some of the Ministers I know to be holy and reverent I wish I had such grace many Members no doubt are really godly but had I not lived in New England and seene the Churches there by what I heare of divers and what I know by some Churches here
let me examine what you say at present You will covenant together supposing your selves to be Saints first say you so are you Saints by calling how came you to be so what did God call you immediately No you must say many if not all of you who have any truth of grace by the preaching of the word what by those Ministers from whom you separate as no Ministers because of their Ordination hath the Lord so farre owned his despised members as to make them the instruments to bring you to be visible Saints fit to imbody or covenant c and are these now no Ministers are you the effect of their Ministeriall labours and they no Ministers Surely in this one thing you have overthrowne your selves but then you say you will ordaine him this I will consider in its owne place Then he shall baptize but since he did renounce his owne baptisme also who shall baptize him first you must have a Minister to do that to be sure he cannot doe it himselfe nor none of you for you are private persons to administer the Lords Supper before you be baptised is contrary to Scripture rules There was a report when I was in New England that a Carpenter re-baptised Mr. Williams In Iust Mar. time none received the Supper but such as were first baptised Apol. 2. Ius Divi. Apend p. 269. and then he did re-baptize the rest I do not stand to defend the thing whether it be true or no but it was like enough to be true and sutable to the other opinions and practises of that wilde generation Where are we now Fifthly that is very observable which the London Ministers have added in the defence of their Ordination That in this Church of England the corruptions which the Church of Rome would have introduced about Ordination of Ministers and other Ecclesiasticall affaires were withstood and opposed by the Kings of England Nor doe we read of any Ministers that were ordained by any Agents sent from Rome but onely some idle ceremonies of Confirmation or them that were ordained by the Pall and the Ring brought thence into England Thus far the London Ministers In the margent they have set downe the Authours that prove it Sixtly There might be another answer given by some who are good Historians which I confesse I am not wanting both time and such bookes so farre as I can goe I will That the Churches in England were at first rightly gathered and constituted it is not to be doubted Mart. 1. Vol. p. 237 last Edition the instruments of gathering being Apostles or Apostolicall men as is evident by Mr. Fox neither is it to be doubted but they did ordaine officers in the Churches for we read of Ministers and Bishops The land falling to the possession of the Saxons about the yeare 568. p. 147. the Story saith by them all the Clergy and the Christian Ministers of the Britains were then utterly driven out in so much that the Arch-bishops of London and Yorke went into Wales thus long then it seemes the Ministers of England had no ordination from Rome P. 149. this appeares also by Austine who came into England in the yeare five hundred ninety eight he about the yeare six hundred P. 153. assembled the Bishops and Doctors of Britaine so that still here were Ministers but where their abode was the story sets not downe but supposed to be towards Wales and charged them to preach the Gospel to the English-men and also that they should among themselves reform certain rites in their Church so that still here were Ministers and Churches specially for keeping of Easter-tide baptizing after the manner of Rome c. to which the Scots and Britaines would not agree this shews they did not depend upon Rome Afterward there was another Synod gathered where seven Bishops of Britaine were present and though we finde a great battell fought presently after where the Britains were overcome yet the Story doth not mention that the Ministers were all slaine there Now the thing I aime at is this that since there were so many Ministers and Bishops in England who had their ordination by succesfion from those Apostolical men and not from Rome and wee finde so many when Austine came why may we not suppose that these might againe preach the Gospel to the English-men though at first they were opposite when they had smarted for their folly and why may we not suppose they might returne into England againe especially into those parts neare Wales also those who were driven out as the Story saith they were suppose into some other parts might not they returne into England also must we take the words of the Story All the Clergy and Christian Ministers were driven out strictly so as none at all were left though latent c those who are good Historians may helpe here and it would be some answer to that objection of our ordination coming from Rome though unto me the objection is very feeble if this answer cannot be made out As for the Churches of England being rightly at first gathered Way of Ch. in N. E. Ch. 7. p. 111. as above mentioned Mr. Cotton yeelds it so as he saith That all the work now is not to make them Churches which were none before but to reduce and restore them to their primitive Institution c. To that part of the Objection They were ordained by Bishops I pray what doe you thinke of Master Bradford and the rest of those holy Ministers and Martyrs that were ordained by the Bishops in those dayes Cranmer Ridley Hooper c was he an Anti-christian Minister and all those Ministers who were then ordained though now they were scarce got out of the Popish Ceremonies c. the holy Martyrs then did never offer to separate from Mr. Bradford and the rest nor call them Antichristian Ministers I pray how many such Bradfords have you among you Not all the Separatists in England can afford such a one Christ cals him his faithfull Minister but you say Mr. Bradford is none cursed be that doctrine Now if those Ministers were true Ministers though they had an Episcopall Ordination then so are ours notwithstanding their Ordination by Bishops It is vaine to say those Bishops were godly men so were ot ours for it is a bold assertion to say that none of the Bishops since have been godly men no doubt there are divers in Heaven And besides it is absurd to thinke that the truth and efficacy of an Ordinance depends upon the truth of Grace in him who doth administer it as for Ceremonies if you search they were not cleare then no more then our Bishops were It is a silly shift to say They walked according to their light I hope there was the same rule to judge of the truth of Ministers then that is now it was not their light which made them true Ministers but the rule But the truth of their Ministry was never
subject for reciprocation cannot bee with them for Preaching Administration of Sacraments Government c. to be sure the people cannot doe there will be more said for the Presbytery they actually choose they actually admit they actually govern and exercise discipline they have both the Power and the Act but for the people they cannot doe any Act which belongs to the Officer nor have so much as the power of it we may see by this where the power will cheifly reside to say the Fraternity though they have not officiall power yet they have power to chuse an Officer and so consequently they are the first subject this is very unsatisfactory to have the Adjunct reciprocated at the second hand it being denyed before that they have the Adjunct the reciprocation betweene homo animal risibile is not at second hand 2 This doth not at all shake me but I stand on my ground still conceiving that the Church or ganized is the first subject of the power of the Keyes not that I make the people equall sharers in the power of the keyes with the Officers but what I mean I shall expresse afterwards 3 Yet am I not satisfied nor could ever be that whatever belongs to the Church must needs be included in the power of the keyes Election I look at it only as Potest as circa claves but not to be a power of them The Text tells us the use of them what thou bindest what thou loosest to bind and to loose is the use of them but what is this to the election of an Officer when as hee may refuse their Call or the Call of any Church how doe they loose him or bind him Electio noncogit For the other two things Admission and Discipline Those Divines who say that Baptisme makes men Members of the Church if they can prove this strongly they will carry away the former scil that the people have nothing to do in Admission of members for baptisme makes members now to this I cannot yet fully agree there might be much said for the contrary I conceive the New England Divines have spoken well to this besides the opinion of M. Cartwright Ans to 32. Qu. p. 12. and Ames who joyn with them So those Divines who affirme the Presbytery may excommunicate renitente plebe if they can prove it strongly they will carry away the latter and then indeed its cleare the people have no interest in the power of the keyes but this neither can be admitted and the streame of Divines oppose this But though I yeeld the Ministry cannot orderly doe these things without the people yet I deny the people do these things in the same way and order that the Ministry doth them And therefore Quaere Whether it be proper to say the people hath any power of the keyes For Admissions this will be more troublesome because we finde no examples of the Churches where the people did shew their power in Admissions for that act of Paul Act 9.26 27. Whether it be sufficient to prove it I leave it to consideration they did not admit why they were afraid of him the text saith being a persecutor then no wonder the Apostles as well as the people were afraid of him the 27 verse saith Barnabas carried Paul to the Apostles not to the people which would imply the Apostles carryed the stroke in Admissions Further to search into this let us suppose the Ministry of the Church of Corinth preach an Infidell heare them the man is so far convinced of the vanity of his Heathenism and danger of his sinful lusts he wallowed in and so far convinced of the necessity of that Doctrine which he heares that he renounces his Idols reforms his conversation c. now he comes to the Ministers to signifie what is done and what he desires to be received into the Church and be baptized being willing to give up himselfe to that doctrine the Ministry instrumentally hath wrought this now what power hath the people here to hinder this man is it at their choyce whether they will admit him or no when the Officers see what effect the preaching hath had here being a Disciple made shal they be hindred from baptizing him what power have the people here what shall they goe first and examine him I know not where examination was ever given to the people must he make his profession of faith before all the Church as Victorinus that brave Rhetorician Aug. Con fes l 8. c 2. we find it was not their course to doe so with all those whom they admitted for many did onely to the Presbyters This power indeed the brethren have that if any know this man to live in a known way of wickednesse that cannot possibly stand with any hopes of faith to come and give in witnesse against such a person to the Officers I suppose this will be yeelded and the Officers would not now baptize him But what power more they have I know not they see his conversation and can testifie of that but it were strange that it should be left to the peoples choyce whether they will admit a man or not when the word hath had so much power and they cannot bring in sufficient objections to the contrary Put case the major part of the members of the Church had drunk in some errors that a major part may do so hath been proved in our time and they will not give their consent to the admission of the man if they finde him not of their opinion commonly those who have drunke in error use to look untowardly upon those who are contrary now the Ministers have no power to admit this man nor baptize him though they see he hath right to it But I leave that For Discipline I conceive renitente plebe the Eldership should not excommunicate it is in vaine to doe so indeed if the people will hold communion but yet this doth not argue that the people doe here act as doth the Eldership For the Eldership doth it Authoritativè the people by a popular consenting with the Officers that the person bee excommunicate the people doe act here obedientially to their Officers therefore a vaste difference is betweene them I remember a passage of Mr. Hookers in the Assembly of Divines When a case is brought to the Elders the Elders having searched all things to the bottome now the Elders bring the case to the Fraternity and lay it down clear before them this is the case and this ought to be done now said he the people are bound to obey us as well as when wee preach And it is cleare for as in preaching they discover the minde of God so in this sentence they declare the same concerning this act Keyes 15 2 Cor. 10.6 We have in readinesse to revenge all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled Mr. Cotton saith the Apostles revenge of disobedience by way of reproofe in preaching doth not follow the peoples obedience but