Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	bishop_n	ordination_n	presbyter_n	9,874	5	10.5221	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A84686	The great interest of states & kingdomes. The second part. A sermon preached on a publike thanksgiving, on the 12th. of May, 1646. at Botolphs Alders-gate: and after (upon the desire of some friends) enlarged at Pauls Church in Covent-garden, on the Lords Day, May 17th. 1646. / By Simon Ford, minister of the Gospel at Puddle-Towne in Dorcet-shire.	Ford, Simon, 1619?-1699.	1646 (1646)	Wing F1487; Thomason E356_1; ESTC R19643	34,887	43

are our Ministers true Ministers or no No saith he for they have not a calling from the universall Bishop And how say you now Master Anabaptist are our Ministers true Ministers or no No saith he for they are sent by the Pope of Rome and so Anti-christian Friends agree among your selves what to object and we wil answer you both together or fall out among your selves and you will answer one another But sure as long as you stand thus opposite in your assertions one must lye and because the world know's not which they will cast the lye at a venture and truly speake it handsomer and call it aequivocation or mentall reservation and you are both too well versed in it to disowne it But I shall speake a few words to the cavill itselfe and but a few For I remember this is a Sermon not a Treatise To cleare The objection answered to the Parliament from their own Ordinance for ordination of Ministers bearing date Oct. 2. 1644. this particular the ground of my exhortation to you my Lords and Gentlemen I shall not need I will not thinke you have set forth any thing as the result of both Houses debates which you were not fully setled in Nor will I thinke you are so given to change as to disavow that now which you have in a publique edict acknowledged I read your sense of this Question in your Ordinance for Ordination where in the Preamble you assert That no man ought to take upon him the office of a Minister untill he be lawfully called and ordained thereunto that this Ordination that is an outward solemn setting apart of persons for the office of the Ministery in the Church by preaching Presbyters is an Ordinance of Jesus Christ That those who have been formerly ordained by Bishops seeing that action was performed by them as Presbyters with the Assistance of other Presbyters have an Ordination for substance valid and not to be disclaimed by any that have received it So that 't is the sense of both Houses that our Ordination as by Bishops the medium by which the Anabaptists prove us Antichristian is notwithstanding according to an Ordinance of Jesus Christ for substance and constitutes us Ministers of the Church of Christ and capable of giving a like mission to others What therefore concerns you in the application of the charge in my Text your own Ordinance fastens on you and I hope it shall never witnesse against you I perswade my selfe seeing you acknowledge us Ministers of Jesus Christ and so Gospell Prophets to you I have not misapplyed To you Citizens and fellow Brethren I shall speake as concisely To the rest too as is possible If you are converted to Christ and not to opinion you must needs come within the reach of the Apostles Argument If these Ministers be not Apostles to others yet they Discovering the undutifuness of the objectors most of them in so ob●ecting Questioning the consequēce of the argument are to you For most of you are begotten by their Gospell and I hope no dutifull sonne will charge his Father with illegitimation To others who thus argue our Ministery is derived from Antichrist that is in their meaning from Bishops installed by him and 't is therefore Antichristian although the consequence of that Argument be justly obnoxious for 't is not being derived from persons having an Antichristian power that makes a thing Antichristian unlesse it can be proved that the thing so derived is derived by that Antichristian power the same persons may act by a double power a legall and an usurped power now 't is not argument enough to prove this or that act they doe is an illegall act because done by one that usurps an illegall power because such a person that hath a legall power too may as well act by it and this is in effect the Argument of the Parliament in the Ordinance before quoted yet I passe this And answer The Antecedent cannot be proved and 't is only an affirmation Questioning the Antecedent upon good grounds that our Ministery though consecrated by Bishops was derived from Antichrist And it may be probable enough and as probable I am sure as any thing they can bring to the contrary which is enough to invalidate this Argument that though for some ages past it were granted that Bishops invested by Popes have been the Ordainers and the Ministery hath had its succession from them that there vvas Christianity in England long before Popery and the Ministery then may be said to be derived from beyond Popery and ' t vvill be questionable vvhether even those Popish Bishops did all or any of them originally receive their Presbytership from Rome or from that succession though they received their Episcopacy from Rome Besides secondly this Argument will cast as strong jealousies upon the calling of all the present Ministerie of all the Shewing what mischiefes this Argument involves Reformed Churches seeing Popish Ordainers have at one time or another interrupted the Order of Apostolicall succession and then it will inferre that at present in all and in most of 1 1. As strong a ground of suspension of all the Ministery in the Christian world at this time them for some ages there hath been no Ministerie and so no lawfull Ordinances and by the same Reason as farre as we know the extent of Christianity in the World wee may argue in like manner seeing Antichrist hath had his claw in every corner of it at one time or another as it is more then probable And so Christs Promise to bee with Teachers and Baptizers who must have a lawfull call to make them capable of that promise to the end of the World would at this time there being no lawfull called Teachers and Baptizers supposed in the world by this Argument be little better then concluded a falsehood Againe thirdly I know not what should stop these men 2 2. A road-way to Anabaptisme Seeking and that in infinitum from Anabaptisme or Sebaptisme if they be not infected yet or Seeking if they be that thus object For I take their supposition and thus argue either the Baptisme which they received from this Ministery was valid or null if valid they destroy their position that our Ministerie is unlawfull for no act of office as administring a Sacrament can bee valid from one that is not a lawfull Officer and I answer as the Father in a like case I acknowledge this Ministerie upon the same grounds upon which they owne those that are Baptized by it And they prove them lawfull Ministers by admitting those whom they have Baptized a A Luciferian is brought in by Hierome arguing thus Si Ariani haeretici sunt haeretici Gentiles sunt Ariani Gentiles sunt Si autem Ariani Gentiles sunt constat nullam societatem Ecclesiae esse cum Arianis i. e. cum Gentilibus manifestum est vestram Ecclesiam quae ab Arianis i. e. Gentilibus