remember saith the same judicious Author that the ancient and true Bonds of Unity are One Faith one Baptism and not One Ceremony one Policy And endeavour to comprehend that saying Differentia Rituum commendat unitatem Doctrinae Christs Coat was indeed without Seam yet the Churches Garment was of divers Colours The Presbyterian and Congregational Nonconformists do profess to agree in the main Doctrine with the Church of England contained in her Articles of Religion so as fully to embrace and constantly to adhere unto what is purely Doctrinal in them Besides the Presbyterians do not separate from the Church so as to set up Church against Church Altar against Altar but being thrust out of the Church themselves and the number of men and women dissatisfied about either some passages or Ceremonies in the Lyturgy so that they dare not receive the Sacrament in the way required in the publick Assemblies being very great they take occasion to meet for Religious Exercises in private for a time onely till a door be opened for them in the Church by the removal of some supsosed or real Corruptions in the publick Worship And the reason why some whilst they continue in the City do not frequent the Publick Assemblies may be this Because they are here by connivance onely and dare not be seen openly to out-face a Law But when they are in the Countrey they joyn with the Congregation where they reside protempore to shew their Union with the Church and Conformity to the Laws Nor are they therefore to be judged Schismaticks because they still hold internal Communion with all Christians and so with the Church of England with whom in some things they conceive they cannot communicate externally And there is not saith a Learned Bishop so great Conformity to be expected in Ceremonies as in the Essentials of Sacraments The Separation of the N.C. from the Ch. of Engl. is not total nor perpetual and a man may remove from his Fathers House it being infected with a purpose to come thither when all is clear and well again And their desire and prayer is still That they that went forth of their Churches weeping yet bearing good Seed viz. the Doctrine of Faith Repentance and Obedience to God and his Vicegerent may come again rejoycing bringing their Sheaves that is their Congregations with them Quest But is not this partial and occasionaâ— withdrawing of some Non-conforming Ministers and people from the publick Legal Assemblies justly charged with Schism Answ Hear what a Romish Doctor saith which is cited by Bishop Bramhal in his Treatise of Schism pag. 7 8. When there is a mutual division of two parts or Members of the Mystical Body of the Church one from the other yet both retaining Communion with the Universal Church which for the most part springs from some doubtful Opinion or less necessary part of Divine Worship quam cunque partem amplexus fueris Schismaticus non audies quippe quod Universa Ecclesia neutiam damnarit what side soever you take you are not a Schismatick c. Quest. Sith that divers of the Non-conforming Ministers had no Ordination but by theiâ— Brethren the Presbyters Can they be esteemed lawful Ministers Is such Ordination valid without Re-Ordination by the Bishops Answ Ordination by Presbyters without Bishops was adjudged valid by our former Bishops witness the Case of three Scottish Bishops consecrated in England in King James his dayes Take the History of it from Archbishop Spotsâ—ood who relateth the matter and manner of it â—hus A Question saith he was moved by Doctor Andrews Bishop of Ely touching the Consecration â—f the Scottish Bishops who as he said must first be â—rdained Presbyters at having received no Ordinaâ—ion by a Bishop the Archbishop of Canterbury Doctor Bancroft who was by said That thereof â—here was no necessity seeing where Bishops could not â—e had the Ordination of or by Presbyters must be esteemed lawful This applauded to by the other Bishops Ely acquiesc'd and at the day and place appointed the three Bishops were consecrated A. Spots Hist Book 7. p. 514. Dr. Field in his Book of the Church holds the Ministers lawful Ministers in the Transmarine Churches though ordained without Bishops and Dr. Thorndike in his Treatise relating to the Primitive Government of Churches hath so much charity as not to unchurch the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who have no Bishops pag. 202. The pious learned and famous Mr. Gataker never had any Episcopal Ordination but was ordained by Dr. Stern Suffragan of Colchester The Religious and Renowned Archbishop Usher in his Reduction set forth by Dean Barnard was of the Judgement that the Chor-Episcopi or Rural Deans might lawfully Ordain And this his Judgement was attested by Doctor Holsworth yea and very probably too by Bishop Brownrig and others of the Sub-Committee for Ecclesiastical Affairs in the beginning of the Long Parliament The Attestation is as followeth We are of the Judgment that the form of Government here proposed is not in any point repugnant to the Scripture and that the Suffragans mentioned in the second Proposition may lawfully use both the power of Jurisdiction and Ordination according to the Word of God and the Practice of the Ancient Church Quest But what great matter is it what the Modern Bishops or Doctors do or say in this Affair Is it not sufficiently known that Aerius is reputed an Heretick for this Tenet viz. For denying a superiority of Bishops above Presbyters And was not Ordination by Presbyters condemned by a Councel of the Ancient Church Answ Aerius is counted an Heretick for other Opinions also by Epiphanius for which our Brethren that Conform will acquit him of Heresie And the Reverend Learned and Laborious Dr. Stillingfleet hath given several Reasons why those Ordinations might be lawfully made void by the Councel in case they had been performed by a Bishop as because in another Bishops Diocess because sine Titulo c. Quest If the Presbyterians can be freed from Schism yet what can be said to clear them from the sin of Sacriledge either as Principals or Accessories Did not the Assembly put out Annotations on the Bible in those times and for fear of displeasing their Masters never meddle with condemning of Sacriledge Answ I answer The Notes commonly called the Assemblies Notes came out before the Assembly was convened and was none of their Act And this is taken notice of by some very considerable Persons in their Preface to the Reader before the Morning-Exercises printed 1659. â—n these words We have not without some regret â—bserved that the Large English Annotations in â—hich but some few onely of the late Assembly togeâ—her with some others had an hand are generally scribed unto the whole Assembly and usually carry â—â—e Name of the Assemblies Annotations as if done â—y the joynt Advice of that Grave and Learned Conâ—ention Yet further as to the places mentionâ—d in the Debate they were commented upon by â—e persons here mentioned That
whether there would be such a Reformation as their Consciences could rest satisfied withal if so they resolved to accept those Dignities but when they perceived things were to be setled in statu quo in the condition they are now they waved those places and preferments Might but Bishop Ushers Reduction have been admitted in the Government and the Ceremonies removed or but his Majesties Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs been made a Law they would have thankfully imbraced the offers that were then made them Quest What needs the removal of the Ceremonies be so much as desired of our Governors Are they not like those of a Master of a Family to his Children and Servants to come into the Parlour or Hall at such an hour to Prayer in the Family and to kneel there and he uncovered during Family-Prayers D. p. 106 107. Answ The Nonconforming-Ministers are very willing to come to the Church at the hours appointed by Law and there to stand or kneel and be bare or uncovered at the time of Prayers if such conformity may serve the turn But divers look upon the Ceremonies injoyned in the Liturgy as of another nature than those above-mentioned relating to Peace Order and Decency only namely as Rites of a Mystical or Sacramental signification and therefore have been rejected together with Popery at first by many of the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who yet we doubt not worship God decently and orderly and in the beauty of Holiness Quest Are the Nonconformists such a cross-grain'd Generation that it is the only way to bring them to Conformity for the Magistrate to forbid the use of the Ceremonies D. Answ I wish if his Majesty pleased tryal might be made in forbidding the Cross and Surplice the reading the Lessons out of the Apocrypha and the Old Translation of the Psalms oâ— David Quest Do not the Nonconformists hold that nothing may be done in the Worship of God but what is in joyned by him in his Word Deb. p. 101. edit 1. Answ They generally hold that nothing must be done as a part of Gods Worship nor as properly a medium cultus but they hold that the determination of meet circumstances necessary in genere is not necessary to be set down in the Word Vid. Mr. Baxt. his disputat about Ch. Governm and the Proposals of the Presbyterians to his Majesty Quest Do the Nonconformists Ministers hold the Church of England no true Church and the Ministers of it if Conformists no true Ministers and do they dislwade people from frequenting the Churches and hearing their Ministers setled in them Answ The Presbyterians have justified the calling of Ministers in the Church of England in their Jus Divinum Ministerii Anglicani they â—efuse not to communicate with the Publick Assemblies divers that sometimes keep private Meetings for Religious Exercises they and their Auditors go to Church also and joyn therein in praing and hearing and receiving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Quest Do the Nonconformists-Ministers hold all superiority of one Presbyter above another Antichristian Answ As to the Bishops of the Church of England invested with all that Power which they have and usually exercise in the Church of England without the joynt-advice and consent of the Presbytery we look upon them not as Jure Divino strictly but as his Majesties Deputies and Commissioners in Ecclesiasticall Affairs and since his Majesty is pleased to make them Lords can give them their Title and serve God and the Church under them Quest Is the Assembly in their Directory for Worship so much out in advising and directing Ministers to preach in the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit and of Power and are those Ministers guilty of error and presumption now-a-dayes who make this a petition in Prayer before their Sermons that they may be enabled so to preach See Deb. p. 5. edit 1. Answ The sense of the Author of the Debate and divers other Interpreter and the sense in which the Assembly and many other pious and learned Preachers use this Scripture 1 Cor 2.4 need not necessarily to exclude one the other Take Bishop Hall's Paraphrase upon the place My speech both in my private Exhortation and iâ— my publicly Preachings was not curiously plausible as if I would win with words of humane Eloquent and Wit but in plain and powerful expressions 〈◊〉 God's Spirit speaking in me and working in you 〈◊〉 me And the pious prudent and learned Bishop of Chester in his Ecclesiastes directing what kind of phrase a Minister must use in his preaching saith it must be affectionate and cordial 〈◊〉 proceeding from the heart and an experimental atquaintance with those Truths which we deliver adds this it to speak in the demonstration of thâ— Spirit and of Power Besides the learned Dâ— Hammond tells us in his Comment on the New Testament that divers places in the Old-Testament are said to be fulfilled in the New bâ— way of Accommodation And why may not this Scripture be used by Ministers by way of Accommodation also Do not the Sons of the Church pray for the Clergy of England as for God's own Tribe the Tribe of Levi Besides if you seriously consider the Context you may see cause not wholly to reject the other interpretation namely that of Mr. Dixon in loc Demonstrativâ— nibus Scriptura solida Veritatis quibus Spiritâ— potenter se exerebat operabatur in vestris animis Quest Do the Nonconforming-Ministers pre-end now to pray by the Spirit as if the Holy-Ghost should immediatly infuse method matter and words whilst they pray Answ Mr. Hollingworth sometime a prime Presbyterian in Lancashire shall answer for them They do not hold that they ought not to take bought before-hand what they should pray expecting that the Holy-Ghost should immediately inspire them with method matter and words of Prayer who ever said it was not they that prayed but the Holy-Ghost praying in them And yet in this duty as well as in others the Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God which is a Spirit of Grace and Supplication and because we know not what to ask he helpeth our infirmities and we may be said to pray in the Spirit not onely because the holy Spirit doth stir up warm and enlarge our affections in prayer but be brings oft times to our remembrance the savory and suit able phrases and passages of holy Writ especially the promises which are most pertinent to our purpose Why should any imagine that the evil spirit can have power to suggest evil thoughts or imaginations into us to distract and hinder us when we are praying and not the good and holy Spirit should suggest good thoughts and desires and that too in his own language I mean in Scripture-phrase and expressions bringing them at such a time to our remembrance Yea the Holy-Ghost saith that pious person restrains the petulancy and extravagancy of wit great swelling words of vanity vain bablings idle repetitions c. and he
Instruments of Cruelty are in their Habitations Cursed be their Anger for it was fierce and their Wrath for it wat cruel And we each one say O my Soul come not thou into their Secrets unto their Assemblies mine Honour be not thou united But let God divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel Mr. Bridge was not in Town then which may be supposed the Reason we find not his Name amongst the Subscribers As for W. B. whether his Writings be so faulty as they are charged to be in the Debates I cannot tell having not read them but a Conformable Doctor told me that he had searched them and that the Author of the Debate had dealt disingeniously in his quotations of him c. Quest. May not every whit as much be said for the Papists why they should be tolerated as to the publick exercise of their Religion as for Nonconformists Do not they profess all Loyalty to his Majesty and declare against all Rebellion Answ The Papists depend upon a forraign Power in Ecclesiastical Affairs superiour as they think to his Majesty And it was subscribed by twelve Bishops in Ireland as follows Their Religion is superstitious and idolatrous their Faith and Doctrine erronious and heretical their Church in respect of both Apostatical Whereas the Nonconformists whether Presbyters or Congregationists agree with the Church of England in the Doctrine of Faith and Sacraments differ not in any substantial part of Religion from her What the Papists practice hath been how dangerous to the Civil Peace the History of England in Q. Elizabeth's days can tell us That 't is impossible for any Nation to be free from Troubles or Treason so long as they suffer Jesuites amongst them saith Watson in his Quodlibets And that he and his Order were not so good and loyal as they pretended may be guessed from hence that he himself was afrerwards executed for Treason Moreover Papists cannot when they have power long live without persecuting Protestants saith a Reverend Doctor Hence may appear that we see K. H. III. of France stabb'd and lamn'd because he would not persecute them enough So the Answer to the Papists Apology p. 21. As for Quakers they may seem to be the very Spawn of the Romish Emissaries proselyted by them but made more dangerous to Magistrates and all Civil Society by this one Principle that they hold viz. That they ought to be guided and to act not by the Scripture nor according to the command of the Civil Magistrate or Spiritual Guides and Pastors but by and sudden Flash or Light within them I am not satisfied to have a hand in the Execution of the Sanguinary Laws against Papists yet should be loth to try how Sanguine or good natur'd they would be if they had power in their hands to execute the Writ De Haeretico comburendo If we may say of them as they use to say of Fire and Water They are good Servants I am sure 't is as true That they are but bad Masters Quest How can we agree to live quietly with these Nonconformists Are they not so much divided from us in their Judgement that they divide from us in their Language also and in fine would bring all things into a Babel of Confusion Cont. p. 1. Answ The greater number of them I presume speak as others do and conform to that ordinary phrase Well I thank God If any when enquired of about their Health say I am well through Mercy they do but as the French Protestants do they are surely few in comparison that say so commonly and I do not remember one Minister that useth to say so they that do possibly have recovered from some sickness or escaped some danger which occasions them to use this expression But if you will be critical some think it a sign of a greater humility to say I am well through mercy than the other I am well I thank God However it is not so liable to exception as to say I am well y' faith as I have heard that some Conformists do although Bishop Saunderson doth not approve of that language in common discourse We do not hold it unlawful to use the name of God in our Salutations as Boaz did and can say and pray God save the King as heartily as your selves I know â—o Nonconforming-Ministers that hold it unlawful to teach Children their Catechism Prayers lest they should take God's Name in vain And yet I must have leave to say that a reverend Bishop doth reckon that we sin against the third Commandment by an irreverend and customary mention of God's great and glorious Name upon trivial occasions and a learned Doctor in his Exposition of the third Commandment makes it a duty not to use the Name of God but with great reverence See Dr. Pat. Catech. Quest Are Nonconformists most guilty of breaking the third Commandment in the main sense See Cont p. 4. Answ Mr. Case Mr. Edwards and the London Ministers cited by the Author of the Debate in his Continuation all prove they were very tender of the breach of an Oath desirous to keep far from it themselves and to save others with fear plucking them out of the fire and the present ejected and dejected estate of the Nonconformists may testifie that they are such as fear an Oath The Presbyterians are bold to say in one of their Papers to his Majesty That the Obligation of the Covenant upon the Consciences of the Nation was not the weakest Instrument of his Return As to your citations out of Mr. John Goodwyn and Mr. John Lilborne I say there lyeth an Exception against the Witnesses in the Case as I suppose you might say if their Testimonies were produced against the Hierarchy Liturgy and Ceremonies Quest What may be the cause the Author of the Debate is so fierce against the Protestation taken by the Parliament before the War and which his late Majesty excepted not against when taken although he was then at Whitehall Answ The true Reason may be this because the House of Commons put out an Interpretation that by the Doctrine of the Church of England which they promised to maintain they meant onely the Doctrine in opposition to Popery and Popish Innovations and did not thereby oblige themselves or others to the maintenance of the Discipline and Government If that had been in 't is to be thought it would have gone down as easily with men of his way as the Et-caetera Oath did concerning which the Historian gives us this account That some Bishops pressed it on Ministers before the day required to take it by the Canon and enjoyned them to take it kneeling a Ceremony not exacted or observed in taking the Oath of Alleagiance and Supremacy Full. Hist 6.11 p. 17. Quest What is to be thought of the Continuation of the Friendly Debate Answ It seems to be an unfriendly Continuation of Debate and Strife contrary to the Act of Indempnity and to be a continued breach of
Non-conformists as such yet I cannot but own my utter dislike of the Principles and Practises of some high Conformists or Hectors for Conformity namely such as prefer the Romish Church before the Reformed Transmarine Churches Arminius before St. Austine who judge Aerius a greater Heretick than Arrius who have more charity for those that deny the Deity of our Saviour than for those that scruple the strict jus divinum of Episcopacy and who can with more Patience hear a Dispute against the very Being of a Deity than about the taking away of a Ceremony that profess themselves the chiefest Sons of the Church of England and yet dissent from her Doctrine contained in the Articles Homilies and Liturgie and transgress the Laws of the Church about Rites and Ceremonies by going too far on the right hand or running too far before them and become Non-conformists themselves and breakers of the Act of Uniformity even by their extream Conformity These these are the Hectors I mean who when they have perswaded a man to strain hard to go a mile with them in Conformity will compel him to go twaine that are implacable Enemies to Non-conformists though peaceable and Pious and are no good Friends to Conformists except under the same degree of Longitude and Latitude with themselves Yea I may say that notwithstanding their pretended zeal ard devotion to the Hierarchy look on former Archbishops such as Grindal Whitgift Abbot as Puritans and would if they could Unbishop some of the present Bishops for Presbyterians As tor the Author of the Friendly Debate I hope better things of him and though he be a Champion for the Conformists cause and I differ from him in many things yet I must confess I do not look on him as one of the Hectors before described but I say of him rather Talis quùn sit utinam noster esset For I am confident that one of his parts learning and stile could easily make a Dialogue wherein the high Conformists should appear as simple and ridiculous as he hath made the Non-conformists My Petition my humble and hearty Petition is to the Fathers of the Church the most Reverend the Archbishops and the Right reverend the Bishops and to the Sons of the Church our Conforming Brethren That they would manifest their love to Peace by their condescentions and desires of Union with their dissenting Brethren and that there might be by the means of the Governours of our Church their Mediation with His Majesty and the Parliament some such Laws made as might for ever take away the differences 'twixt them and those that are for Moderation that still hold themselves Members of the Church of England though not admitted to be Teachers in it And Oh! that it were in their hearts as many of them as hold Communion with the Reformed Churches beyond Seas to offer such Bill or Bills to King and Parliament as might enable the Bishops to receive all again into the Bosom of the Church and to the Exercise of their Ministry who besides taking the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy to his Majesty can conform to what is necessary in other Reformed Churches And my earnest desire to all Nonconformists is That they love and follow the Truth and Peace that they endeavour after Union and Coalition however that they avoid Schism and Separation truly so called And especially that they keep far from that dividing Principle To imagine a thing of it self indifferent to be therefore unlawful because commanded by a lawful Authority and also from that grand Crime of the Donatists that unchurched all besides themselves My Protestation is this That whereas the Author of the Debate hath offered us Nonconformists many and great Affronts hath made so many hard and desperate Thrusts or Passes at us and hard thereby forced us at last to Draw in our own Defence That if he shall presently cause our Persons or Weapons to be arrested or seized therefore He may never more be proclaimed for a Couragious Champion nor the Nonconformists posted for base Cowards If the High Sons of the Church have the Liberty and Priviledge to throw Ink in out Faces the Sons of Adam the Sons of Peace and his Majesties good Subjects may have we hope a Toleration or Connivence to wipe it off These things premised Since the Author of the Debate hath so vehemently charged us and put in a First and a Second Indictment against us for Irreligion Disloyalty Schism Sacriledge c. We plead NOT GUILTY And put our selves upon the Tryal of our Countrey which be You. The Contents Page EVery transgression of humane Law not deadly p. 3 4. Nonconformists better treated in former times p. 7 8. Nonconformists not Schismaticks or Sectaries p. 10 11 12. Ordinations by Presbyters formerly counted valid by 〈…〉 p. 12 13 14. The Assemâ—â—y men cleared from countenancing Sacrilege p. 15 16. Non-conformists offer to clear themselves by Oath from Peevishness and Obstinacy p. 17. Nonconformists not like Pharisees p. 17. How Conformists and Nonconformists may be Reconciled p. 18 19. What Reformation was desired formerly by the House of Commons in the 30th Year of Queen Eliz. p. 21 22. Nonconformists not so rigid towards Dissenters as is pretended p. 22 23. Nonconformists Obedient to His Majesty Declared against the late horrid Murder of His late Majesty p. 26 27. Nonconformists do not deprive his Majesty Ecclesiastical Causes p. 32 117 11 Of Conformists and Non-conformists Charitâ—â— p. 34 35 Presbyterians no Changelings p. 37 Nonconformists use the Lords Prayer p. 39 Why some scruple some old Words as Altar Priest c. p. 41 42 Of keeping Holy-dayes p. 43 44 Of the Surplice p. 46 47 48 Conformists differ amongst themselves in many things p. 49 50 Of praying that we may Preach in the evidence anâ— demonstration of the Spirit p. 53 54 Of Praying by the Spirit p. 55 66. Of conceived Prayer and Prayer â—â—â—â—ok p. 59. Of Afternoon-Sermons p. 62. Of Catechising p. 64. Of divers modes of Preaching p. 60 69. Of Conventicles p. 61. Of Experimental Preaching p. 70 71. Nonconformists Preach Obedience to Magistrates p. 72 73. And to the Moral Law p. 75 77 78. Some Conformists Dissent from the Doctrine of the Church of England p. 80 81. Of Absolute Promises p. 83. Of Good Works in the matter of Justification p. 85. Of the difference 'twixt the Old and New Covenant p. 86. Non-conformists not Time servers p. 89. Of Holy Conference p. 96. Of Stage-Playes p. 97. Of Mr. T. W. p. 99 10. Of Mr. W. B. p. 100. A Declaration against Vennor and his Confederates by the Congregational Ministers p. 101. Non-conformists more tolerable than Papists and Quakers p. 102 103. The old Puritans peaceable p. 106. Modern Non-conformists compared with those in Queen Eliz. her dayes p. 111. Unity may be where there is not Uniformity p. 126. Presbyterians no Separatists p. 128. Presbyterians rather to be satisfied than Papists p. 131 132. The Divinity of Non-conformists not
a Phrase-Divinity p. 138. Of Ruling Elders p. 141. Of the Use of Reason in Theologie p. 143. Whether Arminians or Calvinists come nearest to the Doctrine of the Church of England p. 144. Non-conformists not like the Donatists p. 145. ERRATA Page 6. line 10. for gage read gauge p. 35. l. 18. f. Antiparistasis r. Antiperistasis p. 36. l. 13. f. humours r. honours p. 37. l. 17. f. Btailas r. Brayles p. 42. l. 12. f. Christmss r. Christmas p. 43. l. 14. f. leave r. leave p. 50. l. 3. f. Rigidissimos r. Rigidissimo's l. 12. r. if more c. p. 79. l. 24. f. mediatore r. mediatorem p. 80. l. 29. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 93. l. 23. f. aequilibro r. aeliquibrio p. 117. l. 7. f. disquet r. disquiet p. 119. l. 14. f. Academae r. Academiae l. 19. f. ni sialiter r. nisi aliter An humble Apologie for Nonconformists with modest and serious Reflections on the Friendly Debate and Continuation thereof c. Question WHat Reason can be given if there be no guilt in the Nonconformists that no Answer was given to the Friendly Debate for so long a time Answ Bishop Bramhal that learned Prelate may be their Advocate in this Case I hope the Sons of the Church will not disdain to hearken to a Father of the Church Those who have composed minds free from distracting cares and Means to maintain them and Friends to assist them and their Books and Notes about them do little imagine with what difficulty poor Exiles struggle whose minds are more intent on what they should eat to morrow than what they should write Bishop Bramhal of Schism pag. 275. Besides if an Answer had stolen forth without License would it not have been arrested for a seeming breach of a late Act about Printing and the Author of it according to the Divinity and Logick of the Friendly Debate pag. 3. concluded to be neither a good Subject nor a good Christian vide Deb. pag. 2. Edit 4. Quest. Whit Answer then can be made for printing this present Answer and Apology Answ The Intent and Design of Laws is the Conservation of the Publick Peace The Law is Just Uniform and no Respecter of Persons whether Conformists or Non-Conformists but binds all to the Peace and Good Behaviour alike doth not hold one Mans Hands whilst Another cuts his Throat or stabs him under the fifth Rib. If a Man be once and again violently assaulted he may lawfully defend himself The Author of the Debate hath smitten us on the one Cheek and on the other also hath reviled us and with his Pen persecuted us and said all manner of evil against us falsly In this case a dead and stupid silence might argue we were verily guilty concerning the Crimes laid against us If a man that is Charged Indicted and Arraigned refuseth to plead the Law adjudgeth him to be pressed to death Our blessed Saviour himself Apologized for himself and his Disciples So did Justin Martyr and Tertullian for the Primitive Christians The great and soul Blots which have been cast upon our Names by that Author would not soon out if no means or endeavors should be used to wipe them off Quest. But is every Transgression of a Humane Law though but penal so culpable of criminous as is pretended Answ I humbly conceive not And there are thousands of good Subjects and good Christians many of them good Sons and Daughters of the Church of England who did eat Flesh last Lent or last Fryday asking no Question for Conscience-sake in reference to any penal Law or Statute in that Case and who have not scrupled to bury their Dead in Linen though contrary to a late Act of Parliament And if you lay so great a Burthen upon every breach of a penal Statute how shall the Carrier long keep his Cart on Wheels or the Citizen long stand on his Legs for want of Trading by reason of an Act of Parliament requiring the Tire of the Wheels to be four Inches wide under the penalty of forty Shillings for each offence Quest. Is it not therefore enough to satisfie the Law to pay the Mulct or Penalty required in such Cases Vide Contin pag. 22. Answ Mr. Perkins famous both at Home and Abroad for his great Piety and Learning hath amongst his Cases of Conscience this Case Whether Students in Colledges and Members of Corporations are tied to observance of their Local Statutes under pain of Perjury In resolving whereof he hath something useful and pertinent to our purpose He saith That Statutes are of two sorts Principal and Fundamental or less principal the first sort belonging to the Being of the Society are necessary to be kept under pain of Perjury As to the lest principal namely Statutes that are for Order and Decency the Founder er Law-Maker exacts not Obedience simply but either Obedience or the Penalty because the Penalty is as much beneficial to the state of the Body as the other that is as actual Obedience And in this Case he doth not charge the Breach of any Local Statute with the crime of Perjury And Bishop Taylor in his Rule of holy Living Chap. 3. pag. 183. saith thus As long as the Law is obligatory so long our Obedience is due and he that begins a contrary Custom without reason sinneth But he that breaks the Law when the Custom is entred and fixed is excused because 't is supposed the Legislative Power consents when by not punishing it suffers Disobedience to grow up to a Custom And I have formerly learnt it for good Divinity That every meer or bare Omission to do a thing required by Law is not a sin extra casum scandali contemptus provided it be not done scandalously and contemptuously or with offence to our weak Brother and in contempt of the Magistrate Quest What 's all this to the Case of the present Nonconformists Do not they scandalously and contemptuously break the Laws in dwelling in and neat London and holding Religious Meetings commonly called Conventicles Vide Debate page 2. Answ Many of them have taken the Oxford Oath and are legally qualified to live in Corporations Others cannot possibly live in the Countries for want of a Livelihood I have heard of a Reverend Minister that going abroad to seek maintenance from well-disposed Christians being benighted lost his Way and his Life both being through cold starved to death Others perhaps will plead they cannot live peaceably in the Country I heard one and a principal one say He never looked towards the City nor ever should if he had not been driven out of the Country The Law of Nature teaches the Hart the Hare and all Creatures that are pursued to fly to the nearest and thickest Covert or hiding place I have heard Huntsmen talk of giving the Hare Law I do not well understand Forrest Law but I believe this is not meant by it That she shall have no mercy
of Rom. 2.22 â—y Dr. Featly an Episcopal Doctor and a Reveâ—â—nd man a great Sufferer for his Majesty in the â—te times That of Ezek. by Dr. Richardson Biâ—hop of Ardagh in Ireland a person of great Learâ—ing and worth and that in Genesis by Mr. Leigh â—ho was Sub-Dean of Chester As for the Asâ—embly when they sat and acted as an Assembly â—â—en in those days they did dare to condemn â—â—mony and Sacriledge both as Sins against the seâ—ond Commandment as you may read in the â—â—rger Catechism and they cite those two Scriptures for the proof thereof Romans 2.22 Malachy 3.8 And as these were their Principles against the Alienation of Church-Means so they made it their business to preserve the Lands and Revenues of the Church from Spoil and Rapine The Bishops Temporalties were engaged foâ— great Sums of Money before ever the Assembly met and I never heard that the Parliament advised with the Assembly about the sale of them Yet this is certain that the Tythes belonging to the Bishops were kept unsold and reserved foâ— the Churches use and all the Dean and Chapters Lands left untouched even by that Parliament which if over any Was the Presbyterian Parliament until their Members were seized on secluded imprisoned and driven away bâ— the Army They were not Friends to the Hierarchy if we believe Dr. Heylin in his Cyp. Angâ— who designed the buying in of all Impropriations and if we credit Dr. Fuller in fifty year they would have bought them all in And in after times when great Attempts were made tâ— sell the Tythes and Glebe Lands it was withstood zealously and effectually for it was prevented under God chiefly by the means of the Presbyterians and their Friends in the City and Country To conclude will you have Mr. Knoâ— the Fore-man of the Presbyterians his Judgement about Sacriledge For John Knox as saitâ— Archbishop Spotswood 't is clear by his Sermons and Writings still extant that he held it a point of high Sacriledge to rob and spoyl the Church of Tythes Quest Is it not very pride self-conceitedness humour peevishness yea and very obstinacy that occasions their Non-conformity Answ Some of the Nonconformists of old and of late have offered to purge themselves by Oath from so great Crimes in the Case And others have in the Pulpit in their Farewel Sermons protested the contrary and that it was meet Conscience of Duty and fear of Sin which caused their Inconformity Quest Are the Nonconformists justly compared to the Pharises See Cont. p. 138. Answ No The Pharisees in our Saviours time were great Zealots and Sticklers for the Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion and particularly for mens Traditions and Humane Inventions were high Conformists themselves men in Power and Place in the Church and great Haters and Persecutors of the Nonconformists of their times Quest Can any man that is not either very simple or very scrupulous question any thing in the publick Worship in the Liturgy or Ceremonies Is not the Liturgy so perfect that nothing can be added to it or taken from it Answ It was not always so Time was and that but in the year 1644. when learned Mr. Chillingworth preaching before King Charles the First at Reading used these words At what time soever a Sinner doth repent him of his Sins from the bottom of his heart I will put all his wickedness out of my remembrance saith the Lord saith thus The plain truth if you will hear it is The Lord hath not said so these are not the very words of God but the paraphrase of men and by reason of the mistake to which it is subject I fear very often a pernicious paraphrase The Right Reverend the Bishops have done very well to remove this stumbling block at the beginning of the Liturgy O that they would go on to remove out of the way every thing that offends That the Lessons out of the Apocrypha-Books might be either exchanged altogether for the Canonical Scripture or at least reduced to that small number that was appointed in the late Scottish Liturgy where were appointed onely two Chapters out of the Apocrypha one out of Ecclesiasticus the other out of the Book of Wisdom That the new Translation of the Psalms might be read as well as of the Epistles and Gospels That the three Ceremonies the Cross in Baptism the Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament whether nocent or innocent night be removed out of this as out of divers other Reformed Churches by means of the Bishops Mediation with his Majesty and the Parliament on that behalf as was thought advisable by the Sub-Committee for Religion whereof the Bishop of Lincoln had the Chair and Bishop Brownrig Dr. Holsworth Bishop Hacket c. were Members Or at least that the use of them might be free according to his Majesties gracious Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs I wish that of my Lord Verulam might be always sounding in the Ears of the Fathers and the Sons and Daughters of the Church till they give ear to it That a contentiâ—us retaining of Custom is a turbulent thing as â—ell as Innovation Methinks 't is as possible for Nonconformists and Conformists to be reconciled â—s for the Church of England to be reconciled with Rome and yet that great learned Bishop Bramhal thought that not altogether impossible â—upposing saith he that something from whence Offences either given or taken which whether right 〈◊〉 wrong do not weigh half so much as the Unity of Christians were put out of Divine Offices which â—ould not be refused if animosities were taken away Bramh. of Sch. p. 280. To this let me add that Golden Saying of Mr. Hales in his little piece â—f Schism Prayer Confession Thanksgiving Reading of Scripture Administration of Sacraments 〈◊〉 the plainest and simplest manner were matter â—ough to furnish out a Liturgy though nothing eiâ—her of private Opinion or of Church Pomp of â—arments or prescribed Gestures of Imagery or Musick of matter concerning the Dead of many superfluities which creep into the Church under the name of Order and Decency did interpose it self Quest Is there any thing that can reasonably or modestly be desired to be amended or bettered in the managery of the Ecclesiastical Government or Discipline Answ The Rubrick before the Commination in the Liturgy supposes it desirable that the Primitive Discipline used in the beginning of Lent might be restored when notorious Sinners were put to open penance Is nothing amiss saith my Lord Bacon Can any man defend the use of Excommunication as a bare process to lacquey up and down for Duties and for Fees it being the greatest Judgement next unto the General at the laâ—â— day Lord Bacon his Discourse about Church-Affairs p. 32. And might we not say That it seems liable to exception that Chancellors and Commissaries and Officials persons not in holy Orders should have power of Excommunication I have read indeed that the French King hath the power of Excommunication but it may be
considered that a Christian King is mixtâ—â— Persona custos utriusque Tabulae and is oâ— Right supreme Governour over all persons aâ— well Ecclesiastical as Civil Besides it were 〈◊〉 be wished in reason by the Bishops themselves that the Bishops might not be control'd by theiâ— Chancellors and their Sentence and Order oâ— Judgment one day in Court be reversed or made insignificant by a contrary Order or Judgement of the Chancellor the next Quest But what 's the reason that now adayes their is such Alteration and Innovation in Worship and Discipline desired and laboured for Answ Divers things have along time even all along more or less been complained of as grievous and the Removal of them have been requested from our Kings and Parliaments almost ever since the Reformation Some of the Bishops and other men in great place have felt the burden of some things required of them Bishop Hooper would willingly have been dispenced withal as to some of the Episcopal Habits Dr. Sampson Dean of christ-Christ-Church in Oxford was turned out of his place for Inconformity Peter Martyr professor and a Canon of Christ-Church could yet never be perswaded to put on a Surplice all the time be was in Oxford The Commons in Parliament in the thirtieth year of Queen Elizabeth presented a Petition to the Lords Spiritual and Temporal for the Redress of sixteen Grievances The six first saith the Historrian were against insufficient Ministers The seventh That no Oath or Subscription might be tendered to any at the entrance into Ministry but such as is expresly prescribed by the Statutes of this Realm except the Oath against corrupt Entering The eighth That they may not be troubled for the omission of some Rites or Portions prescribed in the Book of Common-Prayer The ninth That they may not be called and urged to answer before the Officials and Commissaries but before the Bishops themselves The tenth That such as had been suspended or deprived for no other offence but onely for not ☞ subscribnig might be restored and that the Bishops would forbear their Excommunication ex Officio mero of Godly and Learned Preachers not detected for open offence of Life or apparent Error in Doctrine The thirteenth That the high Censure of Excommunication may not be denounced or executed for small matters nor by Chancellours Commissaries or Officials but by the Bishops themselves with the assistance of some grave Persons Di. Full. Ch. Hist Quest How can the Nonconformists reasonably expect any alterations and condescentions now for their sakes Did not they deny a toleration to the Episcopal Clergy but lately And did not the Elder Brother Presbytery deny to bear with the Younger Independency And were they not very severe and strict in punishing all Dissenters from their way See Cont. p. 124 125. Answ The Nonconformists of the Congregational way were then and still are for Liberty of Conscience and the Presbyterians humbly move for the like Favour and Liberty which others had in those days different as to Government from them in the like Circumstances They forbore the imposing of unnecessary things or such things as were doubtful in and about the service of God as terms and conditions of Communion with them Besides they suffered many of the Episcopal perswasion without ever taking the Covenant to enjoy places in Churches Colledges and Schools And 't is notoriously known That Dr. Wild afterward Bishop Wild Dr. Gunning and others had numerous Meetings for Common Prayer and Preaching at London and Dr. Hyde Dr. Fell and others at Oxford in those days As to the five poor men as the Author calls the Apologists they had liberty to preach and enjoyed the fattest and richest publick Lectures in London Give me leave to add too that the Parliament by their Ordinance allowed the Bishops 200 l. per annum for their Lives and I find in the Life of Bishop Morton that he had an Order to have 1000 l. out of the Treasury at Goldsmiths-Hall with which he paid his Debts and purchased to himself an Annuity of 200 l. per annum during his Life And a fifth part of Livings where the Minister was ejected for maintenance of Wife and Children And scarce any man in those days that was able sober and peaceable but might if he had pleased have Employment and a Livelyhood The Parliament made no Act for Banishment of them from Corporations forbad them not to teach Schools or entertain Boarders in their Houses imposed no Oath on Women that taught School to capacitate them for that Calling or else left them lialbe to punishment for so doing And although they made two Ordinances against the use of the Common Prayer I never knew one that suffered the penalty of them Quest Were there no Ceremonies imposed by the Presbyterians in any part of the Worship of God Did they not require men to be bare-headed at the reading of the Covenant and that they should all take it lifting up their right hand to heaven Are not these Ceremonies And is not an Oath a special part of Divine Worship See Debate p. 166. Ed. 4. Answ An Oath being an immediate and solemn Appeal to God and having something of Invocation of the Divine Majesty in it doth therefore require some Gesture or Postute that is naturally expressive of Reverence at the taking of it Besides the lifting up the right hand to Heaven Rev. 10.5 6. was that which the Angel did when he sware-Bring as good reason and as good a president fox all the Ceremonies imposed in the Liturgy and they will be more easily conformed unto Quest Are not the Nonconformists disobedient to Governours no Friends to Caesar Unpeaceable Refractory Hath not this been their practise alway and do pot they teach men so Answ His most Excellent Majesty had knowledge of divers of that way who were commissioned by him for the Review and Alteration of the Liturgy and his Majesty is pleased to give them a better Character in his Gracious Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs His Royal Expressions are these We must for the honour of all those of either Perswasion with whom We have conferred Declare That their Professions and Desires of true Piety and Godliness are the same their professions of Zeal for the Peace of the Church the same of Affection and Duty to Us the same They all approve Episcopacy they all approve a set Form of Liturgy and they disprove and dislike the Sin of Sacriledge and Alienation of the Revenues of the Church And now his Majesty hath so far testified for them their good Behaviour Hear them speak for themselves and that when they were in Council too T is the Duty of People to pray for Magistrates to honour their Persons to pay them Tribute and other Dues to obey their lawful Commands to be subject to their Authority for Conscience-sake This they teach as Doctors in Synod in their Confession of Faith and this they would have other Teachers teach all others in
the first ten or eleven years of Q Elizabeth and that some of our own Church are ready to run away and separate from us pretending we comply too much with Rome in some of our Forms or Ceremonies If if should please his most excellent Majesty and the Parliament to cause the Liturgy to be revised and some greater Alterations to be made for the better than was of late it should not offend but rather much rejoyce the Presbyterians I have read that the Archbishop of Armagh declared his Judgment when time was against the introducing of the English Ceremonies into the Church of Ireland And I have been told that the Right Reverend the Bishop of Hereford that now is upon another occasion expressed his Opinion to be That the further of we keep from the Church of Rome the better I might add this also which I had from a credible person presently after it was spoken That the late Archbishop of Canterbury was very willing to have had though a Liturgy yet one that might not be so much displeasing or dissatisfactory as this was to many I confess there are some well-meaning people who forbear to use the names of Altar Priest Christmass c. or to call Festival dayes wherein the Church of England commemorates the Saints and blesseth God for their example by the names of those Saints dayes yet they are not altogether without all excuse in this their Scrupulosity if we consider what a bad use they of the Church of Rome make of out keeping and continuing old words Let us keep our forefathers words say the Annotations on the Rheâ—ist Testament on 1 Tim. chap. 6. and wâ— shall easily keep our old and true Faith we had of the first Christians Let them say Amendment Abstinence the Lords Supper the Communion Table Elders Ministers Superintendents Congregation so be it Let tee keep the old terms Penance Fasting Priest Charity Bishop Mass Mattins Even song the blessed Sacrament Altar Oblation Holt Sacrifice Alleluja Amen Lent Palmsunday Christmss c. and the very words will bring us to the faith of our first Apostles and condemn these new Apostates their new faith and phrases If we consider further what is reported of Bishop Bonner namely that when he saw the Reformation and how many of their Ceremonies were retained being asked what he thought of it If they like said he to tast of our Broth so well they will eat of our Beef shortly I dare say the Church since the Reformation never intended any adoration of the Bread by our kneeling in the act of receiving and yet Bishop Hall saith thus I had a dangerous conflict with a Sorbonist who took occasion by our kneeling at the receipt of the Eucharist to perswade all the company of our acknowledgment of a transubstantiation It must be confest further that amongst well-meaning people some there are though scarce any among the Ministry who scruple the naming the Apostles and other Saints whether real or imaginary by the name of Saints and their plea may be they cannot see any sufficient reason setting aside the Authority of our Governors and the Custom of the Times and Places we live in why we should say St. Matthew and St. Andrew Debate pag. 64 65. rather than St. Moses and St. Aaron and why they should call David a Bishop in Wales St. David rather than K. David King in Jerusalem the one being truly a Saint and the Lords Anointed and the other canonized by the Pope Yet doubtless there are none so scrupulous amongst us but had as leave say St. Michael as St. George As for the Nonconformists-Ministers it was the practice of Dr. Thomas Goodwin as I am informed and was all along the late timeâ— to say such a Chapter or such a Verse of St. Matthew St. Mark St. Paul c. That 't is not alway necessary to mention the Apostles with the title of Saint for fear of sin in the Judgement of our Church may hence be concluded that in all the Collects for the dayes set apart to commemorate the Holy Apostles in there ate but two wherein they ate stiled Saints Quest. Do the Nonconformists hold it utterly unlawful to keep dayes in remembrance of what the holy Apostles Deb. p. 73. 1. Ed. and other Saints have done or suffered and had they much rather keep a day of Thanksgiving for O. C. his defeating his Majesty at Worcester than for Michael the Archangel his victory over the Devil and his Angels Answ Some think it impossible for a man without special warrant from God to sanctifie so that the service performed unto God upon that day should be more acceptable than on any other Some think the abuses of those Festival dayes are so great common and customary that if his Majesty and the Parliament saw good it would be better and more easie to abolish the Observation of them than to take away the Abuses which they think cleaves to them like the Leprosie in the wall of the house That these Feasts were of Apostolical institution or observed by the Apostles any except Easter is not so much as pretended unto that I read of Hospinian hath told us the Original of them to be of a much later date And as for the observation of Easter it self Mr. Hales is of opinion that it was an Error to hold it necessary to observe such a Feast and the Controversie about the Time which set all the World in a Combustion and were it not that both sides pretended Conscience in the case Hales of Schism p. 5. he thinks them all guilty of Schism he saith was a matter most unnecessary and vaine The old Nonconforming Ministers did use to take the opportunity of those dayes to preach in to the people Some Reformed Churches have no Saints dayes but only keep some few dayes Holy in remembrance of our Saviour or relating to the blessed Trinity So as I take it doth the Church of Scotland even at this day For my own part I think the Church of England is well justified by Mr. Perkins from Superstition in her observance of the Festival dayes she observes I can assure you there are that can observe a day to give thanks for the victory of Michael over the Devil which neither did nor could nor would keep a day to give thanks for the victory of O. C. over the King at Worcester or of Lambert over Sir George Booth in Cheshire As for occasional dayes of Fasting and Humiliation they have not been so much scrupled in the World by sober men nor may be so liable to exception or abuse as the stated Fasts and Feasts may and I think usually they are mote strictly observed As for the Nonconformists private dayes which the Author of the Debate speaks of if they keep them no better those that do keep them than many if not most do the ordinary stated Fasts and Feasts I think they may do every whit as well to lay them aside Quest.
Orthodox men not intending evil thereby have in latter times taken up this fashion yet they are generally to be blamed and have much to answer for their Nonconformity herein if we believe the Author of a late Pamphlet call'd the Converted Presbyterian Quest What is to be thought of Afternoon-Sermons is not that a thing wholly superfluous and would it not be better if as the Citizens and others have reduced their Families to one Meal a day so the Ministers would their Congregations to one Sermon a day and so have nothing besides Common-Prayer and Catechism in the evening Deb. p. 89. edit 4. Answ The Lord Falkland in his Speech in Parliament complained of some leading Bishops before the Wars that they cried up Catechising to decry Preaching Catechising indeed is talked of much but by many 't is to be feared it is to justle out the Afternoon-Sermon out of doors for we find in many Churches there is neither Preaching nor Catechising in the Afternoon Of old preaching was accounted praecipuum munus Episcopi the Bishops chief Work or Office Bishop Latimer was very smart against Unpreaching Prelates in his time but of later times the Lord Falkland in his speech in Parliament charged some of that Order that they discouraged and discountenanced Preaching that they preached not themselves and discountenanced them that would And not long before the Wars I heard a Friend a Minister that had been with his Diocesan who said That upon his quoting of Bishop Davenant to the Bishop in justification of something he said the Bishop replied WHAT DO YOU TALK OF HIM A PREACHING-COXCOMB Bishop Latimer Ridley Jewel c. were great Patrons of Preaching and themselves practis'd it Archbishop Grindal went so far as to countenance the Meetings called Prophecyings and Bishop Hall of late thought they might be profitable Former Histories did nor tell stories of any Bishop of the Reformed Religion that gave God thanks that he had not left one Lecture or one afternoon-Sermon in all his Diocess There was a Gentlewoman of good Quality cited a Kingly Preacher viz. Solomon in his Ecclesiastes for preaching in the Evening as well as Morning Eccles 11.6 In the morning sow thy Seed and in the Evening withhold not thy hand In the Country they account those Shepheards most careful of their flocks and to have usually the best Sheep who fothet twice a day The Apostle Paul exhorts ro be instant in season and out of season a Sermon in the afternoon can be but out of season 'T is observed that the Sermons at Court before Queen Elizabeth were constantly in the afternoon And I knew a Parish in the Country where it was desired by the good women That in case their Minister would preach but once a day it might be in the afternoon because they said it might be a meant to keep their Husbands out of the Alehouse The Morning Service according to the Common Prayer-Book being so long they thought a Sermon might be better spared in the morning than in the afternoon Quest Although preaching in the beginning of the planting the Christian Religion might be necessary yet is it so in these days Answ Preaching serves not onely to inform the Understanding but to excite and awaken the Affections and to bring to remembrance what we have been taught before Paul planted and Apollos watered even there where the Apostle Paul had first planted A good Stomach can digest two Meals a day and why may not a Soul of a healthful constitution have two Meals a Week I believe the Christians in Russia have never the fatter Souls for going in lean Pastures for two Meals I mean two Sermons a year Quest Would it not be good Policy not to suffer any to preach but onely to read Common Prayer and the Homilies Would not this be an effectual way and means to prevent Errours and Heresies Rents and Divisions amongst us Doth not this preaching sow many Tares in the Field of the Church Answ I have heard of some Preachers indeed who preach down preaching but I take them to be never a whit the better Preachers nor the better Christians for that I acknowledge the Homilies to contain wholsom and very profitable Doctrine and think I should spend my time better to heat one of them read than to hear some Preachers now-a-days But if ability to read the Book of Common Prayer and the Book of Homilies be all the Book-Learning necessary for a Minister 't is to be feared that some Princes or Parliaments may come before many Ages pass who may be so thrifty as to be willing to save the needless expence of a million or two millions a year in Church-Maintenance and think 20 l. per annum enough for men of such Parts Education and Learning Quest Is not Catechising the younger people in the afternoon a very profitable and a laudable practice Answ This I can say I used It for many years together besides preaching usually twice a day 'T is observed that the Protestants in the begining of the Reformation got advantage over the Papists by their diligence in Catechising and that since the Papists by their diligence the same way have got ground of us I am not against the use of the Church-Catechism for Children and do really think the Right Reverend Bishop Nicholson hath deserved well for bis Exposition of it But I confess I cannot approve of the Vicar that in his Catechising going about to justifie that Question What it thy Name brought that Scripture for it where 't is recorded of our blessed Saviour that he said to the man possessed of the Devil What is thy Name and he answered My Name is Legion But as for the knowledge of the Catechism if it may lawfully be done I could be glad none might be married before they give an account of it Quest. Sith preaching is so necessary what way of preaching is best The Jingling way or the Rational Philosophical way or the Rational Scripture way with Reasons out of Scripture and Testimonies from Scripture Answ I dare not commend the first way which yet I suppose was more practis'd in former times than of late Such as that was of Dr. Pl. on that place of the Canticles My Bed is green Typical My Topical Bed Tropical green Typical Topical Tropical My Bed is green Such as was that of the Doctor and Dignitary at Oxford about the lost Groat such as was the mode of the Wits about thirty years ago and such as was well expressed and exposed since by a Citizen or Countryman who being asked how he liked the Sermon and how the Minister preached Answered He could not say much of it but it ran or sounded thus as if he had said A Pudding a Pie A Pudding-Pie A Pudding for thee A Pie for me A Pudding-Pie For me and thee Nor do I look on him is one of the finest Preachers that lately exhorted his Hearers to put on the Sattin of Sincerity the Purple of Purity
not therefore that the Nonconformists of former times were better more peaceable more modest then these If any man though in the heat of his passion and in the heat of the War have called the Conformists Gentiles Uncircumcised Philistines Egyptians Babylonians the Brood of the Serpent and have denied pardon of sin and Heaven to them because of their Conformity I think he ought to repent of such hard sayings and uncharitable Censures of his Brethren and Fellow-servants and to bring forth Fruits meet for Repentance for the time to come viz. To lay a Law of Love and Kindness upon his Tongue and Pen as long as he lives 'T is to be hoped the number of those that had such unbridled Tongues and Pens was very small the instances you bring of such intemperate heats and irregular zeal are taken out of the Furnace of the late War and that too after the fire had been raked up in Ashes by many years peace and fully quenched by the Act of Oblivion and Indempnity If we had a mind to recriminate and retaliate we could repeat much foul Language and bitter reviling speeches by some of your way against us also But these are not the methods of Peace I desire therefore that all such matters may be forgiven and forgotten on both sides and remembred onely or chiefly by the Anthors and Abettors of them that they may if they have not already repent of them more than in Dust and Ashes Quest Did not the Scots in Ireland write to their Brethren in Scotland to send over Ministers to them in such language as if they thought there had been but little of Religion amongst them in that Countrey during the Reign of the Bishops C. Answ There might be many dark Corners in Ireland for want of Oyl to maintain Lamps preaching Ministers I mean such as should be like John Baptist burning and shining Lights amongst them The Scotish Presbyterians if they be like their Brethren in England had a Reverend esteem of Archbishop Usher and the Bishops of Ireland for the Irish Articles of Religion and their zeal against the toleration of Popery there Who or what was the cause of the scarcity of able Ministers except want of Maintenance and fear of the Irish Papists I know not but confident I am the Bishops of Armagh and Ardagh were not if any other Bishops Quest Have not the Nonconformists a high conceit of themselves and those of their own way and a low esteem of all others for Religion and Godliness Doth not Mr. Baynes say There is more of God and his Religion in some one Congregation of a silenced Minister than in all the Bishops Families in England And doth not Dr. Ames approve that of Mr. Baynes Answ I have heard that Dr. Ames had so much charity for Corvinus that he said He did not doubt but to meet him in Heaven Why then Mr. Baynes passeth and Dr. Ames approveth such a smart Censure on the Bishops Families I cannot tell Yet 't is not to be imagined that Mr. P. Baynes meant that the Bishops had no Religion in their Families If so I cannot commend his Charity I think this is a sure and clear truth That neither Bishops not silenced Ministers can be said to have all Religion or no Religion amongst them and their Followers I hold a Monopoly in Religion as unlawful as some have thought those in the State illegal Never the-less it must be confessed That the Articles of Visitation or the Injunctions of the Great Apostle St. Paul are Canonical A Bishop must rule his own House well for if a man know not how to rule his own House how shall he take care of the Church of God 1 Tim. 3.4 5. He that writes the Life of Archbishop Usher tells us That he had four times a day Prayer in his House that there was an hour spent in Catechising once a Week viz. every Fryday that he had on the Lords day in the Evening the Sermon which he preached in the Morning repeated in his Chappel by one of his Chaplains This was the way to have a Church in his House All Bishops do not write after this Canon nor this Copy I know a Minister a learned sober and zealous Conformist that after he had been with his Diocesan at his House or Palace to subscribe came home with a sad heart and professed it was not for any thing he had done but for the prophaness and disorder he observed in the Bishops Family amongst his Servants 'T is to the great commendation of the present Archbishop of Canterbury that which is reported of him That he keeps a good House that is in Bishop Goodman's Dialect he spends Church-Means in a Churchly manner And that he keeps a well-govern'd House allows not Debauchery if a Servant be drunk once there 's no place for a second Error If so it must be acknowledged that there is Discipline in that School where nothing saves but a primum tempus Quest Doth his Majesties Coronation-Oath to protect the Bishops and their Priviledges to his power as every good King in his Kingdoms in right ought to protect and defend the Bishops and Churches under their Government hinder his Majesty that he may not regulate the Jurisdiction of Bishops or remove the controverted Ceremonies out of the Church Answ Hear Mr. Geree one whom the Author of the Friendly Debate calls a discreet Presbyterian The King saith he is sworn to maintain the Laws of the Land in force at his Coronation and yet 't is not unlawful after to abrogate any upon the motion or with the consent of his Parliament The King is bound to maintain the Rights of the Clergy whilst they continue such but if any if their Rights be abrogated by just Power he stands no longer engaged in that particular If any Priviledges of the Clergy prove prejudicial or contrariant to the Laws and Liberties and Priviledges of the People which the King is bound to maintain the King may lawfully relieve his other Subjects by passing such Bills as may take away such Priviledges His Majesties Oath first made to his Subjects in general being lawful cannot be voided or superseded by his after-Oath to the Clergy And as for the Laws about Ceremonies they are not like those of the Medes and Persians unchangable but may be changed and the Rites and Ceremonies now in use may be abolished by the same power by which they were here established Quest Did the Nonconformists generally make Addresses formerly to Oliver Cromwel and Richard Cromwel Answ For my own part I never made any Address to O. C. or R. C. And the onely Address that the Presbyterian-Ministers of the City of London made to O. C. was for the saving the Life of Dr. Hewit As for Addresses to R. C. divers Now-Conformists at well as Nonconformists did joyn in them as they did also generally to General Monk for a Free Parliament in Order to his Majesties Restauration Quest Are not all
Unity than the Romanists and yet in several Countries they have several Rites Customs and Priviledges and in England before the happy Reformation the Service was ad modum Sarum and ad modum Bangor different in divers Churches Quest Is it not necessary to appoint the same Vestures and Gestures for the Worship of God to avoid difference and confusion Answ There is no Gesture or Ceremony prescribed in the singing of Psalms and yet People generally are bare and reverend in that exercise The late Canons in 1640. leave Bowing towards the East of Altar indifferent and would not have those that do it to judge those that do it not nor those that do it not to judge those that do it Now what greater inconvenience would follow if the same moderation and liberty to practise differently were used as to the Cross Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper If there must be absolute and universal Uniformity in the Worship of God amonst the Worshippers then all must alike have their Faces one way must wear all Garments of the same fashion and colour In the late Times when the Liturgy and Ceremonies were disused there were not a quarter of those private Meetings that have been since The number of them that separated from the Publick Worship were very small in comparison I suppose not ten to an hundred The Author of the Debate I guess and hundreds if not thousands of Conformists did not hold themselves bound notwithstanding the Laws for Liturgy and Ceremonies to absent themselves from the then Publick Worship and assemble privately that they might uphold Uniformity in Forms of Prayer Rites and Ceremonies Whence we may reasonably conclude That they thought Gods Publick Worship might be carried on without Uniformity in these things And again That the omission of things required by Law is not judged so great a sin as is by them pretended Quest Did not Presbyterians decry all Separaration and refuse to tolerate Independents See Cont. p. 224. Answ The Presbyterians both old and modern are against Separation They deny that they separate from you for upon occasion they joyn with you in Ordinances and if you remove some things wherewith your Worship is clogg'd they would joyfully communicate constantly with you The present partial and temporary withdrawing as to some Acts of Worship is not to be charged with Schism If you hold forth communion with your Church as in the Apostles days with a Liturgy sufficiently corrected without Symbolical Ceremonies without such Oaths Declarations and Subscriptions they will come into your Bosom though you not onely cast them out of your Lap but thrust them out of your House and shut the Doors upon them As we justifie the Church of England from Schism notwithstanding our Separation from Rome so the Nonconformists will endeavour to justifie their withdrawings in some Acts and for a time only by reason of the terms of Communion imposed on them That they are for Reformation not Separation may be hence concluded That in a late project for Peace and Agreement this was one Proposition given in by the Presbyterians themselves That whosoever should be capable of any Employment should profess to hold Communion with the Church of England and to the uttermost of his power to promote the Peace and Happiness thereof And when there was a difference betwixt Presbyterians and their Brethren commonly called Independents formerly there was a Conference before a Committee of Parliament betwixt them in which the Presbyterians as I am credibly informed offered either to give or take that is to say They would take the Establishment and allow their Brethren of the Congregational-way a well-regulated Toleration or let their Brethren take the Establishment and allow the Presbyterians such a Toleration And one of the chief of them when the London-Ministers waited on his Majesty at the Hague when discourse was about Ecclesiastical Affairs earnestly moved his Majesty that he would please to think of a way to indulge them a Liberty though they should not be comprehended in the Publick Establishment as it was then hoped the Presbyterian would have been In brief the Presbyterians disclaim Separation they are willing to have Union and Communion with the Church of England upon Christian and friendly Terms And they desire the like Liberty and Toleration from the Bishops that they were willing and ready to have shewed to their Brethren of the Congregational Way Yea they would bless God and our Governours if they might have the like Favours and Liberties that Dr. Gunning Dr. Wild Dr. Hide and others the Now-Conformists had in former times Quest If the Presbyterians are willing to conform to a Liturgy and to this Liturgy when sufficiently corrected yet what hopes is there that ever there should be any Alteration or Reformation of it which will satisfie or please them so as to use it Answ Yes there is such a draught already made to the great content of the chief of the Presbyterians and this done by three Reverend persons all Conformists And which I hope may be produced when ever Authority shall please to command it Quest. Would it not be accounted a weak thing to yeild or condescend though never so little if this might be a means to cement and soder us together again Answ It was the prudence of the ancient Church to satisfie the Joannites who had kept Conventicles apart from the Church for thirty years being disgusted at the dishonour done to John Chrysostom their Bishop or Pastor and this the Church did by restoring his honour after he was dead Socrat. Eccles Hist. Quest Why should the Church of England remove the Ceremonies which she hath retained since the Reformation May she not thereby disgust and offend the Romanists to please the Nonconformists which they call Puritans rather than Protestants Answ These Ceremonies were at first retained and continued when others were cast out of the Church in hopes to bring the Papists to a compliance with our Church But Archbishop Usher as he that writes his Life informs us upon occasion declared his Judgement concerning them That experience of many years hath shewed that this condescention hath rather hardned them in their Error than brought them to a liking of our Religion this being their usual saying If our Flesh be not good why do you drink of our Broth If the Church stick close to the Ceremonies she is not like to gain our Adversaries the Romanists to our Communion if she lay aside the Ceremonies she may gain thousands and ten thousands of our Brethren to our Church again That they may do thus God grant that the same mind might be in all our Bishops that was in Christ Jesus the chief Shepherd and Bishop of our Souls that they may love and feed their Sheep and be ready to lay down their lives for their Sheep and then their Yoak will be easie and their Burden light Or that was in the blessed Apostle Paul on whom was the
Care of all the Churches who professeth of himself I became all things to all men that by any means I might win some Or else that was in this Godly Archbishop Usher of whom 't is recorded in his Life That though he conformed himself yet he desired that his Majesty would not impose the English Ceremonies on the Irish Church saying If I had all mens Consciences in my keeping I could in these disputable Cases give Laws unto them as well as my self But 't is one thing what I can do and another thing what other men must do Since the Ceremonies be things saith our Church in their own nature indifferent and yet by some held superstitious and unlawful it seemeth to fall within the Apostles Rule which is That the strong do descend and yeild to the weaker if we will hearken to the Counsel of the Lord Chancellor Bacon in his Considerations touching the Church of England Quest. Doth the holy Scripture caution us against grieving our Brethren as well as against offending of them so as to occasion them to stumble and fall into sin Answ 'T is our duty not onely to prevent out Brothers fall but his fears and to keep his heart from sinking as well as his feet from falling To the weak became I as weak that I might gain the weak I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some 1 Cor. 9.22 'T is the part of a good Shepherd to carry the Lambs in his Arms and gently to lead the Ewes that are great with young and of Nursing Fathers and Mothers to be tender-hearted and tender-handed towards Babes towards weak and young Children If it be said We must not grieve or vex the Magistrate I answer 'T is true we must not but if the Magistrate please to remove the Law where there 's no Law there 's no Disobedience and then the Offence ceaseth And where there 's no Offence committed by the Inferiour there should be no Offence taken by the Superiour or when there is none given there should be none taken The things are alterable in themselves The Magistrate is a Minister of God for good and if he shall please to remove every stumbling-stone and grieving-thorn out of the way to the Church and out of the way of Obedience How shall God and his people bless him All the power that the Church hath it is to edification and not to destruction and there 's a far greater necessity of Unity than of Uniformity 'T is a great deal better not to make Canons than to make such as we fore-see will be broken by thousands and that under a pretence of Conscience and who are serious sober civil people in their Lives and Conversations Quest What may be thought the readiest way to make the Bishops work easie and his person to be beloved Answ 'T is I think to use Moderation to rule with Love and not with Rigor and that notwithstanding some young Counsellors some Hot-spurs may advise them as of old the young men did Rehoboam when their Brethren come to them and say Your Fore-fathers or your Predecessors divers of them made our Yoke grievous Now therefore make ye we pray you the grievous Service of your Fore-fathers and their heavy Yoke which they put upon us lighter and we will serve you To say to them Our little Finger shall be heavier than our Fore-fathers Loyns and now whereas they did lade you with a heavy Yoke we will adde to your Yoke Our Fore-fathers chastised you with Whips but we will chastise you with Scorpions The deeper you lay the Foundation in Humility and the broader in Charity the higher you may probably build your House and it may likewise stand the longer A well-grounded Jus Humanum may stand longer than a high-built pretended Jus Divinum And Reason shews saith one that Episcopacy will stand more firm in conjunction with Presbytery than by it self alone There be two circumstances saith my Lord Chancellor Bacon wherein I could never be satisfied the one the sole exercise of their Authority the other the deputation of their Authority For the first he saith surely I do suppose and I think upon good ground that ab initio non fuit ita And that the Deans and Chapters were Counsels about the Seas and Chairs of Bishops at the first and were unto them a Presbytery or Consistory And again we see that the Bishop of Rome Fas est ab hoste doceri and no question in that Church the first Institutions were excellent performeth all Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in Consistory with advice that is of the Cardinals or Parish-Priests of Rome And hereof again saith he we see divers shadows yet remaining as that the Dean and Chapter proformâ chooseth the Bishop which is the highest point of Jurisdiction Again The same Author tells us that the Bishop is a Judge and of a high nature Whence cometh it that he should depute considering that all trust and confidence is personal and inherent and cannot or ought not to be transposed surely in this again ab initio non fuitita But it is probable that Bishops when they gave themselves too much to the glory of the World and became Grandees in Kingdoms and great Counsellors to Princes then did they leave their proper Jurisdiction as things of too inferior a nature for their greatness And then after the similitude and immitation of Kings and Counts-Palatine they would have their Chancellors and Judges Quest Is the Author of the Fr. Debate so extraordinary zealous as he pretends for the honour of our Governours and Government in the State Answ See pag. 50 51. of the Continuation where he doth insinuate or more plainly inform the Nation that not only Nonconformists keep Conventicles but that Mass is said and that the Papists take the same liberty in the exercise of their Religion as the Nonconformists do in theirs And that little or no notice is taken of any Drunkards Sweaters or Blasphemers If he had pleased 't is to be thought he might have found great sins amongst the Clergy little taken notice of and not much punished in Ecclesiastical Courts If he had done like Shem and Japhet to have rather endeavoured to cover his nakedness he might have been blessed by them or else if he will needs have his jerks at Nonconformists though it light partly on his and our Superiors in the State to have gone on and have whipped the Buyers and Sellers in out of the Temple also Quest Do the Nonconformists teach the people railing language particularly to call all they like not Antichristian and Babylonish Vid. Contin p. 155 266 c. Answ Time was when Reverend and Renowned Mr. Vines that lost the Mastership of Pembroke-Hall in Cambridge because he would not subscribe the Engagement as did also Dr. Spurstow the Master of Katherine-Hall and Mr. Young of Jesus-Colledge for the same cause preaching before the Parliament said Henceforward he should take Antichrist for
a better man than ever he thought him to be there were so many good things charged upon him And another Presbyterian now a Nonconformist preaching to the same Auditors preached that Antichristian and Babylonian were terms sooner imputed or charged than proved But if the Nonconforming-Ministers or People were yet ignorant and to seek for scoffing and reviling language they might have a Dictionary of such hard words out of the Friendly Debate If there be in Private-meetings that use railing and reviling speeches as too many too often have is publick Congregations I would rather advise people to sit quietly at home if they will not go to Church than to go or step out of doors to learn their language I do not love a biting tongue and I take a black mouth to be as venemous in a man as 't is accounted wholsom in a dog And if there be any printed Book wiâ—h such railing speeches or phrases in them I will promise you it shall never have my Imprimatur without an Index expurgatorius in the next Edition Quest Is the Divinity of the Nonconformists a Phrase-Divinity and in case their Books and Sermons are not fill'd with foul language is there any thing besides fine words and new phrases in them Answ There was something besides words in the Old Nonconformists witness the writings of Mr. Dod Mr. Ball Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw c. And doubtless there is matter and that good matter and sound speech that need not to be ashamed in the Writings of Nonconformists of this Generation witness the Books written by Mr. Baxter Dr. Manton Mr. Caryll Mr. Allen Dr. Owen Mr. Pool c. they hold to Scripture-expressions and to the terms of sound words which they have received from the most serious solid pious Bishops and Doctors of the Chair Professors at home and abroad in former times yea the Nonconforming-Presbyterians and Congregational Ministers profess to agree with our Articles of Religion of the Church of England in all things concerning the Doctrine of Faith and Ceremonies And is all this but Phrase-Divinity The Author of the Debate and divers other of the present Conformists may as justly be charged for new Divinity new minted words in Divinity new phrases and modes of expressing themselves in Sermons and Writings and these too less conform to the language of the holy Scripture our own Articles and Homilies the Harmony of Confessions of the Reformed Churches and our ancient Bishops and Doctors The Author of the Debate though he seems to be the Bishops Advocate yet his Writings shew him more an Episcopian than an Episcopalian and 't is easie to see from what forge they have their new Divinity and new Theological Dictionary Quest. Were not the Nonconformists the cause of the strange and new Doctrines and Opinions and of phantastical words and phrases in preaching and writing Ans I grant the taking down the old Mound or Hedge and not setting a new one in the room was an occasion that many erronious persons like wild beasts did get into the Vineyard and that some strange Doctrines Phancies Phrases and Whimses were vented in the Times of War and late Confusions but I say that these things are not to be charged upon the Presbyterians for if they had had power to their principles and purposes they would doubtless have raised up a Mound or Fence against such Errors Fancies and Follies as strong as that the Parliament removed I have heard it observed that of all Churches no Church hath had fewer Heresies and Heterodoxies spring up or at least prosper in it than the Church of Scotland and that this was acknowledged by King James Quest Were all that took the Covenant bound thereby to endeavour to introduce the Government of the Church of Scotland into England because they obliged themselves to maintain and defend Religion in the Church of Scotland and to reform Religion in the Church of England Vid. Contin p. 168. Answ No. They engaged only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might to preserve Religion in the Church of Scotland against the Common Enemy notwithstanding which the Scots might reform ought that was amiss or defective with his Majesties leave and consent in a legal manner And the English Covenanters were not bound to model the Church-Government in England according to the pattern of the Kirk of Scotland but according to the Word of God and the best Reformed Churches Whether Scotland or Holland or Geneva c. was the best Reformed Church was not determined And the English were not engaged in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might by the Covenant to follow the Model of any one of these or all the Reformed Churches in any thing disagreeing from the Word of God and in case a primitive Episcopacy that is Church-Government by a Bishop with a Presbytery as his Counsellors and Assistants prove most agreeable to the Word of God they were bound to set up onely in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might that Government in the Church of England Notwithstanding what the Earl of Bristol when Lord Digby hath written in his Letters to Sir Kenelm Digby viz. He that would reduce the Church now to the Form of Government in the most primitive times should not take in my Opinion the best nor the wisest course I am sure not the safest for he would be found pecking towards the Presbytery of Scotland which for my part I believe in point of Government hath a greater resemblance than yours or ours to the first Age of Christs Church But whatever was the meaning of the Imposers or Takers of the Covenant in those days I have heard an eminent Person a Doctor that had taken it though a Nonconformist declare That he was not bound by it to endeavour any other Reformation than what he had been obliged unto if he never had taken the Covenant that he is not bound to use any unlawful or seditious means or endeavours to bring about a Reformation That the Law of the Land is the Rule to judge by what means or endeavours are unlawful and seditious Quest Do not the Presbyterians play fast and loose and turn with the wind Was not the time once when they held Ruling Elders to be Jure Divino but now they hold no such matter Answ I believe the Scottish Presbyterians were and still are of that Judgement that Ruling Elders are Jure Divino but I knew few English if any that held that Office so save onely in a large sence as many Episcopalians now hold Bishops to be Jure Divino that is a lawful Government not repugnant to the Word of God However 't is said and that by no mean Scholar That Geneva did not first institute those Officers but only restored them And I have read that it was acknowledged by a great Prelate That the Church had in every Church certain Seniors to whom the Government of the Church was
committed Surely they are as tolerable in a Church where the Supreme Power thinks good to establish that Order as are Chancellors Commissaries c. But in case that some Presbyterians of old held them of use in the Apostles days this alone without an Institution and an Injunction to perpetuate them doth not make them or any other Ecclesiastical Officers unalterable for we see that the Office of Widdows is laid aside in the Church notwithstanding Quest Did not the Presbyterians wholly lay aside the use of the Lords Supper And was it not for want of Ruling Elders Answ They celebrated the Lords Supper in London and that too in some Churches once a Month and frequently at Oxford and I suppose in many other places Possibly the expectation of a settlement might hinder the Administration of that Ordinance for a time in many places Bur I knew a Parish where it was a long time disused though desired because the Parishoners did not provide though oft urged unto it by the Minister decent and necessary Utensils for the Celebration of it Quest Do the Nonconformists decry all use of Reason in Theology Answ They use frequently Reasons in their Sermons Indeed they allow Reason but the second place in Divinity to Revelation they give the first Reason and Philosophy they make to be the Handmaids but Divinity they honour as their Soveraign Lady and Queen Reason is the Counsellor but Revelation is the Law-giver We say the Light of Reason is as the Light of a Glow-Worm or of a Candle or if you will needs have it as the Light of the Moon but the Light of Divine Revelation is as the Light of the Sun when it shineth in its full strength Dr. T. And with a reverend and learned Doctor we allow the use of a Candle although we would have it snuffed and when it is set up in the house we would not have the Window shut either to keep our or at least to darken the Light of the Sun We prefer feeding on Manna before feeding on Acorns and Husks the Commands of St. Paul before the Precepts of Plato the Mass of Gold in the Mine before a few pieces of Silver scattered here and there in the Studies of Philosophers Quest Do the Congregations of those that dissent from the established Worship consist mostly of Army Saints Answ I have heard one that hath reason to know upon many Accounts better than the Author of the Debate say That there is scarce a fifth person of those that meet privately that was engaged in the late Differences And that the greatest part of the late Army are at this day Members of Parochial Churches is an even Wager Quest Do the Arminians or Calvinists come nearest to the Doctrine of the Church of England Answ The profound pious and learned Doctor Samuel Ward that was the La. Margaret's Professor of Divinity in Cambridge whose Determinations are set out by the great pains and care of the Right Reverend Seth Lord Bishop of Sarisbury in a Sermon of his Ad Clerum and dedicated by himself to the University of Cambridge testifies That as the whole Church of God ever since St. Austine so in particular the National Church of England and the University of Cambridge from the Reformation and all the Professors except onely one Baro were against Arminius his Tenets And this Baro within two years was forced to leave the Chair by the Power and Authority of Archbishop Whitgift Illud etiam verè adjicere possum plus uni Augustino jam veterano in ista causa versatissimo tribuendum esse quà m centùm Corvinis Grotiis Vorstiis Bertiis Tilenis id genus recentioribus Dogmatistis Accedat illud coronidis loco Augustino semper ad baesisse hac ex-parte Ecclesiam Universalem ab ejus temporibus Ecclesiam item Anglicanam ab initio Reformationis c. Quest Is the case of the Donatists and the case of the Non-conformists alike Answ The Donatists as they had no cause in regard of the Faith by reason of any dangerous Doctrines or Practices imposed on them to cease from communicating with any part of the Catholick Church so they divided from the whole Church with the breach of Charity condemning it for no Church and drawing the Communion wholly to themselves The Nonconformists do not condemn the Church of England as no Church they do not confine the Communion to themselves they humbly pray a Reformation of some things which they conceive amiss and are willing to have Communion with them as Parts of the Catholick Church saving the Practices wherein they differ they leave them to their Liberty and desire a Liberty for themselves to serve God according to their Consciences The Presbyterians shewed their Charity in their earnest endeavours to save the life of Dr. Hewit an Episcopal Dr for which purpose they joyned in an Address to O. C. the only Address they ever made unto him Neither Presbyterians nor Congregationists charge the Episcopalians for being Schismaticks because they do not communicate with their Congregations and yet they look upon themselves as true Churches of Christ and both for Doctrine and Discipline to come as near the Scripture-Patern as themselves They offered to Unite and Reconcile with the Episcopal-Clergy upon Christian terms before His Majesties Return and since As for out Brethren of New England they are of Age let them answer for themselves As for our Congreational Brethren at home I lately heard that Dr. Goodwin should profess to hold Communion even with the Lutheran Churches And Dr. Owen professeth against all Impositions and that 't is his Judgment That the Episcopals and Presbyterians be left to worship God as they judge in their Consciences best That for his part he judgeth no man for his Conformity provided he be not a Persecuter of those that cannot Finally The Presbyterians for themselves desire much rather a Reformation or well stated Comprehension than a Toleration and are against Schism and Separation truly so called as much as any which they have sufficiently evidenced by their constantly declared Opinions and Practice They would be glad to see the day when being eased of burdensome Impositions they might have opportunity to manifest this their sincere desire of Union and Coalition with the Church of England A Postscript to the Author of the Friendly Debate SIR YOu have dealt with us as the Jewes did with our Blessed Saviour blindfolded us smitten us in effect bid us Prophesie who it is that smote us Some ghesses have been who you are by the roughness of your hand and the smartness of the blow I have not taken upon me thus to shoot in the dark and yet pretend to hit the Mark Nor will I go about to pull off the Vizor you put upon your own face but to wipe off the dirt which you have cast on ours To this purpose I pray you after these premised Reflections by me on some Passages in your Friendly Debate c.