would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
Councell is not only Loâ—hers iudgement but Gersons and Panormitans Page 111 24 The reasons why Protestants went not to the Councell of Trent Page 112 25 Iohn Husse burned at the Councell of Constance contrary to the Emperours warrant Page 112 26 No promise made by the Emperour or any secular Prince may hinder the proceedings of Ecclesinsticall Iudges nota 27 Ecclesiasticall Iudges that is the Councell is abone the Emperour Page 113 28 Luther goes to the Councell vpon the Emperours word Pag. 114 The summe of the fifth answere touching the Fathers 1 It is a foolish brag of Papists to challenge all the Fathers for theirs and to be on their side when there is nothing lesse Page 124 2 The popish Denys was not the Denys Areopagite whom Paul conuerted to the faith and his hierarchie as noueltie Page 124. 125 3 Ignatius they boast so much of was a counterfet Page 125. 126 4 The argument is weake Ireneus is challenged by Protestants to haue written something vnsoundly therefore he is altogether on the Papists side he errect about the time of Christs preaching baptisme and death he was a Millenarie Page 126 5 Clemens taught that Christ did neither hunger nor thirst and that he taught but 〈◊〉 veare And that the Philosophers in hellexpeâ—ted Christs comming and being taught by him beleeued Page 127 6 Tertullian in his booke of prescriptions hath many things against the Romish church Page 127 7 The popish Hippolytus is counterfeit and his booke of Antichrist which gesseth that the Diuell was Antichrist Page 127. nota 8 Caussaeus excused for his censure of Cyprian by Nazianzenes report of him what he was in his youth Page 128 9 Cyprian and other Fathers corrupted the doctrine of repentance making it a kind of satisfaction they detracted from the death of Christ and the power of it Page 129 10 Chrysostome Nazianzene Ambrose and Hierome are not wholy on the Papists side because Luther and others censured them in some things Page 130 11 Papists are not the children of the Fathers but as the Pharisies were of Moses and the Iews of Abraham Protestants reuerence the Fathers but acknowledge but one father which is in heauen nota 12 Beza did Hierome no wrong if Erasmus said true of his censuring of S. Paul for want of moderation in ansâ—ering the high Priest and imputing some wants to Christ Page 131 13 Hierome often much wresteth the scripture Page 132 14 It is lawfull to prefer one man in the truth before all Fathers and Councels in error Page 132 15 Lent fast though auncient yet was it not ordeined by Christ or his Apostles the manner of obscruing it not the same in all Churches Page 133. nota 16 What fasts Protestants allow the same iudgement they haue which Augustine hath who knew not Lentenâ—fast Pag. 134 17 The popish Monks are maruelous voluptuous and liue in sensualitie far vnlike those who haue beene Page 134 18 Reliques of Saincts not burned nor their funerals remoued but their superstitions iniurious to God and his glory Pag. 135 19 Augustine in his booke of freewill doth not establish it but sheweth that sinne commeth from mans freewill not from God and therefore intitled his booke so Page 136 20 The Papists and Pelagians differ not much in freewill Pag. 137. nota 21 Necessitie is not opposite to the freedome of Will but to force and compulsion man lost not his will but the qualitie of it nota 22 Augustine esteemed much of antiquitie vnitie and succession if sincere wisdome and truth went with them else he preferred truth before them so do Protestants Page 138 23 Optatus confuted Donatists by the communion of the Catholique Church so are schismatikes to be delt with but not from the now Romish church which is no true church Pag. 138. 139 24 Anthonie and other Hermites like him haue not successors like themselues He accounted a Monastery for a Monke as water is to fish Page 140. nota 25 Prudentius vsed a poeticall libertie in his deuotions to Saincts Page 140. nota 26 Praying to Saincts had gotten great footing in the Church when Ambrose liued and he and other Fathers were corrupted by it Page 141. nota 27 Gregorie without any warrant called Images lay mens bookes Page 141 28 It is lawfull to breake downâ— Images by warrant of the word and examples in it and in the stories of the primitiue Church nota 29 Not Protestants but Papists reiect oftentimes the testimonie of the Fathers and flye to Councels pag. 142. Then Campians argument is not good Protestants reiect some things in the Fathers therefore they reiect their whole volumes for if it be good it will fall vpon themselues Page 142 30 Protestants haue reason to prohibite popish bookes being full of sedition and horesie specially seeing in Queene Maryes time they executed martiall lawe vpon any that had the bookes of Protestants Page 143 31 Bishop Iewel proued all the auncient Fathers to be against the church of Rome in disputing with Harding as he had assumed at the Crosse Page 144. 145 The summe of the sixt Answere touching the foundation of the Fathers 1. Campians reason is weake The Fathers haue studied the scriptures diligently and preferred them before all other writings therefore their exposition of them is sound and good not to be reiected without sinne Page 150 2 Hierome and Augustine dissent about the exposition of Gal. 2.11 Page 151 3 Not only euery particular Fathermaâ—erre but all of one age haue erred in a particular of setting vp Images in the Church Page 150 nota 4 Augustine Innocent and other Bishops thought it neceâ—sary the Eucharist should be giuen to infants Page 151. nota 5 Papists leaue the scriptures and search out and follow after mens inuention Page 152 6 The Papists allow the learned only to reade them but Christ commandeth all Page 152. nota 7 It is prooued against Duraeus that Christ hath commanded the simple to reade the scriptures and hath left to them the bookes of the scriptures Page 152. nota 8 Protestants will subscribe to the Fathers so far as they keepe them to the scriptures Page 153 9 Denys is against the priuate Masse Page 160 10 Priuate Masses cannot profit the absent Page 160. nota 11 In Iustine Martyrs time they gaue to the people both the bread and wine ibid. 12 Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter and denies that any appeales should be made to the Bishop of Rome ibid. and pag. 161. nota 13 Lactantius denies that true religion and Images can stand together ibid. 14 The heathen worshipped not their Images but the Gods expressed by them ibid. nota 15 Athanasius maketh the scriptures sufficient ibid. 16 Epiphanius condemneth all worshipping of the virgin Mary ibid. and pag. 162 17 The Papists do worship and offer vp sacrifices to the virgin Mary and other Saints Page 162. nota 18 Basil saith in his time the prayers of the Church were in a knowne tongue ibid.
19 Prayers in an vnknowne tongue profit not the people as Duraeus thinks they do ibid. nota 20 Nazianzene alloweth and praiseth ciuill societie no lesse then Monkish life ibid. 21 Ambrose condemnes all prayers to Saints and their intercession Page 163 22 Duraeus vaine distinction of Intercessors and Suffragators ibid. nota 23 Hierome makes a Bishop and a Priest of equall authoritie bâ— the laâ— of God ibid. 24 Pope Gelasius condemneth as sacrilegious the tâ—king away of the cup from the people and commaundeth that either both the elements be giuen to them or neither Page 164 25 Duraeus maketh the Manechies the first authors of dismembring the supper ibid. nota 26 Vigilius denies the presence of Christ in the Church in both natures ibid. 27 Chrysostome exhorteth all men to reade the scriptures ibid. 28 Augustine is wholly on the Protestants side Page 165 29 By Gregories iudgement he that calleth himselfe Vniuersall Bishop is a fore-runner of Antichrist Page 161 30 Iohn Bishop of Constantinople first challenged the title of Vniuersall Bishop ibid. 31 What is meant by vniuersall Bishop by Gregories iudgement which toucheth the Pope home ibid. nota 32 Boniface the 3. tooke the name of vniuersall Bishop and deriued it to his successors Page 166. nota The summe of the seuenth Answere touching histories 1 Campian only numbering vp the Historiographers foolishly concludeth all are on their side page 169 2 Protestants refuse not to examine their doctrine by histories so they be not tied to the apparent blemishes in theÌ„ Page 170 3 Historiographers are tainted with the corruptions of their times and the later they are the more corrupt for the most part they are found to be Page 161 4 The church of Rome is maruelously corrupted though we could not tell when it begun to be so and yet see the beginning of some particulars as of vsurped authority ouer Churches of deniall of Priests mariages of worshipping Images of carnall eating in the Sacrament of Transubstantiation of Purgatory of the Pope aboue Councels Page 177. nota 5 The corruption of it greâ— not all at once no more then of Ierusalem but by little and little as in the Greeke church also Page 172 6 The heads of the heretikes who rose vp in the Greeke church so of those who rose vp in the Latine church ibid. nota 7 The Church all the Apostles time was a pure virgin after their departure became corrupt Page 173. 174 8 The promises of the Churches perpetuall preseruation from corruption did and do belong to the Church of the elect not to particular Churches ibid. nota 9 In the Councell of Africk where there were present Page 217. Bishops and Augustine himselfe the Bishop of Rome affected to haue all appeales made to him but the Councell denied it vnto him Page 175 10 The Legates of the Pope forge a Canon of the Councell of Nice to perswade this Councell which forgerie is found out by search ibid. 11 Augustine and the Bishops of Africke censured for schismatikes by Boniface for resisting the Bishop of Rome who affirmeth that they were moued vnto it by the Diuell Page 176 12 Eulalius the first Bishop of Carthage who admitted the Popes power ouer the Churches of Afrike ibid. 13 Then became the Church of Rome plainely Antichristian when Phocas the murtherer granted to her to be the head of Churches and Boniface the 3. to be vniuersall Bishop ibid. 14 Gregorie the great was the last good and the first bad Bishop of the church of Rome Page 177 15 Bernard and Aeneas Siluius who was afterward caâ—â—d Pope Pius maruellously inueâ—ed againsâ— the corruptions of the church of Rome ibid. 16 Bernard cryeth out of the pomp of Eugenius the Pâ—â—e and the impietie of his court ibid. nota 17 All sinnes in Rome might both be practised and reprehended Page 1â—8 18 The censure of Cornelius which he gaue of the church of Rome in the Councell of Trent ibid. 19 The Argument is weake the church of Rome was once holy therefore it is so still ibid. 20 Rome though it be Babylon yet not that which S. Peter spoke of 1. Pet. 5.13 Neither haue they yet prooued that Peter was at Rome Page 179 21 If histories do mention any such thing yet it is with such varietie that there is no certaintie of it in the scriptures there is not one tittle of it nay by necessary collection they disclaime it when as this then is the whole ground of the hierarchie of the Papacie it is a ground without any foundation of the scripture ibid. nota 22 Caluine confesseth the church of Rome in the time of Syricius and other Bishops to haue bene the Church of Chriâ—t but denies not but it had erred Page 181 23 Errors ouerthrow not a Church for being a true Church ibid. 24 Syricius the first who inforced single life vpon the Ministers ibid. nota and Page 182 25 Syricius and Innocent did condemne marriage as euill Page 182. nota 26 The Church of Rome is but a Church in shew and pomp else it hath nothing in it of a true Church Page 183. nota 27 Pelagius and Papists agree both about grace inbred in mans nature ibid. The summe of the eight Answere touching the Paradoxes of the Aduersaries 1 Caluin nor any Protestant maketh God the author of sin pag. 193. nota and Page 194. nota 2 God hath a finger in the action which is euill not in the corruption of it which is wholy from man but in the motion and action which is in it selse good Page 195 3 If wee say God permitteth sinne vnwillingly wee ouerthrow his prouidence and omnipotencie he willeth yet alloweth not that which is euill Page 196 4 Men are guiltie of sinne in the things they doe which are euill and yet God holy though he willeth them Augustine and Hugo de Sancto Victore doe so thinke Page 197. and Page 198 5 The Lord worketh both in him that sinneth and in him that worketh well but after a diuers manner Page 199 6 Christ is the Sonne of the essence of the Father not by decision or propagation but by communication But he is God of himselfe Page 201. and nota 7 The essence is not begotten but the person of the person Page 202. and Page 203 8 Beza corrected his error of two personall vnions in Christ. ibid. 9 The 10. of Iohn vers 30. expounded and defended that it proueth not the vnitie of essence in Christ his Father Page 204 10 Not Luther only but many of the Fathers disliked and repented the bringing in of the word Homousion yet they held the thing Page 205 11 Christ was not at the first perfect in wisedome but mcreased as in bodie so in his minde and wisedome Page 206 12 Christ was ignorant of many things but without sinne Page 208 13 Christ was ignorant of the last day as man and not onely because hee would not or did not reueale it to others Page 208. nota
256. nota 68 A belieuing man may haue remission of his sinnes though the Minister who pronounceth it intend no such thing pag. 256 69 It is not the dutie of the Minister of the Gospell to reade prayers by the houre but to giue diligence to reading exhortation and doctrine pag. 257 70 Christians are bound to obey the lawes of Magistrates but are freed from the religion of them Their particular lawes binde not the conscience though men must obey their gouernment for conscience sake pag. 267. â—58 nota The summe of the ninth Answere touching the sophismes of the Aduersarie 1 Iesuits be chiefe Sophisters and kings of all other in the kingdome of Poperie pag. 263 2 The sophismes of the Papists by which they would ouerthrow the marriage of Ministers and Deacons pag. 264 3 Pope Innocent thought marriage dutie to be an vnholy thing ibid. nota 4 Their sophismes for the Popes supremacie and his excellencie aboue the Emperor that he is not to be reprooued that he cannot erre pag. 265. 266. 267 5 Though one Pastor haue rule ouer one flocke it followeth not one must haue ouer all ibid. nota 6 Their sophismes for priuat Masse the Priests communicating alone that the people must haue onely one part pag. 267 7 Their sophismes that prayers must bee in an vnknowne 〈◊〉 us that the people may not reade the Scriptures pag. 268 8 Their sophismes that the bread is Christs bodie and that it is to be worshipped that election is for merit ibid. 9 Their sophismes that the sicke should bee anoynted that marriage is a sacrament That a Monkish life is warrantable by the examples of Elias and Iohn Baptist but it is vnsound pag. 269. nota 10 Their sophismes that there are seuen Sacraments that images must be set vp in Churches That we are iustified by charitie and not by faith ibid. 11 Their sophismes that men haue free will that Christ deliuered the Fathers out of Lambus that the authoritie of the Church is aboue the Scripture pag. 270 12 Their sophismes that all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation That men passe thorough the fire of Purgatorie to eternall life pag. 271 13 The place 2. Thes 2.15 doth not establish traditioÌ„s ibid. nota 14 The 1. Cor. 3.15 doth not prooue Purgatorie ibid. nota 15 Some sophismes of Campians ibid. 16 It is no sophisme from the commendation of mariage to ouerthrow the vow of virginitie pag. 272 17 The Prelates haue spoken most basely and impiously of mariage like to the ancient Heretikes pag. 273 18 They prefer virginitie before it without any Scripture and yet they make it a Sacrament and virginitie none pag. 272. nota 19 Mariage is honourable in all and impure in to degree pag. 273 20 Protestats vse no sophisme in disputing against merits ibid. 21 Papists teach that their merits dipped in Christs blood doth merit saluation that is that Christ hath merited by his blood that men might merit saluation pag. 274 22 That good works cannot merit is proued ibid. nota pag. 275 23 Neither Angels can nor Adam could merit any thing ibid. nota 24 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against worship of Saints ibid. 25 Saints are not to be worshipped or prayed vnto 275. nota 26 Duraeus saith the Saints are in farre distant places at once 276. nota 27 Papists blasphemies touching the Virgin Mary ibid. 28 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against the Masse and Purgatorie 277 29 Neither Masse nor Purgatorie is to be found in the scripture neither the names nor the things are there ibid. 30 In the Supper thâ—re was no sacrifice neither now can be nor vnbloodie sacrifice 278. nota 31 There is neither the name nor the office of a Priest in the new Testament appropriated to any one kinde of men 279 32 There is no sacrifice in the Gospell but that which is common to all to offer 280 33 The Church hath lawfull power to chuse her Ministers 280 nota 34 The Papists choise of meate and their set daies of fasting are ridiculous and superstitious 281 35 The examples of Elisha Daniel and Iohn Baptist will not warrant Popish fasts 282. nota 36 S. Paul reprooued the Galathians for obseruing dayes and times because they accounted it necessarie to saluation as Papists doe now teach 282. nota 37 Papists fastings condemned by the 1. Tim. 4.23 and differ from the old Christian fast ibid. 38 Aeâ—â—â—s was not condemned of the Church as an heretike for iudging of fasting as Protestants doe 283. nota 39 Auncient Christians fasted voluntarily not by canon or precept ibid. 40 The word Sacraments are the true notes of the Church 283.284 41 The Fathers in the greatest matters are wholy the Protestants 285. nota 42 Papists preferre the Fathers before the Canonicall Scriptures ibid. nota 43 By Aquinas his iudgement things are necessarily prooued by the Scripture but only probably by the Fathers ibid. The summe of the tenth Answere touching all manner of Witnesses 1 It is Campians witlesse kind of reasoning wheÌ„ an enumeration of all kind of witnesses to coÌ„clude all are on his side 299 2 They only find the way spoken of Isay 35.8 who are taught by Christ and be holy 300. nota 3 In visible particular Churches are good and bad not in the inuisible Catholike Church ibid. nota 4 No Iesuite nor any Papist can be in heauen because they haue the marke of the beast 301 5 Many Bishops of Rome are in heauen but neuer a Pope ibid. 6 Ignatius was not on the Papists side because he taught that a Bishop was aboue a King for Protestants hold the same for the administration of the offices of a Bishop Yet the King aboue him in commaunding him to doe them and in puâ—â—shing him if he neglect them 301.302 7 Protestants receiue Traditions so long as they agre with the writingâ— of the Apostles ibid. 8 Neither Telesphorus reuiued nor the Apostles ordained the fast of Lent ibid. nota 303 9 The decretall epistles of the Pope were not framed by them but by their parasites ibid. 10 Iâ—enaeus allowed not the succession of Bishops in Rome but while there was succession of truth with it ibid. 11 Victor could not make the Churches of Asia keepe Easter after the manner of the Romane Church but the Councell of Nice preuailed more ibid. nota 12 The Church of Smyrna neuer gathered the bones of Polycarpe for reliques but to burie them 304 13 Cornelius the Pope could neuer abolish the error which Cyprian and the Church of Affrike did hold ibid. nota 14 Sixtus was no more on the Papists side then on the Protestants because he had Deacons to help him to celebrate diuine seruice ibid. 15 Helenâ— iâ—â—he found the Crosse yet she worshipped it not as Pâ—pâ—â—tâ— do aâ—d thâ—t with â—aâ—râ—a 305. nota 16 Monâ—â—â— deâ—ired not to be sacrificed for at the Mâ—â—â—e for remission of sinne but to be
remembred as the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles were to shew she was of the communion of Saints ibid. 306. nota 17 Prayer for the dead rose not from the scriptures but from the excessiue loue of the liuing to the dead ibid. 18 Augustine neuer prayed for his mother as thinking her to be in Purgatory ibid. 19 The auncient Fathers are to be iudged of not by one particular iudgement but by their constant opinion ibid. 20 The Monks of Popery much vnlike the Monks of auncient time 307 21 Satyrus challenged by Campian for this because he could swimme ibid. 22 The Schoolemen differ often in matter of faith 308. nota 23 Papists and the Iesuits liue as if there were no heauen ibi 24 The doctrine of Papists is such as whosoeuer holdeth it wholly cannot raigne with Christ 309 25 Antichrist of Rome hath inlarged hell more then all tyrants and heretikes ibid. 26 The cause why Christians resorted so much to Ierusalem after Christes death 310 27 Superstitious pilgrimages are contrary to the word and condemned by Gregory Nyssen and Bernard ibid. nota 28 The cause why the Iewes hate Christians is the Gospell not the spoiling of them of their priesthood and kingdome which was done by heathenish Tyrants ibid. nota 29 The Papists great friends to the Iewes allowing them toleration 311 30 Papists are not the ofspring of the Fathers 312 31 Lights were vsed by Christians only when they were forced to meete in the night and after without any ground of scripture custome brought them to be lighted at noone day 312. nota 32 The church of Rome was once poore when it had woodden Chalices and golden Priests But Vâ—bane the Pope made all the ministring dishes of siluer 313. nota 33 Constantine quieted the troubles of the church of Rome and since his time as sâ—e hath increased in wealth so she hath decreased in pietie ibid. 34 Constantine was not baptised by Syluester Bishop of Rome who was dead long before his baptisme 314 35 Constantine vsed the crosse in his armes and banners but neuer worshipped it ibid. 36 Constantine had not the lowest place in the Councell of Nice but the chiefest ibid. 37 The Turke neuer lesse preuailed theÌ„ since Luthers time 315 38 The Pope and his dealings did much enlarge the Turks by diuiding the Empire ibid. 39 The Turks are greater enemies to the Greeke Church then to the Latine 316 40 Symon Magus denied all freewill vnto men which Protestants do not neither did Caluine ibid. nota 41 Protestants are farre from that error of the Nouatians touching the repentance of those who are fallen ibid. 42 They are farre different from the Manichees in the matter of Baptisme 317 43 The church of Rome for along time was more excellent then the rest and so accounted yet for all that it neuer had neither in that respect ought to haue dominion ouer the rest 318. nota 44 Augustine and the Councell of Carthage forbad that the Bishop of the chiefe sea should not be called Prince of Priests ibid. And to it the Bishop of Rome submitted himselfe for a time 319. nota 45 The Greeke Church is opposite to the Romane Church and hath her bishoply succession ibid. 46 The Papists haue not ouerthrowne the idols of the heathen but filled the world full of their idols 321 47 The Iesuites haue diuided Christ and haue no proprietie in the name of Iesus ibid. nota 48 Luther preached the true Christ the papists neither haue him nor preach him 322 49 Britanie receiued tâ—e faith many ages before August the Monke came who brought more euil then good with him ibid. The end of the Contents TO THE MOST LEARNED VNIVERSITIE MEN FLORISHING BOTH AT OXFORD AND Cambridge Edmond Campian sendeth greeting WHen I returned most worthy men into this Iland a yeere agoe vpon commandement of my superiours according to the order of that Religion which I professe I found stormes farre more dangerous on the English coasts than those were which I had lately escaped on the Brittaine Ocean But when I had gone further into England I sawe nothing more vsuall then vnusuall punishments nothing more certaine than vncertaine daungers Then I plucks vp my heart as well as I could calling to mind the goodnes of my cause and not forgetting the troubles of these times And least peraduenture I should be caught before that any man heard what I had to say forthwith I writ downe my determination why I came what I sought for what manner of warre and against whom I purposed to proclaime it The first draught of my writing I kept still about me that if I were apprehended it might be found with me A copie thereof I left in keeping with a friend of mine which vnawares trulie to me was shewed to many other men and by them coppied out The Aduersaries tooke the schedule being published in ill part most spitefully reprehending both all the rest as also this that I alone in this matter of Religion had made the challenge to all Although in very deed I alone would not haue entred the list if with licence of her Maiestie and safe conduct these disputations had been granted Hanmer and Charke haue made answere to my challenge what I pray you though it were long before To no purpose at all for they shall giue no answere honestly but one which I feare they will neuer giue to wit We accept of your answere The Queenes Maiestie hath giuen her word that you shall come and goe safe make haste hitherwarde In the meane while they are full of their exclamations Fie vpon thy societie out vpon thy seditions art thou not ashamed of thine arrogancie thou art a Traitor doubtles thou art a Traitor foolishly said of them Why do those men not the vnaduisedst of all the rest so lauishlie loose their labour and cost of pen inke and paper But there is of late a little booke very plaine set forth for these two men to peruse the former of which for his pleasure and recreation took my said paper in hand to confute the same the other more maliciously hudleth vp the whole matter which so farre forth as was expedient entreates both of our society and of these mens iniuries and of the charge which I haue vndertaken There remaineth only for me for as I perceiue our Bishops prouide scourges and not Schooles that I might render an account of my said fact euidently to shew and as it were with my finger to point out vnto you the chiefe Chapters and fountaines of the things that breed in me such confidence And withall to exhort you who especially aboue all others haue to do herein that you will looke vnto this charge with such carefull diligence as Christ the Church the Common-wealth and the saluation of your owne soules do require at your hands If I vpon the affiance of my wit learning art reading or memorie haue thus challenged the best learned of the
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
bookes belong to the old Testament I sent them here vnder written vnto you And this it may be induced Augustine to attribute the more to this booke and yet it cannot be proued hence as you would haue it that this booke was Authenticall and Canonicall by the account of the Church for Augustine himselfe witnesseth that it was not allowed as Canonicall by the iudgement of the Church neither indeed if the Church would haue giuen it all the allowance she could could she haue made it Authenticall except it had before it owne Authenticalnes in it selfe from aboue But you who glory so greatly in Antiquitie in the voice of the Church in Councels what will you answere to the Laodicene Councell Concil Laodic Canon 59. which forbids the reading of those bookes which are without the Canon and commaundeth the reading of those only which are of the Canon of the old and new Testament f DVR It hath been answered a thousand times that as yet in this age all the bookes vvere not receiued into the Canon WHIT. pag. 102. Then by your confession for 300. yeeres after Christ these bookes were not in the Canon it skilleth not much what the latter Churches haue affirmed when the purest and most auncient Churches affirme the same wedo DVR The Councels of Carthage Florence and Trent haue allovved them for Canonicall WHIT. pag. 102. We acknowledge not the two last to be lawfull Councels the first allowed it for manners not doctrine and faith and if the authoritie of it bee so great with you then you may not call your Pope vniuersall Bishoppe for that Councell denied it to him Carthag 3. cap. 26. distinct 99. prima sedis But which are they are all those which the Tridentine Councell hath put in the Catalogue nothing lesse but those only which our Church doth hold Canonicall If Campian you will stand to the iudgement of this Councell neither the booke of Wisdome nor any one of the other shall haue place among the Canonicall Scriptures Now then whatsoeuer Augustine should say if he were aliue doth not much trouble vs for whatsoeuer he should say in this kind he could speake nothing against vs but it would touch the Fathers of the Laodicene Councell whose decree in this point touching the Canonicall Scriptures either he had seene or at least might take notice of it Now for the things which follow you shew much colour but little reason You call this a horrible and detestable shift Then doe you Campian if you can driue vs out of this hold Me thinketh it is so safe and well fortified that it will easily beare off and repell all your assaults Though say you their armes be blased neuer so far abroad by their owne disciples though they buy and sell benefices though in their sermons they cry out against Catholikes though they procure them the sword racke and gallowes yet are they ouercome naught set by horrible in mens sight and quite ouerthrowne But yet young Frier â—ow thus much by Gods blessing we hitherto stand vpright on our seete neither euer were we soyled at your hands but haue long agoe by the helpe of God scattered ouerthrowne and put to flight many of your armies And the whole huge forme of your pontificall and glorious synagogue hath long since tottered and in short time will fall to the ground as Dagon before the Arke vnlesse you Iesuits manfully vphold and susteine it for it is impossible for vs to be vanquished of you in the defence of this cause Therfore with good courage and cheerefulnes we pursue this flight nothing doubting but that the Lord in the end will represse you and all the enemies of his name and glorie and make you his footstoole And for that you write touching buying selling of benefices if any be yet amongst vs it is but the reliques of your wicked practises heretofore among vs. For you know the custome of the Romish Court you know their filthines their auarice their Simony yea you know how the whole world crieth out and that continually of your most gainfull Marchandizes Haue you now leisure since you left Rome to prie into our carriage are all things so wel at home that you can without shame find faults abroad Suppose you were now become honest and holy yet you shall neuer bee able to cleere your Church of those filthie blemishes wherewith it hath bin desiled in former times And if there be any yet amongst vs that vse so foule a trade they are well worthy to heare such reproaches from you as such practises do deserue But I maruell the lesse that you obiect to vs buying and selling of Benefices when you complaine of our crueltie Now good God are we so cruell and you so mild what shall I say to it or what answere may I make sure it is there is nothing more inhumane then cruelty or more opposite to a Christians vertue for the disciples of Christ ought to be gentle clement and meeke master-like what then are we more cruell then you I will neuer deny this triall that their cause should be iudged the worst whose cruelty appeares to be the greatest I call to witnes all the people of the Christian world who haue yet any sense of humanity and equity remaining in them Let Italy speake also Germany Spaine Fraunce and our England It were tedious to recite the horrible murders the fearefull burnings and exquisite punishments you exercised amongst vs. Your cruelty is knowne and is yet fresh in memory neither shall euer be buried in obliuion what like to these did we euer practise or wherein is our cruelty so great was it because we suffered not our throats to be cut by you nor receiued your weapons into our bodies nor laid our neckes vpon the block nor willingly gaue vp our liues that we might giue you leaue to liue as you list This is it indeed you wished for for this you labour and goe about we poore wretches are accounted cruell because we liue and liue to withstand your proceedings But I doubt not but all indifferent men do sufficiently discerne g DVR Campian himselfe had experience of your cruelty WHIT. pag. 105. If Campian was by publike proceeding condemned for treason and put to death who will accuse our cruelty and not the greatnes of his offence yea and that he suffered not for religion appeareth thus others who were condemned with him at the same time and for the same offence when they renounced the Popes authority of deposing of Kings and freeing of subiects from obedience were not put to death as he was how iniuriously you lay this crimination vpon vs for these things which you name as the sword the racke the gallowes and fier are the instruments of your cruelty and had it not been for these your Church had been ouerthrowne long agoe for by these weapons it was first founded after increased and is now maintained if once these faile you questionlesse it
WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures they may answere the same which we doe for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine may professe that all cities village◠〈◊〉 which were religous were seasoned with their doctrine for in the Apostles time all Churches all cities all townes euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe After that by little and little the purity of doctrine n DVR Tell me then from whom and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift that we may see it hath moued though we cannot discerne the mouing of it so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall but the time when and the manner how they were brought in is not much to our purpose And it were too long to tell all yet heare some Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops thâ—ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice but he was repressed by the African Councell Then Gregory the great greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist Lastly Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide And since that hee grew to that height that hee made not only Churches and Kings but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete But see another example Time was when there were no images in Churches As that of Epiphanius proueth who rent a vaile in peeces because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint But in time they were receiued into the Church but no honor giuen them yet after that good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did whom he thus checketh for it In that you forbad them to be worshipped wee commend you but that you brake them we reprehend you Gregor regist lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed that they were not to be broken yea that they were religiously to be worshipped And thus hath it succeeded in other things as S. Paul did foretellâ—e saying The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke 2. Thess 2.7 began to be corrupted and diuers superstitions spread far and neare though the holy Fathers did as much as they could resist 2. Thess 2.7 vntill that mystery of iniquitie which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time spread it selfe o DVR VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously when he did so â—â—â—ell of a departing and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church by all the parts of the Church and at length possessed it wholy Yet Antichrist that man of sinne could neuer preuaile so farre but a great multitude of the Saints remained and those whose names were written in the booke of life did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked superstitions of Antichrist For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it yet many were euer found who worshipped the God of their Fathers and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie And this can histories of all times witnesse which I could now recite if it were needful and reckon vp to you many houses villages townes cities and countries where Christ had many and populous Churches The p DVR This is very false for in the FloreÌ„tine Councell the Emperour Paleolus together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and imbraced the Romane faith yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes or vvhy obey they not the Pope why came they not to the Councell of Trent the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue theÌ„ subiect to him but they stil coÌ„temne him to his no small griefe It is true the Emperour the Patriarke and a multitude of Bishops came to the FloreÌ„tine CouÌ„cel They agreed vvith theÌ„ in many things â—â—â—hers they dissented your TraÌ„substantiation they vtterly renouÌ„ced At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople See you not hovv vvell they agree I haue a booke of yours not of Ieremies neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his for both the Grecianâ— and particularly he hath giuer great approbation of our Churches as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you as euer our Church was And yet you so forge these things as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection Vntill that vnhappy Monke as you say by his incestâ—â—â—â— marriage had defloured a Nunne dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 soleâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 or vntill that quarrelling Swâ—â—â— had câ—â—spired against his country or that infamous â—â—â—â—gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Geâ—â—â—â— So Campian go on to raile and reuile euery good man powre out the gall of your bitternes seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them Luthers name is written in the book of life and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him It is a true saying that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne you call him Monke your selfe is but a Frier now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers But he by incestuous marriage deâ—â—oured 〈◊〉 Nomâ—â—â— dedicated to God by solemne vow q DVR But you goe against S. Paul who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry hauing broken their first saith which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstaÌ„deth by that faith the vow of virginity Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes whom he perswadeth to marry should be taken into that office only such as were threescore yeares old who may well abstaine from marriages follow this calling Now if they be not of this age he sheweth
suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced whatsoeuer they haue decreed heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels Councels not only may erre but also sometimes haue erred In the Artic of Religion Artic. 21. and that in these things which belong to the rule of piety and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation hath no vertus nor authority vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ouâ— of the holy Scriptures Cite you now these words and then contest as you call it your sweet couÌ„try And in like maÌ„ner this your most deare countrie in which you were borne brought vp and graced doth contest intreat and beseech you by all those things which are vnto you most sweeâ—e and best esteemed that you desist any more in this bâ—dde cause to be troublesome vnto her that you will noâ— corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion that you will make more preciouâ— account of her dignity then of a forraine enemie and that you would at length returne thither from whence you haue straâ—ed And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country if you could euen for a litle space lay aside that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome and brought with you hither into England But let vs heare what is this your contestation If say you you will reâ—erence these fourâ— Councels you will chiefely honâ—r the Bishop of the chiefâ— Sâ—â— that is Peter And so do we ascribe great honour vnto Peter and that worthily neither doe we contend with you about him but this affirme that those things which were proper vnto Peter cannot in any wise appertaine to your Pope who was neuer like either Peter or Paul And in truth what madnes is this so insolently to bragge of Peters great vertues when in the meane time you cannot proue that your Popes are indued with any such Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits will thinke that Peters faith piety and all the rest of his vertues haue bin deriued to your Pope by a lineall descent from so many other Popes of whom a great number were not men but monsters This doubtlesse is a grosse dotage and fit to be taken away Quouis helleboro dignum with the mad mans purge and as one saith for those diseases reprehension is the best maâ—â—â—r of cure Should I entitle your Gregoriâ— the 13. who now gouerneth at Rome with the name of Peter doth he teach doth he feed Christs sheepe surely he cannot Doth he performe the duty of an Apostle or of a Bishop nothing lesse How therfore doth he demeane himselfe Sitting in the Vatican he prouoketh to warre moueth seditions armeth subiects against their Princes and filleth the whole world with vproâ—â—â—â— Did Peter thus behaue himselfe is this to be Peter can you deny that these things be true and shall I then yeeld vnto him the like honor that is due to Peter being so vnlike him in conditions But let vs further examine your words You will say you chiefely honor the Bishop of the chiefe Sea that is Peter but by what Councell doe you proue that necessary you alleage the Councell of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chiefe Sea or of Peter neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop then that decree of Nicene Synode for it matcheth all Metropolitanes and Patriarkes in an equall ranke of honor with the Bishop of Rome neither doth it attribute any more to him then vnto the Metropolitanes of Antioch Alexandria and the rest of the other Prouinces If you please you shall heare the words of the Councell Concil Nicen Can. 6. d DVR This cause by you alleadged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Romane Sea ouer all Churches For vvhen as the Fathers to proue the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria alleage the custome of the Church of Rome they shew hereby that Alexandria dependeth vpon Rome as the mother Church froÌ„ which she hath all her authority And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Popes Legat in the Councell of Chalcedon is also proued by the 39. Canon translated out of Arabicke into Latin The same Fathers likevvise assembled at Sardis approued the Supremacy of the Romane Sea WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleadged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon wherin their own proper limits of iurisdiction are assigned to euery Metropolitane For if the Pope should rule ouer the whole Church it had bin absur'd to limit euery one their owne borders wherein they should haue supreame authority according to the custome of the Church of Rome Neither doth this proue the supremacy of the Romish Church because they alleadge her custome and example as you ignorantly inferre seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equall or inferiour as from a superious It is no maruell if Paschasinus being the Popes Legate spake for the supremacy of the Romane Sea neither is his testimony to be regarded being a party Your Arabicke Canon is meerely Arabicke and not Nicene for of this Councel there were only 20. Canons written in Greek and not in the Arabian tongue The Canon of the Councell of Sardis helpeth you not seeing the Councell of Africke testifieth that iâ— was counterfeite Let the ancient custome be in force which was in Aegypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the chiefe dignity ouer all these things because also this was the custome of the Bishop of Rome and in like manner at Antioch and in the rest of the Prouinces let the Primacy and authority be receiued vnto the Churches You see Campian I suppose that no extraordinary prerogatiue hath been giuen to the Bishop of Rome and that his Prouince and Iurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders Ruffin lib. Decimâ— And after this same manner doth Ruffinus if you do not credit vs interpret this Canon This Auncient custome is obserued at Alexandria and in the citie of Rome that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Aegypt and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the cities neire adioyning And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities with which the Nicene Synode hath enioyned him to rest satisfied and hereafter let him not trouble himselfe with the care of our Churches which appertaine not vnto his charge And so you see that if you had been well aduised you would neuer haue mentioned this Councell Act. 4.16 But you adioyne also vnto this the Councell of e DVR The Councell of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Romane Sea that you ca with no shifts auoid it For therein
Dioscorus as for diuer other faults so especially for excommunstating the Pope vvas depriued of Episcopall authority Act. 3. Besides they writ thus to Pope Leo. He exteÌ„deth his madnes against him vnto whom the custody of the vineyard is committed by our Sauiour and against thee who labourest to vnite the body of the Church Againe they desire that their decrees should be confirmed of the same Pope And Paschasinus saith that the Pope of Rome vvhichus head of all the Churches depriued him because as Lucentius addeth hee presumed to call a Councell vvithout the authority of the Apostolike Sea WHIT. pag. 302. This councell is so far from confirming the Popes supremacy that it plainly ouerthroweth it for though Pope Leo with all earnestnes opposed against the honor and dignity of the Bishop of Constantinople yet he obteinâ—â— of the Councell that degree of honor which he desired which he could not haue done if the Councell had acknovvledged the Popes supremacy Concerning Dioscorus he was depriued for many notable crimes as murther blasphemy against the Trinity burglary adultery and excommunicating the Pope and you make this last a speciall cause of his depriuation as though it were a more heinous crime then murther adultery and blasphemy Therein aduauncing your Pope as your manner is aboue the blessed Trinity The committing of the vineyard to Peter maketh nothing for your Pope who is not Peter nor any thing like him Proue that it was committed to the Pope and you say something The confirmation of the decrees was not a thing proper to the Pope but also appertained to the other Patriarckes and Metropolitanes yea to the Emperors Paschasinus and Lucentius accusing Dioscorus say not a word of the Popes supremacy although they were the Popes Legates And whereas he calleth Rome the head of all the Churches his meaning was that it was the first greatest and most famous Church Chalcedon that thereby you may proue that the chiefe honour is to be ascribed vnto the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is vnto Peter I graunt Campian that this sea in time past was had in the chiefe place of honour and I know very well that the chiefe dignitie was attributed to the Bishop of this sea the reason whereof you may easilie perceiue out of the selfe same Councell For this was not done by any commaundement of Christ that the Church of Rome should excell in dignitie all other Churches of the world but the Fathers testifie that the cause why that Citie was inuested with greater priuiledge than others was this because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire You may finde the words themselues in the same acte which you cite Act. 16. But if as you say the Church of Rome ought to haue the preheminence aboue all other Churches in the world in diuine authoritie what then ment the Chalcedonian Fathers to affirme that there were some prerogatiues graunted vnto that Church for this cause alone in that Rome was the head of the Empire and therefore they thought that the Bishop of that Citie which was the Empresse of the world was worthie of some more honour than others And this honour to speake of was onely this that the Bishop of Rome should haue the preheminence of place in Councels the prioritie of speech in deliuering his opinion and the precedence in rancke and place And thus neither doe we our selues now much enuie this honour to the Romane Bishop but that if so it please him he may enioy it so that he doe not because he hath the chiefe place imperiouslie tyranize ouer his brethren as he hath done for many ages and perswadeth himselfe that he may doe it lawfully But seeing it pleaseth you to obiect vnto vs the CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon that you may challenge the chiefe honor as due to your Bishop of the chiefe Sea before I proceed further I would gladly you should resolue me in this question why the f DVR This was not the iudgement of the whole CouÌ„cell but of certeine men Neither did the Constantinopolitanes require that their Sea should be of equall authority with the Sea of Rome but that it should haue the like soueraignty in Ecclesiasticall matters and obtainâ— the next place to it WHIT. pag. 306. This was the iudgment of the whole Councell except the Popes owne Legates Paschasinus Bonefacius and Lucentius who in vaine opposed for the decree runneth thus These things we all say these things please vs all And contrary to your assertion these Fathers decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should be matched in equall priuiledge with the Bishop of Rome which equality of priuiledges cannot stand with the vnequality of authority Neither did prioritie of place proue that the Bishop of Rome had any priority of authoritie sâ—â—ing this was only for orders sake otherwise by the same reason the Bishop of ConstaÌ„tinople should haue had the like authority ouer the Bishop of Alexandriâ— because he sate aboue him Fathers of this Councell made the Sea of Constantinople equall to the Sea of Rome for so they decree and diffinitiuely determine that seeing great priuiledges were graunted to the Church of Rome in respect of the Empire of the citie they thought it a matter of great equity that the new Rome that was now graced with the Empire and Senate should enioy the same priuiledges which old Rome had done And although the Bishop of Rome did most earnestly contend and labour that the Bishop of Constantinople might not be made his equall yet he could not by his best meanes effect his desire but that the decree of the Councell preuailed which had equalised the Bishop of Constantinople with the Bishop of Rome And therefore me thinkes you haue but ill defended the honor and dignity of your Bishop when you alleadge the decree of that Councell Moreouer the Councell of g DVR The filth Canon of the Councell of Constantinople ascribed greater honor to the Romane Sea then to any other WHIT. pag. 311. This honor was only of precedence and place and not of authority as plainly appeareth in the words of the Councell it selfâ— Chap. â—8 and in that the like prerogatiue was graunted in the next place to the Bishop of Constantinople and therefore by the like reason he might â—rrogâ—â—â— authority ouer the whole Church Constantinople which you also cite Canon 5. decreed no other thing for the Romane Sea then that the Bishop of Constantinople should haue the prerogatiue of honor next to the Bishop of Rome And this we also confesse that in times past the Prouinces were so distributed that Rome had the chiefe Constantinople the next and so euery one in their owne order But what maketh that to this cause which we haue now in hand For this is not the honor which the Bishop of Rome challengeth vnto himselfe this not the height of power and maiestie which he so often arrogateth Ephes Conc. in Epist ad Nestor The Councell also of h DVR
In the Councell of Ephesus diuers things are conteined vvhich approue the supremacy of the Sea of Rome c. WHIT. pag. 313. Campian cited the Epistle of the Councell to Nestorius wherein there is nothing which any way fauoureth the Popes supremacy the which you perceiuing do rake together other fragments concerning things which are not in controuersie and leaue out those points which make against you Ephesus is alleadged by you with as litle reason seeing it ascribeth nothing to the Bishop of Rome which did not also agree to other Bishops for if you take hold on this that Celestinus the Bishop of Rome was called the holy president most reuerend Father because he threatned to excommunicate Nestorius vnlesse he abiuted his heresie these things are coÌ„mon vnto the Bishop of Rome with others neither was he only intitled reuerend neither could hee alone pronounce iudgment against heretikes But if these would rather please you This is the faith of the Catholike and Orthodoxall Church vnto which all the Orthodoxall Bishops giue their assent you interpret these words amisse For in these words all the Orthodoxall Bishops are said not to assent to the Church but to the faith and that faith which the Fathers in those their letters embraced all Orthodoxall Bishops in euery place haue approued and we also do defend But what now followeth in your contestation Thou wilt say you acknowledge the vnbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ on the Altar And for this you cite the 14. Canon of the Nicence CouÌ„cell in which there is not so much as any mention made neither of vnbloody nor of i DVR The word Sacrifice is in the 14. Canon of the Nicene Councell And in the institutions of this Councell it is said that the Lambe of God is on the holy table which is offered of the Priests without blood c. WHIT pag. 316. It is not to be found in the words of the Councell in the Greeke but they are your words of the TraÌ„slator And coÌ„cerning the institutioÌ„s their authority was alwaies doubtfull in the Church neither do they make for you seeing we grant that in the right vse of the Sacrament we receiue the Lambe of God Sacramentally sacrifice nor of Altar But Deacons are there prohibited to arrogate so much vnto themselues that Bishops or Priests being present they should take vpon them to administer the Sacrament of the Lords supper because it was not lawfull for Deacons to deliuer the Lords body vnto Priests Now it is an vsuall thing to call bread the Lords body because it is a Sacrament of the Lords body neither in the meane time do I deny that the supper of the Lord is called by many of the k DVR The testimonies of the Fathers which you alleadge vvherein the Sacrament is called an vnbloody sacrifice make nothing for you seeing that vvith them is called vnbloody not that is vvithout blood but vvithout effusion of blood WHIT pag. 318. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnbloody vsed by them signifieth such a thing as hath no blood in it If therefore this be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an vnbloody sacrifice as the Fathers call it then it is a Sacrifice without blood and not only without shedding of blood Againe if it be a sacrifice wherin no blood is spilt then is it not the sacrifice of Christ for in this blood was shed nor any true sacrifice for there is no sacrifice that hath blood without the shedding therof Heb. 9.22 auncient Fathers an vnbloody sacrifice both because wee retaine the mysteries of Christs death without any blood also offer vp praises thanksgiuing as it were for sacrifices vnto God and therefore Cyrill ioyneth in the supper these together vnbloody sacrifices and praises Cyril ad Regin Eusebius de Demon. lib. 1. And Eusebius writeth that we build an Altar to the Lord of vnbloody and reasonable sacrifices according to the new mysteries Now if you aske what manner of vnbloody sacrifice this is let Eusebius himself answer you in his own words He hath deliuered vnto vs a l DVR Eusebius doth not call it a sacrifice because it is a sole bare memoriall of the new Testament as you suppose but because vvee offer an vnbloody socrifice for a memoriall of a bloody sacrifice WHIT. pag. 323. Neither doe I affirme it for this is not a bare memoriall seeing the thing it selfe thereby signified is therin coÌ„teined in the right vse of it But withall I deny that this memoriall is the same sacrifice which Christ offered as you would haue it for how can a sacrifice be the self same with it of which it is a memorial If therfore this be an vnbloody sacrifice theÌ„ it is not the Sacrifice which Christ offered which was bloody the memorial of no other sacrifice See Eus de Demon. l. 1. memoriall of his death which we offer vnto him in place of a Sacrifice Again you propound the eleuenth act of the Councell of Chalcedon which conteineth nothing at all which appertaineth to this matter in hand neither that place of Socrates which you quote Lib. 1. cap. 8 You might haue dealt better and more simply if you would haue cited the words themselues and not only quoted vncertaine and confused notes in the margent but you feared lest you might haue bin too easily discouered vnles you had masked your selfe vnder the vizard of deceite But let vs examine the remainder of your contestation Thou wilt pray say you vnto the Martyrs and all the Saints that they would mediate for thee vnto Christ Thou wilt restraine effeminate Apostataes from wicked copulation Whether the Martyrs and heauenly Saints pray vnto Christ for vs or no m DVR You caÌ„not be ignorant of this that the Saints pray for vs if in the doctrine of faith you insist in the steps of the Fathers WHIT. p. 328. We are ignoraÌ„t therof because there is no such thing coÌ„teined in the Canonical Scriptures which should not haue bin omitted if the spirit of God had thought this knowledge necessary Neither is it conâ—â—ouersed what the Fathers thought of it not doth it follow because they haue care of vs they pray for vs neither if they do pray therefore we should pray vnto them we know not but certaine it is that they are n DVR We knovv the blessednes of the Saints in heauen and therefore they are not ignorant of our misery in earth Againe Christ hath reueiled vnto the Saints liuing on the earth diuine and heauenly things and therefore he reueileth to the Saints in heauen vvhat is done in earth WHIT. pag 330. Although we generally know that the Saints in heauen are blessed yet we know not their particular state their actions the manner degree of their happines and therefore if your argument be good it confuteth your self seeing therfore it followeth that they likwise are ignorant of our particular state actions Moreouer Christ
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
profitable and fruitfull Finally what is a Christian life but that which is spent in the duties of charity for all Christians are bound vnto these duties Then notwithstanding all these Gregorie is still with vs. Nazianzen de haer Philosoph Nazianzene speaketh no lesse honourablie of this ciuill and sociable life than of the solitarie life of Monkes which your cloister men cannot indure Ambros in Rom. cap. 1. r DVR Ambrose codemneth suffragators not intercessors that is such as might informe God what we are not such as might commeÌ„d our vvants to him WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants without an intercessor as what we are without a suffragator If he do why should the one be allowed more then the other This new distinction of yours I thinke our Vniuersity men neither know not wil acknowledge or what is intercessioÌ„ but a suffragation or what do you els desire of the Saints but that they would speake fauourablie for you to God Ambrose enueigheth bitterly against them who thinke it necessary for them when they would goe to God to vse some mediatours as men doe in courts of Princes before they can bee brought to the King himselfe they must seeke the fauour of some of his neere attendants Doth not this thing touch you doth not this speech draw blood of you who neuer aske any thing of God in your prayers but first you seeke some of the Saints to bee a mediatour for you to whom you commend the care of your businesse and requests Hieron Ep. Å¿ DVR Hierome neuer vvriteth thus but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest and a Deacon as was betwixt Aaron and his sonnes and the Leuites Epist ad Euagr. And if there be equality it is in iurisdiction not in povver of order WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely that the Apostle doth plainly teach that a Bishop and a Priest are all one and this he proueth by many testimonies of the Scripture And vpon the 1. chap. to Titus hee affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is aboue a Priest by custome not by Gods ordinance And so must that be vnderstood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle And where you acknowledge the same iurisdiction of both by the law of God which happely slipped from you vnawares their vnequall power must needs be only by the law of man Hierome did too much contemne your Pope and other your glorious Bishops when hee writeth that a Priest and a Bishop by the law of God are all one doe you iudge him worthy to bee a Father of the Romish Church the Bishop whereof you make not onely to be farre aboue all Priests but also all Bishops t DVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it least any of the Manichies vvho superstitiously and vvickedly abstained from blood might looke among the Catholikes WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answere though your Gratian bee against it But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause who make the Manichies the first author of the dismembring of the Supper But whosoeuer did it Gelatius censureth it thus The diuision of one and the same mystery cannot bee without great sacriledge And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacriledge Gelasius who himselfe was a Bishop of Rome condemneth your drie and maimed supper as Sacrilegious and strictly commandeth De consecrat dist 2. Comperimus Vigil lib. 1. cont Eutych that either the whole be receiued or it be wholly omitted Will the authoritie of the Pope moue you no whit at all Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from vs in his humane nature u DVR Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrevv from the vvorld the visible presence of his humanity and not the humane nature himselfe WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after shew the cleane contrary He therfore is vvith vs and not vvith vs because whom he left and from whom he departed in his humanity he hath not left nor forsaken in his Diuinity And againe in lib. 4. contr Eutych vvhen he vvas in the earth hee vvas not in heauen and novv that he is in heauen hee is not in the earth And againe hee vvas circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature and not conteined in a place according to his Diuinity this is the Catholike confession and faith vvhich the Apostles haue deliuered the Martyrs haue confirmed and the faithfull haue kept to this day If this be the Catholike faith then are not you Catholikes vvho iudge farre otheâ—vvise of the humanity of Christ The Sonne of God in his humane nature is gone from vs but in his diuine nature hee is alwayes with vs whereas you say Christ is present in both natures * DVR Chrysostome because hee savv many so addicted and giuen to theaters stage plaies and impious Interludes did thus admonish them lest they should distast the reading of the Scriptures WHIT pag. 458. Be it so haue you also no impious places and spectacles and prophane exercises And yet vvith you any thing is lawfull saue reading of the Scriptures But vvho so readeth Chrysostome in Ioan. hom 13. in Epist. ad Coloss hom 9. de Lazaro hom 3. shall find that he required this simplie necessarily and generally of all men Chrysostome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles Chrysost ad Coloss hom 9. in Ioan. hom 8. reade the Scriptures and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife the father with his children would conferre among themselues of the Scriptures But this neither can nor lawfully may be done in your Church yea it is a certaine proofe of an heretique for any to haue the Bible in his house What shall I say of Augustine who in the greatest and most principall controuersies as of grace predestination free will iustification the Scripture the Law the Gospel sinne good workes Sacraments and Church is wholly and fully ours I should neuer make an end if I should pursue particulars and collect but a little of euery thing Gregor lib. 4. Epist. 30. 34. Gregory the great though he was a Bishop of Rome yet will he take our part against you For tell mee doth hee not touch your Pope to the quicke when peremptorily he affirmed that whosoeuer should call himselfe the x DVR Gregory condemned Iohn because he sought for such an authority ouer all Bishops as the Emperour had ouer the Kings vvho are subiect vnto them WHIT. pag. 460. Whether Iohn of Constantinople sought such a povver or no it is not certaine but no man can be ignorant how the Pope affecteth it And long ago hath not only got authority ouer the Bishops but hath subdued the Emperour
himselfe which Iohn of Constantinâ—ple neuer once assayed to do Gregory telleth vs what he meaneth by vniuersall Bishop he vvho endeuoureth to bring into subiection to himselfe all the members of Christ by the title of vniuersall Whereby he toucheth home your Pope who subiecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head neither did euer any Emperour rule more tyrannously ouer his Kings and vassals then the Pope hath ouer the Bishops of all Churches vniuersall Bishop vndoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome Iohn of Constantinople being a proud man and very insolent and ambitious first challenged this vnto himselfe Gregory while hee liued earnestly and constantly withstood him And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople and giuen to the Bishop of Rome Leaue trifling Campian and euen tell me plainely y DVR VVho seeth not in vvhat sense thâ—se Bishops of Rome vvould not this name vnto themselues though they alwaies professed them Bishops of the vniuersall and Catholike Church and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not meane to be vnderstood of any who speake on this manner but tell vs is the Pope vniuersall Bishop or no If he be how commeth the change that that which was Antichristian in the Patriarke of Constantinople by the iudgement of Pelagius Gregorie both Bishops of Rome should be Catholike and holy in the Pope For that which so insolently Iohn of Constantinople tooke vnto himselfe and enioyed for a while not long after Boniface the third earnestly tooke vnto himselfe and translated to his successors as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. Sabellicus Ennead 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca They then haue not only the thing but the name and so are Antichristian if that name in the Bishop of Constantinople was a signe of the approching of Antichrist why may wee not iudge it in the Bishop of Rome a notable ensigne of the same Antichrist now I haue giuen you a taste by which you may iudge other things you must either get you other fathers or for all these you must needes yeeld as ouercome Doe wee at length speake without riddles what is it you els desire of vs wherefore Campian get you into this campe and shew forth all your valour you shall verily finde you haue to deale not with naked and vnarmed beggars but with well appointed and well harnessed aduersaries EDMVND CAMPIAN The seauenth Reason which is the Historie THe auncient Histories of former times do plainly discouer the true forme of the Primitiue Church thither doe I appeale as for the auncient Historiographers Generales Historici whose authority all the aduersaries doe sometime vsurpe these are well nigh all of them Eusebius Damasus Hierome Ruffinus Orosas Socrates Sozomenus Theodoretus Cassiodorus Gregory of Tours Oswaldus Regino Marianus Sigibertus Sonoras Cedrenus Nicephorus What song I pray you doe these men sing a song in praise of Catholikes of their prosperous proceedings of their interchangeable alterations what enemies they had yea moreouer which I would haue you wel to mark these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake HareticoruÌ„ Chronica Historica Anno Dom. 1500. to wit Philip Melangthon Pantalion Functius and the Magdeburgeans when they went about to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiasticall History they should haue had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. yeares after Christ except they had gathered together the acts of those men that take our part and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church Consider also the particular Historiographers of some speciall countries Historici certarum Gentium who bended themselues curiously and busily to search out the speciall affaires of euery such people as they vndertooke to write of These as men desirous by all meanes they possibly could to enrich and beautifie that worke they had in hand omitted not so much as banquetting feasts or long sleeued coates or strange haftes of daggers or gilded spurres and such like trifles but they made mention thereof if it had any smacke of noueltie These men doubtlesse if there had been any alteration in religion or any digression from their former faith which was in the Primitiue Church that had come to their eares many of theÌ„ would haue recorded it if not many yet some few of them at the least if not some few yet some one or other doubtlesse would haue made mention thereof * This is false for many haue made mention of the corruption of the Church But no body at all neither friend nor foe made any muttering or gaue any inkling of any such matter As for example sake the aduersaries grant because they cannot otherwise chuse that the Church of Rome was once an holy Catholike and Apostolike Church euen then when it deserued these commendations of a Rom. 1. S. Paul Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world I cease not to remember you in my prayers I b Rom. 15. know that when I come vnto you I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of c Rom. 16. Christ All the Churches of Christ do greet you for your obedience is spread abroad in all places Then also when S. Paul hauing free d Act. 28. liberty of the prison there preached the Gospell abroad Then also when S. Peter gouerned the Church gathered together long agoe in that Citie of Rome which hee called by the e 1. Pet. 5. name of Babylon * Campian acknowledgeth that Rome is Bayblon The wheÌ„ that same S. f Hieron in cap. semp Eccl. Papias apud Eâ—sâ—b 2. Hist. 15. Clement whom the g Philip. 4. Apostle so highly commendeth was chiefe head of that Church then also when h Fren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Inst lib. 4. cap. 2. num 3. in Epist ad Sadol vide Coâ—l in Anno 1523. Heathen Emperours as Domitian Nero Traiane and Antonius most cruelly murthered the Bishops of Rome Then also * This is false Caluin testifieth no such thing Caluin himselfe doth witnes * This is false Caluin testifieth no such thing when Damasus Syticius Anastasius and Innocentius were gouernours of the Sea Apostolike For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swarued especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospell At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul when fainted faith which before so flourished In what age vnder what Pole vpon what occasion by whose compulsion by whose power hath a new strange Religion inuaded not only that citie of Rome but the whole world besides what outcries what rufflings what weeping and wailing hath it caused were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleepe while Rome I say Rome brought forth
was Bishop and by what proceedings it increased You Romanisâ— condemne the Greeke Church and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours c DVR You require an easie thing for the authors of the heresies of the Greeke Church vve can easily number out of their stories Samosatenus Eutyches Sergius Arrius Nestorius Macedonius and such like WHIT. pag. 486. It is a vvonder that you vvill obiect these heresies vnto the Greeke Church vvhen you cannot bee ignorant but that moe and more horrible heresies sprung vp in the Romish Church and almost in the middest of Rome For Valentinus Marcion Cerdon Florentius Blasius Tatianus Nouatus Pelagius Julianus Celestinus and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome If you ansvvere the Latin Church condemned these I can ansvvere so for the Greeke Church And if you thinke you haue obiected vvell in numbring certeine heresies of the Greeke Church you may thinke I haue ansvvered asvvell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church Declare now vnto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church which you demaund for your owne Poynt out the time the Bishop and the growth of their Apostasie As the alteration of these Churches was then easie to bee discerned when it first beganne though now it be very hard to finde out those circumstances so we see plainely a great change in the Church of Rome yet can we not certainely pronounce the seuerall times of their seuerall declining Many are manifest which were too long to rehearse and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons The case was with the Church of Rome as we see it is in a great building for as a house which is strongly built at the first continueth so of it selfe a long time after sound and whole but if for a time it be left and neglected it beginneth in some place to decay and to bee full of chinkes which in time waxe big by degrees till they threaten ruine to the posts and roofes themselues and at length by this meanes the whole building is ruinated and falleth downe so the Romane Church in processe of time declined from her auncient estate and by the infection of error and superstition daily preuailing at length shee lost the very spirit and life of the Church Eusebius reporteth that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus had written of the Church that she was whilest the Apostles liued a chaste and vndefiled Virgin For then they that would haue altered the holy paterne of sound doctrine did it faintly and fearefully not daring to creepe out of their holes d DVR O horrible fact ó intolerable vvickednes vvith vvhat face can you thus speak if you remember hovv Christ promised his spouse perpetuall preseruation Hose 2.20 Isa 59.21 Psal 131.17 and such like WHIT pag. 4â—8 If your arguments vvere as great as your outeries vvho could deale vvith you That the Church may be corrupted see these places Matth. 13.25 1. Cor. 5.6 2. Cor. 11.3 Isay 1.21 Gal. 1.6 and 2.1 Further vvhat haue I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. 10. haue not before time vvritten And vvhen I vvrit these things I remembred vvell those promises and many other of that kind But I knovv that they belong to the Church of the elect and hinder not but that particular Churches may bee corrupted by error and false doctrine DVR Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates but from Hegesippus vvho called the Church a Virgin because heretikes as yet had not openly opposed her and corrupted the seates of the Apostles and did not say that shee vvas corrupted after them WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great vvhich of them spake the vvords for vvhosoeuer shall vvergh the vvords shall see that the sense of them is as I haue said And if the Church vvas euer to remaine a chast and pure Virgin hovv foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin or vvhat may his meaning bee else then that the Apostles being dead she began to be corrupted vvhich the vvords follovving proue vvhen that age vvas ouerpassed then she began to be corrupted vvith impious error Yea and vvhen you say that as yet heretikes had not assaulted her nor inuaded the tents of the Apostles either you say nothing or you graunt that after the Apostles time they did assault her and preuaile against her But after that the Apostles departed vnto the heauenly mansions and none of that age left that had been hearers of Christ himselfe neither any of the Apostles liuing then began abhominable error to gather strength and openly in the Churches to aduaunce it selfe What more pregnant testimonie of antiquitie and historie can you desire Whilest the Apostles liued the Church was a Virgin assoone as they were dead she became corrupted and the mischiefe no doubt in time increased and spread it selfe abroade But I woonder that this e DVR Nay rather if hee were liuing hee would wonder at your foâ—lie who are either so ignorant or so forgetfull that you obserue not hovv Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new coÌ„trouersie about the cele bration of the Passeouer WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policie you passe ouer this place in silence without answere and tel vs a tale of another different thing which affordeth vs a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greeke Churches dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter and would not follow the custome of the Pope and Romish Church though the Pope sought it by all meanes who can doubt but that this supreame power of the Pope ouer all Churches vnder Christ as his Vicar was vnknowne and vnheard of among them Polycrates was either so ignorant or forgetfull that hee considered not this that the Pope of Rome was left vnto the Church in the Apostles roomes to defend this Virgin and preserue her chastitie Why calleth hee the Church a Virgin Because the Apostles were liuing by whom her audacious aduersaries were alwaies discouraged and discomforted But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope or else shee needes him not at all But Polycrates although there were none left to preserue the puritie of this Virgin bewaileth her want as you see which surely had been vnaduifedly done if his opinion had been that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline and inclined to the apostasie which the Apostle did foretell should be and we see now fulfilled Then those Wolues of whom the Apostle did forewarne Act. â—0 19 came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flocke Then those Antichrists whereof Iohn affirmeth some were in his time 1. Ioh. â— 18 began to vndertake the worke which after was perfected and accomplished I might heere shew you many euident tokens of your
Churches Apostasie out of these your owne Chronicles they are no secrets but such as any man that will reade and obserue may easilie discerne And since you call vs vnto Histories f DVR Two things here are of which you would persvvade the Reader one that the Fathers of the Councell allovved not that vvhich the Pope affected by his Legates another that the Legates did malitiously produce a forged Canon What vvould you doe if you could find any thing of vvaight in any storie against vs WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader and what can any storie afford vs more solide and perspicuous for whether you respect the aâ—â—bition and fraud not vsed in former times by the Bishops of Rome or the authority of the Councell or that famous sentence giuen against the Bishops of Rome there is no man so ignorant and vnexperienced but he will confesse that they enacted and decreed a great matter and of no smale importance I will put you in mind of one thing related in an auncient storie consider it well whether it touch your Pope or no and then answere fully concerning the whole matter A Councell was assembled in Africke of 217. Concil Carthag 6. cap. 3.1.7.9 Bishops whereof Augustine himselfe was one the glorie and starre of Africke I will set downe the story briefly Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates which should perswade the Fathers of Africke that appeales might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops The Legates make relation hereof vnto the Fathers and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice wherein the priuiledge was recorded the Fathers wonder at this new decree and answere the Legates that they neuer saw any such Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin and that as they thought the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage which was himselfe present at that Councell had brought into Africke notwithstaÌ„ding they determine to send to Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch such as might receiue the true and naturall copies from the Bishops of those cities The Popes Legates would faine haue stayed them from sending but could not Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria and Atticus of Constantinople deliuer vnto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk wherin they do auouch that those copies were most true and sincere Concil Afâ—â—c Can. 105. Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no such thing can be found so they writ to Celestine then Pope and command him to surcease from making any such claime euer after and not to send abroad his Collectors lest thereby they may seeme to bring the presumptuous smokie pride of the world into the Church of Christ The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily but perforce for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the second in an Epistle vnto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage which was now President of the African Councell and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes whereof Augustine was the chiefe were all moued by the deuill to withstand the Church of Rome thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatikes Aurelius of Carthage other the African Bishops yea and Augustine himselfe among the rest because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage he giueth him great thankes because he made friendship with the Church of Rome that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke These things I haue related out of their truest records and of this kind I could rehearse many more so little cause haue you to promise your selfe much helpe out of Historie Hence may bee perceiued what the purpose and endeuour of the Bishops of Rome haue bin these many yeares viz. to make themselues Lords of all Churches which also at length they obtained But because you aske the question and desire answere when Rome lost her faith so much commended and what that which once was ceased to be I may truly affirme that though in many things she had made shipwracke of faith before yet theÌ„ did it begin to be the seate of Antichrist when Phocas the murderer granted vnto Boniface the third that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches and the Bishop of Rome should be called Vniuersall Bishop I will not too curiously search into the moments of times a mischiefe creepeth priuily for a time vnespied of men But the common opinion which men conceiued of those times was that Gregory the great was the last good and the first ill Bishop of Rome He was no better then he should be and all that succeeded him were starke nought euery one striuing to goe beyond his predecessor in all lewdnes so that now a sincke of all wickednes hath violently burst into the Church and hath possessed all the parts therof You force me Campian to open the sores of your Church which I had rather not touch but you are so vnreasonable that you neither spare vs nor your selues Barnard who was the only religious man your Church had for many yeares how often and how grieuously doth he bewaile the most desperat estace of your Church g DVR Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church but of the manners of the vvicked and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder vvhat was in your mind when you confesse that the manners of your predecessors were such as he describeth both heere and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor vvalke decked vvith much pretious apparell If I durst speaze it these are rather paâ—â—ors for diuels then for Christs sheepe Your Court vsually receiueth good men but maketh sevv good There the vvicked are not made better but the good farre worse A number of such places I could alledge out of him neither bewailâ—th lâ—ethe mixture of the bad as you say but the perishing of the good and the ruâ—ne of the Church A shamefull contagion spreaâ—â—â—h ouer the body of the whole Church Bernard in Cant. Ser. 33 De conuer Pauli the seruants of Christ serue Antichrist From the sole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is sound With these and the like speeches vsed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church which he would neuer haue done without sufficient reason mouing thereunto Aeneas Syluius ad Casparem Schlik Aeneas Syluius afterwards Pope writeth that charity was waxed cold and faith vtterly gone and what manner of Church shall we iudge this to haue been when shee had lost both faith and charity But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice vnto the Church and that after hee changing his opinion when of Aeneas he was made Pius for that was euer his vsuall speech Cast
away Aeneas take Pius What shal I further recite Petrarch Mantuan and other Poets both learned and famous which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie all things were then so out of order that all sinnes might without controulâ—â—ent both be practised and openly blamed I need not to seeke farre remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine not many yeares agoe at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you though of it selfe it bee little worth Thus he saith Cornel. Bicontin in concil Crident Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition from faith to infidelity from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme Behold the Marks of your Church suâ—â—â—stition infidelity Antichrist Epicure for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter But Campian the more you defend the integrity of your Church the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it Our aduersaries say you doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church This we confesle and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise which you remember and yet those praises by you mentioned doe not belong to that Church alone but were giuen also to other Churches Rom. 1. â— For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica 1. Thess 1.8 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing Rom. 1.9 so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians 1. Thess 1.3 What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ Rom. 15.29 thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull Rom. 16.19 What if all Churches saluted the Romanes and their obedience was euery where spoken of know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this But we grant you that at this time it was holy what would you more Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint This also wee grant what more 1. Pet. 5.13 And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there calling it Babylon We deny not this And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon for I doubt not but it is the same of which h DVR Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the saith of Christ aâ—d persecuted Christians WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. Jâ—â—n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist for when â—e wâ—â—teth Apoc 18. â— who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation the mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth yet I cannot be so easily perswaded that i DVR Yet Oecumenius Hierome Eusebius Tertullian to say nothing of others do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome is as if you should doubt whether euer Romulus Iulius Caeser or Pompeie was there For if Cyprian Eusebius Doâ—oâ—heus Epiphanius Optatus Hicrom and many others may not be beleeued vvhat shall euer be certeine in any History WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied for I desire authority of Scriptures not the opinions of men I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well That whereas the whole gouernment Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men as vpon a rotten threed for what if many Histories say he was there if the Scripture say no such thing what assurance can be of it for matter of faith the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there But who knoweth not that that which one deliuereth at the first may increase by fame and be by many reserued to posterity At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome and him haue many followed since and hence from the common rumors and suspiâ—ions of men sprung vp the Popes chairâ— And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing when there is no place of Scripture for it nay when many places are against it These specially Galat. 2.7.9 Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome for so many yeares it vvas against both his order of life and his faith Act. 28.22.23 Novv they could not be so ignorant if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Epâ—stles and in them spake of many of the brethren but neuer once named S. Peter supole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church Galat. 2.1.2 But he ought rather to haue been at Rome as a good Bishop ought to be vvith his flocke vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar Besides the Histories themselues are in such â—ariety of opinions that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv some say he came â—o Rome in the first yeare of Claudâ—us the Emperour some in the second some in the fouâ—â—â— and some in the tenth yeare and it may be that none of these is true sure it is all cannot be true Peter meanes Rome in this place here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus could yet neuer proâ—ue that Peter was at Rome But you take this for granted and as alreadie prooued which if any man once deny then like the Mathematicians you haue done and can goe no further But why may I not reasonably think that Peter meaneth that Babylon which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assiâ—ians in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes Galat. 2.9 vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause I feare I should trie your patience too much In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon and hereafter at your leisure you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered You may not now bee angrie with vs if following Peters example from hencefoorth wee also call Rome Babylon Now I hope at length you will rest and be
satisfied Nay but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded Then when Clemens gouerned the Church then also when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome Euen then I confesse Rome was an excellent Church of Christ Will this content you Nay further you say Then also when Damasus Siricius Anastasius Innocentius executed the Apostolike function This is not to discend by degrees but to leape for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much Because Caluin as you say frankly confesseth Iâ—st lib. 4. cap. 2. sâ—ct 3 Epist ad Sadâ—l that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell Doe not you Campian catch hold of that which no man will giue you nor be too confident of others liberalitie Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted therefore you must redeliuer it Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers when they alleaged the succession of Bishops was not to proue those to be true Churches where Bishops succeeded one another but this first they assumed as most certaine that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages whereof they speake there was no alteration in religion and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church Caluin then saith not that they had k DVR Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ vvhich swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine vvhat can be spâ—ken more absurdly WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe for vvâ—â— not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors the Church of God The Corinthians and Galathians when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches 1 Cor. 1.2 Gal. 1.2 which he would not haue done if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors altered nothing in any point of faith but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell that Caluin neuer confessed and wee constantly denie To say nothing of the rest Thus l DVR This error is common to you and many of your felloâ—es for Syricius vvas not the first vve haâ—e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhich numbreth this among the Apostolike trâ—ditions Carthag 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemenâ— it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests waâ— not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood Epiphan hâ—â—rel 59. And Hierome against Viâ—ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life yet none was compelled by law against his will and as for the Councell of Carthage it was held in the time of this Syricius And so not before him for your Clemeâ—s you knovv hee is of no vvorth but a meere counterfeite That you report of the Grecians is incredible vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this snare Hierome indeed produceth an old custome but no Apostolike nor yet perpetuall custome Syricius swarued from the doctrine of the Gospell when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie and this doubtlesse was no small digression but a plaine departing froÌ„ the m DVR VVhat Catholike euer said that marriage was euill S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes and other heretikes of that sort WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my ansvvere is easie your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Ministers from marriage vsed those reasons vvhich either condemned marriages simplie or els they conclude nothing For vvhen they thus reason Priests may not marrie because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord and the Chappell of the holy Ghost therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes because they ought to be holy because they shall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiscence and to the vncleane all things are vncleane because they vvho are in the flesh cannot please God What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill impure and vvicked Make these then no Catholikes or else your question is ansvvered To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only is absurde as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times yea and he hath taxed not those only vvho condemne marriage but vvho forbid them vvhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth Apostolike doctrine 1. Tim. 4.3 Heb. 13.4 Now at length you make a stay and pursue the histories of the Church no further only you demaund when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone For this is as cleere and without question as that the present citie of Rome is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome So if you would now in the present n DVR VVhat impudencie is this there vvas neuer heresie that assaulted this Church of vvhich it caried not the victorie As ouer the Donatists Iouinian Pelagius the Britaine and others WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches and stand to that I haue saide The Church of Rome vvhich once flourished is novv so oppressed vvith Antichrist that besides the outvvard face image countenance of a Church a vaine pompe there is nothing else left in it There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith pestiferous leaued no Sacrament but polluted vvith sacriledge and corruption no discipline but Antichristian I passe not for your Popes chaire your Colledge of Cardinals the glorie of your Bishops your Priests Monkes Temples riches nothing moue me I search for a liuing Church not bare walles for a man not a picture for a body not a shadow as for your criumphes you boast of they are no more proper to the true Church then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus Anniball Perses Antiochus are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being Finally as for Pelagius he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome For
troubled thoughts But holy men diligently prepared themselues and so came to this Sacrament hauing quiet minds free froÌ„ guilt of sinne And in the Primitiue times they who had fallen were not admitted to the Eucharist but after coÌ„fession full satisfaction made for their sins And then a Deacon was wont to crie Holy things are for holy men WHIT. pag. 718. You haue not tasted what true faith is if you thinke all sorrowes doubts are remoued so soone as faith is begotten The Prophet often remembreth his sorrowes Psal 42.5.6 32.4 And this all the faithfull haue experience of and yet are vpheld by their faith They are the best prepared who haue the greatest sorrowes for their sins and in the word and Sacrament seeke a salue for them For wherefore was the supper ordained but to strengthen and confirme our faith Therfore the best prepared haue many temptations and sorrowes in themselues The custome of the Church proueth nothing against this For will you account them wicked and prophane whose consciences are frighted with the sense and bitter sorrowes for their sinnes So shall you wickedly condemne the most holie seruants of God Only they do rightly receiue the Lords Supper who bring sorrowful afflicted coÌ„founded consciences And so it is indeed for they are no right receiuers who trusting to their owne merits come audaciously but they who heing opprested with the greatues of their sinnes Psal 51.19 doe desire to bee eased For they which are whole desire not the Physitian A contrite and broken hart is an acceptable sacrifice to God wherefore they which haue greatest feeling of their sinnes and sorrow for them to them that heauenly food is wont to bee most wholesome Good Lord who would euer thinke it might come to passe that anie Christian should dislike these things But is there any thing else x DVR VVho knoweth not that the Nouatians vvere condemned of the vvhole Church for denying this authoritie to the Priests And that it vvas an old custome of the Church as Tertullian hath it that penitentials vvere sent to none but to the Priests to whom as Ambrole Hierome Chrysostome writ the keyes and power of binding and loosing are committed WHIT. pag. 720. That you speake of the Nouatians and the custome of the Church toucheth not Luther for they admitted neither repentance not confession in the Church did Luther euer any such thing or did he euer reproue the custome of the Church that they who had offended publikely did publikely testiue their repentance It was a priuate auricular confession of all sinnes which hee reproued which is without testimonie either of Scripture of sincere Antiquitie which made Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople put it out of the Church for the offence of a Deacon For the Fathers by which you would establish your keyes we haue against them Augustine in Ioan. tract 124. and Theophil in Matth. 18. You may confesse you sinnes but to any bodie y DVR VVhat is then more manifest then that hee may giue a Sacrament which neuer inteÌ„ded 〈◊〉 VVe beleeue that Priests as Iudges can absolue the guilty from their sins WHIT pag. 722. When as faith dependeth vpon no mans will and faith bringeth remission of sins another mans will caÌ„not hinder but that they who beleeue may haue the pardon of their sins For that to the Centurion Mat. 8.13 is to euâ—ry man As thou beleeuest so bâ—â—t â—â—to thee not as another wil. If absolution were then in the Ministers will it should not be as men beleeue but as their Minister thinketh than vvhich nothing can be more absâ—â—d What skilleth it vvhether the Minister be in â—est or earnest if I beleeue seriously his iest shall not hurt mee And what is more miâ—erable then to baâ—g the dignitie of the Sacrament vpon the thought and intention of the Minister which if it were true of SacrameÌ„ts yet what is that to absolution which neuer was a SacrameÌ„t wheras you say you beleeue that the Priesâ—â— do absolue men as Iudges do I do not find fault with it And such â—uâ—ges are they as Priests vnder the Law were of diseases The chiefe Prâ—â—st iudged of the Leprosie which he neither inflicted nor cured So the Minister doth pronounce and iudge all beleeuers to be absolued and the contrarie vpon the wicked and vnbeleeuers who if he do absolue you but in iest so as you beleeue you are absolued And why not for it is not need full either to number sins by our fingers or to vse a Priest or a Frier such a one as your selfe Iam. 1.16 1. Ioh. 1.9 We may confesse our faults one to another so as Friers may be idle hereafter And whosoeuer beleeueth that his sinnes are forgiuen him him saith it selfe absolues whether he be absolued in iest or in earnest Well make haste To reade prayers by the houre belongeth not to Priests but to lay meÌ„ What your Priests do or what they thinke they ought to do it concernes me not Let them reade let them pray let them say Masse let them drinke let them play and in a word let them be alwayes like themselues It behoueth a Minister of the Gospell not to recite certaine Collects by an houre-glasse and to make his walke in them certaine spaces of houres but to giue daily diligence vnto reading 1. Tim. 4.13 exhortation and doctrine which things your Priests haue euer thought to be farre different from their office But these same prayers by the houre albeit they do not ill agree to your sacrificing priests who vnlesse they should speÌ„d the time on this fashion would neuer goe out of Stewes and Tauernes yet are they vnworthie of a Christian man because of their infinite z DVR Js it superstition to sing Psalmes vnto God to pray for remission of sinnes and other temporall and spirituall graces and to performe other exercises of religion vvho knovveth not that Christians had their night Psalmes that the Hymnes of Ambrose vvere at set times In the Acts vve read that Peter and Iohn vvent into the Temple at the ninth houre of prayer WHIT. pag. 726. These things I reproued not as superstitious and impious but that all the time which should be bestovved in instructing the people should be spent in saying their daily appointed houres specially in that tongue vvhich not the people and often times not the Priest himselfe doth vnderstand No man is ignorant that Christians had their night houres but it vvas because they might not assemble themselues in the day time vvill you keepe this custome and not be accounted superstitious The Hymnes of Ambrose are full of piety and sarre from superstitious chaunting As for the Apostles they vvent not vp to sacrifice nor to keepe Canonicall houres but to instruct the people who came thither to the euening sacrifice in great multitudes superstition Let vs heare the rest Christians are free from the lawes of men That neuer came into Luthers mind to
any Schoole-learning that they will heedfully obserue how current these your conclusions be and examine them by the rules of right and true disputation And indeed to chuse I will there begin where you your selfe haue made an entrance We mainteine that it is lawfull for Ministers of the Gospell and for Deacons to be maried You skorne the arguments whereby we make it good Wherefore let vs consider what goodly stuffe is brought on your side for the contrarie Pope Innocent the second of that name Distinct 82 Proposuisti Rom. 8.8 thus concludeth you must suppose by diuine inspiration against these mariages They which are in b DVR Pope Innocent spake of Priests who had vowed single life of their ovvne accord but aftervvard yeelded to lust WHIT. pag. 735. Nay he spake that of all Deacons and Priests for hee saith further Distinct. 82. cap. proposuisti It is not lawfull to admit them to holy offices which vse carnall companie â—ith their wiues because it is written â—â—e yee holy for 〈◊〉 the Lord your God am holy for then hee esteemed marriage duty to bee an vnholie thing in it selfe not in respect of their vow of which he speaketh not a word the flesh cannot please God Tit. 1.15 Vnto the pure al things are pure but vnto them that are defiled and vnbeleeuing is nothing pure Be yee holy because I the Lord your God am holy And because S. Paul permitteth married people by consent to sleepe apart for a season to the end they may more conueniently giue themselues to fasting praier Distinct 31. Tenere here heÌ„ce the Pope gathereth that this is much more c DVR This argument is good and can haue no shew of error For aboue all men a Priest must be chaste saith Origen Homil. 6 4. in Leuit. Also Ierome and Ambrose and Epiphanius taught the same WHIT. pag. 736. Yea you erâ—e and mistake S. Paul in theree things 1. What he wrote to all Christians you expound of Lay-men only 2. He speaketh only of extraordinarie fasts prayer but you applie it vnto all sorts thereof That the Apostle speaketh of extraordinarie appeares 1. Because he hath ioyned fasting with them 1. Cor. 7.5.2 Because Christ and his Apostle haue commanded all to pray continually and so all ought to lâ—ue a single life 3. From a short abstinence of Lay-men you childishly would proue a perpetuall single life to be necessary for Ministers You abuse also Origens words play the heretike as if chastitie were contrary to matrimony whereas the Fathers of the Nicene Councell consented to Paphnutius who said openly that society with a lavvfull wiâ—e is chastitie Socrates lib. 1. cap. 11. Jerome indeed disputed too sophistically against matrimony seeking victory more then verity as himself confessed Ambrâ—se and Epiphanius disswaded Ministers only from second mâ—â—riages allowing their fiâ—st to be done of Priests whose office is to pray alwaies to offer that daily sacrifice Distinct 28 Decernimus Last of al seeing they must be a teÌ„ple of the Lord and an oratory of the spirit d DVR Tertullian vsed this same argument against second marriage WHIT. pag. 739. Tertullian therein erred with Montanus as all the learned know condemning second marriages of vncleannes not only in Ministers but in all Christians yet he himselfe being a Priest was married and liued with his wife continuing his Ministery so that he neither iudged marriage to be vncleanenes nor vnlavvfull in Ministers simplie but only second marriages they ought not to abase themselues with bed-pleasures vncleannesses Now out of all these he coÌ„cludeth that which he propounded that Deacons and Priests are flatlie forbidden to marry Harding and Dorman and others If these things be absurdly disputed let vs heare others Seuerall Pastors haue rule ouer seuerall flockes c DVR The Pope challengeth no Lordship ouer the Churches but professeth himselfe the seueruant of Gods seruants WHIT. pag. 740. But his deeâ—s bewray his tyranny for he prescribeth commandeth threatneth punisheth and doth whatsoeuer any Lord can do DVR You can disproâ—e this consequent by no argument WHIT. pag. 741. It is an absurd argument like these Euery seuerall man hath one head therefore all men must haue one head Euery seuerall flocke hath his shepheard therefore all flockes must haue one to rule them Againe no one man can possiblie teach and feed the whole Church with the Word and Sacrament as a faithfull Pastor should and may doe in a particular Church Christ only can thus feed al particular Churches which can neuer be made one visible body and therefore can haue none but Christ the generall head and Pastor ouer them DVR Ierome Cyprian and Ireneus haue written the same we doe WHIT. pag 742. Not one of them First Ierome defendeth the superiority of one Pastor in the Church not as a matter of accessitie but of conueniency to preuent schismes and saith that the Church is founded vpon all the Apostles alike and that euery one equally hath receiued the keies of the kingdome of heauen euen in that place where you quote him against Iouinian lib. 1. Secondly Cyprian coÌ„cludeth only that there should be but one Pastor in one Church and neuer thought vpon the Popes primacie but saith plainly that euery particular Bishop hath all whatsoeuer any one hath by right in the same booke which you alleadge of the Churches vnity Lastly Ireneus called the Romane the chiefe Church not for any superiority but because she excelled all others in constancie largenes fame and soundnes of faith therefore the Pope ought to haue dominion ouer all Churches Christ said to Peter feed my sheepe f DVR Jt is manifest by this place that Christ gaue greater authoritie of feeding to Peter than to the other Apostles and so made him head of all his Church WHIT. p. 744. It will not follow vpon this place that Peter had greater authority to feed or that he only must feede all for he said to them all alike Matth. 28.19 Goe yee teach all nations and Iob. 20 21. As the Father sent me so I send you Therefore he spake so often then to Peter to confirme him after his grieuous fall that he might not doubt of his Apostolicall calling as saith Augustines treatise on Iohn 123. so that it no whit concerneth the Pope therefore Peter is the chiefe principall Pastor of the Church The Lord made two great lights the Sunne g DVR The Pope vseth this as a similitude to amplifie not as an argument to prooue by authoritie WHIT. pag. 746. This is an idle shift a similitude is an argument and Johannes Andraeas would prooue hereby that the Pope excelleth the Emperor in dignitie seuentie times seuen degrees the Moone therfore the Pope excelleth the Emperour in honour and greatnes Heere are two swords therfore the h DVR VVe gather nothing hence but vvhat Bernard did saying This sword of temporall povver is thine
orphanorum Tu leuamen oppressorum Medicamen infirmorum Omnibus es omnia That is to say Thou blessed Virgin Marie art the infallible l DVR Saint Paul calleth the Thessalonians his hope 1. Thess 2.19 WHIT. pag. 796. But hee neuer put his trust in nor called vpon them as you doe the Virgin Marie hee called them his hope because he receiued great hope and ioy by his labours in their conuersion You make the Virgin an instrument of our saluation and therefore you trust in her but the Scriptures teach euery where to trust in God and Christ only As Psal 71.3 Ier. 17.5.7 1. Tim. 1.1 and 1. Pet. 1.21 hope of such as are in miserie the true mother of Orphanes Thou art the consolation of such as be oppressed the medicine of such as bee diseased Thou art all m DVR The sentence of the Catholike Church hath no vvhere alloued this but if it had it might be conueniently defended WHIT pag. 797. Duraeus can conueniently expound that which most absurdly taketh the office of reâ—eÌ„ption froÌ„ Christ and giueth it to the Virgin Mary in all to all men or in all necessities and other such like abominable speeches and full of strange blasphemie If happily you thinke our reproouing of these things be but some fighting with a shadow then doe you no more respect the glorie of God than the shadow of an Asse The second error in disputation wherewith you charge vs Logomachia is that wee often vse Logomachia which is when the sense is neglected and men contend about the word I vnderstand it well but which bee those our faults committed in this kinde Can you finde vs say they the Masse or Purgatorie in the Scriptures And is not this our demaund reasonable For where should these be found rather than in the Scriptures There was nothing wont to be accounted more holy than the Masse and there could nothing be inuented more gainfull than Purgatorie that neither of these now at last should be found in the Scriptures certainly it may well seeme a very strange and vnreasonable thing Belike then say you Trinitas the Trinitie Homousios coessentiall Persona a person are no where in the Bible because these very termes are not to be found there Neither say we so Campian nor will it follow at all hereupon and these things be altogether vnequally compared For albeit these very termes are not in Scriptures Epiphan contra Semiarian l. 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet the matter it selfe and the sense as Epiphanius writeth commeth to hand in all places and is easily euery where to bee found But your n DVR Did you neuer reade these vvords of Christ in his last Supper this is my body WHIT. pag. 799. Yea but Christ ordeined then a SacrameÌ„t not a sacrifice he offered himselfe a sacrifice only once vpon the Crosse Heb 9 10. not in his last Supper except you will say he died then also vvhich he must haue done to make it a sacrifice but he was then aliue it were most absurd to say he was aliue and dead at one time which he needs must be both then and in al your Masses if there be any sacrifice in the Masse at all Againe externall sacrifices as you say your Masse is are subiect to the sight outward senses but no man euer saw Christ to be sacrificed either in the Supper or in the Masse Therefore there is none neither in the one nor in the other DVR Jt vvas a sacrifice for Christ vvas really conteined vnder those former of bread and vvine and so the Masse is novv an vnbloodie sacrifice WHIT. pag. 801. You cannot prooue him to be so present there as you teach by no Scripture and if he were yet that was not therefore a sacrifice except you will haue his reall being in the Virgins wombe also to be a sacrifice in which he was conteined As for your vnbloody propitiatorie sacrifice first it is absurd for to sacrifice killeth a bodie but your Transubstantiation maketh a bodie secondly it hath no word of God for it thirdly it is needlesse Christs sacrifice being perfect fourthly Christ ordained that supper in memorie of his sacrifice not to be it selfe a sacrifice WHIT. pag. â—03 DVR Many of the Fathers call the Eucharist by the name of sacrifice WHIT. pag 805. Not because it is that same which Christ offered as you teach but because it is a memoriall and Sacrament of it DVR Purgatorie is most plainely prooued by the fact of Iudas Machabaeus in the second booke and 12. chapter WHIT. pag. 806. Those bookes are not Canonicall Scripture neither doth that act prooue a Purgatorie by your owne doctrine who say those that die in deadly sinne as those did there mentioned goe to hell and not to Purgatorie Masse and Purgatorie are not in this manner in the Scriptures seeing neither the names nor the things themselues any where do appeare yea they are plainly against the Scriptures For what else is either the Masse than as * Bustum coenae Dominica an empty sepulchre where is onely the title of the Lords Supper or what is Purgatorie more than a shamelesse merchandise of soules and an intolerable contempt against the blood of Christ Wherefore this is not a trisling contention about words but a most waightie one about matters of moment except peraduenture you make account of the Masse and Purgatorie not to bee matters of moment but words of Arte only As for the name o DVR The office of a Presbyter or Elder in the Gospell is the same that the Priests office vvas in the Lavve WHIT. pag. 807. It is not so for if the office did remaine why should the name be changed for Elders are neuer called Priests in the new Testament And there be ruling Elders in the Church which labour not in the Ministerie of the word and Sacraments as the Priests did Presbyter and Sacrament it is appropriated from the common signification to some certaine and particular things as likewise many other names are to wit Ecclesia the Church Episcopus a Bishop Apostolus an Apostle Diaâ—onus a Deacon and these names wee willingly vse but so that wee carefully shunne their impertinent significations Neither was that indeede sufficient cause why you should register Matrimonie in the catalogue of Sacraments because S. Paul wrote thus Sacramentum hoc magnum Eph. 5. This is a great mysterie For in that place Sacramentum is vsed in a large signification for any mysterie not for that ceremony which may properly be called a Sacrament As for that counsell of Thomas Aquinas we doe very well approue it The third head Homonymia or kinde of deceitfull disputation which you say we vsually erre in is Homonymia equiuocation or a mistaking the sense of words whereof you propound two examples For say you we both confound the order of Priests because S. Iohn hath tearmed vs all Priests and also abolish choice of
a witles kinde of reasoning is this first to recken vp the Saints in Heauen and say these are ours Then to number vp the damned Iewes Gentiles Turkes Heretikes and affirme those are the enemies of our Church To rehearse those Countries that haue been conuerted to the faith of Christ and conclude by and by these are of our Religion would you take this man to bee well in his wits compassing Heauen Earth and Hell so childishly a DVR Jf heere he any thing ridiculous then may you laugh at the Prophet vvho aâ— speedily runnes ouer the whole world And S. Paul tooke a testimony for a truth out of the beathen Poet Act. 17 2â— WHIT. pag. 856. Who knoweth not that God may be knowne by his creatures religion illustrated by nature vncorrupt but what nature I pray you hath taught CamptaÌ„ thus to iudge of the heauenly spirits and the damned soules and of the whole frâ—me of things can he learne by nature that those who haue professed the Popish religion doe novv enioy heauenly happines and that they who dislike it are tormented in hell These weapons of Campian were those that impure Symmachus opposed Christian religion withall Ambros Epist 30. Prudent contra Symmachum ridiculouslie and impertinently taking vnto himselfe what he liketh and reiecting the rest A worthie cauil fit for none but Iesuites which when a man hath by one negatiue discharged can neuer be proued by their peruerse sect and whole societie These dreames of yours Campian are vnworthie any answere one word of denial confutes this whole Chapter I will not bestow much time in answering this Sophisme so vnhansomely framed and patched together it shall suffice lightly to passe and only touch euery thing in a word First therefore you alledge the prophecie of Esay of a straight way wherein the simple should not erre b DVR You shew your ignorance in the Prophet for he speaketh not of the way to the Church but of the Church it selfe vvhich is the high way to heauen WHIT. pag. 857. Howsoeuer you interpret the way it maketh neither much for me nor for you The question is who shall find out that way and walke in it for it is not discerned of all because it is a plaine way nor held of all because it is a right way but he that hath learned Christ is he that walketh in this way without any error though he be but sillie and vnskilfull DVR Jf this be so then can it not be the true Church which conteineth sinners and men polluted And the Fathers by this place exclude only those who are not clensed by Baptisme WHIT. pag. 858. The Prophet speaketh of the Church of the elect and Saints because he saith vers 8. The polluted shall not passe by it and vers 20. the redeemed only whose ioy shall be euerlasting but the visible Church conteineth those which are impure whom Christ hath not redeemed and whose ioy shall perish As for Baptisme it purgeth none but such as lay hold of the promise of free iustification by Christ as Tit. 3.5 Heere the Prophet describes the entrance into Christs Church viz. that it should be ready plaine and easie But this way brings vs not to your Church c for of this way the Prophet reports that no prophane man no Lion or cruell beast shall be found in it whereas all your waies are compassed with polluted men raging beasts Lions Beares Leopards Dragons Diuels and in conclusion they leade miserably bewitched men vnto wofull destruction As for vs we treade that way which Christ and his Apostles haue traced out before vs wee auoyde your erroneous and strange waies because it is the way of sinners that you sâ—â—â—d in which way whosoeuer treadâ— Psal 1.1 Rom. 3.17 the way of peâ—ce they haue not knowne First vnderstand the path well your selues and then direct the way vnto vs. Let vs say you asâ—â—â—d into heauen I feare you Iesuites haue no place there Heauen is for Christians not Iesuites But suppose your selues for the time to be in heauen what followeth Let vs behold say you the Martyrs 33. Bishops of Rome slaine together the Vniuersall Pastors companies of the faithfull all holie Saints Well suruey Campian heauen it selfe and all the heauenly host looke well in all the parts and coasts of it whiles you list you shall not find there vpon my word one Iesuit not one Papist for none shall stand in Mount Zion with the Lamb Apoc. 14.1 that haue receiued the marke of the beast or belong vnto Antichrist But in heauen are 33. Bishops of Rome and many more I doubt not but of all these name me one if you can of your religion whom you may iustly claime as yours Those were holy and faithfull Bishops which shed their bloud for the name of Christ But your Popes for these many hundred yeares what else haue they done but persecuted Christ and murthered his true seruants If those 33. Bishops be in heauen as doubtlesse they are how many late Popes could I recken vp which possibly cannot be where they are in all things they are so vnlike them You pick out a few let vs see who these are Ignatius say you was ours why I pray you He thought no man equall to the Bishop in causes ecclesiasticall not the King himselfe and left in writing certaine Apostolike traditions neither say we that any man is to be compared with the Bishop in such things as belong to his office d DVR If these be so proper to Bishops that they cannot belong to Kings then you being iudge the Queene cannot be the head of the English Church WHIT. pag. 160. We acknowledge no other head of the Church saue Christ And Prince though they may not do any of thâ—se 〈◊〉 yet they rule ouerthem who doe and ought to command them diligently to execute their offices which if they neglect they ought to reproue compell and punish them as we reade the good Kings of the Church Iewish and Christian haue euer done and the reason hath no force Princes haue no authoritie to preach therefore they haue no authority to punish those who teach false doctrine to their people He only ought to ouersee holy things viz. instruction of the people administration of the Sacraments vse of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen These are matters of great weight and exceed the kingly authority yet are Kings aboue Bishops in wealth honor gouernment maiestie and they may lawfully both admonish them of their dutie and restraine them when they offend If Bishops herein would equall themselues with Kings it were too intolerable As for the Apostles traditions which Ignatius hath left in writing we receiue them so farre as they agree with the Apostolicall Scripture if they dissent from those we refuse them The Epistles of Ignatius were most of them counterfet as euery man may see heere you rehearse many and still the vndersong is these are ours Telesphorus say
you Ireneus Victor Polycarp Cornelius Cyprian Sixtus Laurentius are ours But I affirme that all these do belong vnto vs let vs then consider how you will perswade vs they are yours Telesphorus enioyned a more strict obseruation of Lent fast appointed by the Apostles e DVR But J proue it by these witnesses Augustine Hierome Basil Ambrose Epiphanius Clemenâ— WHIT. pag. 862. And I proue the contrary by the Fathers August Epist. â—6 writeth plainely that neither Christ not his Apostles ordained any certaine time for fastings And so not Lent Tertul. aduer Psychicos In times past ChristiaÌ„s indifferently fasted of their owne free will as euery mans time and occasions required and not by any coÌ„mand of new gouernmeÌ„t Doth not this ouerthrow the necessary obseruatioÌ„ of Lent Chryso in Mat. hom 47. freely confesseth that Christ did not command vs to imitate his fast But what is Lent but an imitation of it Further Montanus was the first who brought vp set solemne daies of fastings Euseb lib. 5. cap. 17. Finally Ireneus in Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 26. sheweth that in the Primitiue Church there was great variety about the keeping of this fast and that this difference began not in his time only but was long before Therefore it is false that Christ and his Apostles appointed the fast of Fortie daies I deny that the Apostles ordeined any such Lenâ—en fast or that Telesphorus commaunded a more precise obseruation thereof The Apostles were farre from ordeining and Telesphâ—rus from reuiuing so great superstition Clemens his Constitutions where this is reported are not sufficient authoritie But if this fast were prescribed by the Apostles I wonder how afterwards it was discontinued so as it should bee necessarie for Telesphorus to enioyn the keeping of it more precisely especially seeing such strife was in the Church about the celebration of Easter The epistle of Telesphorus wherein he commaunds the 7. weekes fast hath the same authority with the rest of your decretall epistles of your Pope which were not framed by the most holy Bishops themselues but coyned since by the most impudent Parasites of the church of Rome Jren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Ireneus say you declared the Apostolike faith from the succession and sea of Rome So he might well then for as Ireneus elsewhere saith They retained with the succession of Bishops the gratious succession of truth for succession is nothing worth without truth Your Chaire and Sea hath Bishoply succession it hath not the succession of truth Victor say you by his edict subdued Asia He endeuored it indeed Campian but failed of his purpose for being a man very passionate he would needs excommunicate all such Churches of Asia as refused to keepe Easter according to the Romane custome When he began thus insolently to abuse his authority f DVR Neither Ireneus nor any other denied to Pope Victor this power to excommunicate the Churches of Asia WHIT. pag. 863. But Eusebius wriâ—eth lib. 5. cap. 25. that both Ireneus and many other Catholike Bishops sharpely reproued him for assuming that power Ireneus tamed and restrained him As for the controuersie about Easter Victor was so farre from composing and ending it that it coÌ„tinued vnto the g DVR By the same reason you may say the CouÌ„cels decree preuailed nothing to endiâ—â—â— controuersie WHIT. pag. 864. The reason is good proueth that wheÌ„ he could preuaile neither by examples reasons nor threatnings that those Churches did not accouÌ„t Pope Victor for the head of the Church And though after that Councell of Nice some Churches obserued the Passeouer after another manner yet the most Churches followed the iudgement and authoritie of the Councell So the Councell preuailed more then the Pope could doe Councell cell of Nice You may see how well Victor subduer all Asia Polycarpe in the question about Easter went to Rome Smyrna gathered his reliques Wonderfull reasons Polycarpe went to Rome to consult with Anycetus about Easter and Smyrna gathered his reliques ergo Polycarpe is yours Doth not the learned Vniuersities make you ashamed of this childish sophistrie h DVR Enuie maketh you forge an vntruth And whil for eunie you pine avvay aâ— the honor which is giuen of Christians to the reliques of Martyrs you imitate the Jewes and the Diuell WHIT. pag. 865. I haue spoken neither lesse nor more then Eusebius hath written who theÌ„ liued After we had gathered his banes being more precious then pearles and gold we buried them where it was thought sit And as for the reliques of Saiâ—ns I enuy them not the Saints themselues I euer honorablie remember But that the reliques of Saints were worshipped with religiâ—us honor as they are in your Church you shall neuer be able to proue His bones indeed were gathered by the Church of Smyrna not to worship them but to bury them as Eusebius in the same place recordeth But why are Cornelius and Cyprian yours forsooth because Cornelius abolished the i African error and Cyprian had him in great reuerence Oh wonderfull Iesuiticall Logick l DVR His supreame authoritia appeareth in this because hee decreed that controuersie being not the Bishop of Africke but of Rome WHIT. pag. 866. Saint Paul confuted many errors of the Churches of Galatia Coâ—inth Rome and diuers others yet was hee neuer supreame Bishop So did Augustine But what error did he suppresse was it touching Baptisme by heretikes that he neuer could doe but Cyprian and the Bishops of Africke constantly held it which proued they neuer acknowledged that he had any such authoritie who can chuse but be much moued with such strong reasons But let vs heare another Sixtus is ours and why so Seauen of the Clergie ministred vnto him while hee serued at the altar Seauen Deacons helped Sixtus to celebrate the Lords supper ergo Sixtus is yours If this reason be of force let him be yours hardly I will not striue with you about him but herein is nothing why he may not as well be k DVR Pope Sixtus a Priest offred vp the body and blood of Christ Deacons assisting of him could not bee a Caluinist but on our side WHIT. pag. 868. As if we had no Deacons who helpe the Minister when he celebrateth the Lords Supper ours as yours Doth it become you Campian thus to trifle thus to abuse our patience What followeth Laurence is yours how so I pray you Our aduersaries haue cast him out of their Calouder We remember him with reuerence as a saint and a friend of Christ though we worship him not as God But Prudentine prayed vnto him a thousand yeares agoe Giue leaue Campian to a Poet to vse poeticall auersions from whence yet no strong reason can be drawne But if Prudentius were something too superstitious what is that to vs Now you recken vp virgins Câ—cilia Agatha and others but what haue they done why they should not be ours When the Tyrants examined them of their faith they
many things in their religion which will euer alienate them from you yet in many respects the Iewes are much beholding vnto you so as vnlesse they will incurre the suspition of great vnthankfulnes they must loue you againe deseruedly For you giue them leaue to vse their auncient Ceremonies and that in Rome and freely to vtter their blasphemies against Christ without blame so they pay tribute they haue impunitie for all their sacriledges and blasphemies The Lutheranes say you neuer opposed themselues against them neither did they euer receiue any damage from the Iesuites Heathens You proceed to Heathens among whom you affirme those were most violent which deuised the most grieuous torments for Christians I will easily graunt that those Tyrants that killed and murthered the Christians for the space of 300. yeares were violent and outragious aboue measure What of this These say you that were thus drawne vnto all kinds of torment that could be deuised These were the fathers and children of our faith Nothing lesse Campian this should haue bin soundly proued not barely affirmed No likenes or affinitie of faith or works can be found betwixt you and them so farre are they from being your fathers or you their children For as our Sauiour said to the Iewes If you were the children of Abraham Ioh. 8.39 you would do the works of Abraham so if these had been your fathers as you say you their children you should haue resembled them as your fathers But beware Campian lest that which followes agree more fitly vnto you You are of your father the Diuâ—ll Joh. 8.88 These holy Fathers if they were now liuing would disclaime you from being their of-spring so little you resemble them in any thing Be ashamed at length to call your selues their posteritie from whom you haue so fouly degenerated or if the name please you indeuour that it may be proper vnto you But to what purpose make you mention of that Tyrant that broyled Laurence on a Gridyroul and why repeate you all these verses out of Prudentius He speakes indeed of gold and siluer and torches what of all this Torches were needfull in the night season at which time the Christians then vsed to meete because they durst not assemble on the day but to Å¿ DVR Yet was this a most auncient custome as diuers do testifie and they vvere kindled then to shevv that the sight of faith ought to bee kindled in the mind WHIT. pag. 879. That which was done in the night came in time to be done at noone day I deny not but I inquire by what Scripture or what reason as for your inuented mysterie I say this is the way to fill all places with â—ignes figures and foolish mysteries But I can easily pardon you whose ignorance and blindnes of mind is so great that no light is sufficient for you light candles as you do at noone dayes is meere madnes The accusation laid against him by the Tyrant of gold siluer plate and summes of money was t DVR Yea your answere is false and fained for it was true which the Tyrant obiected to Laurence WHIT. pag. 880. Is it like that the Church being vnder Tyrants could abound with such riches of siluer and gold But at the very same time their pouertie appeareth For Gratian de Coâ—spâ—â—ra Dist. 1. c. vâ—sâ— bringeth in Boniface affirming that in time past they had golden Priests and wooden Chalices And Xepherinus the sixteenth Bishop of Rome did ordeine that Masse should bee celebrated in dishes made of glasse Pope Vrbâ—â—e was the first who made all the ministring dishes of siluer and so in this as in other things by successe of time the glorie of Churches increased forged He had heard that the Christians had a great masse of gold and siluer and concealed treasure and being exceeding earnest after it he sends for Laurence and commaunds him to bring him that money But where Campian was the plate of gold and siluer which he brought vnto the Tyrant what Cups vessels or treasures did he bewray The Church did not then abound in wealth neither had they then such plentie of golden basons siluer chalices costly hangings or any other great and pretious treasure They had then woodden dishes but golden Bishops and Priests but now as Boniface said truly we 〈◊〉 golden vessels Bonifac. de Consc dist 1. vasa woodden Priests neither doth he therein play the Lutheranâ— as you play the Papist Campian These Nimrods Church-robbers came not out of Luthers schoole those that made greatest spoile of the Church came from you not vs. Against this Tyrant you oppose Constantine and make a needlesse digression in his commendation rather to fill vp roome then frame a reason For to what end rehearse you these things Constantine quieted the Church was baptized by Siluester Bishop of Rome vsed the signe of the crosse had Helen to his mother ioyned himselfe to the Fathers of Nice commended himselfe to the prayers of Anthony chose the lowest place in the Synod ergo what will you inferre From this loose ware cannot you euince your Church to be the true Church vnlesse you straine them very violently Constantinâ—â— indeed brought peace vnto the Church in her most troublesome time and adorned and honored it with all the preferments and possessions he could and since his time as she increased in wealth so she decreased in piety Whereas you say that Constantine sent for Siluester from Soracte that he might be baptized by him with our baptisme you might better haue said that Siluester was fetcht from heauen to baptize Constantine for Siluester died many yeares before Constantine was baptized as is manifest out of u DVR You knovv the first of your authors and vvitnesses was an Arian and him the rest follovv WHIT. pag. 881. It is incredible to thinke hee would lie in so famous a thing which might so easily be proued to the contrarie And if he had been baptised at Rome as you say it is like the other three would haâ—â— come to the knowledge of it by some meanes haue preferred the credit of the thing before the lie of Eusebius As for your witnesses they are not to be compared with these of ours Eusebius Socrates Theodorus Zâ—zomen Euseb lib. 4. de vita Constant Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 39. Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 31 Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 34. who haue recorded the baptisme of Constantine to haue been not whiles he was yong but in his age not by Siluester of Rome but by Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian Bishop Now Siluester was extreame old when Constantine was a yong man He vsed the signe of the crosse which he had seene in the ayre as an Ensigne declaring himselfe thereby the souldier of Christ and an enemy of Tyrants But that he worshipped or adored this crosse you shall neuer approue As concerning his * DVR VVhat can bee spoken more foolishlie WHIT. pag. 881. And yet what
2. cap. 35. whom they vsually called Atheist but an other Aetius the likenes of the names deceiued you To that you obiected concerning Vigilantius and Iouinian an answere is formerly giuen a DVR You speake vvitâ—ilie but you must of necessity do the one WHIT. pag. 884. If they haue defended any thing against the Scriptures they are heretikes but if not they cannot bee condemned by the iudgement of any Church for my part I neither meane to defend them nor can I greatly accuse thâ—m If they were hereticks conuince them of some error they held against the scriptures Hieromes passions can make no man an heretick Now you bring in the swarme of hereticks Macedonians PelagiaÌ„s Nestorians Eutychians the Mâ—â—otholites and Iconomachs These first we hate as hell it selfe those last haue committed nothing deseruing the name of hereticks To set vp and worship Images is hereticall but not to ouerthrow them What you iudge touching Luther and Caluinâ— is nothing materiall whiles they liued they nothing regarded you now they are dead they despise you what will you conclude at length from this hereticall companie Aâ—â— these you say forsooke the gouerment of your Church and were ouerthrowne by them Nay Campian these were your forefathers and you their progenie and successors for your monster of Poperie hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies But you now appeare out of hell Lands and are come to land and wheresoeuer you cast your eyes or thoughts All is your own as you say all subiect themselues and subscribe to your religion Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant who standing by the sea and beholding the ships cried out all he saw was his owne otherwise such senselesse dreames could not proceed but from a wit and iudgement exceedingly weakned Sedes Apostolica For say you the Romane succession witnesseth in which Church as Austen speaketh the Primacie of the Apostolike chaire hath alwaies had the preeminence Many causes there were why speciall accompt in times past should be made of the church of Rome especially for that Rome was the seate of the Empire as approued in the Councell held at Constantinople Concil Constantinop 1. cap. 5. b DVR VVhy then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be ouer all other Bishops and so the Prince of Priests the chiefe Priest and supreame head of the rest WHIT. pag. 885. Because authoritie and dominion is not proper to them who are more excelleÌ„t then others which may bee shewed by infinite examples Who can be ignorant that the tribe of Iudah was the chiefe the first and the Prince of the other tribes will it therefore follow that the head of the principall family in this tribe had authoritie ouer all other tribes Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers Homer of Poets Hippocrates of Physitians Apelles of Painters did they therefore exercise authoritie ouer all the rest of the same profession So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest yet it neuer had domination and rule ouer the rest of the Churches of Christ I graunt therefore thaâ—â—his Church was accompted the supreme chiefe greatest and the principall preferred before other Churches Trow you hence to conclude the Bishop of Rome is the chiefe and principall Bishop or head of the Church Concil Carthag 3. cap. 26. Dist 99 prima sedis Austen himselfe forbid it in the Councell of Carthage viz. that the Bishop of the chiefe Sea should not be called Prince of Priests or any like title Although then the holy Fathers for diuers respects gaue the preheminence to the church of Rome yet â—â—d they neuer acknowledge c DVR This prohibition was giuen by the Fathers because they knew that aâ— the soueraignty of the Apostolike Chaire did euer flourish in the Romane Church so they did not doubt but the manner of the chiefe Priest did appertainâ— onely to the Bishop of Rome WHIT. pag. 885. Nay the prohâ—bition of the Councell did as well concerne the Bishop of Rome whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chiefe seate as the Bishops of other Seas Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Councell and was content with his names and refused to be called the soueraigne chiefe Priest that infinite pâ—â—â—â—â—â—â—ll authority which he now challengeth neither â—â—d other Apostolike Churches whether they were founded by the Apostles themselues or by some of their schollers yeeld any testimonie of truth to the church of Rome Heere you stick in a quagmire and â—â—e faine by intreatie to beg that which by strong reason you should prooue and cannot But you vrge further and recompt the Pastors of seuerall countries to whaâ— end I pray you The remainderâ— say you of the labours of all those that haue published the Gospell in all nations farrs and wide all present vnto vs this same religion which Catholâ—kes at this day professe What could be affirmed more weakely for the Greeians are opposite vnto you which vnto this time haue their succession of Bishops not interrupted And further the spyeâ— which you send in your new found lands haue found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we mainteine Osâ—rius neither may you preferre vs before them at least afore all you ought to preferre the truth Aristot. as the Philosopher saith But if you thinke your Popes and other glorious titles more auncient then the Gospell what can you alleage why Christ should not denie you to belong to him seeing you value any thing more then him Heere you tell vs of Princes Princes Kings Câ—sars Emperours and make a goodly shew of names as your manner is At length you meÌ„tion our noble Queenâ— Elizabeth and will needs teach her her dutie But she Campian needs no such Masters â—say 48. or instructiors She knoweth her selfe to be the nursing mother of the Church and that by diuine dispensation and accordingly doth she with all watchfulnes and care procure the good thereof and labours by all possible diligence to preuent all dangers intended by you and your adherents You say of Caluine and these Princes 〈◊〉 you haue spoken thâ—◠〈◊〉 heauen can noâ— containe theÌ„ But it passeâ—h your skill to pronounce certainely hereof nay your Pope himselfe cannot with all his might pull Caluiâ—â— out of heauen not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth As for you and your fellowes we wish you not the gallowes but saluation I desire to hope the best of you and I doubt not but you might attaine to the knowledge of the truth in controuersie betwixt vs if for the time you could lay aside all preiudicate opinions and consult with the word of God and the holy Fathers of the Church As for the societie of Iesus whereunto you are admitted it braggeth that it is wholie at the Popes dispensation and loues Gregory the 13.
is my follie which was not the follie of Eusebius and Sozomen for Eusebius who was present at the same Synod writeth that Constantine in the first rancke sate downe in a golden chaire And Sozomen saith there was a throne prepared for him and that a great one and aboue all the other place in the Councell it skilleth not greatly for what if he chose the lowest seate amongst the Bishops Euseb lib. 3. de vita Constant Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 19. but you thinke he did it rather forced by necessary dutie then moued by voluntarie humilitie marke then what Eusebius writes When he was come to the chiefe place he stood vp in the middest of the assemblie and there when a little seate made of gold was brought for him he sate downe Heere you see that Constantine sate in the highest place a seate of gold which was the chiefest and aboue all the rest as Zâ—zomen relates But these your proofes are passing strange they strengthen the cause of your Pope excellently well Now you passe forward vnto the Turks Turkes wherein you do too manifestly bewray your ignorance in historie For the Turkish gouernement neuer lesse preuailed then since Luther began to publish the Gospell Before he did ouer-run and like a troublous sea breake into all Countries with a furious and vnresisted violence But since Luther like a good husbandman began to sow the seed of the Gospell this raging sea hath as it were retired or stood still and conteined it selfe within his owne bounds Vicuna was kept by the Lutheranes and assaulted by Solyman but he returned with losse and with shame and prooue if you can that euer the Christians became weake or the Turks stronger by their default The Letters which you pretend as written from Solyman to Luther might with better reason haue bin sent to the Pope for the Turks are beholding to none more then your Pope as they well know and vnlesse they will be vnthankfull they will euer acknowledge it For if as our Sauiour Christ saith a kingdome diuided against it selfe cannot stand then the breaking of the strength of the Empire and weakning the power of Christians and consequently strengthning the Turks all must be imputed to him which rent and diuided the Romane and Christian Empires and of one kingdome made two As long as the prouinces and dominions of the Empire were vnited we were strong ynough against the Turks but after Pope Leo the 3. diuided the Empire the Emperour of Constantinople which before had much ado to resist the Turke was now no longer able to sustaine the burthen wanting the greatest part of his Empire There is then no reason why the Turke should thanke Luther but the Pope rather as he hath good cause It were too long to rehearse all the intercourse which hath passed betwixt the Pope and the Turke let vs now heare the conclusion They are say you onely professed enemies to vs. Certainely they haue infested them of the Greeke church more then the Latine So that if they be the best Christians that are most persecuted by the Turks the Grecians must goe before you Whereas you adde something of Altars and Images know you that the Idolatry of your Church is so great that the Turks themselues are ashamed and therefore they breake and euill intreate your Images and Idols wheresoeuer they find them Now you come to Hereticks the lees bellowes Heretikes and fewell of hell fire As long as there wants no Papists this fire will want no fewell The first you meete with is Simon Magus Indeed your Church is something more indebted to this Simon then the other but what of him He denied freewill vnto man and bragged of faith alone Where finde you that tell vs Campian for this is not affirmed by Ireneus or Clemens in the places alleaged he thought that all things came to passe by destinie and an ineuitable necessitie whereby he vtterly abolished mans freewill x DVR If you be a Caluinist then this must needs be your doctrine when as Caluin had so taken avvay all freedome that he hath brought a necessitie greater then Stoickes fate WHIT. pag. 882. I am a Christian you a Iesuite Caluin as you wel know neuer tooke away the freedome of will vnlesse you reason thus the will of man is not free in good things before it be regenerate by the spirit of God therfore there is no freedome of the will at all which verily hath no strength of consequent in it We hold no such opinion Neither did he boast of sole faith as you say but this was his opinion that from the doctrine of Iustification by grace and faith he let loose the raines to all impietie dishonestie where do we defend any such things Nouatianus would himselfe be Bishop of Rome and opposed himselfe to Cornelius the lawfull Bishop hoping by force to get the Bishoprick What is this to vs But he was an enemie to the two Sacraments of penance and extreme vnction y DVR It was not for this but because he tooke away the Sacrament of Penance in vvhich Priests do pardon sinne WHIT. pag. 882. Whether Penance was a Sacrament or no was not the thing in question betwixt Nouatus and the Catholikes but whether there was any place for repentance left vnto those that did sinne that the Minister might assure theÌ„ of remission of sins if they repeÌ„ted we grant that this power is giueÌ„ to the Ministers of the Gospell therefore we are far from the error of Nouatus He denied pardon and repentance to them that fell in persecution Herein he was an enemie of repentance Our case in farre different which exclude no true penitent from hope of pardon Manos wholie reiected baptisme as vnprofiâ—able and not necessarie Do we affirme any such thing We z DVR You take from Baptisme all power to remit sinnes and confirre grace as the Manicâ—es doe And yee Caluinists deny that the deed done doth confirre grace to them vvho beleeue WHIT. pag. 883. We beleeue and teach that in Baptisme sins are forgiuen which the Manichies vsually deny Therefore we differ much from them And as for the inuention of the deed done we reiect it euen in those who are indued with faith for what neede haue wee of any such inuention that grace is conferred and giueâ— by the deed done if faith be not wanting denie indeed that baptisme confers grace to the vnbeleeuer by the worke wrought he denied it to be profitable at all are we like him Austen and Epiphanius accompt Aerius for an Heretick so did few of the auncient Fathers besides these And if to condemne praiers for the dead Hierou ad Euag. in 1. Tit. and make equall a Priest with a Bishop be hereticall what shall be Catholick Hierome was altogether of Aerius his mind about equalitie of Priests for he determines them to be equall with Bishops by Gods law This was not that Aerius Socrat. lib.