Selected quad for the lemma: church_n
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A54947
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A private conference between a rich alderman and a poor country vicar made publick wherein is discoursed the obligation of oaths which have been imposed on the subjects of England : with other matters relating to the present state of affairs.
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Pittis, Thomas, 1636-1687.
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1670
(1670)
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Wing P2316; ESTC R26884
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111,578
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274
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only take Cognizance of their Actions Your Authority is supplicated and humbly begg'd to be made use of only to restrain their open affronts to Law and Government and to give a check to their bold Assemblies and numerous Meetings for fear lest their discerning their strength they may at last attempt by force what your Oath obliges you to endeavour to prevent and obviate And by this they will only pay a Tribute at the most by Mulcts and Punishments for what they are so willing to enjoy and they need not be forced to a Faith in that which Reason does not perswade them to believe Thus the Rod punishing and restraining the unlimited propagation of Error and Schism they will by this be put upon enquiry after the Truth and upon a sufficient view of what they have not yet made a through inspection into they may at last embrace with cordial affection what they now prosecute and offer violence to with the greatest transports of passion and malignity Ald. But their Party seems so very much lately encreased that they will turn the edge of the Magistrates Sword and weary Justice with the execution of them Vic. You may therefore cut your work far shorter and Justice may act with the less noise but greater success if you only prosecute the Heads of them and execute the Laws only upon those who lead the innocent sheep astray Ald. And are you contented that the rest should still run into disorder Vic. You will find the rest in time to run themselves into the fold when the Bell-weathers are gone which they were wont to follow Ald. But methinks this should be the Office of the Bishops and their Ecclesiastical Judges Vic. First Sir all that the Law permits them to act punishes nothing but the soul and conscience and those persons that we have to deal with have their Consciences feared with an hot iron so that these wounds will not make them bleed for the utmost a Bishops Court can do is but to excommunicate the Offendor Ald. And is not that exceeding severe Vic. It is Sir a most dreadful Sentence and made such gashes and wounds formerly that no Medicine but an Absolution could heal far more deep than the severest stroke from the sharpest Sword set on by the hand of the most potent Emperour But now since Atheism and Impiety has grown to a height under the pretense and shelter of Reformation and Religion heavens thunder and lightening too proves to men but like Squibs and Rockets make only a great noise and a pleasant flash but scarce singe so much as the Garment Ald. Methinks Mr. Vicar you make light of that which was went to be esteemed a serious matter and awed the minds and consciences of men before Christianity could gain either the favour or assistance of the Civil Magistrate Vic. I only now gave you the Conjectures of those persons we have to deal with when Order and Religion are almost banished by the boldness and Rebellion of wicked men but if you would have mine own judgment I cannot but tremble at the very thoughts of an Excommunication which being attended with its due circumstances does not only cut off Communion here but also from Fellowship with the blessed Angels and Saints hereafter and what is thus bound on Earth shall be bound in Heaven Ald. And why cannot this then have the same effects that it had heretofore to restrain men from vice and disobedience Vic. Your Worship need not enquire a reason of this when you shall consider that those for the most part that will be concerned in this Sentence have other Notions not only of the Sentence it self but also of the Persons that pronounce it than the Primitive Christians formerly had they think the Sentence is not of such force as we believe it is and however that those persons that now pronounce it are not sufficiently authorized to do it Ald. Why They are Commissioned by the King himself and enabled by the Laws of the Land Vic. The wisest of them will not question I suppose but that they have a Civil Sanction and that the Ecclesiastical are the Kings Courts but this is so far from being Argumentative to produce fear that it is the only reason why they scorn it and the chief motive that I would make use of to crave assistance from the Civil Sword Ald. How can that possibly be Methinks you relate Riddles to me Vic. I shall presently then unriddle the Mystery because I am not willing to hold you in suspense You must know then that our Non-conformists are much of the Papists humour in particular nor can they think that the Civil Power should give a Sanction to the Kirks Laws and therefore if they can but satisfie themselves that the present Church is without Power derived from Heaven the Statutes made to confirm our Courts or to make the Sentences of these valid they conclude to be of no greater concernment than the other Laws made against themselves and may be equally violated without sin or danger To tell you the truth Sir they look upon our Church as none at all our Bishops only as Popish Prelates our Ministers as nothing but Baals Priests and all our maintenance as nothing but food for the God Bell. Al. Not so surely Vic. Why do they then separate from us And not only look upon our Prayers as deficient but our very Sermons without Authority and Power nay our very Communion and Sacraments as abomination and pollution Ald. These men indeed must be looked to for I see if they are permitted thus to run on without controul they will not only bring us to confusion but kill and stay that they may take possession Vic. That was you know their former Doctrine and though they then made as one would think sufficient use yet acording to their usual Method they are yet upon the Application Ald. But if these men reject our Church and deny our Bishops to be at least Ministers how will they make out their own Call and evidence their own Ordination lawful since their Primitive Reformers the Authors of their Succession received Orders from the Bishops hands by virtue of which they presumed to impose upon others Vic. They have a way to deny Succession to be necessary to a Church and besides they have changed their Principles as your Dialogue will inform you that the Presbyterian might the better associate with the Independent and unite their Forces to vanquish ours But if you would have your doubt at large resolved I know you are sufficiently acquainted and have familiarity with persons of all Perswasions and I desire you would put your Objection close to them that so they may give you a resolution of what I profess my self unable to do nor will I attempt it since neither my Judgment nor Obligation leads me to it Ald. I see no reason indeed why you should be put upon the defense of them But an Excommunication makes men liable to Temporal
whatsoever either granted and commended to the trust and managery of the Kings Majesty or else joyned and annexed to the Imperial Crown of this Kingdom Part of which there is none that understands any thing of the State of his Country or Religion but immediately reckons Spiritual or Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction for correction and amendment of all Errors and abuses in Church Affairs To enter therefore into a League and Covenant contradicting and violating a former Oath that plucked also a choice Jewel out of our Sovereigns Crown and entrenched upon his Royal Prerogative is an Action to be abandoned by Mankind and damned to that place to which it is to be feared it has condemned many a Promoter Ald. These methinks are hard words and were it not a derogation to my Honour and a blemish upon my Grandeur I could almost be sorry and sigh for my taking it But I hope as I was saying but now I shall pass still among the Herd Vic. Truly Sir without repentance it must be amongst the Goats then and I would advise you and if in any thing I may inform then in this to be serious where Eternity will be the measure either of your bliss or misery Will you be pleased that I shall proceed to the third reason Ald. Yes to any thing so as I may be rid of those I have already heard Vic. Then thirdly your Worship must easily grant that it was not imposed by a sufficient power For an Oath cannot lawfully be taken by a person subject to another in relation to those particulars in which his subjection is due or to constitute any thing or confirm it by such a Solemn Sanction concerning those matters in which he is lawfully subjected without the leave and permission of his Superiour First Because in this he does an injury to another and obliges himself to injustice by an Oath because he determines and disposes of those matters and affairs that are totally dependent upon anothers Commands And Secondly because every one in those things in which he is subjected to a Superiour is bound to attend and obey his Will and be passive only in relation unto his disposal to whom he has been obliged either by Nature Contract or a precedent Oath which no subsequent can disanul And though these Reasons are ponderous enough to weigh down whatever can be produced to the contrary yet if you try them by the weights of the Sanctuary you will not find a grain deficient For the thirtieth of Numbers is throughout the whole a compleat confirmation of this particular where if a woman remaining in her Fathers House whilest she is under his tuition and Government vow a Vow unto God and bind her self by a most Sacred Bond that Bond and Vow though never so solemn was to be null and void if her Father disallowed it Ald. But the Holy League I hope was no such thing that was cloathed with such unluckie Circumstances Vic. Yes Sir that it was For first the King not only disallowed but protested against it so far was he from giving it the least Contenance or Sanction And had he indeed consented to that he knew he should seale his own ruine as well as violate his Coronation Oath and make a Deed of Gift of all his Prerogative Ald. Then it seems this way a Net that would have entangled and catched both King and Subject Vic. It was a Net Sir that was fit to fish with in troubled waters for had not the Rivers been stained with bloud and the Clouds of Heaven as well as the Mud of the Earth darkned the Waters it is impossible that so much fish should have come to net the Web being so monstrously big that all that had eyes would have seen the Snare but so it was that it had fatal Circumstances attending it that it might prove a ruine to such a People that were out of love with their own beauty murmured and repined at their own plenty and were willing to abandon their blessings and felicity Ald. Well Sir I have no reason to say much agaiast what you reply but I can bear witness to the Old Proverb that it was good fishing in troubled waters But pray make good your second particular that the matter of the Covenant was not within our own power Vic. That I shall make good to your Worship too But first I must take notice by the by that your Worship would make a good Pope for that you have I perceive got a special Argument to prove your self St. Peters Successour because you have catched such fish as brought money in their mouths Ald. I tell you Sir I had rather have my Shop full of them than of Red Herrings Vic. Well there 's salt however in a Red Herring but I never knew your Worship so covetous before however let us throw aside the fish for the present and take up the Net The matter of the Covenant was not within your own power because those very things which you Covenanted to alter and extirpate and what you swore to defend and maintain were all contrary to that duty and subjection which before both by Birth and Oaths you owed to his Majesty Ald. How so Vic. But that I must allow to your Worship the infirmities of Old Age and account your memory as short as your days I could else tell you that but just now it was plainly evinced to be quite opposite to our Natural Obligations to our Oaths of Allegeance and Supremacy and not only tended to the diminution but the total destruction of the Kings Prerogative Ald. You are something zealous in your cause Mr. Vicar Vic. Not so zealous as your Worship was formerly in yours my Zeal is neither so hot as to boyle over into raging fury nor yet so blind as not to see its own Object and yet I hope I shall obtain your Worships pardon if so much discourse begins to make me a little warm Ald. I hope this Town stands in an Air that is able to cool you and therefore pray make your last particular a little plainer Vic. I shall chearfully undertake that task and I most humbly thank your Worship for your patience You know omitting the Proem and Conclusion the Covenant consisted of six Articles Every one of which is quite opposite to that obedience you before were engaged for to his Majesty besides the forfeiture of that Religion your Fore-fathers died for Ald. I would fain hear this proved Vic. That you shall certainly Sir without injury to any thing but your own patience As to your Religion the two first Articles do so palpably offer violence to that it not only demolishing the present structure of our most famous Churches but utterly extirpating that pious and most ancient Order of Bishops without which some doubt whether the Christian Church can have its being and by this means leaving us as much as in it lies without any future hopes of a true Priesthood Ald. But how does it oppugne that obedience