Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	bishop_n	know_v	presbyter_n	3,407	5	10.0039	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85315	Stablishing against shaking: or, A discovery of the Prince of Darknesse (scarcely) transformed into an angel of light, powerfully now working in the deluded people called, Quakers: with a sober answer to their railings against ministers for receiving maintenance from their people. Being the substance of one sermon preached Feb. 17. 1655. at Shalford in Essex. / By Giles Firmin (pastour of the church there) upon occasion of the Quakers troubling those parts.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1656 (1656)	Wing F967; Thomason E885_13; ESTC R202074	45,528	65

thing in Rev. 6.9 10 11. there is mention made of many slain for the Word of God c. these had white robes given them c these who were slain must needs fall under the X Persecutions under the heathen Emperours and may well in a speciall manner look to that horrible butchery under Dioclesian but if you know those times you will finde there were abundance of Bishops slain in those times I mean Bishops who were above Presbyters in the Church and you shall finde abundance of ceremonies humane inventions in those times in the worship of God yet we finde God doth not show such disdain of them as you doe now he gives them white robes Thus Bp Cranmer Ridley Hooper and abundance of Ministers ordained by those Bishops but suffered gloriously for the testimony which they held the Lord will own them with honour in the Day of Judgment how then you come to cast off so many Ministers of Christ so able in the worke of the Gospel as none have been more able since the Apostles dayes no nor so able so godly in their conversation to whose Ministery God hath sealed in the spirituall children he hath given them and onely because they were ordained by Bishops who yet were Ministers and did Ministeriall work doe you provide to answer for this at that day Some men will scarce own any mans Ordination but that which is by such Bishops and you will own no Ministers who are ordained by such if you two should meet who would be the strongest Parnel Gol p. 26. makes this a proof against our Ministery that it is earthly because in thus many years we have wrought no better reformation 1. But Parnel the English Ministery through grace will show the greatest reformation in the world and yet none in the world opposed like it We can show the souls who confesse by us the Lord inlightened them turned them and hath built them up 2. Then Isaiahs and Ieremiahs with other of the Prophets Ministery was earthly for I am sure they wrought but little reformation 3. What was Christs Ministery earthly also he complains Isa 49.4 that he had laboured in vain 4. What you will have many called and many chosen Christ saith the contrary Conclusion To conclude I dare affirm that there is as true and as able a Ministery in England this day as ever was since the Apostles died and if any Quakers or Separatists will undertake to prove the contrary so they will argue and not babble they shall soon finde those who will answer them While therefore you cast filth upon these I plead not for every particular Minister and upon all the Churches you show your light to be of Satan c. Argum 11 Major That Light which brags of the infallible spirit and yet cannot speak good sense or reason that Light and Spirit must come from Satan not from Christ Minor But such is the Quakers light and infallible Spirit Ergo. Major The Spirit of Christ is a Spirit of wisdome but he that speaketh irrationally nonsense he doth not speak wisely the Spirit of God is a most rationall Spirit and where it speaks it speaks like it self Acts 6.10 They were not able to resist the wisdome and the Spirit by which Stephen spake Thus Paul Apollos c. they spake rationally carried such strength that none could answer them Ministers must be men able to convince 1 Tit. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that talk irrationally will never 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I know Satan can speak rationally sense also which makes us wonder what he means to take such instruments unlesse it be because he is at the last seeing witty Jesuits cannot doe the businesse now try if foolish Quakers can doe it this also I know that reason being a beam of God there can be no true reason for sin or errour Also though abundance of Gods people are weak and shallow yet they never speak truth but they speak sense and reason But here we have a pack mightily insulting over the Ministers because they doe not assume to themselves the infallible Spirit in that notion which the Quakers boast they have it and yet cannot speak rationally Let us hear a little Qua gl● of God p 3 4. there they undertake to answer the arguments the Apostle brings 1 Cor. 9.9 10 11 c. to prove the maintenance of Ministers They that preach on the Gospel must live upon the Gospel This scripture shames you and shews your Gospel will not maintain you but you seek to Magistrat s●● and the Ministers of the Gospel are ashamed of such a pack of teachers This is his answer so He that thresheth thresheth in hope Oh how have they threshed in hope all this while and got forth no corne but are faine to seeke to the Magistrates for me●nes and food So Thou shalt not muzzle the month of the Oxe Oh you shamelesse teachers your mouthes must be muzled have been treading all this while and no corne trodden out to feed you but are faine to seek to the Magistrates Doe not these men speak gallantly Is not here evidence of the infallible Spirit But if these Quakers would have spoken like men thus ye should have said True those who preach the Gospel those who thresh those who tread out c. that is those who doe perform the work of the Lords Ministers in teaching Iabouring faithfully they may challenge maintenance by these Scriptures But you doe not thresh labour c. in the Lords work Therefore you cannot claim maintenance from these Seriptures now you had spoken rationally and there had been matter of shame indeed that we should have called for corn and not wrought but now you have cast all the shame upon the people that we preaching labouring threshing c. are denied our corn our maintenance and are forced to goe to the Magistrates our nursing fathers Isa 49 v. 23. for it Like a man who hath been plowing and threshing halfe a yeare for another when he comes to demand his wages he is denied the man goeth to the Magistrate to be helped the Quakers cry out Oh thou shamelesse man hast thou been plowing and threshing so long and now art fain to goe to the Magistrate c. Doth the man deserve shame or he who deny him his due So here Thus Priests Igno p. 2. The teachers of the world sprinkle Infants telling people its an Ordinance of God which is contrary to the Scriptures and quotes in his margent Gal. 3.1 Luc. 1.26.36 Let any one reade those Scriptures and see how they oppose it he quotes no other Scriptures In the next The teachers of the world call people unto a Sacrament for the which there is no Scripture here they act contrary to the Scriptures quoting Gen. 29.28 the words are these and Iacob did so and fulfilled her weeke and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also and Gen. 10. but no verse These are all the Scriptures Here

wholly to these things Chap. 4. ver 15. not entangle himselfe with the affairs of this life Chap. 2. ver 4. Then must Timothy be maintained by the Church or beg if he have not enough of his own estate to keep him 2. Is your offence at Tithes First it is well known if the Magistrate who is to doe what in him lieth that the people under him may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty 1 Tim. 2.2 why else should the people pray that they might doe so and to this end takes care that according to Gods Institution Ministers be provided who may teach the people all godliness honesty he in the mean time a Nursing Father to them Isa 49. see that they may have an honourable maintenance according to the word I say if the Magistrate could finde a better way for the maintenance of the Ministery every way you shall see how easily Ministers will part with Tithes But now we take them as that which the Supreme power of the Nation for many yeares have allotted to us You have the least cause to be offended at Tithes because Tithes are no mans owne but the Ministers many hundred years since the Parliament of England not the Pope as learned Parnel saith in his books did set apart the Tithes for the maintenance of the Ministery and the supreme Magistrate is but the Feoffee in trust to see that what the people of England in their representative with the King and house of Lords had given to the Ministerie be duly payed them let this convince you if your hearts be sober that Tythes are no mans owne but the Ministers for let a man be to hire a Farme his Landlord cannot let him a Farme that shall pay no Tythes let a man buy a Farme or sell a Farme he can neither buy nor sell a Farme that shall pay no Tythes if a man have a Farme to sell of an hundred pound per annum this Farme may possibly pay twelve pound a yeare for tythes if this man could fell this farme tythe-free would he not raise the price in the sale of it accordingly So would not Landlords let their farmes accordingly if they could let them tithe-free the Tenant should soon finde it But neither the Landlord nor Tenant doe look upon the tythes as theirs but the Ministers whence men let hire buy sell lands as still looking upon them to pay tythes and so none of all these are wronged at all whence tythes are as duly our own as any mans estate is his and that is the reason why when people deny our due we go to the supreme Magistrate who as I said is the Feoffee in trust in his Officers and Courts to help us to our due as any other man wronged goeth for right to any Court whence it is evident it is meer blindnesse if not madnesse which makes people talk thus against Ministers taking of Tithes for we take onely what is our own and no mans else As for lands so for houses we observe the long Parliament made two Acts it may be more that I know not of one for Bristoll another for Colchester that according to the rents of houses so men should pay not exceeding a certain summe a very little one I am sure I know wicked spirits raile at the Magistracie for doing this but herein the Parliament did what was equal and just before God and man For as I said in my first if the Magistrate be bound to take care that the people under him doe lead a life in all godlinesse c. which comprehends the first Table of the Law then the Magistrate must set up able men no slight fellowes that may answer the qualifications in the Word to teach the people then reason besides the Word saith these must be fed maintained and that as become their places surely the Magistrate who hath power to raise a taxe when the good of the Common-wealth requires it hath as much power to cause people to pay towards the upholding of the Officers and Ordinances of God unlesse Religion doe nothing concern the interest and good of the Common-wealth which to affirm is to fall below Heathenisme As for such as affirm that the Magistrate hath nothing to doe in the Church the care of it doth not at all belong to him I think such devilish principles deserve not an answer yet they are answered though such owne not the Scriptures yet let them but go to the Heathens and they will shame them 3. It is well known there are abundance of Ministers who take not their tythes in kinde but compound with the people for their tythes I would faine see the enemies of the Ministers prove that ever the Priests in the old Law could doe such a thing then still we take not our Tythes as the Priests All Ministers would doe thus would people be reasonable in their compositions but we finde they defraud us 4. For Tythes it is impossible that the Supreme power should ever settle a more equall and easie way for the maintenance of the Ministery than this way of Tythes already set 1. Not more equall for therein we rise and fall with the people we share with their blessings and crosses we have little or more as they have little or more 2. Not more easie because as I said neither the buyer nor seller neither he that hires nor he that lets doe look on Tythes as theirs and is it a burden for men to pay for what is none of their own and they esteem none of their own as in my second I have opened Object But you should trust God for your maintenance Answer So we doe and desire to doe but we will not nor dare trust you if your corruption be touched or your rotten opinion be opposed if your covetous lust stirre and that reigns what is next we must seek for maintenance 2. We see God hath taken care for us already many hundred years before we were born in setling an estate upon us by the Supreme power of the Nation 3. You would have done well had you lived in the Primitive Churches when the Magistrate was an Heathen and so took no care for the Church but to destroy it but yet even then they were so free to maintain the Officers and Ordinances of Christ c that they could have Church stocks to maintain all with the poor the sick strangers yet then were Bishops besides Presbyters and none of these were to meddle with Secular cares for if they did they were to be cast out Can. Apost 7.80 as the Canons then made declare Had that spirit that is now amongst professors been in those dayes it had been very ill with the Church as it is now and should be worse might such Christians have their wills To gather up all then since Christ in his word hath commanded that we should be maintained since the Magistrate being Christian hath long since appointed us maintenance