abstaine from meats c. Q. Can you give an instance of God's threatning to remove his Candlestick from any place or people where it was once set A. Yes Rev. 2.5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen and repent and doe the first workes or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his place except thou repent Q. VVas Timothy Bishop or Minister at Ephesus or at Rome when the Apostle Paul taught him how he ought to behave himselfe in the house of God the Church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth A. 1 Tim. 1.3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus when I went into Macedonia that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other Doctrine Q. VVas it possible that when once Ephesus was called the house of the living God the pillar and ground of truth that ever Ephesus should be un-churched or that the Gospell should be removed from them A. Revel 2.1 5. Unto the Angell of the Church of Ephesus write c. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen and repent and doe the first works or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his Place except thou repent Q. What learne we from those words the pillar and ground of truth if applyed to the Church A. That 't is the duty priviledg of the Church to hold forth the Truth that men may know it and to uphold maintaine and defend it against those who oppose it Pillars doe hold forth and uphold the Orders and proclamations of Magistrates which are hanged on them or affixed to them If this Scripture had been of as much force signification applyed to Ephesus as the Romanists would have it to the Church of Rome Ephesus had remained to this day Q. Can any man really and properly by his own power and authority forgive sinnes A. Mark 2.7 Who can forgive sinnes but God only compared with Is 43.25 I even I am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake and will not remember thy sinnes Exod. 34.6 7. The Lord the Lord God mercifull and gracious keeping mercy for thousands forgiving iniquity and transgression and sinne Mic. 7.18 Who is a God like unto thee that pardoneth iniquity and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage Q. Had Christ God-man power on earth to forgive sinnes A. Mark 2.5 10. When Jesus saw their Faith he said unto the sick of the palsie Son thy sinnes be forgiven thee But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sinnes Q. Did our Lord Christ give power to his Apostles and their successors to declare forgivenesse of sinnes to penitent and believing sinners A. Joh. 20.23 Whose soever sinnes ye remit they are remitted unto them and whose soever sinnes ye retain they are retained Q. Had the other Apostles power and their successors as well as Peter and in the same sence and manner to forgive sinnes or to declare unto man remission Were the Keyes given to the other Apostles besides Peter A. Yes Joh. 20.23 Whose soever sins ye remit c. Q. Doth the Apostle in his Epistle to the Romans mention any such priviledg of the Roman Church that to her were committed the Holy Scriptures and the Interpretation of them or were the Holy Scriptures of old committed to the Jewish Church A. Rom. 3.1 2. What advantage hath the Jew Unto them were committed the oracles of God Q. VVhen the Apostle Paul writes to the Corinthians and charges them with schisme faction and division was it because they did not hold of Cephas or Peter or was it because some held of Paul and some of Apollo and some of Cephas and some of Christ that they cried up one to the decrying and undervaluing of another A. 1 Corinth 1.12 Now this I say that every one of you saith I am of Paul and I of Apollo and I of Cephas and I of Christ Q. Did the Apostle Paul acknowledg Peter's Supremacy or did Peter challenge any Jurisdiction over Paul or was it agreed when there was a distribution of their Ministry that one should apply himselfe to the Jewes and the other to the Gentiles A. Galath 2.7 8 9. But contrariwise when they saw that the Gospell of the uncircumcision was committed unto me as the Gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter for he that wrought effectually in Peter to the Apostleship of the circumcision the same was mighty in me towards the Gentiles And when James Cephas and John who seemed to be pillars perceived the grace that was given unto me they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship that we should goe unto the Heathen and they unto the Circumcision Q. When the Apostle reckons up the severall Orders that God hath set in the Church doth he say first Peter then the Apostles after them Prophets then Peter's Successor the Bishop of Rome under Christ and the Apostle Peter the cheife Pastor and Teacher of the Church A. Ephes 4.11 And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastours and Teachers Q. When the Apostle Peter his death approacheth and he undertakes to mind those to whom he writes to make their calling and election sure and tels them if they doe those things which he exhorts unto they shall never fall but have an abundant entrance into the everlasting Kingdome of our Lord Christ And when he treats of the Holy Scriptures and foretels false Prophets to come who shall bring in damnable heresies doth he tell them they must follow the Bishop of Rome when he is gone and heare him that he must interpret Scripture be Christ's Vicar and oppose heretiques and seducers A. No. 2 Epist of Peter 1.10 11 13 15. Wherefore the rather Brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure for if ye doe these things ye shall never fall For so an entrance shall be administred unto you into the everlasting Kingdome of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Yea I think it meet as long as I am in this Tabernacle to stir you up by putting you in remembrance Moreover I will endeavour that you may be able after my decease to have these things alwaies in Remembrance 2 Pet. 3.1 2 17 18. This second Epistle beloved I now write unto you in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance That ye may be mindfull of the words which were spoken before by the holy Prophets and of the commandement of us the Apostles of the Lord and Saviour Ye therefore beloved seeing ye know these things before beware lest ye also being led away with the errour of the wicked fall from your own stedfastnesse but grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ Q. Did the Apostle Paul ever oppose and admonish the Apostle Peter A. Galath 2.11 12 14. But when Peter was come to
that I aime at and endeavour their conversion and not their confusion I know the Apostles themselves had a zeale but not according to knowledge when they were so earnest to have called for fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans the Sons of Thunder would have been Sons of Lightning too but they had not so learned of Christ ye know not saith he of what spirit ye are of And afterwards when the Spirit of Christ came down upon the Apostles in the dayes of Pentecost though with a rushing mighty wind and sate upon each of them in the likenesse of fiery cloven tongues yet neither did that wind smite the corners of any house that it fell nor those fiery tongues singe a haire of their own or others heads Instead of calling for fire from heaven to consume you I pray and endeavour that I may shew you a light from heaven shining round about you above the light of the Sun at noon-day I mean cleare and evident Scriptures to inlighten convince and convert you If I desire to be sometimes a Boanerges indeed yet 't is in order to be a Barnabas If I heap coales of fire on your heads I seek to melt you not to burne you when I thunder against error I desire my speeches and actions may be like that lightning which breaks or melts the sword and doth not hurt the scabbard I desire to melt your soules but not doe the least hurt to your bodies the sheath of your soules That there is a God and this God is to be worshipped is I hope written in your hearts as with a pen of iron or point of a Diamond that is with a lasting or indelible and as with a Sun-beam that is with a legible character And if you say wherewithal shall I come before God and bow my selfe unto the most high shall I make an Image or likenes of him or shall I come to him by the Mediation of Saints and Angels I answer He hath shewed thee O man what is good and what doth the Lord thy God require of thee and what thou shouldest believe and doe Thou needest not say who shall ascend up into heaven to bring Christ down from above But the word is nigh thee in thy mouth and in thy heart and this is the word which in this Treatise is made known unto you Since men therefore erre because they know not the Scriptures the manifestation of the Scriptures thus to every man's conscience may possibly prove a good way and meanes to reclaime them from errour God hath magnified his word above all his name and therefore 't is but reason that men should advance it above all humane Testimony and if you will plead the Testimony of men surely the Testimony of God is greater Yea if you would be but Reasonable if you would shew your selves men and act as Religious men and good Scholars men of the purest and highest Reason I might boldly plead with you thus and shew you what I have to say on God's behalfe I might desire you to heare God speak in the Scriptures and say whether it be fit to believe and obey God or man Judge ye If you plead Scripture pretending that your Church of Rome was once true I may justly alleadge Scriptures to shew from whence you are fallen and to prove that you have greatly erred Is the Scripture of force to prove that she was once a true Church and a chast Spouse of Christ and is it not to be pleaded in evidence that now she is become a Mother of Fornications and hath committed Adultery with stocks and stones For our parts we are willing to stand and fall by Scripture to be weighed in the same ballance of the Sanctuary with you to have our Gold tryed by the same touchstone of the word and to be measured by the same bushel or Epha by which we measure you or others If you appeale from a higher to a lower court from God to Man from Scriptures to Fathers besides that 't is against the mind of God against right reason and the Methods of wise men so 't is against the Desire and Doctrines of the Fathers I dare say if they should arise againe from the dead they would rather say we be Judges of no such matters or who made us a judge over the Scriptures yea being dead they yet speak in their writings against such positions and practises they make the Scriptures their Judges and make not themselves judges of the Scripture yea if the Fathers might be heard out testifying fully to the perfection and sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures that one sentence of theirs will prove a condemnation of Popery of the body and soule of it the Fathers themselves being Judges Possibly it may be said by some of you that the Protestant Religion is but of yesterday and knows nothing of the Fathers nor the Fathers of it that such a novel faith as it may be pretēded to be dares not appeare at the Tribunall of the Fathers The truth is if there were no Scripture the Protestants durst adventure the Ordeal or tryall by Fathers and Councels saving alwaies the Honour of the Holy Scriptures and our just Liberty of appeale unto them the Protestants golden Faith doth not feare the silver haires of the Antient Fathers The truth is we would not be cheated or gulled with mouldy bread and old shooes a mere pretence of Religion that came to us from far from many ages agoe when as indeed in truth aske the Primitive Fathers and they will tell you another Story that we are the children of the Primitive and most antient Church If you will heare the Protestants judgment plea and evidence in this matter let me produce three or four to speak for the rest Mr Perkins reckoning up divers points of Popery as that the Pope or Bishop of Rome is the Vicar of Christ and the head of the Catholique Church that there is a fire of Purgatory after this life that Images of God and Saints are to be placed in Churches and worshiped that prayers are to be made to Saints departed and their intercession to be required that there is a propitiatory sacrifice daily offered in the masse for the sinnes of the quick and the dead observes that the Apostles creed hath not any of these points nor the expositions made thereof by the Antient Fathers nor any other creed or confession of faith made by any Council or Church for the space of many hundred yeers Mr Perkin's Advertisement to all favourers of the Romish Religion Yea the same Author undertakes to prove that for 1200 yeers no Father or Council held all the points of Doctrine of the Trent Faith Demon of the Probleme Sometimes saith Dr Ferne we meet with phrases in the Fathers favouring some Romish Doctrine but then we shew by Argument and Reason that those doe not speak indeed the Romish sense againe the Romanists have the shadow the shell the name
the phrase many times but we carry the substance shew the thing the sense the judgment the Deeds of Antiquity Against some high expressions magnifying the Church of Rome we bring deeds and those upon contestation as the standing out of Polycrates and all the Asian Bishops against the sentence of Pope Victor Also in the contestation betwixt Cyprian and Pope Stephen Also in the contestation between the Romane See and the African Bishops amongst whom Austin was one in the businesse of Appeales see Dr Ferne p. 229. 230. The infallibility of the Pope or the Roman Church was never acknowledged by the Antient Churches or Fathers for 600 yeers after Christ therefore it is not now to be received Baxter against Pop. p. 277. There are as it were three principall parts in Religion namely points of Belief of Ceremony and of Discipline we shall run them over lightly all three that so we may let the world see that in every one of these three parts they have both abolished and established many things expresly against the Authority of the Antients Mons Daillè of the Fathers lib. 2. pag. 143 when he hath instanced in particulars he addes pag. 177. Certainely should we but speak the truth it is the plainest mocking of the world that can be to cry out as these men doe continually The Fathers the Fathers and to write so many whole volumes as they have done upon this subject after they have so dealt with them as you have seen And pag. 141. nd 142. Doe but read their Commentaries their Disputations and their other discourses and you will find them almost in every page either rejecting or correcting the Fathers And further he addes as followeth But I must not passe by the Testimony of Cornelius Mussus Bishop of Bitonto viz. for my own part that I may speak my mind freely in things that belong to the testimony of Faith I had rather believe one single Pope than a thousand Augustines Hieromes or Gregories If you will appeale from the holy Scriptures and from the Authority of the Catholick Church to the Roman or Church of one denomination from the Primitive to the Present or from the antient to the moderne and dare not or will not be judged by any body but by your selves besides that you are guilty of high presumption thus to advance your selves into the chaire above all so is it a strong presumption of guilt in you that you dare not abide the tryall of the most impartiall and unbyassed Judges and hereby you declare that the Authority of the Fathers is not supream in your account and why then should you expect it should be authoritative with us and if you appeale from the Fathers here to the present Church why may we not rather to the Scriptures I shall adde also that when you appeale to Churches or Fathers or Councels from Scripture you doe shew your selves more subtle than the Pharisees who to all Christ's allegations of Scripture never put in such an answer that there is but one true Church we are the true Church we are the Interpreters of Scripture Yea I shall go a step farther with you and tell you that if you appeale from Scripture testimony to your present Church or to some visible and infallible judge of all controversies you doe therein out-goe that old Sophister the Devill who when he disputed with our Saviour and Scripture was urged against him had not the Jewish Churches Authority the Interpretations of Scribes and Pharisees no never a such reserve or castle to fly unto There are two great Errors mother-errors of you the children of the Church of Rome concerning the holy Scriptures the one is that you will not goe to it as to your last judge on earth and the other that you endeavour to bring this to you to speak for you what it never thought And here in two things you greatly erre The promises in Scripture made to the Church in generall you apply to a particular Church or to a part of the Catholique Church namely to the Romane Not sufficiently considering what became of Jerusalem where our Lord preached and where the Apostle Peter preached and founded a Christian Church before ever if ever he saw Rome notwithstanding all the promises made either to the Church in generall to the Jewish Church or to the Apostle Peter or to the Church founded by him in particular The promises made to Peter and that 't is said before he was Pope you apply in part at least to the Bishops of Rome yea will have them reach the Apostle Peter's Successors and stand them in steed and in some things too wherein they did not secure Peter himselfe to keep him from falling namely for their making alwaies an outward confession of the Faith for ye know Peter did in word deny his master The truth is diverse Popish Doctrines such as the Communion in one kind prayers and service in an unknown tongue making Images of the Trinity worshipping of them c. are so plainly contrary to the Scriptures that 't is your carnall interest if you will maintaine those Doctrins to deny or at least to undervalue the Authority of these in comparison of the present Church As for us as we highly and above all extoll the testimony of Scripture so neither doe we think our selves obliged to suppresse or silence the Fathers of the 1st three or four hundred yeers only we would not admit supposititious writings or testimonies the base brats of latter times for the true children of the antient Fathers nor would we have the present Church of Rome by her expurgatory Index's corrupt glosses c. to teach the Fathers to speak now and that what they never meant And as you dishonour the Fathers in laying bastard-works at their doores so have you wronged the Canon of the Scriptures by advancing the Apocrypha books into the same chaire and throne with them and in this how you have forsaken the Ancient Fathers and Councels D.C. a late Author hath shewed very well And yet this is remarkable that the pretended Councel of Trent have made a rod for their own backs I mean they have added the book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremiah in the 6th of Baruch to the Canon and there as in a glasse they may see what a whores fore-head the Church of Rome hath to commit Idolatry with stocks stones doing diverse the same things to their Images that the Heathens the old Babylonians did to their Idols or Images Heare Dr Westfield The Gentiles were wont to bow down to their Images so doe the Papists the Gentiles were wont to pray to them so doe the Papists the Gentiles were wont to render thanks to them so doe the Papists the Gentiles were wont to dedicate themselves and all that they had to their Idols so doe the Papists the Gentiles nuncupated vowes to them so do the Papists the Gentiles were wont to sweare by them so doe the Papists the
Gentiles were wont to set up candles to them so doe the Papists The Gentiles were wont to burne incense to them so doe the Papists So he and I doe not know that there is any one who hath answered this charge since extant See Dr Westfields Serm p. 64. 65. Such like 't is not improbable is the moderne practise of the common people under the Papacy I have heard to this effect that when the late King was in Spain reasoning against worshipping of Images with a Priest who denying the charg it was agreed betwixt them to take the next Person they found at devotions in their Churches for an experiment The Priest bespake the Person a woman to this purpose Good Woman you doe not pray to this Image or Saint but to God in it I but I doe saith the woman and will doe till you shew me a better Till the yeer 788. Images were never appointed publickly to be worshipped in the Churches and this was done in the second Council of Nice Charles the Great sent this Act of the Counciil to the Bishops of England to know how they liked it they said Alas for woe we find in those acts many things against Christian Religion especially this that the worshipping of Images is decreed which the Church of God curseth Dr Westfeild pag. 60. 61. If you say then where was our Church or Religion before Luther and call us to give a catalogue in all ages of men professing our Faith and way of worship and that the Fathers and all Antiquity were yours Heare I pray you the saying of Mr Du Moulin This reproach of novelty ill becomes the mouthes of those persons which hide the true Antiquity from the people which is the word of God and which maintain that yet at this day the Church may and can make new ordinances touching Faith and which by the Church understand no other than the Romish Church that in the first ages after the Apostles cannot produce one man that was of their Religion and which know that in all Antiquity there is no mention made of excluding the people from the cup of prohibiting them the reading of the Holy Scriptures of reading the Scriptures to the people in a language they understand not of painting the Trinity of worshipping Images of adoring the hoast with the worship of Latria of private Masses of the Bishop of Romes Court c. If you will have us tell more particularly who were of our Religion before Luther know that Christ and the holy Apostles were and as for other names of particular persons who held with us in the Doctrines above named or diverse other materiall Doctrines the Protestants referre you to Dr Field of the Church Birckbeck's Protestant's Evidence and let me send you also to the Martyrologies in England and France c. and I shall adde one more and that is a testimony of your own which I find cited formerly and lately And that is of Raynerus the Monke concerning the Waldenses c. 4. where he saith that they have continued say some from the time of Sylvester others from the time of the Apostles that there 's scarce any land where they are not that they live righteously before all men bene omnia de Deo credunt omnes Articulos qui in Symbolo continentur solummodo Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant clerum i.e. they believe althings well concerning God all the Articles that are contained in the Creed only they blaspheme the Romane Church and the Clergy And what if there were some 1000â— of true Worshippers in the Church of Rome before the Reformation as there were 7000 in Israel who had not bowed their knees to Baal or what if we be the same Church now that we were before only then Apostaticall Idolatrous Leprous as white as snow but now professors of the true Faith without corrupt mixtures and of the pure worship and so cured of our Leprosy If you aske what Authority we had to reforme our selves I referre you to Dr Bramhal for satisfaction who shewes it was done in England by King and Priest and that the Popish Princes upon occasion claime a right and power to doe what indeed we have done i. e. to reforme the Churches under them or to the like effect See Bramhal of Schisme There was a Reformation desired before Luther and the Princes of Germany represented their hundred grievances to the Emperour But what mighty men could not God hath brought about by mean men nor needed Martin Luther and the rest any Commissions extraordinary sealed with the broad seales of new miracles to authorize his or their proclaiming the laws and edicts of the great God the King of Heaven We judge it lawfull for men to obey the commands of God doing the duties of their places without a license from men so to doe Besides seeing that the Reformers did preach the same Doctrine which Christ and his Apostles did and set up the same way of worship which they did all which was formerly confirmed by miracles it is not reasonable to demand that they should shew by new miracles that they had Authority to reforme the Church of God And herein Luther and the rest shewed themselves to be of the truth because they went not about to deceive meÌ„ with lying wounders or miracles to get credit to their persons or Doctrine such as the Romish Legends have for the honour of their Saints and confirmation of their new Articles of Faith In my opinion he must have a monstrous Faith who believes but one halfe or the moiety of their miracles if the whole dose be like that tast of them Mr Baxter gives us out of Dr White and he out of Baronius as that Francis turned a capon into a fish and water into wine made the rock send forth water and anchors to swim converted a Lambe by preaching to him that he caused Swallows Grashoppers and a wild Falcon to joyne with him in the praises of God That Bernard by blessing their ale and giving it some lewd persons to drinke caused God's grace to enter into them that he killed 〈◊〉 by excommunication c. Baxter out of Francis Whites defence of his Brother pag. 147 148. And again that their Nicolas while he lay in his cradle fasted Wednesday and Friday that Patrick caused a â—â—ollen sheep to bleat in the belly of him that had eaten him that Fryar Andrew to correct his appetite of eating birds at the Table by the signe of the Crosse commanded them to fly away after they were roasted Mr Baxter pag. 167. 168. from Dr â—â—eatly If you object against us our differences and divisions Protestants may returne Are there not divisions in opinion even amongst you also and with you more intollerable because you pretend you have an infallible visible judge of all controversies How have you differed about the conception of the blessed Virgin about the supremacy of the Pope or a generall Councill c. What adoe was there 'twixt
Watson and Parsons here in the dayes of Queen Elizabeth and of latter times 'twixt the Jansenians and Jesuites abroad 2ly It may be said that for our present ruptures either you have made or else maintained and continued diverse of our breaches 3ly That when we come to heaven and not before we may expect that all men should be of the same opinion in every thing 4ly That the Protestant Churches doe agree in the maine and fundamentals of our Religion See the Harmony of Confess and wherein we differ I and 1000 s other Protestants desire to use Scripture Prayer and sound reason to convince those who are otherwise minded We desire to use soft words and hard reasons to draw men with cords of love and not to burne and consume them with coales of fire Yea I dare almost put it to your selves to be Judges whether there have not been in Queen Mary's daies in four yeers more Protestants put to death in England than there have been Papists in fourscore since And now if you object against the Protestant Churches for want of a right ministry pretending their want of succession or a right ordination or a right Government and jurisdiction to these it may be replyed 1 That succession in pure Doctrine is a better marke of a true Church than succession into the seats and places of former Orthodox Pastors 2ly That it is almost if not utterly impossible for you Papists to know who is the true Pastor the Bishop of Rome whom you pretend you must follow considering the many Schismes and the indirect corrupt waies whereby diverse have advanced themselves into the chaire 3ly Our first Reformers were ordained Ministers by your Church and Mr Mason shewes you a succession since To him you may adde a little piece of Sr John Harrington as a supplement to Mr Mason and Dr Ferne hath justified the consecrations of our first Bishops against those frivolous allegations made against them 4ly If you should quarrell with us now because Bishops are in a great measure laid aside as if no ordination could possibly be valid except by Bishops and therefore that if now we have true Ministers yet without Restauration of Bishops we can have none no Ministers long I answer that although I am not yet plerophorized that a Primitive Bishop or Episcopus praeses is utterly unlawfull yet I am not fully convinced that they are an Institution of Christ and essentiall or absolutely necessary to the very being of a Church or ministry I dare not so easily unchurch those of the Reformed Religion abroad who have no Bishops name or thing Bishops or Superintendents and in this I am not alone the late Reverend Dr Usher sometimes an Arch-Bishop himselfe was of the like judgment See his life and death by Dr Bernard Yea in the Church of Rome sometimes there hath been allowed Ordination by other hands than by Bishops if I mistake not And the Master of the Sentences holds but two orders jure divino Presbyters and Deacons See Pet Lumb And if I misremember not I have read that the Spaniards hindred it in the Council of Trent that it did not passe that all Bishops except the Bishop of Rome were jure humano or to that effect And Medina who disputed at the Councill of Trent touching the Superiority of a Bishop above a Priest affirms that Jerome was in this point of Aerius his opinion and that not only he but also Ambrose and Austin Sedulius Primasius Chrysostomus Theodoret Oecumenius and Theophylact maintained all of them the same Heresy So hee If the Charity so some Protestants be a stumbling block which lyes in your way to hinder you from leaving your Errors and professing the truth I shall endeavour briefly to remove that out of your way First Were I in your case and did not I resigne up my Judgment to the Scriptures according to that infallible rule to judge which is the true Church I would avoid that Church most where is professed and practised the greatest cruelty and joyne to that soonest where is professed and practised the greatest charity You professe at least many of you that 't is impossible for us to be saved that 't is absolutely necessary to salvation to be a member of the Roman Church to believe the Articles of the Trent faith and to live and dye in the communion of the Roman Church in subjection unto the Bishop of Rome whom you call Christ's Vicar and Peter's Successor Hear what a learned and religious Person saith to this point Must Paul be damned because he was not one of Peter's subjects doe not your consciences know he writes to the literate Romanists that swearing obedience to the Pope of Rome was a thing unknown for many hundred yeares yea that it is a novelty in the world Againe when I read so many plain promises in the Scriptures that whoever believeth in Christ shall not perish and that if by the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the body we shall live and that if we repent our sins shall be forgiven yea that Godlinesse hath the promise of this life and that to come and then when I find that the Papists for all these certain promises doe unchurch and damne us all because we believe not in the Pope of Rome as well as in Christ this satisfied me as fully that you are audacious Schismaticks as I am satisfied that you are Papists So hee Mr Baxter against popery The Papists will sometimes brag of their Charity they give perhaps a piece of bread to some of our poor and yet unchurch us poore and rich they would not stick I feare had they power in their hands to burne our bodies saying we are Hereticks and they doe as much as in them lyes to damne our soules and if this be their charity Oh my soule come not thou into their secrets And yet doe not the Papists lay too great a stresse on the charity of some Protestants considering the Assertion of Mr Perkins which saith that A Reprobate may in truth be made partaker of all that is contained in the Religion of the Church of Rome and a Papist by his Religion cannot goe beyond a Reprobate Perk. Vol. 1. p. 396. 404. And what Dr Usher said namely to this effect being asked by a Papist whether a Papist may be sav'd that one that holds all the Tenets of the Council of Trent and lives accordingly without Repentance cannot be saved he said there were two plaine places for it the places I did not heare but suppose them to be 2 Thes 2.11 12. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusions that they should believe a lye that they all might be damned who believe not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousnesse And Rev. 14.9 10 11. If any man worship the beast and his image and receive his marke in his forehead or in his hand the same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God And the smoke of
their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever And they have no rest day nor night who worship the Beast and his image c. Mr Baxter saith if a Papist be saved it must be as a Christian and not as a Papist as if a lyar might be saved it must not be by lying but by Faith and Repentance he thinks it not impossible for some one or more to be saved as 't is possible for here and there one to escape of a raging pestilence but if so it is not by his disease or plague of Popery but by the wholsome remedy of Faith and Repentance Vid. Baxt. Oh that God would perswade your hearts to come to hast out of Romish Babylon that ye partake not of her sins and of her plagues at the last Depart depart from the tents of these men come over I beseech you unto us and be safe if you believe and obey Be not deceived be not blindfolded search and try whether the holy Scriptures whether the Lord Christ the Apostle Paul to the Romans or the Apostle Peter in his Epistles to the Hebrewes ever made the Church of Rome the mother and mistresse of all Churches and to whom we must come and whom we must believe even without the word or we cannot possibly be saved See whether it be expresly laid down in Scripture that ever Peter was at Rome but judge in your selves if he sate Bishop there 25 yeers whether or no it was not very probable that Paul would in some of his Epistles which he wrote thence have made mention of him and what did the Apostle Peter forsake Paul when he was at Rome and stood for the defence of the Gospell if Peter was there at that time for Paul complaines saying All men forsook me 1 Tim. 4.16 Or if Peter was Bishop of Rome what then could none be saved for 3 or 4 or 600 yeers after Christ because the Pope was not 'till then owned as the Universall Pastor of the Church no nor did 'till then claime the title of Oecumenicall Bishop Were there not three Popes at a time and all three deposed by the Council of Constance yea 't is a commonly cited saying of Gregory the Great Bishop of Rome that he that had that title was praecursor Antichristi or forerunner of Antichrist Yea how came the Bishop of Rome to claime a power over other Bishops more than Peter did over the other Apostles or how come Peter's successors suppose the Bishop of Rome be so to succeed Peter in his power priviledges not other Bishops who succeeded the other Apostles in their Churches to have the power and priviledges which those Apostles had whom they succeeded yea how came the Church at Jerusalem where Christ himselfe preached in person where Peter had a speciall hand in laying as it were the foundation or planting of the Christian Church after Christ was ascended Act. 2.37 38 41. how comes that Church to erre to fall away and yet the Church of Rome to be infallible Shew us if you can either plain Scripture or Father or Council for 4 or 500 yeers that interpreted Scripture so that Rome was infallible and all were for ever to receive their faith from her mouth under paine of a curse and damnation and that too when she commands contrary to the Institutions of Christ and to the Doctrine contained in the Scriptures as she doth in her denying the cup to the people in latine service where the people doe not understand it in forbidding Priests marriage c. Oh that ye would lay aside prejudice and disaffection and apply your selves to the study of the holy Scriptures think never the better of Mahumetanisme because it must not be questioned nor of Popery because 't is death in Italy or Spaine without recantation to read a Spanish or Italian Bible without a license how absurd are these men to hinder children from looking into their Fathers Testament or to forbid men to obey God except they have first got mens leave so to doe Let not your Priests perswade you to lay out of your hands the holy Scripture and to fill them with Legends and Fables to put out the Sun in the firmament that you may see with their candles or glow-wormes Oh! doe not throw away the light of the Word nor put out your own Reason that candle of the Lord to follow your blind guides in the darknesse of error as ye would not fall into the ditch and into the pit Oh! that you would not despise the day of small things that you would please to read and consider this plain Catechisticall confutation of your errors I hope by pat and pertinent Scriptures I have read how a plain country-man with one text of Scripture convinced an erroneous Person when great Schollars and much disputing and reasoning could not doe My desire and prayer is that this Treatise may have the like effect that the Scriptures here cited may convince those who have erred from the truth and may turne them from darknesse to light and from the power of Satan and of Error unto God Oh! how glad should I be if I could but undeceive and save some of you by this meanes if I could pluck you as fire-brands out of the fire Truly my desire and prayer is and shall be if the will of God be so that ye may be in God's way i. e. read his word believe and obey it that ye may be saved And one thing let me say think to be saved by your own Faith and not meerly by believing as the Church believes doe not trust in God for salvation by an Atturney as ye would not be contented to be saved only by a Proxey And be not amused with a great noise and great names of Fathers and Councils which they that boast doe it saith one because they know you cannot or have not leisure either to read or understand and so cannot disprove them see Moulin but to the Law and to the Testimony and the word is neer thee and of the Bible I am sure I may say Blessed is he that readeth and that understandeth the sayings of this Book I seek not yours but you and oh that you could or would away with your dungie and drossy errors and that you might keep your gold and silver and on condition you would part with two parts of your errors I hope I should not envy you your whole estates Yet say not that our Religion is cruel and that you are Martyrs for yours because 't is the cause not the punishment or suffering makes a Martyr and you suffer in your purses for the Error of your Consciences I hope we Protestants shall never be put to try yet we could have no such bargaine if the law was in your hands although the truth is you pay too deare for a false Religion for I may say of Religion as of the Prophet Jeremys figs the good is very good and the bad very bad if it be true
is my body Q. If the wine had been as really and truly turned or transubstantiated into blood as the water at the wedding was by Christ into wine is it not probable it would have tasted like blood A. Joh. 2.9 10. When the Ruler of the Feast had tasted the water that was made wine and knew not whence it was c. saith Every man at the begining doth set forth good wine and when men have well drunk then that which is worse but thou hast kept the good wine untill now Q. Is it the eating of or feeding on Christ by Faith in the Sacrament or is it the corporal eating or manducation of his very flesh which is available to feed the soule unto eternall life A. Joh. 6.63 It is the Spirit that quickneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speake unto you they are Spirit and they are life Q. May we lawfully say that the elements remaine untransubstantiated that they are really still and substantially bread and wine only changed as to the use after consecration because we see with our eyes handle them and tast them to be such A. Luk. 24.39 Behold my hands and my Feet that it is I my selfe handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have John 20.27 Then saith he to Thomas reach hither thy finger and behold my hands and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side and be not Faithlesse c. Q. Doth our Lord Christ use any other figurative expressions in the institution of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper A. Yes 1 Cor. 11.25 This Cup is the New Testament in my blood Q. But are unlearned people able to understand such figurative expressions A. Yes If a man was in a roome where are divers pictures or Images and should heare one say this is Peter and this is Paul he would understand his meaning to be this is the likenesse representation Picture or Image of Peter and Paul Q. Hath Christ given as much power to every true Church of God ordinarily to forgive sinnes as he did to Peter or the other Holy Apostles A. Mat. 18.18 Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven Q. Is it more evident by Scripture that the Apostle Peter was the Apostle of the Jewes or circumcision than of the Gentiles A. Gal. 2.7 8. When they saw that the Gospell of the uncircumcision was committed unto me as the Gospell of the Circumcision was unto Peter For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the Apostleship of the Circumcision the same was mighty in me towards the Gentiles Q. Suppose the Apostle Peter was Bishop of Rome doth that make it more impossible for the Church of Rome to erre or fall from the Faith once delivered to the Saints than for the Jewes A. Rom. 11.17 18 20 21. And if some of the branches be broken off and thou being a wild olive tree wert graffed in amongst them boast not against the branches because of unbeliefe they were broken off and thou standest by Faith be not high minded but feare Q. Did God promise his presence of old with the Church of the Jewes A. Rom. 9.4 Who are Israelites to whom pertaineth the Adoption and the Glory and the Covenants and the giving of the Law the service of God the Promises Q. May those who are God's children and people be unchurched A. Act. 13.46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you but seeing ye put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life loe we turne to the Gentiles Q. Was the true Church of God amongst the Jewes alwaies a congregation of true worshippers visibly and notoriously distinct from Idolaters or were the true worshippers sometimes hid amongst Idolaters as wheat in a heap of chaffe A. 1 King 19.18 Yet I have left me 7000 in Israel all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal and every mouth which hath not kissed him Q. Is it possible that the Protestants should be of the true Religion if they grant that their Church was in spirituall Babylon or Egypt that is in the Romish Church before the Reformation A. Yes Rev. 18.4 Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that ye receive not of her plagues 2 Cor. 6.17 Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord and touch not the uncleane thing and I will receive you Q. Who is the chiefe rock and foundation upon whom the Church is built is not Christ A. 1 Cor. 10.4 For they drank of that spirituall rock that followed them and that rock was Christ 1 Cor. 3.11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is layd which is Jesus Christ Q. Are any of the Apostles cal'd foundations or especially any besides Peter A. Yes Re. 21.14 And the wall of the City had 12 foundations and in them the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lambe Eph. 2.20 And are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ himselfe being the chief corner stone Q. Are any of the Apostles besides Peter accounted Pillars Columnes or supporters in the Christian Church that spirituall building A. Yes Gal. 2.9 And when James Cephas and John who seemed to be Pillars c. Q. May Soveraigne Princes with the Advice of the Ministers of the Gospel in the Churches within their dominions reforme abuses and errours crept into the Churches A. 2 Chr. 29.5 16. Heare me ye Levites sanctify now your selves and sanctify the house of the Lord God of your Fathers and carry forth the filthinesse out of the holy place And the Priests went into the inner part of the house of the Lord to clense it and brought out all the uncleannesse that they found in the Temple of the Lord into the court of the house of the Lord and the Levites took it to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron 2 Chr. 34.30 31. And the King went up into the house of the Lord and all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the Priests and the Levites and all the people great and small and he read in their eares all the words of the book of the Covenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the King stood in his place and made a Covenant before the Lord to walke after the Lord and to keep his commandements and his Testimonies and his Statutes with all his heart and with all his soule c. Q. Is that a true Church where the word is truly and duely taught or is it the true marke of a sheep of Christ to heare the voice of him the great Shepheard A. Yes 1 Tim. 3.15 That thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thy selfe in the house of God which
Q. Is the Church of Rome or the Pope infalible because of the promises made to Peter Mat. 16.18 Luk. 22.32 A. As Herod might and did erre in cutting off John Baptists head notwithstanding that he succeeded into the place of David and Solomon Kings of the Jewes and notwithstanding the saying that is written Prov. 16.10 A divine sentence is in the King's lips his mouth transgresseth not in judgment So the Bishop of Rome or the Church of Rome or any other particular Church or person may now erre notwithstanding what was once said to Peter Secondly Jesus Christ prayed that Peter might not fall from his Faith in Christ totally and finally or that the Divel might not prevaile over him notwithstanding he foresaw he would shake him and winnow him sore and this latter promise was made good to Peter in his own person for although through temptation he denyed Christ outwardly yet it came not from his heart and he repented of his denyal and professed and preached Christ afterward And if this promise should reach or belong to the Bishop of Rome as Peter's Successour it should only prove that the Bishop of Rome should not fall away utterly from the Faith although sometimes he should deny it outwardly For nothing can reasonably be thought to be obtained for Peter's pretended Successour which was not prayed for and obtained for Peter himselfe As for the former promise Mat. 16.18 Thou art Peter c. Understand it thus that thou Peter shalt lay the first notable foundation of the Christian Church amongst Jewes and Gentiles and this Christian Church thus founded by thee in a more especiall manner shall never be destroyed and we read Act. 2. that Peter did most eminently and successefully first preach to and convert the Jewes to Christianity and we read againe Act. 10. that he did most eminently and successefully first preach the Gospell to and convert the Gentiles to Christianity and accordingly there shall be a Christian Church thus and in this sense begun to be founded by him so long as the world endures nor shall the gates of hell be ever able wholly to root out Christianity but it is not promised that any particular Church whether amongst Jewes or Gentiles and whether that of Antioch or of Rome founded by him under Christ shall never wholly Apostatize from the Faith This we Protestants confesse that the Christian faith or Doctrine was built or founded upon the preaching of the twelve Apostles of Christ whereof Peter was one of the most eminent Pillars or subordinate Founders or Foundations and yet it must be remembred that the rest of the Apostles are called Foundations in Rev. 21. v. 14. And that our Lord Christ himselfe is the chiefe Foundation the Fundamentum fundamentorum and other such foundation can no man lay 1 Corinth 3.11 Q. Was Peter's Successour the Bishop or by any good consequence the Church of Rome the Foundation stone to which all must be joyned and cemented or else they will prove but loose stones or built on the sand or but foolish builders or to use the expression of Mr Baxter must Paul be damned because he was not one of Peter's subjects A. No. 1 Pet. 2.3 4 5 6. If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gratious to whom comming as unto a living stone disallowed indeed of men but chosen of God and precious ye also as lively stones are built up a spirituall house an holy Priesthood to offer up spirituall sacrifice acceptable to God by Jesus Christ wherefore it is contained in the Scripture Behold I lay in Sion a chiefe corner stone elect precious and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded Q. Did Christ make Peter King or Lord and Ruler over the rest of the Apostles A. Lu. 22.24 25 26. And there was also a strife amongst them which of them should be accounted the greatest And he said unto them the Kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them and they that exercise authority upon them are called Benefactors But ye shall not be so but he that is greatest among you let him be as the younger and he that is chief as he that doth serve Joh. 21.21 22. Peter seeing him saith to Jesus Lord and what shall this man doe Jesus saith unto him If I will that he tarry 'till I come what is that to thee Follow thou me Gal. 2.6 9. But of these who seemed to be somewhat whatsoever they were it maketh no matter to me God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me And when James Cephas and John who seemed to be Pillars c. Q. Did not Christ say to Peter feed my Lambes and feed my sheep Joh. 21.15 16. And doth not this give Peter the power and priviledge of Universall Pastor and consequently give the Pope power of Universall Bishop over the whole Church of God A. Mat. 28.16 19 20. Then the eleven Disciples went away into Galilee c. Goe ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you and lo I am with you alway Act. 20.28 Take heed therefore unto your selves to all the flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers to feed the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood 1 Pet. 5.2 3. Feed the flock of God which is among you taking the oversight thereof not by constraint but willingly not for filthy lucre but of a ready mind neither as being Lords over God's heritage but being ensamples to the flock Q. Was the Church of Rome appointed the Head and Mistris of all Churches by Christ And did the Apostle John the last surviving Apostle apply himselfe to 〈◊〉 and write Epistles to her or to the 7 â—â—urches in Asia A. Rev. 1.4 John to the 7 Churches of Asia Grace be unto you c. Q. Should it scare a Protestant from his Religion because the Papists say it is heresy A. Act. 24.14 16. But this I confesse unto thee that after the way which they call heresy so worship I the God of my Fathers And herein doe I exercise my selfe to have alwaies a conscience void of offence towards God and towards men Q. Doth the Church of Rome at this day thwart the practise of the Primitive Church recorded in Scripture A. Yes In their service in an unknown tongue they contradict the Apostle 1 Cor. 14.18 19 27 28. I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all yet in the Church I had rather speak five words with my understanding that by my voice I might teach others also than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue If any man speak in an unknowne tongue let one interpret but if there be no Interpreter let him keep silence in the Church and let him speak to himselfe and to God In the