to order and administer the affaires of Gods House signifying the territory or circuit of a Bishop So Creet may be well called the Diocese of Bishop Titus having under his inspection as t is plaine the Elders of the Cities there W. The Cities were not under Titus his Government he was not a Ruler of the Iland B. He was Ruler of all the Christians I mean onely them through all the Cities and Country Tr. But Titus was an Evangelist Therefore no Bishop B. I deny the Consequence He was an Evangelist while he went about Preaching and Planting the Gospell And he was the Bishop of Creet when he was fixed there by Paul to Ordaine Elders and put in order the things that were wanting H. We find Titus in other places beside Creet and Bishops of those times were not non-residents Therefore he was not Bishop of Creet B. Bishops may lawfully be and were antiently non-resident for some time to wit while they attend the business of Religion abroad and procured the greater good of the Church In which time of their absence their places are supplyed at home by their Deputies Tr. But Sir I pray consider Titus was an extraordinary Governor and therefore no Diocesan Bishop And you dispute fallaciously unless you put in the word Ordinary B. I say he was a Diocesan Bishop or if you will rather an Archbishop For I conceive the Elders of every City to have been Bishops and Overseers of severall Ministers and Congregations therefore he was an ordinary Governour Thus I argue He that ordaines Elders and orders the things in the Churches is an Ordinary But Titus ordaines Elders and orders things in the Churches Therefore Titus is an Ordinary Tr. But I mean he was called to that office in an extraordinary manner B. No neither He was called in the same manner as Timothy and others by Imposition of the Presbytery Therefore He was called in an Ordinary manner Col. A. Timothy was called saith Paul in another place by the laying on of his hands B. Noble Sir you say very true and the places are easily reconciled thus Divers Elders laid hands on Timothy among whom S. Paul probably was chief H. And was Paul too a Diocesan Bishop B. The Apostles common Diocese was the whole world which by agreement they divided among them and S. Paul was especially the Apostle of the Gentiles But in the Apostles I grant some things are extraordinary Tr. Pray make it out cleerely that Titus his case is not extraordinary otherwise you dispute fallaciously B. Truth needs no sophistry Thus I make it out The office that is to continue in the Church and to be succeeded in through following ages is no extraordinary office But this office of Titus is such Therefore c. H. What is it to continue to the worlds end B. Yes to the worlds end For it is Christs Promise I am with you alway even to the end of the world Mat. ult ult What say you to my argument Ordination and Jurisdiction are Offices or Powers needfull to the Church in all Ages This Office of Power or Titus was Ordination and Jurisdiction Therefore this Office of Titus is needfull to the Church in all Ages and therefore no extraordinary Office And my Brethren I would have you to know we are able to shew out of the best Records and Monuments of the Antient Church that there was a succession to the Apostolicall Bishops in these parts of their Office And the Catalogues of succeeding Bishops in severall Apostolicall Sees are yet extant And the Fathers and Councills and Ecclesiasticall Histories come in here with undeniable evidence that Diocesan Bishops are successors of the Apostles in the Government of Churches H. See godly Brethren the subtilty of this man He will not contain himself within the Holy Scripture but tells us of Fathers and Ecclesiasticall Stories and human Authorities B. Who succeeded in the government of Churches after the Apostles we must learn out of the writings of the next Ages And I tell you not only Fathers and Church-story but all other good learning is requisite in a compleat Divine Mark this you bold unlearned new-speakers and expounders of Scripture Mark it and remember it well And for the question of Church-government especially it is impossible to find a better way to understand the Scripture than by the practice of the primitive times of the Christian Church H. Expound Scripture by the practice of the primitive Church Do ye heare him brethren as if Scripture needed the help of the Church We thought we should finde him enclining to Popery B. I detest all Popery charge me not so ignorantly Upon my life I will make it good by the judgment of the most learned and sound Protestants that the practice of the primitive Church is a great light to Scripture But this requires the searching of Books which at your lesure I should be glad to shew you W. Protestants Whom do you mean by Protestants B. I mean those that protest against the Errors Innovations of the Roman Church in latter times and endeavour to reform Religion according to the Scripture and the primitive pattern H. You see he takes in the practice of the Primitive Church again B. I do and must and thus I argue That Government which in the primitive Ages took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government But the Government of Diocesan Bishops took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles Therefore the Government of the Diocesan Bishops is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government Now let me see who will answer me W. Antichrist Antichrist was working betimes B. Whether it be Antichristianism to establish or to over throw the Function of Bishops let all considering men judge by the Premises W. But why do you take in any thing else with Scripture as if that alone were not sufficient for us H. Yea Scripture Scripture we are contented with Scripture B. Give me leave to explain my self to All and I entreat you Harken The Scriptures perfection I do thankfully acknowledge but the things conteined in the Scripture are some of them conteined in it plainly and expresly to be apprehended by every Reader other things are conteined there implicitely virtually and so as there is need of many helps to make our deductions thence And for the Scripture-government I know no better light to shew it than the practice of the Antient Church I argue thus They that have commended to us the very Books of Scripture are fittest to give us the sense of them especially in point of Government But the Antient Church hath commended to us the very books of Scripture Therefore the Antient Church is fittest to give us the sense c. And I pray Mr. W. how will you prove that the Scripture is the Word of God W. I know it by the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in me B. But how will you convince another that will not believe your
use for advice and counsell not for goverment or for the exercise of any jurisdiction B. Then as I conceive your modell is very imperfect and me thinks your Ministers in their severall Congregations look like so many little Popes For the Pope is the Great Independent and will allow of no Appeal from him no more will you H. Pray Mr. B. quiet the People B. I beseech you good people I beseech you attend with silence and patience Tr. Where presently followes Execution there can be no appeal But after the sentence of the Congregation presently followes execution If he hear not the Church let him c. Therefore from the sentence of the Congregation can be no appeal B. Well argued I repeat Where presently c. I answer first to the major or first proposition There may be an appeal after execution of the sentence of the Congregation In your own way may not the wronged person appeal from you to your selves In the Presbyterian you know there lyes an appeal to the Classis but that I take not on me to maintain I know no power to excommunicate but Episcopall Tr. Then it seems by you the Bishop is the Church and the sole judge of the Congregations B. Not so neither Hear my Answer I pray and do not you ignorant fellowes laugh at that you do not understand The Bishop is considered either Sole or alone or as he sits in Cathedra crowned with Presbyters In this later sense I humbly conceive the Bishop is or ought to be Governour of the Congregations within his Diocese And such Bishops we can shew innumerable in the ancient Records of the Catholique Church I am very sorry these Gentlemen are so ill read in good Books of our own English Divines as to deny a truth shining so bright upon them Mr. Tr. have you not seen the learned Thorndike of the primitive Government c Tr. We cleave to the Scripture and call you to the foresaid text Can you shew one place where Church is taken for the Bishop and his Presbyters B. What if I cannot The Authority of the antient Fathers is sufficient for the present to commend my interpretation to such as reverence Antiquity But because I would gladly please you I will offer another sense of the words in question which will come neer to you but is not fully yours That is after the first admonition by one and the second before two or three it is the mind of Christ that a greater number should be made acquainted with the business tell it to the Many for the shaming of the offendor as the Apostle somewhere speaks the words may the more probably be taken in this sense because as yet the Disciples were not setled under a Church-government and so there remaining no more to be done after this shaming of the offendor before a good number of Fellow-Christians i. e. the Church he was to be henceforth till his amendment accounted as a heathen and might be prosecuted for any offence before the heathen Tribunalls Which prosecution was not lawfull against those that would hear the Church See 1 Cor. 6. But this will do you no pleasure unless that which followes in the next verse belong unto the Congregation too but that cannot be if Christ spake the words to his Apostles and gave the Keys and Power of Binding and Loosing to them and their successors as I believe he did Consider of it See the learned Dr. Hammond of binding and loosing To. Give me leave to add somewhat here in confirmation of what was last said Scripture you know gives light to Scripture Christ elswhere saith to Peter that he would give the Keys to him Matth. 16. 19. And John 20. 21 21 23. he speaketh to his Disciples and thus enstateth them in that power Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you as my Father hath sent me even so send I you And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them Receive yee the holy Ghost whosoever sins yee remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins ye retain they are retained these are the solemn words of Ordination W. The words are spoken to Peter and to the Disciples as they were Christian professors and so they do belong to our people not as they were appointed by Christ to be Governours of his Church To. The words signify a power committed to them which they used as Governours 't is plain and which they left to the Bishops their Successours Tr. The Apostles had no successors being gifted with a miraculous power B. The Apostles are to be considered in two respects either as planters of the Churches and to that purpose endued with a miraculous power to make way for and to give confirmation to the Gospel or else as Governours of the Churches invested with the ordinary lasting power of ordaining Elders of binding and loosing and of setting things in order herein who were their Successors you may see if you will inform your selves in the book of binding and loosing and in the Latin dissertations against Blondellus Pray take it not ill that we often assert this it is of such concernence that with this truth the Ministers of England must either stand or fall We speak not for Bishops to be Lords of Lands but Fathers of the Church You must all mark that Tr. The difference 'twixt us appears plainly you are for Bishops which you call the Primitive Apostolical Bishops and in them you place the power which Christ hath left to his Church We are for the Bodies of Congregations which we say are under no superiors neither Bishops nor Presbyters but absolute and independent in respect of man and immediatly under Jesus Christ Col. A. Bishops and Presbyters are all one in the New Testament namely Acts 20. 17. Paul sent to Ephesus and called the Elders of the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and v. 28. the holy Ghost hath made you overseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore Presbyters and Bishops are all one P. Noble Sir I answer Bishops in the new Testament are also called Presbyters but they are more than those we now call Presbyters who are to be ordained and governed by the Bishops Any Presbyter may be called Bishop or Overseer of his own Parish but those we eminently stile Bishops now who are Bishops or Overseers and Rulers of those Parish Bishops or Presbyters The Presbyters St. Paul sent for from Ephesus were properly Bishops Tr. No Hear my Argument The Church of Ephesus was but one Congregation I prove it out of Eph. 2. the two last verses In whom Jesus Christ all the building fitly framed together c. A building fitly framed together is but one Congregation But the Church of Ephesus was a building fitly framed together Therefore c. B. To the Major Not only one single Congregation but many united under one Bishop may be so called And that Ephesus was not a single Independent Congregation but a
the Magistrate So did mady zealous Preachers contend against sports on the Lords day tolerated once and so do some still contend against Usury tolerated yet And for Forms and Discipline the Old way you know was preached down when the Laws and Magistrates did endeavour to uphold it These preachers I cannot defend but would say something for them if it had been a Form tolerated only and not establisht For we look upon a Form tolerated as a thing not approved by the State but winked at for a time and dispenst with to content a party or side A Form tolerated is at most but for triall and so long as it is put to the triall it may be contended against not by force but by argument and disswasion Nor is this to oppose the State or cross their Intention for til they declare their Mind it is presumption in a private man to intrude into their Counsells And therefore while things are under Consultation as now it cannot be justly called opposition of the Magistrate if one dispute in a familiar letter against that which they tolerate Nay the liberty of familiar letters you know is of greater extent For my part there is none gives more to the Magistrate in matters of Religion that I do none is more ready to submit to laws in all things not cleerly contrary to the Highest Law And for the present Toleration although I think I may safely take the liberty is not this also a part of the Toleration to discourse of such matters either by letter or otherwise yet I will obey your Advice as I said and I cannot chuse but commend your Moderation in not judging any man scandalous for not being of your Form Though out of Form I am really Sir your Servant in Christ Another to the same not long aster GOod Sir Having not the leasure at present to attend you at Stow I send my letter to to salute you and your good company I have considered upon your Argument yesterday taking advantage from the rubric in our Service-Book That Catechizing and Confirmation must go before the Sacrament of of the Lords Supper Therefore your New Covenant The Antecedent is in the rubric after the Form of Confirmation And I cannot defend the former neglect of Confirmation in the Bishop nor any present neglect of Catechizing by any Minister But seeing there is now none of that Confirmation to be had a great want in the Church I think what if the Minister do his part in instructing people in the Catechism and the people not only make Confession of Faith but profess Repentance Charity Obedience nor hath the Minister any assurance no nor just ground of suspicion that they are not sincere shall he not admit them to the Lords Table I would not presume to condemn all the pious and learned Ministers of the Church of England that have administred the Sacrament upon such tearms When we cannot have all done we would we must be content with what can be done as the case standeth Well Confirmation I grant is commanded as convenient and profitable not so necessary but that in case it be wanting the Sacrament may be administred Now to the sequel How your Covenant can serve in place of Confirmation I do not yet understand It consisteth only of the Confession resolution and promise of the Covenanters whereas Confirmation or laying on of hands is an act of the Bishop to certify the person confirmed of Gods favour and gracious goodness towards him and it is joyned with prayer and benediction wherwith the party is thought to be strengthned and encreas'd in grace Your Covenant I grant is somewhat like the Answer in our Catechism where the Catechized undertaketh the Baptismall vow made in his name and promiseth by Gods help to perform it And surely that is done by all that come with us to the Lords Table And approaching to it in the quality of such as repent them truly of all their sins are in charity with their neighbours and intend to lead a new life they do renew their Covenant and in taking the Sacrament have the seal thereof as t is very requisite nor do I yet see how Ministers can refuse to give it Sir shall I be bold in secret to ask you what great deliverance is the ground of your Covenant I doubt of it because upon the late deliverance from the Scotish Invasion all hopes were cut off of reforming this Church according to the pattern of Scotland which unless I am deceived was one end of the Scotish Covenant receiv'd in England I deny not great Deliverances but I take advantage from the Scots Covenant and say that the Friends thereof instead of Deliverance have had a totall overthrow Give me a little light in this and reconcile the Covenants in the religious part of them for I meddle not with temporals That which you said as I take it of peoples having excommunicated themselves by a defection from the Gospel in life and manners which is you say in effect all one as to fall from the Faith must be explaned by you For Apostacy from the Faith and profession of Christ cuts a member off from the Church and Corruption in manners doth but make a diseased member and such a one must be cured gently I remember a Covenant somewhere in Mr. Rogers his â— Treatises a Book Dedicated to King James I would gladly know whether such a one as that might not serve your turn Your Servant C. B. Reader I am tempted by the mention of the Covenant in the former Letter here to insert what seems to have been written about this time Queries of a Christian Brother which he desires may be answered before he enter into the Covenant held forth at Winchoomb 1. WHether it be lawful for any number of people thus to combine without direction of Authority which is wont to be jealous of Meetings lest under pretence of piety somewhat else be intended 2. Whether all that is moral in this Covenant be not conteined in the Prayer of all Communicants the old way to live a godly righteous and sober life and in the profession to repent of former sins and lead a new life 3. Whether all that are Catechized the old way do not take on them as good a Covenant when they answer Yes verily and by Gods help so I will c. 4. What is meant by the corrupt and formal way of worship whereof they are ashamed If the worship established in the Church of England is it not a false and scandalous expression 5. What is meant by all other Godly disciplin if the use of the Keys where have these Covenanters any Commission 6. Whether they can be said to keep the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace that innovate in the Church and divide without cause Queries upon the Covenant at Winchcomb 1652. 1. VVHether it were not much better and more needful for the People to repent their departing from the Vow of
you All to take notice that our Church is free from that superstition or whatever it be called wherewith the Church of Rome is justly charged The Saints are in our Prayers for imitation not for adoration Our Houses therefore being truly built at first for God's Service and now used by us for the right end the setting apart of such places for divine Worship makes them relatively holy and gives God a peculiar Title to them and he owns them for his My House shall be called a House of prayer W. Your own House may be as well used so and called Gods House and a holy place B. No Though God may be served in every place and I serve him dayly in my own house yet the publick place separated for his service I say becomes his by a peculiar right All the world is his but our Churches are his to a singular and holy purpose by a singular dedication As he hath his Day so also a place for his Worship both Holy Keep ye my Sabbath and reverence my Sanctuary For your satisfaction see Mr. Mede's Divine Treatise upon Hallowed be thy name and his letter to D. Twiss Now let us Hoc agere and come to the business of the day H. To the Question of the day my first Argument is this That it is not lawfull to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches thus I prove If you have not a true calling in your Church of England then it is not lawfull for you to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches But you have not a true Calling in your Church of England Therefore it is not lawfull for you to minister the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches B. I repeat If we have not c. I deny your minor and affirm we have a true calling in our Church of England H. If in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices then your calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling but in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices Therefore your Calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling B. I deny your minor and affirme we are not engaged to any superstitious and unlawfull practices is our Calling by the Bishops H. The keeping of Holy-dayes I do not mean Holy-dayes upon occasion as our Thanksgiving dayes but your set holy-dayes the keeping of your holy-dayes is an unlawfull practice But in your Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to the keeping of Holy-dayes Therefore in the Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to unlawfull practices B. I deny your major and affirm that the keeping of our holy-dayes is not an unlawfull practice H. A practice against Gods command is an unlawfull practice But your practice is against Gods command Therfore your practice is an unlawfull practice B. Not against God's command how prove you that H. My text is in 20. Exod. where you shall find it a part of the fourth Commandement Six dayes shalt thou labour and do all that thou hast to do Therefore it is against Gods command to keep any one of the six dayes holy B. I answer two wayes 1. By retortion 2. By interpretation 1. By retortion I say your Argument rebounds upon your self and condemnes your own practice and that Text in your sense that we are commanded to labour six dayes takes away as well occasionall holy-dayes as set and recurrent For our Thanksgiving dayes are not dayes of labour 2. By interpretation the words you urge are not preceptive but permissive God requires one day in seven and allowes us six not denying us the liberty if we be so devout as to consecrate some part of them also to his publick Service The Jewes had among their holy-dayes the feast of Dedication of human Institution which yet we read that Christ himself observed H. Worship not instituted by God is unlawfull Worship But your Holy-dayes are a Worship not instituted by God but by human authority therefore your holy-dayes are unlawfull Worship B. I answer to the minor and say that our holy-dayes are not the Worship it self but a circumstance of the Worship and circumstances of Gods Worship may be ordained lawfully by men H. Well your calling by the Bishops however is not lawfull and thus I prove it If the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops then your calling by the Bishops is not lawfull But the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops Therefore c. B. I deny your minor and affirme the Scripture does allow Diocesan Bishops H. There is not so much as the name of a Diocesan Bishop in all the Scripture B. But there is more than the Name there is the Thing there is the Office The word Trinity is not in the Scripture yet we Believe the Trinity H. Where doth the Scripture shew us any such office bring forth your proofe of it B. 'T is my part to answer your proofs Now you put on the Respondent the part of an Opponent Let them that have been bred in the Schools judge whether you do like a fair Disputant H. Our dispute is not an University Dispute but for the clearing of the truth to some Godly People B. Do you think the University Disputations which are the best in the world are not for the clearing of the Truth But what saith Mr. Tr. shall I propose my Argument to prove Diocesan Bishops by the Scripture Tr. You have liberty to propose your Argument and shew in what part of Scripture you can find the Office of any Diocesan Bishop B. I allege principally the Epistles of S. Paul to Timothy and Titus and particularly Tit. 1. 5. For this cause left I thee in Creet that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting and ordaine Elders in every City as I have appointed thee Out of which Text I will prove that Titus was a Bishop and Creet his Diocese and therefore here we have found the Diocesian Bishop But before I proceed let me aske you Gentlemen do you not put me upon this to ensnare me Do you mean no harm to me Tr. No I assure you wherefore in Gods Name speak freely B. I humbly thank you but first let me openly declare before all this Assembly that I have no mind to oppose any act of State nor will I meddle at all with the Lands and Lordships of Bishops only I plead for the Order and Function of Bishops I plead for the primitive Apostolicall Bishop and no other And that this Text is for me thus I prove He that hath a power to ordaine Elders and set things in order in the Church is a Bishop But Titus hath a power to ordaine Elders and to set things in order in a Church Therefore Titus is a Bishop H. But you must prove him to be a Diocesan Bishop B. So I do Creet was his Diocese the whole Iland was committed to his Goverment Diocese my friends is a Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
with cursing and swearing All the rest forsook him and fled Their strength was little and their knowledge was less witness the Disciples going to Emaus fools and slow of heart and the question proposed about the Kingdom Acts 1. What is the lowest measure of grace I will not determine Where I see any hopes or weak beginnings of Christianity I embrace and cherish them In the School of Christ there be many little ones that must be gently used and there be some great ones that must not be offended but upon great reasons Why should I not think better of others than my self when the B. Apostle calls himself the chiefest of sinners and less than the least of Saints He that hath beams to cast out of his own eve must not be picking motes out of his Brothers eye 'T is true the Brother must be admonished especially by the Minister but this must be done discreetly and orderly and with meekness of spirit He that obeys one or a few scapes the censure of the Many and may not be reckoned as an alien None is so but he that proves obstinate after the methods of Counsel and Reproof And verily Mr. H. it had been a good method for you to have admonisht me and the rest of the Congregation whom you are offended with and to have received our Answer before you condemn'd us in your Pulpit And that Answer will serve now In what we have offended God we ask his pardon In what we have offended you we will give you satisfaction Thus doing we shall not be excluded from Communion by any just sentence H. You have some that might be named that both before and after the Communion have shewed themselves no sober men B. That may be and I shall desire to be informed of them that I may labour to reform them or exclude them if they be proved open and notorious evill livers And I do often commend and endeavour to bring into better practice the Duty of fraternall Admonition and Correption which is now the more necessary because we want publick Discipline see D. Hammond of Fraternall Admonition Having declared my self thus I must conclude your Argument against my Communicants till you prove your Accusation better to be only an Argument of your own uncharitableness H. I cannot yet allow of your Call to Minister For Ministers truly called are appointed and ordained by the Godly people But you are not so appointed Therefore B. You will I hope hereafter allow me equall liberty to oppose your Orders I have mine from a Bishop assisted by his Presbyters according to Apostolicall Institution and the constant practice of the Church The People cannot confer on us our power They may approve and assent to our Calling and give testimony of our good conversation and receive us when we are sent unto them I am owned as a Rector of the People to whom I Minister W. We are servants of Gods people Paul I am sure saith so of himself B. He saith so and so doe I their servant for Jesus sake Let them acknowledge us their spirituall Rulers and Fathers in Christ and we will in all humble condescension be their Servants for Jesus sake Jesus himself our Lord and Master stiles himself a Minister or Servant of his Servants and he hath said He that will be greatest among you let him be Servant of all 'T is easy to distinguish between a servant by voluntary condescension and a servant by necessary subjection Tr. You said before that in case of prophaning the holy things you would confess a Minister deserves suspension Who shall suspend him but the Congregation What other power is there B. I confessed the prophaner of Holy things to deserve great punishment but after due Admonition and upon his obstinacy not else Yet I cannot see how the people have any Authority to sentence him Tr. Who would you have to do it Who B. To speak freely I would submit my self to my Ordinary the Apostolicall Bishop or if you like the Latin word better the President or Superintendent for whom I have spoken before And I am ready to joyn with you in a Petition that we may have an Apostolicall Bishop set over us as it was in practice of the antient Church H. You stand too much upon the practice of the Antient Church come to the Scripture B. I am sorry you value the practice of the antient Church so little Pray where is your maine strength in Scripture for your Independent or Congregationall Churches H. Let us read the famous Text Mat 18 15 16 17 18 19. 20. Out of which Text I frame this Argument If here be meant by the Church a Congregation from which lyes no Appeale then is the Independent Church founded upon this Text But here is meant a Congregation c. What else will you conceive by the Church B. I am very inclinable to Saint Chrysostome's interpretation who by the Church understandands the Elders and Rulers of the Church H. The word Church is no where so taken in all the Scripture and therefore it cannot be so taken here shew us any place B. It doth not follow for some word may possibly signify that in one place which it signifies no where else and again there may be other places though I cannot readily shew them I will consider of it H. No I doe assure you t is never so used and therefore I hope you will yeeld to the Word that we may go on with one consent in the work of God B. God grant it if it be the Work of God but you have not cleered it yet I cannot yield to your sense for this Reason That sense of Scripture concerning Church-government which was never received by the Doctors of the Antient Church is not the true sense of Scripture But your sense of the place was never received c. H. Still still he declines Scripture and would lead us to human Ordinances B. As for human Ordinances I can embrace them so far as they are not opposite to Scripture but now we are upon the Interpretation of Scripture I must profess I have been ever bred in the Church that requires all her Ministers to receive the Scripture as interpreted by the Antient Fathers and to propose nothing to the people contrary to what was derived out of the Scripture by them I am not ashamed of my Mother the Church of England nor by Gods grace ever shall I. And I doe heartily warn all that hear me to take heed as they tender their Soules of departing rashly from the Communion of of the said Church W. I thought where we should have you B. You have me where I have ever been and where I mean to abide till I am convinced I am not unwilling to learn of any one And pray Mr. W. tell me whether you hold not a Synod of chosen men gathered out of your Churches to have authority over them all W. No authority at all such a Synod may be of
Divinity I remember you read Dr. Prideaux Lectures De Absoluto Decreto c. when you were but a Fresh-man He is now admonished to study his Antecessor at Tewksbury Mr. Geeres Book against Separation entituled Vindiciae Ecclesiae Anglicanae Another of the Opponents Mr. Tr. asked the Respondent whether he did not Preach before he was Ordained Yes said he once or twice in this Church above twenty years since being Mr of Arts and after that Tryall of my self I entred into Orders Your men do not so See Grotius of Authority pag. 181. Mr. W. At the mention of Christmas was startled and cried Popery Mr. B. Answered there is no hurt in the Word and for the Thing the keeping of that and other Christian Festivalls we commend the sober Christian to the Resolution of the sixt Quaere by the eminent Dr. Hammond Where the Respondent distinguisheth of Bishops as Lords as Fathers he would not have the Reader suspect him as if he envied any temporall Honour or Riches to the Fathers of the Church For who knew how to abound so well as They The good works of the Bishops of England would make a fair volume which perhaps some body will collect Our Mother Oxford especially cannot forget how magnificent Founders and Benefactors she hath had of this sacred Order One of the Opponents about admission of people to the Sacrament urged that proverbiall speech of Christ Matth. 7. 16. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles No said the Respondent while they continue such but on their Conversion they may For the true sense of that place hear the Divine Paraphrast By their fruits ye shall know them Ye shall certainly know them and discern them if you take notice of and weigh the doctrins which when they have gotten some Authority with you they will presently endeavour to infuse into you They that make no other use of their being counted Prophets but to infuse higher degrees of all kind of piety and charity into you ye may resolve they are sent from God For the Devill would never help men to credit and reputation in the world who should make use of it only to the advancement of piety But if their designs be to infuse into their followers any seeds of impiety injustice uncleanness uncharitableness sedition rebellion c. Let their pretences and behaviour be never so fair be sure they are false Prophets When it was said by the Respondent that Christ died for all men one Cr. a disciple of Mr. H. was heard to say Then it seems Christ dyed for the Devills and all nor considering that Divine Text to the Hebrews 2. 16. For verily he took not on him the nature of Angels but he took on him the seed of Abraham Where the Paraphrast judiciously as his manner is amending the Translation saith For t is not said any where that he catches hold of Angels as they are falling or running or carried captive from him to save or rescue them from ruine or to bring them out of captivity but only to men doth he this favour peculiarly To his Congregation at Sudeley-Castle ANd now Beloved I end with a Request to you in Saint Peter's words Giving all diligence adde to your Faith Vertue and to your Vertue Knowledge and to Knowledge Temperance and to Temperance Patience and to Patience Godliness and to Godliness Brotherly-kindness and to Brotherly-kindness Charity For if these things be in you abound the greatest objection of our Opponents will be then fully answered if it be not yet Let no man suffer sin upon his Brother but let us exhort and admonish one another lovingly and faithfully and let the most knowing and Zealous among you assist the Minister in the discharge of his duty that no open and notorious liver may presume to come with us to the Holy Table Let us pray for a setled Publick Discipline but in the mean let us settle our selves and keep as good order as we can Let us shew the sincerity of our Religion by our mutuall Love and by our Meekness and Charity to our Enemyes and Calumniators Let us evidence our having the Spirit not by bold intrusion into offices not committed to us but by bringing forth the fruits of the Spirit Love Joy Peace Long-suffering and the rest Finally let us not be weary of Welldoing but go on in every good Work with courage and alacrity with our eyes fixed upon Heaven so shall the mouth of the Adversary be stopped and the Lord shall open our lips and our mouth shall shew forth his praise Amen Your Servant for Christs sake C. B. Scripsi 23. Novem. die St. Clementis natali meo 45. An. Ch. 1653. N. N. To the Reader CHristian Reader Know that after the Disputation ended between two and three in the Afternoon Mr. B. and Mr. To. retired to their Inn whither the Baylifs and Churchwardens and some other honest men of the Town came to them and gave them thanks The next morning was deliver'd to a Servant of the Parish a Paper to be presented to Mr. H. and published declaring that some Neighbouring Ministers would be ready by Gods help on the Monday following to make good in the same place against Mr. H. and his brethren this necessary Truth which they deny That Parish-Churches of England are the true Churches of Jesus Christ They came but could not prevail with Mr. H. to come forth to Answer Wherefore after some little conference with him at his own house with the Account whereof I shall not now detein you Mr. B. departed and Preacht at Sudeley concluding with an exhortation to Peace and Unity and with an earnest Request to the Congregation that they would give no offence neither by word nor deed to the other party When the Account of the former Dispute was come down Mr. B. sent two Copies one to Mr. H. another to Mr. W. enclosed in these Letters which being come unto my hand I think fit not to conceal and shall adde unto them some other since to the end you may the better understand the Temper of the Author and in what condition he is at this present December 17. 1653. Master Helm HAd you hearkned unto me and embraced my motion for a private conference both you and I had saved some trouble but since the matter is come thus far I intreat you to peruse the account with judgement and let me receive from you any thing that may serve for the perfecting of it I have not wronged you nor do I remember any greater provocation in my former Letters but that I once said Your simple Disciples which word I have cause to retract finding by experience that they have much more of the Serpent than of the Dove From them I suppose rather than from your self is a tempest a raising against me in the Higher Region The opinion I have had of your Moderation and Ingenuity yea and some degree of friendship with you formerly enclines me
etiam in scripturarum interpretationibus praesertim ubi plerique omnes consentiunt deflectere non audere toti Ecclesiae Christi ingenuè fateor Et postea Hoc ego ingenuè denuò profiteor talem esse meam conscientiam ut à veterum patrum sive dogmatibus sive scripturarum interpretationibus non facile nisi vel manifestis sacrarum literarum testimoniis vel necessariis consequentiis apertisque demonstrationibus convictus atque coactus discedere queam Sic exim acquiescit mea conscientia in hac ment is quiete cupio etiam mori Idem ad Cap. 25. QUid quòd in Ecclesiis etiam Protestantium non desunt reipsa Episcopi Archiepiscopi quos mutatis bonis Graecis nominibus in malè Latina vocant superintendentes generales superintendentes Sed ubi etiam neque illa vetera bona Graeca neque haec nova malè Latina nomina obtinent ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarii penes quos fere tota est autoritas De nominibus ergo fuerit controversia verùm cum de rebus convenit quid de nominibus altercamur Idem in fine PRecor omnes Christianos per Dominum Jesum ut positis vanis privatorum hominum somniis positis etiam propriis carnis affectibus odiis inimicitiis amplexi verò certum ac salutarem veteris Ecclesiae doctrinam Christianamque dilectionem coeamus omnes in unam fidem sanctamque amicitiam sicut nobis quoque omnibus unus est Deus unus Mediator unum Baptisma una spes vocationis nostrae ad gloriam nominis Dei Ecclesiae aedificationem salutemque animorum nostrorum Citius enim quam putamus sistemur ante tribunal Christi ut referat unusquisque prout se gessit in corpore in hac vita quando post hanc vitam nulla spes veniae nullus resipiscentiae locus est Hooker in his Preface Sect. 4. A Very strange thing sure it were that such a Discipline as ye speak of should be taught by Christ and his Apostles in the word of God and no Church ever have found it out nor received it till this present time contrariwise the Government against which ye bend your selves be observed every where throughout all generations and ages of the Christian world no Church ever perceiving the word of God to be against it We require you to find out but one Church upon the face of the whole earth that hath been ordered by your Discipline or hath not been orderd by ours that is to say by Episcopal regiment sithence the time that the blessed Apostles were here conversant The same Sect. 6. AS for the Orders which are established sith equity and reason the Law of Nature God and man do all favour that which is in being till orderly judgement of decision be given against it it is but justice to exact of you and perverseness in you it should be to deny thereunto your willing obedience Not that I judge it a thing allowable for men to observe those Laws which in their hearts they are stedfastly perswaded to be against the Law of God but your perswasion in this case ye are all bound for the time to suspend and in otherwise doing ye offend against God by troubling his Church without any just or necessary cause The same Sect. 8. AGain it may justly be feared whether our English Nobility when the matter came in tryal would contentedly suffer themselves to be alwaies at the call and to stand to the sentence of a number of mean persons assisted with the presence of their poor teacher a man as sometimes it hapneth though better able to speak yet little or no whit apter to judge than the rest From whom be their dealings never so absurd unless it be by way of complaint to a Synod no appeal may be made unto any one of higher power in as much as the order of your Discipline admitteth no standing inequality of Courts no Spiritual Judge to have any ordinary Superior on earth but as many Supremacies as there are Parishes and several Congregations Neither is it altogether without cause that so many do fear the overthrow of all learning as a threatned sequel of this your intended Discipline For if the worlds preservation depend upon the multitude of the wise and of that sort the number hereafter be not likely to wax over great when that wherewith the Son of Syrach professeth himself at the heart grieved men of understanding are already so little set by how should their minds whom the love of so precious a Jewel filleth with secret jealousy even in regard of the least things which may any way hinder the flourishing estate thereof choose but misdoubt lest this Discipline which alwaies you match with Divine Doctrine as her natural and true Sister be found unto all kinds of knowledge a Stepmother seeing that the greatest worldly hopes which are proposed unto the chiefest kind of learning yee seek utterly to extirpate as weeds and have grounded your platform on such Propositions as do after a sort undermine those most renowned habitations where through the goodness of Almighty God all commendable Arts and Sciences are with exceeding great industry hitherto and so may they for ever continue studied proceeded in and profest To charge you as purposely bent to the overthrow of that wherein many of you have attained no small perfection were injurious Only therefore I wish that your selves did well consider how opposite certain your positions are c. Master Edward Leigh a dilligent Collector in his Body of Divinity P. 454 c. THe Socinians say Cum adhuc nova c. The Apostles had a call when the Gospel was newly published there needs not a Ministry now that the Gospel is generally taught and it is promised we shall be all taught of God If we should look for a Ministry where shall we find it Our Ministets were ordained by Bishops they by the Pope Therefore their Calling is Anti-Christian But That there is such an Institution of Christ and this to continue till the worlds end may be thus proved First there are some to whom the word of reconciliation is committed and not to others 1 Cor. 5. 18. Rom. 10. 15. there is a peculiar mission Men cannot Preach as the Embassadors of Christ unless sent Jo. 20. 21. Gal. 1. 1. Secondly because a special authority is committed to such by vertue of their office they have the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Is 22. 22. Mat. 16. 19. The Brownists say our Ministers are not rightly called into their offices because we received it from Rome Ans Not every thing ordained by Anti-Christ is forthwith to me rejected but only that which he doth qua Antichristus as he is Antichrist But Bishops were before ever Antichrist appeared in the world Brown the father of the Brownists was the first of note that did separate himself from the Church of England and said that we had no Church he meant a true Church But after he
of England The interpretation whereof is to my understanding this that the Calamities under which now we suffer have made us cease to be a Church But Blessed be God the Church of England is not invisible It is still preserved in Bishops and Presbyters rightly Ordained and multitudes rightly Baptized none of which have fallen off from their profession And the only thing imaginable to be objected in this point being this that the Schism hath so far been extended by the force that many if not most Churches parochial are filled by those who have set up a new or a no-form of worship and so that many men cannot any otherwise than in private Families serve God after the Church-way that sure will be of little weight when the Romanists are remembred to be the objectors who cannot but know that this is the only way that they have had of serving God in this kingdom these many years and that the night meetings of the Primitive Christians in Dens and Caves are as pettinent to the justifying of our condition as they can be of any and when 't is certain that the forsaking of the Assemblies Heb. 10. 25. is not our wilful fault v. 26. but only our unhappy lot who are forced either not to frequent the Assemblies or else to encourage and incur the scandal of seeming to approve the practices of those that have departed from the Church See the eminent Doctor in his new Book of Schism last Chapter Master Medes answer to Doctor Twiss touching Holiness of Times and Places p. 660. SIR I Say still there is eadem ratio Loci Tempor is sacri quà talis to wit for the sanctification or discrimination due to them both and the formal reason for which it is due For the formal reason why a thing is to be sanctified or sanctè habendum is because it is sanctum or sacrum and whatsoever is appropriate to God and his service is such be it by Gods own immediate ordination or humane devotion it is all one in this point so the consecration be supposed lawful and agreeable to the divine will For this sanctification depends neither upon the difference of the institution whether divine or humane nor the diversity of natural and artificial Being but upon the formalis ratio of the object because it is sacrum Moreover I believe the one was intended in the fourth Commandement as well as the other not only from that general rule whereby the Decalogue is to be interpreted but because the Lord himself hath conjoined them Lev. 19. 30. Keep my Sabhaths and reverence my Sanctuary Why may not I say Those whom God hath joined together let no man put asunder And it may be the sanctification of the Lords Day would be urged with more advantage upon the ground I have intimated than upon that other which is so much controverted But it is Partiality that undoes all Of Christian Prudence CHristian prudence forbids us to provoke a danger and they were fond persons that run to persecution and when the Proconsul sate on the life and death and made strict inquisition after Christians went and offer'd themselves to die and he was a fool that being in Portugal run to the Priest as he elevated the host and overthrew the mysteries and openly defyed the rites of that Religion God when he sends a persecution will pick out such persons whom he will have to dy whom he wil consign to banishment whom to poverty In the mean time let us do our duty when we can walking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Apostles phrase is not prevaricating in the least tittle and then if we can be safe with the arts of civil innocent in-offensive compliance let us bless God for his permissions made to us and his assistances in the using them But if either we turn our zeal into the ambition of death and the follies of an unnecessary beggary or on the other side turn our prudence into craft and covetousness to the first I say that God hath no pleasure in fools to the later If you gain the whole world and lose your own Soul your loss is infinite and intolerable Doctor Jer. Taylor Serm. 20. Sum. Of Liturgy and the use of Gifts in Prayer THough I am not against a Grave modest discreet and humble use of Ministers gifts even in publick the better to fit and excite their own and the Peoples affections to the present occasions Yet I know no necessity why private and single abilities should quite justle out and deprive the Church of the joint abilities and concurrent gifts and graces enabling them to compose with serious deliberation and concurrent advice such Forms of Prayers as may best fit the Churches common wants inform the hearers understanding and stir up that fiduciary and fervent application of their Spirits wherein consists the very Life and Soul of Prayer and that so much pretended Spirit of Prayer than any ptivate man by his solitary abilities can be presumed to have which what they are many times even there where they make a great noise and shew the affectations emptiness impertinency rudeness confusions flatness levity obscurity vain and ridiculous repetitions the senseless and oft-times blasphemous expressions all these burthened with a most tedious and intolerable length do sufficiently convince all men but those who glory in that pharasaick way 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 16. Of Moderate Episcopacy THe Abuses of Episcopacy deserve to be extirpated as much as the use retained for I think it far better to hold to Primitive and uniform Antiquity than to comply with divided Novelty A right Episcopacy would at once satisfy all just desires and interests of good Bishops humble Presbyters and sober people so as Church affairs should be managed neither with tyranny parity nor popularity neither Bishops ejected nor Presbyters despised nor people oppressed ibid. 17. Of the Primitive Church and Fathers IF the practice of the Primitive Church and the universal consent of the Fathers be not a convincing Argument when the Interpretation of Scripture is doubtful I know nothing for if this be not then of necessity the Interpretation of private Spirits must be admitted the which contradicts S. Peter 2 Pet. 1. 20. is the Mother of all sects and will if not prevented bring these Kingdoms into confusion And to say that an Argument is ill because the Papists use it or that such a thing is good because it is the custome of some of the reformed Churches cannot weigh with me untill you prove these to be infallible or that to maintain no Truth And how Diotrephes ambition who directly opposed the Apostle S. John can be an Argument against Episcopacy I do not understand His Majesties second paper to H. Of the same MY Conclusion is that albeit I never esteemed any Authority equall to the Scriptures yet I do think the unanimous consent of the Fathers and the Universall practice of the Primitive Church to be the best
actionem Haec etiamsi subtilius disputari possunt tamen ad regendas mentes hoe modo propositâ— accommodata videntur Accusemus ipsi nostram voluntatem cum labimur non quaeramus in Dei consilio causam contra eam nos erigamus sciamus Deum velle opitulari adesse luctantibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inquit Basilius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Excitetur ergo cura in nobis laudetur Dei immensa bonit as quum promisit auxilium praestat Haec non scribo ut tibi tradam quasi dictata homini eruditissimo ac peritissimo exercitiorum pietatis Et quidem scio haec cum tuis congruere sed sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad usum accommodata Haec Bonnae scripsi apud D. Bucerum cum eo accersitus est ut Ecclesias in Diocesi Coloniensi emendaret Haec consilia Deo piis votis commendes Philippus Melancthon Of the power of the Congregation LEt not any man think now that the Apostle communicateth this power with the Congregation of the Church of Corinth when he writeth to them 1 Cor. 5. 4 5. being assembled with his spirit to deliver the incestuous person to Satan For it is plain that the sentence is given by the Apostle vers 3. where he writeth For I verily as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already as though I were present concerning him that hath so done this deed And to cause this proceeding to be the better digested he hath vouched his power in the end of the chapter afore verse 18. Now some are puffed up as though I would not come unto you but I will come unto you shortly if the Lord will and will know not the speech of them that are puffed up but the power What will you shall I come unto you with a rod or with the spirit of meekness Which power otherwhiles he setteth before them in case of their disobedience And therefore it must be acknowledged that he writeth to them to see his sentence published ratified and executed which the Presbyters there had either neglected to do or perhaps were not able to bring the people under the Discipline of Christ's Kingdom which must needs oblige the Apostle to interpose And this without doubt is the reason why the Apostle writeth in these terms 1 Cor. 5. 12. For what have I to do to judge those that are without do not ye judge those that are within speaking to the Church in general though the sentence passed by Bishop and Presbyters because matters were censured in the Congregation and executed by the people And thus the practice of that time giveth a reason without straining why our Lord seemeth to refer these matters to the Congregation when he saith Tell it to the Church because they passed at their Assemblies though under Censure of Bishop and Presbyters And great reason there is why this regard should be had by the Apostle and by the Church afterwards to the People because the Church being a meer spiritual Commonwealth and not indued with temporal strength so much as to execute those sentences which the power of the Keys given by Christ obligeth it to inflict always setting wide that power of working miracles which was in the Apostle upon which some think he reflecteth in some passages of those Epistles requisite it was then the Congregation should be satisfied of the course of those proceedings which must come into execution and effect by their voluntary submission to the will of God and the office of his Ministers And as the matter is now that things of this nature proceed not upon mens private Consciences and Judgments in particulars but upon general rules of Common right requisite it is that the Common-wealth have satisfaction of those Laws according to which the Church now must proceed in their censures it being acknowledged that they cannot proceed with effect but by vertue of those Laws that are put in force by the secular Arm. Mr. Thorndike of Prim. Government p. 144. Reader Take for a Conclusion of all at this time that too pertinent Relation which you may read more at large in Mr. Hookers preface collected out of Guy de bres Of the Errour of the Anabaptists THey so much affected to cross the ordinary custome in every thing that when other mens use was to put on better attire they would be sure to shew themselves openly abroad in worse the ordinary names of the days in the week they thought it a kind of prophaness to use and therefore accustomed themselves to make no other distinction than by numbers The first second third day-They boldly avouched that themselves only had the truth and that since the Apostles lived the same was never before in all points sincerely taught Other disputation against their opinions than only by allegation of Scripture they would not hear besides it they thought no other writings in the world should be studyed in so much as one of their great Prophets exhorting them to cast away all respects unto human writings so far to his motion they condescended that as many as had any Books save the Holy Bible in their custody they brought and set them publickly on fire When they and their Bibles were alone together what strange phantasticall opinion soever at any time enterd into their heads their use was to think the Spirit taught it them Their own Ministers they highly magnified as men whose vocation was from God the rest their manner was to term disdainfully Scribes and Pharisees to account their calling an human creature and to detein the people as much as might be from heâ—ring thâ—m The custome of using God-fathers and God-mothers at Christnings they scorned Baptizing of Infants although confest by themselves to have been continued ever sithence the Apostles own times yet they altogether condemned The Eucharist they received pretending our Lord and Saviours example after Supper and for avoiding all those impieties which have been grounded upon the mysticall words of Christ This is my Body This is my Blood they thought it not safe to mention either body or blood in that Sacrament but rather to abrogate both and to use no words but these Take eate declare the death of our Lord Drink shew forth our Lords Death In rites and ceremonies their profession was hatred of all conformity with the Church of Rome for which cause they would rather endure any torment than observe the solemn Festivals which others did in as much as Antichrist they said was the first inventor of them The pretended end of their civil reformation was that Christ might have dominion over all that all Crowns and Scepters might be thrown down at his feet that no other might reign over Christian men but He no regiment to keep them in awe but his disciplin amongst them no sword at all to be carried besides his the sword of spirituall excommunication They laboured to bring in Community of goods because Christ by his
Metropolitical Church you may learn of the most Reverend Primate Dr. Usher a man I think of great Authority among you also as among all Scholars most justly I refer you to his Geographical Tract of the Asian Diocese Tr. Return to the Text Mat. 18. v. 19. I shall prove it undeniably that a single Church hath an independent power But first will you grant me that two or three may be taken for a small Congregation B. Yes I desire to grant you all I can without injury to the Truth Tr. Then thus I argue Where is the Duty and the Blessing there is the Power But in a small Congregation where two or three c. is both the duty and the Blessing Therefore there is also the Power namely of Excommunication B. Where is the duty c. You leave out a very necessary word Independent For supposing that a power of Excommunication were in a particular Congregation I cannot grant it is there independently but there may be an Appeal But did you ever hear of an Indepent Church of two or three Tr. Yes there may be a Church of so few and that independent B. A private Church I grant not a publick enabled with power of Excommunication a power supreme Lo you here is Popery in a little volume an independent absolute supreme Church made up of two or three H. Did you not grant to Mr. Tr. that two or three may be taken for any small number now you recall your words You know if there be twenty in a company we sometimes say there be two or three B. No indeed that 's too far wide Let the people judge of this whether any will say there be two or three if there be twenty persons met in a room Two or three that is twenty silence I pray But Sir the words of Christ are verified if there be but barely two And therefore I may justly think it too small a number to make the Church mentioned v 17. It cannot be for this reason The Church in the 17. v. is of more authority and more in number than the two or three mentioned in the second admonition v. 16. But two or three v. 19 20. are not of more authority nor more in number than the two or three mentioned v. 16. Therefore the two or three v. 19 20. are not the Church mentioned v. 17. Answer this and you shall hold your Supremacy to the worlds end for me H. You hold an Appeal from the Church to the Civil Power which is plain Erastianism B. Erastianisme I shall make it appear to be Christianisme But what was Erastus pray H. I came not here to be Catechized by you B. Erastus was one that denied the power of Excommunication in the Church which I do not but desire it may come into practice upon true Rules If you would know Erastus see the Book of Binding and loosing at large And noble Sir you that are a Civil Magistrate let me call you to witness that I stand here an Advocate truly to plead for the Supreme authority of this Land and I undertake to shew that the Highest powers in the Commonwealth have also the Highest Rule of the Church and may receive Appeals from any Christians that complain of wrong in any Congregation whatsoever Col. A. The Highest Powers haply doubt of that Authority and forbear to execute any such till they be more fully satisfied B. Were I worthy I would request them to know their power and use it for the restitution of Primitive Episcopacy They doubt you say but Sir these men flatly deny that authority of the Civil Magistrate in matters of Religion H. And how I pray do you prove it B. Let every soul be subject to the Higher Powers Every man saith St. Chrysostome whether Lay or Clergy Col. A. There is no such distinction of Lay and Clergy in the Scripture All the Lords people are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his Portion B. Sir you say most true that All the Lords people are his Portion that is as selected and called out of the World but his Ministers are more peculiarly his as called from among his People and admitted nearer to him being separated for the Ministration of Holy things But however all sorts of men I say whether Ministers or others must be subject to the Highest powers Tr. Yea in Civil things they must be subject not in Ecclesiastical The Powers are distinct B. They are distinct in their Objects or Matters about which they are exercised they are united in the same Subjects or Persons that are supreme in all causes both Eccleclesiasticall and Civill W. You were wont to pray for the King in that stile B. Yes when the King was and now they that have the Kingly power may withall assume the same title if they please W. By no means Temporall Governors power Spirituall B. The power of Civill Magistrates in matters of religion is called Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall in respect of the object of it about which it is conversant not in respect of the manner of operating For the supreme powers do not minister in holy things in the Word and Sacraments and censures but they take care and provide that these ministrations be rightly and orderly performed H. But how prove you an appeal to be made to the highest power in a Church-case B. Saint Paul appealed unto Caesar Acts 25. 10 11. Tr. Yea but that appeal was in a cause concerning sedition B. Hear himself speak For the Resurrection of the dead am I called in question Act. 23. 6. W. That was said in policy to divide the Pharisees and Sadduces B. However the Apostle spake nothing but the truth as appears also by the words of Festus Act. 23. 19. The question was whether he might preach Jesus and the Resurrection Tr. That Caesar was Nero a heathen tyrant and persecutor a fit man to meddle with Religion B. He was it seems fir for Paul to appeal unto for want of a better and had he acquitted the Apostle he had thereby given him a right against the Jews See Grotius of Authority concerning this particular and the whole matter As for the Supremacy of Christian Kings this is one argument If the Jewish Kings had power in matters of Religion then have the Christian Kings the like power But the Jewish Kings c. To. Let me adde another Argument out of the Prophet concerning the Christian Church Kings shall be her nursing Fathers and Queenes her nursing Mothers W. Read out the verse and you are answered They shall bow down to thee with their faces to the earth Is 49. 23. Here is subjection rather than superiority To. A superiority of Government and Patronage is included in the name of Father but these Fathers are Sons of the Church too in another sense and subject to the spirituall guides of their soules subjection and Government may consist together in severall respects B. Will you turne to the Text in Matth. 18. once more and hear a