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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78957	The papers which passed at Nevv-Castle betwixt His Sacred Majestie and Mr Al: Henderson: concerning the change of church-government. Anno Dom. 1646.	Charles I, King of England, 1600-1649.; Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646.; Marshall, William, fl. 1617-1650, engraver.	1649 (1649)	Wing C2535; Thomason E1243_3; ESTC R209178	25,946	63

favour in hope of his recantation as His good nature made Him do many things of that kind but whether he did or not I cannot say To conclude this point untill you shall prove this position by the word of God as I will Regall Authority I shall think all popular Reformation little better than Rebellions for I hold that no Authority is lawfull but that which is either directly given or at least approved by God 2ly Concerning the English Reformation the first reason you bring why Q. Elizabeth did not finish it is because she tooke not away Episcopacy the hints of reason against which Government yor say I take no notice of now I thought it was sufficient notice yea and answer too when I told you a negative as I conceived could not be proved and that it was for Me to prove the affirmative which I shall either doe or yeild the Argument as soone as I shall be assisted with Bookes or such Men of My opinion who like you have a Library in their braine And so I must leave this particular untill I be furnished with means to put it to an issue which had been sooner done if I could have had My will indeed your second well proved is most sufficient which is that the English Church-Government is not builded upon the foundation of Christ and the Apostles but I conceive your probation of this doubly defective for first albeit our Archbishops and Bishops should have professed Church-government to be mutable ambulatory I conceive it not sufficient to prove your Assertion and secondly I am confident you cannot prove that most of them maintained this walking position for some particulars must not conclude the generall for which you must find much better Arguments than their being content with the Constitution of the Church and the authority and munificence of Princes or you will fall extreamly short As for the retaining of the Roman leven you must prove it as well as say it else you say little But that the conforming of the Church discipline to the civill policy should be a depraving of it I absolutely deny for I averre that without it the Church can neither flourish nor be happy And for your last instance you shall doe well to shew the prohibition of our Saviour against addition of more Officers in the Church than he named and yet in one sence I doe not conceive that the Church of England hath added any for an Archbishop is onely a distinction for order of Government not a new Officer and so of the rest and of this kind I believe there are diverse now in Scotland which you will not condemne as the Moderators of Assemblies and others 4. Where you find a Bishop and Presbyter in Scripture to be one and the same which I deny to be alwaies so it is in the Apostles time now I think to prove the Order of Bishops succeeded that of the Apostles and that the name was chiefly altered in reverence to those who were immediately chosen by our Saviour albeit in their time they caused diverse to be called so as Barnabas and others so that I believe this Argument makes little for you As for your proofe of the antiquity of Presbyterian Government it is well that the Assembly of Divines at Westminster can doe more then Eusebius could and I shall believe when I see it for your former Paper affirmes that those times were very darke for matter of fact and will be so still for Me if there be no clearer Arguments to prove it then those you mention for because there were diverse Congregations in Jerusalem ergo what are there not divers Parishes in one Diocess your two first I answer but as one Argument and because the Apostles met with those of the inferior Orders for Acts of Government what then even so in these times doe the Deanes and Chapters and many times those of the inferior Clergy assist the Bishops but I hope you will not pretend to say that there was an equality between the Apostles and other Presbyters which not being doth in My judgment quite invalidate these Arguments And if you can say no more for the Churches of Corinth Ephesus Thessalonica c. then you have for Jerusalem it will gaine no ground on Me As for S. Jerome it is well knowne that he was no great Friend to Bishops as being none himselfe yet take him altogether and you will find that he makes a cleer distinction between a Bishop and a Presbyter as your self confesses but the truth is he was angry with those who maintained Deacons to be equall to Presbyters 5. I am well satisfied with the explanation of your meaning concerning the word Fallacy though I thinke to have had reason for saying what I did But by your favour I doe not conceive that you have answered the strength of my Argument for when you and I differ upon the interpretation of Scripture and I appeale to the practise of the Primitive Church and the universall consent of the Fathers to be judge between us methinks you should either find a fitter or submit to what I offer neither of which to My understanding you have yet done nor have you shewne how waving those Judges I appeale unto the mischiefe of the interpretation by private Spirits can be prevented Indeed if I cannot prove by antiquity that Ordination and Jurisdiction belongs to Bishops thereby cleerly distinguishing them from other Presbyters I shall then begin to misdoubt many of My former foundations as for Bishop Davenant he is none of those to whom I have appealed or will submit unto but for the exception you take to Fathers I take it to be a begging of the Question as likewise those great discoveries of secrets not knowne to former Ages I shall call new invented fancies untill particularly you shall prove the contrary and for your Roman Authors it is no great wonder for them to seek shifts whereby to maintaine Novelties as well as the Puritans As for Church-ambition it doth not at all terminate in seeking to be Pope for I take it to be no point of humility to endeavour to be independent of Kings it being possible that Papacy in a multitude may be as dangerous as in one 6. As I am no Judge over the Reformed Churches so neither doe I censure them for many things may be avowable upon necessity which otherwaies are unlawfull but know once for all that I esteeme nothing the better because it is done by such a particular Church though it were by the Church of England which I avow most to reverence but I esteem that Church most which comes nearest to the purity of the primitive Doctrine and Discipline as I believe this doth Now concerning Ordination I bad you prove that Presbyters without a Bishop might lawfully ordaine which yet I conceive you have not done For 2 Tim. 1.6 it is evident that Saint Paul was at Timothies ordination And albeit that all the seventy had their

Victory 3. When I was commanded to come hither no such thing was proposed to me nor expected by me I never judged so meanly of the Cause nor so highly of my selfe as to venture it upon such weaknesse Much more might be spoken to this purpose but I forbeare 2. I will not further trouble your Majesty with that which is contained in the second Section hoping that your Majesty will no more insist upon Education prescription of Time c. which are sufficient to prevent Admiration but which your Majesty acknowledges must give place to Reason and are no sure ground of resolution of our Faith in any point to be believed although it be true that the most part of men make these the like to be the ground and rule of their Faith an Evidence that their Faith is not a Divine faith but an humane Credulity 3. Concerning Reformation of Religion in the third Section I had need of a Preface to so thorny a Theame as your Majesty hath brought me upon 1. For the Reforming power it is conceived when a Generall Defection like a deluge hath covered the whole face of the Church so that scarcely the tops of the Mountains doe appeare a Generall Councell is necessary but because that can hardly be obtained severall Kingdomes which we see was done at the time of the Reformation are to reforme themselves and that by the Authority of their Prince and Magistrates if the Prince or supreme Magistrate be unwilling then may be inferior Magistrate and the People being before rightly informed in the grounds of Religion lawfully Reforme within their owne Sphere and if the light shine upon all or the major part they may after all other means assayed make a Publique Reformation This before this time I never wrote or spoke yet the Maintainers of this Doctrine conceive that they are able to make it good But Sir were I worthy to give advice to Your Majesty or to the Kings and supreme Powers on Earth may humble Opinion would be that they should draw the minds tongues and pens of the learned to dispute about other matter then the power or Prerogative of Kings and Princes and in this kind your Majesty hath suffered and lost more then will easily be restored to your selfe or your Posterity for a long time It is not denied but the prime Reforming power is in Kings and Princes Quibus deficientibus it comes to the inferior Magistrate Quibus Deficientibus it descendeth to the Body of the People supposing that there is a necessity of Reformation and that by no meanes it can be obtained of their Superiors It is true that such a Reformation is more imperfect in respect of the Instruments and manner of Procedure yet for the most part more pure and perfect in relation to the effect and product And for this end did I cite the Examples of old of Reformation by Regall Authority of which none was perfect in the second way of perfection except that of Josiah Concerning the saying of Grostead whom the Cardinals at Rome confest to be a more Godly man than any of themselves it was his Complaint and Prediction of what was likely to ensue not his desire or Election if Reformation could have been obtained in the ordinary way I might bring two unpartiall Witnesses Jewell and Bilson both famous English Bishops to prove that the tumults and troubles raised in Scotland at the time of Reformation were to be imputed to the Papists opposing of the Reformation both of Doctrine and Discipline as an Hereticall Innovation and note to be ascribed to the Nobility or People who under God were the Instruments of it intending and seeking nothing but the purging out of Errour and setling of the Truth 2. Concerning the Reformation of the Church of England I conceive whether it was begun or not in K. Henry the 8. time it was not finished by Q. Elizabeth the Father stirred the humors of the diseased Church but neither the Sonne nor the Daughter although we have great reason to blesse God for both did purge them out perfectly This Perfection is yet reserved for your Majesty Where it is said that all this time I bring no Reasons for a further Change the fourth Section of may last Paper hath many hints of Reasons against Episcopall Government with an offer of more or clearing of those which your Majesty hath not thought fit to take notice of And learned men have observed many Defects in that Reformation As that the Government of the Church of England for about this is the Question now is not builded upon the foundation of Christ and the Apostles which they at least cannot deny who professe Church-Government to be Mutable and Ambulatory and such were the greater part of Archbishops and Bishops in England contenting themselves with the Constitutions of the Church and the Authority and Munificence of Princes till of late that some few have pleaded it to be Jure Divino That the English Reformation hath not perfectly purged out the Roman Leaven which is one of the Reasons that have given ground to the comparing of this Church to be Church of Laodicaea as being neither hot nor cold neither Popish nor Reformed but of a lukewarme temper betwixt the two That it hath depraved the Discipline of the Church by conforming of it to the Civill Policy That is hath added many Church Offices higher and lower unto those instituted by the Sonne of God which is as unlawfull as to take away Offices warranted by the Divine Institution And other the like which have moved some to apply this saying to the Church of England Multi ad perfectionem pervenirent nisi jam se pervenisse crederent 4. In my Answer to the first of your Majesties many Arguments I brought a Breviate of some Reasons to prove that a Bishop and Presbyter are one and the same in Scripture from which by necessary consequence I did inferre the negative Therefore no differences in Scripture between a Bishop and a Presbyter the one name signifying Industriam Curae Pastoralis the other Sapientiae Maturitatem saith Beda And whereas your Majesty averres that Presbyterian Government was never practised before Calvin's time your Majesty knowes the common objection of the Papists against the Reformed Churches where as your Church your Reformation your Doctrine before Luther's time One part of the common Answer is that is was from the beginning and is to be found in Scripture The same I affirme of Presbyterian-Government And for proving of this the Assembly of Divines at Westminster have made manifest that the Primitive Christian Church at Jerusalem was governed by a Presbytery while they shew 1. That the Church of Jerusalem consisted of more Congregations then one from the multitude of Believers from the many Apostles and other Preachers in that Church and from the diversity of Languages among the Believers 2. That all these Congregations were under one Presbyteriall Government because they were for Government one Church

THE PAPERS Which passed at NEVV-CASTLE BETWIXT His Sacred MAJESTIE AND Mr AL HENDERSON Concerning the Change of CHURCH-GOVERNMENT Anno Dom. 1646. LONDON Printed for R ROYSTON at the Angel in Ivie-lane 1649. FIDEI DEFENSOR Non enim to spreverunt Solum sed me spreverunt ne Regnem super ipsos For Mr. Alex. Henderson His MAJETIES first Paper Mr. Henderson I Know very well what a great disadvantage it is for Me to maintain an Argument of Divinity with so able and learned a man as your self it being your not My profession which really was the cause that made Me desire to hear some learned man argue My Opinion with you of whose abilities I might be confident that I should not be led into an Errour for want of having all which could be said layed open unto Me For indeed My humour is such that I am still partiall for that side which I imagine suffers for the weaknesse of those that maintaine it alwayes thinking that equall Champions would cast the ballance on the other part Yet since that you thinking that it will save time desire to goe another way I shall not contest with you in it but treating you as My Physitian give you leave to take your own way of cure onely I thought fit to warne you lest if you not I should be mistaken in this you would be faine in a manner to begin anew Then know that from My Infancy I was blest with the King My Fathers love which I thank God was an unvaluable happinesse to Me all his dayes and among all his cares for My education his chief was to settle Me right in Religion in the true Knowledge of which he made himself so eminent to all the World that I am sure none can call in question the brightnesse of his Fame in that particular without shewing their own ignorant base Malice He it was who laid in Me the Grounds of Christianity which to this day I have been constant in so that whether the worthinesse of My Instructor be considered or the not few years that I have been setled in My Principles it ought to be no strange thing if it be found no easie work to make me alter them and the rather that hitherto I have according to S. Pauls rule Rom. 14.22 been happy in not condemning my self in that thing which I allow Thus having shewed you how it remaines to tell you what I believe in relation to these present miserable distractions No one thing made Me more reverence the Reformation of My Mother the Church of England than that it was done according to the Apostles defence Acts 24.18 neither with multitude nor with tumult but legally and orderly and by those whom I conceive to have onely the reforming power which with many other inducements made Me alwayes confident that the work was very perfect as to Essentials Of which number Church-Government being undoubtedly one I put no question but that would have been likewise altered if there had been cause which opinion of mine was soone turned into more than a confidence when I perceived that in this particular as I must say of all the rest we retained nothing but according as it was deduced from the Apostles to be the constant universall custome of the Primitive Church and that it was of such consequence as by the alteration of it we should deprive our selves of a lawfull Priesthood and then how the Sacraments can be duly Administred is easie to judge These are the principall Reasons which make Me believe that Bishops are necessary for a Church and I think sufficient for Me if I had no more not to give My consent for their expulsion out of England but I have another obligation that to my particular is a no lesse tie of Conscience which is My Coronation Oath Now if as S. Paul saith Rom. 14.23 he that doubteth is damned if he eate what can I expect if I should not onely give way knowingly to My Peoples sinning but likewise be perjured My self Now consider ought I not to keep My selfe from presumptuous sinnes and you know who sayes What doth it profit a man though he should gaine the whole World and lose his owne Soul wherefore My constant maintenance of Episcopacy in England where there was never any other Government since Christianity was in this Kingdome Me thinkes should be rather commended than wondered at My Conscience directing me to maintaine the Lawes of the Land Which being onely My endeavours at this time I desire to know of you what warrant there is in the Word of God for Subjects to endeavour to force their Kings Conscience or to make him alter Lawes against his will If this be not My present case I shall be glad to be mistaken or if My Judgement in Religion hath been misled all this time I shall be willing to be better directed till when you must excuse Me to be constant to the Grounds which the King My Father taught Me. C. R. Newcastle May 29. 1646. For His Majestie Mr. Alexander Henderson's first Paper SIR 1. IT is your Majesties royall godnesse and not my merit that hath made your Majesty to conceive any opinion of my abilities which were they worthy of the smallest testimony from your Majesty ought in all duty to be improved for your Majesties satisfaction And this I intended in my coming here at this time by a free yet modest expression of the true motives and inducements which drew my minde to the dislike of Episcopall Government wherein I was bred in my younger yeares at the University Like as I did apprehend that it was not your Majesties purpose to have the Question disputed by Divines on both sides which I would never to the wronging of the cause have undertaken alone and which seldome or never hath proved an effectuall way for finding of truth or moving the minds of Men to relinquish their former Tenents Dum res transit à judicio in affectum witnesse the Polemicks between the Papists and us and among our selves about the matter now in hand these many yeares past 2. Sir When I consider your Majesties education under the hands of such a Father the length of time wherein your Majesty hath been setled in your principles of Church-Government the Arguments which have continually in private and publique especially of late at Oxford filled your Majesties eares for the Divine right thereof your Coronation Oath and divers State-reasons which your Majesty doth not mention I doe not wonder nor thinke it any strange thing that your Majesty hath not at first given place to a contrary impression I remember that the famous Joannes Picus Mirandula proveth by irrefragable Reasons which not rationall man will contradict That no man hath so much power over his owne understanding as to make himselfe believe what he will or to thinke that to be true which his reason telleth him is false much lesse is it prossible for any man to have his reason commanded by the

will or at the pleasure of another 2. It is a true saying of the Schoolemen Voluntas imperat intellectui quoad exercitium non quoad specificationem Mine owne will or the will of another may command me to thinke upon a matter but no will or command can constraine me to determine otherwise then my reason teacheth me Yet Sir I hope your Majesty will acknowledge for your Paper professeth no lesse that according to the saying of Ambrose Non est pudor ad meliora transire It is neither sinne nor shame to change to the better Symmachus in one of his Epistles I thinke to the Emperour Theodosius and Valentinian alledgeth all those motives from education from prescription of time from worldly prosperity and the flourishing condition of the Roman Empire and from the Lawes of the Land to perswade them to constancy in the ancient Pagan profession of the Romans against the imbracing of the Christian Faith The like reasons were used by the Jewes for Moses against Christ and may be used both for Popery and for the Papacy it selfe against the reformation of Religion and Church-Government and therefore can have no more strength against a Change now than they had in former times 3. But your Majesty may perhaps say That this is petitio principii and nothing else but the begging of the Question and I confesse it were so if there can be no Reasons brought for a Reformation or Change your Majesty reverences the Reformation of the Church of England as being done legally and orderly and by those who had the Reforming Power and I doe not deny but it were to be wisht that Religion where there is need were alwaies Reformed in that manner and by such power and that it were not committed to the Prelats who have greatest need to be reformed themselves not left to the multitude whom God stirreth up when Princes are negligent Thus did Jacob reforme his owne Family Moses destroyed the golden Calfe the good Kings of Judah reformed the Church in their time but that such Reformation hath been perfect I cannot admit Asa tooke away Idolatry but his Reformation was not perfect for Jehosaphat removed the high Places yet was not his Reformation perfect for it was Hezekiah that brake the brasen Serpent and Josiah destroyed the Idol-Temples who therefore beareth this Elogie That like unto him there was no King before him It is too well knowne that the Reformation of K. Hen 8. was most imperfect in the Essentials of Doctrine Worship and Government And although it proceeded by some degrees afterward yet the Government was never reformed the head was changed Dominus non Dominium and the whole limbs of the Antichristian Hierarchy retained upon what snares and temptations of Avarice and Ambition the great Enchanters of the Clergy I need not expresse It was a hard saying of Romanorum Malleus Grofted of Lincolne That Reformation was not to be expected nisi in ore gladii cruentandi yet this I may say that the Laodicean lukewarmnesse of reformation here hath been matter of continued complaints to many of the Godly in this Kingdom occasion of more schisme and separation then ever was heard of in any other Church and of unspeakable grief sorrow to other Churches which God did blesse with greater purity of reformation The glory of this great worke we hope is reserved for your Majesty that to your comfort and everlasting fame the praise of godly Josiah may be made yours which yet will be no dispraise to your royall Father or Edward 6. or any other religious Princes before you none of them having so faire an opportunity as is now by the supreme providence put into your Royall hands My soule trembleth to thinke and to foresee what may be the event if this opportunity be neglected I will neither use the words of Mordecay Esth 4 14. nor what Savanarola told another Charles because I hope better things from your Majesty 4. To the Argument brought by your Majesty which I believe none of your Doctors had they been all about you could more briefly and yet so fully and strongly have expressed That nothing was retained in this Church but according as it was deduced from the Apostles to the constant universall practise of the Primitive Church and that it was of such consequence as by the alteration of it We should deprive our selves of the lawfulnesse of Priesthood I thinke your Majesty meanes a lawfull Ministry and then how the Sacraments can be administred is easie to judge I humbly offer these considerations First what was not in the times of the Apostles cannot be deduced from them We say in Scotland It cannot be brought that is not there ben but not to insist now in a Litourgy and things of that kind there was no such Hierarchy no such difference betwixt a Bishop and a Presbyter in the times of the Apostles and therefore it cannot thence be deduced for I conceive it to be as cleare as if it were written with a sun-beame that Presbyter and Bishop are to the Apostles one and the same thing no majority no inequality of difference of office power or degree betwixt the one and the other but a meere identity in all 2. That the Apostles intending to set downe the Offices and Officers of the Church and speaking so often of them and of their gifts and duties and that not upon occasion but of set purpose doe neither expresse nor imply and such Pastor or Bishop as hath power over other Pastors although it be true that they have distinctly and particularly exprest the office gifts and duties of the meanest Officers such as Deacons 3. That in the Ministery of the New Testament there is a comely beautifull and divine order and subordination one kind of Ministers both ordinary and extraordinary being placed in degree and dignity one before another as the Apostles first the Evangelists Pastors Doctors c. in their owne ranks but we cannot find in Offices of the same kind that one hath majority of power or priority of degree before another no Apostle above other Apostles unlesse in morall respects no Evangelist above other Evangelists of Deacon above other Deacons why then a Pastor above other Pastors In all other sorts of Ministers ordinary and extraordinary a parity in their owne kind only in the office of Pastor an inequality 4. That the whole power and all the parts of the Ministry which are commonly called the power of order and jurisdiction are by the Apostles declared to be common to the Presbyter and Bishop And that Mat. 15.16 17. the gradation in matter of Discipline or Church-censures is from one to two or more and if he shall neglect them tell it to the Church he saith not tell it to the Bishop there is no place left to a retrogradation from more to one were be never so eminent If these considerations doe not satisfie your Majesty may have more or the same further cleared 5. Secondly