Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
your holy father hath taught kings Emperours to waite on his trencher to hold his stirrop and kisse his feete Phi. We would haue Princes to serue that is to obey the church so S. Paul willeth them Obey your rulers be subiect to them for they watch as being to giue accōpt for your souls This is spoken as well to Princes as to priuate men Theo. You leape from one thing to an other neuer resolue certainly any thing Can you shew where S. Paul or Esaie or any other Prophet or Apostle teacheth Princes to be the Popes Bedels Bailifs to execute his pleasure The questiō betwixt vs is not whether princes as wel as others must be guided directed by religious godly Pastours the way to eternall life which is S. Pauls meaning in this place but whether the Pope cloathing himselfe with the name of the church may command the swords of Princes if he like not their doings take their kingdoms frō thē Do the places which you bring proue this that I mention say yea or no. Phi. Not expressely but only because the Pope is Christs Uicar on earth head of the church Theo. Will you neuer vnderstand how weake your proofes how wide they be from your intention First you stil presume we stil deny that your holy father is the head of the church and Christs Uicar general vpon the face of the earth On that false foūdatiō what God promiseth to the church in respect of her head which is Christ you closely conuey to the Bishop of Rome as heire apparant to that honor and excellency which Christ hath in his church a friuolous but a blasphemous imagination Next what submission obedience God requireth at al mens euen at Princes hands for the reuerencing of his word obseruing of his law that you wittingly confound with the temporall iurisdiction dominion that the church of Rome claimeth ouer Princes to command their scepters if they resist to depose their persons which is a wicked wilfull error If you loue truth deale plainly let this cunning go Phi. I seeke for truth let truth preuaile Theo. Would God you were so minded Phi. I am Theo. That shall wee see by your proceeding Phi. What say you by the wordes of S. Paul Obey your rulers Theo I say the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth leaders as well as rulers in this place standeth rather for leaders than rulers because S. Paul in this very chap. vsing the same worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remember your leaders addeth Beholding the end of their conuersation imitate their faith that is followe their steppes If wee must marke them and imitate them then surely must they be leaders to direct vs and not rulers to master vs. Secondly by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it be leaders or rulers are ment not the Pope and his Cardinals but all that be christian and godly Preachers this is S. Pauls own construction Remember your leaders which haue spoken to you the word of God We be not bound to their fansies or pleasures but only to the word of truth proceeding from their mouthes Lastly obedience here required is no corporal subiection to their persons but an inward liking and imbracing of their doctrine For as touching their persons whom it pleaseth you to call rulers in this place S. Paul maketh seruāts in other places We preach not our selues saith he but Christ Iesus to be the Lord our selues your seruants And againe Not that we haue dominion or rule ouer your faith but wee are helpers of your ioy And that was our Sauiours charge to them al. Kings of nations rule with you it shal not be so but whosoeuer wil be chiefe among you shal be the seruant of all Their function is as you see TO SERVE not to rule their brethren I meane to feede not to master the flock of Christ. Phi. The Apostle saith God hath placed thē To rule the Church Attend to your self to your whole flock ouer which the holy Ghost hath put you to rule the church Theo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not To rule the church but to feed the church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be no rulers but Sheepheards Are you not very desirous of rule when you thus wrest the Scriptures to make your selues rulers Phi. S. Hieroms translation hath Regere ecclesiam to rule the church That we follow The. You follow the old corrupt translatiō where it maketh for you and where you list you leaue it S. Hierom vpon the first chapter to Tite saith In quo posuit vos spiritus sanctus Episcopos pascere ecclesiam Dei not regere And yet regere is to lead guide with counsel as wel as to rule or force with authoritie as you may perceiue by dirigere the compound which is to direct any man what way he shal go what things he shal do what words he shal speake yet these be no rulers nor haue any iudiciall power ouer the parties so directed The english word that you abuse hath the same sense In many matters men are ruled by their friends in sicknes they are ruled by their Physition in traueling they bee ruled by their guides and yet neither friends Physitions nor guides haue any iurisdiction ouer the persons that are ruled by them Why then do you trouble the world with such ambiguities perplexities of words why speake you not distinctly why conclude you not directly The Bishops of Ephesus were set by the holy Ghost to attend their flock feede the church If by this you collect that they were placed by God to teach instruct the faithful how to walke in his waies that we graunt that we know to be most true so long as they do their message from God sincerely without adding altering or diminishing but if by colour of those wordes to rule the church you seeke to giue the Pope iudiciall power to compell and punish Princes as a Superiour iudge which is the point we striue for see what shamefull violence you offerre the Scriptures First you falsifie the Text by putting ruling for feeding the church Next you dawe the word ruling from instructing and exhorting which is Apostolike to commaunding and forcing which our Sauiour forbiddeth all his Disciples thirdly that which was spoken to the Elders of Ephesus and is common to all Pastours you present the Bishop of Rome with as his peculiar charge though hee neither feede nor leade the flocke And so where S. Paul ment the Bishops of Ephesus were set to teach and instruct their brethren you conclude the Pope must ouer-rule Princes and take their crownes from them if they yeelde not the sooner Phi. You mistake me I do not bring these places to that end Theo. To that end you should bring them for that is the doubt betwixt vs that was my demaund I required you to shewe Scripture
his brethren vnprofitable slacke in his office silent in that which is good hurtfull to himselfe all others yea though hee leade with him innumerable soules by heapes to the diuell of hell yet let no mortal man presume to find fault with him or reproue him for his doings This is the subiection which your holy father wold haue which you count vs absurd for not acknowledging But may we not iustly say to you as S. August saide to the Donatistes This which you affirme that al the worlde must bee subiect to one man as to Christs Uicar Did God or man tell it you If God read it vnto vs out of the law the Prophets the Psalms the Apostolical or Euangelicall writings Read it if you can which hitherto you ueuer coulde But if men haue saide it or rather no men but your selues beholde the deuise of men beholde what you worship behold what you serue behold wherefore you rebel you rage you waxe madde Phi. If you will not bee subiect to the Pope as Christes Uicar and head of the Church which no doubt he is yet haue you no colour to withstande his authoritie as hee is and euer was Patriarke of the West Theo. His vicarshippe to Christ and headshippe ouer the Church bee thinges that you speake much of but shewe small proofe for It were good you woulde either prooue them or not presume them as you doe they bee matters of greater weight than that you may carie them away with your faire lookes Patriarke of the West wee graunt he was which is a foule fall from head of the Church and Uicar generall to Christ himselfe and yet this way you come too short of your reckoning For first the tytle and authoritie of Archbishoppes and Patriarkes was not ordayned by the commaundement of Christ or his Apostles but the Bishops long after when the Church began to bee troubled with dissentions were content to lincke themselues together and in euery Prouince to suffer one whome they preferred for the worthines of his Citie and called their Metropolitane that is Bishoppe of the chiefe or mother Citie to haue this prerogatiue in all doubts of Doctrine and discipline to assemble the rest of his brethren or consult them absent by letters and see that obserued which the most part of them determined Before there beganne schismes in religion the Churches sayth S. Hierom were gouerned by the common Councell of the Seniors And therfore Episcopi nouerint se magis consuetudine quam dominicae dispositionis veritate Presbyteris esse maiores Let the Bishoppes vnderstand that they bee greater than ministers or elders rather by Custome than by any trueth of the Lordes appointment and that they ought to gouerne the Church in common And in his Epistle to Euagrius hauing fully prooued by the Scriptures that the Apostles called themselues but Presbyteros Elders or Seniors he addeth Quod autē postea vnus electus est qui ceteris praeponereter in schismatis remedium factum est ne vnusquisque ad se trahens Christiecclesiā rumperet That after their times one was chosen in euery Church and preferred before the rest to haue the dignitie of a Bishoppe this was prouided for a remedie against schismes lest euery man drawing some vnto him shoulde rent the Church of Christ in pieces For what doth a Bishop except ordering of others which an Elder may not doe And lest you should thinke he speaketh not as well of the chiefe as of the meaner Bishoppes hee compareth three of the greatest Patriarkes with three of the poorest Bishops he could name Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus siue Romae siue Eugubij siue Constantinopoli siue Rhegij siue Alexandriae siue Tains eiusdem meriti eiusdem est Sacerdotij Potentia diuitiarum paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit ceterum omnes Apostolorum successores sunt A Bishop of what place soeuer hee be either of Rome or of Eugubium or of Constantinople or of Rhegium or of Alexandria or of Tains hath the same merite and the same function or Priesthood Abundance of riches or basenes of pouertie doeth not make a Bishoppe higher or lower for they all be successours to the Apostles So that the Bishoppe of Rome by commission from Christ and succession from the Apostles is no higher than the meanest Bishop in the worlde The superioritie which he and others had as Metropolitanes in their owne Prouinces came by custome as the great Councell of Nice witnesseth not by Christes institution Let the olde vse continue in Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishoppe of Alexandria bee chiefe ouer all those places for so much as the Bishoppe of Rome hath the like custome Likewise at Antioch and in other Prouinces let the Churches keepe their prerogatiues The generall Councell of Ephesus confesseth the same It seemeth good to this sacred and oecumenicall Synode to conserue to euery prouince their right priuileges whole and vntouched which they haue had of olde according to the custome that now long hath preuayled Next their authoritie was subiect not only to the discretion and moderation of their brethren assembled in Councell but also to the lawes Edicts of Christian Princes to be graunted extended limited and ordered as they saw cause For example the first Councell of Constantinople aduaunced the Bishoppe of that Citie to bee the next Patriarke to the Bishoppe of Rome which before he was not And the Councel of Chalcedon made him equall in ecclesiasticall honours with the Bishoppe of Rome and assigned him a larger Prouince than before he had So Iustinian gaue to the Citie in Africa that he called after his owne name the See of an Archbishoppe Archiepiscopale munus quod Episcopo Iustinianeae Carthaginis Africanae Dioeceseos dedimus conseruari iubemus Sed aliae ciuitates atque horum Episcopi quibus passim in diuersis locis ius Metropoliticum concessum est in perpetuum hoc priuilegio perfruuntor The Archiepiscopal dignitie which wee gaue to the Bishoppe of Iustinianea within the Prouince of Africa we commaund to continue still And likewise let other Cities and their Bishops to whom in diuers places and Countries the right of Metropolitanes hath beene graunted enioy that priuilege for euer The same Prince as you heard before commanded the Archbishops and Patriarkes of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem and generally subiecteth them in ecclesiasticall causes and iudgements to the sacred Canons and his Imperiall Lawes as appeareth expressely in his publike Edicts made to that end Thirdly by the right and auncient diuision of prouinces this Realme was not vnder the Bishoppe of Rome For when the Bishoppes of Africa praied Innocentius either to send for Pelagius the Britan or to deale with him by letters to shewe the meaning of his lewde speaches tending to the derogation of Gods grace the Bishoppe of Rome made
Chrysostom refused to communicate with Theophilus his deposer and Atticus his successor If any Bishop will not communicate with Theophilus Atticus let him be depriued of his church and his goods if they be laymen they shall forfeite the magistrates their dignities the souldiers their girdle the common sort let them be fined and exiled By Honorius an other of his sonnes ruling the West partes Bonifacius and Eulalius chosen Bishops of Rome in a tumult were both commaunded to depart the Citie and Bonifacius after he was restored put vp a supplication to the prince for a decree that no man by suite or other vnlawfull meanes might be made Bishop of Rome to whom Honorius sent back this rescript By the mouth of your holines we hill haue this knowen to al Clergy men that when you shall forgo this life which we wish not they may learne to surcease from ambitiō For if two striuing be chosen neither of them shall continue Bishop but he onely shall remaine in the See Apostolike whom the diuine iudgement and general consent shall elect a fresh out of the clergie This must therefore be kept that all may put on quiet and contented mindes by our gentle admonition and not attempt any thing by seditious packing since we be resolued that neither faction shall preuaile It was no strange thing in those daies for the Bishop of Rome to be suppliāt and subiect in church matters to christian Princes When Eutiches first broched his error that the fleshe of Christ in substance was not like this of ours Leo thē Bishop of Rome made this sute to Theodosius the yonger If it please your Highnesse to graunt my supplication to command a Councell of Bishops to be kept in Italie speedily by Gods helpe might all things be redressed which nowe trouble the whole Church but hee did not obtayne so much For Theodosius appointed their meeting at Ephesus and for hast prefixed so short a time that the Bishoppes of Italie could not bee prouided for the iourneie Yet Leo sending his Deputies excuseth his absence by writing in these wordes Although to bee present at the day which your godlinesse prescribed for the Councell no possible meanes doe permit neither by former examples is my presence required and vrgent occasions at this time suffer me not to forsake this Citie specially considering the point of faith which Eutiches infringeth is so cleare that a Councell might well haue beene spared yet haue I doone my best to obeie your graces precept in this by dispatching thither such of my brethren as may suffice for this matter and shall supplie mine absence When this Councell by the violent threatning and mischieuous packing of Diosco us Bishop of Alexandria there president had allowed the cursed opinion of r Eutiches and deposed Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople for proceeding against him Leo becommeth a fresh suter to Theodosius in most earnest and humble manner For so much as the Councell of Bishops which you commanded to be kept at Ephesus concerning the matter of Flauianus hath in sight hurt the faith and wounded all churches all the churches of these parts about vs al the Priests make supplication to your Maiestie with sighes and teares that it might please you to commaund a generall councell to bee held within Italie behold most christian and reuerent Emperour I with the rest of my fellow Bishops beseech you to command that all things may stād in the same state in which they were before any of these iudgements vntill a greater number of Bishops may be gathered out of the whole world This request of his he besought the Princesse Pulcheria to commend vnto Theodosius hir brother I haue written to the most glorious and christian Prince that for the calling of a councell within Italie time might be set and place appointed all quarrels and iudgementes past on either side for the meane while suspended which thing that wee may the rather obtaine I beseech you let your accustomed deuotion which neuer failed the church in her troubles further our supplication with his Maiestie The same Leo desireth the clergie Nobles citizēs of Constantinop where Theodosius lay to ioyne with him for the better preuailing in his suite Put vp an humble supplication I pray you with good aduise that the most gratious Emperour wil vouchsafe to grant our petition which we make for a general councel to be summoned yet all the prayers meanes that Leo coulde vse notwithstanding Theodosius perswaded to the contrarie by Chrysaphius master of his pallace who was present at the said councel of Ephesus greatly fauoured the faction of Dioscorus would neuer incline to graunt him any thing but alwaies refused his request If the Bishop of Rome might haue commanded thus much against the Princes will and with-out the Princes power what needed such lowly supplications Why did he make so great friendes fet so deepe sighes shed so many teares and all in vaine What follie was it to wast so much labour and time to no purpose when the least word of his mouth as you pretende might haue commaunded both Emperour and Councell But if for restitution of the parties grieued on either side to their first estates for suspension of all actes and proceedings past in three Synodes for indiction of a generall Councell to debate their cause the Pope were to sue the Prince to graunt as appeareth by the plaine confession and humble submission of Leo then you see that in the Primatiue Church of Christ the Pope was wont to come to the Prince with a supplicamus for matters Ecclesiastical and not onely besought him as his superiour with all humilitie but obeyed him in such cases as his Lord and Soueraigne with all dutie After Theodosius succeeded Martian who by the perswasion of the vertuous Ladie Pulcheria ioynt Empresse with him was content to call a generall Councell but as touching the time which Leo requested and the place which he desired the prince refused the Popes petitiō in them both I besought your Grace saith Leo that the councell which wee made sute for and you iudged needful to pacifie the East church might by your commandement bee differred till some better opportunitie but because you led with a deuoute respect prefer Gods matters before mans I labour not against that which your Highnes hath disposed yea rather I did with so great gladnes imbrace your Maiesties trauell to call a Synode for reducing the church to concord that although my selfe were a suter to haue it kept within Italie and a fitter time to be chosen that more store of Bishops might be sent for from the farthest partes yet so soone as your Graces writ was deliuered me foorthwith I directed some to supplie my roome When this Councell was assembled Leo began to make farther sute to Martian in this wise The second councell of Ephesus can not rightly be called a councell which apparantly subuerted the
Eugenius against the Councell of Basil affirmeth plainely Concilium potest errare sicut alias errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptam dictum Hieronymi melius sentientis postea fuit praelatum statuto Concilij A Councell may erre as otherwise a Councel hath erred about marriage to bee contracted betweene the rauisher and the rauished and the saying of Hierom as being of the sounder opinion was after preferred before the statute of the Councell And your argument that the church should fayle in fayth if councels should erre he reiecteth as friuolous Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium non potest errare quia Christus orauit pro ecclesia sua vt non deficeret It hindereth vs litle if it be sayde that a Councell can not erre because Christ prayed for his Church that it shoulde not fayle For though a generall Councell represent the whole vniuersall Church yet to speake trueth the vniuersall Church is not there precisely but by representation because the vniuersall Church consisteth of all the faithfull And this is the Church which can not erre Wherby it is not vnpossible but the true faith of Christ may continue in onely one person Therefore the Church is not sayd to faile nor to erre if the true faith remaine in any one If you woulde bee farther taught that a generall councell is neither the vniuersall church nor representeth the vniuersal church and that it hath erred and may erre we can send you to a marchant of the same stampe that your selues are of where you shall see as much as I say debated and commended with no small brauerie Certum est Concilia non esse vniuersalem Ecclesiam In nullo vniuersalium Conciliorum omnium hoc sibi praesumpsisse Patres inuenient vt dicerent Catholicam se repraesentare ecclesiam praeterquam in hijs quae nunc impugnamus Constantiensi Basiliensi nouissimis It is certaine that Councels are not the vniuersall Church In none of all the general Councels shal you find the fathers to haue arrogated thus much to themselues as to say they represented the catholike church besides these two last councels of Constance and Basil which wee nowe impugne And that general councels may erre no man more resolute than Pighius Neque enim haec sola quae nunc impugnamus Concilia turpiter grauiterque errasse certum est sed alia plurima It is certaine that not onely these Councels of Constance and Basill which we now disproue haue shamefully and absurdly erred but also many others And againe In fidei definitionibus errasse etiam vniuersalia etiam sanctorum Patrum Concilia comperimus Testimonio sunt de vniuersalibus Concilijs inprimus Ariminense vniuersale haud dubie c. Insuper Ephesanum secundum ipsum vniuersale c. testimonio inquam haec sunt errare posse etiam vniuersalia Concilia etiam legitimè congregata We find that generall councels euen of holy fathers haue erred in decrees of fayth For example of generall Councels the Councell of Ariminum vniuersall no doubt and also the second councel of Ephesus and that likewise vniuersall these I say are witnesses that euen generall Councels and those lawfully gathered may erre If Panormitane and Pighius might happily bee ouerseen in empayring the credite of councels S. Augustine was not when he sayde Who can be ignorant that Prouinciall and National Councels yeelde without any stay to the authoritie of generall Councels gathered out of the whole Christian world and that general Councels themselues are often amended the former by the later with Catholike peace and Christian charitie Phi. He saith Plenary councels are amended but not from errors Theo. What needeth amending where no fault is The condition which S. Augustine repeateth in the first indureth to the last Si quid forte a veritate deuiatum est If in ought they swarue from trueth And except that be vnderstood he answereth not the thing which was obiected by the Donatists They opposed Cyprians letters Cyprians iudgement Cyprians Councel in a matter of Doctrine not of Discipline S. Augustine replieth Bishops might be deceiued and so might Councels In what now but in matters of Doctrine Phi. Can you name vs any general coūcel that erred in matters of doctrine Theo. Your owne fellow nameth the Councell of Ariminum and of Ephesus the second besides the Councels of Constance and Basill Phi. I doubt not whether that of Ephesus were a wicked Councell but whether it were general or no. Theo. The Patriarks of Rome Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem Constantinople were called vnto it and present at it with the Bishops of diuerse and sundrie Prouinces as their subscriptions declare which are extant in the Councel of Chalcedon The Bishop of Rome by his Legates as his wont was in other Councels the rest in person and therefore out of question it was no Prouinciall Councel Againe the Emperour that called the Councell in his epistle to the same saith We thinking it not safe that this question of faith should be handled without your sacred Synod and the Bishops of the holy Churches of all places thought it needful that your sanctities should assemble Phi. The Bishops that were present at Ephesus complained after in the Councel of Chalcedon that they were threatned and forced Theo. The greater the disorder that was cōmitted in the Councel the stronger is our argument that Councels may bee miscaried if Bishoppes may be forced they may likewise bee circumuented as they were in the Councell of Ariminum or deceiued in opinion as they were in the Councels of Carthage Constance and Basil by the confession of your deerest friends If all these wayes they may be peruerted when they are assembled ergo they may make both an erronious and iniurious conclusion And for this cause S. Augustine teacheth that ecclesiasticall Iudges may be deceiued in that they be but men and calleth their councels Humane iudgements which may be circumuented and beguiled His wordes be Non igitur debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere cum ille semper veraciter iudicet ecclesiastici autē iudices sicut homines plerumque falluntur The Church may not prefere herselfe before Christ forsomuch as hee alwaies iudgeth rightly and ecclesiasticall iudges as being but men are often deceiued And rehearsing two Episcopall iudgements that passed against the Donatists in the Councels at Rome and Arle hee addeth Sed haec humana iudicia deputentur circumuenire ac falli vel etiam corrumpi potuisse dicantur But let these bee counted the iudgements of men and let it bee said they might either deceiue or be deceiued and perhaps corrupted The like hee sayth of the Councell of Ariminum This is that which the Catholike fathers in the Councell of Nice had established against the Arrian heretikes by authoritie of the trueth and which afterward in the Councel of Ariminum hereticall impietie vnder an
doe that which by right we can And Cyprian himselfe did not vse the word in that sense when he saide of a Bishop Iudicari ab alio non possit cum nec ipse possit alterum iudicare hee may not bee iudged of an other since himselfe may not iudge an other And euen in his Epistle Nequâ— potest illis esse frons ad nos accedendi They can not haue the face to come vnto vs. Phi. You may thus shift out any thing Theo. It is no shift to tell you that non potest doth not euer signifie an absolute impossibilitie Nothing is more vsuall neither in sacred or prophane writers no nor in common speech than that construction of the word which we bring you Non possum quin exclamem I can not but crie out saith Cicero and facere non possum vt nihil ad te dem literarum I can not but write vnto you Where is no simple necessitie in either but an vrgent occasion only The Scriptures euerie where vse the word in like sort God saith Non potero celare Abraham quae gesturus sum Can I hide from Abraham that which I am about to doe Iacobs sonnes answere Sichem and his father NoÌ„ possumus facere quod petitis We may not do that which you request Of Iosephes brethren the text saith Nec poterant ei quicquaÌ„ pacificè loqui they could not giue him a faire word Iudas speaking of his brother Beniamin Non potest puer relinquere patrem suum and after Non possum redire adpatrem absente puero The lad can not leaue his father I can not returne to my father without him So Iephta saide to his daughter I haue opened my mouth to the Lord aliud facere non potero and I can not otherwise doe When Asaell persued Abner and would not leaue him Abner said depart least I be driuen to kill thee and then can not shew my face to Ioab thy brother Adonias to Bethsaba the mother of Salomon Speake I pray thee to king Salomon neque enim negare tibi quicquam potest for he can denie thee nothing The man of Iudah saide to the Prophet that dwelt in Bethell Non possum reuerti I can not go backe with thee though presently he did it Infinite are the places both of the olde and new Testament where the word is so vsed In the Gospell he that was in his bed when his friend spake to him said Non possum surgere I can not rise and yet he did The ghâ—st that maried a wife answered Non possum venire I can not come and yet he might The master saide to his seruant Thou canst be steward no longer when he ment he should not The Iewes â—aid of Christ This is an hard speech who can indure it which yet his Apostles did And Christ himselfe saide to his kinsmen Non potest mundus odisse vos The world can not hate you meaning it hath no cause to hate you Non potest oculus dicere manui The eie can not say to the hand I haue no neede of thee S. Paul meaneth if the eye will say truth So himselfe saith Non possumus aliquid aduersus veritatem We can do nothing against the truth that is we may or will not So saide the Sonne of God to the church of Ephesus Scio quia non potes sustinere malos I know thou canst not abide them that are euill A thowsande like there are in euery part of the Scripture but these are enough to perswade any sober mind that we bring no new nor strange interpretation of Cyprians words but such as is familiar and frequent in the bookes of God and mouthes of men Phi. The words perhaps may be so taken if that were proued to be Cyprians meaning in this place Theo. The wordes standing indifferent to both constructions yours and ours wee shall quickly see which of them commeth neerest to Cyprians meaning The sense which you make besides that it is absurde in it selfe it neither serueth the worde nor matcheth the circumstances of this Epistle nor agreeth with the maine iudgement of Cyprian in his other writinges and that which is most of all it flatly dissenteth from S. Paul who would neither warne the Romanes to feare without cause nor threaten theÌ„ with thinges impossible Phi. Proue this and expounde the place how you list Theo. Both CypriaÌ„ Paul name generally the Romanes not seuerally the Bishop of Rome from the rest Next habere accessum noteth not any corruptioÌ„ springing or not springing within theÌ„selues but only resort of others vnto theÌ„ Thirdly Cyprian complaineth that this was done and toucheth the vnshamefastnesse of heretikes for doing it which you would presse as impossible to bee done Fourthly the thing which those perfidious persons sought at Rome was not any mutation of the faith but letters of fellowshippe and communion which the Bishops of Africa denied them for their sundry disorders Last of al repeating and commending the warines of the Romanes in shunning the poyson of heretiks he shutteth vp his letter with wordes very like the former and declareth the true meaning of that he spake before Let our most beloued brethren hereafter stoutly decline and forbeare all speach and talk with such men Though I know our brotherhood there at Rome garded with your foresight and watchfull enough of themselues nec capi haereticorum venenis posse nec decipi can neither be taken nor deceiued with the venemous deuises of heretikes The right cause then why the Romanes in Cyprians time could not be caught with the baites of heretikes was not Peters priuilege or impossibilitie to er as you fondly dreame but the wisedome of Cornelius directing them and the peoples care neither to speake nor eate with any such men And this diligence remaining it was not possible that the impietie or infidelitie of others should haue accesse vnto them Other opinion of the Romanes Cyprian neuer had and as for the Bishop of Rome that he might and did erre if the wordes of Cyprian to Pompeius against the letters of Stephanus Bishop of Rome be not plaine enough in the iudgement of any reasonable man wee yeelde you the whole In reading the letters of the Bishop of Rome you may more and more perceiue saith Cyprian his errour which defendeth the cause of heretikes against the church of God And so likewise he saith of Stephanus haeresin contra Ecclesiaâ— vindicat he bolstereth heresie against the church Sua praua falsa defendit defendeth his euill and false assertion I respect not which of the twaine had the better side Stephanus or Cyprian but onely whether Cyprian had that opinion of Stephanus and other Bishops of Rome that they coulde not erre and if you haue but common sense you must say no. Much lesse did Cyprian euer meane to saie that the people
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
and eloquence hee seeketh to proue and perswade to the people of this Realme as the chiefest Bulwark of their Defence that were condemned he saith for religion we say for treason and in deed the very ground of all their actions I thought needefull to examine and to let the simple see on what a sandy slime they haue built as well their consciences as their Colleges and in how wretched and vnrighteous a quarell they haue hazarded their liues in this world and their soules in the next to inlarge the power and make vp the purse of their Rhemish founder Taking that therefore in hande I haue worde by worde refelled the fifth chapter of their Defence which purposely treateth of this matter and inserted so much of the fourth as tended to this ende the rest being a voluntarie pang of their vnbridled eloquencc as also I haue ripped vp the shamefull attemptes and tumults of Popes these last fiue hundred yeares for before that time Antichrist neither was nor durst be so bold presuming to displace depose their Lord Maister the Romane Emperor incountering him other Princes with treasons poysons battayles bloodsheds periuries treacheries such as Christendom neuer before tasted of euer since rued Where I haue not only opened the facts noted the meeknes of their martial spirits but haue vnfoulded the causes quarels for which those Princes were thus pursued with such excommunications and depriuations from Rome shewing as I go the Italian stories in fauour of their countrieman and foreman the Pope to bee exceeding partiall The like order I would haue followed in their Apologie but that as I first protested I found nothing in it worthy to bee refuted vnlesse I should haue banded their idle and emptie termes backe againe to them with others of the same making and so brought the cause of Christ and trueth of Religion to a warfare of woordes which I neither ought nor would If any man thinke me no indifferent iudge of their paines it may please him to cast his eye on the second sheete and hee shall find all the proofes and places of their Apologie aunswered in three leanes and of those fewe and weake quotations to haue made a conquest in open writing had beene incke and paper ill imployed I would therefore not take that course which seemed to me neither needeful nor profitable but to benefite the poore deceiued subiectes of this Realme and bring the Iesuites cause to the touch-stone in deede I haue chosen the principall intentes of their Apologie on which their whole foundation standeth and after mine owne course debated them more exactly and largely than the confutation of their Apology would haue suffered me For where they pretend they departed for lacke of the Catholike Sacrifice Sacramentes and Seruice which want in this Realme and because they were forced by oth to confesse an vnnaturall and impossible power in the Prince to be supreme Gouernour of all persons and causes as well ecclesiasticall as temporall and in their absence they resort for reliefe to none but to him that is the head of their catholike communion the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of their soules in earth and the vicar generall of Christ to whose predecessors all the famous Fathers called for aide comfort and counsell in their like distresses and traine vppe such as come vnto them in obedience to the churches Lawes Apostolike Traditions both written and vnwritten and to the precepts of Ancients Superiours who haue the promised spirit of trueth and are sent backe againe into this Land to execute spirituall offices and to absolue in foro conscientiae the penitent people from their sinnes of what sort soeuer schisme and heresie not excepted who seeth not that these assertions being the seueral braÌ„ches of their Apologie depend either on religion that is in strife betwixt vs or on the Princes power which they impugne or on the Popes claime to bee head of the church which we deny And therefore the proofe or disproofe of their particular actions must be fet and deriued from those chiefe and capitall springs The consideration whereof first induced mee to neglect the rouing discourses and vaunting florishes of their Apologie no lesse voide of trueth than of proofe and to betake my selfe to a stricter and directer kinde of examining the most materiall pointes on which the rest did hang as first their running to Rome siding themselues with the Pope as Christs Vicar generall against their Prince for which they haue no president in the primatiue Church The next is the princes power to commaund for trueth and right to beare the sword within her owne Realme ouer all persons for thinges and causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall without any subiection or relation to the Popes tribunall which I prooue is agreeable to the Lawes of God and practise of Christes church and therefore the oth importing the same to be good and godlie Thirdly the Popes censuring and depriuing princes of their crownes I shew to be nothing else but a wicked vnchristian pride contumelie not long since deuised by Antichrist to frustrate the word and ordinance of almighty God and to make himselfe great and so of force the subiects which be partakers with him in that hainous conspiracie by perswading assisting executing or defending the same in worde or deede against their princes to bee traytours and not martyrs if they die for that quarell Lastly the publique reformation of diuine Sacramentes and Seruice made by her Maiestie I declare to be Christian and Catholike and the partes of poperie repealed and abolished by the lawes of this Realme to be repugnant I speak for the substance of theÌ„ and not for certain indifferent ceremonies in them to the sacred scriptures and ancient fathers Other incident and adiacent matters I haue handled and those not a fewe as the generall and speciall contentes before and after will better insinuate but these foure bee the pointes that beare the burden both of their first Apologie for their Seminaries and last Defence of English Catholikes By these shal we soone discerne the truth or falshood of their pretences clamors against the Princes Lawes and such as are authorized by her highnesse therefore from the sober sad discussing hereof if they get them as they haue done to outragious and tragicall exclamations we must leaue them as men wilfully diuerting from the right way crying as loude as they can for life to drowne the voices of such as woulde recall them If they looke that all the parts of their Defence should haue bin answered in like sort as the fifth chapter is that labour I say for a man of my calling wold haue bin as fruitles as it is needles the proofs that are not here discussed may â—afely be despised the rest of their rolling rhetorik a diuine neither need regard nor should repeate As much as is inforcing to their purpose is here
skirmish and arming your selues with three scriptures and seuen fathers you thinke to vanquish and ouerrunne the Princes power in causes ecclesiasticall but soft Sirs you mistake your weapons their force is not great The nation and kingdome sayth God to Sion that wil not serue thee shal perish The kingdome he sayth not the king but graunt it were directly spoken of kings what seruice that is which God requireth of kings if you doe not knowe S. Austen will tel you In this sayth he Kings serue God if their kingdomes they command that which is good and forbid that which is euill not in temporall affayres onely but in matters of religion also And againe Yee Kings serue Christ in making lawes for Christ. So that the cōmanding their people to reuerence the word and obey the will of God and the making of strait lawes to keepe men in the faith and Church of Christ that is I say the seruice which Princes owe to God and his Sion and which you deny lawful for them to medle with By the two next places of S. Paul you prone that Pastors Bishops be rulers of the Church That worde Rulers you catch hold of as if the wordes in S. Paul did not also signifie feeders and leaders which be the two signes and dueties of good shepheards and yet we neuer denied but the messengers and disposers of Gods mysteries by preaching the woord administring the sacraments and well vsing the keyes haue their internall and spirituall regiment ouer the soules and consciences as wel of Princes as others which is the true meaning of the place that you bring out of Nazianzene Athanasius Osius Leontius Hilarie and Ambrose sharply reproue Constantius Valentinian for taking vpon them to chaunge the faith abolish the godhead of Christ plainely told those Princes they were no iudges of faith nor arbiters of doctrine which was true which false neither might they so much as interpose their iudgement or authoritie whiles such cases were debated That very lesson haue wee from the beginning taught with our lippes sealed with our blood more stedfastly than you We neuer gaue prince nor Pope right to controle the trueth or reuerse the worde which God hath established in his Church and the constant auouching thereof against earthly States powers hath cost vs as you can not choose but knowe many thousande mens liues Yet this is no let but Princes as well as other priuate persons may trie spirits and beware false Prophets And this I trust you dare not impugne that Princes may doe that for Christ which you defend they must do for Antichrist graunt vs that we require no more Chrysostome is the last of the seuen Christ sayth he when he willed Peter to feede his sheepe cōmitted the charge of them to Peter Peters successors Meaning by Peters successors not onely the bishops of Rome but him selfe and all other Bishops as appeareth by his owne words in the same place This was Christes purpose at that time when he sayd feede my sheepe to teach Peter and the rest of vs howe well he loued his Church that therefore we also should take the charge and care of the same Church with al our hearts Ambrose extendeth the wordes of Christ in like manner to al Bishops preachers It was thrise repeated by the Lord feed my sheepe Which sheepe which flocke not onely Peter receiued then in charge but he with vs and wee all with him receiued them in cure And so doth Austen When it is said to Peter it is said to all Louest thou me Feede my sheepe That women may not vndertake this charge to feede Christs sheepe it was needelesse to cite Chrysostome S. Paul sayde it before in other wordes and wee bee farre from any such follie These bee the maine and mightie proofes wherewith you thought to shake the Princes seate which conclude vtterly nothing against that we defende nor against that her Maiestie claymeth or vseth The rest of your authorities which be sixe touch not vs at all nor any thing in question betwixt you and vs saue the last where S. Hierom writeth to Damasus He that gathereth not with thee scattereth Which words we graunt were very true when S. Hierom spake them for that Damasus rightly professed the Christian fayth which the Bishop of Rome now doeth not and by gathering with him is ment no subiection to him but a felowship with him in teaching the same trueth and keeping the bande of peace which is common to all Christians Your fift chapter which should cleere you from false doctrine and proue you to be good Catholiques hath in all but one Section of twentie sixe lines to that purpose the rest is a desperate discourse of your owne full of your bolde assertions vayne presumptions without scripture or father that helpeth you or hindereth vs. For prayer for the dead you alledge S. Augustine for honouring of Kelikes and Pilgrimage S Hierom for vocation of Saints worshipping the crosse and memories of Martyrs S. Cyril for the sacrifice of the Masse Saint Chrysostome for the corporall presence of Christ in the Sacrament the Lateran Councell for Images the second Councel of Nice Gregorie to Serenus and Damascene for the power of Priesthood to remit sinnes S. Ambrose A weake foundation to beare so great a frame Cyril Chrysostome and Ambrose in the places which you quote teache nothing lesse than those errors and abuses which you mayntaine The seconde Councell of Nice was very neere 800 the Lateran Councell aboue a thousand yeres after Christ both too yong to make any doctrine Catholique Gregorie liketh that stories should be painted in the Church but adoration of thē he detesteth which yet that wicked Councell of Nice did after establish Damascene you may take backe againe his credite is so smale that we neede not answere him S. Hierom is hoat against Vigilantius and so hoat that Erasmus is faine to say Conuiciis debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom rayleth without measure Yet the most honour that he gaue to the bodies or ashes of Martyrs by whom God after their deaths wrought great miracles was to be fairely wrapt and honestly kept in their Chappels The tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles before them he denieth to be vsed in the Church in other places if any such thing were he imputeth it to the vnskilfulnesse and simplicitie of some Lay men and deuout women that had zeale but not according to knowledge What is this for your defence You make newe Relikes you set foorth vnshamefast Legends and deuise false miracles to deceiue the people you giue them Pardons for manie thowsande thowsande yeeres you promise them helpe in all their needes and effect in all their desires you make a very marte of the graces and gyftes of God to cause men to runne from place to place from Saint to Saint
from shrine to shrine to encrease your offerings which wickednes if S. Hierom had seene in his time he would haue taunted you a litle better than euer he did Vigilantius In the prayers which were made to God at his Altar we graunt with S. Austine The commendation of the dead by the custome of the Vniuersall Church had a speciall place but your prayer for soules in Purgatorie was neuer Catholique And where you send vs to S. Austens Enchiridion ca. 110. for that kind of prayer looke againe to the wordes and you shall find there no certaine doctrine but a doubtfull diuision consisting of three partes and not one of them prouing your Purgatorie When the sacrifices of the Altar or any other almes are offered for all that were baptized before they died for such as are very good they be saith he thankesgiuings to God for those that be not altogether ill they be propitiations that is procuring of mercie for such as be very bad though they be no helpers to the dead they bee some comforts to the liuing and whome they profite they profite them thus farre either to purchase them ful remission or at least more tolerable damnation The first part of this diuision that sacrifices for the dead are thankesgiuings to God is a poynt that now you can not heare of the last that they comfort the liuing but helpe not the dead by no meanes you will admit the middle is it that you stand on and that is nothing but this whom they profit they procure either full remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation Where S. Austen doth not affirme which of the twaine they shall procure but vseth a disiunctiue and of the twaine rather enclineth to the later as the likelier by correcting him selfe in this wise they shall haue remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation And for your better assurance that S. Austen on whom you relie neuer taught your Purgatorie for a matter of Catholique faith we send you back to the same father and the same booke the 69. chapter where he sayth It is not incredible that there is some such thing after this life and whether it be so it may be a question and it may be either found out or lie hid that some of the faithfull obteine saluation by a Purgatorie fire so much the sooner or later by howe much the more or lesse they loued the transitorie goods of this life If it may lie hid then is it no ground of Christian faith which must be fully beleeued of all men neither coulde the prayers of the Church depende vpon the doubtfull opinion of Purgatorie which by S. Austens owne iudgement is superfluous to be discussed and most dangerous to be resolued The rest of your places in this chapter amounting to the number often doe you litle good and vs lesse harme we receiue them without exception or distinction The words of Maximinus the Arrian you wittingly peruert to make them like ours wherein you discouer your malice and touch not our doctrine for Arius as you may reade in that disputation which Athanasius had with him vpbrayded the fathers for vsing the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not found in all the bookes of the new or old testament whereas the Church of Christ alwayes professed to beleeue nothing but what was plainely written in the sacred scriptures The selfe same cauil Maximinus vrged S. Augustine with Hae verò voces quae extra scripturam sunt nullo casu a nobis suscipiuntur These wordes and not as you translate these sayings which are not in the scripture by no meanes we receiue This obiection wee grant was both foolish and hereticall and if wee vrge you with any such spare vs not We striue with you not for names words but for poynts and Principles of faith and those we say must bee proued by the scriptures S. Paul sayd so before vs Faith is by hearing hearing out of the word of God Mauger your traditions and vnwritten verities this is a Christian and Catholique position which all the fathers confirme with one consent as shall be shewed in place conuenient In the meane time wee saie with Basill that I trowe was no Arrian Manifestus est a fide lapsus crimen maximae superbiae vel a scripto recedere vel non scriptum admittere It is a manifest fall from faith and a sinne that argueth infinite pride either to leaue that which is written or admit that which is not written Your sixt chapter handleth no matter of religion as being purposely made to excuse you from Treason and hath nothing in it any way materiall saue onely that vpon the name of Masse-priest you fall into a great rage and will needes proue the Apostles themselues the ancient fathers of all ages were masse priests And that you do ful clarkly For wheresoeuer you find the word oblation or sacrifice in any father you presently put him in the Decke for a masse-Priest I maruaile you be not ashamed professing so deepe knowledge to send vs ouer such vaine trifles The very children in England doe knowe the Lordes supper is a sacrifice of thankesgiuing a memoriall of Christes oblation on the crosse dayly renewing his death in a mysterie which is the true meaning of the twelue places that here you bring and of twelue hundred mo that might be brought to the like effect but this is nothing to the sacrifice of your masse where you professe that Christ is couered with accidents of bread and wine and offered really with your handes to God his father for the remission of your sinnes shewe but one father for this kinde of sacrifice and we will agnise not onely these whome you name but also Melchisedec and Malachie for Masse-priests Searching fiue hundred foure score and thirteene yeres after Christ with al diligence you find the worde Missa twise once in Ambrose and once in Leo and in a brauerie you demaund of vs Were they Masse-priests that sayd those masses But what if the word Missa did then not signifie the Masse but a dismissing of the Catechists before and of the faithful after the Lords supper where is your great and glorious triumphe become Looke to the fourth Counsell of Carthage the 84. Canon Let the Bishop forbid no man to enter the Church and heare the word of God neither Iew Gentile nor heretike vsque ad missam Catechumenorum that is till the Catechists be sent away not vntil the Catechists masse For they which were not yet baptized could not be present at the ministration of the Lords supper therefore Missa doth signifie the dismissing of them as the manner was in the primitiue Church to send away first the Catechists next the Repentants and last of all to giue the faithfull leaue to depart when the communion was ended which three dimissions were sometime called in the plurall number Missae
sayth our sauiour a stranger they follow not but flee from him And in baptisme you receiued no mans marke but his for that cause stand bound to regard no mans voyce but his alone Doubt you this Then view the Commission that Christ sent you to baptise with Goe teach all nations baptising them in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost teaching them to obserue all the things which I haue coÌ„manded you This text needeth no gloze Baptisme bindeth no man to the Bishop or Church of Rome but to the wil precepts of Christ. Therfore proue your religion seruice which you stoutly but falsely terme Catholike to be coÌ„manded by Christ or els women children be they neuer so seely wil collect by the manifest words of our sauiour that their promise in baptisme doth streitly bind them from beleeuing your errors admitting your masses vntill you shew good and effectuall warrant out of the word of God that you do what Christ did and teach what he taught without adding or altering any iot For this is the duetie that baptisme requireth of vs to beleeue no teacher but one which is Christ to followe no stranger to regard obey no Lord or lawmaker in the Church but only the sonne whom the father appointed to be Master leader and ruler of the Gentiles And as for your odious outcrie since the lawes of this Realme force you to nothing but what is directly commanded in the scriptures as by discussing your Apologie shal appeare you vowed wheÌ„ you were Christened to beleeue obey the will of God reueiled in his word let the worlde iudge whether your Soueraigne offer you wrong in seeking with milde and gentle correction to reforme your frowardnes or you rather forgetting your promise to God and duetie to your Prince take the way to forsake the Christian faith withstand authoritie Phi. It is against your owne doctrine in other nations that any should be forced to religion Theo. When you note the places and name the men I will answere you more directly than I can at this present to so generall an obiection Howbeit with what face can you reproue the sober and moderate proceedings of his Realme which reuenge the smalest contempt of your idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments for shame rebuke not that in others which in your selues is most rife But graunt some wel disposed persons happily warned you that true religion vseth to perswade not to compell that God did rather teach than exact the knowledge of himselfe and winning credite to his precepts by the strangenes of his heaueÌ„ly woÌ„ders despised the wil that is forced to confesse him Their purpose was to moue your clergy to delight rather in teaching than in tormenting their brethren They thought it a strange and new kind of preaching for bishops to driue men to beleeue with whipping as Bonner did or else they detested your violent and furious maner of compulsion which neither tooke pains to persuade nor alowed meÌ„ time to learn those things which you forced them to beleeue They knewe that if such as wander astray should be terrified not instructed it might be couÌ„ted a wicked ouerruling Or last of al if they spake resolutely without limitation they were nusâ—ed with ouermuch pitie which also beguiled S. Austen at the first in the selfe same point vntil he tooke better aduisemeÌ„t I was once so minded saith he that I thought no man ought to be forced to Christian vnitie but that we shoulde deale by perswading striue by disputing conquere by reasoning least they prooued dissembling Catholiques whom we knewe professed heretiques Our doctrine which you say maketh so much for you is this that your Prelats should not make it their occupation to persecute to death al sorts ages and sexes which refuse your schole trickes or reiect the dregs of your Clementines and Decretals but rather with mildnes patience seeke to recouer such as you thinke lost yet in Princes who beare the sword and are Gods Liuetenants not only to procure peace betweene men but also by lawes to maintaine â—â—â—igioÌ„ towards God we neither did nor do dispraise moderate correction when neede so requireth only we would haue such as stray from truth corrected not murdered For it neuer pleased any good men in the Catholique Church that heretikes should be put to death as Austen affirmeth Many lawes were made to punish them but no Princes law commanded theÌ„ to be slaine Yea the Lorde doth not forbid to skatter the couents of heretikes to stop their mouthes to barre them freedom of speach but to murder and kil them that he forbiddeth saith Chrisostome And therefore your tyranous barbarous hauocke of olde yong men women learned vnlearned we detest with heart and disswade with tongue wishing al Princes to folow the steps of Gratian Theodosius Arcadius Honorius other Christian Emperours who with conuenient sharpnes of positiue laws amerced banished diuersly punished heretikes yet none receiued iudgement of death except only the Maniches whose monstrous blasphemies in agnising the deuil for a god beastly defiling the sacred Eucharist deserued no lesse Such manifold coactions decreed by vertuous Princes when the Donatists rayled at for life the learned catholike father S. Austen earnestly defended to be lawful highly coÌ„mended in sundrie places Thinkest thou saith he to Vincentius no man ought to be forced to righteousnes wheÌ„ as thou readest that the master said to his seruants Compel al that you find to come in and also that Paul was forced to receiue embrace the truth by the great and violent coÌ„pulsioÌ„ of Christ except thou iudge goods landes dearer to men than their eyes Where is nowe sayth hee to Bonifacius that which these Donatists harp at so much it is free for a man to beleue or not to beleue what violence did Christ vse whom did he compel behold Paul for an example Let them marke in him Christ first coÌ„pelling afterward teaching first striking theÌ„ comforting Let them not mislike that they be forced but examine whereto they be forced And citing that part of the second Psalme Be wise ye kings vnderstand ye that iudge the earth serue the Lord in feare how do saith he kings serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with a religious seueritie those things which are done against the commandements of God as Ezekiah did serue him by destroying the groues and temples buylt against the precepts of God as Iosiah did in like manner as the king of Niniueh did forcing the whole Citie to please God as Nabuchodonosor did restraining all his subiects from blaspheming God with a dreadfull lawe Gaudentius reason that the peace of Christ inuited such as were willing but forced no man vnwilling the same father refuteth in this wise Where you thinke that none must be forced to truth against their
admonisheth her Maiestie that she must answere to God not onely for things done by her commandement and knowledge but for whatsoeuer is done vniustly by her name or authoritie though she neuer knew thereof And yet here find great fault that her Highnes respecting her duetie to God and accompt that she must make denieth to beare the burden of your wicked abuses and poysoned errors which no prince can auoyde that permitteth your Masses and licenceth your rites because the seeing and suffering your impieties is a plaine consent and in manner an open communion with your vnfruitful workes of darknes To couer the shamefulnes of your demaund you produce certaine kingdoms and Countries affected in religion otherwise than you neuerthelesse content to suffer your seruice within their dominions If it were so what inferre you thence that wee safely may doe the like Your consequent is nothing worth their doings can be no discharge for vs we may not imitate the vices but the vertues of good men First proue they do well then vrge their example Your soueraigne perceiuing by Gods law what euery Prince ought to doe regardeth not what other Princes please to doe deseruing thereby the more thanks with God and praise with men for that in guiding her people she rather embraceth Christian pietie than irreligious policie But in deede you doe the Germanes and Heluetians wrong to quote their names for tolerating two religions The reformed Churches and States there bee so farre from admitting the full Dose of your heresies that by no meanes they can digest one dramme of your ceremonies the rest I thinke persisting in ignorance retaine your faith in the same fashion they were wont Amongst whom because many Dukes Landgraues Marquesses Counties yea Bishops Barons Abbots and Gentlemen haue regall iurisdiction within their precincts it is no newes to see many lawes vnder many Lordes and in diuers regiments diuers religions As for the kings of Suetia Bohemia Polonia not able to reduce their Countries to the profession of one faith neither we may reproue theÌ„ as negligent nor you can alledge them as indifferent since not their owne fault but other mens force keepeth theÌ„ from attempting any redresse by their princely power which the nobles restraine and Commons receiue with this prouiso that their accustomed freedome of conscience bee no way prohibited or interrupted Howbeit this kind of dealing in my iudgement is very captious When you should exemplifie two religions vnder one Magistrate you tell vs of seuerall rulers bent to maintaine their seuerall faiths in steede of shewing some that be willing to ioyne falsehoode with trueth you repeat such as can not auoyde that confusioÌ„ We looked for Princes which at least had bene Christians you make your supplie with infidels and heretiques To passe the loosenes of your first allegations what meaneth the lewdnes of your latter examples Is your cunning so small or purpose so vile that you bring Pagans and Arians to countenance your intention What follie what madnes was it for you to thinke that a Prince furnished with so rare gifts of wisedome learning and vertue woulde swarue from the steps of the famous and worthie kinges of Iudah to bee sorted with Saracens and repeale the lawes of religious and auncient Emperours to take part with the chiefest vpholders of Arianisme For if God him self had not decided the case but examples of men might beare some sway King Dauid was so farre from suffering the worshippe of any strange God within his Realme that he protesteth Their offerings of blood will I not offer neither make meÌ„tion of their names with my lippes When would he think you confirme their honour and seruice with his royall authoritie that thus disdayned them commoÌ„ humanitie The good kings of Iudah were fauoured and blessed of God for walking in the wayes of Dauid their father and purging the lande from all sacrifices and ceremonies not prescribed by Moses Law contrariwise Salomon was reiected for admitting other Gods to be serued within his dominioÌ„s besids the God of Israel though this toleration were graunted in respect of his owne wiues that were strangers and Ieroboams politike deuise to worship the same God in Dan and Bethel after a newe manner turned to the destruction of him selfe and his posteritie Which feareful effects of God wrath made Constantine to decree that al teÌ„ples of heretikes should bee without any denial ouerthrowen in no place publike or priuate from that day forward should their asseÌ„blies be suffered Iouianus refused to gouerâ—e those which were not found in faith I saith he that am a ChristiaÌ„ can not become your Emperour that are the disciples of IuliaÌ„ a renegate from Christ Gratian at his first entrie finding al places ful of Arians the lawes of Valens his vncle making for them fearing some generall tumult if he should preseÌ„tly distresse so many gaue leaue that euery ReligioÌ„ might haue Churches Oratories with freedom immunitie But being once selted ioyned with Theodosius he coÌ„manded that al heresies should keepe sileÌ„ce for euer as interdicted by Gods and mans law that none should any longer presume to teach or learne prophane doctrine The same prohibition did Arcadius and Honorius continue with great seueritie Let all heretickes vnderstand that all places must be taken from them as well Churches other open places of resort as priuate houses in all which let them be debarred from seruice both by night and by daie the Lord deputie to be fined an hundred pounds if he permit any such thing in sight or in secret Theodosius the yonger Valentinian his cosin comprising in a long beadrole sundrie sorts of hereticks appoint that no where within the Romane Empire their assemblies or praiers be suffered that all lawes made to prohibite their meetings should be reuiued stand good euerlastingly These we take to be meeter Presidents for Christian Princes than Turks Persians and Arians not worthy to be named in the Church of God much lesse to be followed But imagine the credit of your Arian Emperours were lesse than it is why should you peruert their actions why depraue you foure stories in sixe lines Constantius Valens were not enduced as you pretend of their naturall benignitie to yeeld Athanasius a Church in Alexandria they were compelled much against their wils of necessitie to suffer that which of curtesie they would neuer haue consented vnto For Constans the West Emperour denounced open hostilitie to Constantius his brother if Athanasius were not restored He saith Socrates driuen to this extremitie was aduised by the Bishops of his owne faction rather to grant Athanasius the regiment of a Church than to feele the smart of ciuill warres and Valens knowing that an infinite number in Aegypt and Alexandria fauoured Athanasius and fearing least a sedition kindled in those partes the people being vehement and fierce by nature might indanger his state ceased from molesting him
your selues and confute your aduersaries but onely the breath of your own mouthes Phi. Wee giue you an oth for our discharge will you not beleeue vs when wee sweare Theo. If wee do it is more of our good meaning than your wel deseruing you dispence so fast with the breach of othes Phi. You misreport vs we do not so Theo. That shal appeare in place conuenient I will not now disgresse from the matter An oth you say we haue to purge al suspition Let vs hear it Phi. The principall of the viage doth protest that he neither ioyned with rebell nor traitor nor any other against the Queene or Realme or traiterously sought or practised to irritate any Prince or potentate to hostility against the same Further inuocating vpoÌ„ his soul that he neither knew saw nor heard during his aboad in the court of Rome of any such writings as are mentioned in the proclamation of Iuly containing certaine articles of confederation of the Pope king of Spaine other Princes for the inuasion of the Realme Theo. We heare you sweare but meane you plainly Phi. Why doubt you that Theo. You teach others wheÌ„ they be called before such as you count heretiks sophisticè iurare sophisticè respoÌ„dere sophistically to swear sophistically to answere that is to mocke the Magistrate with a captious cunning oth or answere And therefore vnlesse you giue vs a preciser strickter oth than this we trust you not You did not traiterously seeke or practise to irritate any Prince or Potentate to hostilitie against the Queene or Realme What needed this addition you sought it not traiterously Your meaning may bee you sought it but lawfully Phi. What fraud you suspect where we meane simply Theo. Then for the better explication of our selues do you thinke it treason for an English man to ioyne with the Pope or any other appointed by him to inuade the Land for the restoring of Religion and execution of the sentence which Pius the fift pronouÌ„ced against her Maiestie Phi. That sentence is extrauagant Theo. Not so For if you count it no treason as we can proue the most part of you do not to obey the Pope deposing the Queene then in your own conceits may you safely sweare you did not these thinges trayterouslie though touching the factes it were certaine you did them Phi. What a compasse you fet to intrap vs Theo. What euasions you get to delude vs but how doth this cleare the rest of your side Phi. Wee bee most assured that no English Catholike woulde or coulde bee the author thereof Theo. It is much to bee sure what euerie man of your faction would or could doe you must bee gods and not men if you can doe that Phi. Wee knowe they woulde not Theo. Leaue this follie you can not search the secretes of other mens heartes nor accompt for their deedes in a matter so impossible the more vehement the more impudent Phi. It verily may bee thought and so is it certaine that some of the principall ministers of the forenamed Princes haue aâ—nswered being demaunded thereof that the Protestantes hauing exercised skill and audacitie in such practises and counterpractises of which Fraunce Flaunders Scotland and other countries haue had so lamentable experience did contriue them to alter her Maiesties accustomed benignitie and mercie towards the Catholickes Theo. It is great pitie that Papistes bee no practisers Aske England Scotland Flaunders Fraunce Spaine Italie Scicile Germanie what practises they haue found I say not in your temporall men but in the Priestes Prelates and Pillours of your Church Righter Macheuels than the Popes them-selues Christendome hath not bred mary this indeede you were alwayes better with poysons and Treasons than with papers and pamflets and yet you spared neither Scriptures Councels nor Fathers but corrupted and enterlaced them to serue your turnes As for the procurers and setters of this late confederacie to assaulte the Realme if you knowe not who they were Charles Paget and others with you can tell or if they would dissemble Throckmorton hath tolde There shall you see whether this were a meere deuise and sleight of ours or a lewde intente and practise of yours These bee the chiefe pointes of your seconde Chapter the rest is lippe-labour and noe waye concerneth your cause Phi. Yes wee prooue it lawfull for men in our case to flie to the Bishoppe of Rome for reliefe either of bodie or soule Theo. Wee bee sure you will saie it with boldnesse enough but will you prooue it Phi. Wee will prooue it Theo. Howe Phi. Whither should wee rather flie than to the head or as Sainct Hierom speaketh to the most secure part of our Catholike communion to the rocke of refuge in doubtfull dayes and doctrines to the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of our soules in earth to the Vicar generall of Christ out of the compasse of whose fold and familie no banishment can bring vs to him that by office and vnction had receiued the grace of loue pitie and compassion to him that counteth no Christian nor domesticall of faith a stranger to him whose Citie and Seat is the natiue home of all true beleeuers and the paterne of all Bishoply hospitalitie and benignitie Theo. Whither nowe Maisters are you well aduised Phi. Why not Theo. You presume that to be most true which is most in question betwixt vs and as if your vnshamefast flatteries were sounde and substantiall verities you conclude without prouing the precedents or respecting the consequent For first what witnesse bring you that the Pope is as you say the head the rocke of refuge in doutful daies doctrines the chiefe Pastor and Bishop of your souls in earth the Vicar generall of Christ or that his seat is the natiue home of all true beleeuers and the whole Church his folde and familie What auncient Father or Councell euer liked or suffered these proude and false titles Why proue you not that which you speake Or why speake you that which you can not proue In so weightie matters do you thinke it enough to saie the worde and by and by wee must hush Phi. Wee haue else-where brought you so manie demonstrations for these thinges that nowe wee take them to bee cleare Theo. Omit these vauntes we aske for proofes and till you bring them by your owne rule we neede frame you no farther answere Phi. Make you merrie with that aduantage but yet Sainct Hierom is not so shifted Theo. His name you set in the forefront to lead on the rable of your vnsauorie speeches but the wordes of Sainct Hierom doe little releeue you For let it be that Athanasius and after him Peter Bishops of Alexandria declining the persecution of the Arian heresie fled to Rome as to the safest port of their communion because Rome was then free from the tumults of Arians so long as Constans liued and readie to receiue such as suffered affliction for
the truth of Christ which is all that Sainct Hierom saith what inferre you thence that Rome is now the like This illation commeth twelue hundred yeares too short of your antecedent and no waie dependeth vpon S. Hieroms wordes vnlesse you thinke that Rome now because shee beareth the same name must also chalenge the same vertues and praises which Rome so longe since both had and deserued which were verie ridiculous But is this all you will adde before you growe to your maine conclusion Phi. The greatest part is yet behinde For as I beganne whither shoulde we rather flie than to him whose Predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it after in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme often receiued harbored and releeued diuerse blessed Bishops and Priestes of our nation as well in the times of their prosperitie as persecution and who haue receiued againe of all our Princes Prelats and People all duetifull and correspondent honours and good Offices for so many hundred yeares togither when they and their dominions florished in much glorie and felicitie and were dreadfull to Gods enemies the Churches and their owne among whom hir Maiesties Father for his worthie writinges and doings against the Lutherans receiued the glorious and eternall title of Defender of the faith to him of whose Predecessors all the famous Fathers called for ayde comfort and counsell in their like distresses Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius and Marcus Chrysostom and Augustine of Innocentius Basill of Tiberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Milecius of Damasus Theodorete of Leo the great and all the rest of otherholy Popes as time and necessitie required to him whose Seat as Eusebius reporteth of Sainct Denys of Corinth did alwayes sende reliefe to all the Christians persecuted and condemned to mettalles and refreshed all the faithfull comming vnto it as the Parent the children to him who as he canonically succeedeth all these in Seate doctrine and dignitie so is inferiour to none farre passeth many and resembleth most Sainct Gregorie the great our Apostle in all charitie hospitalitie zeale and tendernesse of heart and affection toward the desolate namely our nation for the spirituall calamitie whereof the writer of this hath seene him weepe full hartily and hath heard him saie the goods of that holie Seat whereof he had the dispensation were for the poore afflicted domesticals of faith Finallie whither could we with more hope haue recourse than to him by whose bounteous goodnesse so manie Patriarches Bishops learned Gentlemen and Christians of all sortes English Scottish Irish Almans Hungarians Syrians Armenians Cyprians and all other vnder the Turke or any way for Christes sake oppressed or impouerished haue beene and shall be relieued Theo. A long processe to little purpose Graunt that diuerse good men in times past haue sent and gone to Rome for counsell and comfort in cases of distresse which is all in effect which you can or doe say what conclude you nowe Phi. That wee may doe the like Theo. The like you may but not the contrarie Phi. We follow precisely their steps Theo. That we denie Well you may goe to Rome as they did and so your iourney not differ from theirs in the paines which you take nor the place which you see but you neither carrie with you the same mindes that they did neither doth your holy Father content him selfe with those meanes which his predecessors vsed For the auncient Bishoppes of Rome were duetifull and obedient Subiectes to the Christian Emperours and dealt by petition and supplication in most humble wise for their afflicted brethren they neuer offered armes nor encouraged Rebell against the superiour Powers no not when Constantius the Arian banished Liberius the Bishop of Rome for dissenting from his opinion nor when Iulius the Apostata renounced the faith and openly fell to Gentilisme but euer submitted them selues to the same Lawes and paines that other godly Bishops did when the Prince tooke part with error And for this cause the traueling then to Rome whiles the Bishop there embraced the truth obeyed the State assisted their brethren by good and lawfull meanes coulde no waie be displeasant to God iniurious to Princes nor daungerous to common-wealthes In our dayes it is farre otherwise The Pope nowe taketh vpon him to depose Kinges to inuade Realmes to authorize rebellion yea to curse all that yeelde any subiection or duetie to those Magistrates that withstand their fantasies Which vile and intollerable presumption of the late Bishops of Rome neither Cyprian nor Athanasius nor Chrysostome nor Augustine nor Basill nor Hierom nor Theodorete in their times euer founde or feared And therefore both you must alter the leude perswasions of your heartes and your holie Father must leaue his wholie practises to pull Princes out of their thrones by stirring sedition and inuading their Dominions before your flocking to Rome can bee warranted by these examples Phi. I maruell you still obiect that which wre by oth haue purged You knowe wee haue sworne that in going to Rome wee had no such intent Theo. Your oth if it bee true cleareth one man for one viage but which of you doeth or can sweare for all other times and persons Howbeit in this place wee doe not vrge you with your intentes nor attempts against her Maiestie wee onely weigh the strength of your argument that you may slie to Rome as well as some learned and auncient Fathers haue done This collection of yours is not good because the bishop of Rome nowe claymeth full power to depriue Princes of their Crownes and discharge their Subiectes from all obedience contrarie to the worde of God and examples of Christes Church which in those dayes whiles these Fathers whom you mention liued the Bishoppes of Rome neither did or durst presume Phi. Wee meddle not with the Popes clayme hee can answere for himselfe Theophil You must meddle with it and bring ineuitable proofe for it before your consequent will bee currant or your slight to Rome lawfull Phi. If wee sought to Rome for succour against the Prince your saying were somewhat but I haue often tolde you we doe not Theo. And I haue told you as often that graunt you did not the Popes clayme to discharge Kinges and Queenes at his pleasure is enough to reuerse your argument Wee care not what you dissemble of pollicie for a season but what he chalengeth for euer as of right His pride not your craft is the thing we stand on and that being such as the learned Fathers whom you name neuer sawe nor suspected maketh so great a difference betweene those dayes and these that from their fact to yours no good consequent can be framed And yet I could tell you besides that when hee commaundeth you must and will execute So that although you were no seekers nor prouokers of his vnchristian dealinges
against our Soueraigne you neither may nor doe refuse to bee commenders assisters perfourmers of his vngodlie purposes tende they neuer so much to the preiudice of this Realme and disturbance of her Maiesties Title State and wel-fare Which tyranous vsurpation in him and trayterous affection in you no Father that is Catholicke did euer allowe no Prince that is auncient did euer endure And as for your skattered and maymed examples which here you heape to fraie the simple with emptie names and loftie words not one of them auoucheth and such matter or meaning Phi. If they prooue not the Popes iurisdiction ouer Princes which you stoutelie denie yet I trust they proue that wee may sende or goe to Rome to bee resolued in doubtes of Religion and to bee relieued in times of affliction which is all wee require Theophil Counsell in cases of fayth and comforte in dayes of daunger bee no signes of authoritie but dewties of Charitie neyther those peculiar to the Bishoppe of Rome but common to the whole Church of God and therefore if your examples reache no farther but that Princes haue beene sometimes aduised and other good men harbored by the Bishops of Rome whiles the Citie was famous for learning and religion you take great paines to proue that which neither helpeth you nor hindereth vs. All this may bee graunted and your running to Rome no whit the sooner concluded to bee lawfull Phi. What reason barreth vs now from trauelling to Rome more than others heretofore Theo. Your holie Father pretendeth and exerciseth in our daies a monstrous and pernicious power ouer the Church of Christ which at that time when these godly men wrote and repayred to Rome was neither attempted by him nor mistrusted by them So that they might resort to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt without offence to the Church or contempt to the state because the Bishops then behaued themselues as religious members not as presumptuous heades of the Church and liued as subiectes not as superiors to the Prince you can now not flie to the Bishop of Rome but you must do violent wrong to them both to the Prince by renouÌ„cing your subiection breaking your oth and bearing armes against your liege Ladie when the Pope commaundeth to the Church in thinking teaching the Bishop of Rome to bee the decider of all doubtes vpholder of all truth expounder of all Scriptures Confirmer of all Councelles dispenser with all lawes yea supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and all matters that any waie touch or concerne Religion Which strange and incredible pride those examples which you bring are so far from allowing that we need no better witnesse to confute you with Phi. You doe but iest I dare saie Theo. Examine the particulars you shall finde them make cleane against you or at least nothing for you The Bishop of Rome you saie gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it afterward in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme This last I may skip as a fond effect of your distempered choler The Gospell nowe preached among vs you call in your heat Zwinglianisme from the which though some of you be lightly stept I trust in God the worst your holie Father can doe shall neuer remoue vs. That this lande was infected with Arianisme and Pelagianisme as manie other places then were I finde it reported in the storie of Bede that the Bishop of Rome recouered vs from both or from either I finde it not yea rather certaine it is the Bishoppes of Fraunce our neighbours vppon request made vnto them by the Britanes sent Germanus and Lupus two french Bishoppes chosen in a Synode by the generall liking to conuert this Realme from Pelagius error which also they did with great celeritie So that of those foure recoueries to the faith which you reckon in fauour of the Bishoppes of Rome the last is the present estate which we striue for the two next be false the first is only left that furthereth your conclusion but little Phi. Will you denie that the Bishop of Rome first caused the Britanes and Saxons to bee christened Theo. I will denie nothing that is true presume you no more than you proue and we shall soone growe to an ende Lucius an auncient king of the Britanes wrote to Eleutherius Bishop of Rome for his helpe that him selfe and his people might be baptised and Gregorie the great sent Augustine the Moncke to see whether he could king Edelbert and the Saxons Doth this proue the Pope superiour to Princes or that he may send his factours hither without the Princes leaue Phi. There was somewhat in it that Lucius sent so farre Theo. This Realme was then rude learning here skant religion newly sprong no where setled Coilus his father brought vp at Rome from a child and one that of his owne accorde yeelded both friendship and tribute to the Romanes Lucius himselfe a great fauourer of the Romane Empire and no place neere home so famous well furnished with able men to serue his turne as Rome What maruaile then if Lucius so wel acquainted and frinded at Rome before thought best to be thence directed and instructed at his first entrie to the Christian faith But can you proue that Lucius was bounde to doe that hee did or that Eleutherius did any thing against the Princes will Phi. I say not so Theo. Then this example maketh litle for you which be sent hither not only without the Princes leaue but against her liking and Lawes to withdrawe the peoples hearts from her and to prepare them for a farther purpose Gregories fact in sending to conuert the Saxons maketh lesse For Augustine and his felowes notwithstanding they were sent from Rome as you are and taught nothing but subiection and obedience to Princes which you doe not yet woulde they not enter this land without the kings consent and permission but rested in the Isle of Tenet til his pleasure were knowne and offered not to preach in this Realme before the king in expresse wordes gaue them licence They came not in disguised as you doe they lurked not in corners they traueled not by night they brought no bulles in their bosomes to discharge the subiects and depose the Prince the Bishop of Rome that sent them neither stirred rebellion nor inuaded king Edelberts dominion And where you being subiects offer that wrong to a Christian Queene which they being straungers did not to an heathen king yet would you beare men in hand you follow their example but lay downe the true report of these stories and see howe handsomely they fitte your conclusion Eleutherius being requested by king Lucius sent some to baptise him and his subiects and Gregorie sent others to tâ—â—e whether king Edelbert woulde giue them leaue to preach to the Saxons ergo you may flee to the Bishoppe of
Rome notwithstanding he professe him selfe an open enemie to the Queene Phi. You still presse vs with that which we neuer ment Theo. You stil defend your selues there where we doe not strike This is the very drift and scope of all your examples as your owne wordes witnes And sor vs of the schoole and Clergie whither should we rather flee than to him Now that he hath openly shewed himselfe an enemie to her Highnes in accursing her Person in remouing her Crowne in forbidding her subiects to obey her in ayding rebelles against her and assaulting her land with force you can not so much as doubt woulde you neuer so faine the facts are so notorious and fresh in the memories of all men Phi. We noted this in you that where the Britanes and Saxons receiued preachers from Rome with honour and thankes you persecute them with all kinde of torments Theo. Your attempt is as contrary to theirs as your reward is diuers from theirs They came with religion to God and submission to Princes you come with neyther Phi. I woulde you knewe it wee come with both And you may bee ashamed to charge vs with two such haynous crimes prouing neyther Theo. Haue patience till wee come to the place where both shall bee discussed and see whether that which is nowe saide shall then be proued or no but in the meane time goe forwarde with the rest of your examples Phi. Wee flee to him of whose predecessors all the famous fathers called for aide comfort and counsel in their like distresses as Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius Chrysostome and Augustine of Innocentius Basil of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Miletius of Damasus Theodoret of Leo the great and all the rest of other holy Popes Theo. This is no reasoning but rouing You florish with a few general and doubtful termes neither opening the causes nor expressing the circumstances They called you say For ayde comfort and counsell What ayde such as the Bishops of Rome might and did yeeld in those dayes without chalenging any supremacie That is nothing to your purpose neither will that warrant your gadding to Rome Such as none could giue but they that were rulers heads of the whole Church That were somewhat if it could bee proued but your examples cōtaine no such thing Uiew the particulars Cyprian in his epistles to Cornelius Stephanus neuer calleth them otherwise than brethren and collegues and in matters concerning the regiment of the Church as well giueth as taketh both counsell and comfort But can you shewe that Cyprian euer allowed any man to runne to Rome for helpe against the iudgements and acts of other Bishops if you can not as wee bee right sure you be not able then can we shew you where Cyprian misliketh and plainely reproueth this posting of yours to Rome writing to Cornelius Hee saith that certaine persons condemned in Africa by the Bishops there Romam cum mendaciorum suorum merce nauigauerunt sailed to Rome with their fraight of lies adding farther And now what is the cause of their comming for either they like that they did and so perseuere in their wickednes or if they mislike relent they know whither they may returne For where it is a thing prescribed to vs al and besides that equal and right that euery mans cause be there heard where the crime was committed and euery Pastor hath his portion of the flocke assigned him which he must gouerne and rule as one that shall giue an accompt of his doings to God Oportet vtique eos quibus praesumus non circūcursare Those that be vnder vs must not runne thus about to Rome but there plead their cause where they may finde both accusers and witnesses vnlesse perhaps a few desperat and loose companions take the authoritie of the Bishops of Africa to be lesse than at Rome The like hee sayth of one Basilides that being depriued of his Bishopricke procured letters from Rome for his restitution Neither can this infringe the ordering of the next Bishop lawfully finished that Basilides running to Rome deceiued Stephanus our collegue by reason he is farre off not acquainted with the truth of the case getting himselfe to be restored vniustly to the Bishopricke from the which he was iustly deposed If Cyprian did not like that Cornelius should medle with matters concluded in Africa neither esteemed the restitution of Basilides made by Stephanus but reiected it as voyde and vniust what other ayde thinke you would he call for at their hands but onely such mutual concorde as should profite the Church and well beseeme the seruantes of Christ Phi. If Cyprian woulde not Athanasius did who being Patriarke of Alexandria fled twise to Rome for succour in his owne person and was there not onely receiued and harboured but also restored to his former dignitie of Iulius notwithstanding the Councels of Tyrus and Antioche had decreed the contrarie and Constantius the Emperour consented thereto Theo. The troubles of Athanasius gaue Iulius good cause both to claime and vse the vttermost of his authoritie The wrong offered Athanasius was so shamefull the madnes of Arians subuerting the faith and oppressing the Church so manifest the rage of Constantius assisting their heresie with all his might so cruell that if euer the Bishop of Rome woulde stirre this time must needes force him to doe his best Phi. And so he did I warrant you Theo. What did hee Phi. You knowe well inough hee summoned the Arians to appeare before him examined their proceedings reuersed the sentence giuen against Athanasius and placed him in his Bishopricke in spite of his aduersaries Theo. Can you proue that Iulius did al this alone without the help of others or that he did any part of this as head of the Church Uicar general to Christ Phi. What cauils you inuent when you be vrged with any thing Theo. What broken reedes you leane too and thinke them strong pillers It is well knowen the Bishop of Rome was not onely Patriarke of the West parts but of the foure Patriarkes also which were the chiefest Bishops of Christendome in order and accompt the first By reason whereof no Councell could be generall vnlesse hee were called no matters concerning the whole Church or principall Patriarks could be handled vnlesse he were present or priuie to the same Which prerogatiue was giuen him by consent of men not by graunt from Christ in respect of the Citie that was the Seate of the Empire then ruling the worlde not in token of any supremacie descending from Peter Thus much we graunt without any proofe of yours more than this if you would sweate out your heartes you shall neuer proue by these nor any other examples of the primitiue Church Phi. Then by your owne confession hee was the chiefest and highest Bishoppe in the worlde Theo. He was before the rest in honour and
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had Phi. What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See and to that ecclesiastical Canon which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop Theo. The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue that first he should be written vnto by reason of his place which was first but not that he alone should be written vnto So saith Iulius Cur igitur in primis de Alexandria ciuitate nihil nobis scribere voluistis an ignari estis hanc esse consuetudinem vt primùm nobis scribatur vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset Why then would you write nothing to vs especially touching the citie of Alexandria Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first that hence that which is iust might bee determined Phi. No better text from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church Theo. A wise catch I promise you Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe Vt ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur that euery one might determine what was iust So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest for right was to bee determined by them all Phi. The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome Theo. That which you call a Canon in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of the Church by common consent when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions And this it was In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their brethren This if any Councell did omit the Prouinces rounde about were at libertie to reiect their proceedings if they saw cause This Canon or kind of regiment obserued in the Church Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon that is Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur You should haue written to vs al that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all And as by the Canon they should haue written to al so first to the Bishop of Rome by reason that his place was the first in order among the Patriarkes which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See This is that ecclesiasticall Canon and priuilege which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons in that they called not the Bishop of Rome to their assemblie Phi. The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest Theo. Yes the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight and required the consent of the rest as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouinces and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie Phi. Why Theo. The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise for that their prouinces were very wide and many that stoutly defended the trueth were shielded by them they thought best to inuade them both at one time thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasius Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme and themselues in great danger not long to remaine without the same infection This respect made them earnest for Athanasius as Sozomene noteth The Bishops throughout the East that fauoured the Nicene faith were deposed and the cheefest Seates inuaded by the Arrians as Alexandria in Egypt Antioche in Syria the Royal Citie of Constantinople in Hellespont This the Bishop of Rome the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch and therefore very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause Phi. This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius Theo. What els can you shew that hee did Phi. Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate Theo. By mine aduise you should haue left out this it will come very short of your reckoning Phi. Not a whit Theo. Be not so peremptorie Phi. What was not this that I say done for Athanasius Theo. It was Phi. Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe Theo. An other if you could light on him Phi. What was he Theo. Constans the West Emperour Phi. Who sayth so besides you Theo. The three writers of the Church storie which with one consent agree that the West Emperour called the Councel and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suffered to enioy their former places Iulius when the letters which he sent touching Paulus and Athanasius did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes opened their cause to Constans the Emperour Constans wrote to his brother that he should send some of the Bishops of the East to shewe him the reason why these men were deposed Three were chosen who comming to Italie went about to perswade the Emperour that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly sent thē backe whence they came And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands that Athanasius the rest with him might be restored could not obtaine so much and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called it pleased the Emperour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed Phi. It might please him they should do so but how proue you the thither they came by his authoritie Theo. Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts that the
greatest Councel that euer was was called by him the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed beseeching the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father Constans vpon the hearing of these thinges presently writeth to his brother and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith Constantius moued with thâ—se letters appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica and willed the Bishops as wel of the East as the west to be their present After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers Constans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode and exhorted him to restore them to their places which when Constantius delayed and differred the West Emperour offereth him this choyse either to restore them their Churches or if he woulde not to looke for hostilitie and warre Wherupon the East Emperour being driuen to this streit sent for Athanasius and his fellowes by three seuerall letters and not only restored them but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel but Athanasius was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him where matters were ended by number of voyces Phi. Yet we saide trueth that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius Theo. I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities conclude nothing For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs Phi. You make too light of our proofes Theo. Then put you more weight to them I take them as I find them and for ought that I see you can not mend them Phi. Well esteeme them as you lift they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes Theo. I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome lest it fall that hee spareth neither men nor money to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him but when all is done God will strike the stroke Phi. No doubt he will but neuer for you that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church Theo. You be more shamefully fallen from his word consequently from faith which is the foundation of the Church neither can he be ioyned to the Church which is seuered from the Gospel But we go from the matter your examples bee not yet all discussed Phi. Returne when you will Theo. Chrysostome and Augustine you say asked ayde of Innocentius Phi. They did so Theo. Ayde they might aske and he might yeeld and yet neither make for your purpose Phi. That were maruaile Theo. None at all Chrysostome whom you first name sought for helpe as Athanasius did but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great that Innocentius coulde not preuaile Phi. It serueth our turnes that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome notwithstanding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him Theo. Chrysostome sought nothing but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges Phi. It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie that Chrysostome sought this at his handes Theo. You must make your foundation surer before your building will stand You sawe by the last example of Athanasius that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke vnlesse their consents were first had And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome request of Innocentius that he would neither admit nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him as good nor communicate with him that was chosen by them to succeede in his place Phi. This still confirmeth that nothing was good if the Bishop of Rome did dissent Theo. And still that inferreth nothing but yâ— the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne or should bynde the whole Church And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equalitie with others as a part of the Church you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others as the heade of the Church Your examples shewe this that others without him could not bind the whole Church because the conseÌ„t was not general your conclusion must be this that he without all others as Christes UicegereÌ„t in earth might dispose the whole Church at his pleasure See you no differeÌ„ce betwixt these two positions Phi. I confesse they differ but can you shew that others withstoode him as well as he withstood them Theo. Yea that I can Phi. Arians perhaps or Donatists Theo. Nay Catholike fathers Councels Phi. Shew that and you say somewhat to the matter Theo. That I will shew when your proofes are ended I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together Phi. Ours I graunt are much after one sort and therefore I long to heare yours Theo. No hast but good anon you shall you would faine I see ridde your hands Phi. You shall well know the contrarie Say what you can Theo. I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example Phi. Doe we not These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius Wherefore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen I beseech you write that these vniust proceedings both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement may be of no force as in deed of themselues they are not and let them which haue doone this wrong feele the censure of the ecclesiasticall Lawes and suffer vs that were neither conuicted nor charged with any crime nor so much as conuented to enioy your letters of communion and charitie and likewise of all others whose fellowship wee had before Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sentence voyd that was giuen against him to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion Theo. To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it to excommunicate the doers was nothing els but to communicate no longer with them which euery Bishop and prouince might do when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered Phi. This petition was made to Innocentius alone and not to the residue of the West Bishops Theo. If Innocentius alone were spoken to the matter is not great Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren for feare least when the matter came to voyces as in the end it
of her death Theo. Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great the person so famous the time so long that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to intreate Arcadius for a Councell a litle before Chrysostome died and there vnlesse they wanted both eyes and eares they could not choose but learne that the Empresse was dead Phi. She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith Theo. The more he fableth the lesse credite he deserueth Eudoxia died before Arsacius and after his death was Atticus chosen then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome Phi. Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe I layde before you what I finde in him Theo. If this be all you can say for his defence giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours which God knoweth is nothing so Next for Chrysostomes cause as it helpeth you litle so doeth it hinder you much For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode where Theophilus the Patriarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man appealed from them not to the Bishoppe of Rome but to a generall Councell So sayth Socrates Iohannes eos a quibus vocabatur tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat vniuersalem Synodum appellabat Chrysostome refused those that called him vppon this exception that they were his enemies and appealed to a generall Councell So sayth Chrysostome himselfe Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode and sought for iudgement and refused not audience but manifest enimitie yet Theophilus receiued accusors against mee excommunicated such as helde with mee and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes as were layde to their charge al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel by reason the three Patriarks of Constantinople Antioche Alexandria were against him he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius to beseech them that a Synode might be had and the time and place appointed Wherin his supplication was so litle regarded that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts would not cōmunicate with his enemies but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bishop of Rome who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the beginners of this garboyle Arcadius made this Law If any Bishop refuse to communicate with Theophilus Atticus and Porphyrius hee shall loose both his Church and his goods If any that beare office they shall forfeite their dignitie If any Souldier hee shall lose his seruice If any of the common people let them bee fyned and exiled Phi. Will you nowe trust Nicephorus Theo. Sozomene in effect sayth the same For the communion of Arsacius Porphyrius and Theophilus at the suite of the Nobles there was a lawe made that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches and those that woulde not communicate with these three Patriarkes should bee expelled So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected that the followers of it were sharply punished Phi. You know what manner of men they were that did it Theo. Such as you may not easily despise Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome sayth Theodorete I am forced to shrinke at the doers thereof for their other vertues Atticus as Socrates confesseth was a very learned religious and wise man Porphyrius sayth Theodorete left many monuments of his benignitie being a man endewed with excellent wisedome Arcadius besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment Christianissimum pientissimum Regem a most Christian and Godly prince a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers Theophilus Epiphanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much adoe drawen to yeeld thus much that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops Arsacius if Cyrillus may bee trusted was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation Phi. You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies Theo. It is the least part of my thought and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quà m reuerentiae indulgens more addicted to serue his passions than to reuerence any person And surely the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people Againe Herodias is madde againe she rageth againe shee daunceth againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish were very bitter but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church that about Chrysostoms quarrell were it right were it wrong neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome Phi. Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction yet Augustine Hierom and others did highly esteeme it Theo. The communion and felowship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church especially not with the chiefe and principall Churches vnlesse the cause be weightie and vrgent but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or the Canons tel me then what accompt they made of him Phi. That you must looke out I know no such thing Theo. So will I when my course commeth but yours as yet is not ended Phi. Myne shall not bee long Theo. As short as you will I thinke the best be spent Phi. Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie Theo. The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Carthage condemned the error of Pelagius as repugnant to the Scriptures and iniurious to the grace of God And because it was a matter of faith that indifferently concerned all they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done and to pray him also to condemne the same that as the infection was farre spred and found many defenders so the condemnation thereof might be generall and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince What can you gather by this but that it was then the manner of the Church as in trueth it was by their letters sent too and fro both to aske and to giue
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
then the rest to depart from them We know it behoued vs to be with you as assessors to your wisedoms and in common to consider how these things should be handled but these times do not permit that and the differing of it would be daungerous for that their poison taketh hold apace Phi. But Basill conferring with Athanasius howe to helpe the Church saith I haue thought it meete that the Bishop of Rome be written vnto to consider of our state and to giue vs his counsel and because it is a matter of more difficultie to sende some thence by the common decree of a Synode he himselfe vsing his owne authoritie in this matter may chose men both able to indure the iourney fit for the mildnesse easinesse of their dispositions to correct those that here with vs are wrested awry or started aside This proueth that the Bishop of Rome had authoritie sufficient of himselfe without a Synode to send Legattes to reforme things amisse in the East Churches which is cleane against your assertion Theo. You mistake the matter for lacke of due marking the circumstances When these troubles were first beginning before they came to that extremitie which after fell out Basill knowing that the credit and opinion of the West Church might stay many from falling and reduce others that were not too far gone because it would be long to tarie the assembling of a Synode and the enimie perceiuing their intent would hinder the fruit of their labours wisheth that the Bishop of Rome woulde vse his discretion in chosing some that were fit for this purpose and sende them very closely to see what good might be done by gentle and faire perswasions Phi. You qualifie the text with your owne additions Theo. You shall find them expressed in Basils owne wordes if you weigh them well First he woulde haue the Bishop of Rome written vnto to consider their state to giue thē counsell what to do Next because it is hard to haue some sent by the common decree of a Synode he vsing his owne authoritie in this so small a matter may choose men fit c. And that no man knowing of it without any stir let them come secretly by Sea to those that are here least the enemies of peace discrie their comming Lastly they fitting and applying their speach to content euery man with mildnesse and gentlenes may rectifie such of our side as tread awry So that these messengers should bee but mediators and procurers of peace betweene those that were of the same religion ioyned in communiō with the West Churches Whē they come which by Gods grace shal be sent let them not occasion any schismes in the churches but rather by all meanes draw those that be of one religion to vnity Care must be had that all things be borne with to win peace that the Church of Antioch in any case be prouided for least that which is yet syncere in her bee weakened rent in peeces through respect of persons meaning the schisme at Antioch where the Catholikes had diuided themselues and their Churches some cleauing to Miletius and some to Paulinus Phi. You could neuer speake it in a better time Upon this and other such occasions I remember S. Hierom consulteth Damasus the Bishop of Rome both what to beleeue and with whom to communicate Theo. Indeede S. Hieroms name is next and if he serue your turnes he doth more for you than al the rest of the Fathers besides but was Hierom in his old-age to seeke what to beleeue Phi. I say not so but that touching the faith and communion of the Church he submitted himselfe to the Bishoppe of Rome His wordes are worth the noting Because the East parts are togither by the eares by an inueterate madnesse of the people and Foxes there do roote vp the Vineyard of Christ therefore thought I best to consult Peters chaire and the faith which was praysed by the Apostles mouth thence desiring foode for my soule whence long ago I receiued the garments of Christ. I know not Vitalis I refuse Miletius I care not for Paulinus hee that gathereth not with you skattereth that is he that is not Christes is Antichristes And hauing opened his griefe and shewed what was demaunded at his handes by the East Bishops in the matter of the Trinitie he concludeth I beseech your blessednesse by him that was crucified euen the Sauiour of the world and by the Trinitie three persons of one and the same substance that by your letters you will appoint me whether I shall confesse there bee three Hypostases in one diuine nature or denie the same and also that you will signifie with which of those three at Antioch I ought to communicate And vrging the same matter the second time Miletius Vitalis and Paulinus say they be ioined in communion with you I could beleeue them if one and no mo said it but now either two or all three lie Therefore I beseech your blessednesse by the Crosse of the Lord by the necessarie ornament of our faith by the passion of Christ that by your letters you will signifie with whom I should communicate in Syria Despise not the soule for which Christ died Giue me leaue to be as long in repeating the wordes of S. Hierom as you were euen now in alleadging S. Basill Theo. With a good will you spend but a little the more time and we shall haue day enough Mary now you haue saide all marke first that most of these praises be not seuerall to the Citie of Rome but generall to the West Church The vnthriftie children of the East haue wasted saith he their patrimonie onely with you in the West is the inheritance of your Fathers kept vndiminished There the good ground yeeldeth an hundred fold increase that still resembleth the purenesse of the Lordes seede here the corne that was cast into the furrowes doth degenerate into tares and oates Nowe in the West the Sonne of righteousnesse shineth in the East Lucifer that fell hath set his throne aboue the starres You are the light of the world the salt of the earth the vessels of siluer and gold here are the wodden and earthen pots that staie for the yron rod and vnquenchable fire This comparison he maketh as you see not betweene all other places and Rome but between the East and West Churches preferring the one many degrees before the other Secondly the reason why Hierom himselfe depended so much on the Church of Rome was as he saith for that hee was baptized in the Citie of Rome and therefore as one of that Citie still desireth thence to bee fed in Christ where he was first cloathed with Christ. Thirdlie the pointes that hee doubted of and sought to be directed in were no matters of doctrine nor Principles of faith but a question of wordes and a dissention about the Bishopricke of Antioch for the which trifles
who can blame Hierom if he were loth to lose the communion of that Citie where hee was Christened And as Hierom here honoreth the Church of Rome for keeping her faith so elsewere he taketh vp roundly both the Citie and Clergie of Rome when occasion was offered And in this verie place by your leaue he protesteth that he followeth no man as chiefe much lesse as head of the Church but onely Christ. Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens beatitudini tuae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior I following none chiefe but Christ hold the fellowship of communion with your blessednesse that is with Peters chaire Neither doth hee pray the Bishop of Rome to appoint him what he shall beleeue touching the Trinitie as if Damasus word were the rule of his faith but where he confessed in the Trinitie three persons subsisting of one and the same substance with the Councell of Nice and the whole West Church and certaine Bishops of the East not therwith content vrged him precisely to graunt the worde tres hypostases and for sticking at it traduced him as an heretike his request to the Bishop of Rome is vt siue dicendarum siue tacendarum hypostaseon detar autoritas that he might be licenced to vse or refuse that word without being molested at their hands any farther When we aske them saith Hierom what they meane by tres hypostases they say three persons subsisting we aunswere that wee beleeue the same Non sufficit sensus ipsum nomen efflagitant quia vocabula non ediscimus haeretici iudicamur It is not enough to beleeue so they vrge the very word it selfe and because we can not frame our selues to these new wordes wee bee charged with heresie So that Hierom craued Damasus letters and authoritie for his quietnesse least hee should bee troubled in Syria where he lay among strangers for a word that he suspected to be skant sounde The other petition that he maketh is but to know which of those three at Antioch were ioyned in communion with the Church of Rome and the West Bishops that he might safely communicate with that side Graunt these two cases wherein Hierom prayeth helpe of Damasus and what are you the neerer Phi. Nay graunt the wordes that Hierom speaketh in his Epistle and see what then will follow Theo. What wordes Phi. Cathedrae Petri communione consocior super illam Petram edificatam Ecclesiam scio Quicunque extra hanc domum agnum comederit prophanus est Si quis in Arca Noe non fuerit peribit regnante diluuio I hold the communion of Peters chaire that is of the Church of Rome vpon that rocke I know the Church to be built Whosoeuer shall eat the Paschall lambe out of that house is a prophane person If any man be not in Noahs Arke when the flood riseth he shal be drowned This is as much as we do affirme or could desire for the Church of Rome graunt this and the quarrell betwixt vs shall soone cease Theo. You be so hastie when you heare of Peters chayre that you neuer looke at Christ himselfe though hee stande in your way For Hierom in the same sentence protesteth that although he keepe the fellowship of communion with Peters chaire yet he followeth none chiefe but Christ. Vpon that rocke I am sure saith he the Church is built Why may not these words now be referred as well to Christ as to Peter Phi. For shame what an euasion this is Theo. Nay shame to your selues that are so wedded to your own conceits The words are more likely to belong to Christ than to Peter if you soberly view them Christs name going first and Peters second in the sentence by the very rules of Grammer super illam Petram vpon that rocke serueth more aptly for Christ than for Peter Againe the vehemencie of the verbe scio I am right sure doth argue the wordes to be more fitly referred to Christ than to Peter For that the Church is built on Christ no Christian euer doubted but that Peter is the Rocke on which the Church is built S. Austen and others do plainly denie Phi. But S. Hierom in the third Epistle before this saith expresly Petrus super quem Dominus fundauit Ecclesiam Peter on whome our Lorde built his Church Theo. The wordes of our Sauiour in the Gospell Vpon this rocke will I build my Church diuerse men haue diuersly taken S. Austen expoundeth them thus Tu es ergo inquit Petrus super hanc Petram quam confessus es super hanc Petram quam cognouisti dicens tu es filius Dei viui edificabo Ecclesiam meam id est super meipsum filium Dei vini edificabo Ecclesiam meam Super me edificabo te non me super te Thou art Peter saith Christ and vppon this rocke which thou hast confessed vppon this rocke which thou hast acknowledged by saying Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church that is vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church I will builde thee vpon mee not my selfe on thee Hilarie likewise Vnum est immobile fundamentum vna haec est faelix fidei Petra Petriore confessa tu es filius Dei viui super hanc igitur confessionis Petram Ecclesiae edificatio est Haec fides Ecclesiae fundamentum est This only is the immoueable foundation this onely is the happie rocke of faith which was confessed by Peters mouth thou art the Sonne of the liuing God Then vpon this rocke of confession standeth the building of the Church This faith is the foundation of the Church So doth Ambrose Dominus dicit ad Petrum super istam Petram edificabo Ecclesiam meam hoc est in hac Catholicae fidei confessione Eides ergo est Ecclesiae fundamentum Non enim de carne Petri sed de fide dictum est qùia portae mortis ei nòn praeualebunt Sed confessio vicit infernum The Lord saith to Peter vpon this rocke will I builde my Church that is in this confession of the Catholike Faith Faith therefore is the foundation of the church For it was not spoken of Peters flesh but of faith that hell gates should not preuaile against it But that confession conquered hell Vpon this rocke will I builde my Church that is saith Chrysostom vppon this faith and confession Bede Vppon this rocke saith Christ which thou hast confessed will I build my church That rocke was Christ vpon the which foundation euen Peter him selfe was to be builded These meane as S. Paul doth that the right and true foundatiō of the Church is Christ and none else An other foundation can no man lay than that which is already laid which is Iesus Christ. Others I knowe applie these wordes vppon this rocke will I builde my Church to Peter mary not as if hee alone were laide in the
receaued to their fellowship they keeping still that honor and excellencie which they had in Christ before our comming Abraham is to this day the father of the faythful the Patriarkes Prophets are not depriued of their dignitie Peter no doubt as he was so he is the first Stone that Christ layed in the foundation of his Church which dignity you can not take from him after his death Phi. What then shall his successour haue Theo. The charge that he had to feede the same keyes that were giuen him and the rest to binde lose Which office if the Bishop of Rome will execute he may haue Phi. A fayre promotioÌ„ You meane he shal be a Bishop as others are Theo. God graunt he be so much More if he will haue by warrant from Peter you must proue it better than by such forged autorities manned exaÌ„ples as here you bring Those that are past your self see were to litle purpose Theodoretes example which is yet behind is like the rest Phi. He submitted him self to Leo the great was by him restored to his Bishoprike though he were not of his Prouince Theo. Leo toke his part against Dioscorus the Patriarke of Alexandria that like a tyrant in the second Councell of Ephesus not only was the death of Flauianus by spurning tredding on him but also coÌ„firmed the wicked opinion of Eutiches deposed Theodorete without any iust cause whoÌ„ the Bishop of Rome receaued to the coÌ„munion accepted for a lawfull and Catholike Bishop not regarding the sentence pronounced against him by Dioscorus Phi. Then Leo reuersed the lewd acts of Dioscorus in that Ephesine Councell Theo. Leo withstood theÌ„ as all other good men did throughout the world but the iudgement was reuersed by the great CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon not by the Bishop of Rome where Theodorete was forced with his own mouth in their presence to cleare him selfe from all suspition notwithstanding his restitution by Leo before he could be admitted to make his complaynt against Dioscorus Phi. Still you see the Bishop of Rome resisted other by dissenting from them ouerthrew their interprises Theo. And still you see the Bishop of Rome neuer ended these matters at home in his owne Câ—â—sistorie as supreme Iudge of the whole earth but euer made suite to Christiâ—n Princes that these thinges might be determined in full assemblies of Bisâ—ops by the iudgement opinion of the most part which is cleane contrarie tâ— that absolute power he now claymeth as Uicar generall to Christ the only Ruler of his vniuersall Church And therefore these examples which you haue brought many like which you might bring proue noâ— that power which you defend at this day to belong to the Bishop of Rome but rather euert the same For what needed his predecessors with all ouetie become suppliants to Catholike Emperours for the gathering of Bishops out of all quarters to decide matters in doubt and that sute often refused as when Innocentius messengers came backe from Arcadius with a shamefull repulse and Leo the great whom you last spake of besought Theodosius the yonger with sighes teares to graunt a Councell for the repealing of Dioscorus actes could not obtaine it what needed I say such earnest and humble request to those that neglected their prayers if Christ had appointed them as Peters successors and his deputies without depending on Princes pleasures or other mens voices to say but the word which should stand good in his Church against all persons in all causes both of doctrine discipline And what better conuiction of your falshood can there be than that in all these troubles tempests of the Church which you haue chosen out of many for your best aduantage the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as pretended or mentioned his Lieutenantship to Christ which you now defend but euer keeping his place which by reason of his Citie was the first among the Patriarkes ioyning him selfe to the West Bishops which were then a good part of Christendom by their helpe and the fauour of religious Princes gate those thinges that oppressed the Church and impugned the faith to be debated and determined by common coÌ„sent in generall and lawfull Councels without any reseruation or motion of his absolute power or negatiue voice Phi. Our examples you grant proue this that he resisted others now shewe you that others ouerruled him Theo. If I could not the matter were not great coÌ„sidering your examples conclude nothing against vs but least you should flatter your selues too much in your follies you shal see that others withstood him as well as he withstood others Phi. Were they Catholiks Theo. I trust you dare not account them heretikes Peter as you say the first Bishop of Rome was resisted by Paul the teacher of the Gentiles Anicetus by Policarpus Saint Iohns owne scholer Victor by Polycrates Ireneus and al the brethren of Asia Stephanus by Cyprian Damasus Syricius and Anastasius by Flauianus and all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum Innocentius by Cyrill Sozimus and Bonifacius by Augustine and two hundred and sixteene Bishoppes of Africa Caelestinus by Theodorete Leo by the great Councell of Chalcedon Gregorie by the Britanes and many other Bishops of Rome by diuerse godly Princes Prelates Countries and Councels Phi. I like not these generall florishes which serue onely to obscure the truth and beguile the simple Theo. Howe then can you like your Apologie which consisteth of nothing else And what a slender kinde of proofe was that idle rehearsall of names which you made euen now for your running to Rome But our particulars I am well content you shall skan The first Paul himselfe affirmeth When Peter came to Antioch I withstood him to his face for hee was to be blamed Phi. The quarell betwixt them was not great Theo. Not walking the right way to the truth of the Gospell and compelling the Gentiles to liue like the Iewes was no such petite fault as you make it but graunt it were The smaller the fault the stronger our instance If Paul for a light matter resisted Peter to his face what woulde hee haue done in a cause of more weight Phi. Was Peter then Bishop of Rome when Paul reproued him Theo. It forceth not whether hee were or no. Peter as you pretende had his prerogatiue not from Rome but from Christ long before hee sawe Rome and therefore was in as full authoritie when Paul resisted him as when Nero martyred him and yet if their account bee true that were the first authours of his preferment to Rome hee was rebuked at Paules handes euen when hee was Bishoppe of Rome For Peter as Eusebius or some other in his name recordeth went to Rome and was Bishoppe there in the 44. yeare of Christ that is eleuen yeares after his passion Christ being put to death in the 33. yeare of his age
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
none that your friends haue made Phi. The Bishops of Africa you know were deceiued in the number of the Nicene Canons Theo. I know they were not but graunt they were this sufficeth me that they resisted three Bishoppes of Rome Sozimus Bonifacius and Coelestinus one after an other both by their decrees and their letters For vpon occasion of Apiarius flight to Rome they decreed that Priests Deacons and other inferiour clerks if they complayned of the iudgements of their Dioecesanes should be heard by the Bishoppes adioyning Quod si ab eis prouocandum putauerint non prouocent nisi ad Africana Concilia vel ad primates Prouinciarum suarum Ad transimarina autem qui putauerit appellandum a nullo intra Africam ad communionem suscipiatur And if they think good to appeale from them also let them not appeale but to the Coūcels of Africa or the primates of their owne Prouince And hee that ventereth to appeale ouer the Seas to Rome let him be receiued of no man within Africa vnto the cōmunion Phi. This decree barreth Priests inferiour Clerks from appealing to Rome but not Bishops Theo. The Canon was fitted to the matter in question Appiarius that ranne to Rome was a Priest and no Bishop and yet touching appeales of Bishops to Rome what answere they made followeth in their letters first to Bonifacius before they sent for authentike copies to the chiefe places of Christendom to whom they signifie that cōcerning appeales of Bishops to the Priests of Rome they would suffer that to be kept for a while till they could get the Canons of the Nicene Councell after they had receiued the same from Cyrillus and Atticus they framed their answere to Coelestinus on this wise Our dewe salutations remembred and done we entreat earnestly pray you that hereafter you will not lightly giue audience to those that come from hence to you neither any more receiue such to the communion as we excommunicate because your reuerence shall easily perceiue that order taken by the Nicene councel For if there appeare a prouiso for inferior clerks and lay men how much more would the Synode haue the same obserued in Bishops that being excōmunicated in their own Prouince they should not be suddēly hastily or vnduly restored to the cōmuniō by your holines And likewise your holines must repel these wicked refuges of pristes other clergie men to Rome as becōmeth you for that by no determination of the fathers this is derogated frō the church of Africa the Nicene Canons do most euidently cōmit both inferiour Clergie men the Bishops thēselues to their owne Metropolitanes No doubt they most wisely and rightly prouided that al matters should be ended in the places where they first arose neither shall the grace of the holy Ghost be wanting to any Prouince by the which equitie may be grauely weighed and stoutly followed by the Priestes of Christ especially where as euery man hath liberty if he mislike the iudgement of those that heare his cause to appeale to the Councels of his own Prouince or to a general Councel Or how shall the iudgement ouer the Seas at Rome be good whereto the necessarie persons of the witnesses either for sex or for age or sundrie other impedimēts can not be brought For that any shuld be sent as Legats from your holines side we find decreed by no Synod of the fathers That which you sent vs hither by Faustinus as a part of the Nicene Coūcel in the truer copies which we haue receiued from holy Cyril Bishop of Alexandria reuerent Atticus Bishop of Constantinople takē out of the originals thēselues which also we sent to Bonifacius your predecessor In them we say we could find no such thing And as for your agents or messengers send thē not grant thē not at euery mās request lest we seem to bring the smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ which proposeth the light of simplicitie humilitie to those that desire to see God c. Doth your eye sight serue you Philander to marke in this olde broken matter as you call it howe many wayes the Bishoppes of Africa withstood the Bishop of Rome Appeales to Rome which Sozimus claymed by the Councell of Nice they confute by the same Councell and impugne with other graue pithie reasons Legates a latere which he chalenged they reiect as neuer spoken of in any Councell Running to Rome which you make lawfull they call a wicked refuge and sending of messengers from Rome a smokie pride of the worlde The corrupting the Nicene canons by Sozimus they disproue by copies that were true and authentike and Apiarius whome the Bishoppe of Rome harboured and restored the second time to the communion they vtterly banished from the Church of Christ and not therwith content they set downe a rule that if any Priest afterwarde did appeale to Rome no man in Aphrica should receiue him to the communion What thinke you woulde these men haue done if Sozimus had claimed to be head of the vniuersall Church Uicar generall to Christ supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and matters ecclesiastical and that not by consent of Synodes but by graunt from Christ What could they haue sayde to your vntydie vanities that the Popes seate is the natiue home of all true beleeuers himselfe the rocke of refuge in doubtfull dayes and doctrines and the whole worlde his fold and familie You must frame vs some better answere to this geare than Bonifacius your holy father did I trust in these dayes you dare not say the diuel led S. Augustine al the Bishops of Aphrica to be pragent saucie with Coelestinus as he sayd For if the diuell led them that in defence of themselues their right searched and auouched the true Canons of the Nicene Councell what spirite led Sozimus that began a strange and new clayme and to bolster vp his pride wilfully corrupted the Councell of Nice Phi. He did not corrupt the Councell of Nice but rather their Bishoppes of Aphrica that withstoode him were beguiled in the number of the Nicene Canons Theo. He did corrupt the Councell of Nice and the Bishops that detected his falshood were not beguiled Phi. They had but twentie Canons where the Councell of Nice made threescore and ten as we find in an Epistle written by those of Egypt to Marcus Bishop of Rome for a true extract of seuentie Canons after the Arians had burnt the Authentike copie which Athanasius brought from Nice Theo. You rescue one forgerie with an other When your adherents saw that Sozimus was taken tardie with belying the Nicene Councell to saue his credite they deuised that the councell of Nice should make seuentie Canons though there were neuer seene but twentie And to giue this tale some life they coyned a letter in the name of Athanasius and others to Marcus Bishop of
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
nominatiue case into the accusatiue and the accusatiue into the nominatiue as also the plurall number into the singular saying quas Apostolica sedes habere for quae Apostolicas sedes habere Thirdly you put in these words of your own heads ab ea alij which are not in S. Augustins text And so where S. Austen saith Among the which those Churches are that deserued to haue the seates of the Apostles and to receiue their letters you say plainly Among which Canonical scriptures those Epistles are which the Apostolike see of Rome hath which others haue deserued to receiue from her I report mee to your owne conscience Philander whether this be not a barbarous kind of corrupting the fathers which is often vsed in your canon law as I could shew but that I should make too long a digression Phi. If it be naught I excuse it not Theo. Come you with an if as though the case were not cleare Phi. A man may be soone ouerseene Theo. These be shrewd ouersights But returne to the matter that was first in hande The Britanes are the last that I named but not the last that resisted the Bishop of Rome whom Augustine the Monke that came from Gregorie coulde by no meanes get to yeeld him any subiectiō though king Edelbert slew twelue hundred of their Monkes in one day for refusing obedience to that Romish Legate Phi. Beda sayth so many were slayne but he sayth not for that cause Theo. Beda confesseth that seuen Bishops of the Britanes plures viri doctissimi and many very learned men vtterly refused Augustine when they met him in a Councell His woordes bee At illa nihil horum se facturos neque illum pro Archiepiscopo habituros esse respondebant Conferentes ad inuicem quia si modo nobis assurgere noluit quanto magis si ei subdi ceperimus iam nos pro nihilo contemnet The Britanes answered they woulde doe none of those thinges which hee required neither would they acknowledge him for their Archbishoppe Casting thus with themselues that if nowe hee will not so much as rise to vs howe litle accompt will hee make of vs if wee become subiect vnto him The auncient Brittish Storie which Galfridus Monemutensis translated writeth thus of them In a part of the Britanes Christianitie yet florished the which beginning in the daies of Eleutherius neuer failed among them After Augustine came he found seuen Bishopriks and an Archbishopricke supplied with yery godly gouernours Abbies a great nūber in which the flock of Christ was kept in good order Besides other Cities in the Citie of Bangor there was a most noble Church of 2100 Monkes all liuing with the labor of their hands Their Abbat was named Dinooch a man marueously well learned Who by diuers arguments made it appeare when Augustine required the Bishops to be subiect to him that they ought him no subiection Edelbert therefore the king of Kent as soone as he saw them refuse to yeeld obedience to Augustine and despise his preaching stirred vp Edelfride and other Princes of the Saxons to gather a great armie and goe to Bangor to destroy Dinooch and his Clergie Who taking the Citie commanded the swordes of his men to be turned first vpon the Monkes so twelue hundred of them the same day decked with Martyrdome entred the kingdome of heauen Lower if I would go examples are infinite where the Bishop of Rome hath beene not only stayed of his course and ouerruled but seuerely repressed and depriued of his Papacie Phi. By some tyrants or schismatiks I warrant you For neuer Catholike Prince or Bishop would offer him that abuse Theo. Fitten not so fast least you recant it with shame Godly Princes and prelats your owne Cardinals and Councels haue without any scruple cited suspended and deposed him which I trust is a plaine kind of resistance Phi. If they did all that which you speake Theo. I speake no more than your owne men doe witnesse The Grecians I will omit that neuer obeyed and long since so detesteth both him and his Church that if at any time the latine Priests had celebrated on their Altars they would not offer on the same except they first washed them as thinking them thereby to be defiled Michael Paleologus their Emperour they reiected from Christian burial for that in a councel at Lyons he professed the Greeke church to be subiect to the Romane See Phi. But after in the Councel of Florence they submitted themselues to the Bishop of Rome as to the true vicar of Christ head of the whole church father teacher of al christiās Theo. When the questiō was first moued thē at Florence their answer was We haue no leaue nor cōmission from the greeke church to speak these things And being vrged the second time responderunt vt pridie they answered as before nolentes vt de alia quaestione praeter illā de spiritus sancti processione in vnionis literis vlla mentio fieret not willing that in the letters of vnion any other matter should be contained besides the proceeding of the holy Ghost And though they were wonne at length to suffer it to passe in the letters of concorde hoping the West Princes vpon that perfect agreement would ayde them against the Turke and two of them were made Cardinals that by their authoritie the Greeke nation might bee kept in obedience Yet the whole Countrie saith Platina non ita multò post in antiquos mores recidit not long after fell to their former bent but I will not vrge the dislike betweene the two Churches The West Church will serue my turne better and stop your mouth sooner in the which we shall finde presidents enowe for this purpose Otho the great called a Councel of Bishoppes in Italie where Iohn the 13. was deposed for his infamous and lewd life the thinges bee so lothsome that I will not name them This fact of the Prince and the Synode the Church sawe suffered and allowed and receiued Leo the eight placed by them in his steede Henry the seconde likewise in a Councell draue Benedict the 9. Syluester the thirde and Gregorie the sixt three most vile monsters to forgoe the Popedome and chose Clemens the second to succeede them About Henry the fourth and Gregorie the seuenth though the stories bee diuided some taking the Princes and some the Popes part yet the Bishoppes of Germanie and Italie from Woormes Mentz and Brixia sent him but homely greetings as Vrspergensis confesseth In the yere of our Lord 1076 saith hee there was kept a Councell at Wormes where king Henry being present almost all the Bishops of Germanie except the Saxons deposed Pope Hildebrand writing him a letter after many crimes recited with this conclusion For so much then as thine entrance into the Popedome is infected with so great periuries and the Church of God dangerously tossed by reason of thy
nouelties and thy life stayned with so manifold infamies wee let thee vnderstand that as we neuer promised thee obedience so hereafter will wee yeeld thee none because no man amongst vs as thou openly gauest out hath bene hereto accounted a Bishoppe by thee thou also from henceforth shalt be taken by none of vs for Apostolike The Bishops and nobles at Brixia concluded against him in these woordes Because it is certaine that he was not chosen by God but by fraude and briberie most shamelesly intruded himselfe which also subuerteth the order of the Church and troubleth the Christian Empire which practiseth to kill both the body and soule of our Catholike and peaceable king and maintaineth a periured king which hath sowed discord betwene those that agreed strife betwene those that were at peace offences betwene brethren and diuorces betweene man and wife and hath shaken whatsoeuer stood quiet amongst the godly we assembled togither in the name of God agaynst the said Hildebrand a most impudent person breathing out sacrileges spoiles defending periuries and murderers calling in question the Catholicke and Apostolike faith of the body and blood of our Lorde an olde disciple of the heretike Berengarius an obseruer of diuinations dreames a manifest cōiurer vsing familiaritie with diuels and therefore fallen from the true faith adiudge him to be Canonically deposed expelled And this toke place three yeres after when the Romanes desired a day to be appointed in the which the Pope and all the Senators shoulde come before the Emperour but the Pope woulde not come in presence whereupon the Romanes being moued yeelded to the king and with one consent reiected Pope Hildebrand who secretly fleeing gate him to Salerna and there stayed till he dyed Phi. Henry did this by force and the Bishops that so reuiled the Pope were of his faction but the stories commend Gregorie the seuenth for a wise iust milde man a fauourer of the poore of orphanes and widowes and the only stout and earnest defender of the Romane Church against the treacheries of heretikes and power of ill disposed princes seeking to possesse the goods of the Church by violence Theo. Gregories life I will not examine it is not incident to this matter Yet if we beleeue Beno the Cardinall that liued at the same time he deserueth no such prayse as you giue him but I respect not that in this place Certaine it is the Bishops of Germanie and Italie not onley refused but also deposed him yea thirteene Cardinals of the wiser and better sort the Archdeacon and chiefe president and many of the Laterane Clergie at Rome seeing his intollerable Apostasie forsooke his communion and so by the iudgement of the Romanes themselues Hildebrand was turned out of his Popedome Phi. I know they did it but therein they passed their boundes Theo. If the crimes by them obiected were true they did but their dueties Phi. Their accusations were all false Theo. That is lustily spoken but faintly proued and yet if it were so my first assertion standeth good that your owne Cardinals Councels haue often resisted repressed the Bishop of Rome Phi. And my answere standeth as good that they were schismatikes which did so Theo. What say you then to the Councel at Pisa where the whole Colledge of Cardinals with one consent depriued Gregorie Benedict of their Popedomes all nations allowing that strait sentence besides a few that fauoured Benedictus and Alexander the fift on his death bed protesting their actes in that Councel to be good and lawfull Will you nowe replie that all nations and all the cardinals yea the Pope himselfe were schismatikes Or if you care not for that what say you to the generall Councell of Constance that deposed as many Popes as the Councell of Pisa and not only de facto did it but also expressely and aduisedly decreed that they might doe it Dare you thinke the Councell of Constance to be schismatical And what if the general Councel of Basill by manifest positions conclude you an heretike for holding that a Councell may not depose the Pope will you rather incurre the guilt of heresie than forsake your new found diuinitie Phi. You load mee with too many allegations at once I can not tell which to answere first Theo. I will seuer them with a good will say what you can against them The general Councel of Pisa deposed two Popes and chose Alexander the first ergo the Pope may bee both resisted and depriued by a Councell Phi. Was that Councell generall Theo. Reade the Bull of Iohn the 23. conuocating the Councell of Constance Dudum felicis recordationis Alexander Papa quintus praedecessor noster in sacro generals Pisano Concilio tunc praesidens c. Not long since Alexander the fift of happie memorie our predecessor then sitting chiefe in the sacred generall Councell at Pisa. Laziardus a writer of that age sayth Both Colleges of Cardinals or at least the most part of them called a generall Councell at Pisa where they stayed from the Annuntiation of the virgine Marie till the xxvi of Iune with a great number of Prelats Ambassadours of Kings Princes Vniuersities Vpon which day those two which stroue for the Popedome being first depriued by sentence and order of lawe in all thinges obserued they chose Alexander the fift Phi. Doe al stories agree that they deposed Gregorie and Benedict Theo. See Blondus Auentinus Nauclerus Sabellicus Paulus Aemylius or whome you will The Cardinals of Gregorie and Benedict sayth Nauclerus meeting conferring resolued the citie of Pisa to be the fittest place for a general coūcel to be kept Whereupon by letters and messengers they called al Bishops Prelats Princes cōmunities to come to the Coūcell that should be held at Pisa exhorting them to send their Legats to withhold obedience from those two Popes whom they had cited to be present there In the yeere of our Lord 1409. at Pisa they began to proceed and against both Popes Gregorie and Benedict not appearing vpon lawfull citation but wilfully refusing they pronounced sentence of deposition and depriuation as against heretikes and schismatikes forbidding all Christians to cal either of them Pope or yeld either of them obedience as Bishop of Rome This done they went to the election of an other whom they called Alexander the fift Phi. Might they cal and keepe a Councell without any Pope Theo. Looke you to that Nauclerus addeth that About the deposition of these two Popes there was a great debating in the Councel of Pisa whether graunting that both these Popes did scandalize the Church by manifest collusion and periurie c. the Cardinals might cal a councel both of them being cited to come to the Councell not appearing but persisting in their contumacie whether they might be deposed and an other chosen And after long disputation in the presence of very many Doctors of diuinitie and
of both lawes no man gainesaying but all consenting it was concluded that it might bee lawfully canonically done Marke Philander a generall Councell called without a Pope and two Popes deposed in the same for not appearing before the councell al this good lawful by the iudgement of your owne Cardinals diuines and Canonists without contradiction and the Pope himselfe accepting this for a sacred and ecumenicall Councell Phi. I maruaile they went so farre Theo. Neuer maruaile at that The general Councel of Constance which followed fiue yeres after this went a great deale farther For when Iohn the 23 had by his letters called the Councell and sate amongst them in person as president and head of the Councell the first thing they did they began to sift him and notwithstanding he fled and left the Councel without Uicegerent or deputie yet they proceeded and not onely suspended but also depriued him for his notorious Symonie and detestable and vnhonest life and maners And likewise when by no meanes they could get Gregorie the 13 to resigne or appeare before them they condemned him for a schismatike and an heretike incorrigible and cut him off as a withered member And least you shoulde thinke this rashly or lightly done they solemnly decreed that the Pope was subiect to them and bound to obey them could not without their liking dissolue or remoue the councell and to that end they did frustrate and reuerse all that was done or might be done by the Pope present or absent to the preiudice and disturbance of their Synode Can you wish for playner examples that a Councell may proceede without and against the Bishoppe of Rome than these be Phi. I confesse they make me stagger and yet I dare not trust them vnlesse the Church receiue them Theo. And doth your church nowe mislike the proceedings at Constance and Pisa which the church of Rome then and all other nations by the witnes of your nearest frinds approued and followed as right and syncere Phi. I refuse not the Councels Theo. But doth your Church allow them for general Phi. I think she doth Theo. Keepe your thoughts to your self my question is whether your Church accept them or no Phi. Shee doth not reiect them Theo. Answer directly Doth your Church embrace thē or no Phi. Shee doth Theo. You might haue sayd so rather what needed this circumquaque to no purpose Then I inferre the doctrine of your church litle more than eight skore yeres agoe was that a Councell might ouerrule and depose the Pope and the same Councel be called and kept without him if he colluded or refused This is proued as well by the deedes of the councels of Constance Pisa which are alreadie shewed as by their decrees which are extant to this day What was concluded at Pisa by generall assent I sayde before what the Councell of Constance resolued in the like case their words shall declare First this holy Synode of Constance lawfully congregated in the holy Ghost being a general councel and representing the catholike church militant hath power immediate from Christ the which power euery one of what state or dignity soeuer he be yea the Pope himself is bound to obey in those things that concerne the faith general reformatiō of the church of God in the head mēbers Again it declareth that whosoeuer of any cōdition state or dignitie yea though he be Pope shal stubburnly refuse to obey the statutes ordinances precepts which this sacred Synode or any other general coūcel lawfully gathered hath already made or shal hereafter make concerning the premisses or any their appertinents except hee repent hee shal be driuen to condigne satisfaction and dewly punished and if need be other helps and remedies of law and Iustice vsed Item this holy Synode ordereth defineth determineth and declareth that if our sayd Lord the Pope being required for vnities sake by this sacred Councel do refuse to forsake his Popedome or defer the renouncing thereof longer than he should as then so now and as now so then shal be counted by al Christian faithful men to be depriued of his Popedome and al obedience withdrawen from him And not herewith content after they had cited and expected him they proceeded first to his suspention and after to his depriuation in this wise Because it plainly appeareth to vs that our Lord Pope Iohn the 23. from the time that hee was chosen to the Popedome til this present hath il gouerned that office to the publike slaunder of himselfe the Church and with his damnable life filthie manners hath giuen and yet giueth to others an example of loose life and moreouer hath by playne Symonical contracts sold Cathedral churches Monasteries Priories and other Ecclesiastical benifices therefore by this our sentence we pronounce and decree the said Lord Pope Iohn worthie to bee suspended from al administration of the Popedome both spiritual and temporal and wee doe suspend him and by this writing forbid him the execution thereof And we declare that for and vpon the premisses as being notorious we ought mind to proceed to the final reiecting him from the Popedome Wherefore we streitly prohibite you and euery one of you by the tenor of these presents in vertue of your obedience vnder payne to be counted fauourers of this schisme whether you bee kings Cardinals Patriarkes Archbishops bishops or whatsoeuer spiritual or secular persons that you nor any of you directly or indirectly hereafter obey regard or assist the sayd Pope Iohn being iustly suspended by vs from al intermedling with the Popes function c. The very same causes they repeat when they depriue him adding that his departure from the Citie and sacred generall Councell of Constance closely by night at an vnseasonable houre in strange and dissembled apparel was vnlawful and scandalous to the Church the Councel as troubling and hindering the peace and vnion of the Church nourishing an inueterate schisme and swaruing from his vowe promise oth therfore say they the sacred general councel of Constance by this definitiue sentence here cōprised in writing pronounceth adiudgeth and declareth the saide Pope Iohn as vnworthie vnprofitable and hurtful to be remoued depriued and deposed from the Popedome and from al spiritual and temporal administration therof therwithal doth remoue depriue and depose him declaring al christians of what state or degree or condition soeuer they be to stand quiet and discharged from his obedience and the fidelitie and oth which they haue made to him Inhibiting al the faithful of Christ hereafter so much as to call him Pope being now deposed from his office or to cleaue to him or any way to obey him as Pope Phi. You repeate this at large that the simple might see how solemnely the Pope was deposed Theo. I doe in deede and you must thinke they looke for your answere Phi. How hastie you be when you haue a little
it vp translated the same from Basill to Bononia by the consent of all the cardinals that were about him But the Emperour and the rest of the Princes and Prelates that were at Basill were so farre from obeying the Pope that they summoned him twise or thrise to present himselfe with his cardinals at Basill chosen by Pope Martin as a fit place to keepe the councell in otherwise they would proceed against him as a transgressor and wilfull refuser Eugenius troubled with this message confirmeth the councell of Basill with his Apostolike letters licencing all men to go to the councell Phi. I graunt they resisted Eugenius but I doubt of the Councell whether it were lawfull or no. Theo. Will you trust Eugenius himselfe Phi. If he say the word Theo. Thus he saith Not long since for certaine causes expressed in our letters and by the consent and aduise of our brethren the cardinalles of the church of Rome we dissolued the sacred general councell of Basill lawfully begun by the decrees of the generall councels of Constance and Senes by commission from Martin the fift likewise from vs. Mary seeing great dissention hath risen greater may rise by the saide dissolution wee determine declare that the foresaid generall councel of Basill from the first beginning of it was is lawfully continued alwaies hath yet doth ought to dure as if no dissolution had bin made And that our affection and integritie to the sacred generall councell of Basill may plainly appeare whatsoeuer hath beene done attempted or alleadged by vs or in our name to the preiudice or derogation of the sacred generall councell of Basill we vndoe reuoke frustrate and annihilate If this be enough Nicolaus the 5. that came next after Eugenius vpon the composing of the schisme betweene the Councell and the Pope gaue out a generall Bull for the confirmation of all their doinges without exception Omnia singula tam iustitiam quà m gratiam concernentia per ipsum tunc Basiliense Concilium qualitercunque facta gesta concessa data disposita ordinata cuiuscunque naturae existant motu proprio ex certa scientia de Apostolicae potestatis plenitudine de consilio assensu venerabilium fratrum nostrorum sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinaliū praesentium serie approbamus ratificamus etiā confirmamus rataque firma haberi volumus All euery thing that concerneth either fauor or iustice done deuised granted giuen disposed ordred by the coūcel of Basil of what nature soeuer we of our own motiō certain knowlege by the fulnesse of our Apostolike power and with the assent and aduise of our brethren the Cardinals of the holy church of Rome allow ratifie and confirme by the tenor of these presents and will haue to stand sure and firme So that the Councell of Basill hath ill lucke if after all these buls it bee not both a lawfull and generall Councell Phi. The Bishops of Rome that came after neuer liked the Councell of Basill but we will not striue for that we shall see what you will inferre Theo. No newes for Popes to mislike that which pared their ambition and hindered their gaine as the Councell of Basill did but can you or they denie that the Councell was orderly called Phi. I do not stand so much on that Theo. Then I conclude that a Councell may lawfully resist commaund correct and depose the Pope for so did the late Councels of Pisa Constance and Basill which your Church then helde for sacred and ecumenicall both determine in wordes and practise in deedes You must confute or confesse this illation Phi. I haue saide what I coulde and all will not helpe The Councels you proue to be generall and I see they not onely resisted and deposed Popes but also concluded it lawfull for them so to do Theo. Then you confesse they did and might resist the Pope Phi. Councels I graunt might and did but not others Theo. Why may not others do the like Phi. They must rather obey than resist Theo. We dispute not as yet whether it be lawfull or no for euery man to resist the Pope the cause being iust and when that commeth in question you must shewe good and apparent reason why they may not that which I first auouched was this your owne Cardinales and Councels your owne friendes and fellowes which you may not count schismatikes and heretikes haue stoutly resisted him and restrained and limited his dominion euen in the middest of his pride and ioylitie For Councels I haue saide sufficient Now for others The famous Uniuersitie of Paris which I thinke you will not condemne and the whole kingdom of Fraunce haue often times opposed them-selues against the Pope and withdrawne their obedience from him in part or in all as occasion required Phi. For some monie matters it may be they withstood his Collectors and Officers Theo. The Diuines of Paris openly confuted the conclusions and articles of Iohn the 22. touching the beholding and seeing of God and gate the same to be condemned before the king of Fraunce with the sound of trumpets as Gerson reporteth By this saith he appeareth the falsitie of Pope Iohns doctrine which was condemned with the sound of trumpets before Philip king of Fraunce by the Diuines of Paris and the king beleeued the Diuines of Paris before the Popes court And Ioannes Marius Iohn the second Pope that sate at Auinion fell into suspition of heresie For he taught and defended certaine articles touching the sight and vision of God which the Diuines of Fraunce king Philip taking their part very freely contradicted The yeare before the Councell of Pisa which I last spake of was gathered when Benedict the 13. would yeeld to no reason for ending the schisme between him Gregory the 12. Charles the French king with the aduise of the Bishops Princes and Vniuersities of his Realme caused himselfe to bee proclaimed adherent or obedient to neither of the twaine by them all it was decreed that the whole Church of Fraunce should depart from the obedience of Benedict and by the authoritie of this Councell all the French Cardinals forsooke him When the Councell of Basill was ended the Germans the king of France the king of England the Prince of Millan others fauored the same with all their power neglecting Eugenius authoritie then sitting in the Councel of Florence and the rather to giue it full force and effect in the kingdome of Fraunce Charles the 7. in a Parliament at Burdeuz made a law called the Pragmaticall sanction for the perpetuall obseruation of those thinges which the Councell of Basill had decreed And this law the Bishops of Fraunce and Schole of Paris defended and followed almost an hundred yeares in spite of al that Pius the 2. Sixtus the 4. Innocentius the 8. and other Bishops of Rome could do to the contrarie Phi. Did the Bishops of Rome labour
faire king of France also did before him put the Pope to the worse Phi. What did he Theo. He not only contemned the Popes Buls curses but clapt his Legat by the heels sequestred himselfe his whole realm from his obedience at length caught the Popes own person kept him in prison til he died Phi. Durst he be so bold with his holines Theo. How bold the king of France was a frier as you bee shal tel you Bonifacius the 8. minding to send an armie to Hierusalem hoping to get Philip of France to furder the matter sent the Bishop of Apamea to the king who when he perceiued he could do no good began to threaten king Philip that he should be depriued of his crown if he did not satisfie the Popes request was therfore by the commādement of the king cast in prison Which done Bonifacius a mā aboue measure arrogāt pretending that Philip had violated the law of natiōs would needs be reuēged sending the Archdeacon of Narbon into Frāce forbiddeth Philip to take any more of the church reuenues wheras before the king that Bonifacius could suffer had one yeares fruit of euery vacāt church which we cal the kings due farther he denoūceth that the crown of Frāce is deuolued to the church of Rome by Philips cōtumacy adding that if Philip refused this he would pronoūce both him those that fauored him heretikes moreouer he appointed the bishops certain Abbats with the diuines Canonists a day to appeare before him at Rome withal declareth the charters grāts bestowed on the Frēch by the bishop of Rome to be void This message done by the Archdeacō with pride enough Philip set the Bishop which was kept in ward for his lewd wordes at libertie and charged him with speede to depart the Realme the next spring the Prince gathered an assembly at Paris rehearsing the iniuries that he had receiued at Bonifacius hands asked first the Bishops of whō they held their lands reuenewes then turning himselfe to the Nobles you my Lords saith he whom do you take for your king ruler both answering without staie that they helde inioyed all those things by his Princely lawes but saith the king Bonifacius so dealeth as if you the whole Realme of Fraunce were subiect to his See For the Empire of the Almanes which he thrise denied Albert hath he now giuen him and also the kingdom of Fraunce But we thanking you for your fidelitie good will trusting to your helpe doe promise to defende the libertie of our Lande The Councell risen the king by open Proclamation forbad all men to carrie gold siluer or any other thing out of his Realme a paine set for the breakers of this Edict besides watch ward was appointed at euery passage port to apprehend those that came in or went out of his Countrie And not long after a second Councell of Bishops and Nobles were assembled at Paris where they discussed Bonifacius claime to the kingdom of Fraunce the Fathers affirming that Bonifacius was vnworthie to be Bishop for that he was an homicide and an heretike whereof they had witnesses present Therefore with one consent they concluded that Bonifacius ought not to be obeyed vnlesse he first cleared himselfe of that he was charged with After this king Philip taking the pride of Bonifacius in very ill part sent some to intimate his appeale against the iniuries of Bonifacius who belike meaning to gratifie the king caught the Pope in his fathers house at Anagnia whēce the proud Prelate was led to Rome cast in prison where within foure twentie daies he ended his life either by violence or else for griefe of hart Thus died Bonifacius like a dogge that went about to strike a terrour into Emperors Kings Princes Countries Commonwealthes rather than any religion which assaied to giue kingdoms take them away to aduance men and pull them downe at his pleasure Wherefore it was truely saide of him he entered like a Foxe craftily liued like a Lion furiously died like a dogge shamefully Phi. This is but one mans iudgement Theo. Yet a man of your owne side and if our English Monkes do not deceiue vs it was the prophesie of Caelestinus his predecessor who sayd to him Thou hast entered like a Foxe thou wilt raigne like a Lion shalt die like a dogge but the truth of the storie is it that I seeke for and that in effect a few circumstances altered is confessed by the best of your writers and this they adde which I would haue you marke that the king not only withdrew his obedience from the Pope but also restrayned his subiectes from sending or going to Rome So Sabellicus Philip offended with Bonifacius by open Edict forbad all French men to go to Rome or to send any mony thither So Platina The king meaning in part to reuēge the wrōgs which the Pope had done him made a law that none of his Realme should go to Rome or send mony thither So Paulus AEmylius The Bishops and prelats of France were commaunded by Bonifacius to appeare at Rome by a certaine day The king suffered no man to depart out of Fraunce which you thinke much her Maiestie should at this present in a far better cause commaund within her dominions Phi. One Swallow maketh no summer Theo. One such Sommer is able to mar the Popes haruest but herein the king of France is not alone the kings of England haue done the like Phi. Which of them Theo. I could easily name them but I need not The ancient Lawes Liberties of this Realm permit no man to go out of this land nor appeale to Rome without the kings consent Phi. Uery ancient I promise you those lawes were first made by king Henrie the 8. about fiftie yeares since Is not that great antiquitie Theo. The lawes that I speake of are 500 yeares old and were in full force vnder William Rufus and Henrie the 1. the Sonnes of William the Conquerer Phi. Did they restraine their subiectes from going to Rome Theo. Whether they did or no iudge you When Anselmus Archbishop of Canterbury asked leaue of William Rufus to go to Rome the king replied that no Archbishop nor Bishop of his realm should be subiect to the Pope or court of Rome especially since hee had all those liberties in his kingdom which the Emperour had in the Empire And for this cause was Anselmus conuented by the king as an offendour against the State And to this accusation did the most of the Bishops except the Bishop of Rochester giue their consentes And for that he ventered ouer the Seas to Rome without leaue All his goods cattels were seased to the kings vse all his actes proceedings in the Church of England reuersed himselfe constrained to liue in banishmēt during the life of king
and Bishops that were called by the king for this purpose without conuiction or confession of his gaue iudgement against him alleaging and protesting the priuilege of himselfe his church The Archbishop driuen to this extremity and forsaken of al the rest of the Bishops hoysed the crosse which he held in his hand aloft marched away frō the kings court in the eyes of thē al the next night stale frō the place gate him ouer to Flaūders so to the Pope He brake the oth which he took for the keeping of the foresaid lawes liberties of the crown he claimed a freedom for theeues murderers y◠they should not be subiect to the princes power he refused the kings court appealed to the pope for a matter of debt lest he shuld rēder an accoūt of his tēporal office whiles he was Chācelor which of these three points cā you now with learning or honestie defend Phi. The liberty of the holy Church is a iust good quarell for a man to die in Theo. If you meane thereby an impunitie for mutherers such like offendors then is it a most wicked and irreligious part for a Bishop to open his mouth for such libertie much more to resist his Prince for that quarrell Phi. His quarrel was better than so Theo. Neubrigensis a man of that age and one that honored the person and praised the zeale of Th. Becket reporteth thus of the quarell betweene the king him The king saith he was aduertised by his Iudges that many crimes were committed by clergie mē against the lawes of his Realm as thefts roberies murders In so much that in his audiēce it was they say declared that more than an hundred murders were done in England by clergie men in the time of his raigne Wherefore the king very much kindled in a vehement spirit made lawes against malefactors of the clergie which hee thought to make the stronger by the cōsent of the Bishops Calling therefore the Bishoppes togither hee so plied them what with faire meanes what with foule that they al saue one thought it best to yeeld and obey the kings will and set their seales to those new statutes I say all saue one for the Archbishop of Canterburie would not bow but stood immoueable Whereupon the king began to be greatly offended with him and seeking all occasions to resist him called him to account for those things which he had done before as Chauncellour of the Realme Now must you shewe that by Gods lawes theeues and homicides if they be clerks may not be punished by the princes sword or if you dare not plead that in these dayes for very shame then must you grant that your Canterbury saint resisting his Prince where he should not was an Archrebell against God and the Magistrate one of these twaine you must needes choose Phi. We shal digresse too far if we discusse these things in this place Theo. Your stomake I see doth not serue you at this present wee shall haue some other oportunitie to debate the same in the meane time learne what lawes king Hērie the 2. enacted executed in spite of your holy father his deuout chaplin The king at the returne of his Legates perceiuing his request for the confirmation of his ancient liberties to be repelled by the Pope not a little offended therewith wrote letters to all his Shirifes Lieutenants in England on this wise I command you that if any clergie man or lay men in your coūtie appeale to the court of Rome you attach him hold him in fast ward till our pleasure be known And to his Iudges in this sort If any man be foūd to bring letters or mandate from the Pope or from Thomas the Archbishop interdicting the Realme of England let him be taken and kept in prison till I send word what shal be done with him The four that wrate the life extol the facts of Th. Becket ad to this law Let him be streightway apprehended for a traitor execution done vpon him Also let no clerk monk canon or other religious person go ouer the Seas without letters of pasport frō vs of our officer if any venture otherwise let him be taken cast into prison Let no man appeale to the Pope or to Th. the Archbishop neither let any suite surcease at their cōmandement If any Bishop Abbot Clerk or lay man shal obserue their sentence interdicting our Land presently let him bee banished the Realme and all his kindred with him and their goods and landes confiscated Let the Bishops of London and Norwich bee summoned to appeare before our Iustices and there to answere for interdicting the Land and excommunicating the person of Earle Hugh contrarie to the Statutes of our Realm Thus far the valiant worthie Prince went in defending his Lawes liberties against the Bishop of Rome how far hee would haue gone but that the time was not yet come when God would deliuer his Church from the yoke of Antichrist appeareth by an Epistle of his written to the Archbishop of Cullain in these wordes I haue long desired to finde a iust occasion to depart from Pope Alexander and his persidious cardinals which presume to maintaine my traytour Thomas of Canterbury against me whereupon by the aduise of my Barons cleargie I meane to send the Archbishop of Yorke the bishop of London the Archdeacon of Poictiers c. to Rome which shall publikely denounce plainly propose this on my behalfe and all the Dominions I haue to Pope Alexander and his cardinals that they maintaine my traytour no longer but rid me of him that I with the aduise of my cleargie may set an other in the church of Canterburie They shall also require them to frustrate all that Becket had done and exact an oth of the Pope that he and his successors as much as in them lieth shall keepe and conserue inuiolable to me and all mine for euer the Royal customs of king Henrie my grandfather If they refuse any of these my demands neither I nor my Barons nor my clergie will yeeld them any kinde of obedience any longer yea rather we will openly impugne the Pope and all his and whosoeuer in my Lande shal be founde hereafter to sticke to the Pope shal be banished my Realme Phi. The king made amends for all when the Archbishop was slaine renoūcing the liberties which he striued for so long and honoring him as a Martyr whom before he pursued as a traitor Theo. The manifold deuises practises of the late Bishops of Rome God so punishing the dulnesse and discorde of Princes neglecting his truth and enuying one an other haue weakened and wearied very many both kings and Emperours partly with a false perswasion of religion partly with a number of fayned miracles but chiefly by drawing their subiectes from them and setting other nations vpon them yea by stirring and arming their owne
blood and bowels against them And therefore no maruaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse when the king of Fraunce the Earle of Flaunders the king of Scots the yong king his sonne and two other of his children the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine cōspired against him but it is euident that frō the conquest till the time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme Phi. Did the Pope procure him these enemies Theo. What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope though the stories in this place do not confesse yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Father his blessed adherents in those daies specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie whom for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies secret defection of subiects that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks binding himself his heires for euer to do the like homage fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs bishops that before toke the Popes part against the king that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies curses they chose them an other king chased king Iohn the Popes farmour from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise But this I omit because the quarel touched the right title to the crown I medle only with those resistances which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical Phi. I trust they were not many Theo. For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent now shall you see what they which came after did When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices other ecclesiastical promotions wtin this realm enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in the kings courts or brought from Rome any Bul writing or instrumēt to those other like effects Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome vnderstanding therof was very earnest against it protesting this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ to abolish religion to subuert right reason infringe al coūcels speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law A schisme rising not long after in the church of Rome there was not a Pope that had any care of this til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt letters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one the same answer which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt that shortly one should be called to that end which neuer after was performed Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept put in vre but increased the terror of it with a rigorous punishmēt which is that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt This writer an Italian born a man wedded to the See of Rome confesseth the Popes authority was abated restrained by the lawes of this Realm in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after that not only the Popes letters were twise refused but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme Phi. Perhaps they wtstood him for tēporal matters Theo. The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual to wit electiōs of Bishops gifts of benefices procedings in other causes tending as the cōmplaint of Gregory teacheth you to the diuision of the church extirpation of religion subuersion of al councels which you may not thinke to be temporall matters And this resistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at in the daies of king Edward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land Phi. So did none of his progenitors before him Theo. It may be they wēt not so far as he did but as Polydor writeth R. Rich. the 2. wēt fairly towards it In a Parliament held the 14. yeare of his raigne the king his princes were of opinion that it would be very good for the realme of England if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea that is excluded out of this lād for that many wer daily vexed for causes which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him If any mā brake this law the pain apointed was he should lose al he had ly in prison during his life And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow the statute of prouisiō premunire the parliamēt held in the 13. year of Rich. the 2. for the better establishing surer executing of the law made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul or other proces frō Rome to impugn the same These be the words Itē it is ordained established that if any mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be for the cause of making motiō assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors or premunire he shal be takē arested put in prison forfeit al his lands tenements goods catle for euer moreouer incur the pain of life mēber So the kingdoms cōmonwelths as wel as councels of al others Frāce England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror tyrany P. You shew they did it but you do not shew they did wel in it Th. I need not you must shew they did il The prince by gods ordināce beareth the sword not the pope therfore the presumption lieth for the prince against the pope til you proue the cōtrary besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him why may not princes in their parliamēts
do the like Thirdly since the Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him And last of al if you forget not your self my promise was to shew that not in the primatiue Church only when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes but in latter times when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all he was controled resisted by those Councels Common-wealthes which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall Phi. In some thinges they withstood him but not in all thinges as you doe Theo. That shift is litle worth If resistāce be lawful in part why not in al whē iust cause requireth Phi. In matters of faith they neuer resisted Theo. That maketh our resistāce the more lawful They withstood him for an earthly policy we for Christes glorie they for externall discipline we for Apostolicall doctrine Therefore if they might lawfully resist much more may we But my demand is onely whether you see that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church so many Councels Countries Princes Prelats withstood him as the places which I bring conuince Phi. What if they did Theo. First did they that which I speake or no Phi. Grant they did Theo. Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall so did others resist him and our examples inferre against you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infallible iudgement which he now claimeth you now yeeld to flatter him with Phi. They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour Theo. How they tooke him in latter ages it greatly skilleth not the learned and ancient Fathers call him Peters successor Christes Uicar they neuer call him And graunt he be Peters successor that importeth no supremacie Phi. Doth it not Theo. No mary doth it not You must first proue that Peter was supreme gouernour of all the Church which you shall neuer do Next you must proue that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person but common to Peters successour which we denie For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made not in respect of the place which he should inioy Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge that is why Rome rather than Antioch These three points when you iustly proue we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles in the meane time till occasion serue to make farther triall you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie which if it be like this it will do your friendes litle good and your foes lesse hurt Phi. You disgrace that which you can not disproue Theo. Wee neede no better disproofe than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent discourses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adherentes aboue the skies Phi. Where do we so Theo. Almost in euerie leafe For example this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father praising his deuout citie The next hath nothing else but the commendation of your selues your Seminaries as if the proclaiming of his your vertues were the chiefest point of his and your faith Phi. You say not well we do not so Theo. Reade the places you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned wise vertuous of all the most famous Vniuersities Monasteries Societies and Celleges through the world is recuiled as to a continuall mar◠of all kinde of doctrine prudence And againe These and such other high experiments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institution giue to our Countrimen vnder the famousest teachers gouernours of youth in our age or som worlds before Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home the cause of al error ignorāce Ar you not liberal in praising your selues Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines preachers of Englād as if not a fewe wandring friers craking Iesuites but some new Cyprians or famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie But let passe your follies come to your autorities To what end aleage you S. Hierō Phi. S. Hierom calleth Rome the place of greatest faith and deuotion Theo. What then Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet Niniueth was spared for her true repentance afterward plagued for her robberies and lies What Rome was then doeth no way proue what Rome is now You must send vs better reasons from Rome for Rome before you shall perswade vs that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate your conclusiō halteth though his wordes goe right Phi. That change you must proue Theo. Alas good Sirs begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed Reade your owne Friers Monkes and Abbots and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt Frier Mantuan sayth shortly but truely Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum You that wish to liue godly depart from Rome al things are there suffred saue godlines Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons euery where toucheth the vertues of the church of Rome saith they were known to the verie miscreants For when y◠Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome sayd Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes there they find a poysoned pudle And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased confounding right and wrong that without shame as a common impudent harlot she lay open for money to euery man counting vsurie for a small fault and Symonie for none But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis and that not priuily behind their backs but openly to their faces forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands Quid tam notum seculis quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum Gens insueta paci tumultui assueta Gens immitis intractabilis vsque ad huc subdi nescia nisi cum non valet resistere Experire paucis nouerim ne ego gentis mores Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala bonum autem facere nesciunt Impij in deum temerarij in sancta seditiosi in inuicem emuli in vicinos inhumani in extraneos Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt praeesse non norunt superioribus infideles inferioribus importabiles inuericundi ad petendum ad negandum frontosi
Importuni vt accipiant inquieti donec accipiant ingrati vbi acceperint Docuerunt linguam suam grandia loqui cum operentur exigua largissimi promissores parcissimi exhibitores blandissimi adulatores mordacissimi detractores simplicissimi dissimulatores malignissimi proditores What hath been so famous for many yeres as the frowardnes and hautines of the Romanes A nation not acquainted with peace accustomed to tumults A nation fierce intractable to this day not able to be ruled but when it cannot resist Listen a while whether I knowe the manners of that people or no. The Romanes are wise to do euill good they know not how to do Irreligious toward God presumpteous against holy things seditious among thēselues enuious to their neighbours vncurteous to strangers They wil neither obey nor can tel how to rule vnfaithfull to their superiours vntolerable to their inferiours shameles to aske bold to denie Importune to haue vnquiet til they haue vnthākful when they haue great speakers litle doers Most liberal to promise most loth to performe most sweet to flatter most bitter to backbite most curious dissēblers most mischieuous traitors Lupi sunt c. They bee wolues not sheepe of such art thou shepheard If I durst speake all they be rather pastures of diuels than sheepe Phi. If this be true they be changed in deed Theo. The truth thereof you may not wel doubt vnlesse you wil now returne him for a liar whom Alexander the 3. 400. yeres since did canonize for a saint but wil you stand to his iudgemēt whose name you pretēd Phi. What els Theo. Thē gaine you litle for the cōmendation of Rome For Hierom doth attribute no more to the Romanes than Paul doth to the Iewes which is to be naturally zealous And this as in true religiō we compt it praise worthie so whē error preuaileth nothing is more pestilent Again this one vertue of theirs is by by requited in the very same place with two shrewd vices Rursus facilitatis superbiae arguuntur Paul noteth the Romanes saith he to be proud of nature easily seduced What els he found in thē what he thought of thē you shal soone perceiue if you list to beleeue him Narrant historiae tam gracae quālatinae nihil Iudaeorū Romanorū gente esse auarius The stories both greek Latine confesse none to bee more couetous than the Iewes the Romanes Difficile est in maledica ciuitate non aliquā sinistri rumoris fabulā contrahere It is an hard matter in this slanderous citie of Rome to be free from il tongues Nullane fuit alia in toto orbe prouincia quae reciperet praeconiū voluptatis nisi quam Petri doctrina super Petrāfūdauerat Christū Was there neuer an other place in al the world to receiue this voluptuous doctrine but that which Peters preaching had built on the rock christ Cum babilone versarer purpuratae meretricis esse colonus iure Quiritū viuerē ecce olla illa quae in Hieremia cernitur a facie Aquilonis cepit ardere Pharisaeorū conclamauit Senatus omnis quasi indicto sibi praelio doctrinarū aduersū me imperitiae factiō coniurauit Whiles I staied at Babilon was an inhabitant of that purple whore liued amongst the Romanes beholde the pot which was seene in Hieremie frō the North began to seeth the Senate of Pharisees made an vprore the whole faction of rude ignorant as it were in defiance of learning conspired against me He y◠saith the Romans be zealous addeth also that they be couetous enuious luxurious proud pharises Lay your one vertue to these foure vices which Hierom saw growing and Bernarde found ripe at Rome and tell vs what you get by this accompt With as great discretion you cite the words of S. August S. Cypriā for the praise of the see of Rome drawing S. Augustins words frō their true meaning corrupting in Cyprian both the saying the sense For S. Aug. saith Heretikes barke in vaine at the church not of Rome but of Christ. And Cyprian meaneth himself not that bishop of Rome whē he saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositu persequitur vt gubernatore sublato atrocius atque violentius circa ecclesiae naufragia grassetur The aduersarie for this cause persueth the bishop of the church that the gouernor being made out of the way the shipwrack of the church may follow with the greater mischief violence Other words in y◠epistle which you quote there be none these differ much from the words which you alleage They baul against the Pastor the sooner to sease vpon the flocke as Cypriā speaketh And so with three maymed and miswrested authorities you close vp the loosenes of your secōd chapter Phi. S. Aug. surely meaneth the see of Rome whē he saith Quae ab Apostolica sedeper successiones Episcoporū frustra circūlatrantibus haerelicis culmen autoritatis obtinuit Which frō the Apostolik See by successiōs of bishops heretiks barking roūd about in vaine hath obtained the highest authority Theo. Meane what you wil by Apostolike See the word frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus heretikes barking on euery side in vaine must be referred either to the chiefest or els to the nearest substātiue in the sentēce Sedes apostolica is neither The chiefest substātiue is the catholike church the nearest is the successiōs of bishops on one side the heigth of authoritie on the other side For thus saith Aust. Shal we dout to cōmit our selues to the bosome of that catholike church which by the confessiō of al mē frō the Apostles seate or time by many successiōs of bishops heretiks barking on euery side in vaine hath gotten the chiefest credite or authoritie By this assertiō heretikes did bark in vaine either at the catholike church it selfe or at the successiōs of bishops or at the credite authoritie which the Church of Christ had by the confessiō of al mē But that they did bark in vaine at the see of Rome I find no such thing in these words of Aust. Phi. The church receiued her authoritie frō the Apostolik See which is Rome Theo. The phrase ab ipsa Petri sede frō Peters seate which is vsual in S. Aust. more effectual thē this doth not signifie frō Rome but from Peters seat As Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede Nūber the priests not frō Rome but frō Peters seate that is frō Peters time And again Tenet me ab ipsa Petri sede successio sacerdotū The succession of priests frō Peters time staieth me in the church And likewise in this place Ab apostolica sede frō the apostles seat is euer since the apostle sate that the words following confirme For in Rome you can recken but one successiō of bishops Austē saith Ab apostolica sede per successiones Episcoporū by many successions
of bishops euen froÌ„ the apostles time So that neither the words which you alleage should be referred to Sedes Apostolica the apostolike seate nor if they were doth yâ— phrase infer yâ— the church had al her credite froÌ„ Rome but yâ— by the confessioÌ„ of al men the catholike Church had bene in greatest credite euer since the time that Peter sate through the successions of her bishops heretiks barking against her in vain Phi. You said there was nothing in our secoÌ„d chapter worth answering it hath cost you more paines theÌ„ you thought Theo. Your general dissolute discourses I told you were to litle purpose For grant that some godly men resorted to Rome whiles the bishop there was equal with his brethren obedieÌ„t to the magistrate which is all that you proue what doth this help you to coÌ„clude that you may now runne to Rome the Pope clayming and vsurping a newe founde power repugnant to the scriptures iniurious to the Church of Christ and pernitious to the Prince whom God hath annoynted ouer you Phi. The Pope claymeth no such power as you speake of Theo. What power he claimeth vseth ouer princes is too wel knowen for you to denie The worlde hath had long experience of it this Realme hath had late What authoritie he chalengeth ouer the Church of Christ if he did keepe secret you doe not You make him the rocke of refuge in doubtful daies doctrines the chiefe pastor Bishop of your soules in earth The vicar generall of Christ and he that taketh these titles to himselfe without alowance from God is an enemie to Christ oppresseth his Church Phi. God hath allowed the Bishop of Rome that power which he claymeth Theo. That if you could proue the matter were answered that til you do proue your popular perswasions are as I said but lip-labour and no way concerne the cause Phi. That is shal be proued Theo. Neuer feede vs with shales you neuer were nor euer shall be able to proue it Phi. Suspend your iudgement till you see the end Theo. I am content to heare all mary in the meane time you may not presume that which is but lightly touched by you to be clerely proued Phi. We wil not Theo. By that which you haue done I gesse what you wil do We haue discussed two chapters of your Apology where we found nothing but words And therefore vnlesse you drawe to some matter I see no reason why I should stand refelling your phrases Phi. The thirde chapter goeth neerer Theo. In your third chapter what shall we find Phi. The meaning purpose why both our Seminaries were erected Theo. Your owne purposes you can best tell Phi. First to draw diuers youth who for their conscience liued in the lowe Countries from sole seueral voluntarie studie to a more exact methode course of common conference publike exercise to be pursued by their superiours appointment rather than their own choyse Secondly doubting the time of our chastisement might be so long as to weare out either by age imprisonment or other miseries the elder sort of the learned Catholikes both at home and abroad it was thought a necessarie duetie for thâ— posteritie to prouide for a perpetual seed supplie of Catholikes namely of the Clergie Thirdly their purpose was to draw vnto this College the best wits out of England that were either Catholikely bent or desirous of more exact educatioÌ„ than is in these daies in either of the vniuersities where through the delicacie of that sect there is no Art holy or prophane throughly studied some not touched at al or that had scruple of coÌ„scieÌ„ce to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie in causes ecclesiastical or that misliked to be forced to the Ministerie as the vse is in diuers Colleges a calling contemptible euen in their own conceipt very damnable in the iudgement of others or that were doutful whether of the two religions were true which hath driueÌ„ diuers ouer to their great satisfaction admiration of the euidence of our part These were the chiefe respects that led his holines to found our two Seminaries the fruits wherof we haue seene to our great comfort Theo. And this I see you keep your old wont You affirme what you list vpon your own credite disdaining your aduersaries as prophane vnlearned you coÌ„mend your selues for the onely minions of the world set this aside and what one thing is there in your third chapter worth the speaking to Phi. You mislike that Seminaries were appointed for English Students beyond the seas We now proue the first erection of them to be needful healthfull for this realme Theo. Sir your liege Ladie misliked and had good cause so to doe that her subiects were â—locked from her encouraged against her by your practises promises that her open and sworne enemie kept them in couerts which you cal Seminaries and trayned them vp at his charges to bee fit instruments for his secret deuises and purposes Of this you speake not a word but arrogantly defacing both Uniuersities with loosenes of life slackenes of studie you come in with your exact education holy conuersation as if the report of your owne vertues from your owne mouthes were enough to auoyd and preuent al obiections Phi. That answere might serue where nothing was proued but only surmised against vs. Theo. You forget that a Prince did obiect it to whom you were bound with all reuerence and duetie to make your ful and sufficient answere Phi. So haue we done Theo. Mary that you haue in deede The things misliked were these First that by your meanes yong boyes were prouoked and allured to forsake their parents vnstable wittes their Studies subiects their Prince without asking leaue no tyrannie nor torment inflicted or offered to cause them to flie Next that your seminaries as well for their direction as prouision do wholy depend on his pleasure fauour that hath euer since the beginning professed shewed himselfe a mortal enemie to your soueraigne deposing her Person inuading her land and pulling her subiects from her obedience Thirdly that your teachers learners in either of your colleges do not only nourish this trayterous position in their own brests that her highnesse neither is nor ought to bee taken for lawfull Queene of England longer than the Pope shall permit but also labour to poyson her people with that diuelish perswasion vnder colour of religion These points your Patrone cunningly skippeth and falleth to the coÌ„mending and preferring the maners orders vertues of your two Colleges before our two vniuersities which comparison is neither seemely to be published nor easie to be credited Phi. Concerning his holinesse intentions if they be any other in the institution entertainement of those Seminaries than ours are they by vnknowen to vs none being so presumptuous to search further into his secrets than standeth with his good
it seeketh not to bee kept secrete A rotten contagion creepeth at this day through the whole body of the Church the wyder the desperater the more inward the more deadly All friends al enemies al familiar none peacemakers they be the ministers of Christ serue Antichrist TheÌ„ce is it as thou maist dayly see that they be trimmed like whoores attired like plaiers serued like Princes Thence is it that they wear gold in their bridles sadles spurs yea their spurs shine brighter than the Altars thence are their bankets drunkennes thence their musike instrumeÌ„ts thence their wine presses running ouer stoarehouses stuffed with all varietie thence their barrels of oyntments to paint theÌ„selues thence their bags bugets full For these things are they seek they to be rulers of churches Deanes Archdeacons Bishops Archbishops The wound of the Church is inward incurable Rest froÌ„ infidels rest froÌ„ heretikes but not from children They haue despised defiled her with their filthie life with their filthie gain with their filthie trade Ye be called Pastors when in deed ye be spoylers and woulde God the milke fleese did suffice ye ye thirst for blood The Archpriest visiteth his charge to fil his purse he betraieth innocent blood he selleth murders adultries incests fornications â—acrileges periuries filleth his pouch to the brim And as for the ornament of chastitie how keep they that which being deliuered into a reprobate sense do that which is not fit It is a shame to name those things which the bishops do in secrete But why should I be ashamed to speak that which they are not ashamed to do Yea the Apostle is not ashamed to write meÌ„ vpon meÌ„ work filthines receiuing the reward of their error With the patrimony of the crosse of Christ you feede whores in your chambers you fat your flesh you furnish your horses with pectorals headstals of golde For this you claw Princes and Powers of darkenes both men and diuels Hee that list to reade more of your scandals may in that place whence this is taken haue enough Albertus Magnus of his time giueth this testimonie Those which now rule in the Church be for the most part theeues murderers rather oppressors than feeders rather spoilers than tutors rather killers than keepers rather peruerters than teachers rather seducers than leaders These be the messengers of Antichrist and vnderminers of the flocke of Christ. The tripartite worke that standeth next to the Councel of Lateran vnder Innocentius the 3. long since complained of your Clergie in this sort So great is the notorious vncleannes of lecherie in many partes of the worlde not in clerks only but in Priests also that which is horrible to heare in the prelates theÌ„selues Again they spend the goods of the Church so badly in vanities superfluities setting vp aduancing their kinsmen and in many other riots sinnes yea there is such a number those no smale ones that do no good in the church but spend their daies in pleasures by reasoÌ„ of the wealth of the church that it is much to be feared least God for these other haynous offences of the clergie passing great very many now inueterate do ouerthrowe or cause the ecclesiastical state to bee ouerthrowen as it came to passe in the Iewes first exalted by God and after destroyed for euer Holcot 20. yeres since The Priests of our age sayth he be like the Priestes of Baal they are wicked Angels they resemble the Priestes of Dagon they are Priestes of Priapus and Angels of hell And lest you should dreame that nearer our time your Clergie began to bee better reformed Platina saith What shall we thinke will become of our age wherein our vices are growen to that heighth that they skant haue left vs place with God for mercie How great the couetousnes of priests is especially of the rulers amoÌ„g theÌ„ how great their lecherie of al sorts how great their ambition pompe how great their pride slouth howe grosse their ignorance both of theÌ„selues of christian doctrine how smal their deuotioÌ„ that rather fained than true how corrupt their maners I neede not speak Frier Mantuan not long after him in that point agreeth with him Petrique domus polluta fluenti Marcescit luxu nulla hic arcana reuelo Non ignota loquor liceat vulgata referre Sic vrbes populique ferunt ea fama per omnem Iam vetus Europam mores extirpat honestâ—s Sanctus ager scurris venerabilis ara Cynedis Seruit honorandae diuum Ganimedibus edes Quid miramur opes recidiuaque surgere tecta Venalia nobis Templa sacerdotes altaria sacra coronae Ignes thura preces celum est venale deusque The house of Peter defiled with excessiue riote is quite decayed I reueale here no secrets neither speak I things vnknown I may vtter that which is in euery mans mouth Cities Countries talke of it the very bruite thereof scatered loÌ„g since ouer al Europe hath queÌ„ched al care of vertue The church lands are giuen to coÌ„mon Iesters the sacred altar allotted to wantons the temples of saints to boyes prouided for filthie lust Why wonder wee to see wealth flow and houses that were fallen to be stately built We sell temples Priests Altars sacrifices garlands fier frankensense prayers wee sell heauen and God himselfe Of your Priests he sayth Inuisi superis faedaque libidine olentes Heu frustra incestis iterant sacra orgia dextris Irritant irasque mouent non numina flectunt Nil adiutoribus istis Auxilij sperate nouis date templa ministris Sacrilegum genus ex adytis templisque Deorum Pellite nec longos scelera haec vertantur in vsus Hateful to heauen lothsome with vncleane lust alas in vaine attempt they sacred rites with incestuous hands They rather kindle and prouoke God than appease him neuer hope for help as long as such pray for you giue the Churches to new ministers and chase this sacriligious generation from the diuine places neither let their haynous sinnes grow to a custome By him wee may learne what fruits to looke for of your Romish Seminarie Heu Romae nunc sola pecunia regnat Exilium virtus patitur Vrbs est iam tota lupanar Roma quid insanis toties quid sanguine gaudes Quid geris imbelli spicula tanta manu Si foris arma tacent tu bella domestica tentas Nec feritas requiem ferre superba potest Tu fratres in bella vocas in pignora patres Et scelus omne audes paris omne nefas Fas iura negas homines numina fallis Nec Iouis imperium nec Phlegethonta times Alas at Rome now nothing but money doth raign vertue is quite banished the whole Citie is a stewes Rome why art thou so often mad why delightest thou in blood Why with weake hands dost
and other places at this day do wee not indure all the tormentes you can deuise because wee will not beleeue what temporall Lordes and Masters list Your owne conscience knoweth it is true that wee saie Why then doe you charge vs with this wicked assertion from the which wee bee farther off than you For you holde opinion of Popes that they cannot erre we do not of Princes Why do you father your owne fansies vppon vs Why d ee you purposely peruert the question heaping absurdities and alleaging authorities against that which we do not defend Phi. The oth which you take your selues and exact of others induceth vs thus to thinke of you For there you make Princes the onely supreme Gouernours of all persons in all causes as well spirituall as temporall vtterly renouncing all forraine iurisdictions superiorities and authorities Uppon which wordes marke what an horrible confusion of all faith and Religion insueth If Princes bee the onely Gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters then in vaine did the holy Ghost appoint Pastours and Bishops to gouern the Church If they bee supreme then are they superiour to Christ himselfe and in effect Christes Masters If in all thinges and causes spirituall then they may prescribe to the priestes and Bishops what to preach which way to worship and serue God how in what forme to minister the Sacramentes and generally howe men shall be gouerned in soule If all forraine iurisdiction must bee renounced then Christ his Apostles because they were are forreners haue no iurisdiction nor authoritie ouer England A thowsand other absurdities are consequent to this oth which anon you shall heare Theo. Wake you or dreame you Philander that in matters of no lesse weight than your duetie to God and the Prince you fall to these childish and pelting sophismes What kinde of concluding call you this Princes onely beare the sword to commaund and punish ergo Bishops may not teach and exhort Princes be not subiect to the Pope ergo superiours to Christ. They may by their lawes establish those thinges that Christ hath commaunded ergo they may change both Scriptures and Sacramentes No forrainer at this day hath any iurisdiction ouer this Land ergo Christ and his Apostles fifteene hundred yeeres ago might not preach the Gospel Phi. We make no such fond reasons Theo. The former propositions are the true contens of the oth which wee take the later are those very absurdities which you infer vpon vs for taking that oth Phi. You would slip from your words which wee knowe to your meaning which we know not but that you shal not We grouÌ„ded our absurdities vpoÌ„ the words of your oth For if princes be supreme gouernors in al spiritual things causes ergo they be supreme iudges of faith deciders of controuersies interpreters of scriptures deuisers of ceremonies appointers of sacrameÌ„ts what not The. You might euen as well haue coÌ„cluded princes be supreme gouernors in al teÌ„poral things causes ergo they be supreme guiders of graÌ„mer moderators of Logik directors of Rhetorik appointers of Musike prescribers of Medicines resoluers of al doubtes iudges of al matters incident any way to reason art or actioÌ„ If this be leud irreuereÌ„t iesting yours is no better Ph. I promise you we iest not The. The more shame for you if you be in earnest to conclude so loosely Phi. Do you make princes supreme gouernors of al spiritual things Theo. You reason as if we did but our words since you wil needes rest vpon wordes are not so Phi. What are they then The. We coÌ„fesse them to be supreme gouernors of their Realms DominioÌ„s Phi. And that in al spriritual things causes The. Not of al spiritual things causes Ph. What differeÌ„ce between those two speeches Theo. Iust as much as excludeth your wrangling Wee make them not gouernors of the things themselues but of all their subiectes which I trust you dare not withstand Phi. I grant they be gouernors of their subiects but not in Ecclesiasticall things or causes They must leaue those matters for Bishops whoÌ„ Christ hath appointed to be yâ— rulers of his church And therfore your oth yeelding that power to princes which is proper to Bishops is repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature Yea it is an euideÌ„t error reproueable by al humane diuine learning that the souerainty or supremacy in causes Ecclesiasticall is by nature or by christian lawes implied in the right title of a temporal king or that it euer was due or can be due to any temporall gouernor heathen or christiaÌ„ in the world And if you will but giue eare you shal heare what a number of absurdities we wil fasten vpon you The. This oth is a great eye sore with you and I remember I promised to discusse the same in this chapter I will therefore first examine the chiefe parts of it and after you shall obiect against it what you can Where we professe that her Highnes is the onely gouernor of this Realme the word gouernor doth seuer the magistrate from the minister sheweth a manifest differeÌ„ce between their office For Bishops be no gouernors of countries princes be that is Bishops bear not the sword to reward reuenge princes do Bishops haue no power to command punish princes haue This appeareth by the words of our Sauiour expressely forbidding his Apostles to be rulers of nations leauing it to princes The kings of nations rule ouer their people and they that be great ones exercise authority With you it shal not be so that is you shall neither beare rule nor exercise authority ouer your brethren Phi. The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they ouerrule their subiects with iniustice violence you shal not do so Theo. So your new translatioÌ„ ouer ruleth the word howbeit Christ in that place doth not traduce the power of princes as vniust or outragious but distinguisheth yâ— calling of his Apostles froÌ„ the maner of regimeÌ„t which God hath allowed the magistrate Christ â—aith not princes bee tyrantes you shal deale more curteously than they do but he saith Princes bee Lords and rulers ouer their people by Gods ordinaÌ„ce you shal not be so Again the word which S. Luke hath is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any composition They be Lords and masters S. Paul confesseth of himselfe other Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not that we be Lords or Masters of your faith yea the compound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is with power force to rule meÌ„ whether they will or no not with wrong iniury to oppresse them therefore the conclusion is ineuitable that princes may lawfully compell punish their subiects which Bishops may not This distinction between them is euident by their seueral coÌ„missions which God hath signed The prince not the priest beareth the sword ergo the prince not
the priest is Gods minister to reuēge male factors Peter himself was sharply rebuked by Christ for vsing the sword in Peter all Pastors Bishops are straitly charged not to meddle with it Al that take the sword shall perish with the sword And of al men a Bishop must be no striker For if he that should feede his masters houshold fal to striking he shall haue his portion with hypocrites The seruants of God must be gentle towards all instructing those that resist with mildnes not cōpelling any with sharpnes Their function is limited to the preaching of the word dispensing the sacraments which haue no kinde of cōpulsion in thē but inuite men only by sober perswasions to beleeue imbrace the promises of God To conclude pastors may teach exhort reproue not force cōmand or reuenge only princes be gouernors that is publik magistrates to prescribe by their lawes and punish with the sword such as resist them within their dominions which Bishops may not do speake we truth or no Phi. We grant Bishops be no magistrates neither haue they to do with the bodies or goods of mē which god hath permitted to the princes power but yet they be gouernors of soules which princes be not Theo. No better reason to warrāt our opinion The Bishops charge concerneth the souls of mē but the soule of mā can neither be forced nor punished by man ergo Bishops be no commanders nor punishers but only directors instructors of the flocke of Christ. Phi. That we know The. Thē since by gouernors we mean rulers such as God hath authorized to bear the sword why do you fondly cauil that the princes power to cōmand punish excludeth the Bishops vocation to teach exhort which is nothing so Phi. You say princes may command and punish as well Bishops as others Theo. If they bee subiectes no lesse than others why should they not obey the prince or abide the sword as wel as others Phi. Do you make them meere subiects Theo. Not I but he that said You must be subiect not only for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Phi. Doth he speake that of clergymē Theo. He y◠speaketh of al exempteth none Let euery soule bee subiect to the higher powers c. In these words clergymen be not excepted ergo cōprised Out of this place Bernard reasoneth thus with an archbishop of Frāce Let euery soul be subiect If euery thē yours Who doth except you y◠be bishops frō this general speech He that bringeth an exceptiō vseth but a delusion For these things saith Chrysostom are commanded to all as well Priestes and Monks as secular men which appeareth by the first sentence Let euery soule bee subiect to the superiour powers yea though thou be an Apostle an Euangelist a Prophet or what soeuer thou be So Theodorete Whether he be Priest Bishop or Monk let them be subiect to Magistrates This doctrine dured in the Church a thousand yeares before your exemption of Clerkes from secular powers as you call them was knowen Paul teacheth euerie soule saith Theophilact whether he be Priest Monk or Apostle to be subiect and obey Princes He teacheth euery soule saith Oecumenius whether he be Priest Monk or Apostle to submit themselues to Magistrates Gregorie the first perceiued and yeelded this exposition to be true Power saith he ouer all men is giuen to my Lord the Emperour from heauen And least you should thinke priests exempted in the person of Christ he speaketh thus to Mauritius the Emperour Sacerdotes meos tuae manui commisi I haue put my Priestes into thy handes and dost thou withhold thy souldiers from my seruice And elsewhere writing of the same prince Christ hath granted him to be ruler not ouer souldiers only but ouer Priestes also This is euident by the whole course of the Scripture Whom did our Sauiour charge to giue to Caesar that which was Caesars Not Scribes and high Priests as well as others Christ himselfe was a priest and a prophet and yet he not onely submitted himselfe to the Romane Magistrate but confessed the presidēts power ouer him to be from heauen S. Paul appealed vnto Caesar appeared before Caesar as his lawful gouernor S. Iude detested thē for false prophetes that despised gouernment or spake euil of rulers It is no Religion it is rebellion against God his word for clergie men to exempt themselues from the princes power The commandement is general Let euery soule be subiect◠the punishment is eternall Whosoeuer resisteth power resisteth the ordināce of God and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation Phi. Yet reason the clergie be fauoured aboue the Laitie Theo. Tush we talke not what fauour princes may do well to shew but whether Clergie men by Gods law may chalenge an exemption from earthly powers or no Phi. Not except princes commaund against God And if they do so whom must lay men obey God or man Phi. No doubt God Theo. Then the prince cōmaunding against God all men are bound be they lay men or clerkes to prefer the will of God before the princes lawes but when the prince ioyneth with God and commaundeth for truth may the clergie resist the prince more than the people may Phi. They may not Theo. You say well Of the twaine they must rather obey that they may be teachers of obedience not in wordes onely but in deedes also For if they must admonish others to be subiect to principalities and obedient to Magistrates then must they not hinder their doctrine by their doings nor leade the rest by their example to contemn or resist powers which they should reuerence and obey Phi. By no meanes Theo. And in case the prince be repugnant to God may priestes or people be violent withstanders or must they rather be patient indurers of the sword Phi. They must not resist but in patience possesse their soules They that resist shal receiue iudgemēt Theo. Ergo whether princes be with God or against God Priests Bishops must with gladnes obey or with meekenes abide the sword Phi. They must Theo. And he that suffereth is a subiect as wel as he that obeyeth For if they be rulers that commaund punish certainely they be subiects that must obey the commandement or abide the punishment Phi. I think so Theo. Then monks Prists Bishops by Gods law be subiects as well as others and consequently Princes be Gouernours of all persons within their dominions bee they Prelates Prophetes Apostles or whatsoeuer they be Phi. In temporal things we graunt but not in spiritual Theo. Where Princes may lawfully commaund all subiects of dewtie must obey Phi. True but in Ecclesiastical causes Princes may not meddle Theo. So say you but if I proue that the Princes power and charge by Gods law reacheth as well vnto matters of religion as other things will you bethink your selues
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
Upon whose cōplaint the good prince wrote this to the whole councel Your synod hath decreed I know not what in a tumult vprore whiles you seeke to peruert truth by your pestilent disorder for hatred against your fellow bishops but the diuine prouidēce wil I doubt not scatter the mischief of your contentiō make it plain in our sight whether your cōuent had any regard of truth or no. You must therefore al of you resort hither to shew the reason of your doings for so doth it seem good expedient to me to which end I willed this rescript to be sent you that as many of you as were present at the councel of Tyrus without delay repair to the place of our abode there to giue accompt how sincerely soundly you haue iudged and that before me whom your selues shal not deny to be the sincere minister of God in these cases The prince summoned the coūcel prescribed thē what they should hādle gaue charge to the parties accused to come before thē sharply rebuked the bishops assembled in this synod cōmāded thē to come corā nobis rēder a reason of their tumultuous iudgemēt assured thē that he would in his own person examin their doings whether they were good substātial or no. This power he chalēged ouer churchmē church-matters not as a violēt vsurper but as gods minister ordained to y◠intēt which the catholik bishops that took part with Athan. cōfessed to be true by their appeal the rest y◠deposed him neither did nor durst deny So the Const. was both an orderly refuge for Athan. a lawful cōtroler of the coūcel of Tyrus notwtstāding the crimes obiected there to Macarius Atha were spiritual to wit the striking of a priest ouerthrowing the Lordes table dashing in peeces the mystical cup burning the sacred books vsing a dead mās hand to sorcery with many such hainous offences leudly deuised by their accusers not any way proued against them yet taken by their aduersaries then iudges for iust matter to condemne them In restoring Arius the mildnesse of Constantine was somewhat abused by the crafty dissembling of heretikes yet thereby may well appeare what authority this Prince claimed to command Bishops release the rigor of their ecclesiastical cēsures Thus stood the case The Princes was often tolde that Arius held no such opinion as the world misdouted in him If Arius saith he consent to the Nicene coūcel I wil admit him to my sight send him home with honor Arius his adherents accepting the cōdition were willed to put their faith in writing with their wily submission so pleased Cōstantine very glad to see them yeeld to the Nicene creed that he sent thē with his letters towards Alexandria to be receiued At their cōming Athanasius the Bishop of those parts refused to cōmunicate with them aduertising his Maiesty by writing the heretiks once deposed might not be restored to their former estate Constantine tooke this exception in such il part that he fel to cōmanding Athanasius in short sharp terms Knowing our pleasure WE CHARGE YOV that you suffer freely those that will to returne to the church For if I learn that you forbid or exclude such as would gladly be partakers of the church I WILL PRESENTLY SEND ONE THAT SHALL BY COMMISSION from me DEPOSE YOV This saith Socrates he wrote minding to profit the church end al dissētion but it fel out otherwise for the citizēs of Alexādria were so troubled with the boldnes of Arius lack of Athanasius then banished that Cōstantine doubting the peruerse mind of Arius sent for him asked him whether he wold subscribe to the Nicene faith which he did there in presence very readily but slily The Prince musing at it exacted an oth that he took likewise Then the christian Emperor finding no cause to suspect him farther COMMANDED ALEXANDER BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE TO RECEIVE HIM the next day TO THE COMMVNION which God preuēted with a suddain shameful death in detestation both of his heresie so long defended periury then freshly cōmitted Now chose whether you wil affirm that Cōstantine was ouer presumptuous imperious in the church of Christ against al reason good order or else agnise that Princes had then authority to require the subscriptions othes of such as they suspected in religion to restore those that were deposed to their ancient places vpon their submission and command the chiefe Bishops for so were both these the first of Alexandria the second of Constantinople to receiue such as had purged themselues in the Princes iudgement and presence to the communion Phi. Uengeāce frō heauen decided the case with Athanasius against Arius Th. No doubt Arius was worthly plagued for his false swearing wicked meaning to trouble the church of God worse with his secret dissembling than he did before with his open rebelling but what is this to Constantine whose zeale to preserue truth was neuer doubted whose care to procure concord in the church can not be blamed whose diligence to sift Arius with an oth could not be bettered We propose not the lewed fact of Arius blaspheming God iugling with man we detest that mōster as much as you but we lay forth the steps of Cōstātine seeking hoping his reformatiō to the end cōmanding the very Patriarks themselues threatning due punishement if his princely will were not obeyed Iustinian in his Code repeateth the lawes of former Emperours not onely touching the Christian faith baptisme Churches and bishops but also touching heretiks Apostataes Iewes and Infidels In his Authentikes he maketh many new cōstitutions in which he disposeth OF SACRAMENTS in what places by what persons with what lowdnes of voice they shal be ministred OF SYNODS when they shall be kept what things shal be reformed in them according to the sacred Canons and his Princely lawes also what Canons of Councels shall stand in the same strength with his Lawes OF CHVRCHES AND ABBAIES guiding the maner of their erection the number of their Clerkes their expences suites and priuileges OF MONKS who shal elect their Abbate what time shall suffice for their triall what rules they shall keepe for praier diet rest and such like dueties of life to whom the correction and ouersight of them shall belong OF PRIESTS DEACONS AND OTHER SERVITORS in the Church limiting their age condition learning and good report before they shall be receiued to this charge their diligēt sober and chast behauiour afterward OF BISHOPS howe they shall bee chosen in what sort their soundnes in faith skill in common prayer and clearnes from all iust accusations prohibited by the sacred rules or lawes imperiall shal be throughly sifted before they may bee confirmed what causes they shall medle with in their Consistories what superior iudges they themselues shall haue from whom they shal not appeale what punishment they shall
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
submitteth himselfe to the Princes commissioners and offereth to amend all that is amisse by the princes iudgement This lowly submission importeth an euident subiection Phi. It was a dispensation of the Popes humilitie not any part of his bounden duetie thus to doe Theo. So Gratian the compiler of your decrees falueth the matter which is as much as if you sayde the Pope by right might haue commaunded the Prince but in a merie moode for once to make sport he would needes bee iudged and ordered by the Prince Is not this a proper kind of diuinitie when the Pope protesteth his obedience to the Princes power and lawes to say the Pope speaketh in iest his wordes are but a tricke of voluntarie which he may recall or refuse when hee will If such vnlearned irreligious and vnsavory shiftes may serue for good answeres you may soone defend what religion you lift It is a very short and easie methode to be rid of all examples and histories to say they did so but it was more than needed or should haue beene done Phi. In temporall matters it might be the Pope was subiect to the Princes power but not in spirituall Theo. No man can bee both a subiect and a superiour to the Princes power A subiect is alwayes a subiect that is at al times to bee commaunded and punished by the magistrate neuer to command or punish the Magistrate Againe Leo referreth him selfe in all thinges both great and small to the Princes pleasure and censure now a subiect in all thinges is superiour in nothing yet left you shoulde cauill that ecclesiasticall causes are not expresty mentioned in this place you shall see that the Bishoppes of Rome for eight hundred yeeres and aboue were suppliants and seruants not of curtesie but of duetie to Christian Emperours and obeyed their ecclesiasticall Lawes and edicts and were commaunded and ouerruled by them in the regiment of the Church as the stories that follow shall plainely declare Donatus and his fellowes pretending that Cecilianus could not be Bishop of Carthage for many crimes falsely surmised and specially for that Felix which layed handes on him had as they sayde betrayed or burnt the scriptures not onely refused his communion and procured his condemnation in a Prouinciall Synode by lxx Africane Bishoppes but in a tumult erected an other Bishoppe besides him diuided the people from him and offering a bill of complaint against him to the Proconsull of Africke made a request to Constantine that hee woulde giue them iudges to decide the matter The Prince carefull to keepe the Church in peace did authorize Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome Marcus a Clergieman of the same Citie but as then no Bishop Rheticius Maternus and Maximus three Bishoppes of Fraunce to consider their allegations and determine the strife Where sentence passing with Cecilianus the contrarie part appealed from the commissioners to the Prince This appeale Constantine might haue iustly reiected as made from his owne delegates but seeking all meanes to pacifie the schisme commanded a greater number of their Bishoppes to meete together at Arle in France there to sit in Councell a fresh about the hearing and ending of this quarell from whome for that they likewise concluded Cecilianus to be right Bishop of Carthage the Donatists appealed as they had done from the first adding nowe that if Cecilianus himselfe were cleare yet so long as Felix was guiltie which ordered and confirmed him his election must needes bee voyde The patient and mild Emperour seeing them twise conuicted and not contented but still murmuring against the Bishoppes as partiall and dayly molesting his eares with importunate suite neuer troubled Bishoppe or Councell with the clearing of Felix but appointed Aelianus a ciuill Magistrate to search out the trueth of these later accusations in a temporall Court where Felix after diligent examination was iudicially discharged and acquitted from all suspition of that sacrilegious abusing the woorde of God Then were both sides called before Constantine to receiue iudgement at his handes without appeale who taking paynes in his owne Person to sit iudge betweene them and exactly weighing what either part could say gaue sentence with Cecilianus against Donatus making therewithall a most sharpe Lawe to punish the Donatists if they persisted in their wilfulnes as dissentious schismatikes from the Church of Christ which rigour the Christian Emperours that followed did rather increase than diminish This I thought good to report out of Eusebius Optatus and Austen somewhat the larger that the circumstaunces being fully knowen the conclusion might the better bee perceiued I trust you will not denie but the strife betweene Cecilianus and Donatus consisted both of persons and causes ecclesiasticall The parties accused and accusing were Bishoppes the faultes obiected were iust impediments of episcopall dignitie the matters in doubt were the committing and partaking of sacrilege the right election of Bishoppes the lawfull deposing of them by Synodes the needefull communion with them or schismaticall dissention from them No causes can possiblely touch the regiment of Christes Church neerer than these wel then in these causes who was supreme Meltiades or Constantine The bishop of Rome or the Emperour The prince sent commission to the Pope ioyned other collegues with him receiued an appeale from him gaue second iudges after him and in his owne person pronounced finall sentence without him the least of these facts proueth the prince superiour to the Pope and all these did that famous Emperour and his doings in this case were very well lyked and accepted in the Church of Christ. Which of these things wil you now encounter Did not Cōstantine authorize Meltiades His commission is yet extant to Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome and Marcus with these words My pleasure is that Cecilianus with ten Bishops of his accusers and other tenne of his fauourers come to Rome there to be heard before you both ioyning with you Rheticius Maternus and Marinus your collegues whom purposely for this matter I haue willed with speede to repaire vnto you S. Austen debating with the Donatists what iust exceptions they could take to so many sentences giuen against them moueth this doubt maketh this answere Should not thinke you Meltiades Bishop of Rome with his collegues haue vsurped that iudgement which lxx Africane Bishops had ended What that he did not vsurpe For the Emperour vpon motion made by you sent Bishops to sit with him as iudges and to rule that matter in euery point as iustice should leade them This we proue by the Donatists supplication and the Princes owne wordes If S. Austen defend the Bishoppe of Rome from vsurping in this case by producing vrging a commission from the prince then apparētly both the pope was authorized by y◠princes power to giue iudgemēt in a matter ecclesiastical had bin but for that warrant an vsurper Phi. S. Austen sayth that Constantine durst not be iudge of a Bishops cause Theo. At the first hee
faith and which your Highnes for verie loue to trueth will make voide by your decree to the contrarie most glorious Emperour I therefore earnestly request and beseech your Maiestie by the Lord Iesus Christ the founder and guider of your kingdom that in this councell of Chalcedon which is presently to bee kept you will not suffer the faith to bee called in question which our blessed Fathers helde deliuered them from the Apostles neither permit such errours as haue beene long since condemned by them to bee nowe reuiued againe but that you will rather commaunde the faith concluded in the first Nicene Councell to stande in full force remouing all the latter deuises of Heretikes Which request Martian accomplished entering the Councell in his owne person and there by word of mouth absolutely forbidding the Bishops to defend or auouch any thing of the flesh and birth of our Sauiour otherwise thā the Nicene creed did containe To this councel of Chalcedon Leo willed by Martiā to subscribe returned his answere in this suppliant duetifull order Because I must by all meanes obey your sacred and religious will I haue set down my consent in writing to those Synodall constitutions which for the confirmation of the catholike faith and condemnation of heretiks pleased me very well What better witnesse can we produce that in causes Ecclesiasticall the Prince was the Popes superiour than this that for repealing the Councell of Ephesus for summoning the Councell o◠Chalcedon for charging those 600. and 30. fathers not to decline from the Nicene faith and requiring the Bishop of Rome to subscribe to their actes Martian commaundeth with authoritie Leo with al readinesse obeyeth yea that Leo beseecheth Martian to commaund and protesteth that for his part he did and must obey the Princes will in those cases We COMMAVND saith Iustinian the blessed ARCHBISHOPS of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem to receiue for ordering and instauling of Bishoppes onely that which this present Lawe doeth allow And taxing the charges of euery Bishoppe according to the yearly value of his Church If any man saith hee presume to take for installations or other duties aboue the rate which we prefixe we cōmand that he repay thrise so much of his own to the church or bishop in that sort grieued Neither doth he limit the Popes receites onely but also bindeth him with the rest by this general constitution If any man be made Bishop contrary to the forme which this law prescribeth the party confirmed shall loose his Bishopricke and the confirmer stand suspended from his Ecclesiasticall function one whole year and besides forfeit all his goods to the vse of his owne church mary when a bishop is accused of any thing that doth by the sacred canons or our lawes hinder his consecration if any man order him before diligent examination had as well he that did order him as he that is ordered shal for euer be depriued Thus coulde auncient Princes commaund in causes and correct for offences Ecclesiasticall euen the chiefest Patriarkes and namely the Bishop of Rome who now taketh on him to depose Princes and dispose kingdomes at his pleasure This illation is more than euident by the wordes of Gregorie the first who writing to the Emperour Mauritius vseth euery where this stile My Lord my most gracious Lord I your seruant and subiect to your commaundement and that not in temporall causes but in things concerning the rules and orders of Christes church as by the speciall circumstances will appeare Mauritius perceiuing that many coueted to be Clergi-men and Monkes some to preuent the daunger of their accomptes others to decline the burden of warfare made this decree that no souldier nor officer accountant to the Prince for any summes of mony should be receiued to sacred orders or Monastical profession charging the Bishoppe of Rome to giue notice thereof to the rest of his Prouince Gregorie though very much amased and grieued at the strangenesse of this law yet durst not resist or refuse the same but first with all diligence put the commaundement of Mauritius in execution and afterward fell to beseeching him to relent somewhat from the rigour of this hard and seuere prohibition My Lord hath giuen forth this edict saith he that no man entangled with seruice for the common weale should enter any ecclesiasticall function which I greatly praysed knowing that he which on the suddaine steppeth from a secular trade to a spiritual charge doth not meane to leaue but exchange the world Where it is added that none such should be suffered in any Monasterie this I maruailed at seeing the place doth not hinder the making of his accompts nor the paiment of his debts It followeth in the same law That no man once mustered as a souldier should cōuert from that calling and become a Monke Which constitution I confesse to my Lord did euen astonish mee because the way to heauen is thereby shut vp from many men and that now prohibited as vnlawfull which hath hitherto bin frankly permitted And what am I that speake to my Lord but dust and a verie worme Yet for that this Edict tendeth against God the creator of all thinges I can not conceale so much from my Lord. I therefore beseech you by the dreadful iudge that your holines wil either mitigate or abrogate this rigorus proclamation I for my part as subiect to your commaundement haue sent your precept into sundrie coastes yet because your Lawe doeth not stand with Gods glorie Lo by letters I haue acquainted my most glorious Lord there-withall So that I haue either way done my duetie which haue both yeelded obedience to my Prince and in Gods behalfe disburdened my conscience I your vnworthie suppliant waxe not thus bold either in respect I am a Bishop or in that I am your seruant by publike right but resting on your speciall and priuate fauour for that most gracious Soueraigne you were my Lord and master when as yet you were not Lord and chiefe ouer all If it be possible for a subiect to shew more submission and dutie to the Princes commaundement than the Bishop of Rome doth to Mauritius restraining all Bishops by his princely power from admission of such Monkes and election of such Clerkes as hee disabled let your Apologie bee had in some credit but if greater obedience than these wordes import neither Gods law doth exact nor Princes can expect I trust Gregories owne confession shal be taken without exception The like submission vpon like occasion is extant in other his Epistles as when Mauritius willed him to grow to some concord with Iohn Bishop of Cōstantinople to whom or from whom Gregorie would in no wise send or accept letters of communion societie because the saide Iohn entitled him vniuersall Patriarke I haue saith hee receiued letters from my vertuous Lord that I should be at peace with my brother and fellow Bishop Iohn In deed
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
cause I say of fayth Bishops are wont to iudge of Christian Emperours not Emperours of Bishoppes And where Valentinian required Ambrose to yeeld his Church depart whither hee woulde for yeelding his Church his answere was Nec mihi fas est tradere nec tibi accipere Imperator expedit Domum priuati nullo potes iure temerare domum dei existimas auferendam Allegatur imperatori licere omnia ipsius esse vniuersa Respondeo It is neither lawfull for mee to yeeld it nor expedient for you O Emperour to take it The house of a priuate man you can not by right inuade doe you thinke you may take away the house of God by violence It is alleaged the Emperour may do what hee will all things are his I answere Doe not burden your selfe O Emperour to thinke you haue any Emperiall right ouer those thinges which bee Gods Exalt not your selfe so high but if you will raigne long bee subiect to God Palaces pertayne to Emperours Churches to Priests The Church is Gods it ought not to be yeelded by mee to Cesar. The temple of God can not bee Cesars right I can not deliuer that which I receiued to keepe in Gods behalfe to heretiks Would God it were apparant to me that my church should not be deliuered to the Arrians I would willingly offer my self to the iudgement of your highnes Would God it were decreed that no Arrian should trouble my Churches and of my Person pronounce what sentence you will With my consent I will neuer forgoe my right if I bee compelled I haue no way to resist I can sorow I can weepe I can sigh teares are my weapons Priests haue only those defences by other meanes I neither ought nor can resist Flee forsake my church I vse not lest any thinke it done to auoyde some sorer punishment If my goods bee sought for take them if my body I will be ready Will you put me in Irons or lead me to death You shal do me a pleasure I wil not gard my self with multitudes of people I wil not flee to the altar to intreat for life but wil gladly be sacrificed for the altars of god Depart Ambrose would not thereby to saue himselfe leaue his Church to Arians the Emperour should banish him or els he would not forsake his flocke I could wish you had not sent me word to go whither I would I came euery day abroad I had no gard about me You should haue appointed me whither you would Now the rest of the Priests say to me there is no difference whether thou be content to relinquish or thy selfe yeelde vp the altar of Christ for when thou doest forsake it thou doest deliuer it If a strong hande remoue me from my Church my flesh may bee caried thence my minde shall not Betray my Church I cannot but fight I ought not These answeres bee full of humilitie and as I thinke full of that affection and reuerence which a Bishoppe should beare to a prince Wee see the groundes that Ambrose stood on resolued rather to suffer any death than by his consent or departure to betray the Church of Christ into the handes of Auxentius the Arrian His meaning was not with violence to resist or with pride to despise the yong prince but either to die with his flocke or at least to bee remoued from his flocke by the princes power without his own cōsent because it were sinne in him to resigne or leaue the house of God as a pray for heretikes vnlesse he were thereunto compelled and forced against his will Phi. I thereby gather that Princes may not meddle with Churches without the Bishoppes assent Theo. You may thereby well collect that Bishoppes were better to giue their lyues than yeelde their churches for Christ to bee blasphemed in except they bee constrained Phi. The Bishoppe refused though the Prince commanded Theo. Hee refused to put his consent to the Princes will but hee resisted not the Princes power Phi. No thankes in that hee could not Theo. Yes great thankes in that hee would not when all the citizens of Millan tooke part with him and the souldiers denyed to wayte on the Emperour to any other church but onely to that where he was and greater obedience in that hee confessed he should not Aliter nec debeo nec possum resistere otherwise than by teares and sighes I neyther ought nor can resist and likewise hee commended the people for saying Regamus Auguste non pugnamus wee make request O Soueraigne wee make no tumult So that Ambrose in these wordes which you bring doth not generally dislike that Princes should meddle with religion or make Lawes for Christ but first affirmeth which wee confesse that Princes be no iudges of faith and next auoucheth that his refusall to deliuer his Church to the handes of Arrians was no stubburnnes against the Prince but obedience to God whose house it was and that he could not consent to betray the same to Gods enemies but hee should highly displease and offend God in so doing By this you may proue that wee must obey God before man and that al Pastours ought rather to giue their liues than their consents that heretikes shoulde inuade their flockes but against the Princes authoritie to commaund for trueth and punish error by the wordes or deedes of Ambrose for ought that I see you can conclude nothing Phi. Hee reporteth and commendeth the wordes of Valentinian the elder the father of this yong Valentinian Non est meum iudicare inter episcopos It is not for me to iudge among Bishops Theo. He gaue the yong Prince to vnderstand what a weightie matter it was To sit iudge betweene Bishoppes in cases of fayth and not among Bishoppes as you translate it in that his father a man of ripe yeres great wisedome and good experience refused this as a burden too heauie for him And what if the question betwixt the christians and Arrians were so intricate that Valentinian durst not take vpon him to discusse or determine the same is that any reason to proue that princes may not establish trueth and abolish falshood by their publike Lawes Phi. Was that the matter wherein Valentinian refused to bee iudge betweene the Bishoppes Theo. Euen that if you dare beleeue the storie of the Church For The Bishops of Hellespontus and Bithinia sayth Sozomene and as many as professed the sonne of God to be of the same substance with his father sent Hypatianus in a legacie to Valentinian the Emperour to request him that he would permit them to meete in a Councell to correct the Doctrine which trobled the Church When Hypatianus came to him declared the petition of the Bishops Valentinian aswered For me that am a Lay man I think it not lawful to search curiously such deepe matters let the priests that haue charge of these things meete where they like best among themselues This fearefulnes of Valentinian
whiles he could not so much as looke into the contention betwixt the Christians and the Arrians did the Church no good For though Valentinian were for his owne person well perswaded in religion yet he suffered the Arrians to do what they would as Sozome confesseth Valentinian being himselfe of the Nicene faith made much of those that were of the same opinion with him but molested not any that were of the contrarie And that note Socrates giueth him Valentinian honoured those that were of his faith but in the meane time he let the Arrians do what they would And though himself very religiously embraced the Godhead of Christ yet would he commaund nothing to the Bishops in that behalfe neither thought hee good to change other ecclesiastical lawes into better or worse For he took them to be aboue his reache though he were otherwise a very good Emperour and fitte to rule as appeared by his doings Phi. Mislike you this in Valentinian Theo. Doe you like that he suffered Arrians to haue their foorth neither molested nor resisted them Phi. We like not that Theo. Then you mislike the timerousnes or remissenes call it what you will in the church affaires as well as we doe for what commendation could it be for him neither to meddle nor make with ecclesiasticall matters but to permit all sortes and sects to follow their appetites Phi. The stories commend him as excelling in wisedome moderation and iustice Theo. The best men haue their faults and are somtimes led with priuate fansies Valentinian was a good man and worthie the Empire and yet he made a Law that euery man that would might haue two wiues and himselfe gaue the first example in taking two Phi. What he did not Theo. Meaning to Marrie Iustina for report of her bewtie he made a law and published the same in euerie citie that it should be lawful for al men to haue two wiues at once And after the law so made he tooke Iustina to wife by whom hee had Valentinian the yonger and three daughters not diuorcing Seuera the mother of Gratiaen his elder sonne whom hee a little before had created Emperour Phi. That was a fault in deede Theo. And this was an other that hee gaue himselfe to quietnes and molested no sect of heretikes vpon this opinion that it passed his capasitie to iudge betweene the Bishops in matters of faith Phi. But Ambrose doth commend it Theo. Ambrose doth alleage it to stay the yong prince froÌ„ rashly presuming to iudge of their matters before he knew the first principles of religion because his father when he was aged Inhabilem se ponderi tanti putabat esse iudicij thought himself vnable to iudge in so weightie a cause but farther he doth not commend it and yet he might commend that in Valentinian and not hurt vs. For wee doe not encourage Princes to professe themselues iudges of fayth which Valentinian thought too great a burden but onely wee wish them to discerne betwixt trueth and error which euery priuate man must do that will be a Christian. And though Valentinian distrusted his owne iudgement in matters of faith yet that did not fray Theodosius a Prince highly commended by Ambrose him self from looking into the strife betweene the Homousians and Arrians and appointing by a solemne edict which of them should be counted Catholikes which heretikes and taking their Churches from them without their consents For hee not long after hee was called to the Empire by Valentinians eldest sonne willed euery sect to put their fayth in writing At the day prefixed the Bishoppes of euery religion being sent for came to the Court Nectarius and Agelius for the Homousians or Catholikes Demophilus â—or the Arrians Eunomius himselfe for his followers and for the Macedonians Eleusius When they were come the Prince admitted them to his presence and taking the Paper of eche mans opinion hartily besought God to helpe him in choosing the trueth Then reading their confessions written hee reiected al the rest as diuiding and seuering the sacred Trinitie and tare them in peeces and onely liked and embraced the Homousian fayth and therewithall made a Lawe that such as followed that fayth should bee counted Christian Catholikes the rest infamous heretikes All people subiect to our Empire wee will haue continue in that religion which S. Peter the Apostle deliuered to the Romanes as the fayth kept from his tyme to this day doth declare and the which it is euident Bishop Damasus and Peter Bishop of Alexandria a man of Apostolike sanctitie doe professe to witte that according to the Apostolike and Euangelike Doctrine wee beleeue one Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost of like Maiestie in sacred Trinitie The obseruers of this Lawe wee commaund to bee taken for Christian Catholikes the rest as mad and frantike we adiudge to beare the reproch of heretikes which must looke to feele first the vengeance of God next such penalties as the motion of our heart directed from aboue shall appoint As this religious Prince published by his Lawes which opinion should be counted trueth and which heresie so did hee by the same authoritie commaund the Churches throughout his Empire to bee presently taken from the Arrians and deliuered into the handes and possession of such as were of a right fayth So sayth Sozomene The Emperour Theodosius made a Law that the Nicene fayth shoulde bee authentike and all Churches to bee deliuered to them which professed the same Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost in three persons of equall honour and like power The Lawe it selfe is extant The rule of the Nicene faith receiued from our fathers and confirmed by the witnes and assertion of diuine religion let it stand good for euer And he shall bee counted a follower of the Nicene fayth and a true professor of the Catholike religion that holdeth the vndiuided substance of the incorrupt Trinitie which by a Greeke worde is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of right beleeuers They which bee not of this faith let them cease by cunning deuises to shroud theÌ„ selues vnder the name of true religion which they professe not be plainely noted by their heresies and vtterly remoued and expelled from all Churches that throughout the worlde the Churches may bee deliuered to the Bishops which hold the Nicene fayth So Gratian the sonne of Valentinian after the Empire came entirely to his hands commanded the preachers of the Arrian blasphemie as wild and cruel beasts to be driuen from their Churches and the same to be restored to good Pastors the executioÌ„ of this law he coÌ„mitted to Sapores a most famous captaine of that time The like did Theodosius the yonger decree that they which followed the wicked faith of Nestorius or cleaued to his vnlawfull doctrin if they were Bishops or Clerks should be cast out of their churches if they were Laymen they should bee accursed By this it is
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
els you make a madde construction But if you meane that Princes should not rule Bishops in ecclesiastical causes iudgements that is not worke them nor force them against the witnes of their heartes and consciences to follow the willes and appetites of Princes as Constantius did by the report of Athanasius in this place then the wordes which you bring be very true but nothing pertinent to this question The ruling then of Bishoppes and sitting as president of ecclesiasticall iudgements which Constantius vsed and Athanasius reproued was nothing elss but a wilfull contempt in himselfe of the faith and Canons of the Church and a furious compulsion of others to make them determine what hee listed and condemne whom him pleased without respect of trueth and against all order of common iustice Phi. This is your gloze which wee doe not beleeue Theo. Your owne witnesses say the same whom you may not well discredite Phi. Which of them Theo. Athanasius and Hilarie Phi. Where say they so Theo. Not farre from the places which your selfe alleage The whole Epistle of Athanasius which you quote is a large repetition of yâ— tirannous words and deedes of Constantius touching causes ecclesiasticall The first booke of Hilarie against Constantius the first I meane as they nowe stande in order though the last in time as they were written doeth handle the same argument Reade either of them you can not choose amisse Let passe the horrible persecution raysed by Constantius wherein the Pagans were set to inuade the Churches of Christians and to beate the people with staues and stones the Bishops Priests and Monkes were bound with chaynes and scourged with roddes the women were haled by the hayre to the iudgement seate the virgins were tosted by the fire and whipped with Prickles others were banished strangled trampled to death vnder feete and their limmes and ioyntes euen torne and rent asunder after they were dead in so much that Athanasius is fayne to crie out who was not amazed at these things who would giue them the name of Ethnicks much lesse of christians who will thinke them to haue the conditions of men and not rather of beastes who perceiued not the Arrians to bee crueller than beasts The straungers standing by yea the Ethnicks detested the Arians as Antichristes and butchers of men O new found heresie which in villanies and impieties hast put on the fulnes of the Diuell howe great so euer hee bee let passe I say these thinges and come to his behauiour in matters and causes ecclesiasticall Paulinus Lucifer and other Bishoppes being called before him the Emperour commaunded them to subscribe against Athanasius and to communicate with the Arrians they marueiling at this strange endeuor answering that the ecclesiastical Canons would not suffer them so to doe hee straightway replied AT QVOD EGO VOLO PRO CANONE SIT ita me loquentem Syriae episcopi sustinent aut ergo obteÌ„perate aut vos quoque exules esrote LET MY WIL BE TAKEN OF YOV FOR A CANON the Bishoppes of Syria content themselues with this speach of mine Therefore doe as I will you or depart into banishment And when the Bishoppes held vp their hands to God and with great libertie proposed their reasons shewing him that the kingdome was not his but Gods of whom he receiued it and that it was to bee feared lest hee that gaue it would speedyly take it from him also setting before him the day of iudgement and aduising him not to subuert ecclesiasticall order nor to mingle the Romane Empire with the constitutions of the Church nor to bring the Arrian heresie into the Church of God he woulde neither heare them nor permit them to speake but greeuously bending his browes for that they had spoken and shaking his sword willed them to be caried away This was Constantius manner in conuenting Bishoppes and thus hee peruerted the fayth and good order of Christes Church vppon a selfe wil subiecting all Lawes both diuine and humane to his eger and erroneous fansie And who seeing him thus to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes president of ecclesiasticall iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that desolation of abomination foretold by Daniel Phi. You put thus to the text which Athanasius hath not Theo. But the right meaning of Athanasius woordes must bee gathered hy that which goeth before and followeth after Intelligentia dictorum sayth Hilarie ex praecedentibus consequentibus expectetur The vnderstanding of any speach must bee taken from the precedents and consequents The conclusion is not proued but by the premisses and therefore must bee measured by the premisses Athanasius bringeth many particulars to shewe in what sort Constantius ouer-ruled the Bishoppes and preferred his owne will before all constitutions and Canons of the Church and then inferreth Who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes and president of ecclesiasticall iudgements in that â—ort as hee doeth would not pronounce him to be Antichrist Now in what sort he did it the whole Epistle besides doeth declare thither must you repaire if you will see howe Constantius behaued himselfe in ecclesiasticall causes and consequently what thinges Athanasius and the rest misliked in him Phi. Howe did Constantius behaue himselfe say you Theo. That is worth the searching By that you shal see what cause Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius had to reproue him Phi. Say no more than you iustly proue Theo. No more shall bee sayde than your owne witnesses report I hope you will take them for direct and true deponents Phi. I doe not mistrust them Theo. Then heare them There were fiue principall points wherein Constantius dealt very intemperately wickedly as the writings of Athanasius and Hilarie doe testifie The often altering of the fayth the wresting from Synodes what hee would the banishing of Bishoppes vpon false accusations the intruding of others in their places against all order and the forcing of all sorts to communicate with the Arrians Of his altering the fayth Hilarie thus complayneth Fayth is come nowe to depend rather on the tyme than on the Gospel Our state is dangerous miserable that we haue nowe as many fayths as wils and as many doctrines as manners whiles faiths are either so written as we list or so vnderstood as we will We make euery yere and euery moneth a faith and still wee seeke a fayth as if there were no faith This O Constantius would I fayne knowe of thee what fayth at length thou beleeuest Thou hast changed so often that now I knowe not thy fayth That is hapned vnto thee which is wont to follow vnskilfull buylders euer disliking their own doings that thou stil pullest downe that which thou art stil setting vp Thou subuertest the olde with newe and the newe thou rentest in sunder with a newer correction and that which was once corrected thou condemnest with a second correction O thou wicked one what a mockerie doest
thou make of the Church Onely dogges returne to their vomit and thou compellest the Priestes of Christ to sup vp those thinges which they had spitte foorth and doest thou commaund them in their confessions to allow that which before they condemned What Bishops hand hast thou left innocent whose tongue hast thou not forced to falsehood whose heart hast thou not brought to the condemning of his former opinion Substrauisti voluntati tuae sed violentiae Thou hast subiected all to thy will nay to thy violence His violent oppressing of Bishops in their Synodes wresting from them what he would is witnessed by theÌ„ both Synodos contrahis conclusos vrbe vna minis terres fame debilitas hyeme conâ—icis dissimulatione deprauas Thou gatherest Synods saith Hilarie to him when they be closed in one citie thou terrifiest them with threates thou pynest them with hunger thou lamest them with cold thou deprauest them with dissembling He pretendeth saith Athanasius a iudgement or Synode of Bishops for a shewe but in the meane tyme hee doeth whatsoeuer hee list himselfe What libertie of perswasion what place for aduise is there when hee that contradicteth shall for his labour loose his life or his Countrie By that meanes hath the Emperour gathered so great a number of Bishoppes partly terrified with threates partly enticed with promises to graunt they woulde no longer communicate with Athanasius The order of such tyrannicall Synodes the Bishoppes of Aegypt Libia Pentapolis and Thebais doe liuely report in defence of Athanasius whereby wee shall see howe farre they bee from the moderation and regiment of Godly Princes With what face dare they call this conuent a Synode where the Lieutenant was president where the tormentour stoode ready where the Iaylour in steede of the Deacons of the Church brought in those that were called for where the Lieutenant spake the rest that were present kept silence or rather yeelded their seruice to him where that which the Bishoppes by common consent liked was reiected by the Lieutenant Hee sate and commaunded wee were led by souldiers yea the Lieutenant him selfe did whatsoeuer the Eusebians our aduersaries bid him To bee short what shewe of a Synode was there where death or banishment if Cesar sayd the word was decreed This violence Liberius toucheth in his answere to Constantius messenger If the Emperour seeke in deede to interpose his care for the peace of the Church or if he commaund those thinges which wee haue decreed for Athanasius to be reuersed let those things also that are decreed against him be reuersed and after let an ecclesiasticall Synod be called farre from the Palace where the Emperour is not preseÌ„t nor the Lieutenant intermedleth nor the iudge threatneth as Constantius doth in his Synodes but only the feare of God and institution of the Apostles suffice for all things And this dissimulation the Bishops were brought to by the Emperours meanes as your own author confesseth that Constantines sitting presideÌ„t among the Bishops and prescribing rules for their churches the most part of theÌ„ receiued with applause admiratioÌ„ whatsoeuer he said affirming it to be diuinely spokeÌ„ What maruaile then if Athanasius reproued Constantius for sitting among the bishops in their Synods as president of their iudgements ringleader or ruler of the bishops in their determinations when as hee oppressed the freedome of their voyces with terror corrupted the secrets of their harts with promises hindered the vprightnes of their proceedings with his presence Or if Leontius brake out into these words I woonder that hauing charge of other things thou enterest into these matters and that being gouernour of the campe and common welth thou prescribest those things to Bishops which pertaine only to Bishops Touching accusations of Bishops his tyrannie was greater He made his Palace the Consistorie for such causes and himselfe iudge of them where if any Arrian accused an other Bishop were the complaint neuer so false the proofe neuer so slender the man neuer so giltlesse the partie accused should not cleare himselfe no not so much as speake for himself but was sure though he were absent and innocent to die the death or suffer banishment Phi. You imagine this of your own head to make Constantius seeme a very tyrant Theo. The words which you brought do fully proue so much but that you cut them off from the rest to make them sound for your purpose Put the wordes that follow to theÌ„ and see whether they do not import that which I saide Now againe in steed of Ecclesiasticall cognition that is the triall of Bishops by their Synodes when they are accused he hath appointed his palace the iudgement seate of those causes and himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbitrer of those contentions or accusations and that which you would wonder at if at anie time hee perceiue the accusers to stagger or faile in their proofes hee himselfe plaieth the accuser so as the partie conuented is suffered to replie nothing by reason of his violence Which he plainly shewed in Athanasius cause For in that matter hearing the free speach of Paulinus Lucifer Eusebius and Dionysius all foure Bishops prouing by the recantation of Vrsacius and Valens that the crimes obiected to Athanasius were false and the sayings of Vrsacius and Valens which they themselues had reuoked ought not to be credited Constantius straightway rising vp said I am Athanasius accuser on my word beleeue those thinges that are obiected to him Here the Bishops answering againe howe can you accuse Athanasius in his absence Graunt you would accuse him the absence of the partie accused is a let that you can not proceed to iudgement The iudgement is not of any common-wealth matter that you should bee beleeued as Emperour but a Bishop is accused and in this case he that wil accuse and hee that is accused must be delt withall in like condition How can you accuse him that could not be present for the distance of place If you haue those thinges which you obiect by hearesay reason is you also beleeue that which Athanasius shall bring in defence of himselfe For if you beleeue these his accusers and beleeue not him it may be thought they say these thinges and accuse Athanasius to content and please you This when the Emperour heard expounding their honest allegations for his reproches he banished them and waxing the sharper against Athanasius gaue foorth a terrible edict that he should be punished and his churches deliuered to the Arrians and his aduersaries haue leaue to do what they would Hereby the Arians waxed so confident that they spared no man Whom haue they not touched saith Athanasius with their false accusations Whom haue they not intrapped Whom hath not Constantius banished that was accused by them When did he not giue them both audience and allowance Whom euer did he admit to saie any thing against them Or what did he
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
displacing the truth and maintaining falsehood vpon the Priestes warrant Phi. Let Princes ioyne themselues to the Church they can not mistake Theo. Shal they trust euery sect that claimeth to be the church or must they learn to know the true church of Christ from the counterfait Phi. The Church is soone knowen Theo. Not so soone as you thinke But we slip from our matter How Princes must be directed to light on truth is an other and the next question we be now discussing their authoritie to commaund for truth not their abilitie to discerne the truth and as far as I coniecture by your speaches you be loth to graunt that Princes may defende or assist the truth were it neuer so well knowen to bee the vndoubted truth of Christes church Phi. Yes we graunt they should defend the faith assist the church but we would haue them not go beyonde their calling Theo. No more woulde wee but the wordes of Osius as you presse them infer that Princes may not so much as meddle with defending the faith or assisting the church of Christ by their Princely power which euerteth as well your opinioÌ„ as ours If you will haue these wordes Meddle not in causes Ecclesiasticall to be taken as they lie without restriction ergo Princes must not meddle neither in word nor deede with the defending nor impugning the faith or church of Christ. And this you see were no sober perswasion but a franticke conclusion wrested out of Osius wordes against his meaning against all truth and your owne confession Who in his right wittes will saie to kings take you no care who defendeth or impugneth the church of Christ in your realmes let it not pertaine to you who list to bee religious or sacriligious in your kingdoms The actes of Constantine the Lawes of Iustinian the chapters of Charles the stories of the church the Scriptures themselues do clearly conuince that the best and most famous Princes haue medled in Ecclesiasticall matters the office and oth of a Prince as anon you shall heare require the same your own assertion is that Princes ought to defend the faith and assist the church and that they can not doe without medling in Ecclesiasticall matters Now choose whether you will thwart the whole church of God and disproue your own doctrine or else limit the wordes of Osius as we do by the particulars that moued him to reproue Constantius for his immoderate presumption The generall is absurd and refuteth your intention as well as ours for you would haue Princes medle with the publishing assisting and executing of your pleasures and iudgementes and wee would haue them yeelde that seruice to Christ and his truth which you chalenge to your selues the limitation let it be what it will agreeable to the circumstances can not hurt vs. Medle not in causes Ecclesiasticall in such sort as thou doest which rebuketh his tyrannie medle not neither appoint vs what wee shall doe that is medle not with appointing and directing vs in these thinges but learne them rather of vs which represseth his insolencie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis thrust not thy selfe into those thinges which belong to the Priestes and not to the Princes charge which is Osius owne distinction or else ne te misceas interpose not thy self that is thy resolute will and power to commaund compell vs to subscribe against Athanasius an innocent and to communicate with Arians condemned heretikes which were the two points that Constantius exacted of Osius All these constructions import that Constantius medled in that sort and with those thinges that he should not but they doe not exclude Princes from establishing the truth punishing sacrileges schisms and heresies which is medling with matters ecclesiasticall Phi. Leontius is as earnest against him as Osius I maruell saith hee to Constantius thy vocation being for other thinges thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely and yet thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I maruell that professing to seeke a truth you be not ashamed to temper and alter your witnesses in this sort You cut off the first part that would expound the whole and the latter you wilfully corrupt to force it to your purpose The place of Suidas is this Constantius at a time sitting chiefe among the Bishops and going about to set them orders for their churches the most part receiued with applause and admiration whatsoeuer he saide affirming it to bee most excellently spoken Leontius helde his peace whom when the Emperour asked why doest thou onely of all the rest keepe silence I maruel saith Leontius that hauing charge for other thinges thou entrest into these matters and that being appointed ouer the campe and common-wealth thou prescribeth to the Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops In steede of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you say Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely that word onely is your owne and not your Authors and so be the rest that follow Thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiastical causes Leontius saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou prescribest vnto Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops This is no good dealing with Fathers to forge them and frame them to your fansies Leontius had some reason to say as he did Constantius was sitting chiefe among the Bishops prescribing them rules and orders for their churches in thinges that were both beyond his cunning and besides his calling What things those were the story doth not expresse but saith such things as belonged onely to Bishops Now why should not Leontius thinke that Princes in some thinges had no skill to direct Bishops neither might prescribe what rules and orders they listed for the churches of God And yet your author is not ancient that reporteth this Suidas liued twelue hundred yeares after Christ a man learned but of very late time and far from the credit of antiquitie Leontius himselfe if all be true that Suidas writeth of him had no more discretion than needed For when the Empresse sent to speake with him he returned this answere If thou wilt haue me come to thee let mee haue the reuerence due to Bishoppes that when I come in thou by and by descend from thy throne and reuerently meete me and submit thy head vnder my handes to receiue my blessing and then will I sit and thou shalt stand manerly by and not offer to sit till I bid thee If these couenantes please thee I wil come A high point of diuinitie that a subiect will not come to his Prince but on these saueâ—ie conditions Such fables you seeke to further your cause and yet all wil not helpe Phi. I trust you wil make more account of Hilarie whose words are these We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge be giuen to al iudges of prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurp the hearing of
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
Then I graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion Theo. You graunt it as an euident trueth confirmed by the Scriptures confessed by the fathers reported by the Stories of the Church and infinitly repeated in the lawes and edicts of religious and auncient Emperours made for persons and causes ecclesiasticall Or if you doubt any part of this diuision haue recourse to the textes places before produced and if euery part be not fully proued refuse the whole Phi. I see they did and therefore I resolue my selfe they might commaund in those cases Theo. As well Bishops as others Phi. God forbid Princes should commaund Bishops in matters of religion Haue you forgotten what Osius saide to Constantius Do not commaund vs in this kinde Theo. Osius and others were commaunded by Constantius to condemn Athanasius against all order of equitie and their certaine knowledge of his innocencie For Osius was present and president in the Councell of Sardica where the cause of Athanasius was fully debated by the consent of both Emperours East and West and his accusers proued to bee wicked slaunderers and in that case he might iustly say to Constantius Commaund vs not in this kind or in these things but learne the trueth of them rather at our hands that were by when these matters were narowly sifted and Athanasius clearly discharged from all that could be saide against him And what if Osius had not limited his wordes to these particular respects as in sight he doth shall one poore place thinke you beare downe al the proofes examples and authorities that I haue shewed you to the contrarie where religious and auncient Emperours appointed prescribed commanded Bishops yea the chiefest Bishops in matters of doctrine and discipline Constantine prescribed the bishops what was profitable for the Church and commaunded the Councel of Tyrus to discusse the crimes obiected to Athanasius and threatned to banish him if hee failed to present himselfe before the Synode to teach him what it was to withstand the precept of the chiefe ruler defending the trueth And vpon complaint made by Athanasius against them hee sent for the whole Councell with this commaundement You must all of you resort hither to shewe the reason of your doings and to giue accompt howe sincerely and soundly you haue iudged and that before mee whom you shall not denie to bee Gods syncere minister and when Arius should be restored this was the stile that he vsed to Athanasius knowing our pleasure We charge you to suffer such as will to returne to the Church and after commaunded Alexander Bishoppe of Constantinople to receiue Arius to the communion Valentinian the elder rehearsing the Nicene fayth in his Edict added Our power hath commaunded the same to bee preached And when the people of Millan cried to haue Ambrose for their Bishop though hee were not yet baptized the same prince commanded he should be presently baptized and consecrated notwithstanding the Canons were strong against it S. Paul seemeth not willing that a nouice should be a Bishoppe Gratian commanded the Arrian Bishoppes to bee thrust from their Churches and by vigor of his Princely Lawes depriued the Bishoppe that rebaptized of his Priestly function Theodosius the elder commanded the followers of his Edict Bishops and others to be counted Christian Catholikes and for the rest that beleeued otherwise he sayd Propelli iubemus wee commaunded them to bee driuen from their Churches and when Demophilus a Bishoppe refused to embrace the Nicene fayth the Emperour in his owne person replied then I commaunde thee to forgoe thy Churches It well be seemed a religious Prince sayth Gregorie to commaunde Bishoppes in such things And Charles appointing the Bishoppes what doctrine they should teach sayth This we charge and enioyne you the more precisely because we know that false teachers shall come in the later dayes And for the reformation of certaine abuses in the Church hee keepeth this tenor of speach Know ye sacred fathers this must be forbidden in your Diocesses The rest of the Lawes Edicts and precepts of Godly Princes for causes ecclesiastical which I before alleaged in no small number doe they not either comprehend al men and by consequent Bishoppes or else directly and expressely commaunded Bishoppes by name If those bee not sufficient you may shall haue more Theodosius the younger sent his letters to the Patriarke of Alexandria for the seconde Councel of Ephesus with these wordes Wee decree that the most holy Bishoppes meeting together this vayne doubt may bee discussed and the true Catholike fayth confirmed Therefore Your holines bringing with you tenne of the most reuerend Metropolitanes that bee within your prouince and tenne other holy Bishoppes well accompted of for their learning and conuersation shall hasten with all speede to meete the rest at Ephesus by the first of August next no Bishoppe besides the foresaide troubling the sacred Synode If any Bishoppe faile to come to the place prefixed at the time appointed hee shall haue no excuse neither with GOD nor with vs. As for Bishoppe Theodorete whom wee commaund to attend at home on his owne Church wee determine that hee shall bee none of your assemblie vnlesse the whole councell thinke good to haue him one But if any dissent We commaund that the Synode sit without him and dispatch those thinges which we haue appointed them And in his second letters to the same Bishoppe Because wee suspect that some of Nestorius fauourers will doe their best to be present at this Councell therefore wee thinke needefull to aduertise you and the whole Synode that not onely in respect of Theodorete but of all others which haue ought to do in your Councell we giue you the preeminence and chiefe authoritie And those that adde or diminish any thing to or from the Nicene fathers the fathers since that assembled at Ephesus Wee suffer them not to presume any thing in this sacred Synode but wil haue them subiected to your iudgement because wee haue appointed this Synode for that purpose In the very same councell hee likewise commaunded that those Bishoppes which not long before sate in iudgement vppon Eutiches should be present but silent and giue no voyces with the rest as iudges but expect the cōmon determination of all the rest of the sacred fathers And also commaunded that they should neither say neither do any thing in the sacred Councel vntill the right fayth were concluded Martian charged the 630. Bishops in the great Councell of Chalcedon that None of them should dare dispute of the natiuitie of our Lord and Sauiour Christ otherwise than the 318. fathers of Nice deliuered Eusebius Bishoppe of Dorilaeum at the same time put vp a supplication to Martian Valentinian the third against Dioscorus Patriarke of Alexandria with these wordes In most humble wise we beseech
your Maiesties that you will cōmand the reuerend Bishop Dioscorus to answere to those things that we lay to his charge for confirming a wicked heresie deposing vs vniustly directing your sacred precept to oecumenical councel of Bishops to heare the matter between vs and the said Dioscorus and certifie your Maiesties of the whole cause that you may do therein what shal please your Graces Iustinian in his sixt Constitution prescribing what persons he will haue made Bishops and how they shal be qualified and examined before they be admitted threatneth in sharp manner He that doth any thing besides this which we haue appointed both he that is ordered shal be depriued of his function and he that did order him shall loose his Bishopricke for offending this law The like punishment he setteth downe for Simonie Though sayth Iustinian he haue all other things that we before required yet if hee procure a Bishopricke by mony or mony worth Let him knowe that hee shall be turned out of his Bishoprike and doe his orderer this pleasure that he also shall be remoued from his office and from the Clergie So for ordering and not examining that was obiected against the Person If one come to bee made a Bishop and any man contradict and offer to lay somewhat to his charge Let him not be ordered before such complaints be discussed And if he that should make him hasten to consecration after such contradiction without examining the matter Let him know that which he doth shall be vtterly void and also he that goeth against our law shall be depriued of his Priestly function and he that ordered him without trial shall likewise be remooued from his Episcopall dignitie So for absence from his church after he is Bishop This also we define that no Bishop bee so hardie as to absent himselfe from his Church aboue one whole yere If he be away longer than a yere let the Patriarke of that region cite him orderly to returne If he continue disobedient let him be clean expelled from the sacred number of Bishops And generally for all matters comprised in that constitution The things which we haue decreed for the preseruation of ecclesiastical order and state agreeable to the tenor and prescript of the sacred rules let the most holy Patriarkes of euery Prouince the Metropolitanes and the rest of the most reuerend Bishops and Clerks see that they keepe for euer hereafter sure and inuiolable the punishment to him that transgresseth these things shal be to be seuered quite from God and excluded from his Priestly degree In his sixteene constitution commaunding Clerks to be remoued from one Church to an other till the iust number which he decreed were supplied in euery Church he writeth to the Patriarke of Constantinople in this wise Your blessednes shall endeuour to put in execution the things which we haue thought decent for the profite of the sacred and holy Churches And if any thing be attempted to the contrarie let him assure himselfe that durst enter orders against this our law that it doe him no good In his 57 Constitutiō prohibiting the sacred mysteries to be celebrated in priuat Chappels these things saith he we commaund to the most holy Archbishop and vniuersall Patriarke of this Citie In his 123 Constitution you shal find examples enough of his Princely prohibitions and commaundements to Bishops for matters concerning the regiment of the Church For first appointing how Bishoppes shall bee chosen and that the Person elected shall before his admission deliuer a confession of the true faith subscribed with his owne hand and recite the praiers vsed in the sacred communion holy Baptisme and sweare that hee neither hath giuen nor promised nor will giue any thing to those that elected him nor to him that ordereth him nor to any other the rather to attaine his ordering he addeth If any be made Bishope against this obseruation as well he shall be cast out of his Bishoprike as the other that presumed to create him against this forme shall bee seuered one yere from the sacred ministerie and shall forfeit all his goods to the Church where he is Bishop But if any man consecrate one that is accused before hee examine the matter both he that is made and he that did make him shal bee depriued of their episcopall functions Aboue al things This we decree to bee kept that no man be made a Bishop by rewards And therefore as well hee that giueth as he that taketh and he that would bee the meanes to worke it shal be degraded And so going on with Diuers ecclesiastical Chapters he saith We forbid the Bishops to leaue their Churches and to trauell into other coasts And we commaund that in euery Prouince there be yerely kept a Synode where causes of faith and doubts concerning the Canons and administration of ecclesiasticall things as also touching Bishops Priests Deacons and other Clerks and Rulers of Monasteries and Moncks either for their liues or other things needing reformation shall be handled and in conuenient manner examined and corrected according to the sacred Canons and OVR imperial LAVVES Besides we command that all Bishoppes and Priests doe celebrate the sacred oblation and praiers in the holy Baptisme not secretly but with a loud voice so as the faithfull people may heare the religious Priests and Bishops knowing that if they neglect any of these things they shall answer for it in the dreadfull iudgement of the great GOD and our Sauiour Christ neither will wee vnderstanding thereof passe it ouer or leaue it vnpunished We also forbid the most religious Bishops Priests and all other Clerks to play at tables or to companie with such gamsters or to be present at spectacles If any of them offend in this point we command that he bee suspended from his function for three yeres Likewise we forbid all Bishops and Priests to separate any man from the communion til a cause be shewed for which the Canons wil it to be doone If any man separate an other from the communion against this law the partie that is greeued vniustly shal be absolued and receaued to the communion by an higher Priest And he that durst excommunicate vniustly shall be put from the communion by the Bishop that is next aboue him as long as it seemeth good to that superiour Moreouer if the Bishops of the same Synode haue any controuersie betweene them touching ether ecclesiastical right or causes first their Metropolitane with two other Bishops of the same Synod shall determine the matter And if either part find fault with that iudgment then shal the Patriarke of that Prouince heare the cause and define that which is consonant to the canons ecclesiastical and our lawes neither part hauing leaue to cōtradict his sentence If a Clerke or any other of what cause soeuer appeale from a Bishop first the Metropolitane shall iudge the matter according to the sacred canons
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
breath ergo the Prince conferreth life and breath to thē Or the Prince permitteth her Subiectes to beleeue in God and relieue ech others ergo the Prince conferreth faith and charitie to them Phi. It giueth her to do that which is more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or lawes authorised onely by her selfe which waie to worship and serue God how and in what forme to minister the Sacramentes to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which waie she will be gouerned in soule Theo. That Princes may prescribe what faith they list what seruice of God they please what forme of administring the Sacraments they thinke best is no part of our thought nor point of our doctrine And yet that Princes may by their lawes prescribe the christian faith to be preached the right seruice of God in spirit and truth to be vsed the Sacraments to be ministred according to the Lords institution this is no absurditie in vs to defend but impietie rather in you to withstande And that Princes may punish both Bishoppes and others for heresie dissention and all kinde of iniquitie by banishing and commaunding them to bee remoued from their Churches which you call depriuing cā not now be coūted absurd vnlesse you reiect the stories of the church and lawes of christian Princes which I before cited as absurd For there shall you finde that Emperours by their Lawes and Edictes haue commaunded Bishops to be iudicially depriued by other bishops actually displaced by their temporal Magistrates as well for erronious teaching as vicious liuing Phi. When you giue princes supreme power in matters of religion you giue thē leaue to do what they lift The. If you affirm that of vs your report is vtterly vntrue if you infer it vpon vs your reason is very ridiculous For what a fond illation is this Princes be supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iurisdictiō ergo princes may lawfully do what they wil. Phi. We say not lawfully but if there be none to cōtrole thē none can let thē to do what they list The. The dreadful iudgements of God not the leud practises of Popes must bridle Princes frō doing euill If they feare not a reuenger in heauen whom they can not escape they will neuer regard a conspirator in earth whom they may soone preuent yet we dispute not what tyrāts de facto wil do but what godly Princes of dutie should of right may do This is it that we seek for therfore you must conclude this or nothing Phi. You giue thē authority to make lawes punish for religion without anie mētion of truth or error The. The oth expresseth not their duty to God but ours to thē as they must be obeied whē they ioin with truth so must they be endured whē they fal into error which side soeuer they take either obediēce to their wils or submissiō to their swords is their due by Gods law that is al which our oth exacteth And yet when we professe thē to be gouernors that word restraineeh thē from their own lusts referreth thē to Gods ordināce For they which resist God impugn the truth oppresse the righteous assist error fauor impietie be no gouernors vnder God as all princes oughtto bee but tyrantes against God not bearers but wilful abusers of the sword which God hath appointed for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well And this though it be not expressed yet is it euer imploied in the very scepters swords thrones of princes For dominiō power maiesty belōg of right to god alone are by him imparted to Princes with this condition to this end that they shold raign vnder him not ouer him cōmand for him not against him be honored obeied after him not before him therefore this quarrell sauoreth not of ignorance but of malice when you say we giue Princes power to do what they wil in matters pertaining to God his seruice We reiect detest that sinful assertion more than you do In deede we say that the Pope may not pull Princes crownes frō their heads nor seeke to master them with contriuing rebellions treasons against them whiles hee pretendeth to depose them In this onely sense wee defende them to bee supreme that is not at libertie to do what they lift without regard of truth or right but without superiour on earth to represse them with violent meanes and to take their kingdomes from them Phi. It maketh the bodie aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdom aboue Christes mysticall bodie It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastour it giueth her power to commaund them whom wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the iudges yea of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh Theo. I am loth to bring you out of loue with your owne conceits otherwise I neuer saw more boldnes lesse soundnes in any man If we did preferre earthly things before heauenly you might iustly charge vs that we set the body aboue the soule but betweene Princes Priests that comparison is foolish except you thinke Priests to be without bodies Princes without soules which were a mery deuise The spirituall regiment which Christ hath ouer the faithfull in his Church is infinitely before the temporal regiment of Princes ouer their subiects But if by this you would inferre that good Princes may not punish euill Priestes you deface godlinesse and trueth in Princes as temporall and exact wickednesse and error in Priestes as spirituall which is more than absurde As for the right functions of Preachers and Princes if that bee the matter you speake of for you speake so doubtfully that wee can gather no certaintie what you meane know you that as in spiritual perfection and consolation the Preacher excelleth the Prince by many decrees God hauing appointed Preachers not Princes to bee the sowers of his seede messenges of his grace stewardes of his mysteries so for externall power and authoritie to compell punish which is the point that we stande on God hath preferred the Prince before the Priest so long as the Prince commaundeth that which God alloweth And in this case wee make not temporall aboue spirituall as you tricke it with termes but auouch that the same God who teacheth the simple and leadeth the willing by the Preachers mouth driueth the negligent and forceth the froward by the Princes sword which himselfe that is a spirit and the father of spirites hath ordained to that end The mystical bodie of Christ which is his church containeth not only Prists bishops but all the faithfull in heauenly graces inward vertues far exceedeth all earthly kingdomes and yet hath God himselfe authorized the sword on earth in Princes handes to be keepers
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
them all obedience with armed violence to take their swords from them but thereof more hereafter In the meane time your argument is very foolish Priestes must not deliuer the Sacramentes but on such conditions as God hath limited ergo Priests be superiour to Princes You might haue concluded ergo God is superiour to them both in that he prescribeth how the one shal deliuer the other take the Seales of his grace but for the Priest no such illation can be made For were you Porter in any Princes palace and commaunded that no man Noble nor other shoulde enter the Court with weapon woulde you thence conclude your selfe superiour to all the Nobles and counsellours of the Land because you might not suffer thē to come within the gates except they first lay their swords aside or would you rather excuse your selfe that the Princes precept being streit and you a seruaunt you could not choose but do your dutie and put them in minde of your Lord and masters pleasure Phi. Our case is not like The. You say truth You haue not so much reason to make Priestes superiour to Princes as this Officer hath to prefer himselfe before all other persons Princes haue soueraign power ouer the goods liues bodies of Priestes Nobles haue not ouer the meanest attendant in the Princes Court Princes must be obeyed or endured with meekenesse and reuerence offer they neuer so hard dealing to their Preachers and Pastours That submission no man oweth to any subiect be he neuer so Noble And therefore euerie seruant in the Princes house hath better cause to aduance himselfe before al the Nobles of the Realme than you haue to set the Priest aboue the Prince whom God himselfe hath pronounced superiour to the Priestes and to whom he will haue euerie soule bee they Monkes Priestes or Bishoppes to be subiect with al submission duetie Much lesse is this a warrant for you to depose Princes and to pursue them with armes against the preceptes of God against the generall and continuall obedience and order of Christs Church as you shal perceiue in place where for this present go on with your absurd lies I shoulde haue said absurdities Phi. It derogateth from Christes Priesthood which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie Theo. Call you this a derogation from Christes Priesthood if the Pope may not tread Princes vnder his feet Your Seminaries must needes be famous that coine vs such conclusions Phi. Neuer mocke at our Seminaries you shall finde them too well furnished for your stoare Theo. So wee thinke your learning is so strange it passeth our intelligence Wee fooles conceiue not how these thinges hang togither For first what meane you by this The Priesthood of Christ in his owne person is aboue his kingly dignitie He is king of glorie in that he is the sonne of God can you name any thing in Christ that is aboue his diuine dignitie Your doctrine is verie curious if it be not dangerous The glorie of the sonne of God as hee is owner and ruler of all thinges in heauen and earth hath no title nor name aboue it As a Priest he purged our sinnes in humilitie as a king hee nowe doeth and euer shall raigne in the highest degree of celestiall and euerlasting glorie His Priesthood washed our vncleannesse in this life His kingdome placeth and preserueth men and Angels in perfect and eternall blisse If you speake this in respect of vs that the Priesthood of Christ which washeth our sinnes and saueth vs from the wrath to come is more comfortable and accceptable to our weake consciences by reason of our guiltinesse and daily transgressions than the power wherewith hee subdueth his enemies besides the straungenesse of your speach that his Priestood should bee aboue his kinglie dignitie in his owne person note the losenesse of your argument The Priesthood of Christ in fauour and mercie to vs ward is aboue his power ergo the Prince must be subiect to the Pope May not we much rather conclude Christ cōpelleth punisheth as a king not as a Priest ergo power to commaund punish belongeth to the kingdom not to the Priesthood that is to the Magistrate not to the minister Phi. It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holie communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as manie partes not communicant one with an other nor holding one of an other as there be worldlie kingdoms differing by Customs Lawes manners ech from other which is of much pernicious sequele and against the verie natiue quality of the most perfect coniunction society vnitie and intercourse of the whole Church euery Prouince and Person thereof togither Theo. It is a most pernicious fansie to thinke the communion of Christes Church dependeth vpon the Popes person or regimēt and that diuerse nations and countries differing by customes lawes maners so they hold one the same rule of faith in the band of peace can not be parts of the Catholike Church communicant one with an other perfectly vnited in spirite and truth ech to other And fie on your follies that racke your Creede rob Christ of his honor and the Church of all her comfort and securitie whiles you make the vnitie and societie of Christes members to consist in obedience to the Bishop of Rome and not in coherence with the sonne of God The communion of Saintes and neere dependaunce of the Godly ech of other and all of their heade standeth not of externall rites customes and manners as you woulde fashion out a Church obseruing the Popes Canons and deseruing his pardones as his deuote and zealous children but in beleeuing the same trueth tasting of the same grace resting on the same hope calling on the same God reioycing in the same spirite whereby they bee sealed sanctified and preserued against the daie of redemption And why may not Christians in all kingdomes countries haue this communion and fellowshippe though they lacke your holy fathers beads blessinges and such like bables To what ende you alleadge S. Augustine in that place which you quote we cannot so much as coniecture you must speake plainly what you would haue we be not bounde to make search for your meaning As for the communion of the Catholike Church it is not broken by the varietie and diuersitie of rites customes Lawes and fashions which many places and Countries haue different ech from others except they be repugnant to faith or good manners as S. Augustine largely debateth in his epistle to Ianuarius and Irineus whē the bishop of Rome would haue cut the East Churches from the communion of the West for obseruing Easter after an other maner order than their brethrē did sharpely reproued him and shewed him that Polycarpus and Anicetus dissenting in the same case Communionem
inter se habuerunt were this notwithstanding ioyned in communion pacem in vniuersa Ecclesia tum seruantes tum non seruantes retinuerunt and both sides kept the band of peace in the Catholike Church For the discrepant obseruation of fasting before Easter he saith the like Alij vnum sibi diem ieiunandum esse putant alij duos alij plures alij quadraginta horas Nihilo minus tamen omnes illi pacem inter se retinuerunt retinemus etiamnuÌ„ dissonantia ieiunij fidei concordiam commendat Some fast one daie some two dayes some more some fourtie houres and yet all these continued in peace among themselues and to this day we continue the same and our difference in fasâ—â—â—g commendeth our concord in faith Socrates hath a whole chapter purposely made to shew what diuersitie there was in the Church of Christ about Lent the Lordes Supper marying baptizing praying fasting and such like Ecclesiasticall obseruances and yet all those places and countries parts of the Catholik Church and communicant one with an other in Christian peace and vnitie Operosum molestum fuerit imò impossibile omnes ecclesiarum quae per ciuitates regiones sunt ritus conscribere It were an hard and laborious thing saith he yea an impossible to write al the different customes and manners of the Churches in euerie citie and countrie Qui eiusdem sunt fidei de ritibus inter se dissentiunt They that are of the same faith differ in their rites So that this is no breach of the Christian and Catholike communion which all the faithfull ought to keepe among themselues with their head the author and finisher of their faith Phi. It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders Theo. Why so Because your holy father can not marchandize the soules empt the purses of men as he was wont to do What Sectes Schismes disorders or heresies can there arise if we defend it lawfull for Princes to commaÌ„d for truth within their own Realmes Nay rather hath not the subiecting of Princes to the Popes pride wrought the vtter ruine and decaie of the West Church Where Rulers be many it is easie to finde some good and they wil resist that which is euill and reforme that which is amisse where one ruleth al if he fal as he quickly may he draweth the whole Church into the same danger and error with him Phi. But the successour of Peter can not erre and therefore the Church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ praied that it might not faile Theo. Proue that the Pope can not erre and we will graunt not onely this but all your religion besides to be true Phi. What you wil not Theo. The word is spoken accept the condition when you list Till you do we prefer Cyprians iudgement before yours Therefore deare brother saith he writing to Stephanus Bishop of Rome is there a plentifull number of Priestes in the church ioyned togither with the knot of mutuall concorde and bande of peace that if any of our companie make a breach and rent and wast the the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and pitifull Pastours reduce the Lordes sheepe to the flocke againe The number of Rulers in his opinon is no cause of sectes and dissentions but rather a remedie prouided in the Church against disorder and heresie Phi. It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and whatsoeuer borne out of the Realme forrainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs that there can be no iurisdiction ouer English-mens soules but proceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Theo. Your force is almost spent when you come to these frozen and woodden obiections Wee call those that were borne and liue out of the Realme forrainers What else should wee call them And such as pretend Peters keies to dispose crownes and remoue Princes from their seates ioyning rebellion with remission of sinnes we thinke them vsurpers and abusers of Ecclesiastical iurisdiction A maruelous ouersight in deed We might haue spared you some sharper and quicker termes but by these wee thought good to manifest to the world your iniurious and irreligious drift to be masters of earthly kingdomes by winding and turning Peters keies at your pleasure Phi. Your words exclude Christ his Apostles in as much as they were and be forrainers from hauing any iurisdiction ouer England Theo. It is pitie you can not cauil We striue for iudicial authoritie to depriue Princes you vrge vs with Apostolike power to preach the Gospell and remit sinnes Wee speake of that which is at this present you tell vs what was fifteene hundred yeares since We reason of States in earth you run to Saints in heauen We reiect the Bishop of Rome you wrangle with vs as though wee refused the sonne of God Doth not matter faile you when you flie for helpe to such vnsauory toies Phi. Your oth is so absurdly conceiued that though you ment not to exclude Christ and his Apostles yet in wordes you doe For if No forraine person Prelat State nor Potentate hath nor ought to haue any iurisdiction power superiority preeminence or authority ecclesiasticall or spiritual within this Realme of England surely neither Christ nor his Apostles because they were be forrainers haue or ought to haue any Theo. Not our speaking but your wresting and wrenching of our wordes is far fet most absurd For first where you auouch Christ himself to be a forrainer whoÌ„ we acknowledge to be the right inheritor owner of the whole worlde yea the mighty Lord king of heauen earth in gibing at vs you iest on his birth as if Christ were a forrainer to the Gentiles because he tooke flesh among the Iewes And though you might haue takâ—n some aduantage at his cradle yet you should haue remembred that the Creator is no forrainer to the worke of his handes as likewise the heade is not to the members nor God incarnate to the sonnes of men As for his Apostles in deede whiles they liued on earth they were forrainers but that their spirits now present with God raigning in blisse with Christ bee forrainers is a mad speech of yours no meaning of ours You must send vs word from Rhemes how soules can be French Spanish Scottish or English These with vs be distinctions of couÌ„tries not of souls after death til your new doctrine came wee tooke them to cease With a little helpe I thinke you will make vs some men soules and some women soules you be so skilfull in these conceites Againe might the soules in heauen be called or counted forrainers you must tell vs what ecclesiasticall power authoritie they now exercise on earth We do not affirme that forrainers neuer had any such power in England the Apostles had their commission from
father and his Cardinals were eighteene yeres prouoking working the Princes States adherent to them to spill christian blood to make hauocke of al places persons that were not â—â—â—dient to the Bishop of Rome yet you count it some great absurditie for vs to reiect this Councell as not generall Phi. You acknowledge no subiection to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishops Patriarkes Apostles Christ all because they were be forrainers not hauing iurisdiction or sufficieÌ„t authoritie to define against English Sectaries or Errors And this when a Realme or Prince is in error taketh away all meanes of reducing theÌ„ to the truth againe Theo. To Christ his Apostles we acknowledge more subiection than you doe We honor adore him as the true son of God equall with his father in authority maiesty We make him no forrainer to this Realm as you do but professe him to be the only master redeemer ruler of his church as wel in this as in all other Nations To whom Princes Preachers are but seruaÌ„ts the preachers to propose the Princes to execute his will commandements whom all that wil be saued must beleeue obey aboue against all Councels Tribunals be they regall or papall if they dissent from his word The preachings writings of the Apostles we receiue with greater reuereÌ„ce exacter obedience than you do We giue no man leaue to dispence against theÌ„ which your law witnesseth of the Pope Papa coÌ„tra ApostoluÌ„ dispensat The Pope dispeÌ„seth against the Apostle We neuer said as Pigghius saith The Apostles wrote certaine things not that their writinges should bee aboue our faith and religion but rather vnder Wee confesse The Apostles were men allowed of God to whom the Gospel should be committed therefore we receiue the word from theÌ„ not as the word of man but as it is in deed the word of God assuring our selues it is the power of God to saue all that beleeue detesting your erronious and heynous presumptions that take vppon you to adde alter diminish and dispence with that which the spirite of Christ spake as well by the pennes as mouthes of the Apostles To Councels such as the Church of Christ was wont by the helpe of her religious Princes to call we owe communion and brotherly concord so long as they make no breach in faith nor in christian charitie subiection and seruitude wee owe them none the blessed Angels professe themselues to bee fellowe seruantes with the Sainctes on earth what are you then that with your Tribunals and iurisdictions woulde bee Lordes and Rulers ouer Christes inheritance Peter saith Cyprian whom the Lord made first choice of on whom he built his church when Paul after stroue with him for Circumcision did not take vpon him nor chalenge any thing insolentlie or arrogantly nor aduaunce him-selfe as Primate and one to whom the nouices and puinees shoulde bee subiect And as it were in open defiance of your Tribunals and iurisdictions which Stephen the Bishoppe of Rome began then to exercise he directeth the Bishops assembled in a Councell at Carthage on this wise It resteth that of this matter wee speake euerie one of vs what we thinke iudging no man nor remouing any man from the communion though he be not of our minde For none of vs maketh himselfe Bishop of Bishops or by terrour like a tyrant forceth his collegues to yeeld him obedience whether they will or no considering euerie Bishop by reason of his Episcopal power and freedom hath the rule of his owne iudgement as one that can not bee iudged of an other nor hee him-selfe iudge an other but let vs al expect the tribunal or iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only solely hath power to set vs in the gouernment of his Church and to iudge of our actes And because you be so earnest with vs for subiection to Tribunals abroade to bee plaine with you it is boyes plaie before you name them or proue that wee owe them any subiection to skore it vppe as an absurditie that wee acknowledge none vnto them and yet least you shoulde thinke vs the first that refused Tribunals abroade you shall see that ancient and worthy fathers haue done the like before vs. What Tribunals abroade did Cyprian and the 80. Bishoppes at Carthage with him acknowledge when hee saide as you hearde Christus vnus solus habet potestatem de actu nostro iudicandi Christ only and none else hath authoritie to iudge of our act And agaiâ—e Episcopus ab alâ—o iudicari non potest cum non ipse nec alterum iudicare A Bishop may not be iudged of others nor iudge others Expectemus vniuersi iudicium Christi Let vs all both abroad and at home expect the iudgement of Christ. What Tribunals abroade did Polycrates and the Bishops of Asia with him acknowledge when hee replied to the Bishoppe of Rome threatning to excommunicate him and the rest Non turbaborijs quae terrendi gratia obijciuntur I passe not for these threats that are offered to terrifie me What Tribunals abroad did S. Aug. the 216. African Bishops acknowledge when they decreed that none Appealing ouer the Sea to Tribunals abroad should be receiued to the communion within Africa And when they repelled the Bishop of Rome laboring to place his Legates a latere within their Prouince willed him nâ—t to bring Fumosum seculi Typhum That smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ What Tribunals abroad did the Bishop of the Britons acknowledge when they proued to August the Moncke that was sent from Rome that they ought him no subiection Nay what Tribunal abroad did Greg. the Bishop of Rome chalenge when he wrote thus to Eulogius Bishop of Alexandria Vestra beatitudo mihi loquitur diceÌ„s sicut iussistis quod verbuÌ„ iussionis peto à meo auditu remouete quia scio quis sum qui estis Loco enim mihi fratres estis moribus patres NoÌ„ ergo iussi sed quae vtilia visa sunt iudicare curauâ— Your blessednes in your letters saith to me as you coÌ„maÌ„ded which word of coÌ„maÌ„ding I beseech you remoue froÌ„ mine eares because I know who I am what you are In calling you are brethreÌ„ to me in behauior fathers I did not theÌ„ coÌ„mand you but aduertise you what semed best to me The same Greg. teacheth you what it is for any one man to require vniuersall subiection of the whole church as your holie father now doth If Paul saith he would not haue the meÌ„bers of the Lords body to be subiect to any heads but to Christ no not to the Apostles themselues what wilt thou answere to Christ the head of the vniuersall church in the last daie of iudgement which goest about to haue all his members in subiection to thee by the
answere Quando se nostro iudicio quibusuis acceptis literis cum sciat damnandum esse committet Qui si accersendus esset ab ijs melius fieret quimagis proximi non longo terrarum spacio videntur esse dsâ—iuncti When will hee commit himselfe to our iudgement write I what letters I will whereas hee knoweth hee shal be condemned And if hee were to bee sent for they may better doe it that are neerer to him and not so farre distant from him as I am Innocentius 400. yeeres after Christ confesseth hee had not sufficient authoritie to call one poore Briton out of this Realme And two hundred yeeres after that the Bishoppes of Britannie woulde yeelde no subiection to him that was sent from Rome nor accept him for their Archbishoppe And euen their manner of baptizing obseruing Easter and other ecclesiasticall institutions contrarie to the rites and customes of the Church of Rome as Augustine the Monke then obiected vnto them make manifest proofe that they were neuer vnder the iurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome Fourthly the Pope coueting and affecting to bee that hee was not disdayned and refused euer since the conquest to bee that hee was and so by his owne fact hath extinguished his owne right if any hee gate in the time of the Saxons who to settle themselues in the possession of this Realme after the chasing out of the Britons were soone entreated to receiue the Bishoppe of Rome for their Patriarke And seeing the headshippe of the Church which hee violently and wrongfully enforced vpon the Normans by Gods Lawe is not his no reason hee should now clayme by his Patriarkshippe which himselfe aspiring to higher tytles so many hundred yeres disused and contemned Lastly the Kinges of England for the most part of them from the Conquerour to this day in the right of their Crowne haue either resisted or rebated the iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall which the Pope claymed in this Lande Wherefore hee was neuer any long tyme in full and quiet possession of his pretensed power in this Realme And her Maiesties Father and brother excluding him both from that authoritie which hee woulde haue ouer this Iland as vnlawfull and repugnant to the woord of God and also from that which for these fiue hundred yeeres and vpward himselfe neglected and omitted had Gods Lawes and mans Lawes for the warrant of their doings and for their leauing him no kind of power or preeminence within this Realme So that his Uicarshippe to Christ must bee prooued by stronger and playner euidence than yet you haue shewed before wee may graunt it And as for his Patriarkeshippe which you woulde nowe take holde of by Gods Lawe hee hath none in this Realme for sixe hundred yeeres after Christ hee had none for the last sixe hundred as looking to greater matters hee woulde haue none aboue or against the sword which God hath ordayned hee can haue none to the subuersion of the fayth and oppression of his brethren in reason right and equitie hee should haue none You must seeke farther for subiection to his Tribunal this Land oweth him nonâ— Phi. Finally if this iurisdiction spirituall bee alwayes of right a sequele of the crowne and Scepter of all kinges assuredly Christ nor none of his Apostles coulde otherwise enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spiritual without Caesars and others the kings of the countries licence and delegation Theo. Finally if this bee all you can say you may wipe your bill and goe to rest You were told before that Princes haue no right to call or confirme Preachers but to receiue such as bee sent of God and giue them libertie for their preaching and securitie for their persons if Princes refuse so to doe Gods labourers must goe forward with that which is commaunded them from heauen not by disturbing Princes from their thrones nor inuading their Realmes as your holy father doth and defendeth hee may doe but by myldly submitting themselues to the powers on earth and meekely suffering for defence of the trueth what they shall inflict Howe you gather out of this or any wordes of ours that Christ and his Apostles might not preach the Gospell without Cesars delegation and licence from others the kinges of the Countries whither they went I see not except you take the woord supreme for superiour to Christ and all which as I haue often signified vnto you standeth neither with our assertion nor intention but is a very pestilent and impudent sophistication of yours which you still repeate though we still refute Phi. The word supreme is such a Laberinth that wee knowe not what to make of it Theo. You know well enough but you will not acknowledge the true meaning of the woord lest you should discouer your selues and discredite your cause For then either you must shewe which you are no way able to doe that the Pope as a superiour iudge may lawfully commaunde punish and displace Princes if they withstande him or else with vs confesse Princes to bee supreme which your stomackes will not abide And therefore finding your proofes too slender to beare vp the height of his pride and the loade of your follie you thought best to skippe it ouer and in all your Apologie not so much as to offer vs one halfe woorde for the confirmation of the superioritie which the Pope claymeth ouer Princes that being the right construction of the word supreme the first occasion why princes were so called but to braule rather with vs about some words of ours and therefore to make such monsterous and impious imaginations that the simple should be afraid at the very sound of theÌ„ as though we made the prince supreme that is superiour to Christ himselfe and Christs master gaue her absolute infinite power to doe what she listed in al ecclesiastical matters and taught that trueth and faith Scriptures and Sacraments vocation of ministers remission of sinnes preaching baptising and seruing God must proceed from her Soueraigne right and depend on her only will and in this vaine you runne on with a iolly persuasion of your selues that you worke woonders when indeed you doe nothing but leudly peruert our wordes and falsely charge vs with your owne fictions Phi. Neuer burden vs with the peruerting of your words we take them as we finde them and as you sayd before to vs we be not bound to search for your meaning if there bee any generalitie or ambiguitie in your words which you ment not the blame is yours that made choise of such Theo. Cease you to wrest them against the grounds of faith and rules of speach receaued and vsed on both sides we aske you no fauor our wordes be sound and good We call her highnes the Gouernour of this Realm that is the publike magistrat bearing the sword which God hath ordained to commaund good things and punish euill as well in religion as ciuill policie
How els should we cal her Phi. Not Gouernour but Prince or ruler For Bishops be Gouernours in their kind as well as Princes Theo. As though these words were not subiect to the same cauils with the former Bishops be Princes and Rulers in their kind as well as gouernours Your selues proue them to be rulers by S. Paul Obey your Rulers and againe The holy Ghost hath set you to rule the Church And where you say Rulers in S. Paul S. Hierom saith Parete Principibus vestris Obey you Princes And elswhere A Bishop must be irreproueable or he shall be no Prince of the Church Yea Gregorie doubteth not to call them Kings The holy preachers of the Church saith he be Kings And S. Hierom ventereth to call them Queenes The Kings and Queenes that nource the Church be plainly the Apostles and Apostolike men So that if we were disposed to play with wordes as you be we coulde driue you to seeke newe names not only for Kings Princes but also for Priests and Bishops S. Iohn saith of himselfe and of al the faithfull Christ hath made vs Kings and Priests vnto god his father and S. Peter confirmeth the same You are a Roiall Priesthood Eusebius writeth of Constantine that He called the seruants of God to Synods as a coÌ„mon Bishop appointed by God and sate among them and made himselfe partaker of their consultations and that in his hearing the Prince Named himselfe a Bishop with these wordes You are Bishops of things within the Church I am appointed by God a Bishop of those things that are without the Church And this he might well doe For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Bishoppe is in Greeke nothing else but an ouerseer or a superintendent which woord Hierom vseth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence our English woorde Priest seemeth to be deriued he sayth is nomen aetatis a name of age and signifieth an Elder and nothing in the Scriptures more common than to call Princes and rulers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders as the seuentie Elders all the tribes of Israel and their Elders Princes and iudges the Princes and Elders of Sucoth the Elders of Bethulia and infinite other places where the woord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vsed of the Septuagint Phi. We know you may confound all things if you list to dally with equiuocatioÌ„s but S. Paul hath expresly prohibited al good teachers strife of words Theo. You say well and since al your absurdities haue none other ground but the carping at our words or rather the manifest abusing and perâ—erting of the same what are your labours to requite you with Saint Paul but vaine brables of men corrupted in mind and depriued of trueth If the word gouernour were common to Bishops with Princes as you would haue it yet are their offices and regiments many wayes distinguished The gouernment of Princes is publike of Bishops is priuate of Princes is compulsiue of Bishops is persuasiue of Princes is Lordly with Rule of Bishops is brotherly with seruice of Princes is externall and ordereth the actions of the bodie of Bishops is internall and guideth the motions of the mind to bee short Princes haue the sworde with lawfull authoritie from GOD in his name to commaunde and prohibite rewarde and reuenge that which hee prescribeth and appointeth Bishoppes haue the woorde and Sacramentes committed to their charge with fidelitie and sinceritie to diuide and dispence the same in his Church according to his will And therefore though Bishoppes may bee called Gouernours in respect of the soule yet onely Princes bee Gouernours of Realmes Pastours haue flockes and Bishoppes haue Diocesses Realmes Dominions and Countries none haue but Princes and Magistrates and so the stile Gouernour of this Realme belongeth onely to the Prince and not to the Priest and importeth a publike and Princely regiment with the sworde which no Bishoppe by Gods Lawe may claime or vse Phi. Wee coulde graunt you with a good will that the Prince is the only Gouernour of this Realm but you adde as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things or causes as temporall which is most absurde and direct against your owne distinction For if the Prince be the only Gouernour of all spirituall things and causes Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours of the word nor Sacramentes rites nor ceremonies praiers nor preachings of the Church but all must bee as please the Prince and so you fall into that shameful error againe from the which you seeke to cleare your selues Theo. Is it for weakenes of witte that you cannot or for rustines of hart that you will not see the defect of your argument Phi. The reason to my thinking is very sure For if only Princes be Gouernours in those cases Ergo not Priests Theo. A childish sophisme Your antecedent hath a special acception of the word Gouernour and your conclusion a generall Princes only bee Gouernours in things and causes ecclesiastical that is with the sword For so their vocation inferreth and your assertion witnesseth and so must you limite your antecedent before it will be good or agreeable to the Doctrine which wee teach oth which we take Then if you conclude Ergo Bishops be no gouernors in those things with the sword your illation is sound and sufficient for in all things and causes ecclesiasticall and spirituall Princes beare the sworde and not Bishops But if you inferre Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours in those things meaning thereby no dispencers guiders nor directors of those things your conclusion is larger than your antecedent which neuer maketh good consequent Phi. I see your meaning you will haue Princes only to be Gouernours of their Realmes dominions that is to beare the sworde within their Realmes and dominions in all thinges as well spirituall as temporall Theo. You see what wee say peruert it no more but confute it if you can Phi. That Princes and none els shoulde beare the sworde within their Dominions I meane not to confute I confesse it as well as you But what hath the temporall sword to do with ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes should meddle with common wealth matters and not busie themselues with Church causes Theo. Runne you backe againe to this issue that Princes may not meddle with causes ecclesiasticall Haue you forgotten how largely that is prooued before and sealed with your owne consent as irreuocable Phi. Meddle they may with some spirituall thinges and causes but when and as they shall bee required by the Priest Theo. Wee are not at this present to heare what you can imagine but to see what you can impugne in our othe as absurd And thus farre you agree with vs that Princes bee the onely Gouernours of their Realmes and dominions taking Gouernours for Magistrates which beare the sworde in Gods behalfe with publike power to compell or punish Phi. And what of this Theo. Thus much that if onely Princes beare the sworde and no man else by
and therefore the power which Princes haue is not spirituall Theo. Wee neuer sayde that Princes had any spirituall power it is a false collection of yours it is no part of our confession and the sworde which they beare wee neuer called but externall and temporall For the true spiritual and eternall sworde is the woorde of God The sworde of the spirite sayth S. Paul which is the word of God and S. Iohn describing the sonne of God sayth Out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword The word of GOD as S. Paul writeth is more percing than any two edged sword and entereth through euen to the parting in sunder of the soul and spirit And as for both these causes it is spirituall so it indureth for euer and is eternall The magistrats sword compared with this is but corporall and temporall Corporall in respect it toucheth the body but not the soule Our sauiour for warning his Disciples that they should be brought before Gouernours and Kings for his sake addeth to encourage theÌ„ Feare not those which kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Temporal it is in respect either of Gods ordinance which lasteth no longer than the time of this worlde or of mans vengeance which ceaseth by death and rageth no farther or if you will for that it ordereth the things of this life and praiseth or punisheth the senssible and external actions of the body which be temporall The things which bee seene are temporal saith S. Paul but the things which are not seene are eternal Phi. You take temporal for that which dureth for a season and is not eternall and we take temporal as it is opposite to spirituall And in that sense because the sword hath to doe with temporal men and matters only we call it the temporall sworde and haue good reason to defend that temporall Princes should not meddle with spirituall Persons or causes Theo. The distinction of spirituall and temporal Persons things and causes as you limite them sprang first from your selues without all authoritie or rather in deed against the authoritie of the holy scriptures and was nothing els but a mere deuise of yours to encrease your Courts and to wind the sword by litle and litle out of other mens fingers hang it at your owne girdles For when you saw that the things which be truly spiritual as faith hope charitie with other vertues and fruites of the spirit belonged only to GOD and not to man and therefore by the resolution of our Sauiour must bee giuen to God and not to Cesar first you would needs be termed spirituall men taking the name which is common to all the sonnes of GOD as proper to your selues and your seruants and by that colour exempt not onely Priests but also doore keepers torche bearers bell ringers Church sweepers and all your retinue from subiection to temporall magistrates But S. Paul calleth them spirituall men which haue the spirit of GOD as all his children haue and the rest carnal or natural men I could not speak to you brethren as vnto spiritual men but as vnto carnal euen as vnto babes in Christ. For where as there is yet among you enuieng strife dissention are you not carnal And againe The naturall man sauoureth not the thinges of the spirit of God but the spiritual man discerneth al things And so BrethreÌ„ if a maÌ„ be fallen into any fault you that be spiritual restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse As also S. Iude These be fleshly men hauing no spirit And likewise Saint Peter Bee you made as liuely stones a spirituall house What wrong then you doe the faythfull when you name them temporall as if the hope of their calling reached no farther than this life let the wise and Godly iudge That reproche of temporall and pride of spirituall men no learned nor auncient father euer vsed Secular S. Hierom calleth them Laymen Clerkes that were not Monkes Temporall no man euer called the people of God besides your selues Next that your landes and liuings might speede no worse than your selues for gaine was the mother of your earely and dayly deuotion you tooke order to haue them goe for spirituall thinges also notwithstanding Saint Paul expressely called them carnal If wee haue sowen vnto you spirituall things is it a great matter if wee reape your carnall thinges And speaking of the poore Saintes at Ierusalem If the Gentiles bee made partakers of their spirituall thinges their duetie is also to minister vnto them in carnal things And where the Lorde himselfe willed the Scribes and high Priestes to giue vnto Caesar the thinges that were Caesars and vnto God the things that were Gods you as if that graunt had beene too liberall thought it expedient vppon some wiser consideration belike to set the image and superscription of God and his Church vpon your corruptible and earthly Mammon and by that cunning to keepe it from Caesar. Farre better S. Ambrose If the Emperour aske for tribute we deny it not The lands of the Church pay tribute If he affect the lands themselues he hath power to take them no man amoÌ„gst vs is any let vnto him The almes of the people is enough for the poore Let them neuer procure vs enuie for our Landes let them take them if they please I doe not giue them to the Emperour but I doe not denie them Thirdly to enlarge your kingdome and stretch your winges ouer all men and matters as farre as you needed or listed you tooke the punishment of incest adulterie fornication drunkennes vsurie periurie simonie sorcerie blasphemie witchcraft Apostacie and such like grosse and fleshly vices out of the Magistrates handes vnder the colour of spirituall thinges and fastened them to your consistories And not therewith content you caught holde of tithes testaments legacies intestates patronages mariages diuorces dowries espousals funerals affinitie consanguinitie bastardie bondage as of spirituall causes and questions and if the matter concerned the goods and Landes of Churches or Church men you made no bones to venter on giftes sales exchaunges possession alienation restitution conuentions conditions exactions sureties pledges payments dammages iniuries forgeries hyring lending farming and a thousand such as if all actions causes and contracts that any way touched your gayne or ease must by and by goe for spirituall and the magistrate by that poore shift bee secluded from ordering and entermedling with those things which were wont to bee wholy guided by the Princes Lawes Phi. Mislike you that Priestes shoulde punish sinne or that Bishoppes should deale in those cases which bee incident to the Lawes of GOD and Canons of the Church Theo. I doe not mislike that malefactours of all kindes not onely drunkards raylers periurers adulterers vsurers and such like but also theeues robbers rauishers murderers plagiaries incendiaries trâ—ytours and all other haynous offendours when their liues bee
their conuersion subuert the worship of idols ouerthrow their tēples edifie the maners of your subiects by exhorting threatning faire intreating correcting shewing examples of wel doing that you may find him a rewarder in heauen whose name knowlege you haue dilated in earth For so Constantine a most religious Emperor reuoking the Romane Empire from the peruerse seruice of idols subdued the same with himself to the almighty God our Lord Iesus Christ turned him self together with the people vnder him to God with al his heart And nowe let your excellency labor to poure the knowledge of one God the father the son the holy Ghost into the Princes people that are subiect to you that he may make you partaker of his kingdom whose faith you cause to be receiued and obserued in your kingdom This the kings of England before since the cōquest were taught to be their duty sworn to execute faithfully as the lawes of king Edward the good make proofe which William the Conquerer receiued confirmed where the office charge of a king are thus expressed A king because he is the Lieutenant of the most high king was appointed to this end that he should regard gouerne the earthly kingdom and the people of God and aboue all thinges his holie Church and defend her from wronges and roote out male factors from her yea scatter and destroy them Which except he do he can not iustly be called a king A king ought to feare God and aboue all thinges to loue him and to establish his commaundementes throughout his kingdom He ought also to keepe nourish maintaine and gouerne the holie Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his fathers and predecessours and to defende it against enemies so as God may be honoured aboue all and euer had in minde He ought to establish good lawes and approued customes and abolish euill lawes and customes and remoue them all out of his Realme Hee ought to doe right iudgement in his kingdom and execute iustice by the counsell of his Nobles All these thinges ought the king to sweare in his owne person before he be crowned The verie Heathen perceiued confessed this to be true Aristotle a prophane Philosopher writing of the first institution of kings sheweth how many things they were by office to medle with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A king in olde time was the leader in warres pronouncer in iudgements and ouerseer of religion And againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diuine things were committed to Princes as part of their charge Al Monarchies kingdomes and common-wealthes Assyrians Persians Medes Graecians Romanes Iewes Gentiles Pagans Christians haue euer kept this for a generall rule that religion shoulde bee setled and establissed by publike lawes and maintained by the Magistrates sword So that if you take the defence of pietie the reward of honestie and balance of equitie from the Princes charge you run headlong against God and man to feede your owne appetites and see not that which reason and nature taught the heathen to confesse that as euery priuate man is bound to seeke and serue God aboue all thinges so euerie societie of men be it familie citie or countrie is likewise bound to haue a speciall and principall care of his seruice which can not be done vnlesse it be planted preserued by publike lawes of these lawes as of all other amongst men onely Magistrates be the makers keepers and reuengers Phi. Princes be charged after a sort with godlines and honestie Theo Your delaies do not answere our proofes We shew the chiefest part of their charge to be godlines and honestie which be thinges spiritual not temporall Phi. What if that be granted Theo. If their duty stretch so far their authoritie must stretch as far Their charge ceaseth where their power endeth God neuer requireth princes to do that which he permitteth thē not to do but rather his commanding them to care for those thinges is a full authorizing of them to medle with those thinges If then godlines and honestie bee the chiefest part of their charge ergo they be likewise the chiefest end of their power and consequently Princes beare the sword chiefly for spiritual thinges and causes not as you defend onely for temporall Phi. You put all thinges temporall spirituall and ecclesiasticall into their handes Theo. In all these thinges and other things whatsoeuer we say they beare the sword and why should that displease you God hath giuen them the sworde euen in those thinges which himselfe commaundeth and prescribeth as namely faith and good manners which be the chiefe contentes of his lawe and respectes of our life and do you think it much that they beare the sword in those indifferent matters which Bishops haue agreed on for seemelinesse and good order to be kept in the church no way comparable to those thinges which God hath put them in trust with and made them defenders and auengers of And if Princes shall not beare the sworde in thinges and causes ecclesiasticall you must tell vs who shall The Priest or the Prince of force must do it and since by Gods law the Priest may not medle with the sword the consequēt is ineuitable that Princes alone are Gods ministers bearing the sword to reward and reuenge good and euill in all thinges and causes bee they temporal spirituall or ecclesiasticall vnlesse you thinke that disorders and abuses ecclesiasticall should be freely permitted and neither preuented nor punished by publike authoritie which in these froward ages would breede a plain contempt of all ecclesiasticall order and discipline and hasten the subuersion of those kingdomes and common-wealthes where such confusion is suffered Phi. The Rites and Ceremonies of the Church are not in the Princes power Theo. To deuise new Rites and Ceremonies for the Church is not the Princes vocation but to receiue and allow such as the Scriptures and Canons commend and such as the Bishops and Pastours of the place shall aduise not infringing the Scriptures or Canons And so for all other ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes be neither the deuisers nor directors of them but the confirmers and establishers of that which is good and displacers and reuengers of that which is euill which power we say they haue in all thinges causes be they spirituall ecclesiasticall or temporall Phi. And what for excommunications and absolutions be they in the Princes power also Theo. The abuse of excommunication in the Priest contempt of it in the people Princes may punish excommunicate they may not for so much as the keies are no part of their charge But these particulars if we seuerally discusse we shall neuer end the generall rules on which our assertion is grounded may be sooner proposed and resolued First to whom hath God committed the sword to the Priest or the Prince Phi. To whom say you
Canons be not incident to the Princes vocation and therefore no maruell if Princes be raw in those thinges wherewith they be not acquainted And since the danger is great if they command for error their skil not so great but that they may soone misse the truth why should you bee loth that others of deeper iudgement exacter knowledge whom God hath placed to teach both priuate men Princes their duties in those cases should direct moderate the swordes of Princes for feare least they should be missed to the ruine of themselues and many thowsandes with them Theo. We be not loth they should be directed but rather exhort all Princes to take great care and spare no paines to come by faithfull and true direction in those thinges that pertaine to God For if in temporall matters where the losses are but temporal they do nothing without the mature and sound aduise of their graue trustie Counsellours how inexcusable is their negligence if in heauenly things where the bodies soules of them-selues their subiectes may be lost for euer they serue their affectiōs seek not his wil that set them in place gaue them power to maintain his truth safegard his Church Phi. We then agree on both sides that Princes must be directed Theo. We do Phi. If they must be directed ergo by Bishops Theo. Bishops for their calling and learning are the likeliest men to direct them right but yet your ergo doth not hold It is not enough for them to be Bishops they must also be teachers of truth before they may claime to be directours of Princes Phi. Who be more likely to teach truth than Bishops Theo. I said before they were likelie but your conclusion inforceth a necessitie which you can not proue Many Bishops haue taught lies and seduced Princes in the church of God and therefore not their dignitie but their doctrine is it that Princes must regarde for neither Prince nor people stand bound to the persons of men but vnto the truth of God and vnto their teachers so long as they swarue not from truth Phi. And who shall be iudge of truth Theo. Absolute iudge of truth neither Prince nor Priest may chalenge to bee Phi. Why so Theo. God is truth of God I trust no man may be iudge The son of God saith of himself I am truth S. Iohn giueth this record of the spirit of God The spirit is truth Ye can therfore be no iudges of truth vnles ye will be iudges of God Phi. Who shal then be iudge of truth The. Who but Christ Phi. He shal be iudge at the last daie Theo. Hee shall then giue generall and finall iudgement of all men but in the meane time hee onely is the soueraine and supreme iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the sonne and my iudgement saith Christ is iust This strife saith Augustine requireth a iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be therefore iudge In earth saith Optatus of this matter there can be no iudgement we must seeke for a iudge from heauen But why knocke wee at heauen when as we haue his will here in the Gospell Phi. They mean that Christ speaketh in his church at this day by his word so iudgeth Theo. And we meane that his word is truth and therefore your Bishops can not be iudges of the word of Christ but they must be iudges of Christ himselfe that speaketh by his word which is no small presumption Phi. Shall not the Church be iudge of the Scriptures Theo. My sheepe saith Christ heare my voice they be no iudges of his voice A iudge of the lawe is no obseruer of the law as S. Iames auoucheth and since the whole church is bound to obey the law of God they be no iudges of the law Inferius est nobis quicquid iudicamus It is inferior to vs whatsoeuer we be iudges of Eternam igitur legem mundis animis fas est cognoscere iudicare non fas est The eternall law of God therefore it is lawfull for cleane harts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Wee must not saith Augustine to God iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it And againe To the canons of the Scriptures pertaine certaine bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles quos omnino iudicare non audeamus the which in any case wee may not dare to iudge And this is the reason there may be no iudge of truth where no daunger of error is And of the Scriptures S. Austine saith Quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est It is a wickednes to make a doubt whether there be any error in them or no therefore there may be no iudges of them but the whole church must be subiect to them and with all humilitie beleeue them Phi. The Bishops be no iudges of the Scriptures whether they bee true or no that as you proue is no doubt and therefore needeth no iudge But in this they be iudges whether the Scriptures be mistaken of others or no. Theo. Then bee they no iudges of truth which is the thing that I first affirmed but of them selues and others which be subiect to errour and ignoraunce Phi. Yet they be iudges of errour though not of trueth Theo. If you take iudging for discerning as the worde doeth often signifie they can not bee teachers of trueth vnlesse they can discerne trueth from errour But onelie God is to limit and appoint by his word what shall stand for truth what for errour With that Bishops haue nothing to do they must heare and beleeue the voice of the great Sheepeheard Christ Iesus as well as the meanest sheepe in his fould Phi. Wee grant you that so you grant vs this that only Bishops bee discerners of truth Theo. A liberall offer You will graunt vs a knowen truth vpon condition that we shall grant you a manifest vntruth Make earth and ashes if you dare to bee iudges of their Lord and maister which is in heauen or deny Bishops when they be at the highest to be the seruants of Christ yea happie be they if they be so much In these things we neither stande at your almes nor aske your consents we be right sure and dare not deny them therefore our assertion is without contradiction yours is vtterly false that only Bishops be discerners of truth For as Bishops ought to discern which is truth before they teach so must the people discern who teacheth right before they beleeue Phi. Shal the people iudge their Pastors you be so new fangled that you say you know not what Theo. We haue the words and warrant of the holy Ghost for that which we say Beleeue not euery Spirit but trie the Spirits whether they be of god for many false prophets are
loue may abound yet more and more in knowledge in all iudgement that you may discerne the thinges which are best He that is spirituall discerneth all thinges You may haue a thowsand like both places proofes that the faithfull should looke and take heede that they be not seduced And except you will excuse the people before God if you misleade them why should you bar them al trial vnderstanding whether they folow faith vnto saluation or withdraw theÌ„selues vnto perdition WheÌ„ the blind leadeth the blind and they fall both into the pit of destruction is not hee that followeth as sure to perish as he that leadeth Phi. We be content they shall bee discerners but no iudges of their Pastors Theo. And Bishops themselues be no iudges but discerners of truth Phi. We be froÌ„ the matter that we began with we were speaking of Princes The. We bee right enough Princes haue the same charge to obey the trueth beware false Prophets that priuate men haue ergo they must haue the same freedome to discerne spirites and refuse straunge doctrines that all the faithfull haue Christ hath not appointed one way for Princes an other for their people to come by the knowledge of his wil but the same way for both Ergo the precepts which I last alleadged also the former pertaine to Magistrates as well as to subiects to make the rule more generall in discerning beleeuing and obeying the truth there is no distinctions of persons with God Phi. We receiue your rule infer vpon it that these words of S. Paul Obey your rulers bind as well Princes as priuate men to be subiect to Bishops The. Take with you this limitation which haue spoken to you the word of God which S. Paul giueth euen in the same chap. infer what you can To Bishops speaking the worde of God Princes as wel as others must yeeld obedieÌ„ce but if Bishops passe their commission and speake besides the worde of God what they list both Prince and people may despise them With this limitation our Sauiour sent his Apostles into the worlde Go teach all Nations but what To obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you And this the Apostles them-selues do not conceale in doing their message The word of the Lord saith Peter indureth for euer and this is the word which is preached among you That which we haue seene saith Iohn heard that declare we to you that ye may haue felloship with vs. Let a man saith Paul so think of vs as of the ministers of Christ stewards of the mysteries of God And as for the rest it is requisite in stewardes that euery man be found faithful And to the Galat. Though we our selues or an Angel from heauen preach vnto you otherwise than that we haue preached vnto you let him be accursed Preach I now man or God I certifie you brethren that the Gospel which was preached of me was not after maÌ„ for I neither receiued it of man neither was I taught it by maÌ„ but by the reuelatioÌ„ of Iesus Christ. And this maketh him so diligeÌ„tly distinguish the precepts of Christ from his own counsels To the maried I command not I but the Lord to the rest I speake and not the Lord Yea hee requireth of them no more but that they follow him so far forth as he followeth Christ Be ye followers of me eueÌ„ as I am of Christ that is no longer nor farther than I â—ollow Christ. Chrysostom alleadging the words of S. Paul Obey your ouerseeers doth thus limit them Si quidem fidei dogma peruertat etiamsi Angelus sit obedire noli But if hee peruert any point of faith though hee be an Angell obey him not And streight after Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet si quid dixerit proprium si quid hymanuÌ„ sed Apostolo ChristuÌ„ in se loquenteÌ„ circumferenti We must not obey Paul himself if he speak any thing of his own or as a maÌ„ but we must obey the Apostle bearing Christ about that speaketh in him Nobis nihil ex nostro arbitrio indulgere licet It is not lawful for vs saith TertulliaÌ„ to deuise any thing of our selues nor to follow that which others haue deuised We haue the Apostles of the Lord for our authors who deuised nothing of their own heads but deliuered faithfully to the nations the doctrine which they receiued of Christ. Therfore though an Angel froÌ„ heauen should preach otherwise we should couÌ„t him accursed Euery teacher is a seruant of the law because he may neither ad of his own sense vnto the law nor according to his own coÌ„ceit take any thing froÌ„ the law but preach that onely which is founde in the law If Apostles and Angels bee tied to this condition much more others our first addition which speake vnto you the worde of God is euerywhere intended in the Bishops function though it be not expressed Phi. If Bishops then speake the word of God Princes must obey them The. If princes resist the word of truth in the Preachers mouth they resist not the messenger but the master that sent him Phi. Hence we conclude that Bishops be superiour to Princes Theo. By what Logicke Phi. Princes must obey Bishops speaking the word of God ergo Bishops be superiour to Princes Theo. If Bishops spake to Princes in their owne names your argument were somwhat but since they speak to them as seruants in their masters name which is Lord of all and ouer all your consequent is very foolish For let any Prince send his seruaÌ„t in a message to the Nobles of his Realm wil you reason thus The seruant speaking in the princes name that which is coÌ„manded him must be obeied of the Nobles ergo the seruaÌ„t is superiour to the Nobles I thinke you will not or if you do you reason very loosely Phi. If the seruant haue commission from the Prince though he be neuer so meane and the Nobles haue none well they may excell him in Nobilitie but sure he excelleth them in authoritie Theo. He doth in those thinges which his Commission reacheth vnto Phi. But Bishops haue commission from God to rule yâ— church ergo they be superior to princes in the regiment of the church Our assumptioÌ„ we proue by S. Paul Take heed to your selues to the whol flock wherin the holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops to rule the church of God Theo. Your lucke is euil to light on such vnperfect proofes I told you before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did signifie to feed the church or flocke of Christ not to rule You now catch hold of the same corruption againe make it the ground of your conclusion If you trust not vs your selues in your Rhemish Testament haue so translated the word in S. Peter Feed the flock of God which is amoÌ„g you which is in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very children knowe that these three wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A sheepeheard his flocke and to feede haue one and the same deriuation and therefore one and the same signification The holy Ghost himselfe vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Synonima that is words of the same power force For when Christ repeated this charge feed my sheep thriseâ— to Peter in the Gospel of S. Iohn his words are the secoÌ„d time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the third time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now draw your assumptioÌ„ from S. Pauls wordes rightly translated what conclude you Bishops haue commission from God to feede the Church or flocke of Christ which Princes haue not ergo Bishops by their calling may preach and Princes may not This is al you can infer and this is nothing against vs. Phi. They be superiors to Princes in feeding the flock of Christ ergo they be their superiors Theo. That sequele is not good In building Masons be superiour to Princes in sayling Mariners in fighting Souldiers be these men ergo simplie superiour to Princes I trow not Phi. Preaching the word dispensing the Sacraments pardoning the sinnes or men which are the Bishops charge be things far greater higher than any that Princes haue Theo. The perfection operation of these things which you name depend not on the wils of men but on the power of God therefore the honor estimation of them must serue for the praise of Gods glorie not for the increase of mans pride The Ghostly worke is Gods the bodilie seruice is the Priests wherein Iudas the thiefe Simon the sorcerer and Demas the renegate may chalenge as much as Iames the iust Peter the zealous and Iohn the faithfull the three pillers of Christs church Per ministros dispares Dei munuâ— equale est quia non illorum sed eius est By ministers far vnlike the gift of God saith Augustine is the same because it is not theirs but his Christ sent him that betraied him with the rest of his Disciples to preach the kingdom of heaueÌ„ to shew that the gifts graces of God are bestowed on theÌ„ which receiue the same with faith though he that deliuereth them be as bad as Iudas The things which God giueth saith Chrysostom caÌ„ not be made perfect by the holines of the Priest for all is done by his heauenly grace Only the Priests office is to open his mouth but it is God that worketh all the Priest doth only accomplish the external signe or act Men saith Ambrose in the remission of sinnes ministerium suum exhibeÌ„t non ius alicuius potestatis exercent do their seruice but exercise no right of authority They pray God giueth the seruice is by man the gift is froÌ„ the heauenly power Preaching the word is a worthier part of Apostolike dignity thaÌ„ ministring the sacraments by the witnes of S. Paul himself saying Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach the gospel And yet of preachers the scripture saith Neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the increase So that neither in the word nor sacraments you may chalenge any thing to man but only the corporal seruice which is common to the godly with heretiks hypocrits the rest is proper to God may not be ascribed to men without iniurie to him that is the true author of them mighty worker in theÌ„ And therefore the reason which you draw from the perfection of Gods graces in the Church to the preferring aduauncing of the Bishops person before the Princes is very vitious because the subiection reueÌ„ge due to the sword is imparted to the Princes person the dignitie vertue of the word sacraments is not to the Bishops Phi. The Priests commission is higher than the Princes why should not the priests person be aboue the Princes The. The priest hath his coÌ„mission as a seruant to cal for subiection obedience not vnto himself but vnto his Lord Master that sent him And this subiection because it is giuen to God infinitely exceedeth that which Princes may looke for But what is this to the Priests person who must preach himself to be The seruant of meaner men thaÌ„ Princes make himself The seruant of al men if he note wel the words of his commission and not striue with Princes for superioritie Phi. For their persons I wil not greatly staÌ„d with you but certainly their power is aboue the princes The. You â—un so fast that you forget where you should be We were debating who should direct princes in matters of faith you be slipt from that entring a new questioÌ„ who shal correct theÌ„ where the former is yet vnfinished Phi. You did coÌ„fesse that princes must obey Bishops so long as they speak truth The. And you would not deny but princes might refuse bishops if they swarued froÌ„ faith Phi. But who shal be iudge whether they swarue froÌ„ faith or no Theo. That is the question which I said was not yet resolued If Bishops teach truth surely princes must obey theÌ„ I mean the word of truth in their mouthes If they go froÌ„ truth theÌ„ princes must auoide theÌ„ To this we both consent but the doubt is whether trueth bee tyed to some certaine Persons or places where Princes may find it whence Princes must fet it or else whether Princes as all others must vse the best meanes they can to discerne true Preachers from false and so be directed by such as they thinke to be sent from God Phi. You would haue Princes and others leane to their owne iudgements and follow their owne fansies We would haue them sticke to the Church and looke to those Pastours whose faith can not faile Theo. Such Pastours bee worth the following if you can point vs to them Phi. Peters fayth can not fayle follow that faith and you can not misse the trueth Theo. He that keepeth Peters fayth in deede can not want the trueth because Peter beleeued the truth but we bee nothing the nearer for this Pauls fayth was likewise trueth and so was the faith of Matthew Iames Iohn Iude and others but who must be credited what fayth Peter and the rest preached Shall we take that at your hands by report or at their owne mouthes by writing Phi. If their writings were not darke or might not bee wrested the Scriptures were the best witnesses of their doctrine but now their successours must rather be trusted than euery man suffered to take what fayth he list out of their writings Theo. Rather so than worse doth not answere my question but must we trust their successours in matters of faith against or besides their writings Phi. Against their writings we must not besides their writings we must For many things are beleeued which are not expressed in the scriptures The.
except it were out of the bookes of faith or who would trust them in diuine causes without some colour of diuine Scriptures But what meanes the Lord hath left his sheepe to distinguish true shepheards from wolues dissembling their habite and theeues pretending his name this is the question that now we bee in Phi. It is And there must wee say bee some certaine Tribunall on earth where truth may be found at all times and of all men that bee willing to seeke for it otherwise there should be no stay for religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to be trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is trueth which were most absurd Theo. A Tribunal in earth to decide which is trueth Whose Tribunal shall that be Phi. The Churches Theo. We be now as neere as we were before If the truth be douted of the church must needes be much more doubted of because the church is the number of men professing the truth And howe can the professours of trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question You doe but wast your breath if you goe not more directly to worke Phi. You would fayne call the Church in question but that you can not Theo. Away with these follies Where fayth faileth the church fayleth and hee that affirmeth your doctrine to bee false denyeth your assemblies and multitudes to bee the Church The supposing your selues to bee the Church when your fayth shoulde bee tried is a fonde and vaine delay Shall that be trueth which you professe though Christ say nay Phi. We say not so Theo. Then suffer those to bee his sheepe that heare his voyce and clayme not his fold vntill you be his sheepe Phi. We do not Theo. Wee must be first resolued which is his voyce before we can agree who are his sheepe Phi. I know that and yet which is the sheepheards voyce the sheepe must iudge and not the wolues The. In deed our sauiour saith The sheepe follow the shepheard for they know his voyce A stranger they will not follow but flee from him for they knew not the voyce of strangers applying this to himself My sheep saith he heare my voyce and follow me The reason went before for they know the voyce of their shepheard So that by the position of our Sauiour his sheepe must be able to discerne his voyce from a strangers Phi. What else Theo. His voyce is his woord his sheepe are the faithfull his folde is his church If the Lorde himselfe referre his sheepe to their exact knowledge of his voyce for their perfect direction why woulde you force the flocke of Christ to the court of Rome there to learne at your handes and vppon your only credite the voyce of their shepheard Phi. We would haue them followe the direction of Christes church in discerning the sound of Christes voyce Theo. And the church of Christ neuer directed any man by prescribing certaine places or persons where trueth could not fayle but only by the generall and constant profession of the same faith from the Apostles downe-ward in all ages and countries Phi. The church commendeth succession councels and Apostolicall Seates as good helpes to hit the right sense of the Scriptures Theo. But neuer as infallible notes to discerne the trueth Phi. The Bishops of the vniuersall Church haue as S. Ireneus sayth receiued with their Episcopal succession the grace and gift of vnderstanding the trueth Theo. You do that auncient father wrong in the place which you bring Ireneus limiteth succession after the same maner that we do noting successiō to be nothing worth vnlesse sound doctrine and holy conuersation be thereunto ioyned His woordes be Wee must therfore obey those Priests which are in the Church I meane those which haue their succession from the Apostles which together with their succession in office haue receiued charisma veritatis certum the sure doctrine or gift of trueth The rest we must suspect either as heretikes or as authors of schismes and pleasers of themselues or else as hypocrites vayne glorious and couetous From all such we must abstaine and cleaue to them as I said which keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with the order of their priestly calling yeeld wholesome doctrine conuersation without offence And shewing what hee meaneth by charisma he sayth Vbi igitur charismata Domini posita sunt ibi dicere oportet veritatem Where these blessings and gifts of God are there must we learne the trueth with whome is that succession of the Church which is from the Apostles and also sounde and irreproueable Doctrine So that orderly succession sound doctrine and conuersation without blame are the giftes and graces of God which he meaneth and the one hee will not haue to bee regarded or trusted without the other Phi. Make you no more accompt of succession Theo. We cōmend succession to exclude ambition and dissention in the Church of Christ and in that respect we detest such as inuade the Pastorall function without lawfull vocation and election but that succession in place should be taken for a warrant of true Doctrine is an error of yours and so palpable that euery Child can refell it For who knoweth not that an infinite number of bishops those orderly succeeding if you looke to their dignitie and not to their doctrine haue beene heretiks And that S. Paul thus forewarned the Bishops of Ephesus Out of your selues shall rise men speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them And the Lord when he saith Beware of false prophets noteth there shall bee prophets by their calling which shal be foūd false in their teaching as S. Peter also witnesseth There were false prophets among the people of the Iewes euen as there shall be false teachers amongst you distinguished from Godly teachers not by office but by Doctrine S. Paul graunteth many to be the ministers of Christ in outward profession and shew which in workes and deeds be the ministers of Sathan Such false Apostles saith hee are deceitful workers and transforme them selues into the Apostles of Christ. The Prince of darkenesse that can conuaie his agents to be Teachers Prophets and Apostles in the Church of Christ can place them in Bishoprikes at his pleasure and therefore the chaire is no sure defence against error Phi. Wee know some Bishops haue beene heretikes but not all Theo. Neither do we say that all were God forbid But by this that some were we proue succession to bee no sure direction vnto trueth If Berillus Paulus Samosatenus Photinus Nestorius Dioscorus Petrus Apameus Sergius Cyrus Theodorus Macarius and infinit others canonically succeeding in Seates and Churches of no small account fell afterward into pestilent heresies that which was often easie then is contingent possible still succession which saued not them from erring can not defend others from the
hereticall Emperour assaied to ouerthrowe multis paucorum fraude deceptis the multitude there being deceiued by the subtiltie of a fewe And therefore hee concludeth Sed nunc ne◠ego Nicenum nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris But nowe since there be contrarie Councels neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councel of Ariminum for a preiudice to either part for neither am I bound to the authoritie of this later Councell of Ariminum nor you to the authoritie of that former Nicene Councell Confessing not only that councels might erre but that his aduersarie was not tied to the authoritie of the great Nicene councell comparable to the which no Councell euer was or shall bee in the Church of Christ. Phi. There was great difference betweene the Councell of Ariminum and the Councell of Nice Theo. In the syncere profession of the true fayth there was difference betwixt them but in the manner of calling those Councels and number of the persons present Saint Augustine founde no great aduantage for his side The Arrians had a councell as great and as general for that which they refused as the Catholiques had for that which they professed and therefore this learned father sawe no remedie but hee must yeelde vppe the Nicene Councell as no sufficient conuiction of their heresie Phi. The councell of Ariminum was not generall Theo. The councell was farre greater as it should seeme than the councell of Nice though the Storie of the church doe not lay downe the certaine number of the Bishoppes that mette Phi. What reason leadeth you to thinke it was greater Theo. It is euident by the Storie that the Emperour assembled all the Bishoppes both of the East and of the West church of purpose if it were possible to bring them to some concord and the Bishoppes of either church no doubt farre exceeded the number of three hundred Phi. They were not all at Ariminum Theo. The number was so great and the iourney so long that the Emperour made them sit in two seuerall places the East Bishoppes at Nicomedia the West at Ariminum but that all the Bishoppes of both Churches were gathered in these two places Socrates doeth witnesse Imperator vniuersale Concilium congregare voluit vt cunctos Orientis Episcopos in Occidentem accersitos concordes si posset redderet The Emperour intended to gather an vniuersall Councell that all the Bishoppes of the East comming into the West parts he might get thē to agree if it might be And when the length of the iourney appeared ouer tedious he cōmanded the councel to be diuided willed the west to assemble at Ariminum the East to resort at Nicomedia What a companie there were of the west bishops their own words to Constantius will declare Ariminū ex cunctis Occidentis Ciuitatibus omnes Episcopi conuenimus We assembled at Ariminum euen all the Bishops out of all the west Cities S. Hierom writing of this very Councell saith Illo tempore nihil tam pium nihil tam conueniens seruo Dei videbatur quam vnitatem sequi a totius mundi communione non scindi At that time nothing seemed so religious nothing so conuenient for the seruant of God as to follow vnitie and not to cut himselfe from the Communion of the whole world The communion of the whole world was in the Councell of Ariminum no Councell therefore could be more generall than that was And this no doubt Saint Augustine sawe when hee gaue ouer the Councell of Nice as no greater preiudice to his aduersaries than the Councel of Ariminum was to himselfe and the fayth which he defended Phi. The Councell of Ariminum condemned the error of Arius as their Epistle to Constantius declareth Theo. The Bishoppes assembled at Ariminum were religious and Catholike but not sounding the drift of some craftie heretikes amongest them and ledde with a coulour of concord and peace which the Emperour vrged they relented from the Nicene creede vppon pretence made that the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was new and offensiue and consented the worde should bee abolished and subscribed to an other Creede that professed the sonne of GOD to bee like to his father according to the Scriptures Phi. Wherein then did that Councell erre Theo. Not in decreeing any falsehood but in exacting lesse to bee beleeued than the Christian faith required and reiecting that worde which the Nicene Councell had established for the righter expressing of the christian faith In this Councell saith Saint Hierom Nomine vnitatis fidei infidelitas scripta est In the name of vnitie and faith infidelity was decreed and written and vppon the conclusion of the Councell Ingemuit totus orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est The whole worlde groned and wondered to see it selfe in Arrianisme Phi. The fathers made more accompt of Councels than you doe Theo. No father euer saide that Councels could not erre Phi. S. Augustine saith their authoritie is most wholesome in the Church Theo. But hee neuer said they were free from all error That is the perfection and reuerence which S. Augustine reserueth to the Scriptures only to be without all suspition of error Solis eis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissime credam I haue learned to yeeld this feare and honor to the Canonical Scriptures only that I firmely beleeue none of the Authors of them to haue any thing erred in penning them If this honor to be free from error be due to the Canonical Scriptures only then may you not impart it either to succession Councels or Sees Apostolike It must stand for a perpetuall difference betweene the preceptes of God and decrees of men that God is true and all men lyars If ought sayth Austen bee prooued by the manifest authoritie of the diuine Scriptures which in the Church are called Canonicall it must bee beleeued without any doubting Other witnesses or testimonies thou mayst beleeue or not beleeue according as thou shalt see cause to trust thē And distinguishing the Canon of the Scriptures from the writings and resolutions of all that followed were they fathers Councels or whatsoeuer hee sayth In that Canonicall preeminence of the sacred Scriptures if it appeare that but one Prophet Apostle or Euangelist set downe any thing in his writings it is not lawfull to doubt of the trueth of it In the works of those that came after them comprised in bookes that bee infinite in which soeuer of them the same truth is sound yet the authoritie is farre inferior Therfore in thē if happily some things be thought to dissent from truth because they be not vnderstood as they were spoken tamen liberum ibi habet lector
auditorue iudicium quo vel approbet quod placuerit vel improbet quod offenderit yet hath the reader or hearer in those writings his iudgement free to allow what hee liketh and reiect what he misliketh So that in all such except they be fortified by euident reason or by that Canonical authoritie if a man mislike or wil not beleeue he is not reprooued Which libertie S. Augustine elsewhere chalengeth vnto himselfe In quorumlibet hominum scriptis in the writings of al mē whatsoeuer and addeth this reason Quia solis Canonicis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum because I owe consent without any stay to the Canonical Scriptures only The authoritie to bee beleeued without any refusing is proper onely to the Scriptures because the certainetie not to erre is annexed only to them and to no writings else The rest must bee read as S. Augustine teacheth non cum credendi necessitate sed cum iudicandi libertate not with a necessitie to beleeue them but a libertie to iudge of them and must bee distinguished from the authoritie of the Canon for that the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures can neither deceiue nor be deceiued and by those bookes de ceteris literis fideliū vel infidelium libere iudicemus we may freely iudge of all other writings both of Christians and Infidels If wee must iudge then they may erre Where no danger of error is there is no freedom of iudgement left vs to receiue what we see cause and reiect what we thinke good The Scriptures we may not iudge of because they can not erre All other writings wee must examine before wee beleeue Ergo they be not free from erring This made S. Augustine disputing with the Donatists to reiect the Councels that were against him and resigne the Councels that were with him as he did before refuting the Arrians and to tie both himselfe and his aduersaries to the Scriptures Let the Donatists if they can sayth hee shewe their Church not in rumors and speaches of the men of Africa not in the coūcels of their Bishops not in the discourses of any writers whosoeuer not in signes and miracles that may be forged but in the prescript of the law in the predictions of the Prophetes in the verses of the Psalmes in the voyces of the shepheard himselfe in the preachings and workes of the Euangelists that is in all the canonical authorities of the sacred Scriptures And binding himselfe to the same condition he saith Quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credi oportere quòd in ecclesia Christi sumus c. Because we our selues do not say wee must therfore be beleeued for that we are in the Church of Christ or else for that Optatus Ambrose and infinite other Bishops of our communion haue cōmended the church which we hold or because our church hath bin published in the Councels of our Collegues S. Hilarie was nothing afrayd to be condemned in many Councels Now let him gather what Councels hee will against me sayth he and openly proscribe me for an heretike as he hath often done Phi. By whom then shal princes be directed if neither by bishops nor councels Theo. I do not say that princes should not be directed by them but onely that princes others are not bound vnto them with like subiection as they bee to the word of God For that can not erre may command because God is the author of it Councels may erre can not cōmand because they consist of men which be not alwaies assured of trueth and owe subiection to the princes sword Phi. Were this exception good against councels against Christes Uicar it is not good He may command as Christ might if he were present and hath a promise that his fayth shall not fayle Theo. In deede Christ hath a Uicar on earth that may commaund and can direct vnto trueth but I thinke you meane not him Phi. I meane the Uicar generall which Christ left behinde him to guyde the church after his ascending Theo. And so doe I and yet I doubt wee bee of two mynds Phi. What Uicar hath Christ left but Peter and his successors in the Romane See which can not erre and may commaund as well Princes as others Theo. His holy Spirite which hath better right to commaund and skill to direct than either Peter or Peters successours Phi. Call you the holy Ghost his Uicar Theo. Why shoulde I not Tertullian did so before mee The rule of faith is sayth hee that Christ was taken vp into heauen and sate down at the right hand of his father and sent Vicarian vim spiritus sancti qui credentes agat the power of the holy Ghost to bee his Vicar and to leade the faithfull And in an other place hee giueth him the same tytle Vicarius Domini Spiritus sanctus the holy Ghost the Lordes Vicar But what auncient father euer called the Bishoppe of Rome Christes Uicar Phi. If Peter were no doubt he is Theo. Wee aske not now for ifs shewe one that euer called him so Phi. What if that very word be not found in them Theo. Then forbeare it till you find it and goe on with some other name Phi. Call him as you list but this wee bee sure that hee can not erre and may commaunde both Prince and people Theo. Hee neuer biteth that barketh much you make your selfe sure of these thinges which when wee come to triall will be most vnsure How proue you either of these points which you affirme Phi. The Gospel prooueth the first I prayed for thee that thy fayth fayle not and thou once conuerted confirme thy brethren which is to say that Peter is that man whom hee woulde make Superiour ouer them and the whole Church Theo. Which is to say that you belie the words of the Gospel For who but Iesuites would make this collection Confirme thy brethren that is be Superiour ouer them and the whole Church Phi. None may confirme but a Superiour Theo. Why so good Syr May not one brother comfort and encourage an other Phi. Yeas but Peter must confirme his brethren Theo. And what was confirming in this place but recalling them from the feare they were in whē they fled from their master and leading them by his example to be more constant Phi. It was his charge so to doe Theo. So is it euery Christian mans in the like case to do no lesse Dauid after the defiling of Berseba and murdering of Vriah promiseth to do that which Peter is here appointed to do Restore mee to the ioy of thy saluation and establish mee with thy free Spirit then wil I teach thy wayes vnto the wicked and sinners shal be couerted vnto thee Will you therefore inferre that Dauid was supreme Pastor ouer al the wicked Are you not profound men of a christian duetie and commō charitie prescribed to Peter in respect of
greater part of those which professe christianitie or some speciall places or persons must for euer be directed vnto all truth and preserued from all error this can not be concluded by these wordes Phi. To teach all truth and preserue in truth and from errour the holy Ghost is promised and perfourmed onely to the church and the chiefe gouernour and generall councels thereof Theo. In deede you take vpon you like Gouernors to appoint what the son of God shal meane who must haue the holy Ghost as if the matter were in your hands not in his Phi. Do we take vpon vs to limit the holy Ghost Theo. What else do you when of your owne heades you restraine the words of our Sauior as you liâ—t Phi. As we list Theo. Our Sauiours words are When that spirit of truth commeth he shal teach you al truth This say you is promised perfourmed only to the church the chiefe Gouernor the Pope and generall Councels thereof As if You in S. Iohns Gospel did signifie none but the Pope the chiefe Gouernor and such Bishops as the Pope will admit to his conferences which you call the generall councels of the church and what is this else but to diuide the holy Ghost as you thinke good Phi. The rulers of the church must needs haue the holy Ghost Theo. Meane you all or some Phi. The most part of them Theo. How proue you that to be Christes meaning that the most part of them which can procure themselues miters or rather catch vp Bishoprickes shall be sure of the holy Ghost in such measure that they shall neuer mistake the saith nor any parte thereof Phi. If they should erre the church should erre Theo. You run from bad to worse Your own law wil shew you the falsenes peruersnes of your Rhemish obseruations and expositions Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare Side ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest Respondeo Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I demaund of what church it is ment when it is saide as here that the church can not erre If of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I answere the congregatioÌ„ of the faithfull is here called the church and that church can not chose but continue The spirit of truth is not promised to the Pope nor to his councels but to the faithfull whether they be seuered or assembled and they shall not erre that is they shall not perish in errour as the wicked do but shall either be recouered from their errour or find mercy for their ignorance Phi. May the whole church erre Theo. If wee shoulde graunt you that the whole church can not erre to wit that all the faithfull on the earth at one time can not bee deceiued in any necessarie point of faith but that Christ for his promise sake will preserue truth amongest them what is this to the Pope or his Cardinals or Conuenticles to whom you conuey the holy Ghost by inheritance Phi. Neuer delude vs with ifs but tell vs whether you think the whole church may erre or no. Theo. In matters of faith wee thinke it can not Phi. If the church can not er the Gouernors of the church can not The. Leaue trifling and fall to reasoning The whole church can not erre ergo what Phi. Ergo the Pastors Preachers can not erre Theo. Conclude you all or none Phi. To say no Pastour can erre were apparent madnesse Theo. And the next which is all Pastours can not erre doeth you no pleasure For the Bishop of Rome may erre so may the rest of his mitred and twiforked creatures yet many good Pastours and Preachers keepe fast to the faith Howbeit this conclusion doth not follow vpon my confession The whole church I graunt can not er that is all and euery the faithful can not er therefore all Pastours can not er this is no kind of consequeÌ„t For some of the faithful may be directed vnto truth they no pastors nor preachers many preachers may be preserued from errour they no Bishops many Bishops may be kept in the faith and they not assembled a great number of those that be assembled may bee rightly affected and yet not the most part of them and the greater side may be wel disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome whom you make to be the moderator and guider of all councels And therefore your argument is very childish The whole church can not erre ergo generall councels can not erre and specially the Pope which later part your best friendes haue not onely refuted as false but also detested for incredible and shamefull flatterie Phi. So say you Theo. So say they Alfonsus that wrote bitterly against Luther when he came to this point dealt plainely in these wordes Non credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoâ— velit vt nec errare possit I can not thinke any man to be so impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this vnto him that he can not er Phi. Alfonsus hath no such words Theo. You say truth Alfonsus now hath not but Alfonsus had those wordes in his former editions And this commendeth your cunning that you can curtaile the writinges of your fellowes leaue out what you list when you new print them Phi. It was his owne correcting in his seconde edition Theo. Whether it was his doing or yours we care not the wordes remaine in the olde Printes to the manifest condemnation of your follie and flatterie in this behalfe And in his new copies though he qualifie his termes hee holdeth flatly the same opinion Omnis homo errare potest in fide etiam sipapa sit Euerie man may erre in faith euen the Pope himselfe And so you heard your owne gloze before affirme It is certaine the Pope may erre The same is confessed by the best of your side both canonistes and diuines Panormitane saith Concilium potest condemnare Papam de haeresi vt in cap. Si Papa Distinct. 40. vbi dicitur quod Papa potest esse haereticus de haeresi iudicari A councell may condemne the Pope of heresie as appeareth in the 40. Distinct. cap. Si Papa Where it is saide that the Pope may be an heretik iudged of heresie Lyra saith Multi summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à side Many Popes haue proued apostataes Augustinus de Ancona Papa est deponendus pro haeresi ad CoÌ„ciliuÌ„ spectat PapaÌ„ in haeresi deprehensum condeÌ„nare vel deponere The Pope may be deposed for heresie A couÌ„cel may condemn or depose the Pope deprehended in heresie Antonius Archbishop of Florence Pro haeresi Papa congruè ipso facto
deponitur For heresie the Pope is ipso facto deposed and no inconuenience And to that ende hee alleadgeth Petrus de Palude saying Papa quando labitur in haeresin tunc â—o ipso est praecisus ab Ecclesia desinit esse caput The Pope when hee falleth into an heresie is presently cutte off from the Church and ceaseth to bee the heade of it So Gerson the Chauncellour of Paris Tam Papa quam Episcopus deuiabiles à fide The Pope may swarue from the fayth as well as an other Bishop The generall councell of Basill saith Saepe experti sumus legimus Papam errasse Wee haue often both found out by experience and reade that the Pope hath erred And againe Cum certum sit Papam errare posse For so much as it is certaine the Pope may erre Aeneas Syluius afterwarde Pius the seconde inueying against them that woulde not haue councels gathered without the Popes consent saith What remedie shall there bee if a sinnefull Pope trouble the Church if hee destroie soules if hee peruert the people with his euill example Si denique contraria fidei praedicet haereticisque dogmatibus imbuat subditos If he teach against the faith and infect those that be vnder him with hereticall opinions Cardinall Caietane and Pope Innocentius the fourth though they had good cause to fauour the See of Rome yet were they clearely resolued the Pope might erre and so were all the writers of your owne religion before this our age that euer I hearde of and euen at this day the sincerest of them dislike the vnshamefastnesse of your assertion Papa in fide errare potest vt melius sentientes tenent etiam ex hijs qui Papatui plurimum fauent Inter quos est Innocentius eius nominis quartus Pontifex in cap. 1. De summa Trinitate The Pope may erre in fayth as the truer opinion is euen of them that fauour the popedome verie much Amongest whome is Innocentius the fourth of that name Bishoppe of Rome writing vppon the first chapter De summa Trinitate Arboreus a Doctor of Paris and one of your chiefe Sorbonistes Papa in fide errare Potest Et tota mihi aberrare via videtur qui aliter sentit Assentantur sane Romano Pontifici qui faciunt cum immunem à lapsu haereseos schismatis The Pope may erre in fayth And he seemeth to mee to bee in foule errour that thinketh otherwise Surely they doe but flatter the Bishoppe of Rome that make him free from falling into heresie and schisme Erasmus pithily impugneth your inconsiderate follie If it bee true which some say that the Bishop of Rome can neuer erre iudicially what neede generall councels Why are men skilled in the lawes and learned in diuinitie sent for to councels if hee pronouncing can not erre To what purpose are so many Vniuersities troubled with handling questions of faith when truth may be had from his mouth Nay how commeth it to passe that the decrees of one Pope are repugnaÌ„t to the decrees of an other This perswasion of yours must needes be naught which so many of your owne side haue condemned before our dayes and the sobrest of your selues that haue written since our time doe vtterly disclaime And therefore aduise you whether you will faierly resigne this fansie or be conuinced by the verdict of your fellowes for men-pleasers and flatterers It is farre from a Catholike position which your owne church in the midst of darkenesse would neuer acknowledge and at this daie none defende but such hungrie ghestes as you be that gape for thankes and seeke to please Phi. You falsely charge vs with vnhonest respectes Theo. It is not my iudgement of you but theirs that otherwise haue no cause to thinke euill of you Phi. The reason that moueth vs so to say is for that we finde no Pope that euer erred Theo. You refuse Councels Fathers Stories and all that come in your way because you will not finde it Phi. We refuse not that is ancient or indifferent but onely such as we thinke partiall Theo. Then if there bee no cause why they should be partiall you will admit them for credible Phi. We will Theo. We expect no more What say you then to Clemens the first of that name as you make your account though wee thinke it a leude forgerie in his name Doe not your own Decrees report out of his decretall epistles that amongest christians al things ought to be common euen wiues and all Communis vita omnibus fratres necessaria est Communis enim vsus omnium quae sunt in hoc mundo omnibus esse hominibus debuit In omnibus autem sunt sine dubio coniuges A common life is necessarie for all men brethren the vse of all thinges that are in this world ought to be common to all men And in al things no doubt are wiues contained Phi. He meaneth not the carnall vse of women but their domestical seruice ought to be common Theo. So your gloze would make vp the breach but all in vaine For Socrates in Platoes common wealth whom your Clemens in this place citeth and calleth Graecorum sapientissimum the wisest of the Graecians rehearsing the prouerbe which Clemens here vseth inferreth that the coniunction of men women and procreation of children ought to bee common which is a monstruous and heinous errour And were that excused the the rest is a shamefull absurditie that all other thinges ought of necessitie to bee common amongst christians For the Scriptures do not exact that no maÌ„ should possesse any thing but onely that charitie should gladly distribute supply the wantes of such as neede Phi. Your selfe thinke this to be forged in Clementes name Theo. We do but you do not and therefore against you the instance is good The next is Tertullians testimonie who saith of the Bishop of Rome that he agnised the prophesies of Montanus and sent letters of communion and peace to the churches in Asia and Phrygia that were of that sect Phi. But hee reuoked those letters and ceased from that purpose as Tertullian also confesseth Theo. Hee reuoked them after they were sent and ceased from that which he first acknowledged Episcopum Romanum tunc agnoscentem prophetias Montani ex ea cognitione pacem Ecclesiis Asia Phrygiae inferentem falsa de ipsis prophetis adseuerando coegit literas pacis reuocare tam emissas a proposito recipiendorum schismatum concessare Praxeas the heretike forced the Bishoppe of Rome then agnising the Prophesies of Montanus and vppon good liking of them giuing peace to their Churches in Asia and Phrygia to reuoke his letters of coÌ„munion when they were sent and to cease from his purpose of embracing their doctrine Phi. Tertullian was of that sect himselfe and therefore no indifferent witnes Theo. Indifferent enough to report the fact though not to iudge
the Recordes that lay at Rome in your own keeping and the thing not spied Phi. A name is soone thrust in Theo. But whole sentences and whole leaues can not bee thrust in without stealing away the original laying a counterfeit in place thereof which was easie to be discerned Honorius cause is mentioned discussed in 26 seueral places of the councell two of his epistles repeated at large one of 9. skore 12. lines the other of threeskore and sixteene lynes which argue the whole councel to be forged or these branches concerning Honorius to be as sincere as the rest Phi. One Councell is soone corrupted Theo. But may you reiect your owne Recordes as forged and bring neither reason suspition nor probabilitie when by whom or how this was or could bee done Giue vs leaue to doe the like to the rest of your Romish Records where good cause leadeth vs and see what wil become of your Religion Phi. In deede this one we thinke to be forged Theo. A generall Councell repeating the matter which you sticke at more than twentie times and lying safe in your owne custodie you suspect to bee forged and vpon no ground but onely because it condemneth a Bishoppe of Rome for an heretike and yet you can not denie that but you must denie more Leo the second accursed Honorius his predecessour for the same heresie The seconde Councell of Nice which you greatly reuerence and call the seuenth generall Councell confesseth Honorius was condemned in the sixt generall Councell and themselues reiect him by name for an heretike whereto the Legates of Adrian then Bishoppe of Rome there present consented and subscribed Adrian the seconde in a Councell at Rome confessed that Honorius once Bishoppe of Rome was accused of heresie and condemned after his death by the consent of the Romane See and this his confession was read and allowed in the eight generall Councell of Constantinople If al these be forged that at Rome where your selues were the keepers how good cause haue we to suspect the rest of your euideÌ„ce which tend chiefly to vphold the Popes pride to encrease his gaine agree neither with theÌ„selues nor with the state of those times wherein they should be written nor with the best and approued stories of the Church Phi. Synce three generall Councels recken Honorius as condemned of heresie and specially the Decretall of Leo the second which the Bishoppes of Rome woulde soone haue disclaimed if it had beene suspected I dare not say that all these are forged for feare lest I ouerthrowe the credite of all Romane Recordes and therefore I thinke rather the Councell that first condemned him mistooke his meaning or that the letters which they sawe were written in his name by some euill willers of his both which cases are possible Theo. You mend this gappe and make a bigger You saue the Romane Libraries from corrupt Recordes and vpbrayde a generall councel with rash iudgement and lacke of vnderstanding for if they condemned Honorius not onely their brother but also their better as you take him and the head of the Church for an heretike and that after his death and either conceiued not the sense of his woordes or tooke not heede to the seale and subscription of his letters that those were Authentike they deseruâ—d not to bee counted Christians much lesse to goe for a lawfull and generall Councell And the Bishoppes of Rome that came after and confirmed the same when they might and should haue reprooued the Councell of indiscretion or malice and defended the innocencie of Honorius were not successours to him but conspiratours against him and so none of your shiftes are either sound or likely Howsoeuer you wrangle with the fact yet this is euident and without contradiction that three generall Councels eche after other were of opinion the Pope might liue and die an heritike and Agatho Leo Adrian the first and second all Bishoppes of Rome confessed thus much by their Decretals and yeelded thereto by their subscriptions Which if you graunt condemne or acquite Honorius of heresie at your pleasures Wee haue the full consent of the East and West Churches that the Bishoppe of Rome may erre which you at this present so stifly deny Phi. If one did erre the number is not so great Theo. If one did others may yet I haue named three that were condemned for heresie and Apostasie Marcellinus Liberius Honorius and moe I might that erred in like manner as Vigilius Anastatius Celestinus and others but I see you are determined to beleeue none that make against you in this point and therefore I were as good saue my labour as spend longer time with one that is past all sense Phi. If you prooue they erred I will not defende them Theo. But in reporting their sayings and doings you giue credite to none bee they neuer so indifferent and auncient Phi. Wee credite them if a greater number of writers doe not contradict them Theo. If certaine late fauourers of the Pope without trueth or shame doe gainesay the Stories that went before them thinke you the partiall and corrupt writinges of such men woorthie to bee taken against others that bee both elder and syncerer Phi. I euer goe with antiquitie and vniuersalitie Theo. But when you come to the push you care neither for fathers nor Councels Prouinciall nor generall if they crosse your affections or touch the Popes ambition There ancient writers liuing in the same time with Liberius affirme that he subscribed to the Arrians and Sozomene that wrate within 40. yeres of the deed doing saith no lesse you beleeue neither them nor your owne stories which with one consent followed that report till some in our age to make the Popes Tribunal infallible began not only to doubt but also to deny Liberius fact Two general Councels condemne Honorius for an heretike and the third auouâ—heth him to haue been condemned not without the knowledge of his successours the bishops of Rome that came after him You regard neither Popes nor Synods where they say that Honorius erred in other things where you thinke they make with you they shall be sacred and auncient fathers Councels as though you were not bound to yeeld vnto trueth but that onely were trueth which liked you Phi. Liberius was forced and Honorius deceiued with a likelyhood of trueth this is all you can get of these sacred and ancient fathers and Councels Theo. We need no more No man falleth from the faith but he is either forced or deceiued and yet this wee get besides which we most esteeme that these fathers and Councels were of opinion and saw by experience the Bishop of Rome did and might erre Yeeld to this and wee remit you the rest Phi. Not till I see what else you will bring You talke of Vigilius and Anastasius but I thinke more than you can proue Theo. Of Vigillius
Why then shoulde the loose life or false doctrine of some Bishops preiudice others either in the same office with them or in the same place before and after them since the things bee needefull though the men be sinâ—ull The chaire is not the worse though the Bishoppe may erre But you stande in contention with vs that the Bishoppe of Rome can not erre and nowe you say hee may erre without preiudice to his office and Seate which wee graunt For his charge to teach and power to bind common to him with all Bishoppes is not abolished nor abated though some did or hereafter should abuse it In the meane time this shaketh the Popes Tribunall which you giue him ouer the whole Church For if he may erre in fayth which you confesse then can he not be supreme iudge of all others in matters of fayth lest the whole church should bee bound to forsake her faith which shee may not vppon one erroneous iudgement of his which is possible and easte to happen Phi. Not possible Popes may erre personally but not iudicially that is they may erre in person vnderstanding priuate doctrine or writings but they neither can nor euer shall iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshoode or heresie against the Catholike faith in their Consistories Courts Councels Decrees Deliberations or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies douts or questions of fayth as shall bee proposed vnto them because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren Theo. What prayer or promise of Christ is it that you speake of Phi. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Theo. Are you in your fiue wittes to make such constructions of Christes wordes Phi. Why so Theo. Where lyeth faith in a mans heart mouth or hands Phi. What a wise question that is aske it not for very shame Theo. Nay answere it with shame enough Or if you will not S. Paul will Corde creditur we beleeue with the heart sayth he and confesse with the mouth So that if faith be not in our lippes much lesse in our fingers Phi. Who euer doubted of that Theo. Then is there no doubt but your deprauing the prayer and promise of Christ will soone bee perceiued of al men For if Christ prayed for Peter and as you racke it for his successours that their fayth shoulde not fayle Ergo the true faith of Christ must alwayes be kept in their hearts though their mouthes faile as Peters did when hee denyed his master with his lippes whom in hart he knewe to bee the sonne of the liuing God Now you turne it cleane contrarie You graunt the Popes heart may fall from faith to infidelitie and heresie but his mouth you defend shal be kept from pronouncing it as if Christ had prayed not for Peters hart where his faith remained but for Peters mouth which failed thrise before the cocke crewe notwithstanding his masters prayer and promise that very night This is absurd enough and yet the rest is more absurd when you graunt the Pope may erre in person that is both with heart and mouth but if hee once get on his robes and ascend his Tribunall he can not erre As if Christ had prayed not for the men but for the walles neither for the Persons but for the Places which is direct against the words of our sauiour For he sayth not I haue prayed for thy Tribunals Courtes and Consistories that they shall not erre but I haue prayed for thee noting his person that thy faith that is the perswasion of thine heart beleeuing and trusting in me shall not vtterly faile but the sparkles of my grace remaining in thee shall renue thee by repentance Christ prayed for the person not for the place How then can you say that the Person may erre but not the place Phi. The Person shall bee stroken with feare as was Vigilius or preuented by death as was Anastasius that hee shall not be able to accomplish his wicked intent in open place Theo. Call you that the prayer of Christ for the Popes fayth or the plague of God vpon him for his infidelitie Phi. Cal it what you will God will not suffer him to giue definitiue sentence for heresie against the faith Theo. Shew vs the warrant that God will not suffer it and wee are answered Phi. The promise of our sauiour that Peters faith should not faâ—le Theo. Then this you make to be the effect of Christes woordes I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth shall not fayle that is notwithstanding my prayer for thee thy successours may be heretikes idolaters Apostataes and ruÌ„negates from me but I wil strike them with feare or peruert them with death that they shall not in open Court by definitiue sentence iniect â—y Church Are you not religious interpreters of the Scriptures when you delude them and interlace them with such commentaries Phi. Caiphas by priuilege of his office prophesied right of Christ though according to his own knowledge and faith he knew not Christ. And why may not the Pope haue the like priuilege Theo. Balaams Asse reproued the madnes of his master Why should not the Popes Asse haue the like priuilege Phi. You scoffe at our reasons you refell them not Theo. They neede no better refutation For out of a particular fact that is rare and vncertaine you conclude a generall and constant Rule God vsed the mouth of Caiphas the high Priest without his meaning to declare the necessitie and vtilitie of Christes death Hence you would inferre that no high Priest could erre in iudgement and consequently not the Pope as being belike successour to Caiphas that put Christ to death By the same cuÌ„ning you may conclude God vsed Balaams mouth against Balaams will to blesse Israel therefore no false Prophet can haue a lying spirit in his mouth Or God stirred vp the spirit of Daniel when he was a very child to coÌ„uince the two iudges of their vnrighteous proceeding against Susanna therefore children cannot want the spirit of direction in iudgement Or Pilats wife perceaued by her dreames that Christ was innocent therefore weomens dreames are alwayes true Phi. These illations be very foolish Theo. Yours is scant so good For in your example God ouerruled the hie-Priests mouth in such sort that in giuing the Iewes wicked and haynous counsel to kill the sonne of God his words receaued a double sense One cruel bloudie perswading them to murder the author of that new doctrine for feare least the Romanes should take it as an occasion to destroy the whole nation which was Caiphas mind and purpose The other confessing that his death should saue the people from destruction which declareth the vertue and force of his Passion Which he neither ment nor knew but God so tempered his tongue that in writing his furious malice against Christ his wordes stood indifferent for both constructions
Thus S. Cyril largely sheweth In the proposition of Caiphas there is contained a double sense one which Caiphas himselfe ment that it was expedient Christ should die by the hands of the Iewes lest the whole Nation should bee destroyed by the Romanes This was a false and wicked meaning comming from the lewd intention of Caiphas An other sense of the same proposition was intended by the holy Ghost that it was needfull that only Christ should die for the saluation of the whole world This Caiphas neither vnderstood nor ment yet his wordes were such as might fitly serue this sense of the holy Ghost For Caiphas himself as crueller readier to wickednes and bloodier than the rest encourageth others staggering at it by saying you perceaue nothing neither vnderstād you that it is expediēt the life of one man should be neglected for the whole coūtrie Phi. He spake this by the holy Ghost Theo. The diuell possessed his hart but the power of God restrained and ordered his speach Phi. Had he not the Spirit of Prophesie Theo. No more than Saul the bloudsucker had when he praied for Dauid whom hee sought to kill than Iudas the traytor had when he iustified his master and hanged himselfe yea than the Dyuell had when hee confessed and intreated the Sonne of God not to torment him before his time Phi. Why then doth S. Iohn giue this note of him that he was hie Priest for that yere Theo. S. Iohn noteth this that it pleased God so to temper the hie Priests wordes that where hee spake to hasten the death of our Sauiour his wordes sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning Phi. His tongue spake trueth though his hart did erre Theo. Satan poisoned his hart but GOD bridled his mouth Phi. Can not God doe the like to the Bishop of Rome Theo. No doubt he can but you must proue that he will Phi. If he did so to Caiphas much more will hee do it to the head of his Church Theo. How hangeth this geare together Hee did once so to Caiphas ergo hee will always doe the like where you list to haue it Phi. Not where we list but where he will Theo. That helpeth you litle God can do the like where whē he wil. What is that to the Bishop of Rome We doubt not of Gods power but smile at your folly which conclude this to be ordinarie in the Pope which was extraordinarie in Caiphas Phi. It was ordinarie in Caiphas by reason of his office and so saith S. Iohn The. S. Iohn doth not say it was ordinarie either in al hie priests or in Caiphas for Caiphas himself the very same yere as S. Matt. witnesseth iudicially pronounced our Sauiour to be a blasphemer which I hope you will not say came from the direction of the holy Ghost The hie Priest therefore did erre and that most hainously in iudgement and if this be al your hold the Pope may doe the like Phi. What may be is hard to determine But this we know the Pope did neuer yet erre sitting in his Tribunal to giue iudgement Theo. As though the place and not the Pope had assurance of trueth annexed vnto it What holines hath the Consistorie to safegard the iudge from error The promise of Christ was made to the person and not to the place Phi. To the person but sitting in iudgement Theo. Did Peter sitte in iudgement at that time when he denied his master Phi. Wee say not so Theo But that night was the promise made vnto him and that night performed in him when Peter poore man stoode warming himselfe amongst the manye and durst not answer the first interrogatorie that a silly wenche proposed to him And therefore Christ neuer spake of your Courtes nor Consistories but promised Peter to pardon his fault and to strengthen his faith lest hee should perseuere in that his Apostasie Phi. Had we no warrant for the Bishop of Rome that his faith shall not faile yet experience proueth this which we say to be true that he neuer erred iudicially that is sitting in his Consistorie Theo. What need we care where he sate so long as we bee sure he did erre What wrangling is this to aske for the place where and the time when the Pope spake the wordes Hee that may erre at home may likewise erre abroade If the Pope bee an heretike in his chamber hee can be no Catholike in his Consistorie Phi. Definitiue sentence he neuer gaue any against the faith Theo. What are his decretals but definitiue sentences And in those he hath erred Phi. Neuer Theo. The Decretal of Clemens which I before alleaged is altogether erronious They were two Decretall Epistles for the which Honorius was condemned The decretal of Vigilius which Liberatus remembreth is expresly against the faith Celestinus erred iudicially as your owne friendes confesse but you haue pared that Decretall as you haue done many others and left out the later part lest we should spie the fault Phi. Who told you so Theo. They that had no cause to belie you Alfonsus a great Patrone of your side sayth It is a thing manifest to al men that Pope Celestinus erred touching the mariage of the faithful when either part falleth into heresie Neither was this error of Celestinus such as ought to be imputed only to negligence so that we may say he erred as a priuate person and not as Pope because this decision of Celestinus was in the auncient Decratals which I my selfe haue seene and read Innocentius the third when he decided the case confessed that one of his predecessours had decreed otherwise which saith the gloze was Celestinus whose resolution was in the olde Decretals and it was euil that Celestinus sayd Alexander the 3. in a matter of great importance said Quamuis aliter a quibusdam praedecessoribus nostris sit aliquando iudicatum though some of our predecessours haue heretofore otherwise giuen iudgement Phi. These were matters of mariage and not of faith Theo. As though the seuering of those whom God hath ioyned did not touch the faith and so did some of these Popes and that iudicially by their contrarie Decrees Againe Nicolas the fourth sayth in his Decretal that To renounce the proprietie of all thinges not in special only but in common also is meritorious and holy which Christ taught by word and confirmed by example and the first foūders of the militant church deriued to others by the paterne of their doctrine life Iohn the 22. sayth it is hereticall to affirme that Christ his Apostles had nothing in speciall nor in common Phi. The next extrauagant reconcileth them both Theo. The Pope laboureth for life to shift off the matter at last commeth with a very iest De sola abdicatione proprietatis non iuris alterius in praefata declaratione
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
neither can you of a promise which is common to all establish a priuate Tribunall for one man from the which the spirit of trueth shal not depart as you professe of the Popes Consistorie Phi. If he may erre how can he be iudge of al others Theo. You say wel since by the consent and confession of your own church foureteene hundred yeres after Christ he may erre we conclude he can not bee supreme iudge of faith nor Soueraigne directer of Princes in those cases Phi. Was our whole Church of that opinion so lately Theo. Shew euer any learned man of your side that sayde or helde otherwise Phi. Nay shewe you they held so Theo. I haue already shewed so much Phi. You haue named some priuate men that wrate so Theo. The strongest pillours of your Church Phi. But you say this opinion was generall Theo. If you consider how earnestly and openly this was asserted by the best and neuer contradicted by any no not by those that tooke vpon them to bee the chiefe Proctours and Patrones for the Pope your selfe will say it was generall and confessed on all sides Your owne Decrees that will not haue the Pope reprooued for any fault adde this exception Nisi deprehendatur a fide deuius vnlesse hee bee founde to swarue from the fayth The Bishoppes of Fraunce and Germanie gathered at Brixia and Mogunce against Gregorie the seuenth condemned him as The auncient disciple of the heretike Berengarius a vera fide exorbitantem and swaruing from the true fayth His owne Cardinals and Bishoppes that were at Rome made this profession against him Ad destruendas haereses nouiter ab Hildebrando inuentas consedimus We assembled to destroy the heresies lately deuised by Pope Hildebrand And in special wordes Hoc est decretum Hildebrandi in quo a Doctrina fide Catholica aberrauit This is Hildebrands decree in which hee erred from the Catholike doctrine and fayth Robert Grosseteste Bishoppe of Lincolne reuerenced of your Church for a Saint lying on his death proued the Pope not onely might bee but was an heretike by sundry reasons and by the very definition of heresie and for the possibilitie of the matter alleageth the Popes owne testimonie Item dicit Decretalis quod super tali vitio videlicet haeresi potest debet Papa accusari The Decretall sayth that for heresie the Pope may and ought to be accused But what speake I of one Bishop Six hundred Prelates an hundred foure and twentie Diuines and almost three hundred Lawyers with the whole Colledge of Cardinals in your generall Councell of Pisa deposed two Popes Gregorie the twelfth and Benedict the thirteenth as schismatikes and heretikes Your Councell of Constance where as you say were 4. Patriarkes 29. Cardinals 47. Archbishoppes 270. Bishops 564. Abbats and Doctours in all aboue nine hundred deposed the same Benedict persisting in his Popedom notwithstanding the former sentence as being schismaticum haereticum ac a fide deuium articuli fidei Vnam sanctam Catholicam Ecclesiam violatorem pertinacem notorium manifestum a schismatike and an heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith one holy Catholike Church And in the same Councel it was obiected to Iohn the 23. Quod dictus Iohannes Papa 23. saepe saepius coram diuersis Prelatis alijs honestis probis viris pertinaciter Diabolo suadente dixit asseruit dogmatizauit astruxit vitam eternam non esse quin imo dixit pertinaciter credidit animam hominis cum corpore humano mori extingui ad instar animalium brutorum dixÃt que mortuum semel esse in nouissimo die minimè resurrecturum contra articulum de resurrectione mortuorum That often and very often before diuers Prelates and other honest and approoued men hee sayd auouched vttered as his iudgement egerly defended that there is no life euerlasting yea moreouer hee sayde and resolutely beleeued that the soule of man dieth and perisheth with the bodie after the maner of other beasts and that hee which was once dead should not rise in the last day contrarie to the article of the resurrection of the dead Your generall councell of Basil which Germanie Fraunce Englande the Dukedome of Millan and many other Countries so greatly esteemed gaue the like iudgement not yet seuen skore seuen yeres agoe against Eugenius the 4. and iudicially pronounced him to bee schismaticum a fide deuium pertinacem haereticum a schismatike erring from the fayth and a stubburne heretike Lastly your diuines of Paris but last day resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him and if Peter did there can bee no question but his successours may since they claime from him and not before him If this bee not the generall consent of your owne Church I knowe not what is If it bee then by the full and cleare confession of your selues for 1400. yeeres the Pope might stray from the faith and become an heretike Phi. There is not one of your examples but may be replied to Theo. Graunt they might yet this is most sure which I conclude that they were al of this opinion the Pope coulde erre Phi. What if that opinion were not true Theo. That must you proue It is enough for mee to shewe that not onely the church of Christ in former ages but your owne Church euen vntil our age held this opinion of Popes that they could erre What reason you haue or can haue to impugne their opinion let the world iudge We thinke you within the compasse of Alfonsus censure if ye be not worse Phi. What if wee should graunt the Pope may erre as al men may That doeth not diminish his power Theo. A iudge must haue two thinges before hee bee competent namely skill to discerne that hee misse not the trueth and power to commaund that his iudgement may take place If he want either hee is no fit iudge Phi. You say right and both these the Pope hath in most ample maner Theo. He hath neither Erre he may and therefore no man is bound to his iudgement farther than it standeth with the word of truth and so farre the greatest Princes in the world are bound to the meanest man that God doth send For God is truth they that resist the truth resist God and the end of them al that resist is damnation which Princes shal not auoyde vnlesse they submit themselues to the hearing embracing and obeying of the truth And as hee may erre so hath hee no power to commaund Princes or others but only to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must may by vertue of his vocation Farther authority by violence to compel or by corporal and external meanes to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the lawe of God since that belongeth to the
sworde which the Prince and not the Priest beareth in Gods behalfe to force refusers and chastiâ—e malefactours as I before at large haue proued And so by consequent Princes are neither bound to the Popes hest for direction nor in daunger of the Popes court for correction but that they may by the aduise and instruction of such as bee learned and godly pastors about them vse their swords for the receiuing setling of trueth and perfect establishing of Christs wil testament within their owne realmes without expectâ—ng or regarding what the bishops of Rome and his adherentes like or allow Phi. But all this while you resolue not who shall be iudge which is the true will and Testament of Christ. Theo. Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe We find no place nor person to whom the sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his wil but only to himselfe Phi. You bind the people to followe the Prince which of all others is the worst way to come by truth Theo. We bind no man to prince nor Pope for matters of faith Only we say subiects must endure their princes with patience when they command for error obey them with diligence when they maintaine the truth Farther or other seruitude in causes of conscience wee lay on no man and that burden the church of Christ neuer refused neither vnder heretikes Apostataes nor infidels til the Pope growing great by the ruine of the Empire and encreasing as fast in pride as he did in wealth would needs giue the aduenture to rule kingdomes depose Princes though by Gods lawe hee haue no more power nor iurisdiction ouer them than any other Bishop hath which is so farre from that he claimeth and vsurpeth that he as well as other Bishops should be subiect to the sword and obedient to the lawes of the Romane Emperour and so was hee as I haue plainely shewed to the time that forsaking the Grecians and reuolting from the Germanes hee learned to chaunge Lords so often that at length what with sedition of subiects dissention of princes superstition of al sorts the mysterie of iniquitie working he made himselfe Lord and master of all Phi. You bee lothe I see to yeeld the bishop of Rome any right to force princes to their dueties Theo. And you be as willing he should not only take their crownes but tread on their neckes though hee haue no right to superuise their doings or censure their persons Phi. If it be not his right we aske it not Theo. If it be his right we resist it not Phi. Will you admit it if we proue it Theo. Will you not claime it except you proue it Phi. We will not Theo. Then say what you will or can for the confirmation of it THE THIRD PART REFELLETH THE IESVITES REASONS AND authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes and the bearing of armes by subiectes against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings and Princes and conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thowsande yeares after Christ and none agnised by any Christian Prince vntill this present daie Phi. THE Pope may reproue Princes excommunicate them and if neede bee depose them which other Bishoppes can not doe Theo. Seuer these thinges which you ioyne togither and the truth will the sooner appeare Reproue them he may when they violate the precepts of God and so may any other Bishop or teacher For God hath placed them in his church to teach reproue instruct reforme as wel Princes as others charged them not to conceale one word of that he hath spoken neither for fauour nor terrour of any Prince The will of God must be declared to all and sinne reproued in all without dissembling or flattering with any sort or State of men and that is most expedient for all euen for Princes themselues rather to heare with humilitie what God hath decreed for their saluation than to run to their owne destruction without recalling or warning So Samuel reproued king Saul Ahias king Ieroboam Elias king Achab Elizeus king Iehoram Iohn Baptist king Herod Neither were wicked Princes onely but also the good and vertuous kinges of Iudah reproued by the Prophets as namely king Dauid by Nathan king Iehosaphat by Iehu and Ezechias by the Prophet Esaie but this reproofe reached no farther than to put them in minde of Gods graces and mercies towardes them and their dueties againe towardes him They neuer offered violence to their Persons nor preiudice to their States onely they did Gods message vnto them without halting or doubling and so should euery Preacher and Bishop not feare with meekenesse and reuerence to laye before Princes the sacred and righteous will of God without respect whether Princes tooke it in good or euill part But farther or other attemptes against Princes than in wordes to declare the will and precepts of God God hath not permitted vnto Preachers Prophets Prelats nor Popes Phi. Yes they may repell them from the Sacramentes which is more than reprouing them in words Theo. If you meane they may not minister the Sacramentes vnto Princes without faith and repentance which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or haue accesse to his table we graunt they must rather hazard their liues than baptize Princes which beleeue not or distribute the Lordes mysteries to them that repent not but giue wilful and open signification of impietie to the dishonoring of his name that is authour of those thinges and the prophaning of the thinges them-selues which bee holie and vndefiled For if Princes will bee partakers of Gods aboundaunt blessinges proposed in Christ his Sonne to all that beleeue and conuert they must not looke to commaund God and his Sacramentes but with lowlines of hart assuraunce of fayth and amendment of life submit themselues vnder the mighty hand of God to receiue his graces in such sort as hee hath prescribed otherwise they prouoke God to their vtter and eternall ouerthrowe and the minister that ioyned with them in their sinnes shall not bee seuered from them in their plagues God hating and punishing the pride and presumption of Princes against him-selfe as much as the vices of meaner men or rather more No small vengeance sayth Chrysostom hangeth ouer your heades which be ministers if you suffer any heynous offendour to be partaker of this table His blood shall be required at your hands Whether he be Captaine Lieutenant or crowned king if hee come vnworthily forbid him in this case thy power is greater than his Phi. If they may be excommunicated ergo they may be deposed Theo. How doth that follow Phi. Well enough When a Prince is excommunicated hee looseth all right to rule and his subiectes are streight-wayes free from yeelding any obedience to him Theo. Who tould you so Phi. No catholike Diuine of
and shunne the wicked when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates to represse them or punish them may not rashly be stretched to the Magistrates person or function neither must you so force generall and indirect speeches of the Scripture that they shall euert the speciall and expresse commaundements of God But God hath expressely prescribed subiection and tribute to vitious tyrannous and Idolatrous Princes for such they were of whom Christ and his Apostles spake as no man can denie Therefore no consequent of Scripture may be wrested against it least you make the wil of God changeable or repugnant to it selfe which is heinous impietie to perswade or beleeue Phi. To tyrants and idolaters we must he subiect but not to heretikes although they bee Princes Theo. Confessing the former which you can not chose but admit by what meanes auoide you the later Heretiks may be Princes as well as idolaters and to Princes in respect of their power not of their vertues God will haue vs subiect S. Paul doeth not say Let euerie soule bee subiect to christian and vertuous powers but vnto supreme powers euen whē they were worshippers of diuels and spillers of christian blood Let vs therefore heare what ground you haue out of Gods law why this precept you must be subiect shall hold in blasphemous and Idoolatrous Princes but not in hereticall or excommunicate persons Phi. I told you before S. Iohn saith If any man bring not this doctrine salute him not Theo. Did those Tyrants and idolaters that were Prnces whiles S. Iohn liued bring the doctrine of Christ with them Phi. No but this is ment of heretikes Theo. It was spoken of all as well impugners as betraiers of the faith and why then do you restraine it to heretikes Phi. Christians might eate with Infidels but not with heretikes Theo. They might with those that were ignorant of the faith with purpose no winne them but not with those that impugned the faith for that could haue none other intent but feare or flatterie And with such S. Paul forbiddeth the christians all concord communion and fellowship Draw not the yoke with infidels For what fellowship hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnesse what communion hath light with darknesse what concord hath Christ with Belial or what part hath the beleeuer with the infidel Wherefore come out from among them and separate your selues saith the Lord. Separate your selues from them is as much as salute them not or eate not with them and yet were Christians bound to obey such with all submission if they were Magistrates Againe they might not eate with adulterers raylers drunkards extorsioners nor with any couetous persons might they therefore disobey the magistrate that was spotted with any of these or the like vices Phi. Not except hee were excommunicated for those vices Theo. Then neither Apostasie nor heresie depriue Princes of their authoritie but excommunication only which you may inflict as well for any disorder as for heresie Phi. What fault finde you with that Theo. You make excommunication but a limetwigge to intangle the persons and indaunger the states of Princes by maintaining rebellion against them vnder the name of religion when they wil not be ruled as you would haue them or not suffer their Realmes to ly open to the pray and pride of the Bishop of Rome For then hee must take vppon him to be the whole church which he is not excommunicate them whom hee should not and after that excommunication denounced you teach the people to refuse subiection to beare armes against their lawfull Magistrates vppon this pretence that you haue deposed them and disinherited them of their kingdoms which is a wicked and false presumption of yours resistant to the lawes of God and man For graunt hee might excommunicate them which yet is not proued the vttermost perill of excommunication before men is that which our Sauiour expresseth in Sainct Matthewes Gospel If he neglect to heare the church let him bee to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane But Ethnikes by your confession may not bee depriued of their kingdomes ergo neither persons excommunicate Againe your owne lawe graunteth that excommunication dischargeth neither seruauntes children nor wiues from the duetie which they owe to the father of the familie and shall it set free subiectes from a stronger and higher bonde of duetie which God hath more straitly prescribed and inioyned them to the father of their Countrie What wilfull and obstinate blindnesse is this in you that where excommunication is a meere spirituall punishment and reacheth no farther by Gods Lawe than to take from offenders the remission of their sinnes by wanting the worde and Sacramentes vntill they repent you to gratifie the founder of your Rhemish and Romish hospitales stretch it vnto the states Crownes lymmes and liues of Princes and deriue thence not onely the deposing but also the murdering of Christian kinges and Queenes and that by their owne subiectes if hee saie the worde And this you assaie to perswade by corrupting and maintaining the Scriptures bolstering the conspiracies and impieties of your holy father against Princes with an vnshamefast prophaning and adulterating of the worde of truth which is not the least of your irreligious attemptes Resist your places and shewe vs but one halfe worde out of the holie Scripture that Princes may be iudicially deposed by Priestes or that you haue authoritie from Christ to punish such as you excommunicate with externall and temporal paines and losses which is it that you now would faine inferre and for the rest though wee neede not you shall haue our assents Phi. Least any man should thinke this power to bee so meerely spirituall that it might not in any wise be extended to temporall or corporall domage or chastisement of the faithfull in their goods liues possessions or bodies being meere secular thinges and therefore not subiect to their Pastours spirituall or Priestly function it is to bee marked in the holy Apostles first execution of their commissions authority that though their spirituall power immediatly directly concerneth not our temporall affaires yet indirectly and as by accident it doth not only concerne our soules but our bodies goods so farre as is requisite to our soules health and expedient for the good regiment thereof and the churches vtility being subiect to their spirituall Gouernours Theo. It is to be marked that if you may be suffered you will soone chalenge not only spirituall things as your peculiar but euen the goods liues possessions and bodies of the faithfull and as well of Princes as others to be subiect to your tribunals if not directly yet indirectly that is if not by one means yet by an other so far as you thinke it expedient for the regiment health of the soule vtility of the church that shall be far enough I dare vndertake If you affirme this vpon your own credite we little esteeme it your
you Marke howe Paul deliuered the man of Corinth to Satan Eijciebatur nempe a communi fidelium caetu hee was cast out of the congregation of the faythfull hee was cutte off from the flocke of Christ and left naked and being so destitute of Gods helpe hee lay open to the Wolfe and subiect to euerie assault So sayth Theodorete By this place where Paul deliuered the incestuous Corinthian to Satan we are taught that the diuell inuadeth them which are seuered cut off from the bodie of the church finding them destitute of Gods grace Keepe your selues therefore within your limites Pastors haue their charge which is as S. Paul noteth to watch ouer soules they haue not to doe with the goods or bodies of the faithfull Their goods are Caesars by the plaine resolution of our Sauiour Giue vnto Caesar the thinges which are Caesars Which God willed Samuel to aduertise the people of when they first demaunded a king Shew them the right or law of the king that shall raigne ouer them And so Samuel did saying This shall be the law of your king He shall take your sonnes and appoint them for his charets and to be his horsemen shal make theÌ„ captaines ouer thowsandes captaines ouer fiftyes set them to eare his grounds to reape his haruest to make his instruments of war things to serue for his charets And he wil take your fields vines best olyues giue them to his seruants And he wil take the tenth of your corn wine giue it to his Princes seruitors And he wil take your men seruaÌ„ts maideseruants the choice of your yong meÌ„ your asses vse theÌ„ to his work The tenth of your sheep wil he take ye shal be his seruaÌ„ts Phi. Make you the king Lord of al without exception Theo. Though God neuer ment that Princes inordinate priuate pleasures should wast consume the wealth of their Realmes yet may they iustly commaunde the goods and bodies of all their Subiects in time both of warre and peace for any publike necessitie or vtilitie Whereby God declareth Princes and not Pastours to bee the right ouerseers of temporall and earthlie matters and consequentlie that the power of the keyes extendeth not to those thinges which are committed to the Princes charge I meane neither to the goods nor to the bodies of christian men To a king sayth Chrysostom are the bodies of men committed to the Priest their soules The king pardoneth corporall offences the Priest remitteth the guiltinesse of sinne The king compelleth the Priest exhorteth the one with force the other with aduise the kings weapons are sensible the Priâ—stes are Ghostly The like distinction betweene them doth S. Hierom make Rex nolentibus praest Episcopus volentibus ille timore subijcit hic seruituti donatur ille corpora custodit ad mortem hic animas seruat ad vitam The king ruleth men vnwilling the Priest none saue the willing the king hath his in subiection with terrour the Priest is appointed for the seruice of his the king mastereth their bodies with death but the Priest preserueth their soules to life This power of the sword our Sauiour precisely prohibited his Apostles as I haue shewed and therefore you may not indirectly nor by accident chalenge it Phi. Why then did Paul saie Knowe you not that wee shall iudge the Angels howe much more secular matters Theo. If this bee the best hold you haue in the new Testament for secular matters you must take the paynes to light from your horse and goe on your feete as well as your neighbours For the Apostle speaketh that of all Christians which you restraine to Priests and moueth the parties striuing rather to make their brethren arbiters of their quarrelles than to persue one an other before Infidels What grant is this to you in your owne right to bee iudges ouer your brethren in all secular affaires and not onely without their consents to determine their griefes but also to bereaue them of their goods and lands and afflict their bodies yea to pull the sword out of Princes handes take their Crownes from their heades when the rulers are beleeuers as well as the Preachers Do you not know saith S. Paul that the Saincts not onely Priests shal iudge the world If the world then shal be iudged by you speaking to all that were of the church at Corinth are ye vnworthy to iudge the smalest matters He saith not it was their right to iudge secular matters but they were worthy to bee trusted with them whom God would trust with greater and shewing that hee spake this of the people not of the Priests he saith If then you haue any iudgementes concerning the thinges of this life make euen the contemptible in the church your iudges Hee saith not God hath made them your iudges but rather thaÌ„ your contending brabling about earthly things which you professe to contemn should be knowen to Ethniks such as hate deride both Christ you your selues make the meanest of your brethren whom you will your iudges Nowe ioyne your conclusion ergo the Pope hath authority to dispose the goods lands and liues of all the faithâ—ul euen of Princes theÌ„selues be they neuer so iust or religious Magistrates and see what a non sequitur you conclude out of S. Pauls wordes Phi. The Primatiue church vnderstood this place of Priests and Bishops as appeareth by Sainct Augustine complaining of the tumultuous perplexities of other mens causes in secular matters to the which troubles sayth he the Apostle hath fastened vs. 1. Corinth 5. The like hee witnesseth of S. Ambrose at Millan And S. Gregory reporteth the same of himselfe at Rome Theo. Trueth it is the Bishoppes of the Primatiue church were greatly troubled with those matters not as ordinarie iudges of those causes but as arbiters elected by the consent of both parties And I coulde requite you with Gregories owne wordes of the same matter in the same place Quod certum est nos non debere which it is certaine we ought not to do but yet I thinke so long as it did not hinder their vocation function though it were troublesome vnto them they might neither in charitie nor in dutie refuse it because it tended to the preseruing of peace loue amongest meÌ„ And the Apostle had licenced all men to choose whom they woulde in the church for their iudges no doubt meaning that they which were chosen shoulde take the paynes to heare the cause and make an ende of the strife But it is one thing to make peace between brethren as they did by heaping their griefes with consent of both sides and an other thing to claime a iudiciall interest in those causes in spite of mens heartes Which wrong you shoulde not offer the least of your brethren much lesse may you
and chastise the bodies of such as offende Preachers may shut the gates of heauen against non-repentants Princes may roote them from the face of the earth and let them feele the iust vengeaunce of their sinnes in this worlde This is the power of Princes which wee say must bee directed by Bishoppes but is not subiected to their willes or Tribunals and though the Preachers charge concerne thinges which bee more perfect and excellent yet that is no reason why Bishoppes should corporally correct or depose Princes no more than if Philosophers or schoolemasters shoulde take vpon them to doe the like because they professe to trayne vp others in wisedome and vertue which farre exceede the feeding or clothing of the bodie which seeme to bee the Princes care And yet may you not rashly exclude the Princes function from caring for religion and vertue It is euident that God first ordained and authorized the sworde to punish error and vice and to maintaine trueth and integritie amongst men and therefore the Princes and the Preachers functions by Gods institution shoulde concurre euen in those Ghostly and heauenly thinges which you would chalenge to your selues the Preacher declaring the Prince establishing the word of trueth the Preacher deliuering the Prince defending the Sacraments of grace the Preacher reproouing the Prince punishing the sinnes and offences of all Degrees and States Howbeit wee must confesse the Preachers seruice in these cases excelleth the Princes for that the woorde in the Preachers mouth engendreth faith and winneth the soule vnto God to serue him with a willing mind whereas the sword in the Princes hand striketh onely a terror into men to refraine the outwarde act but refourmeth not the secrets of the heart Phi. When the temporall power resisteth God or hindereth the proceeding of the people to saluation there the spirituall hath right to correct the temporall and to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church Theo. What you want in proofes you make out in woordes Wee haue heard you I know not how often full solemnly affirme that the Spiritual power hath right to correct the temporal whereby you meane that the Pope may depose the Prince but as yet we see you not prooue it Your exquisite and affected vtterance which is the chiefest furniture of your booke and the best support of your cause can not turne hard into soft nor sower into sweete men must haue some better euidence for the depriuation of Princes before they beleeue it than your meretricious and deintie speach Pastours are you say to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church you shoulde haue added by all meanes possible and lawful for by periurie rebellion and slaughter of Princes though it bee possible yet is it not lawfull to procure the welfare of Christes Church If you receiue that addition and auouche it lawfull for Bishoppes to depese Princes you runne to the point which wee first beganne with absurdly presuming and neuer proouing the thing which is called in question Phi. The Church excelleth the terrene state and Domination as farre as the Sunne passeth the Moone the soule the bodie and heauen the earth By reason of which excellencie and preeminence aboue all states and men without exception of Prince or other our Lorde proclaimeth in his Gospel that whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. You must needes bee cunning in counting howe many degrees a Priest excelleth a Prince Innocentius the third twelue hundred yeeres after Christ beganne this comparison and proueth it out of the Scripture full like a Pope Thou shouldest haue knowen sayth hee to the Emperour that GOD made two great lights in the firmament of heauen the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night Whereby is meant that GOD made two great lightes that is two great dignities which are the Priest and the Prince for the firmament of heauen that is of his vniuersall Church But that which ruleth the day to witte spirituall thinges is the greater that which ruleth carnall thinges is the lesser that wee should acknowledge as great difference to bee betweene Bishops and Princes as there is betweene the sunne and the moone Your gloze setteth downe and casteth by plaine Arythmetike howe much that amounteth to Therefore sayth hee since the earth is seuen tymes bigger than the Moone and the Sunne eyght tymes bigger than the earth it resteth that the Bishoppe bee fourtie seuen tymes greater than the Prince And yet aduising himselfe better for that his totall summe rose no faster hee sheweth out of Ptolomie that the sunne contayneth the bignes of the moone seuen thousande seuen hundred fourtie foure tymes and so many degrees iumpe is euery Bishoppe aboue euery Prince These paringes and offscouringes of your Decretals you haue swept together and vsing the name of the Church to make the matter more saleable though by the Church you vnderstande as they did the Bishoppe of Rome and his Colledge of Cardinals you perfume their follies with a fewe words of your owne and newe proclaime them for some precious wares but take backe the filth and slime of your vnlearned and ill aduised Canonistes wee looke for grauer and better authorities than either your or their flatteries Phi. Whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. I coulde answere you that this place toucheth onely wronges and iniuries done by men to their brethren when as yet there were no Christian Princes And that in these woordes our Sauiour charged his Disciples not to breake the bonde of peace and vnitie with any brother that offered wrong vntill they had first secretly warned them then with witnesses and last of all publikely before the whole multitude of the faithfull where hee and they liued and if after so many lawfull warnings hee ceased not to afflict and vexe his brother the partie grieued should no farther be bound to communicate with him in brotherly loue and charitie no more than hee was with an Ethnike or a Publicane S. Ambrose giueth this note vpon the wordes In te Against thee Pulchrè posuit si peccauerit in te Non enim aequa conditio in deum hominemque peccare The Lorde very well added if hee sinne against thee for the same rule doeth not serue when hee sinneth against God that doeth when hee trespasseth man Saint Hierom likewise If our brother sinne against vs and in any thing doe vs wrong wee haue power to forgiue it yea wee must forgiue it but if a man sinne against God the matter is out of our handes Lest therefore in priuate quarrels and offences men should at their listes forsake the communion and felowshippe of their brethren our Sauiour will haue
ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom no more than his Apostles were if so much and your commission is no larger than theirs if it be so large and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained and taught Christes most deare spouse his very bodie mystical to do the like and shee did so not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to honour them and in earthly things to obay them As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes if that be it you seeke for and not to take their kingdomes from them I tolde you before if they breake the Law of God you may reproue them if they heare you not you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes which is the right intent of your Romish censures as your owne woordes import though your cause were neuer so good as yours is starke naught you then turne religion into rebellion patience into violence wordes into weapons preaching into fighting fidelitie into periurie subiection into sedition and in steede of the seruantes of GOD which you might bee by enduring you become the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned Phi. Your threates were somewhat if the Church had not first deposed them Theo. Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not discharge smaller dueties as of children to their Parents and wiues to their husbandes much lesse greater as subiection othe and loyaltie to Princes Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vnto Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others If they doe then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God Let euery soule and therefore euery Bishoppe bee subiect to the higher Powers that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes depose them and take their power from them You must bee subiect the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list For if they like not their Prince by your Doctrine they may displace him Submit your selues to the king as excelling all others but you will bee sure to excell him and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars but if Caesar anger you you take from him goods Landes Scepter sworde life and all O worthie interpreters of Gods heauenly will A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome such cunning you haue to defeate the commaundementes of the holy Ghost and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes when you lyst to displace them Phi. They bee your foolish additions and not ours Theo. Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions and take the whole cause for your labour Well you may florish with the name of the Church where I say the Bishoppes and require some causes before Princes shoulde bee deposed which I referre to the discretion of the deposer but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion as hee did to Philippe the Faire King of Fraunce to Frederike the second Germane Emperour and to many others Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine but himselfe that either for shame may not or for pride will not relent from his error Phi. Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to haue it done by Lawe order and iudgement Theo. And that solemne proces of Lawe order and iudgement in your Church which you crake of when all is done is nothing els but the Popes pleasure for hee will bee tied neither to Councell nor Canon farther than standeth with his liking his Decrees be Canons and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes orders and iudgements As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes She endured as well heretikes and Apostataes as Pagans and persecutours many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth and eternall reward of her patience Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ in the heighth of his pride and furie gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master and others after him were easily led to followe his example but to this day neuer christian king nor Realme acknowledged or obeyed that power in the Pope which yet he doth wickedly chalenge as you do wilfully defend Phi. It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before and specially by that which followeth Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith as the good and godly haue euer obeyed the Church and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same without euident note of iniustice tyrannie and irreligiositie and were either in fine brought to order penance or else to confusion both temporal and eternal Theo. Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises other enformations you giue none That which is said before is to small purpose that which followeth is to smaller Neuer good nor godly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition and besides the Pope neuer Church Councell nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or heathen Princes What you call orderly discharging of themselues I knowe not the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church such was the blindnes of their times yet openly despised and vtterly resisted his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes and howsoeuer by warres conspiracies and treasons hee tyred some of them God giuing Princes for the neglect of his trueth and number of their sinnes into the handes and power of Antichrist yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise Of their eternall confusion
neither you nor I be fit iudges wee must leaue that to the sonne of God howbeit I see no cause but the Pope is in farre more daunger before God for his impious abusing the keyes to warrant periurie sedition murder and treason against Magistrates than any Prince can bee for the necessarie defending of his person and Realme against such violence The keyes are to bee feared if they be rightly vsed but if you wrenche them to serue your rages you bind your selues not others whom your vngodly dealings can not hurt Your owne Lawe sayth Apud deum eius ecclesiam neminem grauare potest iniqua sententia With God his Church an vniust sentence can burden no man rash iudgement saith S. Augustine hurteth him that iudgeth rashly Phi. About 13. hundered yeres agoe Babylas Bishop of Antioch excommunicated the only Christian King or Emperour that then was as some count Numerius as others Philippe for executing a Prince that was put to him for an hostage Whereupon as euill Kings sometimes doe he martyred his Bishoppe whom S. Chrysostome others reckon for the most famous martyr of that time because he gaue by his constancie and courage is God a notable example to all Bishops of their behauiour towardes their Princes and how they ought to vse the Ecclesiasticall rodde of correction towardes them whatsoeuer befall to their persons for the same After the said Prince had murthered his owne Pastor then holie Pope Fabian for that he was the general sheepheard of Christendome or as some thinke Fabian the successour of Babylas pursued the said Emperour by like excommunication and other meanes till at length hee brought him to order and repentance Afterward Saint Ambrose Bishop of Millan excommunicated the elder Theodosius the Emperour put him to publike penance among the rest of the people commaunded him to put off his Kingly robes to leaue his Emperiall throne in the Chauncel and to keepe his place among the Laitte and prescribed him after eight monethes penance to make a temporall Law for prouiso against the occasions of such crimes as the saide Emperour had committed and for which he was excommunicated This was an other world than we now are in marueilous courage and zeale in Bishops for Gods cause much humilitie and obedience in Princes Then was there no flatterer so shamefull nor heretique on earth so impudent as to make the temporal King aboue all correction of Gods Church and their owne Pastours nothing being more common in the histories of all ages than that Princes haue receiued discipline As when Anastasius the Emperour was excommunicated by Symmachus Lotharius and Micheal Emperours by Nicolas the first and particular Princes by their prouinciall Bishops as we see in the records of all Nations Therefore we will stand only vpon more famous and auncient examples Innocentius the first excommunicated Archadius the Emperour and his wife Queene Eudoxia for that they disobayed and persecuted their Bishoppe S. Chrysostome We will report the iudiciall sentence briefly because it is much to the purpose and full of Maiestie O Emperour said Pope Innocentius well neare 1200 yeres agoe the blood of my brother Iohn Chrysostome crieth to God against thee thou hast cast out of his chaire the great Doctor of the world and in him by thy wiues that delicate Dalida persuasion hast persecuted Christ. Therfore I though a poore sinful soule to whom the throne of the great Apostle Saint Peter is committed doe excommunicate thee and her and do separate you both from the holy Sacraments commaunding that no Priest nor Bishop vnder paine of depriuation after this my sentence come to their knowledge giue or minister the said Sacraments vnto you Theo. Fairely shot but quite besides the marke Phi. Why so Theo. Our question is whether Prelates may depriue Princes of their Crownes and you proue Bishops may deny them the word and Sacraments if the cause so require Phi. Is not that to the purpose Theo. Not a whit You saw we confessed so much before without vrging What need you then spend time to proue it Phi. If you graunt that the rest will soone follow Theo. We did and doe graunt that with heretikes Apostataes be they princes or priuate men no Christian Pastor or people may communicate Phi. Wee desire no more Theo. Inferre then Phi. Ergo no Christian pastour nor people may obay them Theo. This consequent hath beene often framed and often denied and now you beginne with a long discourse to proue the antecedent Phi. The sequele is sure If we may not communicate with them wee may not obay them Theo. What els haue we doone all this while but refell that sequele We may not communicate likewise with Idolaters and Infidels May we therefore not obay them Phi. With Idolaters and Infidels we may not communicate in spirituall and heauenly things but in temporal and earthly we may and for that cause must obay them if they beare the sword Theo. We say the like for Apostataes and heretikes We may not communicate with them in diuine things but in terrene things we may and therefore we must obay them if they beare the sword Phi. Heretikes be excommunicated and so be not Infidels Theo. Infidels be without the Church of their owne accord and heretikes be put out this is all the difference betwixt them Againe your own Law saith and true it is that excommunication doth not hinder any priuate vtilitie necessitie or duty how much lesse doth it barre the publike vtilitie necessitie and dutie that subiects owe their Souereignes But these reasons were euen now opposed against you and you retired from the Scriptures to the vse and practise of of Christs Church promising as we tooke you to bring vs not the selfe same weake and lame sequele which we refuted before but some plaine and apparant example where the Church of Christ deposed Princes from their seats and discharged the subiects from their alleageance This if you doe we be readie to giue you the hearing If you runne bragging and vaunting of an other match we knowe your mishap a rotten tree will neuer yeeld sounde tymber you would if you could and because you do not wee conclude you can not Phi. Yet answere that we bring and of the sequele we will talke farther anon Theo. That I will what bring you Phi. Numerius or Philip it skilleth not whether Theodosius Arcadius Anastasius Lotharius Michael the yongest of them 700 yeres olde though they were great and mightie Princes and Emperours yet were they excommunicated by Bishops Theo. Your owne conclusion you haue suspended till anon in the mean season heare ours and that out of your owne words These Princes were excommunicated as you say but they were also serued honoured and obayed by all their Christian subiects Bishops and others as wee say and you can not denie it ergo we may serue honour and obey Princes notwithstanding they bee
persons excōmunicate and consequently your applying of scriptures that wee may not salute them nor keepe companie with them is a violent deprauing of these textes and refuted by the manifest practise of Christes Church And because wee bee come so farre I will adde somewhat touching the rest of your wise pretences Constantius Valens Valentinian the younger Anastasius Iustinian Heraclius Constantine the 4. and others were hereticall Princes Iulian an open Apostata and yet the Church of Christ endured serued and obeyed them not in temporall things only but in ecclesiasticall also so farre as their Lawes did not impugne the faith or corrupt good manners Phi. You inferre vpon our examples which we can auoyde when wee wil but you answere them not Theo. Our illation which you shall neuer auoyd proueth your examples to conclude for vs and not against vs. You shewe that Princes were remoued from the Sacraments which we graunt but that they were remoued from their kingdomes which we denie that you shewe not and so by your silence you confesse that to bee most true which wee affirme that hereticall and excommunicate Princes must haue their due subiection honour and tribute as they had before they fell to such impieties because they bee perils to their soules not forfeytures of their Crownes Other answere we neede not make you since this will suffice And yet if wee would examine your examples by the pole I coulde take many of them tardie A booke written in Chrysostomes name witnesseth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche excluded a Christian Emperour out of the Church for murdering a young Prince committed to him for an hostage and was martyred by the same tyrant for his constancie but this can not stand with the stories of the Church nor with your owne Author whom you alleage for the repentance and submission that you say this Emperour was after brought to by Fabian the generall sheephearde of Christendome Eusebius who wrate an hundreth yeeres before Chrysostome sayth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison vnder Decius an heathen Tyrant After Philip succeeded Decius who for hatred of Philip persecuted the Church in the which persecution Fabianus Bishoppe of Rome was martyred and Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison after the constant confession of his fayth With him agreeth Nicephorus Babylas sub Decio post confessionem fortiter obitam in vinculis discessit Babylas after hee had made a stout confession of his fayth dyed in Prison vnder Decius If hee died vnder Decius howe coulde hee bee slaine by Philippus or Numerius that were before Decius If hee deceased in Prison how can your Chrysostome say that hee was caried out of Prison to his death and slaine Can you reconcile these thinges and not giue one of your Authors the lie If that declamation were Chrysostomes hee wrate it when he came fresh from the Philosophers schooles as both the stile matter argue and before he was Bishoppe as his owne woordes declare For speaking of the place where Babylas was Bishoppe he sayth Nostri huius gregis curam gerebat he was Pastor of this our flocke and Chrysostome was Bishop of Constantinople not of Antioche Who pursued the saide Emperour by like excommunication for killing his Pastor since the Pastor was aliue after the Emperour was dead and died in prison without any violence neither can you tell neither neede wee care Of Philip Nicephorus sayth no such thing in the place which you quote hee repeateth only that which Eusebius long before reported in these words Of Philip the fame is that fauouring Christ and willing the night before Easter to ioyne with the multitude of Christians in their prayers hee was not suffered so to doe by the Bishoppe that then was vnlesse hee would first acknowledge his sinnes and keepe his place with the repentants Otherwise he could not be admitted because his sinnes were many And they say that hee gladly hearkened to the Bishop and shewed his syncere and religious mynde to God-ward by his deedes The ground of the whole in him that first wrate it is but hearesay the principall matter whether the Prince were remooued from the communion or neuer before admitted to the Lordes table very doubtfull The thing required at his handes was no more but to humble himselfe in the sight of God to whome all Princes must stoope with as great deuotion and submission as the poorest woormes that are on earth The conclusion may bee that Princes then were trayned to Godlinesse but that they were depriued of their kingdomes is a wicked and vngodly suggestion of yours Wee may with as good reason say a Frier many tymes doeth shriue the Pope Ergo a Frier may depose the Pope which I thinke your holy Father will not like of Saint Ambrose is the onely example in all antiquitie which fully proueth that a Bishoppe did prohibite a Prince to enter the Church and to bee partaker of the Lordes table which wee neither deny nor dispraise considering the cause and the manner of the fact The Prince for a tumult raysed by some of the inhabitants of Thessalonica caused his souldiers without finding or searching the doers to murder the people were they straungers or Citizens faultlesse or faultie to the number of seuen thousand After this execution at his next comming to the Church S. Ambrose stepped to the Church dore and sayd Thou seemest O Prince not to vnderstand what a monsterous slaughter of people is committed by thee neither doth rage suffer thee to weigh with thy selfe what thou hast done yet must thou know that from dust we came to dust we shal Let not therfore the brightnes of thy robes hide frō thee the weaknes of flesh that is vnder them Thy subiects are of the same metall which thou art serue the same Lord that thou doest With what eyes therefore wilt thou behold the house of this cōmon Lord with what feete wilt thou tread on his holy pauements Wilt thou reach these hāds dropping yet with the blood of innocents to receiue the most sacred bodie of the Lorde Wilt thou put that precious blood of his to thy mouth which in a rage hast spilt so much Christian blood Depart rather and heape not one sinne on an other neither refuse this bond which the Lord of all doeth ratifie in heauen It is not much and it will restoare thee the health of thy soule This strake the Christian Prince to the heart and turning about hee went home with teares and all the tyme that hee was kept out of the Church as a man in mourning hee woulde not put on his Imperiall robes but that Ambrose commaunded him to put off his kingly robes and to leaue his Imperiall throne in the Chauncel this is your venemous admixtion the storie sayth no such thing You falsely father it on S. Ambrose to make men beleeue that the Bishoppe might as well haue taken the princes scepter and sworde from
him as his robes and his throne Phi. Did not S. Ambrose send him woorde that he should goe out of the Chauncell and stande among the people Theo. After his reconciliation when they approched to the diuine mysteries the Prince came within the barres which were prouided for those that shoulde helpe the Bishop to minister the Lordes supper as his manner was at Constantinople to whom the Bishoppe sent word being himselfe at the Lords table that those Rayles were prepared for the Priestes and that it was not lawfull for any man else to come within them And so Sozomene confesseth The Emperours sayth he were wont for an excellencie aboue the people to sit in the same place where the Priestes were Ambrose seeing this to fauour of flatterie assigned the Emperours a place in the Church next to the Chauncel before the people but after the Priestes This order Theodosius and other Princes that succeeded him greatly praysed and we see it obserued from that day to this So that Saint Ambrose neither ment to take their seates from them within the Church nor their robes without the Church but thought it reason that the Princes precepts should not trouble the Priestes in the seruice of God And therefore take flatterie and heresie to your selues againe we like and commend both the pietie of the Prince and the grauitie of the Bishop but your malitious deprauing of the storie and mischieuous abusing the zeale of S. Ambrose to warrant rebellions insurrections against Princes whiles they repent them of their sinnes wee doe not like the more honourable his act that sought to saue the Princes soule with the hazard of his owne life the more detestable is yours that fish for Princes Crownes vnder a shewe of penance as if earthly kings might not bewaile their sinnes and keepe their seales which you are loth they should If Anastasius had beene excommunicated by Simachus it hurteth not vs deposed he was not by him or any other and with an hereticall Prince neither Simachus neither any other christian Bishop might communicate yet euen thē was the East Church subiect to a Prince that fauoured Eutiches heresie and Italie to a follower of Arius and the contention which of the two shoulde bee Bishop of Rome Symmachus or Laurentius was referred to the iudgement of king Theodoricus an Arian heretike but that Symmachus did excōmunicate Anastasius I find it in no authentike writer Euagrius sayth that some condēned Anastasius as an aduersarie to the Councell of Chalcedon and reckened him out of the number of christian Emperours Yea they of Hierusalem accursed or excommunicated him Nicephorus rehearsing the wordes of Euagrius addeth that they of Hierusalem excommunicated Anastasius yet liuing which was more than Euagrius said Sabellicus and Platina your very friends say this Emperour was excommunicated by Gelasius the second bishop before Symmachus Martinus Polonus and Iohannes Marius affirme it was done by Anastasius the next before Symmachus you say Symmachus did it which of these reports is the truest can you tell A witnes is not trusted if he be taken with two tales we finde you in three and that touching matters done a thousand yeeres before your time the wiser elder Historiographers whence you should fetch it as Regino Sigibertus Vrspergensis Frisingensis Marianus Scotus and others affirming no such thing the later and most partiall faintly comming in with sunt qui scribunt vt tradunt quidam there bee that write so as some say shal we beleeue you Your Canon Lawe the very hart and life of al your recordes at Rome hath a very miraculous letter of the Pope Gelasius to this Anastasius where Gelasius telleth the Emperour howe Zacharie Bishoppe of Rome deposed the king of Fraunce and put Pipine the father of Charles the Emperour in his place and discharged all the Frenchmen from their othe and allegeance Whereas Zacharie was Bishoppe of Rome two hundreth and fourtie yeeres after Gelasius was dead and Charles beganne not his Empire till eight hundreth after Christ Gelasius dying within fiue hundreth Thus Hilderike king of Fraunce was deposed two hundreth yeres before hee was borne and Gelasius wrate newes of Charles three hundreth yeeres after Gelasius was deade and buried By such deuises you may soone depose Princes if not by mutinies yet at least by prophesies Phi. The gloze warneth you that some take these to bee Gratians and not Gelasius words Theo. But Gratian himselfe warned you before that they were Gelasius wordes to Anastasius the Emperour for so he prefixeth the title Vnde Gelasius Papa Anastasio Imperatori In which sense Pope Gelasius wrate thus to the Emperour Anastasius Then followe these woordes summed in red letters before as his manner of alleaging is throughout the whole bodie of your Canon Law And therfore vnlesse you will say the collectour of your Decrees Decretals wrate the title waking and the text sleeping you can not choose but see what morter hath been vsed at Rome to plaister your holy fathers rotten right to depose Princes Lotharius and Michael Emperours you say were excōmunicated by Nicholas the first If we should aske you how you prooue it perhaps it woulde trouble you more than you think Late writers in this case we trust not auncient wee finde none that report any such thing of Michael Platina saith that Nicholas the first entertained the Embassadours of this Michael with great curtesie sent them home with presents to their master Zonaras a Grecian confesseth that the legates of the Bishop of Rome in a Councell assembled at Constantinople deposed Ignatius and confirmed Photius And though you haue shuffled into your Decretals a flaunting Epistle vnder the name of Nicholas the first to this Michael to frustrate the iudgement of those corrupt Legates and to reproue the Prince for his ouer-lustie letters yet knowe you that no good storie maketh mention of any such strife betweene them and that in the letter it selfe notwithstanding it be a perfect image of your shyfting and forging to make the Popes pride somewhat auncient yet is there no word nor signe of excommunication denounced or threatned against Michael Lotharius you grossely mistake it was not the Emperour whom Nicholas the first offered to excommunicate but a king of Lorraine named Lotharius and brother to Lodouike the second that held the Empire both during the life of Nicholas the first after his death Neither did the Pope excommunicate that king as you auouche but hee willed the king to beware lest he fell within the compas of that sentence which was giuen against his harlot and lest him selfe were forced to publish that his wilfulnes to the Church and so the King should become as an Ethnike and Publicane to all Christians And that the deed was not done you may perceiue by Pope Adrians behauiour speach to Lotharius and the rest when he ministred the Lords Supper
to them at their cōming to Rome yet the attempt was so strange that Otho Frisingensis saith See the kingdome decreasing and the Church aspiring to that authoritie that she will iudge kings The famous and as you say maiesticall excommunication of Arcadius and Eudoxia by Innocentius well neere 1200. yeres agoe is a ridiculous and peeuish corruption deuised by some practiser at Rome and embraced ouer greedily by Nicephorus and other later Grecians in fauour of Chrysostome Which insolent fansie wide from the matter we striue for and full of forgerie because it is refuted before I may well ouerskippe If it were true as it is apparently false it remoueth Princes from the Sacraments but not from their Scepters Thus of seuen examples pretended that Princes were excōmunicated in the auncient times of the Church only one is duely proued and no mo within 860. yeres after Christ that not by the Bishop of Rome but by S. Ambrose Bishop of Millan The rest are either enforced against the stories of the Church or boldly presumed by you besides the stories And yet were they all prooued and confessed they make nothing for your purpose The question is not whether bishops shall receiue kinges with open and obstinate vices to the Lordes table but whether they may chase them from their kingdomes or no. We mislike not repentance in Princes but resistance in subiects bind their sinnes as fast as you can but pul them not downe from their Seates And yet least you should thinke that Princes then had no faultes or that learned and godly Bishops did in those dayes forbeare to excommunicate Princes rather for feare or flatterie than for any Religion or duetie marke what care S. Augustine will haue obserued howe and when discipline shoulde bee vsed If contagion of sinne haue inuaded a multitude the mercifull seueritie of correction from God himselfe is necessarie nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniciosa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigant animosos malos For then the attempt to excommunicate is frustrate and pernicious yea sacrilegious because it becommeth both impious and arrogant and more troubleth the good that be weake than correcteth the euill that be carelesse Neither was this the iudgement of S. Augustine alone but the generall wisedome of Christes church as himselfe professeth when he entereth into this question In hac velut angustia quaestionis non aliquid nouum aut insolitum dicam sed quod sanitas obseruat ecclesiae vt cum quisque fratrum id est Christianorum intus in ecclesiae societate constitutorum in aliquo tali peccato fuerit deprehensus vt anathemate dignus habeatur fiat hoc vbi periculum schismatis nullum est atque id cum ea dilectione de qua ipse alibi praecepit dicens vt inimicum non eum existimetis sed corripite vt fratrew Non enim estis ad eradicandum sed ad corrigendum In the straitnes of this question I will say nothing that is newe or vnwonted but that which the soundnes of the church obserueth that when any of our brethren I meane Christians within the Church is deprehended in any such fault that hee deserueth excommunication let that be done where there is no daunger of any schisme and with such loue as the Apostle commanded saying Esteeme him not as an enemie but rebuke him as a brother For you are not to roote vp but to amend And to this ende S. Augustine largely disputeth throughout that chapter shewing that excommunication is not to be vsed where a schisme is iustly feared It can not bee an healthful reproouing by many but when hee that is reproued hath no number to take his part But if the same disease hath possessed many the good haue nothing left for them to do but to sorrowe and mourne And therefore the same Apostle finding many defiled with fornication and vncleannes in his seconde epistle to the same Corinthians doeth not commaund them not to eate meate with such Hee that calleth excommunication a proude pernicious and sacrilegious attempt where any number is linked together that a schisme may follow what would he haue sayd to you that excommunicate Princes and whole Realmes whence not onely daungerous schismes but also cruell persecutions easily may commonly doe arise Againe the ende of excommunication which Saint Paul toucheth and the meane which he prescribeth do cease in Princes If any man obey not our sayings haue no cōpanie with him that hee may be ashamed Now the princes companie the subiects may not flie both in respect of the necessitie that al men haue to deale with the magistrate duetie that must be yeelded to the Princes person and preceptes And how should the people make their Prince ashamed whom by Gods Law they must honour and obey in all thinges and by whom they must iustly bee punished if they offer default in any thing And this the church of God wisely considering neuer vrged any Subiectes to dishonour their Princes neither did Sainct Ambrose separate Theodosius from the companie of men but hee charged him in Gods name to refraine the church and Sacramentes vntill hee appeased the wrath of God by repentaunce Hee charged not the people to disgrace or shunne their Prince but he burdened the Princes owne conscience knowing full well his religious disposition and offering his life into the Princes handes if he misliked the fact Your selues prouide for this mischiefe but as your maner is by wicked craftie dissembling not by christian and sober forbearing the thing which you should not aduenture The Pope who is farre enough off and free from al hazardes hee must first pronounce the sentence you will stande by and watch your time when you may safely without losse of life or goods put his sentence in execution till that pinch come you may sweare and stare you bee louing and obedient Subiects but then in any case you must shew your selues or else you be accursed for euer Toledo teacheth you that if there be danger of life or goods you may finely iuggle with excommunicate Princes and serue thē and honour them with al circumstances till you be strong enough to take their Crownes from their heades in spite of their heartes and then you must spare them no longer and so much the dispensation which Campion and Parsons obtayned of his holinesse when they came into this Realme importeth Phi. Woulde you that men shoulde communicate with hereticall Princes Theo. Condemne their errours but praie for their persons for so the Apostle willeth you I exhort you therefore that first of all supplications prayers and intercessions bee made for kinges and for al that are in authoritie when kinges were Infidels and Idolaters So God commaunded his people whē they were caried to Babylon Seek the prosperitie of the citie whether I haue caused you to bee caried awaie
captiues and pray to the Lord for it for in the peace thereof shall you haue peace Which Tertullian witnesseth the christians did in all their publike assemblies Wee call vpon the euerlasting God for the health of our Emperours alwaies beseeching God to sende euerie of them long life happie raigne trustie seruantes valiant souldiers faithfull counsellours orderly subiectes and the worlde quiet and what soeuer people or Prince can wish for Examine your selues how farre you be from the innocencie and integritie of Christes church They wished all happinesse to heathen Princes and praied for the securitie of their liues and prosperitie of their states You curse and ban christian Princes and lay plots not onely for enimies to inuade them but for subiectes to shake off the yoke and shorten the daies of their naturall and lawfull Princes Phi. The church of Christ praied for her Princes if they were Pagans but not if they were heretikes Theo. What was Constantius a Pagan or an heretike Phi. An Arian Theo. For him the church praied Phi. For his conuersion Theo. For his health raigne and welfare Phi. Heretikes perhaps like himselfe did Theo. I say Catholiks Phi. It was then at the beginning of his raigne before his impietie was notorious Theo. About you fetch and all will not serue This testimonie that the church praied for Constantius though an heretike was giuen by a Councell of catholike Bishoppes in the 21. yeare of his raigne not long before his death Phi. Where finde you that the church praied for him Theo. Reade the two letters which the West Bishops sent from Ariminum to Constantius and see whether it be not cleare In the first thus they say Wee beseech you that you cause vs not to staie from our cures but that the bishops togither with the people seruing God in peace may humblie praie for your health kingdome and safetie in which the diuine Maiestie long preserue you The conclusion of their second letter is this For this cause we beseech your clemencie the second time most religious Lord and Emperour that you command vs to depart to our churches if it so please your godlines before the sharpnes of winter come that wee may make our accustomed praiers togither with the people to the almightie God and our Lord and Sauiour Christ for your imperie as we haue alwaies purposed and now wish to continue The writings of Hilarie and Athanasius to this verie Prince confirme the same We beseech your clemencie to permit saith Hilarie that the people may haue such teachers as they like such as they thinke well of such as they choose let them solemnize the diuine mysteries and make prayers for your safetie prosperitie Athanasius by his prayers made for this prince in the open assemblie of the people cleareth himselfe from hauing intelligence with Magnentius the murtherer of his brother With what eyes could I behold that bloodie homicide or howe coulde I but cal to minde your brothers face whiles I made my praiers for your health Howe coulde I indure to thinke euill of your brother or sende letters to his enimie and not rather pray and beseech God for your welfare which verily I did A witnesse hereof is first the Lord which hath giuen you the whole Empire that was left by your Fathers There can witnesse also with me Felicissimus the captaine of Aegypt Asternis the Earle Paladius the master of your Palace and others My wordes were Let vs pray for the welfare of the most religious Emperour Constantius and presently the whole people with one voice cryed O Christ bee fauorable to Constantius and this crie they continued a long time And appealing to the Emperours owne conscience knowledge You haue good triall that all the christians make their prayers and supplications to God that you may liue in safetie and continuallie raigne in peace And God graunt you O most gracious Prince to liue many yeares Heare you deaffe of yeares and dul of hartes the church of Christ praied for hereticall Princes in the middest of their impietie and tyrannie And when it was but obiected to Athanasius that hee and others wrote letters to one that rebelled and tooke armes against the Prince hee made answere Vincat quaeso apud the veritas ne relinquas suspicionem contra vniuer sam Ecclesiam quasi talia aut cogitentur aut scribantur à christianis potissimum Episcopis I beseech you let truth take place with you and leaue not this suspition vpon the catholike church as though any such things were written or thought on by Christians and especially by Bishoppes Howe farre then were these men from your humours which professe to depose Princes and not onlie licence Subiectes to rebell but incite them to kill their Soueraignes as you did lately Parry with pardon praise and recompence both here and in heauen Phi. They might do this in the beginning of his raigne before hee discouered his heresie Theo. These bee senslesse shiftes Hilarius wrote his booke after the Councell kept at Millan by Constantius and Athanasius his after Liberius was banished For those pointes be mentioned in their writinges and fell out the one immediatly before the other after the Councel of Ariminum And therefore the rathest of these defences came seuenteene yeares after the beginning of Constantius raigne and in the hoatest of his tyrannicall and hereticall persecution as the bookes themselues declare And yet they not onely indured but also obeyed him as their liege Lord and detested all resistance in deede and thought as vnlawfull for Christians and chiefly for Bishops Phi. But when in processe of time some Princes through Gods iust iudgement the peoples sinne were fallen to such contempt of religion as it lightly happeneth by heresie and Apostasie that excommunication being onely but a spirituall penaltie or other ordinarie Ecclesiasticall discipline would not serue then as well Bishops as other godlie persons their owne Subiectes did craue aide and armes of other Princes for their chastisement as most holie and auncient Popes euen in the olde dayes when the Protestants confesse them to haue beene godlie Bishoppes did incite catholike kinges to the same that those whom the spirituall rodde coulde not fruitfullie chastise they might by externe or temporall force bring them to order and repentaunce or at least defende their innocent Catholike Subiectes from vniust vexation Theo. You begin nowe to shewe your selues in your right kinde From the church you leape to the fielde meaning belike as Iulius the seconde did that since Peters keyes wil not pleasure you Paules sworde shall better steede you The side of your booke seemeth to direct vs when and vppon what occasion spirituall Pastours beganne to vse the temporall sword but the text it selfe runneth quite awrie Wee finde there neither time prefixed nor spirituall Pastour named that euer vsed the temporall sworde Are rebellions such trifles with you that you thinke to proue them with
to come from God and not from man If you saie that Abia sought not for the kingdome but for Religion though his owne wordes sound to the contrarie knowe you that as Ieroboam was starke naught so Abia for all his crakes and your praises was little better The holie Ghost whose report wee must beleeue before yours saieth that hee walked in all the sinnes of his Father which hee had doone before him and that his heart was not right with the Lorde his God And the sinnes of his Father are thus described in the Scripture Iudah wrought wickednesse in the sight of the Lorde and they prouoked him more with their sinnes which they committed than all that which their Fathers had doone For they also made them high places and images and groues on euerie high hill and vnder euerie greene tree There were also Sodomites in the Land that did according to all the abominations of the people which the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel This was in the time of Roboam Abia walked in al his waies and therefore lacked not much of Ieroboans wickednesse though you make him a victorious religious conquerour That Edom and Libuah reuolted from king Ioram is verie true but that their reuolt was either lawfull or for religion that you proue not Edom had no such respect they were prophane persons and Infidels and as soone as they sawe their time they cast off the yoke which the kinges of Iudah had laide vpon them But not long after in the raigne of Amaziah they were meetely wel plagued by the king of Iudah for their reuolting he smiting tenne thowsand of them with the sworde and taking other tenne thowsand aliue and casting them down from the top of a rocke that they burst al to peeces thereby to giue them a iust recompence for their former rebellion The Scripture saith that Libuah a citie of the Priests as appeareth by the first allotment made in the 21. of the booke of Ioshua rebelled at the same time but it commendeth their rebellion no more than it doeth the rebellion of Edom. It will be as hard for you to proue either of them did well as that your selues may do the like Leude deedes are reported in the Scripture as will as good but not commended No more are these Phi. The text saith they did it because the king of Iudah had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers Theo. The Scripture doth not set down the cause why they might lawfully doe it but addeth this as a reason why God suffered these troubles to fall on king Ioram As if it should haue said no maruell to see these rebell against him for he had forsaken the God of his fathers And if this were a fault in king Ioram to forsake the God of his fathers as in truth it was how can the priests of Libuah be excused for seuering themselues from the line of Dauid without warrant from God that which was worse from the temple seruice of God established by expresse commandement at Ierusalem If that be true which you say that Libuah could neuer be recouered again to the kingdom of Iudah your selfe conuince them of a pestileÌ„t wicked reuolt For though they might pretend religion against king Ioram yet against the godly kings of Iudah which followed as Ezechiaâ— Iosias others they could pretend none therfore by your own confession it was no defection from Iorams idolatrie but a plaine rebellion against the kingdom of Iudah an vtter renouncing the Altar Temple seruice of God at IerusaleÌ„ Which how it might stand with their duties to God his law we yet conceiue not neither wil you euer be able to iustifie that fact of theirs with all your cunning and eloquence The ten tribes assembled to sight with Ruben Gad for building an Altar by Iordan against the commandement of God and therein they did but their duties If you aske by what authority they did it the answere is easie Their commonwealth coÌ„sisting of 12. tribes al indued with like soueraignty ten might lawfully represse two without any farther warraÌ„t as after they did the Beniamits for that filthy fact of the men of Gibeah But yet at this time Ioshua liued whom God himselfe had appointed captaine ruler of the 12. tribes therfore besides that authority which the whole had ouer a part that in common regimeÌ„t is sufficeÌ„t there was a superior magistrate at the denouÌ„cing of these wars and though they had fought togither as equals yet will not that example ratiâ—ie the rebelling of subiectes against their Princes which is your purpose Phi. Since Christs law religion was establâ—shed diuerse great honorable fights haue bin made for the faith against princes and prouinces that vniustly withstood and annoied the same Theo. What warres haue bin for religion since the comming of Christ if you meane between Prince Prince Realme Realme is bootles for you to seeke needlesse for vs to answere We dispute not what causes may iustly be pursued with battel but what what persons are permitted to take the sword against whom And vnto the time of Gregory the 1. which compasse you take to bring vs some presidents of your doings you can not shew that euer christian subiects did beare armes against their Princes for any quarrell of regilion were allowed Rebellions were rife in those ages as well as now but we deny that the Church of Christ or the godly Bishops of those times did euer consent allow or like those tumults much lesse procure them or vse them for the safegard of their Sees as you beare men in hand they did Phi. In old times of the primatiue church the christian Armenians lawfully defended themselues by armes against their Emperor Maximinus Theo. You that feare not to depraue the scriptures wil make no bones to corrupt vitiate other Stories at your pleasures The Armenians being no subiects but confederats wheÌ„ Maximinus would haue compelled them to worship idols to that ende offered them force resisted as they lawfully might of fellowes friends became straÌ„gers aduersaries The words of Eusebius are very plaine for that purpose Maximinus had also warre with the Armenians who of long time before that had bin friendes confederates with the Romanes That people being christians very deuoute this hatefull tyrant attempting to force to the sacrifices of idols diuels made them of friends foes of collegues enimies Phi. The Catholike people of diuers Prouinces haue often by force defended and kept their Bishoppes in their seates against the Infidels but specially against the commaundements of heretical Emperors yea and resisted them in defence of their Churches and the sacred goods of the same As the Citizens of Antioche defended their Church against the Emperour Galerius his officers Theo. Your generall and voluntarie
reportes wee may hardly trust since your speciall instaunces be so corrupted and wrested And could you shewe that which you speake of as you can not you must also proue it well done or at leâ—t to haue beene liked and allowed of the Church of Christ before we can receiue it The Apostles rule is strong against it You must bee subiect not onely for wrath but for conscience sake Many thousand Martyrs Bishoppes others submitted themselues and endured the vilest torments that coulde bee deuised against them as the ten persecutions of Christes Church vnder heathen Princes most clearly witnesse that euer any of their subiects rebelled against those bloody persecutors in respect of religion must be your care to shewe Wee reading all the monumentes of those tymes verily find none and by your silence it should appeare your selues know none otherwise we do not thinke you woulde disfurnish your cause and trouble the reader with impertinent matters That the Citizens of Antioch defended their Church with armes against the Emperour Galerius his officers I find it writteÌ„ in no good Author neither do you quote the place that Storie you may put in your Legende as taken thence by most likelyhood The temples of their bodies which were farre more precious they did not defend from the furious and insatiable rage of Diocletian Maximinus but as well at Antioche as in all other places subiect to the Romane Empire the christian men women mildly gladly suffered those torments deaths and shames which in our eyes neither flesh could beare nor nature brooke so that wee haue cause rather to maruaile at their patience than to mistrust their disobedience Phi. S. Basil and S. Ambrose people defended them against the inuasions of Heretikes Theo. After Valens the Emperour had twise decreed to banish S. Basil and was the first tyme stopped of his course by the suddaine sicknes of his sonne and terror of his wife and the second time by a straunge trembling of hande and heart as he was subscribing the sentence of deportation against him hee neuer after offered to meddle with Saint Basill but suffered him quietly to enioy his Bishopricke Yet fell there out after this a contention betweene the Lieutenaunt of Pontus and Saint Basill about the liberties of the sanctuarie for a Noble woman that had taken the Church for her refuge to saue her selfe from one that woulde haue forced her to mariage against her will The Deputie required the woman to bee deliuered the Bishoppe replied that hee might not violate the Lawes of GOD and man The Deputie stomacking Saint Basill and the more for his stout defence otherwise of the Christian faith sent for the Bishoppe to his Tribunall and commaunding him to bee stript threatned to whippe him and to teare his flesh with Iron hookes This indignitie the people could no longer abide but seeing their Pastor thus shamefully handled without the Emperours commandemeÌ„t or knowledge vpon the priuate displeasure of a Deputie for the liberties of the Church established by the Romane Lawes the whole citie men and women fell to an vprore and were like enough to haue done the Deputie some mischiefe but that Saint Basil with much adoe repressing the people deliuered his persecutor from that perill This is the true report of Saint Basils case euen out of the same author which you auouche Gregorie Nazianzene Their griefe you see was not against the Emperours power or fact but against the malice of a Lieutenant presuming vpon a priuate grudge without any warrant from the Prince not onely to doe that which the Emperour in his owne person had refrained but in most spitefull and seruile manner to abuse their Bishop against all order of Lawe And this tumult S. Basil neither procured nor praised but asswaged with his presence and offered himselfe to the Deputies pleasure Of S. Ambrose wee spake before by occasion and thither we send you It is most vntrue that the people of Millan either did or might take armes against the Emperour though hee were then but a child and therefore might make no Lawes for Religion or otherwise without Theodosius ioynt Emperour with him in possession of the scepter before him Which exception neither S. Ambrose nor other godly bishops vsed against him but submitted themselues with al meekenes when in reason they might haue taken this aduantage Of the people S. Ambrose himselfe giueth this testimonie In singulis vobis Iob reuixit in singulis sancti illius patientia virtus refulsit Quid enim praesentis dici potuit a viris Christianis quà m quod â—odie in vobis locutus est Spiritus sanctus Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus non timemus sed rogamus Hoc Christianos decet In euery one of you Iob is aliue againe in eche of you his patience and vertue shined What coulde bee sayde fitter by Christian men than that which the holy Ghost this day spake in you We beseech O Emperour we offer not armes Wee feare not to die but we intreate thy clemencie This beseemeth Christians to desire tranquillitie of peace faith but to bee constant in the truth euen vnto death And for his part when hee heard that his Church was taken vp by the Emperours souldiers he fet only somewhat the deeper sighes sayd to such as exhorted him to goe thither deliuer vp my Church I may not but sight I ought not Phi. But the people were in a commotion which appeareth by that S. Ambrose answered when they willed him to asswage their furie It lay in him not to incite them but hee had no meanes to represse them Theo. Truth it is that the people flocked to their Churches and chose rather to bee slaine in the place than to leaue them vnto Arians But that they offered armes or attempted any force either for S. Ambrose or against Valentinian is a manifest vntrueth The merchaunts were amerced and emprisoned the Nobles were hardly threatned and S. Ambrose himselfe charged as with a sedition and yet all the violence that was offered was this The people passing from one Church to an other met a Chapleine of the Arrians and some vnruly persons as in such heates it can not otherwise be chosen beganne to illude and abuse the man but the Bishop presently sent his Priestes and Deacons and rescued him from that iniurie which yet the Emperour tooke so grieuously that hee layd a number of them in Irons and imposed a great mulet vpon the whole Citie to bee paide within three dayes Farther force was none offered by the people of Millan and yet of that small disorder Saint Ambrose saith If they thought him to bee the inciter or stirrer of the people they should straightway reuenge it on him or banish him into what wildernesse they would And to that end he departed home to bed to his owne house that if any man woulde haue him into exile
he should find him readie Had you beene there you would not onely haue set the people against the Prince but encouraged the subiect to pul the yong boy by the eares and to teach him better manner against an other time to meddle with Bishoppes and it grieueth you to see Ambrose so faint hearted as you take it that when so fit opportunitie serued him and the rest they would giue no president to rebel against Princes which is the thing you seeke to proue and long to doe Phi. Not the people only which may doe things of headynes without counsel or consultation but the bishops of Countries so persecuted by heretical Princes haue iustly required helpe of other Christian kings Theo. If the multitude of Christians in the primatiue Church for all their rashnes and headynes were afraid in respect of the Apostles doctrine to rebell against Powers whom shall you perswade that their religious and godly Pastours were firebrands of sedition If they taught others to obey with what conscience could they themselues resist Or rather with what face do you slaunder them with that they neuer did Phi. Holy Athanasius who knewe his duetie to his soueraigne wel enough in what case he might resist him asked ayde against Constantius the Arrian the first heretical Emperour whom Pope Felix declared to be an heretike of his owne brother Constance Catholike Emperour of the West For feare of whose armes the said Arrian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishops to their Churches and honours againe though after this Catholike Emperours death the other more furiously persecuted Athanasius than before Theo. Hee that neuer sounded the fidelitie and honestie of Iesuites afore this time may take hence his light howe to trust them in other cases Did Athanasius aske ayde of armes against Constantius the Arrian Phi. For feare of armes the saide Arrian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishoppes to their Churches and honours againe Theo. But did Athanasius moue Constans so to doe Phi. Hee asked ayde of Constans against his brother Constantius Theo. But did hee aske that ayde to bee restored by armes For of that ayde we now dispute that aide must you meane if you wil say ought to the purpose Phi. He accepted it and therfore it is likely he requested it Theo. You would proue by this example that Athanasius who knew his dutie to his soueraigne well enough and in what case he might resist him not only vsed but asked forciâ—le ayde against Constantius of his owne brother Phi. So he did Theo. Be you well in your wittes to auouch it with such confidence Phi. Why should wee not Theo. Why should you not Athanasius himselfe when that very point was obiected to him not only abiured it as false but detested it vnto Constantius as a wicked and vngodly part for himselfe to haue stirred brother against brother What extreme boldnes was it then for you to fasten that on him which hee defieth and forsweareth Phi. Where doth he so Theo. Where you might soone haue found it but that you thought to haue brought the matter froÌ„ words to blowes before this tyme. It was layd in his dish by Constantius amongst other things after the death of Constans that he prouoked and incited his brother against him and that hee resisted the Princes precepts To this Athanasius answereth in his Apologie to Constantius I am not mad I am not besides my selfe O Emperour that thou shouldest suspect I had euer any such thought And that made mee say nothing to it when others questioned with me about it lest whiles I laboured to cleare my selfe some perhaps would make a doubt of it But to your highnesse I answere with a loude and plaine voyce and with my hand held out as I learned of the Apostle I cal God to witnes against my soule as it is written in the book of kings I sweare the Lord can beare me record and his annointed your brother suffer me I beseech you so to say I neuer made mention of you for any euill before your brother of blessed memorie I meane that religions Emperour Constans neither did I euer stirre him vp against you as these Arrians do slaunder me but contrariwise whensoeuer I had accesse vnto him he himselfe recounted your gratious inclination and God knoweth what mention I made of your godly disposition Suffer me and pardon me most curteous Prince That seruant of God Constans your brother was not so open nor so lent his eares to any man neither was I in such credite with him that I durst speake a woorde of any such matter or derogate from one brother before an other or finde fault with a Prince in the hearing of a Prince I am not so mad neither haue I forgotten the voyce of God which sayth Curse not the king in thine heart nor backbite the mightie in the secretes of thy chamber For the birdes of the aire shall tell it and the fowles which flie shall betraie thee If the thinges which be spoken in secrete touching you Princes can not bee hid what likelyhoode that I in the presence of a Prince and so many standing by would say any thing of you otherwise than well And shewing how ofteÌ„ he spake with the Emperor CoÌ„stans in whose preseÌ„ce to what effect which were to loÌ„g to repeat he concludeth I beseech your highnes for I know well the force of your memorie call to mind my behauiour when it pleased you to admit me to your presence first at Vimimachum then at Caesarea and thirdly at Antioch whether I did so much as offer an euil word of Eusebius my bitter enimie or gaue a displeasaunt speach of any my pursuers If then I refrained my tongue when I was to plead against them in mine own defence what madnes had that beene for me to traduce an Emperor before an Emperour and to stirre vp one brother against an other What thinke you Doth not Athanasius reiect that which you would father on him as a manifest vntrueth nay as a villanous and frantike attempt to set brethren together by the eares and to stirre warres betweene Princes Why then doe you burthen a godly Bishop with that which he neuer thought and which he was farthest from Why make you Athanasius your rest for rebellion against Princes whereas hee thought it vnlawfull in hart to curse a cruel hereticall Prince How farre he did said he was bound to obay Constantius his owne wordes wil testifie and therefore no reason we beleeue your vaunting and facing that he procured warre against Constantius when he himselfe affirmeth the contrarie They lay to my charge saith he to the same Prince that I obayed not your precepts by the which it was enioyned me that I should depart from Alexandria I neuer resisted the commandements of your highnesse no no God forbid I should I am not he that will withstand the Gouernour of any Citie
it were done by forsaking threatning compelling or inuading him the Storie doeth not expresse neither may you suppose what you list without any proofe Had they assaulted him with armes it had beene as easie to haue slaine him there as to haue driuen him thence but no doubt Peter their Bishoppe kept them from that which Moses a conuert of the Saracenes not long before bitterly reprooued in Lucius Phi. You meane Moses the Moncke that Mauia the Queene of the Saracens required to haue for the Bishopppe of her Nation whose fayth the Bishoppe of Rome confirmed in the same letters with Peters election Theo. I doe Phil. What of him Theo. When hee was brought to Lucius to bee made Bishoppe hee sayde I thinke my selfe vnworthie of this function but if it bee profitable for my Countrie that I take it Lucius shall neuer lay handes on mee to make mee Bishoppe for his right hand is embrued with blood Lucius answering that he should not raile but first learne what religion he taught I aske not a reason sayth Moses of thy religion thy doings against thy brethren conuince what religion thou hast A christian doeth not strike doeth not slaunder doeth not fight The seruant of God may not fight But thy woorkes openly shewe themselues by those whome thou hast banished whom thou hast cast to bee deuoured of beasts and consumed with fire If Moses thus abhorred Lucius for fighting and striking what would hee haue sayd to Peter for bearing armes and rebelling if he had beene so good a warrier as you make him Phi. So did Atticus Bishop of Constantinople craue ayde of Theodosius the yonger against the king of the Persians that persecuted his Catholike subiects and was thereby forcibly depriued and his innocent subiects deliuered Theo. The christians of Persia being barbarously persecuted by Bararanes an Infidel and put as Theodorete sheweth to straunge and vnusuall torments fled their Countrie and sauing themselues within the Romane Dominion besought the Christian Emperour they might bee harboured within his land and not bee yeelded vnto the furie of their king The Persian presently sent Legates to haue them backe that were departed his Realme Atticus the Bishoppe of Constantinople opened their cause to the Emperour and laboured what he could for them Theodosius the Emperour woulde not deliuer them as being suppliants to him and no offendours against their king but only that they professed the Christian Religion and hauing besides iust cause to make warre vpon the Persians for that they spoiled his merchants and woulde not restore his Goldminers which they hired of him bid open battell to them and caused the king to be glad with peace and to cease his persecution against the Christians Here is nothing for your purpose vnlesse you say that subiects may rebel for Religion because straungers may bee harboured for religion which were a mad kind of conclusion The Persians asked not armes against their King though a Tyrant but refuge for themselues neither did they assault their Prince on the one side when the Romanes inuaded on the other but with praier expected what end God would giue Atticus was no subiect to the king of Persia and therefore whatsoeuer hee did against a straunger and an enemie is no president for subiects to do the like to their Princes and yet all that he did was this Atticus Episcopus supplicantes cupidé suscepit totus in eo erat vt pro viribus ipsis succurreret Imperatori Theodosio quae gererentur significauit Atticus the Bishoppe embraced their request for themselues with great good will and laboured what hee could to helpe them and signified their state to Theodosius the Emperour Theodosius was a lawfull magistrate and had other and those iust causes to warre vpon the Persian and in that hee refused to deliuer the profugient and innocent Christians to the slaughter hee had the Lawe of nature and nations for his defence And lastly the king of Persia was neither depriued of his kingdome as you falsely report nor his subiects discharged frō their obedience but a peace concluded wherin the King was contended to cease from pursuing the Christians All this you shall find not in the second booke as you quote but in the seuenth where Socrates describeth the occasion and conclusion of this Persian warre From him Nicephorus taketh his light and more than Socrates said before he neither doth nor could affirme Phi. So did holy Pope Leo the first perswade the Emperour called Leo also to take armes against the Tyraunt of Alexandria for the deliuerie of the oppressed Catholiques from him and the heretiques Eutichians who then threw downe Churches and Monasteries and did other great sacrileges Whose wordes for examples sake I will set downe O Emperour saith Sainct Leo if it be laudable for thee to inuade the heathens how much more glorious shall it bee to deliuer the Church of Alexandria from the heauie yoke of outragious heretiques by the calamitie of which Church all the Christians in the world are iniuried Theo. Leo was so holy that hee neuer taught any man to beare armes against his Prince and yet it did nothing hurt his holynes to pray the Emperour to pursue with due punishment the wicked vprore that was made in Alexandria by Timotheus an heretike that placing himselfe in the Bishoprike and killing Proterius the true Bishoppe at the font in the Church caused the carkas by some of his faction to bee drawen along the streetes in a rope and to bee so cutte and mangled that the very intrayles drayled vpon the stones and the rest of the bodie to bee burnt and the ashes scattered into the ayre That villanous and diuelish fact Leo the Bishoppe of Rome beseecheth Leo the Emperour with all seueritie to reuenge assuring him that it is as glorious a conquest before Christ to punish such outragious heretikes as to represse miscreantes and Infidels But howe this shoulde serue your turnes wee can not imagine Will you reason thus Leo the Bishoppe of Rome perswaded the Emperour to chastise some of his subiects that were heretikes and murderers Ergo the people may assault their Prince with armes Take heede left Timotheus heresie and furie reuiue in you again if you fal to liking such consequents Phi. In briefe so did S. Gregorie the great moue Genadius the Exarch to make warres specially against heretikes as a very glorious thing Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of In deede Gregorie the great wrate to Genadius the Exarch in the selfe same sense that Leo before did to Leo the Emperour which is that Magistrates ought to resist and punish the aduersaries of Christes Church as well as the troublers and disturbers of the Common-wealth neither is there any difference in their writings or meanings saue that Leo wrate to the Prince himselfe and Gregorie to his Deputie And since you be come
to Gregorie it is high tyme you begin to awake and remember your selfe that for sixe hundreth yeeres you haue not nor can not shew vs any one example where heretical Prince was deposed or subiect allowed to beare armes against his Soueraigne Which is a sufficient conuiction that Pagans and heretikes were all this while honoured obeyed and endured by the Church of Christ if they were Princes Or if that collection bee not good heare Saint Augustines confession of him that was the very worst of them I meane Iulian the Apostata and learne that they which suffered and obeyed him woulde neuer resist nor rebell against any Iulianus extitit infidelis Imperator nonne extitit Apostata iniquus Idolatra Milites Christiani seruierunt Imperatori infidels Vbi veniebatur ad causam Christi non agnoscebant nisi illum qui in caelo erat Quando volebat vt idola colerent vt thurificarent praeponebant illi Deum Quando autem dicebat producite aciem ite contra illam gentem statim obtemperabant Distinguebant Dominum aeternum a Domino temporali tamen subditi erant propter Dominum aeternum etiam Domino temporali Iulian was an vnbeleeuing Emperour was hee not an Apostata an oppressour and an Idolater Christian souldiers serued that vnbeleeuing Emperor When they came to the cause of Christ they would acknowledge no Lord but him that is heauen When hee woulde haue them to worshippe Idoles and to sacrifice they preferred God before their Prince But when he said goe foorth to fight inuade such a nation they presently obeyed They distinguished their eternall Lorde from their temporall and yet were they subiect euen vnto their temporal Lorde for his sake that was their eternall Lord and master The like testimonie your Law bringeth out of S. Ambrose Iulian the Emperour though hee were an Idolater had yet vnder him Christian souldiers to whom when hee sayd goe fight for the defence of the common-wealth they did obey him but when hee sayde goe fight against the Christians then they regarded the Emperour in heauen before him Phi. The holy Bishoppes might most lawfully and so sometymes they did excommunicate the Arrian Emperours and haue warranted their Catholike subiects to defend themselues by armes against them But they alwayes did not so because they had no meanes by reason of the greater forces of the persecutours As there no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene by the Bishoppes excommunicated and deposed and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. Uayne shiftes you haue brought vs many but none vayner than that which here you broche You vndertooke to shewe vs auncient examples that Princes were iudicially deposed by Priestes and impugned with armes by their owne subiectes You bee nowe come to the vttermost pitch of Antiquitie and finding your selfe not able to bee as good as your worde you tell vs that though Bishoppes did it not yet they might most lawfully haue warranted their Catholike subiectes to defend themselues by armes against the Arrian Emperours But sir you were to bring vs their examples what they did not your vants what they might haue done The point we began with was what Bishops in this case might doe You to shew what they might doe promised vs the particulars of auncient ages what they had doone and hauing perused six hundered yeeres after Christ and perceauing no such deede doone you come with a returne at the last that though they did it not yet they might haue doone it whereas we rather collect they might not doe it because they did it not For had it beene most lawful as you say we can proue it most needfull they should haue doone it The blaspheming of Christ the murdering of his saincts the seducing of many thousand soules which things were not only committed by their meanes but also maintained by their power that were suffered to beare and vse the sword for the strengthning and establishing of their error were causes sufficient to moue the Bishops to doe what they lawfully might to preuent these mischifes and saue the Bishops you cannot from the blemish of permitting and increasing the pestilent heresies of Arius and others if they did not what they might in dewtie to withstand and depose those Princes that were the chiefe Patrones of those impieties Phi. There is no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene deposed by the Bishops and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. You falsely and wickedly slaunder the Martyrs of Christs church when you auouch they wanted not will but power to resist their Princes The Christians had forces sufficient and many fit opportunities offered them to set those hereticall Emperours besides their Seates and woulde not Constans the West Emperour was of power sufficient to haue repressed Constantius his brother for feare of whom Athanasius was restored to his Bishoprike by Constantius and with whom if the Catholikes of the East would haue but ioyned themselues it had beene most easie for them to haue taken the Scepter from Constantius When Constans was slaine Magnentius the Tyrant surprised all Italie subdued Affrica and Lybia and had Fraunce in subiection and the souldiers of Illyricum erected Betranion against Constantius in which distresse if the Christians would but haue forsaken Constantius and not ventered their liues for him he must haue beene depriued of the West Empire if not of the East also Athanasius being charged that he with others secretly by letters incited this Magnentius to take armes against the Emperour answered as I shewed you before Cast not this suspition O Emperour vpon the whole Church as though such things were written or thought on by Christian men and specially by Bishopes The like occasion was offered the Christians to displace Constantius when Gallus who was both Cesar and next to the Crowne beganne to aduance himselfe to the Empire but they tooke it as you see by Athanasius wordes to be no Christian mans part to thinke on bearing armes against their Emperour though an hereticke Of the Christian souldiers vnder Iulian you hearde S. Augustine say they serued their temporall Lorde though an Idolater and an Apostata not for lacke of force to resist but for respect of their euerlasting Lorde in heauen Otherwise the Christian souldiers had Iulian in his voyage against the Persians farre from home and from helpe and might haue done with him what they woulde and yet they chose rather to spend their liues for him than to lift vp their handes against him and the Christian worlde in his absence stirred not against him but with patience endured his oppression and with silence expected his returne Phi. They were heathen souldiers that were with Iulian in the Persian warres Theo.
next foure hundreth yeeres you name vs one that was not depriued of his Empire but denyed his reuenues in Italie by the rebellion of the souldiers and Citizens of Rome Rauenna Venice other places against him Phi. The Greeke and Latine writers doe consent that this was Gregories act Zonaras sayth Gregorie which then ruled the church of olde Rome refusing the fellowship of the Bishoppe of newe Rome of all that were of his opinion wrapped them together with the Emperour in a Synodical excōmunication and stayed the tribute which til that time was paied to the Empire and made a league with the Germanes Vrspergensis sayth Gregorie the Pope of Rome prohibited any tribute to bee giuen to the Emperour out of the Citie of Rome or out of Italie Frisingensis hath the like Gregorie the Pope warning the Emperour often tymes by letters and finding him incorrigible perswaded Italie to reuolt from his Empire And so Sigebert Gregorie reprooued Leo the Emperour for his error and turned both the people of Rome and the tribute of the West partes from him Moe I coulde bring you but these are enough Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of The rebellion of the Italiās against Leo the thirde was like enough to be Pope Gregories act For the Bishops of Rome were then Malcontentes to see the Bishops of Constantinople liue in such wealth ease and honor and themselues neglected by the Greeke Emperours and afflicted dayly by the Lumbardes And therefore I thinke they were forwarde enough to kindle the people against their Prince vppon the least occasion that might fall out And that may be the meaning of those Greeke and Germane writers which you bring that the Bishop of Rome occasioned or secretly incouraged the rebellion of Italie against Leo But that he tooke vpon him in those dayes to be the deposer of Princes as now he doeth or that he openly shewed or pleaded his vniuersall and supreme power to dispose kingdomes which is the thing that you shoulde proue that I denie and therein your owne stories as well the elder as the later sort of them that otherwise be very partial will iustifie my speech Diaconus aliue in those dayes saieth Leo the Emperour tooke the images of Sainctes at Constantinople and burnt them and commaunded the Bishop of Rome if euer he looked to haue his fauour to do the like But the Bishop refused to doe it and all the souldiers of Rauenna and Venice resisted this precept with one consent and but that the Bishop of Rome prohibited them so to doe they had attempted to make an other Emperour ouer them Regino that liued 200. yeres before Sigebert Frisingēsis Vrspergensis or Zonaras saith the same Blondus a diligent searcher and reporter of antiquities where partiall affection doth not blinde him saith The Emperour dealt by faire meanes at first with the Bishop of Rome if hee woulde haue his fauour to pull downe and burne the images in all places of Italy as he had done in the East Upon this precept of the Emperour first the citizens of Reuenna then the people and souldiers of Venice brake into an open rebellion against the Emperour and his deputie the exarch and laboured to the Bishop of Rome and to other cities of Italie to abrogate the Empire of Constantinople and to chose one of Italy or Rome for their Emperour and the rebellion went so farre that reiecting Magistrates which the exarch had appointed euerie citie and euery towne beganne then first since the inclination of the Romane Empire to create and elect Magistrates of their owne which they called Dukes But Stephen the Bishop of Rome repressed that attempt of the Italians to choose a new Emperour because he hoped Leo would vppon better aduise hereafter forbeare such enormities Yet the rebellion of the people of Rome and of other persons in Italie went forwarde and euerie day increased against the Emperour Nauclerus agreeth with Blondus saue that hee maketh Gregorie the seconde then Bishoppe of Rome when Blondus nameth Stephen Platina telleth his tale this way Leo the Emperour the thirde of that name when hee coulde not haue his will at the Bishop of Rome proposed an edict that all men vnder the Romane Empire shoulde take out of their Temples the images of all the holie Martyres and Angels for auoiding of idolatrie as hee sayde and who so did not hee woulde accompt him for an open enimie Gregorie the seconde not onely obeyed not but also warned all the Catholikes so your adherentes call themselues though they be nothing lesse than Catholikes that they shoulde not fall into that errour for any feare or precept of Prince By the which exhortation the people of Italie were so animated that they lacked verie little of chosing themselues an other Emperour but Gregorie interposed himselfe to staie them by his authoritie from doing it Sabellicus adding a thirde cause why the people of Rome and Italie were sore greeued with the Emperour and with-helde their tribute and not long after diuided the Empire which was the continuall impugning of them and preuailing against them by the Lombardes without any helpe from the Graecians Leo sayth he prayed the Bishop of Rome friendly that following his example he would raze the images of Saints out of al the temples in Italie Wherin the Bishop not only would not gratifie the Prince but wrote vnto al the churches that they should continue their most ancient custome That procured Leo passing hatred amongst other Nations but chiefly among the Italiās insomuch that the people of Rome began to consult of the choise of a new Emperour within Italie and the heartes of all Italie were ioyned with them in that attempt and that consent of theirs had broken foorth into an open defection had not the Bishop of Rome enterposed his authoritie and restrained the fiercenesse of his citizens by mollifieng them and admonishing them to persist in their former duetie to the Emperour when as that cōspiracie had alreadie so preuailed that Marinus the ruler of the citie his son the president of Campania being slain by the people the Exarch likewise murdered at Rauenna the cities commons had chosen for themselues new Magistrates Aeneas Syluius euen when hee was Pope Pius the seconde speaking oft his vprore made against Leo the thirde saieth To this rebellion the Bishoppe of Rome did not consent hoping that Leo would be better aduised If the report of other Writers be not sufficient the letters of Gregory the 2. Gregory the 3. wil witnesse no lesse the one writing in the 7. yeare of Leo the other in the 23. which was the last yeare of the raigne and life of Leo the 3. where they call him not onely Emperour but most religious Lord which could not bee if for his impietie they long before had forsaken his obedience as Zonaras the Monke imagineth Gregorie the 2. endeth his letters
West Empire Phi. Might the people of Rome forsake the Grecians that bare the sworde Theo. Looke you to that You may proue them rebelles if you bee so disposed you can not proue the Bishoppe of Rome to be the deposer of Princes That which was done had the common consent was the publike Act of the Romane state when there was no disagreement in religion between them Irene but a dislike for lacke of conuenient aide in their distresses as some affirme or else a discontentment to see that furious woman vsurpe the imperial dignitie and no lawfull successour left to vindicate the same out of her hand as others seeme to saie What-soeuer the cause was that mooued the Romanes the Empire amongest the Grecians at that time went neither by succession nor election but they were fallen to cutting of throates and hee that was mightiest tooke the sworde Iustinian the yonger was depriued of the Empire and banished and his nose cutte off by Leo the seconde and Leo the seconde thrust from the throne and imprisoned by Tiberius the thirde Against them both when Iustinian had preuailed and recouered his crowne and put them to death Philippicus in open fielde slue Iustinian and gat his place but kept it not long For Arthemius the next yeare after tooke from him the Scepter and both his eyes Theodosius sawe that and hee sette Arthemius besides the stoole and with maine force of armes made him of a Prince a poore Priest and was him-selfe within one yeare serued of the same sauce by Leo the thirde This wretched tumbling for the Empire by rebellion and murder might prouoke the Romanes to giue eare to the Popes priuate whisperings and when they saw Constantine the sixt the last of Leoes line depriued both of his kingdome and eyesight by his owne mother to forsake her as well as the Grecians did after depriue her and close her in an Abbay but that I esteeme not so long as the Pope by the power of his keyes did not diuide the empire for defect in religion as you vainlie auouch Phi. Many writers witnesse with vs that the Bishop of Rome translated the Empire Theo. Wee doe not denie but the Bishop as a principall part of the citie and policie of Rome had a stroke therein and gained well thereby but that he did it by his Priestly power as Peters successour and not rather the people and the Bishop ioyning togither with their common aduise and authoritie as a politike state that you shall neuer proue Phi. What had the people to doe with translating the Empire Theo. Nay what had the Pope to do with disposing the temporall sworde The Romane state and Common-wealth had as good right to dispose the Romane Empire as all other christian heathen kingdoms and countries had to settle the sword and scepter that raigned ouer them And since all other nations once members of the Romane Empire were suffered to plant those seuerall formes of regiment which they best liked and when the right heires failed to elect their own Gouernours I see no cause why the Romanes might not prouide for themselues as well as other Realmes had done before them specially if the purportes of your Stories be true that they were neglected by the Grecians whē they were besieged by the Lombardes and the scepter at Constantinople wēt not by discent or succession but by violent and wicked inuasion and sedition but that the Bishop of Rome by his Priestly keyes or Apostolike power did or might dispose the Empire that we denie And if any of your side to flatter the Pope make report that he did it of his absolute power and iudiciall authoritie wee little esteeme such stragglers as hauing the generall consent of your best authours and chiefest pillours for the contrarie Phi. The chiefest of our side are against the most of your assertions You holde opinion that Leo the thirde was not depriued of all his temporalities within Italie by Gregorie the second and yet Platina and Nauclerus say that Gregorie put him Imperio simul communione fidelium both from his Empire from the communion of the faithful Theo. This they say of Gregorie the thirde not of Gregorie the 2. as you do but it can be true of neither Nauclerus by and by reciteth Epistle of Gregorie the thirde written the same yeare that Leo the Emperor died where he calleth him Dominū pijssimum Augustū Leonē most religious Lord Leo the Emperour Sabellicus leaueth out the word imperio as vnlikely to be true saith that Gregorie the thirde magno Cleri populique consensu piorum communione priuat put the Emperour Leo frō the communion with the consent and liking of the clergie and laitie Blondus holdeth hardly that Gregorie the third was not Bishop of Rome whiles Leo the thirde had the Empire Againe the Empire could not be translated in the time of Leo but Constantine his sonne must likewise lose the same his father taking him into the societie of the crowne the fourth yeare of his empire and writing seuen where Constantine wrote foure as appeareth by the letter of Gregorie the seconde to the Germanes and Bonifacius othe and contestation before the same Gregory Now to Constantine the sonne of Leo did the Bishop of Rome sende both letters and Legates for helpe against Aistulphus when he besieged Rome as to the right owner protectour and Emperour of that citie And therefore it must needs be false that Platina saith the tutele of the church was remoued from the Emperors of Cōstantinople to others by this Gregorie in the raign of Leo for so much as Blondus Sabellicus and Nauclerus witnesse the defence of the citie against the Lombardes was craued at Constantines handes by those whom Platina placeth after Gregorie And the chiefest reason which hee giueth of this transferring the defence of the church is most false Gregorie deriued it to others sayeth hee maximè quod vrbem regiā aegrè Leo à Saracenis tutaretur chiefly because Leo was hardlie able to defende his owne citie of Constantinople from Saracens whereas the Saracens besieged not Constantinople but the first yeare of Leo before his edict against Images came foorth and Luitprandus besieged Rome not Interim as Platina sayeth but a long time after and the Bishoppe of Rome sent first for helpe into Fraunce not when Luitprandus but when Aistulphus besieged him and then hee sent not vnto Charles as Platina woulde haue it but to Pipine the father of Charles with many such errours which conuince Platina to bee a verie indiligent and insufficient writer in this point Nauclerus contented him-selfe with the wordes of Platina searched no farther which Sabellicus perceiued to bee so repugnaunt to the course of other Stories that hee sayeth Neque tempora legentibus neque rerum ordo constare liquid◠potest It is hard for the reader to distinguish either the times
him hee woulde lacke a great deale of that praise which you and other such Pharisaicall Friers as you bee giue him The Councell of Woormes where were present Vniuersi pené Teutonici Episcopi almost all the Bishoppes of Germanie condemned him of great periuries newfangled abuses and manifolde infamies of life after that thirtie Bishoppes of Italie gathered together at Brixia hauing there the Legates and letters of nineteene Bishoppes assembled at Mentz with the Nobles of Italie and Germanie not onely auouched of him that hee most impudently intruded himselfe into the See of Rome by fraud and monie subuerted the ecclesiasticall order troubled the regiment of the Christian Empire sought destruction of bodie and soule vppon their Catholike and peaceable king and maintained a periure against him but in fine they adiudge the saide Hildebrand a most shamelesse person breathing out sacrilege and spoile defending periuries and homicides calling in question the Catholike and Apostolike fayth of the bodie and blood of Christ the auncient scholer of the heretique Berengarius an obseruer of dreames diuinations a manifest coniurer and a worker with a familiar spirit therefore fallen from the true fayth to be canonically deposed and expelled from his Bishopricke Phi. These bee the slaunderous libels which I tolde you some of the Emperours flatterers and his enemies wrote against him Theo. You beleeue not the report of so many Bishoppes and Nobles iudicially proceeding and â—inding him culpable in these thinges and affirming so much to his face and euen nowe you when you heard the malitious and slaunderous accusation of one priuate man against his Prince neither discussed nor prooued but obiected only in defence of his rebellion you beleeued that and put it in print to the view of all men with no lesse leuitie than partialitie as if al were true that liketh you be it neuer so vnlikelie or vntrue and againe all false that fitteth not your fansie bee there neuer so many deponents for it and iudges with it both Bishoppes and nobles Such indifferencie wel becommeth such writers as you are which seeke nothing but that your tales may take place bee they neuer so vnchristian or vncredible Phi. Will you beleeue men in a faction one against another Theo. If the Princes faction may not bee credited against the Pope why should the Popes faction be receiued against the Prince And yet the Princes faction against Hildebrand if it were a faction was very generall Fraunce Germanie and Italie were of that faction in so much that when the Emperour had reconciled him-selfe to the Pope at Canusium and Legates were sent to absolue such as were excommunicate the Princes and people of Italie fell to an vproare against the Emperour for submitting him-selfe and ment to haue set his sonne in his place as Schafnaburgensis confesseth in these woordes When the Legate came and shewed to the people of Italie the cause of his comming a vehement offence and dislike was conceiued against him Fremere omnes saeuire verbis ac manibus caeperunt Apostolicae Legationi irrisorijs exclamationibus obstrepere conuicia maledicta vtcunque turpissima furor suggessisset irrogare se excommunicationem illius nihili estimare quem ipsum omnes Italiae episcopi iustis de causis iam pridem excommunicassent qui sedem Apostolicam per Symoniacam haeresim occupasset homicidijs cruentasset adulterijs alysque capitalibus criminibus polluisset regem secus ac deceat egisse crimenque gloriae suae intulisse nunquam abolendum quod homini haeretico probis omnibus infamato maiestatem regiam submiserit c. They all began to mutter and to manifest their griefe of mynde with woordes and handes and to deride and interrupt the Popes Lagate to taunt him and raile on him euen as their rage lead them saying that they esteemed not Hildebrands excommunication whom all the Bishoppes of Italie long before had excommunicated for that hee gate the Apostolike Seate by Symonie and had embrued it with blood and defiled it with adulteries and other capitall crimes and that the king had done otherwise than became him and had vtterly blemished his glorie in submitting his royall maiestie to an heretike and one that was infamous for all vices This sedition growing ripe they were all of one minde and determination to refuse the father who had made himselfe vnworthie of the scepter and to choose his sonne to be their king though very yong and vnfit for the affaires of the Realme and to goe to Rome with him and elect them an other Pope by whom both he should be crowned and al the actes of this Apostatical Pope should bee reuersed This opinion his owne people had of him how learned and godly a man soeuer hee seemeth in your eyes and these were not procured by the Prince but readie to forsake the Prince for humbling himselfe to so infamous an heretike as Hildebrand was whome you call a very notable good Pope The rest of his goodnes if I should lay foorth as Beno the Cardinall that liued with him describeth him all other the vitious and infamous Popes which the whoore of Babylon hath bred vs would seeme punees to him but thither I refer the reader that list to behold the man of sinne exalting himselfe in the Church of God I seeke to examine the fact and not the life of Gregorie the seuenth if that were good though he were badde I will vse no aduantage Phi. These were his enemies Theo. To an euill man howe could they bee but enemies if that they said were true Phi. True not a word of it Theo. So say you but what if wee beleeue them before you haue we not good cause so to doe Phi. These were such as helde against him and therefore hardly would speake well But others and the best of that age greatly coÌ„mend him Theo. Were they not such as tooke his part Phi. Yes but yet they would not lie for him Theo. Might not the Pope haue flatterers as well as the Prince Phi. Hee might but these were none Theo. Howe shall we know that Phi. They were godly Monkes and Bishoppes that woulde not flatter Theo. They might be godly and yet be deceiued in iudging of other mens persons The best men are hardest to beleeue euill reportes concerning others though perhaps true if they were perfectly knowen and yet there were other causes which wanne him the fauour of many Monkes and Bishops in those dayes and of many Romish writers since that time and those were the suppressing of maried Priestes and aduauncing of Monkes and the exempting of Bishoppes from their Princes which things the Church of Rome after him greedily embraced and holdeth vnto this day as the glorious acts of Hildebrand Phi. Doe you dispraise them Theo. The Church of Christ til that time suffered the mariage of Priests and expected the Princes consent in the choice of her Bishoppes both which Hildebrand
such thing and putting the Pastorall staffe in his handes first himselfe named him Abbate and prayed the rest both souldiers and Monkes to consent to his election Likewise when the Abbate of Loressan was dead and the Monkes and souldiers hee meaneth the Clergie and the people of the place had elected the Prior with one accord to succeede and came to the Court for the kings consent neither was it thought that the king woulde dissent for that the Prior was in some grace and fauour with the king by reason of his diligent seruice afore that tyme the king caught an other of the Monkes of the same house by the hand which came with the rest of his brethren thinking on no such thing and drewe him into the midst of the companie amazed at the matter and to the great admiration of all men gaue him the Pastorall staffe This report the very mislikers of Henry the fourth doe giue him touching his hatred and detestation of Symonie and his Princely disposition to make free choice of Bishoppes and Abbattes If some tymes hee were ledde with affection and fansie I knowe neither Pope people nor Prince that may not bee often affected intreated and deceiued in their gyftes and elections bee they neuer so wise and otherwise neuer so syncere But your Monkes as Marianus Dodechinus and others did the Prince great wrong to diffame him with all posteritie for one that solde all spirituall lyuinges especially where the Pope himselfe charged him with no such thing in his Synodall sentence against him Phi. All Stories crie out on Henry the fourth for Symonie Theoph. Neither doe I thinke that his tyme was free from it though his person were The writer of his life seemeth to complaine of those that were about him and had the gouerning of him in his nonage After the yong king was taken from his mothers lappe and lighted into the handes of his Nobles to bee brought vp by them whatsoeuer they prescribed him as a child hee did it hee exalted whom they would and deposed whome they willed him in so much that they did not serue him but raigne ouer him When matters of the kingdome were handled they regarded not the common-wealth but their priuate respects and in all thinges which they went about the first and chiefest marke they aymed at was their owne gaine But when hee came to that stay of age and witte that hee coulde discerne what was honest and profitable for him selfe and his Realme what not retracting those thinges which hee had doone at the suggestion of the Nobles hee condemned many of his owne factes and becomming as it were a iudge of himselfe hee chaunged thinges where neede so required I will therefore neither excuse him for licentiousnes of life when hee was young nor those that were about him from briberie but the Symonie which your holie Father shot at was an other matter Hee sawe the Clergie did relie too much as hee thought vppon their Prince by reason all Bishoprickes Abbayes and Benefices were in the Kinges gift and none placed in them but such as loued and honoured the King which was not for the Popes purpose the whole Clergie by their example and doctrine leading the people to reuerence and obey the magistrate The first steppe therefore to weaken the king not by sedition on the suddaine but by defection in continuance was to get the Clergie to bee neither promoted by the King nor beholding vnto the king but to exâ—mpâ— first their lyuings and after their persons from the Kinges power that thereby they might the more freely take part with the Pope against the King without all daunger and drawe the people after them vnder pretence of Religion when tyme shoulde serue Which at first was not spied of Princes till all too late they founde by proofe that when the Pope beganne to quarrell with them and excommunicate them for very trifling and earthly causes the Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes presently syded with the Pope against the Prince and taught the people that it was damnable to ayde maintaine or assist any Person or Prince excommunicate against the Church so they called the Pope and his Cardinals and this terror of conscience made subiectes euen by heapes abandour their Princes and aggregate them-selues to the Popes faction which otherwise they woulde not haue done had they not beene rightly instructed by their Pastours to obey their Princes and not to feare friuolous and rash excommunications from Rome whiles Popes will rule all and bee resisted by none The first layer of this corner stone in the kingdome of Antichrist was Hildebrand with his skilfull exposition of Symonie who resolued in his Councels at Rome that to accept any spirituall lyuing from a layman were hee King or Caesar that gaue it must bee taken for Symonie and as well the giuer as the taker bee cursed and excommunicated These bee his woordes Following the steppes of our holy fathers as wee haue doone in former Councels so in this by the authoritie of almightie GOD wee decree and pronounce that he which hereafter accepteth any Bishoprike Abbay or other ecclesiasticall Benefice at a lay mans hand shall in no wise bee counted a Bishoppe Abbate or Clerke and that he shall not dare approch to Rome vnder paine of the greatest curse vntill repenting him of his fact hee hath refused the place gotten by such ambition and contumacie which is al one with Idolatrie To the same censures wee will haue Kinges Dukes and Princes tied and subiected which shall presume to giue Bishoprickes or other ecclesiastical dignities a thing neither fit nor lawfull This sayth Platina he decreed lest the Church of Rome should receiue any hurt by briberie and Symonie Gregorie decided it to bee Symonie for a layman to present to a Benefice or for a Bishoppe to expect the Princes consent whereas in the Primatiue Church the people which were laymen chose their Pastours and for a long tyme the Bishoppes of Rome them-selues were not chosen without the Princes consent and that which Hildebrande affirmeth here to be Symonie the Bishoppes of the same See before him confessed to bee godly and the Emperours were possessed of it as of their right euer since the dayes of Charles which was very neere three hundreth yeres That stood good sayth Platina sixe hundreth and eightie yeres after Christ in the election of the Bishoppe of Rome which the Emperour or his Deputie in Italie confirmed This was in force a thousande yeeres after Christ euen when Hildebrande came to the Popedome as appeareth by the message which Henrie the fourth sent to the Romanes vpon the choise of Hildebrand and his answere backe againe to the Emperour For when the Romanes after the death of Alexander had elected Hildebrand without expecting the Princes pleasure the King sent Eberhardus an Earle to the States of Rome to knowe the cause quare praeter consuetudinem maiorum
not or can not procure the Popes fauour For so the Bishoppes of Rome haue vsed their excommunications against Princes and others as the examples that followe will fully declare To make an ende first with Hildebrand if either the successe that GOD gaue him in his furious attempt or the iudgements of your best and syncerest Stories neere that tyme bee woorthie to bee regarded they condemne this act of Hildebrande as vniust and vngodly Rodolf whome the Pope and the Saxons set vp against his master lost his right hand in the fielde as hee sought to get the Crowne from him and when by reason of that and other woundes hee was readie to giue vp the ghost Vrspergensis reporteth of him that looking on the stumpe of his arme and fetching a deepe sigh hee sayde to the Bishoppes that were about him beholde this is the hande wherewith I sware alleagance to my Soueraigne Lorde Henrie and nowe I leaue you see both his kingdome and this present life you that made me aspire to his throne take you heede that you lead me right I followed your aduise The same yeere that Rodolf was slaine Hildebrand by reuelation from heauen as hee sayde foretolde that that very yeere the false king should die but his coniecture of the false King which hee interpreted to bee Henry deceiued him sayth Sigebert For Henry fighting a set battell with the Saxons Rodolf the false king and many of the Nobles of Saxonie were slaine If this were a reuelation from God as Gregorie pretended then by the foretelling and perfourming of this accident GOD himselfe pronounced him the false King whom the Pope erected and maintained against Henry the fourth If it were no reuelation from aboue but a consortion with spirites from beneath then was Gregorie no such Saint as you make him that had felowshippe with Diuels and his owne master betrayed and beguyled the frantike humour of his infernall disciple Foure yeares after Hildebrande him-selfe was forsaken of his owne people and by their consent depriued of his Popedome and hee faine to flie to the barbarous Normanes for refuge and there in banishment died Romani Imperatorem Henricum recipiunt in vrbe eorum iudicio Hildebrandus Papatu abdicatur The Romanes receiue Henrie Emperour into their citie and by their iudgement Hildebrand is depriued of the Popedome Vrspergensis confirmeth the same Vnde Romani commoti manus Regidederunt Hildebrandum vero Papam vnanimeter abdicarunt whereupon the Romanes being moued that the Pope would not come in the kings presence to haue the matter hearde submitted themselues to the king and with one consent abandoned Pope Hildebrand Who lying at the point of death as Sigebert founde written of him called vnto him of the twelue Cardinals whom hee loued aboue the rest and confessed to God S. Peter and the whole church that hee had greatly sinned in the Pastorall charge which was committed vnto him and that at the instinct of the diuell he had stirred hatred hart-burning amongest men Beno the Cardinall testifieth the same though some of your Romish writers stoutly auouch the contrary This was the successe of Hildebrande and his newe made king the one vppon the losse of his hande and ende of his life remembring his oth and repenting his treason the other seeking to displace the Prince was displaced him selfe and lost his Popedome whiles he laboured to set the Prince besides his throne As touching the fact Frisingensis saith this was the first onset that euer Bishop of Rome gaue to depriue the Emperour I reade and ouerreade saieth he the gestes of the Romane kings and Emperors and I neuer find any of them before this man excommunicated by the Bishop of Rome or depriued of his kingdom Sigebert wisely and truly giueth his iudgement of this and the like interprise To speake with the leaue of all good men this only nouelty I will not say heresie was not crept into the worlde before the daies of Hildebrand that Priestes should teach the people they owe no subiection to euil kinges and that although they haue sworne fidelitie vnto him yet they must yeelde him none neither may they bee counted periures for holding against the king but rather he that obeyeth the king is excommunicated he that rebelleth against the king is absolued frō the blemish of disloyalty periurie Gerochus a great champiō of Gregories is fain to say of him The Romanes vsurp to themselues a diuine honor they wil yeeld no reason of their doinges neither can they abide that any man should say vnto them why doe you so They answere as the Poete writeth so I will and commande Let my will stand for reason Vrspergensis sayeth of the Synode at Mentz where in the presence of the Romane Legates the Bishops that rebelled with Hildebrand against the Emperour were deposed Ibi communi consensu consilio constituta est pax Dei There by common consent and counsell the peace of God was established which concludeth Gregorie to be the author of a diuelish dissention against the Emperour Phi. Wee care for none of these that speake euill of Gregories doing so long as we haue a greater number of stories to commend him Theo. And wee hauing the true reportes of these that liued in the same age with him which neither you nor the rest of your Romish faction can disproue litle regard what men that came after and were more desirous to please the Pope than to write the truth haue published in their stories You nor all the writers you haue shall euer be able to refell the assertions of Sigebert Frisingensis that Hildebrād was the first Bishoppe of Rome which attempted to depriue Princes of their Crownes and that this noueltie or rather heresie was neuer hearde of before Howe lawfull then it was which for a thowsande yeares the church of Rome neuer durst aduenture till Gregorie the seuenth first presumed to doe it leaning rather to wicked and seditious policie than to christian and confessed authoritie the simple may soone discerne or if they looke to the end they shall see the reward that is consequent to all rebellions A good instruction sayeth that auncient reporter of Henries life was giuen to the worlde that no man shoulde rise against his master The right hand of Rodolph cut off shewed a most iust punishment of periurie in that he feared not to violate his fidelitie sworne to the king his Soueraigne and as though other woundes had not beene sufficient to bring him to his death that part also was punished that by the plague the fault might bee perceiued Phi. If you stand on successe Henrie him-selfe was lifted at last out of his kingdome by his owne sonne Theo. Was it not wickednesse enough to arme the subiectes against their Prince to set the sonne to impugne the father but you must also crake of it The way that Hildebrand beganne
writer witnesseth who also bringeth three reportes of his death one that hee fell mad and slue himselfe an other that in hunting he was cast off his horse and torne of dogges the thirde that wandering into a straunge Countrie he became a skullin in a certaine monasterie and there in repentance ended his life Phi. If his ende were so straunge his life coulde not bee good Theo. I commend not his life if it be true that Cromerus writeth of him I rather acknowledge the iust iudgement of God in taking vengeance of his sinnes Phi. Why doe you not acknowledge the like in his deposition Theoph. Because the Pope is not God to whom the punishing of Princes sinnes doeth rightly belong Phi. Would you that Princes should kill Bishops at the verie Altar for doing their duties and yet goe free Theo. As if God were not both as sincere and seuere a iudge as the Pope Phi. Who doubteth of that Theo. Then shall they not goe free that sinne against his lawe bee they Princes or others Phi. I speake of the meane time before that day come wherein hee shall iudge Theo. And in the meane time which you speake of God mightily punisheth all sortes and states though not by the Pope Phi. He punisheth by diseases and straunge kinde of deathes as hee seeth cause but yet good Lawes must be made and maintained by men for the repressing of vice amongst men Theo. Uerie true but those lawes must bee made by Princes and not by Popes Bishops haue not to do with the sworde which God hath giuen vnto Princes for the punishment of euill doers Phi. And what if Princes them-selues be the doers of euill who shall punish them Theo. Euerie soule must bee subiected to them and they to God They beare the sworde ouer others not others ouer them Besides them or aboue them no man beareth the sworde by Gods appointment Phi. The keyes are aboue the sworde Theo. The keyes open and shutte the kingdome of God they touch not the bodies nor inheritances of priuate men much lesse of Princes Onely the sworde is corporally to compell and punish which is not the Priestes but the Princes charge as I haue often shewed Phi. To let Princes doe what they will without feare of punishment is the next way to ouerthrow common-wealthes Theo. What kingdom can you shewe wherein it hath beene otherwise Saul willed Doeg in his presence to â—lea fourescore and fiue of the Lordes Priestes and hee smote their citie with the edge of the sworde both men women children and sucklinges Did Abiathar the high Priestes sonne that fledde and escaped depriue Saul of his kingdome or did Dauid for whose cause they were slain when shortly after hee had Saul in his power to doe with him as hee woulde seeke the kings life or suffer his men to take it that were readie to doe it Dauid when he was king defloured Bethsabe and caused her husbande to be murdered Did therefore any Priest or Prophet in all his Realme offer to depose him or did Absolon well to conspire against him Achab ioyned with Iesabel in putting Naboth to death and killing the Lords Prophets Did Elias depriue him or incite his subiectes to forsake him Herod beheaded Iohn Baptist and likewise Iames and apprehended Peter with a purpose to sende him after but that hee was deliuered by an Angell did Peter therefore take vengeance on Herode which hee might haue done with a worde as well as on Ananias or did he leaue him to the iudgement of God which shortly after insued with an horrible plague The tyrantes of all ages and vices of all princes both before the comming of our Sauiour and since haue they beene punished by Priestes as you woulde haue it or else haue they beene reserued to Gods tribunals as we affirme Phi. Some haue beene punished by Priestes though not all Theoph. Shew but one prince for fiue thowsand yeares since the first foundation of the earth that was iudicially cited examined corrected by a priest til Hildebrand began this new president If any princes were during all that time repressed it was done by their own states realms that for their extreme tyranny priests alwaies refrained those attempts and neuer thought it any part of their vocatioÌ„ to medle with the changing and altering of kingdoms Phi. It is a better readier way to reforme princes to subiect them to the tribunall of one godly Bishop as we do than to leaue them in thraldome to popular tumults and mutinies as you do Theo. We leaue them in thraldom to none but only to God and to serue him is no thraldome but an honorable and princely liberty Yet if princes were to choose their iudges among men they were farre better referre themselues to the generall consent of their Nobles commons at home than hold their scepters at the pleasures of disdainful seditious Popes which seeke to dishonor their persons impouerish their Realmes Phi. You speake this of spite Theo. Your own examples wil proue it a truth How dealt Adrian the fourth and Alexander the third with Frederike the first a wise valiaunt and vertuous prince Did not Adrian receiue a great summe of mony to excommunicate the Emperor the stomack which the pope tooke against the prince grew it not vpon these causes for that the Emperor in his letters put his own name before the Popes and required homage fealty of the Bishops for their temporalities and would not suffer the Cardinals to pray vpon the churches of Germany Did not the Cardinals conspire bind themselues with an oth that they would neuer choose any to be Pope but one that should be an opposite to this Emperor And when AlexaÌ„der the third was shuffled in by that faction against Victor did he not twise refuse to haue the matter discussed by councel and stirred vp the kings of Scicily France and the states of Venice against the Emperour and caused all the cities countries of Italie to rebell against him and hauing taken his thirde sonne prisoner would hee restore him or make peace with the father til in presence of al the people at the dore of S. Marks church in Venice the prince had cast his body flat on the ground the pope setting his foote on the Emperors neck had auanced himself with that part of the Psalme which saith Thou shalt walke vpoÌ„ the aspe the basilisk and shalt tread the lion and dragon vnder thy feete The parts that were plaied by the Bishops of Rome with Frederike the second Lodouik of Bauaria king Iohn of this Lande and Lewes the 12. of that name king of France which are your own examples if I should largely pursue theÌ„ a whole volume would not suffice them I wil therfore rip vp so much only as shal let the reader see with what cunning these princes were wearied with what pride they
were despised when they trauelled for peace Phi. But say no more than you wil proue Theo. Your owne friends shal heare me recorde that I doe not faine The griefe that Adrian the fourth conceiued againâ—â— Frederike the first the occasious therof though I might report out of Radeuicus that thâ—â— liued yet had I rather take them out of Adrians owne words in his epistle to Frederik which are these By the word of truth we are taught that euery one which exalteth himself shal be brought low Wherfore we maruel not a litle at your discretion that you giue not S. Peter the holy Church of Rome that reuerence which you ought For in your letters directed vnto vs you set your name before ours which is a note of presumption I will not say arrogancie What shal I speak of the fidelitie which you promised confirmed with an oth to S. Peter to vs in what sort you perform it when as you require homage exact fealty of them which be gods the sons of the most high euery one of them I meane the Bishops closing their haÌ„ds within yours wheÌ„ you receiue it setting your self against vs you shut not only the churches but the cities of your kingdom against the Cardinals that came froÌ„ our side Repent therefore repent we aduise you lest whiles you couet the thinges which you should not you loose that which you haue For the better discerning of the Popes ambitious enuious spirit you shall hear with what mildnes lenitie the prince made his answere Whatsoeuer regality your PopedoÌ„ hath you gat it by the gift of princes WhereupoÌ„ when we write to the Bishop of Rome by right by ancient vse we set our name first Looke your records if before you did not marke this which we say there you shall find it Of them whom you call gods I winne by adoption since they hold part of our regalities why should we not exact both homage and an oth of fealtie whereas our master yours holding nothing of any earthly king but bestowing all good things on all men paied tribute to Caesar for himselfe for Peter gaue you an example so to do saying Learne of me for I am meeke and humble in hart Let therefore your Bishops either restore vs our temporalities or if they finde them so profitable that they will not let them giue to God that which is Gods and to Cesar that which is Cesars due To your Cardinals our churches are shut our cities not open because we see them to be no Preachers but spoilers no makers of peace but snatchers of mony no reformers of meÌ„ but insatiable scrapers of gold WheÌ„ we shal see them to be such as the church needeth that is bringing peace lightning countries assisting the humble in equity we our selues wil not fail to appoint for them necessary prouisioÌ„ maintenaÌ„ce And to tel you truth you giue vs cause to suspect your humility meekenes which is the nource of al vertues when you quarel with temporall persons about these matters which make nothing to religioÌ„ We caÌ„ not choose but send you this answere when we see the detestable beast of pride to haue crept vnto Peters seate This reply though grouÌ„ded on nothing but manifest reason trueth did so sting the Pope his Cardinals that they ioyned in a generall conspiracy with WilliaÌ„ king of Scicily verie neere all the cities of Italy to crosse the Emperour to the vtmost of their powers and when the Pope died to choose none but one of the same faction that should continually pursue the Prince both with sedition and excommunication till they gate the vpper hande of him Iohannis Cremonensis a writer of that time saieth In this conspiracie the greater part of the Cardinals William king of Scicilie and almost all the cities of Italie bounde them-selues with many Barons and other greater men and a mighty masse of monie was giuen to Pope Adrian that hee shoulde excommunicate the Emperour And farther hee saieth hee learned of credible men of Millan and Brixia that were parties in this action that the conspiracie with Pope Adrian was so fastned with othes that none of them might leaue the rest or seeke the Emperours fauour without the consent of all and if the Pope departed this life they should choose a Cardinall of the same confederacie The reward which Adrian receiued at Gods hand as that writer sayth was this that A few daies after he had denounced his excommunication against the Emperor at Anagnia as he walked abroad to refresh himself came to a spring to tast of the water a flie by report entred his mouth and stucke so fast to his throate that by no helpe of Physitions it could be remoued til hee gaue vp the ghost Phi. Nauclerus you knowe doubteth of this storie because the Italian writers make no mention of it Theo. That is no reason to disproue the writer You know what Cuspinian a man of your owne side saith of your Italian stories in the liues of both the Frederikes Merula an Italian not knowing the thinges which Emperour Frederike did but as following Blondus or Platina doth fouly erre many times And againe The Italians as Blondus Platina both of one age complaine of the want of stories They disdayned to reade the chronicles of the Germanes the which because they sauored not of the Romane eloquence they reiected and missing in many pointes they affirm very often lies for truth Some of them offended with the whole Nation of Germanie call all the Germane Princes that were Emperors barbarians And to flatter their Popes they charge the Germane Princes with many moe vices than they had Want of other writers before them hatred of the Germans whose Princes often wasted Italie with fire and sword and a naturall desire to magnifie the Pope made the Italians disdaine to seeke the truth or to dissemble it when they saw it Phi. Did not the Germanes thinke you beare affection towardes their Princes and spite the Pope for accursing and impugning their Emperours Theo. I alleadge none but Priests Monks Abbats that were in the Popes danger and not in the Princes and such as otherwise did honour the Pope depend vppon his See saue when he offered so open wrong and violence that no Prince coulde indure it But we wade further than we neede Nauclerus doubteth whether AdriaÌ„ were choked with a flie but of the conspiracie which is the thing that I purposed neither hee nor you can doubt It was complained of by the Cardinals that refused their societie it was confessed by the citizens of Millan it was proued in the Councell of Pauia it was reported by letters both from the Prince from the * Bishop of Babenberge to Eberhard the Archbishop of Saltzburge it was verified by the sequele I mean by the wilful resistaÌ„ces which the coÌ„federat
cities of Italie doubled tripled to their vtter ouerthrow and by inciting the kinges of Fraunce England Spaine and Scicily to ioine against Frederike which thing Alexander the third a Cardinall of the same conspiracie with Adrian laboured for life to compasse Phi. Could you blame him Did not Frederik set vp Victor an Antipape against him chase Alexander froÌ„ his See Theo. Frederike did not set him vp but when two were chosen in a tumult the councel of Papia discussing the cause pronounced for Victor against Alexander their iudgement did the Emperor follow Phi. He might wel folow it for himself did procure it Theo. It is not true The Bishops of Italie Germany and other Countries were assembled by him and the matter committed as in the sight of God to their integrities and consciences The Princes words in the councell were Though I see the power to cal councels is ours by the office dignitie of our empire especially in so great dangers of the Church for so Constantine Theodosius Iustinian and of later memory Charles the great and Otho are knowen to haue done yet authority to define this weightie and chiefe matter I leaue to your wisedoms and iudgements For God hath made you Priestes and giuen you power to iudge of vs. And because in thinges which pertaine to God it is not for vs to iudge of you we exhort you to behaue your selues in this cause as those that looke for none other iudge ouer you but God This when he had saide he withdrew himselfe from the councell committing the whole examination of the matter to the church and to the persons Ecclesiasticall there assembled which were infinite There were fiftie Archbishops Bishops Abbats and Priors innumerable There were also the Embassadors of diuers nations promising whatsoeuer the Synod decreed should vndoubtedly bee receiued of their Realmes See their proofes and proceedinges of this councell in the chapters that follow and shew vs howe you can infringe them Phi. Alexander had the greater part of the Cardinals Theo. The greater part of the Cardinals had conspired to choose none but one that was and would be an enimie to the Prince to that intent had they taken an othe Adrian yet liuing After his death when they came to choose a successour the people the Clergie were as earnest to haue none but one that shoulde keepe the citie at peace with the Prince Whereupon the conspirators not daring to vtter themselues for feare of some vproare nine of the Cardinals the rest seeing and not contradicting at the importunate clamour of the people and clergie put the Popes mantle or cope vpon Octauian the Cardinall and placed him in S. Peters chaire and perfourmed all other solemnities of his inthronization with the great ioy of the whole citie the conspiratours which were 14 in number beholding al this and not gainsaying it or any part of it though they were present Twelue daies after Victor was immantled and possessed of the Popedom had receiued the obediences of the clergie throughout Rome the conspirators secretly departing the citie not so much as calling the rest of the Cardinals to their election by them-selues without the presence or allowance of the people or clergie set vp Rowland the chief man of their faction to be Pope named him Alexander This garboyle being brought to the Prince by the complaint of both partes he by letters messengers warned both sides to come to the councell that should be kept at Papia and there to heare the iudgement of the Bishoppes for the determining of this strife which Alexander and his adherentes vtterly refused These thinges were iustly proued before the Bishoppes assembled at Papia and sentence pronounced with Victor against Alexander What did Frederike in this case that a Christian Prince might not lawfully do in the like How could he do lesse than cal both parts to the Synod and commit the matter to the iudgement of the Bishops Or how could he but fauour and defend that â—ide which was now cleared and confirmed by the councell Phi. Victors election was faultie from the beginning Theo. If there were any fault in Victors election it was theirs that should haue presently protested against his ordering but in Alexanders there was neither right nor forme of any election They were ioyned in a wicked compact had thereto bound them selues by oth which by law was sufficient to forfeit their voices Againe their own silence drowned their interest when they would not or durst not speake their minds at the time place appointed for the choice Thirdly to their electioÌ„ they called not those who had right to be present to choose as wel as theÌ„selues therefore all that they did was vtterly voide Fourthly they had neither the consent of the clergy nor laity which by order duty they ought to aske Lastly they disdained the summoÌ„s both of the Emperor yâ— councel which by the canoÌ„s they should haue obeied and therefore might be depriued of the right which they had much more discharged from that which they neuer had Phi. The councell was not indifferent The. No more is any iudge to him that offendeth Phi. The Prince had no power to call the councel much lesse to summon the Pope Theo. You speake like your selfe Who called the ancient councels summoned the Popes to be present at them but Princes And why might not this councell cite depriue Alexander for his contempt as wel as the couÌ„cels of Pisa ConstaÌ„ce Basil did other Popes that came after for the like contumacie specially wheÌ„ as Alexander was yet no Pope but in strife with an other for the Popedome Phi. Platina saith Alexander had 22. Cardinals Victor but 3. Theo. So Alexander himselfe craketh whom Platina followeth but the contrary part testified that there were nine on the one side fourteene on the other Howbeit I stande not on these minutes of elections I note first the causes that prouoked the Pope his Cardinals to conspire against Frederike next the meanes they vsed to persue him and wearie him The causes were the setting of the Princes name in his letters before the Popes the requiring of homage of the Bishops stopping the Cardinals from spoiling his churches vnder a colour of visiting them Of these pretences and Frederiks answeres let the worlde iudge The meanes were the Pope did excommunicate the Prince his fautors gate Crema Placentia Verona Millan Brixia to rebel linked fifteene cities of Italie in a league with the king of Scicilie not long before his mortall enimie of purpose to withstand Frederike procured Henrie Duke of Saxonie to forsake his master in the fielde stirred the Princes of Fraunce England Spainei and the Venetians what they coulde to annoy him With these policies he began and with these he continueth euen at this present Thus your holy father with warres rebellions and
not be possible for him and the Princes that succeeded him to represse the Popes insolencie which beganne to increase apace This was the true cause why Gregorie the 9. set himselfe against Frederike the second after his first absolution which cost so many thousands what soeuer the Italian writers do imagine in hatred of Frederike whom they misliked as well for persuing the Pope as for spoyling and wasting their natiue Countrie Phi. Did hee not well deserue their hatred that ranged ouer all Italie with incredible cruelty sacked their cities filled euery towne village familie with mortal discord and dissention banished and murdered Bishoppes imprisoned the Cardinals Prelats as they were comming to the Councel so pursued inclosed the Pope that he died for very griefe of heart as Platina writeth Theo. Will you kindle a fire and then looke it should not burne What other fruits of warre coulde you expect but these or worse You made leagues to bereaue him of his right you caused his subiects to meete him in the field you accursed his person and depriued him of his Empire you came out in armes against him as you would against a Turk or an Infidel you did what you could to requite him his with like rage and violence when you could not be euen with him you thought it best to complaine of his crueltie But you loose your labour For warres are iudged by their causes and not by their consequents If Frederikes cause were good as the persuite of his right demand of obedience within the Territories of his Empire could not be euil thē your rebellions confederatiōs excōmunications depriuations such like actions to resist him defraud him or oppresse him were al wrongful wicked and his reuenge of your conspiracies treacheries though sharp and seuere was lawful as the cause stood needful Phi. No Prince euer delt so badlie with the Church of Rome as Frederike did Theo. No Prince was euer prouoked with halfe the iniuries with the which he was He was foure seueral times solemnly deposed by the bishops of Rome once by Honorius twise by Gregorie lastly by Innocentius the 4. his good friend whiles he was a Cardinal but his capital enimie when hee came to bee Pope Phi. It skilleth not how often it was done so long as it was done for causes vrgent important Theo. If the Pope had any such power as he hath not the causes must be iust and true which these were not Phi. Yes that they were And though the rest did not so plainely expresse thē which maketh you to carp at them yet Innocentius the 4. layeth his downe in writing which are extant to this day Theo. You say trueth The censure of Innocentius against Frederike the second is extant in your Decretals and foure causes of his deposition there remembred Phi. And those no lesse than periurie sacrilege heresie iniurie and oppression of the Church of Rome The. If it be enough for you to obiect what you list you may soone condemne whom you please We heare your holy father in his magnificence charge the Emperour with these foure things but I winne it woulde trouble him or you to prooue them Hee committed periurie the Pope sayth in his iudiciall sentence by rashly breaking the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire If the trueth were well tried this periurie lighteth on the Pope and not on the Prince For Howe coulde the Popes Legates be in the field against the Prince to assist his rebels and not breake the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire Is the Popes power so infinite that he can make right in the Prince to be periurie and warre in him-selfe to bee peace The taking and deteyning of Cardinals and Prelates was the sacrilege which in this place is obiected to the Prince but when you proue that Prelats and Cardinals be no subiectes and that they may lawfully take armes against Princes and yet no Prince must lay handes on them then you may chaunce to haue an action of wrongful detynue against the Emperour but not of sacrilege It is a point of your popish pride to make it sacrilege for a lawfull magistrate to restraine your parish Priestes of Rome from their seditious intens practises What are your Cardinals by Gods Law more than other Clergie men or why may not the Prince both represse them and punish them if they disturbe his state Phi. They were not his subiects Theo. Then were they his enemies since they came armed and presumed with their shippes to encounter his why should he not sease them as his prisoners Phi. They came to keepe a Councel being thereto called by the Popes authoritie Theo. To call Councels was the Emperours right and not the Popes and this conuenticle was called to oppresse the Emperour Why therefore might hee not preuent it and disperse it especially when straungers offered to passe his dominion by plain force without his leaue Heresie was the third crime for which the Pope suspected him Wherin if a mortall enemie may be both accursed and iudge and proceede vpon no better ground than suspition you may quickly condemne any man of heresie Princes haue warme offices if they shal lose their Crownes as soone as the Pope lysteth to suspect them of heresie The fourth cause is more foolish than any of the former The prince forsoothe forced his subiects in Sicilie to aguise him and obey him as their lawful prince notwithstanding the Bishoppe of Rome had deposed him and the persons that would not hee banished and diuersly punished This in deede was not for your profite but this was nothing against his dutie Ph. He forced them to impugne the Church of Rome whose vassalles they were Theo. The Church of Rome had a yeerely pension out of Sicilie which is here specified more the Pope could not claim and that pensiō was first yeelded by those that vsurped the kingdome of Sicilie against the Empire For Roger of Normanie whē Lotharius the Emperor had chased him out of Apulia Campania taken those countries from him intended the like for Calabria Sicilie but that he was called away by suddain occasions died before he could returne grew to a secret compact with the bishop of Rome to hold the kingdome of Sicilie which the Emperour claymed as from the Church of Rome by a yeerely recognisance After the death of Lotharius Conradus the next Emperour was so troubled first with rebellion at home then with an expedition into Syria that he had no leasure to thinke of Sicilie Against Frederike the first who succeeded Conrade in the Empire did William of Sicilie nephew to this Roger for his sonne raigned not long conspire with the cities of Lombardie and the Bishoppe of Rome to keepe the Germane Emperour aloofe from Italie and so long they striued hauing
this tragical intemperance of the Bishoppe of Rome I speake for the most part of them their manifest neglect of the Popes factours bulles plaine speach in their Synodes and assemblees wil testifie Which Auentinus a man of the same religion that you are thus reporteth Albertus the Popes agent in Germanie sent the Popes bulles to al the Germane Bishoppes for the publishing of Frederikes excommunication not one of them obeyeth him He commaunded the Abbats to accurse the Bishops they regarded him not He chargeth the Clergie to choose them newe Bishops and the Monkes to elect other Abbates if they continued in this contempt Euery one began to maruaile at the straungenes of this example neuer offered much lesse vrged before his time In no one place was this message quietly heard Al men stormed disdained and raged detesting the rashnes of the Popes Nuntio whose life and manners they were well acquainted with Germanie was ful of tumults men saying plainely that the Bishoppe of Rome commenced a most shamefull enterprise against right and equitie Euen so when Rauerius an other of the Popes Agents deliuered Sigefride Bishop of Rentzburge a bull from Rome against the Prince Al men derided the impudencie of the man demanded what that light and superstitious Frenchman or what the Bishoppe of Rome himselfe had to doe in Germanie without the consent of the Germane Bishoppes his collegues They were offended and displeased to see such tumults raised and discord sowed they proclaimed with open mouth that the libertie of Christians was oppressed and the flocke redeemed with the blood of Christ brought into bondage by false Pastors And when Albert woulde not cease The Bishops of Germanie not onely made light of his mandates but accursed him in euery Church Abbay as an enemie of Christian concord and a most pestilent Arch-heretike decreeing him to be worse than any Turke Iew Saracene or Tartare openly blaming the Bishoppe of Rome for attempting those thinges among Christians contrarie to right and reason contrarie to the Lawe of Nations and Doctrine of Christ which were not vsed among the most cruel Tartares In the midst of these sturres the Nobles Prelates of Germanie meeting to consult for the state of their common wealth Eberhardus the Archbishop of Saltzburge a graue and woorthie father one that sate primate of that place fourty sixe yeres and had experience of ten Bishops of Rome vnder Frederike the first Henry the sixt and nowe this Frederike hauing long tried and well marked the driftes and cunning of the Romish Prelates in the eares of the whole assemblie displaied your holie fathers armes with these wordes Our Lord and Sauiour Christ did earnestly warne vs that we shoulde take heede of false Christ and false Prophets which couered with sheepes clothing that is with the names of Christians and titles of Bishops woulde tyrannize ouer vs and illude vs and they as hee taught must be discerned by their workes to witte their auarice luxurie contention hatred emulation warres discordes and ambitious desire to raigne To whome did our heauenly king by these wordes more plainely point than to the Scribes Pharisees of Babylon Vnder the tytle of chiefe Bishoppe if wee bee not blinde wee see a most cruell wolfe in a shepheardes cloake The Bishoppes of Rome haue their waies and weapons for all sortes of Christian men By presuming circumuenting kindling warre vppon warre they are become great and nowe thy kill and slea the sheepe they dispell peace concord from the face of the earth they raise ciuill warres and domesticall seditions from the pit of hell euery day more and more they consume the strength of all men that they may ride on the neckes of all men Christ forbiddeth vs to hate our enemies chargeth vs to loue them and deserue well at their handes to keepe sayth with them and doe good for their euill But the Prelates of Rome commaund vs and that vnder a ioly countenance of pietie to violate that which is holy to abuse the sacred name of god to beguile men with to be vngratefull to those that haue delt well with vs and to requite good turnes with euill yea to fight striue deceiue betray and cousen they wil haue vs set nought by the maiestie and prouidence of GOD withstande nature and resist the supreme power that is ordained of GOD. Hildebrand was the first that eight skore and tenne yeeres agoe layde the foundation of Antichrists kingdome vnder colour of religion This wicked warre with Princes hee first began which his successours haue pursued to this day Beleeue me that haue looked in to their doings almost these fiftie yeres they will not cease till bringing the Emperour on his knees and dissoluing the honour of the Romane Empire and also oppressing the true Pastors which feede and dogges that are able to barke they quench all or kill al after this manner which you now behold The highest God tooke the shape of a seruaunt that hee might minister to his Disciples and wash their feete but those Bishoppes of Babylon will raigne all alone they can abide no equall they will not giue ouer till they haue trodden all vnder their feete and sitte in the temple of GOD aduauncing them-selues aboue all that is worshipped their thirst for riches and honour can not be satisfied Hee that is the seruaunt of seruauntes affecteth to bee the Lorde of Lordes as if hee were a God The Sacred Synodes and Councels of his brethren nay of his Soueraigne Lordes hee despiseth Hee feareth lest he shall be forced to giue accompt of those things which he daily doth against all law and order He speaketh proud things as if he were some God he laieth new plottes to establish him selfe a kingdome he chaungeth and maketh what lawes he list he sacketh spoileth deceiueth killeth being that sonne of perdition which they call Antichrist in whose forehead is written a name of blasphemie I AM A GOD I CAN NOT ERRE in the temple of God he sitteth and raigneth farre and wide I thinke you vnderstand him he speaketh so plaine Phi. He speaketh so odiously that I litle regard him Theo. Yet an archbishop and in great credit with Fredericke the first aboue 380. yeres agoe Phi. We care neither for Fredericke nor his schismatical Archbishop The. Lesse care we for the wicked and Pharisaicall attempts of your Romish Antichrist whose immoderat ambition and intollerable presumption the Kings Bishops of your owne religiâ—n haue alwayes detested and resisted and that with vehement and sharpe speache as you see by this example Phi. What strange thing is it to see some withstand him Theo. Lesse maruaile is it to see some obay him The name of the Church the power of the keyes the dumbnes of Bishops discord of Princes made many men yeeld that otherwise would not Phi. The Princes of Germanie choose an other in his place
we appoint you to be the father pastor of your soules So the Monks for fear of excoÌ„munication though against their willes not without grudging gaue their voices and choose Stephen Langhton to be Primate of England Let go the wrong which the Bishop of Norwich receiued in that the Pope of his mere pleasure did frustrate his election to gratifie one of his own What Law permitteth the Pope to force men in their elections to choose whom he list to prescribe How could that election be good which was plainly wrested from a few Monks beyond the Seas with threats excommunications the rest that were at home being neither called nor bouÌ„d to go out of the Land for the choice of their Archbishop Why should not the king refuse that violent and shamefull packing of the Pope to plant his Cardinals in this Realm Or what should the king looke to haue of him that was deuoted to the court of Rome obtruded on him in this violent maner but a deadly enimie to his state as it after fel out and a continuall practiser against his person Phi. That is your suspition The. It proued too true for the kings auaile For this prelat not only inceÌ„sed the Pope against the king that he might be receiued to his See but after the king was reconciled and himselfe quietly possessed of his church he set all the Barons of this realme in an open rebellion against the king that neuer ceased till the king was poysoned Phi. You charge him vntruly Theo. His owne actes will not belie him The next yeare after his vntoward election the Pope interdicted the whole Land for that the king would not admit Steuen Langhton into his Realme no point of godlie discipline to chaftise the king but a tricke of your Romish policie to get the subiects to murmur at the Magistrate And foure yeares after when the Pope staied somwhat long as they thought in contriuing his matters against king Iohn your Canterbury Cardinall with the Bishops of London and Flie went to Rome coÌ„plained to the pope of the manifold rebellioÌ„s enormities which king Iohn had coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the time of the interdict to that present day increasing his cruelty tyraÌ„ny so these ambitious hirelings termed their soueraignes doings against God his holy church without intermissioÌ„ WherupoÌ„ they made supplicatioÌ„ to the pope that he would voutsafe of his godly coÌ„passion to helpe the church of England in this extremity So nice your clergie was yâ— wheÌ„ they were but a litle defalked of their abundaÌ„ces superfluities they could no longer abide it but desired to haue the king deposed Phi. The king seased on all their goods caused them to redeeme their immunities liberties raised a grieuous persecutioÌ„ against the whole clergy through out England Theo. We doubt not but your Monkes in this freight wil make great flames of smal sparks The king of EnglaÌ„d did as any prince in this like case would The clergy of this realm was at that time a richer and wealthier state than the Laitie discharged from all burdens and taxes to the crowne by the fauor of the Princes his progenitors If therefore when the Pope beganne to quarrell with the king about the chiefest church in his Realme and offered him so open wrong the cleargie were readie with their wealth and strength to assist the Pope against the king why should not the king both sease their goods into his handes make them redeeme their priuileges which they were wel able to doe for the maintenaunce of his crowne and kingdome against a wicked and iniurious oppressour And sure for ought that I see the king did but iustice For where the clergie refused to doe their duties and would not so much as say him or his people anie diuine seruice why shoulde the Prince suffer them to inioy those liuinges that were prouided for such as would Phi. The fault was not theirs they were restrained by the Popes interdict Theo. Were the fault in them or the Pope this is euident the clergie might better lacke their liuinges than the Realme diuine seruice Phi. Was it not tyrannie to famish so many thowsand Monkes Priests as were in this Land Theo. The king allowed them victum vestitum parce ex rebus proprijs meate drink and raiment out of their liuings though sparefully in respect of their former and vsuall excesse the rest hee kept in his hands till they discharged that function for which they were indowed with so liberal recompence Pâ—i You can not blame them Theo. Hee that perfourmeth a wicked interdict is to be blamed as well as he that commaundeth it Phi. This was not wicked Theo. There could be no wickeder The prohibition of publike praier and restrainct of the worde and Sacraments throughout the Realme is rather a dishonour to God and an iniurie to the faith than a seemely sentence for a christian Bishop You can neither shew vs warrant for it in the Scriptures nor example of it in the church of God for a thowsand yeares They did excommunicate persons not places they thrust not the innocent into the same extremitie with the nocent as you do much lesse did they prohibite God to be serued in the church his Sacraments to be ministred his word to bee preached which the Turkes do not offer where they conquere and Satan himselfe can wish no better increase of his kingdome than this horrible desolation of all those meanes that God hath appointed to saue the soules of men Phi. Then let them be obedient to their Bishops Theo. You can not say the people were disobedient but onely the king why then shoulde they be restrained from seruing God and stand in danger of euerlasting destruction which transgressed not Phi. Let them bee earnest with their king to yeelde Theo. And what if hee will not though they be neuer so earnest Phi. Let them be ready to compell him when they be required so to doe by their Bishops Theo. You hit the nayle right on the head Your generall debarring of diuine seruice throughout a Realme was nothing else but an Antichristian Policie to set the people in a discontent and to make them the readier to rebell against their Princes for whose sakes they be thus put in the high way to perish And therefore the clergie men that did execute and fulfill such an interdict were partakers of the same wickednesse with the pronouncers and by no reason can it bee counted cruelty in the king to take from them their ecclesiasticall promotions so long as they wickedly ceased from their ecclesiasticall functions by this or any other like interdict This was all the persecution and rebellion that king Iohn might iustly bee charged with and yet the Pope by the counsell of his cardinals and Bishops sententially defined that he should be deposed from his throne and an other placed by the Popes procurement that
should bee worthier And for the execution of this sentence the Pope wrote to Philip the most mightie king of Fraunce that in the remission of all his sinnes hee should vndertake this matter and after the expulsion of king Iohn hee and his heires for euer should bee rightfull â— owners of the kingdom of England He wrote likewise to al the Nobles Captaines soldiers of diuerse Nations that they should crossigne themselues to the deposing of the king of England and following the king of Fraunce their leader in this viage reuenge the iniurie of the vniuersall church Thus your holy father set kinges togither by the eares for the remissâ—on of their sinnes and turned the warfare that was prouided against the Turke â—o pursue his priuate quarels with christian Princes like the Prince of darkenesse giueth kingdoms that bee none of his to them and their heires foreuer And your blessed Bishops of Canterburie London and Elie that first made sute at Rome to haue this impietie decreed against their Prince in their owne persons to shew their christian and obedient dispositions plied the king of France other Potentates to hasten them with al hostilitie towards this land and would needes be both the messengers and ringleaders in that action The next yeare Stephen of Canterburie William of London and Elias of Elie returned from the court of Rome gathering a Councel on the other side of the Sea solemnly published the iudgement that was giuen against the king of England in the presence of the French king and his Bishops and his clergie and communaltie That done they inioyned the king of France and all the rest on the behalfe of the Pope for the remission of their sinnes that they all ioyning togither shoulde inuade the Realme of England in hostile manner and thrust king Iohn from his throne and substitute a worthier by the Apostolike authoritie It was not enough for them vnnaturally to procure this pestilent inuasion against their prince but they themselues must assist it with all their might and be the chiefe doers in it least ages after them should be ignorant how zealous they were for their * backes and bellies against their lawful and soueraigne Magistrate Phi. Being deposed he was no Magistrate Theo. When you * proue the Pope may depose Princes then pronounce king Iohn no Magistrate till you so doe giue vs leaue to tell you that this was a cursed presumption in the Pope and a more cursed rebellion in the Bishops Phi. The Realme of France you see tooke the offer and thereby confessed the Pope might dispose Princes Theo. A kingdome will make men doe much The king of Fraunce was led thereto not with religion but with ambition to get the crowne of England for Lodouike his sonne Where you see the desire which Princes had to inlarge their dominions made them regard the Popes censures against their neighbours which otherwise in themselues they did mightily despise as appeareth by that which fel out not long after betweene Philip the Faire and Boniface the eight Where the king of Fraunce resolutely withstood the Pope with all his interdictions and depositions and vsed his person in the end very coursely as I before haue touched in place where vppon occasion Princes to serue their turnes and to be reuenged of their enimies haue oftentimes backed and inforced the Popes iudiciall sentence against others which corrupt affection to man the Popes processe when it made for their purpose god hath punished in them by making him their master whom for lucre they serued as long as they gained By the enuie and enmity of Princes one against an other not by the lawes of God or examples of Christs church hath the Pope gotten the mastery of all Princes and so long as they wil inuade ech other at his teasing they shall neuer be free from his yoke By their helpe he became of a Bishop vnder them to be a Prince with them and by their dissentions of a Prince with them he is now Lord ouer them Take king Iohn for a paterne Had not the French king in hatred of king Iohn and hope of the crowne bin willing to heare of this match and wagered his men and mony for that prize the king of England had easily forced the Pope to some reasonable order But nowe seeing the whole Realme of Fraunce was in armes against him and his owne Lande likely to bee diuided within it selfe what maruell if he accepted rather any conditions at the Popes hands thaÌ„ he would suffer strangers that gaped after his kingdom to deuoure it Phi. Hee did wisely to submit himselfe hee had otherwise lost both rule life Theo. The Pope did as wickedly not to content himselfe with the kings submission and restitution of all that was detained but with a fine deuise to circumuent both parts and to get the kingdom for himselfe and his successors which was promised before to the French king and his heires Such cunning your holy father hath to set others to beat the bushe whiles hee doeth catch the birdes The king of Fraunce was led in a string to muster his men to rigge his shippes to bestow aboue threescore thowsande poundes for the preparation of the warre and was tolde hee shoulde haue for his labour pardon of all his sinnes forsooth and the crowne of England to him and to his for euer without faile when al was in readinesse and they waited nothing now but the French kings comming to go with the armie the Popes Legate stepped ouer before and shewed king Iohn what a power was leuied against him and how many of his own Nobles had purposed to forsake him and wanne him rather to holde his kingdome in fee farme of the Bishop of Rome for an easie rent than to leaue it a pray to the French king his people who would egerly spoile him of al. Upon which aduise the king consented to receiue the Archbishop and the rest of the exiles in peace to restore that to them which hee had seased of their liuinges to his vse to resigne his Crowne into the Popes handes and to take it againe as his liege man Secundary for a thowsand marke sterling by the yeare This done the Legate sayled back sent home the Bishops discharged the armie prohibited the French king to proceede any farther for so much as the king of England was newely become a tenant to the church of Rome With this sleight the Pope caught the crowne of England neither as I thinke was there euer any kingdome purchased with lesse charge and more speede thaÌ„ this was by the Pope Philand If the King woulde resigne it why shoulde not the Pope receiue it And in my conceit it was safer for the King to fall into the Popes handes to be rented than into the French Kinges to be spoiled Theo. That conceit which you speake of made the King of England content to be
Polydore that king Iohn desirous to eternise the memorie of this good turne made himselfe beneficiarie to the Bishop of Rome with this prouiso that the kings of England after that should receiue the right of their crowne only from the Pope But the kings that followed neuer obserued this forme neither do the Chronicles of England report any such submission Wherfore it is certain that all those burdens were laid on the person of king Iohn that offended and not on his successors Phi. For heresie George king of Boemland was excommunicated and thereupon by the forces of the king of Hungarie at length actually depriued Theo. For the mislike of your Romane vanities your holy father plaied his part with George king of Boemland 1466. yeares after Christ as he had done with other Princes before deiecting him from his kingdome by presumptuous iudgement at Rome and inticing the Princes that were neighbours in hope of his kingdom to inuade him with armes to ioine with the Bohemians that rebelled against him Which offer Mathias king of Hungary first imbraced a proud vnthankfull crafty fraudulent ambitious man as Frederike the 3. then Emperor of Rome complained of him in his embassage to Cazimire king of Pole might well appeare by his behauior to king George who had him in hold when he was chosen king of Hungarie might haue depriued him both of kingdom life would not but yet that inhumane aspiring head of his did not preuaile For George persisted died king of Bohemia notwtstanding the Popes curses Mathias forces and after his death was Vladislaus Cazimires sonne chosen to the kingdome and not onely helde it in spite of Mathias and the Popes grant to him none else but also succeeded Mathias in the kingdom of Hungarie Phi. Yet the Pope gaue the kingdom of Bohemia to Mathias Theo. Hee might haue giuen him the kingdom of Constantinople or Persia with as much right as he did this but howe that gift was esteemed euen by those that otherwise depended on the church of Rome the choice of a new and the next king did declare Phi. Also Iohn Albert had halfe his kingdom of Nauarre taken from him by Ferdinandus surnamed Catholicus of Aragon for that he gaue aid to Lewes the 12. being excommunicated by Iulius the second Theo. The driftes of Princes intertaining the Popes Buls and admitting his keyes so farre as they make for their profit do not proue the Popes power to be good or their persons states to be subiect to his censures by Gods Law Philip the 2. king of Fraunce was earnest to execute the Popes Bull against king Iohn spared no cost for the preparation of the warre The cause was he hoped to get the Crowne of England for his paines but Lodouike his sonne Philip the 4. this Lewes whom you name neither reuerenced nor regarded the Popes Buls which made against them but shewed a manifest contempt of his censures with open Edicts seuered themselues their people from his obedience So Ferdinand king of Spaine when by violent suddain inuasion he had gotten that part of Nauarre which bordered vpon him was content for the keeping of it to pretend the Popes Bul against Lewes the 12. but Charles the fift the next king of Spaine could let his soldiers surprise Rome and desposse it in most cruel maner abusing illuding the Priests Nonnes Bishops Cardinals with all military despites furies keepe the Pope fast lockt in prison till he paied 400000. pounds for his ransome and consented to such other conditions as they listed to prescribe Phi. It was not Charles wil that Rome should be sacked or the Pope thus handled it was the Germanes rage for want of pay Theo. Charles coulde doe litle if he could not dissemble He neither rebuked his armie nor inlarged the Pope nor recompensed any part of the Pillage which his soldiers as well Spaniards as Germanes had committed in Rome leauing nothing behinde them that was worthy the taking And so long though his consent did not appeare yet he made his aduantage of their act and secretly supported them by his protraction to take the whole spoile of the citie Phi. The variance betweene the Pope Charles was for temporal matters Theo. So Lewes the 12. contended with Iulius the 2. for temporall dominion therefore the king of Nauarre ayding the French king in a ciuill quarell was nothing so much to be blamed as Charles but the trueth is Ferdinand had cast his eyes on that kingdom confining so neere lying so commodious the ancient desire of the kings of Spaine to be Lords of Nauarre being wel knowen as Guicciardin confesseth for that cause when he could deuise no better title he took hold of the Popes Bul colouring his iniurious ambitioÌ„ with a semblaÌ„ce of Romish deuotion Phi. It is holden at this day by the same right Theo. This was no right other I knowe none the king of Spaine hath to it besides the sword by the which it was gotten not yet 73. yeares since Phi. Wil you dispute his title Theo. I am not so curious in an other mans common wealth let the Princes whom it concerneth trie their own titles yet this is certaine that neither the kings of England France nor Spaine would suffer the Pope to dispose their kingdoms or any part of their dominions against their likings Phi. For like causes and namely for that he was vehemently suspected of the murther of the blessed Bishop S. Thomas of Canterbury was Henrie the second driuen by Alexander the third to order and penance Theo. The strife betweene the king Thomas Becket then Archbishop of CaÌ„terburie is reported before not now to be iterated The lawes liberties of the church for the which he resisted the king were nothing else but the rescuing of malefactors if they were Clerkes from due punishmeÌ„t exempting themselues from the kings subiection which be quarels of their own nature wicked irreligious therefore well you may call him BLESSED because you be consorted in the same quarell with him against God your Prince otherwise his pride was intolerable his contention with the king detestable his end miserable Phi. Are you not ashamed to staine the glory of that worthy Martyr Theo. First proue him an innocent before you make him a Martyr Phi. Who euer charged him with any crime Theo. The very cause he stood in was crime enough besides his resisting the prince which S. Paul pronounceth to be damnable Phi. Do you make it damnable to defende the liberties of the church Theo. To dreame that the statelines of Popes and licentiousnes of Priests was the perfection happines of Christs church and in that leâ—de conceit to neglect your othes resist the powers which God hath established is a triple damnation Phi. That we do not Theo. That he
citation he refused to come knowing his own wickednes sought to defend himself with armes Alas saith this writer being one of your owne friendes whither is that auncient sanctitie of the Romane Bishoppes vanished whither is that clearnesse of conscience gone which neglecting the threats of Princes built the church not with armes but with the beames of their vertues They refused not Councels but rather frequenting them cleared themselues from such things as they were charged with in full assemblies of their mother the church Behold Iulius who is taken to be the sheepheard giueth no eare to the coÌ„plaint of his sheepe but killeth the weake ones and hee that with his owne blood should purchase them peace doeth what hee can with his curses to increase their trouble And getting the Spaniardes and Venecians to vpholde him sheddeth not teares with Ambrose but displaieth his banners with Iulian whose name he beareth against the church All the Germane Emperours that were depriued by the Pope you haue recited Others perhaps were blasted with his excommunications as Henrie the fifth or not agnised by him for some dislike in their elections as Philip of Sueuia and at his first entraunce Albert of Austria or busied with continuall warres in which the Pope had an oare as Conrade the thirde but iudicially deposed they were not Phi. Philip of Sueuia Otho the fourth that was chosen against him were both deposed by the Pope Theo. Otho the 4. the same which you cal Otho the fifth was rashly aduaunced by the Pope against Philip and as rashly displaced after the death of Philip the right of the Empire being al that while in Friderike the seconde whom the Princes of Almanie by the procurement of Henrie the sixt had chosen to bee their king lying in his cradle and sworne fealtie vnto him and testieth so much vnder their handes and seales to the Emperour his father After whose death when the Princes forgetting their act and oth began to treate of a new election Philip Frederikes vncle fearing least a straunger should be thrust in to the ruine of him-selfe and his nephewe sought to keepe the Empire in his handes during his life or till Frederik came to age This Innocentius the 3. would not suffer but vpbraiding him with the crueltie which his brother father had shewed heaping many absurd some false things against him in his Epistle to Berthold Duke of Zaringia stood on friuolous exceptions to hinder him obiected that he was excoÌ„municated by Celestinus his predecessor whiles he was gouernour in Tuscia yea so great was his malice that he protesteth he wold either take the emperial diademe from Philip or Philip should take the triple crown from him In this rage the Pope caused first Berthold of Zaringia to be chosen king of the Germanes and when he was too weake to incounter Philip he gate Otho the fifth to bee set vp against him whom Philip so long as he liued draue to the wall but being traiterously slaine in his chamber by one that would haue maried his daughter he left Otho in full possession of the Empire in which he continued no long time For two yeares after the Pope fell into sorer hatred of him than euer he had of Philip and after excommunication and depriuation to spite him delt with the Princes of Germany to remember their choice made of Frederike the second when he was but yong and their oth past vnder their seales to Henrie the sixt for the ratifieng of that election and so by the helpe of the French king gate the Germanes to forsake Otho and sticke to Frederike their right and naturall Prince whome in the ende hee pursued with greater disdaine than any of the former in so much that in three and twentie yeares after Frideriks death the Empire was not setled in any lawfull successour The fruites of these stirres as your owne friendes confesse were impietie and all kinde of iniquitie in the Priestes and people flatterie periurie and conspiracie in the Nobles briberie diuision and vnconstancie in the electours onely the Pope vsed them as meanes to increase his wealth augment his pride and procure his ease Then sayeth Vrspergensis beganne euils to bee multiplied on the earth For there sprang discordes deceites treacheries treasons to the destroying and murdering of ech other The spoyling sacking wasting and burning of Countries seditions warres and rapines were openly allowed in so much that euerie man now breaketh his oth and giueth himselfe to these sinnefull mischiefs yea the Priestes are as bad as the people The Princes and Barons of the Land learning the Diuels Art care for no othes violate their faith and confounde all right sometimes forsaking Philip and cleaâ—ing to Otho somtimes contrarie Vpon these tumultes it came to passe that there was skant anie Bishoprike ecclesiasticall dignitie or parish Church which was not litigious and the cause caried to Rome but not with an emptie hande Which made the Abbate then liuing and seeing the whole order of their doinges to crie out Reioyce our mother Rome because the windowes of earthly treasures are opened that euen streames and heapes of mony in great abundaunce may flow vnto thee Be glad for the wickednes of the sons of men thou art well recompensed for their foule enormities Take delight in discord thy best assistant which is issued from the bottomlesse pit to increase thy gaine Thou hast that which thou didst alwaies thirst for sing this song that by the malice of men not any religion of thine thou hast conquered the worlde Neither deuotion nor good conscience draw men to thee but manifold sins and strifes wherein mony beareth the sway And because the Pope would be sure the Emperour should not trouble nor interrupt his excessiue gaine nor pride he would not suffer Charles the fourth to be crowned but on this condition that he neither stay at Rome nor in Italie which Petrarke a man of that time pretily gibeth at All power is impacient to beare an equall whereof if we had not ancient presidents enough I feare our age hath giuen vs a late example and that the Bishop of Rome hath forbidden the Emperour of Rome to abide at Rome which as they say he hath done and not only looketh but commandeth the prince should be content with the bare crowne and title of the Empire and whome hee permitteth to be called Ruler by no meanes will he suffer him to rule And writing to the Emperour him-selfe With a promise I knowe not how and with an oth as it were with a strong wall or high hill you are prohibited to haue accesse to the citie of Rome What pride is this that the Romane prince the author of publike libertie should be depriued of al liberty and that he should not be his owne whose by right all thinges should be Mary the Pope the prince were wel met
Westmonasterium de seruanda Ecclesiae libertate quando consecrati fuistis vncti in regema predecessore nostro Theobaldo Keepe in memorie the confession which you made and layd vpon the altar at Westminster touching the keeping of holy churches liberties when you were consecrated annointed king by my predecessour Theobald Theoph. Your Canterburie Saint was very carefull to put the King in mynd of Church-mens libertie but hee was neuer so religious as to remember what was Church-mens duetie to God and the magistrate Hee could call on others to keepe touche but him-selfe procured a dispensation that his othe shoulde not tye him though it were neuer so lawfull and honest And surely this was a seemely sight for a subiect that had violated his owne fayth and trueth to importune his Soueraigne to obserue couenaunts but such is your store for want of better you must bring periures to talke of promises Phi. The Patriarkes of Constantinople tooke an instrument of such as were to be crowned Emperours specially in the times of heresie wherein they made the like promise and profession to keepe and defend the fayth and decrees of holy Councels So did the Patriarch Euphemius in the coronation of Athanasius Nicephorus in the inuesting of Michael and others in the creation of other Emperours of the East And Zonaras writeth that the Patriarche of Constantinople plainly tolde Isaac Commenus the Emperour that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if hee gouerned not well by him it shoulde bee taken from him againe Theo. From Popes you come to Patriarches from Rome to Constantinople and there in steede of deposing them after their coronation you shew what was exacted at their handes before they were crowned and that not euer nor by any superiour calling but the Bishop of that citie offering once or twise rather to loose his life than to crowne one that he feared would innouate the fayth or afflict the Church Euphemius was the first that gaue this onset and the first that repented it When Ariadna the Empresse that buried her husbande aliue being fallen into a traunce would needes exalt Anastasius a man of no great reckoning before and bestowe both the scepter and her selfe vppon him Euphemius the Patriarch whether it were that hee claymed a consent in that election as wel as others or suspected Anastasius inclination and so thought it easier to exact a confession of his fayth before than after his coronation required him vnder his handewriting to promise that hee woulde alter no poynt of Religion established in the Church Which Anastasius then yeelded to doe but as soone as hee was crowned the first thing almost that hee did he banished Euphemius for his bolde aduenture What you would conclude out of this fact for the deposition of Princes I knowe not well I wotte the Prince depriued the Patriarche and not the Patriarch the Prince though hee fell from the faith which he professed and promised at his coronation to continue Phi. Hee did that hee did by violence Theo. I commend not his doings onely I woulde haue you marke that though he ioyned tyrannie with heresie neither Patriarch nor Pope did depose him Philand The Pope did excommunicate him Theo. So you sayd before but you prooued it by no sufficient testimonie yet graunt hee were I thence inferre the teachers people of the Primatiue Church endured and obeyed an hereticall and excommunicate person as their lawfull Emperour which cleane euerteth all your platfourme Phi. Nicephorus required the like writing of Michael Theo. Michael was chosen to the Empire Stauracius yet liuing and not allowing their act and when hee came the next day to the Church to bee Crowned the Patriarch required his writing that hee woulde neither spill Christian blood nor chaunge the fayth of the Church which Michael willingly graunted Philand The Patriarch then prescribed conditions to the Prince Theo. When the Empire went by election the people might prescribe needefull and honest conditions to which their princes should subscribe before they were crowned Phi. But I talke of the Patriarch Theo. The Patriarch did it not often There were fourtie Christian Emperours from Constantine to Michael and this writing neuer required but of two and those not succeeding but elected Whose coronation the people might tie to those Christian and godly conditions And though the Church were the meetest place and the Patriarch the fittest person in matters of fayth to take the Princes subscription yet was it doone in the presence of the whole people and not without their consents and then onely when some feare of alteration vrged them vnto it The Patriarch of himselfe had neither right nor power to draw the Prince to such couenants as hee would limit and therefore it was necessary the people should ioyne their authoritie with his in that action Philand The Patriarch would not crowne him vnlesse he would subscribe Theo. If he would not an other might The ceremonie of setting the Crowne on the Princes head is a seruice due to him that is chosen not any superioritie in him that doth it and if it bee refused by him that of order is bound to doe it any Christian Bishoppe may perfite it and the other bee punished for his recusance Phi. The Patriarch by your leaue had more interest to the crowning of the Emperour than you mention For Polyeuctus the Patriarch would not suffer Ioannes Zimisces so much as to enter the Church till he had banished the murderers of the former Emperour and thrust the Empresse out of the Court and torne the booke which the Bishoppes were in trouble for and giuen all his goods to the poore Theo. The Empire of Constantinople was nowe 970. yeres after Christ caried along neither by lawfull succession nor election but become a very pray for him that woulde murder his master and defile his mistresse without all respect of dutie or honestie Zimisces not content secretly to keepe Nicephorus wife with her helpe most villanously flew the Emperour in his bed commaunding his men besides the wounds they gaue him in the head and elsewhere with the hilts of their swordes to dash out his teeth breake his iaw-bones Upon this horrible and diuelish slaughter when he came to the Church intending to haue the crowne the Patriarch would not suffer him being polluted with blood to come within the Church Where he confessing that others did it by instigation of the Empresse the Patriarch required that she might bee foorthwith banished and they pursued and the booke torne that entangled the Bishoppes and that he would thinke on some punishment for himselfe Zimisces yeelded to all that the Patriarch asked and for himselfe promised to giue the goods which he had gotten whiles hee was a priuate man to the poore How this serueth your turne I see not The Patriarch kept him not from the Crowne but from the Church
not onely their kingdomes from them but also their liues Phi. That wee meane when they will not otherwise obey Theo. By your construction meaning the world is well amended with you For where the holy Ghost commandeth Prelates Popes and all others to bee subiect to Princes you with the cunning of your keyes giue the Spirit of God the plaine â—lip and chalenge not onely right to rule them but power to depriue them at your pleasures And this haynous impietie lest the simple should distrust it you ouer-spred with a couer of the Catholike fayth as if the Popes ambition and your sedition were lately become parts of Christes doctrine Phi. In obedience to the keyes wee put no difference betweene princes and priuate persons Theo. Proue that of priuate persons which you presume touching Princes and we will agnise the rest though wee neede not Philand What shall wee proue Theo. That the Popes keyes by Gods Lawe reach vnto the goods or landes of the meanest subiect in this Realme Phi. I proued that before by the dealing of Peter with Ananias and of Paul with Elimas Theo. And I answered you before that from Gods miraculous woorking by their mouthes to your ordinarie calling and attempting the like with your handes is no good argument And therefore they might pronounce the woord and not bee murderers because the fact was Gods and not theirs you can not execute the Popes censures without actuall conspiring and rebelling against your Prince which God hath prohibited If then you may not offer the poorest crafts-man that is that wrong by the word of God what grouÌ„d of christian religion can this be that the Pope may take the sword and Scepter from the Prince and commaund you to bee his helpers and coadiutours in that wicked enterprise whom the Apostle chargeth to giue tribute custome feare and honour to superiour powers that haue the swoorde in Gods steede to rewarde good and reuenge euill Phi. May not the shepheard reclaime the sheepe if they will not bee ruled Theo. But no good sheepheard lameth or killeth his sheepe though they will not bee folded and yet similitudes bee no syllogismes I trust you will not claime that same dominion ouer Princes which owners haue ouer their sheepe and oxen Phi. No but I shewe you by this example that correction is permitted where direction is refused Theo. Pastours haue their kind of correction euen ouer Princes but such as by Gods law may stand with the Pastors vocation and tend to the Princes saluation and that exceedeth not the worde and Sacraments other correction ouer any priuate man Pastours haue none much lesse ouer Princes Phi. Yeas they may force them to repentance if they can not perswade them Theo. Princes may force their subiects by the temporall sworde which they beare bishoppes may not force their flocke with any corporall or externall violence Chrysostome largely debateth and fully concludeth this matter with vs. If any sheepe sayth he goe out of the right way leauing the plentifull pastours graze on barren and steepe-places the sheephearde somewhat exalteth his voyce to reduce the dispersed and stragling sheepe and to compell them to the flocke But if any man wander from the right pathe of the christian fayth the Pastor must vse great paynes care and patience Neque enim vis illi inferenda neque terrore ille cogendus verùm suadendus tantum vt de integro ad veritatem redeat For hee may not be forced nor constrayned with terror but only perswaded to returne againe to the truth And again A Bishop can not cure men with such authoritie as a sheepheard doeth his sheep For a sheepeheard hath his choyce to bynde his sheepe to diet them to seare them and cut them but in the other case the facilitie of the cure consisteth not in him that giueth but onely in him that taketh the medicine This that admirable teacher perceiuing sayd to the Corinthians not that wee haue any dominion ouer you vnder the name of fayth but that wee are helpers of your ioy For of all men Christian Bishoppes may least correct the faults of men by force Iudges that are without the Church when they take any transgressing the Lawes they shewe them-selues to bee endued with great authoritie and power and compell them in spite of their heartes to chaunge their manners But here in the Church wee may not offer any violence but only perswade Wee haue not so great authoritie giuen vs by the Lawes as to represse offendours and if it were lawfull for vs so to doe wee haue no vse of any such violent power for that Christ crowneth them which abstaine from sinne not of a forced but of a willing minde and purpose Hilarie teacheth the same lesson If this violence were vsed for the true fayth the Doctrine of Bishoppes woulde bee against it God needeth no forced seruice hee requireth no constrained confession I can not receiue any man but him that is willing I cannot giue eare but to him that intreateth I cannot signe any but him that gladly professeth Origen agreeth with them both See the wisedome of the holy Ghost Because that other faults are iudged by the Lawes of Princes and it seemed superfluous nowe to prohibite those thinges by Gods Lawe which are sufficiently reuenged by mans he repeateth those and none else as fit for religion of which mans Lawe sayde nothing Whereby it appeareth that the Iudges of this world doe meddle with the greatest part of Gods lawe For all the crimes which God woulde haue reuenged hee would haue them reuenged not by the Bishoppes and rulers of the Church but by the Iudges of the worlde that Paul knowing rightly calleth the Prince Gods minister and iudge of him that doeth euill Phi. Bishoppes may not offer force with their owne handes but they may command others to doe it for them Theoph. A grosse shift As though temporall Princes or Iudges did execute malefactours with their owne handes Bishoppes by vertue of their vocation can not claime the swoorde and consequently they cannot commaunde or authorize any man to take the goodes or touche the bodies of Christians or Infidels Which being a cleare conclusion it is most euident they can much lesse licence you to take the Crownes and touch the liues of Princes to whome God hath deliuered the swoorde to iudge the earth and made them seruants only to himselfe since all other soules must bee subiect to them by the tenor of his own prescription and their first erection as the Scripture witnesseth Phi. Say what you will it is religion it is no treason to defende that the Pope may lawfully depose Princes for tyrannie and heresie Theoph. It is easie for you to multiplie woordes you haue stoare of them as appeareth by your Apologie and defence of English Catholikes which consist of nothing else but the Popes power to depriue princes is
a matter of more dependence than may bee ouer-ruled with a fewe piked and well couched tearmes You must therefore exactly and directly prooue the Popes authoritie to depose Princes which you shall neuer bee able to doe or else hee for attempting it is the man of sinne exalting him-selfe in the Church of GOD and you for defending and executing the same lacke not many degrees of high and haynous treason The carying of this in your owne heartes and reconciling of others within the realme that they might bee readie to receiue this impression at your mouthes when tyme should serue were the very causes why some of your fellowes tasted of her maiesties iust and prouoked indignation and if it be tyrannie for the Prince to put them to death that lay plottes to haue her crowne and her life and write bookes to auouch it lawful for themselues and all others so to doe when the Pope sayth the word then her highnes hath done you some wrong but if by diuine and humane recordes it bee damnable in the subiect to attempt or abet any such thing and most laudable in the Prince to reuenge the consenter and encourager as well as the doer then for religion hath none of your side beene martyred in England as your shamelesse eloquence would enforce onely some were executed for affirming publishing and furdering the Popes Antichristian power to rule realmes and depriue Princes which you call religion because you would plant it in the peoples hearts with lesse labour and more liking though in deede it be pestilent pride in him and a plaine contempt of God and the Prince in you that should obey Phi. M. Iohn Slade and M. Iohn Body two famous confessours were they not condemned to death in publike iudgement for confessing their fayth of the Popes spiritual soueraigntie and for denying the Queene to bee head of the Church of England or to haue any spirituall regiment and that twise at two diuers sessions a rare case in our countrie the later sentence being to refourme the former as we may gesse in such strange proceedings which they perceiued to bee erroneous and vnsufficient in their owne Lawes Theo. Promotions are rife at Rome you would not else so soone aduance two frowarde and rude companions for masters martyrs Their iudgement was twise giuen not as you peruersly yet after your manner interprete the later to reforme the former as erroneous and vnsufficient but for that they complayned they were drawen afore they were ware and against their wils to vtter speaches against the Princes sworde for which they were condemned the grace mercie of the Prince was such that her highnesse was content they should bee tried the seconde tyme to see whether those words were vnaduisedly and vnwillingly spoken as they pretended or of set mischiefe malice and warned by the Iudge to take good heede and looke wel about thē before they rashly offered themselues to the danger of the Lawes Where if they fell againe openly and lustily to auouch that the Pope was supreme head of the Church of England and consequently the Queene had no right to make lawes as shee had doone but was subiect to the Popes Decrees and censures which is the maine ground of all your rebellion and his presumption who besides you that are yoked in the same cause with them will say they died for religion and not rather for their wilful charging the Prince with vsurpation yeelding the Pope that dominion which hee claimeth ouer kingdomes and you would faine establish with your vntrue surmises Phi. The question of Peters keyes is it not a matter of meere religion Theo. If you draw Princes crownes and swordes within the limits of Peters keyes you leaue religion and hatch rebellion Phi. Yet is it a question whereof diuines do doubt Theo. You may doubt what you list to flatter the Pope but your doubting may not stoppe Princes from defending that which is their owne against the Popes vniust claime and vnlawfull force The Prince striueth not with the Pope neither for the dignitie which hee taketh aboue all Bishoppes nor for the power which hee seeketh to bind and loose sinnes in heauen though therein hee doeth the Church of Christ great wrong and oppresseth his brethren but onely for her right to commaund and punish within her own Realme in ecclesiasticall causes and crimes as well as in temporall which I haue largely prooued euery Prince may within his owne Dominion and for the wrong that her maiestie receiued when shee was depriued of her crowne by him that had no warrant from Christ to disquiet her state or dispose her crown These bee the pointes comprised in her highnes Lawes Against these if your rash and ill aduised brethren woulde runne headlong to their owne perdition when they were admonished by the magistrate to haue better regarde to their wordes they haue the iust rewarde of their vnfaythfull and disloyall heartes and my assertion is true that these two ignorant yet obstinate persons with some others which came not to any particular mention of the Popes bull against the Prince but generally stoode in defence of that power to be good and lawfull from whence the bull proceeded died in the same quarell with the rest that purposely promoted defended and assisted the bull and so can bee no witnesses of Christes trueth and glory which woulde needes cast away their liues for the Popes pride and tyrannie Phi. It is hard dealing to make such trifles treasons Theo. Call you those trifles when Princes shall lose their kingdomes and their people freely rebell and you defende the warres of their owne subiects against them to be iust and honourable by vertue of that power which you attribute to the Pope when you make him head of the Church Had you liued in Saint Augustines dayes you would haue sayde it had beene harder dealing that one word against the Christian Emperours although they were dead shoulde be counted treason Thou doest promise sayth Augustine to Petilian that thou wilt reckon many of our Emperours and iudges WHICH BY PERSECVTING YOV PERISHED and concealing the Emperours thou meanest two Iudges or Deputies Why didst thou not name the Emperours of our cōmunion were thou afraid to bee accused as guiltie OF TREASON where is your courage which feare not to kill your selues To say that Emperours PERISHED FOR PERSECVTING was Treason in his tyme In our age you thinke it much that reproching of Princes as tyrants and heretikes ayding the Pope with your perswasions absolutions rebellions to take their crownes from them should be punished or adiudged Treason Phi. There is no law so rigorous but your diuinitie wil serue you to defend it Theo. What is against your duetie to God and your Prince in that I am a diuine I may iustly debate what punishment the Prince will appoint for such offences as be committed against her neither you nor I haue to doe with it
We may do better to learne obedience than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like yet this I wil say there is no conspiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion and outwardly couered with a shew of religion If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opinion practises in execution absurdly grounded on Peters keyes and wickedly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne defacing of her person and diminishing of her right that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euideâ—t necessitie neither can you bring ought against it but onely that you professe it as a point of your Catholique religion not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince which is most friuolous false For the Popes authoritie iurisdiction and power lately claymed by him and vsurped within this Realme and since maintained extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death to prescribe Lawes as hee list to commaund Princes and interdict their Realmes yea to depriue them of their crownes absolue their subiects licence rebellions and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them euen of Princes themselues This authoritie iurisdiction and power we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of I say not by the Scriptures which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe but by any father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie when it was first attempted by Hildebrand and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of religion because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate Phi. Your owne masters and leaders whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church in princes as well as wee the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof to king Henry Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth Theo. Your brethren were not put to death for denying her maiestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall though one of them for want of trueth or wit did so report at his end and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe as some worthie witnes No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince much lesse punishable by death for denying it and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death and either of malice inuerted or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed Phi. It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall Theo. They suffered neither for the one nor for the other but for maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme which generall includeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power tending no way to religion but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith or leaue your vayne presuming and fond discoursing that a number of your brethren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall and cal it religion which in deede is sedition yet your idle multiplying of words and changing of names doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous Shewe that power iurisdiction and authoritâ—e which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme to bee consonant to the lawes of God or church of Christ for a thousand yeres and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words to keepe deceiued and simple sâ—ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession As for supreme head of the church it is certaine that title was first transferred from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yoâ—r side not of ours though the pastors in King Edwards time might not wel dislike much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne the Nobles preachers perceiuing the words head of the church which is Christs proper and peculiar honour to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some apter plainer termes and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to command and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall And no forraine Prince or prelate to haue any iurisdiction superiority preeminence or authority to establish prohibite correct and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes any crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words Phi. Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe which your owne master so mightily detesteth Theo. Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope as in the Prince Reason therefore you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both If it derogate from Christ in the Prince so doeth it in the Pope if it doe not in the Pope as you defend no more doeth it in the Prince Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere and behauiour is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ and his word whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will or precepts of God which is a thing most impious Phi. His woordes are They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ. Theo. They are so but that which goeth before
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
purpose Phi. Many you know report for vs that Charles and his councell condemned the breakers of images and a number of your owne side confesse the same Theo. In stories we must not respect the number vehemencie but the antiquitie and sinceritie of the authors Two hundreth that liued long after were not acquainted with the deedes themselues can not counteruaile two that liued in the same age and had the full perusing of their actes Againe your later writers were all addicted to images and therefore they would not acknowlege that euer the councell of Franckford condemned the councell of Nice for adoring images Lastly it is not altogether a lie when they say the councell of Franckford refused the councell of Constantinople For where the councell of Constantinople said it was idolatrie to haue them and the councell of Nice defined it lawfull to worship them the councell of Franckford as Hincmarus confesseth liked neither but held it a thing indifferent to haue them adiudged it a meere impiety to worship them Phi Then hauing of images you graunt was catholike though the worshipping of them in some places were not so taken Theo. The hauing of images was neuer catholike and the worshipping of them was euer wicked by the iudgement of Christes church Phi. At this time the West church did not gainesay the hauing of them Theo. The West church at this time vsed them only as ornamentes and monumentes for the ruder sort to learne the liues and deathes of ancient vndoubted Martyrs but if you forget not your selfe you bee 800. yeres too short of catholik euen then by the churches of EnglaÌ„d France Spaine and Germanie was the worshipping of images detested and refuted as contrary to the christian faith Phi. By worshipping and adoring of images we doe not meane that godly honor should be giuen to them but only a kinde of external dutie reuerence with the gesture of the body as kneeling kissing censing religious holding vp of eyes and handes before them with such like signes of outwarde submission Theo. Neither do I thinke that Adrian the Bishop of Rome or the Grecians were so blasâ—hemous brutish idolaters that they decreed diuine honor to dead sensles stocks though your SchoolemeÌ„ not long before our age came to that grosse â—ilâ—hy doctrine salued it with a vaine translatioÌ„ of the honor that was done to the image as passing from the image to the principall it selfe represented by the image But the Grecians I thinke ment an externall regard reuerence such as is giuen to the sacred vessels bookes elementes that are vsed in baptisme at the Lords Supper For those be their owne comparisons though their words be adoration veneration yet that externall corporall honor giuen to images the West Bishops abhorred as neither catholike nor christiaÌ„ and the church of Christ long before them condemned as hereticall Gregory the first 200. yeares before Charles called the councel of FraÌ„ckford thought it not amisse to haue painted histories suffred in the church but in no wise the pictures to be worshipped Your brotherhood saith he to Serenus Bishop of Massilia seeing certaine worshippers of images brake the said images and cast theÌ„ out of the church The zeale which you had that nothing made with hands should be worshipped we praise but we thinke you should not haue broken those images For painting is therefore vsed in churches that they which are vnlearned may by sight read that in the walles which in bookes they caÌ„not Your brotherhood should therefore haue spared the breaking of theÌ„ yet restrained the people froÌ„ worshipping them that the rude might haue had how to come by the knowledge of the story yet the people not sinne in worshipping the picture Painted stories Gregory thought might be tolerated in the church for the simple to learne the deathes and martyrdoms of many Saints which in bookes they could not but as for worshipping them he confesseth the people should sinne in doing it and the Bishop did well in keeping them from it And treating in an other place of the same matter he saith The children of the church now disperced are to be called togither and taught by the testimonies of the sacred scriptures that nothing made with hands may be worshipped And so concludeth adoration of images by all meanes auoide S. Ambrose speaking of that crosse on which Christ was crucified saith Helena found the title worshipped the king not the wood surely for that is the error of the Gentiles and vanitie of the wicked S. Augustine requiring the Mâ—nichees to shew what one thing they could mislike in the catholik church Bring me not saith he such christians as either knowe not or keepe not the force of their profession Rake not after the rude sort which euen in true religion are intangled with superstition My selfe know many that are worshippers of tombes and pictures I warne you that you cease to speake euill of the catholike church by carping these mens maners whome the church her selfe condemneth and seeketh euery day to correct theÌ„ as vngracious children Marcellina is reckoned and detested as an heretike by Ireneus Epiphanius and Augustine for hauing the images of Christ and Paul in her closet and setting garlandes on their heades and burning incense to them Marcellina sayth Austen was of Carpocrates sect and worshipped the images of Iesu Paul Homere and Pythagoras with bowing her selfe burning incense So sayth Epiphanius Of this sect was Marcillina of Rome Shee made secretly the images of Iesu and Paul and Homere and Pithagoras and burned incense to theÌ„ worshipped theÌ„ And charging the whole sect of Carpocrates with the same fault he saith The heretikes called Gnostici Besides all this haue images painted with colours and some of gold and siluer which they say are the images of Iesu and made in the time of Pontius Pilate when Christ was conuersant amongst men These they keepe closely And so doth Ireneus also witnesse they all restrayning and adiudging it to be heresie and idolatry to cense bow to the image of Christ or Paul as wel as to the image of Homer or Aristotle Phil. Not so neither Theo. Yeas euen so This in manifest wordes is reckoned by these three fathers for a speciall point part of their wickednes as well as the worshipping of other Philosophers images Phi. Put you no distinction betweene the images of Christ other prophane persons Theo. The worshipping of either is heathenisme idolatry Phi. Call you the image of Christ an Idole Theo. Not vnlesse it be worshipped but if it be then is it an Idoll incense burnt vnto it is idolatrie Phi. How proue you that Theo. If the iudgement of christes church in accompting them heretikes for that act do not weigh heauie enough with you the law of God coÌ„firmeth the same Phi. Where The. You be
likenes of his owne face and sent to king Abagarus as Damascene and Nicephorus witnesse Theoph. You may well sweare I will neither beleeue you nor Damascene Damascene sayth Fertur quaedam historia there is such a storie spread abroad but hee neither telleth by whom it was made nor of what credite it is and Eusebius that first tooke this storie of Abagarus and that at large out of the monuments of the Citie Edessa reporteth no such thing yea the Church of Rome her selfe some hundreths before Damascene repelled that Epistle of Christ to Abagarus then extant by name as Apocryphall And therfore you bolster an error and abuse the people of God with forgeries long before condemned though since receiued by Nicephorus and other fablers among the Grecians who wrate all they found without iudgement or without all shame fayned that they neuer found except it were in some wicked and witlesse legend such as your Church of late dayes had good stoare Philand And so the image of our Ladie made by Saint Luke you will say is a fable and yet Simeon Methaphrastes doeth confirme it Theoph. Leaue these late and obscure Lyars and bring some-what woorth the answering Philand Saint Basil sayth the painting and adoring of Images is a tradition of the Apostles and so doeth Damascene The woordes of S. Basil are Quam ob causam historias Imaginum illorum honoro palam adoro Hoc enim nobis traditum a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibendum sed in omnibus eccleâ—ijs nostris eorum historias erigimus For which cause I honour and openly adore the stories of their Images And this being deliuered vs from the Apostles is not prohibited but in all our Churches wee erect their histories Theoph. Can you turne vs to the place in Saint Basill Phi. The epistle is not extant but Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome whose credite is sufficient for a greater matter than this doeth alleage iâ—â—ut of his writings against Iulian the Apostata Theo. Adrian and you bâ—th shall pardon vs for beleeuing you when wee find no such woordes in all S. Basill Phi. They might be then in Saint Basil though they be not now Theo. If the woordes did agree with the spirit of Saint Basil or with the sâ—aâ—e of those tymes or with the rest of the fathers and auncient teachers in Christes Church wee woulde not so much dislike them though they were not found in Saint Basils woorkes but nowe seeing the woordes to be sensibly false if not vtterly wicked and to haue no conuenience with the doctrine of those that taught in the same time or neere about his age and knowing in the contention of the Grecians for images somewhat before Adrian what framing and â—â—ling of fathers there was to beare out either side wee thinke it easier for the Bishoppe of Rome to bee deceiued in a Greeke writer that liued 450. yeeres before him by some false reporter lewd translator or cunning forgeâ—er than for Basil to bee so great a straunger in the Church of Christ and so manifest a despiser of Gods precepts that hee would openly defend and himselfe vse adoration of Saintes Images without any scruple as deliuered from the Apostles who were farre from hauing farther from teaching the godly to worship the Images of Prophetes Apostles or Martyrs as this deluder dreameth And therefore either shewe vs the Epistle where this is written or else leaue loding the learned fathers names with such vnlearned corruptions Philand Were there not many thinges written by the Catholique Fathers that nowe are perished Theoph. And as many thinges forged in their names that were neuer written by them as appeareth in all their woorkes to this day by the iudgement of your very friendes Phil. This is the next way to call all their writinges and so the whole Christian sayth in question Theoph. You woulde faine haue vs swallowe your monkish impieties vnder the colour of their authorities but the wisedome of God hath better prouided for his church than so The rule of our fayth is the voyce of our Shepheard By that we iudge of the writings of all others be they fâ—ithâ—â—ll or Infidels If this were written in Basil wee would not receiue it vntill wee had tried it by that touchstone finding no such thing in all his woorkes why should wee regard it Philand There it was though nowe it bee not Theophi There it is not wheresoeuer it was and your alleager hath no suâ—h credite with vs that wee should trust him Philand Trust no man I praie you that is against you Theo. Wee trust not you to be your owne caruers Phi. This authoritie was alleaged and allowed to be S. Basils in a general Councell 800. yeres agoe Theo. That Councell was neuer receiued nor confessed to be general by the west Churches but reiected and condemned as a wicked coniuration against the faith and the letter there framed in Adrians name besides that it sauoreth altogether of your late forge at Rome is a pestilent and shamelesse depriuation both of fathers and Scriptures Phi. You bee very choice that can like nothing except it be exquisite The. You be worse than grosse if you take such palpable lies to be the fortresses of your faith Omit that fond and false report of Constantines leprosie purposing to bee washed in a bath of infants blood and dehorted from it in the night as hee slept by some that appeared to him whome hee afterwarde knewe to bee Peter and Paul by their Images which Siluester Bishoppe of Rome shewed him and that thereupon Constantine being first a persecuter of the Christians was conuerted and baptized by Syluester and beganne to buylde Churches and decked them with Images in euery place lewder and viler fables than which your legend hath none the rest of Adrians allegations out of the scriptures and Fathers what are they but open iniuries and mockeries of GOD and man The Scriptures which hee bringeth to proue the making and adoring of Images bee these God made man of the slime of the earth after his owne Image Adam of his owne free will called all the beastes of the fielde and foules of the ayre by their proper names Abel of his owne accord presented a sacrifice vnto God of the firstlings of his flocke Noe after the flood of his owne head buylt an altar vnto the Lorde and offered thereon So Abraham of himselfe erected an altar in the honour and glorie of God Iacob also when hee had in his sleepe seene the Angels of GOD ascending descending by the ladder after hee rose of his owne motion set vp a stone on the ground where his head lay and powred oyle on it and named the place Bethel and wee doe not reade that God for this cause was angrie with him Againe the same Iacob worshipped in the toppe of his staffe
their owne heartes S. Augustine citeth and commendeth the saying of Socrates Vnumquemque Deum sic coli oportere quomodo ipse se colendum esse praeceperit Euery God must bee worshipped in such sort as hee hath commaunded himselfe to bee worshipped And thereupon inferreth that if any would worshippe the God of the Hebrewes otherwise than he him-selfe had willed non vtique illum colerent sed quod ipsi finxissent they shoulde not haue worshipped him but their owne fiction In this consisteth the chiefest ground of all religion For God hath not charged vs to bee curious in searching his essence but to be carefull in obseruing his will Hee neither taketh nor requireth any thing at our handes besides his woorship That if wee yeelde him according to his will we honour him as our God if we alter that which he hath appointed for himselfe or adde any thing vnto it hee reiecteth all our seruice as done not vnto him but to the conceit of our harts which by nature is no God therefore an idole For this cause God is euery where so earnest with vs that we should serue him not after our fansies nor with our deuises but answerable to his will reueiled in his word You shal not do euery man what seemeth him good in his owne eies whatsoeuer I commaund you that take heed you do that and nothing else Thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought there from And when the Iewes thought to be very forward in deseruing God with their deuotions and oblations they were repelled with this demaund who requireth this of your handes Our Sauiour himselfe assureth you that you worship God in vaine if your feare or seruice towards him be taught you by the precept of men Phi. All this we admit Theo. Then when we serue God besides his will we serue not him but the presumption of our owne hearts which is an idoll this deuotion of ours though we wholy intend it to him and earnestly vrge it on him yet is it the worship of idols and not of God since hee vtterly renounceth it as none of his and being refused by him as iniurious to his truth though it be appointed for him as most â—â—t in our fansies it must of necessitie be counted idolatrie Phi. What is this to the image of Christ whereof we were reasoning The. Unlesse you can proue that Christ will be serued with materiall and artificiall images and is content to accept that honor as done to himselfe which is yeelded vnto them your adoring them maketh them idols and your selues Idolaters For they be thinges made with handes which you cannot worship without apparent idolatrie Phi. We worship not them but him that is represented by them Theo. It lyeth not in your power to diuide adoration betwixt Christ and his image or with your intenâ—ion to assigne that honour vnto him which you do to the workes of your own handes without his warrant You must know whether hee will accept it as done to himselfe before you may venter to conuey it vnto him by dead and dumbe creatures Phi. We doubt not of that Theo. Your confidence wil not helpe the matter till his commaundement be shewed Phi. All men you knowe thinke that done to themselues which is done to their image Theo. But Christ that is God as well as man is not so content Phi. How proue you that Theo. Nay the proofe must be yours since the fact is yours You must shew that Christ alloweth of the honour done to a painted or carued image as done to himselfe If you cannot you conuince your selues of sacrilege presumption and impietie when you giue that honour which is due to Christ vnto a stocke or a stone set vp in his steed without his leaue or liking For this precept Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serue excludeth as well images as creatures from being partakers of his diuine honor the image which you make be not so good as the creatures which God made which yet in no wise may be worshipped Phi. You reason as if wee gaue diuine honour vnto images which wee doe not Theo. Your schooles with one consent do giue the same honour vnto the image which is due to the originall that is diuine honour to the image of Christ. If you be ashamed of that errour you ridde your selues of some danger but you leaue your church in the briars which hath all this while professed and practised that idolatrous doctrine Phi. Our church neuer gaue images any diuine honour Theo. The fortresse of your faith is direct against you Crux Christi eius imago venerari debent adoratione latriae Et haec est opinio Thomae in 3. sententiarum distinctione 2. The crosse and image of Christ ought to woâ—shipped with such honor as is due vnto God And of this opinion is Thomas vpon the thirde of the sentences the seconde distinction Phi. Holcot was not of that minde as you find it testified in the same place Theo. But Holcots reward was to be repelled with his contradiction because your church tooke part with Thomas And so your fortresse sayth Licet hoc rationabiliter videatur dictum tamen loquendum est vt plures communis opinio tenet oppositum Though this saying of Holcot seeme reasonable yet we must goe with the multitude and the common opinion holdeth the contrary One of your Italian Bishoppes who knewe better than you what the church of Rome holdeth saith Ergo fatendum est fideles in Ecclesia adorare imaginem sine quo volueris scrupulo qum eo illam venerari cultu quo prototypon eius Propter quod si illum habet adorari latria illa habet adorari latria Wee must therefore confesse that the faithfull in the church do without any qualification ADORE THE IMAGE which they see yea with the same kinde of worship that is due to the original Wherefore if that haue diuine honour the image MVST HAVE THE LIKE DIVINE HONOR Phi. Wee giue not this honour to the image but rather to the originall Theo. Your church in plaine wordes giueth the same honour to the image that is due to the originall which in Christ must bee diuine honour and when you bee charged with it you say you giue it not to the image but rather to the Originall and so by your later euasion you subuert your former assertion For why dare you not giue diuine honour to the image of Christ but onely because it were manifest and apparent idolatrie so to doe And if that bee true why then doe you teach all men to giue the same honour to the image of Christ that is due to Christ him selfe You conclude it must bee done and yet you confesse it can not bee doone without a sacrilegious iniurie to Christ if his diuine honour bee giuen to an image made of earth and framed by
peeces to set vp the image of himselfe which God ouerthrew with fire froÌ„ heauen not in defence of the brasen shape but of his holy name prophaned and illuded by this Apostata Phi. This image the Apostles sawe and suffered Theo. A memoriall of their masters act not abused by the people and erected before they came to preach the Gospell to that place they might suffer but they neuer taught men to make the like nor allowed any to worshippe that Phi. Wee thinke they learned the setting vppe of this image from the Apostles Theo. Eusebius sayth they did it of an heathenish custome and not of an Apostolike instruction His wordes are And no maruell that the Heathens which were healed of our Sauiour did him this honour for so much as wee haue seene the images of his Apostles Paul and Peter and of Christ himselfe drawen in colours and kept in tables which kinde of honour antiquitie of a custome which they vsed when they were heathens was wont to yeelde to such as they counted Benefactors Sauiors Phi. By that you see the images of Christ his Apostles were expressed in colours and reserued by the auncient christians long before Eusebius Theo. Eusebius doeth not report it as a thing either openly receiued in Churches or generally vsed of all christians but as a secrete and seldome matter rising from the perswasion and affection of some which whiles they were heathen had yeelded that honour to other of their friendes fautors to whom they were most beholding For had the Apostles deliuered any such tradition or the Primatiue church of Christ vsed any publike erection of images as you suppose would the councell of Eliberis in Spaine assembled about the time of Constantine the great in plaine words haue banished them out of their churches Placuit picturas in ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus dâ— pingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the churches lest that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walles Woulde S. Augustine thinke you haue pronounced them worthy to erre which sought Christ his Apostles in pictures paintings if the people had bin taught that way to seeke him Sic omnino errare meâ—uerunt qui Christum Apostolos eius non in sanctis codicibus sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt So they deserued to erre which sought Christ and his Apostles not in the sacred Scriptures but in paynted walles Or would Epiphanius haue rent the image which he found hanging in the church by Ierusalem and pronounced such painted imagery notwithstanding it represented Christ or one of his Sainctes to be contrary to the Scriptures to the religion of Christ. His words are When I entered the church to pray I found hanging there in the enterance of the saide church a stained and a painted cloath hauing the image as it were of Christ or one of the Sainctes When I sawe this that against the authoritie of the Scriptures the image of a man was hanged vp in the church I did teare it in sunder And I pray you hereafter to command that such cloathes repugnant to our religion be not hanged in the church of Christ. It becommeth your fatherhood rather to haue this care to banish this superstition vnfit for Christes church and for the people committed to your charge By this you may see that images were not receiued much lesse adored in the church of Christ whiles these ancieÌ„t fathers liued and that to remoue them and keepe them out of the church was then adiudged a seemely care for Christian Bishoppes agreeable with the Catholike profession and publike vse of the church of Christ in those dayes Phi. Gregorie the first you know was of an other minde that images should be suffered and not defaced in the church Theo. Gregorie liued 300. yeares after the councell of Eliberis and 200. after Epiphanius in which time the painting of stories was crept into the church as an ornament for the naked walles and a meane to set before the peoples eyes the liues and labours of the Sainctes and Martyrs but that pictures or images in the church shoulde bee worshipped or adored Gregorie did in most manifest words abhorre alleadging the law of God which we do that nothing made with hands should be adored or serued Phi. Not with diuine honor Theo. You meane with no part of that honor which God requireth of vs. Phi. What else They must not haue diuine honour in whole or in part Theo. Then must they haue none at all For God requireth bodily honor no lesse than ghostly as due to him and by his law excludeth all thinges made with handes from hauing either in saying Thou shalt not bow down to them nor serue them Phi. Bowing the knee is not diuine honour but such as wee yeeld to Parents Magistrates Theo. Bowing the knee is a part of Gods honor as also holding vp the handes and lifting vp the eyes To me saith God shall euery knee bow For this cause saith Paul doe I know my knees vnto the father of our Lord Iesus Christ shewing that the bowing of our knees is an honour due to God euen as the lifting vppe of our handes and eyes belongeth likewise vnto him As long as I liue sayeth Dauid I will magnifie thee on this maner and lift vp my handes in thy name I will sayeth the Apostle that the men pray euerie where lifting vp pure handes And so for the rest Vnto thee saith Dauid do I lift vp mine eyes thou that dwellest in the heauens And againe Mine eyes are euer vnto the Lord. And so of our Sauiour when he praied S. Iohn reporteth He lift vp his eyes to heauen and saide The outward honor therefore of eyes handes kneâ—s God requireth of vs as his due though chiefly and principally the heart which he will not suffer any man to haue besides himselfe howsoeuer he allow those that present his goodnesse and glorie in blessing and iudging as Parents and Magistrates to haue some part of his corporall but in no wise of his spirituall honour Phi. And so many images haue part of his external though not of his internal honour which is the higher of the twaine and meeter for the diuine maiesty Theo. It is not in your handes to make allowance of Gods honour to whome you list and againe God himselfe hath made a plaine prohibition in this case that images shall haue no part of his externall honour The wordes are as cleare as day light thou shalt not bow downe to them Phi. Not to the images of false Gods Theo. It is but lost labor to reason with such wranglars Haue not I mainly proued that this precept expressely forbiddeth the Image of the true God to be made or bowed vnto Why then take you vp those shifts againe which be false and refuted
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
determination of the second Nicene councell that images were louingly to be saluted imbraced kissed for so theÌ„selues expound the word AdoratioÌ„ which they vse was lesse pernicious than the former as tending rather to superstitious follie than to that sacrilegious impietie which after raigned in your schooles and yet that decision of theirs was nothing lesse than catholike no councell or father before them for the space of 790. yeares euer decreeing or defending any such thing in the church of God and the Bishops of England Germany France and Spaine forthwith contradicting confuting their presumption as vncatholike and your own schooles reuersing their assertion as voide of all truth for that no reasonlesse creature is capable of reuerence which yet that councell had allowed vnto images Painting of stories in the church is somwhat ancient but neither Apostâ—lik nor catholike It was receiued in some places vpon priuate mens affections as an ornament for their churches but vsed as altogither indifferent that is vrged on no man as a matter of religioÌ„ not only the whole church some huÌ„dreth yeares after Christ which yet was catholike wanted all such pictures but learned and godly Bishops without any suspition of eâ—rour or innouation traduced and repelled such paintings as things either superfluous or dangerous or both What accompt the councel of Eliberis Eusebius Epiphanius and Augustine made of pictures you heard before how Chrysostom Amphilochius Asterius and others esteemed them you may read in your owne books of Councels where the wicked superstitious vpholders of Images refute the CouÌ„cel of Constantinople but with shyfting lying most fit for the cause they tooke in hand To Epiphanius exhorting the Emperour not to bring Images into the Church no nor to tolerate them in priuate howsen adding this reason non enim fas est Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri sed per occupationem mentis it is not lawful for a ChristiaÌ„ to staÌ„d gazing with his eies but to haue his mind occupied they answer that this epistle was forged in Epiphanius name and that Epiphanius himself would neuer haue beene so bitter against Images The first is easilie sayd the second is falsely supposed without any proofe this epistle was auouched to be his in a Synod of 330. Bishops not loÌ„g before and Epiphanius is sharper against Images in his epistle to Iohn of HierusaleÌ„ which S. Hierom translated than he was in this which they disliked Eusebius dissuading the Empresse from regarding the painted Image of Christ with these words Quis igitur gloriae eiusmodi dignitatis splendores lucentes fulgurantes effigiare mortuis inanimatis coloribus vmbratili pictura posset who can resemble in deed and lifelesse colours with the shadow of a picture the shyning glittering brightnes of Christes glorie and dignitie is reiected as an heretike and condemned by those that liued many hundred yeres after him and were in credite or learning no way comparable to him Chrysostomes assertion Nos per scripta sanctorum fruimur praesentia non sane corporuÌ„ ipsoruÌ„ sed animaruÌ„ Imagines habentes we by writing enioy the presence of the sainctes not hauing any Images of their bodies but of their mindes Amphilochius protestation Non enim nobis sanctorum corporales vultus in tabulis coloribus effigiare curae est quoniam hijs opus non habemus we haue no care to resemble in colours the bodilie visages of the saincts because we haue no neede of them and Asterius admonition Ne pingas Christum in vestibus sed magis sumptu illo impensis pauperibus subueni paint not Christ in clothes or colours but rather relieue the poore with that expeÌ„ce charge they auoide as spoken by way of comparison not of illation as if meÌ„ in their comparisons did not speake truth affirme both partes as well as in their conclusions This was the skill esming of your late Nicene Synod to crie corruption on others when they themselues were most corrupt and with a shyft of words to decree that as Catholike which was repugnaÌ„t to the plaine precepts of God general iudgement of their forefathers in all ages and places before them For our parts we say with Origen Non igitur fieri id poterit vt Deum quis nouerit simulachris vt supplicet It can not be that a man should knowe God and bow him self to images and with Austen Let it be no Religion of ours to worship the workes of mens hands because the workmen that make them are the better of the twaine whom yet we may not worship The Law of God is so direct forbidding vs to bow to any Image similitude or likenes of any thing that no distinction can help you NotaÌ„da proprietas Deos coli ImagineÌ„ adorari quorum vtruÌ„que seruis Dei non conuenit Note sayth S. Hierom the proprietie of the speach Gods are worshipped Images are adored or bowed vnto whereof neither is fit for the seruants of God If you trust not the ancient fathers one of your own friends will tell you the same Non adorabis neque coles Inter quae distingue Non adorabis scilicet veneratio ne corporis vt inclinando eis vel genuslectendo Non coles scilicet affectione mentis Ad adorandum igitur colendum prohibitur Imagines fiers Thou shalt not adore them nor worship them Which are thus to be distiguished Thou shalt not adore them that is with any bodilie reuerence as bowing or kneeling to them Thou shalt not worship them with any deuotion of mind Images therefore are prohibited to bee either adored or worshipped Thus your owne fellowes were not so blind but they perceiued the strength and force of Gods commaundement to be such as we defend at this present against you And though he labor to shift off the matter with a rule of S. Augustine that the honor passeth from the signe to the thing signified yet he both missed himself and misconstred his author For S. Augustine in that place putteth a manifest bar against Images and precisely purposely excludeth them out of the number of signes which he meant to treat of when he gaue this rule His wordes are Qui veneratur vtile signum diuinitus institutum cuius vim significationemque intelligit non hoc veneratur quod videtur sed illud potius quo talia cuncta referenda sunt He that reuerenceth a profitable signe ordayned by God the force and signification whereof he well vnderstandeth doth not renerence that which he seeth but rather that to which al such signes are to be referred This rule reacheth to no signes but to such as are ordained by Gods own institution which Images are not therefore are cleane without the coÌ„pas of S. Augustines speach Again the veneration here touched is not any worshipping or adoring the creatures which God vseth for signes but a
one must keepe silence in the church and let them speake that may profite the hearers Idlely is that spoken which is not vnderstoode saith Cassiodorus Non solum cantantes sed etiam intelligentes Psallere debemus Nemo enim Sapienter quicquam facit quod non intelligit We ought to sing the psalms not only with tune of voice but also with vnderstanding of heart For no man doth any thing wifely which he vnderstandeth not The Bishops of Fraunce and Germanie assembled in Councel at Aquisgraine 816 yeres after Christ vnder Ludouike the Godly confesse the wordes of S. Paul bind vs to vnderstand the Psalmes which we sing in the Church Those that sing to the Lorde in his Church ought to haue their vnderstanding goe with their voice that the words of the Apostle may be verified I will sing with the spirit but I will also sing with vnderstanding And Let such be appointed in the Church to read sing that with the sweetnes of their reading and singing can affect the learned and instruct the vnlearned and let them seeke rather the edification of the people than the popular and vaine ostentation of their voices These Catholike fathers affirme the people ought to vnderstand the psalms and praiers of the church you say they need not Betweene these two doctrines there is asmuch difference as betweene daylight and darknes and yet you will be Catholiks whosoeuer say nay yea God himselfe commaundeth that neither exhortation nor supplication be made in the church but such as may edifie the hearers and bee vnderstood of the people you both doe and teach the contrary and yet you would be christians Phi. The simple sort can not vnderstand all Psalmes nor scarce the learned no though they be translated or read in knowen tongues men must not cease to vse them for all that when they are knowen to containe Gods holy praises Theo. Are you hired to betray your own follie or is the force of trueth so great that minding to conuince vs you confute your selues The simple vnderstand not all Psalmes nor scarce the learned wee thinke you speake right yet must not men cease to vse theÌ„ since they containe the prayses of God as true as the Gospell but now Sirs if the learned must vse them wheÌ„ they scarce vnderstand them why may not the simple heare them though they conceiue not al the mysteries of them Phi. As good not heare them as not vnderstand them Theo. All parts of the Psalmes they doe not vnderstand yet some they doe Why then doe you barre them from all since you dare not â—uouch them to bee ignorant of all Againe by continuall hearing them read alleaged and expounded in the Church they that are willing may easily increase their knowledge why then doe you cut the people not onely from that they knowe but also from that they might knowe from the meanes whereby to learne which is the high way to keepe them in ignorance the mother of all errors Phi. They will learne but litle God knoweth Theo. Graunt they would learne nothing yet are you bound to follow that meanes which God hath left to instruct them if their dulnes and peruersenes of heart be such that they will not learne the fault is theirs not yours their blood shal be on their own heads you are discharged where nowe by taking the comfort and instruction of their prayers from them you force them to neglect al as neuer likely to come by the knowledge of any one word and confirme them in their blindnes to your owne destruction and their imminent daunger if God bee not the more graâ—ious to them Phi. Prayers are not made to teache or increase knowledge but their speciall vse is to offer our heartes desires and wants to God and this euery catholike doeth for his condition whether hee vnderstande the woordes of his prayers or no. Theoph. Who tolde you that praiers are not made to teach or increase our knowledge The Psalmes of Dauid what are they but prayers and prayses offered vnto God and yet what Christian was euer so voyde of sense as to say they doe not teach nor increase knowledge or that they were not left vs to this ende and purpose that they shoulde teach and instruct vs in thinges pertaining to our saluation The prayers of the Godly throughout the scriptures though they were vttered in their wants and necessities yet were they written for our instruction And if you were not as destitute of grace as you be of truth you woulde soone perceiue that religious and Godly prayers doe mightily teach both learned vnlearned their dueties to God and his mercies to them Phi. In our prayers wee speake to God and not to men and that leadeth vs to â—ay they were not made to teach or increase knowledge Theo. The end of prayer in him that maketh it is to aske at Gods handes that he lacketh and to render thankes vnto God for that hee hath receiued but that the publike prayers of the Church do not first teach vs howe to pray and next instruct vs in many and most points of truth what to beleeue and confesse vnto God were meeter for Turkes and Infidels to defend than for such as you would seeme to be I meane both learned and Christian men Howbeit the pitch of our question is this whether they may be called prayers which wee make with our mouthes and not with our heartes and if they may not whether our heartes can pray without vnderstanding These be the matters that here we striue for and of these the first is prooued by the whole course of the Scriptures the seconde as well by the nature of man as by the word of God That God reiecteth the mouth without the heart as hypocrisie and no pietie our Sauiour telleth you when he saith O hypocrites Esay prophesied well of you in saying this people draweth neere to me with their mouth and honoureth me with the lippes but their heart is farre from me That our heart ioyneth not with our mouth when our vnderstanding wanteth is euident not onely by the scriptures which take the heart of man for his vnderstanding but by the education of our nature Dauid resembling those meÌ„ that haue not vnderstanding what they say or doe to the horse and Mule and â—usten allowing them when they pray they knowe not what no better place than among parrets and pies which is no place for men much lesse for those that would seeme to serue and honour God And what can be plainer than that vnderstanding is the proper action and first motion of mans heart which wanting in any thing that he doeth or sayeth his heart is also wanting since not an heart but an vnderstanding heart doeth make the difference betwixt man and beast Philand That is if they vnderstande not their owne woordes when they pray but they may bee ignorant of the
and therfore I rest on it as on the truer though neither damnifie vs as touching this question the worth of a dodkin Phi. It were absurd to thinke that euery of the vulgar sort vnderstoode the Latine tongue Theo. Then is it more absurde when Bede saith The Latine tongue was made common to all the other foure tongues of this Land by the meditation of the Scriptures to interprete that of the vulgar sort and to refer it to the church seruice as you do Phi. You haue skanned our proofes at your pleasure but where all this while are yours that any christian Nation had their publike Seruice in a barbarous tongue I count all tongues barbarous besides the three learned toungs which are Latine Greeke and Hebrew Theo. In what toung ech Nation had their Seruice is nowe harde to bee knowen so many hundrethes yeares after and needlesse to bee discussed For when wee once founde it a rule laide downe by Sainct Paul that All thinges in the Church should be done to edification as well praying singing and thankesgiuing as preaching expounding the word which he calleth prophesieng and that no man is edified by that hee vnderstandeth not and also that the seruice in those two places and churches whereof we haue any records left was common to Priest and people and parted betweene them by verses and respondes the whole people men women and children singing the Psalmes answering to euery part of the seruice and saying Amen to the prayers that were made in all their names lastly that the catholike fathers in their seuerall times and cures taught the people should and witnes the people did vnderstande the publike prayers of the church what neede wee seeke further for barbarous Nations and tongues whereof we haue no monumenâ—â— wherein no famous or learned men wrote whose labors are come to our age or knowledge Phi. I thought you would shrinke when wee came to the quicke you loue to picke holes in other mens coates but not to shew your owne Belike it is so rotten it will not indure the handling Theo. Let the coate alone and come to the case Wee haue the flatte commaundement of God that all thinges in the Church shoulde bee doone to edification and the Apostles inferment that the simple man is not edified when hee vnderstandeth not what is said Your shiftes were that S. Paul spake not of the church prayers nor of the learned tongues Those wee haue refelled and are nowe come to the practise of Christes church which taking her direction from S. Pauls doctrine in this place framed her publike prayers in such order that the Pastour and people with ioyntlie and interchangeably blessed and praied eche with other and either for other not houlding it enough for the simple to say Amen they knewe not to what but requiring and appointing their deuoute distinct and intelligent answeres confessions blessinges and thankesgiuinges as well in the ministration of the Lordes supper as in other partes of their publike seruice The manner of their seruice where the whole church did with one heart and one voice sing praises to God and make their common supplications vnto him is the best exposition that may bee brought for the true construction of Sainct Pauls wordes and therein the auncient and Catholike church of Christ goeth expressely with vs and directly against you as appeareth by all the fathers that euer wrate of these thinges by the very sight and view of their liturgies by your owne authorities which here you abuse yea by the partes and prayers of your Masse-booke prescribed for the people to requiâ—e the priest with and yet remaining in force and dayly vse amongest you In your Apostolike constitutions written by no worse man as you say than by Clemens successour to Peter and fellow labourer in the Gospell with hâ—m this order of seruice at the Lords table was prefixed to the whole Church were they Hebrewes Greekes Romanes Barbarians or whatsoeuer if they were Christians The Bishop shall say the grace of almighty God the loue of our Lord Iesus Christ and the communion of the holy spirit be with you al. And all the people shall answere with one voice And with the spirit Again let the Bishop say Lift vp your harts all let answere We lift them vp vnto the Lord. And againe the Bishop Let vs giue thankes vnto the Lord and all shall answere It is meete and right so to doe And at the ende of that praier it followeth Et omnis populus simul dicat and let all the people with one voice say holy holy holy Lord of hostes The heauen and earth are full of thy glory blessed art thou for euer Amen And so after Let the Bishop say the peace of God be with you all Let all the people answere and with the spirite Let the Bishop admonish the people with these wordes holy thinges for holy persons And let the people answere one holy one Lord one Christ be blessed for euer to the glory of God the father Osanna to the sonne of Dauid Blessed is hee that commeth in the name of the Lord the Lord our God hath appeared vnto vs. Osanna in the hiest If in euerie Church the people were to know when and what to answere in their diuine seruice and with many full and whole sentences to confirme and requite the Bishops prayers and blessinges it is euident they were to vnderstand their owne and the Bishoppes speech which in a straunge and vnknowen tongue such as is vsed in your churches it is not possible for simple men and women to doe Phi. You impugned these constitutioÌ„s but euen now as none of the Apostles Theo. But you receiue them vrge them as Apostolike and therefore against you such proofes are pregnant And so are the Liturgies that is the church prayers which are vnder the names of Iames Basill and Chrysostom in which the like order of praying and blessing by course is appointed both for Prieste and people Let the places be seene if they be not obuious to euery mans eyes let me be rebuked of a bould vntrueth Phi. Your selues admit not those Liturgies Theo. Wee doe not thinke that either Basil or Chrysostom would take vpon them to make a new forme of church seruice if S. Iames the Apostle had doone it before them neitherâ— was the Greeke church to seeke of her seruice till their times or toâ— change it at their pleasures yet the thinges which wee alleage out of these Liturgies haue the manifest testimonies as well of Basill and Chrysostom as of other catholike Fathers both Greeke and Latine in their vnforged vndistrusted writinges Chrysostom expressing the maner of the church in his time sayth Euen in the prayers of the church a man may see the people helpe or offer much togither with the priest for those that are possessed with wicked spirits for the repeÌ„tants CoÌ„munes enim preces à sacerdote
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
manifest for Christes mingling water with wine that you are faine to deny the worke Theo. If the Church of Christ did receiue it I will not deny it but if they knew no such monument why should you be suffered now to sort vs out what forgeries you list for Apostolike labours Phil. The sixth generall councell vnder Iustinian receiued the Masse of S. Iames and S. Basill as authentike and proued by their authorities against the Armenians vsing wine alone in the mysteries that Christ had both water and wine in his sacrifice Theo. That councell which you cite was neither the sixt generall nor any generall councell at all It was celebrated 700. and odde yeares after Christ by which time it may be Iames his Liturgie was gotten into some credite amongst them and yet they alleadge neither of them for Christes institution but only that deliuering the Church seruice in writing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they taught that order to perfit the sacred cup with wine and water in the diuine ministration Philand Call you the credite of that councell also in question Theo. I might well do it if I would but follow the iudgement either of your néerest friends or of those that liued next to the time when this councell was called Surius the great Soultan of your side sayeth that some of those are thought to be Supposititij vel Graecorum temeritate deprauati either forged or depraued by the rashnesse of the Grecians And Theophanes who wrate not long after the kéeping of the councell sayeth that those are falsly sayd to be the canons of the sixt councell and giueth this hard iudgement of them vt enim in caeteris omnibus falsitatis arguuntur ita in hac re quoque mentiuntur as in all other things they be taken tardie with falsehood so in this also they make a lie But for our parts we sée no reason to deale so rigorousely with them They were but a prouinciall councell if they were any councell at all for we haue nothing left but the canons and those contradicted by name Next the makers liued more than 700. yeares after Christ and might soone be deceiued by the titles and shewes of these Liturgies Lastly what corruptions haue crept since either into the canons or into the Liturgies we know not and in those cases which the Gospell exactly reporteth as it dooth the Lords Supper we beléeue no man against or without the Gospell And that in Chrysostoms Liturgie water was mingled long after consecration for the people to drinke the booke it selfe will shew you where the words of Christes institution being repeated thrée leaues before when the time for the Priests and people to communicate approched it is said Accipiunt Diaconi sacros calices praestolantes cum feruente aqua venientem Subdiaconum Tunc infundit aquam calidam quantum sufficit Deinde sumit corpus Dominicum The Deacons take the sacred cups or chalices expecting the Deacon that bringeth water that hath boiled Then he powreth in to the chalices warme water so much as sufficeth and after receiueth the Lords body Now Sir with all your cunning tell vs for what signification and mysterie water that had sodde was powred into the chalice after consecration if not to temper and delay the headinesse of the wine before the priest or people did drinke of it and if your braines be not mingled with too much melancholie you will perceiue that could be no part of Christs institution Phi. We find no such thing in Chrysostoms Masse Theo. It were maruel that I should find it and not you Phil. Reade his Liturgie translated by Erasmus and if you find it I will giue you this hand Theo. Your hand will do me no good I had rather you should confesse a truth than hazard a ioint Reade Chrysostoms Liturgy which Leo Thuscus translated into the Latin tongue and Claudius de Saintes a man of your Religion hath set foorth of Plantines Presse 1560. and if you find not the words as I repeat them returne theÌ„ to me for masterlesse creatures which I would be loth you should Phil. But mention is made in the very beginning of the same Liturgie that the priest mixed water with wine before consecration Theo. It may be the priest did temper that which himselfe should drincke before consecration But after consecration before the rest of the Clergie or the people did communicate they delaied it with water in such sort as I tell you what the cause was iudge you Phil. Why this was done I can not so well say but this I know that all catholike churches in the world haue euer mixed their wine with water Theo. Had they so done yet so long as they did it for sobrietie not for necessitie it nothing concerneth Christes institution which we labour to restore nor bindeth any man as a matter of religion or coÌ„science but now your flanting humor swelleth aboue truth and measure when you say all Churches in the world haue euer obserued the same Phil. Name one age or place that hath not done it Theo. That is the way indéed to cast the burden on other mens shoulders which your selues should beare and yet we can soone choake you with an instance and that by the verie confession of your owne fellowes Alexander septimus à Petro Pontifex conseâ—raturus primus aquam vino miscuit instituÃtque vt ex azimo non fermentato vt antea consueuit fieret pane Alexander the seuenth from Peter was the first saith Polydore that mingled water with wine at consecration and ordained that the oblation should be of vnleauened bread and not of leauened as till that time was vsed Lo Sir the whole church of Christ in all the Apostles times vsed wine alone an hundred yeares after Christ beganne the first admixtion of water with wine and vse of vnleauened bread in the Lordes supper which you with forgerie vnder Iames name would father on Christ himself though he in the Gospel with his owne mouth deny it For countries we can giue you the like The Armenians for 1145. yeares after Christ died leauened bread and mingled no water with their wine at the Lordes â—akle See the report of Otho Frisingensis in whose time they began to hearken to the church of Rome Their Metropolitane had vnder him a thowsand Bishops and in some things agreed in some things dissented from the Greeke church Where amongst other things he sayth of the whole countrie of Armenâ—a Ponunt fermentatum panem sicut illi aquam autem vino non miscent sicut nos illi They vse leauened bread in the Lordes supper as the Grecians do mary they mingle no water with their wine as both we the Grecians do These bee your famous obiections which you exaggerate as if they were some mighty breaches of Christ ordinaunce wherein to let passe the holde which wee haue in the Gospell being thereby cleared from
example without warrant of God or man Phi. Theodoret hath set you vppe in your Ruffe but I would you knew it in this case we care neither for Theodoret nor you if that were his opinion as it is yours Theo. And who hath put you into your ruffe that you not only despise that learned and auncient Bishoppe but the whole Church in him which then so beleeued and you cannot auoide at this day except you will bee Eutichians Phi. The Maior is not altogether so sâ—und as you thinke it Theo. Yet did Gelasius and Theodoret confound that error with that comparison and S. Augustine long before thâ—m did vrge the same This is it that wee say this is it that by all meanes we labour to confirme to witte that the Sacrifice of the Church consisteth of two things the visible kinde of elementes and the inuisible flesh and bloud of our Lord Iesus Christ the Sacrament and the thing of the SACRAMENT euen as the person of Christ consisteth of God and man for so much as euery thing containeth the nature and trueth of those things of which it consisteth By which rule it is certaine there musâ— be in the sacrament the nature truâ—th and substance of bread and wine euen as in Christes person either nature hath his trueth and substance without confusion or distraction Phi. We haue fathers to the contrary if the time did serue to produce them as anon I will In the meane while what is this to Leo Theophil Leo in few words abbridgeth the sumâ— of this reason and saith the followers of Eutiches doe in vaine with their mouthes receâ—ne the Sacrament since with their hartes they doe not beleeue the tâ—ueth of Christs humane nature and answer AmeÌ„ to no purpose so long as they dispute against that which they would seâ—m to enioye by receiuing the seale and pledge thereof in the church with others Phi. This is your Commentarie besâ—des the text his wordes are The selfe same bodie which wee beleeue with faith is receiued with mouth Which you cannot interprete to be mâ—ant of the bread For the breade is not beleeued with hart and against the trueth of Christs bodie not against the bread did the followers of Eutiches dispute Theo. Doth Leo â—aie the selâ— same bodie Phi. He saith Hoc ore sumitur quod fide creditur that is receiued with the mouth which with our faith is beleeued and that cannot be the bread The. Much lesse maie it be the natural bodie of Christ. For then Leo had mightilie confirmed not confuted Eutiches opinion His error was that the humanitie of christ after his ascension was swallowed vp of his diuinitie and so changed that it was now no naturall bodie Against this if Leo should haue opposâ—d your reall presence in the Sacrament where Christs body is without quantity shape circumscription distinction of partes and all other conditions of a naturall body he had beene a Proctour â—or Eutiches impiety not a confuter of it Neither could Eutiches himsâ—lfe haue wished a better defence for his heresie than the confessâ—on â—f such a bodâ—e as you imagine in the sacrament and therfore you haâ—k that HOC ilfauouredly when you make Leo rather a consenter with Eutiches than a disprouer of him with your fantasticall presence which is an approbation and no refutation of Eutiches error Phil. What a slander this is that the reall presence should be a refuge for Eutichâ—s error Theoph. Such a slaunder as with all your cunning you shall neuer wipe awaie Phi. Doe we not affirme the substance of Chrisâ—es humane flesh to be in the Sacrament The. Such a substance as Eutiches him selfe imagined hauing neither proportion of shape nor position of parts nor repletion of place nor anie condition incident to a naturall bodie but the godly fathers were farre from vrging such a substance against Eutiches They pressed him with the bodilie shape circumscription extension and perfeâ—â—ion of Christes flesh as well in all other requisites as in substance and to prooue this amongst other arguments they brought as I haue shewed the Sacrament for a resemblance and demonstrance of both natures in Chrisâ— that as the bread after consecration keepeth his quantity quality shape and substance notwithstanding it be vnited and annexed to the heauenly grace that worketh in the sacrament so the bodie of Christ after his assumption retaineth his former perfection proportion figure and substance loosing no poinâ—â— nor part of his humane nature but only replenished with immortall glorie This must be Leoes Hoc if he will do any good with alleaging the Sacrament against Eutiches as I haue proued by Austen Gelasius and Theodoret Otherwise if he do but mention your real presence he openeth the gappe and leuelleth the way to Eutiches furie and runneth headlong against the rest of his fellow seruants and successours that vsed the same argument to confute Euâ—iches with a manifest contradiction of your reall presence Phi. I bring you Leoes wordes Theo. Leoes wordes haue nothing in them to crosse that sense which I establish Hoc signifieth any thing and hath no relation to Christes flesh in the sacrament but to the proportion rather betweene Christ the sacrament in that they beleeued no other thing of Christ than they saw with their eyes receiued with their mouths in the Sacrament to wit the perfect shape substance of bread after Consecration consequently they must holde the same opinion of Christs humanitie after his ascension Phi. If you vse this trade you may peruert all the fathers writings and make what sense you list to their sayings Theo. Peruert them no more than we doe and you shall neuer euert the maine doctrine as you haue doone We measure â—heir wordes by their owne warrant and suffer nâ—t a phrase here and there which may bee well reuoked to their rules to vndermine the chiefe grouâ—des of their faith Phi. No more doe we Theo. Why then rage you to heare vâ— say that these few places which you haue brought for eating christs bodie with your mouthes and iawes may be referred to the signes called by those names as well as to the things themselues Phi. You take vpon you to bee Iudges and to pronounce at your pleasures when the wordâ—s shall belong to the one and when to the other so that no father shall say any thing against your heresie but yet will by and by turne it and wind it I knowe not whither Theo. Nothing more hindereth the search for trueth than a desire to lye We shew you the general admonition of the fathers themselues that after consecration they call the visible signes no longer by their woonted names but by the names of those things whose signes they are and whose vertues they haue This Rule we say is then to take place when the speach which we find in a father if it should be referred to the things themselues would be both absurd and repugnant to
the bosome of the Catholike Church as you terme it to obay their Prince against the censures of your Church Phi. I haue hast in my way Theophilus and I haue said as much as I wil at this time Theo. I can hold you Philander no longer than you liâ—t but yet remember this as you ride by the way which I reiterate because both your Seminaries shall think the better of it that as many as you reconcile so long as you teach this for a point of faith that the Pope may depose Princes and must bee obayed in those his censures of all that will be Catholikes so many both heretikes against God and traytors against the Prince you hatch vnder the hoode of religion and also that the thinges now reformed in the Church of England are both catholik and christian notwithstanding your fierce bragges and fiery wordes lately sent vs in your RHEMISH Testament To the KING euerlasting immortall inuisible vnto GOD which is only wise be honour and praise for euer and euer Amen The speciall contents of euery part The contents of thâ— first part The Iesuits pretenders of obedience Pag. 2 The causes why they fledde the Realme 5 The proofes and places of their Apologie 7 Forcing to Religion 16 Two Religions in one Realm 21 Toleraunce of error 26 Toleraunce of error in priuate places and persons 27 Compulsion to seruice and Sacraments 29 Exacting the oth 30 Their running to Rome 35 This Lande receiuing the faith from Rome 40 Preachers sent from Rome with the Kings consent 41 Preachers not conspirators froÌ„ Rome 41 Howe the Fathers soughte to Rome 42.48 Athanasius at Rome 44 Chrysostomes request to Innocentius 51 A forged Bull against Arcadius 53. Chrysostomes banishment 55 How Saint Augustine sought to Rome 56 How S. Basil sought to Rome 58 S. Ieroms letters to Damasus 60 The Rocke on the which the Church is built 62 S. Cyprian lately corrupted 65 Gratian suspected 66 Peters person laide in the foundation of the Church 67 Theodoret and Leo. 67 The Bishop of Rome resisted 68 Paul resisted Peter 69 Polycarpus resisted Anicetus 70 Polycarpus resisted Victor 70 Cyprian resisted Stephanus 71 Flauianus withstoode foure Bishops of Rome 72 Cyrillus withstoode the Bishop of Rome 72 Councels resisting the Byshop Rome 73 The Councell of Africa resisted the Byshop of Rome 74 Forged Decretals 76 The councel of Ephesus threatning the Legates of Rome 78 The Councell of Chalcedon against the Bishop of Rome 79 The Councell of Constantinople against the Bishoppe of Rome 81 CorruptioÌ„s in the CanoÌ„ lawe 81 The Brytons resisting the Bishop of Rome 82 The Grecians detesting him 83 The Germans deposing him 84 His owne Councels depose him 85. Fraunce resisting the Pope 92 Paris appealeth from him 94 The french King resisting the Pope 95 The Kinges of England against the Pope 97 Our resistaunce more lawefull than theirs 104 Peters dignitie not imparted to the Pope 104 S. Ieroms praise of Rome 105 The manners of Rome since his time 105 The manners of Rome in his time 106 S. Cyprian forced to make for Rome 106 S. Augustine forced to make for Rome 107 From Peters seate is from Peters time 107 The intent of the Seminaries 108. High experiments of Popes 112 High experiments of the Popes clergie 114 The Iesuits slaunder England and Scotland 118 What the Iesuits worke teach in this land 119 The Pope succeedeth his Auncestors neither in seate nor beliefe 12â— The contents of the second part The Princes power to COMMAVND for trueth 124 Princes be gouernours of countries Byshops be not 127 Byshops by Gods lawes subiect to Princes as well as others 128. The Prince by Gods law charged with Religion 129 Princes may commaund for religion 133 Constantine commaunding for Religion 134 Constantius commaunding Bishops in causes ecclesiastical 135. Iustinian commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 137 Charles commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 139 The lawes of Charles for causes Ecclesiasticall 140 Ludoâ—ikes lawes for causes Ecclesiasticall 144 Ludouikes lawes visitors 144 What is ment by SVPREME 146. Supreme is subiect to none on earth 146 Princes subiect onely to God 147. Princes not subiect to the Pope 147. The Pope subiect to his Prince 148. Constantine superiour to the Pope in causes ecclesiastical 150 Emperours superiour to the pope in causes Ecclesiasticall 152 The Prince superiour to the Pope 160 Ieremies words expounded 160 How Prophets may plant and roote out kingdoms 161 Howe Kinges must serue the Church 162 How Byshops are to be obeied 164 How the Church is superiâ—ur to Princes 167 What is ment by the Church 168. The Prince not aboue the Church 171 Princes haue power ouer the persons of the Church 172 The woordes of S. Ambrose to Valentinian 173 The behauiour of S. Ambrose towards Valentinian 174 Valentinian refused to be iudge betweene Byshops 177 Valentinians fault 178 Theodosius searched and established the trueth 178 Princes decreeing for truth 179 Athanasius Osius Leontius 179 Athanasius reproued Constantius 180 Athanasius expounded 181 Why Constantius was reproued 182 Osius words examined 188 Leontius discussed 189 What Hilarie misliked in Constantius 190 Kings commended in the scriptures for medling with religion 191 Moses â—oshuaes example 192 King Dauids care for religioÌ„ 193 Princes charged with the whole law of God 194 Asa Iehosaphat Ezekiah perfourmed that charge 193 Manasses Idolatry repeÌ„tance 196 Iosiah reformed religion 197 Nehemiah correcteth the high Priests doings 197 Princes medled with religioÌ„ 198 Princes vsed to commaund for religion 198 God commaÌ„deth by their harts 199. Princes commanding for Religion 200 Princes haue ful power to command for trueth 202 Princes may prohibite and punish error 203 To commaund for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with Princes 204 To commaund Bishops for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with auntient Princes 206 The Iesuites purposely mistake the Princes supremacie 213 The Iesuits cauelling absurdities against the Popes power 221 This land oweth no subiection to tribunals abroade 228 This lande not subiect to the Popes tribunall 229 What subiection the Pope requireth 231 The Pope maketh it sacrilege blasphemie to doubt of his tribunall 231 A right Rhomish subiection 232 Patriarks of the west 233 Patriarks subiect to Princes 234 This Realme not in the Popes Prouince 135 The Patriarkeâ—dome dissolued 235 The words of the oth examined 236 It is easie to plaie with wordes 237 Princes gouerne with the sword Bishops do not 238 Princes only beare the sword in all spirituall things causes 238. Princes supreme bearers of the sword 240 Supreme gouernour displaceth not Christ. 241 Princes may not commaunde against the faith or Canons 242. Gregorie shamefully corrupted 243. Spirituall men aâ— matters 244. Carnall things called spirituall 245 Carnall thinges made spirituall to increase the Popes power and gaine 245 Carnall things made spirituall 246 Princes charged with spirituall things 247 Princes chiefely charged with things truly spirituall 247 Princes charged at Gods hands with things spirituall not
Apostata 403 The Church of Christ wanted no forces to resist 404. 406 Christes church obayed wicked Princes for conscience sake 405 Leo the third was denied his reuenues in Italy but not depriued by the pope 408 The pope did not appeare in this rebellion of Italy against Leo. 409 The diuision of the Empire was not for religion 412 Their owne stories doe not pretend religion for the diuision of the Empire 413 The diuision of the Empire 416 Platina reproued 417 Who deposed Childericke 418 Childericke deposed for a foole 419 Wauering about Pipines title 421 Philippicus reiected as a rebell 421 Lewes the third 422 The line of Pipine ended 423 An other change of the Empire 423 The pope gained by rolling the Empire to and fro 424 Henry the fourth 424 Pope Hildebrand attempting to depriue Henry the fourth 425 The Iesuits commend HildebraÌ„d to the skies for fitting their rebellious humor 426 Hildebrand Henry the fourth 428 Spitesul slaunders of the Iesuites against Henry the fourth 430 Hildebrands vertues by the confession of his own countrimeÌ„ and Cardinals 431 Hildebrand fauoured of Moncks for taking their part against maâ—ied priests 433 Hildebrandes vndermining HeÌ„ry the fourth 433 The true causes of Henryes excommunication 434 Henry the fourth no Symonistâ— 435 The Moncks to flatter the pope diffame the prince for symonie 436 What Hildebrand ment by Simonie 437 The Princes consent for placing of Bishops was no simony 437 The Pope sought vniust quarels against Henry the fourth 438 The prince not bouÌ„d to the popes penaunces 440 Hildebrands successe 441 Hildebrand the first that offered depriuation to Princes 441 The Romish art to weary princes 442 The â—on dâ—splaceth the father 443 Hildebrand and Boleslaus 444 Princes not punishable by Priests 445. Adrian Frederick the first 446 Fredericâ—s aunswer to the Popes letter â— 447 Adrian conspireth against Frederick 447 The Pope conspireth against the Emperour 448 Alexander made Pope by the coÌ„spirators against Victor 449 Alexanders election not good 450 Frederick tyred by the Popes practises 451 The Popes foote in the Princes neck 451 Honorius Frederick the 2. 452 The Popes quarrels against Frederick the second 453 The lewdnes of Gregorie the 9. against Frederick the secoÌ„d 454 The Italian stories spitefully pursue those Princesse that withstood the Pope 456 Fredericks peace with the Turke could not iustly be disliked 457 The Pope hath beene the ruine of both Empires 458 The Pope crossigned Souldiers against Frederick as against a Turke 459 The second quarrell between Frederick and the Bishop of Rome 460 The Pope nourisheth rebellion against Frederick 461 And to help the matter deposeth him 462 The causes of his deposition examined 462 The censure of Innocentius against Frederick 463 Fredericks right to the kingdome of Sicily 464 The Popes proceedinges against Frederick 465 The whole west Church in an vproare about the deposing of Princes 466 Eberhards oration against the Pope for presuming to depose Princes 467 Frederick poisoned and stifled in his bed 468 Lodouike the fourth and Iohn the 22. 469 Germany taketh part with Lodouike against Pope Iohn 470 The Pope maketh it heresie to mislike his pride or his wealth 471 What submisâ—ion the Pope required of Lodouike 472 The Germanes sweare obedience to Lodouike for all his deposition 473 King Iohn of this Realme 474 King Iohn pursued by the pope for standing in his owne right 475 To interdict whole Realmes for one mans offence is vnchristian policy 476 The Byshops of England eger to haue King Iohn deposed 477 The discord of Princes exalted the Pope 478 The french King finely cousened by the Pope 478 King Iohn the Popes farmor 479 King Iohn could not bind his successour 479 The Nobles lament the seruitude of this Realme 480 George King of Bohemia molested by the Popes censures 481 Half the kingdom of Nauarre surprised by the Spanish King 482 Thomas Becket an arrogant resister of his Prince 483 Princes brought vnder the Popes feet by their own dissension 484 The Kings of France ouerreached the Pope 485 The stirre betweene Philip of Sweueland Otho the 5. 486 The Emperour taketh his farewel of Italy by selling al he had both there and elsewhere 487 These tragicall vprores prooue no right in the Pope to depose Princes 488 The Iesuits mistake an imprecatioÌ„ in Gregory for a depriuatioÌ„ 489 The Realme neuer conâ—esâ—ed the Popes power to depriue princes 490 Iesuits within compasse of treason by the auncient lawes of this land 491 Treason to aide the Pope against the Queene by the statute of Edward the third 492 The Commons â—ide their King against the Pope 493 The King of Englands othe 493 The Patriarches of Constantinople deposed no Princes 494 The people might couenaunt in their elections 494 Zimisces an vsurper a murderer 496 A seditious Patriarck liuing at the same time with Hildebrand 497 Baptisme bindeth no Prince to the â—opes depriuation 498 Byshops may not prescribe conditions to Princes 498 They haue no power to prescribe conditions to Princes 499 Princes not depriuable by the Pope 500 Wicked reasons of the Iesuits for the depriuing of Princes 501 Christians may not kill tyrantes though Heathens did so 502 The Pope his Cardinals woorse than Heathen 503 The Cardinals letter for the killing of the Queene 503 Murdering of princes mainteined by the Iesuits 504 The princes life is sought for by their warres for religion 505 Obedience to Christ forceth vs to no rebellion against the prince 506. Princes appoint paines for others not for themselues 507 Caluins name falsely pretended for rebellioÌ„ against princes 509 Beza doth not allowe subiects to displace their prince 510 The Nobles of Fraunce might lawfullie defend themselues against the Guise 511 Pâ—iuate men may not beare arms against a tyrant 512 Zuinglius woordes concerne not our case 513 Zuinglius aloweth no man to vse violence to tyrants 514 Succession established by God himselfe 515 Goodman and Knokes 516 Luther did not alow rebellion against Princes 517 The Germanes no Rebels in desending their libertie 518 The Iesuits case not like the Germanes 518 The Iesuits obiect they care not what 519 The lawes sometimes permit resistaunce 520 The stirres of Germany Flaunders Fraunce Scotland 521 The manifold rebellioÌ„s of papists 522 The Iesuits treasons 522 Complaint of persecution 522 Treason made religion by the Iesuits 523 Deposition of Princes is against religion 524 Pastours haue no power to compell 526 Death inflicted in England not for religion but rebellion 527 The power which the Pope claimeth is no point of religioÌ„ 528 Peters keyes abused to colour the Popes tyranny 529 Supreme heade misliked by some of the Germans 530 Supreme head mistaken by wrong information 631 Supreme head not vrged by vs. 532 The Magistrate no gouernour of the conscience 533 Where God commaundeth there no authorite wanteth 534 Trueth is authoritie sufficient against all the world 535 One man with trueth is a warrant against all the world 536.
not supreme ouer them Atha sought to the west Emperour and to al the west Bishops that his cause might be heard in a Councel Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15. Athanasius cause intimated to al the west Bishops Iulius had the consent of both parts that a councel should be called Athanas. eadem Apolog. Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 11. Episto Iulij ad eos qui ex Antiochia scripserunt citatur ab Athanasio Apologia 2. Iulius pretendeth not Peters keyes for his authority This spirit differeth much from the late spirit of Rome Idem in Epist. Iudij Athana Apologia 2. Athana heard and restored by a councel The councel willed Iulius to write in his own name because the Arrians wrate to him and not to them Idem in Epist. Iulij Iulius claimeth an equalitie with the East Bishops no supremacie ouer them Ibidem in Episto Iulij They should haue written to all the west Bishops not to the Bishop of Rome alone Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15. Idem lib. 3. Cap. 17. In Epist. Iulij By reason his place was first and after to the rest Sozomen lib. 3. Cap. 10. In weightie matters the consent of al the Patriarks was to be required In Epistola Iulij Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 17. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 10. The deposition of Athanasius a matter of great weight Euseb. lib. 7. Cap. 30. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 7. The Arrians sought by deposing him to posses the East Church Iulius when he coulde doe no good in Athanasius cause besought the west Emperor to put to his helping hand Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 10. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 11. Athanasius with teares requesteth a councel of the west Emperour Theodoret. lib. 2. Cap. 4. Socra lib. 2. Cap. 20. The Emperours letters for Athanasius restitution Ambros. de incarnatio Domin sacrament Cap. 5. Cyprian sermo 5. de lapsâ— What Chrysostome requested of Innocentius The Bishops of the west Church were to consent before the sentence could be giuen Chrysost. Episto 1. ad Innocent tomo 5. Chrysost. vt supra Eadem episto ad Innocentium Chrysost. maketh this petition to all the west Bishops Ibidem A verbe of the singular number thrust in among verbes of the plural to claw the Bishop of Rome Theodores lib. 5. Cap. 34. A bul absurdly forged to make men beleeue the Pope did excoÌ„municate the Emperour for Chrysost. banishment Nicepho lib. 13. Cap. 34. Cronologia Canisij The Bull proued to be forged Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. The first yere of Chrysost banishment Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 19. The same yeare the Empresse died Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 20. The second yeare of his banishment Eodem Capite The third yeare Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. The fourth yeare Chryso himselfe died Sozome lib. 8. cap. 27. 28. The Bull supposeth the Empresse to be liuing after Chrysostoms death Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 34. A blind Prophet to threaten that shee should shortly die which was dead foure yeares before Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 28. Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 33. Chrysostom appealed not to the Bishop of Rome but to a Councel Socra lib. 6. Cap. 15. Episto 1. ad Innocentium Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 28. Ibidem The Popes legates sent awaie with reproch They were punished by the Princes law that did communicate with the Bishop of Rome Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 30. Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 24. Theodoret. lib. 5. Cap. 34. Chrysost. enemies were men of good accompt in the church Socrat. lib. 7. Cap. 2. Theodor. lib. 5. Cap. 35. Epistola 1. ad Innocentium Socrat. li. 6. Cap. 23. â—eo Epist. 64. 69. Niceph. lib. 14. Cap. 27. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. Chrysost. very passionate Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. What help Saint Austen and others sought of Innocentius Inter August Epist. 90. They requested Innocentius to concur with them in the condemnation of Pelagianisme Idem Epist. 90. Inter August Epist. 93. The Bishops of Rome will quickly take enough vpon them What is ment by referring matters to Peter Censura in Epist 90. 93. Basill wrote to the West Bishops in generall but neuer to the Bishop of Rome The end why the East Bishops sought to the West Basilij epistola 48. ad Athan. Basilij Epist. 61. occidentalibus frasribus Basilij Epist. 69 Italicis ac Galliâ— Basilij epist. 70. Galliae Italiae episc Marke what thinges Basill requested of the West Bishops Basilij epist. 74. occidentalibus episc The greater number and the further off the lesse suspected of the people Ibidem Basilij epist. 52. ad AthanasiuÌ„ The Bishop of Rome might counsell but not coÌ„maund Why Basill required messengers from the West patriarke Basil epist. 52. Ibidem S. Hierom coÌ„sulting Damasus Hiero. Damas. Episto tom 2. Ibidem Epist. sequent ad Damasum Epist. ad Damasum prior S. Hierom preferreth the West Church before the East as more syncere in faith and not Rome before all the world Ibidem S. Hierom sought no resolution in faith at Damasus mouth but letters to keepe him froÌ„ trouble in a strange place Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem Epist. ad Damasum Super illam Petram in HieroÌ„ stand fitter to be referred to Christ than to Peter Hieron ad Marcellum aduersus Montanum tomo epi. 2. Vpon this rocke diuersly expounded of the fathers Aug. de verbis Domini secundum Mat. serm 13. The Church built on none but on Christ. Hilar. de Trin. lib. 2. Ibidem lib. 6. Ambros. in 2. cap. Epist. ad Ephesioâ— Idem de incarnat Dominici sacrament cap. 5. Chrysost. homil 55. in Matth. Bede in cap. 21. Iohannis 1. Cor. 3. Peter laide in the foundation of the Church as a principal meÌ„ber thereof Origen in 16. Mat. tract 1. Hieron lib. 1. aduersus Iâ—uiniaman Ephes. 2. Galat. 2. Neither of these constructions make for the church of Rome Tertul. de praescription Cyprian lib. 1. Epi. 3. Ad Marcellum tomo epistolaruÌ„ 2. Testimonia Hieron Damas. quoniaÌ„ vetusto tomo 2. The house of God is the Church of God and not the Church of Rome What S. Augustine meaneth by Peters seat Aug. in Psalm contra partem Donati From not in Peters seat Why may not ipsa est Petra be referred to Peters person as well as super hanc Petram in the Gospel as the Iesuits would haue it Cyprian de vnitate Reclesiae Catholicae S. Cyprian lately falsified by the papists A Canon of Bruges with his blind CaÌ„bron copie hath inlarged CypriaÌ„s text against all the copies of christendom Either the Cambron copie or all the written copies in the world must be corrupted which of these twaine thinke you do the Iesuits chose Distinct. 39. qui cathedram Gratian lately augmented as well as Cyprian Caus. 24 quaest 1. loquitur Dominus ad Petrium This place was not in the auncient decrees Glos ibidem qui CathedraÌ„ The glosse lately forged as wel as Gratians text And al this to make CypriaÌ„ speake cleane contrarie to himself within the compasse of eight lines Cyprian de
vmitate Ecclesiae Peter the first stone that Christ laid in the foundatioÌ„ of his church Cyprian de vmitate Ecclesiae Exordium and fundamentum all one Peter at this day lieth in the foundation of the church where Christ placed him Galat. 4. Ephes. 2. Heb. 12. Chalcedonens concilij actio 1. Leo tooke Theodoretes part against Dioscorus Euagrius lib. 1. cap. 10. Leo Epist. 61. ad TheodoretuÌ„ Chalcedonens Concilij actio 8. Their examples proue the Bishop of Rome had no such power as he now claimeth The Pope besought the Emperour with sighes teares for a Councel and could not preuaile In all these examples the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as alleadged or mentioned his vniuersall power which your Iesuites defend As the Bishop of Rome resisted others so others resisted him Who they were that resisted the Bishop of Rome Galat. 2. Ibidem Paul resisting Peter that after his installation at Rome if the Romish account be true which most men doubt Euseb. Chronic. in anno 44. Galat. 2. The Papistes make Peter a Nonresident Rhemish annor in Epi. ad Gal. cap. 2. vers 11. Whether Paul might resist Peter is an vngodly doubt Polycarpus withstood Anicetus for the obseruation of Easter Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Polycrates withstood Victor for the same cause Ibidem A great multitude of Bishops with Polycrates against Victor Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Victor reproued by his owne side for offering to excommunicate the churches of Asia that stood against him Cyprian lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cyprian Epist. ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephan CypriaÌ„s stoutnesse against Stephanus Bishop of Rome Ibidem Cyprian in an ill cause resisting the Bishop of Rome did and doth go for a Martyr and father of the church Flauianus withstood 4. Bishops of Rome though their cause were not much amisse Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 3. Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. Who tooke part with Flauianus against the Bishops of Rome The Prince willeth Flauianus to keepe his Church though foure Popes for 17. yeares togither impugned him Ibidem Ibidem Nice lib. 14. cap. 27. Cyrill esteemed not the communion of the Bishop of Rome Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 34. Those resistances were offered not by priuate persons but by Councels and Countries Euseb. lib. 5. Cap. 24. 25. Ibidem Cap. 26. Concil Cartha de haeret baptisandis inter opera Cypriani Sozome lib. 7. Cap. 11. Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. The sixt couÌ„cel of Carthage stoutly resisted the Bishop of Rome and conuinced him of forgery Vide Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 3. Bonifacius saith the diuelled Saint Augustine the rest to be sawcie with the Bishop of Rome Bonifacius secundus ad Eulalium de reconcilia Carthaginens Eccl. Concilio tomo 1. Aphric concilij Cap. 92. Appeales to Rome condemned by Saint August and his Collegues Aphric concil Cap. 101. Aphric concil Cap. 105. The fathers neuer heard of Christs vicar general Where then are appeales to Rome The holy Ghost as wel â—â— one proâ—â—ace as in 〈◊〉 The Councel of Nice corrupted by the Bishop of Rome The Popes claime called the smokie pride of the world What the Councel of Africa denied to the Bishop of Rome Was this resisted or no Epist. Aegiptiorum ad MarcuÌ„ pro exempla Niceni Concilij tomo Conciliorum 1. The Papists to saue the Popes credit haue coÌ„mitted shameful forgeries Rescriptum Iulij contra orientales pro Athanasio And he a wise man to chose the worst Episto Africani conci ad Bonif. Cap. 101. No decretals can discredit the diligence of the African Bishops Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 9. Concilij Afric Cap. 102. 103. Their Decretales are too yong to out-face the authenticke copies Ruffin lib. 1. Cap. 6. The Popes silence then conuinceth this forgerie since Marke the likelihoode of this fable and see the shamefastnes of Papists that mocke the worlde with them Extat Socratis lib. 1. Cap. 9. The Canons burnt before they were made Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 17. Beda distinc 16. sexta Sozom. lib. 3. Cap. 1. Athanas. not neere Aegypt when this letter was written thence in his name Rescriptuuâ— Marci Athanasio Aegyptijs Vide Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 25. 28. Concil Africa Cap. 102. An other forgerie vnder Iulius name worse than the former Rescript Iulij ad Orientales Cap. 29. The Papists haue forged a decretal in Iulius name where as his true letter is extant in Athanasius Apologie Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 40. A man may feele this forgerie with his fingers Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 5. Athanasij Apologia 2. The first dated Calend. Octobris the second calend Nouembris the same yeare Euagâ— li. 1. ca. 4. Theodoret against the Popes deputy The Legats of Rome threatned by the first Ephesine Councel In Apologet. Cyril mandatuÌ„ Synod Ephesâ— Vide concilij Chalcedonens actioneÌ„ 16. The great councel of Chalcedon ouerruleth the Bishop of Rome Actio 16 concil Chalcedonen The Popes Legates could not then commaund in general couÌ„cels The Councel of Chalcedon proceeding without the Romish Legates Chalcedo CoÌ„cil cano 28. actio 15. repetitur actio 16. For what cause Rome had the supremacie giuen her Why Leo was so earnest against this Canon The Romish Legates their allegations reiected the second time in the Councel of Chalcedon EiusdeÌ„ Concilij â—câ—io 16. The selfsame priuileges that Rome had giuen to Constantinople The Pope had no negatiue in Councels Canons made in Counceles mauger the Bishop of Rome his legates Liberatus Cap. 13. Concilij sexti Constantinop Cap. 36. How the Popes law vseth ancient customes Distinct. 22. Renouantes A monsterous corruption of a councel turning an affirmatiue into a negatiue Africani concil Cap. 92. The Canon law glozeth the Councell of African quite against the text Caus. 2. quaest 6. placuit Saint Austen forged to make the Popes decretals of equall authoritie with the scriptures De doctrina Christiana lib. 2. Cap. 8. Distinct. 19. In canonicis Rubricae Ibidem Glosa Ibidem The britanes 4000 yeare agoe woulde yeelde no subiection to the Popes legate Beda lib. 2. Cap. 2. Bed histo gentis Anglorum lib. 2. Cap. 2. Galfrid monemutens lib. 8. Cap. 4. 1200 monks in one time chose rather to die than to be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Concili Laterae sub Innocentio 3 Cap. 4 The Grecians detesting the Bishop of Rome Paul Aemil. in Philippo 4. Idem Aeneas Syluius lib. 9. epitomes in decades Blondi Sessio vltima Florentiae in literis vnionis Graecorum responsio in vltima sessione Florentiae Platina in Eugenio 4. Luitprand li. 6. Cap. 10. Ibidem Cap. 7. The germans against the Bishop of Rome Platina in Gregorio 6. Cronicon Abba Vrspergensis Ibidem anno 1080. This was he that first ventred to depose Princes Ibidem anno 1083. The Romans reiected him as wel as the Germans did Platina in Gregorio 7. The later Italians make Hildebrand a Sainct for
his presumption against the Emperour Beno Cardinal de vita gestis Hildebrandi Sigibertus in anno 1084. Platina in Gregori 12. The general Councel of Pisa deposed two Popes Idem in Alexandro 5. Concil Constantiensis sessio 1. Their church allowed the Councel of Pisa for sacred and generall Laziardi historiae vniuersalis epitome ca. 267. Iohannes Nauclerus in anno 1408. Two Popes condēned by the councell of Pisa for heretikes and schismatikes Ibidem The Cardinals conclude it lawful for them to cal a Coūcel without the Pope and if neede be to depose hym The Councel of Constance deposed three Popes Constantiensis Con cilij sessio 1. Sessione 3. Sessione 10. 12. Sessione 37. The Pope cōdemned for an incorrigible heretike schismatike Sessio 4. 5. Sessio 3. Sessio 4. 5. Their owne Church hath allowed and honored these Councels Constantiensis Synodi sessio 4. The Pope boūd to obey his own councels Sessione 5. Ibidem Sessio 10. Pope Iohn suspended for his Popedome Sessio 12. Sententia definitiua contra Iohannem Papam 23. The Pope solemnly depriued Not lōg since the Pope was subiect to Councels by the confessiō of their owne Church and now he wil be Lord ouer them In Ioan. 24. it should be 23. To quarell with Pope Iohns electiō is to no purpose Pope Iohn when he sawe no remedie submitted himselfe to their wils but did not autorize them to bee his iudges Nauclerus in anno 1415. Vide Constan. Synodi sessionē 11. The Councel grounded themselues neither on Pope Iohns permission nor submissiō but on their owne power proofes Basiliensis concilij sessio 33. The Councel of Basill against the Pope The Cardinals and the Bishops began to be so busie with the Pope that the Church of Rome is forced to renounce hir owne Councels Platina in Eugenio 4. Eugenius forced to allow the Councell of Basill by reason of the number that tooke part with the Synode Basiliensis concilij sessio 16. Eugenius bull for the confirmation of that councel The Bull of Nicolaus the 5. for the like purpose Bulla Nicolai 5. super approbatione actorū gest in concil Basiliensi A Councell might then commaund correct and depose the Pope now they will be obeied aboue and against Councels The Pope in the midst of his pride resisted by his owne crew The Diuines of Paris condemned Pope Iohns doctrine with the sound of trumpets Gerson serm in festo Paschae reperitur in 4. parte operum Iohannes Marius de schism concil cap. 2◠Laziard Epitom cap. 267. Ioan. Marius cap. 22. The French king dischargeth his realm from the Popes obedience Naucler generatio 48. circae annū 1438. The Pragmaticall sanctiō maintained in Fraunce an 100. yeares against the Pope Robertus Guaguinus in Caro. 7. Ludouic Pio 2. inter Epist. Aeneae Syluij Epi. 388. Guaguinus in Ludouic 11. The Bishops of Fraunce the vniuersity of Paris withstod the Pope labouring to abrogate the pragmaticall sanction Ibidem Lateranensis Concil sub Leo. 10. Sess. 11. in bulla quae incipit primitiua Fiue Popes before Leo had labored in vaine against that law Appellatio vniuersitatis Parisien repevitur in fasciculo rerum expetendarum Paris appealeth from the Pope The Pope may lawfully be resisted The French king cōmaunded the Pragmatical sanction to be obserued in his Realme whether the Pope would or no. The Diuines of Paris denie the Popes assembly to haue the holy Ghost Cronicon Massaei in anno 1510. The French Bishops resolue their king that the Pope might be forsaken his censures neglected Adagiorum Chiliadis 2. cēturia 5. adag 10. King Philip of Fraunce vsed the Pope in his kinde Laziardus historiae vniuersalis epitom ca. 247. The Pope claimed to be the depriuer of Princes The king refuteth the Popes claime The French king promiseth to defend the libertie of his land against the Pope The Realm of Fraunce conclude the Pope ought not to obeied Thomas Walsingham in Edwardo 1. anno 2304. The French king would suffer none of his lande to go or send to Rome Sabell Enneadis 9. lib. 7. Platina in Bonifacio 8. AEmylius in Philippo 4. The auncient lawes of this Realme are against resorting and appealing to Rome Math. Paris in Guilielmo 2. anno 1094. 500. yeares agoe no Bishop of this Lande subiect to the Pope Ibidem Anselm Epist. 36. ad Paschalem Was this Land then thinke you subiect to the Pope Math. Paris in Henrico 1. anno 1104. The two Archbishops banished for resorting to the Pope Idem anno 1119. Mat. Paris in Henrico 2. anno 1164. The lawes stood in full force an 100. yeares after the conquest Ibidem The Iesuites departing this Realme is against the ancient lawes of the same Appeales to Rome prohibited by the old Lawes of this Realme An oth taken to obserue the same Ibidem Thomas of Canterburie made a sainct for resisting his Prince Mat. Paris Ibidem Thomas Becket the first that impugned the liberty of this realme The Archbishop standeth against the king in defence of theeues and murtherers The fine shift of a rebell to saue himselfe The Monke fauoreth the rebellion of the Bishop The dutifulnesse of Thomas Becket Gulielm Neubrigensis rerum Ang. lib. 2. cap. 16. This is the libertie of the◠church which Becket striued for with the king Mat. Paris in Henri 2. eodem anno King Henrie the second against the Pope Appeales to Rome againe prohibited In quadrilogo Treason to bring an interdict from Rome Mat. Paris vt supra Not lawfull to depart the Realme without the kings letters Banishment to regard the Popes Bul interdicting this Land Mat. Paris in Henrico 2. anno 1167. The Pope 400 yeares ago abetted traitours against the king The king voweth openly to impugne the Pope and all his Math. Paris i◠anno 1173. This was one of the Popes common practises Math. Paris in vita Iohannis anno 1212. Anno 1213. The barons of this realme pursued the king in cōtēpt of the Pope Anno 1216. Be not these two lawes ancient that be as old as the conquest Polydorus Virgilius in Eduar 3. The Pope would faine haue preuailed against the statute of premunire could not Ibidem In loco supra citato Polydor. in Richard 2. anno 1391. No person might procure or execute any censure frō Rome Ex Richardo 2. anno 13. Richard the 2. made it death to bring any summons or sentence from Rome Princes may resist the pope in their Parliaments as wel as Bishops in their Synods They resisted him for the regiment of their Realme not for the faith of christ Many things to be proued which are starke false before the supremacie will follow They must flatter the Pope that liue of his almes as you do Apolog. Cap. 2. Ibidem Praefat. lib. 2. in episto ad Gal. Esa. 1. Nahum 3. Rome is not that it was Rome chainged Mantuanus Syluarum lib. 1. Math. Paris in Henrico 2. sub anno 1169. Idem
con 1. * The Pope maketh a supplication to the Prince for a law to punish ambition in getting the Popedom Leo epist. 9. The Pope maketh supplication to the Prince for a Councell missed his sute Leo. Epist. 12. Idem Epist. 13. Idem Epist. 17. Idem Epist. 24. The Pope with sighes teares sueth for a generall Councell to the Prince was repelled Leo Epist. 26. The Pope desireth a gentle woman to further his sute to the Prince Idem Epist. 23. The Pope praieth others to helpe him with putting vp a supplication to the Prince for a Councell If the Bishop of Rome might then haue commaÌ„ded why did he intreate with teares yet misse his purpose Epist. 43. The Pope a fresh suter to the next Emperour Idem Epist. 50. Epist. 43. The Pope beseecheth the Prince by his royall decree to voide the Councell of Ephesus and to commaund the Councell of Chalcedon not to depart from the Nicene faith Concil Chalced. actio 1. Leo â—pist 59. The Pope must obey the Princes will in subscribing to the decrees of the Councell Nouell constit 123. IustiniaÌ„ commaundeth the Patriarkes namely the Bishoppe of Rome for Ecclesiasticall affaires * Ibidem Ibidem The Prince inflicteth depriuation for the breach of his Ecclesiasticall lawes Gregories submission to Mauritius in causes Ecclesiasticall Greg. Epi. lib. 2. cap. 100. Ecclesiasticall Lawes made by the Prince without the Popes knowledge against his liking How far was this man from deposing Princes The Pope subiect to the Princes commaundement sendeth the princes precept throughout his prouince The Pope of duetie yeeldeth obedieÌ„ce to his Prince The Pope the Princes seruaÌ„t by publike right He confesseth the Prince to be Lord ouer all Idem Epist. lib. 4. cap. 74. The Prince commaunded the Bishop of Rome to be at peace with the Bishop of Constantinople Idem Epist. lib. 4. cap. 76. The Pope redy to obey the Princes commaundement Idem Epist. lib. 4. cap. 78. The Pope submitting himselfe to the Princes pleasure in causes ecclesiasticall The Pope ouerruled in his consistorie with the princes precept Sextae Synod act 4. The Popes obedience to the Emperour was no curtesie but duetie Sext. Synod act 4. Agathonis Epist. 2. All the Bishops of the North and West partes seruants to the Emperour as well as they of the East Distinct. 10. ca. de capitulis The Pope professeth 850. yeares after Christ that he will inuiolably keepe the Princes ecclesiastical chapters lawes How farre the Pope was theÌ„ from the superioritie which he nowe claimeth ouer Princes * August contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. The Iesuites cauils against the Princes soueraigntie Ieremies wordes conclude nothing for the Pope Ieremie appointed a Prophet ouer nations Ierem. 1. Ierem. 1. Theodor. in 1. cap. Ierem. Bernard considerat lib. 2. Lyra in 1. cap. Ierem. Lyra in 1. cap. Ierem. Hieron in 1. ca. Ierem. Grego Pastoral part 3. admonitio 35. Hieron in 1. cap. Ierem. 1. Tim. 6. Reuel 19. Dan. 4. Reuel 17. Esai 6. Esaie maketh not the prince subiect to the Pope Hieron in 60. cap. Esai Esai 60. Esai 49. Esai 60. Hieron in Esai cap. 60. Euerie member of Christs church hath as good interest in Esaies wordes as the Pope Princes shall serue thee that is euerie part of thee or the noblest part of thee neither of which maketh for the Pope Princes may serue none but Christ. Psalm 2. Matth. 4. Philip. 2. Heb. 1. Colos. 1. An allegoricall text yeeldeth no literall conclusioÌ„ Esai 60. Esai 60. What it is for Princes to serue and submit themselues to the church Aug. contr lit Petilian lib. 2. cap. 92. Idem contr 2. Gauden Epist. lib. 2. cap. 26. Heb. 13. Obey your rulers as well all as one The Iesuites windlace to bring the Prince in subiection to the Pope Heb. 13. Heb. 13. The words of S. Paul obey your rulers make nothing for the Pope Heb. 13. 2. Cor. 4. 2. Corin. 1. Mark 10. Act. 20. Bishops are set in the Church by the holy ghost to feede not to rule Regère applied to Bishops is to rule ang gouerne with aduise couÌ„cell not with power and dominion S. Pauls words haue no relation to the Popes person nor to that kinde of rule which he claimeth They pretend the Church when they meane the Pope Esai 60. Ibidem The cunning of their Apologie Apolog. cap. 4. The Prince is supreme though the Church bee superiour Howe the Church is superiour to the Prince The Saintes in heauen bee part of the church Ephe. 2. Galat. 4. Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 10. cap. 7. Aug. in Psalm 149. Idem de ciuit Dei lib. 20. cap. 9. 1. Cor. 10. In the name of the Church are many things contained Ambros. de incarnat Domin sacra cap. 5. August quaest super Leuit. lib. 3. cap. 57. Idem de catechizan rudibus cap. 3. Persons are not the church without other things annexed to them * Galat. 3. Hebre 13. Rom. 8. Rom. 8. Ambro. Epist. lib. 5. oratio contra Auxentium August epist. 157. The Church is sometimes taken for the place Idem quaest sup Leuitâ— â—â— 3 cap 57. Idem in psal 137. Sometimes for the persoÌ„s Idem in Euchivid Cap. 56. The Church of all the chosen men and Angels Ibidem August de Catechiz vudibus Cap. 3. Idem in Psal. 62. The Church is the number of the faithful that euer were aâ—e or shal be * Idem in Psal. 90. concio 2. The church is the number of particular men in seueral times and places August de vnitate eccles cap. 11. Idem in Psal. 64 121. Rom. 14. Mat. 21. 1. Tim. 3. August de verbis Apostoli sermo 22. That which entereth the definition must nedes be coÌ„tained in the appellation of the Church August epist. 38. Idem de baptis lib. 1. cap. 10. Idem in Psal. 57. 30. Idem epist. 203. Ambros. in psal 118. sermo 15. Idem in psal 36. 1. Tim. 3. Ambros. oratio contra Auxent The Prince not aboue the Church though superiour to al persons in the Church Mat. 22. What things Princes haue neither right to coÌ„maund nor power to rule See fol. 147. Mat. 20. Princes are aboue al persons but not aboue the Church Ergo the Church is taken for more than for persons Ambros. lib. 5. Cap. 33. Ambros. de obitu Theodosij Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 30. Epist. 33. ad Sororem Ibidem The Iesuits nippe saint Ambroses wordes Ambros. lib. 1. epist 32. We make no Prince iudge of faith Wherin Saint Ambrose withstood Valentinian The reasons why S. Ambr. refused Valentinians iudgement as neither fit nor indifferent Ambros. lib. 5. orat contra Auxentium Idem lib. 5. epist. 32. Ibidem Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 33. Ambrose would not yeeld his consent to let the Arrians haue his Church Idem orat contra Auxent Ibidem IbideÌ„ epist. 32. Ibidem orat contra Auxent Ambrose resisted not the Prince but denied his consent to part
to the ministers of the word and Sacramentes Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 21. God hath alreadie by his law prescribed which way he wil be serued that Princes may and must command in their realms though the Pope say nay Princes be not supreme to do what they list in religion but only free from the Popes iurisdiction The feare of God and not the practises of Popes must keepe Princes from doing euill The other toucheth our duetie to the Prince not the Princes duety vnto God The Prince beareth the sword vnder and not aboue God Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. The spirituall regiment of the soule is properlie Christes and not the piests The Preachers functioÌ„ excelleth the Princes in perfection comfort but not in power to commaund or meanes to compell The same god forceth by the Princes sword that teacheth by the preachers mouth * Iohn 3. * Heb. 12. The kingdom is not aboue the Church though the Prince punish wicked priests The true sheepeheard is only Christâ— the rest are his seruantes and not the owners of the sheepe * 1. Pet. 5. Princes in their vocatioÌ„ be shepheards and beare the staffe to compel where the voice will not serue 1. Chron. 11. Psal. 78. The Prince is bound to obey the preachers worde if he speak truth and so is the Preacher bound to obey the Princes Lawes if they be good 1. Thes. 4. Aug. Epist 166. Princes be no iudges of Religion S. Cyprians words alleadged without his meaning Cypr. lib. 1. Ep. 3 Cyprian allowed the people to reiect their Bishop if hee were vnworthy Lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cypr. lib. 1. ep 4. Though the Bishop of Rome tooke his part Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. The Prince not free from Christes Preceptes Princes must hear the word and receiue the Sacraments in such sort as God hath appointed The Preacher is prescribed how he shall minister the Sacramentes not how hee shall depose Princes We deny this argument Excommunication made a wrest to lift Princes out of their seates The seruant must not thinke himselfe superiour to all that his master may commaund In vaine seeke they reasons to make the Priest superiour to the Prince whom God himselfe hath made subiect to the Prince Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 23. They harp on Christs priesthoode as if they were Christes own fellowes in his priestly dignitie Christ hath no higher title than the king of glorie and Prince of the world to come Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The communion of Saints consisteth not in obedience to the Pope Nor in externall rites and ceremonies The true communion of the church The communion of the Church not dissolued by the varietie of rites Epist. 118. Euseb. lib. 5. câ— 26. Ibidem Euseb. lib. 5. ca. 23. The Church from the beginning had diuersitie of rites Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Heb. 12. Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The Popes pride first decaied the West Churches Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 13. A number of watchmen in the Church better than one Apol. chap. 4. sect 24. Vsurpers and forrainers The Iesuits cauill at the word Forrainer God is no forrainer to men Soules in heauen be no forrainers Soules in heauen exercise no iurisdictioÌ„ ecclesiasticall nor spirituall on earth Apol. Cap. 4. sect 24. Princes beare the sword in these causes to see that permitted and defended in their realms which Christ commanded None but Princes can giue freedom and protectioÌ„ to these spiritual functions and actions Apolog. Cap. 4. Sect. 25. Generall couÌ„cels were woÌ„t to be assistaÌ„ts vnto Princes not tribunals aboue princes A generall councel must haue the consent of al christian couÌ„tries The late councel of Trent a mere factioÌ„ of the Popes sworne to take his part and content to refer all things to his power Concil Triden Sess. 25. decres de reformatione cap. 21. Item Sess. 7. Such wronges were neuer offered in the Councell of ancient times The Prince for 1200. yeres called general Councels and not the Pope The poore Friers were 18 yeares disputing whether the Pope and his Cardinals were conspiring against the godly Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 25. We yeld more subiection to Christ his Apostles than they do The Apostles we reuereÌ„ce obey as the messengers of Christ. Distinct. 34. ¶ Lector caus 15. q. 6. ¶ autoritate in gloss Pig Hierar lib. 1. cap. 2. 1. Thes. 2. 1. Thes. 2. Râ—m 1. We owe communion not subiection vnto Councels Reuelat. 22. Cypr. ad Quirinum Peter claimed no subiection to his tribunall In sententijs Concilij Cartha The Popes councels are tyrannicall Many before vs haue refused forraigne tribunall Cypr. in sententijs Concil Car. Ibidem Ibidem Polycrates Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Augustine Concil African cap. 29. Concil African cap. 105. The Britons Gaâ—frid Monemutens lib. 8. ca. 4. Lib. 7. indict 1. Epist. 30. This Bishop of Rome claimed no Tribunall ouer other countries Greg. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. No Tribunall ouer the whole church but onelie Christ. Gregor lib. 6. Epist. 24. The Popes Tribunall made him first forget both God man A Tribunal fit for the diuell him selfe Distict 40. ¶ Non nos glos ibideÌ„ ¶ quis enim Caus. 17. quaest 4. ¶ Si quis Sacrilege to doubt of the Popes fact or dispute of his iudgement Distinct. 19. ¶ Sic omnes Distinct. 22. ¶ Omnes Heresie to mutter against the Popes pride Extrau Iohan 22. ¶ cum inter nonnullos glos ibide◠¶ declaramus Extra Iohan. 22 ¶ quia quondaÌ„ glos ¶ non vt Papa Extrau communium de maioritate obedient ¶ Vnam sanctam Manicheisme and Paganism not to obey the Popes worde Distinct. 81. ¶ Si qui sunt What saide Samuell more of God than the Pope here applieth to himselfe Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ violateres Ibidem glos ¶ Blaspheâ—aâ—e Cans 25. quaest 1. ¶ ideo permittente Ibidem No canons but what the Pope maketh or alloweth Ibidem Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ generali A breach of the faith to violate the popes decrees 1. Corinth 16. Distinct. 40. ¶ â—i Papa No man must finde fault with the Pope for leading men to hel by heapes Contra 2. Gaudentij Epist. lib. â— cap. 25. The Pope not Patriark ouer England Patriarks not erected by Christ but by consent of Bishops Hiero. in epist. ad Tit. cap. 1. Ibidem Hiero. Euagâ— tom epist. 2. Ibidem Hierom. IbideÌ„ The Patriarks grew by consent and custome Concil Nicen. Cap. 6. Concil Ephes. 1. Decretum postquaÌ„ Cypr. episc accessissent ad concil Patriarks alwayes subiect to Princes their ecclesiastical lawes Concil Chalced. actio 16. Nouel constit 131. Princes gaue Bishops their prerogatiues ouer others Constit. 123. The Prince coÌ„maunded the Patriarks by name This Realme not in the Popes ancient Prouince Inter August epist. 95. IbideÌ„ epist. 96. Beda hist. gentis Angler lib. 2. Câ— 2. The Pope affecting to be Christs vicar neglected his Patriaâ—kdom The Kings of this land
The Popes power ouer Princes vsurped Rom. 13. Supreme is a manifest deduction out of S. Paul Supreme ouer Persons not ouer things We may not limit where we will obey the sword where not Where they may commaund we must obey We may not resist them but with reuerence indure them though they coÌ„mand against God and his truth Heathen Tyraunts had power of the sword ouer Christ and his Apostles Christ submitted himselfe to the Magistrate So Paul Peter both did and taught 1. Pet. 4. Rom. 13. Whom we must indure in that which is euill those must we obey in that which is good Aug. Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 166. The summe of the doctrine which we teach concerning the Princes supremacie The Iesuites iestes wherewith they mocke the Reader THE DIRECTION of PRINCES VNTO TRVETH Princes must take good care to come by faithfull direction The right directors vnto truth must be discerned by their doctrine not by their dignitie No mortall man may Iohn 14. 1. Iohn 5. * Iohn 5. 8. De Nuptijs ad Valentin lib. 2. â—ap 33. Optat. lib. 5. ad â—ermenianum Iohn 17. Bishops no iudges of the word of God The church is not iudge of the Scriptures Iohn 10. * Iames 4. Aust. in Psal. 2. * Idem de vera religione ca. 31. * Idem confess lib. 13. cap. 23. * Contra Cresc lib. 2. cap. 31. Idem Epist. 19. ad Hieronym Iudging taken for discerning Onely God must limit what is truth what error To discerne truth belongeth to all God willeth all men to trie spirites 1. Iohn 4. Matth. 7. And to discerne false teachers Iohn 10. The people must discerne teachers by their doctrine 1. Corinth 10. 1. Corinth 11. * Matth. 24. Colos. 8. Ephes. 5. 1. Iohn 3. * Heb. 5. 1. Corinth 14. Orig in Jeâ—â—â— Naue hom 2. The Fathers referred them selues to the iudgement of the hearers Ambros. Epi. li. 5. orat in Aux Luke 10. Matt. 10. The people haue libertie to discerne and charge to beware seducers Matth. 24. Matth. 23. The people not bound to beleeue the Pharisees doctrine except it accorded to the law of God Aug. in Iohan. tractat 46. Matth. 16. Ibidem vers 11â— 1. Iohn 4. 1. Thes. 5. Rom. 12. Philip. 1. 1. Corinth 2. The whole Scriptures giue the people leaue to discerne the truth and require them so to do Princes haue the same libertie to discerne trie spirites that priuate men haue The former precepts comprise the Prince aswell as the people Heb. 13. Vers. 7. No man bouÌ„d to the Preacher farther than he speaketh truth The Apostles tied to that condition 1. Pet. 1. * 1. Iohn 1. 1. Corinth 4. Galat. 1. The Angels themselues limited to that rule 1. Corinth 7. 1. Corinth 17. Chrysost. in 1. cap. 2. Epist. ad Timoth. hom 2. * Tertul. de praescript advers haereticâ—s * Chrysost. operis imperfect hom 20. in 7. ca. Mat. Much more teachers that are but seruantes of the law and therfore bouÌ„d vnto the law Princes must obey Bishops because they speak in Gods name and not in their owne Act. 20. Bishops haue commission to feede not to rule their flocks 1. Pet. 5. Iohn 21. They be superiour in teaching not in power to commaund and punish Their functioÌ„ is more perfect excellent because God worketh by their hands and mouthes Aug. contra Crescon lib. 4. cap. 6. Aug. in Psa. 10 In 1. cap. 2. epist. ad Tim. hom 2. De spiritu san lib. 3. cap. 19. 1. Corin. 1. 1. Corin. 3 The word sacramentes serue not to aduaunce the Preachers person The Preachers cal for subiection reuerence to their master not to themselues * 2. Corinth 4. * Mark 10. â— Corint 9. The trueth of God is tied to no certaine persons nor places Peters fayth is trueth in deede but that must be taken out of his owne writings not other mens reports No successour may be trusted against or besides the Apostles writings No poynt of fayth vnwritten Rom. 10. Basil. in sermone de fide Idem in Ethiciâ— definiâ— 8. Hilar. ad Constantium August Idem de Trinit lib. 9. Hieron aduersus Helnidium IdeÌ„ in Psal. 86. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haereticoâ— Idem aduersus HermogeneÌ„ Ambros. de virginibus li. 3. Ireneus lib. 3. cap. 1. Cyril de recta fide ad Reginas lib. 2. August de Pastoribus cap. 11. Idem contra literas Petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. Caus. 11. quaest 3. § si is qui preaest No person nor place may be trusted in matters of faith besides and without the scriptures The best direction for Princes is the word of God Psal. 118. Deut. 17. Deut. 12. Esai 8. Luk. 16. Hieron Cap. 1. in epist. ad Galatas Tertullian de praescriptionib Tertullian vâ— supra Heretikes therfore couet a shew of scriptures because they be the grouÌ„ds of all trueth No tribunall on earth to the which trueth is fastned Where trueth is in doubt the Church is in more doubt The shepheards voice is not knoweÌ„ by the sheepe but the sheep by hearing the sheepheards voice * Iohn 10. Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Succession is no sure direction vnto trueth Ireneus lib. 4. Cap. 43. Cap. 44. Cap. 45. Act. 20. Mat. 7. 2. Pet. 2. 2. Cor. 11. 2. Cor. 11. Bishops haue beene heretikes Bishops asseÌ„bled may erre as wel as Bishops seuered Mat. 18. Two or three haue the same promise of assistance that two or three huÌ„dred haue Councels may erre Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 5. * Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9. * Euag. li. 3. ca. 4. Epist. 55 ad Proropium A generall Councel doth not differ froÌ„ a particular but only in number of persons and places Vide distinct 16 § sexta § primo * Tomo concil primo * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 2. * Idem li. 2. c. 36. Tomo concilior primo A generall Councel erring the Church doth not erre A Councell may be reuersed by the rest that be present or absent Sozo li. 1. ca. 23. Sozo li. 2. ca. 25. Sozo li. 4. ca. 9. Leo epist. 52. ad Anatholium Ibidem Their own fellowes haue consessed that general councels might er Panor de elect electi potestate ¶ significasti Panorm IbideÌ„ A generall councel is not the Church Pigh hierarch ecclesiast lib. 6. cap. 5 4. Pighius is earnest that general CouÌ„cels haue erred in decisioÌ„ of faithes Lib. 6. Cap. 7. Lib. 6. Cap. 13. August de baptist lib. 2 cap. 3. S. Augustine confesseth that councels may erre Ibidem The second Councell of Ephesus was generall * Astio. 1. * Euagrius li. 1. Cap. 10. Reperitur chalcedonens concil actio 1. Chalced. concil actio 1. Ecclesiasticall iudges are often deceiued Contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 21. August epist. 167. August contra Maximinum lib. 3. cap. 14. Ibidem lib. 3 cap. 14. The Arrians not bound to the authoritie of the Nicene councel The Councell of Ariminum was generall Socrat. lib. 2.
Cap. 37. Ibidem epistolâ— Synodi Arimin ad Constant. Hierom. aduers. Luciferanos In the Councell of Ariminum was the communion of the whole worlde The Councell of Ariminum erred Hioron aduers. Luciferanos Hieron aduers. Luciferanoâ— Ibidem Epist. 118. Epist. 119. Onely the scriptures caâ— not erre Rom 3. Epist. 112. ad Paulin. August contra Faustum Manicheum li. 11. cap. 5. In all other writings the reader is free and not bound to beleeue them August de natura gratia contra Pelag. cap. 61. Ibidem We may iudge freely of Councels Contra FaustuÌ„ lib. 11. cap. 5. * epist. 48. * De pecca meritis remiss lib. 1. Cap. 22. * Contra Cresco lib. 2. Cap. 3.3 S. Augustine refused councels both with him and against him De vnitate ecclesiae Cap. 16. Ibidem Hilar. contra Auxentium Arrianos Princes are not bound to Councels Christ hath a vicar on earth that caÌ„ not er which is the holy Ghost Tertul. de praescriptio aduers. haereticos Idem de virginibus velandis The Pope neuer called Christs vicar but by his own flatterers The Pope may erre and can coÌ„maund neither Prince nor people The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of Luke One brother may confirme an other Psal. 51. The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Christ praied for Peter not that he should not erre but that he shuld not vtterly perish Chrysost. in Ioh. homil 72. Idem in Mat. homil 83. Beda in cap. â—2 Luce. To deny Christ is worse than to be deceiued in some point of saith 2. Peter 2. Reuelat. 2. Peter lost his faith when he denied christ Ambros. sermo 46. Idem sermo 47. The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Leo. sermo 3. in anniuersariâ— die assumptionis ad Pontificatum Leo corrupted by the Rhemists Chrysost. in Mat. homil 83. Why Christ praied for Peter by name Ibidem paulo ante Christ praied for all August quaest ex nouo TestameÌ„to quaest 75. Iohn 17. The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of Luke Iohn 16. Christs promise to al his Apostles The Rhemish Testament in the 22. of Luke Lib. q. noui Testa quaest 75. tomo 4. The wordes are inclosed with two lines in Erasmus edition not found in the old printes Praepositus Praelatus common names to all Bishops Ambros. in Psal. 43. Ibidem 1. Tim. 1. 1. Tim. 2. Philip. 1. Ambros. de dig Sacer. cap. 2. Mat. 24. Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 20. ca. 9 Idem in Iohan. tract 46. This is the Rhemists coÌ„mon vse in their TestameÌ„t tothwack in a number of Fathers names to no purpose We confesse the preachinges and writinges of Peter and all the rest after the receiuing of the holie Ghost were free from error will they claime that for the Pope The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae A noble lie of the Rhemists forced on all the Fathers with one breath Epist. 190. They say all the fathers applied this to the Pope produce none but poore Bernard Cyprian fouly wrested to make for the Pope The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae Cyp. Epi. 55. The Romanes import the people and not the Pope Rom. 1. CypriaÌ„ spake of all the Romanes not of the Bishop of Rome Rom. 1. The true meaning of Cyprian Cypr. lib. 1. Ep. 3 May not or ought not haue accesse What non poâ—est doth signifie De regulis iuris 68. In glossa In senten Conc. Carth. sentent 1. Cyprianus * Lib. 1. Epist. 3. De orat ad Att. Gen. 18. Gen. 34. Gen. 37. Gen. 44. Iudic. 11. 2. Reg. 2. 3. Reg. 2. 3. Reg. 13. Luke 11. * Luke 14. * Luke 16. * Ioan. 6. * Ioan. 7. * 1. Corinth 12. * 2. Corinth 13. * Reuel 2. Cyprians wordes haue no agreement with the Iesuites sense Cyp. lib. 1. Epi. 3. These be plainer words for the people than the former be for the Pope Cyprian affirmeth of the Bishop of Rome that he did erre Cypr. ad Pom. contr Epi. Steph Ibidem S. Paul assureth the Romane church that it might erre Rom. 11. Origen lib. 8. in cap. 11. ad Rom. The Apostle threatneth not things impossible Hierom wrested by the Iesuites as Cyprian was before The Rhemish Testament vp on the 1. to the Romanes Hieron Apoâ—â—â— aduers. Ruff. 3. The places of Scripture before alleadged if you weigh them proue al these significations The true intent of Hieroms wordes Hiero. ad Principiam Marc. Epitapha tom 1. That come to passe in Hieroms time which the Iesuites would proue to be impossible The Rhemish Testament is an heape of Fathers abused wrested to depraue the text of the holy Ghost The Iesuites reasons to make the Pope free froÌ„ error The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae Moses chaire had no such priuilege that it could not erre Deut. 17. Malach. 2. Moses chaire did erre Ierem. 18. Ezech. 7. 4. Kings 16. Esai 28. Would you haue clearer wordes that Moses chaire did erre Matth. 16. Matth. 15. Mark 7. Matth. 22. * Act. 23. * Act. 5. Rom. 3. It is presumption against God to make any man free from errour without sufficient proofe Christs promise to Peter pertaineth not to the Pope if it did it maketh him not free from errour Matth. 28. Christ is with euerie of the faithfull to the worldes end yet the faithfull may erre They euer dreame and neuer proue that the Pope is head of the church Ephes. 3. The elect may erre but not perish in their error Cyp. lib. 2. Ep. 3. Aug. Epist. 48. De Baptis lib. 4. cap. 5. Aug. de Baptis lib. 2. cap. 5. All men may erre Aug. Epist. 19. It is vngodly pride to think any man free from error Iohn 16. Ibidem The Apostles were guided by a speciall gift of Gods spirit that in preaching and writing they should not erre The Rhemish Test. 16. Iohn How handsomely the Iesuites plaie with Scriptures Iohn 16. A miter is no buckler against error Caus. 24. quaest 1. §. A recta in gloss ¶ Nouitaetibus What church can not erre That the whole church can not erre is no helpe for the Pope and his Cardinales Councels and Popes may erre though the whole church do not erre Alfon. aduers. haereses lib. 1. cap. 4. The wiser sort of Papists coÌ„demne them for flatterers that say the Pope can not erre Sub prelâ— Ascensiano anno Dom. 1534. Alfon. li. 1. ca. 4. Caâ—s 24. quaest 1. ¶ A recta in gloss De electio ¶ significasti * Lyra in ca. 16. Matth. * Aug. de Anco de potestat Ecclesiast quaest 1. * Anton. part 3. tit 22. cap. 3 ¶ 3 * In lib. de Potestat Papae citatur ab Anton. * Gerson in trac An liceat in caâ—s fidei à PoÌ„tifice appellare Concil Basilien epist. Synodalis 3. de authoritate Concil supra Papam Aen. Sylu. de gestis Conc. Basil lib. 1. Caiet de authoritate Papae Conc. cap. 26. 27.
tormented such as were excommunicated The Magistrate is Gods minister to punish the body Rom. 13. When why God suffered the Diuell to afflict offendors 1. Cor. 11. Chrysost. in 1. Tim. hom 5. Ibidem Theodoret. in 1. Cor. cap. 5. Heb. 13. Mat. 22. 1. King 8. Ibidem Only Princeâ— are to commaund the goods bodies of their sâ—biects Chrysost. de verbis Esaiae Vidi Dominum hom 4. Hieron ad Heliodor in epitap Nepotiani 1. Cor. 6. S. Paul abused by the Iesuitâ—s to make the Pope iudge of temporal matters 1. Cor. 6. â— Cor. 6. De opere Monachorum ca. 29 * CoÌ„fes li. 6. ca 3. * Praefat. in lib. Dialogorum * Ibidem The Bishops might not refuse to heare and end the griefs of their brethren by charitable perswasion but not by iudiciall compulsion without the Princes warrant The defence Cap. 5. The defence Cap. 5. The ciuil Gouernor subiect to the spirituall amongst christians Though the spirituall and temporall bee distinct states yet the Pope will be sure to rule theÌ„ both Pastours haue their regimeÌ„t but ouer the soules not ouer the bodies or goods of men Howe the Prince is subiect to the Priest likewise the priest to the Prince The Prince is absolutely subiect vnto God and yet if he refuse his dutie to God he may not be deposed by the minister The defence cap. 5. In orat ad popul trepidanâ—eÌ„ Impera commoâ—um Nazians similitude to expresse the subordination of ciuil and of spirituall gouernment Nazianzenes wordes to the Emperour Nazian oratio 18. ad ciues Nazianzenos graui timore perculsos principem irascent Nazian Ibidem Ibidem The Bishop claimeth free speeches in Gods behalfe to intreate the Prince for the people Ibidem Nazian IbideÌ„ Ibidem We that is as wel Pastors as people Oratiâ— 18. ad ciues Nazian The preachers function excelleth the Princes imperfection Wherin princes excell Preachers The princes the preachers functions coÌ„curre in the same things though in diuerse sortes The defence cap. 5. When the spirituall gouernment is to correct the temporall Pastoures must procure the welfare of of the church but by lawfull and Godly meanes The Defence cap. 5. Mat. 18. The Pride of Popes preferring theÌ„selues before Princes Decretal lib. 1. tit 33. de maiorirat obedieÌ„tia cap. 6. ¶ praeterea Ibidem glossa in ver Inter Solem Lunam Passing good Arythmetike â…ž is 56. not 47. The Iesuites rake the verie filth of their schoole meÌ„ Canonists set a new florish vpon it If thy brother sinne against thee that is doe thee priuate wrong Ambros. in Lucam lib. 8. cap. 17. Hieron â—n Matthaei 16. August de verbis Domini sermo 16. Let him be to thee as an Ethnicke that is compt him no longer to bee thy brother Let him be to thee as an Ethnike maketh nothing for the deposition of Princes They were Ethnickes to whom Christ and his Apostles commaÌ„ded all men to be subiect Iohn 19. August contra aduersar legis Prophet lib. 1. cap. 17. To be left to the iudgemeÌ„t of god is more grieuous than any humane torment can be Ibidem The Church can not decree that Princes shall be deposed The Church may not break the least of Gods commandements August contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 21. Chrysost. opere imperfect in Mat. homil 49. * Gal. 1. Luk. 20. * Rom. 13. * 1. Peter 2. The defence Cap. 5. Deceitfull perswasions of Politikes vnto Princes for their ruine The Apostles whose commission was largest had no power to depose princes Episcopal iurisdiction standeth not in the depositioÌ„ of princes The precepts of God for obedience to Princes bind Bishops as well as others * Rom. 13. What mockeries the Iesuits must make of the Scriptures before they can depose Princes by the word of God * Rom. 13. * 1. Pet. 2. * Luke 20. The Iesuites pretend that lawe order iudgement shuld be obserued in the deposing of princes but the Pope wil be tied no farder than to one of these The defence cap. 5. The exaÌ„ples of disobedieÌ„t Princes to the Church and of their punishment or confusion Some late Princes haue beene wearie with the Popes practises but neuer anie obayed his sentence of deposition The Pope in greater daÌ„ger with God for abusing his keyes than Princes for resisting his attempts Caus. 11. quaest 3. ¶ cui est Ibidem ¶ temâ—rarium The defence cap. 5. Chrysost. in vitae Babyl The example of Bishop Babylas Nicep li. 5. c. 25. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 24. Theod. lib. 5. cap. 17. Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 28. Aug. de ciuitate Dei li. 5. ca. 26. Our shameles age Diuers princes excommunicated by their Pastors Niceph. lib. 13. cap. 34. Georg. Patriar in vita chrysos The sentence of excommunication giuen by Innocentius Bishop of Rome against the Emperour Excommunication doth not infer deposition The Iesuits proue that some Princes were excommunicated when they should proue they were deposed With Idolaters and Infideles we may communicate in earthly but not in heaueÌ„ly things Infidels of their owne accord be out of the church heretikes be thrust out * Vt suprà pag. 350. Princes in the primatiue Church were excommunicated yet honored and obayed ergo depositioÌ„ is no point of excoÌ„munication The Princes were heretiks yet obaied serued ergo heresie then was no depriuation from their Crowns The Iesuites examples are flat against the depriuation of Princes Chrysost. contrae gentiles liber continens vitâ— Babylae Martyris This report of Babylas can not stand with the Church storie Euseb. li. 6. ca. 39. Niceph. lib. 5. cap. 26. Babylas died in prison vnder Decius not slaine by Numerius or Philip. Chrysost. contra gentiles Chrysost. contra Gentil Niceph. lib. cap. 25. Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 34. The Prince instructed to aske pardon at gods hands for al his former sinnes not depriued of his Crown S. Ambrose is the only exaÌ„ple in al antiquitie iustly proued that a Bishop did excoÌ„municat a Prince Theodoret. li. 5. cap. 17. Theod. lib. 5. cap. 18. The maner of S. Ambrose his excommunication Sozome lib. 7. cap. 24. The Iesuites helpe this storie with their admixtions Theodoret. li. 5. cap. 18. Theod. Ibidem Sozome li. 7. Cap. 24. S. Ambrose would not that the princes presence should hinder the seruice of God Princes may be penitent for their sins yet keepe their Crowns Anastasius excommunication is not certainly proued Liber Pontifi in vita Symmach Euag. lib. 3. cap. 34. Niceph. lib. 16. cap. 35. Sabel Aenead 8. lib. 2. Platina in Gelasio 1. Martinus in Anastasio Ioh. Marius de schismat concil cap. 6. * Platina in Gelas. 1. * Sabellicus lib. 2. Caus. 15. quaest 6. ¶ Alius A strange kind of deposing Princes Ibidem Michaels excoÌ„municatioÌ„ witnessed in no auncient writer Platina in Nicolao 1. Zonaras in Michaele filio Theophili Epist. Nicolai 1. ad Michael Imperatorem tomo concil 2. Regino in anno 855.
Otho â—rising lib. 6. cap. 2. Regino in anno 866. Regino in anno 869. Otho Frisingen lib. 6. cap. 3. This excommunication is proued to be a mere forgerie before Of seuen examples but one proued and that of no Bishop of Rome The cause why the Church of Christ did so rarely excommunicate Princes August contra Parmenian lib. 3. cap. 2. Excommunications of whole realms then be much more proude pernitious sacrilegious August contra epist. Parmen lib. 3. cap. 2. The whole Church obserued this moderation which Austen speaketh of August Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 2. 2. Thesalo 3. The subiect neither may nor caÌ„ flie the Princes companie Theodoret. lib. 5 cap. 18. The Iesuites prouide for this mischiefe by wilie dissembling with Princes till they be strong enough to take their crownes from them * Tum demum obliget Catholicos quando publica eiusdeÌ„ bullae executio fieri poterit facultas concessa Roberto Parsonio Edmundo Campiano 14. April 1480. 8. Tim. 2. Ierem. 19. Tertul. in Apologet The christiaÌ„s praied not only for their conuersion but also for their health and welfare The church praied for the prosperitie of hereticall Princes Socra li. 2. ca. 37 Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 18. Socrat. Ibidem Accustomed praiers alwaies made in the church for ConstaÌ„tius the Arian the West Bishops desirous to continue the same Hil. ad Constan. lib. 2. Athan. Apolog. ad Constan. The zealous praier of Atha and the people for their Prince though an heretike Athan. Ibidem Athan. eadem Apol. ad ConstaÌ„ Rebellion depriuation of Princes not so much as thought on by christians and specially by Bishops The defence Cap. 5. When vpoÌ„ what occasions spirituall Pastors began to vse the temporall sworde Spirituall Pastours neuer vsed the temporall sworde till the Pope beganne to rule all at his pleasure The defence Cap. 5. Warre for the Catholike religion both lawfull and honorable The Iesuites should proue that subiectes may rebell against their Princes for religion and they shew that one Prince may warre vpon another In all warres the person must be warraÌ„ted to draw the sword as well as the cause good that they fight for Priuate men can giue no warrant to vse the sword They be but theeues and murtherers that vse the sword without the magistrats authoritie Pastours can authorize no man to vse the sworde They that beare it by Gods ordinance must licence others to vse it Pastors be no superiour iudges for bearing armes The defence How fauorable the Papistes bee to their owne tumults Lawes of their owne making do not excuse them from rebellion The Iesuites take armes to depose Princes that is to subuert their states liues whom by Gods lawe they should honor and obey The defence cap. 15. 2. Paral. cap. 15. A king forcing his people is no proofe for subiectes oppressing their Prince These straungers did take an oth to serue God but not to impugne their Prince 2. Chron. 15. 3. Kings 15. The mother could haue no right to the Scepter her sonne being in full possession of the crowne 2. Chron. 15. Asa had been king 15. yeares aboue before he remoued his mother from her dignitie Asaes mother lost the dignity which shee had but not the crowne which she had not The defence cap. 5. Deut. cap. 13. Death by Gods law prouided not for heretiks but for Apostates Leuit. 24.20 Exod. 22.21 The penalties of Moses lawe stand not in force vnder the Gospell Aug. contra Cresc li. 3. ca. 50 nullis bonis in catholica hoc placet si vsque ad mortem in queÌ„quam licet haereticum saeuiatur Deut. 13. * Exod. 20. The Prince is to punish others and not to be punished by others Princes when they sin must be left to the righteous iudgement of God Children may not chastise their parentes though faulty much lesse subiects their Soueraignes Deut. 25. Execution done vpon Princes You would slay 3000. Numb 25.4 Vers. 1. 2. This fact had the commandement of God and the magistrate for a warrant rebellion against Princeâ— hath neither Numb 25.5 God imbraced the zeale of Phinees not for vsing the sword without authoritie but for neglecting his owne dignitie whiles he did execute the precept of God the magistrate Exod. 32. The Leuites were charged by God the Magistrate to do this execution 1. Chron. 6. â— Chron. 23. Moses was a Magistrate Gen. 14. Priests and Prophetes among the Iewes were sometimes magistrates Psalm 99. * 2. Sam. 8. * 2. Sam. 20. The word coheÌ„ signifieth as well a Prince as a Priest Exod. 40. Aaron his sonnes onely had the priesthood Numb 3. Moses was Aarons brother and not his sonne Num. 18. Aarons brethren might not come neer the Altar Moses might annoint Aaron yet be no Priest Heb. 5. Hieron traditiones Hebraicae in libros Regum tomo 3. Hieron in Psal. 98. S. Hierom S. Aug. take the woord Priest largely for him that teacheth as well as for him that offereth and in that sense Moses may be called a Priest notwithstanding he were also a Magistrate August in Psalm 98. * 1. Chron. 6.33.34 * Num. 25.13 1. Sam. 14. * 1. Chron. 6. Aug. quaest super Leuit. lib. 3. cap. 23. * Numb 12. * Exod. 33. * Numb 27. Deut. 31. * Iudg. 1. 1. Sam. 16. Samuel no Priest * 1. Sam. 7. * Iudg. 11. * Iudg. 13. * Iudg. 13.2 * 2. Sam. 6. * 2. Sam. 24. * 1. Kings 3. * 1. Kings 9. What the scripture meaneth when it saith that they which were no Priests offered * 1. Sam. 13. 1. Sam. 14. vers 3. 18. Sauls offence was distrust impatience not sacrificing in his owne person * 1. Sam. 10. * 1. Sam. 13. The defence Cap. 5. Numb 27. The punishment of Princes for schism and reuolt 2. Paral. 13. 1. Paral. 21. 4. Reg. 8. * Numb 27.21 The Priest was to consult God for the kinges warres but not to appoint the king what he thought good * Ver. 18.28 * Ver. 18. * Ver. 2.4.11.12 * Ver. 8. * 2. Chron. 13. The warres of Abiah were of one Prince against an other * 2. Chron. 11. * 2. Chron. 13.5 And not so much for religion as for renting the kingdom of Israell from Iudah 3. Kings 15. 3 Kings 14.22 Abia was as bad as Ieroboam 4. Kings 8. The men of Edom were prophane infidels and had no respect to religion when they reuolted 2. Chron. 25. Ioshua 21. 4 Kings 8. Euerie thing reported in the Scripture is not by by commended * 2. Chron. 21. They did euill to rebell or else al the rest that obeied did not well This defectioÌ„ of Libuah from the kingdom of Iudah and temple of God was directly against the law of God * Ioshua 22. The ten tribes had sufficient authoritie to fight with twaine Iudg. 20. The defence cap. 5. But what fights can you shew of subiects against their Princes The warres of
prince against prince are nothing to this purpose The defence Cap. 5. Euseb. li. 9. ca. 6. The Armenians were no subiects but consederates Euseb. li. 9. ca. 7. The defence Cap. 5. Warres made for religion It is not enough to proue that some rebelled but this also must be shewed that their rebellion was allowed * Rom. 13. Well they might shut the Church dores against Ethnickes whiles they were at the diuine mysteries but they neuer rebelled nor refused to suffer any punishmeÌ„t that Galerius or others would inflict on theÌ„ Euseb. li. 8. ca. 7.9.10.12 * Euseb. li. 8. ca. 7.9.10.12 * The defence cap. 5. Nazian de lande Basil. Ambros. lib. 5. epist. * Theod. lib. 4. cap. 19. S. Basil would not suffer the people to grow to a tumult for his defeÌ„ce See Nazianzenes funeral oration in the praier of S. Basil. The people offered to saue their Bishop froÌ„ the priuate and intemperate rage of a deputie but not from the Emperour Nazian in laudem Basilij oratio funebr This tumult seemed tollerable and yet S. Basill would not allow it S. Ambrose would not suffer the people of Millan to defeÌ„d him against the Emperour Ambros. epist. lib. 5. epist. ad Marcel 33. Ibidem Pugnare non debeo See the fifth booke and 33. epistle of S. Ambrose for this whole action This casuall disorder was much against the Bishops will yet nothing neere a rebellion Lib. 5. epist 33. * Ibidem Had the Iesuites been in S. Ambrose place they would haue tolde the Emperor an other tale The Defence cap. 5. If the people were afraid to rebell in the primatiue Church what thinke you were the Bishops The defence cap. 5. Theodoret. li. 2. cap. 13. The example of Athanasius Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 13. Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 7. Dama in Pontific Athanasius no rebell Athanasius horribly belâ—ed by the Iesuits Athanasius cleareth himselfe of that which the Iesuits father on him Athanas. ad Imperator ConstantiuÌ„ Apolog. Did this man stirre Constans against Constantius * And Iesuits Athanasius saith it had been madnes to haue done that which the Iesuits say he did Athanas. IbideÌ„ Ibidem How farre the was he from rebelling Be they sober or wel in their wits that not only thinke but openly affirm they may resist and depriue the prince The people of Alexandria were verie seditious Socra li. 7. c. 13. Euag. li. 2. ca. 8. Socrat. lib. 3. cap. 2. lib. 5. cap. 16. li. 7. cap. 13. Euag. lib. 2. cap. 5. 8. Theeues and murtherers far more tolerable than deposers of Princes Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 13. Athanas. euer submitted him selfe when he saw the people inclined to any tumult for his cause Sozom. lib. 8. cap. 18. And so did Chrysostome The Defence cap. 5. Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 17. 30. Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 19. * Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 37. The tumult at Alexandria for the receiuing of Peter and reiecting of Lucius Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 37. The people draue Lucius from his See but not with armes The people might cleaue to their true pastor though the Prince by force had placed an other in his steede That Lucius was expelled from his Bishopricke is confessed but the meane how it was done is not expressed Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 36. Lucius detested for sheding of blood by one that was a conuert of the Saracens The defence cap. 5. Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 18. Niceph. lib. 14. cap. 21. * Theodoret. li. 5. cap. 39. How the Persians were harboured by Theodosius the yonger * Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 18. * Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 18. * Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 20. Can the Iesuits find no difference betweene deposing princes by their owne subiects harboring of strangers by other princes Atticus no subiect to the persian can be no president for subiects Theodosius the Emperor had other good causes to warre vpon the Persian Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 20. Cap. 18. 20. The defence cap. 5. The example of Pope Leo the first Leo. epist. 75. Euag. li. 2. ca. 8. Leo requested the Prince to punish his subiects what is that to the depriuation of Princes Euag. li. 2. ca. 8. It is a glorious thing for a Prince to punish heretikes but not for subiects to rebell against their Prince The defence cap. 5. Gregorie made the like request to the Emperours deputie For 600. yeres after Christ no subiect tooke armes against his prince for any matter of religion Aug. in Psal. 124. If Apostataes were serued obaied by Christians what Princes should be deposed Caus. 11. quaest 13. §. Iulianus The defence cap. 5. What Princes may be excoÌ„municated when The Iesuites finding no example in the Primatiue church where a prince was vrged with armes by his own subiects come to this shift that they might haue doone it though they did it not If the Bishops might haue deposed princes and did not theÌ„ were they permitters increasers of their heresie and tyrannie The defence Cap. 5. The Iesuits slaunder the auncieÌ„t martyrs of christs Church as if they had been willing but not able to resist their Princes Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 22. What oportunities the christians had to distresse Constantius Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 25. Athanas. apolog ad Constant. Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 34. And Iulian. * In Psal. 124. * Socrat. lib. 3. cap. 22. And valens Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 3. Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 35. And Valentinian Paulus Diaconus de gest Romanor lib. 1. And Anastasius Euag. li. 3. ca. 44 Anastasius an heretike offered to resigne his Crowne the people would not suffer him Regard of dutie and the Apostles doctrine kept the primatiue Church from resisting hereticall princes * Rom. 13. Paulus Diaconus de gest Romanor lib. 1. The defence cap. 5. Se. S. Thomas 2.2 quaest 10. artic 10. Rom. 13. Their scroles resolue directly against S. Paul Rom. 13. Luke 20. This is nether pertinent to our question nor any part of their meaning Tertullian ad Scapulam Neuer rebels were christiaÌ„s in the primatiue Church The reasons why ChristiaÌ„s would not resist taken out of their own confessions Tertul. in apologetico Ibidem Christians commanded by God to pray for their Princes though they were persecutors Ibidem See S. Paul S. Peter for obedience to heathen Princes Rom. 13. Tertul. in apologetico Mark what faces the Christians had 200. yeres after Christ. Desolation would haue followed if the ChristiaÌ„s should haue but forsaken the Pagans The Citizens almost all Christians The defence cap. 5. The defence cap. 5. Princes excoÌ„municated depriued for defects in religion An Anti pape Heretical malice No president for the depriuatioÌ„ of princes within a 1000. yeres after Christ. Zonar annal to 3. in imperio Leon. Isaâ—ri Vrspergens in anno 718. Otho Frisingen lib. 5. cap. 18. Sigebert in anno 731. The rebellion of the ItaliaÌ„s against Leo might be the Popes secret practise but he durst not appeare in the
set vp in arms against their father For this whole storie see Cuspinian in HeÌ„r 4. Auent in Annalibus the life of Henrie the 4. in fasciculo reruÌ„ sciendaruÌ„ The Nobles shrinking froÌ„ the father to the sonne Henrie the 4. aided by his mortall enemies when he was forsaken of his friends A right patern of the Romish institution The defence cap. 5. Chron. hist. Pol. lib. 4. Kings of later times excommunicated Cuspin in Hen. 4. Cuspin ibidem Bishop Stanislaie murdered by king Boleslaus This kings â—ct was euill 〈◊〉 the Popes was worse It is a greater sinne for a subiect to kill his Prince than for a king to kill a Bishop Cromerus de rebus Polon lib. 4. in Boleslao Rebellion and murder are the fruites of the Popes deposing Princes We defende not the vices of Princes but examine the Popes power to depriue theÌ„ of their crownes God punisheth Princes though not by the Pope And what if the Pope be a malefactour who shall punish him The keyes do not touch the crownes of Princes Tyrants were neuer yet repressed by Priestes 1. Sam. 22. 2. Sam. 11. 3. Reg. 21. 18 Mat. 14. Act. 12. Many Princes haue beene deposed by their owne Realmes but not by Priestes Princes were better to refer themselues to their realmes if they were to choose their iudges than to endure the Popes pride How Frederike the first was handled By these artes the Pope hath growen great by these he yet standeth Psalm 91. The tyraÌ„nies iniuries of Popes against Princes were infinite Radeuiâ—us de gestis Frederici lib. 10. Apud Naucler volum 3. gener 39. anno 1156. The Popes letter to the Emperour * A foule sinne for the prince to set his name before the Popes The Pope woulde not haue the clergie sweare fealtie to their Prince The popes gaine must not be impaired Nauel ibidem The mildnes of Frederikes answere to the Popes letter Bishops owe fidelitie to Princes not only in respect of their temporalities but of their duties to gods ordinance The detestable beast of prid crâ—pt loÌ„g since vnto Peters seate Antichrist practising for life to make him selfe strong Abbas Vrspergens in anno 1152. Nauc genera 39. anno 1158. The Pope coÌ„triueth a mighty coÌ„spiracie to resist the prince to driue him cleane out of Italie Vrsperg in anno 1152. Naucler generat 39. Cuspinian in Frederico Adrian choked with a fly Cuspian in Friderico 1. Cuspinian in Frederico 2. The Italian stories wholie bent to iustifie the Popes doinges and to belie the Germane Princes In these cases I alleadge no writers but men of their own religion Radeuicus de gestis Frideric 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. 71. Radeuicus de gestis Frideric 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. 71. Radeuicus de gestis Frideric 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. 71. Radeuicus de gestis Frideric 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. 71. This conspiracy was made whiles Adrian liued before Alexanders election came in question The councell of Papia pronounced Victor to bee lawfully chosen Radeuicus de de gestis Frideric 1. lib. 2. c. 64 Bishops had skill in the canons of the of church which princes had not Radeuic lib. 2. cap. 67.68.70 The greater part of the cardinals had conspired against the Prince The choice of Victor Alexander seâ— vp by the coÌ„spiratours against Victo Frederike did but the dutie of a christian Prince and much lesse their ancient Emperors did in the like case Victors election was faultie but Alexanders was worse Alexanders election was vtterly voide Councels before and after did as much as this came to Apud Rudeuic lib. 2. cap. 51. ca. 52. The causes of this conspiracy The meanes which the Pope vsed to tire the Emperour Naucl. gener 39. 40. Cuspinian in Fred. 1. Frederike tamed those countâ—ies that rebelled against him Vide Naucl. gener 40. anno 1177. The time for Antichrist to be exalted Naucl. gen 40. anno 1177 The Pope is where hee would be Can you tell where S. Peter did wage warre vpon any priuate maÌ„ or Prince Naucl. gen 39. anno 1158. The Pope fighteth with Princes for earthly gaines griefs What quarels the Pope hath pursued these 500. yeares First clergie mens liuings then their persons must be exempted from the Prince How Frederik the second was handled Vrsper in anno 1227. Blond dec 2. lib. 7. Al that wickednesse was the lawfull defence of his owne right Platina in Honorio 3. The Italians cannot defend the Pope but by inforcing hainous crimes against the Emperors though they know none The causes of the Popes egernes against Frederik the â— In Henrico 3. Decad. 2. lib. 7. Vrspergens in anno 1221. The Pope did the Prince wrong though the Italians say nay Cuspinian in Frederico 2. Cuspinians admonition of the Italian stories It was no smal point of Antichrists policie to get some that should make all maner of lies for him his See Gregories furie against this Emperor Note the pietie of Popes So had you neede to say for if you graÌ„t them to bee â—ruâ— the pope could be litle lesse than a diuell incarnate Naucler gener 41 anno 1229. The Italians would faine preteÌ„d other causes to saue the Popes honestie thâ—se be so shameful that they blush to hear them Naucler IbideÌ„ The Pope would not admit the Princes embassadors to proue their masters sicknesse This was no pride Vrstergen in anno 1227. The Pope did hinder the Prince from going yet excommunicated him for not going Naucler gener â—1 anno 1226. The Popes keies were euer ready against the Prince but neuer against those that molested the Prince Vrspergen in anno 1228. Vrsper â—odem anno The Pope inuadeth the Emperours dominions whiles he was fighting against the Turke What was this but to betraie the christians to the Turkeâ— Vrspergen in anno 1229. The Pope is angry that the prince returneth with peace and victory Nauâ— l. generaâ— 41. anno 1228. The pope stirreth the princes souldiers to rebell against him when he was incamped against the Turke Though this Prince suffered al these wrongs at the Popes hands yet the ItaliaÌ„s raile mightily on him and magnifie the Pope in al his doings Blondus in fauor of the Pope dealeth very spitefully with Frederik the second Naucl. gene 41. anno 1229. Blondus helpeth Pope Gregories tale â—londus Decad. 2. lib. 7. Blondus false sâ—rmise of Frederike What wil not Italian wittes doe when they be displeased Platina in Gregorio 9. Frederike recouered the kingdome of Ierusalem froÌ„ the Turke The Pope grieued with the Princes returne because his presence would hinder the Popes practises The Prince had been well occupied to stand fighting for Christes sepulcher whiles the Pope spoiled him in the meane time of his kingdome at home The holy land did the Pope good seruice The Pope rather encreased
brother Beza In editione anno 1564. The opinion of the congregation art 39. The battaile of Druze The Nobles of France repressed the furie of the Guise the king being vnder age The King had neither age nor Lawe to licence the Guise to murder his people Lâ—x Salica Bezaes iudgement of bearing armes against the Prince out of his own works Beza in confessione fidei Christianae eiusdem cum Papisticis erroribus Collatione cap. 5. sect 45. Ibidem cap. 5. sectio 45. PriuatmeÌ„ may disobay a wicked pâ—ince but not bear arms against him To you Sir slanderer The warres of the FreÌ„ch ministers lewdly peruerted by the Iesuites If the supreme dominion of God be violated by the coÌ„maundement of any prince that precept may bee well disobeied but not the prince displaced Infidels must be obaied so farre forth as their precepts tend not to the dishonour of Gods holie name Mat. 5. The defence cap. 4. The defence of Zuing. lib. 4. epist. Zuing. Oâ—col fol. 186. 4. Reg. 21. Art 42. explan fol. 84. The manifest forâ—es of coÌ„mon wealthes make diuerse men speake diuersly of the magistrates sword Germanie a free state and the Emperors authoritie limited by the Lawes of the Empire The germans proportion their speaches according to the state of their country Zuinglius meÌ„t this of Princes elected limited 1. Sam. 14. 1. Chron. 13. 1. Kings 12. Ierem. 26. God neuer required the people to displace their King but not to consent to his wickednes Explanat articulo 42. Ibidem A tyrant inheriting may not be displaced by Zuinglius opinion Ibidem Princes may neither be murdered nor assaulted with any tumult by Zuinglius iudgement Ibidem Ibidem Succession most vsual in christian kingdomes and allowed by God himselfe Psal. 132. 1. Sam. 13. 2. Kings 10. The defence cap. 4. Goodmans opinion Cap. 14. à pag. 204. ad pag. 212. Goodmans priuate opinion long since corrected by him selfe cannot preiudice the whole realme GoodmaÌ„ did not hold that lawful Princes might be thrust froÌ„ ther Crownes but that Queene MARY was no lawful magistrate The defence cap. 5. The iudgemeÌ„t of the Scottish ministerie Iohn Knokes IbideÌ„ pag. 77. Sleid. lib. 17. Sleid. lib. 19. lib. 21. The defence cap. 4. The opinion and definitioÌ„ of Luther Sled hist. li. 8. Lib. 21. Lib. 22. What Luther taught of obedience to magistrates Sleid. lib. 8. The Gospel doth not bar the politike lawes of any countrie Sleid. lib. 8. The Lawes of the Empire permit resistance Sleid. lib. 18. not the 21. as you quote The states of Germany not subiect to the Emperour but with conditioÌ„ Sleid. 22. This is true in free States but not in absolute subiectes The differeÌ„ce betwene the Ies. the Germanes resistance No law permitteth the Pope to depose Princes but that which is of his owne making The defence cap. 4. The rage of popish persecutors is able to set good men besides their byas There is great diuersitie in bearing armes though we allow none if the lawes of the Land do not warrant the same In some cases the nobles coÌ„mons may stand for the publike regiment lawes of their CouÌ„trie Christian Kingdomes may settle their States with common consent of Prince and people which the Prince alone caÌ„not alter The Princes sword is his law not his lust Princes may be staied froÌ„ tyranny by their owne realms though not deposed Germanie Flaunders Scotland Fraunce The Iesuites forget how often the Italians haue rebelled both against the Emperour against the pope himself in euery nation what dissentions rebellions haue beene before our time The practises of the Iesuits wherewith this land is greeued and displeased These be no pointes of religion but flat treason This easie punishment for twentie yeres sheweth the goodnesse of her dispositioÌ„ and the mildnesse of her regiment This later seueritie the Ies. haue prouoked by their wilfulnesse The Iesuites make rebellion a point of their Catholike faith because they would the sooner infect the people with it Casus conscientiae qui hodie in Anglia occurrunt sacerdotibus comissis artic 55. And if you be asked do you beleeue that the Bishop of Rome may licence you to beare armes against the Queene of England and to kill her if you can what must you answere by this resolution of your but I beleeue he may Till this position be recanted by the Ies. a traitour a Iesuite caÌ„not be sundered Mat. 22. Princes not depriueable by any mortal man Luke 12. Iohn 18. August in Psal 47. Ibidem The Iesuites make the Popes pride a poinct of Christian faith The Popes keyes exteÌ„d not to the goods or laÌ„ds of the poorest subiect in this realme Pastours haue their kind of correction ouer Princes but that is far from depriuation The Pastor cannot force his flock Chrysost. de sacerdot lib. 2. Pastours may not coÌ„straine but only perswade Ibidem Bishops least of al men may correct with force Compulsion neither lawful nor expedient in Bishops Hilar. ad Const. lib. 2. imperfect Bishops may not meddle but with those that be willing Orig. in cap. 13. epist. ad Rom. God will not haue crimes reuenged by the Rulers of the Church but by the Iudges of the world Bishops by vertue of their calling cannot authorize violence or armes Rom. 13. Defendorâ— of the Popes power to depose princes are no Martyrs but hainous traitors The maintainers abettours of this power put to death and none els The defence cap. 1. An. 1583. M. Slade M. Bodie The question of Peters keyes as the Iesuites expound theÌ„ is no religion To subiect the Princes sword or Crowne to the Popes courtes and Buls is treasoÌ„ by our Lawes the rest of his vsurped power is heresie not treason These treasoÌ„s be no trifles August contra literas Petil. lib. 2. cap. 92. No coÌ„spiracie so dangerous as that which possesseth the heart vnder a shew of religion Peters keyes wickedly wrested to commaund the swordes and dispose the crownes of Princes A lewd deceit of the Iesuites to call that religioÌ„ which is none Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. Magdebur in praefat Cent. 7. Cal. in 7. cap. Amos. Bodie said so at Andeuer but he lied the more Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. 1. Elizabethae The statute vpoÌ„ the which they were coÌ„demned Popish Bishops were the first that consented to haue the king called supreme head A plainer stile receiued to auoide offence Supreme head no more blasphemous in the Prince than in the Pope to whoÌ„ the Iesuites giue that stile Caluin mistook supreme by Gardiners wily suggestioÌ„ Caluin in 7. Amos. Cal. Ibidem Steuen Gardiner expounded supreme as if the prince might doe what he would in matters of religioÌ„ without regard of God oâ— his word How Caluine vnderstoode Supreme head Supreme must be referred to peâ—soÌ„s and not to things We giue the Prince no right to bee iudge of religion but power to receiue settle in her realme that which is
his own Image Deut. 4. Esai 40. Ibidem Moses Esay referre the secoÌ„d precept to any Image made with hands and erected vnto God The later part of the 2. precept forbidâ—th to worship that which the first did forbid to make Esa. 42. 1. Cor. â— An Image made by man vnto God is but a dishonour vnto God Deut. 27. Esa. 40. Euery Image erected vnto God is an Idol Deut. 27. Sapient 14. Esa. 44. The Idolatrous Iewes pretended to worship the Image of God when they set vp the calfe * Exod. 32. vers â— * Iudic. 17. Iudic. 2. Baal was set vp for the Image of god * Ose. 2. * Esa. 40.46 Ambr. in Psal. 118. sermo 10. Origen contra Celsum lib. 7. The Heathen did not take their Images for Goddes Lactant. de fals religione lib. 2. cap. 20. Clemen recognitio ad Iac. lib. 5. Aug. in Psal. 113. concione 2. Marke well this shiâ—â— and tel me what the Papistes lacke of it Rom. 1 It is wickeder Idolatrie to worship an Image than to worship a creature A greater sin for those that know God to set vp an Image vnto him than for those that knew him not The figure of a man set vp vnto God is an Idole as well as the figure of a beast Deut. 4. Rom. 1. * Psal. 115. Esa. 44. An horrible picture of the Trinitie with three faces in the popish praier bookes * Horae Mariae Impressae per Iohan. le Prest impens Rob. Valenâ— 1555. Nicen. Synod 2. actione 2. Sapien. 14. * You doe defend them in your Rhemish Testament fol. 345. * Esa. 44. Deut. 27. The artificiall figure of Christs humane flesh may not be worshipped Lactant. de fals religio lib. 2. cap. 2. * Lactant. IbideÌ„ * Lactant. li. 2. cap. 19. Christ must be worshipped with al humilitie but not his Image because that is not Christ. Earthly similitudes are al the proofes that Papists haue for adoration of Images The Seates seales of princes make nothing for adoratâ—on of Images An Image can teach vs nothing of that we should beholde in Christ. Christ hath left better safer meanes to remember him than by an Image which papists leaue preferre their own deuises before his * 1. Cor. 10. * Colos. 3. * Ephes. 5. By what meanes and waies the holy Ghost occasioneth vs to remember the sonne of God He hath a dull heart that remeÌ„breth not Christ till he see an Image What commodities the Papists say they sucke out of Images All these fathers are wrested by papists from their right meaning 2. Thes. 2. The Papists greedily embrace other mens forgeries many of their own for adoration of Images Nice Concil 2. act 6. Ibidem Ibidem Ambros. in Psal. 118 Concio 2. Great differeÌ„ce between the seruices Images of God men The Similitude of honoring the original by the Image answered No Creature nor Image capable of Christs honor because it is diuine * Lib. de falsa religio cap. 2. The Fathers make Christ the Image of God and not a peece of wood to bee the Imgae of Christ. If an Image must haue Christs honor ergo it must be God Mar. 4. Luke 4. Images may haue no diuine honor Christ will hauâ— no ciuill salutations nor friendly greetings In Psal. 118. sermo 10. Christ acknowledgeth the poore to bee his Image and yet it were wickednes to worshippe them Men are the liuing Images of christ made by the handes of GOD himselfe The Image which is made for Christ is no more like him than it is to any other of the saintes or wicked Making and worshiping of Images falâ—ly fathered on the Apostles Damasc. lib. 4. cap. 17. Nicepho lib. 2. cap. 7. A fable of Christ painting his own face Euseb. lib. 1. cap. 13. * Distinâ—t 15. § S. Roâ—ana Of such legeÌ„ds the Church of Rome hath plentie a Damasc. lib. 4. cap. 17. Citatur ab Adriano in epist. sua Nicenâ— Synod 2. act 2. * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names b This place is not found in all S. Basils Epistles yet there are extant of his 180 and many of them not fouer lines a peece so that all were preserued sauing this that was neuer wriâ—â—â—n If that were Adrians Epistle he might soone be deceiued but it seemeth to be rather a late forgerie in AdriaÌ„s name Infinite forgegeries haue beene coÌ„mitted in the fathers names as appeareth at this day in al their works The west Bishops that refuted the 2. Nicene councel al authorities one after an other neuer mentioned this place therefore it hath beene put in since their time * The Epistle hath neither trueth learning reason nor sense * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle The scriptures alleaged in Adrians Epist. * Genes 1. * Genes 2. * Genes 4. * Genes 8. * Genes 28. If the scripturs be not horribly abused let Images on Gods name be adored a Esa. 19. b Psal. 95. c Psal. 25. d Psal. 26. e Psal. 44. f Psal. 4. Children would not thus play with Scriptures The brasen serpent made by Moses * Iohn 3. * Numb 21. * 1. King 18. And broken in peeces by by Ezechias when it was abused * Hebr. 9. The Cherubins not seen much lesse worshipped Tertul. de Idolatria Fathers abused by Adrian as well as scriptures Nicen. Synod 2. act 2. Eight fathers peruerted in this one Eistle The fathers draw similitudes from prophane things and Adrian wresteth them vnto diuine things Hierom made to speake opeÌ„ Impietie No such thing in al Hieroms workes The place of Basill is set amidst these deprauations of Scriptures and fathers The same place otherwise repeated in the same Councell and therefore the first or the last must needes be forged Nicen Synod act 4 ex ep Basil. ad Iulian. Imperator The Apostles did not prohibite the making of Images in speciâ—l wordes because God had done it sufficiently before * Rom. 7. * Rom. 2. * Rom. 1. * 1. Ioh. 5. August quaest super Iudic. li. 7. â—â—p 41. Gedeons Ephod was an Idol though it were not the Image of a false God
Romanes or Grecians * Why these two words were not traÌ„slated into any tongue See Hieron Maâ—cel epist. 137. Alleluia vsed in this land by the Saxons that could no Latine Grego moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 8. The Britans that could speake no Latine sung the praises of god in what touÌ„g then if not in their own Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. Hierom misconstered by the Iesuites Hieron in 1. Epist. 17 ad Marcel Hierom speaketh of the plough men in Bethleem where Christ was borne It is easie to alleage nine skore fathers in any matter to no purpose God grant it be but ignorance in the Iesuits to cite fathers in this sort The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Latine tongue was common not to all but to such as could meditate the Scriptures in this Lande Beda Histor. Angl. li. 1. ca. 1. Meditation of Scriptures doth not signifie the praiers of the Church If they searched the trueth with fiue tongues then did they read or heare the scriptures in four toungs besides the Latine The Latine tongue was common to those that were learned in those foure Nations Let them take Bede how they wil he maketh nothing for their Latine seruice in the words which they bring The Italian Monks which vnderstood not the SaxoÌ„ toung might haue the Latine seruice in their Abbey but that the people had it in their parish Churches caÌ„not be proued by any place of Bede Hauing Saint Pauls Rule that the people should vnderstand the praiers that are made in the church we neede not search in what tongue eche Nation had their seruicâ— These shifs of the Iesuits being refelled Saint Pauls text is clear for vs. The seruice of the primatiue Church manifestly confirmeth our construction of Saint Paul What order the Apostles tooke for Church seruice as the bookes which they most esteeme doe testifie Constit. Apost lib. 8. cap. 16. The Church seruice diuided between the bishop the whole congregatioÌ„ * Cap. 18. * Cap. 20. The people could not make these answers except they vnderstood the tongue that the Bishop spake in The liturgies of Iames Basil and Chrysostome prescribe like aunswers for the people in the praiers of the Church That which we alleadge out of these liturgies hath the true and vndoubted testimoâ—ies of the Fathers Chrysost. in 2. Cor. in hâ—m 18. Marke the forme of publike praier in Chrysostomâ— time * Can they haue plainer words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Can they haue plaineâ— words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Ibidem * Aug. in Psal. 54. * Ambros. hexam lib. 3. cap. 5. * Leo. sermo 3. de ieiunio 7. mensis The publike praier of the whole people more auaileable with God than the praier of the priesâ— alone * Tertul. in Apologet. * Quasi manu facta Isidor de eccle officiis lib. 1. ca. 10. de lection That al shuldâ— pray sing in the church is a dutie and therefore a necessitie Legum Francie lib. 1. cap. 66. De eccles diuer capitulis Const. 123. * Lyra saith if the people vnderstaÌ„d the priestes praier benediction they be bâ—tâ—er affected to god ward and answere Amen with more deuotioÌ„ 1 Corinth 14 Iustinian applieth S. pauls place to proue that the people should bee edified stirred by the priests words to coÌ„fesse with their mouthes the praise of God in his church The pâ—iaers speaches of their Masse booke at this day proue the people should vnderstand answere the Priest in the chiefest parts of their Church seruice He that speaketh to men that which they cannot vnderstand mocketh and deludeth theÌ„ August de Doct. christia li. 4. cap. 10. 1. Corin. 14. * Ordinarium Missae secuÌ„dum vsum Sarum * Ideo precorvos fratres orate pro me * Orate fratres sorores pro me * Dominus nebiscuÌ„ Oremus * Ordinarium Missae secundiâ— vsum Sarum Sursum corda habemus ad Dominum Et cum spiritu tuo * Sacâ—rd se verâ—ens ad populum tacita voce dicat Orate fratres sorores prome O mockerie to desire the people to pray for him and yet so to speake it that no man shal heare it The Papists haue turned edification into gesticulation It is the people and not God that needeth the Priestes voice in the church praiers * Psal. 27. * Aug. de magiâ—â—ro cap. 1. Speach necessary in respect of the people which if they vnderstand not silence would doe theÌ„ as much good If it be needful for the Priest to speak in the Church seruice it is as needeful for the people to vnderstand what he saith The end of speaking is that others maie vnderstand if therâ—ore that want the first is superfluous August de magistro cap. 1. The Priest at his Masse vttereth euerie word as if the people did vnderstand him and ioyne with him in prayer Oremus Gratias agamus Quaesumus Offerimus Laudamus Benedicamus Adoramus Al toungs are alike to God God no respecter of persons much lesse of toungs Pilates act is not so good a reason for the latine seruice as Caiphas prophesie was for the Popes infallible iudgement and yet either is verie foolish Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. All tongues are fitte for praier The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. S. Augustine rackt by the Iesuites from his right meaning August epist. 118. cap. 5. * The worde should be hodie It is madnes to breake the custome of the vniuersall Church in thinges indifferent The Iesuites defend a new custome against the auncient and generall order of Christs Church are they not mad by S. Augustines rule Lyra. in 1. Cor. 14. Iohan. Eckins in locis communibus The south IndiaÌ„s euer had and yet haue their seruice in their mother tongue * Sigismund liber in rerum Moscouit arum Commentariis cap. de dâ—cimis So haue the Moscouites and Armenians * Petrus Bello de moribus Armeniorum All Africa Asia and the North parts of 〈…〉 â—nd barâ—arous tongues Aeneas Syluius hiâ—â— â—ohem cap. 13. God from heauen decided that the Russians and Morauians should haue their seruice in their natiue tongue though it were barbarous Concil Lateranens sub Innocent 3. ca. 9. * in plerisque partibus Populi diuersar linguaruÌ„ * Secundum diuersitates linguarum Mo tongues vsed in the west Church than the Latine tongue The general vse of the primatiue Church confiâ—meth the seruice in the English tongue All tongues allowed in the primatiue Church for men to make their publike prayers in The Iesuits are so Catholike that they haue not so much as one Father for the greatest points of their religion The walles of the Church were theirs but not the faith of the Church Pilates authoritie is all the holde the
William Which Anselmus in his Epistle to Pope Paschalis complaineth of in this sort The king requireth of me that vnder pretence of right I should yeeld to his pleasures which are repugnant to the law will of God For he woulde not haue the Pope receiued nor appealed vnto in his Land without his cōmaundement neither that I should write to him or receiue answere from him or that I should obey his decrees In all these thinges and such like if I demaunded aduise all the Bishops of his Realme denied to giue me any but according to the kings pleasure After that I asked licence of him to goe to Rome vnto the Sea Apostolike the king answered that I offended against him for the onely asking of leaue and offered me that either I should satisfie him for the same as a trespasse by assuring him neuer to aske this leaue any more nor to appeale to the Pope at anytime hereafter or else that I should speedilie depart out of his Land And after in the time of king Henry the 1. when the said Archbishop was returning home frome Rome the kings Atturney in his masters name forbadde him to enter the Land vnlesse he would faithfully promise him to keepe all the customs both of William conqueror his father William Rufus his brother And K. Henry as soone as he perceiued the Pope the Archbishop to continue their former opinion against his liberties presently seased the Bishoprike into his hands and arested all Anselmus goods The like successe had Thurstane Elect of Yorke who gate leaue of K. Henry the 1. to go to the councell of Rhemes giuing his faith that he would not receiue consecration from the Pope comming to the Synode by his liberal gifts as the fashion is wan the Romanes fauor by their meanes obtained to be consecrated at the Popes handes which as soone as the king of England knew he forbad him to come within his dominion To this other such liberties of the crown K. Hēr the 2. not long after made al his Bishops Nobles to be sworne in a generall assembly at Claredon In the yeare of our Lord 1164. K. Henrie being at Claredon in the presence of the Archbishops Bishops Abbots Priors Earls Barons great men of the realme there was made a rehearsal or acknowledgemēt of some part of the Customes liberties of his Ancestors to wit of K. Henrie his grandfather others which ought to be kept in his realme obserued of all to auoide the dissention discord that often happened between the clergie the kings Iustices nobles of the realm Amongst the which custams being 16. in number these were two No Archbishop Bishop nor any other person of the realme may go out of the land without the kings leaue For appeales if any be made they shal come frō the Archdeacō to the bishop frō the Bishop to the Archbishop if the Archbishop faile in doing iustice it shal be lawful to come last of al to the king that by his cōmandement the matter may bee ended in the Archbishops court so that no mā shal proceede to appeale any farther without the kings consent This acknowledging recording of the customes liberties of the crown the Archbishops Bishops Abbots Priors yea the clergie with the Earles Barons all the Nobles sware by word of mouth faithfully promised should be kept obserued to the king his heires for euer simply without fraud Phi. The selfsame writer that you bring dispraiseth those customes calleth them wicked detestable Theo. His report is the stronger against you in that he was a Monke a misliker of those lawes his iudgemēt against vs the weaker For these princely dignities had preuailed from the Conquest til that time were in that age yeelded sworne vnto by the Bishops clergy of his realm are in themselues if you list to discusse them agreeable both to the sacred scriptures ancient councels notwithstanding some Friers fauorers of the Romish See did then doe now to their power withstand them Ph. S. Thomas of Canterbury withstood them vnto death chose rather to lose his life than to yeeld to any such customes The. Do you make him a Saint for resisting his prince or else for sauing certaine lewde priests from the due punishment of the princes lawes Ph. I count him a martyr for spending his blood in defence of the church liberties The. Their rage that slew him I do not commend because it was done by priuate violence not by publike authority but his stout stāding in a peeuish quarrel against his oth against his prince to purchase impunity for homicides other hainous offendors against the common course of law iustice I thinke in these daies you dare not openly defend for feare least the world cry shame on you Ph. You charge him with more thā you can proue The. I charge him with no more than your friendes his are forced to confesse Th. Archbishop of Canter when he had granted these 16. lawes which this superstitious monk calleth wicked detestable promised with an oth to keep them examining diligently that which he had rashly done afflicted himself grieuously sent straightway messengers to the court of Rome to signifie the grief of the church his own asked absolution from the band which he had vnwisely entred into which also he obtained The same yeare K.H. meaning as he said to punish with due seuerity the disorders of al sorts affirmed it to be against reason that he should deliuer to the bishop such clergie men vnpunished as were conuicted before his Iustices of any publike hainous crime And therfore he decreed that whō the Bishops sound guiltie in the presence of the kings iustice they should degrade and deliuer to the kings court to be punished The Archbishop held on the contrary that they ought not to be punished by laymē after they were degraded by the Bishop lest they shold be twise punished for one thing The occasiō of this strife was giuē by one Philip de Broc a canō of Bedford which being indicted of murder spake reprochfully to the Iudge which when he could not deny before the Archbishop he was depriued of his prebend exiled the land for 2. yeares The Archbishop seeing the liberties of the Church now troden vnder foote without the kings knowledge tooke ship intended to go to Rome but the wind being against him he was driuē back to the shore And immediatly vpō that when he was called to accompt for the whole receits that came to his handes whiles he was Chauncelor of England least he should vniustly be cōdemned he appealed to the See of Rome vnder paine of excōmunication forbad as well the Bishops as all the nobles to giue sentence against him that was there both their father and their Iudge The Nobles
was loth to sit iudge in his owne person for that he was not acquainted with the Church Canons which were then brought in question but at length when he saw no remedie himself sate in iudgement both after the Pope and after the Councell and heard the whole matter and ended it for euer This inferreth that at the first when he refused he wanted not power to commaund but skill to discerne more requisite in a iudge than the former Yea at the first when he durst not sit iudge himselfe for lacke of experience hee shewed his soueraintie by making delegates to heare and order the cause So sayth S. Austen the very next wordes For that Constantine durst not be iudge himselfe of a Bishops cause eam discutiendam at que finiendam Episcopis delegauit he made delegates of the Bishops to discusse and determine the same And againe causam Ceciliani iniunxit eis audiendam he gaue foorth a precept to the Bishoppe of Rome and others for hearing of Cecilianus his matter Now to delegate the Bishoppe of Rome with others and to giue fresh iudges after them is an argument of greater authoritie than if the Prince in Person had beene iudge in the cause Did not Constantine receiue that appeale which the Donatists made from Meltiades and assigne them other iudges His Epistle to Chrestus Bishoppe of Siracusas in Sicile whom he willed to be present at the Councell of Arle for the ending of the same matter is an euident proofe that hee did At the first sayth Constantine when this schisme beganne I wrate my letters and tooke this order that certaine Bishops comming from Fraunce the parties in strife called for out of Africke the Bishop of Rome being also there in their presence this quarrell should be throughly considered and pacified Mary for so much as they will not agree to the sentence there giuen but goe forward in their outragious dissention I must take care that the strife which should haue caulmed of it selfe at the first decision at least may now bee composed by the meeting of many Hauing therefore charged a great number of Bishops out of diuers coastes to assemble by the kalends of August at Arle I thought it not amisse by letters to require you that you fayle not to be with them at the time place appointed that by your vprightnes with the good aduise and full consent of the rest which shall then there meete you vpon diligent hearing what either side can say whom we haue commanded to be likewise present they may be reduced from the schisme yet during to religion fayth and brotherly concord as in duetie they be bound When Meltiades and his collegues sayth Austen to the Donatists had pronounced Cecilianus innocent and condemned Donatus as authour of the schisme raised at Carthage your side came backe to the Emperour complained of the iudgement of the Bishops against them The most patient mild Emperour the second time gaue them other iudges namely the Bishops that met at Arle in Fraunce Certes the taking of an appeale made from the Bishoppe of Rome and appointing other iudges after him and besides him strongly concludeth the Princes authoritie to bee farre aboue the Popes euen in causes ecclesiasticall or as you terme them spirituall Will you lastly say that Constantine sate not iudge himselfe in this matter as well after Meltiades as after the Councell of Arle S. Austen is flat against you Your men sayth he speaking to the Donatists appealed from the Bishoppes at Arle to the Princes owne person and neuer left till the Emperour himselfe tooke the hearing of the cause betweene them both and pronounced Cicilianus innocent and those his accusers to be malitious wranglers And againe the Donatists appealed from ecclesiasticall iudgement that Constantine might heare the cause Whither when they came both partes standing before him Cecilianus was adiudged to bee innocent the Donatists ouerthrowen To proue this I will bring you sayth Austen the very wordes of Constantine taken out of his letters where hee witnesseth that vpon iudiciall hearing of both sides hee found Cecilianus to be cleare For first declaring how the parties were brought to his iudgement after two iudgements of Bishoppes alreadie past there saith Constantine I fully perceiued that Cecilianus was a man most innocent obseruing the dueties of his religion and folowing the same neither coulde any crime bee fastened on him as his aduersaries had in his absence suggested And shewing what followed vppon this iudgement Then did Constantine sayth hee first make a most sharpe lawe to punish the Donatists His sonnes continued the same read what Valentinian read when you will what Gratian and Theodosius decreed against you Why wonder you then at the children of Theodosius as if they shoulde haue followed any other president in this cause than the iudgement of Constantine which so many Christian Emperours haue kept inuiolable Though Constantine bee dead yet the iudgement of Constantine giuen against you liueth For when Emperours commaunde that which is good it is Christ and no man els that commaundeth by them Lay these thinges together and marke the consequent First the Bishoppe of Rome and his assessours were appointed by the Prince to meddle with this matter as his delegates Next vppon complaint of their partiall dealing the Prince commaunded others leauing out the Bishoppe of Rome to sit in Fraunce to conclude the same cause Thirdly the Donatistes still appealing the Prince called for both sides hearde them in his owne person gaue small iudgement with Cecilianus and discharged him as innocent therewith made a penall edict against the Donatists Fourthly these princely proceedinges of Constantine the Church of God receiued with honor and vsed with gladnesse the Christian Emperours imbraced as vertuous and confirmed as religious S. Austen alleadgeth them as substantiall proofes for the Catholikes and effectuall iudgements against the Donatistes Now speake vprightly whether in this case the Prince were not superiour to the Pope yea supreme gouernour of Ecclesiasticall persons and causes To Theodosius the elder Damasus Siricius Anastasius as I shewed before made grieuous complaints one after an other against Flauianus for entring and possessing the See of Antioch contrarie to the Canons of the church The prince sending for Flauianus heard his answere and admiring the courage and wisedome of the man willed him to returne to his countrie and feede the flocke committed to his charge notwithstanding the Bishops of Rome for the space of seuenteene yeares before would neither acknowledge him for a Bishop nor communicate with him Of Arcadius his son Innocentius the Bishop of Rome requested a Councel for the trial of Chrysostoms cause but his petition was denied his messengers sent awaie with reproach as troublers of the West Empire Chrysostom banished farther off and this edict giuen forth by Arcadius the East Emperour against those that taking part with Innocentius and fauouring
molten Images And they brake downe in his sight the Altars of Baalim and hee caused to cut downe the images that were on them he brake also the groues and the karued molten images and stampt them to powder and strewed it vpō the graues of them that had sacrificed on them Also hee burnt the bones of the Priestes vpon their Altars and purged Iudah and Ierusalem And when hee had destroyed the Altars and cut downe all the idols throughout the lande of Israell he returned to Ierusalem Then the king sent and gathered all the Elders of Iudah and Ierusalem And the king went vp to the house of the Lord and all the men of Iudah and inhabitantes of Ierusalem and the Priestes and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest and hee read in their eares all the wordes of the booke of the couenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood by his Piller and made a couenant before the Lord to walke after the Lord and to keepe his commandementes and his statutes with all his heart with all his soule that hee would accomplish the wordes of the couenant written in that booke And hee caused al that were found in Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant So Iosias tooke awaie all the abominations out of all the countries that pertained to the children of Israell and compelled all that were founde in Israell to serue the Lord their God al his dayes they turned not backe from the Lord God of their fathers Moreouer Iosiah kept a Passouer vnto the Lord in Ierusalem and hee appointed the Priestes to their charges and said to the Leuites Serue now the Lord your God and his people Israell prepare your selues by the houses of your fathers according to your courses as Dauid the king of Israell hath written and according to the writing of Salomon his sonne And stand in the sanctuarie according to the diuision of the families of your brethren Kill the Passouer and sanctifie your selues and prepare your brethren that they may doe according to the word of the Lord by the hande of Moses Thus the seruice was prepared and the Priestes stood in their places also the Leuites in their orders according to the kinges commaundement So all the seruice of the Lord was prepared the same day to keepe the Passouer to offer burnt offeringes vpon the Altar of the Lord according to the commaundement of king Iosiah Nehemias though he were no king but a captaine sent frō king Artaxerxes yet he discerned resisted the Prophetes that would haue put him in feare was the first that sealed the couenant between God the people with an oth to walke in the law of God and to obserue all the commaundementes of the Lord. And he displaced Tobiah an Ammonite whom Eliashib the high Priest had receiued and lodged within the court of the house of God and cast out all the vessels of the house of Tobiah and commaunded them to clense the chambers for the vessels of the house of God And reproued the rulers for that the house of God was forsaken the Sabbaoth day broken assembling the Leuites singers setting them their places charging the Leuites to clense themselues and to sanctifie the Sabbaoth daie And when he saw Iewes that maried strange wiues he rebuked them and cursed them and smote certain of them tooke an oth of them by God that they should not mary with strangers And one of the sonnes of Ioiadah the sonne of Eliashib the high Priest maried the daughter of Sanballat the Horonite but Nehemiah chased him awaie and clensed the Priestes and Leuites from all strangers and appointed them their courses euerie one in his office There needeth no great skill to set this togither To remoue idols all abominations out of the land to enter a couenāt with God to walke in his waies to proclaime fastes an d make publike praiers to sanctifie the Temple and celebrate the Passouer to seeke and serue God according to his law bee matters ecclesiasticall not temporall and yet in the same cases the godly kinges of Iudah commaunded and compelled all that were found in Iudah Priest and Prophet man and woman to stand to that order which they tooke for the better accomplishing of those their interprises Acknowledge that right and power in Christian Princes at this day to medle with matters of Religion which the Scriptures report and commend in kinges of religious and famous memorie we presse you no farther If you sticke to graunt so much others will not stick to distrust the soundnesse of your doctrine notwithstanding the smoothnesse of your tongues and loftynesse of your spirites wherewith you thinke to compasse and quaile kingdomes Phi. The kinges of Iudah did that which they did at the motion of the Prophetes and direction of the Priestes Theo. You shun that which you shal not auoide Wee reason not who moued and aduised but who decreed and commaunded these thinges to be done Priestes or Princes The Scriptures in plaine termes saie that Princes DECREED APPOINTED COMMANDED them to be done Contradict the wordes if you dare Take from Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosias the king of Niniueth and others the Princely power which they shewed due praise which they merited in medling with these matters impugne the words whereby God expresseth approueth their doings see whether the consciēces of all good men will not detest abhor your wilfull impietie Phi. The Scripture saith in deede they commaunded appointed decreed these thinges but no doubt they were directed by Prophetes and other spirituall Pastours what they should do Theo. What if they were Doth that hinder their authoritie Princes in ciuill affaires are guided and directed by learned and wise Counsellers doe they therefore not commaund in temporall matters neither Or finde you no difference betweene counselling and commaunding Phi. Againe these Princes were before the comming of Christ when as yet there was no supreme Pastour ouer the whole Church Theo. There was an high Priest ouer the twelue Tribes with surer and better authoritie than your holy father can shewe for him-selfe All Israell by Gods owne mouth were referred to the iudgement of the Priestes and Leuites and not to decline from the thing which they speake The man saith God that will do presumptuouslie not harkning vnto the Priest that standeth before the Lord to minister that man shall die This was their commission yet this notwithstanding the kings of Iudah commaunded both Prist and people for matters of religion And so did the Christian Emperours after the comming of Christ for eight hundred yeares that wee shewe commaund both Bishoppes and others yea the Bishoppe of Rome no lesse than others in causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall The particulars I noted before The Lawes were publike
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a