Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	bishop_n	diocesan_n	diocese_n	2,722	5	11.0439	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30650	A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ...	Burton, Henry, 1578-1648.	1644 (1644)	Wing B6176; ESTC R20892	61,118	78

that even above the Apostle John himselfe with other like sutable practises This Mistery growing up and spreading mightily by degrees after the Apostles were dead and so prevailing as a generall deluge over the face of the earth as nothing could bee seene but Diocesan Bishops seas overflowing every where Therefore were there never such Churches extant But suppose there were no examples to be found of it in Church Story which yet we have proved the contrary neverthelesse you know brother when a mans evidences of lands are lost there be publicke Records as the Rowles of Chancerie where they may be found againe And if there they be found will you not allow them because the man cannot otherwise shew them Now we have the sacred Scripture where our Evidences are safely recorded Suffice it then that there we shew them The contrary opinion doth manifestly establish Traditions unwritten as the Papists doe And to give the Reader some intimation how the Churches of Christ came in time and that in short time after the Apostles to lose their liberties I crave leave of you to note that passage in Ambrose who lived within the fourth Century upon 1 Tim. 5. Synagoga postea Ecclesia c. The Iewes Synagogue and afterwards the Christian Church had Elders without whose counsell nothing was done in the Church Which by what neglect it grew out of use I know not unlesse is were perhaps the sl●ath or rather pride of the Teachers whilst alone they would seeem to be some body So Ambrose the Bishop of Millan confessed I confesse I cannot shew many such instances or records as perhaps your selfe in your multifarious reading may observe But this one from such a reverend and ancient author too of pious memory may serve instead of many considering also that this is the greater rarity and antiquity and much to be wondred at how it escaped the expurgatorie Index by those that were the first fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity that they did not quite expunge this record also that not a pin of the old patterne should remaine Now that the Church this Ancient there speaketh of was particular Congregation answerable to the Synagogue governed by the Counsell of its own Elders cannot be denyed Whereby all men may cleerly see in how short a time the Governement of Churches instituted by Christ and his Apostles came to bee changed from being free Churches to become servile and subject to the usurpation of the greater the Prelates and their clergie now making up the Church as if the congregations themselves were no Churchs as being stripped of all their Rights and Priviledges yea and of Crist their King his Kingdome now being turned into an Oligarcy or Oligarchill Tyranny mixed of two of the worst forms of Government though you seem to put Oligarchy in the ranke of the the best but I suppose you would have said instead of Oligarchy having named Monarchicall and Aristocraticall Democratie Oligarchy being Heterogeneall to the other two But enough of this The seventh Question Thus reduced Those Churches which do not conforme their Church-government to some one or other publike forme of Civill Government dividing themselves into many Parochiall Churches Dioceses Provinces but doe gather Churches not out of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Chiristian faith and do admit them into the Church by way of Covenant no one example or direct Scripture Reason or Authority can be produced to satisfie conscience of the lawfulnesse of them But such are the Independent Churches they do not conforme as afore Therefore conscience cannot be satisfied of the lawfulnesse of them The Argument or Question containes many branches scarce reducible to one head but I have bundled them in one coard as well as I could. And for answer first this Question is coincident with all that went before and so is already in that respect answered Secondly Your parallell betwixt the civill association and Ecclesiastick is not grounded on Scripture for neither God taught neither the Churches practised any such necessarie union and dependance of one Church on another though they might have done it and had need of it as being in times of persecution which hindered it not no more then it doth in France now 2. You confidently affirm that all Ecclesiasticall Histories testifie so much which is manifestly untrue as hath been shewed before 3. Though churches springing out of other churches had dependence on them what is this to churches that are far distant one from another and never had such a ground of relation one to another Besides the Harmonie of confessions which you quote for you though I finde not that in those places they say any thing to the point yet Sect. 11. cap. of the Keyes that the Keyes are committed to each particular even the least Ecclesiasticall Society Thirdy Christs true churches here on earth are not to be * limited to this or that place as because there are so many Parishes Dioceses Provinces in a civill State therfore those must be so many fixed Parocihall Diocesan Provinciall churches And here Brother Prynne would reduce tanquam ex postliminio the Provinciall Diocesan Parochiall church Government to the same forme it had before Would you have the Provinciall Arichbishops with their Diocesan Bishops and Parochiall clergie or Priests set up again For a Prouince hath relation to its Provinciall and a Diocese to its Diocesan and a Parish to speak in the old Dialect to its Parish-Priest Da veniam verbo And as for division of Provinces Dioceses and Parishes into so many churches you know where and when it began For in the yeer 267. Dyonisius Bishop of Rome made this division which division turned the churches into a Babylonish confusion when now all that dwelt together in every Parish and so in every Diocese who ever they were Tag and Rag must make up a church as so many members do one body whereas the churches planted by the Apostles were called and gathered out of the wide world where the Word of God came and took place So as not every citie became a church but so many as were called in every citie Paul writes not to all in Corinth but to the church there consisting of the Saints only But you object the gathering of churches not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the christian faith of which forme of congregating churches you say you could never discern example or any direct Scripture to satisfie conscinces We would gladly say Amen to that assertion that the whole Nation is christian established in the faith but if not you dispute ex falso supposito May it please you then brother to take notice of the example both of John Baptist and of Christ himself and of the Apostles who * all of them did call and gather christian churches out of the Jewes church which might suffice to satisfie any mans conscience in this point and so

That the maintaining of such a liberty as you assume here is so we have in part shewed already from the Scripture whence you are not able to bring the least shadow of reason to maintain it Nay we need go no further for the disfranchising of this your liberty but your own words Your words are asistata they cannot cohere in any true Theologicall sense For first we ought not to assume or pretend a liberty as left us of God when we want our evidence and are not able to produce our Charter out of the Magna Charta the Scripture And this brother not you nor any man can do Again nothing is more presumptuous then to attempt to mingle heaven earth together that is to mingle Christs Kingdom with the kingdoms of the world or to these to frame and fashion that which what is it else but to set up a Babylonish Church-government Did the Apostles thus Did they frame Christs Kingdom Church-government to the laws and customes of the Romance Empire Or did they vary their orders for Church-government Discipline according to the different manners and customes of those Nations countreys or Provinces where they planted their Churches Had they one order for the Church of Corinth and another for the Churches of Galatia and a third for the Churches of Asia and the rest No But so ordain I in all Churches saith the Apostle And concerning the collection for the Saints as I have given order to the Churches of Galatia even so do ye So also for making of Ministers and other Church-officers Act. 1. 14. 23. Again Your Church-government must be conceived to be consonant to Gods Word yet with this restriction or limitation that it be also consonant to the Laws and Government under which we live You speak indeed like a pure Lawyer one that will stand for your Profession were this the way to uphold it But cannot your Law and our Gospel cotton together unlesse the Gospel weare the Laws livery like to your Serjeants gown made up of two severall colours ' or unlesse Law and Gospel be woven together into a linsey woolsey garment But what if your Law present stand still in force for Church-government without being repealed Must the Gospel be brought again under your Prelaticall Church-government Or rather why should not a generall law to use your words be enacted to inhibite all formes of Church-government and Discipline which are not every way consonant to Gods Word without this addition And to the Laws and Government under which we live For certainely if the Lawes and Government of the State under which we live be good and just there is no need why you should put upon Christs kingly Government in his Church such hard conditions as not to be admitted but so farre as it is consonant to mans Laws As Tertullian said when upon the Emperour Tiberius his motion to the Romane Senate that Christ might be admitted and enrowled among Romes gods and the Senate refused because they had made a Law that none should be chosen for a god unlesse first propounded by the Senate Ergo nisi homini placuerit Deus non erit Deus Therefore if it please not man God shall not be God So let it be lawfull for me to say If it please not man not the Senate Christ shall not be King his kingdome shall have no place in this or that Nation As if the good Laws of a civill State and the good Laws of Christs kingdome could not ought not to stand together in their distinct forms unmixed when certainly a State stands strongest while most consonant to Gods Word and to the Church-government and Discipline of Christ and not when Christs kingdome and Government is made sutable to the Laws and customes of the State Famous was that Answer of Eleutherius Bishop of Rome to Lucius King of Britaine when this Countrey of Britaine first received the faith being the first Province that received it where the Gospel began freely to be preached without impeachment or inhibition of the Prince as the * Story saith and that without any ceremonies at all King Lucius sending to E●eutherius for some modell or form of Church-Government and Discipline he received this Answer That Christ had left sufficient Order in the Scripture for the Government of the Church and not onely for that but also for the regiment of his whole Realme if he would submit himself to follow that Rule You require of us saith he the Romane Ordinances with the Imperiall Statutes also to be sent unto you which you desire to practise The Romane Laws we may find to be faulty but Gods Laws never You have received of late through Gods mercy in the Realme of Britaine the law and faith of Christ you have with you both volumes of the Scriptures Out of them therefore by Gods grace and the counsell of your Realm take you a law and by that law through Gods sufferance rule your kingdome Now this Eleutherius being the 14th Bishop of Rome by Platina's account it shews unto us the great difference between that and after-times wherein the Mystery of Iniquity grew up to its height in assuming such an unlimited liberty to set up such a Church-Government and ceremonies of humane invention as were haled in by the head and shoulders But brother Prinne you see here how in those purer primitive times even the Bishop of Rome himselfe was so farre from admitting a Church-Government sutable to the severall lawes and customes of every Nation as you would have it as he tels King Lucius he hath both the Testaments by the rule whereof he should not onely see the Church to be governed but his own Realme also Ergo the Kingly government of Christ in his Church is not to be fashioned and moulded according to the lawes and customes of temporall and civill States but contrarily the lawes of Civill States are to be reduced to the rule of Gods Word But you adde also And manners of their people that is in their severall Countries and Common-weales Surely this reflects mine eye upon that Reformation begun in King Edwards reigne But now what Church-Government and Discipline was to be set up Why the manners of the people must be the line and plummet to regulate this building by The people of England had beene so long rooted in a superstitious Egyptian soyle but because fat and filling their flesh-pots with Onions and Garlick they could the better brook the burthens which their Taskma●●ers the Prelates inured their shoulders withall And withall they must have their Masse-Service though translated out of the Roman into the English language This in King Edward his letter to the Cornishmen standing up for their Masse-book stilled the babes when they understood the English Service-booke was no other then the Romish Masse clad in an English weed though since it hath put off many of those ragges but not all it should So much it importeth to have

And so your Argument by crossing shins with it selfe falleth to ground Again your Presbyteriall government hath neither best nor any sufficient warrant as wee judge in the New Testament no nor any warrant at all in Gods word But the true forme of Church-government hath both sufficient and without comparison best warrant in the Scripture And in truth whereas you oppose presbyteriall and Independent as you call it one against the other let me tell you that that which you call Independent is the onely true originall and primitive Presbyteriall Which Presbytery is proper and peculiar to every particular Church of Christ● and is not a Presbytery collective of many Churches by way of jurisdiction one or many over each or of a Nationall Church as you terme it For neither of these can you find either in the New Testamens or in the Old In the old we read of one Church to wit that of the Nation of the Jewes But that whole Church was one intire congregation Act. 7. 38. they had one Church officer over all it is called the Tabernacle of the congregation in the singuler and they all assembled three times in the yeare at Jerusalem in the Temple where they offered Sacrifice and not else where So as the Church was a type of every particular Church of Christ under the New Testament as being both one intire Church and absolute subject to no other form of government but only that of the only Law-giver and Mediator Jesus Christ and no pattern of any such Nationall Church as you would have Every particular Church now consisting of visible Saints is under Christ as the onely Head King Governour Law-giver of it and so is subject to no other jurisdiction then that of Christ his Spirit his Word Were there none other particular Church in the world then one as that of Abrahams Family should it not be a compleat Church untill there were other Churches on whose jurisdiction it should depend though for ordinary Families they cannot have such a number as is requisite to make up a ministeriall body so are bound to unite to others for this end Wee hold communion and consociation of Churches for counsell in doubts and comfort in distresse but we deny any such combination of Churches as whereby the true liberty of every particular Church is taken away And this communion of Churches doth no lesse if not more prevent Heresies Schismes Injustice then your Presbyteriall Nor can you shew reason to the contrary And yet would you have our Churches more perfect then those of the Apostles own planting and gathering as to bee altogether exempted from Heresies Schismes Injustice Did not the Apostle tell the Church of Corinth There must bee Heresies eve among you that they which are approved may be made manifest And could those Primitive Churches after the Apostles preserve themselves from Heresics How soone did the whole world groane and wonder that it was become an Arian And this within the fourth Century after the birth of Christ when the Churches were governed by the Bishops and their Presbyteries And how soone did the Kingdome of the Beast mount up to such a height as it overtopt all the Westerne Churches and brought them under his dominion And for our truly and properly Presbyterian Churches your Independents to which you deny expresse warrant in Scripture the whole New Testament is both an expresse and ample witnesse on our side All those particular Churches which the Apostles planted were all of absolute authority amongst themselves respectively and equall one of the other You can shew unto us no rule or example to the contrary That in Act. 15. is a transcendent and stands alone not to be paralleld and therefore very impertinently objected by many before you as wee shall have occasion to shew afterwards And for pattern in the Primative Churches after the Apostles we are not curious to seeke it in the corrupt current of succeeding ages when we find it the pure fountaine It appeares say the Centurists Cent 1. 7 Tit●de consociatione Eccles. that the Government of Churches in the second hundreth yeare was almost popular every Church had equall power of ordaining or casting out if neede were those Ministers they had ord●ined with other things very materiall in that whole Title as also in the Title de Synodis privatis And for the best reformed Churches if in them we cannot finde that patterne so fully followed as the Scripture holds forth unto us wee cruve leave without prejudice to take it as wee finde it in the Word without the least variation And you may know● in the beginning of Protestant Reformation could they so clearly see in the dawning as wee may now in the meridian if we will but open our eyes The reformed Churches have taken up one or other of them upon the matter the maine things we contend for 1. The Church of Holland receive none to the Table nor have a vote as a member of that Church but such as first give satisfaction to the Elderships and then to the Congregation and 2. have a forme of covenant propounded by them Secondly the French Churches exercise excommunication in their particular congregations though with liberty of appeale And this was the governement of the Primitive Churches in the 2d hundreth yeare as appeares Cent. 2. c. 7. Tit. de Synodis but especially Tit. de consociatione Eccles. So as no long debate neede to be if but Christs word alone may take place without the necessary accommodation of humane Lawes Customes Manners of the people as you doe plead And lastly for appeales in case of Injustice you know brother that if injustice be done in any civill matter if redresse may not be had by the mediation of the Church whereof the parties are members then the Law is open there to appeale for justice And if it be about the Churches censure for some miscarriage of a member towards the Church or any member thereof if the censure bee unjust the party grieved may desire to have his cause heard by some other Churches who may accordingly deale with their Sister-church to require a brotherly account of the whole businesse as is the duty of all the Churches in such cases And if it be in matter of opinion here the appeale lies principally and in the first place to the Scripture as the supreme Judge and if the things be obscure too hard for that Church to resolve by the Scripture then to call in the helpe of other Churches for their best information And in summe brother there is no case can fall out in any Church which hath not as many helpes by a free communion of Churches wherein every Churches peculiar liberties and priviledges are preserved as they ought to be as any you can name to bee in your obligatory combination of Churches wherby the liberty of each Church is by cōmon consent sold over to others by which it ceaseth now to be a free Church

without opposition and why not you and al● others So you O Brother I stand amazed But I go on Then againe the Scripture as it sets downe the qualifications of the members of this body so the forming of them in the body in the parts thereof more principall and lesse superiour and inferiour for order and well-being As Pastors and Teachers Teaching and Ruling Elders Helpes Governments Bishops and Deacons or by what other means soever they are diversified in Scripture And this is one uniforme forme of Government which Christ hath fixed in his Churches without any difference at all but secundum●magis minus as before as lesser Churches have fewer Officers greater moe So as brother if the old Wine be better old Presby●erie old unlordly Episc●p●cy surel the Independents do justly challenge it Which had you once truly tasted of you would never have desired to drink other The Lord remove that aguish humor * Vexatus f●bre recus●t ●ptima Your second Interrogatory is about the lawfull powe● of Civill Magistrates in all matters of Church-government wherein you tax some Independents for extraordinary eclipsing the same Some what some may say is one thing must therfore the Independent Church-government say it too You alledge for this a passage in the Answer of two of the brethren to A. S. for wch one of them is lately questioned but I hope he wil clear himself But the weight of this whole Interrogatory lies in your Marginall note where you peremptorily conclude That the chief Government and ordering of the Church and power of making Ecclesiasticall Lawes or Canons to bind it before the Law belonged to the Patriarks and others was not as they were Priests but Rulers and Fathers of their Families under the Law say you it belonged to Moses to the Kings of Iudah Israel and the morall Assemblies or Congregations of the Princes Nobles chiefe Captains Heads and Elders of the people Therefore under the Gospel by like reason and equity and because it is a part of Christs kingly not Priestly or Propheticall Office it must needs belong to Christian Princes Magistrates Parliaments to whom Christ hath delegated his kingly Office not to Ministers to whom he hath given onely his Propheticall or Priestly Authoritie not the Royall as the Scriptures at large relate nor yet to particular Congregations who are not Magistrates nor higher Powers invested with Christs royall Authoritie So you where you tell us many strange things but prove nothing But brother in such a weighty Argument as this your {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} will not serve the turne yea you here overthrow those Principles forementioned That Christ is the onely King so the onely Priest the onely Prophet of his Church which his three offices are incommunicable to any creature as they are proper and peculiar onely to him He is the onely King c. Now to be solus {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} The onely Potentate the King of Kings and Lord of Lords this is Christs Regall prerogative which is in communicable to any or to all the powers on earth It is no lesse incommunicable then his omnipotencie his omniscience his omnipresence and the rest of his incommunicable Attributes no lesse then his Mediatorship Those Patriarchs and Princes of Israel before the Law and under the Law from Adam to Christ never had this power or prerogative to make Ecclesiasticall Lawes or binding Canons no nor yet Moses no● Kings of Iudah Israel and Generall Assemblies Princes Nobles chiefe Captaines and Elders of the people as you muster them up together in your marginall note A seeming goodly Army indeed but so many shadowes of men for any such power they had as you would with your penfull of ink paint cut unto us And first for those before the Law was given in Sinai had they this power you speak of Cain and Abel brought their Sacrifices What Was it a * will-worship of their own election If so God had regarded Abels sacrifice no more then Cains How then Their Sacrifice was of Gods own appointment Adam had it from God and his children from him For as God revealed to Adam Christ so those Sacrifices types of Christ Whence the learned Interpreter Calvin saith Tenendum est c. We are to hold that the manner of sacrificing was not unadvisedly devised by them but delivered to them from God For seeing the Apostle res●●res the dignity of Abels sacrifice as attributed to faith it followes he offered it not without Gods commandement So as it could not have pleased God had it not been according to his commandement So Calvin Nor is all here expressed no doubt they had an Altar also whereon to offer for the sanctifying and accepting the offering which Altar was a type of Christ the true * Altar to whom Abels faith had respect Though we read not of Altar before Gen. 8. 28. We read also of difference of beasts clean unclean Gen. 7. By all which it is evident that God gave a law to Adam and his off-spring sutable to that in Mount Sinai for a rule of divine worship so also for Church-government And this further appeareth by the Law in Sinai afterwards where Moses is expresly charged to do all things both for worship and Church-government according to the patern shewed him in the Mount as before we noted And when the Temple was to be built God gave to David an exact patern of all things yea of every particular both in writing and by his Spirit not onely for worship but for the whole ministration about the Temple a type of Christs Church under the Gospell so as neither Moses nor Kings of Iudah had the least power to devise any other forme then that prescribed of God The keeping of the Passover once in the second month by Ezechiah was extraordinary upon a case of necessity And for the Kings of Israel will you equall them with the Kings of Judah Had they lawfull power as Jerobam to set up his two golden ●●lvs and so to change the form of worship Church-government When that King A●as set up his Damascen Altar was it by a Regall power invested in him from God So of other Kings of Juda good or bad they had no lawfull power at all to alter the form prescribed of God one jor And therefore brother you are wondred at that being a man of much reading and mightie parts you should utter such strange things ne quid dicam durius as these are and that so confidently when you neither doe nor ever can bring the least proofe yea or colour of what you affirm And therefore your inference upon such empty premises that therefore under the Gospel by like reason and equity it must needs belong to Christian Princes Magistrates Parliaments to whom Christ hath delegated his Kingly office c. is no consequence Whence I note two things 1. Like reason and