Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	bishop_n	degree_n	presbyter_n	2,696	5	10.0082	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91190	A full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government: vvherein the frivolousnesse, falsenesse, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, refelled. / By William Prynne of Lincolnes Inne, Esquire.	Prynne, William, 1600-1669.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3966; Thomason E257_7; ESTC R210038	32,460	24

the false Apostles lyars as he assirmeth but to debate and consider THIS QVESTION AND MATTER whether the Gentiles ought to be circumcised To his fourth I say that though this meeting was occasional yet it i● a sufficient warrant for generall meetings which are usually called only upon speciall occasions of moment In it there was a generall assembling of all the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Hierusalem where there were then divers particular congregations as our Assembly long since resolved from Acts 2. 6. 41 42. 46 47. c. 4. 4. c. 5. 14 15 16 42. c. 6. 1 to 9. c. 8. 2 3 4. c. 11. 1 2. c. 12. 12 13. c. 21. 17 18 23 22. which if Independents deny then they must prove that all the Apostles and Elders at Hierusalem were Pastors but of one and the self-same individuall congregation and then what becomes of their Independent churches which have no Apostle and onely one Pastor but scarce any Elders in them who upon this speciall and some other publike occasions met all together and that not to advise onely but determine and resolve as is evident by vers 6. to 32. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 25. which compared with the Texts of the old Testament in the Margin of my Quere where we finde frequent Nationall generall Assemblies Synods or Parliaments if I may so stile them among the Israelites prescribed appointed by God and no wayes contradicted revoked under the Gospel determining † all Ecclesiasticall controversies setling ordering all church-affaires matters concerning the Arke Temple Sacrifices Passeover Priests Nationall covenants Fasting-dayes Festivalls suppressions of Idolatry false-Worship Reliques of Idolatry and the like are an impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of Nationall Synods Parliaments Assemblies in all Christian Kingdomes Republikes upon the like occasions and that they are endued with equivalent authority there being no one Text in the old or new Testament nor any shadow of reason but meer shifts or obstinacy of spirit against publike goverment order and authority to controll it If any pretend they doe it onely out of conscience if they will but seriously gage their owne deceitfull hearts I feare their conscience will prove but wilfulnesse having neither precept president nor reason to direct it So as I may truely retort his owne calumny against me on him and his that his and their own name will or opinion is their onely argument against this shining truth which all ages Churches have acknowledged ratified practised without the least dispute To my ninth Quere and arguments in it he returnes nothing worthy Reply but upon this Petitio principii or begging of the thing disputed that the Scripture and Apostles have prescribed a set forme of Government in all after ages for the Churches of Christ which he neither can nor endevours to prove and that Churches in the Apostles dayes were Independent though doubtlesse all Churches were then subject to the Apostles Lawes Orders Edicts Decisions though no immediate Ministers or Pastors of them as appeares by their Epistles to them therefore not Independent so as my arguments hold firme and his answers weak As for his retorted argument That the Scriptures were writ in the infancy of the Church Therefore wiser and better Scriptures may be writ now it is a blasphemous and absurd conclusion they being all writ by the spirit and inspiration of God himselfe the very * Ancient of dayes who hath neither infancy nor perfection as the Church hath To his second that I would needs make a Nationall Church State more perfect understanding and wise th●n a congregationall I feare not to averre it since your selves must grant that the Church under the Law was more perfect then that before it the Church under the Gospel more perfect then that under the Law and the Churches under the Gospel at the end of the Apostles dayes when furnished with more divine knowledge Scriptures Gospels Officers and rules of Faith Manners Discipline more compleat and perfect then at their beginning to preach No man doubts that though a * new-born infant and Christian have all the parts and members of a man and Saint yet they have not so much perfection understanding knowledg judgment strength of grace or spirituall wisdome as grown men and Christians An aged expetienced growne Minister Christian is more compleat and perfect theu a new converted † Novice or Babe in grace Ergo a growne and Nationall Church then one but in the Embryo Your Independent Churches in their primitive infancy when they had but two or three members onely in them and wanted both Elders Deacons and other necessary church-officers as Mr. Sympsons church first did I am certain in your own opinion were not so complete and mature as you intended to make them afterwards by degrees a Village is not so complete a Republike or Corporation as a City nor a City as a † Kingdom nor a Family as a County nor a Consistory as a Synod nor a court of Aldermen as a common-councell nor that as a Parliament Therefore an Independent singular congregation not so complete as a Nationall church being oft enforced to pray in the aid of other churches for advice assistance c. as your selves confesse which an whole Nationall Church need not to doe In fine himselfe confesseth that the Apostles made new rules for government and discipline as occasion served and that as God fitted occasions so he made knowne new rules successively by degrees not at once and added new Officers as Evangelicall Bishops Elders Deacons Widowes Evangelists Doctors Pastors Teachers which some distinguish from Presbyters and define to be severall offices Therefore the infant Church in the Apostles dayes was not so compleat perfect in all parts as the multiplied and growne churches afterwards My tenth Quere he wilfully misrecites as he doth the rest else he had not the least shadow of exception against it as I propounded it and then returnes an answer by way of dilemma to it To which I reply That if the Parliament and Synod shall by publike consent establish a Presbyteriall church-government as most consonant to Gods Word the Lawes and Reiglement of this Kingdome Independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit unto it under paine of obstinacy singularity c. in case they cannot really prove it diametrally contrary to the Scriptures and simply unlawfull in point of conscience not by fancies or remote inconsequences but by direct Texts and precepts which they can never doe and that because it is thus commanded established by the higher powers to which in all lawfull or indifferent things wee are bound to render all chearfull obedience without resistance even for conscience sake by expresse Gospel Texts Rom. 13. 1 to 7. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Pet. 2. 14 15. which I wish you would practise better and make make more conscience of then now you doe As for his crosse Interrogatories I answer 1. That if the Popes Councels command lawfull things to those who

pretence of a contradiction till you are able to prove it better then yet you have done Having played the Logicians and contradictors part so well he next betakes himself to his Anti-queries to prove a set church-modell which are three 1. If no preseript forme of church-government in the Word why not Episcopacy especially regulated and moderated as well as Presbytery I answere if you meane it of Lordly Episcopacy there are abundant pregnant Texts against it to prove it opposite to Gods Word If of moderated or regulated Episcopacy the same with Presbytery if the Parliament by the Synods advice unanimously establish it as most consonant to the Scriptures and most agreeable to the civill Government I shall readily submit unto it without opposition and why not you and all others 2. If church-government be suited to States whether Politicians are not more fit to consult about establishing it Why is an Assembly of Divines called to search the Word about it I answer that my position is That every church-government ought to be suitable to Gods Word as likewise to the civill State Therefore Politicians and States-men are fit to be consulted with to suit it best to the civill State and an Assembly of Divines to square it likewise by and to the Word the true reason why in this our Realme and all other Christian States as I can abundantly manifest if need be Ecclesiasticall Lawes and formes of government have ever been setled by Parliaments with the advice of Synods Councells wherein States-men and Church-men have jointly concurred in their deliberations and votes using both the Bible and the Law to settle it and not throwing either of them aside as incompatible as ignorant or lawlesse persons deeme them but joyning both together To his third Anti-quere I answer That it is more reasonable the * State should be subject to Christs rule then Christ to its direction But this Quere is quite besides the Question till you prove infallibly That Christ hath prescribed a set unalterable divine government to which all churches Nations States must necessarily conform and clearly manifest what this Government is in all its particulars Till this be done the sole question is Whether christian Princes Parliaments States Synods under the Gospel have not a lawfull power to prescribe Ecclesiasticall Lawes and forms of Government not repugnant to the Word not to Christ himself as you pretend but to all particular churches congregations subjects under their respective jurisdictions and whether the whole representative Church and State of England in Parliament have not sufficient authority by Gods law to over-rule and bind all or any particular members or congregations of it as well as the major part of an Independent congregation power to * over-vote and rule the lesser part and to order yea bind any of their particular members A truth so clear that no rationall man good Christian or Subject can deny it As for the latter part of this Querie That the Saints think Christ is King alone over his Churches and hath not left them to substitutes and the politick considerations of men to be governed by If he meanes it onely of matters of Faith or of internall government over the soules of men it may passe as tolerable but if he intends it of externall Ecclesiasticall Government Discipline or order in the Church or State as Christian hee must renounce his Oath of Allegeance his late Protestation Nationall Vow and Covenant and make Rom. 13. 1 to 6. 1. Pet. 2. 13 14. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Tim. 2. 1 2 3. to be Apocryphall the Confessions of all Protestant Churches heterodox and deny christian Kings Magistrates and highest civill powers to be Christs substitutes Vicars in point of Government to whom Christ hath delegated his Kingly power as truely as Ministers are his deputies in point of instruction admonition to whom he hath bequeathed his Propheticall office 2. In his answer to my second Quere he first wilfully misrecites it then infers † a blind obedience from it to all superiours commands be they never so unjust or contrary to Gods Word whereas my Question speaks onely of lawfull decrees c. consonant to Gods Word and to the civill Lawes Government and manners of the people to which every Christian in point of conscience is bound to submit without any danger of blinde obedience by the expresse resolution of Rom. 13. 1 to 6. 1 Pet. 2. 14 15. Tit. 3. 1. Ezra 7. 26. Josh. 1. 16 17 18. Heb. 13. 17. If any man deny this verity he must renounce not onely his Christianity but his Allegeance and Humanity too But suppose saith he the whole Parliament and Synode should erre in commanding a Government that is erronious or untrue must we then submit unto it I answer first such an oversight is not to be presumed before it be actually committed and it is neither * christian charitable nor any way of Christ thus to prejudge their resolutions Secondly if the Decrees or Government they establish be not directly against Gods Word nor pernicious to our soules though not altogether such as we could wish yet we ought contentedly to submit unto it without opposition If contrary to the Word we must then passively submit thereto for the present and expect a redresse in Gods due time But if it be such a Government and Discipline under which we may freely enjoy the sincere and powerfull preaching of the Word the due administration of the Sacraments and all other Ordinances of God necessary for our salvation and edification as we may doubtlesse do under a Presbytery and that government our pious Parliament intends to settle we ought cordially and cheerfully to submit thereto yea thankfully to embrace and blesse God for it and can neither waiwardly oppugne nor refuse submission to it without arrogancy contumacy and apparent schisme As for his question concerning my owne and fellow-brethrens sufferings which we deeme our Honour not our Shame I answer that none of us suffered for opposing writing or speaking against the Bishops legall authority or any ceremonies established in our Church by Act of Parliament but onely against their pretended divine right to their Episcopall Lordly power diametrally contrary to Scripture Fathers Councels the best Protestant and Popish Authors the * Statutes of our Realm and against their Innovations in doctrine discipline ceremonies canons c. contrary to the Lawes of the land Articles and Homilies of our Church as the Parliament hath resolved yea all our Books demonstrate and Dr Bastwicke in direct termes in the Preface of his Flagellum And therefore it could be neither pride arrogance nor schisme but meer conscience and duty in us to oppose them in these their usurpations and innovations only contrary to the Laws of God and the Realme If he and his would containe themselves within these our bounds our Church should enjoy more peace their persons more honour then now they are likely to gaine by opposing prejudicating both

are subject to their power they are as well to be obeyed as the commands of * heathen Emperours Magistrates Parents Husbands by Christian Subjects Wives Servants living under them are 2. That there is a great difference between matters of opinion onely and of practise That his instanced points Whether Lordly Episcopacy be jure divino or their making out Processe under their owne Names and Seales be agreeable to the Law of the Land are matters onely of opinion simply in themselves and if a Synod and Parliament should have determined the first and the Iudges resolved the last affirmatively their resolutions could not binde my judgement absolutely so farre as to subscribe their opinions as undoubted truths unlesse they could satisfie my arguments and authorities to the contrary but yet they should ought to bind me for the present so far as to submit to their authority Processe in their own names in things within their legall cognisance So if the Parliament and Assembly shall establish any Church-government as most agreeable to the Scriptures and our Lawes though this binds not all Independents to be simply of their opinion unlesse the reasons and arguments produced for it be sufficient to convince their judgments yet it binds them in point of practise and obedience outwardly to submit thereto and not to separate from it under pain of arrogancy faction schisme unlesse they can clearly manifest it to be absolutely unlawfull and repugnant to the Scripture As for my own objected challenge to the Bishops Iudges about the jus divinum of Lordly Prelacy and Bishops Processe in their own names when I made it I was certain I had both † Scripture Fathers Councels Acts of Parliament the suffrages of all forraigne Reformed Churches Writers and our owne learnedest Bishops Authors in all times against the first and direct Acts Resolutions of Parliament Patents unanswerable Law-authorities and Reasons against the latter Therefore a few Lordly Prelates opinions in their owne case or the subitane forced extrajudiciall resolution of the Iudges not then published could no more conclude my judgment nor make me guilty of arrogancy obstinacy or schism then than their forced judgments for the lawfulnesse of Loanes and Ship-money against expresse Acts and judgments of Parliament oblige me or others then or now not to deeme that taxe illegall and when you can produce as many good authorities Reasons from Scripture Antiquity Acts of Parliament Writers of all sorts against the lawfulnesse of Presbytery as I have done against Lordly Episcopacy by divine right Bishops making out Processe under their own Names Seals and † Ship-mony neither of which were ever setled by any former Parliament and have all bin expresly voted against in this I shall then excuse you from arrogancy and schisme but till this be done as I presume it will never be the guilt of both these wil stick fast upon you if you readily conforme not in outward practice to that Government the Parliament shall establish If they should settle Independency I am certaine you would then write and preach for universall obedience to it which you now publikely call for so eagerly without authority or proof of its Divinity because thus setled without dispute therefore by like reason you ought to submit to a Presbytery or such other Government as shall be resolved on by those Intrusted with this care To my 11. Quere he gives only a negative answer and then declaims against Presbytery without ground or reason But because I have proved the truth of what he denies in my Independency examined and in some following pages I shal not trouble you with any further proof except these two particulars 1. That Independency is in reality meer Separation and Brownism lately christened with this new title to take off its odium and if so I doubt not but it is a nursery of schisms Sectaries c. 2. That we finde by wofull experience what bloudy divisions warres schisms the toleration but of one Religion and Sect in our Realms contrary to that established to wit Popery and Pupists hath produced in all our Dominions to their imminent danger and almost utter ruine what then will the free permission of many Independent different forms of Churches Sectaries do will it not produce many more troubles dangers wars schisms then we have hitherto felt Yea if every man ought to have freedom of conscience to vent what opinions set up what Governments he deems most conformable to the Word in his own private fantie you must indulge Papists this liberty as well as others and then how soone will they over-run us for the future how justly can we take up armes to suppresse them for the present Consider seriously of those and other publike-mischiefes of your way and that liberty of conscience you so much contest for which in truth is nothing but meere lawlesnesse or licentiousnesse to do * what seemes good in your owne eyes as if there was no King in Israel without respect to the publike peace or weale and then happily you may in time discerne recant your errour To my twelfth Quere he onely answers that I fall a jeering of my brethren a palpable untruth and that I put a nick-name on them to make them odious to wit the title of Independents which they disclaime not answering one syllable to the substance of the Question To which I reply First that the title of Independency of which you are now ashamed was at first assumed approved by your selves and many of your party doe still owne though some disclaim it of purpose to evade the titles of Separatists and Brownists with whom you really concurre in practice Besides you very well know that this title was imposed on and owned by you long before I writ therefore I could not father this brat upon you But if you be offended with this name I desire you in your next Pamphlet to discover to us your owne Christian name with the true title of your party and the government you plead for as the only way of Christs institution all which you have hitherto concealed and then God willing I shall give you a further answer to this cavill or retract this title till then I must informe you that it most proper for your party who will have every of your owne private congregations a complete absolute corporation exempted from unsubjected to independent on any other be it a Nationall Synodall Provinciall Parochiall assembly Parliament or Kings themselves in any Church-affaires You must therefore still retaine this Title while● you maintaine such Paradoxes both in opinion and practice as justly appropriate it to you Conveniunt rebus nomina saepe suis being never more exactly verified then in this your suitable name But you object first That you are accountable for your actions to every neighbour Church that shall in the name of Christ require it Secondly That you stand not independent from but hold communion with all other