themselves from Her but submit patiently to her Censures which she should lay upon them If her Censures were just they would have no reason to complain If unjust God would reward them for their Patience and love of Peace §. 23. They were no sooner separated but they heaped on the Church all the most despightful reproaches and Calumnies they could invent and to heighten their Criminal Schism to the uttermost they formed New Societies which they called Churches and therein established New Pastors and a New Ecclesiastical Ministry the very Sin for which God commanded the Earth to swallow Core Dathan and Abiron Amongst the Gifts which our Lord when he led captivity captive received from his Father and bestowed on his Church the principal Gift mentioned by St. Paul was his constituting therein Apostles Pastors and Teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate Succession There is not the least intimation given in Scripture or Tradition that this Succession should ever be interrupted Yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled these Reformers without any Warrant usurp a Power to take all Authority out of the hands of those to whom our Saviour had given it and to bestow it according to their own pleasure thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of Gods Church as far as lyes in their Power through the whole World If Christ himself had thus without testifying his Authority by Miracles dealt with the Iewish Synagogue he would not have expected belief nor been able to answer that Question proposed to Him By what authority dost thou these things and who gave thee this Authority Luke 20. 2. Yet all this our late Reformers have done without ever pretending to one Miracle Into whatever place they come through the whole earth they as far as their Secular power extends degrade and chase away all Bishops Priests and Pastors professing the Catholic Religion they take Authority to defame them as false Pastors and true Wolves they denounce Anathemas against them they incite their Subjects to rebel defraud and persecute them as if God had given his iron Rod into the hands of these Gladiators and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance No man takes his Power of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but he that is called as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. Who called these men to the Office of Preaching and governing Christians Who invested them with such Authority If we consult their own Stories we shall find the prime Ministers in the principal Cities of France constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of Tradesmen There have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual Priests once they had a Bishop Apostates from the Catholic Church whom they might employ in the Office of Preaching and Praying in their Synagogues and by that means make a shew that some of their Ministers were indeed Clergymen who had an ordinary Vocation But such hatred they bear to all Ecclesiastical Order that even these shall not be admitted into the Presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary Vocation and receiving their Commission by a New imposition of hands of Lay-Ministers In a word I should weary both you and my self if I should enumerate all the enormities of your first Reformation If you have a mind you may receive sufficient information in a late Book written in French the Title whereof is in English Legitimate Prejudgments against Calvinists in which the learned Author demonstrates by several titles as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first Reformers by want of Mission by the evidence of their being guilty of Schism by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a New Ecclesiastical Ministry by the Spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them by their peculiar most monstrous Doctrines taught by them by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their Disciples in Christian verities c. By these Marks I say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their Pretended Reform'd Religion being manifestly prejudged and self condemned §. 24. Prot. But surely Sir you will not apply this to the Reformed Church of England and particularly that charge concerning the want of Lawful Pastors We have been far from making a breach in the Chain of Succession since if there be lawful Pastors in the Roman Church we have the like in the English in as much as we received our Ordinations from Rome Cath. For as much as concerns your Ordinations I will not here enter into any dispute neither indeed is it needful But this I may confidently say That since English Protestants have especially of late by many tokens shewed that they esteem Calvinists or Presbyterian Congregations to be true though not so perfect Members of Christs Church as themselves the English Church I may say justifies but however qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of Ordinations and lawful Mission and thereby involves her self in their guilt Again though it were true that the English Clergy have received their Ordinations from the Roman Catholic Church yet sure I am that Church never released them from their Canonical subjection to their Superiors particularly to their Patriarch and Supream Pastor of Gods Church She never gave them power to change the order of administring Sacraments to reverse Ordinances of Superior Councils to expel Catholic Bishops from their Sees meerly because they were Catholics In a word she never gave them authority to alter or rather destroy the whole Religion in a manner professed in England since they were first Christians If English Bishops have received their Character from Rome yet not Iurisdiction or if that also yet certain it is that the same Church which gave them Iurisdiction can also upon their demerits and exercising it contrary to her intention suspend the administration of it which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their Innovations To be brief the English Church challenging Ordination by lawful Succession is thereby obliged to acknowledg the Roman Church to be at least a true Member of the Catholic Church and consequently her self no such Member unless the Bishops here will confess themselves to be Anti-Catholic Bishops and yet most unreasonably pretend an Union with the Catholic Church §. 25. Prot. She does in deed acknowledg the Roman to be a Member but a corrupt Member of the Catholic Church Cath. Consider Sir I pray you that the Rule of Faith obligeth us to believe the Church of God to be Holy as well as Catholic Now if the Universal Church be Holy or uncorrupt then is every Member of it as far as in its Communion Holy and uncorrupt also Which Holiness does not regard the persons whether Governors or Subjects for in the first and best Church of all consisting of the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord only there was a Iudas and a Nicolas A Church is said
the very challenging of such a Right which belongs only to the truly Catholic Church is a strong proof that She alone is that Church which hath a Right to challenge it and would prove her self a false Church if She did not challenge it But because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular Church I confidently believe that if the Eastern Church were united in one Body with the Western you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire Obedience to so great an Authority Prot. This I willingly acknowledg §. 32. Cath. Be pleased then to reflect on some Age when these two great Churches were united for example in the days of St. Gregory the Great Then there was a perfect agreement through the whole World excepting only the Societies of Ancient Heretics acknowledged for such by Protestants Then both Doctrine and Discipline was uniform every where What St. Gregory taught was accepted through the whole Church Yea those parts of his Writings which are most opposite to your Doctrines as his Dialogues c. have presently after his time been translated into the Greek tongue and with veneration received by that Church Whence will follow that what he hath taught us in his Writings touching Points of Religion and which you most mislike was then esteem'd true Catholic Doctrine Now what does St. Gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the Roman Church In all Controversies lately raised between Catholics and Protestants he is constantly and directly against Protestants This is so manifest that it is acknowledged by many learned Protestants who describing the particular Points of Religion professed by St. Gregory and St. Augustine the Monk sent by him to convert England name these Freewill Merit and Iustification of Works Pennance Satisfaction Purgatory Celibacy of Priests publick Invocation of Saints and Worshipping of them Veneration of Images Exorcisms Pardons Vows Monachism Transubstantiation Prayer for the Dead Oblation of Christ's Body and Blood for the Dead the Roman Bishop's Iurisdiction over all Churches Celebration of Mass Consecrations of Churches Altars Chalices Corporals and Fonts of Baptism Veneration of Relicks Sprinkling of Holy-Water Dedicating Churches to the Bones and Ashes of Saints Indulgencies to such as visit Churches on certain days Pilgrimages and in a word the whole Chaos of Popish Superstition as they are pleased to stile it So that Mr. Ascham affirms of our Apostle St. Augustine the Disciple of St. Gregory that He was the overthrower of true Religion and the establisher of all Popish Doctrines and another saith of him That he subjected England to the lust of Antichrist which Antichrist you must take for granted was St. Gregory and therefore after his death went undoubtedly to Hell there to receive his reward Thus evident Convictions forced them to confess that all the Doctrines of Faith now taught were then professed as Catholic Doctrines but gall and malice against the Church suggested such foul unseemly words to their Pens Notwithstanding Protestant Writers when not being engaged in controversie they have occasion to treat of St. Gregory himself they are not sparing in their Elogies of him such as these He was a holy and a learned Bishop He was by Name and indeed truly Great adorned with many and great endowments of Divine Grace and as he is often styled the mouth and shining light of our Lord. He was truly a pious man and for his Christian humility yet more to be praised From his Infancy being addicted to the studies of Piety he retired into a Monastery where shewing a particular sanctity of life and being wholly intent upon Prayer he drew the eyes of all men upon him He did so discharge the Pontifical Office that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him He was exceedingly renowned for Miracles c. Now me thinks Sir the consent of the Eastern and Western Churches under the Government of such a Prelate so versed as he was in holy Scripture witness his Sermons and Commentaries should be so prevalent with you as to make you suspect your own Reason if it suggests to you that the Religion professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous § 33. Prot. But why do you say that the Universal Church in the East and West was governd by Saint Gregory when he himself sharply condemned the Patriarch of Constantinople for assuming such a Title as Universal Bishop which he calls an Antichristian Title Cath. It was indeed a Title full of arrogance and therefore justly condemned by St. Gregory in the Notion in which he conceived it might be understood as if the Patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate Bishop in the Eastern Church For thence it would follow that all other Bishops were only his Substitutes acting by his commission and removeable by him at pleasure Whereas they claim a reception of their Order and Character immediately from Christ alone Such a new Title therefore it was that St. Gregory condemned in that Patriarch and abhorred to accept himself as plainly appears by his Epistles But yet that he had a Superintendence over the whole Church as Supreme Pastor thereof to receive and judge Appeals of Bishops from all Parts in causis majoribus to oblige all Prelates even Patriarchs to the Profession of the Faith established in Councils and the observance of the Churches Laws and to impose Ecclesiastical Censures on all Transgressors of them this St. Gregory challenged and to this the Prelates both of the Western and Eastern Churches also submitted as appears by many Epistles sent by him and Answers received from several Patriarchs and other Prelates in the East §. 34. Since therefore it is confessedly certain that the present Roman Church professes the same Religion which Saint Gregory taught and planted in England which the Eastern Church in those times approved without any contradiction and which is now condemned by Protestants it will evidently follow that in those few Points in which the present Eastern Churches quarrel with the Roman the said Eastern Churches only have been Innovators and consequently that the Roman Church that is all Churches united in subordination to the Prime Patriarch and Pastor still remains the Catholic Church and enjoys the same Authority which the Universal Church in and before St. Gregories days enjoyed So that all Christians who break from her Communion do thereby shew themselves Schismaticks and Self-condemned §. 35. I have purposely made choice to instance in the time of St. Gregory the Great because on the one side several Protestants impute the beginning of the Churches depravation principally to that Age and on the other side Almighty God as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that Age especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all Prophesies foreshewing the glory of the Catholic Church which is the Conversion of Nations from Heathenish Idolatry
to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
by consequence they are exempted from an Obligation of examining particular Controversies which their Teachers duty is to examine for them §. 19. Neither is it natural Reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent Authority before our own simple judgments but as hath been said a Divine Light also appearing in Scripture and in constant Ecclesiastical Tradition the best and safest Interpreter of Scripture There we find the Church called The Pillar and Ground of truth a City at one in it self and set upon a Hill which cannot be hid There we read That every Tongue which shall rise against her in Iudgment she shall condemn that Gentiles shall come to her light and Kings to the brightness of her Rising And that the nation and Kingdom which will not serve her shall perish There we shall find that the least Supream Tribunal on earth to determine Controversies amongst Christians is the Church whom whosoever will not hear is to be esteemed as a Heathen and a Publican such an unappealeable Authority has God established in this Church And by vertue of this Authority General Councils representing the whole Body of Church Governors challenge from all Christians a submission not only of Non-contradiction but also of internal Assent under Penalty of Anathema which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of Christs promises That he will lead his Church into all Truth Jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform Profession of Truth that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against her Mat. 16. 18. which Gates of Hell are by the interpretations of the Fathers Heresies §. 20. These irrefragable grounds from Prudence and Scripture have we Catholics for directing our Faith On the other side not one single Text of Scripture nay moreover not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy Fathers which may rationally incourage a Christian to prefer his own sence of Scripture before that of the Church whereas whole Books have been written by them of the Churches unity authority indefectibility and universality Now Sir who can resist who can hold out against such a Battery Prot. Well Sir how prevalent soever this Discourse may seem to you to be against us whom you style Schismatics it will prove of little advantage to you Roman Catholics for although we grant that there is but one Catholic Church out of which there is no Salvation yet this does not prove the Roman to be this Church the Roman I say which is but a particular Church and she being as we are perswaded guilty of teaching and practising many false Doctrines and manifold Superstitions and Idolatry we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her §. 21. Cath. Sir this is the ordinary artifice of your Protestant Writers when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of Heresie and Schism to impute to the Church many Errors and sinful Practices in which foresooth their tender consciences dare not joyn This they do to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from Schism till after a full discussion of all other Controversies touching differences about any particular Errors supposed to be in the Church which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand considering mens general incapacity and if undertaken by the Learned would scarce ever have an end But this is most unreasonable because though it were true that the Church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching Errors yet are Protestants justly and unanswerably charged with Schism in a high degree in as much as they remain divided not from the Roman only but all Patriarchal and all other Churches existent before their Separation So that if there be such a Crime as Schism they are manifestly guilty of it and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their Communion To make this charge good against them it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all Christians and of themselves also viz. That there always has been is and shall ever remain a Holy Catholic Church of Christ on Earth from which Separation upon any pretence whatsoever is damnable This Church therefore wheresoever it is was in being when they divided from the Roman and can they pretend that they are Members of this Church There is not a Society in the world older than theirs or other than the Roman Church with which they entertain any communion at all to whose consession of Faith they will subscribe and to whose Laws and Government they will submit but on the contrary condemn its Doctrines Laws and Government The consciousness of this forced the principal Patriarch of Schism Calvin to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world Now it being impossible for Protestants to excuse much less to justifie their manifest Schism to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular Points of Doctrine As long as the charge of Schisin subsists uncleared by them and this Schism grounded on pretended dangerous Errors in the Catholic Church being Schismatics they are Heretics too and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to when they would raise particular controversies since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates §. 22. Schism therefore in its lowest qualification considered only as disobedience to lawful Ecclesiastical Authority being even in the judgment of learned Protestants a most horrible Sin a tearing in pieces the Mystical Body of Christ There are one or two special Aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in Protestants I mean those Reformers abroad and antiently in Scotland Calvinists Presbyterians Lutherans Anabaptists c. They were once Members of the roman-catholic-Roman-Catholic-Church which they then esteemed to be that Church which they believed in the Creed It hapned that their Prime Patriarchs Luther Calvin Zwinglius c. having conceived some discontent either against the Governors or some prevailing party in that Church which obstructed their profits or against the Laws of it which restrained their lusts after Women grew angry and began to quarrel with the Church her self and to study to disgrace her for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her Doctrines Then Pride and revenge inspiring them against these they made objections yet not so oft against the Churche's own Doctrines as the Tenents of particular Catholick Writers and most oft they directed their most bitter Invectives against personal miscarriages for all which the Church must be answerable And after all this publishing Liberty from Laws which restrained Concupiscence they quickly found Favorites and Followers thus Sects were first composed But if there had been in any of them either Humility or Love of Peace in case they had been perswaded there had been Errors in the Church her self to which they could not subscribe they would not thereupon separate
to be Holy when it teaches Truth and Holiness So is the Universal Church Holy and so is every Member in its Communion Since that which makes it a Member in its Communion is its agreement with the whole in Doctrines taught by it both regarding Faith and Manners And from hence it follows that to ascribe Error and Corruption to any Church which is acknowledged a Member of the Catholic Church and for such pretended Errors to break off Communion with it is to do the same to the Universal Church and consequently to contradict an Article of Faith Now that this is the condition of the English-Church is manifest For since all Christians are under pain of damnation obliged to live in Communion with the Universal Church by being obedient to it's Laws and Governors as also to believe that this Universal Church is at this day extant where can an English Protestant hope to find this Church if not in the Roman Communion In the Greek-Church he will find the same Doctrine which in the Roman he calls dangerous Errours as besides the confession hereof by several Protestant Authors formerly hath been of late beyond all gainsaying evidenced by the indefatigable industry of Monsieur Arnaud in his two late Replies to Claude a Calvinist Minister from the Authentick Testimonials and Declarations both of several late Synods and of many Ecclesiastical Persons of eminency both in the present Greek and other Eastern Churches And besides these he will find other Doctrins which we all condemn as Heresies Then for pretended Corruptions in practice the same practices which he stiles Superstitious and Idolatrous principally touching the Blessed Sacrament he will find in the Greek Church far more distastful to him And as for other Eastern Sects besides the same Practises he will find himself obliged if in Communion with any of them to assent to Ancient Universally condemned Heresies Nestorianism Eutychianism Monothelitism c. §. 26. Prot. But no doubt God hath his Elect Servants among them all who are truly Orthodox as we are with whom we may be said to be united in Spirit Cath. Truly Sir this is a meer pittiful dream to talk of Communion in spirit with hidden Christians to you invisible as you are also to them This renders all the Discourses of the Holy Fathers touching the Churches Visibility and Unity utterly impertinent Yea this evacuates the Predictions of all Gods ancient Prophets foretelling the Extent Glory and Victories of the Kingdom of the Messias and it makes void the Promises of our Saviour touching his Church What meaning therefore can you frame to your self when you say You acknowledg a perpetually existent Catholic Church and a necessity imposed on all Christians to live in her Communion §. 27. Pr. We acknowledg our selves in Communion with all Christian Societies as far as they teach Truth and practise according to Christs Law Cath. So you may be said to communicate with Iews Turks and Insidels for some Truths are taught by all these and some of their practises are lawful But is this such a Communion as the Church Catholic anciently or as the First four General Councils required It is manifest that at the time of your first Separation there was not one Society of Christians in the world to whose Profession of Faith you would subscribe in whose Religious Worship you would joyn and by whose Laws you would be governed So that all Christians then living and visible in the World were to you as Heathens and Publicans and you the very same to them Were your first Reformers in Communion with them Certainly you will not say that the Roman Grecian and Oriental Churches though they will not deny but you teach some Truths and sometimes practise virtues do live in your Communion that is That Persons mutually excommunicating one another do at the same time live in one Communion or that Pastors live in Communion with those who renounce Obedience to them and abhorr the Faith taught by them §. 28. P. Why Sir would you have us allow such a way of Communion as you seem to understand to Societies which we firmly believe do teach damnable Errours and enjoyn Idolatrous or Superstitious Practises Cath. No Sir by no means But since there is on earth a visibly holy Catholic Church placed as a City upon a Hill with which you must under pain of damnation communicate in such a manner as Christians did in the time of the first four General Councils I adjure you not to rest where you now are in Schism from all visible Churches preceding your Separation but to find Her out and having found her out to depose an overweening conceit of your own abilities to censure and condemn her Doctrines and with Christian Humility to submit your self entirely to her Guidance by which means you will be sure to find rest of mind §. 29. Prot. This seems to me a task too hard to be undertaken Cath. That which makes it seem so hard to you is perhaps a secret whisper of Nature and self-love telling you that this may expose you to many worldly disadvantages or if not this a strong prejudice by education deeply imprinted in your mind against the Roman Church the condemning and reviling of which is the subject of most Books you read and of most of the discourses and Sermons you hear I name the Roman Church because I am perswaded that if you should happen to entertain any Doubts of the security of the Grounds of Protestant Religion it would not be the Grecian nor any of the other Oriental Churches whose Religion you would put in the scales against it but only the Roman from whence you had your Christianity your Church her subsistence and within the Limits and Iurisdiction of whose Patriarch you live Do I not judg aright Prot. Yes §. 30. Cath. Then Sir though at present you should have no doubts of any Doctrines taught by your Church or rather in it for your self will not allow her the Title of an authentic Teacher neither does she challenge it yet since you have voluntarily fixed your self in such a Church which not pretending to an infallible direction from God cannot with any shew of reason tell you that you are bound in conscience to believe any one of her Doctrines nor that it is a sin for you to leave her Communion and to chuse that of any other Society which you may like better for then all Christians should as well as you be obliged to joyn themselves to the English Church only Endeavour I beseech you with a mind as disinteressed as may be to hearken to what may be alledged for the Right which the Roman Church has to challeng your Obedience so as that the refusal of such Obedience would be an heinous Sin For this Right indeed She challenges and She alone No other ancient Church hath and no par ticular Sect doth or can pretend to it Prot. I am content §. 31. Cath. First then consider that
be raised to the end a heavier judgment should befall those who saw the Church and yet fled out of it Quis numeret testimonia de Ecclesia toto Orbe terrarum diffusa Quis Who can number the testimonies given in Scripture touching the Church spread over the whole earth who can number them There are not in the whole world so many Heresies against the Church as there are Testimonies in the old Law for the Church What page there does not proclaim this what verse does not mention it All passages there cry out aloud for the Unity of our Lords Body for he has placed peace through the borders of Hierusalem Now thou O Heretick barkest against all these Testimonies And therefore that whch is written in the Apocalypse is justly verified in that City Without are dogs Thou barkest against these Testimonies From what Tribunal dost thou judg Thy Tribunal is the presumption of thine own heart It is a lofty but a ruinous Tribunal Exaltare super coelos Deus super omnem terram gloria tua Be thou exalted O God above the Heavens and thy Glory over all the earth My Bretheren we have not seen God exalted above the Heavens yet we believe it But we not only believe but we see his Glory exalted over all the Earth in his Church Now I beseech you observe what a madness it is which possesses Heretics They being cut off from the compacted Body of the Church of Christ and by holding a part being deprived of the whole will not communicate with the whole earth over which the glory of Christ is spread O Heretical Madness Thou believest with me that which thou doest not see and thou deniest that which both thou and I do see Thou believest with me that Christ is exalted above the Heavens which neither of us hath seen and thou deniest his glory over all the earth which we both see In sole posuit Tabernaculum suum He has placed his Tabernacle in the Sun that is in a place manifest to all His Tabernacle is his flesh His Tabernacle is his Church which is placed in the Sun not in the night but in the day Tanquam ille quem catechizamus quaereret diceret quo ergo signo If a Catechumen should be inquisitive and say But by what sign shall I being as yet a little one and unable clearly to discern the truth from so many errours by what mark I say shall I find the Church of Christ to believe which I am obliged by so many manifest predictions Hereto the Prophet as if he had a perfect knowledge of the Catechumens scruples answers teaching him that this is foretold to be the Church of Christ which is raised on high and apparent to all For she is the seat of his Glory For in regard of such doubts as may befal the simpler sort of Christians who may be seduced by crafty men from the Church so gloriously manifest our Lord providing a remedy saith A City which is set upon a mountain cannot be hid Christo tales maledicunt qui Those do blaspheme Christ who affirm that the Church hath perished from off the whole earth and remained only on Africa Geneva England Holland c. §. 2. Of the Catholic Churches Unity and of Schism §. 43. Una est Ecclesia quaecunque illa sit There is one only Church whichsoever that is of which it is written my dove my undesiled is but one she is the only one of her Mother neither can there be so many Churches as there are Shisms O this Position both the Schismatics Donatists and St. Augustin were agreed Perirem si essem departe Pauli I should perish eternally if I were of a party of which St. Paul was the leader How then shall I avoid perdition if I be of the party of Donatus of Luther Calvin Tindall c Quamvis Novatianus Though the Schismatic Novatian hath been put to death for the Faith yet he hath not been crowned Why not Crowned Because he died out of the peace concord and communion of the Church separated from that common Mother of whom whosoever will be a Martyr must be a Member We ought rather to endure any torments than consent to the dividing of Gods Church Since the Martyrdom to which we expose our selves by hindring a division of the Church is no less glorious then that which is suffered for refusing to Sacrifice to Idols Si in Navi pericula sunt If there be dangers to those who are ein the Ship there is certain drowning to those who are out of it In montem sanctum tuum Into his Holy Mountain His holy Mountain is his Holy Church This is the Mountain which according to the Vision of Daniel grew to this vastness from a small stone and breaks all the Kingdoms of the earth and which encreased in greatness till it filled the whole surface of the earth In this Mountain he was heard who said I cryed with my voice unto the Lord and he heard me from his holy Mountain Whosoever prays besides this Mountain let him not hope to be heard to eternal life Many are heard in many of their requests but let them not boast because they are heard The Devils were heard in their request to be sent into the Swine Let us desire to be heard to eternal life There cannot possibly be made any Reformation of such importance as the mischief of Schism is pernicious Nobiscum estis in Baptismo You Donatists are with us in Baptism in the Creed and in the other Sacrament of our Lord. But in the Spirit of Unity in the Bond of Peace and finally in the Catholic Church you are not with us Tenenda est nobis Christiana Religio Christian Religion is to be held by us and the Communion of that Church which is Catholic and is named Catholic not only by her children but also even by her enemies Fieri non potest It cannot possibly be that any one should have a just cause to separate his Communion from the Communion of the whole world Ut hanc omittam sapientiam Not to speak of that Wisdom which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom the consent of people and Nations keeps me the authority begun by miracles nourished by hope encreased by charity established by antiquity keeps me there A succession of Bishops from the Chair of St. Peter to whom our Lord after his Ascension committed his Sheep to be fed to the present pontificate keeps me there Lastly the very Name of Catholic keeps me there which name the Church alone among so many Heresies hath not without just reason possessed insomuch as though all Heretics are desirous to be called Catholics yet if a stranger asketh any of them where the Catholic Congregation meets not any of them has the boldness to shew him his own
the Roman Empire to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions and yet Unity essential to the Church being always to be preserved which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church to take care that the common established Laws former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed to prevent any innovations in Doctrine and also to end Controversies among Catholics if any arise at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them by which all Schisms are prevented and also Heresies that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed and lastly to judg in causis majoribus when quarrels arise among Patriarks Metropolitans c. Thus stands the case and now I appeal to your own Conscience whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church And whether if you were appointed and also enabled to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is there must of necessity be a Government and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves For if as some among us pretend the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters and no degrees of authority among Bishops it could not possibly have happened that a few unarmed Bishops not assisted by Secular Power should so immediately after the Apostles have subdued such a world of Presbiters formerly supposed their equals to their Iurisdiction and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans Primate Patriarks and of all these to the Supream Pastor Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision is very much abated Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this to you formerly Rock of offence I may I suppose proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction Prot. No Sir You go too fast For though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope as has been acknowledged by General Councils and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons since I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs But your Church will not be contented with this for she will extend it also to Temporal matters even to the disposing of Kingdoms deposing of Princes absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it and as by Divine Right Cath. How do you ground such an assurance you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof because some of his Predecessors have challenged it when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due Prot. No truly especially if that Authority to which he pretended endangers the ruine of Kingdoms or the utter banishment of Peace every where For such an Authority I am sure was never established on earth by our Saviour who is the Prince of Peace And that which makes me assured hereof is this because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world he would have left in Scripture or Tradition most express proofs of such his will in a matter of that infinite importance whereas the quite contrary rather appears Cath. You say well But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him or to acknowledg the justice of it Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material But to rectify your mistake I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day and thence you may collect what must be required from you in case you are a Catholic Prot. You will much oblige me therein Cath. Then it cannot be denyed that besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign several Popes in former times have both Challenged and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires Which Iurisdiction if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings either obnoxious and unable to resist or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels Several examples hereof remain in our Records particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third But generally Princes when freed from such exigences have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times and cast our view on the present state of Christendom we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions that not any of them will permit Rescripts Bulls or Mandats from Rome though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs unless touching private inferior persons to be published and much less executed within their states till examined and approved in their respective Councils Nay more then this even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes have always been refused to
Remission and Heaven too for a few Prayers recited for visiting a certain number of Churches or disbursing a small sum of Money Quid ergo verba audio cum fact a videam Cath. All that you alledg being confessed what prejudice can that bring to you or me I told you that several School-men in their Speculations do attribute more to Indulgences then the Church gives them warrant for and this they themselves acknowledg So it fares in all Religions that Opinions do in number far exceed Articles of Faith No wonder therefore if Popes do enlarge their Graces according to the measure of Opinions not condemned And who justly blame them since they themselves reap no profit by all the Alms given Indeed in the former Ages great Scandal was given by the avarice of such as published Indulgences and collected the charitable Alms of devout people Of which Scandaâ— â—â—e Church taking notice utterly abolished that Office and commanded Bishops in such occasions to assume from among the Canons of their respective Churches to be Collectors of Alms withal strictly forbidding them to accept any reward at all for their labour §. 84. Matters standing thus what harm flows to any by Indulgences so published Though perhaps not one in a hundred gains the full vertue of such Indulgences yet something they do certainly gain some reward they will reap from performing the good actions enjoyned which probably would otherwise never have been done by many However they loose nothing at all They are taught not to expect remission of unrepented sins or to gain Heaven by an Indulgence for none are capable of the fruit thereof but such as have with Contrition confessed their sins and received absolution and consequently are in the state of Grace but yet remain obnoxious to temporal punishments from which an Indulgence duely made use of doth free them §. 85. One incommodity indeed may justly be apprehended by a too profuse and frequent concession of Indulgences which is the enervating of Ecclesiastical Discipline to prevent which the Church as I said in the entrance into this Point expresly and earnestly admonishes that the granting of them may be done with great moderation according to the antient and approved Custom of the Church Now If all this care will not yet satisfy you however surely you will have no excuse for leaving the Church upon this account because though there be never so many mistakes or abuses in the ordinary teach of Private Doctors and common practice about Indulgences you will not need to concern your self in any of them since if you think fit you may keep your money in your purse perform your Devotions in your private Closet endeavour to fulfil all Canonical Penances which have been or by the utmost rigor of Ecclesiastical Discipline ought to have been imposed on you for all your sins and so freely abstain all your life time from making use of an Indulgence Prot. Enough hath been said on this subject proceed if you think fit to the next 10. Of Iustification and Merit of Good Works §. 86. Cath. After the discoursing of Confession Penance and Indulgence it will be seasonable and proper to treat of the Fruit arising from or by occasion of them which is the Merit of Good Works and Iustification There is scarce any Point of Catholic Doctrine from which Protestants have sought greater advantage to multiply foolish Books and senceless Sermons then this touching Iustification and oft it falls out that their zealous Invectives against the Church are then most loudand bitter when explaining themselves they presently agree with the Churches sense Of this as soon as I have sincerely acquainted you with our Catholic Doctrine I am content you should be the Judg. §. 87. First then it is acknowledged that the Church teaches That men are justified indeed by the imputation of Christs Iustice and by Remission of their sins but not by these only so as to exclude Grace and Charity shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost that is in effect That God does not justify nor remit sins to persons while they persist in their sins and in a hatred of him Again the Church making use of the ordinary expression of the Holy Fathers teaches That a person justified truly merits eternal Life by his good Works Now this word Merit the word I say but not the true sense of it when they will permit us to explain it is very offensive to Protestants But you having obliged your self to avoid partiality will judg of the Churches sense by what she further adds for explication of this Point and for clearing her self from the imputation of encouraging men to glorify themselves and to trust in their own abilities for purchasing remission of sins and salvation §. 97. Thus then she further teaches it is necessary to believe that sins neither are nor ever have been remitted but by Divine Mercy freely extended to us for the merits of Iesus Christ. Again We are said to be justified freely because not any of those things which precede our Iustification whether Faith or Works can merit that Grace In the third place Eternal life ought to be proposed to the Children of God both as a free Grace mercifully promised to them through Iesus Christ and also as as a Recompence which is faithfully rendred to their Good Works and Merits by vertue of that Promise Fourthly although in Holy Scriptures so much is attributed to Good Works that Iesus Christ himself promises that a Cup of cold water given to the poor shall not fail of a Reward and that the Apostle testifies that our light and momentary tribulation worketh fur us a far more exceeding eternal weight of glory Yet God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord whose Goodness towards all men is so great that he is pleased that the Free Gifts bestowed by him on them should be their Merits I will add only one passage more out of a great heap to the like effect We who of our selves as of our selves can do nothing by our Lords cooperation who gives us strength can do all things Thus man hath nothing in himself for which he can glory but all our glorying is in Christ in whom we live in whom we merit in whom we satisfy bringing forth fruits worthy of Repentance which fruits take their vertue from him are offered to the Father by him and accepted of the Father for him Thus are we instructed by the Church in the Council of Trent and moreover in the Canon of the Holy Mass we are taught thus to pray Mercifully vouchsafe O God to admit us into the Society of thy Apostles and Martyrs not weighing our Merits but pardoning our offences through Iesus Christ. §. 89. Can you now say Sir that the Roman Church teacheth her Children to glorifie themselves and to rely upon their own Merits or indeed to esteem their Merits to
think it reasonable to furnish our selves with such expedients as are proper to put us oft in mind of them which we therefore regard in a far other manner then we do such things as represent to us only indifferent Objects Is not this Sir suitable to Reason Prot. Truly it seems so to me Cath. Then I desire you to examine your self and tell me if whilst your thoughts are employed on vain or perhaps sinful objects one should on a sudden hold before your eyes a Crucifix containing the History of our Saviors Passion would not the fight thereof recal your mind to the contemplation of an Object more noble more heavenly to mediate on which would be very beneficial to you Prot. No doubt it would Cath. Again may not one glance of your eye thereon so refresh your Memory as in a moment to make you call to mind as much of the Story as perhaps the reading of a long Chapter in the Gospel would do Prot. That may be granted §. 94. Cath. May it not likewise have the same effect and be yet more helpful to ignorant persons who cannot read and have weak Memories Prot. It may doubtless §. 95. Cath. And are not such representations beside refreshing the memory proper also to raise in your mind holy affections of love and gratitude to our Saviour Prot. It is confessed But what is all this to worshiping or adoring a Crucifix or other Image Cath. Sir I desire you since these terms of Adoring and Worshiping in our common English are usually made to import the Supreme Honour due to God alone that you would not in imitation of your libelling Controvertists whose only aym is by any arts to render our Religion odious to unwary Readers make use of them in this argument But take the Churches own expression and call the respect we bear to Sacred Images and Relics Honour Reverence or Veneration Prot. I am Content §. 97. Cath. Then Sir give me leave to ask you Whether it is not another kind of special regard which we have to Sacred and Heavenly Objects from that we bear to profane as for example Can you think fit to do all the same things in a Church which you would have no Scruple to do in your house or in an unclean place Prot. No doubt a difference is to be made Cath. And would you not judg that person injurious to our Saviour or to his Blessed Mother who should deface spit upon or defile the Pictures of either of them And on the other side whether seeing another reverently kissing either of them you would not collect thereby that he bore respect to the glorious Persons represented Prot. Let all this be granted Cath. And would you call such a reverent behavior of the latter person Idolatry especially when he with the Church professes that he acknowledges no kind of virtue or Divinity in them for which they should be honoured or that any thing is to be beg'd of them or any trust to be put in them which acknowledgment the Church her self requires from him Prot. I confess I see there no Marks of Idolatry but on the contrary an express renouncing of it §. 98. Cath Well Sir since then Sacred things are otherwise to be regarded then common and profane and again since our Saviour and his Saints may receive testimonies of our Love and Duty as likewise of Hatred and Scorn by our very outward behaviour shewed to their Representations Moreover Since it is that by Representations we are put in mind of Persons and things highly conducing to our happiness and which we cannot without our great prejudice neglect or forget and lastly Since by them the ignorant also may very commodiously be instructed and likewise good affections may by them be raised in all our minds Would you rather forsake the Communion of the Church then with her acknowledg that due honour and Veneration is to be exhibited to them Prot. I have no Scruple to allow thus much Cath. Then surely you will have less scruple to allow the same Veneration to the very Bodies Members or other Relicks of Saints Prot. Be it acknowledged and proceed 13. Of Prayer for the Dead and Purgatory §. 99. Cath. In the next place we will consider what you object against the Churches Doctrine touching Prayer for the Dead which implyes a State in them alterable to the better by our Prayers Alms c. for them Which State is by the Church called Purgatory Now it seems to me a wonderful thing that you should quarrel with Gods Church so as to think Communion with her unlawful because she is charitable and compassionate to her fellow-members as she believes standing in great need of her assistance §. 100. Prot. That which we principally reprehend in this Practice is that your Church without any Warrant from Gods Word will impose this burthen on us Cath. If you had not dismembred that Book of Scripture which the Church once put into your hands you would have found this Duty of Prayer and offering Sacrifice for the faithful departed expresly commended and practised even by the Iewish Synagogue long before our Saviour came into this world So that your Argument is like that of your Patriarck Luther who could not find in Scripture Justification by Works after he had torn the Epistle of St. Iames out of his Book §. 101. Notwithstanding even in your Scripture you find that no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God Neither have you any the least ground to believe that Christians full of many unrepented imperfections are perfectly cleansed by Dying Therefore unless after Death there be a place where they may be purified you most cruelly thrust them without hope of redemption into Hell And this you do in contradiction to the greatest Cloud of Witnesses that I think ever gave testimony to any Divine Uerity For besides a world of passages sprinkled in the works of the Holy Fathers among whom some have written Books on purpose to enforce this Charitable Duty towards the Dead there never was any Church since Christ besides yours which in their Publick Liturgies did not employ their Devotions and Sacrifices for the comfort and assistance of their Dead Brethern Yea even your English Liturgy is accused by Presbiterians and Fanatics of the same criminal Charity §. 102. And as for the place it self in which we believe them to be detained stiled by the Church Purgatory what a deal of unnecessary trouble do your Controvertists give themselves in disputing against the fire of Purgatory and touching the Nature intention and duration of the pains suffered there none of which are defined or mentioned in the Churches Decision §. 103. Your partiality is likewise very unreasonable in this matter For Calvin is by you generally esteemed a Patriark of great Authority among all your Sects who notwithstanding assigns to the Souls of the Faithful after death a certain place out of Heaven in which they expect saith he the