this and all other points of Doctrine Nay that the Popes themselves should be so ignorant of the true ground of this their Authority as to pretend to it not upon Scripture or universall Tradition but upon an imaginary no-such Canon of the Council of Nice That Vincentius Lyrinensis seeking for a Guide of his Faith and a preservation from Heresie should be ignorant of this so ready a one The infallibility of the Church of Rome All these things and many more are very strange to me If the infallibility of the Roman Church be in deed and was alwaies by Christians acknowledged the Foundation of our Faith And therefore I beseech you pardon me if I choose to build mine upon one that is much firmer and safer and lies open to none of those Objections which is Scripture and universall Tradition and if one that is of this Faith may have leave to do so I will subscribe with hand and heart Your very loving and true friend W. C. By Bramhall so you my Lord Bishop Bramhall so I when will you answer him or rather reply to his Answer to Mounseir Millitere he is alive and while he lives you dare not I suppose do it since he Commands as much Learning and Reason as any of you all put you altogether By Hammond Ferne Tayler so you Doctor Hammond Doctor Ferne Doctor Tayler so I nor should I have said less of any of your Roman Doctors so far have I read my Ethicks are all living and can answer for themselves with whom if you and yours hap to Cope I am confident you will fall in the Combate if you Conquer I will be your Proselite not for the strength of your Questions or pinning my Faith upon their Learning Religion Zeal Sincerity Vertue and Wisdom in all which they exceed but for the strictness of my own Conscience so that the Combate be decided before equitable and equall Judges Quest 30 All this is demanded supposing that the Roman Doctors were onely equall to those of Protestants in all the aforenamed Qualities conducing to the perfect Authority of a Master in Christianity But now I demand whether those that have Authority of Teaching in the Roman Church generally speaking in so much as can be prudently deduced by experience from them are not much excelling the Protestant Ministry in all the said Qualities What Councils have they worth the mentioning in comparison of the Generall Councils consenting with the present Roman Church even according to their own Confession as the second of Nice the Great Council of Lateran the Councill of Constance Florence and Trent wherein such multitudes of Learned men and holy Patriarchs Metropolitans Archbishops Bishops Doctors Prelates both of the Eastern and Western Churches unanimously confirmed the Roman and condemned the Protestant Doctrine What proofes of Learning have the Protestant Ministry comparable to those of the Roman Doctors whereof many have written one no small number two others three and foure others six eight ten twelve and some twenty and four and twenty great Tomes in folio and those replenished in the generall repute of Christendom even amongst Protestants also with profound and high Learning Who amongst their Ministry have they who have obtained the universall esteem of Sanctity as hath our Gregory Beda Thomas Bonaventure Antonine Dominick and diverse others Where find they amongst theirs that zeal to pass into the heart of so many barbarous and Heathen Nations to plant the Cospel even with the undergoing of unheard-of Torments and suffering most cruel Martyrdoms as many of the Roman Clergy have done within these late years Let them name but any sole Minister who hath suffered Martyrdom for preaching Christian Faith to Pagans What means have the Protestant Ministery with their Wives Goods and Families to apply themselves to study and devotion comparable to our single Clergy and retired Religions Where is that unanimous consent in all Points of Faith seeing they are perpetually jarring not onely one with another but the same Minister dissenting notoriously now from what they taught twenty years ago amongst them compared to the constancy and agreement of our Doctors What Miracles have any of their Ministery done in confirmation either of their Doctrine against the Roman Church or of the Christian Faith against Heathens as unless all human Faith be infringed many of ours have done both against them and Heathens I could instance in many more particulars but these may suffice for these short demands whence appears evidently That whosoever professes to be led by the sole Authority of Christian Doctors and Pastors must either deserve the esteem I say not onely of an unchristian but even of an imprudent man if he adhere to so undeserving and contemptible an Authoâ—ity as is that of the Protestant Ministry in comparison of the Roman Doctors who so incomparably outstrip them not onely in multitude but in all the motives and perfections which give credit to the Authority of a Christian Teacher Again Answ 30 at your incomparable comparison and with your addition of an undeserving and contemptible Authority in the Protestant Ministery outstript in multitude motives and in all perfections If this be your way to get credit to your cause much good may it do you but on an ordinary wise man I conceive it will not work Had you continued your supposition of Equality betwixt the Roman and Protestant Doctors it would more become you and might have proved a better way to overcome us how much you excell us will presently be seen in your demands The first whereof is What Councils have the Protestants worth the mentioning in comparison with the general Councils consenting with the present Roman Church and then you name five the Second of Nice the great Council of Lateran the Council of Constance Florence and Trent now I must marke a juggle here you name not what you name these Councils for but in the general the particulars must be guest at and I shall guess at them The second of Nice I conceive you name for Images or worshiping of God by Images for untill this Council which was not called untill the Year 787. Images or Worshiping of God by Images was never decreed and what value this Council is of I tell you truely from my Books There were more unlearned and evil-disposed men in it than ever were in any before or almost since it was called by Irene the Empress an Heathen borne converted Christian by Constantinus his Father to whom she was married and suffered her son Constantine to lofe his eyes for withstanding the determinations of this Council so much natural affection she had Called by her and managed by one Tharisius a Lay-man a Courtier and Bishop of one years standing and John Legate of the East Church of whom it is said he was a devout man but of no great Learning and the other two that ruled the rost in this Council were Theodosius and Constantinus of all whom together it hath been said There were
putting to cruell Torments and death so many Priests and Professors of the Roman Religion Fourthly in depriving their Bishops and Clergymen of their respective Church-Governments Dignities Seas Benefices and Churches and setting up others they get livings in their places Fifthly in making it no less then High-Treason which is yet in force either to be Priests or to communicate with them in many Spirituall Church-Offices and Sacraments Sixtly in continuing to this day in a violent detaining of their Churches Benefices Dignities and Spirituall Functions from all those of the Roâ—an profession and holding them in their own hands and all this because they maintain certain pretended Errors which they now confess not to be fundamentall nor destructive of Salvation and consequently that those of the Roman Church have suffered and still suffer all these intollerable injuries for that which even these Modern Authors acknowledg to be no more then a venial and small sin for if it were mortall it would destroy Salvation so long as one wilfully continues in it which they affirm it does not Further by this Acknowledgement these modern Protestant Authors must confess that their former Writers who were of a contrary mind in charging the Church of Rome and the rest with her of Superstition and Idolatry c. and all those who then joyned with them and all their modern Churches and Protestants both without and within England who at this day hold it a point of their Faith to accuse the Church of Rome in the same mannerâ— erre damnably against Christian Truth and so consequently are no true Churches of Christ for it cannot be less then a damnable Error to make it a point of their Faith and Religion to condemn any one much more all the visible Churches of the West nay and of the East too and so of whole Christendom for nine hundred yeares together of grievous Superstition when upon better examination the Doctors of the same Protestant Church are compelled by force of truth to confess that those Churches neither are nor ever were guilty of those horrid Errors and at most erre onely venially and lightly which hinder them not either to be a true Church of Christ or to obtain Salvation Bishop of Cant. p. 129. num 3. Even while they constantly and immoveably maintain them and accuse all who wilfully contradict them and condemn them as erroneous And hence also it follows that seeing these modern Protestant Authors and their party Communicate in Prayer and Sacraments with the Presbyterians and Calvinists who accuse the Church of Rome of Idolatry c. and so put it in fundamentall error and acknowledg themselves to make one Church with them must be guilty of deadly Schisme by that Communion and acknowledgment and consequently so long as they continue in that Communion are uncapable of Salvation Here are many words to small purpose Answ 11 a Question might have been couched in five lines enlarged to five pages my answer must be answerable Know you therefore whosoever you are without a name Protestants are not put to great straits nor desperate acknowledgments they are not ashamed of their first beginners They stand not for the Succession of an invisible Church they acknowledg not for their first beginners of a visible Church Berengarius the Waldenses Albigenses Wicklifsts Hussits whom yet you cannot truly affirm to have been legally condemned for Hereticks but we alleadge for our Predecessors Christ and his Apostles Ignatius Clemens Hegesippus Polycarpus Irenaeus Theophilus Tertullian Cyprian Origan Methodius Gregory Neozes Constantius Magnus Eusebius Casarian Lactantius Athanasius Hilarius Basilius Magnus Gregorius Nyssenus Gregorius Nazianzenus Hieronymus Epiphanius Ambrotius Chrysostomus Cyrillus Theodoretus Augustinus with the foure Oecumenicall Councils of Nice of Constantinople of Ephesus of Calcedon with all the holy company of Saints and noble Army of Martyrs untill the seventh Age against whose positions if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yeild and many more Catholicks since we acknowledge not to succeed the Church of Rome we were and are as the Church of Rome was of the Catholick Church we acknowledge her to be a true Church we deny her to be the true Church she is and we are parts of the true Church yet we not so erroneous as she we acknowledge not to have wronged the Church of Rome we complain that the Church of Rome or rather the Bishop of Rome with his Court hath wronged that Church this Church and with both the whole Chatholick Church by Quittance and by Forfeiture 1. By Quittance the Bishop of Rome hath wronged the Church in assuming to himself the Title of Vniversall Bishop and spirituall Soveraigne and Monarch of the Church which is as inconsistent with a Provinciall Patriarchiat-ship which was never by any nor shall by me be denyed him as Humane and Divine Institution 2. By Forfeiture for if the Rebellion of an Inferior forfeits by renouncing his Loyalty to his Superiour then the Bishop of Rome is notorious in his Rebellion against Generall Councils the onely Supreme Ecclesiasticall power and not onely against a Generall Council the Representative Church but also against the Catholick Church in usurping a Dominion over it And not onely by Rebellion but also by Robbery who but the Bishop of Rome would have robbed the King of England of his Investitures of Bishops which Henry the seventh protested against by his Proctour Who but the Bishop of Rome robbed the King of his Patronages by Collations Provisions and Expectative Graces Who but he robbed the King of England of the last Appeales of his Subjects contray to the ancient Lawes of England I could go on to inferior Robberies committed by the Bishop of Rome upon the Nobility and Clergy of England but I hasten to the rest of your Question We have not condemned your Church of Rome of Superstition Idolatry Antichristianisme c. Private men it may be have the Church of England have not and if the Church of Rome be guilty of such Errors let her free her self The Church of England hath not destroved burnt alienated to secular uses thousands of your Churches Monasteries Townes Citties Villages if any such things have been done let the Actors be quesstioned let not the Church of England be blamed The Church of England hath not put to cruell Torments and death many Priests and Professors of the Roman Religion nor deprieved their Bishops and Clergy of their Church-Governments the Church of England hath onely recovered their own the Church of England hath not made it High Treason to be Priests you know when they are executed they executed for something else then for being Priests The Church of England continues not in a violent detaining of Roman Benefices but in a lawfull possession of their own and all this not for certain pretended but reall Errors which you of the Roman Church do hold and destructive to Salvation to such knowing men as your self though not of the same consequence to
never simpler men for gifts nor worse-disposed men for attempts And now against this Council against us we oppose four Councils for us against you The second of Ephesus the second of Constantinople that of Eliberis and the fourth of Carthage The great Council of Lateran I conceive it alledged for the matter of Transubstantiation and here I note the Antiquity of this Council It was called in the Year 1215. so old is Transubstantiation no older and against this we oppose all Councils and Fathers silence before and before all the institution of Christ himself who sayes The flosh profiteth no thing my words are spirit and the Exposition of this Institution of all Writers until this Council The Council of Constance I conceive it alledged for communion in one kind against which I need not say more than what Gelasius Bishop of Rome it self said Sine grandi Sacrilegio fieri non potest it was high Sacriledge to do it unless you will give me leave to adde Christs own Precept Drink you all of this all Laity as well as Clergy The Council of Florence I conceive it alleadged for Purgatory called Anno 1438. and if I am right in this Contecture I need not say more then what Aâ—phonsus à Castro l. 8. adv Heres verbo Indulgentia hath said the mention of Purgatory in ancient writers is almost none at all and if you will be pleased to name any one Father save Origen untill St. Gregory the Great his time that is direct for Purgatory I shall not much stand upon it since I think it will not much hinder any mans Salvation to believe it or disbelieve it for my part I neither do nor dare nor will believe it The Council of Trent called Anno 1563. I conceive it alleadged for all differences whatsoever betwixt the Romans and Protestants which Council if you can prove was either lawfull generall or free which I yet positively deny in each I shall sit down and in this Council I tell you were not many Holy Patriarchs Metropolitans Archbishops Bishops not one of the Eastern Church and you know the reason of it too For proofes of Learning if the Church of England be not comparable to you in number she hath exceeded you in weight and that this world knowes and you have felt and now you by your policy make the Churchmen of England smart for it For your universall esteem of Sanctity with your Gregory Beda Thomas Bonaventure Antonine Dominick to avoide some stories of some of them The Church of England can produce as great a Cloud of witnesses by the Verdict of all unbyassed men in an Andrewes a Bucheridge a Laud a Montague a Hall a Prideaux and diverse others before them a Jewell a Whitgift a Cranmer a Latimer a Ridley Speak not too much of your zelous passing into barbarous Nations to convert them lest the Indean be brought out of Love with Heaven if the Roman go thither And for our Ministry with their Wives Goods and Families we have little left thanks to you or some as bad as you they can apply themselves to Study and Devotion as well and with less sin then your single Clergy and retired Religions Boast not too much of your unanimous consent untill your Dominicans and Franciscans be at peace about the immaculate Conception of the blessed Virgin untill your Jesuites and Dominicans be at peace about the Aids and Operations of Grace untill Bannes and Lessius be at peace in the sad point of absolute Reprobation untill your Doctors of Sorbon and Lovaine be at peace about the Popes Supremacy untill Venice and Rome be all at peace about the Popes power untill the French and Spanish Papists be at peace about an equality of Subjection to the Pope untill 〈◊〉 â—regory the first and Gregory the seventh be by some 〈◊〉 your selves reconciled about the Title of Vniversalis Episcopus untill all of you be reconciled about the Popes infallibility untill all and every one of you tell the world whether Translation of the Bible by Sextus the first or Clement the eight be the best cum multis aliis quae nunc perscribere longum est For miracles to confirm our Doctrine against yours we need none untill you by a new miracle turne Rome as it is into Rome as it was and then we all meet in an incomparable Authority of one Catholick Church Whether hence be not evidently discovered not onely the insufferable Pride of Luther Quest 31 and the other Originall beginners of any Sect in Protestancy in preferring their sole Authority before that of the Prelates and Doctors of all the visible Churches in Christendom existent when they begun first to preach their Doctrine but the extreme madness of all the ignorant Laity who followed them upon their sole Authority and preferred one single person upon his bare word without any extraordinary signes or manifest proofes from Heaven attesting his Authority before all the Doctors Prelates Councils Churches within the precincts of Christendom both of that present time and for 900. years before And if those were infected with so deep a frensie how can any man be adjudged deservedly discreet and prudent who approves of their proceedings in this particular and sides with them at least in some Article of other in the opposition of the whole Christian world as all Protestants do even to this day Rarely spoken Answ 31 and a fair way to catch birds The insufferable Pride of Luther if he were guilty of it let him answer for it and all other Originall beginners of any Sect in Protestancy Sir it is very well known who said This Sect is every where spoken against yet for all that that very Sect over-spread it self and conquered the whole world and this very Sect of Protestancy hath put a fair beginning to the Conquest of the Roman Doctrine which though now like that Sect under the ten Persecutio◠〈◊〉 somewhat eclipsed hath yet so much light left as to discerne between all the visible Churches in Christendom all Doctors Prelates Councils Churches within the precincts of Christendom and the present Roman and claim none for our beginners but Christ and his Apostles the four Generall Councils and the Primitive Fathers and the Church of Rome it self as it was when it was Catholick and therefore think they are to be judged deservedly discreet and prudent who approve our present Doctrines with the whole Christian world and desert the present Roman Hence I farther demand Quest 32 That seeing on one side the true Christian Religion having the divine Wisdom for its Authority cannot admit of any thing imprudent as properly belonging to it in the choyce of it and on the other side That the Protestant Religion or any Sect whatsoever sprung from it or existent in it cannot be prudently chosen by any unlearned person who is sufficiently informed of the nullity of that Authority which propounds it compared with the Authority propounding the Roman Religion whether I say those
THE XXXVI QUESTIONS PROPOVNDED FOR RESOLUTION OF UNLEARNED PROTESTANTS In matter of Religion to the Doctors of The Prelaticall pretended Reformed-Church of ENGLAND RETORTED For Resolution of Unlearned PAPISTS In matter of Religion to V. H. and V. N. Doctors of the pretended Catholick Church of ROME By T. SVVADLIN D.D. Religio ofâ—o vera quae Deo honorabilior quae paci amicabilior quae Homini favorabilior LONDON Printed by J. G. for the use of the Author MDCLIX THE XXXVI QUESTIONS PROPOUNDED FOR RESOLUTION OF UNLEARNED PROTESTANTS c. WHether every Christian is not obliged to chuse the safest way all things considered Quest 1 to Salvation Yes Questionlesse Answ 1 this Question is pious and must receive an affirmative Answer If the rest prove no worse we shall not 〈◊〉 long at odds Whether that way wherein both parties acknowledge Quest 2 that unlearned men may have possibility of Salvation though one of them say it be with difficulty and danger if they look not well to the Foundation be not prudently to be judged more safe for the unlearned then that which is esteemed safe by one onely patty and that incomparably lesse in Number but by the other incomparably greater party which equallizes the less in all respects requisite to gain Credit and Authority is constantly held to be utterly voide of all possibility of Salvation even for unlearned persons I wish you had not so soon forgot the piety of your first Question it is not Answ 2 it cannot be gâ—â—nted that because the incomparably greater party Authoritatively spoken to take no notice of what followâ—◠〈…〉 Salvation to any of the incomparably less number and that less number acknowledge a possibility of Salvation to the unlearned of the greater party it is therefore prudently to be judged more safe for the unlearned to make choyce of the greater number as the safest way to Salvation For first the incomparably greater number is a Multitude and therefore not the safest way to follow them For secondly the incomparably greater number may with the incomparably conceited Crowes think their own feathers whitest For thirdly your Argument thus retorts upon your self the incomparably greater number and the incomparably less number both confess Scripture to be infallible but the less deny the Pope to be infallible The like is confest of Faith to be a sure rule Tradition is denyed by one The old Creedes both grant a new one is denyed by us To worship God is confest by both but to worship Images or God by Images is denyed by us To trust in Christs Merits is confest by both but to trust in Mans own Merits is denyed by us To pray to God in Christs Name is confest by both but to pray to Saints or to God in the Name of Saints is denyed by us In the Sacrament of the Eucharist is confest by both a Sacrifice Commemorative but a propitiatory Sacrifice is denyed by us A reall presence we both grant but a Carnall we deny The Body and Blood by Institution and Primitive Observation we both acknowledge but an Alienation of the Cup we disclaim In the English Liturgy is no error say some of you in the Roman Missall are many say all of us and therefore by this Argument of yours it is by prudence to be judged more safe for the unlearned to chuse that way to Salvation which is confest by both then that which is conceived safe by one party onely i.e. yours I have been somewhat long upon this and yet must be a little longer because of your Marginall Note viz. Bishop of Cant. Sect. 35. p. 280. Whom you quote somewhat erroniously for he bids Marke it is but a possibility of Salvation he grants to silly souls in the Romish Church but a secure way he denies you and he backs it from St. Augustine Lib. 1. de Bapt. cont Don. ca. 3. Who judged it a great sin to prefer Incerta certis uncertaine and naked possibilities before an evident and certain course And there he gives you a taste too from your own Learned Card. Bellar. lib. 5. de Justif ca. 7. Tutissimum est and afterwards layes you and the Donatists together in this want of Charity amongst you or Charity mistaken by you and lastly desires you that you would not make us as malicious at least as rash as your selves in denying Salvation to some ignorant silly souls whose humble and peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men that profess the Foundation Christ let him that pleaseth read the whole thirty five Section and he will soon resolve which is the safer way yours or ours Whether this be not the present Case betwixt Protestants and those of the Church of Rome Quest 3 according to the acknowledgment of the latest and learnedest of Protestant Authors Bishop of Cant. ibid. They acknowledge the said possibility of Salvation for unlearned persons in the Roman and the Roman Doctors denying all possibility to unlearned Protestants so long as they remaine wilfully in the Protestant Religion Let it be the present Case betwixt us Answ 3 so you take the Restriction of the latest and learned'st Protestant Authors and particularly of that most Reverend Father in God and now with God because his Martyr and summe up your gaines There is a possibility and but a possibility of Salvation for unlearned Papists in the Church of Rome which argues our Charity There is no possibility for Learned or unlearned Protestants say you which argues your malice Cant. p. 285. Yes which likens and compares you with the Donatists The words of the same Archbishop Who galls you thus whether the Sacrament of Baptisme was true in the Catholick Church or in the part of Donatus The Donatists exhorted all to be Baptized amongst them why Because both parties granted that Baptisme was true amongst the Donatists which that peevish sect most unjustly denyed the sound part as St. Augustine lib. 1. Cont. Don. de Baptist ca. 3. delivers it I would aske now the Archbishops own words had not the Orthodox true Baptisme among them because the Donatists denyed it injuriously Now I say pray read the Archbishop on and put the truth into your eyes and tell the world if you see ere the worse Whether all unlearned Protestants Quest 4 who are sufficiently informed of what is heresaid are not guilty of a damnable neglect of their Salvation so long as they remaine Protestants and refuse to be of the Roman Church And why not Learned as well as unlearned Answ 4 certain 〈…〉 they would be in the deeper guilt if there were any 〈…〉 ther because Vivacity of Understanding striving 〈…〉 his own Light makes more guilty then simplicity of 〈…〉 ving can possibly do so possibility of Salvation for 〈…〉 â—â—â—ple man in the Roman Church there is but for a 〈…〉 man one that knowes the errors of the Church and 〈◊〉 know a great many there is not for ought I yet know so much as a possibility Yet
a little more from that most Reverend Archbishop whom you have cited twice before my soul for a simple peaceable believing soul in the Church of England not so for such an one in the Church of Rome no more for him or her but a possibility Whether a person who is in quiet possession of any Goods Quest 5 Tythes Titles Rights or Dignities c. retaine not the Right to all such Goods and is wrongfully deprived of them so long as he neither confesses that he hath no Right to them nor is condemn'd by the clear sentence of any lawfull or competent Judge of sufficient Authority to desine against him but still maintaines his Cause against his Adversary and gives at least probable Answers to all that he alleadgeth against him and pleads to be restored to his ancient possession taken from him by force and violence and whether he who thus violently took the possession from him be not obliged in Conscience to restore it to him again And whether he proceeds not unjustly so long as he retaines it from him I shall answer this impertinent Question by retorting it with a simile more verisimilitude like Answ 5 Whether if a Bishop the Bishop of Rome be the man do wrongfully deprive the Emperour Emperour of Germany be he of his-Rights and Dignities in calling Gerall Councils claiming his Right to that particular and uncondemn'd by the clear sentence of any lawfull and competent Judge c. pardon that Sir I but follow your own example in this very Paragraph doth not sin egregiously in this detension Will you have another Thus whether if a Thief by force get in possession of your 〈◊〉 and goods be not still a Thief so long as he deâ—â—â—â— them and your self a Fool if you lay not hold 〈◊〉 the first opportunity to resume them This is our 〈◊〉 though it seemeth yours your Church the Church 〈◊〉 Rome or rather the Bishop and Court of Rome had â—â—â—â—oched and usurped too far upon the Rights of the Church of England which was alwaies opposed but at last regained though now for our sins or by the sins of others disposed a third way but it was violent and I hope will not be lasting Whether thâ—â— hath not been within the last hundred and fifty yeares and still is Quest 6 the proceeding of Protestants against the Roman Church violently excluding her Bishops Pastors and People from the quiet possession of many hundred yeares continuance of their Doctrine Dignities Titles Governments Benefices Churches Possessions and still retaine them and refusing to restore them those of the Roman Church still claiming their Right and never having been condemn'd by any competent or lawfull Judge nor acknowledging themselves convinced to have obtained that possession wrongfully Sir Answ 6 part of this is true and part of this is false That them whom you call Protestants Catholicks I should have called them have thus dealt with them of the Roman Church for 150. yeares shall not be denyed by me nor will it be denyed by you that they did it justly because the Bishop of Rome had never any universall power untill an usurping Pope Boniface by name from an usurping Emperour Phoras who murthered his Master Mauritius gave him the Title of Universall Bishop and for their robbing the English Church betwixt 600. and 700. yeares the English Church and Churchmen with the consent of King and Parlament have resumed their own which whether you will acknowledg to be a competent and lawfull Judge and your selves convinced to have obtained your former possessions wrongfully I shall leave to wiser men then you or my self to determine Whether the quiet possession of many Ages Quest 7 both of the Easterne and Westerne Churches in their unaâ—â—mous consent of Doctrine and Practise in most points oâ— Controversie betwixt them and Protestants be not a sufficient proof to justifie the said Doctrine and Practise till it be convinced clearly evidently and undeniably by Reason or Authority or lawfully condemned of Error So that it belongs to Protestants who are the Aggressors to convince their Adversaries of Error and not to those of the Romane or Grecian Churches to prove their Tenents by any other Arguments then that of their quiet antient and universall possession though Catholicks be upon the Affirmative and Protestauts upon the Negative as he who quietly possesses the Name Title Armes and Lands of such and such a family hath sufficiently proved that he hath a Right to them and that they are truly his till he either confesse that the contrary is sufficiently proved or that it be lawfully determined against him It is confest Answ 7 that the unanimous consent of Doctrine and Practise of the Easterne and Westerne Churches in all points of Doctrine betwixt them and Protestants would prove some thing of sufficiency but in most points it riseth not to a sufficient proof and yet for your most points you leap before you look for if you look upon the Rites in Baptisme you agree not with the Eastern Church we do nor do you agree with them any more then we do in the point of the Procession of the Holy Ghost nor do they any more yield to you in the Infallibility and Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome so that the consent of the Eastern or Grecian and the Western or Roman is not unanimous in most much less in all points of Controversies against the Protestants Whether is it not a most insolent madness as St. Quest 8 Augustine termes it or an insufferable height of pride for any Christian whatsoever to call in Question much more to censure and condemne as erroneous that which all the visible Churches in the World taught and Practised and a manifest foolery to follow any Teachers and give eare and belief to them who contradict the universall Practise and Doctrine of the whole Christian World Sir Answ 8 had not these words been spoken in relation to them whom you call Protestants and we call Catholicks for the Romans and Catholicks are not Termes convertible or had these words been spoken as St. Augustine spake them in relation to the Donatists plain Hereticks and so condemned which Protestants were never yet lawfully condemned to be these words of youre might have passed and therefore for hereafter good words I pray else your insolent madnesse may make mad-men sober your insufferable height of pride may make proud-men humble and your manifest foolery may make fooles so wise as not longer o follow such Teachers as your selves who for many hundred yeares have contradicted the universall Practise and Doctrine of the whole Christian World Eastern and Western prove you new Rome challenges no more priviledges then old Rome did a Patriarchat-ship and no more prove that Patriarchall power above the Supreme Ecclesiasticall power a Generall Council to which Patriarchall was alwaies subject prove us convinced by either you say something till then I stir not farther in these dirty words Whether the first was not done
simple and well-meaning men amongst you the distinction of your veniall Sins we refer to your selves every sin we say is mortall so long as a man wilfully continues in it knowing it to be sin Nor do we hold it a point of Faith to accuse the Church of Rome of Superstition and Idolatry but if you are guilty of such Crimes look you to it we erre not damnably in saying Worshipping Images or God by Images is Idolatry and therefore for all this are true Churches of Christ we condemn not the visible Churches of the West nor of the East much less whole Christendom for 900. yeares together of Superstition name but one point we hold contrary to the Tenents of the Catholick Church for 1600. yeares I give you a larger time we yield You are come acain to erring venially and lightly to which you had answer before onely take this by way of addition to your Quotation of the Bishop of Cant. p. 129. Num. 3. All that that Learned and most Reverend Bishop saies and grants is that the Church of Rome is a true Church in Effence and this because she receiveth the Scripture as a Rule of Faith though as but a partiall and imperfect Rule and both the Sacraments as Instrumentall Causes and Seales of Grace though they adde more and misuse these And now what you have got by this Quotation when you have understood it you may alter to a better Mode To your last which charges us to Communicate in Prayer and Sacraments with the Presbyterians and Calvinists and so are guilty of deadly Schisme and are thereby consequently uncapable of Salvation I would and do wish you had not spoke false English for we Communicate neither with Presbyterian or Calvinist let them be all one it is all one to me they are at a greater dinance from us then Rome it self And I think the poor Church of England suffers more under one of them then ever she did under the Church of Rome and therefore as yet are as capable of Salvation as you of the Roman Church because we hold of the Catholick in which and which Church onely is Salvation and from which Church if you have made a Schisme by giving the cause of separation let it be your care to return to the Catholick that we may shake hands and be friends Whether it be not a great Argument of security to those who either are of the Roman Church or convert themselves to it Quest 12 that her very Adversaries after so many condemnations of her to hold most grievous and damnable Errors dare not now accuse her to hold any Error destructive of Salvation so that the belief of her Doctrine in every point their obedience to all her Commandments the exercise of all her Practises their praying to Saints reverencing of holy Images adoring of Christ as really and naturally present in the Sacrament c. consist with Salvation And though some say Bishop of Cant. p. 281. though these destroy not Salvation yet they are dangerous points and Practises weakning the Foundation and endeavouring the destruction of it in continuance of time yet who sees not that it is more secure to hold a Religion which makes the Foundation onely weak by their Adversaries concession then to hold theirs which the contrary party most constantly affirms to destroy quite and rase the Foundation of Religion and to make Salvation not onely hard and in danger but utterly impossible till it be deserted Security it may be Answ 12 not a safe security for certainly praying to Saints which hath neither Precept Pattern nor Promise Reverencing of holy Images which hath a direct prohibition if they are not holy and how they are made holy you should do well to tell us adoring Christ as really and naturally present in the Sacrament if by naturally present you understand carnally which hath a direct negation in the Scriptures will not consist with salvation no not with a possibility of Salvation which you might have learnt from the Archbishop of Cant. if you had Quoted him right for in the 181. p. which you cite not a word of any such thing But in the 281. and 282. it is to the purpose not yours but ours and there you shall find thus much with much more a secure way they cannot go that hold with such Corruptions when they know them now whether it be wisdom in such a point as Salvation is to forsake a Church in the which the ground of Salvation is firm to follow a Church in which it is but possible one may be saved but very probably he may do worse if he look not well to the Foundation judge ye So the Archbishop so I and so you have an answer to your 12. Question Whether it be a likely thing Quest 13 that the chiefest of the pretended Errors in the Roman Religion contain any danger of losing Salvation in maintaining them seeing for this 1000 yeares by the common confession of Protestants themselves they have been universally believed and Practised as matters belonging to Christian Faith and Duty both by the Latine and Greek Church and in the belief and Practise of them was the common way wherein Christians were saved which if it were dangerous what other safe way was there wherein Christians might be saved and yet certainly there was alwaies a safe way to Heaven And what likelihood is there that the safe way should be wholly unknown and unpractised for so many hundred yeares together and the common known way according to the full belief and setled perswasion of all the visible Churches of Christendom should be dangerous and unsafe Or what reason can be given that the Professors of the Doctrine of the Roman Church should be in an unsafe and dangerous way before Protestants began seeing they had none in those times to shew them that they were in danger Yes Answ 13 likely enough for the chiefest of the Errors not pretended but Errors in the Roman Religion contain danger of losing Salvation in maintaining them else why did Bellarmine himself the greatest and learned'st Champion the Church of Rome ever had Lib. 5. de Just c. 7. say in regard of the uncertainty of our own Righteousness and of the danger of vaine-glory it is safest to repose our whole trust in the mercy and goodnesse of God And I think and you believe this is one Error which contains Error of losing Salvation for he that stands upon his own Merits totally or partially is very like to come short of Salvation Else King David would never have prayed Enter not into judgement with thy Servant O Lord for no flesh is righteous in thy sight Else the Prophet Isaiah would never have said our Righteousnesse is as a filthy cloath Else Christ would never have Commanded us to confess when we have done all we can to say we are unprofitable Servants Seeing for 1000. yeares by the common consent of Protestants themselves they have been universally believed and Practised
point and Article of Christian Faith as well according to the substance resurget that our Saviour should rise again which Protestants grant to be a fundamentall point as the circumstance of time tertia die the third day Now suppose that some Christian to whom this whole sentence of Scripture is sufficiently propounded should firmly believe the substance of the Resurrection because he esteems it to be a fundamentall point but should disbelieve the precise circumstance of time that it was onely upon the third and no other day I demand seeing both the one and the other is propounded equally as expresly contained in that sentence of Holy Scripture whether he that disbelieves that the Resurrection happened upon the third day and dies in that belief can be saved To your distinction of fundamentall and not fundamentall Answ 15 it is as much yours as ours and what the late Reverend and Learned Archbishop of Cant. answered the Jesuit or A. L. in that point the same I give you and beseech you as you will answer it to Almighty God say whether you do not believe the Jesuit or A. C. was not fully satisfied by the Bishop If you will have more thus Points fundamentall without believing which an ignorant man cannot be saved are set down in the Creed points fundamentall which a learned man opposing that is Maliciously Schismatically Heretically opposing are many more even as many as the Scriptures propose or the Church the Catholick Church either Representative in a lawfull Generall Council or otherwise collected altogether shall determine from the Scripture either Divinely or deductively For your Catalogue and precise number of fundamentall Errors in Faith as it came from a cunning brain so I leave it where I found it To your more modest demand which are destructive of and which are consistent with Salvation I answer impugning any Article of Faith stubbornly and maliciously is destructive of Salvation disbelieving what a Church-shall determine though it consists not with yet is not destructive of Salvation To your Grecian Church erring fundamentally about the Procession of the Holy Ghost I say no more then what some of your own have said though they disagree in words yet they agree in sence and so erre not fundamentally thereby to make it no true Church of Christ but onely circumstantially and so remain a true Church of Christ which if you do not remember you may take it in this Distick Ex Patre Gnato procedit Spiritus Almus Quamvis dissideat nomine Graecafides An Erroneous Church they may be in this particular yet a true Church they are notwithstanding this particular because they deny not the Consubstantiality of the Persons For your lightness of matter which the Creed containes as it came in by a Parenthesis so I wish you had left it out for fear some whether yours or ours I fear both think lightly in time of all The circumstances of Time and Persons Pontius Pilate and the Third day are to be believed as well as the Substance Christ suffering and his Resurrection that is the circumstances being maliciously impugned not simply disbelieved will not consist with Salvation To your precise number of Canonicall Books of Scripture though the Creed define them not yet that doth not argue the Creed not to b◠in them or they in the Creed put both together and you have a sufficient Rule to know which are and which are not fundamentall points Though the Scriptures do not tell you which are and which are not Canonicall yet the Church hath and for all that the Scripture is the Rule of Faith not the Church because the Church is but the Door and Threshold the Scripture the house and Foundation The incorrupt purity of the Originall we enjoy in our Translations because our Translations agree with the Originall nor yet doth it follow that the determinate belief of what is true Scripture is necessary to Salvation that is to all men to all men fundamentall points are necessary to some onely all is necessary Nor is your Example so evident as you would have it appear for you begin it with a suppositum non supponendum make it your own not another mans case and deny the Resurrection of Christ upon the Third day or assign it to another if you dare I dare not nor dare I say you may be saved or shall be damned if you do such secrets belong not to me and I wish you not to be too busie with them lest you scorch your fingers I demand farther Quest 16 That seeing St. Paul Heb. 11.1 saies that Faith is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the substance or ground as the Protestants English Bible of Anno 1648. hath it of things hoped for and is reckoned up by the same Apostle Heb. 6.1 2. amongst those which are called by him Basis the Foundation one of them being Faith to God and the Apostle Eph. 2.20 saies we are built 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 upon the foundation of the Prophets and the Apostles which now according to the Protestants can be nothing else save the Writings of the Prophets and Apostles in Holy Scripture I demand whether to say that some points of Faith are not fundamental or belonging to the foundation be not as contrary to common sense as to say that some stone in the foundation of a building belongs not to the foundation or is not fundamental Sir Answ 16 whether the Translation be Ground or Substance needs not trouble you nor shall it me since the Original will bear either and Faith to God is one of them which are called Basis or foundation And we are built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles may signifie the writings of the Prophets and Apostles in holy Scriptures This and all this will not bring in your demand whether to say that some points of Faith are not fundamental or belonging to the foundation be not as contrary to common sense as to say that some stone in the foundation of a building belongs not to the foundation or is not fundamental Or if it did what harm hence to the Church of England which saies not any points of Faith are not fundamental Further I demand Quest 17 That seeing St. Paul affirms in the forecited place Heb. 6.2 that Laying on of hands amongst many other points is the foundation how Protestants can deny that seeing the Laying on of hands is disbelieved and rejected by them in the Sacrament of Confirmation and by some in the Administration of Holy Orders as a Popish Superstition such Protestants differ fundamentally from those of the Roman Church Or if the Laying on of hands belong to the foundation as St. Paul here affirmed why Annointing with Oyle mentioned by St. James should not also be a fundamental point Or why Laying on of hands being onely as Protestants esteem it a Ceremony not Sacramental should be here termed the foundation and the substance of the Eucharist which all hold to be Sacramental and more than
was one of those blind Guides which whosoever blindly followes is threatned by our Saviour that both he and his Guide shall fall into the Duch Thâ—â— I hope you will grant it was not Pride but Conscience that moved me so to do for as it is a wise humiliation to obey those whom God hath set over me so it is a sinfull Credulity to follow every man or every Church that without warrant will take upon them to be my Guides Shew then some good and evident title which the Church of Rome hath to this office produce but one reason for it which upon triall will not finally be resolved and vanish into uncertainties and if I yield not unto it say if you please I am as proud as Lucifer In the meane time give me leave to think it strange and not far from a Prodigie that the Doctrine of the Roman Church being the Guide of Faith if it be true Doctrine should either not be known to the four Evangelists or if it were known to them being wise and good men they should either be so envious of the Churches happiness or so forgetfull of the work they took in hand which was to write the whole Gospell of Christ â—s not so much as one of them should mention so much as once this so necessary a part of the Gospell without the belief whereof there is no Salvation and with the belief whereof unless men be snatcht away by suddain death there is hardly any Damnation It is evident they do all of them with one consent speak very plainly of many things of no importance in comparison hereof and is it credible or indeed possible that with one Torrent or rather conspiracy they should be so deeply silent concerning this Unum necessarium You may believe it if you can for my part I cannot unless I see demonstration for it For if you say they send us to the Church and consequently to â—he Church of Rome this is to suppose that which can never be proved viz. That the Church of Rome is the onely Church and without this supposition upon the division of the Church I am as far to seek for a guide of my faith as ever as for Example In that great division of the Church when the whole world wondred saith St. Hierome that it was become Arrian when Liberius Bishop of Rome as St. Athanasius St. Hierome and St. Hillary testifie subscribed their Heresie and joyned in Communion with them or in the division of the Greek and the Roman Church about the Procession of the Holy Ghost when either side was the Church unto it self and each part heretical or schismatical to the other what direction could I then an ignorant man have found from that Text of Scripture Unless he hear the Church let him be unto thee as an Heathen or a Publicane or upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Again give me leave to wonder that neither St. Paul writing to the Romans should so much as intimate this their priviledge of Infallibility but rather the contrary put them in fear in the 11. Chapter because they as well as the Jews were in danger of falling away That St. Peter your pretended Bishop of Rome writing two Catholick Epistles mentioning his departure should not once acquaint the Christians whom he writes to what guide they should follow after he was taken from them That the Writers of the New Testament should so frequently forewarn men of Hereticks false Christs false Prophets and not once arme them against them with letting them know this onely meanes of avoyding their danger That so great a part of the New Testament should be employed against Antichrist and so little indeed none at all about the Vicar of Christ and the Guide of the Faithfull That our Saviour should leave this onely means for the ending of Controversie and speak so obscurely and ambiguously that now our Judge is the greatest controversie and the greatest hindrance of ending them That there should be better evidence in the Scripture to entitle the King to this Office who disclaims it than the Pope who pretends it That St. Peter should never exercise over the Apostles any one Act of Jurisdiction nor they ever give him any one title of Authority over them That if the Apostles did know that St. Peter was made head of them when our Saviour said Thou art Peter they should still contend who should be the first and that our Saviour should not tell them that Peter was the man That St. Paul should say He was in nothing inferior to the very chief Apostles That the Catechumeni in the primitive Church should never be taught this foundation of their faith That the Fathers Tertullian St. Jerome and Optatus when they flew highest in commendation of the Roman Church should attribute no more to her than to all other Apostolical Churches That in the controversie about Easter the Bishops and Churches of Asia should be so ill catechiz'd as not to know this principle of Religion The necessity of conformity with the Church of Rome That they should never be pressed with any such conformity in all things but onely with the particular Tradition of the Western Churches in that point That Fryverus and many other Bishops notwithstanding Ad hanc Ecclesiam necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam should not yet think that a necessary nor a sufficient ground of Excommunication which the Church of Rome thought to be so That St. Cyprian and the Bishops of Africk should be so ill instructed in their Faith as not to know this Foundation of it That they likewise were never urged with any such necessity of Conformity with the Church of Rome nor charged with Heresie or Error for denying it That when Liberius joyned in Communion with the Arrians and subscribed their Heresie the Arrians then should not be the Church and Guide of Faith That never any Hereticks for five Ages after Christ were pressed with this Argument of the Infallibility of the present Church of Rome or charged with the deniall of it as a detestable Heresie for that Aeneas Silvius should have cause to say Ante tempora Concilii Nicaeni quisque sibi vivebat parvus respectus habebatur ad Ecclesiam Romanam That the Ecclesiasticall story of those times mention no Acts of Authority of the Church of Rome over other Churches as if there should be a Monarchy and Kings for some Ages together and should exercise no Acts of Jurisdiction in it That to supply this defect the Decretall Epistles should be so impudently forged which in a manner speaks nothing but Reges Monarchas I mean The Popes making Lawes for and exercising Authority over all other Churches That the Africane Churches in St. Austins time should be ignorant that the Pope was Head of the Church and Judge of Appeales jure divino and that there was a Necessity of Conformity with the Church of Rome in