prophecie it vvill make against the Pope of Rome vvho giveth himself out for sole Bishop and all under him his Vicars onlie This is clear from the historie of the Trent Council lib. 7. pag. 599. Father Simon the Florentine there speaketh after the same tenour When it is demanded whither any Bishop be Jure Divino One must answer affirmativelie One onlie the Successour of Peter And thus the famous saying of Cyprian must be expounded there is but one Bishoprick and every Bishop holdeth a part thereof in solidum otherwise it cannot bâ—e defended that the government of the Church is the most perfect of all that is Monarchical but must necessarlie â—all into an Oligarchie All the Popes Prelats did speak then the same language will not this make him solus Episcopus so that in Estius sense he must be concluded to be Rex superbiae because he is sole universal Bishop The primitive Fathers studied modestie charitie humilitie But Head of the whole Church Prince of Priests infallible universal Monarch were names unknown to them Yet this is the Popes motto summarei the great foundation sine qua corruit Ecclesia saith Bellarmin in the forecited place Further worship in an unknown tongue was not heard in the Church till it was commanded by Witalianus in the 7. Cent. saith Platina and Aquinas on the 1. Cor. 14. telleth that the worship in the primitive Church was performed in the vulgar language The mutilation of the Sacrament of the Supper by withholding the cup froÌ„ the people was unknown to ant quitie For Valentia de legitimo usâ— Eucharistiae cap. 10. saith that the receiving of the Sacrament under one kind came into the Church by no decree but by the custom of the people not long before the Council of Constance at which time the custom was made a law The with-holding Scripture from people was detested in the primitive Church Was it not decreed in the Council of Nice saith Agrippa that no Christian should be without a Bible espcially if he could read in Augustin Chrysostom and Hieroms days the people are required to search the Scriptures according to the rule Iohn 5 39. Tutius ambulatur per Scripturas saith Aug. lib. 3. de doct Chri. cap. 28 nor by humane traditions or glosses Some names of things occurring in antiquitie are preserved in the Roman Church but it will be found that the Fathers understood them not in that sense nor made use of them as they do The nature of things new in Poperie is unanswerable to the old names as snal afterward appear By this we may perceive that Popery was not from the beginning The mysterie of iniquitie encreasing vain men set their posts beside the Lords posts their thresholds beside his Ezek. 43. 8. And making up a bodie of superstitious inventions have placed Religion in these which they hold forth to the world as eldest and have so falne out with Scripture truths that they are not ashamed to accuse them and their professours of noveltie heresie c. But be it known to all that we wil have no Religion to be called ours younger nor the Apostles and primitive Christians It shal eitheâ— be sixteen hundred years old it shal be founded on the Scripture sensed by pute antiquitie or else not outs Beside this their foistery that which is foisted poysoneth souls and filleth them with the East-wind For by their merits and mediatours they derogat from the honour of Christ and from the faith of Christians seeing he is is so precious to them who believe 1. Pet. 2. 7. It is not strange that contrar to Scripture they will deny the imputation of the righteousness of Christ Iesus to the blessed Elect and that imputed righteousness of Saints is affirmed by them to profit others and relieve them from temporal punishment As if the death and merits of the Mediatour were not of sufficient value to save us frâ—m all evil They say that no man can have certaintie of SalvatioÌ„ by faith and yet without any revelation they will canonize others as Saints Can any be more certain of the salvation of another nor his own Their doctrine concerning the Priests intention taketh away all certaintie of faith if the Priest do not seriously intend what he professeth to do there is no Sacrament no consecration no ordination And who but the Lord searcheth the heart and knoweth human intentions By making the Body of Christ now in Heaven to be corporally present in the Sacrament of the Supper when it is administred they deny many articles of the Christian Creed they strengthen the heresie of the Valentinians who said that his Bodie was phantastical not real they contradict the Scripture which calleth it the fruit of the vine after consecration Luke 22. 18. And Aug. tract 5. in Iohn who saith that the bread remaineth bread after the consecration and the Body of Christ a real Body after the Resurrection By their doctrine of Free-will they make free Grace to stand at the beck of the wil whither it shal be operative or not Yea they make providence in its acting dependent on the will For this is their tener GOD worketh because the will consenteth not e contra see Bellar de gratia libero arbitrio lib. 4. cap. 15. Will it not follow then that we should thank our will for our Conversion and intreat it to make grace efficacious and providence effectual Seeing it hath a negative voice in all these matters And what is more prejudicial to the providence and worship of GOD or to the efficacie of grace nor this tener which Aug refuteh well in his Enchrid cap 32. By invocation of Saints the worship of Reliques and the whole house of their imagerie they give the glory of the Lord to another and are reproved Is 42. 8. Yea there be many whom they invocat of whom they are not certain if either they were Saints or lived in the world Cassander who lived in communion with Rome acknowledgeth that much superstition is sostered by this way Consult â—1 Is it not then soul-damning By their distinction of mortal and venial sins by Purgatory by prayer for the dead by their absolution under so bare a degree of contrition they make people sin securely for under the name of vâ—nial sins they comprehend grievous crimes as sivearing by the wounds of Christ Per Membra Christi est venialis irreverentia si reverenter juretur nullâ—â—s videtur esse peccatum saith Valentia tom 3. disp 6. quast 7. punct 3. Legerdemaine in vendition ubi quantuns quale mutatur may be venial si materia sit levis saith Tolet. de 7. pecc cap. 49. whereas diverse measures without exception are declared abomination Pro. 20. 10. All these remedies which they apply after death make men less diligent in dutie while they live And if Purgatory be the Popes peculiar as they call it he must have little love to Souls and too much to his own gain who will not
prophecies The Roman Trash may well make seeing men blind but will never make blind men see the right way Fourthly We do not deny ministeriall An. 4. helps to unlettered people for such are commanded Heb. 13. 7. and 17. provided alwayes their faith be resolved into the word of God at least interpretative virtualiter What ever means be used this milk of the Word is the authentick instrument which begetteth faith and it must be received not as the word of man albeit the treasure be in earthen vessels and the milk in a wooden pape The difference of assent betwixt the learned and the unlearned is only accidental and modal the one being more express then the other we Catechise and instruct the ignorant and require them to hear the Church and follow their guides so far as they follow Christ 1. Cor. 11. 1. we hold forth coâ—munia fidei motiva interna 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inward testimonies the common motives of faith reasons and testimonies of old and late and what ever may help their edification but we dare not lead them from the Scripture to men neither will the interpretation of the Scripture permit us to admit of an other determiner And it may be wel enough known by them who understand these languages that these Greek and Hebrew words do thus signifie as they are translated without the help of an infallible decree of Pope or Council thereanent Without this also GODS word can discover it self to be from GOD as hath been shewed already Reason 5. Reading of the Scripture with the privat spirit and taking it up as every one Pa. Rea. 5 thinketh maketh all the controversies in Christendom daily multiplying both Heresies and sects Luther no sooner swerved from the Church and denyed her authority but as soon he broached this principle That every man might take the Bible follow that interpretation which after due diligence used he thought best whereupon preseÌ„tly did spring up an incredible number of different sects Antimonâ—ans Osiandrians Majorists Synergists c. Now hear what Luther himself said of Calvins heresie Tom. 7. fol. 380. I scarce ever read saith he of a more deformed heresie which presently in the beginning was divided into such variety of sects as so many Toads and such disagreement of opinions not one like to another You see then how the word cannot be the determiner of faith which all these sects take with you for their rule yet alone will never agree â—hem As for that you say the scripture hath Divine authority Heavenly majestie and maketh Spiritual impressions on the soul all this I grant if once a man know or believe it to be the word of GOD. Answer First All this is answered to the fourth or fifth question and should not be Pro. An. 1 brought in here yet passing the digression and informality which I hope the Reader cannot impute to me the Defender I answer to the 5. Reason the Scriptures in the Primitive Church were published â—o all this your own Azâ—â—iâ—s confesseth Iust mor. p. 1. lib 8. c. 26. â—he Scriptures in the Primitive Church were to be published throughout all Nations and therefore made common in the most famouâ— languages In Hierom and Chrysostoms dayes the ley people were exercised in reading the Scriptures Espencaeus saith Comment on Tit. 3. 2. it is manifest by the Apostles doctrine Col. 3. 16. and by the practise of the Church that the publies use of reading the scriptures was then permitted to the people The Council of Nice decreed saith Agrippa that no Chriâ—tian shoulâ—â—e without a Bible Augustin alloweth de Doct. Christi the use of scriptures to all for he saith they are not so hard but every one by his use making of them may attain to so much knowledge of them as may further him in his salvation Chrysost hom 3. de Lizaro exhorts all men and women yea Tradsmen to get Bibles Now I pray you to what purpose if they dare not search for the sense of them Secondly It is denyed that when privat Pro. An. 2 men search the Scriptures this is an act of a privat spirit †It may be privat respectupersonae which is publick rationâ— modi medii è contra for such may pray and have the spirit of grace and supplication poured forth on them according to the promise Zach. 12. 10. and none call that a privat spirit so they may interpret Scripture by Scripture and have the gift of it Hear your own Gerson primâ— part de ex doct Si aliquis non authorizatus sit excellenter in sacra scriptura eruditus plus credendum est ejus assertioni quam Papae declarationi i. e. If any not ordained be well instructed in the holy Scriptures his assertion is more to be believed then the Popes declaration Secondly Our Divines distinguish well three sorts of interpreters the first is extraordinar and miraculous 1. Cor. 12. 30. The second is ordinar and ministerial 1. Cor. 14. 32. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets The third is of privat persons who are commanded to â—ry the spirits and are commended for so â—â—ing Aâ—t 8. 28. 29. Aâ—t 17. 11. The first kynd of interpretation is gone the two next are in use as yet but the one is subservient to the other Thirdly â—he different sects that lay claim to Scripture cannot deprive us of the priviledge to search it and make use of it Will any man approve this argument Meat and drink is abused by some therefore none should eat or drink If the matter be indifferent and subject to abuse then we are to restrain our selves of liberty in the use of that in different thing Vâ—tandum estlicituÌ„ non necessâ—riuÌ„ propter vicinitatem illiâ—â—ti Aug. de câ—v Dei lib. 15. But when it is necessar necessitate precepti medii by necessity of precept and mean who can forbid the use of a necessar mean Now it is most necessar to improve the Scriptures by reading understanding application meditation and blessed is he who doth so day and night sitting or standing Deâ—t 6. 6. It is absurd to say â—lbeit Luther and Calvin did differ in some points that he fathered the sects of Germany on Calvin who was as free of Munster malady as the man unborn and was malleus haereticorum as his learned writtings testifie aboundantly In that place cited he speaketh of the swarms of sects which were indeed monstrous like at that time but never imputed it to the use making of Scripture for then he would not have understood himself nor could he blame Calvin for it upon that account seeing it was his own tenet Now Reader stay and impartially consider the weaknes and impertinency of these 5 reasons why our faith should not be resolved into the Scriptures and determined by them For the sume of all is thus concluded The word of GOD is not wel understood by some is evil translated by others and
directly answered by me whither on man or many should be judge of controversies To this he saith I dare not answer because I will not grant the power either to the high Bishop or general council nevertheless he findeth this to have been the constant practise of the Church both in the Old and New Testament established by the express word of God and received by the Fathers in all ages for in the Old Testament from Deut. 17. from 8. to 13. we read that GOD did command the people in matters of controversie to go to the Priests Levits and judge who should be in those days appointed by him for that end saying and thou shalt do according to the sense of the law which they shal teach thee and according to the judgement which they shal tell thee Remark he saith not according to the sense of the law which thou shalt read but which they shal teach thee not taken according to the privat judgement and spirit but according to the judgmeÌ„t which they shal tel thee where God promiseth out of their mouth judicii veritateÌ„ truth and verity in judgement or as you turn it sentence of judgement See for this also 2. Chr. 19. 8. where Jehosophat established what was first instituted Viz. a council of Levits Priests and chief fathers of Israel to judge not only between brethren and brethren blood and blood but also betwixt law and coÌ„mandments statutes and judgements Not leaving law and commandments to the peoples privat reading and interpretation as you do in your rule of faith In the 11. verse he concludeth thus Amaziah is over you in all matters of the Lord where it is evident that the council and chief Priest is established judge of controversie and not the written Word as every one readeth and expoundeth In the New Testament again you have this practise clearly set down Acts. 15. Where Paul and Barnabas though Apostles themselves go up to Jerusalem about the question of circumcising the Gentiles converted to the faith And there was holden the first council in which this is decided not out of Scripture but by the authority of the Council it self It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us said they having the assured promise of the assistance of the Holy Ghost as the Church hath at all time Wherefore after the Apostles councils have decided with the same authority and upon the same infallible ground of the Holy Ghosts assistance promised to the Church Many controversies are acknowledged by Protestants for points of faith without express passage of Scripture Marcion teaching that Baptism should be conferred more then once and Donatists that Baptism conferred by Hereticks should be reiterated as invalid are condemned in the council holden at Rome under Melchiadâ—s Pope in the year 313. now what passage of Scripture I pray you is for this Sâ—bellius putting one person only in the God-head is câ—ndemned in the council of Alexandria under Pope Cornelius in the year 319. but scripture maketh no mention of persons Nestorius putting two persons in Christ is condemned in the Generall Council holden at Ephesus under Pope Caelestin the year 434. Yet neither doth the Scripture speak of thâ—â— The Monotheliâ—s giving to Christ one will in two Natures are condemned in the third general Câ—uncil holden at Constantinople under Pope Agathon the year 679. albeit there be no formal scripture for this So you see it belongeth both in the Old and New Testament to the high Priest and general Council to decide controversie either by Scripture if there be any passage clear for that point or without Scripture by Apostolick tradition conserved in the Church which scripture it self warranteth 2. Thess 2. 15. Hold fast the traditions which ye have learned either by word or our epistle but it seemeth you care not who be condemned or by whom if you take away all power on earth to condemne your selves Every Protestant will be condemned by none but Scripture and yet will make none judge of the Canon Version and sense of Scripture but himself All your answer is that we grant the Promulgation of the law to the pure Gospel Church but you shew not what is this pure Gospel Church neither can you infallibly prove the purity of the Gospel it self or that there is a Gospel or the true sense of the Gospel but by the Catholick Church her authority Hear Aug. contta Ep. fund cap. 5. Where he saith I my self would not have believed the Gospel were it not that the authority of the Church moved me to it Now the Catholick Church is that whose faith is spread through all the world in the Apostle Paul his time which maketh her to be justlie called the Catholick Roman Church and whose faith hath been in all ages since Christ which all the records of the Protestant writters witness of the Roman Church wherein the succession of Popes Bishops Councils is made conspicuous to all who have written Chronology or Church history in every age none whereof make mention of your Church or of men professing your tenets before Luther and Calvin from whom ye dissent in many things Answer first This is a prolix reply the Pro. Du. 1 substance of which might have been taken up in seven or eight lines As it is spacious so it is an impertinent rapsodie and like a beggers cloak clouted here and there with divers parcells without any method or cohesion It seemeth to have been taken out of some Index and cast in here to fill the page For the answer was That the promulgation of the law is not denyed to the pure Gospell-Church which is not the Roman-Church for it is impure Is not this a direct answer You prove that there hath been a Ministerial-Church in the old and new Testament which we doe not deny but this is the point did they so pronounce sentence and decide Controversies that all discretive judgement was taken from people or called they themselves infallible whether they had scripture warrand or not Or wil the promise of presence to the Apostles Prophets and penners of Scripture in measure and duration agree to any Church Officers now on Earth Or should promises made to the Universal-Church agree to any particular Church such as Rome Or will promises made to the collective body of the Church agree to the representative unless these be proved you fight with your own shadow For we are much for the authority of Christs Church and think that her judgment of old and late should sway privat men unless they can prove by scripture or sound reason that she erreth We are much for the authority of all lawful Councils and we give them all reverence in regard of the authority of their constitution but if they depart from the scriptures we owe them not active obedience Well speaketh our learned Camero tom 1. tract de infallibilitate ecclesiae So oft as any thing is decreed by a Council or assembly of men appointed by lawfull autharity
and baptize all Nations To ordain Pastours for edifying the body whose power and calling it is to preach the Word purely to administrat the Sacraments of Baptism and the Supper of the Lord as it was first delivered to rule their flocks as they that watch for souls and should stand and feed in the strength of the Lord to administer discipline according to the word of GOD and to do every thing commanded there which may bring men near GOD and help them forward in their journey to Heaven That Magistrats should be obeyed in the Lord. Parents honoured and husband and wife dwel together according to knowledge as heirs of the grace of life That Masters should remember they have a Master in Heaven and Servants be subject to their Masters for the Lords sake That the Lord to whom we owe all should be loved with the whole heart and have the flower of our affection and that we love our neighbour as our self That we should rather suffer then sin and glorify GOD in every station wherein he placeth us This is the summe of the positives which we mantaine he who will deny that all this is contained in Scripture and consented to by the Fathers hath no understanding either of Scripture or antiquity The negatives of our Religion are points of Popery denyed by us and condemned in the Scripture contrar to all antiquity Such as these That the Pope of Rome is supream infallible Monarch of the Christian Church That he and these who follow him cannot erre in matters of faith That he hath preheminence above the scripture and may dispence with the law of GOD concerning incest murder perjury c. That he may depose Kings Their service in an unknown tongue is contrary to all pure antiquitity so much is confessed by Thomas Cajetan and Lyranus writting on 1. Cor. 14. Their praying on beads a late invention Polid Virgil lib. 5. invent cap. 9. Their carrying of the Hoste by a pompous procession is praeter veterem morem saith Cassander consult art 22. not according to antiquity That Christ is bodily present there and should be worshâ—pped and that bread and wine is no longer there after consecration is not older then the Lateran Council That the cup should be holden from the People is of one age with the council of Constance That the Mass iâ— a proper propitiatory sacrifice for the sinnes of dead and living was unknown to Peter Lombard who saith from Augustin lib. 4. disp â—â— that which is offered is called a sacrifice because it is a commemoration and representation of the true sacrifice made on the altar of the Cross Augustin lib. 20. cap. 21. against Faustus the Manichaean the flesh and blood of Christ before his comming into the world was promised by the similitude of the legâ—l sacrifices in the suffering of Christ 〈◊〉 his flesh and blood was in the veritie and antitype it self exhibited after the asâ—â—â—tion of Christ it is celebrated in the Sacrament of commemoration That none should communicaâ— except such as make aâ—ticulat consession to a Priest was not known in the ancient Church saith Maldon sum qu. â—â— art 11. Where there was only publick confession That Images should be set up in Churches and worshipped was abominated till the second council of Nice The like may be said of Purgatorie worshipping Saints and Angels with-holding the Bible from people c. So the Romish Religion is new and ours the good old way quod primum verum saith Tertul. lib. 4. contra Marc. cap. 5. It is true that the enemy did sow tares quickly in the Church and the mysterie of iniquity did encrease by degrees Yet these were not holden to be de side and made articles of the Christian Creed under the paine of Anathema till the council of Trent then indeed in stead of reformation which occasioned that convention the Trent Doctors oâ— at least the plurality of them gathered the crotchets of some Fathers the disputable opinions of some School-men and making a bundle of all together did obtrude them to be believed by all Christians under the pain of excommunication So that the church of Rome as new dogmatized is no older then the council of Trent and ours is as old as Scripture sensed by the purest antiquity For further clearing beside all I have said formerly you may hear this more how Suarez telleth us that the council of Florence did at first insinuat that there were seven Sacraments but it was no article of faith till the council of Trent the like may be said of the rest So Popery is a superstitious superstructure like an ulcer on the body which was long in growing at last did break out and stain the garments of many in a world When our Lord Jesus dyed he left a Testamen behind him which being opened directeth all his subjects how to carry Papists not content with this rule for ordering his legacâ—e upon a pompous design have formed a dative which they make equal to his Testament which we disclaim and honestly adhere to the first Testament here is the rule of our Negatives It is â—â—â—rasonick bragge for you to say That of an 100. Fathers ye have 99. for your tenets and as untrue that the four first general Councils were for the Popes universal supremacie The Fathers though the mystery of iniquitie was then in the cradle being taken up with other controversies did not purposely fall on these tares which scarcely were come to the blade then For instance the Fathers in the first 300. years whose books are extaÌ„t were Iust Mar. who did writ 150. year after Christ an Apology for the vindication of Christians to the Senat of Rome after another of the samekind to Antonius the Emperor a Dialogue concerning the verity of Christian Religion called Tryphon and some other letters exhorting to moral duties holding forth the Roligion of Christians against Jews and Gentiles but that which is Poperie the source of controversies in the Christian Church was unknown to him The next is Ironaeus who lived about the year of Christ 178. He did write five books against the heresies of his time as the Valentinians Gnosticks Ophites the heresie of Simon Magus Menander Basilides So Popery is not to be found in them unless some of these heresies be found in their skirts The â—hird is Clemens Alexandrinus who flourished in the year of Christ 196. who was a Presbyter of Alexandria the subject he handleth is in three parcels an exhortation to the Gentiles to renounce their Idols a Paedagogy to the Christians instructing them about their carriage and his Stromara which is a Miscellany work against the followers of Basilides Gnosticks c. Origen lived about the same time whose writtings are so imperfect and vitiated that we scarce know what to make of them as Erasmus witnesseth in his edition Tertullian did writ about the same time several books as concerning Patience the Resurrection against the Jews against Marcion Hermogenes
image-worship whither of the true or false Gods which is here forbiddeÌ„ For it is certain that the Golden-call was intended by them to represent the true GOD. Exod. 32. 5. To morrow is a feast to the Lord and 2. Chro. 33. 17. They sacrifized in high places yet to the Lord their God only The like may be said of the Calves at Dan and Bethel Ps 106. 20. And of Micahs Image For be confidently sayeth Now know I that the Lord will bless me Judges 17. because I have a Levit to be my Priest They used not Levits for the worship of false Gods Further the speech of Stephen seemeth to prove it strongly Acts 7. 40. 41. for speaking of Israels worshiping the Calf he saith The Lord for this gave them up to worship the host of Heaven Now when sin is punished by sin that sin which is the judicial punishment useth to be more gross then the antecedent sin which is the procuring cause but the worshiping the host of Heaven is not so gross as the worship of an Oxe therefore they did worship GOD at first by the representation of a Calf yet were Idolaters This answer then cannot satisfie the conscience or reason of any man And admit that the image of false Gods is forbidden in the second Command how dare Papists without warrand and contrar to the word make the Image of the true GOD which he hath expresly forbidden Deut. 4. 12. Seeing Omnis cultus saith Tertullian de Jejunio should be ex imperio divinâ— non ex arbitrio humano Lastly We are forbidden to worship the likeness of any thing in the Heaven above or in the Earth beneath Now the Lord GOD is in the Heaven above gloriously therefore we should not make his Image for to what can ye liken him saith he Isaiah 40. 18. Bellarmin de Imag. and Gregorius de Valentia distinguish the Minor another way and reject the two former answers as extream For first they say that they worship Images properly so they are againâ—t Durand a great Anti-Thomist who maketh them only memorials Secondly They say that they give them not worship equal to the Pattern so they renounce Thomas and all his adherents Valent. lib. 3. disp 6. saith it is not sicut DEO that they worship the Image of the Trinity Bellarmin saith further that it is not Aeque certum an Imagines Trinitatis sint in Templis collâ—candae reperendae Yet say they that veneration suitable to them is to be rendered Which is he ambiguoâ—s phrase of the Council of Trent like the Delphian oracle If this answer hold good then Thomas and all his Clients are guilty of Idolatrie for they give veneration to Images equal with the Pattern all the Thomists say sicut DEO so to the Image Secondly Cultus religiosus est accidens hominis if we speak Physice now gradual difference in these altereth not the kind of worship Therefore according to the rules of Logick the worship is one with the worship of Thomists or else they disclaim a maxime by making the one Idolatrie the other not Thirdly We are forbidden to bow down to them therefore the meanest degree of religious worship is forbidden in the second Command And they who break the least Command and teach men so shal be least in the Kingdom of Heaven Matth. 5. 19. Lastly the seduced people know nothing of this difference Yea Bellarmin thinketh it not fit that in concione â—oram populo it should be divulged and he hath reason to say so seeing they cannot conceive the groundless distinction betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for their Clergie men will not make it hold water Fourthly Some as Eckius in his Enchir answers nothing but this to the argument that it is the tradition of their Church and Command of their Pope which they judge themselves obliedged to obey If this answer be relevant then they were not faulty who with their traditions made the word of GOD of none effect Matth. 15. 6. And Papists are too like the Pharisees in this Secondly By that Logick the Turk may mantain his worship of Mahomet for his Church and Mufti authorize it Thirdly The Pope in his Conclave may bring in the Alcoran the next day for that may have authority from them contrar to the word of GOD. Arg. third If Image-worship be condemned by all pure antiquity then this worship is not only a breach of the second Command but contrar to the custom of all the Churches of Christ Upon which argument the Apostle layeth stress 1. Cor. 11. 16. But the first is true Ergo c. The Minor is proved thus Many of the Ancients as Clemens Alexandrinus Tertullian c. Were against the art of statâ—e making Epiph. in his ep to John 23. of Jerusalem abominateth the putting them up in Churches and saith it is contrar to scripture that any Image should be in the Church of Christ Now if they wer against the making of them against the hanging of them in Churches much more against teligious veneration given to them Secondly the council called Eliber which is as old if not older then the Council of Nice made a decree that no Image should be in the Church ne forte quod in parietibus pingatur colatur least that which is painted be worshipped and till the second Council of Nice which was in the 8. Centurie no such thing as image-worship was approved in the Christian Church Thirdly It is an ordinar objection made by Celsus and all Pagans against Christians as I said before from Lorinus Ye have Nulla Templa nulla simulachra nullas aras quod colitis celatis To this objection Origen and Arnobius answer yeelding the matter of fact and vindicating their way which they could not have done if Images had been in use amongst them Further when Adrian did build a Temple for himself the Pagans suspected that it was for the Christians because it was sine simulachris without Images whence it is clear that the Image worship cometh nearer Paganism then Primitive antiquity See Dâ—laeus de Imagin Arg. fourth That which notwithstanding of all distinctions draweth and driveth people to Idolatrie is abominable but by the concession and confession of some learned Papists the Romish worship doth involve people into Idolatrie therefore it is abominable The Major is proved by reason that when the people made an Idol of the brazen Serpent the statue was brocken and called Nehushtan although at first it was appointed by GOD. The Minor is thus proved by the testimonies of learned Romanists as Polyd Virgil. de invent lib. 6. cap. 13. Many are now saith he become so mad that they worship the Images of wood and stone as if theâ— had sense in 〈◊〉 and put more confidence in them then theâ— do in Jesus Christ or other Saints to whom they are dedicated Cassander consult de imag saith It is too manifest that the worship of Images hath so prevailed that
lamentable that ye resolve your faith into humane testimony yea into that which is a very lie the Popes infallibility Were it not safer to make Scripture your ground then to build upon this sandie foundation and so river your selves incurably into errour Reply You runne out upon the Popes titles till in the end you make him a Demi-God Papist Reply imputing this as that by way of calumny to us Whereas all the Apostles were equal in power and dignity say you Matth. 20. 26. Where brist only forbiddeth spiritual Superiours to exercise that power with pride and tyrrany as did the Princes of the Gentiles but with humility and meekness as himself did Yet he there expresseth a greater and a lesser a superiour and inferiour amongst them as he saith more clearly in Luke 22. 26. he that is amongst you greatest let him be as the lesser and he who is chief as he who would serve them You cite Cyprian saying the Apostles were equal in dignity but suppresing the following words that Christ disposed the order of unity beginning with Peter whom in his epist ad Julianum he calleth both head and root of his Church All that followeth is that Moses spoke unadvisedly the Propher Elisha was ignorant of some things the Prophet Nathan made a retractation and St. Peter controuled the Heavenly vision To shew the Prophets and Apostles were not infallible save in penning the Scripture and so that the Pope is not such This is but a vain rapsodie to colour your own unsetled belief and contradiction in doctrine but nothing against us For suppose they had erred in these things that concerned not their doctrine all that you can inferre by comparison is that the Pope may erre in the like But as in penning the word of GOD they were infallible were they not also in preaching of it Or is not the high Bishop in all Councils as in the representative Church infallible in subscribing approving and confirming her decrees If the same decrees of the Council be infallible So that when you deny the Pope as head with the Bishops in general Councils as chief men to be infallible you deny the infallibility of the Church which I have sufficiently shewed reflecting on your sixth Answer Duply You labour to prove imparity amongst Prote ∣ stants Duply the Apostles from Luke 22. 26. and would have us to believe that the Papal Monarchy is there which is like the consequence of Mr. Vaux in his Catechism proving Image worship from the second Command For it is clear from verse 30. that albeit Kingly government was in the state yet it should not be so in the Church And that tyrranie is not the only thing forbidden here appeareth from this that somewhat is interdicted to Church-men which is granted to others but tyrrany is licensed to none Compare Matth. 20. 25. with Luke 22. 25. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the one place is expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the other Then it is not only inhibited here Beside the 20. Matth. which you call unclear is most clear he that will be greatest seeking to exalt himself shal be least for he shal be abased And be who is called greatest in Luke 22. is opposed to the youngest the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verse So by this opposition the greatest is the eldest or the greatest in gifts who should be humble self-denyed Ministers as if they were not so priviledged See 1. Peter 5. 3. To the place of Cyprian cited ye answer nothing Only you alleage that I suppress what followeth in stead of the citation you take your self to another place ad Julianum where he caâ—leth Peter first in order and this we do not deny But what will that make for his visible Monarchy For sure I am dic Ecclesiae Matth. 18. will resure that to the worldâ— end This is confirmed by Cyprians own practise for saith he Cyprian epist. 6. ad Clerum de cura Paup Ab initio Episcopatus mei nihil statui agere sine consensis cleri plebis See Cyprian epist 52. al Antonium and there you will perceive that your Pope is not like Cornelius of whom he speaketh for he was chosen Clericorum omnium testimonio plebis qui adfuit suffragio The faithful Martyr was much for peace unity and order and being infested with the Novatians he saith inde sunt nata schismata quod sacerdoti DEI non obtemperatur and telleth that by way of regrate But when he writteth to Cornelius he calleth him frater and no more Where then was your Popedom But ye equal your Pope to the Prophets and Apostles who penned the Scripture which is an odious comparison not worthy of an answer But forgetting your self you say the Pope in the Council then it is not the Pope alone of whose Monarchy we are here speaking and ridiculously you subjoyn if the Council be infallible what language is this The Pope is infallible in subscribing the decree of a counsel if the Council be infallible I say neither of them is infallible so your faith is resolved into a lie You would seem to hang the Popes infallibilitie on the sentence of a council if it be so the Pope sealing their decrees is infallible accidentally and relatively not in himself Others hang the infallibility of the Council on the Pope so a fallible council may consequently be infallible and if he ratifie the sentence of a Session it is all one with an Oecumenick-council All these crotcheâ—s are the pillars of your faith which are worm-eaten proppes to which I have spoken formerly in answer to your mentioned reflection 20. Ye make Christ as many Bodies aâ— their be administrations of the Supper § 20 Inst. by that your Transubstantiation Whereas Scripture giveth him but one natural Body which the Heaven must contain till the restitution of all things Act. 3. 21. And we believe in our Creed that he ascended to Heaven from thence he will come to judge quick and dead Ye break not the Bread contrar to the Scripture 1. Cor. 10. 16. Yea ye deny that Bread is there after the consecration contrar both to sense and reason And whereas Christ entered within the Vail not that he should offer himself often An unbloody sacrifice expiatory of sin under the Gospel is contrar to Scripture Heb. 9. 22. Heb. 9. 25. And by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified Heb. 10. 14. Ye make as many bodily offerings of Jesus Christ both for dead and living as there be Masses Reply You have many false accusations Papists Reply as formerly but no witness or warrand It is to be altogether ignorant of our terms to say that we give Jesus Christ as many Bodies as there be administrations of the Sacrament of the Supper For as we teach one and the same Body is given in every one of our administrations So we believe that he ascended to Heaven that the Heaven containeth
errours but when the first seed was â—owne of these tâ—res probably men sleeped and an adversary hath done it Your Anti-Popes made an interruption of succession and possession otherwise their work was non ens If so then where is your uninterrupte I succession And if it be nor such you speak nothing to the point You say I cannot instance that any lawful Pope was deposed by a Council I hold no Pope lawful and your School-men say the Council cannot depose a Pope so it is an unlawful sentence But seeing it appeareth you are of the contrar mind I produced the instance of Eugenius the fourth deposed by the Council of Basil and all the Popes were his successours albeit the council judged Falix the 5. to be Pope But after your manner you pass with silence what you have not mind for You say vacancy for many years maketh no interruption because the Pope is like an elective King and the power in the interim continueth in the Electours This is loose language for once ye make the Popes like the Kings of the Nations against Matth. 20. 25. then ye make no inter-Regnum but seat the power in the Electours If so the power is not of GOD but of man contrar to Scripture Iohn 19. 11. Rom. 13. all that Electours have is the application And if it be theirs originally then they may depose a Pope by the Conclave For ejusdem est author are exauthorare That saying the King dieth not is meaned of hereditary Kings The Pope is not such and you will not say it For Elective Kings the Kingdom by his death wanteth a King as a Burgh doth a Provost If then the seat of the Pope vaiked so long the Church was headless for many years How make you out then the line of uninterrupted succession You come over again upon the call of our Reformers to which I answered formerly that oâ—r Ministers are called of GOD is proved by the success which some of them had in converting confirming convincing souls see Ier. 23. 32. they who runne unsent profit not at all but they have edified many and turned them from darkness to light We say not that the call of Luther and Calvin was immediat and wholly extraordinar But admit it were so it needed not miracles for the Baptist wrought no miracles yet was called extraordinarily What our Lord Jesus and the Apostles did that way are ours for use and aggravateth the sin of those who will not believe Gospel truths The place cited by you Iâ— 15. implyeth no more yet it is well known that Luther Calvin Knox Wishart Welsh Davidson were more then ordinar men and had the spirit of prophecie in some measure But we will not lay weight on these things seeing we have a more sure word of prophecie to which we are bound to take heed And this doth warrand us to purge out the old leaven with both out hands that we may become a new lump And no more is designed by our Reformation To conclude this then Our first Reformers had as lawful ordination as the Roman Kirk could give them And this is a strong argument ad hominem Secondly The power which that ordination gave them you say was to edification we are perswaded they made use of that in a Scripture way and edified more in one year then ye did in many If any man called to the work of the Gospel oppose the errours of many can that strengthen Sectaries Did not Paphnutius oppose a whole Council and was commended for it because he walked according to the rule and had Scripture on his side Did not Athanasius oppose the whole world almost turned Arrian and who ever blamed him for so doing The case is the same these called men adhered to the divine commission and opposed the errours of Popery Their praise therefore must be in all the Churches of Christ Question twelfth Ye are so broken amongst Papists Quest. your selves that ye look not like the primitive Christians who had one heart and way Answere first Our breaches are our burden before the Lord and a stroak upon us for Prote ∣ stants Ans 1 the abuse of that great Gospell-light under which we have long lived but not for coming out of Babylon Secondly Ye Papists are more divided Ans 2. for we all agree in doctrine and essentials but ye skirmish about that so frequently that if the â—udgment of the Roman Church be the sentence of your Church it is hard to know what people shall doe tyed to beleeve as your Church doth For sometime the Councill is put above the Pope sometime the Pope above the Councill The pragmatick sanction of France is allowed and subscrived by many cryed down by others Some will have a divine predetermination on the will others only morall swasion Some are for mediat concourse of the first cause with the second others for immediat If Unity be a convertible note of the Church ye are none Thirdly Perfect Unity in all things is not to be expected here so long as we know but Ans 3. in part 1. Cor. 13. 9. If whereto we have attained we walk by the same rule the Lord will reveal more to us in due time Phil. 3. 16. If any should have said that the Church of Corinth was not true because of some divisions or that therfore these of Corinth should return with the foolish Galatians to the covenant of workes it had been a Solecism in reason yet no greater then this to alleadge that some differences make us no Church Reply In your 12. Answer you grant your breaches amongst your selves as your burthen for the abuse of pure Gospel light How can Papists Reply ye all agree in Doctrine except in so far as the abuse of the Gospel which is to say true all the unity ye have Neither is it wonder ye do nor agree seeing ye do not acknowledge the high Bishop successour to St. Peter who as Hierom saith was chosen for this amongst the twelve that a head being constitute the occasion of Schism might be taken away Secondly You pretend that Catholick Romans are more divided then ye because sometime the Council is put above the Pope sometime the Pope above the Council But find you this as an article of the Catholick Church What ever hath been the opinion of sacred men yea of Fathers and Councils thereanent yet they were never confirmed nor owned by the Church for an Oecumenick decree And suppose both sentences were decided it is easily answered that the Pope is approved to be above a Council not approved by himself and a Council approved by a Pope is above a Pope alone wherein there is no disagreement or contradiction As for the pragniatick Sanction as it hath no reference to matters of faith so it maketh nothing for your purpose no more then praedetermination seeing all Catholicks who hold it think it taketh not away free-will But then you say perfect unity in all things is
assert with the Scripture that Marriage is honourable amongst all therefore they should not forbid it Their answer is that all should not be taken here absolutely for then a brother might marry his sister but only of persons not prohibited and their votaries are such Is not this a fig-leaf covering Incest is forbidden by the law of GOD. But where are Church men forbidden by GOD to marry it is honourable among them saith the written word who can bind men to the contrar of that which the Lord hath permitted and commanded The evasion about the Sacrament of the Supper is of the same kind when it is objected that Christ said expresly of the Cup drink ye all of it By all say they is meaned all Priests but not all Christians Is this to be endured with patience to see men tear so the sense of Scripture with sophisms If all relate to them as Ministers of the Gospel then they should have the bread only and all privat Christians should be barred for he who said drink ye all of it said likewise to the same all take eat Fourthly When they are challenged of Superstition and Idolarrie by breach of the second Command here there is a distinction not lacking betwixt the worship called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reserved for GOD and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which they avowedly say should be given to images Saints c. And this they father on Augustin But these two words are promiscuously taken in Scripture and both of them given to GOD as shal be proved in its proper place Papists give 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Images Reliques and Cross of Christ Thus they confound themselves When Iohn the divine would have worshipped the Angel doth he not forbid him Rev 22. 9. and say worship GOD Belike he knew not this distinction Is it not called will worship Col 2. 23. Then it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Neither doth Augustin make use of that distinction in the Popish sense he was farre from thinking that Religious worship should be tendered to Saint or Angel for he saith lib. de vera Relig. cap. ult Honorandi sunt propter imitationem non adorandi propter Religionem And epist 44. seâ—as inquit a Christianis â—ullum coli mortuorum He biddeth us praise the Martyres honour their memories follow their foot-steps sed DEVM Martyrum colite worship the GOD of Martyrs onlie This distinction then is groundless Is it not lamentable that men professing Christianitie should so hazard upon Idolatrie Superstition and will worship with a deceitful distinction which can neither satisfie reason nor conscience And dare any tender Christian think that such jugling work will be his peace in the day of distress and death What is this but a lie in the right hand Therefore let all who love and fear the Lord bewarre of that worship which standeth on such cogling distinctions Fifthly Their great refuge when they cannot mantain these absurdities is that we calumniat them mistate questions And if neither of these can serve then they alleadge that these are the opinions of some privat Doctors and not the judgement of their Church But in this vindication let all be assured that to my best uptaking nothing is fathered on this Adversary but what he saith directly or coÌ„sequentially nothing brought against him but that which is either literally or interpretatively in the written word of GOD or human Authours Albeit it he notoriously known that Papists uphold their tottering Babel by lies murthers treasons deluding wonders by corrupting mutilating foisting embezeling diverse testimonies divine and humaâ—â— as shal be made out hereafter yet we have not so learned Christ The truths of Christs Gospel need not such proppes and we are not allowed to lie for GOD. It is a meer evasion to cast over what they cannot make good on their privat Doctours For the decrees of the council of Trent to which now they profess adherence are purposly contrived in many particulars like the Delphian oracles and when they lurke under ambiguities what way shall they be found out but by their Doctours who are the expositors of their tenets Beside there be few or none of them cited whose books are not approven by Censurers appointed for that effect the tenour of whose testimonie is that such books contain nothing contrar to the Catholick faith of the Church of Rome Is not this equivalent to a Council statute Do they not impuâ—â—â—â—ur Doctours Calvine Luther c notwithstanding of 〈…〉 Confessions of faith whereof they cannot be ignorant They deal not only so with their own writters but also with the Fathers as some hard Masters use their servants if they â—lease their humours they will keep them if not they will dismisse them it may be with a stain betwixt termes Yea they deal worse with such testimonies as rellish nor their taste for they dispatch and gelde them also Their Monastries have not occasioned the murther of more infants nor their Golders by the index expurgatorius have the death of true testimonies which now being overlaid cannot see the light Shal not the GOD of truth make inquisition for these crimes in due time Surely he will arise and have mercy on Zion for some are yet living who take pleasure in her stones and favour the dust thereof Thirdly The third Engyne which thâ—se Engyneers use is the colour of antiquitie and pretence to closs walking and austerities The Church of Rome to which the Apostle Paul did write is indeed ancient whose faith was spoken of through all the world But Poperie as it is now dogmatised is a late invention plastered with antiquitie like the Gibeonites bread And so far from rendring men closs walkers that it is highlie prejudicial to Gospel interests For ex natura operis it turneth men loose and unfaithful to souls yea its pompous secular way is verie unsuitable to the simplicitie and self-denyal required in the Gospel this is soon proved The great pillar of the Romish Religion is the Popes pompous supremacie and infallibilitie In this saith Bell. prefat de Pontifice the summe of their Religion consisteth Consider Reader which of the Apostles did so empyre it Not Peter that he forbiddeth and calleth himself a fellow Elder 1. Peter 5. 1. Not any Church man for manie Centuries thereafter For Gregory who was Bishop of Rome anno 600. curseth the name of universal Bishop which Iohn Bishop of Constantinople usurped and saith epist lib. 4 Rex superbiae prope est he meaneth Anti. Christ Et sacerdotum ei praeparatur exercitus in this he prophecied truelie Estius in lib. 4. sent dist 47. being puzled with this testimonie saith that by universal Bishop Gregory meaned onlie sole Bishop who excluded others This is a meer forgerie for there were manie Bishops at that time in the Greek Church beside Iohn of Constantinople so he was not solus Episcopus But giving not granting this to be the sense of the
release those Prisoners sooner and sill some rooms in Heaven faster How readie are we to delay duty from time to time And doth not this baite our humour How jejune and bare is their contrition which goeth before confession and absolution Yet may prove sufficient Hear Suarez tom 4. disp 4. who saith a slender grief is sufficient And Tolet. lib. 3. de instr Sacerdot a smal degree of grief can wipe away a great degree of sin What is this but daubing with untempered morter and putting kercheifes under arme holes a strengthening of the hands of the wicked that he should not return from his evil way By toleration of Brothels and preferring in votaries fornication to lawful marriage Is not a wide door opened to obâ—cene sensualitie Agrippa de vanit witnesseth that the Pope hath tribute payed to him by all the whore-houses at Rome Therefore Pope Sixtus builded the nobile lâ—panâ—r a notable Brothel house Bell. de Monach. lib. 2. cap. 30. saith that fornication in such is a less sin nor marriage What will debauch the chastitie if this do not Tolet. lib. 4. de instr sacerd telleth us that a man is bound to sanctifie the Sabbath but is not bound to sanctifie it well for he may hunt travel and make market on that day Is not this infectious doctrine Now Christian Reader if thou be serious for salvation I charge thee to pause here a little and consider if this can be the way of holiness wherein the Prophers Apostles and primitive Fathers walked to Heaven Therefore as thou tenderest thy own salvation and consolation bewar of it this leadeth to the chambers of death Hath falne man who enclineth naturally to wickedness need of such incentives to sin and lenitives when he hath sinned Or can he who is of puter eyes then to behold iniquity approve such as break his Commandments and teach men so to do Can the tree be good where the fruiâ— is so bâ—d None will believe it who have understanding unless they be willing to be deceived It is the stain of any Christian to desert the good old way in which they are commanded to walk Ier. 6. 16. and to be fooled out of their Religion by some groundless distinctions and ingenious devices of subtile men who stent snares and lay themselves in waâ—te to deceive the simple If a man born and trained in the Reformed Church shal hanker after Popery he is foolish in so doing if he purpose nâ—t to swallow the whole bulk of it For Bellarmin saith they cannot quite one â—ota otherwise their Church were not to be reputed infallible and if he resolve to do this I must say he hath an Ostrich-stomach and is a great latitudinarian Further it is to be feared that at the next alteration if tempted â—e fall into Atheism total infidelitie For the weapoÌ„s by which the Papists wage warre with the Scriptures and the Reformed Church built thereon are the same which Celsus used of old against Christianity it self which Origen refuteth at length he impeached the Scriptures and quarrelled the Christians for their rents for the calumnies of the world c. If these have beat thee from the Reformed Religion hast thou not to fear that they may shake thee in all and turn thee at last Nullisidian As they make use of Pagan arguments so of the Jewish for they reasoned just so against Christ Jesus and his Apostles By what authority where is your visible succession have any of the rulers Scribes or Pharisees beleeved on him c. It hath pleased the Lord to furnish us with good defences but it is strange that they drawing many of their shafts from Pagan and Jewish Antichristian quivers should not be ashamed of their way And it is more strange that knowing men if conscientions should be ensnared by them It is known to such as are not ignorant of Church history that when Christianity came first into this Ysle they had nothing to do with Rome for a long time they were strangers and adversaries to her soveraignty and would not exchange the dyet of Easter for her commands nor have communion with these messengers who came from her Bede called Venerable telleth lib 2. hist cap. 4. that in the beginning of the 7. cent after Augustine the Monk came to Brittain he found them no way like the Romanists noâ— could he prevaile with them to conforme to Rome not so much as in the administration of Baptism or observation of Easter And when one Laurentius his successor endeavoured the same and thought the Scots would be more tractable he found the plaine contrare as he writteth to the Abbates in Scotland for Dagamus the Scotish Bishop who came to speak with them refused to eat or drink with Laurentius or stay in the roome where he was So little communion would they here have then with Romanists Now that Church is farre more corrupt then it was in Gregories dayes and ours more pure and enlightened then it was at that time What phrenesie must it be therefore in them now who are members of this Church to enter into communion with Romanists or tamper with or haunker after their way Let all who love the Truth stand in awe thus to sin we have a safer surer way for Salvation nor Popery wherein if we walk peace and mercy shal be on us Gal. 6. 16. Least this Preface swell disproportionably I will offer four advyees to my Countrey-men that they may be perswaded from Poperie and then close with a word more particularly to the Inhabitants of this Place First If ye would guard well against Popery have a full perswasion of the Truth from the ground of divine revelation in the holy Scriptures 2. Tim. 1. 13. 14. Hold fast the forme of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love which is in Christ Iesus that good thing which is commited to thee keep by the holy Ghost which dwelleth in us For men not perswaded by divine faith like to young schollars evil grounded in their principles are easily put from their grounds and tossed to and froe with every wind of doctrine Persuasisti mihi Domine saith Aug. lib. 6. confes cap. 5. this keeped him fast When once divine Truth sinketh into the heart ye will have a sincere love to it for it self and not for any by respects or worldly advantages Otherwayes when truth florteth only in the head and men are bated with worldly temptations and selfish interests they are soon drawn away from the truth which in their affection is postponed to that which they love better And GOD in his holy justice giveth them up to stronge delusions for their hypocrisie and want of sinceritie 2. Thess 2. 10. 11. the Lord hath promised the spirit to them who ask him Luke 11. 13. If ye love the truth seek the grace and strength of the holy Spirit to lead you into all truth and labour to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus
about matters of faith Secondly If so they be no where written in Scripture Thirdly That if they be not written they be the same which ye deliver to the people and by what authority ye press and writ them But to take this text wholly from your mis-interpretation hear Theodoret who saith that the Apostle spake not of diverse doctrines but of the same diversely delivered For first he preached to the Thessalonians and then did writ the substance of it But as where ever ye find fire in the Scripture ye make it Purgatory so where ye find tradition ye make it pari ratione yours Will ye listen to Bell. lib. 4. de verbo Dei cap. 10. and he will put all out of doubt for he granteth that all in substance were written by the Apostles which they preached to the people or were necessar to salvation Cyprian in his epist ad Pompeium admitteth not any traditions but such as may be perceived to be in the Evangels in the Epistles or Acts of the holy Apostles Therefore it is a perfect rule to all discerners say I and no more was at first asserted Your Maxime Idem est non esse non apparere holdeth in law but not in divinity For the soul is not visible yet who can deny the being of it What is more in the Reply I judge not worthy the noticeing and I am forced to make digression because of an impertinent return Is it not strange that when I called men mutable creatures and at their best state vanitie subject to clashing contradiction and that the written Word is the only infallible rule for direction that upon this tradition universal consent should be so prolixely commented on without any connexion They who follow this reflecter must resolve to deviat from tho high way Question seventh Your Church which ye Papists Quest. 7 call reformed is but of yesterday where was it before Luther Answer It is as old in its doctrinals as Prote ∣ stants Answer the Scripture therefore not of yesterday See what societie from the beginning professed the doctrine mantained there that was out Church The Romans Corinthians Ephesians Philippians Thessalonians as taught by the Apostle Paul are our Church of old so it is not new Secondly In all ages there have been and are eminent professours of that doctrine which we mantaine as is abundantly proved by Flaccus Illyricus in his Catalogue Testium veritatis and learned Dr. Usher in successione Ecclesiae reform which testimonies no Popish shaveling of what ever ordour yet could answer Thirdly where was the church of Rome as now constituted before the council of Trent Nay more was the Popes supremacy and infallibility heard of the 600 year after Christ Is not all Popish faith as such resolved into a lie viz. the infallibility of the Pope or Council which though errand untruths are the key of the Popish Religion Fourthly All the positives of the reformed Religion were mantained substantially in the Primitive church the first 300. years I speake not of changeable circumstances nor integrals but essentials and the negatives could not be there because the controversies were not then started But ye Papists have amassed a body of humane inventions gross errours contrare to scripture obtruding them under Anathema to be the established doctrine of the Church And because we of the reformed Profession will not own these and call that which is new old ye excommunicat us as Hereticks Reply In your seventh Answere you say Papists Reply your doctrine is as old as scripture and your Church as the Apostles and this is common to you with all sectaries to claime the scripture and the Church in the time of the Apostles And like to that answer of the common people we are all come of Adam and Eve But I shall let you presently see how contrar your doctrine is to that scripture and how unlike your Church is to that of the Apostles the first 300 year In the second part ye pretend that Illyricus and Doctor Usher have sufficiently shewed that there have been eminent men of your Profession in all ages and that without a Reply of any Popish shaveling of whatever ordour But Sir I am sorrie that you who are a Nazarian and not a shaveling shoule be so ill versed in books of controversie as not to have seen so many Catholick writters who demonstrat clearly that of all these eminent men before Calvin you pretend to be yours there is not one hath holden all the same tenets with you and no more For it is enough for you that they dissent from the Church of Rome and sling at the Popes authority what ever tenets they hold in matters of belief to call them yours Which hath made Dr. Vane Chaplain to our late King judiciously compare them to Sampsons foxes which were all bound together by the tails although their heads went diverse wayes So that when you call the Luthereans Valdenses Albigenses Hussites Catharists Wicklessians Graecians Egyptians yours you may as well call the Turks and Tartars yours if we trust all records which speake of their tenets And as for the Fathers hear if they were yours in the opinion of the most learnea Protestants Dudithius apud Bezam ep 1. If that be true which Papists say the Fathers with mutual consent are altogether on their side Pet. Martyr 2. de verbo col 1539. as long as we stand to Councils and fathers we shal alwayes remain in the same errours And fully confesseth that Hierom Ambrose and Augustin held the invocation of Saints Chemnitius in ex concil trid art 3. pag. 100. did not disput but avouch that most of the Fathers said the souls of the Martyrs heard the petition of those that prayed to them they went to monuments and invocated Martyrs by name Whitgift in his defence pag. 473. all the Bishops and writters of the Greek and Latine Church too who no doubt were the Fathers for the most part were spotted with the doctrine of Free-will Merit Invocation of Saints Judge then Sir if they were pure In the third part you ask where was the Church of Rome before the council of Trent I answer you even where she is now except in Jappony India China and some parts of America where by their Christian labours and by the blessing of GOD she hath been established since Neither can you instance that she is not constantly the same in all points Nay more say you was the Popes infallible universal supremacie heard of the first 600. years Where it seems you must be very deaf who hear not the voice of 1200. Fathers speaking only in the four first general Councils He who holdeth the See of Rome is chief and head of all Patriarchs saith right seeing he is the first as Peter to whom all power is given over all Christian Princes and all their people and who ever contradicteth this is excommunicated Can. 29. Concil Nicaeni anno 325. Where 316 Bishops were conveened Secondly
For whosoever seperateth from the true Church which Scripture commandith us to hear leaveth it But ye were persecuted this I grant of your first Apostats Luther for sacriledge in marrying a Nunne vowed to GOD. Calvin for Sodomy burnt on the shoulder Knox for incest And so are all knaves persecuted by laws Should they then turne out-laws and rebels Duply In stead of refuting our Reformation Prote ∣ stants Duply and the reasons of our separation from Rome you fal on raising without any reason For Luther Calvin and Knox were excellent men of GOD as their lives and writtings testifie But if your Popes were such Platina hath done them wrong You may say as safely I am brunt on the shoulder and have committed incest there be no more warrand for the one then for the other And for lawful marriage I see not what divices of men could deny that to any called to it seeing the Lord granteth the liberty Stapleton a virulent adversary yet in this more for the truth then you are in his preface ad autidota Evangelica speaketh thus of Calvin Est interpres Scripturae diligens elegans suavis Comentarii ejus perutiles sunt He is far from calling him a knave Florimond Raymond de nat haeres lib. 7. cap. 10. speaketh thus Fatendum est Calvinuns fuisse ingenio admirando acuto promptissimo in imaginationibus suis in conceptionibus suis exornatissimo c. And for his vindication from these calumnies which you injuriously fixe upon him read your own Papyrius Mâ—ssonius Elog. par 2. pag. 431. where his life is set down and Bolsecus refuted who was the authour of these lies If faithful Historians can have any trust with you these three worthies whom you labour to blot were as faithful holy Ministers of the Gospel as lived in the Church for many hundred years formerly Your own writters blame your Popes and Clergie men but they were either Apostats or constant adversaries who blot Luther and Calvin It is told by your own that Pope Sixtus the fourth licenced the Cardinal of St. Lucie and his familie to use freely that sin not to be named in the three hot moneths of the year And Johannes a Câ—sa Arch Bishop of Beneventum legat to Pope Julius the third set forth a book in commendation of Sodomy there is more warrand for this report then for the Incest of Knox or Sodomy of Calvin Yet who will delight to â—ake in such pudles chaste eares should abhore such speaches Michael the Arch-Angel brought not in time of dispute a railing accusation against the Devil but you spare not to accuse the brethren who are now dead in the Lord falsely Is this the right way to promove the truth Absit But lies being your refuge I leave you to the GOD of truth for answer and shal only take notice that you leave all the four grounds of our seperation from Rome unrepealed and intire So by your silence it appeareth we had reason to leave you for ye Papists hate to be reformed †This your own Espencaeus regrateth on chap. 1. to Titus Question 10. What call had your Reformers Papists qu. 10 to go about such a worke Answer They were Ministers lawfully ordained the Bishops of England and Doctors Prote ∣ stants Answer of Germany c. For Calvin he was thrust forth by Farrel and Virer and ordained by laying on of the hands of the Presbytry according to the rule 1. Tim. 4. 14. So was our Knox Wishhart Willock c. They were like Scribes fitted for the kingdom of God and furnished with things new and old And being Officers in an army where they did clearly see the captain of salvation injured did lift up their voices like trumpets and shew the people their transgressions which was the duty of their office according to their oath Reply Ye take your first Ministerial ordination Papists Reply from the Bishops of England Doctors of Germany and hands of the Presbytry where by Bishops if you understand Catholick Bishops remaining such you must understand they neither could nor would give any power to preach against the Catholick Church No Bishop having power to destruction but to edification of the Church As also you must understand the Catholick Church was yet in her integrity having lawful Bishops whom ye should have constantly followed If Bishops turned Protestants I ask from whom had they their power but from the Catholick Church which no doubt had suspended them in the exercise of their Episcopal function for their disobedience and separation from her As for the Doctors of Germany they might well make Luther a Doctor but not a lawful Pastor or new Apostle nor could there be a Presbytrie of pure reformed Ministers to consecrat Calvin he being the first Reformer himself For by the word Presbyter ye understand an Elder in the New Testament and so by the word Presbytrie you must understand a convention of Elders in the Session which is the first place indeed for a Sodomist called for setting him on a pillar rather tâ—en in the Pulpit But true it is ye had no ordination in the beginning but every one did preach at his own hand pretending the goodness of their doctrine did give them sufficient power and call as all other Sectaries do commonly in the beginning Prote ∣ stants Duply Duply There was a necessity of Reformation pleaded for by many under the Papall tyrrannie This was denyed and school questions made articles of faith which caused some officers of the house first write against them and preach down such prophane errours as Indulgencies c. Now I ask if the case and exigence be such whether might not a Popish pastor by vertue of his ordination judge himself bound in duty to decrie the sins of the time and endeavour reformation aâ— Savanorola did especially seeing every ordained man is a pastor of the Catholick Church this is power for edification not for destruction Admit the Bishops of England did continue Papall it was their duty to purifie the worship throw down Idols c if they were Reformed then the more fit were they for reforming others When Athanasius separated from the Arrians ceased he to be a Bishop or was he holden to be silent in his apology to the Emperour he pleadeth for the contrare Had not the Doctors of Germany power to preach against Indulgencies and were they not Presbyters also You bewray your ignorance concerning Calvin he was not the first reformer Farrel Viret and others were before him who thrust him out into the worke of the Lord. You have as little skill of Presbytry by taking a Session for it But it seemeth your mistake hath been studied to vent your malice against Calvin If ye were as free of superstition and Idolatrie as he was of Sodomy the offerings of the Lord would not be so injured nor his Name polluted Question eleventh Ye want uninterrupted succession which the primitive Church Papists qu. 11 claimed still
not to be expected here So ye shew your selves conscious enough of your own divisions and if you understand it in matters of faith it is a blasphemy against Gods word which saith that there be but one GOD one Faith one Baptism If one faith then no division of faith without which no unity can consist So judge you if it be not only a solecism in reason as you speak but also in belief to joyn with the Grecians in Confession of Faith albeit they deny the procession of the Holy Ghost which ye believe or with the Lutherians who hold the real presence of Christs body in the Sacrament which ye flatly deny Duply You grant that the Pope according to Hierom was first chosen that the occasion Prote ∣ stants Duply of Schism might be taken away Then it is clear that the Pope is not Dominicae dispositionis and that Hierom nor the Fathers did ever dream of his Monarchical Empire as Casaubon ad Barronii Annales proveth well Exercit. 15. A Prolocutor is the most they give to the Apostle Peter they call him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this will not make a Pope so by adhereing to Hierom you destroy the Pope And not only was he of this opinion but your own Medina telleth us de sacrorum hominum origini that Ambrose Chrysostom Theodoret Theophylact Oecumenius Sedulius Primasius mantained the same And it is clear that Augustin in quaest Veteris Novi Testament quaest 101. homologaâ—â—h all this I 'le help you further herein to shew that I am no adversary to truth Gregory the Pope prophecied that whoso counted himself universal Bishop was Anti-Christ And writting to John Patriarch of Constantinople epist 38. lib. 4 who did usurpe that tittle he calleth him Rex superbiae Which title Boniface did take on afterwards by Phocas means who killed his Master Mauritius and fulfilled the prophecie of Gregorie Neither John Patriarch of Constantinople nor Boniface excluded other Bishops as Esthius laboureth by this reply to make evasion For both in the Eastern and Western Churches at that time there were Bishops whom they acknowledged such But he is universal Bishop according to Gregorie who layeth claim to the universal supremacy and extolleth himself above all as the Pope now doth in the Church at Rome I shal shut up this answer with that famous consideration of Bernard to Pope Eugenius the 4. which words Antonius de Dominis Arch Bishop of Spalato citteth for refutation of the Popes supremacie Politia Ecclesiast lib. 5. cap. 2. the words are these Hoc quod habuit Petrus hoc dedit solicitudinem quippe super Ecclesias Dominationem nunquam audi ipsum non Dominantes inquit in clerum 1. Peter 5. 3. Et ne dictum sola humilitate non ettam veritate videatur vox Domini est in Evangelio Reges Gentium Dominantur vos non lic I ergo â—u inquit aude tibi usurpare Apostolicus Dominatum aut Dominant Apostolatum plane ab alterutro prohiberis This was written in the 12. Centurie and is a full testimonie proving that Bernard thought not Papal jurisdiction of divine appointment Now sir did you nor palpablie contradict your self here when formerly you equalized your Pope to Prophets Apostles and made your universal High-Bishop jure Divino by saying that the evil of Schism occasioned his election at first if so it is juris humani at best and thus you agree with Hierom. Secondly You would father a contradiction on me because I regrate our rents proceeding from the evil use of Gospell-light as if we held not one confession of faith A child may conceive that the abuse of Gospel-light supposeth the light but it is evil used practically and this maketh our breaches in other things It is beyond controversie that the nationall stroaks under which we groan have chiefly proceeded from the evil use of the Gospell Light hath come amongst us but we have walked in darkness Will it therefore follow that we are not one dogmatically in the orthodox confession of faith Where is this consequence founded Neither doth the Popedome cure rents but rather make them Experience proveth this cure to be the fomenter of the disease For since his usurpation moe controversies have been started in the Christian Church then formerly were heard And if this wer the cure it is admirable that wheÌ„ the case was in Corinth there is no mention of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thirdly You deny that it hath been the sentence or deeree oecumenical that the Councill was above the Pope Was it not expresly defined by the Councill of Basil and doth not the 15 Act of the Councill of Chalcedon say that the Roman Church hath no priviledge above others from Christ But the reason why at any time they had it was because it was the seat of the Roman Empire and that the Bishop of Constantinople hath equall priviledges with the Pope Doe not all your Sorbonists preferre the councill to the Pope and all your Jesuits the Pope to the Councill Where is your Unitie then for as Bellarmin saith In hoc consistit summa rei viz. â—n the Popes infallible universall supremacie without which there is no salvation to be â—â—ad Also ye make it a fundamental article of your Creed which is more then the opinion of privat Doctours And the very truth is it is the foundtion and key-stone of Popery Quo sublato omnia corruunt as he saith there in his Preface to the Treatise de summe Pontisice De qua re agitur cum de primatu Pontisicis agitur Breviter respondeo de summa rei id enim quaeritur debeâ—tne Ecclesia duitius consistere an vero dissolvi concidere Then ye betake your self to this hold that the Pope is above a Council not approved by himself and the Council approveed by him above the Pope But as I said before this giveth no more to a Council then to a Session for if the Pope approve that it is above his own single approbation in regard of the additameÌ„t to it The only question is when they differ whose sentence is to be preferred And about this ye differ much amongst your selves consequently in fundamentals for this is caput rei Fourthly You quarrel with us for saying that perfect unity in all things is not to be expected here And yet it is express Scripture 1. Cor. 13. 9. Phil. 3. 15. founded upon experience How then call you it blasphemie Unitas in fundamentalibus libertas in supra fundameÌ„talibus charitas in omnibus is a saying much commended by many and did we blaspheme by uttering this golden sentence We are in charity with the Lutheran and Greek Church because they hold the same rule with us viz the Scripture The Reformed Churches have a body of Confessions in which they have Concord and we in this Church have one Catechism and one Confession of Faith in which we all agree But to think that because of some
as appeareth from Aug. contra Cresconium lâ—b 2. cap. 3. and ep 48. This was one of the weapons whereby they did bâ—at the Donatists Answer The ground of separation of the Donatists was the personall vices of men Prote ∣ stants Answer not the doctrine professed in the Church For in that they agreed with the universall Church as is clear from the above mentioned ep Now we did not separat from Rome because their Popes whom they take for a patron have been Atheists Hereticks denyers of the soules immortalitie Whore mongers c. as their own writters confess in the lives of Silvester 2. Alexander 6. Iohn 22. and many moe but because ye apostatized from the Apostles doctrine and corrupted the worship miserably so these testimonies concern not us Secondly If interrupted succession make void the Ministry ye Papists have none at Ans 2. all For ye often had Anti-Popes and the Councill at Pisa deposed two Popes at once as Hereticks departing from the faith The Councill of Constance deposed Iohn 23. for denying the immortality of the soul and the resurrection Behold then your succession and the infallibility of your Popes Eugenius the fourth was deposed by the Council of Basil and all the following Popes were his successours albeit the Council judged Faelix the fifth to be Pope Yea further this place hath vaiked for many years together so that a line of immediat successours cannot be drawn by your selves Thirdly We have a lawful Ministry as Ans 3. powerful as the world affordeth honoured by the blessing of the Lord by begetting souls to himself and many can from their experience say that it hath been the power of GOD to their salvation how then can you challenge our Ministry Is not this near of kine to that old Anti-Christian question proponed to our Master by what authority dost thou these things And if personal succession had such weight as you say the Priesthood under the law had been at a great loss For the line of it was interrupted oftner then once before the coming of Christ yet he commendeth submission and obedience to them so long as they did sit in Moses chair and no further Matth. 23. 1. So that in Ministers it is the Doctrine and not the Genealogy of persons that is so much regarded Reply In your eleventh Answer you grant personal vices are not a sufficient ground Papists Reply of sepaâ—ation from the Church and say that Protestants did only separat themselves from the worship miserablie polluted and because the Roman Church had Apostatized from the Apostolick Doctrine But Sir let me ask you when the Catholick Roman Church which before your Reformation at least was a true Church Apostatized And who was a competent judge to declare her Apostacie and give you leave to separat Was â—t Scripture as according to your first rule you must say Then I ask if two or three under pretence of a Reformation may adhere to what they think to be in Scripture against the judgement of the whole Church at that time Which â—ssuredly all must grant who teach that the true Church may erre and so give the same libertie to all Sectaries which they take so boldly to themselves But albeit you say your separation was not from our personal vyces yet you impute in the by going heresie denying of the souls immortalitie whoredom to two or three of our Popes Silvester the second Alexander the sixth John the twenty two How justly we shal presently see But however this were true it could no more wrong the Popes authority in his Canonical decrees then Davids adultery or Solomons Idolatrie in penning Scripture Neither is it a great wonder that amongst 240. Popes there have been two or three evil Since even amongst twelve Apostles there was one Judas Nor do Catholicks canonize all their Popes although for these three whom ye name wicked they have 33. most famous Martyrs and Saints What ever they teach as privat doctors as it mâ—keth no law in the Church so it cannot derogat in the least to their decision and doctrine as Popes But to answer for these three what Martinus Polemius and the Magdeburgh say against Silvester the second as a Magician is known by all the learned to be meer fables imputed to him for his eminent knowledge and learning in the Mathematicks which made the ninth Age wherein he lived to call him a Magician because of its gross ignorance Alexander the sixth is also blamed for lewdness by no impartial writter And what Calvin saith lib. 4. instir against John 22. is known to be errour and lies speaking of him as Pope whatever was his opinion as a privat Doctor of the soul before the day of judgement which he disclaimed to be his at his death professing and protesting that he had never any belief but that of the Catholick Church saith John Williams lib. 11. hist cap. 19. But Hereticks speak of Popes as Rebels of Kings discontented subjects of Ministers of state and criminals of their lawful judges which no wise man will much regard Then to shew that we have not an uninterrupted succession you speak first of Anti-Popes as if they did interrupt the succession of Popes more then Usurpers the succession of Kings Secondly Of Popes deposed by Councils but you cannot instance that any lawful Pope was deposed by any general Council what ever Thirdly You say the See of Rome hath vaiked for many years To which I answer as Kings die not so neither Popes as it doth not interrupt the succession of Elective Kings that after the death of one there be long debate before the Election of another the royal power then residing in the Electours so neither interrupteth it the succession of Popes and their Election You speak nothing of your own succession because ye have none You bragge much of a powerful Ministrie but shews no call you had to the Ministrie from GOD nor his Church so we had good reason to challenge it albeit you call this an Anti-Christian question to ask at new upstarts who pretend to reforme the Church who gave you a call because the Jews had such a question to Christ But Christ John 15. 24. saith if he had not shewed himself to be the Son of GOD by his words and works which none else could do no man had been obliedged to belive him Yet ye will have us to believe you are lawful Ministers without succession or a call and that Luther and Calvin were extraordinarily sealed for Reformation without the least sign mark or miracle shewing that they were sent for that end So that in Ministers you conclude it is the Doctrine more then the Genealogie of persons which is so much regarded As if preaching of true doctrine were sufficiant to make a man a Minister without any ordination or call the Scripture expresseth another thing saying how shal they preach except they be sent And as to seek true successsion of Bishops and Pastours in
the Church from the Apostles and their successours were to seek their Genealogy and Birth Such answers are made to deceive the ignorants and to let any rational man know ye have no lawful successsion at all however ye intrude your selves into the Ministrie upon pretence of doctrine as all phanâ—ticks and sectaries do Duply Here is multum scribere and a rabble of ragged discourse to smal purpose Prote ∣ stants Duply passing from Succession which was the question to a call which was formerly answered In the first part how poorly plaister you over the crimes of your three Popes by giving Calvin and the Magdeburgenses and the ages wherein they lived the lie And is this all your vindication of them That it may appear this covering to be too narrow for so foule faults not only have Calvin and the Magdeburgenses said so but Platina Bâ—râ—nius Sigonius c. Are these also lyars These are not authors like Bolsecus the Apostate but such as ye will not deny to be credible witnesses Silvester the 2. lived in the eleventh Centurie and not in the ninth as ye mistake Once he was called Gerbert and studied the Mathematicks saith Onuphrius then turned a consulter with the Devil saith Platina for instance this is brought that he enquired curiously how long he would enjoy the Papacy And the response he received was till he laid Masse in Jerusalem Within four years thereafter he was saying Masse in the corner of the Roâ—d-Church which is called Jerusalem and asking how the Chappel was called it was answered by some Jerusalem Then he knew that his death was near and becoming to be sad he confessed his sins before many witnesses whom he exhorted to bewarre of ambition and commerce with the Devil Some say that he desired his body to be cutted and layd on a cart c. This his tragedie is recorded also by Polid. Virg. de invent rerum lib. 5. Nauclerus vol. 2. gener 34. If these be your Matheticks I will learne none of them So it is sure by testimony of your own that Silvester was a Magician Next ye say that John 23. your Pope is wronged by Calvin for saying that he denyed the immortality of the soul and ye alleadgâ— what ever was his opinion as a privat Doctor of the soul before the day of judgement yet that he recanted his errour and died in the faith of the Church If Calvin wronge him Bell. lib. 4. de Pontif. wrongeth him also for he saith the Cardinals resisted him in this gross tenet and doth disput whither it was heresie seeing it was not defyned in a Council Nauclerus saith that many Divines hold this Pope to be an heretick And his successor Benedict did publickly condemne him and it Erasmus in his preface to the 5. book of Irenaeus saith that he laboured to propagat this heresie in France and being challenged was compelled to recant which he did coldly saith Nauclerus Had â—oâ— Calvin then reason to say that this Pope was heretical Otherwise why was he put to recantation Thirldy Ye say that Alexander the 6. was blamed by no impartial writter Was not Guicâ—ardine †Guice lib. 1. impartial What think ye of Phil. de Comin †Phil. de Bello Neap. was he partial also They give us this relation that he came by bribes to the chair And when Charles the 8. intended warre against the Turke the Pope advertised Bajazet and promised for a suÌ„me of money to make a stop to the expedition which the Turke undertook to pay Was not this a holy Father Further Onuphrius telleth that he was much given to whoredom and did beget four sons and two daughters whom he avouched His familie was stained with incest So that a Poet in these times did write this Epitaphe on his daughter Hoc jacet in tumulo Lucretia nomine sed re Thais Alexandri filia nupta â—urus His death was tragical for having prepared a bottel of poysoned wine for some whom he invited to dinner was poysoned therewith by the ignorance of his Cup-bearer and fell into the ditch which he prepared for others his candle was thus put out and he left an unsavoury snuffe behinde him as his Epitaphe witnesseth written by Ia. Sannazarius who when he hath mentioned his many faults into which pudle I love not to raike shutteth up all with this I nunc Nerones vel Caligulas nomina Turpes vel Heliogabulos Hoc sat viator reliqua non sinit pudor Tu suspicare ambula Then you reflect upon the society of the Apostles where there was one Judas But when he fell did he not cease to be an Apostle and fall from his Ministrie But your Popes continued such till their death infallible and they erred as men but not as Popes This could not be said of Iudas though once an Apostle They are liker to Iudas then any of the rest of the Apostles But to make such a head of Christs Church upon Earth is a strange paradox O but ye say David and Solomon fell yet were pen-men of holy Scripture Ans They penned no Scripture while in that state I hold the Negative you are bound to prove the Affirmative but will never do it Their repentance was more then ordinar witness Psal 51. and the book of Ecclesiastes O if your Popes had a grain weight of their repentance soon would we hear other language from them and you Then you say that Hereticks speak evil of your Popes as criminal persons do of a judge Was Platina a criminal person or heretick and yet he marketh eminent viceâ— in more then 33. Popes Read him and resent your expressions or refute him as ye do Calvin with a broad lie and no more You put us to it to tell the time when Rome became Idolatrous and vitious in the worship c. Which was the ground of our separation This belongeth to the former question Yet to this I say with reverend and learned Bishop Usher Rome was not built in a day nor the great dung-hill of errors which now we see raised in it in an age therefore it is a vain demand Secondly There be a difference betwixt open Heresies which oppose the foundation Prote ∣ stants Duply 2 and Apostacie which the Spirit hath evidently foretold should be brought in by these who speak lies in hypocrisie 1. Tim. 4. 1. 2. The impiety of the one is notorious the other mysterious as the Apostle reâ—â—â—eth it 2. Thess 2. 7. they who watched against the one might sleep while the seeds of the other were in sowing or peradventure might have a finger in bringing in this Trojan-horse under the name of devotion Thirdly Albeit we cannot â—ell day place when and where errours did at first beginne yet that will not make errour truth The Dup 3. Sâ—ddueces taught their was no Resurrection nor Angels can any man tell under what High Priest this errour was broached Shal it be a truth for that So ye have damnable