than you will grant that all particulars must be determined since then as Moses determines the dayes of separation for a legal uncleannesse why doth not the Gospel determine the separation â—oâ— spiritual uncleannesse Nay further consider Moses instituted no Church-Government in the way we use it for that of the Tribe of Levi and house of Aaron was only Typical and to wait on the Temple and the Worship to be performed there Beside which they had Synagogues all the Land over and wherever they had Colonies in the World and in these they had their Rabbies their Scribes and their Rulers and their chief Ruler of their Synagogues which read their Law performed such Worship as was not tyed to the Temple at Ierusalem and they inflicted Discipline upon offenders and these might have been of any Tribe not only of that of Levi and yet our Saviour never challengeth this but went in to the rulers of their Synagogues the like you finde done by his Apostles and they never declame against it as an humane invention Whence it must follow that you must grant either what they did was founded on divine tradition which no Christian will grant or that a form of Government was devised by men and yet no unlawful thing And if the Jews had such liberty certainly the Christian Church is at least more free as to these externals And after all since Christ is the Head of the World as well as of the Church why did not he determine the order of the one as well as of the other N. The odds is very great for his Church is dearer to him than all the world C. Why then doth he not determine how his Church should be governed as to the civil matter since Justice is a part of his Law as well as devotion and the civil peace I hope you will grant is more necessary to the very being of the Church than is order in Discipline and so it was determined in the old Law but yet it is left at liberty in the new And though I should grant the Church as Church is dearer to Christ then as they are men a foolish and childish nicety Yet a King though he looks most to what is dearest to him he will have his authority acknowledged in all his dominions whence it will with the same parity of reason follow that since Christ is the King of the earth there should be no Offices in it but of his appointment N. I never loved this carnal reason it is an enemy to Religion Our Ministers bring us to the Bible for every thing they say but you come on with your reason C. Truly you have good cause to be against reason for it and you cannot both prevail If by carnal reason you mean a sober examining things by the dictates of Nature see that you condemn not that which is indeed the voice of God in us and therefor is to be received And if you make this contrary to Religion you bring as great a stain upon Religion as an Atheist could devise But if by reason you mean little pittiful nibling with some ill understood and worse applied distinctions out of Aristotle and Ramus as is very frequent among you that is justly called vain Philosophy And for Scripture do not think they build surest upon it who are ever quoting it fastest the Devil did that and so do all Sects And thus if you can rightly weigh things I have said enough to convince you that in matters of Government the Church is at liberty But if you will still go to Scripture I can positively say though in it nothing amounts to a demonstration There are fairer likelihoods for Bishops from that of the Angels of the Churches than ever you shall find in it for Presbytery but I will not say more of this Next let me tell you how soon this Government was in the Church N. I will not deny tares sprung very early in Gods Husbandry but that will never convince me To the Law and to the Testimony for from the beginning it was not so C. You do well to possess your self with a prejudice against these Churches but think soberly whether is it likelier that those who lived so nigh the sacred time understood the mind of the Apostles better then we do at the fagg end of an thousand and six hundred years As also whether is it liker that the Church then alwayes in the fire of persecution was purer then she is now God bless me from the pride of comparing my self with these worthies who were honoured to convert the world and to die for the truth N. But Bishops were not in the two first Centuries as our Ministers say C. They are grossly ignorant or disingenuous who say so all History being against them Ignatius Epistles are plain Language The Apostolical Canons a work of very venerable antiquity at least the first 50 of them though none of theirs perhaps all over shew the difference was then betwixt Bishops and Presbyters particularly the 40. Can. The Presbyters and Deacons shall finish nothing without the Bishop's sentence For he is intrusted with the people of God and shall be required to give account of their souls And the same thing was also enjoyn'd Syn. Azel Can. 19. And in Cyprian's time it is undenied that their power was then well regulate and settled For though that great Saint and Martyr tells lib. 3. Epist. 10. That he had decreed in the beginning of his Bishoprick to do nothing without the advice of his Presbyters yet Ep. 9. of that book to Rogatian a Bishop who had asked his advice concerning an affront he had received from a Deacon he sayes that by his Episcopal vigour and authority of his Chair he had power presently to punish him And towards the end of that Ep. he sayes these are the beginnings of Hereticks and the rise and designs of Shismaticks to please themselves and contemn their Bishop with insolent pride And it is clear Presbyters at that time even in the Vacancy of a See did not judge themselves sufficiently impowred for Ecclesiastical administration by what the Presbyters and Deacons of Rome write to Cypr. lib. 2. Ep. 7. saying That since a Bishop was not at that time chosen in place of the deceased Fabian there was none to moderate all things amongst them who might with authority and advice take account of matters Sure they thought little of Presbyters being equal in power to their Bishop who write so of a Church wherein the Episcopal power might seem devolved on them But I believe few of you know these Writings In the Council of Nice speaking of the power of Metropolitans which was an additional thing to that of Bishops over Presbyters The Canon sayes Let the ancient Customs be in force Now how this excressing power should have crept into the whole Church and no mention when it came in no temporal Princes nor universal Councils to introduce it and that at a time of
and faithfull witnesse N. Then you condemn our first reformation carried on by fighting C. Since you go to examples rather begin with the Ages that immediatly followed Christ in which for three hundred years the Gospel was preached and propagated by sufferings but never by fighting though their number enabled them to it and they were irritated by the cruellest provocations and persecutions And it is to be supposed that they who saw and conversed with the Apostles understood their meaning better than these who lived at so great a distance from them I acknowledge there was force used in our Reformation but so much the worse for that And you know the enemy sowes his tares even in that field wherein the Wheat is sowen But never alledge to me the president of men against the expresse Word of God N. What say you then to these who died sealing their opinion fighting for Religion with their blood C. You put me to a hard lock to rake amongst the ashes of the dead As for those who died I had that compassion for some of them that I could willingly have redeemed their lives at the rate of mine own And I doubt not but many sincerely followed their Conscience in it But I am far from thinking the better of the Cause because some died handsomly for it otherwise I should be reconciled to Atheism and all Heresies who want not their pretended Martyrs But I need go no further then England at His Majesties Restauration where the murderers of the late King died gallantly owâ—ing what they did as the Cause of God So the seal of a Martyr's blood is not alwayes the seal of God N. Well but why do you remember bygones We are now all good Subjects and do bless God for His Majesties Restauration and do pray for him more then you do C. May be so that he may be of your way but if that be not I doubt your love to him is very cool I do not remember bygones to bring an odium upon you but to shew that a course which was managed by a spirit of Rebellion was none of Gods As for your rejoycing at His Majesties Restauration I scarce believe it since you will not keep a day of Thanksgiving for it N. It is not that we scruple the thing but because you make it a holy day C. This is very nice for by holy day we mean â—ot that the twenty ninth of May is a more sacred time then other dayes but that the day shall be devoted to holy exercise N. This should not be enjoyned by the Magistrate but by the Church who ought only to order the worship of God C. I shall not against this alledge the commands of David and Solomon since you may alledge they were extraordinary persons but you cannot say that Esther and Mordecai were such who enjoyned the observation of Purim and call that Feast a good day and the odds betwixt holy and good is not very great And although there be no divine order for the Feast of Dedication yet our Saviour was at the Feast and in the Temple though you will not come to Church on the twenty ninth of May. N. Well then all you can charge upon us is a little disloyalty but for all that our way may be the Cause of God for even the Saints have their infirmities C. Truly this is so great a one that I dare pronounce none a Saint who hath been guilty of it till he repent of it But I am far from being at the end of your faults having but begun with this The next thing perswades me of your evil way is your cruelty and rigour Did you not force all to take the Covenant severely punishing such as would not And did you not cruelly persecute all those who opposed you Truly this hath so confirmed my aversion from your way that I hope never to be reconciled to this part of it N. That was a fault too and many of us are very sensible of it C. Let not my soul enter into the secrets of bloody men Your very Leaders who if they had known any thing of the meek spirit should have opposed these severities not only countenanced but drave them on and rejoyced in them And if they think it a fault how comes it that none of them offers to disclaim it Yea some of you in your confessions of sins and causes of wrath rather tax your courses of too great lenity N. Whoever may object that you may be silent for what severity have we felt how many Ministers are turned out and people oppressed for not owning you C. I must in so far justify the rigour you have met with as to show it is far short of yours People are required to do nothing but live peaceably and joyn in Worship whereas you made them swear to you and the Ministers are not made swear to maintain the present establishment and to root out the contrary as you did they are only required to concur in Discipline and to promise submission to Episcopacy N. Do you not wonder at my patience who hear you inveigh so bitterly against us but I let you see a Presbyterian can be calm I hope you have done C. Not yet indeed I am not trying your calmness but your conscience and what I speak is not to irritat but to convince you I shall next take notice of the great insolence and height was among you I speak not of personal pride though I coulâ— say enough on that Head I only tax your public actings What insolence was it to assume biâ— names of the godly party and the people of God â—nd to call your way The Cause and Kingdom oâ— Christ Whether looks this like the Pharisees anâ— Hypocrites or not And in this you were punished with your own weapons for the Protesterâ— wrung that from the rest of you and the Independants assumed it from you both N. I am sure we were the Godly Party compared to those we had to do with C. This bewrayes your arrogance though it were so you ought not to bear witness to your selves nor assume such titles Remember the Pharisee who said I thank the Lord that I am not like this Publican You know the loudest pretenders have not alwayes the justest title N. I hope now you have done with your scolding C. This is like all guilty persons who take every modest representing of their faults to them as scolding and bitterness so did the Jews use St. Paul It shews the sore or disease is desperate when the Patient cannot be touched I have not yet begun to scold but I have not done with admonishing Next How did your Leaders complain of Bishops their medling in matters of State and yet when the Scene turned how absolutely did they govern Church-men grew the advisers of all businesses Juntoes held in their houses And how impudently did the Church countermand the State Anno 1648. even in Civil matters as were the Levying of Armies
and the paying of Taxes And after the Tragical Catastrophe of the unlawfully called unlawful Engagement they barred the Nobility from their priviledges as Peers till they must be satisfied N. All that was done in order to Religion which is in the Churches care C. This is the very Plea of the Pope and indeed in Politicks the Pope and the Presbyterians agree in moe things than you think on By this Maxime all Civil matters must come under Ecclesiastical cognizance since every action can be reduced to one of the Tables of the Law But particularly to medle with War and matters of Blood hath been ever judged directly contrary to the Pastoral duty which obligeth to feed and not to kill But I shall add one thing more which was your Superstition N. I had resolved to have objected that to you and I am sure we cannot be guilty of it since there is nothing we hate more C. You know not the true notion of it and so are guiltier then you are aware of Superstition is an over-rating of things as if God were more pleased with them than indeed he is And therefore to lay too great weight upon any thing is superstition He then that judgeth a thing of it self indifferent to be necessary And he that condemns it as unlawful are equally superstitious It were a long and tedious story to let you see how great weight you laid upon many small matters both in doing and forbearing But I will leave particulars to your conscience and I protest in all I havâ— said I have no other design but to teach you noâ— to have mens persons or wayes too much in admiration N. You have now run out in a long and furiouâ— career against us hear me next reckon the excellent things were amongst us and I doubt not yoâ— shall confesse our good did far preponderat ouâ— evil C. I shall hear you with all my heart but in thâ— mean time let us take a little refreshment anâ— respite N. Be it so DIALOGUE II. â— NOw let us again resume our discourse and tell me what great goodnesse was it which â—o commended your party for I love what is good â—e where it will and therefore though I be none â—f your party yet I shall heartily rejoyce to hear â—ood of them N. I fear you are either so carnal as not to reâ—ish things that are spiritual or so byassed as not â—o set the due value upon us But who can doubt we were the people of God who remember how we bore down sin and wickednesse How much good preaching there was amongst us What ferâ—our was on peoples mindes when they heard Sermons What heavenly prayers we poured out to God But when I remember our Fasts and dayes of Communion my very heart breaks to think these sweet dayes are now gone Then what delight in Scripture had we that all our Vulgar were acquainted with it How well was the Sabbath observed amongst us And what order was there in Families morning and evening All this is now gone Alas for poor Scotland that had once the light of the Gospel so brightly shining in it But now ah ah for the darknesse that hath overspread it had you but seen what I saw your very heart would have been ravished with it C. Truly I expected to have heard some great matter from you of the self-denial contempt of the world resignation humility meeknesse patience obedience charity abstraction of minde and the other great heights of Christian Religion but you tell me only of their external devotion which how good soever it be yet is far from being the Character of a Christian since the very Pharisees were eminent in those things N. I told you you were carnal and savoured not the things of God you look after morality as the great matter but we look after true Christianity C. If by morality you mean the affecting a vertuous behaviour without a dependance on God and Christ I have as low an account of it as any can have but if by morality you mean a pure and holy Conversation I doubt it is the greatest and best part of Religion Without which the other parts are but hypocrisie and formality But I shall examine all these things which seem to knit your hearts so much to that way And shall begin with their diligence in repressing sin I confesse they had a kind of Discipline but it was wholly different from the rules of the Gospel and far short of the ancient Bishops discipline N. I see you undervalue every thing we did but I am sure you have no reason for it C. First then were not your Church-Sessions like Birla-Courts where every one came and complained of wrongs which belonged to the Magistrate for the Church should only meddle with sins as they are Scandals and not as they are injuries Next Dilations according to our Lords rule should not be received till the person be first privately admonished by the party offended next by two or three and if he be obstinat the Church should be told But you observed no such rule Next you imposed and exacted Fines which was the Magistrate's work whereas the Church should take no money but what is offered in Charity You also forced people to stoop to your Discipline for if they refused you threatned them with the temporal sword which by the unhappinesse of the times was too much at your dispose And this sheweth that you did not carry on the Gospel by a Gospel-spirit though that was ever in your mouthes but by secular wayes for offenders should come and offer themselves to Discipline and not be driven to it The time wherein your pennance lasted was also short the ancient Bishops did separate offenders as many years as you did weeks It is also clear you used Discipline to put a temporal shame upon offenders For you set them in a high place to be gazed upon whereas they should have been rather set without the doors of the Church And to conclude how wretchedly did you abuse this subjecting people to censure for your triffling matters when you knew they were acting a mock-penitence and were more zealous to preach against oppositions to your courses than against the oppositions to the everlasting Gospel N. Now you tax us for what we were very free of Was ever sin so boldly reproved as in our Pulpits Our Ministers sparing no rank nor quality C. I confesse some things I say not sins you reproved boldly enough not sparing the Lords Anointed whose pretended faults you like so many unnatural Hams were ready enough to publish when your so doing could have no other effect but to irritate his Subjects against him How often was that sacred Prince charged with Popery Tyranny and the Massacre of Ireland and that Royal Family termed the bloody-house yea after his accursed enemies had murdered him when common humanity should have oblidged you to let the dead alone and Christianity should have taught you to have had more
persecution when the Church was least to be suspected of pride no Secular consideration being to flatter this power nay on the contrary they alwayes bore the first brunt of the Persecution and how none opposed it if this was not introduced by Apostles or Apostolical men passeth my divination Neither can any thing be alledged against this but some few or disjoynted places of some Authors which at most prove that they judged not the origine of Bishops to be Divine But none except Aerius branded upon that account with Heresie both by Augustine and Epiphanius â—id ever speak against the difference was betwixt Bishops and Presbyters And for the few places they alledge should I reckon up all that from these same Authors may be brought for it I should grow too tedious Ierom is he for whom they triumph but upon very small ground for beside that he being but a Presbyter might have exalted his own dignity to the height and his fervent I had almost said fiery spirit drives him along in every thing to an excesse as may appear from not only his ingadgements with Iovin Vigilan and Ruffin but even with the incomparable St. Austine all can be drawen from his words is that the difference betwixt Bishop and Presbyter was only of degree and not of office and that the difference was not of Divine but Ecclesiastical authority but even he expresly confesseth that Presbyters did not ordain and that the origine of the exercising power was in the dayes of the Apostles to prevent Schisms for he sayes that from the dayes of St. Mark till Denis and Heraclas there were constantly Bishops in Alexandria and he compares the Bishop Presbyters and Deacons in the Church to Aaron the High-priest his sons the Priests and the Levites in the Temple and sayes that it was decreed through the whole World that one Presbyter should be set over the rest and to root out the seeds of difference the whole care was laid upon one for all this see Ier. ad Euag. and upon Titus and from this you may see how little shew of ground there is from him or any other Church-writter to reject the Episcopal authority N. But these Bishops were not such as ours are C. I confess they were better men than either Bishops or Presbyters alive are But he knows little Church-story who knows not that the Presbyters did nothing without them and that particularly Presbyters could never ordain without a Bishop N. Well then as it was good then so it may be ill now and there is our present case C. I say still it is a rational just and a most necessary thing that the Senior and most approven Church-men be peculiarly incharged as well with the trial of Intrants as with the inspection of the Clergy since no order of men needs so much to be regulated as that of Church-men And therefore unless they be all equal in gifts and parts they ought not to be equal in power and authority If the power of Bishops be at any time abused it is but that to which all humane things are lyable nor can Presbytery be freed of that but let the common maxime in such cases be applyed to this remove the abuse but retain the use DIALOGUE IV. N YOu have said I confess a great many things that I cannot well answer yet my conscience still tells me that Episcopacy is no good Government and I cannot act against my Conscience C. You must remember this is the Plea of all Hereticks who still pretend Conscience I confess there is nothing in the world wherein I desire to be more tender than in offering the least violence to Conscience there not being a wider step to Atheism than to do any thing against the conviction of Conscience But see it be not humour and wilfulness that you scorn to change your opinion or love to your party whom you dare not displease or vanity that you may be noticed or faction Or simple and blind following of your Leaders without clear convictions in your own mind all which for most part are the true reasons of schisms though Conscience be ever pretended And remember that God will not hold them guiltless that take his Name in vain so you shall not pass unpunished if you pretend Conscience and be not acted by it N. How then must I examine any perswasion to know if it be conscience or not C. If you find in your heart a serious desire to please God in all things together with a desire of obeying the Laws of the Kingdom and of complying with the Church in what you judge lawfull but out of grounds which appear to you founded upon the will of God you are led to a perswasion this is Conscience provided there be joined with it a modest distrust of your self with a charitable opinion of those that differ from you And such as are of this temper were their judgements never so bemisted I reverence and love Weigh the matter therefore in just scales and I doubt you shall see that at best you are led by a blind and implicite obedience for I will not uncharitably censure you as guilty of worse N. You are so proudly blown up with an opinion of your self that you think all who are not of your mind are â—lind and ignorant at best whether is not this arrogance in you C. Consider my grounds ere you give a judgement against me I say then private persons have nothing to do with matters of Government your business is to submit in these things and not to judge For whether think you God in the great day will call you to answer at his Tribunal if you were Episcopal or Presbyterian As also since the great design of the Gospel is to purify the heart these things which have no tendency to the purifying or blotting of the Soul are not matters of Conscience And these are two easie Rules whereby private persons might well examine their Consciences N. But if we think you are wrong can we joyn with you C. First I say you can have no rational ground to think us wrong in matters of Religion And since it is not a matter of Religion and Salvation you cannot without being Schismatical separate from us But further even every errour in Religion ought not to unty the bond of the unity of the Catholick Church unless the errour be of greater importance than the Communion of Saints is a consideration which you never seem to weigh How did the Apostle St. Paul become a Iew to the Iews though he tells us to do these things out of an opinion of necessity in them was to antiquat the crosse of Christ. And let all men judge whether to circumcise and purify in the Temple were not greater compliances in matters more justly to be scrupled than what we contend about Nay the free spirit of Christianity made St. Paul see well that these externals were of themselves nothing so that either doing or forbearing in them might
be acceptable to God as he clearly sheweth in his fourteenth Chapter to the Romans Yea he carrieth this liberty further even to an instance which I confess I should never have yeelded to had not he determined in it that is the eating in the Idols Temples of their feasts and eating meat offered to Idols Now if St. Paul did this freely both to Jew and Gentile are not you bound to more obedience when not only charity but duty to the Laws exact it This sheweth how far you are both from the free and charitable spirit of St. Paul N. It is true he complied in these things but it was freely and not when it was exacted as you do of us Next he avoided to do these things when they occasioned scandal which is our case C. You in this bewray great simplicity for St. Paul did not refuse compliance because they were commanded by authority which you do but because certain false brethren came to spy out his liberty to whom he gave place by subjection no not for an hour If therefore any require your compliance as if it were necessary of it self you have reason to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made you free But it is unsufferable peevishness to say if the Magistrate enjoyn a thing declaring that it is still free in it self and only necessary because it is commanded upon that score to refuse obedience And may not offenders as well refuse to undergo the Discipline you enjoyn them and say though the thing be lawful yet it is but indifferent and therefore they cannot obey you because you command things indifferent which as you reason makes them necessary As for the point of scandal do not mistake it as if the displeasing your party were a giving of scandal as many of you weakly think to give scandal then is to stretch your liberty when that freedom of yours may draw others to follow your practice though they have not the same clearness in their mind And hence it appears that to avoid scandal is only an abridging your liberty for the good of your brother If therefore you be not at liberty but already restrained in it by the lawful command of authority you ought not in that case to be disobedient upon a pretence of avoiding scandal But I shall yet examine the matter of conformity more closly And first why do not your Ministers join with our Courts for Church-discipline N. They cannot do it because they are no Legal Courts the Law that established them being taken away so that now they are but the Bishops Deputies C. I have before studied to convince you that all that is divine in Discipline is that scandalous persons be noted and separated from worship but how this shall be administered can be no matter of Religion since wherein are souls concerned whether a Court acting in a parity or with one over them do this providing it be done But waving this whether judge you the Presbyters power for Discipline is founded upon a Divine Law or upon the Act of Parliament no doubt you will say the first well then can the abolishing that Act of Parliament take away your power if not you ought to sit in these Courts and still do your duty N. But this is to sit in a Bishops Court which acknowledgeth his authority C. I pray you suppose the case that the King should abrogate all Laws for the worship of God and declare that all that assemble to worship God shall be understood to worship Mahomet and thereupon oblidge all to meet though you meet not upon that command yet I hope you will still meet to worship God let them interpret that as they please So I say since a power of Jurisdiction is that to which Presbyters lay claim by a divine right they ought to meet in these Courts let the Law call it what it will N. But the Bishop is over them and over-ruleth them as he pleaseth C. But suppose this were true and that Episcopacy is a tyranny in the Church Why ought you not to submit to them as well as you did to the late Tyrants in the State And why as your Ministers say they will be content to take Churches and preach but let Discipline alone which is a quiting of some of their Rights that they may retain the greater May they not as well exercise Discipline though they cannot do it with all the liberty they desire Sure there is nothing but peevishness in this N. Do you think our Ministers would quite their Churches and liberty of Preaching the Gospel which is dearer to them than all the world for any thing but Conscience C. I am not so severe as to doubt but in most of them it is Conscience but I must adde it is ill informed Conscience But what can you pretend for your peoples withdrawing from our Churches since our Religion in Doctrine Worship and Discipline is the same only a small alteration in the point of Government is made N. I am not for separating from you as my practice tells but much may be said for it therefore I will judge none that do it C. Truly I desire to be as sparing in passing Judgements on people as any can be but since separation must be either a necessary duty or a very great sin being a forsaking the unity of the Church it can be no light matter to tear the Body of Christ when there is scarce a colour of pretence for it Now the Schismatical humour among you appears palpably in this that you come sometimes to Church but seldom this seems indeed to be time-serving that you may both evite the punishment of the Law and also retain your interest with your party for if you come once in three moneths you may come every Lords day and if you may come you ought to come otherwise you forsake the assemblings of the Saints and contemn what you call the Ordinances Others of you also joyn with some of us but not with others Now as to our publick transgressions if they be such we are all equally guilty why then make you a difference Others of you come to Churches in the Countrey but do not so in the City what doth this look like but that you have freedom for the thing but will not do it for fear of being noticed which is to prefer the pleasing of men to the pleasing of God And finally some of you joyn with us in the ordinary Worship but will not communicat with us which bewrayes great solly for if you may pray and praise with us which is the spiritual communicating why do you not joyn in the Eucharist which is but solemn praise N. How can we acknowledg them our Pastors who are intruders and are in the places of our faithful shepherds whom you have torn from us C. Supposing it were as you assert yet that will never warrand your separating from them since although by the Law of Moses the eldest of the
will find no difference in this since you cannot say we are bound to use the Psalms in Meeter or with Tunes for nothing proves we ought to use them with vocal Tunes but will conclude as strongly for all Davids Instruments Besides who told you that all David's Psalms were to be constantly used in Worship It is clear most of them was not intended for constant use they relating to particulars of David's History and Victories which belongs not to us And it is hard to say we ought to sing his imprecatory Psalms As also many things are in the Psalms which we cannot sing because we do not understand them And it is clear we ought to praise God with our understandings and not above twenty of the Psalms were used by the Jews in Worship To conclude why may not the Christian Church compose new Hymns as they of Corinth did for which they are approven by St. Paul And this is the more necessary because from David's Psalms we are not furnished with such full and clear Hymns upon the great Mysteries of the Christian Belief as were needful And what kind of reasons can you have who plead so much for a liberty in Prayer and yet allow none in making of Hymns Why then do not ye use the Glory to the Father N. Because it is not in the Scripture and is but a device of men C. Who would not be sick with such pitiful folly Show me a reason why you may make prayers and not praises Beside are not your Meeter Psalms a device of men And they recede from the Text as I can trace it in an hundred places as much as the Doxology doth from Scripture words And you understand Musick little if you do not know that the Psalms in Prose may be sung as well and as Musically as they can be in Ryme Besides since the Mystery of the S.S. Trinity is not so clearly in the Old Testament nor in any Psalm why may not the Church use an acknowledgement of it in the end of their singing as well as in the end of prayer is ordinarily said To the Father Son and Holy Ghost be glory for ever and ever Such childish weakness makes me sometimes doubt whether your rational faculties be not troubled since what difference can you pretend betwixt singing and saying But I will return to Prayer Consider next how Hosea the Prophet prescribes a form when he saith take with you words and say c. Our Saviour also prayed thrice and though the third time was more fervently yet it was in the same words which shows that fervour consisteth not in a varying of the phrase Next it is clear that in the Church they used forms very early since in the Council of Laodicea it was decreed that the same Liturgy of Prayer should be used morning and evening Itâ— is true there was not an universal Liturgy then agreed to but Bishops had their several Liturgies So we have the Liturgies of St. Basile St. Chrysostome and St. Ambrose not to mention those of St. Iames and St. Mark But never were extemporary heats used in the Church and all the Reformed Churches have their Liturgies so we had ours at our first Reformation N. But we are a purer Church than any of them and therefore we are not to learn of them C. I know you were made believe that all the world were wondring at you but this was a cheat upon you like that of your alledged Prophetess for I can assure you there was no such thing true One thing is strangely inconsequential amongst you you will not pray in a Liturgy and yet you alwayes bless the people in a set form Do you think prayer for a blessing is not a prayer Or do you think the spirit is not stinted when the form is short but only when it is long Sure these things shew you are not governed by reason N. What then conclude you from all this is it that the English Liturgy be brought in C. It is that you consider better how you ought to worship God As for the English Liturgy I do not say any thing is absolutely perfect but God yet till I see a better Liturgy compiled which I never hitherto did pardon me to think it an excellent rule for Worship although your deep but groundless prejudices against it have rendred you so uncapable of receiving good by it that such is your Soveraign's Princely tenderness and your Superiours discreet prudence that they do not obtrude on you while you are but babes this stronger food but are willing to let you be doing with your milk N. This is easie way for men to read their Prayers off their Books God keep us long from it C. Truly if by easiness you mean what is pleasant to a man it is far from it for certainly the natural man would be much better pleased to be running out with his own conceptions and to have all the Worship depending upon his lips this is indeed to be Rabbi But to use the form of the Church is a more simple and a more humble way of Worship N. I begin to think you can have no piety who are so in love with that dead and dull Worship C. Would to God you and I had more of it than we have but it is perhaps your stupidity that makes you dead and dull in it And I know godly people who protest they never in their lives worshipped God with more pure and simple devotion than when they joined in the English Liturgy-worship therefore in such matters speak more modestly N. But what vain repetitions are in the Liturgy how often redouble they Lord have mercy upon us C. I have not yet asserted that it is in all things perfect but truly I can think that no fault except you will also quarrel with the Psalms particularly with the 136. in which is repeated 26. times for his mercy endureth for ever it being in every verse But in the true sense of vain repetitions I fear there is ground to say many of â—our prayers may be censured for them N. But what a confusion is it that all say some of the prayers together and use Amen C. It seems you have read the Scripture well else you would have found Acts 4. how a whole company there lifted up their voice to God with one accord and said c. And St. Paul plainly intimates that there was a custome of saying Amen at the giving of thanks Why then do you not in this follow the express Scripture-rule And what imaginable ground is there that the people shall all with their voice join in the Psalms and not also in the Prayers N. Well I see you are zealous for that Service-book but should you speak till to morrow you should never perswade me to join in it but are you as keen for the Ceremonies C. I verily believe your prejudice against it though ill grounded yet is so deep that no reason will overthrow it but
perhaps if you saw that worship gravely managed you should be more reconciled to it As for the Ceremonies I will medle with none but such as were commanded here well known by the name of the five Articles of Perth And for these if you can hear â—nd understand reason I doubt not to convince â—ou they were both lawful and most of them â—oth useful and necessary I begin with confirmation N. Well is not this a Popish Sacrament which you would bring into the Church C. I confess if it had been introduced as a Sacrament you had reason to except against it but you know no such thing was ascribed to it and it was only designed for a solemn renovation of the Baptismal Vow Now since Children are baptized and so in Baptism do not ingage foâ— themselves can any thing be more rational than that when they come to the years of discretion they do it themselves And this Rite waâ— very ancient in the Church and with great show of reason the laying on of hands mentioned witâ— Baptisms Heb. 6. was expounded of it and yoâ— know most Reformers were for it N. But why must it be done only by a Bishop as if it were beyond Baptism C. That was only to conciliat the more veneration for it by making it the more solemn and therefore it hath been generally appropriated to the Bishop Yet I shall not contend about that since St. Ambrose or rather Hilary saith that in Egypt the Presbyters in the Bishop's absence did confirm And St. Ierom saith that â— Bishop did nothing except the Ordination whicâ— a Presbyter did not likewise The next Articlâ— was private Baptism N. This was another piece of Popery to makâ— the Sacraments necessary to Salvation C. It is rather gross Superstition to confirâ— the Sacramental actions to the walls of a Church for it is the assembly of the faithful that makes â— Church Our Saviour said Where two or three are gathered together in my Name I will be in the midst of them As for the necessity of the Sacraments none calls them simply necessary to Salvation but since they were commanded they ought to be used unless some more cogent reason stop the use of them than is the want of a dedicated House And who should expect that they who are so much against reverence to Sacred Houses should likewise be against private Sacraments As for Baptism what a cruel thing is it to oblidge Children especially when they are tender to be brought perhaps in the coldest season many miles rather than go and Baptize at their Houses this looks liker Heathenish barbarity than the Christian tenderness And for Communion why should not sick persons receive on death-bed when all the reasons of receiving are most strong Their faith and love needs then to be most quickened Never is the death of Christ more to be remembred than when they are to pass through the valley and shadow of death and never is it more fit that they declare their Communion with the Church and their love to the Brethren than when they are entering upon their last pangs And it is well known how early a practice this was in the Church of God Iustin Martyr tells that they sent of the Eucharist to them that were absent and by the famous Story of Serapion about the 200. year it is apparent how necessary the Christians then thought it was to be guarded with this holy Viaticum Private Sacraments then are not proposed as necessary but as highly expedient which I think I have made appear they are N. But what can you say for kneeling in receiving sure this looks like Superstition and Idolatry C. I confess this is the Article of them all I have the least fondness on but it is great uncharitableness to call it Idolatry when such as do so declare they neither believe Christ to be corporally present nor do they intend any Worship to the Bread and Wine but direct their worship to God and Christ for that death which is therein shewed forth N. But why do not you sit since our Saviour did institute this rite in the Table-gesture C. Since you do not exactly follow Christ you ought not to stand at this none therefore should alledge this but such as Communicat leaning and after supper and in an upper Room And though the Passover was ordained to be eaten by the Jews standing with their loins girt and their shooes on their feet yet without any written warrand they changed that posture into the ordinary eating posture and did eat the Passover leaning in which our Saviour conformed to them And if the Jews against an expresseâ— precept without any countermand may changâ— the posture sure the Christians who are lesse restrained as to outwards may change the gestureâ— especially there being no command for it and but a lame example since our Saviour did not sit but lean And perhaps more veneration is due to that action now that our Saviour is exalted than he could have allowed of in his humiliation N. What can you say for holy dayes can any man make dayes holy C. If by holy dayes you mean portions of time so sacred that in these dayes our services are more acceptable to God than on other dayes or that of their own nature they are holy so that of it self it is a sin not to be particularly devout on these dayes you have reason to say none can make a day holy And this was never asserted But it is another thing to keep peculiar dayes of thanksgiving for the great and signal mercies of the Gospel-dispensation I confesse I am so dull as not to be able to apprehend what evil can be in such customs And it is undoubted that in all ages and places of the Church Christians have had a peculiar veneration for these Dayes St. Paul saith of the legall holy Dayes he that regardeth a day to the Lord he doth regard it And if Moses his Feasts might have been kept holy to the Lord much more may these be which the Church hath instituted Beside you know the observation of Easter and Pentecost are according to clear History derived from Apostolical practices And it appears St. Paul hasted to be at Ierusalem to keep the feast of Pentecost there And from all this I may assume that your dislike of these Festivals and the other Articles of Perth is ill grounded DIALOGUE VI. N. I See we have no reason to hope for any good from you who are so fierce against uâ— â—uâ— God be thanked an ill-willed Cow hath froâ—â—â—orns C. If by fiercenesse you mean a desire to see you â—uined and destroyed you mistake me quite since there is none living moâ—â— a verse from fierce and violent â—ourses than my self I love all Christians who live according to the rules of the Gospel And I pity such as I judge mistaken knowing how subject I am to errour my self I quarrel with no man for his opinion in these matters which are
transcribed The authors who plead for this are only Courtiers Cannonists and Iesuits Now how are you not ashamed in a matter of such importance to symbolize with the worst gang of the Roman Church for the soberer of them condemn it yet fill heaven and earth with your clamours if in some innocenter things the Church of England seem to symbolize with them N. No you still retain the Papacy you only change the person from the Pope to the King whom you make head of the Church and swear to him in these termes C. This is so impudent a calumny that none but such as have a minde to reproach would use it which I shall clear by giving an account of the whole matter In England you know the Pope beside his general tyranny exercised a particular authority after King Iohn had basely resigned the Crown to him vide Matth. Paris ad An. 1213. When therefore the Reformation was introduced in England and the Papal yoke shaken off the oath of Supremacy was brought in to exclude all forreign jurisdiction and to reinstate the King in his civil authority over all persons and in all causes as well ecclesiastical as civil I confesse Henry the eight did directly set up a civil Papacy but you know the Reformation of England was never dated from his breach with the Bishop of Rome But the oath of Supremacy was never designed to take away the Churches intrinsick power Or to make that the power of Ordination giving Sacraments or Discipline flowed from the King to which he only gives his civil sanction and confirmation However because the words being general might suggest some scrouples they are clearly explained in an Act of Parliament of Queen Elizabeth and in one of the 39 Articles and more fully by the incomparable and blessed Bishop Vsher to whom for his pains King Iames gave thanks in a letter Now this Oath being brought from England to Scotland none ought to pretend scrouples since both the words in themselves are sufficiently plain and the meaning affixed to them in England is yet plainer And we having it from them must be understood to have it in their sense N. But this clearly makes way for Erastianism C. This is one of your mutinous Arts to find out long and hard names and affix them to any thing that displeaseth you In the Old Testament you find the Kings of Iudah frequently medling in Divine matters and the Sannedrim which was a civil court determined in all matters of Religion And you are very ignorant in History if you know not that the Christian Emperours still medled in matters of Religion The first general Councils were called by them as appears by their Synodical Acts and Epistles And by the accounts all the Historians give they also preceeded in the Councils so Constantine at Nice Theodose at Constantinople Earl Candidianus in name of Theodose the second at Ephesus and Martian at Chalcedon It s true in preceeding they only ordered matters but did not decide in them as particularly appears from the Commission given to Earle Candidianus inserted in the Acts of the Ephesin Council They also judged in matters of schisme so Constantine in the Donatist bussinesse even after it had been judged both by Miltiades and Marcus Bishops of Rome and Millan by the Synod of Arles and by the Council of Nice Yea the Code and Basilicks and the Capitolers of Charles the great shew they never thought it without their sphere to make lawes in Ecclesiastick matters The Bishops also were named by them or at least their elections were to be approven by them not excepting the Roman Bishop though he was the proudest pretender of all who after the overthrow of the Western Empire was to send to Constantinople or Ravenna to get his Election ratified and when the Western Empire was reasumed by Charles the great at Rome it was expresly provided that the Emperour should choose the Roman Bishop So Kings medling in Ecclesiastical affaires was never contraverted till the Roman Church swelled to the height of Tyranny and since the Reformation it hath been still stated as one of the differences betwixt us and them N. Well then I hope you who are so much for the Kings Supremacy will not quarrel at this indulgence which is now granted to us C. We are better subjects then to criticize upon much lesse condemn our Soveraigns pleasure in such things neither do we as you did carry all these matters to the Pulpit But I pray how would you Anno 1641. have received such a proposition from the King in favours of the Doctors of Aberdeen or other worthy persons whom you drove away by tumults not by lawes I doubt all your Pulpits should have rung with it And we may guesse at this by the opposition many of you made to the receiving of suspected persons into the Army for the necessary defence of the Countrey then almost overrun by the enemy so that you have now got a favour which you were never in a capacity to have granted to us when you governed and yet you see with what cheerfull obedience we receive his Majesties pleasure even in an instance which may seem most contrary to all our interests Or if any have their jealousies they stiffle them so within their breast that none whisper against authority N. This sayes it is against your will and therefore your compliance to it is forced not voluntary C. So much the greater is our vertue when we obey and submit to things against our inclinations which you never dream of but we are so inclined to peace that if you abuse not this liberty you have got we shall never complain of it nay if it produce the effects which we desire and for which we are assured it is designed we shall rejoyce for it which are to bring you to a more peaceable temper to make you value and love more one of the Noblest and most generous Princes that ever ruled and to dispose you to a brotherly accommodation with us which the Fathers of the Church are ready to offer to you on as fair terms as could be demanded by any rational person whereby if you listen not to them it will appear to the world that you are truly Schismatical And to encline you more to union I intend at our next meeting to give you a full prospect of the state of the antient Church both in their Government Worship and Discipline whereby I doubt not to convince you that their frame was far better suited for promoting all the ends of Religion then ever Presbytery could be But though I have made considerable observations in this besides what is in various Collectors yet I cannot at present give you so particular a plann as I design but shall reserve it till another meeting Mean-while do not abuse our Soveraigns royal goodness nor the tenderness of these he sets over you But let us all jointly pray that God in whose hands all our hearts are