church is the foundatiō of the vuorld and therfore the common wealth builded vpon yt must be framed vnto yt he saith that yt is obscure c. But it is for wāt of light in hym self for otherwise the thing is clear And to leau Salomons prouerb which Rabbi Leui Ben Gerson doeth so interpret and whereof in deed the sens may wel be that where the wicked are caried away with the tempest the iust not onely stand fast but be the cause why the world standeth I say to leau that S. Peter playnly confirmeth that the cause why this world endureth is for that the ful number of the elect is not yet gathered so that as sone as they are assembled by the ministery of the church there shal be forthwith an end of the world As for that he bringeth against this yt is vnworthy the rehersal for of the thre first he can conclude nothing and his last answer is no better For yt talketh of a change of that which is laid vpon the foundatiō wherunto the common wealth is likened and is that which I affirm but of changing the foundation wherunto the church is compared not a word the two next diuisions be answered Here he presseth that which he inferreth of the Admo ▪ that if the rule of moe in the church be better then of one because it is easier to turn one then a company from truth and equity it should therfore folow that the moe that gouern the better it should be which he hath now mended by putting for moe moe good men nothwithstāding that this also is but sophistry For by the same form of reasoning it should folow that because two bittes of meat norish more thē one therfore the more a mā eateth the more he shal be norished he should therefore vnderstand that as there is in this gouernment a defect so there is an exces and betwene boeth a mean vuhich is to be houlden and that as the comodity of hauing the church iudgmentes handled by a company is to be sowght after so the inconuenience and confusion of assembling a great multitude for euery ecclesiastical case that may befal is to be avoided Beside that it is not enowgh that they which should gouern be good mē oneles they be of greater counsail and iudgment then the rest of the body of which sort when he wil not affourd vs any iust numbre he might wel haue spared this obiection Yf it were greatly to the matter it were easy to shew moe lavuful formes of common vuealths thē three Likewise that althowgh commō wealthes haue their names of that which beareth the cheif sway yet that they are to their profit tēpered and mixed one with another singularly the monarchy This is to be seen namely in our land where to the passing of diuers thinges the consent of the Parliamēt is so required as that withowt yt those matters can not pas The next is already partly and partly commeth after to be answered Here he denieth most shamefully that he alledged Ambrose to proue that Seniors owght not to be vnder a Christian Prince For boeth the sentence immediatly going before and folowing after driue thereunto yea and that he affirmeth vpon confidēce of Ambrose saying onely for other proof he hath not It is therfore to great bouldnes that he asketh me why I gathered the tyme betwene Phillip and Ambrose Then he denieth that the Eldership florished in Constantines tyme but he is much to blame For the Centuries wherin he hath bene raking so often must needes haue tould hym that the same orders and functions of the church were in that tyme which were before And it is manifest that the churches were gouerned vnder hym as before by Bishops Elders and Deacons by that which is recited of an infinite number of Elders and Deacons vuhich came to the Councel of Nice vuith the 250 Bishops moreouer yt being before declared and in part confessed by him that this gouernment was before Constantines tyme if he be not able to shew that Constantin changed yt the same must be presumed After not denying but that it might be vnder some Christian Prince he saith that it is not the question whether it may be but whether it owght to be which how vntrue it is let the reader iudg of that I haue before noted To Ierom that saith that the Christian church hath her Eldership he answereth they were Ministers of the word and Sacramentes his reason because they were such as S. Paul speaketh of vnto Timothe maketh for vs which haue shewed that S. Paul speaketh there of Elders that gouern onely which may be better vnderstanded in that Ierom compareth them with the Eldership of the Iues which was as hath b appeared a seueral order from the Priestes and Scribes that interpreted the law and offered the sacrifices Duarenus also helpeth him not rather he maketh against him For in that he saith that the Canons succeded into the place of the Elders he declareth that the Canons are of another order then they were As when Ierome saith that the Bishops succeded vnto the Apostles he meaneth not that the Bishops are of the same degre and order of ministery with the Apostles the next I leau to the readers iudgment Vnto Ambrose he answereth yf he misliked the abrogating of this Seignory why did he not labour to restore yt That he misliked yt is manifest when he condemneth the Ministers of the vuord of negligence for suffering it to vuear ovut of the church or rather of pride vuhilest they onely vuould seme to be some vuhat he labored also in part to restore yt in that he reprehended the abolishing of yt whether he did further labour or no is not expressed the best is to be supposed which is that to his power he endeuored to set in that the want whereof he condemneth But Ambrose was no lord Bishop that he could doe in the church whatsoeuer he desired his extreme bouldnes in denying that ether he was abused or would haue abused other let the reader iudg of also in that he saith Ambrose maketh nothing for our cause to whose iudgmēt I also leau the next diuision Yf he denie that church officers which hādle church matters and vuatch ouer the sovules of mē be ecclesiastical officers then let hym deny also that two and two make fower But so gentilmen and handycraftes mē should be ecclesiastical persons why not if they be chosen thereto were S. Paul and Isay the Prophet no ecclesiastical persons because one was a Tentmaker the other of the kinges stok Nether occupations nor dignities haue any such mark of vncleannes or profanation that they may not be coupled with the church ministery when the ministery is such as togither with their professions they may also execute yt in which kinde is the Eldership of the church I omit that the D. hath here patched togither a sentence of M. Caluin before
not occupied in the church ministery were willingly taken for assistance in ciuil iudgmentes which is because they being better acquainted with the law of god then commonly the rest of the tribes were consequently better seen in the iudicials by which the common wealth of the Israelites was gouerned And that al the Leuites were not applied vnto the ministery may appear by the example of a Banaias the high Priests son high Constable or general of the host Before I come to the Ans arguments I desire the reader to obserue that althowgh he hath owt of the auncient writers borowed certein places to iust with those which I haue taken from thence yet owt of the holy scripture whereof he should haue made the base and foundation of his defence he hath browght nothing But let vs see them such as they are Eusebius saith he calleth Constantine as yt were a general Bishop That maketh no more to proue that the iudgment of ecclesiastical causes belonged vnto him then that he calleth hym a Doctor apointed of god to al nations proueth hym to haue bene a publik preacher of the word Rather as he was called a Doctor because that the doctrine taught by the Bishops was maynteyned by his autority not for that he taught him self so he is called the general Bishop for that he caused them to meet in Councel protected them when they were there kept them in peace maynteyned with his princely autority that which was godlyly decreed not for that he determined the matters hym self This may also appear in his epistle to the churches where willing to draw credit vnto the decrees of that Councel he doeth not say that they were his but the Bishops decrees And in deed yt might more iustly be concluded that he was a minister of the word by the one place then by the other that he made ecclesiastical lawes of his own autority considering that the place browght by him is delaied and laid in water by that he calleth him not a Bishop simply but as it vuere a Bishop where as the other place is not so And it is further to be obserued that the word Bishop is taken some tymes generally for any ouerseer and not onely for the church Minister In which respect Constantyne calleth him self a Bishop but putteth a manifest difference betwene his Bishoprik and theirs namely that the church officers were Bishops and ouerseers of thinges vuithin the church and he Bishop or ouerseer of those that vuere vuithovut the church whereby he clearly also establisheth the distinction of the church and common wealth vnder a Christian Prince Hether also may be referred that of Hillary which exhorteth Constans that he would prouide that the gouernours of his prouinces vnder hym should not praesume to take vpon them the iudgment of ecclesiastical causes where also the same autor further affirmeth that the common vuealth matters onely belonged vnto them Likewise that Ambrose saith That Palaces belong vnto the Emperour but the churches vnto the Minister and that he had autority of the commoÌ„ vualles of the city and not ouer holy thinges That of Constantyne and after of Iustinian making lawes touching godlines as against the worship of Images c. is idle considering that it is nothing but an execution of that which is commanded of god and withowt the compas of thinges which fal into the church is consultation For in thinges which he is assured of to be the vnuariable truth of god who douteth but that he not onely may but owght also to mayntein them with his autority Sauing that if there be a general dowt raised what is the law of god therein to the end that the the truth may haue better cours and that the conscience may be prouided for there is herein great caution to be vsed For least that which is godly should be doeÌ„ vngodlily that is to say ignorantly or doutfully and to the end that the autors of error being conuinced may doe les hurt and finally to the end that the punishmeÌ„t of the obstinate may be boeth more iust and les grudged at yt belongeth vnto the ciuil Magistrate to cal as did the godly Emperour CoÌ„stantine a councel of the ministery by whome as by gods interpreters the people may receiu a resolution warranted by substantial groundes owt of hys word Yet so far it is that we suspend vpon the Councels determination the putting in execution of such as he is assured to be the vnchangeable commaundementes of god that boeth before in and after the Councel yea and howsoeuer they determin we esteme that the Prince owght to procure by al godly and conuenient meanes that such lawes of god haue place at the least that the contrary be not suffered not so much as if it might be one onely hower That owt of the Chalcedon councel that the orders there made were by the Emperours autority because they cried long life vnto the Senate and Emperour is vnsufficient For althowgh it was vnmeet that in such graue meetinges there should be vsed such shoutinges as then appeared to haue bene the maner when they liked or misliked any thing which was more fit for stage playes then for such a graue company yet who seeth not that there was cause enowgh why thanckes should be giuen vnto the Emperour for his care his paynes and his charges in calling and confirming yt althowgh nether the iudgment were his nor apperteyned vnto him Now touching the places alledged by me in the first gros ouersight there is none seing there is not a word in that place which enforceth external buildinges For in steed of that which is turned buildinges the greek hath vuorkes or affaiers also for that of selling the buildinges there is no such thing in the greek nether as I think owght to be For the place which no dowt is corrupt in Eusebius may be restored owt of Theodoret that reporteth the same epistle Howbeit whether it be vnderstood of the owtward or inward buildinges I wil not striue and I rather think that it is of the owâ—ward then otherwise considering that that seemeth to be more simple To the second where the Emperour confesseth the Bishops matters not to pertayn to him he answereth that the Emperour of modesty refused the determination But what modesty is yt to say that which is vntrue or what modesty to affirm that yt belongeth not to hym which is by yow his office and committed to him of god especially vnto his subiectes For it might haue more colour if yow had said that it were modesty for a Bishop to say that to administer the word and sacramentes belong not to hym but vnto the Prince Beside that yf he would haue shewed forth modesty he would haue rather said that he was not worthy then to say that it vuas not lavuful for him to doe yt To that that the Emperour vuould not determin of Arius heresy but committed
this was also the cause no dowt why Iustin Martyr and Hermes after they were called to function in the church are said to haue continued their Philosophers apparel By how much more I mervaile at the D. inconstancy which page 275 citeth a sentence to proue that the chāge of the apparel in the mynistery as wel as in other estates is not material He alledged also one of these examples to wit of Iustin wearing a Philosophers apparel after his receiuing to the ministery which he would neuer haue doen yf there had bene an vniform faschion of apparel appointed vnto the Ministers Vnles peraduenture he wil say that al the rest of the Ministers did wear Philosophers apparel as wel as he which is vntrue seing this is noted of them as of rare examples Vnto the particular reasons of Birrus because he could not answer he hath feyned a nw signification of a thyn plate contrary to the autority of the Calepine that proueth yt to be a garment of cours and heary cloth of no price His Dalmatica also yf yt were as he imagineth with wide sleeues maketh not a whit to proue yt a peculier garment Contrariwise the word signifiyng Slauonish declareth that yt was not proper to any degree of men but to the cuntrey ether because the cloth or faschion came from thens His reason that they were particular kinde of uestimentes because the names be expressed is to shameful as yf there were no other cause to name them whereas the naming of thē maketh to the certeinty of the story And further in Cyprians garmentes yt maketh to his commendation which in giuing his garmentes according to the quality of the persons vsed discretiō and declareth hym to haue bene of a present minde in the very point of death The particular reason of the cloke he hath let fallen flat yet is yt their reason whose names he pretendeth for other aswel as for this To that I replied of the white apparel in Chrisostomes tyme that he rather reprehendeth yt when he saith that ▪ their dignity is not in the vuearing thereof but in taking hede to their ministery he answereth that yt is spoken by comparison but that is onely said I graunt we sometymes speak in that meaning but that is nether the simplest nor vsualest kīde of speach To proue that the white apparel was with thē nothing els then a more honest apparel as blak with vs I alledged Salomon wherein his interpretation of innocency is not innocent as that which ouerturneth the whole sute of the text That of ioy wil not stand considering that that was mentioned before and the scripture vseth commonly to send the figuratiue speaches before rather then to place them after althowgh I graunt yt is a thing annexed with ioy But that yt is to be vnderstanded of the white apparel vsed in those partes yt is manifest by the oyl of the head which is ioyned in the same vers considering that yt ys knowen that the a vse thereof amongest the richer sort especially when they would recreate them selues was commō where he excepteth that this custome might be changed betwene Salomons and Chrysostoms tyme he owght to haue shewed yt for such a custome once proued is stil presumed vntil the cōtrary appear Albeit in Tullies tyme many ages after Salomon yt appeareth that the Romanes which with the East empire translated a nomber of East fashions at bankets when men attire them selues more honestly vsed to wear a white garment But yt shal appear that this white garment had the same estimation in Ieroms tyme and therefore also in Chrisostoms Hether therefore pertayneth that page 282 of the white garment vsed in diuine seruice and alledged owt of Ierom where the D. being required to answer the reasons of the reply to the examiner by which yt is maynteyned that no special mark of apparel in the seruice of god is meāt saith he purposeth not at this tyme which in good english is as much to say as he can not For otherwise he must needes be in damages which arresting so violently and so infamously one that said nothing to hym in calling his proof a chiledish cauil now being called vpon putteth in no declaration against hym His pretence because I set not the repliers reasons down is vayn for he that toke the paynes to read his book to accuse hym should haue doen the same to haue conuinced hym especially seing yt was yet neuer answered But because he saith that the place which he cyteth owt of the councel of Carthage may be a sufficient confutation of al which is said of Ieroms places seing we haue no credit with hym let hym hear Erasmus which affirmeth that vuhite garmentes vuere in Ieroms tyme in great price and that the vuearing of them vuas for honors sake accorded vnto the Priestes but not vnto the Monkes sauing onely in deuine seruice Vuhereby yt is manifest that the white garmentes which Priestes did wear in the deuine seruice was as we say their holyday apparel and vsed of them as wel with owt the church as within So is yt also apparant that the place of the Carthage councel towching the Deacons white apparel ys nothing els but that the Deacon did in the church onely wear that apparel which the Bishops and Priestes as those which were more estemed did wear boeth within an withowt the church Nether is there any necessity that he should translate the wordes of the Councel in maner of a cōmandement vnto the Deacon to wear a white garment feing the word may aswel be turned he may vuear as let hym wear and better also For considering that yt was as hath bene shewed graunted for honors sake yt is more agreable with the nature of honor to leau yt free then to driue hym to the wearing of yt whether he wil or no. whereupon likewise ensueth that there is not like cause in our countrey of wearing a white garment which was in theirs yt beīg stage like with vs which was graue and honorable with them As for Ierōs place owt of Ezechiel the Ans doeth shamefully abuse his reader For he speaketh of the vse of the Iues vnder the law and not of vs which appeareth manifestly in that he opposeth that ceremony of the law vnto the maner of the Aegiptiō Priests vuhich vuore boeth vuithin the church and vuithovut vuhereas the Priestes in the lavu did vuearonely vuithin the church This appeareth again in that which he addeth by and by that this vuhite apparel vuearing is fulfilled in the gospel vuhen vue put on Christ. For further reply herein I refer the reader partly vnto the answer vnto the Examiner which to take away the D. excuse I would haue gathered and set down yf I had had the book partly to the Bishop of Salisbury who sheweth owt of Augustin and Ierom vuith others that the Ministers nether vuere in tymes past nor ovught to haue bene discerned by any special
elder church was such 109 110. whether refer that where they meddled with ether the administration of the word or Sacraments they did yt by a nw cōmission and not by vertu of the Deaconship 109. Also of the godly learned of our age M. Bucer Caluin Martyr Beza 99 109 113. The Deaconship owght to be in euery Church 113 114. Likewise vnder a Christian Magistrate 100 111 112 113. Tractate the eleuenth page 116. Of the corruptions in doctrine about the holy Sacraments the first chapter whereof is against the sacriledg of priuate persons wemen especially in administring baptim because Yt confirmeth the error of the condēnatiō of thē which dy withowt baptim 133. when as the want of baptim oneles yt be with neglect or cōtemt is not onely no probable sign of condemnation or cause why we are no Christians but also is in no respect praeiudicial and where that neglect or cōtemt is which can be none when yt is with al conuenient speed browght to be baptized by the publik minister in the congregation yt returneth vpon the parents onely 124 125 134 135. Yt is void which is so ministred 134. because the washing from our synnes coming onely frō our Sa. Christ to haue confirmation of our faith by this sacramēt yt is required that yt be ministred by hym whome he hath set in his place 138 139. As the princis seal stollen and set to by one to whome yt belongeth not bringeth no security c. 139. whether refer that yt is more lawfully administred by a minister which is an heretik then by a priuate person which is a catholik 131. Also that not to haue he rein chois of hym that administreth the sacrament approcheth to the dotage of the papists in the Shepards consecration 138. Hether refer that the keping of the wordes I baptiz the in the name c. are not onely of the substance of baptim 136 137 138. As he that propoundeth the word withowt vocation preacheth not 141 142. As he that taketh part of the wordes of the scripture passing by another part propoundeth not the scripture but a devise of his own brain 141. As the communicatiō in bread withowt the cup is no supper of the lord 140. As a priuate man which killing a murtherer executeth no iustice but is hym self a murtherer 139. As the seal of the same matter and figure with the Princis withowt his autoritie is none of his 139. God hath instituted that those onely should baptiz which haue that wemen can not vocation to preach 116 117. Hether refer the making of the Ark 117 118. Also of S. Paul which hauing commission to preach as a thing annexed to preaching administred baptim 118 119. further that otherwise there should be no commandement in the scripture to hinder that wemen may not aswel be taken to the ordinary administration of the sacramentes as men 118 119. Hether also refer that alledged of the wemens preaching 122 123. of Pauls baptizing and others at the commandement of Peter withowt a calling 119 120 121. Origins example 130 131. None may take honor vnto hym self but he that is called as was Aron 128. No not so much as in priuate howses althowgh they may teach privately 124. Nor in the tyme of the supposed necessity 128 129 130 132. Hether refer that of Sephora 126 127 The iudgmēt of the godly learned boeth aūciēt and of our tyme Coūcel of Carthage 132 Cyprian Chrysostome 130 Caluin 117 Bullinger 133 Beza 130. Infantes of boeth parents Papists owght not to be baptized 142. The second chapter of the corruptions in the sacrament of the holy supper 144. Against the receiuing by two or three with vs 144 145 146. Knowen papists not to be admitted much les comppelled to the supper 147 148. Examination of those whose knowledg in the principal points of religion is douted of is commanded in the scriptures 148 149 150. The tvuelfth Tractate page 151. The administration of the church matters vnder a Christian Magistrate doeth ordinarily and principally belong vnto the church officers because By the word of god the matters perteining vnto god are committed vnto the Priests and Leuites the matters perteining vnto the common wealth being committed to Ciuil persons 152 153 154. Nether maketh yt against this that certein Leuites handled common wealth matters 154 or that certein kinges determined of church matters 166 The church gouernours are by calling the fittest to determinyn of them 158 159. whether refer that the scripture requireth not of the ciuil magistrate that he should be able to conuince an heretik The church lawes are called the Bishops and not the Emperours decrees 155 156. Althowgh yt belong vnto the Magistrate to make lawes for a Christian common wealth yet yt foloweth not thereof that he may make lawes for the church the distinction of the church and common wealth remaining euen vnder a Christian magistrate pa. 151 152. Althowgh in confused tymes yet not in wel ordered 165 166. Yt is one thing to make lawes for the church another thing to put in execution the lawes alredy made whether deuine or ecclesiastical so that althowgh the later belōg vnto the Magistrate yet thereof foloweth not that the former doeth so 153 156 161. The danger of the Ministers erring in the determination of these matters letteth not this right of theirs 167. Nor that the papists hould some point herein with vs from whome notwithstanding euen in this cause we differ manifoldly 164 165 166 167. The learnedest and godliest boeth ould and nw confirm yt Constantine the great 157 163 Hillary 155 156 Ambrose 156 161 and other bishops of his tyme 162 Augustine 163 Bucer Caluin Beza 168 the Bishop of Salisbury 159 162 Nowel 159 euen the D. hym self 164 The thirtinth Tractate Of the indifferent ceremonyes the frute and necessitie whereof is shewed 171. The former part whereof is of the ceremonies in general The first chapter of which former part is that the church of Christ owght not to be like in ceremonies vnto the synagog of Antichrist because The Apostles conformed the Gentiles to the lwes not contrariwise 172 The lord seuered his people from prophane nations in thinges otherwise indifferent 172 Especially from those with whose corruptions in religiō they were entangled and with whome they lyued and had occasiō of conuersation in which respect yt is les danger for vs to be like in this point vnto the Turkes thē vnto the Papistes 172 173 174. The conformitye offendeth the papistes 177 namely in that they take occasion of speaking euil of our religion as if it yt could not stād withowt the ayd of their ceremonies 178 179. Also that thereby they conceyue hope of bringing in again their other corruptions whereby they hardē thē selues in their error likewise that they ascribe holynes to them 79 180. whether refer that yt is no sufficient exception that the people be warned of the abvse by preaching 177 178. Yt bringeth greif of mynde to many that are godly myneded and to the weaker sort occasion of a moste dangerous fal 180. Yt aedifieth not 180 181. The popish ceremonies haue pomp annexed 180 181. Euen as to establish the doctrine and discipline of the gospel the Antichristian must be removed so to remedy the infection crept in by the ceremonies they also owght to be removed 174. The godly and learned boeth ould and of our tyme confirm yt The councel of Laodicea of Braccara 176 177. Tertulliā 175. Constātine the great 175 176. The Bishop of Salesbury 177. Nether is the decree of any church of that autority as to binde vs that euen in the matter of ceremonies her iudgmēt should not be examined by the word of god The second Chapter Of the first part of this tractate that the churches owght to be like one to another in ceremonies pag. 142. As the churches in the Apostles times and after in the primitive church 142. As the children and seruantes of noble men goe in one liuery 142. How this may be doen 142 143. Althowgh the churches owght not to fal owt abowt yt nor men make a departure from the church for want hereof yet the church to the end she may correct yt owght to be tould of her faut in this behalf p. 143 144. The third chapter That the seruice book after a sort mainteineth an vnpreaching ministery 184. Partly throwgh the lenght of prayers 184 185. But especially in contenting yt self with a Mynister which can doe no more thē a childe of ten yeares ould 185. Or els the Bishop ys yet more gilty which maketh such Ministers withowt warrant ether of god or man ib. The fourth chapter That the frute that might be is not receiued p. 186 Throwgh the change of the place and gestures of the minister which hinder the vnderstanding of the people renw the leuitical Priesthood is vncomely ād according to M. Bucer boeth absurd and munkish page 186 187. That the order hereof is dangerously left in the Bishops discretion 187. The second part Of this Tractate of the particuler fautes in our ceremonies The first part Of the first chapter thereof is of abrogating the feastes of the Natiuitie Easter and whitsonday pa. 188. For the superstition crept into mēs myndes of them especially when they are not necessary pa. 185 the superstition also being not so wel remedied by preaching onely 189. They restrain the benefites of Christ vnto the tyme they are houlden in pa. 190. In appointing of holy dayes regard must be had not onely to the riche which may withowt their hinderance abstein from labor but vnto the poorest 192 193. The church may appoint standing tymes for the publik seruice of god and vpon extraordinary causes whole holy dayes yet not therefore ordinarily command suche feastes 191 192. As ordinarily yt can not be ordeyned that men should work the dayes which god hath commanded to rest in so ordinarily yt should not be forbidden to labor in those dayes which god hath licensed to work in 193. The elder church left the feastes free 189 198. The second part Of the first chapter against Saintes dayes pag. 194.
suffer it to haue place in civil offices is friuolous and flatly against his wordes which saith that it vuas decreed in a Councel that the Minister should onely serue the altar and the sacrifices and giue them selues to praier Your reason is as fond that the executorship is more troblesome then to bear ciuil office because sometime temporal men as yow cal them do refuse it as if therewere not which refused other ciuil offices for the same cause The reply to the next diuision the reader may take owt of the former part of my book The exception out of the Coloss that wiues must obey their husbandes in the lord doeth not hinder but that the place to the Thessa. may put a difference betvuene the ciuil and ecclesiastical gouernment For S. Paul as the Hebrews doe the preposition ◠vseth the preposition In diuersly where therefore he willeth the Thessalonians to acknovulegd those vuhich vuere set ouer them in the lord he meaneth in thinges perteining vnto the lord but when he willeth the vuiues to obey their husbandes in the lord he meaneth that they should doe it no further then is agreable vnto the wil of god not that he would restrein their obedience onely to such thinges as pertein to the kingdome of heauen as the wordes be taken in the other place In saying that althovvgh the godly Magistrate ruleth in the lord ouer vs yet that this title is giuen by excellency vnto the ecclesiastical officers I doe not daly it is the distinction of the doly Gost him self For albeit they that handle cōmon wealth matters serue the lord and doe thinges tending to his glory yet the scripture comparing boeth these gouernments togither giueth this title as a note to discern the ecclesiastical officers from the ciuil as appeareth in the Chronicles from whēce it is like the Apostle toke this maner of speach The reason whereof is for that ciuil gouernments are not so nighly nor so immediately referred vnto the glory of god as are the ecclesiastical Beside that this reproch is against M. Caluin and Beza who vpon that place of the Thessal ground the same distinction I graunt there be some thinges common to boeth the gouernmentes as be also to thinges diuers yea contrary but in cōfessing the ciuil gouernment distinguished from the ecclesiastical and yet affirming certein ciuil offices common to boeth yow speak wthout al sens For where that which should agree owght to be a third thing from the ecclesiastical and ciuil power yow make one of these two to agree to them selues And althowgh he stil rubbeth vpon this that ciuil offices such as he meaneth are not onely no hinderans but a help for the Bishop to doe his office yet he can neuer be browght to expres what those offices be For he feareth partly that the confutation wil be a great deal easier partly least if he should prik high he should draw his cause into the hatered of al if he should fallow he should not serue their appetite to whom he would peraduenture offer vnto in this cause It is in deed a good reason as the cours of this disputation doeth declare they must exercise ecclesiastical discipline therfore not ciuil they must haue the spiritual sword of corrections alwaies in their hand therfore not the ciuil oneles they can hould and beweld two swordes at once and oneles the two hāded sword of the word of god occupiyng boeth their handes they haue a third hand for the ciuil To the next I answer as vnto the seuenth diuis As for the answer which he asketh to his vntrw surmise of the Admonit abbridging the Magistrates autority seing it is so often and of no not onely cause but not so much as occasiō as a thing vnworthy once to loke bak for I quietly pas by albeit this vntruth hath and shal god willing after generally appear To that I alledged of the difficulty and multitude of duties vuhich the ministery of the vuord doeth lay vpon the Bishop of one side and of the vueaknes of mans nature of the other therby to binde the Bishop from reaching owt his hand to other functions he saith that this had had likelihood if he should exercise a function contrary to the ecclesiastical Of this sort are also these profes alledged other where that they may exercise boeth iurisdictions because they tend boeth to one end that is to the maintenance of religion reformation of manners and punishment of syn where the reader may see that the distinction which he churmeth after so painfully wil not come As if there were any lawful function be it neuer so base contrary to an other lawful function seing that good can not be contrary to good nether are there any which pertein not to the maintenance of religion And the iudgment of landes which notwithstanding he confesseth vnmeet for a Minister pertayneth to reformation of maners and punishment of syn whilest that which is his being giuen to euery one the wrong doers are punished Likewise is also the Princis office so that if he may receiu al these callinges he may ether exercise al the offices and occupations in the land or at the least moe then him self dare avouch But the prouerb shal thē be as it is already trw in thē that he vuhich embraceth much streyneth but a litle After he excepteth that by this reason a Christiā man should be cōtinually in spiritual meditation and neuer medle with worldly affaires which procedeth of a great want for aswel althowgh not so principally perteyneth it to the dutie of euery Christian to haue to doe with worldly affaires as at times conuenient to be occupied in spiritual meditation And as the reason which I browght hath not so much as the least seed of Anabaptism so the D. answer leadeth to plain monckery whilest he placeth the whole duty of a Christian man in spiritual meditation But seing yow imagin the Bishops to be men of so great burden that beside their church ministery they be able to cary the ciuil office answer me how cometh it to pas that they commit part of their own and proper office vnto Chauncelors Archdeacons c except they haue more to doe then they can doe them selues what a confusion is it to turn ouer to others thinges which they say belong properly to their office and to take offices which they confes are not incident to their calling I alledged that the Apostles of greater giftes then can be hoped for of any for accomplishment of the ministery of the vuord gaue ouer euen that vuhich they had receiued vpon them that is to say the disposition of the church money a thing merely ecclesiastical and therfore that vuhich might haue bene easelier ioyned vuith the ministery of the vuord then a ciuil office To this he answereth the Apostles did boeth those charges before and therfore that these offices may sometime meet where if he mean they
may meet now it foloweth not For althowgh they might meet before the holy gost by the mouth of the Apost made a seueral office of yt yet they might not so afterward when it was otherwise determined of by the mouth of god There were diuers kinde of mariages with consanguinitie as brother with sister aunt with nevew c lawful in the beginning ▪ which after that the lord had otherwise disposed of in the law were vnlawful As for that owt of Caluin and 2 Corinth 8 it is friuolous For it neuer perteined to the Deacons office to exhort for the contribution of the poor but was and is the Ministers of the word the Deacons office being to receiu and to distribute yt in that church where he is Deacon The causes also which he alledgeth of the casting of of that office and the busines which the Deaconship did draw in that church of Ierusalem are to trifle out the tyme considering that the decree of the Apostles towching the nue office was general for al places and not where there should be many poor or so many thowsand professors what a bouldnes is it also when the Scripture doeth plainly shew the cause of deliuering them selues from this office to haue bene that they should not leau their ministery and that they might be cōtinually vpon it to reiect this cause and to set vp another which the scripture giueth no ynkling of That they ordeined others for because they should goe into the world is also nothing worth seing that in some of them it came not to pas diuers yeates after and in other some neuer as those which were determined there to remain when as notwithstanding al desired this releas Beside that he answereth nothing to the inequality of giftes betwene our Bishops and the Apostles nor considereth not that the Spiritual charge of our Bishop is ouer moe now then there were then in Ierusalem and that they were at that tyme twelu where he is but one had theyr church togither which he hath scartered I shewed that the Papists are not onely condemned for vuringing the ciuil autority ouut of Princes handes but simply for exercising it and there fore this first section is idle To that I alledged that it is as monstrous for the Bishop to goe from the pulpit vnto the place of ciuil iudgment as for my lord Maior to goe to the pulpit he answereth that it is not vncomely to goe from the pulpit to ciuil administration of iustice c which is a mere mockery of his reader For not daring to deny but it is vncomely for the lord Maior he answereth by affirming that in question For if he say it is not vncomely for the lord Maior to goe to the pulpit he runneth in to that which he saith I surmise of him where of notwitstanding I haue not a letter Albeit the truth is that he may aswel say the Magistrate may minister the Sacrament and preach which is the proper dwety of the Minister as to say the Minister of the word may sit in iudgment of ciuil causes which is the proper dwety of the Magistrat For look what difference the lord hath set betwene the office of the ciuil Magistrate and of the Minister the same must of necessity be betwene the office of the Minister and of the Magistrate as there is the self same distance betwene Athenes and Thebes vuhich is betuuene Thebes and Athenes and if there be a mile from the top of the hil to the foot it is as far from the foot to the top And althowgh yt abhorring the eyes and eares of al he is afraid here to affirm it comely that the lord Maior should preach and minister the sacramentes yet as a man whose iudgment wasteth not by litle and litle but is sodenly and at a clap taken away he shameth not a litle after to affirm that the Prince may preach and the Bishop exercise ciuil office if they be lawfully called therunto where if by lawful calling he vnderstand a wonderful and extraordinary from heauen he speaketh altogither from the cause our question being whether a Minister by calling of the Magistrat or a Magistrate by calling of the church may enter vpon eche others office And if he mean by lawful calling the ordinary calling then his answer is absurd For he falleth into that absurdity which the Papistes doe falsly surmise that we giue vnto our Princes power to minister the Sacramentes yea by his diuinitye which giueth the chois of the Bishops to the Prince alone and which maketh it lawful for one to offer him self to the ministery the king of the land may make him self Bishop withowt waiting for the church is consent Vpon that he alledgeth owt of M. Beza which wisheth some of the nobilitie to be of the Eldership compared with that which I affirm that the Eldership is an ecclesiastical office he concludeth that ether I must dissent from M. Beza or graunt that one person may at once bear ciuil and ecclesiastical office I answer that nether is necessary For whereas Lordships Baronryes and Erldomes are often ether by birth or giuen of the Prince as bare degrees of honour such being of the church Eldership doe not therfore bear boeth ciuil and ecclesiastical office considering that they haue no magistracy necessarily ioyned with them further then the same is particularly cōmitted Albeit hauing the Heluetian confession I finde no epistle of M. Bezas so that ether he mistaketh the place or els hath some other edition then I could get Yf the gentry and nobility of the realm be as yow confes fitter to bear these offices then ecclesiastical persons there needed some great causes to haue bene shewed by yow why the fittest should not be taken otherwise the white of expedience that churchmen should bear them which yow threap of them that they see wil be so dim that boeth the Prince and they passing by it wil I hope put down as there calling serueth this vsurped power In the mean season it being so expedient a thing for the churche at yow pretend the church is litle behoulding to yow that doe not make this expedience to appear I said that if there fal a question to be decided by the vuord of god and vuherein the aduise of the Minister is needful that then his help ouught to be required The D. herevpon fathereth of me that the magistrate may determin no weighty matter withowt him as if there were no weighty matter wherein the Magistrat could know what is the wil of god withowt sending for the Minister so that it appeareth that there is no vntruth so open which finedeth not as in a cōmon Inne lodging in the D. tong But els saith he wherfore are these wordes therfore forsooth that where yow and others might vnder colour of the knowledg which he hath in the word of god hould him the stirrup to clime into the ciuil gouernmentes it might appear that
I propounded yet his iudgment is al one Here Pantaleon and M. Bale are reiected as insufficient to make report of Eugenius doeinges which was so long before their tyme and yet Erasmus is stoutly vpholden for reporting Titus to haue bene an Archbishop albeyt Titus was 600 yeares before Eugenius But if the D. can not shew any that commaunded that the Bishops should haue prisons before Eugenius these writers shal be able easely to maintayn their credit against his bouldnes of affirming and denying what so euer he listeth To that owt of Possidonius that those matters alledged of the Bishop to be doen of Augustin could not be ciuil affaires considering that he immediately opposeth them vnto secular or worldly matters beside wordes he answereth nothing he opposeth other places owt of Augustin wherof the first owt of his book of the workes of monkes can not be vnderstanded as he would haue it of any iudgment giuen by reason of ciuil autority For that which he did he affirmeth that the Apostle commaunded it should be doen by the most contemptible in the church So that oneles he dare say that the Apostle commaunded that the simplest in the church might bear ciuil office when the Magistrat being an enemy would commit no autority vnto him this place is vtterly from the purpose Again when Augustin saith that the Apostle hath tyed him so to doe and laid yt vpon him if the D. wil haue that a ciuil office is there vnderstanded it must folow that the ciuil office is incideÌ„t vnto the office of the ministery and can not be seuered from it The place owt of his epistle 110 is to as smale purpose For in that it appeareth there that the Councels decreed that Augustin should ceas from those busines it is manifest that he dealt with them not by any right of ciuil office For what had the Councel to doe to decre that he should not doe that which the Magistrate had lawfully laid vpon him he owght to haue sowght the releas of that at the Magistrates haÌ„d and not at the Councels likewise in that he obteineth of the people that these matters should be turned from him vpon Eradius and that in an ecclesiastical assembly where they met for chusing of one to succede Augustin in the Bishoprik it is manifest that it was no ciuil office Last of al it is to be obserued that in boeth these places Augustin complaineth of these matters as of hinderances vnto his Ministery as thinges which did more let the cours of yt then if he had vurovught euery day vuith his handes in some occupation that he seeketh to be deliuered from them at the Councels and at the peoples handes whereas our D. saith that they are not onely no hinderances but necessary helpes to doe the Ministery with and not onely seeketh not that the Bishops may be discharged but maketh cordes to binde these offices streighter to theÌ„ I haue reported the truth the Bishops wordes are owt of Clement that it is not lavuful for a Bishop to deal vuith boeth svuordes likewise that he ovught to be remoued that vuil supply the place boeth of a ciuil Magistrate and of an ecclesiastical person These wordes doe not onely coÌ„demn the pulling the sword owt of Princes haÌ„des but al vse of it in eccles ê‘sons I pray god that the custome of shameful denials doe not so harden your forhead that no point of truth how sharp soeuer can perce it Howbeit I trust whatsoeuer yt please yow to say it is manifest to al that doe not willinglie close their eyes against the truth that the scripture teacheth that Ministers owght not to medle with ciuil offices That which yow ad owt of Deut. 17 maketh nothing for yow for they are there biddeÌ„ to resort vnto the Priest as to the Interpreter of the law when the question was difficult and they knew not what to doe which is manifest in that he distinguisheth there the Priest from the Iudges so that in such appeales he placeth the Priests and Leuites office in teaching what is the wil of god and the Iudgis office in giuing sentence accordingly as appeareth yet more plainly in the same chapter The same is to be answered to that alledged owt of Nombers 27. In which matter that the Priest was present and called to consultation for the difficulty thereof to know what was the wil of god in that behalf it is manifest in that he being not able to resolue of the matter Moses was fayn to bring it to the lord To let pas that it was not Aharon which was taken into that consultation but Eleazar onles yow wil haue Aharon decide controuersies after his death The example of Melchisedec boeth king and Priest is more absurdly alledged then the other not onely because he was before the law when this order of separating the priesthood from the ciuil gouernment was not yet established but because he had them boeth that he might be a figure of our Sauiour Christ as the Apostle and Prophet doe declare Yow might much better haue alledged Abraham which was boeth a Priest a Prophet and a noble warrior which notwithstanding yourself doe not permit vnto the Bishop As for the appeal which Constantine graunted from the ciuil Magistrate vnto the Bishops likewise Theodostus and Carolus graunt that men might chuse the Bishops Iudges of their controuersies if either party would they were the wrestes wherwith the Princes scepters were wrung owt of their handes and as I haue before shewed owt of M. Caluin al syncerity ovut of the churches yea vpon that very graunt of Constantin it is noted in the margent that it is repugnant boeth to the doctrine and example of S. Paul. And in deed by the first of these decrees the Bishops ciuil autoritie is made equal with the Emperours And by the other it is at the pleasure of the people whether al the ciuil Magistrates shal be Idoles or no hauing the bare name of the Magistrate withowt doeing any duty For if ether of the parties be affected towardes the Bishops iudgment the Magistrates may goe lay them down to sleep Nether doeth it folow that because the Emperours gaue such liberty or licentiousnes rather vnto the church or because some Bishops vsed it that therfore the practise of the church was such For I haue shewed that the godly Counceles forbad it and that the godly fathers vtterly misliked of it And as I haue alledged some so it is not hard to alledg others to the same effect In his example of Dorotheus his translation is fauty For in steed of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth a ciuil honour he hath turned it priesthood as if it had bene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the office also which Eusebius noteth he had was to ouersee the purple dyes in Tyre an office to aduance the Ministery I think in the D. own iudgment very vnfit His examples of Philaeas and
Epiphanius serue not his turn For nether is it said whether they medled with ciuil affaires before their bishoprik or in yt and if it were considering there is no approbation of their doeing but onely a bare telling that such a thing they did it can not help him For it is one thing to say they were commended for dexterity in such matters and another to say that they did it in dutie and wel euen as if the ciuil officer taking the pulpit and speaking fitly of a text a man might giue him the commendation of dexteritie in handling the text and withal condemn him for doeing it withowt calling Hether perteineth that which he alledgeth in another place of Letoius a Bishop which burned Monasteries but by what autority appeareth not beside that his act seemeth otherwise to haue no ground For if it had any good issw it was more by hap then by good konning The like and vpon like zeal was doen by one Audas a Persian Bishop that burnt an Idoles Temple which act gaue occasion of greuous persecution whereby may appear that Bishops went some tyme beyond their limites and did thinges permitted vnto them nether of god nor man. Of our age he citeth witnesses M. Cranmer Ridly Hoper and in another place Brentius for Brentius seing he hath no reason let him haue that credit which so smale a friend of sincerity deserueth especially against the consent of so many better then he for the other he maketh it not to appear that they were of that iudgment And of M. Hooper it is manifest that he did flatly condemn it which sheweth that the Bishops for the space of 400 yeares after the Apostles althovugh they vuere more able thē ours did meddle vuith no ciuil affaires where he sharply taūteth our Bishop which meddleth with boeth offices when one is more then he is able vuith al his diligence to discharge and impossible that he should doe boeth and that if the Magistrate vuil employ a Bishop in ciuil affaires he ovught to discharge him of his Ministery Yf M. Cranmer and Ridley did exercise boeth that is to be ascribed to the tyme wherein the Sun of the gospel being but lately risen in our climate al the cloudes which popery had ouercast our land with could not be so quikly put to flight Seing therefore the Ministers office is onely in thinges that pertayn to god which for a degree of excellency that they haue in promoting our saluation more then other the holy gost opposeth vnto the Princes and common wealth affaires seing also it is of greater weight then the strongest bak can bear of wider compas then the largest handes can faddam a soldiarfare that wil be onely attended vpon seing also it tendeth to the destruction of the body when one membre encrocheth vpon the office of another and that the ciuil Magistrate may by the same right invade the office of the Minister as he the office of the ciuil Magistrate seing further our Sauiour Christ hauing the spirit withowt measure refused as a thing vnmete for his ministery the office of a Iudg seing also the Apostles indued with such glorious giftes as are not now to be looked for gaue ouer the office of the Deaconship as that which they were not with the Ministery of the word able to exercise and seing for the burden thereof it was easier then the ciuil charge which the Bishops take vpō them and for the kinde of Ministery more agreable seing also the examples in the Scripture of thē which haue born boeth the charges are ether before this order was established of god or being sithens were extraordinary last of al seing this mingling of the estates is contrary to the practise of the elder church vttered boeth in Councels and fathers contrary also to the practise and iudgment of the godly learnedest of our tyme I conclude that it is vnlawful in an established estate of the church that a Minister of the church should bear ciuil office And thus much against the Ministers which haue one foot in the church and an other in the common wealth Now to the treatise of the Eldership for the cause before assigned THAT THE CHVRCH GOVERNMENT BY AN ELDERSHIP IN Euery congregation is by the ordinance of god and perpetual Tractat 8. and 7. according to the Doctor p. 626. THat which a Tully saith of an Oratour ful of wordes that he would make owtcries to get an appetite to drink may be feared somewhat otherwise in the D. who giueth suspition that he hath forced his pen to write not to get but to quench if it might be the thirst of honour And verely if this order of Eldership had not strenght to stand by our defence yet the vertw of it might easely appear in that yt so amazeth and astonieth the aduersary as if he had bene stricken with a thunderbolt from heauen so that beside a multitude of wordes wherwith by oppressing the reader he might make some shew of answer there wil be litle found that can of right chalendg a reply Howbeit to honor him with some answer leauing his disordered handling which I noted aswel for that his defence is fond as for that this is not the place to diduct that matter let vs see what he bringeth in this cause Against that I alledged owt of the Apostle The Elders vuhich rule vuel are vuorthy dubble honor especially vuhich labor in the vuord and doctrine to proue that there were Elders which assisted the teaching Ministers onely in the gouernment of the church he answereth first that the word Elder is the same commonly with Bishop or Pastor wherein partly he confuteth him self For if it be but commonly so taken and not alwaies then it may be taken otherwise in this place His first example likewise out of Peter 1. 5. is plain against him for thereby appeareth that Peter an Apostel and no Bishop is called Elder nether is there any word in that place wherby the exhortation to the Elders should not be applied as wel to the Elders which gouerned onely as to those which labored in the word also considering that the word of feeding respecteth not onely preaching but that gouernment also which is with owt preaching in which respect boeth in scripture and otherwise the ciuil Magistrate is said to feed And it is to great an ouersight to think that because al Bishops be Elders therefore al Elders are Bishops when as the name of Elder is common vnto al which haue gouernment of the church and most properly agreeth to those which haue the gouernment onely withowt further charge of teaching And the name is taken of the vsage vnder the law where they which had onely gouernment ether in church or common wealth were so called Secondly he saith that by those that gouerned and labored not in the word are vnderstanded those which ministred the sacramentes where to let pas that which hath and shal be after
god willing shewed that the same owght to be Ministers of the word and Sacramentes I would know of him which hangeth so of the interpretation of men why he hath here departed from the iudgment of the learned and godly writers of our age and forged an interpretation which hath no approbation of any auncienty For as for that he saith of Chrysostome beside that yt is vntrw if he had neuer so smale a sound that way he would haue rong it so deep that withal he would haue turned Chrysostomes clapper But obserue how vnproperly he maketh the Apostle to speak in giuing the name of gouernment vnto that wherein there is no gouernment at al. For is yt not think yow a strong kinde of gouernment and needeth it not a great gift of discretion and iudgment to powr a litle water vpon the childes head distribute a lofe of bread cary the cup and say or read a sentence al as he is praescribed when the Apostle no where giueth this title of gouernment vnto the Deacons in whom notwithstanding is required no common discretion to know to whome and how much is to be giuen how much les would he giue it to such as haue the onely and bare administration of the Sacramentes How should also S. Paul be made to agree with him self which went the neerest way to work to ease the churches of charges if he should haue brought into yt such vnprofitable burdens as is this order of Ministers of Sacramentes which the D. imagineth especially seing a Pastor was needful in euery church who being praesent at the Sacramentes might as commodiously Minister them as be a receiuer onely His reason that the Apostle would otherwise haue said which labored in the word and Sacramentes is weak not onely because it is vsual vnto the scripture by the cheif part to note the whole but also for that the Sacramentes are conteyned vnder the word and are a visible word in which respect they are also said to haue a voice Nether doeth he here make mention of praying another of the Bishops duties so that by your answer we should haue an other order in the church of Sayers of prayers Alike vayn it is that S. Paul was not sent to baptiz but to preach when he was called to boeth althowgh rather to the one theÌ„ to the other as your self some where haue confessed As for that yow would conclude that Pastors haue no more bond to baptiz in their churches then S. Paud had yow might aswel haue concluded that al Pastors are Apostels considering that he speaketh that in respect of his Apostleship whereby he was bound to goe from place to place and not to tary as the pastor in one place The titles of Christes Vicares and of gods Prelates doe boeth agree vnto the Elders which onely gouern And althowgh nether Ambrose nor Caluin make any mention of this Eldership vpon â— Timoth. 5. 19. yet how foloweth it that they ment no such Eldership in the place which I alledged this is but a straunge conclusion M Caluins place also Institut chap. 8. sect 72 is shamefully abused for he saith that those vuhich teached vuere Elders And where as the rule of the action when the Eldership met apperteyned vnto the Ministers of the word that they chose amongest them one which gouerned the action Now in steed that M. Caluin saith that al the Ministers of the vuord vuere called Elders â—he An. maketh him to say that al the Elders of the church were Ministers of the word where Caluin in the self same chapter doeth expresly make two kinde of Elders one of those vuhich Ministred the vuord another of those vuhich vuere onely Censores of the maners of the church This Ierome is if I haue not taken my note amis a bastard and yet he hath nothing for him For in that he saith that there was and order which had the word but labored not he is as fauorable vnto this Eldership as vnto his order of sacrameÌ„t Ministers The next diuision hath nothing but that which cometh afterward to be handled Against the place that Paul and Barnabas ordeined Elders by voices in euery church first he excepteth that the plentith of preachers then was such that euery congregation where Paul and Barnabas had to doe might haue moe then one which is said withowt ether profe or likelihood the vntruth wherof may easely appear in that to the great cities where there was greatest store S. Paul was fain to send Timothy and Titus for supplies which otherwise he could so hardly spare Then he saith to ordeyn Elders throwgh euery church is to ordein one Pastor in euery one which is no plain but a figuratiue speach and that doubly boeth in that the general name of Elder is put for the particular and in that the plural number is put for the singular Therfore vnles he can work it owt with good reasons to proue that the gouerning Elders can not here be vnderstanded the simple and plain sens is to be praeferred As for the place of Titus it helpeth him not For the Apostel referring Titus to that order which he had prescribed him contenteth hym self to pursu the office of the teaching Elder vpon occasion of fals teachers which trobled the church For that owt of Caluin and Brentius it may be said that althowgh S. Luke cal them Elders which were Bishops yet he calleth them not so onely And of M. Caluin it must needes be so vnderstanded seing he auoucheth the place of Titus which the An. confesseth al one with the 14 actes for the establishment of these gouerning Elders But if the D. had read M. Nowels catechism so diligently as he would seem this would not haue bene so straunge to him For where he sheweth that the Pastor owght not to excommunicate withowt the iudgment of the church and declareth that for that purpose there were in the wel ordered churches certeyn Seniors chosen and ioyned with the Pastor he quoteth this very place which the admonition doeth And I see not why it may not be as wel referred to the Elders as to the Bishops Seing S. Luke there setteth forth how they set a ful order in the church And of that iudgment is the greek Scholiast which affirmeth that those vuhich folovued S. Paul and Barnabas vuere vuorthy to be Bishops and that they created of them Elders and Deacons also In the next diuision if the D. first answer be onely considered he might iustly complain of me but when he by and by reasoneth against the admonition for that yt would proue Seniors owt of that place of 14 Actes al see that I haue doen him no wrong To proue further that boeth Pastors and Elders which onely gouern can not be vnderstanded in that place of the Actes he assigneth this reason for that the holy gost should vse equiuocations or speak dowtfully then which there can be nothing more vnsauery For it is
Magistrate so that throwgh the nawghtines of this cause in his whole cours of answer he doeth nothing but as it were paue his way with snares to entrap him self And for answer to him this may be more then sufficient Howbeit for the readers sake althowgh this Eldership is manifest in it self of the wordes of the holy scripture yet the same shal receiue some confirmation of the practise of the churches after which kept this order boeth in persecution and peace This I wil doe if I first in a word note how this order of Eldership was taken from the gouernment of the people of god before and vnder the law yt is therfore to be obserued that so sone as there is made mention of any fixed form of church which standing of diuers houshouldes were deuided into particular assemblies so soon is made mention of this office of Elders For Moses to let the churches and assemblies of the Israelites to vnderstand hys Embassage from god assembled the Elders which that they were ecclesiastical officers thereby may appear for that vnder such a Tyrant and such oppression as the Israelites were in it is altogither vnlike that they had the benefite of Magistrates of their own And if a man would say that those Elders were the Taskmasters which Pharao had set ouer the Israelites beside diuers vnlikelihoodes thereof it is flatly confuted in that after the Israelites departure owt of Aegypt before any nue creation of officers this order of Elders is spoken of and as church officers taken to the administration of church matters Another example hereof is where Elizeus is said to haue had the Elders in his how 's to consult with what tyme the king of Israel sent a messenger to take of his head The like is said of other Prophetes which in that state they were in were vtterly vnlike to haue the ciuil gouernours to consult with Likewise in Nehemia there are mētioned certeyn which as they are distinguished from the people in that they are reckened as assistantes vnto Esra boeth on the right and left hand so be they also distinguished from the teaching Leuites in that the Prophet after he had spoken of these speaketh of that sort of Leuites which had the teaching of the people This is also strenghtned by that the nue testament speaking of the ecclesiastical officers amongest the Iues ioyneth with the Scribes which I haue shewed to note those that had the handling of the word the elders which should haue bene withowt reason if there had not bene a kinde of Elders which had not the handling of the word wherby it may appear that it is wntrue which the An. gathereth owt of Caluins wordes that these Elders should haue their beginning after the Iues return owt of the captiuity whereas he onely affirmeth that there was a bench or as some term it a Consistorye of ecclesiastical offices appointed after their rerurn but saith not as he pretendeth that they were then first of al appointed Nether can M. Caluins wordes be drawen to that sens For if by these wordes of his the Sanedrim vuere appointed after the Iues return should be vnderstood that they were then first created and not rather that they were then restored yt must folow that the Priestes and other leuitical teachers which were a portiō of that bench had then their first institution which sentence so absurd and so ful of ignorance of the state of the church no man which hath a spark of equity can ascribe vnto M. Caluin Althowgh if it were so as he pretendeth that these Elders did then begin yet that helpeth him nothing at al. For it should not haue therefore the les autority considering that it were to be estemed that they toke it not vp of their own head but by the autority of the Prophetes of god which liued then and directed the stern of that gouernment And herein howsoeuer the An. misconstrueth him M. Caluin is flat that this estate was lavuful and approued of god Hauing thus spoken of this order of Elders in the Apostles tymes and before I wil now return to that I promised of the practise of the churches after the Apostles tymes to see if this order of Elders can finde any more fauour of thē then of the Answerer Amongest which that of Tertullian before alledged of me is most clear Nether can the D. escape with this that the colledg was likely to be of Ministers of the word c. considering that it is vncredible that al the churches whose defence Tertullian taketh vpon him and whose vsage he describeth had such a colledg Then that of Cyprian commeth to be considered which noteth a peece of the office of these Elders by deuiding the communion bread into equal portions and carying it for the assistance of the Bishop in litle baskets or trayes where by placing their office in this assisting the Minister he doeth manifestly shut them owt from the ministring of the Sacrament especially seing Cyprian in that place noteth the honor of that office to consist in that they had by reason of it acces to this assistance of the Pastor in so great mysteries which should haue bene fondly put if they might also by vertue of that office them selues haue ministred the Sacramentes as wel as the Bishop whereof also it cometh that in another place he calleth them brethren vuhich had care of the basket But towching the vse of the Affricane churches vntil Augustins tyme that one testimony is more then sufficient wherby is affirmed that Valerius Bishop of Hippo did contrary to the custome of the Africane church in that he committed the office of teaching vnto Augustin which was an Elder of that church and that he was checked therfore of the Bishops checked I say nothwithstanding that Valerius is there declared to haue doen it for support of his infirmity because him self was not so apt to preach And howsoeuer Possidonius alow of Valerius fact yet boeth the cōtinuance of that order by the space of 400 yeares and the iudgmēt of other Bishops round abowt is withowt comparison of more weight especially when it appeareth by Possidonius writinges that being a good simple man he was nether of great learning nor deep iudgment where also it is to be obserued that as the discipline was best kept in those churches of Afrik so the doctrine remayned purest in them As may appear not onely by the Councels of Carthage compared with other councels of that tyme but also by Augustins writinges compared with Ieromes and other Doctors boeth greek and latin in the same age In other churches where this discipline was not so diligently looked vnto there are notwithstanding markes wherby we may know that they went owt of the way As at Alexandria where althowgh the Elders did teach yet after Arrius was convicted of heresie it was decreed that the Elders should no more teach by which
decree they did as it were couertly confes that they had receiued the reward of breaking the order of god in permitting that the Elder should teache in the church For if it had bene of the institution of an Elder to preach Nether Arrius nor ten thowsand moe suche heretik Elders owght to haue giuen cause of such a decree seing the institution of the lord owght not to be broken for any abuse of men Ierome I graunt somewhere doeth reprehend this and some learned of our tyme after him haue estemed the decree of Alexandria fauty herein But that being considered which I haue alledged there is no cause to condemn that decree whether it were of the Nicen councel or of Athanasius and the Eldership of Alexandria And what if Ierome him self althowgh an Elder of Rome giue testimony vnto this cause that is to say that yt belongeth not vnto an Elder of the church to minister the word or Sacramentes Let his wordes be weighed wherby he confesseth playnly that nether Elder nor Deacon had right but vpon the Bishops commandement so much as to baptiz vuhich notvuithstanding saith he is licenced euen to laymen in tyme of necessity Vnhereunto also refer that which Tertullian writeth that it belonged vnto the Bishop onely to baptiz and that the Elder and Deacon could not baptiz but vpon the Bishops licence Now if the Elders had no right to preach c. by reason of their office or as incident into yt if the Bishop onely had right and the other but by indulgence or commandement thus far we haue boeth Tertul. and Ierome agreeing with vs that by the word of god and his institution the Elder hath not to doe with the word and Sacramentes And the same autors we haue also flatly contrary to the D. which houldeth as appeareth by the discours of his book that al Elders and Deacons of the church althowgh not in gouernment yet towching the ministery of the word and sacramentes are equal and haue as much autority as the Bishop him self This difference onely remaineth betwene Ierome and vs whether this being not of gods institution that an Elder may preach or Minister the sacramentes it be lawful for any man to giue licence therof which bouldnes of remouing and changing the boundes which the lord in the tarriers of his word hath limited boeth is before and shal afterward god willing be further handled Last of al for proof of these church Elders which being occupied in the gouernment had nothing to doe with the word the testimonie of Ambrose alledged in my former book is so clear and open that he which doeth not giue place vnto yt must needes be thowght as a bat or an owl or some other night bird to delight in darknes His saying is that the Elders fel avuay by the ambition of the Doctors where by opposing the Elders to Doctors which tawght he plainely declareth that they had not to doe with the word whervpon it is manifest that boeth yt was the vse in the best reformed churches certein hundreth yeares after the tymes of the Apostles to haue an Eldership which medled not with the word nor administration of Sacramentes and that they which wanted it partly complayned of the want partly declining from this institution of god corrected their error at the least they kept this difference that whereas the Bishop preached and ministred the Sacramentes in right of his office the Elder did it not as a thing incident to his office but onely vpon indulgence of the Bishop Another point wherin the D. turneth his tong is that where he confessed before that there was in euery church Seniors now he saith in some onely And to salue this contradiction with him self he saith by euery church he ment euery cheif city Thus yow speak but by what rule and according to whose language when yow expound euery church euery cheif citie as if their were no churches but in cheif cityes But thus must al their tonges be deuided which put them forth against the truth Howbeit to come to that point by what reason can yow shew that the Apostles instituted a seueral Ministery for cheif cities which they did not for vplandish townes what were this but to bring in an inequality amongest the churches which your self otherwhere confes owght not to be Yt is I graunt meet for the furtherance of the gospel that the cheifest cityes when al can not be serued should haue the first the sufficientest and according to their need the greater numbre but that they should haue a seueral Ministery ordeyned for them into the felowship whereof the smaler churches may not be admitted is withowt reason Secondly the gospel which conteyneth the doctrine and discipline went not owt of Ierusalē into the cheif cityes onely but into al the world Thirdly it hath bene shewed that the epistle of S. Paul to Timothy wherein mention is made of the interteinment of these Elders was not a rule prescribed to churches in great cities onely but vnto al churches wherosoeuer Further seing the Elders are continually ioyned with the Bishop it being shewed that the lord ordeyned for euery congregation a Bishop it must folow that he ordeyned for euery congregation Elders finally for as much as the Apostles labored to bring the churches one with another to an vniformity euē in the smalest ceremonies how can they be thowght to haue made so vneuen work in the Ministery of the church I let pas here the place in the Actes before handled where it is said that Elders vuere ordeyned in euery church Likewise the necessity of them aswel in other churches as in churches in the citie which is after to be handled Onely I wil note what hath bene the practise of the churches in this point wherby may appear how the auncient fathers haue vnderstood this order That Ignatius which the An. wil haue S. Iohns scholer affirmeth that there is no church vuhich can stand vuithovut her Eldership or Counsail This is manifest also by the Apologie of Tertullian wherin he defending the gouernmēt of al the churches not of those onely in cityes and shewing for that cause the order obserued in them maketh precise mention of this Senate of Elders as hath bene before alledged The testimony of M. Bucer is also manifest in this point as it is alledged of me before Likewise of M. Martyr who affirming that certeyn of the people vuere ioyned vuith the Pastor in the gouernment of the church assigneth the cause for that the Pastor could not doe al him self thereby giuing to vnderstand that the Eldership was as general as the Pastor For he doeth not say where the Pastor could not doe al there he had assistance of an Eldership but because the Pastor could not doe al c. The onely reason which the An. hath against this is that there was not an Eldership amongest the Iues in euery of their synaguoges But as
his wont is he doeth onely say so proof he bringeth none And as I for my part confes that there cometh not to my minde wherby I could precisely conclude yt owt of the ould Testament So I am assured that he is not able to proue that which he saith But that which the D. affirmeth otherwhere that it was onely at Ierusalem is vtterly vntrue For Iosaphat at one tyme set in Iudges in euery vualled citye throvughovut the kingdome of Iuda which of what sort they were namely in part ciuil in part ecclesiastical appeareth by the Iudges placed in Ierusalē And to thē men had recours to in matters of greater difficulty according to the causes if ciuil to the ciuil if ecclesiastical to the ecclesiastical iudgment where owght not to be forgotten the nūbre of cities in one onely tribe as it might be in york sheer to the numbre of a hūdreth and twelue least that the reader should measure the numbre of their cityes with ours So that where the Answ saith that therewas but one Senate in al the twelue tribes it is found that there were in one onely tribe at the least a hundreth ant twelue ecclesiastical Elderships Vuhether it may be cōcluded owt of the nue Testament that euery synagog of the Iues had this Eldership considering that the pollicy of the church now was in this point taken from the Iues church I leau it to the reader to iudg of that which I haue alledged wherevnto aideth the custome of the Iues vnto this day which in euery of their synaguogues haue their Elders Likewise Ieromes testimony of which it may be certeinly collected that he estemed that the Iues had their Elders in euery Synagog For he sheweth that they chose of the vuisest in their cōpany for gouernours vuhich should asvuel admonish those that had any corporal polution to absteyn from the assemblies as to reproue the breakers of the ceremonies of the Sabbat now seing ther was the same vse of these admonitions and reproofes as wel in vplandish synaguoges as in those which were plāted in the cities it foloweth necessarily that there were Elders aswel for them as for the other At the least the nue Testamēt in marking these Elders which it calleth cheif of the Synagog in diuers quarters doeth manifestly ouerthrow the D. which saith that they were onely at Ierusalē vpō al which matter appeareth how extremely bould yow are in your affirmatiōs which beside these two before mētioned say also that the Eldership was not alwaies no not in persecution wherein not to enter a nue field for euery light word yow cast forth what reason I pray yow cā yow assign why sometimes there should be an Eldership vnder pecsecutiō and other some tymes none cōsidering that yow imagin this Eldership to be in place of a Christian Magistrate whereby it must needes folow that his seat being void in tyme of persecution it owght to be occupied by the Eldership which yow fancy to be his Lieftenāt whether the D. pincheth the churches where with a Christian Magistrate the Eldership stil remayneth which he here denieth let the reader iudg of his former book where he affirmeth yt iniurious to the Magistrat and ful of confusion also that it can not nor owght not to be as in the Apostles tymes c. ▪ yea let hym iudg of this diuision For after that he graunteth to Princes to commit their autority to the church if they list then which there is nothing more vntrw he addeth whether it be wel doen I wil not determin wherein I besech yow mark first what contraries he speaketh For he doeth determin precisely that ciuil Magistrates may commit their right and autority to these Elders if they wil and yet he wil not determin whether it be wel doen or no. wheras if he would not haue determined of the one he should haue suspended his iudgment of the other for thus he assureth them they may doe that whereof he wil make them no assurance that it is wel doen. Secondly it is to be obserued that where the question was of the Bishops receiuing of ciuil autority from the Prince he maketh it not onely lawful but conuenient yea necessary that it should be deriued from the Prince to the Bishop but here towardes the Eldership he saith yt can not be practised withowt intollerable contentions and extreme confusion So that the Bishop Archdeacons and Deanes which with vs are the deepest churchministers may exercise yf the Prince wil commit yt vnto them euen the highest ciuil iurisdiction and that to the singular advancement of the church but these Elders whose office in the church is not such but that boeth they haue and may folow some ciuil trade of lyfe may not receiue that power of the Magistrate which he vntrwly affirmeth that they had in tyme of persecution on les al by and by fal vpon heapes In one and the same church the Bishop the Dean the Archdeacon and for a need some of the Prebendaryes may haue beside their ecclesiastical iurisdiction ciuil autority but these Elders althowgh they were but two in numbre may in no wise vse any This difference verely riseth not in the breadth of shoulders wherby they are able to cary al this and the Elders none but vpon the widenes of the throat which as the graue is neuer filled Thirdly it is to be obserued that the D. which for his own profit stretcheth the power of the Prince beyond al boundes here as yf he had to doe with a cheuerel scepter draweth it in For he giueth more liberty herein vnto the Magistrates of smal common wealthes then vnto monarches For to them he seemeth sometime to leau yt at liberty whether they wil communicate their autority vnto these Elders or retayn it with them selues but vnto kinges and Princes he wil in no wise permit yt Vuherein also he is contrary to him self which in another place saith that the office of the ciuil Magistrate may be committed vnto whome soeuer it pleaseth hym best to like of If that be true and this iurisdiction of the Elders were as he vntruly saith belonging to the ciuil Magistrate why might not the Prince commit yt vnto these Elders as for his reason that so euery parish should be a kingdome yt cometh to be answered in another place To that I alledged of the necessity of the Eldership because the Pastor can not haue his ey in euery corner of his parish c. he answereth an able Pastor is able to doe al required of a Pastor which is no answer at al. For that is not the question but this whether he be able to doe whatsoeuer church gouernment belongeth to the wealth of his church which because he durst not affirm or affirming it had nothing to proue yt he slipped away after this sort And now that he vnderstandeth that this reason is confirmed by M. Peter Martyr I trust hereafter he
wil giue it some honester name then my fancy To that I alledged that if the Auncientes should not be vnder a Christian Magistrate yt vuould folovu that the lord should haue les care of his church vnder a Christian then vnder an vnchristian Magistrate he answereth that the Christian Magistrate is in place of the Eldership but nether addeth reason him self nor once towcheth the reason which I browght namely that yt vuas neuer lavuful for the church in persecution to appoint any that should enter vpon any part of the ciuil Magistrates office This also could not be a sufficient recompence in matters pertayning to the soul health that for an Eldership in euery church they should receiue one Prince in a whole countrey For one Prince can not in the spiritual gouernment of the realm bring that to pas which the Eldership in euery church did before althowgh he should doe nothing but attend vpon that So that to make the Magistrates to succede into the office of the Elders and therein to doe al the duties appointed vnto the Eldership in tymes past is to charge the Magistrates with a thing vnpossible and such as must needes kyl their consciences Thus where the Christian magistrate is giuen of god to kepe the order which god hath set in his church yow bring him in as a breaker and changer of the order which god hath appointed by his holy Apostles But the godly Christian Magistrates may vnderstand that as nether our Sauior Christ nor any wise and wel instructed mynistery vnder him wil meddle with any order or form of common wealth lawfully instituted of them for the better gouernment of their people but leau them as they finde them So they owght to leau whole and vntowched that order which Christ hath placed in his church And as the An. saith truly otherwhere that Christ came not to ouerthrow ciuil gouernmentes euen so it is as true that god sendeth not kinges to ouerthrow church gouernment planted by Christ and his Apostles Yea so much more absurd is this later then the first by how much they owght to haue more firmity which were set by the lord him self then which were by men For what son of Adam shal presume to alter that order which the lord hym self from heauen hath set And euen so doeth the Apostle precisely speak of this office with others that god hath set it in the church Yf it be said that he set also Prophetes and workers of miracles which are now no more it is true they are now no more but why are they not Ys it because any man hath remoued them no verely but because the lord him self hath withdrawen them For if the lord had giuen euen vnto these dayes these giftes of healing and working of miracles c. I think there is no man so extremely impudent that would say that the ciuile Magistrate might abolish or put them down Beside that it is vntrue which he saith otherwhere that this office is placed amongest those which be temporal for euen that next before yt noteth the office of the Deacon which is perpetual As for that he crieth owt and so oft repeateth that by this meanes no more is giuen to the Christian Magistrate then to the Turk proceedeth onely of a famyn of reasons to answer which driueth him to this vnrulynes otherwise he can not tel how the establishment of this office should spoil the Prince of her autority S. Paul professeth of him self that he vurote the same that men red that is to say syncerely not pretending one thing and meaning another but al this ialousy pretended for the Prince against the Eldership is in deed for the Bishop So that albeit the name of the Magistrate be houlden owt to draw this cause into hatered yet the truth is that yt is to establish their own tyranny For as towching autority or preheminence there is nothing giuen to be doen by the Eldership ioyntly with the Pastor in one onely congregation al which and more to the Bishop him self alone doeth not vndertake to execute in a whole diocese or prouince Therfore if the exercise of this spiritual iurisdiction in the Eldership spoil the Magistrate of his autority then the Bishops are the chief in this robbery Vuhere he asketh how I shew owt of the scripture that those are the duties of the Elders which I haue assigned I answer that forasmuch as S. Paul appointeth them gouernours of the church togither with the teaching gouernours placing the difference onely in teaching and consequently in publik prayer and administration of sacramentes which are ioyned with yt or comprehended vnder yt that therfore the rest remain commō betwene them to be doen as wel of these as of them That the place of S. Mathew is not to be vnderstanded onely of priuate offences I haue before declared your interpretation of tel the church that is publikly reproue those which admonished priuately repent not is euil nurtured breaking in withowt leau where mark good reader how easy it is for the D. to write answers which being pressed giueth him self this liberty that hauing no key to open the dore breaketh it open after this sort To interpret tel by reproue might haue some colour by that the general is some tyme put for the special but that tel the church should be reproue the offender hath a disease that al the tropes and figures which I haue red of are not able to cure And me thincketh that yow which accuse others for making the scripture a nose of wax if yow wil not put of your shoes at the least yow should wipe them a litle cleaner when yow enter into the lords Sanctuary That which foloweth is not a whit better For after he saith that by the church may be ment one onely so that he be in autority which is not vnlike vnto that which the papistes say that a man may appeal from the Councel vnto the Pope wherof some of the papistes them selues if he doe not repent shal sit in iudgment which leauing vnto the Pope the highest place in the church haue notwithstanding vpon this place preferred the iudgment of the Councel to the Popes But where I require some example of this monstruous speach vuherby one is said to be many one membre a body one alone a company the D. is domb where I shew further that if one onely should be vnderstood by the church that then the going from thre to one should not rise but fal not goe forvuard but bakvuard he answereth that to tel one which hath autority to correct the faut is more then to tel twenty as thowgh the complaint is made to the end he should be corrected and not that he should be admonished For as for correction other then by wordes it owght not to be awarded onles he refuse to hear the church so that here stil the proces is from the admonition which is by many to that
can doe any thing in the gouernment of the church but the Pastor alone he must needes confes that that wchich may be owght to be for support of the Pastor his other answer is before confuted Secondly yt was alledged that S. Paul so loeth to lay any vnnecessary charge vpon the church yet enioyned this ministery vnto the poor and persecuted churches The strēght of which reason lyeth in this that some contributiō vuas necessary to their mayntenance then vuhere as novu in tyme of peace this ministery may be vuithovut al charges vnto the church To thys in sted of answer he frameth other argumentes of his own wherewith he dalieth skowreth vp his ould stuf of widowes and the ciuil Magistrate before answered alledgeth the pouerty of some parishes the vnwillingnes of other some to contribute which is a meer trifling For seing the pouerty of the churches could not exempt them from this charge when they were much poorer as appeareth by S. Paul seing also yt may be now withowt the charge of the church as appeareth by the practise of the churches which are so gouerned in these dayes where there is not a penny alowed to any Elder ether he owght to confute this or blush to set down that for answer yet he is not afraid after to put yt for a reason against the Eldership whervnto may be added that the churches in persecution nether those now nor other in tymes past could haue such helpes of howses or landes appropriated to the fineding of their ministery as the churches with vs but were driuen to pay for al of their own purs And not that onely but cōstreyned to pay their tythes or other exactions to the Idolatrous priesthood of that place where they abode which we are freed from vnder a Christian Magistrate To the third reason that the declyning of a popular rule or that of the best hath not so easy redres vnder a Tyrant as vnder a Christian magistrate he saith men in persecution are not desirous of honor c. which in a maner is as much to say as men in persecution ceas to be men and is vntrue as appeareth boeth in the Apostles tymes and after as I haue shewed Secondly he answereth that the gouernours thē were but during the pleasure of such as ppointed them wherof he bringeth no profe at al and is likewise vntrue considering that they were chosen to remayn so long in their office as they behaued them selues vnblamably or at the least vntil a certeyn term before which they could not by any equity but vpon their faut or their own desire be put owt In the first of which two cases they are somewhere now as they were then and in the later they may if it seme expedient euen now as wel as then so that here is no difference at al betwene those and these tymes Nether doeth he consider that the gouernours being corrupt the greatest part of the church is commonly led away with them In which case the church is withowt remedy vnder persecution when notwithstanding she hath an easy remedy vnder a Christian Magistrate Thirdly he saith that this graunted the argument foloweth not reason he sheweth none but open askinges of that in question And whether it folow wel that for so much as there ys les inconuenience in the gouernment of the Eldership vnder a Christian magistrate then vnder a Tyrant therfore it may be better vnder hym then vnder a Tyrāt let al the world iudg his owtcourses as also his open vntruth that I confes the church gouernment to be a monarchy I pas by I onely said that it is a monarchy in respect of our Sau. Christ which is nothing to that purpose he alledgeth yt for In the fourth that the Elders could not then meet vuithovut danger vuhich they may doe novu and therfore that the gouernment by one onely as of the Bishop had bene if euer then most conuenient he answereth that it was not so dangerous which is contrary to al reason and experience Then he saith the church must be subiect to the ciuil magistrate whereby as appeareth boeth in this diuision and in the next he meaneth nothing els but that yt owght to allow of that church gouernment which the Magistrate wil appoint althowgh yt be diuers from the Apostles which is a fat begging of that in question his first and third answers also towch not the cause at al. Vuhere against his distinction that this gouernment of Elders may be in a Cytie but not in a Realm I alledged that it hath had place by his ovun confession in a vuhole Realm he saith that that is true where euery church is as yt were within yt self a common wealth as in Fraunce and other persecuted churches wherein he doeth shameful iniury to al those churches of god and to the Apostles them selues which vsed that order in ascribing vnto them as thowgh they made new common wealthes or liued not vnder the same form of ciuil gouernment were not obedient vnto the same ciuil lawes and to the same Magistrates which the Idolatres them selues were what one ether action or property can yow assign in an Eldership vnder a kingdome which should cause this rent that there should be so many common wealthes and so many kingdomes as there are Elderships why also doeth this Eldership make a greater rent in a monarchy where one gouerneth then in a common wealth where many gouern If yow think therfore because a monarchy is greater then a common wealth wherby there must be moe Elderships in the one then in the other beside that the argument is nawght that also wherevpon it is grounded is vntrue For there are common wealthes where many rule greater then the monarchies where one onely gouerneth as Rome in tymes past Venys within our remembrāce and such like Vuhere I alledged also that by his reason a monarchy should not be good in the common vuealth because the gouernment of one is good in a hovushould c. He answereth that the autority of the Master of the howshould derogateth not from the Princes but the Eldership doeth which is his accustomed beggery where in deed the autority of a Master of a howshould approcheth nerer vnto the kinde of gouernment of the Magistrate as that which hath corporal punishment annexed vnto yt then the autority of the Eldership which meddleth not that way And because I am entred into that example I would know of hym which wil haue other gouernmentes fashioned to the form of gouernment of the common wealth whether in a common wealth where many haue equal autority the magistrate may ordeyn that the father of the houshould shal not rule his own how 's alone or be cheif in yt but shal haue his wife of like autority or some of his seruantes quarter Master If he be ashamed of this then he seeth that the wal of al his defence against the discipline of the
answered and another of M. Beza which in that sens he pretendeth them are quite contrary one to another yt is therfore meruail if he can make of them one vniform and euen answer Now he hath ranged and roued almost in this whole disputation he must haue leau to run bak the way he came to see whether he hath let any of his peeces fal And first good reader he dasheth the in the face with two open vntruthes in the forehead of this chapter For the order of the church propounded by vs is vniform and standing as it is left vs in the word of god and not as he surmiseth varying according to the numbre of the churches Also for ceremonies variable by circunstance it is frankly confessed that they owght to be determyned of by aduise of the church Synod assembled especially of the flower and most sufficient of the ecclestical gouernours sent by consent of the rest if al as yt happeneth can not be coueniently there Secondly it is nether affirmed nor euer practised in any church where this order is or hath bene vsed that he that is chosen may not refuse yt So that if there be any that thinketh his honour stayned in being ioyned in counsail of church matters with poor men when there ether are not or are not enow of others he hath not to complain seing he is at his choise Albeit if any man should be so myneded to think skorn to hear the sentence of a poor man in that he is a poor mā let the same know that he reprocheth god that made hym poor And if he be lawfully appointed to this office thē he doeth not disdain the man but Christ hym self Therfore if he haue any fear of god before his eyes he wil from hence forth be ashamed to vse this for a reason Beside that he thus ouerthroweth the high court of Parliament where with the nobility are ioyned in consultation the commons of the Realm where also the estates being vnequal the voices notwithstanding are equal I omit how that if there were any inconuenience in this that the sentence of the Pastor and other not so rich or so noble should weigh down the sentence of that noble man he speaketh of yet him self hath deliuered vs of yt which telleth vs that the lord of the town or some other of countenance wil lead away the rest of the church how much more then shal he be able to lead away two or thre Thus he plaieth on boeth handes for there he pincheth at the nobility and here he pretendeth as if he were tender ouer their honour His third reason is answered before likewise his fourth his fift his sixt and a seuēth As for the eight of partial affectiō and contentions which would ensue it is plentifully answered in the question of the church election For if these be friuolous reasons against those ecclehastical actions where the whole church hath interest much more are they against the assemblies of thre or fower onely and those of the choisest the ninth is also answered The tenth that it would be to great extremity to punish for one faut twise is a fals principle taken from the Pelagian herefy For the Magistrate may appoint fower kinde of punishmētes for one faut if he think good to be executed at diuers tymes so that they altogither and ioyntly exceed not the quantity of the faut And by his reason the Magistrate shal be shut owt from his right of punishyng syn if it fal owt that the lord by some punishment laid vpon the offender preuent the Magistrates punishment especially when the punishment is in such sort that it may appear that yt was sent for that special faut for examples sake if of dronkennes he fal into some siknes na thus the lordes sword is wrung owt of his hand For nether may he punish those fautes which the Magistrate punished before and if he punish a man in this life he hath bound his handes for punishing him in the world to come For in deed the church discipline is the punishment or rather the correction of the lord in a far other kinde and to an other end then the ciuil punishment But I haue shewed that boeth these were practised amongest the people of god for one and the same faut And is not this in the Apostles to condemn the holy gost him self For if it be true which he saith when one had stollen or committed adultery it had not bene lawful for them to haue vsed the ecclesiastical censure least the offender being after apprehended and punished according to the lawes of the common wealth where he liued should thereby haue bene wronged Beside that the D. accuseth al our Bishops which for diuers causes punishable by the lawes of the Realm send forth their excommunications yea al the elder churches which did not leau to proceed in ecclesiastical censures against those whom the heathen Princes had iustly punished But hereof the reader may know further in M. Caluins institutions also in M. Bucer who praecisely cōfuteth them which say that the punishment by the ciuil Magistrate is sufficient His eleuenth that alterations are dangerous is vnworthy answer For when yt hath bene shewed that ceremonies otherwise in different owght when they breed offence to be changed how much more owght those to be chāged which are shewed to be cōtrary to the institutiō of god And nether this nor the next clause in thys eleuēth article nor diuers other allegatiōs in this chapter haue so much as a countenāce of reason vnles it be first graunted vnto the D. which is the principal questiō that is to fay that the Eldership of the church is not cōmaunded of the lord his two other reasons in this article are boeth often repeated and vtterly vntrue there hauing bene neuer any Christiā Prince that vsed the spiritual sword which onely is giuē to the Eldership nether any noble mā or gentilmā which in our lād vseth this kinde of correction but onely the Bishop which vsurpeth yt and abuseth yt I omit his often iesting at the Pastor by calling him diuers tymes in contempt Master Pastor which the Angels them selues dare not doe when as him self can not deny but to haue a Pastor in euery cōgregation is the ordinance of god If men wil not look to such disorders I dowt not but the lord wil lay to his hand The first reason to proue no certeyn kinde of church gouernmēt apointed is answered before likewise the second and third the fourth is a gros asking of that in question In the fift M. Caluins and M. Bezas first and last sentences are violently drawen from their meaning as hath bene shewed The middle sentence beareth no such argument as he would gather for there is no word that shutteth owt the necessity of the Eldership vnder a Christian Magistrate no or that maketh it so much
as les necessary vnder a Christian Magistrate then vnder persecution For the word especially is restrayned vnto the gouernment which the Bishop had ouer the Elders so that if there be any thing to be gathered of that it is this that the Bishop should not haue so much preheminence ouer the Eldership when ther is a Christian Magistrate as when there was not And how doeth not he blush to alledg mens sentences directly contrary to their iudgmentes playnly declared in this matter of the Eldership which counteth yt such a faut to set one writer against another I omit other places owt of M. Beza where this cause is confirmed boeth generally in the vnuariable gouernment of the church and particularly in this case of the Eldership The reasons alledged of M. Musculus and Gualter haue bene answered His sixt reason of giuing no more here to the Christian Magistrate then to Nero is but onely said the vntruth wherof shal appear in place Seing therefore the lord hym self hath once set this gouernment by Elders in the church and that no man may displace which he hath placed seing yt is a supply of that in the church which the most sufficient and most diligent ministery of the word is not able to perform by yt self alone seing the churches vnder the law and in the Apostles tymes could not want this help and seing the antiquity which folowed for diuers hundred yeares partly held the same partly lamented the want of yt and partly left markes and footinges whereby being lost yt might be recouered again seing further the liberality of god towardes the church is commended in that for the greater safety of yt he would haue many watchmen of one church Lastly seing the Apostel in the person of Timothe chargeth most straitly al the Ministers of the word with the keping of this order vntil the appearing of our Sa. Christ let vs conclude that the Eldership ordeined for the gouernment of the church onely is the perpetual and vnchangable decree of god and therefore not onely in comon wealthes where many but also in Monarchies where one gouerneth not onely in time of perseqution but also in time of peace to be reteyned Again forsomuch as the Apostel ordeined thes Elders church by church forasmuch as giuing a rule of the gouernment of al aswel of churches in the countrey as in the City he inioyned the praeseruation of this order forasmuch also as the gospel whereof this is a part brake forth owt of Ierusalem into al places not into cities onely and for that the Pastor of an vplandish town is no more able to doe al that is to be doen in his church then the Pastors in the city considering also that the churches as dawghters and coheirs of one father and mother owght to enioy like priuileges seing further the Bishop to whome this Eldership is assistant hath bene shewed to belong aswel to churches in the country as in the city finally forasmuch as the vse boeth of he churches vnder the law and of those after the Apostels tymes lead vs hereūto yt is likewise browght to pas that this Eldership owght to be in al churches not in those onely which are planted in great cities Thus is also ended the question of Cathedral churches whereof the D. hath made a whole tractate wherein there appeareth scarce a step of this institution of god of which when he would brag of and set the highest price he hath valued twelue of the best of them at no more then one poor halin Cambridg or Oxford is able to yeeld yea then they were at Queen Maries tyme when there vuere commonly in euery one some vuhich dissembling for fear vuere not vuithstanding able to confute al Papistes Anabaptistes whereunto he can answer nothing That the offices came from the bottomles pit of hel may partly appear by that which I haue alledged partly in that the names of Prebendaries c. are not to be found in any godly or pure writer but in the dregges of the canon law For further vnderstanding of which disorders I refer the reader to that which M. Caluin writeth of them who peinteth them owt in their colours And where I shewed that to look for any good vnto the church in the Popes inuention is to look to be fed vuith the Cockatrice egges and to be clad vuith the spiders vueb he answereth that the Pope as the Ethnickes may make good lawes which is vntrue in matters belonging to the church especially in so great a matter as the appointing of an office I wil not denie but they may deuise good lawes for the commodity of this life but yt can not be shewed that euer the lordes people fetched their lawes to gouern the church by from the heathen much les from the Pope which is the head of the heathen Therefore al may see what a singuler profit boeth the church and common wealth should haue if they were conuerted into Colledges for the bringing vp of scholers which they would yeeld as I think in greater numbre then boeth the vniuersities doe now with furniture of professions in al good knowledg where now they serue but for the fatting vp of a few and those ether vnworthy to be norished of the Almes of the church or els whose presence is necessary in other places and dutiful by reason of pastoral residence wherein as wel against theirs as against our vniuersitie mens non residence I refer the reader to the special tractate thereof That they should serue for rewardes to those which haue spent much tyme in getting learning is but to fome at the mouth that which is a shame once to conceiue in the minde considering that by reward he vnderstandeth not the honest and sufficient prouision for his competent how should and conuenient hospitality for the poor which is confessed most due but meaneth some surplice beside this which is before cōfuted Nether is any good to be hoped from them whome the excellency of this office before Angels and men doeth not content to whom the fruit which they shal receiue dayly in that by their ministery god is glorified and men are saued doeth not satisfy finally to whom the special crown of glory which remayneth thē in the lyfe to come with sufficient prouision for this present lyfe doeth not make the ministery sauory vnles it be also sauced with these inticementes of wordly wealth and dignity So that this is rather a lure to draw hyrelinges into the church then an honest prouocation to cal in faithful Pastors Hereunto commeth the example of other churches which haue pulled them down and conuerted them to other vses which the D. partly denieth partly maketh no great account of That they were pulled down the experience teacheth at the least of as many as I haue ether seen or could vnderstand of And yt is namely recorded of the church of Zurik yea of al of them M. Caluin teacheth that
the prebendes c. ovught to be called to a more lavuful vse namely to the fineding of Scholers Ministers and Poor And this is our meaning not that these goodes should be turned from the possession of the church to the filling of the bottomles sackes of their gredy appetites which yane after this pray and would therby to their perpetual shame purchase them selues a field of blud which thing althowgh we haue giuen playnly to vnderstand yet because we haue to doe with so importunat an aduersary that feareth not to charge vs with intent to gratifye such Cormorantes I thowght good in a word to protest yt As for the light account he maketh of those examples of the reformed churches which notwithstanding pretendeth to esteme so greatly of one or two of the auncient writers I leau to vtter what yt argueth oneles he were able to shew by the word of god that they did not wel The rest of this tractate which is a cartlode of vntruthes vttered partly in accusing me partly in maynteyning him self I wil not touch THAT EXCOMMVNICATION BELONGETH NOT TO THE Bishop alone Tractate ix and xviij according to the D. pag. 661. YT hauing bene shewed that in elections and depositions the Bishop can doe nothing withowt the aduise of the whole church nor in the common gouernmēt withowt assistance of the Eldership yt must folow that in excommunication which is one of the weightiest iudgmentes in the church this sole autoritie of the Bishop is vnlawful For as when in ciuil matters the iudgment is of life and death and as in the art of curing when consultation is taken of cutting or burning the bench is fuller and the assistance greater then when matters of les importance be debated euen so if it might be accorded to the Bishop to pas some other matters by him self yet it were not safe to cōmit vnto him the iudgment of excommunication wherevpon I mervail why euen here also yow goe abowt to pek owt our eys For the light of this truth is such that some of the Papistes them selues are ashamed to look against yt as appeareth by Pigghius which seeking al maner of peintynges to hyde the filthines of Rome could finde no colour to disguise this with but is fayn partly to confes her nakednes in this behalf saiyng that it is not lavuful the Bishop of Rome onely excepted for any Bishop to excommunicate by him self alone So that althowgh the weightines of the cause might require a long treatis yet the plaines of it wil be content with a short First whether the word discipline may note the vuhole gouernment or onely the punishmentes as in a disputation of wwordes I wil not striue althowgh it be knowen that the word discipline is vsed in good autors for the whole maner of gouernment ether at home or in war. Secondly charged vuith cōtrarietie he answereth that to ascribe excommunicatiō to the Minister of the word and to the Bishop onely agree because the Bishop is a Minister of the word which might haue bene admitted if it had bene al one to be a Bishop and a Minister of the word But seing by the word Minister with vs is noted a diuers degree and meinteined by him it is but an escape Howbeit I am content he amend his speach if he had yet amended it and not rather vtterly marred al. For pretending that the Bishop onely hath by the word of god the excōmunication committed vnto him he saith notwithstanding that the church if she wil may commit that autoritie vnto other giuig the church autority to make that common which the word of god hath made seueral Thus he enterfeereth at euery step almost cutting him self to pitifully The rest is answered so are the two next diuisions sauing that it appeareth that yow were somewhat hongry of a testimony of great reading which pres myne so sore that may be giuen to the veriest trewand that euer went on two legges which may in half an hower know the minde of twenty commentaries and requireth rather a man wel booked then ether wel red or wel learned To proue that the lord did not borow this form of gouernment of the Iues he assigneth one reason because he neuer appointed it vnto them which beside the vntruth that hath and shal further appear is contrary to that him self hath affirmed where he saith that al euen the least thinges vnder the law were commaunded So that oneles he wil denie that they had euer any Eldership or hauing it had it against the commādement of god it must folow that they had it by the prescript of god Another reason is for that the Iues abused their Eldership then which there can be nothing more disagreing from the D. whole cours of defence which wil not haue so much as a peeld ceremony remoued for the abuse Vnto the reason I alledged why the word Councel in S. Mathew is taken for the Eldership of the church he answereth nothing wherunto ad that in other places of the new Testament where it is oft mentioned it is alwaies so taken The testimonies he citeth are partly to no purpose partly before confessed of me This is a wonderful bouldnes that yow dare say yea and glory in yt that S. Paul kept an other order of excommunication then our Sau. Christ commanded considering that he autoriseth his doeinges in the church of Corinth with this that he gaue that vuhich he receiued who also in this very particular case of the incestuous man alledgeth the autoritie of our Sauiour Christ. That owt of M. Caluin maketh against him manifestly For vpon the places boeth of S. Mathew and Paul he sheweth that the church hath interest in the excommunication onely he noteth that our Sa. Christ applied his form of speach to the estate of the church then which is nothing to our purpose After vpon confidence of M. Caluins autority onely he triumpheth vpon the interpretation I browght of the purging of leuain noting the thrusting ovut of the incestuous person which notwithstāding is proued for as much as that vers is the conclusion of that before where by leuain cā not be denied but the incestuous person is noted vnles we wil say that the Apostle concluded another thing then that which he had before mentioned M Beza also comming after M. Caluin and not easely dissenting from him foloweth the same sens which I haue doen So that althowgh yow take your pleasure of me yet yow should not ride so hard vpon him But mark a litle how vnable your answers be to vphould such a confident insultation For where this here spoken by a borowed speach is playnly vttered yow are compelled to expoūd these wordes of the Apostle take avuay the vuicked man amongest yovu that is shun his cōpany which is not onely a wresting of words but also vnsitting to the cōparisō with the leuained bread which S. Paule vseth to
should conclude that al haue power alike because Keis with power to lok and vnlok be giuen to al. For this manifest difference is in the maner of speach considering that Math. 16 he speaketh of one in the singuler nombre in Iohn 20 althowgh he speak in the plural yet he vnderstandeth yt distributiuely that ys that euery one of the Ministers binedeth and loseth by preaching But in S. Math. 18 those wordes being added to autorise the churchis excommunication which word church is a noun collectiue they can not be drawen to the particular person of the Minister Here also it is to be obserued that the D. hath quite ouerthrowen his difference of the Bishop and of another Minister in the matter of excommunication For if in S. Math. 16 and Iohn 20 togither with the preaching of the word is vnderstanded power to excommunicate al Ministers of the word hauing by those places autority to preach it must folow necessarily that they al haue power committed vnto them to excommunicate And so falleth his whole cause which is that by the word of god the Bishop onely hath the right of excommunication Vuhere to that of S. Paules excommunicating Alexander c I answered that one is said to doe alone that vuhich he vuas moderator of and vuherein he had assistāce he answereth that it is an imagined shift But now he knoweth at least if he wil not acknowledg it that it standeth of vnfallible reason and is confirmed with moste graue autority of learned men To that I answer towching the place of Titus that to auoid an heritik is not to excommunicate him but to troble him self no more vuith him he opposeth M. Caluins autoritie withowt any aid of reason wherein when I haue shewed the reason which led me so to expound the place let the reader doe as him thinketh good remembring that if he vnderstand it of excommunication yet it helpeth him not the same answer seruing which was giuen to the place of Timothe For so much then as the Apostle willeth that the Minister should avoid him as one vtterly peruerted and notwithstanding willeth otherwhere that the excommunicate should be houlden for a brother vntil such time as it appeareth how that medicine of excommunication wil work with him and for that also yt apperteineth vnto the Minister especially euen then priuately to cal vpon him when he is excommunicate it seemeth that this can not be vnderstanded of one to be excommunicated but of a desperate enemy whom excommunication hath not cured but rather is throwgh the poison in him hardened And hereof I haue the iudgment of Ireneus which saith that the fact of S. Iohn the Apostle which would not goe into the bathes where Cerinthus the heritik was nor once so much as speak vnto him vuas doen according to this rule of S. Paul to Titus And if an heretik be taken in that sens which the D. hath often taken him in saying he mayer but that he wil be no heretik that is to say for one that standeth stif in his fals opinion then we must needes vnderstād that this order which S. Paul prescribeth is vnderstāded of that which is to be doen after excommunication For in such we must not tarry vntil two or three admonitiōs be giuen but assone as one sheweth him self an heretik in that sens the sentence of excommunication lieth against him But if the D. wil needes haue it vnderstanded of excommunication it shal be the bane of his own cause and a confirmation of that answer which he so scornefully reiecteth For S. Paul noting excommunication by the auoiding of the person excommunicate in commanding Titus to auoid him doeth not therefore command him alone where as the D. wil haue these and such like commandementes addressed vnto Titus and Timothe alone But ether the church is not here excluded which yow denie or els it foloweth that the church may kepe company with an heretik and the Minister onely forbidden so to doe which is absurd In the next diuision in steed of Basiles offices cited in the latin and English book he hath set owt a long sentence of Ambrose but which maketh nether whot nor kould it being graunted that it apperteyneth to the Bishop but denied that it doeth onely whether to take one man for an other be so gros a faut as to cite a book which neuer was let al iudg yow should rather haue compared my faut with yours in the next diuision sauing one which yow pas by as yow doe other withowt any confession The next diuision I leau vnanswered In the next I confes I was deceiued in the order of the story which came thereupon that Sozomene telleth that first which was doen after and contrariwise but my answer that the Bishops sole excommunicating vuas but the publishing of the sentence giuen by him and the church standeth Nether is it of any weight that George would not be entreated or that sute was made to him for absolution For it is easely answered that George had numbers of his faction for the gaining of which it behoued to win him first The D. would with wordes bear vs down that Theodoret and Sozom. affirm Ambrose to haue excōmunicated the Emperour alone which is but a facing there being nether the word alone nether any wordes which countervail yt his reason that Ambrose caried away al the commendation is nothing worth seing it is knowen that the chief beareth the name as the general of the field or Captayn is often said to haue won the field whē notwithstanding he vsed thereto the valiancie of the souldiers And to set aside the institution of god it had bene no commendation of Ambrosis courage but a note of rashnes and folish hardines to haue enterprised that of him self against such a mightie Emperour wherein he might haue had the support of others seing therby not onely the danger should haue bene les towardes him but also the fruit greater towardes the Emperour whilest yt should haue had more autority that was doen by him with others then by him self alone And when Ambrose saith precisely that he should be more charged vuith displeasure then the rest he giueth to vnderstād that some of the displeasure would lye vpon the neckes of the other Bishops which with hym determined of that excommunication althowgh not so much as vpon his that should haue the execution of yt whereby yt is yet more apparant that the place owt of Ambrosis epistel towching the Synod and of his answer to the Emperour was cited faithfully withowt falsifying As for his answer that the Bishopes lamented it onely it hath no likelyhood as it is obserued Vuhere he saith that the Synod was assembled before the slaughter there appeareth no such thing althowgh the cause lieth not in that point For yt is al one to vs whether the Coūcel met for that matter or being assembled for other vpon the report of yt decreed of
that censure The confession of his faut before the congregation and asking forgiuenes of the church was alledged to purpose For what is yt to ask forgiuenes but to ask absolutiō of the church and why should he ask to be absolued of the church if the church had not bound hym That he saith the penitentes doe so with vs touching any demaund of absolution of the church I think it be vntrue wherein nothwithstanding I refer me vnto the practise but if it be it is a very mockery to craue absolution of it whē as howsoeuer it is satisfied the Bishops absolution right or wrong must stand In the first section of his next diuision let the reader iudg how shameful his denialis and in the fourth section how miserable his defence is the rest are answered Here as thowgh Tertullian had cōmitted some high treason the D. draweth him and quartereth him vpon Rhenanus coment whereas althowgh Rhenanus disioyn the sentēces by putting his comment betwene that which I conioyned yet he ioyneth thē in expositiō as those which hang togither for Tertull hauing before spokē of the casting forth of the wicked owt of the cōmunion of the church Rhenanus addeth least yt should be thovught a confused cōpany it is said that there vuere certein Elders etc. yt is to much bouldnes therfore for yow to say that it can not be gathered of this place that these elders medled with excommunication If they medled with other thinges as yow confes much more with this if the putting betwene of Rhenanus commentary doeth not hinder that this sentence should be referred vnto thinges which are further from yt why should it hinder the referring of yt to excommunication which goeth immediatly before And beside this open light of Tertulliās wordes yow haue M. Peter Martyr that was no mangler nor corrupter of Tertullian which vpon this place precisely affirmeth that these Seniors had their gouernment in excommunication your shift that the Elders Tertullian speaketh of were likely to be Ministers of the word and sacramētes is answered In that yow say this autority being admitted the people is quite shut owt first yow cōclude negatiuely of autority namely that they haue nothing to doe because Tertullian doeth not say they had Then yow faut again in not marking that when Tertullian saith that these were Presidentes or cheif in the matter he leaueth a significatiō that other had to doe in yt which folowed with their sentence those that with the ripenes of their iudgment went before the rest is answered If the excōmunicate might not be receiued withowt the peoples request much les withowt their consent for men vse not to make request for that they consent not vnto As for that alledged because Cyprian would haue that absolution stand which was doen by one that therefore it is lawful for the Bishop alone to absolue is to trifle For so Cyprian wil haue it stand that in the mean season he condemneth the doer of yt And the D. owght to vnderstand that it is one thing to prescribe what should be doen and another to support a thing which being commanded is otherwise doen then it owght as hath bene shewed in the baptim by heretikes Victor also being repentant and hauing shewed fruites thereof it had bene against right to haue thrust him owt again Yf he had not repented it is certain that Cyprian would haue dealt with him afresh Cyprian professeth that he vuould neuer doe any thing in his bishoprik vuithovut the counsail of the Elders and consent of the people and yet the D. can not see how this should make against his sole excommunication what stronger wordes could there haue bene If he vuould doe nothing vuithovut them how much les excommunicate which is so weighty a iudgment As for that he expoundeth no matter that is no doutful matter it is a shameful corruptiō which appeareth in that beside the counsail of the Elders to resolue him of the dowt if any were he addeth also the consent of the people Also for that the same case wherein he protesteth he would haue doen nothing withowt the church was a plain case and whereof he was able to resolue withowt the aduise of other Likewise that he sayth it was in Cyprians power to haue doen al him self alone because he saith he determined not to doe so is yet more ridiculous as thowgh Dauid in saying he determined to kepe the vuord of god or any other that he determineth to kepe his promis doe therby giue to vnderstand that ether the one needed not to kepe the word of god or the other his promis The next place maketh the Elders and other church men as vuel to haue povuer in absoluing as the Bishop yet the D. seeth not how that maketh against him which would haue the Bishop alone but saith he the people is not there mentioned as thowgh that was not sufficiently shewed in other places and here left owt because they did not lay on their handes as the church officers althowgh in the later end of that epistle he also threatneth the disordered persōs that if they goe forvuard they shal be made to ansvuer the matter before the people But yt appeareth saith he that it could not be doen withowt the Bishop euen as it could not be doen withowt those whome Cypriā calleth clerkes beside that it is to great daliance seing none denieth the Bishops an interest The next place is wherein Cyprian saith that for so much as absolution belonged vnto al meaing of those in his church that he alone durst not doe yt yet sayth he in that they desire it at Cyprians hand it argueth that the maner was then for one to absolue was yt in deed the maner to doe that which was not lawful euen by your own confession that is for one to lose that which many had bound For they which desired absolution knw that they were excommunicate by many if therfore vpon that they desired absolution of one it be wel concluded that one was wont to absolue it foloweth that they were wont to doe that which was vnlawful which is a slaunder of that tyme and yet helpeth yow not But the reader may vnderstand that they came therfore to desire absolution of Cyprian because it belonged vnto him to assemble the Seniors by whom the receiuing was first handled before yt came to the church And who knoweth not that the grief of the penitent synner languishing and feinting with desire of being ioyned with the church again doeth euen wring owt petitions to be helped of them which are not able alone to help especially when as they likely thowght that the rest would be counsailed by Cyprian who seeth not also that the sens of Cypriās answer to those afflicted persons which would haue bene deliuered before the tyme prescribed of their repentance is to shew him self moued with compassion of their sorow which he for his part
was ready to help if the other would thereto agree which may better appear by that epistle where the D. saith he can finde nothing of this matter which notwithstanding is most pregnant For Cyprian sheweth there how he trauailed greatly vuith his church to receiue those vuhich hauing fallen avuay repented them declaring thereby that it was not in him alone In the end althowgh he hath vsed such bouldnes as I am ashamed to giue the proper name of yet he feareth not to say that I haue abused the reader which let him vnderstand as touching three of the middle places to be spoken as wel against M. Caluin as me who vseth them to condemn the sole excommunication of the Bishop To the places owt of Augustin noting that he vuould haue this discipline ceas if the more part be infected vuhereby I gathered that he vuas of iudgment that the consent of the church vuas to be required he answereth that those sayinges are to be vnderstanded not of any right they had of excommunication but of the mislikyng of the fact for which the Bishop doeth excommunicate But where hath he in Augustin that interpretation more then I haue that which I set down I am wel assured that Augustins wordes are as fauorable to mine as to his and so much the more fauorable as the schism which he would haue by this meanes auoided riseth soner when one is excommunicate of whome they haue giuen the Bishop to vnderstand that they would not haue hym thrown owt then when no such iudgment hath passed from them For then the vngodly oppose thē selues not onely because they would haue the faut wherwith they them selues be infected vnpunished but also because they wil auow their own sentence Nether did I propound that sentence for Augustins wordes as he surmiseth but as that which I gathered of them As for the medicin which he pretendeth to giue that the people retain sinnes when they separate them selues from the company of the excommunicate it is giuen to him that is not sik For althowgh that may by a borowed speach be so called wherby the effect is put for the cause yet that Augustin meant not that onely it is manifest in that he attributeth vnto the church helping of the Bishop yea and the very word of accursing which he vseth for excommunicating so that the D. hath corrupted the minde of Augustin For Augustin putteth first of al the churches helping of the Bishop in excommunicating as one seueral thing and then the auoiding of his company for another which he expoundeth as al one but if he wil depart from the vsual speach he must shew vs some good autority wherby it may appear that we must needes wring Augustins wordes to that sens which I am assured he can not doe especially when Ierome who liued in the same age with Augustin affirmeth that togither with the Bishop the Elders in other censures of the church and the church yt self haue interest in the excommunication whereupon may appear that my interpretation of the places browght ether before or now towching the Bishop excommunicating vuhich is that he vuas the cheif in the action and had the publishing of the sentence and not the vuhole right of excommunication is soūd and cōformable boeth to the holy scripture and practis of the elder and purer churches That the Canon of the coūcel of Sardis whereof the Answerer glorieth is to be vnderstanded not of the Bishop alone one profe is in the Elders ioynt gouernment with the Bishop generally in al matters which I haue before set down Another shal be that another Councel autoriseth the suspension which the Elders and Clerkes decree against the Bishop and that as yt saith by autority of aunciēt decrees The Councels therfore giuing the Elders remedy at home and with in them selues the rash excommunication which the Coūcel ascribeth vnto the Bishop must needes be vnderstood to haue bene doen by aduise of the Elders For otherwise if the Elders consented not vnto yt they had by the auncient decrees autority to deal with the Bishop thē selues withowt running ether to Metrapolitane or other Bishop yf this answer like him not let him if he had rather take that which M. Caluin giueth that the Bishops vuhen they excommunicated of them selues alone did it ambitiously cōtrary to the decrees of the godly Councels As for that yow be of iudgment that the Bishop may not excommunicate whom he listeth withowt profe c. and therto cite a long sentence owt of Augustin it is wel said but wherfore serueth this wel saying doe yow think the church much behoulding to yow for that which neuer any yet the Popes Cāonistes excepted which giue him absolute power to throw owt and take in whom he list durst deny here therfore yow run fairely but owt of the way altogither If I of the other side should herein set down the iudgment of Bucer Martyr Zuinglius and other godly writers of our age against the sole excommunication by the Bishop it would require a book by it self But as in a thing clear and plain I wil not weary the reader The two next diuisions as meer and oft repeted reproches I omit In the next he confesseth that Chauncelors c. owght not to medle with excommunication The ciuil separation from trafique c. cited owt of Gualter is nothing but a rouing For we meddle not here with ciuil punishment except he peraduenture be of his iudgment that the ecclesiastical discipline of excommunication may be taken owt of the church and this ciuil separation put in place if he be let him speak owt that we may hear him But because these kinde of allegations be daungerous and tend to the shaking of this institution of god and for that alowing sometyme of excommunication as of the institution of god at other some tymes he insinuateth that yt should not be exercised especially against the Prince and nobility leauing M. Gualter I wil take me to hym And to speak in a word of yt yt is nothing but a meer mockery of the lord and to offer hym self as a Baud to al maner of synnes in Princes Yf al were deliuered from this correction as M. Gualter pretendeth then yt were good reason that the Prince should also but to insinuat that others being subiect onely Princes should be exempted I fear commeth from a wors cause then from simple error For who could be ignorant that our S. Christ speaketh generally when he saith yf thy brother c. whereby he cōprehendeth al those that are members of one church and childrē of one heauenly father In which nōber the scripture reckeneth the kyng whilest in yt he is boeth called a brother and calleth his subiectes brethren or who could be ignorant that S. Paul subiecteth al vnto this order sauing those onely which are straūgers from the church So that to say that Princes are not subiect vnto
this order is al one as yf he should say that Princes pertain no to the kingdome of heauen are none of the church haue no part with Christ c. Thus ys boeth Christ robbed of his honor which in cōtempt of his order as thowgh yt were to base for Princes to goe vnder is hym self contemned and Princes defrauded of a singuler ayd of saluation and way to draw them to repentance when they throwgh the common corruption fal into such diseases against which this medicin was prepared Hether belongeth the practise of the church in this and such kinde of censures toward the Emperoures Philip Theodosius and Anastasius on the one side and the godly Emperoures submission thereunto on the other which yf he vpon confidence of M. Gualters autority dare cōdemn of pride in them which exercised those censures or of foly in the Emperours that submitted them selues not to charge hym with Master Nowels autority which saith that the Prince ovught paciently to abide excommunication at the Bishops handes what wil he answer to the example of Mary Moses syster and kyng Vzzias which were subiect to the same law of vncleānes by reason of the leprosy aswel as any of the common people For that the separation commanded in respect thereof was not onely a ciuil policy to kepe the whole from the sik but that there was therein vsed a part of Ecclesiastical discipline yt may appear for that the Priest had the knowledg of the cause the shutting them owt and receiuing them in and for that Azarias the Priest of the lord with other his Assistantes remoued the kyng owt of the temple for the which he is commended in the scripture And if yt had bene onely a ciuil separation yet when the Princes could not be exempted from yt for fear of a corporal infecting of their subiectes how much les owght they to be exempted from that separation which is instituted against the spiritual contagion that which he obiecteth of the drawing this spiritual sword at euery light or no occasion at al thereby to deliuer the Prince from subiection thereto ys vayn for yf they abuse this power the Price needeth not onely to cōtēn yt but also may punish the abusers of yt So that in this respect there is les cause why the Prince should shake of this yoke of Christ then others considering that he hath better remedy against the abuse of yt then others That cōtractes of mariadg appertain not vnto the iudgment of church officers it is manifest considering that it is partly oeconomical and belonging to the right of the parentes partly ciuil in respect that it was in tymes past concluded before the Magistrate For as for the blessing in the church it is no part of the contract but a thing annexed vnto yt which appeareth in that vpon the bare contract before the blessing the parties althowgh not to haue company one with another be man and wife and for that the breaker of that contract is taken for an adulterer wherevpon it foloweth that the iudgment of diuors being meerly publik must be the ciuil magistrates alone For matters of willes it appeareth that they belong vnto the Magistrate considering that they are occupied in the commodities of this life and towch the distribution of goodes or landes As for the An. reason that the Bishop hauing best knowledg in those thinges may best iudg in them it is a hook to get al into their own handes But I deny first that they haue or can by their calling haue best knowledg in such thinges considering that there be diuerse thinges in them which require other knowledg then of the law of god And the case is rare when the question is whether a legacy a contract or a diuors be according to the law of god or no at least which requireth any deep knowledg to dissolue it And if al that which may fal into these matters were to be decided by the law of god yet to sit as iudg in them requireth not onely knowledg but also a calling which Bishops can not haue for the causes aboue alledged Therefore it is manifest that herein the Bishops are vsurpers whereof also the D. may read M. Nowels iudgment that vuhoredomes adulteries slaunders subtraction of tithes cases testamentary c. vuhich Bishops sometyme meddle vuith are no more spiritual then are murthers theftes oppressions and other iniuries Nether wil it help him that they exercise al maner of iurisdiction in the Princes right For first it hath bene shewed that they owght to exercise no ciuil iurisdiction althowgh it were committed vnto them Then how cometh it to pas that in right of their bishoprik withowt further commission from the Prince they take vpon them these iudgmentes of whoredome diuorces c euen as they found them in tyme of popery And as for excommunication and other censures ecclesiastical if they exercise them in the Magistrates right it foloweth that boeth the magistrate may much more exercise them him self and appoint other then ministers to doe thē boeth which as they be absurd so are they ouerthrowen by the D. him self which thinketh it vnlawful for Chauncelors to excommunicate for that as I suppose they be no ministers In the next where the Chauncelors are charged to excommunicate and absolue for money also one man for another c. he saith it is the faut of the man and not of the law which if it were true yet it argueth the Bishops vnsufferable carelesnes of godes glorie whose institution is thus shamefully profaned and neglect of duty towardes the Prince whose subiectes are thus pilled And here it is not to be omitted that where the ecclesiastical cēsures in reformed churches are exercised withowt a penny charge vnto any person our churches partly by reason of the Archbis and Bishops and partly the Archdeacons officers and their hangons which by this meanes liue in al brauery and iolytie of life are sore wrung So that they are therby much les able to contribute to the necessary charges ether of releeuing their poor minister or susteyning the subsidies laid vpon them for defence of the realm Therfore if the Archbishops and Archdeacons wil needes take more vpon them then them selues be able to beweld at the least let them pay their seruantes wages and not thus burden the church But thus the reader may see how vnworthely the Archbishops Bishops and Archdeacons deal with the church which not content them selues to vse tyranny ouer yt and to take vpon them of their priuate autority which belongeth vnto other with them haue also brought it into bondage vnder their seruantes and seruātes seruātes I mean Chauncelors Comissaries c. The next I pas by In the next where I shew that the office of Chorepiscopus alledged for defence of the Chauncelers office vuas far another thing he saith that he onely alledged yt to proue that Bishops had their deputies ▪ which how
vnhonest a shift it is may appear in that he maketh no difference betwene the Chauncelor and Chorepiscopus but onely in the name saying to contend for the name when the thing is certeyn is a token of a contentious person Althowgh he had not so gained that the Bishops had deputies seing I shewed that boeth the nature of the word and the autority of certein interpreters lead to the signification aswel of a Bishop in the countrey townes as of a deputie yt is vntrue that I haue any where alowed an ordinary deputy wherof the question is here but contrary wise haue shewed that there owght to be none not onely in the treatise of the Pastors residence but also in this wherunto the D. answereth nothing But if it were graunted that they might haue such as I haue shewed to haue bene Chorepisc yet what a strange conclusion is this that they may aswel haue Chauncelors considering that he is now constreyned to confes the office of the one greatly different from the other The rest is answered so are the two next In the next where he is charged for alowing as necessary the Archbishops court of faculties c which he confesseth he knoweth not what it meaneth He saith he browght better reason for it then is browght against yt which is no defence of his rashnes wherby he affirmed that which he confessed he knew not His reason which he hath learned sithens is that the Quenes prerogatiues are defended there As thowgh the Archbishop were the fittest man to defend her prerogatiues Also that it was set vp when the Pope was put down in deed so yt was which is a good sign that the Archbishop sauing profession of obedience to the king was made Pope in his place For herevpon it cometh that he exerciseth vntolerable and filthy marchandise of which diuers obiected by the Adm. he partly confessed and part throwgh lothnes to confes and vnability to answer were passed by That also of not changing lawes but vpon strong reasons which he other where repeateth hath no place where the question is whether they be against the word of god or no. For here that worthy sentence hath place yf god command any thing against the maner or decree of vuhatsoeuer they be if it vuere neuer doen before it ovught to be doen if it haue bene omitted it ovught to be restored if it vuere neuer before it ovught to be instituted Yf the D. allegation haue place it hath place in variable ceremonies which notwithstaÌ„ding as hath bene shewed the church hath changed according as the circumstances haue required to the most of her comodity Seing therfore our Sau. Christ commandeth that the excommunication should be made by the church Seing the Apostles his faithful interpreters coÌ„municate the same power with yt in commanding yt to thrust owt impeniteÌ„t synners to procure that boeth they may be saued and others also kept from infectioÌ„ seing also the holy gost chideth the church for that it had not vsed this power against the vnrepentant Seing he communicateth with it the power of absoluing those which were thrust owt wheÌ„ they declare their repentance Last of al seing boeth the iudgment and general practise of the elder churches and in a maner of those which are now lead vs hereunto Of the other side seing the Bishop can not pas smaller matters withowt the aduise of the church seing by his sole excommunication he hath browght the church to a miserable seruitude and that not to him self alone but to his seruantes Chauncelors Officials c. seing vnder colour hereof he hath thrust his sickle into the Magistrates office suffred the glory of god to be troden vnder foot the Quenes subiectes to be pilled And finally seing that for his sole excommunicatioÌ„ there is not so much as one ether approued example or writer to be browght some of the papistes them selues being ashamed of it let vs conclude that the excommunication doeth not belong vnto the Bishop alone but that by the ordinance of god the church also here owght to haue her interest THE TENTH TRACT OF THE OFFICE OF DEAcons vuhich conteineth the D. xix and xiiij HIs question where the office of widowes is restreined to the poor which are sik and strangers I pas as impertinent especially when he doeth not assign any other to whom their attendance belongeth that the contrary doeth appear almost in expres wordes is but his accustomed bouldnes of vntrue speaking Let vs therfore come to the Deacons whose office is assigned to be abowt the church money The first proof hereof receiued for answer that it was but daliance with the scripture â—ith which tyme althowgh M. Caluin Bucer Martyr and Beza haue bene shewed to haue so expounded the place yet his accusation is vnrepealed whereby al these learned men with many others stand charged stil by him as daliers with the scripture But what think yow doeth he answer to this whole colledg of godly learned men he opposeth the exposition of certain fathers who would haue looked for this answer at his hand in setting one writer against another withowt a tittle of reason wordes onely excepted which hath so bytingly condemned yt in other These learned men were not ignorant of those expositions nether did they lightly depart from the interpretation of the auncient writers For whome also it may be answered that in interpreting this place of priuate giuing they meÌ„t not to shut owt this office And of M. Bullinger it is manifest that he doeth so alow of that that he wil haue it vnderstood properly of the Deaconship so that yow openly abuse his testimony herein The cause why the auncient fathers folowed this exposition is known wel enowgh to those which haue bene conuersant in them with any iudgment namely a desire they had to draw al to the correction of maners streyning often tymes their textes in hand to draw them to the present vse of their churches by reason wherof whether in steed of milk they sometimes drw bloud I leau it to the iudgment of the learned reader But let vs see if this wrangling of his can be conuinced of the place yt self where first it is manifest that it is an explanation of that similitude which was drawen from the body in which the Apostle shewed that as al the members haue not one office So in the church euery one hath not the same function wherevpon foloweth that if this distributioÌ„ of money which is a part of that explanation should agree to al the church alike and should not be a seueral office he should quite ouerthrow his purpose For he should shew thinges agreeing vnto al alike in steed that he should haue shewed that some thinges be peculiar Yf he reply that he had shewed those before and that here he beginneth to shew the thinges which are common to al Christians alike he is manifestly beaten down by the order
the office of preaching ād caring for the poor cōsidering that they be not able to doe boeth thorovughly yea euen immediatly after that corrupt sentence which the Ans wil needes father vpon Ambrose it is said that in his tyme the Deacons did not preach Of this practis of the elder churches we haue M. Bullinger that giueth a playn testimony with vs that althovugh the goodes of the church encreasing there vuere beside the Deacons Subdeacons and Archdeacons yet that the Deacons remayned stil in their charge for the poor and vuere not as yet mingled vuith the Bishops or priestes and vuith the order of those vuhich tavught This being thus set that which for the straūgenes I called a monster falleth flatly for whē yt hath appeared boeth by the word of god and practis of the elder churches that it be lōgeth not vnto the office of the Deacō to meddle with the mynistery of the word and sacramentes yf yt be true which the Ans saith that prouision for the poor by a Deacō is not necessary vnder a Christian Prince yt must folow that the office of Deaconship vnder a Christian Prince is vnnecessary which as yt ys absurd so hym self I think wil not affirm yt yf he doe yt hath the same refutation which the denial of the necessity of the office of Elders hath had before Na althowgh yt were graūted which he would haue that the Deacons office were to minister the word and sacramēt yet this point of prouisiō for the poor taken away the Deacon is quite extinguished cōsidering that there should remayn no part of office whereby the minister of the word should be seuered yf he say that there should be differēce in that the one might minister the supper and the other not beside that I haue shewed how absurd that is he cā not so escape for stil the giftes are al one cōsidering that whosoeuer hath giftes of god to minister the word and Baptī the same hath also giftes to inable hym to minister the supper whereas seing S. Paul separateth the offices by their giftes yt were against reason to make thē diuers offices which haue the same giftes for their executiō Beside that in taking away that which he is cōstreyned to cōfes to haue bene by gods institutiō at the least a part of this office he is manifestly cōuicted of chāging and corrupting yf not of vtter ouerthrowing the lordes ordināce Els let hym shew vs what tittle of the scripture he hath whereby yt may appear that the ministery of the word and Baptim which he surmiseth to belong vnto yt should be perpetual and the prouision for the poor temporal So also appeareth that the cōtradictiō is vnanswered which was laid vnto hym in that in the lati book saying yt owght not to be takē away in this and the other he saith that this part is not necessary for thus should yt not be the office of a Deacō instituted by the holy Apost but another functiō forged by D. whitgift This assertiō of his being straūg his reason wherupon yt is groūded is yet further owt of fashiō for he contenteth not hym self to say that mē may deuise as good away for the prouision of the poor as did the lord hym self oneles in this behalf he set vp the wisdome of men aboue the lordes For this doeth he playnly in effect affirm when he saith that the poor may by other lawful and politik meanes be better prouided for cōsidering that yt was the lordes own order established by the Apost where beside that his reason is a demaund of that in question and that the vntruth therof hath bene before noted I wil answer further owt of Esra where there is a notable story towchīg a matter not much vnlike for after he had receiued of kīg Darius boeth precious vessels and other giftes for gods seruice being now in iorney frō Babylō vnto Ierusalem and vnderstanding vpon view of his company that there were not of Priestes and Leuites a sufficient number to whome he might commit this treasure stayed there with his whole suit vntil such tyme as he had recouered a competent nomber of the church men For that this was the cause of their sending for appeareth by the yssu of committing the treasure vnto their custody And albeit there might be some other vse of them at Ierusalem beside this cariadg yet that their presence was necessary in this respect it is manifest not onely because otherwise he might haue giuē order that they should haue comen after withowt staying so great a company for their sakes but especially vpon the wordes of Esra which assigneth the cause of theyr election vnto that charge to haue bene for that the money and plate being consecrate to a holy vse yt behoued them which were likewise consecrated to haue the custody of yt Now if the Ans should sit in iudgment of this act of Esra and iudg by his Canon law which he hath here set down this godly learned Priest hath already receiued the blak stone or sentence of condemnation For were there not as faithful and as wise for that purpose in the company as ether the Priestes or Leuites were were there not of the Princes which for their skil in fight and for the trayn which folowed them were more able to make head with the enemy that should giue the attempt to take them away then were ether the Priestes or Leuites finally is it not a meer superstition to stand thus vpon the difference of a tribe or family with los of tyme and expens of money in so great a company But the Priest appealeth to that court where the canon of the holy scripture sitteth Iudg. which because yt teacheth that the safty and prosperous succes of thinges depend vpon the blessing of god and that that blessing is especially giuen where thinges are doen according to his institution the same restoreth his righteousnes agayn and giueth hym the white stone of absolution for that the weaker and more vnlikely hauing the calling of god thereunto is more apt then withowt that calling the strongest Sampson that can be got So that if in common reason the Collectors were fitter then the Deacons which is vntrue considering that the same may be ecclesiastically ordeyned Deacons which are Collectors yet forasmuch as it is the vnrepealed and vnrevoked order of god that the Deacon should doe this yt owght to be preferred to al the inuentions of men how faier and colourable soeuer they appear But of the confutation of this enowgh is said especially considering that beside the continual practis of the church with the common consent of the learned boeth ould and nue M. Bucer hath labored this point particularly in the behalf of our church which sheweth that this office must of necessity be restored as yt is described Act. the vi if England vuil receiue the true discipline of Christ Hereupon also considering there be
he excepteth first that if that were a sacrament the Minister may make sacramentes for that Noah made yt as if it owght to be so straung that the Minister ministerially and subordinately according to the institution praescribed of god should be said to make the sacrament For as yt it often tymes said that the Priestes made the sacrifices So the Minister in vsing the water which was common before vnto that vse and after that sort which Christ hath appointed maketh yt holy and Sacramental water Nether owght yt to be more straung vnto him that the minister should after this sort make the sacrament then that he should saue his hearers that he should harden their heartes close vp their eyes stop vp their eares c. al which thinges the scripture ascribeth vnto the minister Secondly he saith it had no promise of eternal life nor was a seal of any promise boeth which are vntrue For it confirmed Noah in the promise that god had giuen that he should not be drowned with the rest of the world And as the promises made of temporal blessinges vnto the fathers extended them selues vnto the euerlasting so the sacramēts to confirm those promises were sacramentes to confirm thē in the hope of eternal life This doeth S. Peter confirm which teacheth that the preseruation of Noah in the Ark was the same to him and his which baptim is to vs to whome the Ans doeth in this point directly oppose him self Thirdly he addeth that it was a figure of the church and therfore no sacrament which foloweth not For the bread and wine in the holy supper are so a Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ that they are neuertheles Sacramentes of the church represented thereby in that as many cornes make one loaf and many grapes one cup of wine so many members make one body of Christ which is the church Nether is the example of the miracles vnaptly alledged for they be signes to confirm the word of god as are the Sacramentes therefore whosoeuer can shew that Ministers of the word owght onely to be Ministers of the signes wherby it is confirmed sheweth that they onely must be Ministers of the Sacramentes To proue that the forbidding of them from the ministring of the word is their forbidding from the ministring of the Sacramentes I browght an argument of contraries for that S. Paul being bidden to minister the word as in thinges which goe togither did withowt further commandement minister the Sacramentes which was belike as a pil that he could not wel swalow considering that he answereth nothing And if this be not a good argument then there is no commandement in the scripture to bar wemen from being publik ministers of the Sacramentes for it is no where expresly forbidden them to minister the sacramentes but onely to minister the word Yf therfore the godly learned haue iudged them vnmeet to minister the sacramentes because the holy scripture hath disabled them to minister the word yt foloweth necessarily that none may haue power to minister the sacramētes which hath not also to minister the word for otherwise if those might publikly minister the sacramentes which can not doe the word wemen by reason of their sex are not so shut owt but that they may haue entrance into that ministery Against this and to proue that there may be ministers of the sacramentes and not of the word he referreth me to his pag. 483 where are cited Chrysostom Ambrose Martyr and Caluin vpō these wordes Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach For answer whereunto first it must be vnderstanded that when S. Paul saith that he was not sent to baptiz his meaning is not that he had no maner of sending at al to baptiz For so should his own mouth condemn hym as one which had vndertaken to doe that wherunto he was not sent considering that he confesseth in the same place that he baptized certein howshouldes what is then his meaning Verely euen that which he declareth by his practis that he was rather sent to preach then to baptiz And of such negatiues by cōparison the Ans could not be ignorant seing boeth he hath otherwhere made mention of them and it is a thing which a yong diuine and he that hath yet the pap in his mouth may easely vnderstand As when it is said receiu my discipline and not siluer Likewise that thy name shal be no more called Iacob but Israel that is to say rather discipline then siluer rather Israel then Iacob Now seing S. Paul did boeth preach and baptiz by autority of god and vertue of his calling al may see that no man can cōclude of this place that one may be minister of the sacramētes and not of the word if any thing cā be cōcluded it is that some may be occupied in administring the word more thē in the sacramentes And this is also an answer to that alledged owt of Zuinglius towching Christ teaching and his disciples baptising considering that the disciples preached also althowgh not so much as our Sav. Christ Secondly in so great numbers of men and wemen to be baptized if to the end that the Apostles cours of preaching should not be stayed others had that charge to pour on the water which were no Ministers of the word that was in the beginning before any ordinary ministery of Bishop was erected in the churches and therfore nothing perteyning to our quaestion which in quire what owght to be the ordinary and settled gouernment of the church For is it credible to a man of any iudgment that ether the Apostle would commit or these writers would say that he committed the office of baptizing vnto those which were not Ministers of the word passing by the Pastor him self Albeit where there was no Pastor to assist the Apostles I see not why the help that others which were no ministers of the word gaue in that administration should be properly called baptizing no more then he which serueth the Pastor ether in carying abowt the bread or reaching the cup can be said to haue ministred the lordes supper So that the Apostle S. Peter hauing preached of the vse of baptim and pronounced the wordes of the institution althowgh he powred not the owtward element of water with his own hand might wel be said to haue baptized them al. Beside that nothing hindereth why the wordes Act. 10 he commanded them to be baptized may not be expounded that he commāded water to be browght wherwith they should be baptized Howsoeuer it was yt could not be as the D. saith very dangerously owt of Ambrose for that he would not vouchsafe to doe it him self other ministers being present considering that the ministery of the holy sacramentes being of the same nature with the preaching of the word is of greater excellency then any man vpon earth is worthy to handle Beside that seing he aloweth of Ambrosis place to the Ephesians
leaf in his book page 521 where this question is yet pursued and examples browght of lay men which preached in Origins tyme. where it is first to be noted that the Ans is contrary to him self which page 139 and last section denieth that any man may preach the word no not so much as to shew a proof of his ability vnles he be at the least admitted into the ministery Yf he haue an admittance to the ministery of the word how is he a lay man As for that he addeth it was vpon occasion I would know what occasion there could be then when the churches were builded and an order set why lay men should preach Or why might not those Bishops which gaue lay men leau to preach haue ordeyned them ministers of the word seing the Bishop onely by his opinion had then the ordeyning of them was it not as easy for them to haue made them Ministers of the word and so to haue kept the order of god as to haue sent them owt in the quality of lay men contrary to that order so that his drift seemeth to be to bring in al disorder and confusion into the church of god Then I answer that althowgh they were not duly chosen yet were they not mere lay men cōsidering that thei had an ecclesiastical calling such as yt was euen the Bishops admission vnles he wil haue al the Ministers with vs lay men which haue onely the same admision The place was browght of me before not that I approued it in al pointes as I also noted but to shew in what estimation that election was had which was made by the Bishop alone Here vpon that I said that Baptim ministred by an heretical Minister is good he thincketh it to be rather good when it is ministred of a lay man that is a member of the church which is a foul error For an heretical Minister so long as he is suffered to enioy his ministery and not deposed therefrom is boeth a member of the church and a Minister of god althowgh boeth and euil member and an euil Minister And it is as much as if he should say that the execution of a malefactor by a priuate man which is honest is rather lawful then by a publik Magistrat which is a briber withal let it be noted that here the Ans boeth contrary to the truth and contrary to that hym self professeth hangeth the effect of the sacrament vpon the goodnes or naughtines of the Minister in that in this respect he preferreth the sacramēt ministred by a priuat mā being good vnto that which is ministred by an euil man althowgh he be a publik Minister The rest in this diuision ether hath had answer or requireth none Yt had bene as I said a gros error if M. Bucer had iudged it meet that wemen should baptiz And whether the Ans would haue had hym so vnderstood or no I leau to the readers iudgment vpon the discours in boeth his bookes Nether can it want some skar of error to alow of the title of priuate baptim for althowgh it were cōueniēt that the childe should be baptized in the how 's when there is danger to bring it to the church yet forsomuch as that owght not to be withowt a conveniēt nombre of the faithful and withowt the publik Minister the baptim is not as also it can not be priuate but publik As for the reasons they haue bene answered and come to be answered further in the treatise of administration of the sacramentes in priuate howses How vnworthy a thing it is that he should charge vs vuith priuate vuritinges vuhich he kepeth in his study leauing his publik vuorkes let the reader iudg I made mention of other gros absurdities of M. Bucers least the excellency of his learning and godlines should cary the simpler sort to beleue any thing contrary to the truth And yf it be iudged of the godly that I might haue spared that speach it is a thing wherin I wil not stand against them in myne own defence Here first he asketh where Augustin disaloweth baptim by wemen althowgh these wordes of myne doeth not alovu be not so ful yet in that talking of this surmised case of necessity he neuer cometh so low as to the baptim by wemē but stayeth in that which is ministred by lay men it is manifest that he disalowed the baptim by wemen For otherwise if he had thowght that wemen in that case might haue baptized it stoed him vpon to haue taught that in defaut of a lay man a woman might be taken seing that in his iudgment the saluation of the childe stoed thereupon when he dowteth also vuhether it ovught to be ministred again vuhich vuas ministred by a lay man he could hardly leau any dout of the vtter misliking of baptim by wemen whereunto serueth the practis of his tymes which was as hath bene shewed in such cases to run to the church vuith their children His other question cometh to be answered afterward Against the fourth Councel of Carthage which forbiddeth vuemen to baptiz he runneth for aid to Gratian the common falsifier of the good canons of whome I haue before spoken Althowgh if the answer be true which he frameth owt of this forger that she may not baptiz in publik forsomuch as al baptim is to be ministred in publik assembly and that euen then when it is ministred in the how 's it foloweth that a woman may neuer baptiz And to the intent the Ans may know his error the better let hym repair vnto M. Bullinger who citeth this canon to condemn al maner of baptizing by wemen Here also let it be noted that albeit the Answ seing such consent of the learned against baptim by wemen dare not flatly meynteyn it yet where he finedeth any thing to defend yt by althowgh neuer so base he forgetteth it not To that alledged that the breaking of the orders of god vuhereof one is that the minister onely should baptiz the other that it be doen publikly confirmeth men greatly in that heresy that al are damned vuhich are not baptized he answereth nothing Likewise to that that if a man could not be saued vuithovut baptim yet vue might not therefore break the order of god he answereth also nothing but wandereth idly in talking of the necessity of baptim which we confes as hath bene before declared Vuhere against his absurd saying that the teaching of this kinde of priuate baptim implieth no more the tying of saluation vnto the sacrament then to teach that children should be baptized before they be able to answer for them selues I replied that the baptim of young children hath ground in the scripture but baptim by lay men or vuemen hath none he answereth that this confirmeth his saying wherein the reproch of triflyng is to easy to set forth his vntollerable abusing of his reader For to haue answered he owght to haue
he citeth owt of Saunders yt appeareth that he doeth not subiect them vnto the Magistrate in respect of their priesthood Owt of Harding he nether citeth wordes nor quoteth place which his burning desire of coupling vs with the papistes would not haue passed if it could haue bene found And that the reader may better know his great vnfaithfulnes in so weighty a matter let him take Hardings own wordes to the Bishop which are these Yovu teach princes to vse violence against Priestes as thovugh their fautes could not be redressed by the Prelates of the cleargy And after yt is not conuenient that the king should cal Priestes before hym to his ovun seat of iudgment I assigned also another difference that vuhere the papistes vuil haue the Prince execute vuhatsoeuer they conclude be yt good or bad vue say that if there be no lavuful ministery as in the ruinous decayes of religion that then the Prince ovught to set order And if vuhen there is a lavuful ministery it shal agree of any vnlavuful thing that the Prince ovught to stay yt and to driue them to that vuhich is lavuful This difference althowgh he could not deny and althowgh by it we are sundred from the papistes as far as he is frō him that said the kyng of Persia might doe vuhat he lusted yet he continueth his former slaunder that we shake handes with the papistes and feareth not stil to say that he seeth not wherein in this article we differ from them But not able to deny this difference he cauilleth at yt asking first why the prince owght rather to determin of ecclesiastical causes when there is no lawful ministery thē whē there is forsooth because the Magistrate is bound to see the seruice of god maynteined in his dominion which when yt can not be by the meanes which god hath appointed ordinary yet for as much as his bond stil remayneth the next is that yt be doen as nerely vnto that order as may be vntil such tyme which owght to be with al possible speed as the standing and set order be established I say as nere as may be vnto the order prescribed of god least any should think that because that order can not be precisely kept he were by and by at liberty to set vp clean another order which should seem best to hym neglecting vpon occasion of the vnability of obseruing al the obseruation of those thinges which may be obserued For herein owght to be folowed the example of the godly learned Priest Abimelech which admitted Dauid and his company to the participation of the shew bread that was otherwise lawful for the Priests onely to eat of who althowgh to kepe charity which is the end of the law he brake so much of the ceremonye as the present necessity did require yet he ceased not therefore to be careful of the obseruation of the rest as appeareth in that he asked vuhether they had absteyned from the company of their vuiues Again yt is known that the Priestes and Prophetes haue extraordinarily meddled with ciuil affaires in confused tymes wil he therfore say that this power is ordinarily annexed vnto the Bishops office The cases I graunt are not altogither like yet to his question which supposeth that there is no cause why the Magistrate should not iudg of church matters aswel when there is a lawful ministery as when there is none this may serue for part of an answer Moreouer as in siknes there is another diet then in health so the church in her greuous diseas hath an other kinde of gouernment then that which is ordinary and vsed in a good constitution of her body which thing being said of the ruinous estate of the church is to be vnderstood also of her beginninges and as yt were infancy where ether there was no church before or hauing bene yt was rased from the foundations Yf this content him not let him answer me why the Prince must of necessity commit these matters to the ministery when it is learned and godly rather then when yt is otherwise if at the least he wil now at the last haue this the meaning of this broken english And of his answer to this question wil easely rise an answer to his But some sharper Aduersary might here haue obiected that Moses Dauid and Salomō being Princes in the moste florishing estate of the church did notwithstanding make church orders whereunto I answer that they did so partly for that they were not kinges onely and Princes but also Prophetes of god partly for that they had special and expres direction therto from god by the prophete whereby they did euen those thinges in the church which withowt such special reuelation was not lawful for the Priestes thē selues to haue doē And althowgh the truth of this answer be apparant yet that it may haue the more autority especially with the D. that tasteth nothing withowt this sauce he may vnderstand that it is M. Caluins answer of Moses and Dauid and that in this present cause now debated His other quarrel against this answer is that if a lawful ministery determining some thing vnlawful wil not be browght to that which is iust that then the Prince must haue ether that which they wil or no religiō As thowgh such a ministery were a lawful ministery that is obstinate or as if this obstinacy being general or for the moste part the state is not here ruinous so that the Prince may after due meanes assaied to bring them home procure that other be put in their places we herby appeareth that the remedy of this inconuenience which he saith he can not see was comprehended in the first part of the second difference betwene ours and the Papists iudgment But if for that a lawful ministery is subiect to error or doeth er in the decision of ecclesiastical causes he think that yt should not therefore handle these matters he may as wel take from them the preaching of the word considering that an error may as wel be found in the pulpit as in the Councel how 's And look what remedy the Magistrate hath against a ministery teaching falsly or inconueniently in the pulpit the same hath he against yt determining so in Councel And to make the partition wal betwene the papistes and vs in this question one cubite higher that those which wil not open their eys to see it may feel yt in not onely stumbling but running also their heades against yt I wil ad this muche that in ascribing vnto the ministery the decision of matters in controuersy and the making of church ceremonies our meaning is not vtterly to seclude the Magistrate For when experience teacheth vs that often tymes a simple man and as the prouerb saith the Gardener hath spoken to good purpose but especially when in the holy scripture the ould Testament and the nue and thirdly when in the ecclesiastical writers yt is found that there haue bene
sermon the tyme wil be longer then the age of some and infirmities of other some can ordinaryly wel bear whereūto also if another hower at the least be added for the celebration of the holy communion he may see that ether the preaching must be abbridged or not so due regard had of mens infirmityes Beside this there is to be considered the common infirmity wherby throwgh such continuance the powers of the minde standing so long bent are dulled and often also a moste dāgerous lothsomenes occasioned Against which our church as others haue doen should by a godly policy haue prouided where for this cause the whole Leiturgy or seruice is not ordinarily aboue an hower and a half Nether let any here obiect the papistes long seruice For beside that the rage of Idolaters hath alwayes bene more set on fire in the fals worship then the zeal of gods people in the tru yt owght to be considered that their prayer was more a lip-labour then any exercise of the minde and their churches rather stages to represent gay shewes vnto the eyes pleasant soundes vnto the eares and swete smels vnto the nose then any how 's for the children of god to meet in abowt any earnest work and also that they had respite betwene their Mattins and Mas. In the second reason he asketh whether a childe of ten year ould may minister the sacramentes c. no for sooth but yet as wel as he which can but barely read yf he haue the same calling which being that which I affirmed he is not able to moue with one word of reason After he supposeth of me as yf I had sayd that the book maynteineth an vnpreaching ministery because a childe can read yt adding that so I may say of the Bible because a childe can read yt also which is to open an vntruth For my reason is not because a childe of ten years can read yt but because yt requireth nothing to be doen by a Minister which such a childe can not doe And if the holy Bible which is far from yt should permit that one which can but read yt might be made a Minister or required no more of hym then that he should be able to read yt then I might wel say that the Bible maynteined an vnpreaching ministery Yf the order of the church doe not permit this then the charge lieth vpon the Bishops neckes which withowt any warrant haue so bouldly enterprised such a shameful act part of the next diuision is answered in this part the residue with the two next after yt in the former part of this book THE FOVRTH CHAPTER of the first part TO a third faut assigned in that the fruit that might othervuise be taken of the seruice is not receiued by reason that the minister readeth some in the hether some in the vpper part of the chauncel as far from the people as the vual vuil let hym goe he crieth owt of impudency corruption and falsifying for leauing owt these wordes except yt shal be othervuise determined by the Ordinary of the place Alas how should I be free or what armour may be giuen me against these vntrue accusations which could not escape the here For in the very next diuisiō I expresly mention this exception which he hath mangled and cut of from this diuision belike to the end there might be place to this surmise But vnto the reasons that yt renueth the fashion of the leuitical Priest vuhich vuithdrvu hym self from the people to talk vuith god alone Also that yf it be for the most edification that some part of the seruice should be said in the body of the church that then yt is not so vuhē other some is said in the nether some in the further end of the chauncel and other some in the further end of the same church Agayn that yf yt be expedient that he should haue his face tovuards the people in reading of some yt is vnmeet to haue his bakturned to them in other some last of al to the vndecency in trudging from place to place I say to al these reasons he answereth nothing worth the naming But the sum of his defence is that the Bishop hath power to order yt to the moste edification wherein how vnlawful yt is that he alone should haue the order hereof is before declared and how daungerous it is let the practis in this point be iudg For I am assuredly perswaded that the tenth church in England hath not al the seruice said in that place where the whole church may best hear yt And withal note as I said what a shameful disorder is committed in a matter so easely remedied The place of S. Luke is an vnchāgeable rule to teach that al that which is doen in the church owght to be doen where it may be best heard for which cause I alledged yt his cauil of the place of the font said of me to be at the church dore in steed that I should haue said ouer against the church door is vnworthy the answer especially cōsidering that I spake more fauorably for the book thē he which by this answer sendeth the minister for baptim beneath the church door And so also I leau to the iudgmēt of the reader what was the end of him that penned the book in this behalf seing he could hardly be ignorant that the places vsed customably in Popery were not the aptest for the vnderstanding of the hearers And this boeth separatiō of the Minister by Chauncel as Monckish as also the often shifting of the Ministers place as a thīg very absurd M. Bucer boeth generally in al places and particulerly in our church doeth cōdemn Ambrose hath bene answered as for M. Caluin he sheweth that althowgh our slaknes to beleue be euil which is cause that one sweareth yet that the oth is lawful considering that the vse of many thinges is pure vuhich proceed of an euil beginning whereby the reader may see how shamefully he would abuse hym for the slaknes of beleuīg which is the original of the oth can neuer be pure and the lawful oth occasioned hereon can neuer be but pure So that where M. Caluin referreth the pure vse vnto a thing diuers from the corrupt beginning and simply good the Ans referreth yt to the corcorrupt beginning it self his cauil of my vntrue dealing for changing his word good into not euil is vnworthy any answer THE SECOND PART OF this Tractate THE FIRST CHAPTER VVHEREOF being of holy daies is deuided into tvuo partes THE FIRST PART OF THE FIrst chapter of the ceremony of the Easter Natiuity and Vuhitson holy dayes TTe Treatise of the general fautes being ended I come to the particuler where I pas the eight first diuisions as those which haue no matter ether worth or requiring answer Before I come to the ninth which is of the prayers I wil dispatch the treatise of the holy dayes as it lieth page 538 of
they may be otherwise quieted when they be tawght not to think that the working of assurance in their heartes is so tyed vnto the sacrameÌ„tes that withowt them the lord nether wil nor can comfort them but rather to consider that euen as when the Iues were depriued of the sacrament of the Sanctuary the lord promised that he hym self would be for a Sanctuary vnto them and supply the want thereof euen so he wil not be wanting vnto them which hauing a desire to be partakers of yt can not so conueniently be receiued thereunto putting them also in remembrance of the horrible abominations of priuate mas which came first in by occasion of these priuate communions as they are called Here let the reader take heed of an error which the D. hath let fal that we haue remission of synnes by communication vnto this Sacrament whereas remission of synnes receiued by faith alone and sealed vp in baptim must be had before we come to the Communion To the Councel vuhich forbiddeth the communion in priuate hovuses he answereth that yt meaneth vsually for that the vse was such in some places which is said withowt al proof or likelihood of truth whereby for a shift he sticketh not to slaunder whole auncient churches notwithstanding that he pretendeth sometyme such reuerence to one onely man as the reader before hath seen Then he opposeth the Nicen Councel which is that I preuented in the 2 diuision and in the fift shewed to make against hym After folow M. Bucers and Martyrs notes which if they weâ—e theirs and had bene for further assurance thereof tawght by them to look vpon the Son yet being the testimonies of men how learned and godly soeuer they are subiect to examination I wil not deny but they might be of that iudgment considering that I see M. Caluin to haue bene of the same which I therefore let the reader vnderstand that he may be diligenter in the examination of the reasons against yt and not to descend into our iudgment onles he be compelled by the matter yt self Althowgh yt is not ours alone but as he hath heard of others yea of diuers reformed churches where this is not admitted putting hym also in minde of boeth M. Caluins and Martyrs iudgmentes in the matter of Baptim that yt owght not to be in a priuate how 's nor withowt a sermon desiring hym further to consider whether certein reasons making against the one doe not strike vpon the other And in deed as in my iudgment ys is vnmeet to administer ether of the sacramentes in priuate howses so that is yet les tollerable in the holy supper which hath a special mark and representation of brotherly communion more then Baptim Here I pas by as a thing political rather then perteining to conscience the skare that may come by these priuate communions when the siknes as often commeth to pas is contagious As for that of Musculus yt is idle seing his approbation of yt is not made to appear and no man denieth but they that vsed yt in tymes past did yt for a good end THE FOVRTH CHAPTER OF this Tractate tovuching the ceremonies in Baptim pag. 607 of the D. book NOw follow the corruptioÌ„s in the sacrameÌ„ts apart and first of those in Baptim where in mayntenaÌ„ce of the questions ministred to young infantes which can not answer he would make vs beleue that the catholik writers as yt were the Gouldsmithes were in dout whether the Denis which he browght were good money or no whereas the contrariety in opinions ys betwene the Papistes and Protestantes His euidence to proue hym legitimat because these bookes be very auncient implieth that a number of horrible abuses are as auncient And therefore in sted of saying some falshood might be thrust in he should haue said some truth might be thrust in to giue credit to the rest considering that the purenes of the tong which he wrote in being set apart there are few thinges worthy ether of S. Pauls Scholer or of the Bishop of AtheÌ„s His defence by the Bishop of Sarisbury is answered The not answering also of my reply against Denis vnder pretence of a flout is before noted To the reasons against Augustines kinde of speaking he can answer nothing onely he mispendeth the tyme in prouing that baptim is the seal of faith which none denieth but that yt is called faith which he owght to haue proued he could not finde a word For that also that Augustin maketh for the interrogatories ministred to infantes beside strong affirmations he can bring nothing As for that alledged by me yt is most manifest in another place where Augustin sheweth yt to haue bene the vse that the minister asked of the parentes vuhether the childe beleued they ansvuering that yt did so that althowgh this were an abuse yet yt is much different from the maner which we haue receyued from the papistes and more simple then yt In the next diuision he answereth nothing to the purpose nor in the next to yt sauing onely a vayn cauil for whereas I meant the true faith he flyeth to that of Simon Magus which was counterfait In the next where yt was alledged that al ovught to be doen simply and playnly in the church he can answer nothing onely yt may serue for a colorable cavil that as the book wil haue the infantes promise by the godfathers so saith he the Adm. wil haue infantes desire by their parentes For albeit the Adm. wordes might haue bene warelier set yet it is but a hauking after syllables when their meaning is playn that there owght to be no such strange and vnwonted kinde of speaches in the common seruice I pas by Musculus autority flat far vs but M. Bucers wherewith the D. often presseth vs so sore must not be forgotteÌ„ which doeth precisely finde faut with our seruice book herein His second chapter requireth no answer For as for his exception that we alow of godfathers deuised by the Pope yt is answered beside that yt was not by his own account deuised by a Bishop of Rome which was Antichrist The contrariety with my self in that page 18 I denying that the vsage of a thing by the whole church can giue yt such autority as that yt may not be abrogated yet here alow of godfathers as of an indifferent ceremony considering that the churches haue generally receiued yt is vnworthy of answer For there is great difference in allowing the churchis autority absolutely or withowt condition and in reuerencing her autority in an indifferent matter in yt self and towching the vse profitable when yt is vsed accordingly so that a blinde man might see how I might iustly improue the first and approue the last In the there first diuisions of his second chapter pag. 614 there is no answer worthy the reply Vuhere he would prefer crossing before milk in baptim he doeth yt contrary to Tertullians autority
But to that alledged that yt hath no ground in scripture he answereth nothing wherein notwithstanding the question consisteth That alledged of the impositiō of hādes vntruly fathered of the Apostles he wil haue me proue whereas yt being affirmed of hym owght to haue bene shewed by hym That yt was not in Iustins tyme may appear in that he describing the liturgy of the churches in his tyme maketh no mention of yt That yt was no tradition of the Apostles left as Ierome al his proof in this behalf affirmeth hath bene before declared Hys exception of the abuse in laying on of handes in ordeyning Ministers against that I browght that this ceremony confirmed an opinion conceyued that yt is a sacrament is idle For that being the ordinance of god may not for any abuse be taken away but this being not althowgh yt were in yt self indifferent for the offence sake owght to be disanulled Hether appertayneth that otherwhere of M. Caluins alowance hereof where the reason I opposed owt of hym that the giftes by laying on of handes ceasing yt also ovught to ceas is vnanswered I graunt he speaketh against the popish imposition of handes but withal in this point he speaketh against ours which pretendeth as doeth theirs that the holy gost is giuen by this imposition of handes whereof there is no promise And therefore his defence that yt is giuen by prayer ys not sufficient considering that the book saith by putting on of hādes and prayers so that althowgh M. Caluin should like of laying on of hādes yet he must needes mislike of ours which presupposeth that the holy gost is giuen by the bishops laying on of handes His answer to the autority of so many reformed churches is fond For that they meant to disalow cōfirmation simply and not the popish onely may appear in that they purged not the popish imposition of handes but vtterly cast yt away And when they say they can vuant yt vuithovut damage they signify that in the best sort yt is vnprofitable To that alledged of the popish opinion that yt is better then baptim confirmed in that that our Bishop onely may confirm vuhere euery Minister may baptiz he answereth owt of Ierom and Bucer that yt is meet yt should be doen by the Bishop which I graunt yf yt were meet at al. But that the Bishop which Ierome and Bucer alow be not lord Bishops but simple Pastors of one onely church or not of the twentith part whereof our Bishops are hath bene before declared The reason of the inconuenience of bringing the children half a score miles vuith charges for that vuhich if yt vuere needful might be doen by the Pastor at home he answereth by calling yt chiledish such is the compassion he hath of the peoples trauail and especially of the necessity of the poor which are compelled thus beside extraordinary charges to lese two or three dayes work That he thincketh yt not worthy once to be considered belike is because they goe not vppon his legges nor spend of his purs There resteth the churching of wemen where this title implying a banishment from the church is defended b◠the common peoples vsage of Christmas a popish name as thowgh this error of the people owght to haue bene confirmed by the book and not rather corrected he might aswel answer that the drawer of the book might haue called the holy Communiō a mas because the ignorāt sort doe so But vnto this answer hath bene further replyed before Of two other pointes in that diuision he talketh but answereth not the next requireth no answer the next hath bene answered the next to yt requireth none To excuse his rashnes in permitting the vail which is a church ceremony to wemens discretion he saith ▪ yt is rather ciuil the vntruth whereof is manifest yt being doen of superstition and opinion that yt owght to be so not for succour against the ayer as he pretendeth beside that in saying rather ciuil he priuily confesseth that there is some part of yt ecclesiastical THE FIFT CHAPTER OF CEREmonies abovut the holy communion in the residu of the D. xv Tractate IN eleuen diuisions whereof to diuers reasons of the great inconuenience of ministring yt with wafer kakes and in kneeling there is nothing alledged worth the rehersal considering that yt hath bene shewed that the churchis power in thinges indifferent is not absolute to doe what she thincketh good but for the moste edifiyng in regard of the persōs and other circumstances and considering that against that we would haue the sitting of our Sa. Christ called again for remedy of the superstition yea idolatry committed of some by kneeling his instans of celebrating the communion in the night is insufficient For that was vpon a particuler occasion which is not in our church nor hath no place in the ceremonies in controuersy seing that for the causes assigned of me the celebrating of yt in the night was for that tyme necessary which is also answer to that of vnleauened bread vsed at the same tyme whereunto he can answer nothing Lastly considering that to shew the inconueniences and humbly to desire redres herein in such sort as for the abuses we doe not withdraw our selues from the holy communion is not as he slaunderously accuseth to make any tumult Therefore not to spend tyme in confutation of his bare sayinges the contrary of certeyn whereof are to be seen as in a playn matter I commit these vnto the iudgment of the reader Onely let hym obserue that M. Bucer doeth improue the kneeling at the communion and in one word al the gestures which the Papistes vsed in this imitation of the supper of the lord For that in the 17 diuision towching this whether yt be meeter to say take ye or take thow to the reason of the example of our Sauiour Christ he can not answer To the reason taken of the maner of preaching he saith that exhortation giuen in the second person singuler moueth moste which is not to the point of the question For yt is not debated here whether the Minister should speak to al at once by thow or by ye but whether yt is meeter that yt should be once onely spoken to al that communicate at one table or rehersed according to the number of persons that communicate Beside that a figuratiue speach as this is when by the word thovu are noted a great number is more fit for preaching and prophetical writing then for the ordinary seruice which owght to be moste simple I confes some difference of the exhibiting of the benefites of Christ in the sacramentes and in the word but how that difference should cause vs to change the form vsed by our Sau. Christ which knowing that difference best did notwithstanding at once speak to al at the table with hym I see not nor he sheweth not nor I am assured can not the rest in this chapter requireth no answer
hal to the kytchin yow vse sometyme to promote hym then al the other supposed Archbishopes did wear the same which is as far from Eusebius minde as the other So your conclusion that if some of the Apostles had a seueral apparel therefore al the ministers may haue such a note of their ministery is to bad yt rather argueth the clean contrary that for so much as the Apostles leauing nothing vndoen which might make for the furtherance of their ministery differed amongest them selues in the form of apparel one wearing a leaf of his head the rest wearing no such thing that therefore yt pertayneth not to the furtherance of the ministery that al should be enioyned to wear one form of apparel The reason which I browght to proue that Peter had no special apparel whereby he could be discerned to be one of the twelue he vtterly dissembleth His two last shiftes against yt are fond escapes For the persecuting Iues would nether haue spared candle for remedy of the darknes in the night nor haue stood gessing and suspecting when as they might haue had a sufficient and a certein mark in his apparel to know hym by In his first exception that it may be that he put of his vppermost garment he bewrayeth his to great bouldnes by running in the maz of his own head withowt any thred of the word of god to bring hym owt For when the Euangelist maketh expres mention of one of their infirmities that to saue hym self cast away his vpper garment he would if there had bene any such thing haue doen the same of Peter In his answer of our Sau. Christs garment for one faut he maketh two For he saith that S. Iohn would not haue made mention of yt vnles yt had bene a seueral apparel which is a shameful saying considering that yt is manifest that he noteth yt to haue had no seam to shew the occasion that the souldiars toke of casting lottes for yt Vuhereby boeth Dauids prophesy of hym was fulfilled and he the better knowen to be the same of whome the Prophet spake Again this garment wherein the Answ wil haue the mark of our Sauiour Christs ministery was his coat and vnder-garment and therefore not so fit to shew forth his ministery as he passed by the streates considering that yt was hidden by his cloke or mantel which he wore vpon yt And if our Sauiour Christ had the note of his ministery in his coat then althowgh S. Peter as he deuineth had put of his vpper yet they might haue knowen hym by his vnder garment which was also a proper note of his ministery Vnles he wil peraduenture say that our Sauiour Christ wear the mark of his ministery vpon his coat and S. Peter his vpon his cloke which in this bouldnes he is entred into peraduenture he wil not stik to doe Last of al this iudgmēt of our Sau. Christs seueral apparel like vnto Iohn Baptists is contrary to the Euangelistes which shew that he in his owtward faschion of lyfe toke another way then S. Iohn Baptist namely for that where S. Iohn chose a path throwgh which he separated hym self from the ordinary and accustomable trade of other men our Sau. Christ folowed the common and high way that other went which being expresly mentioned of his diet must by the same reason be vnderstood of his apparel considering that that was one of the two pointes wherein S. Iohn sowght a singularity The contrariety with my self is before answered the next diuision I pas by Vuhether the Magistrate may commād a seueral apparel is another questiō frō this vuhether he may cōmand the popish considering that he that getteth the first hath not therefore won the second whereunto the D. beside wordes partly idle of genus taken vniuersaliter partly boeth idle and fond of Totum in modo c answereth not But now in sted of his former affirmation which was that the Magistrate may appoint a seueral apparel he hath set down that he may appoint any kinde of apparel As yf these two to appoint an apparel and to appoint any apparel were al one In which dealing let yt be obserued that where in his first affirmation he would haue fayn changed his question of the popish apparel for a better now to defend his wandring he hath for a cause which was not good before gotten one which is a great deal wors the norishing whereof wil stand hym in more then did the other So that in sted of setting on a peece he hath here made the rent a great deal bigger For if the Magistrate may lawfully command the Ministers any kinde of apparel he may commād them to wear purple colored garmentes which being comely for c youth should not be so for the Minister that beareth the person of an ancyent Likewise he might command them to wear as Hippodamas did furred clothes boeth vuinter and sommer also a Souldiars weed which M. Caluin of whom he seeketh fauor in this cause e affirmeth to be against common sens how much more yf he should command them to wear a womans habite Yf yow except that these thinges be not comely nether is that required for any thing that I can see by your defence but onely that he propound yt as a thing for comelynes and orders sake withowt any conscience of religion Althowgh to answer that these thinges are vncomely and vnorderly and that the surplice and cope c are comely and orderly is onely a bare demaund of that in question Beside that when any of these kindes of apparel should be established by the superior powers as orderly and comely yow teach vs that yt belongeth not vnto vs which are priuate to iudg whether yt be otherwise but to them alone To that I said that in the appointing of any seueral apparel vnto the Ministers there is some iniury doen to thē he maketh a noyse as yf Hannibal vuere at the city gates but if the prouerb be true that a deep vuater is cōmonly stil there is like to be no great deapth of reason or knowledg to mayntein that with which is born owt with such owtcries Vuhatsoeuer it be let vs sound yt His first answer is that being chosen by the church the Magistrate can not know what kinde of minister euery parish hath euen as wel as when he is chosen by the Bishop for the Prince is agreed to haue the confirmation and allowance of the election by the church aswel as of his Althowgh this is no answer to my reasō which was that the Magistrate may vuel alovu of hym as for one vuhich knovueth vuhat apparel is meet for his estate vuhom he alovueth as an able man to gouern his people betvuene god and them so that my reason is of his alovuance and his answer is of his knowledg And if withowt any particular knowledg of hym he may alow of hym as of a fit Minister he may withowt the same
pag. 33. Item 1. Cor. 12 28. pag. 37 38. Item Roman 12 8. page 38 39. Lastly Math. 18 17. page 51 52 53. That there be church matters to be doen in the gouernment of the church which the Pastor is not able do doe of hym self 49. That the Eldership beginning as sone as there is mention of any assembly of the visible church standing of diuers families was boeth before and vnder the law 40 41 â–ª That the Apostle wil haue yt continued vnto the worlds end 54. whether refer that obiected of widowes and wine pag. 54 55 also of the blud strangled and wasshing of feet pag. 62. Likewise that the supposed danger of altering the estate of the church gouernment caÌ„ here haue no place pag. 71. That the cheif offices of charity can not be exercised withowt yt 51 52 53. That the supposed impossibility of getting able men to exercise this charge can not hynder the restoring of this order 61 62 63 64. That yt is confirmed by the vse and custome of the elder churches 41 42. Also that degenerating yt reteined notwithstanding certain markes whereby we might come to the knowledg of yt partly open in coÌ„demning the breach of this order 42 correcting their error 43 complaining of the want of yt 44 partly secret whilest they confessed that the administration of the word and Sacramentes belonged not vnto the Elder but by grace and permission of the Bishop 43 44. That it is confirmed by the iudgment of the godly writers boeth auncient as Tertullian 41 Cyprian 42 Ignatius 45 Ambrose 44 68 Ierome 68 and of our age as Bucer 39 68 Caluin 35 41 Martyr 46 Beza 72. That yt owght to be aswel in a kingdome as in smale common wealthes 58 59. That yf this church gouernment were dangerous to common wealthes yt were more dangerous to smale coÌ„mon wealthes then vnto kingdomes 59 60. Aswel vnder a Christian as vnder an vnchristian Magistrate pag. 49 c. because The common wealthes must be framed vnto the church and not contrary wise p. 64 65. The Magistrate can not displace that the lord hath placed p. 50. Otherwise yt should be wors with the church vnder a Christian then vnder an vnchristian Prince 49 50. The punishing of one faut by two iurisditions can not hinder this 70 71. The Elders iontly with the Pastor take not so much vpon them as the Bishop whome the Magistrate doeth permit 51. That Princes owght no more to change the church gouernment then our Sa. Christ and his Apostles changed the form of the common wealth gouernment 50. There is more vse and commoditie of the Eldership vnder a Christian then vnder an vnchristian Magistrate 55 56 57 58 60 61. That yt was vsed vnder Constantine a Christian Prince p. 67. Aswel in vplandish townes as in great Cities page 44. c because The Apostles did institute yt church by church 45. That there is the same vse of yt here aswel as there 45 46 47. The gospel whereof the discipline is a part went owt of Ierusalem into vplandish townes aswel as into cyties 25. S. Paul inioyning this order vnto Timothe instructed hym aswel of the gouernment of the churches in the countrey as in the Citie 45. The Bishop being shewed to belong vnto the churches in the countrey aswel as vnto those in the citie the Eldership which is giuen for his assistance must doe the same 45. The Pastor there can not doe al by hym self alone 49. Otherwise there should be an inaequalite browght in amongest the churches which the D. hym self misliketh 45. The Apostles studying to conform the churches one to an other in smaler matters did yt muche more in this 45. The vse of the elder churches was suche 46 47. Of the reformation of the prebendes and Canons c. which are a part of the ruines of this Eldership and of the applying of their liuings to the erecting of Colledges 73 74 75 76. The ninth Tractate pag. 77. Of excommunication which is a separatioÌ„ from the coÌ„pany of the visible church and not of the excommunication owt of heauen onely Excomunication belongeth to the church because Our Sa. Christ instituted yt to be doen by the church pag. 78 79. whether refer that obiected owt of math 16. and Iohn 20 82 83. whereby notwithstanding the D. cause falleth 83. The Apostles and the holy writers of the scripture communicate the same power with the church 79 81 82. whether refer that supposed of S. Pauls sole excommunicating of the incestuous Corinth 80 likewise of Alexander 83 84 also of Titus auoiding an heretike 84. further that the church is ioyned with the Bishop as a doer not as a looker on or witnes onely 81. The holy gost chideth the church for that yt vsed not this power 82. That Princes subiection vnto this discipline of the church hindereth not any more the excominunication by the church then by the Bishop 92 93 94. The church hath power to absolue 80. Yt belonged vnto the church of Israel to rid their howses of leuen at the Pasover 79 80. Yt was doen by the elder churches and with approbation of their Doctors in Tertullians tyme 87 in Cyprians 87 88 89 90 Likewise in Ieromes and Augustins times 90 91 confirmed by the godly learned of our tyme M. Zwinglius 92. Caluin 90 91. Martyr 92. Not therefore to the Bishop alone especially Vuhen by his sole excommunication he hath prophaned the glory of god browght the church to a miserable servitude not to hym self alone but to his seruantes also 95 96. broken in to the Magistrats office 94. pilled the princis subiectes 95 96. Vuhen he may not pas smaller matters in the church by hym self alone 77. Vuhen for his sole excoÌ„munication there is not so muche as one approued example or writer to be shewed 85 86 89 c. some of the papistes them selues being ashamed of this sole autoritie of the Bishop 77. Tractate the tenth page 99. The Deacons office standeth in the care for the poor and not in the administration of the word and baptim because This office is so instituted Rom. 12 8 99 100 101. The Apostle deuiding the ministeries of the word maketh no mention of the Deacon 102. Hether refer the exceptions of Phillip 103 104. and Steven 106 107. The Apostle describing the qualities of the DeacoÌ„ maketh no mention of his â—ptnes to teach 102. Yf yt were a step to the ministery as yt is not 108 thereof foloweth that yt is not the ministery 107. Yt is an opposite member which togither with the ministery of the word helpeth to deuide one whole 101. In doeing boeth he should haue need of greater giftes then the Apostles or the pastor 101 102. whether refer that the Apostles and other indued with extraordinary giftes labored their sermons 101 102. By the same reason they are barred from the administration of the supper they owght to be likewise from that of baptim 104 105. The iudgment of the