no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 âhe may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
gaue it him Hart. They gaue it him at least by their consent iudgement For they would haue reproued it when they heard it read in the supplications if they had not allowed of it Rainoldes Say you so what thinke you then of the CouÌcell of Lateran where the Pope is tolde and that in a Sermon that to him is giuen all power in heauen and in earth yea which is more that he hath all power aboue all powers both of heauen and of earth Did the Councell allow of these blasphemous spéeches They did not reproue them Hart. But the Councell of Chalcedon did offer themselues the title of vniuersall Patriarke to Pope Leo as S. Gregorie writeth they did not only heare it giuen him by others Rainoldes S. Gregorie affirmeth it to be a new a proud a pompous a profane a rash peruerse foolish abominable wicked and superstitious title a name of singularitie of arrogancie of blasphemie The Councell of Chalcedon was a companie of six hundred Bishops and thirtie sound in religion and zealous of the glorie of God You must pardon me if I discredit rather the word of one Gregorie then thinke that sixe hundred and thirtie such Bishops did offer to commit so great iniquitie and folie For neither is there any proofe of that offer in any part of the Councell which is wholy extant and that which made Gregorie to misreport the Bishop of Constantinople might induce him likewise to misreport these Bishops too Wherein his affection may be the more suspected because he sayth farther that it was offered to his predecessors not only by the Councel but also by the Fathers following The names it is likely of these Fathers following should haue bene foorth comming if they had bene at hand the matter being so important Howbeit if they and the Councell both had not only offered it but giuen it also yet might they haue giuen it in respect of lesser preeminence then the Papacie Which it must needes be the Councell should haue done for else they had contraried their owne decrées and actions And the Pope himself gaue it to the Patriarke of Constantinople as a title of honour I trow and not of power Wherefore the first title put vpon the Fathers of the Councell of Chalcedon inferreth not the Popes supremacie Much lesse doth the next alleaged out of Cyprian For although Cornelius a godly Bishop of Rome be there named Bishop of the Catholike Church yet is he so named not as the word Catholike signiââeth vniuersall but as it signifâeth right beleeuing holding the Catholike faith Wherefore it maketh no more for his supremacie then for Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria and other Catholike Bishops who all are named Bishops of the Catholike Church Hart. A particular Church may be called Catholike in respect of the Catholike faith which it professeth And so was Athanasius Bishop of the Catholike Church of Alexandria Rainoldes And Cornelius Bishop of the Catholike church of Rome Hart. Nay he was Bishop of the Catholike Church of the whole world not of the citie of Rome onely For it followeth in the same place that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholike Church Rainoldes That is in the Catholike Church of the citie of Rome For Cornelius himselfe in whose epistle that is written sayth other where entreating of the same matter that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholike Church wherein there are sixe and fourtie Elders and seuen Deacons Now in a Synode which then was held at Rome there were aboue threescore Elders and Deacons how many huÌdred more through the whole world Wherefore sith six and fourtie Elders and seuen Deacons were not all the Elders and Deacons of the world but of the citie of Rome it followeth that the Catholike Church wherein he saith there ought to be one Bishop was the Catholike Church of the citie of Rome not of the whole world And that this was meant in that of Cornelius it is very plaine by the occasion of his speéche as also by the canon of the Councell of Nice made on that occasion For the Church being troubled at that time with the schisme and heresie of Nouatus the Nouatians refusing the communion of the Catholikes ordeined new Bishops for their hereticall synagogues and schismaticall conuenticles Whereby it came to passe that in one citie there were two Bishops a Catholike and an heretike as in Rome Cornelius and Nouatianus in Carthage Cyprian and Fortunatus The Catholikes therefore communicating in faith and loue with Cornelius called him Bishop of the Catholike Church condemning the Nouatians as heretikes and schismatikes with their Bishop Nouatianus And as they sayd farther that there ought to be one Bishop in a Catholike Church according to the ancient order as I shewed so was it decréed by the Nicen Councell touching the Nouatians who became Catholikes that if a Bishop of theirs were conuerted the Catholike Church hauing a Bishop he should not enioy a Bishops roome but an Elders least that there shoulde be two Bishops in a citie Wherefore the Bishoprick of the Catholike Church in the time of Cornelius was the charge that euerie Catholike Bishop had Neyther meant they more who sayd that there ought to bee but one Bishop in a Catholike Church then S. Chrysostome did saying to Sisinius Bishop of the Nouatians in Constantinople A citie may not haue two Bishops Hart. But S. Cyprian writeth that neither heresies nor schismes haue sproong of any other fountaine then of this that the Priest of God is not obeyed and that one Priest for the time in the Church and one iudge for the tyme in steede of Christ is not regarded To whom if the whole brotherhoode would be obedient according to Gods teachings then no man would make any thing adoe agaynst the company of Priests Wherein by one Priest he meaneth one Bishop and by one Bishop Cornelius the Pope to whom he writeth those wordes So that he confesseth the Pope to bée the Bishop of the whole Churche and teacheth men to thinke of him as one iudge for the tyme in Christes steede Rainoldes You erre still in the same point The Church wherein Cyprian requireth obedience vnto one Bishop and iudge in Christs steed is the particular Church of euery citie not the vniuersall For he speaketh it on occasion of iniurie offered to himselfe by the Nouatians in Carthage who there had ordeined a new Bishop against him as their fellowes did in Rome against Cornelius And as the words before and after do shew that he meaneth it of all Catholike Bishops ech in his owne charge so the whole discourse circumstances argue that he applieth it to himselfe not to Cornelius Chiefly that of a Bishop approued to his people in the Bishoprick foure yeares Which can by no meanes agree to Cornelius who
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâdia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌdemned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâl holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian
the Emperour did talke at Rome with Marcellinus and brought him to idolatrie Whereas Diocletian was then at Nicomedia about a thousand myles off Besides that Diocletians warre agaynst the Persians was ended certaine yeares before the time of that Councell Yet the Councell sayth that Diocletian being in that warre heard of it There is an other Councell of the same stampe holden vnder Pope Siluester at Rome about the time that Constantine was clensed of his leprosâe that is to say neuer Amongst the canons whereof those which begin with Nemo enim there is one Nemo enim to that effect that yours of Sinuessa But what the true Bishops of the primitiue church thought of iudging him they shewed by their iudgement of his fellow at Antioche Paulus Samosatenus whom the Bishops and Elders of his own prouince did excommunicate and depose agaynst your Councels lye that No man euer iudged his bishop Wherefore to returne to the primitiue Churches ordinances and rules from these deuises Papall of Councels neuer holden the first generall Councell assembled at Nice did keepe the Pope vnder in his former state For they ordeined that Bishops should be made by Bishops of their own prouince requiring no consent of his therevnto neither did they giue the hearing and determining of causes vnto him but vnto the Bishops of the prouince too commaunding the ancient canon to be kept that none should receiue them to the communion who were excommunicated and condemned by others Hart. True if they were iustly condemned and excommunicate But if their owne Bishop had dealt vniustly with them vpon some displeasure and remoued them from the communion wrongfully which you cannot denie but that he might do then reason requireth that they should haue remedie Now the remedie thereof is by appeale to the Pope Rainoldes This remedie was deuised by new Physicians that lacked worke it increaseth diseases The Nicen Physicians foreséeing the danger prouided an other and better remedy for them Hart. Better what is that Rainoldes The cause to be heard in a Synode of Bishops so to be decided by their common iudgement For let it be examined say they whether the Bishop haue excommunicated them vpon a way wardnesse or grudge or too much rigour Whereof that there may bee due examination we haue thought good that in euery prouince two synods should be kept yerely to the intent that in common all Bishops of the prouince being gathered together such thinges may be examined And so whosoeuer shall be found in fault and to haue bene dealt with iustly by the Bishop lett them bee holden of all for excommunicate till it shall seeme good to the Synode of Bishops to giue more gentle sentence of them Hart. I grant the Councell of Nice doth bring matters first from the Bishop to the Synode But if the Synode also doe giue vniust sentence then is the Pope left for the last refuge Rainoldes The Councell meant not so but that the last refuge should be the Synode still For they doe not say till it shall seeme good to the Bishop of Rome but to the Synode of Bishops to geue more gentle sentence of them Yea euen the particular honour and preeminence of his which they mention is a plaine token that they dreamed not of such a generall power For it followeth straight in the next canon Let old customes be kept they that are in Egypt and Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the preeminence of all these because such is the custome of the Bishop of Rome too Likewise also in Antioche and in other prouinces let the Churches enioy their dignities and prerogatiues Which wordes of the Councell grounding on the custome of the Bishop of Rome that as he had preeminence of all the Bishops about him so Alexandria and Antioche should haue of all about theÌ and likewise other churches as the Metropolitan ech in their owne prouinces doe shew that the Pope neither had preeminence of all through the world before the Nicen Councell nor ought to haue greater preeminence by their iudgement then he before time had Hart. Nay the Councell did not limit the preeminence and power of the Church of Rome by those wordes but they followed rather it as a paterne in aduancing others For the Nicen Councell sayth Nicolas the first durst not make any decree of that Church as knowing that nothing could be giuen her aboue her desert yea that she had al things by the grant of Christ. And if the Councels canons bee diligently marked you shall find doubtlesse that they gaue no increase to the church of Rome but rather tooke example of the forme therof for that which they would geue to the church of Alexandria Rainoldes Pope Nicolas endeuoring to proue his supremacie by recordes of Councels some impudently forged as the Councell of Sinuessa some lewdly misexpounded as the Councell of Chalcedon not knowing what to say well of the Councel of Nice doth shape this answere to it for lack of a better But as a dronken man that hath a giddie head enteÌding to go one way sometimes doth reele an other so fareth it with him For in saying that they tooke example of the forme of the Churche of Rome for that which they would giue to the Church of Alexandria he granteth that as the Bishop of Alexandria had but the preeminence of all thereabout no more had the Bishop of Rome And séeing that example is allowed therein and made a paterne of the rest it followeth that the Councell thereby did decrée that the Bishop of Rome should kéepe within those limits Which to be the purport of that Nicen canon not onely singular autors Rufinus and Cusanus but a generall Councell also hath declared In déede the very sticking of your own men in it like byrdes in the lyme may shew that in the sight of sense and common reason it maketh directly against the Popes supremacie For Gratian hauing set it downe as he found it Let the old custome hold in Egypt Libya and Pentapolis that the bishop of Alexandria haue rule of all these because the Bishop of Rome too hath the like custome the glose on him expoundeth it lyke that is like in some things because they both depose Bishops or say the Bishop of Rome that is of CoÌstaÌtinople Of which expositions the former being dangerous that any may depose Bishops beside the Pope a glose vpon that glose alloweth the later of Constantinople sayth it is the better in the iudgement of Hue. But Hue was deceaued For though Constantinople were called new Rome within a few yeares after yet nether was it called Rome nor Constantinople at the time that the canon wherof we speake was made Carranza therfore helpeth it with an old edition shewed him by a Cardinal which in stéede of these words the Bishop of Rome had
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in âre against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâus Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiââhe Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in ãâã ââllify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
THE SVMME OF THE CONFERENCE BETWENE IOHN RAINOLDES AND IOHN HART TOVCHING THE HEAD AND THE FAITH OF THE CHVRCH Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures the ministerie of the Church the function of Priesthood the sacrifice of the Masse with other controuersies of religion but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouerment opened in the branches of Christes supreme soueraintie of Peters pretended the Popes vsurped the Princes lawfull Supremacie Penned by Iohn Rainoldes according to the notes set downe in writing by them both perused by Iohn Hart and after things supplied altered as he thought good allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them Whereto is annexed a Treatise intitled SIX CONCLVSIONS TOVCHING THE HOLIE SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH writen by Iohn Rainoldes With a defense of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein 1. Ioh. 4.1 Deerely beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they be of God for many false Prophets are gone out into the world Londini impensis Geor. Bishop 1584 TO THE RIGHT Honorable the Lord Robert Dudley Earle of Leicester one of her Maiesties priuie Councell and Chauncellour of the Vniuersitie of Oxford grace and peace be multiplied THe beginning of Schooles and Vniuersities right Honorable in the Church of God doth shew that they were planted to bee nurseries of Prophets who being instructed in the truth of his word might deliuer it to men and lighten as starres the darkenesse of the world with the beames of it But it hath come to passe by deuises of the dragon whose taile drew the third part of the starres of heauen cast them to the earth that they haue bene turned into seminaries of false Prophets to maintaine errours and the power of darkenesse against the light and truth of Christ. The primitiue Church had experience hereof in them of the Synagogue of Libertines and Cyrenians who disputed with Steuen A lesson for the faithfull in the ages to folow that they should not thinke it strange or be dismayed if Schooles Vniuersities of men professing wisedome were possessed of folie and sought to peruert the straight wayes of the Lord. The consideration whereof as it was needefull for our predecessours when Rabbines of the Iewes Philosophers of the HeatheÌs Sorbonists amoÌg Christians being seduced themselues seduced others so haue the Seminaries of our English students erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes made it needeful also for vs at this day The more how much the nerer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines Cyrenians For as they defended the Iewish opinions receiued by tradition from their Fathers so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions As they did pretend the care of religion of Moses and God the law the Temple so do the Seminaries of the Catholike faith the Scriptures and the Church As the meanes they vsed were sclanders of Steuen that he spake blasphemous wordes against the holy place and the law so do the Seminaries charge vs with reuolting from the holy Church and corrupting the Scriptures I am not worthie to be compared with the least of the seruants of God who liued at that time in which he powred the giftes of his holy spirit from heauen so aboundantly Howbeit as it pleased him to rayse Steuen to dispute with some of the Iewish Synagogue so hath he vouchsafed me of this fauour that I should be called to conferre with certaine of the Popish Seminaries Of whom one contented to proceede farther therin then the rest by writing not by word onely hath giuen occasion ofthis which here I publish Wherein how indifferently he hath bene dealt with himselfe hath declared My conscience for mine owne part beareth me witnesse that I haue endeuored to defend the cause of the same truth with the same purpose by the same principles grouÌds that SteueÌ did Wishing from my hart if so it please God that it may preuaile more with English Papists then Steuens speech did with the Iewish Priests But ready by his grace to endure their spite ifthey hate me for telling them the truth as the Iewes did him Now sith Luke who penned the story of Steuen sent it to Theophilus most noble Theophilus I haue bene the bolder to present my conference vnto you right Honorable aduanced in state to be of the most noble in minde a Theophilus and louer of the truth Your benefites both publikely to our Vniuersitie in maintenance of our priuileges priuately to me ward a member thereof haue bound me to offer this testificatâon of a thankefull minde And sith it hath bene I know a greefe vnto you that the Popish Synagogue hath drawne proselytes thence I thought it most meete that the labours spent with one so withdrawne and printed to reclaime them who are gon if may bee or at least to stay them who are not gon should bring him the salue whom the sore had touched neerest Which moueth me withall to beseech your Honour that as you haue begoon so you will go forward in being carefull for our nurserie that they who haue the charge of husbanding it may fense it and dresse it faithfully and wisely that neither the wild boare of the forest nor other vermin may anoy it that the fruites of the trees therof may serue for meate the leaues for medicine through waters running out of the sanctuarie and the tree of life may grow in the middest of it as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leaue a most worthie monument of a noble Theophilus the reward whereof shall folow from God who will render to euery man according to his workes the remeÌbrance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland to your eternall praise throughout all posteritie The Lord of his mercie blesse you with continuall increase of the graces of his holy spirite specially of that which hath the promise of this life and of the life to come to your endlesse comfort through Iesu Christ the Lord of life At London the eighteenth of Iuly 1584. Your Honours in Christ at commaundement Iohn Rainoldes Iohn Hart to the indifferent Reader BEhold gentle Reader the conference which thou hast so long looked for betweene M. Rainoldes and me at length ended as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since had not my selfe hindred the coÌming of it foorth when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer For it is now aboue two yeares ago that the right honorable Syr Francis Walsingham as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended in graunting me libertie of conference at home first in mine owne countrie and afterwarde in prison so when the sentence of death was past vpon me hee ceased not still to offer me the
the lesser it appeareth by the controuersie betwéene Austin and Ierom concerning the reproofe of Peter whether Paule rebuked him in earnest as blameworthie or dissembled with him and made a duetifull lie which Ierom termed an honest policie For your selues graunt that Austin who thought that Paule reproued him in earnest did iudge therin more soundly truely then Ierom did who thought that he dissembled Yet Ierom alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Whereupon S. Austin replyed that peraduenture hee might finde as manie Fathers on his side if he had read much But I saith he haue Paule the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him do I flie to him I appeale from all the Doctors his interpreters who are of other mindes Of him do I aske whereas he writeth to the Galatians that hee sawe Peter not going with a ryght foote to the truth of the Gospell and that hee withstood him to his face for it bicause by that dissembling hee constrayned the Gentiles to doo lyke the Iewes whether he wrote true or did lye perhaps with I know not what politike falshood And I do heare him a litle before making a very religious protestation in the beginning of the same discourse The thynges whych I write vnto you beholde I witnes before God I lye not Let them who are of other mindes pardon me I beleeue rather so great an Apostle swearing in his owne and for his owne words then anie man be he neuer so learned talking of the words of an other A wise and frée iudgement worthie of S. Austin Whereby you may perceiue that your rule of folowing the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures is but a leaden rule not fitte which should be vsed to square out stones by for building of the Lords temple Hart. This of Austin sheweth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers and refuse their iudgement But that as Torrensis hath obserued well must bee with two cautions One that the thing wherein we varie from them be a knowne truth The other that we do it with reuerence and modestie Rainoldes UUith reuerence and modestie God forbid else As Elihu reproued Iob as Paule reproued Peter But for the other caution how shall we know a thing to be a knowne truth Hart. Oneâway to know it and that a good way is the common testimonie of the faithfull people if they with one consent beleeue it to be true Rainoldes This bringeth vs small helpe to the expounding of scriptures For things may be true and yet a place of scripture not applied truely and rightly to proue them As it is plaine in places that haue béene applied by Christians against the Iewes But let it be a good way UUhat if the faithfull people doo dissent As in the question which we haue in hand about the Popes supremacy the people of the east church dissented from the west many hundred yeares together UUhat shall we doo then Hart. Then an other way a better way to finde it is the common testimonie of the faithfull Pastors if they doo decrée it in a generall councell As for the Popes supremacy they did in the Councell of Lateran Rainoldes The Bishops of the east church say that the Councell of Lateran was not generall which the Pope him selfe doth acknowledge also as it is noted on your law But here the former difficulties méete vs againe and bréede the same perplexitie For there are but few places of Scripture which generall Councels haue expounded neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest Againe although you say that generall Councels can not erre in their conclusions yet you say they may erre in applying of Scriptures to prooue their conclusions Lastly generall Councels may dissent too as heretofore they haue in a weightie point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of as our conference will shew you sée that you haue not yet resolued me One question I must aske you more In this case when Councels say nothing of Scriptures or misapply them in proofes or dissent in conclusions what are we to doo Hart. If Councels dissent we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head And to answere all your questions in a word whether with the Councels or without the Councels that which the Head determineth is a knowne truth that which the Head condemneth is a knowne errour Rainoldes You meane by the Head not our Sauior Christ but the Pope I trow Hart. I the visible head Rainoldes Doo you not sée then by your owne answeres that whatsoeuer shew you make of Fathers and Councels the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke So that to bring it to the point in controuersie whereas our question is whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church you say He is so UUhen we sift the matter and séeke the reasons why this is the summe of all Because him selfe saith so I thought that the church should haue béene your lawier to expounde your euidences but now I perceiue that you meant the Pope Hée is the churches husband belike and in matters of law dealeth for her I cannot blame you though you be content to make him your iudge too For if he giue sentence in this cause against you I will neuer trust him Hart. You doo gather more of mine answers then I meant I pray make your owne collections and not mine Rainoldes I doo gather nothing but that which you haue scattered For you began to try this point touching the Pope by the wordes of Scripture The wordes we agrée decide by the sense the sense must be tried you say by the Fathers the Fathers by the truth the truth by the people the people by the Councels the Councels by the Pope If one of vs should make but a semblance of such an answere you would sport your selues with it and call it a Circulation and cry against our impudency whoope at it like stage players But you may daunse such roundes and yet perswade men that you go right forward with great sobrietie and grauitie Hart. Howsoeuer you dally with your circulations rounds as you call them I say no more but this that if a truth cannot be knowne otherwise then the last meane to resolue vs of it is the Popes authoritie But there néeded not so much adoo hereof if I proue that Christ did giue that supremacie whereof we talked to S. Peter Rainoldes You can neuer proue that Christ did giue it him but by the word of Christ which is the holie scripture And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense not in
epistle is auncient translated out of Greeke into Latin by Rufinus who liued within foure hundred yeares after Christ. And this touching Linus the storie of whose succession you thinke disproâeth it was thought vpon then is answered by Rufinus For ãâã his preface to the booke entitled the recognitions of Clemens which he translated too some demaund saith he how when as Linus and Cletus were Bishops of Rome before Clemens himselfe in his epistle to Iames saith that the chaire of teaching was committed to him by Peter Whereof this is the reason as we haue heard that Linus and Cletus were in deed Bishops in Rome before Clemens but while Peter liued that they might haue the care of the Bishoply charge he might do the duety of the Apostleship As it is found that also he did at Caesarea where though being present himselfe yet he had a Bishop whom he had ordained namely Zachaeus And thus may eche of these things be thought to be true both that they were reckened Bishops before Clemens and Clemens neuertheles receiued the chaire of teaching after the death of Peter Rainoldes The auncientie of the epistle is no warrant for it but that it might be false and forged The epistles of Seneca to Paul of Paul to Seneca are no lesse auncient which yet haue nothing worthie of either Paul or Seneca There haue béene verie many misbegotten pamphlets wandring abroad euen from the time of the Apostles yea vnder the names of the Apostles themselues The lesse haue you to maruell if there were some miscreant who wrote in the name of Clemens to Iames. As for Rufinus who translated it if yet he did translate it and some haue not abused him as well as Clemens his iudgement was not such but he might be deceiued in a greater matter Which if you beléeue not on S. Ieroms credit because he was his aduersarie looke into these same workes that he translated and you shall perceiue it For the thinges writen in the Recognitions of Clemens which you mention sent to Iames also are the most of them vncertaine many fabulous yea and some hereticall as your selues confesse Yet Rufinus iudged it a hidden treasure of wisedome thought he had a bootie of it Againe in that epistle wherein Clemens maketh him selfe Peters successor he certifieth Iames that he sent him before by the commandement of Peter an other booke entitled the booke of Clemens touching thinges which Peter did in his iourney Now this iourney-booke hath béene so long so famously knowne for a roague that he hath not onely béene burnt through the âare of olde by sundrie Fathers and Bishops in a Councell but also of late the college of Inquisitors at Rome haue enrolled him in the Register of bookes condemned by the Church Wherefore he was a counterfeit that set abroad these bastardes in the name of Clemens howsoeuer Rufinus thought them of simplicitie to be his owne whose they were named And with this perswasion was he moued to thinke on some probabilitie how that might be true which séemed false therein of Peters ordeining Clemens to be his successor when Linus and Cletus were Bishops before him The only shew whereof being a report receyued by tradition he was faine to take it for lacke of a better But he erred in it either not knowing or not considering times and stories For by his answere Linus and Cletus should be no longer Bishops then while Peter liued and when he dyed Clemens should succéede him next immediatly Whereas it is apparant by records of times that Linus continued Bishop eleuen yeares after Peters death and Cletus twelue after Linus before that Clemens had the roome Which albeit Turrian the Iesuite doâ gnaw vpon as he is wont to make it away yet is the matter so manifest certaine that Genebrard the freshest of your Popish Chroniclers and passing all the rest as in skill so in zeale for the Popes causes could not but set it downe as true Hart. Yet he saith withall that Peter did nominate Clemens to succeede him But Clemens gaue the roome first to Linus and then to Cletus not so much of modestie as by the counsell of the Lord least the example of this nomination should passe to the posteritie and derogate from the free prouidence of the Church in choosing of her owne Bishop Rainoldes He saith so in deede But who séeth not that this was deuised to make stories agrée with the tale of Clemens and by the way to countenance the election of Popes which now the Cardinals vse For the booke of Ceremonies of the Church of Rome treating of that election affirmeth that Peter nominated Clemens to be his successour with this coÌdition it is thought if the Cardinals would admit him But they perceiuing that the forme of this nomination might greatly hurt the Church in processe of time did not accept of Clemens but did choose Linus and made him Pope after Peter Howbeit Clemens afterwarde was chosen by the Cardinals when Linus and Cletus were deceased Though Genebrard in âââming the fansie to his purpose doth not so much follow the booke of the Ceremonies as the glose of the Canon law which with better care of the Popes credit saith that Pope Clemens him selfe renounced the Papacie considering that it would be an euill and pernicious thing for the example that any should choose his owne successour Into such follies do you ãâã your selues to say that the blessed Apostle of Christ S. Peter did ordeine that which was pernicious for the example refused by the Pope mislyked by the Cardinals preiudiciall to the Church and all to maintaine the epistle of Clemens with the tale in it that Peter made him his successour A thing so absurd that where it is mentioned in the Canon law there is it nââed to âe chaffe and Contius a learned lawier of your owne doth note vpon that note that it is counted chaffe worthily for it is all counterfeite and Comestor the autor of the scholastical historie who liued when the darkenes of Poperie was grossest refuteth and reiecteth it as a méere forgerie But whatsoeuer it âe and hoâ so euer auncient ãâã the same it may be which S. Ierom saith did beare the name of Clemens and was reproued by olde writers but be it what you wil you confesse your selfe that to be vntrue for proofe wherof you cited it that Clemens succeeded Peter and not Linus Wherefore séeing Linus did succéede Peter that while Peter liued in the same sort as Zachaeus did you say at Caesarea Euodius at Antioche the Bishops of Antioche of Caesarea may claime as well the Papacy by Peters succession as may the Bishop of Rome Hart. Yet by your owne graunt and the consent of histories Linus who succéeded him in Rome did out-liue him And therefore he was
Monothelites Whereto Onuphrius addeth the authorities of Emmanuell Callêca a Grecian and Iohn of Turrecremata Cardinal of San-sisto who haue proued by their writings that he was a Catholike Bishop Rainoldes Haue proued Nay they would had not their proofes failed But is not this a straunge answere The question is touching Honorius a Pope who liued almost a thousand yeares ago what he taught in a point of faith The Bishops who liued about the same time not many fewer then two hundred or as some write three hundred do say and proue their saying by his owne writings that he taught erroneously as the Monothelites Platina Sabellicus Nauclerus Blondus Siluius Callêca and Turrecremata seuen of the Popes freends of whom the eldest liued aboue sixe hundred yeares after him doo affirme the contrary Whether of these are likelier to know and say the truth thereof Hart. But there are also in the Popes librarie the writings of Maximus who liued about the same time And it is plaine by him that Honorius did not subscribe to that heresie yea that of a certainetie he did condemne it Rainoldes Onuphrius might say so and as he thought safely because it was not likely that we should see Maximus in the Popes librarie to disproue his saying But it is disproued by your owne Andradius Who discoursing hereof to shewe that it is not certaine that Honorius did first condemne the heresie of the Monothelites though Platina and Sabellicus and Blondus and Aeneas Siluius say he did for Theophanes saith he and Anastasius historians much ancienter then they do write that Iohn the fourth Pope after him was the first who did it And Maximus as it is well noted by Torrensis a singular learned man hauing purposly vndertaken to cleere Honorius of that heresie made not any mention of his condemning it though if it had beene so he must haue knowne it needes and could not haue omitted it Now this Torrensis whom Andradius prayseth hath alleaged that whole place of Maximus touching Honorius whereof the summe is this that the secretarie of Honorius who wrote the verie epistle that he was charged by and knewe belike his meaning best expounded part thereof in a good sense that it might seeme sounde And this is that Maximus in the Popes library by which your Onuphrius doth take it to bée plaine or at the least would haue vs take it that Honorius did neuer subscribe to that heresie yea that of a certaintie he did condemne it But sée what difference betwéene men Andradius who alloweth the secretaries exposition which Maximus alleaged to cléere Honorius of that heresie yet thinketh it plaine by that place of Maximus that hee did not condemne it Torrensis a friend of the Popes too declareth that a part of the epistle of Honorius is helped reasonably by the secretaries exposition but it fitteth not another parte thereof in which it is plaine by his owne wordes that he was a Monothelite So Torrensis who had accesse to the Popes library as well as Onuphrius hath shewed that Onuphrius did meane to steale a lye by sending vs to Maximus in the Popes library As for Maximus himselfe he was loth for good will both to Honorius and the truth that the heretikes should boast as they did of such a patrone and therefore he desired to withdraw him from them But the generall Councell before which hée wrote found after on better examination of the matter that Honorius ioyned with them and taught as they did Wherefore whatsoeuer Maximus hath writen or rather wished of it the Councell is of greater credit then Maximus much more then Callêca or Turrecremata who could not say therein so much as Maximus and Maximus is the best that they say Hart. That which you alleage of the Councell were somewhat if they had condemned Honorius of that heresie But they did not although it be so writen in the Councell now For Anastasius the kéeper of the Popes library who liued within two hundred yeares after Honorius doth teach in his Latin historie out of Theophanes a Gréeke writer that the common copies of the sixth Councell were corrupted by the Grecians and the Canons thereof in the which Honorius is condemned were forged Rainoldes Canons what Canons There are no Canons of the sixth Councell in which Honorius is condemned Neither doth Anastasius or Theophanes say it Hart. No Sure Onuphrius saith as I saide And that which he saith he saith that Sirletus then a chiefe Notarie now Cardinall of Rome an excellent learned man had marked it Rainoldes A foule and grosse faute either of Sirletus or Onuphrius or both For there were two méetinges of Bishops at Constantinople which both doo beare the name of the sixth Councell the former vnder the Emperour Constantine the fourth about the yeare of Christ sixe hundred and eightie the later vnder his sonne Iustinian towarde a thirtie yeares after The former was assembled against the heresie of the Monothelites the Bishops of the west Church as well as of the east were present and they with one consent did al condemne Honorius In the later there met the Bishops of the east onely who made rules and orders of ecclesiasticall discipline which are the Canons that you mention These Canons doo conteine the summe of the ordinances of the Gréeke Church wherein the Church of Rome is grated vpon both for other pointes and chiefly for the Popes supremacie The Gréeke Bishops therefore to winne the more credit vnto their Canons said that they were made by the sixth generall Councell Of which they reported that when it was dimissed the verie same Fathers whom Constantine the Emperour assembled before were againe assembled by his sonne Iustinian after a foure or fiue yeares and ordained those Canons But Theophanes and Anastasius haue shewed that to be a tale as it is in déede and in discourse thereof haue saide of those Canons that they are falsly named the Canons of the sixth Councell Now Sirletus falling belike on these wordes and remembring that the sixth Councell is saide to haue condemned Honorius thought it either true or wholesome to be taught as true that hee was condemned by harlotrie Canons not made by the Councell but forged in the Councels name Which fansie peraduenture he told his friend Onuphrius and Onuphrius for ioy went and set it in print So by the conueiance of Onuphrius and Sirletus pretending and abusing the countenance and names of Anastasius and Theophanes the sixth generall Councell is put to silence as it were from bearing witnesse against Honorius But the mischiefe of it is that Torrensis againe doth marre the play For out of the histories of Theophanes and Anastasius which are not common to be séene he hath alleaged also this place touching those Canons Whereby it is manifest that their meaning was not to discredit the actions of the sixth Councell which condemned Honorius in the time
of Constantine as you would haue vs to imagin Their meaning was onely to shew that the Canons which are called the Canons of the sixth Councell were made by other Bishops in the time of Iustinian long after that Councell and therefore are falsly fathered vpon that Hart. But is not Honorius condemned by those Canons whosoeuer made them Rainoldes He is not as much as named in any of them saue onely in the first where they who named him haue named him so that both they haue seuered them selues from the sixth Councell by which he was condemned and haue encreased the credit of it For they recken him amongst the heads of the Monotheliâes and say of them all that the sixth Councell did condemne them iustly Hart. That Canon sauoureth of corruption which speaketh so of Pope Honorius Rainoldes So. What say you then to the sixth generall Councell it seâfe They doo speake of him a great deale more bittârly reprouing his doctâine as the doctrine of heretikes false wicked pestilent Nor thinking it enough to condemne his doctrine they curse his name and person also Hart. I say that the copies of the sixth general councel are corrupted Rainoldes The sixth generall Councell hath handled the cause of the Monothelite heretikes in eightene actions as they are termed In the first action the eight and the eleuenth the heretikes alleage in their owne defense that Pope Honorius taught as they doo In the twelfth and thirtenth his writinges are examined his heresie discouered himselfe condemned and cursed In the sixtenth seuententh and eightenth the sentence which was giuen against him and the curse are repeated often againe and againe with acclamation of the Councel Thinke you that the copies of the actions of the Councell are corrupted in all those places Hart. In all in which Honorius is condemned or cursed Rainoldes What and that those places are corrupted in all copies and that without difference all after one sort al with the same wordes Hart. All why not is that impossible Rainoldes Not impossible yet improbable But the seuenth generall Councell which you esâéeme so greatly for their defense of image-worship this seuenth doth make no better account of Honorius Hart. The seuenth generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But in the eight general Councel there is rehersed a spéech of Adrian the Pope which he had vttered in a councell assembled by himselfe In that he affirmeth that the Bishops of the east did condemne Honorius with the consent of the Bishop of Rome Hart. The eight generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But Leo the second who was Pope then when the sixth Councell was ended doth namely confirme this point with these wordes we accurse Honorius who hath not lightned this Apostolike Church with Apostolike doctrine but by wicked treacherie hath labored to subuert the vndefiled faith Hart. That epistle of Leo is corrupted too Rainoldes But many other learned both Gréeke and Latin autors Beda Psellus Vmbertus Balsamon Marianus Scotus Tharasius and the easterne bishops yea your owne Pontificall of the Popes liues make reporte of it Hart. What néedeth this adoo It is all answered by Father Robert in a word For either these autors are corrupted them selues or they were deceiued by the copies of the sixth councell being corrupted Rainoldes The saying of Tully I sée is verie true He that is once gone beyond the boundes of modestie must lustily be impudent Albertus Pighius an Archpapist intending to proue in his bookes of the holy princehood of the Church that in all causes of faith and religion the Pope is the soueraine iudge of all Christians whom they are bound to heare and folow because it was absurd he thought and very daungerous to attribute so great a power to one man vnles the man were such as might not erre in faith therefore he tooke vpon him to bring in this doctrine that the praier of Christ for Peters faith not to faile doth priuilege the Pope from falling into any heresie Whereupon as in generall he denied that the Pope may be an heretike though all Diuines and Canonistes by his confession graunt it so to clense Honorius thereof in particular hée said that the copies of the sixth Councell which made against him were corrupted This dealing of Pighius was greatly misliked by lerned men of his own side in so much that one of them reproued him for it in a publike assembly wisht him to recant it They alleaged against him that Honorius was condemned and pronounced an heretike by two generall Councels the sixth and the seuenth wherofthe authoritie ought to be held as sacred But Pighius was so farre from being moued therewith that he wrote a new treatise against those two Councels affirming them to be corrupted and in heat of zeale for the Popes quarell he called the sixth Councell a most cursed Councell Here the Councels case and perill that was like to fall on all autours if such hot heads might make such desperate answeres did stirre vp the spirite of Franciscus Torrensis to write against Pighius whom he hath confuted and proued that Honorius was in deede an heretike condemned by the Councell iustly Sith the which time though Hosius a Cardinall and Onuphrius a Fryer men of hard foreheads haue taken Pighius part yet neither haue they strengthned the reasons of Pighius shaken in péeces by Torrensis and other of your Doctors more ingenuous and sound namely Iouerius Canus Andradius and Alfonsus a Castro haue shewed their mislike of Pighius and Honorius both Yea âur countriman Harding who would not graunt so much of any other Pope yet graunted of Honorius that he may be iustly burdened with heresie and fell in deede into it But now behold a newe gamster a Iesuit Father Robert doth set vpon the matter fresh and teacheth in his solemne lectures at Rome that it is true the Pope may be an heretike marry it is probable and godly to be thought that he cannot be an heretike A straunge resolution and fitte for a Iesuit Yet to shew how probable he can make that seeme which he confesseth to be false by holding the contrarie therof to be true he saith somewhat for euery one of those Popes that are charged with heresie and for Pope Honorius he dealeth more impudently then Pighius himselfe For he toucheth not the credit of the sixth or seuenth Councell onely but all that come in his way Councels Popes Grâekes Latins Historians Diuines either they are corrupted or abused by corruption Well may the opinion which Father Robert saith for be probable false both But this of Honorius by which he would confirme it is out of all doubt though false yet not probable Hart. It is probable enough as Father Robert handleth it For streames may be corrupted as easily as the fountaine
or take infection at least from the fountaine being corrupted Now the fountaine as it were whence the rest haue drawne it is the sixth Councell And he saith that there the name of Honorius was thrust in amongst the names of other heretikes by malitious men of spite against the Pope Whereof hee bringeth two proofes One that Anastasius witnesseth it to haue bene so out of Theophanes An other that the Gréekes aduentured sometimes to corrupt bookes as the same Councell declareth by their practises Rainoldes The Councell declareth that there were some copies of a former Councell that had bene corrupted by heretikes among the Greekes But as euill dealing doth still leaue steppes behind it whereby it may be traced out their corruption was discouered both by circumstances of the thing and by the maner of writing and by conference with other copies Now in these places of the sixth Councell in which Honorius is touched you can shew no token of any such suspicion Nay the tokens all are cleere to the contrarie euen that which you alleage of the Greekes conuicted to haue corrupted bookes For if they had corrupted so much of the Councell in so many places it is very likely that they would haue also corrupted those places wherein they are noted and discredited for such corruptions Neither doth Anastasius report out of Theophanes that the Greekes did so Perhaps Father Robert did dreame out of Onuphrius that hee had said so But although Onuphrius say more in that point then truth did afford yet he saith not that As for Anastasius he is so farre from saying it that he gainesayeth it rather For in his storie of the Popes liues he setteth Honorius downe amongst the heretikes who were condemned by the sixth Councell The same is confirmed in an olde copie of the seuenth Councell which he translated out of Greeke and left it in the Popes librarie And at the eight Councell he was him selfe present and put it into Latin most diligently and faithfully there a Pope doth witnesse it To be short Torrensis addeth moreouer touching Anastasius that if he had suspected the Greekes to haue corrupted any of the places concerning this matter hee would haue giuen warning no doubt of it also as he hath done of other Wherfore though ill disposed men amongst the Greekes corrupted bookes sometimes yet the consent of copies chiefely of the Latin writen shortly after the time of the Councell laid vp at Rome the coherence of things the agreement of autours and circumstances of the storie doo make it very vnlikely that they dealt so with the sixth Councell in the matter of Honorius It were pitie that all euidences of men should be distrusted because there are some euidences falsified by euill men But Father Robert dealeth as Alexander the great who when he could not vndoo the knot of Gordius did cutte it a sunder with his sword Hart. Your knot of Honorius I wisse is not so hard but that he might vndoo it without this sword and he doth so For he sheweth that the epistles of Honorius to Sergius on which the sixth Councell adiudged him an heretike are both wisely writen and sound without errour Wherefore though we shoulde graunt that hee had sentence giuen against him by the Councell it foloweth not thereof that he was an heretike They might condemne him vniustly Rainoldes Take heede You were better let the knot alone then vndoo it so This medicine will do more harme then the disease In deede a great Cardinall on whom you relie much would play fast and loose with it in such sort vpon the spéech of Pope Adrian who saith that Honorius was cursed by the Bishops of the East after his death because he was accucused of heresie For hereupon he gathereth that Honorius was not an heretike while he liued nor cursed by the Pope or Bishops of the west But it foloweth straight in the spéech of Adrian which the Cardinall cut off that vnlesse the Pope had consented to it the Bishops of the east would not haue condemned him Moreouer the actes of the Councâll shewe how Bishops of the west were also present and subscribed So that the sentence giuen against Honorius was giuen by the Councell and by the Pope him selfe not by the easterne Bishops only Wherfore if the epistles of Honorius were sound on which as vnsound he was condemned of heresie then a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope did erre in condemning him And if you graunt this as you must by consequent you betraye the strongest castell of Poperie to saue a captaines honour For men of iudgement will thinke that the doctrine of the reformed Churches may be sound for which as vnsound the Councell of Trent confirmed by the Pope hath condemned vs. They might condemne vs vniustly Hart. Not so For they examined and knew very perfitly the doctrine of the reformed Churches as you call them Rainoldes What And did the other condemne and curse the doctrine of Honorius a Pope and did they not examine and know it very perfitly Hart. If this do not stand with the Councels credit Father Robert maketh an other answere yet which may be liked better Namely that the epistles were perhaps counterfeited not writen by Honorius but by some heretike in his name And so might the Councell condemne the doctrine iustly but erre in the person Rainoldes Yet were this also a blemish of the Councell to condemne a Pope in steede of an heretike But they haue not deserued to be touched with it For the former epistle vpon the proofe whereof they did proceed to sentence they saw it conferred with the autheÌtical Latin copie found it to agrée Beside that the autor whom your selues alleage to cléere Honorius confessed it to be Honorius his owne and he confessed it then when the secretarie of Honorius who wrote it with his owne hand was aliue of good account and bare witnesse of it The later was approued to the Councel as the former though they stoode lesse about it as néeding lesse inquiry when he was now alreadie cast But it hath all presumptions for it so probable that not as much as Pighius could suspect it though he suspected the other Neither do I thinke that father Robert thought them in déede to be counterfeited But as a man that is in daunger of drowning doth snatch at euery bulrush to saue his life if it may be so he seing the Pope made subiect to heresie by the sixth generall Councell doth catch at euerie fansie whereby he hath some hope to helpe him The fansie of Pighius is that the Councell did not condemne Honorius the copies of it are corrupted Andradius checketh that and saith he was condemned but the Councell erred in condemning him as iudging him to erre who did not Torrensis varieth from them both and cometh in with a finer quirke to wéete that Pope Honorius did consent
Rainoldes Alas And sée you not how giddily the Councell doth bring in that reason that because our nature doth neede outward helpes therefore some things should be pronounced softly some aloude For the very chiefest of the outwarde helpes which God hath ordeined to raise our mindes from earth to heauen is the hearing of his word His word is rehersed in the Epistle the Gospell the Canon and other partes of the Masse The Masse you forbid to be saide in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people so that if all were cryed as loude as Baals seruice the people could not vnderstand it Yet not content with that you will a part of it to bee saide with a soft voice that the poore soules may not as much as heare it Wherefore the reason which your Councell maketh for that Massing-rite is this in effect that because the blindenesse and coldnesse of men doth neede to be lightened and warmed by Gods worde which is rehearsed in the Masse therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voyce that they may not heare it part with a lowder but in a strange toong that although they heare it they may not vnderstand it And was there not a mightie spirit of giddines in the Princes of Trent that made them write so droonkenly Yea with a curse to seale it too Hart. They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are vttered with a soft voice is to be condemned or that the Masse ought to be celebrated onely in the vulgar toung And great reason why Rainoldes No dout For as the Iewes when they could not iustifie their wilful withstanding of the Sonne of God agréeed that if any man confessed him to be Christ he should be excommunicated so by like reason your Iudaizers of Rome doo banne and curse vs when they cannot iustifie their impudent customes and corruptions against vs. Hart. The customes are Catholike and religious rites which they do establish with the seueritie of the curse Rainoldes Catholike and religious to kéepe the Saintes of God from hearing of Gods word Catholike and religious to haue the Church-seruice in a tongue which the Church the faithfull people vnderstand not Hart. Yea Catholike and religious if you marke the reasons which they giue thereof For of the one they shew that the Church hath ordeined it of the other that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar toung Rainoldes Not the ancient Fathers Why they are cleere for it and yonger Fathers too Yea Fathers both and children I meane the whole Churches of al nations in the old time of many euen till this day as namely of the Syrians Armenians Slauonians Moscouites and Ethiopians Hart. What so euer Churches or Fathers doo or haue doon it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Trent And they being Bishops and Pastours of the Church might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by your owne confessions Rainoldes They might But our confessions withall should haue taught them that as they may prouide for things to be doon with comelines and in order so their rites and ceremonies must be all to edifie Which the Trent-fathers obserued not in this rite of hauing the seruice in a straunge tongue as themselues acknowlege For they write expressely that although the Masse containe great instruction of the faithful people yet the Fathers haue not thought it expedient that it should be soong or said euerie where in the vulgar tongue Whereof this is the meaning to open it in plainer words that the corrupt custome of the Church of Rome praying and reading the scriptures in a straunge tongue in deede doth not edifie yet must stand for policie to keepe their Churches credit For if they should yéeld that they haue erred in one thing men would dout perhaps that they might erre in more And this doo they farther bewray by the other point of vttering the words of consecration secretly that the faithfull may not heare them For in saying that the Church hath ordeined that rite they doo closely graunt that Christ ordeined it not Nay their owne men teach that the example of Christ and the order of his Apostles with the Fathers too is manifest against it Beside that in calling it a rite of the Church of Rome they signifie that other Churches do not vse it no not the Greeke Church And yet against the practise of Churches of Fathers of Apostles and of Christ they say that a dumbe shew which crept in by custome was ordeined by our holy mother the Church and as men resolued to wallow in their owne vomit they curse him whosoeuer he be that shall condemne it Hart. Although Christ we grant did vtter the words of consecration openly and the Apostles and Fathers and other Churches also haue kept the same rite yet the Church of Rome is not to be condemned for taking order to the contrarie For rites may be changed as it shall séeme best to them who gouerne the Church and there was great reason why they should change this to weete least those words so holy and sacred should grow into contempt whiles all in a maner knowing them through common vse would sing them in the streetes and other places not conuenient In the which respect perhaps they thought good also that the Masse and Mattins and all the Church-seruice should rather be in Latin then in the vulgar tongue For of familiar vse there groweth contempt and men are wont to wonder at things which they know not thingâ common are despised Rainoldes A great ouersight of our Sauiour Christ who willed his Apostles to speake that in the light which he had told them in darknes and what they heard in the eare that to preach on the howses For men would despise his gospel if they knew it as they doo meate who haue it And what meant S. Paule to disclose the words of consecration to the Corinthians Yea in their vulgar tongue too And that with instruction to shew foorth thâ Lords death vntill he came as oft as they receiued the sacrament Did he go about to bring the words of consecration and death of Christ into contempt Or was not Innocentius the Pope borne yet of whom he might haue learned that they must be vttered not onely in a strange tongue but also closely and in silence least men if they heare them do know them through vse and sing them in the streetes But wil you sée Your Fathers of the Trent-councel were ouershot a litle when they ordeined that Pastours and all who haue cure of soules should often times expound by them selues or by others somewhat of those things which are read in the Masse
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌmentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌd it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâsitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a âhinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde âffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed
the MetropolitaÌ And this would serue fitly to take away the scruple as hée sayth it doth of them who haue thought that the Bishop of Rome is made equall with other Metropolitans by that canon But because it goeth against the consent of most ancient copies of the Popes owne and others Andradius reproueth it and kéeping the name of the Bishop of Rome sayth that by his custome his iudgement is meant A hard interpretation and flat against the text which authorising and approuing the custome of the Bishop of Alexandria because the Bishop of Rome hath that custome too doth ground them both vpon old customes not one vpon the others iudgement Wherefore the Iesuites the perfiters of Poperie haue concluded now that the beginning of the canon wanteth what this The Church of Rome hath still had the primacie Hart. And good reason why For it is cited so in the Councell of Chalcedon Rainoldes So they say but falsely And that with a pretie shift of legiârdemaine For whereas Paschasinus the Popes Legate there bringing forth that canon to the Popes behoofe had set this title ouer it That the Church of Rome hath still had the primacie the Iesuites suppressing quite the word That doe alleage the rest as a part of the canon Hart. Perhaps they thought the word That to be superfluous Rainoldes They might haue thought the whole title to be so if they had marked that which followeth in the Councel For the same canon being recited straight out of an other copie by Constantine the Secretarie hath no word therof But to leaue the dealing of the Popes legate with the beginning of the canon the Iesuites cannot scape out of the midst of it no more then their complices For the Roman reader is entangled in it as fast as Pope Nicolas whose forme he relieth on The abridgement of coÌtrouersies doth lie by his side too with brauer shew but lesser strength Hart. Whether that title were added to the canon by the Popes Legate or were a part thereof it maketh no matter The primacie named in it was giuen to the Pope by the Councel of Nice For though in the common volumes of Councels there be but twentie canons of theirs extant now yet they made fourescore By many of the which the Pope is autorised to iudge all greater causes as Iulius declareth Yea the fourescore canons whole were found of late at Alexandria in the Arabian toung and turned into Latin out of the Arabian by a learned Iesuite Therein are Patriarkes sayd to rule all their subiectes as the Pope is head of all Patriarkes like Peter to whom all power is geuen ouer all Christian Princes and ouer all their peoples as being Christs vicar ouer all nations of the earth Rainoldes That of Pope Iulius I haue alreadie shewed to be a bastard ympe The canons cited in it are âatt after kinde Contius your lawyer sayth that their bastardie is proued euen by this that no man no not Gratian himselfe durst alleage them No dout if the Pope had layde them vp so as the counterfeite Iulius sweareth that he did Pope Zosimus and the rest who made such adde with the Bishops of Afrike about the Nicen Councell would haue found and shewed them But the Arabian canons which the Iesuite brought from AlexaÌdria may suffice to giue or take a deaths wound of them For those which Iulius citeth are not in the Arabian That which the Arabian hath is not in Iulius Hart. Though Iulius cite not that of the Popes supremacie which the Arabian hath yet might it be true And certes the credit of the Arabian copie must néedes be very great Chiâfly sith it agréeth in the perfit number of the Nicen canons For they were fourescore as Athanasius writeth Who sent to Pope Marcus for the full copies of them when the Arians had burnt them at Alexandria Rainoldes And Pope Marcus sent theÌ him Whereby is disclosed the forgerie of both their writinges For the bookes which the Arians burnt at Alexandria were burnt in the time of Constantius the Emperour as appéereth by the complaint of the right Athanasius being driuen out thence Now Marcus the Pope was dead about an eyght or nine yeares before in the time of Constantine as Ierom recordeth Hart. But other Fathers speake of sundrie thinges decréed by the Nicen Councell as you may sée in Cope whereof there is no mention in the twentie canons that are extant now Rainoldes Neither in the fourescore canons of the Arabian Wherefore if the sundrie thinges which they speake of doe proue all sundrie canons the Arabian canon which Harpsfields Cope alleageth for the Popes supremacie may chaunce to proue a counterfeit Nay it must proue so because it is a canon if you beléeue the Fathers For they had only twentie euen the same that we haue S Austin and aboue two hundred Bishops of Afrike acknowledged no mo Caecilian the Bishop of Carthage brought no mo from the Councel it selfe whereat he was present S. Cyril the Bishop of Alexandria Atticus the Bishop of Constantinople affirme there were no mo Rufinus who hath registred them in his storie deliuereth no mo Finally S. Isidore a curious sercher of them sayth they were iust so many As for other Fathers if they shewe any thing to haue bene decréed by the Nicen Councell which is not in these canoÌs as they doe certaine the canons decrees of the councel of Trent may teach you that some things might be decreed besides and yet the canons be but twentie Hart. What say you then to that which Zosimus alleaged in the Councell of Carthage touching appeales of Bishops to the Bishop of Rome For that is called a canon of the Nicen Councel and not a decree Rainoldes I say that it was neither decree nor canon of it as the Bishops of Afrike answered and prooued Yea the Roman reader the chiefe of your Iesuites is of the same opinion adding that he thinketh that Zosimus did call it a canon of the Nicen Councell because it is a canon of the Councell of Sardica and those two Councels were esteemed as one and bound vp together in the Popes library Wherefore sith the Councell of Nice made no canons but the common twentie and they speake against the supremacie of the Pope euen by the Arabians owne interpretation whatsoeuer eyther Arabian or Roman hath coyned to the contrarie that must néedes bée counterfeit and the Pope is guiltie of theft and oppression by verdit of that famous Councell Whereto the Councell of Antioche doth ioyne their verdit too For they say as the Nicen not onely concerning the making of Bishops but also the determining of causes of the Church In so much that if a Bishop being accused the Bishops of the prouince agree not
about him some iudging with him some against yet referre they not the matter to the Pope but will the Metropolitan to call some other Bishops out of the next prouince that they may iudge together and decide the controuersie But if al the Bishops of the prouince agree and giue one senteÌce of him then may he be iudged no more by any other no not by the Pope but that must stand which they haue said Hart. Yet the Councell of Sardica can not be denyed to haue made with vs. For there it was ordeined that if a Bishop depriued by the Bishops of his owne prouince appealed to the Pope the Pope if he thought good might write to the Bishops who were neere that prouince that they should examin the matter diligently and giue right iudgement of it or send him selfe also some from his owne side to iudge together with them Rainoldes When this was alleaged by the Popes legate in his behalfe at Carthage the Bishops of Afrike said after long serch that they found it not ordeined by any Councell Which moued a Doctour of your owne to write that it may be douted whether the Councell of Sardica ordeined it or no. And sith at that Councell there were not many lesse than fourtie Bishops of Afrike who brought home the canons thereof as it is likely his dout hath reason for it Unlesse peraduenture because in the fountaine and spring of that canon Iulius is named in whom the Councell had a speciall affiance for his dealing against the Arians therefore the Bishops of Afrike thought it to haue bene geueÌ personally to Iulius not to Popes in generall and so to haue died with him not liued with them But if it were ordeined indéede by the Councell in respect of him as Pope not as Iulius yet they who auouch it to proue the Popes supremacie doe make as good a reason as if a man should claime the whole citie of London because he hath the lease of a house in Hogsdon For the Councell of Sardica tieth him in all pointes saue only in this to his owne prouince as well as other Bishops and in this it sheweth that he had it not of right before time but now by that grant neither doth it grant him to iudge of the causes but to commend the iudgement therof to the Synode or at the most to be a fellow-iudge with theÌ and they in whose causes it granteth him so much are Bishops none else Howbeit euen this too that he should send some from his own side to iudge of their causes together with the Synode was repealed afterward and the whole committed to Synodes of the prouince or diocese if the prouince serued not Belike vpon experience of some harme ensuing as a husband man in Sicilie hauing rid stones out of his ground was troubled so with myre that he lost his corne till he had layde them in agayne For the generall Councell of Constantinople did forbid the Bishops of a diocese such as Egypt contayning many prouinces to meddle with the Churches without their owne limits and commaund that things in euery prouince should be ordered by the Synode of the prouince according to the canons of the Nicen Councell Hart. But they gaue the primacie of honour to the Bishop of Constantinople after the Bishop of Rome Which sheweth that the Bishop of Rome in their iudgement was ouer all in primacie Rainoldes In primacie of honour M. Hart not of power as I haue often sayd For in power they made him equall with his brethren enclosing them all within their owne limits and appointing the causes of Bishops to be iudged eche by his owne Synode first of the prouince then of the diocese without mention of the Pope Yet in honour they set him highest Constantinople next as the very wordes of the Councell shâw It is true that this height and preeminence of honour was a cause that moued him to lust for greater power too and meanes that lift him vp vnto it For as murderers in Italie are woont to flie to sanctuaries to escape punishment and Romulus receaued runagates at Rome to aduance his state so disorderly persons not able to maintaine their faultes against iustice in their owne prouince did runne to the Pope and ambitious heades whether of Popes themselues or of some about theÌ aspired to greater rule vnder pretense of priuiledges of the Church of Rome But as generall Councels had prouided generall salues against such euils so the Councels of prouinces and dioceses applied them to this particular sore for safetie of their Churches For it was decréed by the Councell of Mileuis that if any Elder or Deacon or clergie-man of inferiour state appealed to the Pope no man in Afrike should communicate with him The Councell of Carthage sheweth that they had often decreed the same of Bishops And when yet they could not auoide the shamelesse shiftes of tumultuous braines who made Rome their refuge and Zosimus in the quarell of Apiarius an Elder would haue his Bishop Vrban to be excommunicated or appeere at Rome the Bishops of all the prouinces of Afrike did debate the matter with him and his successors Boniface and Caelestine for the space of foure or fiue yeares together In fine when the true and authenticall copies of the Nicen Councell whereon the Pope grounded were gotten out of the East and thereby the falshoode of his plea appéered the Councell of Afrike told him that he should not meddle with the causes of men in their prouinces nor receaue any such to the communion as they had excommunicate For the Councell of Nice sayd they did consider wisely and vprightly that all matters ought to be determined in the places in which they began as being perswaded that the grace of the holy ghost would not be wanting to any prouince whereby the Christian Bishops might both wisely see and constantly maintaine the right Chiefly sith it is lawfull for any if he like not the sentence of his iudges to appeale to the Synodes of his owne prouince yea or farther also to a generall Synode Vnlesse there be any perhaps who will imagin that our God can inspire the triall of right into one man and denie it to a great number of Bishops assembled in a Synode And so going forward with proofe that the Pope ought not to iudge their causes either at Rome himselfe or by his Legates sent from Rome they touched his attempt in modest sort but at the quicke condemning it of pride smokie statelinesse of the world Hart. I maruell if the Councel of Afrike wrote thus as you report of it For Torrensis citeth an epistle of theirs to proue the Popes supremacie Rainoldes Torrensis citeth it with as much sinceritie as an other Iesuite doth the foure general Councels both fowly abusing the shew of some wordes against the drift
and meaning of their whole sentences For the Councell of Afrike though bearing a while with the Popes claime till the Nicen canons whereby he claimed were serched yet at length condemned it as I haue shewed and of the foure generall Councels as the former two did enclose the Pope within his owne prouince or diocese at the most so did the two later of Ephâsus and Chalcedon confirming the decrées and canons of the former Hart. Nay doubtlesse at Chalcedon the Iudges hauing heard the former canons read sayd that they perceiued al primacie principall honour to be due to the Pope thereby Rainoldes But they added that the Patriarke of Constantinople ought to be vouchsafed of the same prerogatiues and primacie of honour As the Câuncell also it selfe allotted equall prerogatiues to them both ordeining therevpon that Constantinople should be magnified in ecclesiasticall matters as well as Rome and be next vnto it Wherein it is manifest that they meant preeminence of honour not of power For themselues decréed that the highest iudge of ecclesiasticall persons should be the Patriarke of the diocese or of Constantinople Wherby they gaue greater power to the Patriarke of Constantinople whom they authorised to deale in euery diocese then to the Roman Patriarke whom they tied to his own In so much that the Greekes say that all dioceses of the whole world were subiect to their Patriarke by the Councell of Chalcedon At least if the Councel haâ an eye to power and not to honour only in willing them to be magnified yet that is a disproofe still of the Popes supremacie As you may learne by Gratian. Who séeking to proue it by the same canon renued in the Councell of Constantinople hath helped it with a negatiue and where the Councell sayd Let Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome he alleageth it let not Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome Hart. The Councell which that canon was renued in is vntruly called the sixth general Councel For they made no canons Rainoldes Yet a Councell made them in Constantinople with credit of a generall And the next generall Councell did confirme them Which thereby disproued the Popes supremacie too Yea againe the next defined of the Pope as of other Patriarkes and that vpon the ground of the famous Nicen. To be short the visible Monarchie of the Church was neuer allowed to him by any Councell generall or prouinciall vntil the East Churches were rent from the West and the Italian faction did beare the sway in Councels Hart. What meane you to say so wheras the Councell of Lateran vnder InnoceÌtius did approue it flatly the Patriarks of the Churches of Constantinople and Ierusalem being present Rainoldes Not the right Patriarkes I trow Though if they had bene yet might the Italians make decrées in Lateran at Rome without them But nether did that Councell approue the Popes Monarchie For the Popes Monarchie is a full and absolute soueraintie of power ouer the whole Church Wherevpon the principall proctours of it teach that not a generall Councell is aboue the Pope but the Pope aboue the CouÌcel For they sayth Father Robert who hold that the Councel is aboue the Pope do make him like a Duke of Venice aboue euery magistrate and senatour in seuerall not aboue the whole Senate But he is aboue the whole Church absolutely and aboue the generall Councell so that he acknowledgeth no iudge on earth aboue him Now the soueraintie of ordinarie power geuen to the Pope ouer all Churches by the Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius was but as it were a Dukedome of Venice ouer euery Church and Bishop in seuerall not ouer the whole Church A signorie of great state but not a Popes Monarchie His Monarchie was neyther allowed by that Councell nor by any other for many ages after nay it was condemned expresly by the Councell of Constance of Basil. The first that allowed it was the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth a thousand fyue hundred and syxtéene yeres after Christ. Hart. Nay the Councel of Florence had allowed it a fourescore yeres before the Greeke and Latin Bishops subscribing both thereto Rainoldes But in such sort that your Roman reader though making the most thereof for the Popes credit was fainâ yet to say that the Councel of Florence did not define it so expressely In truth the Greeke Bishops answered of themselues for they might not treate thereof without consent they sayd of their whole Church but of themselues they answered that the Pope ought to haue the same prerogatiues that he had before the time of their dissension Which is a great presumption that when they subscribed to more then the same it was not of themselues Chiefly sith they came besides so constrainedly to that which they did and refused to obey the Pope when they had done it But Leo the tenth with his Italian faction in Lateran defined it From whom the Uniuersitie of Parise appealed straight to a Councell and condemned his Lateran doctrine and decrée as the Uniuersities of Lâuan of Coolein of Vienna and of Cracouia had done before also The consent therefore of Pastours and Doctours throughout all Christendome hath disallowed the Popes Monarchie And that which the Pastours and Doctors deliuered was the religion of their Churches Whereby you may sée the truth of that I sayd that except the crew of the Italian faction all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie Hart. Truly I must confesse I sée more probabilitie on your side then I did But in that you said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe till this day you forgot your selfe who granted before that by the Trent-doctrine the Pope is aboue the Councell For the doctrine agreed on by the Councell of Trent which you call the of Trent-doctrine is held by Catholike Christians through the whole Church at this day Rainoldes I said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe except the crew of the Italian faction Which spéeche agréeth well with that I said before of the Councell Trent For the Trent-doctrine of the Popes supremacie is that which the Italian faction at Trent did ouerbeaâe the rest in As Claudius Espencaeus a Diuine of Parise a Doctour of your own witnesseth saying that Ludouicus the Cardinall of Arle did complaine iustly at the Councell of Basil that looke what the Italian nation liketh of that is decreed in Councels this is that Helena which did preuaile of late at Trent Now that which the Cardinal Ludouicus spake of was that in Councels not only Bishops but Elders too should haue voices as of old time they had for if Bishops only haue voices sayth the Cardinall then shal that be done that shall seeme good to the Italian nation which alone
trust in him stirre vp our loue towardes him and pray vnto him hartily increase our faith forgeue our sinnes in a word that we may runne the whole race of our life with greater stedfastnes and constancie Then sith these things are thus it is to be concluded that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holinesse euen to saluation but to this saluation they are so lead that they are not frée from all spot and wrincle either of maners or of doctrine Touching which point on the one side in respect of maners Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully holding this hereticall opinion amongst others that the regenerate are able to performe the law of God perfitly which thing it is blasphemous to affirme of any but of Christ onely On the other side in respect of doctrine Hosius the Cardinall hath ouershot him selfe as fowly saying that euerie one of the elect may erre as by S. Cyprians example he sheweth but that all the faithfull gathered together in one cannot erre which is a fansy of a man that would build castles in the ayre It is a matter therefore most sure and out of dout that the elect and chosen may erre as in maners so in doctrine too though in such sort that they shall not die but liue notwithstanding and be cured of their errors Marry that they who are not chosen but onely called may erre euen to death as well in doctrine as in maners in maners it appeereth by the example of Iudas who was brought through couetousnes to betray Christ in doctrine we may sée by those monstrous heretikes of whom S. Iohn saith they went out from vs but they were not of vs. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may erre the one to their triall the other to their destruction and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen that which I proposed is prooued sufficiently that the militant church may erre not onely in maners but in doctrine also If any man for proofe thereof require examples hée hath the churches of Galatia of Corinth of Pergamus of Thyatira of Sardis and of Laâdicea All the which to omit examples of our owne time the scripture witnesseth to haue erred some of them in maners some in doctrine some in both Yea the very church of Ephesus it selfe which Christ shewed to Iohn in the figure of a candlesticke because it held the light of life which Timothee abode in when Paul wrote vnto him that the church is the piller and ground of the truth euen this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by leauing of her first loue that Christ did therefore threaten her he would remoue her candlesticke out of his place vnlesse shee repented She repented not but by litle and litle became woorse woorse and heaped faut vpon faut yea many fautes vpon one both in maners and doctrine Therefore Christ remoued her candlesticke out of his place the chosen who shined with the light of faith he gathered to himselfe the called who hated the light he gaue ouer to darkenes the shadow of death the godly he made pillers in the temple of his God the hypocrites the filth of the temple he cast out to the dunghill of the vngodly and he left the citie of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impietie Now that may befall to euery one as they say which may befall to any one Then looke what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus that may to euery Church But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crased afterwarde quite ouerthrowne and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer Then is there no Church vpon the face of the earth howsoeuer it flatter it selfe with those titles of the candlesticke of Christ piller of the truth there is no Church I say whose bodie that is the chosen may not be ouertaken with faintnesse and darkenesse whose dregges that is the hypocrites may not be consumed with rottennesse and destruction finally whose whole frame constitution may not be depriued both of strength and beautie I know that the Papists answere hereunto that the militant Church may erre for the flockes the people that are in it but the guides and Pastours whose assemblie is called the Church by Christ saying tell the Church can not Which is false and fond For as there are sheepe and goates in the flockes so the Pastours of them are good hirelinges or theeues The good ones do slumber sometimes as the Apostles the hirelinges fly assoone as the woolfe commeth the theeues come to steale to kill and to destroy Wherefore no Pastour is exempt from danger of erring more or lesse And for the former point that they may erre in maners what néede I bring Apostles or Prophets to proue it The complaint of Bernard is fresh I would to God it were not too fresh there creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church Which wordes being spoken in reproof of the life and conuersation of the Prelates that is of the Bishops Pastours of the Church doo shew that not a common disease but a rot and that not small but ougly and that creeping on not kéeping at a stay may infect not onely this or that member but the whole body of Pastors for their maners Now that they may also be ouerseene in doctrine and erre in pointes of faith it is plainely proued by those Corinthian Pastours who built hay and stubble vpon the foundation that S. Paul had layde by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth that there should be false teachers in the new Church as in the old there were false prophets by Samosatenus Arius Nestorius Pastors of famous Churches and autors of most heinous heresies yea by the Bishops of the whole world who all were Arians in a maner when there were scarce left a few Catholiks when the whole world did grone wonder at it selfe that it was become an Arian But the Papistes will reply that when they say the Church caÌnot erre they meane the Church in that sense in which the Schoole-men call it representatiue that is Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a generall Councell What And hath that Church I meane a generall Councell this priuilege that it can not erre They hold so in deede But what will they say of so many Councels of the Arians which caused Gregorie Nazianzene to despaire that any good would be doon by Councels But they deny these to haue béene lawfull Councels What will they answere then to those which them selues confesse to haue béene lawfull The Councell of Laodicea though a prouinciall Councell yet allowed by a generall did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the olde Church had
you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
Peters patrimonie Their vsurpations tyrannicall S. Peters royalties Their good will His fauour Their communion His peace Their indignation His curse Their signet His ring Their closet His See Their Citie His borough Their poll mony euen Peter pence too Yea it may be that shortly they will take vp Peter for a surname as the Romane Emperours did the name of Caesar. For a famous Lawier Patrone of the Papacy saith that the Popes may al be called Peters And our countriman who was sent to display the Popes banner chalenge highest honour for him doth name him the Bishop of the first See that is to say Peter And Cardinal Hosius one of the Popes lieutenants in his Councell of Trent doth write that there is onely one vniuersall patriarke Who Peter of Rome and that Peter of Rome did send his messengers vnto English French Dutch and other nations to call them to the Councell of Trent Not Peter of Bethsaida but Peter of Rome did it Hart. These thinges are small the most of them and vsed to encrease a reuerend estimation and opinion of that Sée to the which our Sauior committed the principalitie and gouernment of his church As for the pointes that séeme greater in the words of Leo they may be defended For where he saieth that Christ tooke Peter into the fellowship of the indiuisible vnitie hée might meane vnitie in will not in substance as Christ doth pray for his disciples Holy father keepe them in thy name that they may be one as we are Where he doth honour Peter with the title of my Lord it is a common title and giuen men of state both spirituall and temporall yea Mary Magdalen called him Lord the word in Latin is the same whom shée supposed to be a gardiner The like might be said for the defense of the rest with as great probabilitie and perhaps greater then you haue to mislike them Rainoldes The smaller thinges which you call are some of them small I graunt but like small holes in ships at the which a great deale of water wil come in inough to drowne the shippe if they be left open as long as these haue beene in the shippe of the church They had encreased such an opinion of the Pope of Rome Saint Peters See as they tearmed it that although hee practised not a principalitie geueÌ him by Christ but an outragious tiranny vsurped by him selfe ouer Kings and Nations yet neither kings nor Nations almost durst speake against him at the least resiste him For if they did offend the Pope they thought they did offende S. Peter Now of S. Peter they were taught that he is porter of heauen gates They feared the porter would let none in sauing the Pope his vicars frends So to get eternal life they serued and pleased and féeed the Pope least that if he shoulde frowne vpon them Saint Peters fauour should be lost UUherfore how small soeuer those things of Peter séeme in trifling kindes of common spéeches they brought no small aduantage to Peter of Romes Court and wealth into his Treasurie It is recorded of King Oswy in our English Story that when vpon a controuersy about the celebrating of Easter there was a Synode assembled and the one part alleadged that they followed the East Churches which had receiued their rite of Iohn the Euangelist the Disciple whom Christ loued the other part replyed that they followed the Church of Rome which had receiued theirs of Peter to whom Christ gaue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the King tooke vp the matter and iudged with the Church of Rome For I tell you quoth he that Peter is the porter whom I wil not gainesay nay I wil obey his orders in all respectes as farre as I skill and can leaste when I come to the doores of the kingdome of heauen there be none to open if hee be displeased who doth keepe the keyes This grosse imagination of the keyes and porter and corrupt opinion of power to shut and open committed vnto Peter only which the good king conceyued of simplicitie his Cleargie should haue taught him better but they did all agrée vnto it and their successors praise King Oswy the Captaines of the Church of Rome perceyuing it to be commodious for the aduauncement of their kingdome and conquering of all the earth haue nourished very cunningly by their lessons their titles their armes their ensignes their pictures and other legions of policies all in S. Peters name And on the credite of S. Peter they haue pronounced that all ordinances of their See must be receiued euen as if Peter had confirmed them They haue taughte that their Church persisteth pure from all error by the grace and helpe of Peter They haue decreed that although it lay a yoake almost intolerable on vs yet we must beare it patiently in the remembrance of S. Peter They haue set abroach in the donation of Constantine that he gaue them his owne crowne of golde most pure and pretious stones to weare in honor of S. Peter and that hee held the bridle and stirrope of the Popes horse in reuerence of S. Peter They haue made the Emperour as the Popes vasall to become S. Peters knight and take his oath vnto S. Peter that hee will restore S. Peters lande vnto the Pope if he get any of it and wil helpe the Pope to defende S. Peters land They haue brought Archbishops to thinke their power is nothing vnlesse the Pope do send them from S. Peters body a pall which hath the fulnesse of the pontifical duetie Bishops they haue bound to promise by their oath allegiance and fealtie to Saint Peter the Romane Church and their Lord the Pope Yea from Bishops they haue brought the oath vnto them who receyue dignities And that which passeth all the rest whereas the forme of the oath in the Canon Law doth bynde them to defend regulas sanctorum patrum the rules of the holy fathers the Pope hath heretofore and now doth put in stéed thereof regalia sancti Petri the roialties of S. Peter Such praies your Eagles take though you do count them flyes But let them be flyes or fowles I wil not striue Onelie this I say let the wise consider it and marke the degrées of encrease in the Papacie and they shal perceiue in this what shall I call it of Saint Peters name that although it were not any of the greatest it was one of the finest trickes of spiritual coosinage that hath enriched the Pope and set the Church of Rome so hie Now to come from these lesser vnto the greater pointes in Leo I know if a man list to be contentious it is an easie matter to say somewhat probably for the defense of his words Yea though hee had named
is called into question euery knée must bow in heauen in earth and vnder the earth and yéeld it vnto him whom God hath set at his right hand aboue all powers and principalities Wherefore I say not if a maÌ if Leo whom hope of profit might blind taking himselfe for Peters heire but if an Angell from heauen do giue it vnto Peter shall I say with the Apostle Let him be accursed I will not take on me that sentence but this I will say the sinne is verie heinous How much more heinous that it is pretended in shew vnto Peter in déede by Peters name conueied to the Pope For as boldly as Leo applieth it to Peter so boldly doth a Cardinall apply it to the Pope And a Bishop venturing further then the Cardinall not content to vouch that the Pope is Melchisedec excelling the rest incoÌparably in priesthood affirmeth farther of him that he is head of all Bishops from whom they do grow as members grow from the head and of whose fulnesse they do all receiue Of Christ it is written that of his fulnesse we do all receiue that he is a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedec that he is the head of whom al the bodie being coupled and knit togither by euerie ioint giuen to furnish it through the effectuall power in the measure of euerie part receiueth encrease of the bodie But to giue these priuiledges vnto the Pope that he is Melchisedec the head of al Bishops and of his fulnesse they doe all receiue O Lord in how miserable state was the Church when this did go for catholike doctrine Was not the prophecie then fulfilled of the man who should sit in the Temple of God as God Hart. I maruell what you meane to take vs vp so sharply as for a heinous matter that we call the Pope head of the church whereas you giue that title your selues to the Quéene whom it may lesse agrée to So one that preached to vs hâre not long agoe in the Tower-chappell did make a long talke to proue that Christ onely is head of the church and charged vs with blasphemy for saying that the Pope is head yet him selfe praying for the Quéenes maiesty did name her supreme head of the church of England wherin we smiled at his folly For if it be no blasphemy to call the Quéene head why should it bée blasphemy to call the Pope head Rainoldes We giue vnto her Highnes the title not of head but of Supreme gouernour and that vpon how iust grounde of Gods word and high commission from the highest it shall in due place be shewed if you will As for the Preacher whom you mention I had rather you would deale with me by publike monuments and writings of our church as I doe with you then by reports of priuate spéeches for perhaps you fansied more then he said perhaps he said so much that you were glad to smile it out with that fansie But if your report of his Sermon be true it is likely that he gaue the name of head to the Quéene in the same meaning that we doe the title of supreme gouernour which I will proue to be godly and he denied the Pope to be head in an other meaning in which that name belongeth vnto Christ alone condemning them of blasphemy who giue it him so And they who did smile hereat as at folly because they were Papists might if they were Painims smile at the scriptures too which doe giue the title of Gods vnto gouernors and yet condemne them who haue other Gods beside the Lord. For if it be no blasphemy to call the Magistrates Gods why should it bée blasphemy to call Mercurius and Iupiter Gods Is not this your reason But our doctrine as it is holy and true so it is plaine if men will rather learne it humbly as Christians then laugh at it as Lucians or as Iulians reuolt from it For wée teach that Christ is the head of the church as hee doth quicken it with his spirite as he is the light the health the life of it and is present alwayes to fill it with his blessinges and with his grace to gouerne it In the which respects because the Scripture giueth the name of head to Christ alone by an excellency thereof we so conclude that he is the onely head of the church For otherwise we know that in an other kinde and degrée of resemblance they may be called heads who haue any preeminence of place or gouernment ouer others As in the Hebrue text we reade the heads of the Leuites for the chéefe of them and the priest the head that is to say the chiefe Priest After the which sort I will not contend if you entitle Bishops heads of the churches as Athanasius doth and Gregorie when he had named our Sauiour Christ the head of the vniuersall church hée calleth Christes ministers as it were heads Paul Andrew Iohn heads of particular flocks yet members of the church all vnder one head Hart. You graunt in effect as much as I require For if either Bishoppe or Cardinall haue giuen that vnto the Pope which is due to Christ as he is head properlie wée maintaine them not UUe say that as pastors all who haue the charge to gouerne the church are heads after a sort that is improperly as I termed it so the Pope who is the chiefest of them all is the supreme head And in this sense you must take vs when we do entitle the Bishop of Rome the supreme head of the church Rainoldes I will take you so Howbeit for as much as the name of head hath sundrie significations in this kind of spéeches as the scripture sheweth God is the head of Christ Christ is the head of man man is the head of the woman the head of Syria Damascus the head of Damascus Retzin the king the head of the tribes of Israel and the heads of housholdes the eldest and the head of the people the formost and the head of the mountaines the highest and the head of the spices the chiefest in offenders the heads the principall and amongst Dauids captaines the heads the most excellent some of the which import a preeminence of other things not of power and they that do of power some import a greater power some a lesser I would vnderstand particularlie what power you giue vnto the Pope by calling him supreme head least afterward we vary about the meaning of it Hart. The power which we meane to him by this title is that the gouernement of the whole church of Christ throughout the world doth depend of him in him doth lye the power of iudging and determining all causes of faith of ruling councels as President and ratifying their decrées of ordering and confirming Bishops and pastors of deciding causes brought him by appeales from
all the coastes of the earth of reconciling any that are excommunicate of excommunicating suspending or inflicting other censures and penalties on any that offend yea on Princes and nations finallie of all things of the like sort for gouerning of the church euen what soeuer toucheth either preaching of doctrine or practising of discipline in the church of Christ. Rainoldes And all this you meane by the Popes supremacie A power verie great in weight and large in compasse for one man to wéeld yea for one Apostle much more for one Bishop Bishop of Rome is he or Bishop of the whole world You said that you call him a head improperlie I wéene you giue this power improperlie to him also For out of all doubt you can neuer proue that it belongeth to him properlie The second Chapter The promise of the supremacie pretended to be made by Christ vnto Peter 1 in the wordes Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke will I build my church 2 to thee wil I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Of expounding the scriptures how the right sense of them may be known and who shall iudge therof 3 what is meant by the keyes the power of binding and loosing promised by Christ to Peter and in Peter to all the Apostles HART How large and great soeuer this power and supremacie doth séeme in your eyes it belongeth properlie to the Bishop of Rome And that is alreadie prooued by the reason which before I made S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of all Bishops and by consequent of their dioceses that is of all the church of Christ. Rainoldes Remember in what sense you take the name of head and I denie both the propositions of this argument Hart. I will proue them both and first the former Christ did promise Peter that he would make him head therefore hee did make him Rainoldes He did not promise him Hart. Christ did say vnto him Tu es Petrus super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam Thou art Peter and vpon this peter will I build my church Therefore he did promise him Rainoldes The reason doth not folow But why do you english it so Thou art Peter and vpon this peter Your doctors were wont to cite it Thou art Peter vpon this rocke and to that rocke you tyed all Doo you feare shipwracke there now Hart. No syr But to make our anker-holde the surer the which is fastned on S. Peter Doctor Allen thought good that in the translation of the new testament into our tongue which wée were about at Rhemes it should be thus englished Thou art Peter and vpon this peter The which I rather folow then the other of the rocke because it is agréeable vnto the originall Rainoldes It is not For the originall is the Gréeke text and that hath ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã wherto your latin olde translation agreeth with Petrus and petra as your selfe alleaged it The wordes of both which though they differ not so much as Peter and rocke yet they are not one as your Peter and peter Hart. Although the Gréeke wordes ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã and ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã differ in termination yet they are one in meaning and signify the same thing For as ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã signifyeth a rocke so doth ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã in the Athenian language And it must be noted that Christ spake in Hebrue or rather in the Syriake tongue wherein the name that hée gaue Peter is Cephas Now in the Syriake translation of the testament that word is the same without difference in both places For thus are the words ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã as if a man would say Thou art Cephas and vpon this Cephas or Thou art Rocke and vpon this rocke For Cephas in the Syriake doth signifie a rocke as Guido Fabricius a learned linguist sheweth wherfore the meaning of the word ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã must be the same in greeke And so we may kéepe it well in both places Thou art Peter and vpon this peter Rainoldes The wordes which you alleage are not of the Syriake translation they are Hebrue But as the Hebrue ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã is one in both places so the Syriake I graunt hath ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã in theÌ both And I gladlie take it because our Sauiour Christ spake in that tongue as an exposition of his wordes to Peter Yet I note by the way that although your councell of Trent hath allowed the latin olde traÌslation alone as authenticall and hath decréed thereof that no man shall dare or presume vnder any pretense to reiect it notwithstanding you your selues will depart from it and that not onelie to the originall which wee should not bee suffred but also to translations if they maye séeme to make for you in any point more then your olde doth Hart. We do not reiect that authenticall translation but open the sense of it by comparing it with the greeke and the gréeke with the Syriake Rainoldes But if we should doo so in any point against you this answere would not serue vs it would be accounted a colour or pretense such as your Councell hath condemned Hart. You doe vs great iniurie in that you séeme to make it all one to reiect the authenticall Latin and to take aduantage for our selues out of the originall textes Rainoldes For your selues Nay I make not that all one I sayd If we should doo so not If you should do so For doo you what you list and all must be soothed as agréeing with your Latin and opening the sense of it But if we should take aduantage for our selues by the originall textes our aduantage would be nipped on the head as a pretense For example Andreas Masius a learned man of yours hath written a Commentarie on the booke of Iosua in the which he launceth your authenticall Latin almost in euerie Chapter yea he saith that S. Jerom if hee be the Authour of it doeth seeme to haue translated wittingly a place against the meaning of the Hebrue that he might vouch a fansy of his owne thereby Yet the Popish Censour who allowed it to the print witnesseth of that Commentarie that it lighteneth and openeth the common olde translation greatly Let vs doe much lesse let vs but raze the credite of it and will you giue that Censure of vs Nay if wée do note that where your old translation hath of the frame or imagination of mans hart that it is prone to euill the Hebrue text hath not prone to euill but euill the Censure of Coolein will answere that it is farre better to say as your olde translation saith prone to euill and will fetch in also the Rabbins of the Iewes not to
Rainoldes Some such thing it is that your men would say But to confesse mine owne ignorance I do not vnderstand what they meane by it Which I should perhaps be ashamed off if you who handle it your selues did vnderstand it or gaue vs sense and reason of it For if all the power which Bishops haue as Bishops be the power of the keyes and the Apostles as Apostles had all the power of the keyes committed vnto them by Christ both the which things the Scriptures proue you disproue not then was there no power which they might receiue of Peter as Bishops and therefore they did not receiue any of him nor were inferiour to him therein Yet this is the very foundation of the Papacie but laid on such sand that the maister builders who trauaile most in laying it do reele like dronken men about it too and fro and strooken with a blindnes as the Sodomites at Lots dooâe they are wearied in seeking of it Cardinall Turrecremata the chiefest autour of the fansie is of this opinion that Christ brought the rest of his Apostles to bishoply dignity by Peter euen as he lead his people through the wildernes by the hand of Moses Aaron For him selfe made Peter onely a Bishop immediately and Peter preferred the rest first Iohn next Iames then others as the Cardinall gesseth by probabilities of dreames some in theCanon law some of his own braine Turrian the Iesuit a man with whom such dreames commonly are oracles though he allow Peter to be the father of the Apostles yet thinking this maner of fathering him to be absurd he saith that the Apostles were all ordeined Bishops by the laying as it were of the fyry tongues vpon them wheÌ they receiued the holy Ghost And this he proueth by S. Ierom S. Denys and other Fathers Of whose opinion it ensueth that graunting the Apostles were ordeined Bishops as in a generall sense in which their charge is called a bishoply charge they were yet they were ordained of God immediately as well as Peter was and not of God by Peter D. Stapleton vncertaine how to beare him selfe betwéene these two opinions the later being truer the former safer for the Pope he faltereth in his spéech as though according to the prouerbe hee had a woolfe by the eares whom neither he durst let go out of his hands nor holde for feare of danger For of the one side he is loth to graunt the truth lest it should preiudice the title of the Pope yet loth of the other side to deny it also because he feareth the people First therfore he saith that the keyes which signifie the ful power of gouernment ecclesiasticall were giuen to Peter onely Then he confesseth that all the Apostles were sent by Christ with full power yea with power most full and equall vnto Peters power From hence he turneth backe and taketh vp his olde song that Christ gaue all power ecclesiasticall to Peter onely and so by him to others Which string because it giueth a very swéete sound he harpeth on it often Afterward either doubting the conscience of weake Catholikes or the euill tonges of Caluinists who fauour the Apostles and cannot heare them so debased he saith that the Apostles were sent immediately of God with full power vnto al nations Yet by and by falling againe vnto his giddines through some pang belike of his holinesse displeasure which might be stirred by such spéeches he pronounceth that the spring of honour and power is deriued from Peter alone to all the rest And thus he goeth on through the whole discourse both in this and the rest of his Doctrinall Principles enterfeiring as it were at euery other pace and hewing hoofe against hoofe But so will the Lord confound the toongs of them who doo build vp Babylon Yet here for these cuttings wherwith he gasheth himself he thinketh that they may be healed with a distinction taken vp in Cardinall Turrecrematas shop of a twofold power the one Apostolike the other Bishoply the rest of the Apostles to haue béene inferior to Peter in the Bishoply though equall in the Apostolike and all to haue receiued the Apostolike power immediatly of Christ the rest as namely Iames their Bishoply power of Peter But two learned Friers Sixtus Senensis and Franciscus Victoria men of better reading and iudgement then either he or Turrecremata haue cast off this quirke as a rotten drugge before Stapleton tooke it vp Victoria by shewing out of the Scriptures that the Apostles receiued all their power immediatly of Christ. Sixtus by declaring out of the Fathers that in the power of Apostleship and order so he calleth those two powers Paul was equall to Peter and the rest to them both Which case he thought to be so cléere that despairing of helpe for the Papacie by Peters eyther Bishoply power or Apostolike he added thereunto a third kind of power euen the power of kingdome therein to set Peter ouer the Apostles that so the Pope too might raigne ouer Bishops It must be knowne saith he that Peter had a threefold power one of the Apostleship an other of order and the third of kingdome Touching the Apostleship that is the duetie of teaching and care of preaching the Gospell Paul as it is rightly noted by Ierom was not inferiour to Peter because Paule was chosen to the preaching of the Gospell not by Peter but by God euen as Peter was Touching the power which is giuen in the Sacrament of order Ierom hath said wel that al the Apostles receiued the keyes equally yea that they all as Bishops were equall in degree of priesthood the spirituall power of that degree But touching the power of kingdome that principall authoritie ouer all Bishops and teachers thereof hath Ierom said best that Peter was chosen amongst the twelue Apostles and made the head of al that by his supreme authoritie eminent power aboue the rest the contentions of the church might be taken vp and all occasion of schismes remoued Now if you will vse this aide of kingly power to fortifie the Pope with we will trie the strength thereof when you bring it In the meane season for the Bishoply power which Peter is imagined to haue bestowed on the Apostles as the Pope would on Bishops it was but a Cardinals fetch to serue the turne of his Lord the Pope the learnedst of your Iesuites and Friers dare not take it your Doctor faine would haue it but toucheth it so nicely as though he were afraide of it If you will stand vnto it and holde it with the Cardinall let vs sée your warrant where did the Apostles receiue it of Peter At what time In what maner Who is a witnesse of it Hart. They did not receiue it But the order was that they should haue done Rainoldes Was that the order Why did
are not Pastors by the former sense by the later whosoeuer are equall in the Apostleship must néedes consequently be equal in the Pastorship too your distinction that they were equal in the one not in the other hath no more reason then an other of D. Stapletons who saith that they were equall in power of gouernment but not of regiment Hart. You depraue his wordes For he saith that this is the greatest difference betweene Peter and the rest of the Apostles that Christ gaue to Peter the power of regiment or to commaund to the Apostles only the power of gouernmeÌt or to execute because in gouernment of the church Peter must prescribe what should be done and they must execute it Rainoldes I depraue them not vnlesse he speake sottishly he knoweth not him selfe what For his drift is to proue that the Apostles all had equall power giuen them by Christ but with a threefold difference of which this is one that they had equall power forsooth to doo and execute all things that appertaine to the building of the Church but so that Peter had the power of regiment to commaund the rest of the Apostles the power of gouernment to execute Which is as ridiculous as if a man would say that the Queenes Maiestie and the Sheriffes of London haue equall power both yet with a difference to witte that her Maiestie hath the power of regiment that is to commaund when a traitor shall suffer and the Sheriffes the power of gouernment that is to execute that which shee commandeth If you should preach thus in London our Londoners would smile at it I thinke that this heresie hath made our wits dull Your Catholike distinctions are so sharpe and subtill that wee cannot conceiue them Hart. You may flout as well if you list at S. Gregory who though he vse not the wordes of this distinction yet he hath the sense of it saying that Andrewe Iames and Iohn were heads of seuerall congregations and all members of the Church vnder one head Peter Rainoldes If I should touch Gregory for this I should do him wrong as great wrong almost as your Doctor doth who alleageth it out of Gregory For though he were him-selfe a Bishop of Rome and a well-willer of S. Peters yet in that epistle whence those wordes are cited he calleth Christ the head of the vniuersal church Peter the chiefest member and others members of it also D. Stapleton thinking it a small thing that Peter should be counted as the chiefest member vnles he be the head too hath vpon mentioÌ of the one head cogged in the name of Peter like a cunning gamster to helpe a dye at a neede Alas a man must enterprise somewhat in such cases For you were all vndone if this game should be lost Hart. I maruaile that you blush not to vse such vnciuill spéeches and tauntes against D. Stapleton a man of great learning euen in your own iudgement Rainoldes A man not of so great learning as reading if you wil take my iudgement in it Yet I wish for his own sake that his learning were as good as it is great But for the vnciuill speeches and tauntes which I vse against him weigh the occasions and circumstances of them If he haue not deserued as the Scribes and Pharises let me be rebuked when I touch him as Christ them But you deale herein as Tully reporteth that Athenagoras did of his fault he said nothing he complained of his punishment It is lawfull for D. Stapleton to take vp me with his tauntes of Caluinist Anglocaluinist Puritan and that vndeseruedly But if I reproue on iust cause with plaine termes his cogging corrupting belying sclaundering abusing both of God and men it is a hainous matter and to bee blushed at Let them blush M. Hart who loue or make lies either by committing such shamefull trickes of falshood or by partaking with them It is no shame for me to note them and reprooue them Hart. Why Are you sure that there is no copie of S. Gregories workes which hath the name of Peter inserted in that place Rainoldes I thinke that none hath I am sure that none should haue For in an other epistle of the same argument wheÌ he had said that al Christians do cleaue to only one head he addeth Imeane to Christ and hauing in this same epistle put that difference betwéene Christ and Peter that Peter is a member Christ the head of the church he sheweth manifestly whom he meant by head A thing so apparant that Cardinall Cusanus doth cite those wordes of Gregory with Christes name inserted either as hauing read them so in some copie or to open the meaning of them How much the more shamefull is Stapletons dealing who foysteth in Peter to set by that conueiance the Pope in Christes roome But you were best to go forward with the scriptures and then when you haue found nothing in them come to the Fathers after Hart. You are very peremptorie still in your spéeches I wil find in them as much for the substance as I haue affirmed For howsoeuer the wordes of Pastorall charge and the Apostleship the power of regiment and gouernment agree with my meaning my meaning I am sure agreeth with the scriptures and standeth with good reason Rainoldes Then you shall do well hereafter to refraine from such foggy distinctions deuised to choke the blinde who eate many a flie and expresse your meaning in cleare and playne wordes least we suspect that you fansie darkenesse more then light Hart. This is my meaning that Peter had authoritie ouer the Apostles to féede them to rule them to be a Pastor of them which the rest of the Apostles had neither ouer him nor one ouer an other Rainoldes So. Now make proofe of it Hart. Christ did say to Peter Doost thou loue me Feede my sheepe Whereof thus I reason Christ did charge Peter to feede his sheepe all euen all his shéepe without exception But the Apostles were sheepe of Christ. Therefore he had the charge of feeding them also Rainoldes Christ saide to the Apostles Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospell to euery creature Whereof thus I reason Christ did charge his Apostles to preach the Gospell to euerie creature to euerie one without exception But Peter was a creature Therefore they had the charge of preaching to him also Now if I would play with wordes as your men doo I could shew that this reason must ouermaster yours in the plaine field For Christ said not to Peter feed all my sheepe but he said to the Apostles preach to euerie creature Hart. But you should consider that Christ giuing that commandement to Peter gaue it with a difference betwéene the shéepe and the lambes as S. Ambrose hath noted well set me downe I pray his owne wordes in Latin tertiò Dominus interrogauit noniam
agnos vt primò quodam lacte pascendos nec ouiculas vt secundò sed oues pascere iubetur perfectiores vt perfectior gubernaret That is to say When the Lord had asked Peter the third time Doost thou loue me hee is commanded now to feede not the lambes as at the first time who must be fedde with certaine milke not the litle sheepe as the seconde time but to feede the sheepe that he a man more perfit might gouerne the more perfit So that the whole flocke of Christ was committed to Peter to be fedde as well the small as the great both the lay men who as lambes are fedde themselues and féede not others the Priests and Clergie who as sheepe doo féede the lambes but are fedde of the shepheard Rainoldes The lambes and the sheepe doo signifie two kindes of Christians the one yonger and tenderer which néedeth to be taught the first principles of religion as it were to be fedde with milke the other riper and elder fit to learne the déeper mysteries of faith to be fedde with strong meat This S. Ambrose noted well in the commandement that Christ gaue to Peter Though the difference which he maketh betwéene the second and the third the litle sheepe and the sheepe was either an ouersight in the Gréeke copie or a fansie of some interpreter Which I would not mention but that you bid me set downe his owne wordes in Latin as though there were some mysterie in them which yet your selues are wont to make no account of vnlesse your Roman reader hath spied more in it who saith that the text ought to be corrected and read as Ambrose cited it But your glose of the lay-men to be signified by lambes and by the sheepe the Priestes and Clergie dooth varie from the text not of Christ onely but of Ambrose too For wheras they speake of the lambes and the sheepe both which the flocke consisteth of you interpret their words of the sheepe and the shepheards And whereas all Pastors are bounde to feede both sheepe and lambes you make as though the rest must féede none but lambes and all the sheepe were Peters From dreaming whereof S. Ambrose was so farre that he saith of the shéepe which Christ commanded to be fedde Peter did not only receiue the charge of them but himselfe and all Bishops receiued it with Peter Wherefore you should consider that in Christes commission vnto the Apostles they are not considered as shéepe but as shepheards and therefore not them-selues to be fed of any but all to féede others So when they abode togither in Ierusalem they sed the church in common with the doctrine of the Apostles not Peter them and they the rest And when they went thence into other countries they went not as shéepe with Peter their shepheard but as seuerall shepheards to shéepe of all nations Hart. Be it so that Christ spake in his commission to them as to shepheards Yet were they also shéepe of the flocke of Christ. And therefore he might well appoint a shepheard ouer them Rainoldes And was not Peter also a shéepe of Christs flock And must not our Sauiour appoint by this reason a shepheard ouer him also For if all sheepe need it why not S. Peter If some néed it not why the Apostles But it is true that as they were shéepe so néeded they sometimes to bee fedde the best of them and this did Christ prouide for though not with your policie not by setting one as Pastor ouer all but by geuing charge of euery one to other For as S. Paule said to the Elders of Ephesus Take heed vnto your selues and to all the flocke charging them with care not of their flocke onely but of themselues too all of all and ech of other in like sort the Apostles who had charge of all in that they were shepheardes were to be looked too in that they were sheepe to be admonished taught fedde not euery one of Peter but euery one of other yea euen Peter also him selfe if néede required Hereof their practise is a proofe For wheÌ Peter went not with a right foote to the truth of the Gospell S. Paule reproued him openly before all men for it But to reproue him was to féede him Therefore S. Paule did feede S. Peter Hart. S. Paule reproued him not by authority but of curtesie and Peter yelded to it not of duetie but of modestie As now any Bishop may reproue the Pope and he will harken to it patiently and mildly and yet impaire not his supremacie Rainoldes I acknowledge a distinctioÌ of the Romain style which in the booke of Ceremonies of the church of Rome in the chapter that the Pope doth do reuereÌce to no man saith that notwithstanding the maiestie and solemnitie which he vseth to highest states in entertaining of them yet Popes are accustomed wheÌ they are not in their poÌtificals to bow their head a litle as it were rendring reuerence to Cardinalles and to mightie Princes when they come priuatly and doo reuerence vnto him Marry this not of duetie but of laudable curtesie The Pope shewed not you this curtesie M. Hart when he admitted you to kisse his holinesse foote it was not for his state to doo it Yet hath he so bewitched your senses therewith that you to render him not duetie but curtesie forget both curtesie and duetie to Paule the Apostle the chosen instrument of God and penneman of his holy spirite For S. Paule mentioneth his reproofe purposely to proue that he was Peters equall in authoritie against the false Apostles who sought to discredite the doctrine which he taught by debaâing him and setting others farre aboue him You say that he reproued Peter of curtesie and not by authoritie Wherby marke it well you say in effect that he made a foolish reason to proue a false conclusion And if he were inferiour to Peter in authority as he was by your answeare what meant he to say that he accounted himselfe nothing inferiour to the very chiefe Apostles You adde that any Bishoppe may so reproue the Pope Your Thomas saith no. For he writeth that this fact of Paule reprouing Peter exceedeth the measure of brotherly correction which subiectes owe vnto their prelates because he did it before the multitude Though otherwise him selfe to vphold the Papacy vseth such shiftes as you do maketh his account of Paule as the subiect and Peter as the prelate according to the Canon lawe But his owne sentence may serue for an axe to behead your common errour For either S. Paule in so reprouing Peter did transgresse his duetie or he was his equall in authoritie not his subiect But to say the former is a blasphemous spéech of Porphyrie The latter therefore is true And so your answere falleth of authoritie and curtesie Hart. I graunt that S. Paule was equall in
that in place of greatest force as when he saith This is my commandement that ye loue one an other as I haue loued you greater loue then this hath no man when a man bestoweth his life for his friendes Whereas S. Iohn therefore vttered Christes demand by the one worde and Peters answere by the other it séemeth that he vsed the wordes indifferently as hauing both the same meaning Which is proued also by the consent and iudgement of the Syriake translation that hath the same worde for them both Howbeit if the wordes haue a difference of sense it agreeth better with the modestie of Peter to haue saide lesse then more of his loue chiefly sith hee had fallen by saying too much of it and had by triall felt his frailtie But if he did answere as you imagine him Dost thou loue me Peter Lord I loue thee feruently yet this feruent loue inferreth no supremacy ouer the rest of the Apostles For what he reporteth of his owne loue the same doth Christ witnesse of theirs or rather more if we would pricke it vp as you doo euen that his Father loueth them because that they loued him In both the which branches that same worde is vsed which by your fansie doth signifie feruent loue when it may serue the Popes vantage Hart. We doo not relye so much on that word as on the other two ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã and ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã but chiefly on the word ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã For although to feed which is meant by ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã doth import much yet to feede and rule which ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã signifieth hath a greater force as those places shew where that worde is vsed Thou shalt rule them with a rodde of yron and he shall rule my people Israel Wherefore Christ committed a soueraine power to Peter in that he said ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã not onely to feede but to rule and gouerne too Rainoldes Then it was not Peters duetie to rule the lambes but the shéepe onely For Christ doth say ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã speaking of the shéepe and of the lambes ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã Hart. So I said Yet that word which he vseth of the lambes he vseth of the shéepe also Whereby this is shewed as I touched briefly out of o D. Stapleton that lambes must be onely meated and fedde of Peter through the common foode of doctrine to be looked for from him as supreme father of the houshold and from his Sée and they must be ruled of their next and proper Pastors whom immediatly they are vnder but sheepe that is to say the greater and perfiter Bishops themselues and Pastors are committed to him not onely to be fedde with the common doctrine but also to be ruled of him more immediatly as of the supreme Pastor of Pastors Rainoldes So your Doctor noteth I grant and you touched it But you were best recall it or els this fine fansie of that Gréeke word as it is farre fetched so will be deare bought For it must cost the Pope halfe of his supremacy Hart. Why doo you say so Rainoldes Why Are not Princes comprised in the name of lambes by your iudgement as Bishops and Pastors in the name of sheepe Hart. They are and what then Rainoldes The Pope then hath nothing to doo with the ruling and gouerning of Princes much lesse with deposing them For Peter had commission you say to feede onely and not to rule the lambes Hart. But they must be ruled of their next Pastors and so by consequent of the Pope because their Pastors must be ruled of him as Pastor of Pastors Rainoldes Nay but the Pastors are not to be ruled by the Pope neither if this fansie hold For in your Latin authenticall translation the clawse which doth answere to the Gréeke word hath not sheep but lambes WhervpoÌ your Rhemists also note the same as spokeÌ of lambs ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã feed rule So that howsoeuer he lay hold on others by that Gréeke word compared with your Latin text yet his rule gouernment of Bishops Pastors is shakeÌ of therby And this is as much as half of his supremacy nay all by a consequent For his claime lieth first ouer Bishops and then by means of Bishops ouer the whole church Thus while you deuise by quirkes of your owne to vnderprop the Pope you lay him on the ground do him more harme by crasing of the word ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã then good by fortifying of ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã For although it signifie to feede in such sort as shepheards do their sheepe and so consequently to rule them and guide them in all respects as shepheards doo for the preseruing of them yet that charge of ruling belonged not to Peter alone peculiarly but was and is common vnto all shepheards Our English toong answereth not to the felicitie of the gréeke and latin in making euident proofe hereof For in the gréeke wordes ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã and in the Latin pastor pasco the matter would be plainer But yet in our English a shepheard and to feede in that sort with ruling are yoked so togither by lincke as I may terme it of reason and sense though it appeare not in lincke and likenesse of words that as many as are called to the function of shepheards and Pastors of the church they all are bound by duetie to féede and rule so The proofe whereof we haue in Peter and Paule who mouing the Pastors whom they cal Elders to attend their charge the one beseecheth them to feede the flock of God which dependeth on them the other telleth them that the holy Ghost hath made them ouerseers to feede the church of God both vsing the same worde ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã as betokening the common charge of shepheards Yea Christ him selfe speaking to the Angel that is the shepherd of the church of Thyatira doth promise that hee who ouercommeth and keepeth his workes vnto the ende shall haue power giuen vnto him ouer nations and he shall rule them with a rodde of yron So that euen there where you note that word importeth greatest power of beating downe the wicked Christ applieth it to all his faithfull seruants and not to Peter onely Wherefore if it were so that hee had ment more by saying ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã theÌ by ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã in his charge to Peter yet he meant no more then that which belongeth to euery shepheards charge for the shéepe which God ordeineth him to féede But in truth if your itche of wresting holy scriptures to priuate fansies were healed you woulde rather thinke that S. Iohn did vtter one sense with sundry wordes as in the Lordes demaunde of Peter Doost thou loue mee so in his commandement to Peter Feede my sheepe
For the Syriake translation which your selfe alleaged to proue that the Gréeke wordes ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã though different in sound yet are one in sense because our Sauiour spake in the Syriake toong and in the Syriake both are ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã expresseth here also the two sundry Gréeke words by one ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã as if that our Sauiour had vsed the same word and meant the same thing in both Which interpretation should bée of greater credit with you in this point then it was in that because your authenticall Latin translation which there dissented from it agreeth with it here expressing likewise both by pasce Unlesse you will say that your authenticall Latin doth not expresse fully the meaning of the Gréeke Hart. A translation cannot expresse the force alwayes of wordes in the originall as in Ecclesiasticus it is obserued of the Hebrue Rainoldes You say true How much the more were they to blame who decréed that a translation should be accounted as authenticall in all Diuinitie-exercises and no man vnder any pretense to reiect it But if there had bene such force and importance in the Gréeke ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã your Latin translator could haue expressed it easily For otherwhere he doth translate it to rule and that being spoken of meaner Pastors then Peter euen of the Bishops of Ephesus Which bewrayeth further the séely state of your proofe grounded on the worde For if Peter were ordeined supreme head because he was willed to rule the sheepe or lambes what headship may the Bishoppes of Ephesus claime who were made ouerseers to rule the church of God that is both lambes and shéepe But your last proofe vpon the word to feede which signifieth you say a power most full and absolute is most out of square and neither agreeth with your selues nor with truth and reason For you said that lambes are onely fedde of Peter sheepe both fedde and ruled Which is fond if to rule be no more then to feede fonder if to feede imply a power most full and absolute Beside that to feede is to nourish Christians with milke or strong meate according to their state as they are either lambes or sheepe Wherefore if that import the fulnesse of power which no man hath but one to wéete the supreme head how great is your crueltie to the church of Christ who leaue but one Pastor throughout all the earth to preach the word of God vnto it Or if you leaue more grant that seuerall Churches shall haue their seuerall Pastors after the ordinance of God how great is your folly who graunting vs so many Pastors feeders yet say that one alone hath the charge to feede and that importeth a supremacy For if euery Pastor haue charge to feede his flocke and to feede implieth a fulnesse of power peculiar to the supreme head then by your reason euerie Pastor in his church euery feeder in his flocke is a supreme head no lesse then Peter was amongst the Apostles Nay Peter was not so by your reason neither For if to feede doo signifie a power most absolute and full as you say it doth and that power was giuen to all the Apostles as you confesse too it followeth by your owne confession and saying that all the Apostles had that charge to feede If all they had that charge to feede maketh nothing for Peters Supremacie Wherefore this and other of the like knottes which Stapleton hath sought and âound out in bulrushes they did not grow in them by the workmanship of the Creator man hath made them and God will loose them Hart. This which you haue said might séeme to be some what towardes the loosing of them if the scripture gaue not very cléere euidence for proofe of his Supremacie as well elsewhere as here For Christ said to Peter Simon Simon behold Satan hath desired you to winow you as wheate But I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not And thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethren Rainoldes Will you be drawing still of blood for what doth eyther Christes prayer for Peter or the charge giuen him to strengthen his brethren say more for his supremacie then the question dost thou loue me or the charge feede my sheepe vnlesse you presse violently the wordes beyond their sense as your Schoole-diuines in their captious syllogismes or rather sophismes vse to doo Hart. Such dregges as our Canus termeth them of sophismes brought into the Schoole by men who were vnworthely named Schoole-diuines are reproued by vs as well as by you But the wordes of Christ doo speake enough for Peters prerogatiue without violence For they commande him to strengthen his brethren And his brethen were the rest of the Apostles They commaunde him therefore to strengthen the Apostles If to strengthen the Apostles then must he be their supreme head Wherefore the wordes of Christ proue the supremacie of Peter Rainoldes And thinke you that Christ meant the rest of the Apostles when he saide thy brethren Hart. Whom should hee meane if not them Rainoldes All the faithfull as I thinke For they haue all one Father the same that Peter hath and they are fellow heires of the grace of life with Peter and Peter himselfe strengthning them calleth them brethren So that in Peters iudgement Christ seemeth to haue meant by his brethren all the faithfull Pardon me if I be rather of his minde therein then of yours Hart. As who say we denyed that all the faithfull are meant by his brethren we teach the same also Yet that is true that I saide For I trust the Apostles are in the number of the faithfull Rainoldes They are so But then your reason of brethren hath no more force then had the other of sheepe Nay it hath lesse For what is to strengthen Hart. To strengthen is to stay them vp who do stand For the function of preaching which through the grace of God ingendreth faith in men hath two speciall partes to teach and to strengthen or as S. Paule speaketh to plant and to water To teach and to plant is to conuert men vnto the faith of Christ and to ingraffe them into him To strengthen and to water is to vphold them which are already faithfull that they may perseuere in it Rainoldes Then is the charge lesser to strenghthen the brethren then to feede the sheepe For to feede is as much as to preach the word of God And to preach hath two dueties to raise vp them that are fallen to strengthen them that do stand Wherefore if the supremacie were not giuen Peter by the charge to feede the sheepe much lesse can it be giuen by a part of that charge to strengthen the brethren For as Peter ought that duetie to his brethren so did his brethren to him and Paule performed it so did
the like consent by which they were made But with the Pope it is not so For such is the power of his Princely prerogatiue that not onely Councels may not make decrées for the Church-gouernment without his consent but hee may also make decrées without them as good as they with him Yea that he may adde too and take from and alter what hee shall thinke good in the decrées of Councels and set them out for theirs as Pope Clemens played with the Councell of Vienna Yea that being made with their consent and his both hee maye breake them when he will and repeale them if he list for no lawe doth hold him Now sith that the power which you giue the Pope by the name of supreme head you giue it Peter too from whom you fetch the Popes conueiance and Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker and therefore not as the Prince and therefore not as more then the Prince in our Parlament hereof I conclude that Peter was not the supreme head of the Apostles And so haue you the third point which I promised to proue that if somewhat more were giueÌ to Peter theÌ to the rest of the Apostles yet was it not so much as should make him their supreme head You may discharge now the Actes of the Apostles out of your Campe. For drawe what reasons thence you list you shal find theÌ as I told you no stronger theÌ the former Hart. You are too hasty your conclusion runneth away before your proofe Rainoldes I haue proued as much as may conclude your Pope to be an vsurper Hart. You haue not proued that Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker is in our Parlament Rainoldes What néede I When your selfe gaue no more vnto him then as the Speakers office in the former assembly wherein yet he did most For you said that he proposed an election to be made of a new Apostle into the roome of Iudas And this was all that you might say and say truely by the story of the Actes Which sheweth that not he but they madâ the election so farre as it was lawfull for them to deale with that which God was to order extraordinarilie As for the other assembly when the Councel was held at Ierusalem you cannot proue that he had so much as the office of a Speaker therein Your Doctor infeoffeth him I graunt with more namely that hee speaketh first of all concludeth yea and is President too But what will not he dare to affirme who in so great light of the Scriptures affirmeth in writing that which is flat against them For he saith that Peter not only speaketh first but concludeth also And they shewe that both there had beene much debating and reasoning of the matter before Peter spake and after he had spoken Barnabas and Paule and Iames spake and so the Councell did conclude the matter Yea they did conclude it according to the very wordes that Iames spake and a speciall point of his which Peter touched not So that if we would striue but lawfully against that for which you striue vnlawfully the likely-hood is rather that Iames sat as President in the CouÌcell then Peter sith both he spake last and the whole Councell did conclude with him But to yéeld vnto you for your most aduantage as much or more then any likely-hood may afford you that Peter was not only the Speaker but the President in both the assemblies yet are you no néerer vnto that supremacy which you shoote at For such a Presidentship as Peter had amongst the Apostles is so farre from the Prelatship which the Pope seeketh to haue amongst Bishops that if we should offer him all that Peter had at your request vpon condition that he would accept it and aske no more then it he would thinke we mocked him and giue you litle thankes who take vpon you to be his aduocate make so poore a plea for him This you may perceiue by an other aduocate who made the same plea for him out of this storie a learned Lawier Francis Duaren He in his Abridgement of the Canon lawe falling into the question of the Pope and the Councell whither of them is soueraine and hath the chiefest power whereto the other should be subiect in matters of the Church doth thus set downe his iudgement of it It seemeth most agreeable to the law of God that the Church which the Councell doth represent should haue the chiefest power and the Pope should acknowledge himselfe subiect to it For the power of binding and loosing was giuen by Christ not to Peter alone whose successour the Pope is said to be but to the whole Church Howbeit I deny not but Peter was set ouer the rest of the Apostles Hereof it commeth that in the time of the Apostles as often as any was to be ordeined either Bishop or Deacon or any thing to bee decreed which appertained to the Church Peter neuer tooke that vpon himselfe but permited it to the whole Church This was in him aboue the rest that he was wont as chiefe of the Apostles to call them togither and propose to them the thinges which were to bee doone Euen as now with vs hee that is the President of a court of Parlament doth call togither the Senate in the Senate he speaketh first when it is needfull and doth many other things which argue a certaine prerogatiue and preeminence of the person that he beareth Yet is he not therefore greater or higher then is the whole court neither hath hee power ouer all the Senatours neyther may hee decree any thing against their iudgements nay the iudgement of all controuersies belongeth to the court whose head the President is said to bee and not to the President Yea if neede bee the court dooth minister iustice and execute iudgement as well against him as against anye other and punisheth him also And this was the state of these thinges in olde time But in processe of time I know not how it came to passe that the highest power ouer all Christians was giuen vnto one man and he was set at libertie from being bound to any lawes after the maner of Emperours or to the Canons decrees of any Councels For Pope Paschalis prouided and ordered by a decretall Epistle that no Councels may prescribe a lawe to be kept of the church of Rome the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome is excepted expresly in the decrees of certaine Councels And thus he goeth forward in shewing the prerogatiue of the Pope aboue the Councell whereof he maketh him President But so that you sée he acknowledgeth it is not in the Actes of the Popes as it was of old in the Actes of the Apostles no not in those very places of the Actes whereon you grounde
As for the later of calling him to account although your good wéening of the Pope persuadeth you that he would not thinke his state to be abased if the Cardinals should aske him why he dooth this or that yet they who knew him better a great deale then you and loued him so well that they woulde not belie him doo witnesse not onely by word but by writing that he will not bée dealt withall by his inferiours as Peter was by the Apostles I meane not your Canonists in whose glose it goeth for a famous rule that none may say vnto the Pope Syr why do you so But I meane the learnedst and best of your Diuines who setting the Church aboue the Pope in authoritie mislike that the Pope will not be subiect to the Councell Of whom to name one for many Iohn Ferus a Frier of S. Francis order but godlier then the common sort intreating in his Commentaries written on the Actes of the example of Peter how hée was required to render a reason of that which hee had done maketh this note vpon it Peter the Apostle and chiefe of the Apostles is constrained to giue an account to the Church neither dooth he disdaine it because he knew him selfe to be not a Lorde but a minister of the Church The Church is the Spouse of christ and ladie of the house Peter a seruant and minister Wherefore the Church may not onely exact an account of her ministers but also depose theÌ reiect them altogither if they be not fit So did they of old time very often in Councels But wicked Bishops now will not be reproued no not of the Church nor be ordered by it as though they were Lordes not ministers Therefore they are confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Doo you know what Bishops they be who refuse to bee subiect to the Church Who say they are aboue the Councell Who may iudge all and none may iudge them This Preacher a Preacher of your own not ours dooth call them wicked Bishops The Lord of his mercy make his wordes a prophecy that those wicked Bishops may be confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Hart. You bring me wordes of Ferus which were not his perhaps but thrust into his commentaries before they came vnto the print by some malitious heretike For Sixtus Senensis saith that there are witnesses of very good credit who auouch that the commentaries of Ferus vpon Matthew were corrupted by heretikes after his death before they were printed Rainoldes Sixtus saith in déede of his Commentaries vpon Matthew that they were corrupted chiefly in that place where Ferus speaketh of the keyes that Christ did promise Peter For there is set downe as a speciall note that Christ saith to Peter I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen hee saith not the keyes of the kingdome of earth These wordes pertaine nothing to an earthly power which yet some endeuour by them to establish affirming that Peter receiued fulnes of power not only in spirituall things but also temporall And after declaration how this is plainely reproued by S. Bernard writing to Pope Eugenius it is added farther Peter receiued the keyes that is to say power not an earthly power that he might giue and take away dominions and kingdomes neither such a power that it should be lawfull for him to doo what hee list as many men dreame but he receaued the power of binding and loosing opening shutting remitting and retaining sinnes neither this at his pleasure but as a minister and seruant doing the wil of his Lord. And these are the words which sauour so strongly of an hereticall spirite that Sixtus saith it is auouched by credible witnesses the coÌmentaries of Ferus on Matthew wer corrupted after his death by heretikes chiefly in this place before they wer printed Wherin both the witnesses Sixtus in my iudgement haue shewed theÌ selues wise For it is better to beare men in hand that heretikes corrupted the commentaries of Ferus chiefely in this place then it should be thought that the strongest hold of all your religion the Popes supreme power to giue and take away kingdomes is shaken by a man so learned so famous so Catholike as Ferus But Sixtus saith not of his Commentaries on the Acts that they were corrupted also by heretikes Yet some heretikes hand may séeme to haue béene in them chiefely in this place where he doth reproue the arrogancie of the Popes and nameth them wicked Bishops Wherefore it would do well that the ouersight of Sixtus herein were mended by some other Sixtus who might say as much of Ferus on the Actes as Sixtus saith of him on Matthew Perhaps you haue not witnesses that wil auouch this as some auouched that The least matter of a thousand For two or three such as Surius Pontacus and Genebrardus men that haue sold them selues to make lies in the defense of Popery will be readie on the credite of a Lindan or Bolsecke not only to say it but to Chronicle it too Here is al the difficultie that these bookes are printed thus amongst your selues who set them foorth first and we receiue them at your hands A great faulte I know not whether of printers or censours and allowers of bookes to the print who suffer such scandalous places to bée printed Yea to be printed so still specially when Sixtus Senensis hath said and credible witnesses haue auouched that heretikes did corrupt them No no M. Hart it is too stale a iest to say that heretikes haue corrupted the commentaries of Ferus For the abomination of the Popes supremacie oppressing both the magistracie of the common wealth and ministerie of the Church is grown to such outrage that if we whom you call heretikes should hold our peace the stones would cry against it Hart. What néedes all this of Ferus Or Sixtus Or Canonistes Or I know not who You called me to the scriptures wheÌ I brought the Fathers and now from the scriptures you bring me to writers of our owne age Rainoldes Not from the scriptures to them but to the scriptures by them As Christ when the Phariseis sclaundered his workes alleaged the example of their own children therby to make them sée the truth And as he said to them therefore your children shall be your iudges so I say to you therefore your brethren shall be your iudges Hart. I graunt that the Pope doth not in all respectes submit him selfe as Peter to giue account of his dooings both to the Apostles and to inferior Christians But Ferus should haue considered and so must you that the times are not like It were not conuenient for him to do so now Rainoldes So I thought the case is altered You meane by the times the meÌ who liue
fortie chapters which hath not twentie in the Latin and yet notwithstanding the Latin hath the whole as well as the Gréeke Which is the more likely to haue béene the difference betwéene the Gréeke Cyrill alleaged by the Councell and our Latin Cyrill translated out of Gréeke because that our Latin hath also other sentences in the tenth booke which are alleaged by the Councell out of the foure and twentéeth and in their diuision a chapter and a booke did go for all one wheras the bookes in Latin are sub-diuided into chapters The mentioning therefore of more bookes of Cyrils treasure then we haue remoueth not suspicion of forgery from the sayings which Thomas citeth thence for the Popes supremacie Chiefely sith Trapezuntius who translated that worke of Cyrill into Latin was a man affectionate greatly to the Pope That if he had left out somewhat of that Gréeke as he hath perhaps vnlesse he vsed Cyril better then Eusebius yet is it not credible that he would haue left out so many places so notable proofes of a thing so weighty so néerely touching him whom he so déerely loued In déede they are too notable and perfit for the purpose and such as your Canus saith haue not their matches throughout all the Fathers Wherin that is also worthy of remeÌbrance which a wise maÌ said in a like case to much perfectioÌ breedeth suspicioÌ Neither was S. Cyril likely to write theÌ who when the Councel of Carthage sent vnto him about the Popes vsurping was so glad to send them euidence against it neither was his treasure fitte to write them in as handling al an other matter namely that the Sonne and the Holy ghost are of one substance with God the Father But the forging of Cyrill might be better borne with he was but one man That is no way tolerable that the like dealing is vsed with sixe hundred Bishops and more euen with the generall Councel of Chalcedon Of whom Thomas writeth that they decreed âhus If any Bishop be accused let him appeale freely to the Pope of Rome because we haue Peter for a rocke of refuge and he alone hath right with freedome of power in the steed of God to iudge and trie the crime of a Bishop accused according to the keyes which the Lord did giue him And againe after Let all thinges be kept which are defined by him as defined by the Vicar of the Apostolike see And to proue that the Pope hath vniuersal soueraintie ouer the whole church of Christ It is read saith Thomas in the Councel of ChalcedoÌ that the whole Councell did cry to Pope Leo God graunt long life to Leo the most holy Apostolike vniuersall Patriarke of the whole world Nowe in the generall Councell of Calcedon there is not one of these thinges no more then the other were in Cyrils treasure Wherefore it must needes be that either Thomas coined them or had them from some coiner Belike he who did it was maister of the Popes mint and who that should be but Thomas I know not Hart. Neither Thomas nor any els For these thinges were writen in the Councell of Calcedon but heretikes haue razed them out of our copies as Gregorie complaineth to the Earle Narses Rainoldes Or rather as Canus reporteth out of Gregorie but reporteth falsely For Gregorie doth not mention either heretikes or these things Only he affirmeth that the church of Constantinople had falsified the Councell of Chalcedon in one place which he séemeth to meane of the eight and twentieth canon of that Councell as the Grecians recken it wherein Constantinople is allowed equall priuiledges with Rome For the Church of Rome had still withstood this canon chiefely Pope Leo. Yet Constantinople and the Gréeke churches did set it downe amongst the rest The difference betwéene them appeareth to this day in the Gréeke and Latin copies the one of them hauing it and the other wanting it Which is a great presumption that Gregorie in saying the Councell of ChalcedoÌ is falsified by the church of Constantinople in one place meant this place by which Constantinople claimed as great prerogatiues as Rome the church of Rome crying against it And hereof Carranza in the abridgement of the Councels and Surius in the whole do giue a marke both reiecting that canon But neither Surius nor Carranza doo bring in any such stuffe as that of Thomas or say that it was written in the CouÌcell of Chalcedon but heretikes haue razed it out Nay the verye canons them selues of that Councell which are agreed vpon in both the Greeke Latin copies do cut off al shew from such false and friuolous defenses of Thomas For it cannot be thought that so great a Councell of so wise men ordeined things repugnant one vnto an other and they haue ordeined repugnant vnto that which Thomas citeth of the Pope as shall appeare after But Canus hath greatly both abused you and ouershot himselfe who to proue that now the copies haue not those thinges which they had in Thomas time bringeth Gregory for witnesse who liued long before Thomas and chargeth heretikes with that wherewith Gregory chargeth Catholikes and saith that they haue razed out where Gregory saith they haue falsified which they might do by adding too and speaketh it of sundry places which Gregory speaketh but of one and that one by the iudgement of your owne fréendes an other one then those of Thomas Now much more ingenuously should Canus haue done and you who follow him in euill to confesse a fault where a fault is then to commit many for the couering of one and for cléering Thomas to corrupt Gregory and to sclaunder vs with vniust reproches that you maye saue your selues from a iust reproofe Hart. I did not peruse the place my selfe in Gregory but tooke it as I found it alleaged by learned men For Cope hath it as well as Canus Neither doo I thinke that they did wrest it purposely but trusting their memories for the matter in generall did misse in setting down the words Rainoldes Neither doo I charge them as wilfull wresters of it It may be that Canus read it in some other and Cope in Canus and you in Cope and thus by tradition you are deceyued from hand to hand Remember Christes sentence If the blind leade the blind both shall fall into the ditch But this may suffice for a taste of your corrupting the writings of the Fathers before they came to the print Now how you haue vsed them since they were printed let your setting foorth of Cyprian first at Rome and then at Anwerp be an example In the time of Cyprian the church of Christ was troubled with the heresie of the Nouatians or as they called themselues Puritans a faction of men who thinking all impure and vncleane which had fallen in the time of
persecution though they repented after refused to communicate with them and thereupon did separate themselues from the societie of the Catholike church and assemblies of the faithfull as vncleane also for that they receiued into their felowship and communion vpon repentaunce such as had fallen Against these Nouatians the firebrands of schismes and dissensions in the Church S. Cyprian hath writen a notable treatise touching the vnitie of the church wherein he dooth instruct and exhort Christians to keepe the vnitie of spirit in the bond of peace and be at concord among them selues And to winne this of them by reasons and perswasions out of the holy scripture as among the rest hee bringeth sundrie figures wherein is represented the vnitie of the church as the arke of Noe the coate of Christ the house of Rahab the lambe of the Passouer so among the figures he placeth Peter first in that our Sauiour said to him Thou art Peter and on this stone wil I build my church To thee will I geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen againe Feede my sheepe For albeit Christ saith he gaue equall power to all the Apostles after his resurrection and said As my father sent me so I send you receiue ye the holy Ghost whosoeuers sinnes ye remitte they are remitted to them whosoeuers sinnes yâ reteyne they are reteyned yet to declare vnitie he disposed by his authoritie the originall of that vnitie beginning of one No doubt the rest of the Apostles were the same that Peter was endued with like felowship both of honour and of power but the beginning doth come from vnitie that the church of Christ may be shewed to be one Now this place of Cyprian which by the former printes was thought to make rather for an equalitie of all the Apostles in power then a supremacie of one as it dooth in deede is farsed with such wordes in the Romane Cyprian that in shew it maketh for Peters supremacie and so for a supremacie in power like the Popes as you teach men to gather of it For wher it was in Cyprian that the rest of the Apostles were equall both in honor and power vnto Peter but the beginning doth come from vnitie the Romane Cyprian addeth these words and the primacy is geuen vnto Peter Where it was in Cyprian that Christ did dispose the originall of vnitie beginning from one the Romane Cyprian addeth he appointed one chaire And againe where Cyprian said that the church of Christ may be shewed to be one the Romane Cyprian addeth and the chaire to be one This was well to beginne with that vnto Peter the primacy is geuen that Christ appointed one chaire and as the church must be one so the chaire must be one Yet because one chaire in Cyprians language dooth make no more for the chaire of the bishoppe of Rome then of the bishop of Carthage the Cyprian of Anwerpe to helpe the matter forwarde doth bring in Peters chaire And where it was in Cyprian euen in the Romane print too Hee who withstandeth and resisteth the church doth he trust him selfe to be in the church the Anwerp Cyprian addeth Hee who forsaketh Peters chaire on which the church was founded dooth he trust himselfe to be in the church So whereas aforetime S. Cyprian shewed the vnitie of the church in an equalitie of Peter with the rest of the Apostles now by good handling hee sheweth Peters primacie and that by good expounding is the Popes supremacie For we must imagine that by Peters chaire is meant the Popes chaire which chaire be forsaketh who is not obedient and subiect to the Pope according to Gratian in the canon law The only difficultie and scruple that is lefte to breede a doubt thereof in suspicious heads is that clause of Cyprian that Christ gaue equall power to all the Apostles and the rest were the same that Peter was endued with like felowship both of honor and of power Which wordes if you could hansomly take away out of him in some new print and why not take away so few as well as adde so many then would this be a passing fine place for you to perswade men that the vnity of the church doth presuppose your one chaire to which all must be subiect who wil be of the church and that they by consequeÌt are no right Christians who stand against the Popes supremacie Hart. You are much to blame to lay vnto our charge the corrupting of Cyprian chiefly in those editions which are best and soundest the Romane of Manutius and Anwerp of Pameliuâ For Pius the fourth a Pope of worthy memory desirous that the Fathers should be set forth corrected most perfitly and cleansed from all spots sent to Venice for Manutius an excellent famous printer that he should come to Rome to doo it And to furnish him the better with all things necessarie thereto he put fower Cardinals very wise and vertuous in trust with the worke Now for the correcting and cleansing of Cyprian specially aboue the rest singular care was taken by Cardinall Borromaeus a copie was gotten of great antiquitie from Verona the exquisite diligence of learned men was vsed in it Wherefore I am perswaded that whatsoeuer they did adde vnto Ciprian they did not adde it rashly or of their owne head but with good aduise vpon the warrant of writen copies Which although they haue not declared in particular yet may we gather it by Pamelius a Canon of the Church of Bruges and Licentiat of diuinitie by whom the Anwerp-Cyprian was afterward set foorth For he doth note that al the words which you spoke of added by Manutius in the Romane-print he appoynted one chaire and the chaire to be one and the primacie is geuen vnto Peter are in a written copie of the Cambron-abbey which was the best of all the copies that he had Yea those of Peters primacie not onely in that copie but in an other too which Cardinall Hosius occupied As for the rest which were added by himselfe in the print at Anwerp he who forsaketh Peters chaire on which the church was founded doth hee trust himselfe to bee in the church hee noteth that they also are in the Cambron-copie and confirmed by Gratian who hath the same words and citeth them with Cyprians name Whereby you may perceiue that wee haue not corrupted those places of Cyprian either in the Roman-print or the Anwerpe we haue corrected rather that which was corrupt But I see the Poet hath said very truely Nothing is done so well but with euill speeches a man may depraue it Rainoldes And it is as truely said by the Orators Nothing is done so euil but with faire colours a man may defeÌd it The Pope sent for Manutius to print the Fathers corrected he appointed foure Cardinals to see the worke done Cardinall Borromaus had singular care of Cyprian
in the Gospell he who said he would not goe into the vineyarde repented afterward and went so you may yéeld to this on better aduise to which you say you will not yéeld Though if your opinion of Peters supremacie were graunted to be true it proueth not your title to the Popes supremacie the principall point in question which you claime thereby For let vs faine that Peter was head of the Apostles How followeth it thereof that the Bishop of Rome is head of all the Church of Christ Hart. It foloweth by the second part of my reason The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles For if Peters power ouer the Apostles did reach vnto the whole flock both of the shéepe and the lambes then must the same power of his successor ouer Bishops reach by like reason vnto the same flocke and so to all the Church of Christ. Rainoldes But how doo you proue that the Bishop of Rome succéedeth Peter in his power Hart. Because that the power committed to Peter was not to dye with Peter For this had not bene agréeable to the goodnes and wisedom of Christ vpoÌ whom it lay to prouide for his church vntill the end of the world as Austin sheweth he did Thinke not saith hee to the Church thinke not thy selfe forsaken because thou seest not Peter because thou seest not Paule because thou seest not them by whom thou art begotten Of thine ofspring there is growne vnto thee a fatherhood in steed of thy fathers children are borne vnto thee Rainoldes The goodnes and wisedome of our Sauiour Christ prouided for his Church as S. Paule witnesseth by giuing Pastors and teachers Pastors and teachers not one to the whole but many to the seuerall partes of his Church For they whom Christ hath chosen to serue him in the ordinarie feeding of his flocke to instruct his people and guide them in the way of life vntill the end of the world are named in the scripture sometime Elders of their age sometime Bishops of their duetie And he hath taken order by his spirite and word that such should be appointed in euery Church through euery citie This was it that Austin regarded when he said the church is not forsaken although she see not the Apostles considering that in steed of the Apostles she hath Bishops For by the name of Fathers he meant the Apostles and by the name of children bishops In steed of thy fathers children are borne vnto thee Which how it may serue your purpose I see not Unlesse perhaps you meane that amongst those children the Bishop of Rome should be heire as eldest and Bishops of other cities should be handled al like younger brethren But Austin saith not so Hart. It is proued by Austin that our Sauiour Christ prouided for his church And this I graunt he did by giuing seueral Pastors vnto seuerall flockes but so that he committed the charge of them all to one supreme Pastor which is the Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Thus I heare you say But I had rather heare Thus saith the Lord. Hart. You shall heare it The Lord saith that there shal be one flocke and one shepheard or as we translate it one folde and one Pastor whereof I make this reason By the name of Pastor is noted an ordinarie gouernment and charge which hath relation to a flocke and therefore as long as the flocke continueth the Pastors office must continue the office of one Pastor as the flocke is one It continued in Peter when Christ made him supreme Pastor Now when Peter dyed it should continue in his successor And the successor of Peter is the Bishop of Rome The Bishop of Rome therefore is the supreme Pastor of the Church of Christ. Rainoldes I perceiue your Pope can make no shew of title to supreme-headship of the Church vnlesse he put Christ from the possession of it For Christ by one Pastor doth signifie himselfe as it may appeare by the drift of all his spéech wherein he maintaineth his office and autoritie against the slanders of the Phariseis I am saith he the good Pastor and know mine owne and am known of mine As the Father knoweth me so know I the Father and I lay downe my life for my sheepe Other sheepe I haue also which are not of this fold and them must I bring and they shall heare my voyce and there shal be one flocke one Pastor One Pastor who but he of whome the wordes afore and after are meant He who is the good Pastor who knoweth his sheepe who layeth downe his life for them who hath other sheepe beside the Iewes to wéete the Gentiles whom hee will bring to his folde and so of them both the Church shal be as one flocke obeying Christ as one Pastor This is the one Pastor that our Sauiour meant Which if you wil not beléeue on my word or rather on his word who spake it beléeue your own Bible expouÌding it by confereÌce of scripture with scripture of Iohn with Ezekiel In whom God doth promise that he wil make of Israel Iuda one people and set his seruant Dauid that is Christ the sonne of Dauid to be one Pastor vnto them all and hee shall feede them Thus in Gods law the wordes are meant of Christ. The Pope in his law wil haue him selfe meant by them You are angry with vs when we call him Antichrist Is not the name of Antichrist too gentle for him who claimeth that to himselfe which is proper to Christ Hart. The Pope will haue himselfe to be meant by them as the vicar of Christ and so they doo belong to him Though they belong also to Christ which we deny not For thus saith the Pope Of the Church which is one there is one bodie and one head not two heades as a monster namely Christ and Christes vicar Peter and Peters successor sith the Lord saith to Peter himselfe Feede my sheepe my sheepe saith he in generall not in particular these or these whereby hee is vnderstood to haue committed all to him Whether they bee therfore Grecians or others who say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors they must needes confesse them selues not to bee of the sheepe of Christ Sith the Lord saith in Iohn that there is one folde and one Pastor Which wordes though they conclude the Pope to bée that one Pastor yet you must not take them as though the Pope meant them of himselfe alone but that they are verified first in Christ then in Peter lastly in himselfe And so there continueth one Pastor by succession euen as the Church continueth one Rainoldes Doo you know what you say when you say there continueth one Pastor by succession Peter after Christ the Pope after Peter I hope you doo it ignorantly and therefore may obteine mercy though
may séee by Eli. Rainoldes But this was verie rare extraordinarie Now the Law which God prescribed in Deuteronomie by his seruant Moses did touch the common state and ordinarie gouernment of the people of Israel For both it is generall without limitation of persons or times as to be kept still for the ending of their controuersies not onely in the dayes of Eli and it is written that when king Iosaphat restored the state decayed in Ierusalem hee set of the Leuites and the Priestes and of the chiefe of the families of Israell for the iudgements of the Lorde and for controuersies Which to haue béene done in respect of that law it appeareth by the wordes that he spake vnto them Whatsoeuer controuersie shall come vnto you from your brethren who dwell in their cities betweene blood and blood betweene law and precept statutes and iudgements doo ye admonish them that they offend not against the Lord. Wherefore séeing that the law in Deuteronomie was made to establish a highest court of iudgement in which all harder causes ecclesiasticall and ciuil should be determined without appeale farther the reason and the practise of the law do shew that in respect of the two kinds of causes there were ordained two sortes of men to heare them ecclesiasticall and ciuill the ciuill meant by the iudge the ecclesiasticall by the Priest Who because they were distinct as in office so in person too ordinarily it followeth thereof that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. Yet the Glosse expounding that place of Deuteronomie doth say that by the iudge is meant the high Priest euen as I say Rainoldes But Lyra and Caietan as worthie men as they who compiled the Glosse if you will heare men doo say that by the iudge is meant the ciuill magistrate euen as I say Which sense of the place is so plaine certaine that Carolus Sigonius the Popes owne historian in a booke which lately he set foorth at Bononia with approbation of the Bishoppe and holy Inquisition and dedicated to Pope Gregory the thirtéenth affirmeth that the king is meant by the iudge in that place of Deuteronomie It may be M. Hart that sith you were beyond-sea they haue bethought them selues and seeing that your Glosse doth goe against the text they will no longer stand vnto it Indéede if the supremacie belong to the iudge the Prince hath greater right thereto then the Pope For it is certaine as I haue declared by circumstances of the scripture that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. It skilleth not to my purpose whether he were or no. It sufficeth me that he who refuseth to obey the Priest must die by the law Which is enough to proue the soueraintie of one Priest Rainoldes Not so For the name of Priest in this law doth signifie the Priestes Which is cléere by reason that the punishment of the transgressor hath a relation to the law and the law doth will men to go to the Priests the Priestes it saith as of many not as of one the hie Priest Wherefore in giuing sentence of death against him who disobeieth the Priest it meaneth the Priestes according to a kind of spéech wherin the whole is noted by the part As afterward likewise entreating of the duetie and right of the Priestes it noteth them in generall by name of the Priest Hart. But here vpon mention of the Priest it foloweth who doth serue the Lord thy God By the which title the hie Priest may séeme to haue béene namely noted and seuered from the rest Rainoldes He might so were it not that the same title is also giuen afterward to Priestes generally yea where this matter is touched againe of purpose the Lord thy God hath chosen the Priestes the sonnes of Leui to serue him and to blesse in the name of the Lorde and by their word shall euery controuersie and euery plague be tried Hart. Yet you will graunt I trust that amongst the Priestes there was one chiefe yea euen in this matter of highest iudgement in doubtfull causes Which in the same place of Scripture that you brought to expound this is shewed by king Iosaphat saying vnto them to whom that iudgement was committed Amarias the Priest shall be the chiefe ouer you in matters of the Lord. Rainoldes This I will graunt you But you must graunt me also that looke what is giuen to him amongst the Priestes in matters of the Lord that is in ecclesiastical the same amongst the iudges is giuen to Zebadias in matters of the king that is in ciuil causes For Iosaphat doth say as well the one as the other So that to come now to the later point of your lame similitude if Christians must haue a soueraine Bishop ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe Priest then Christians must haue a soueraine Prince ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe iudge And as all harder causes at least of religion must be referred to the Pope so all of ciuill matters must be referred to the Emperour And as amongst the Iewes the Priest and iudge were resident in the place which the Lord had chosen so the Pope and the Emperour must both abide in Rome Which Pope Paule the third did feare that Emperour Charles the fifth would haue done But he sent for the French men to kéepe him out If Gregorie that now is Pope be better minded and will resigne his ciuill State vnto the Emperour with the Palace of Vaticane and Castell of Saint Angelo then may the reason which you ground vpon the law in Deuteronomie serue you with greater shew Howbeit euen in that case it would rather further the Emperour then the Pope because it mentioneth the iudge as one the Priestes as many Hart. It is not necessary for the gouernment of the common-wealth among Princes that any one of them be Prince ouer all But as the king of Iuda was in his owne kingdome so euery Prince is highest in his own dominion Rainoldes Neither it is necessarie for the administration of the Church amongst Bishops that any one of them be Bishop ouer all But as the hie Priest was chiefe ouer the Iewes so is euery Bishop ouer his owne charge Hart. Nay the case of the Church and common-wealth herein are vnlike and different Because that common-weales may be vpholden although they be gouerned not onely by diuerse kings and ciuill magistrates but also by diuerse ordinances and lawes But the Church as it hath one faith in all Christians so ought it to haue the same lawes and ordinances of religion in all countries Rainoldes This difference and vnlikenes betwéene the Church and common-wealth is lesser then you imagine if it bee marked well For iustice and right in giuing euery one his due should haue the same place in the common-wealth which faith and religion claimeth in the Church Now as in religion there are some things of substance
and some of ceremonie so there are some pointes essentiall in iustice and some accidentall The essentiall pointes of iustice are the same in lawes of all common-wealthes For what is a law but a diuine ordinance commanding thinges honest and forbidding the contrarie The accidentall pointes doo and may vary according to circumstances of places times and persons So lawes of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches in ceremonies they may differ as in the primitiue Church they did Wherefore the same faith and lawes of religion do no more inforce all churches to obey one Bishop then the same right and ordinances of iustice do require one Prince to rule all common-wealthes But what soeuer your fansie make you thinke of this point the place in Deuteronomie adiudging them to death who disobey the Priest can not helpe your fansie though it had béene meant of no other Priest but of the high Priest onely For Christ wheÌ he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospell said vnto them Whosoeuer shall not receaue you nor heare your wordes when yee depart out of that house or that city shake of the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodome and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement then for that citie Which wordes being spoken to all the Apostles not to Peter onely and therefore belonging to all their successors as well as to Peters doo shew that euery Bishop hath as great authoritie giuen him by Christ as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie In so much that Cyprian doth alleage it often by a better reason of proportioÌ then yours to proue the authoritie of Bishops each in seuerall ouer the flockes committed to them Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder then Bishops each in seuerall be able to decide it What if they disagree and will not yéeld one to another Doth not wisedome shew that there must be a chiefe iudge to ende the controuersie to keepe the truth of faith and peace of the Church that it be not pestered with heresies and schismes Rainoldes The wisedome of God hath committed that chieftie of iudgement so to call it not to the soueraine power of one but to the common care of many For when there was a controuersie in the Church of Antioche about the obseruation of the law of Moses some Iewes teaching contrarie to that which Paule and Barnabas taught they ordeined that Paule and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go vp to Ierusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question And so by their common agreement and decrée the controuersie was ended the truth of faith kept and peace maintained in the Church After which example the Bishops that succéeded them made the like assemblies on the like occasions and by common conference tooke order for such matters both of doctrine and discipline as concerned in common the state of their Churches So did the Apostles and Apostolike men prouide against schismes heresies Their wisedome reached not vnto your policie of one chiefe iudge Hart. The profit of Councels and Synods of Bishops is very great we graunt For many eyes see more then one But it wil be greater if they be all counsellors vnto one gouernor then if they gouerne eche his owne and all in common For reason doth teach vs that the regiment of one which wee call a monarchie is better and worthier then the regiment of many as the Philosophers shew who write of Common-weales Rainoldes Reason is a notable helpe of mans weakenes if it be obedient to faith as a handmaide not rule it as a maistresse And humane artes wherein the Philosophers haue séene many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason are profitable instruments to set forth the truth so farre as they haue peace not warre with Gods worde But if the Philosophers haue erred as naturall men who neither doo conceiue the things of the spirit of God nor can know them if reason haue her eyes as it were dazeled because the light shineth in darkenesse and the darkenesse did not comprehend it then is it to be feared least as the Serpent seduced Eue through his suttletie so he beguile you by reason and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost beware least there be any man that spoyle you through philosophie Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church gouernment as of your whole doctrine a mightie ground whereof in your Schoolemen is philosophie and your Iesuites challenge doth offer to proue it by naturall and morall reason For here if I would iustifie the cause by Philosophers it is âasily shewed that the Churches state is a most perfite monarchie wherein Christ is king his lawes are the scriptures his officers are the Bishops not ordained to bée assistantes vnto one deputie but to be deputies all them selues euen Pastors of his flock guides rulers of his Church Howbeit if it differ from the kingly states of worldly coÌmon-weales which philosophie writeth off as it doth in part Philosophers must not maruel sith Christ hath declared his kingdoÌe is not of this world Indéede the Apostles thought of such a kingdome but Christ saide it should not be so amongst them as with the Princes of the Gentiles Which sentence of Christ your Popes not vnderstanding and wéening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathnish tyrannie and liking well a monarchie because Philosophers prayse it they haue raised a visible monarchie of their owne in steede of Christes monarchie and haue chaunged his kingdome which is not of this world into a worldly kingdome the kingdome of the Romanes as a Iesuit calleth it Neither contenting them selues with such a kingdome as Princes of the Gentiles had they make them selues Princes ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the earth Which is a greater monarchie then Philosophers like off as I coulde proue out of them if the Popes cause were to be handled in their schooles But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about pointes of State as your Rabbines doo to proue that a monarchie is the best regiment therefore against such reasons I laye that exception which Tertullian did of olde against heretikes What hath Athens to do with Ierusalem the schoole of philosophy with the Church of Christ The duetie of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith not what reason but what religion not what the Philosophers but what the Prophets Apostles not what mans fansie but what the Spirit of God doth say And so the former parts of your maine argument for the Popes supremacie are too weake to proue it The last is weaker then they both For that there should be one chiefe and highest Pastor of the Church in earth it hath some
from Papias also by one as good as himselfe euen by Clemens Alexandrinus Wherefore I know what credit it hath what truth I know not For if Cassiodorus Rhegino Ado and all the ecclesiasticall histories haue erred in saying that Peter did abide at Rome fiue and twentie yeares which errour they were caried into by Eusebius or whosoeuer first reported it why might they not also be deceyued in this point by the report of Papias or some who had it from Papias Though if it be true that S. Marke was Peters scholer at Rome yet this proueth not that he meant Rome by the name of Babylon For Peter saith onely the Church which is in Babylon Marke my sonne salute you Now Marke as your Papias also doth report did follow and accompanie Peter in his trauel So that he might be with him as well at Babylon in Chaldaea as in Italie at Rome Wherefore whether Peter were at Rome or no the proofe therof resteth vpon humane histories For this of Gods word whereby you would proue it faine saith nothing for it Which a learned man of our side hauing weighed and séeing the dissension of writers touching the time that hee came to Rome and knowing by the scripture that their spéeche of his abode in Rome is false and marking the shamefull practise of the Romanists in forging tales for their aduancement as Constantines donation and spying some such forgerie amongst their monuments of Peter as Linus fable of his death and finding his martyrdome mentioned by Ierom and Lyra in such sort as though he had béene crucified by the Scribes and Pharises he was brought by these the like perswasions into this opinion that Peter neuer came to Rome If you aske my iudgement I thinke he was deceiued therein And so doo many mo None of all the Protestants who haue dealt in writing of histories Chronicles to my knowledge one excepted denyeth that he was at Rome They who are straitest in it doo say it may be doubted it is no article of our faith and either he was not there or at another time then most autors thinke and lesse then fiue and twentie yeares Wherein what doo they say but that which is most true and manifest The greater wrong you doo vs to charge vs in general that we holde that Peter was neuer at Rome And to aggrauate the matter you muster vp the names of the ancient Fathers as though we did bande our selues against them all Whereas in verie déede they whom you count our captaines doo therefore graunt Peter to haue béene at Rome because the ancient Fathers affirme it so with one consent Yea some of them expounding those same wordes of Peter apply the name of Babylon to Rome as you doo some who allow not of that exposition yet graunt hée was at Rome And so the reproch of shamelesse partialitie which you cast on vs redoundeth on your selues For if you had any modestie and equitie you would neuer say that we denye Rome to be meant by Babylon because it would follow that Peter was at Rome and so forth Specially sith neyther all of vs deny it and many who denye it yet deny not but Peter was at Rome But whereas you adde that we deny it fearing hereby the sequele of Peters or the Popes supremacie at Rome therein you passe your selues in impudencie For we doo confesse and you too I trust that Peter was at Ioppe And doo we or rather you feare hereby the sequele of Peters or the Popes supremacie at Ioppe Hart. No because we reade not that he was Bishop of Ioppe We reade that he was Bishop of Rome Rainoldes But you can not proue it by those words of Peter which you would ground it on although it were graunted that he meant Rome by Babylon For the most that might be proued so therby is that he was at Rome Which furthereth no more the Pope of Rome then of Ioppe And thus you may sée what tragedies you make for how small trifles when you lay so heinous a crime to our charge for denying that which although we graunt we neyther winne nor lose by it Hart. But if he were at Rome it will be the likelyer that he was Bishop there And that hee was so Eusebius sheweth in his Chronicle Rainoldes I perceyue the Pope must fetch his supremacie from earth and not from heauen You are fallen againe from scripture to Eusebius Against whose autoritie I might take exception because he saith that Peter continued bishop of Rome preaching the gospel there fiue and twentie yeares which I haue proued to be vntrue Though if I may speake mine owne coniecture of it the difference of the Chronicle and historie of Eusebius concerning that point doth moue mee to thinke that it was not writen by Eusebius but by Ierom. For he in translating the Chronicle of Eusebius did enterlace some thinges which séemed to be omitted chiefely in the Roman storie Now Ierom might receiue it from Damasus bishop of Rome on whom he attended as a secretarie And Damasus was not so voide of all affection but he could be content to aduance the credit of his owne Sée by helping it to be reputed the bishoply See of Peter But whether Eusebius or Ierom or Damasus or whosoeuer haue saide that Peter was a Bishop either they vsed the name of Bishop generally and so it proueth not your purpose or if they meant it as commoÌly we do they missed the truth For generally a Bishop is an ouerseer In which signification it reacheth to all who are put in trust with ouersight charge of any thing as Eleazar is called Bishop of the tabernacle Christ the Bishop of our soules But in our coÌmon vse of spéech it noteth him to whoÌ the ouersight charge of a particular Church is committed such as were the Bishops of Ephesus of Philippi and they whom Christ calleth the Angels of the Churches Now Peter was not Bishop after this later sort for he was an Apostle and the Apostles were sent to preach to all the world Wherefore when the Fathers said he was a Bishop either they meant it in the former sense or ought to haue meant it This is somewhat harder to be perceiued by Ierom but others open it more plainely For he reckeneth Peter the first Bishop of Rome Linus the second Cletus the third Clemens the fourth and so the rest successiuely as likewise in Antioche Ignatius the third whereby Euodius is the second and Peter the first But Eusebius nameth Euodius the first Bishop of Antioche Ignatius the secoÌd and Irenaeus nameth Linus the first Bishop of Rome Cletus the second and so forth Whereby they declare that in their iudgement although Peter preached at Antioche and Rome both yet he was neither
Bishop of Antioche nor Rome as vsually that name is taken Yea they distinguish the Bishops and the Apostles therein purposely For Irenaeus saith that the two Apostles namely Peter and Paule when they had founded and taught the Romane Church committed the Bishoply charge therof to Linus And he repeateth often in reckening vp the Bishops as doth Eusebius also that they were such and such in order and number from the Apostles And Rufinus writeth that Linus and Cletus were Bishops while Peter liued that they might haue the care of the Bishoply charge and hee might do the duetie of the Apostleship Which is confirmed farther by Epiphanius Who though hée say that Peter and Paule were both Apostles Bishops in Rome yet hee saith withall that there were other Bishops of Rome while they liued because that the Apostles went often into other countryes to preach Christ the city of Rome might not be without a Bishop As if he should haue said that a Bishops duetie doth bind him to attend the Church whereof the holy Ghost hath made him ouerseer Now though the Apostles Peter and Paule did performe that duetie to the Church of Rome while they abode there yet because it was the charge of their Apostleship to preach to others also therefore they went thence to othâr coastes and nations and left the Romane charge to the Bishop of Rome And so you may learne by the Fathers theÌ selues that when they termed any Apostle a Bishop of this or that citie as namely S. Peter of Antioche or Rome they meant it in a generall sort and signification because he did attend that Church for a time and supplyed that roome in preaching of the Gospel which Bishops did after But as the name of Bishop is commonly taken for the ouerseer of a particular church and pastor of a seuerall flocke so Peter was not Bishop of any one citie and therefore not of Rome Hart. Yet the Bishops of Rome did succéede Peter euen by the testimonie of the same autors namely of Irenaeus Eusebius and Epiphanius in the places by you alleaged Rainoldes They did succeede Peter as Bishops an Apostle and they did succéede him in Rome as other Bishops did in other cities Wherefore if the Bishop of Rome by this succession haue right to the supremacie what hath the Bishop of Antioche For he succeeded Peter too Hart. The Bishop of Antioche did succéede Peter while Peter liued yet and had not left his right But the Bishop of Rome succéeded him when he died and thereby was aduanced vnto that supremacie which Peter kept while hee liued Rainoldes Your men were wont to answere that Antioche had first right to the supremacie by the chaire of Peter but Peter did remoue his chaire thence to Rome This was somewhat stale Which your Father Robert smelled belike so he thought it better to say that Peter kept his right while hee liued but when he died the Bishop of Rome was his successour and had it as I trow by legacie A pretie shift if it woulde stand but it lacketh life For Linus Bishop of Rome who succéeded Peter succéeded Peter liuing in the same maner as did the Bishop of Antioche Hart. Not so But Clemens rather did succéede Peter and that after his death For when he perceiued his end to draw néere he tooke Clemens by the hand and said in the hearing of the whole Church which was then assembled Hearken vnto me my brethren and fellow-seruants Because as my Lord maister Iesus Christ who sent me hath told me the day of my death approcheth I ordeine this Clemens to bee your Bishop vnto whom alone I commit the chaire of my preaching and doctrine and I giue to him that power of binding and loosing which Christ gaue to me that whatsoeuer he decreeth of any thing in earth the same shall bee decreed in heauen Rainoldes Who told you this tale Hart. A tale It is recorded in an old monument Rainoldes Whence came that olde monument Hart. From Clemens himselfe who liued in the time of the Apostles and is mentioned by S. Paule Rainoldes But where doth he record it Hart. In his first epistle writen to Iames the brother of the Lord. Rainoldes In déede an olde monument It is so olde that it is rotten A very drunken forgerie wherein it is said that Peter praied Clemens to write after his death this epistle to Iames the brother of the Lord to comfort him and Clemens did so Whereas Iames was dead long before Peter about an eight yeares at least Hart. This is one of the arguments that are brought against it by your Centuries of Meydenburg which I make no account off though you alleage them all For Turrian hath sifted confuted them in his defense of the decretal epistles of the Popes where he bringeth reasons why Clemens might write well to Iames being dead and Peter with him so to do Rainoldes Turrian a Iesuit a couer fitte for such a cuppe Whose defense of those bastards fathered on the ancient Bishops of Rome falsely may be iustly censured with that which Viues saith of your golden legend it is writen by a man of a brazen face a leadeÌ hart For nothing can be spoken so fondly absuâdly which he hath not some reasoÌ for as though he had resolued to be maâ with reason Howbeit sith you are fore-stalled with a preiudice of his defense against the Centuries I will not touch the arguments whereupoÌ they staÌd Though his answeres to them if they should be laid in the skales togither would be found lighter then vanitie it selfe in all indifferent readers eies His dealing in this one point may giue a tast thereof For though to write letters to a dead man be a thing so senselesse that the epistle therefore is nipped as vnlikely by Cardinall Turrecremata and cast off as counterfeit by Cardinall Cusanus yet Turrian defendeth it as wisely done and omitteth nothing to shew with how good reason Clemens might write letters to Iames being dead yea though hee knewe him to bee dead saue that as a learned man told him pleasantly hee sheweth not by what carier Clemens did send the letters to him But to let both Turrian and the Centuries go the drift of the epistle being to prooue that Peter ordained Clemens his successour discâediteth it selfe as Cusanus hath also noted by the iudgement of the Fathers S. Austin S. Ierom Optatus and the rest yea by your owne Chronicles and histories ecclesiasticall who all agrée that Linus was Peters successour and so they marre the tale of Clemens Hart. You doo ill to call it a tale and droonken forgerie such reprochefull termes Rainoldes You must beare with my plainenes I call a ââgge a figge and a spade a spade Hart. Nay it is neither a forgerie nor a tale For the
the successour of Peter not onely while Peter was aliue yet but when he was deceased also Rainoldes He was so What of that Hart. Of that I conclude the Bishop of Romes supremacy and conuince you of errour For Peter had charge of all the Church of Christ. But the Bishop of Rome is the successour of Peter The Bishop of Rome therefore hath charge of all the Church of Christ. Rainoldes As if you should say Salomon did raigne ouer all Israell But Roboam Salomons sonne was his successour Roboam therefore raigned ouer all Israell Whereby you might conuince the scripture of errour for saying that Ieroboam was king ouer all Israell and none did folow Roboam but the tribe of Iuda onely Hart. They reuolted from Roboam But he had right to be their king as being heire of Salomon Rainoldes But what is that to my reason For pointes in a similitude are bound to hold no farder then that wherein they are resembled Els you might adde too that the Pope is liker to Ieroboam then to Roboam because of his golden gods and therefore should be king rather of all Christendome then of the prouince of Rome onely But if your cauill please you against that reason heare an other The Apostles of Christ had charge of all nations All Bishops are successours of the Apostles Therefore all Bishops haue charge of all nations Will you reply now that men reuolt from Bishops but they haue right to be Popes as being heires of the Apostles Hart. No For though all Bishops succeede the Apostles as S. Ierom saith well it is true yet they succede them not in their whole right They succeede them in the kind of charge to preach the Gospell but not in the amplenes to preach it vnto euery creature They succeede the Apostles but not in the Apostleship For of the Apostleship there is no succession as D. Stapleton sheweth Rainoldes Then D. Stapleton sheweth that the Bishop of Rome doth not succéede Peter in the Apostleship neither Hart. And what if he do not Rainoldes Then he succéedeth not to all the right of Peter Then how is the supremacie proued by this succession Then the Pope vsurpeth who will be the Apostles successor in the Apostleship For he calleth his office the office of the Apostleship and things which he doth heare his Apostleship doth heare them and in his prohibitions he willeth weightie matters to be referred to his Apostleship and in his vsuall style the style of the Court of Rome his letters his decrees his mandates and precepts are called Apostolike and all Apostolike that toucheth him the Apostolike Bull the Apostolike seale the Apostolike messenger Apostolike palace chamber chauncerie Apostolike Legate Apostolike pardon Apostolike authoritie Apostolike dispensation and what not Wherein we haue an other of your spirituall coosinages as kindly as the former wherein you clad the Pope with the name of Peter Nay this doth passe that For in that hee cometh forth with the spoiles of Peter one Apostle in this of more then one For Bishops in their oth of fealtie to the Pope are sworne to visite yearely the Court of the Apostles that is of the Pope vnlesse they bee dispensed withall by the Apostles that is by the Pope Hart. You neede not think this kinde of speeches so disorderly For S. Bernard vseth them or the like vnto them Yea the very title of the Apostleship is giuen to the Pope by him Rainoldes S. Bernard was a worthy man in that corrupt age in which he liued But your selues haue a prouerbe that Bernard saw not all thinges Yet he saw many more then you can well brooke and some wherein the Pope succeedeth Constantine not Peter some wherein he succéedeth neither That he saw the filth of the Papacie but in part it may be imputed neuer had himselfe youâ Popes supremacie the right of the heauenly and of the earthly kingdome the princehood both in temporall and spirituall things Such power neither the scriptures nor Fathers giue to Peter But what are the scriptures which the Fathers alleage Hart. How farre the supremacie of Peter did reach in earthly things and heauenly spirituall and temporall I will not reason now But the auncient Fathers alleage the same scriptures to proue that his supremacie came to his successors in the Church of Rome which I alleaged before to proue his right to the supremacie For that the promise in the sixtéenth of Matthew vpon this rocke I will build my Church and so forth is verified in the Sée of Rome S. Augustin teacheth Number saith hee the Priestes euen from the verie seate of Peter and in that ranke of fathers marke who succeeded whom that is the rock against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not And that the performance of the said promise in the last of Iohn Feede my sheep perteineth also to the Pope S. Chrysostome is witnesse auouching expressely that Christ did commit his sheepe to bee fedde both vnto Peter and to Peters successours Which to bee likewise meant by those words in the two and twentéeth of Luke I haue praied for thee that thy faith faile not and thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethren Pope Marcus in his decretall epistle to Athanasius Pope Lucius in his decretal epistle to the demands of French and Spanish Bishops Pope Felix in his decretall epistle to Benignus haue manifestly taught Rainoldes Nettles amongst roses when you set the bastard autours of these decretals amongst the auncient Fathers But tel me in good sooth thinke you that euerie Pope must denie Christ Hart. Denie Christ What meane you to aske me that question Rainoldes Because you seeme to say that Christes words to Peter and thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethren are meant of all them Hart. What And say I therefore that they must denie Christ Rainoldes Or els you say nothing For why said Christ to Peter and thou being conuerted Did he not say it in respect that Peter would auert and turne him selfe away from him when he denied him thrise Hart. So what if he did Rainoldes Then if the same wordes be meant of al Popes euerie Pope must first be turned away from Christ that he may be conuerted after and therfore euerie Pope must deny Christ. If I should say so some would be angrie with me But you may say what you list Hart. This is such a reason as that which hath bene made too that if the wordes Thou art Peter concerne Peters successour then the wordes Satan thou art an offense to me must concern him also because they were spoken by Christ to Peter both But as Father Robert answereth to that so doo I to this that the reason followeth not For certaine thinges saith he are spoken to Peter for himselfe alone certaine
for himselfe and for al Christians certaine for himselfe and for his successors This is plainely gathered by the diuers reason and consideration whereon they are spoken to him For those thinges which are spoken to him as one of the faithfull are vnderstood to be spoken vnto all the faithfull as if thy brother trespasse against thee Those things which are spoken in some respect of his owne person are spoken vnto him alone as thou shalt denie me thrise Those things which are spoken in regard of his pastorall duetie are spoken vnto all pastours as feede my sheepe and strengthen thy brethren And thus you may sée that the wordes of Christ I haue praied for thee that thy faith faile not and strenghthen thy brethren might in such sort be spoken vnto Peter that they might pertaine to euery Pope also though the other wordes to denie Christ and to be conuerted do not perteine to them You will not say your selfe I trust of faithful Christians that they must all denie Christ. Yet you said that this praier commandement of Christ perteine to them all if you be remembred Rainoldes I remember it well and it is verie true But this doth giue a deadly stripe to that argument which you preteÌded to be made by the Fathers For if the wordes of Christ Feede my sheepe and strengthen thy brethren must bee vnderstood as spoken vnto all Pastors which by your answere you graunt then how can they proue the supremacie of one Pastor which you conclude in your argument Hart. I did not meane by all Pastors the Pastors of all Churches but all the Pastors of one Church namely of the Church of Rome Rainoldes But Robert the Father whose wordes you alleaged doth meane the Pastors of all Churches And the commandement of Christ Feede my sheepe belongeth to them also vnlesse the councell of Trent mistake it Hart. It belongeth to them but to the Bishop of Rome chiefly For Chrysostome expresly saith as I alleaged that Christ did commit the feeding of his sheepe to Peter and to Peters successours Rainoldes And be you certaine that by Peters successours he meant the Bishops of Rome Hart. Whom should he meane but them Rainoldes He meant all Bishops not all the Bishops of one Church but the Bishops of all Churches Which is euident by his wordes and the entent whereto he spake them For to stirre vp Basil and make him glad and willing to doo the office of a Bishop which he had vndertaken he telleth him that Christ when he saide to Peter Dost thou loue me Feede my sheepe did thereby shew how deere his sheepe are vnto him and therefore would surely giue great rewarde to Pastors who feede them and guide them For why did he shed his owne blood saith Chrysostome but eueÌ to purchase those sheepe the care of whom he committed to Peter and to Peters successours Whereupon he goeth forward and declareth what that charge is which Christ gaue to Peter and to all Pastors by that commission Feede my sheepe So that both the course of Chrysostomâ spéech and the drift of his reason and the person whom it implyeth S. Basil Bishop not of Rome but of Caesarea doo manifestly shew that he meant by naming the successours of Peter all Pastors of the flocke al Bishops of the Church of Christ. And this is so cléere that Father Robert himselfe in his Romane Lectures doth not only graunt it but also proue it by two reasons one out of Austin that Peter was a figure of the Church that is to say he represented all Pastours when Christ said to him feede my sheepe an other out of Leo that Peter is an example and as it were a paterne the which all Pastors ought to folow How much the more shamefull is the ignorance of your Doctors if they knew it not the wilfulnes if they knew it who beare men in hand that Chrysostome doth proue the Popes supremacie by those successours Wherin the ouersight of your Rhemists is great but a paire of Iesuites Caniâius and Busaeus doo go beyond their felowes For they amongst many sentences of the Fathers the woorst of them as fit as this to proue the Papacie doo set out this as the best and triumph of it as of a péerelesse proofe by giuing it a speciall note in the margent Note say they to Peter to Peters successours Note it say the Iesuites In déede it is a point well worth the noting that you doo so notoriously abuse the Church of Christ. For you perswade the simple and chiefly young scholers who trust your common-place-bookes that Chrysostome spake of Peter and Peters successours in the same meaning that the Pope doth when he saith that Peter and Peters successour is the head of the Church and bindeth men by solemne oth to be obedient to the Bishop of Rome the successour of Peter Whereas S. Chrysostome meant by Peters successours all them whom Christ doth put in trust to feede his sheepe as the Maister of the sentences and Thomas of Aquine doo giue the name of Peters successours to all Priestes Prelates as they terme them that is to all Pastors Doctors of the Church as S. Austin teacheth that it is said to all when it is said to Peter Dost thou loue me Feede my sheepe as S. Ambrose writeth that he and all Bishops haue receiued the charge of the sheepe with Peter as the Roman clergie apply it to the rest of the disciples of Christ to the clergie of Carthage too Such inuincible reasons you fetch out of the Fathers for the Roman Papacy by which euery Bishop may claime as much aboue the Roman as may the Roman aboue any Hart. In déede to feede the sheepe is common after a sorte to the Pastors of all Churches But in many Churches the faith of Pastors hath failed Wherefore Christes prayer for the faith of Peter that it should not faile is not common to them all Onely the Bishops of the Church of Rome haue neuer failed in faith By the which euent of thinges it is plaine that Christ made that prayer for Peters successours in the See of Rome and so did establish them ouer al in charging them to strengthen their brethren Rainoldes And doo you thinke that all the Bishops of Rome haue had the same priuilege which Christ obtained for Peter in that his faith failed not Hart. The verie same no doubt Rainoldes And haue they shewed their faith by their workes too by keeping Christes commandements by louing one another Hart. They haue so perhaps Rainoldes Away with that perhaps for all the world knoweth they haue not Yea seuen hundred yeares ago not to speake of later times wherein their power and wealth haue kindled sparkes of greater licence and loosed the reines vnto their lustes but seuen hundred yeres ago when they were yet of meaner estate the proofe hereof was
the Emperours this witnesse and layeth the blame of those monsters vpon the Romanes themselues The noble men saith he of Rome to aduaunce their owne priuate power corrupted them to whom the Popes election belonged and thereby filled the Church almost two hundred yeares togither with grieuous seditions and shamefull euils and disorders These were the Marques Albert and Alberike his sonne a Consull the Earles of Thusculum they who were of their kinne or by their meanes had grown to wealth Who either bribing the people and clergie with money or spoiling them of the auncient libertie of the election by whatsoeuer other meanes preferred at their lust their kinsmen or frendes men commonly nothing like to the former Popes in holines and good order For the repressing of whose outrage Pope Leo the eighth reuiued the law which had beene made by Adrian the first and repealed by the third that no Pope elected should vndertake the Popedome without the Emperours consent Which law being taken away by occasion that the roome was sought ambitiously in the citie and purchased by bribes the state of the Church was put againe in great daunger through the priuate lusts of the same factions To prouide therefore a remedie for these things Henrie the Emperour came into Italie as hereupon Sigonius sheweth And so you may sée the lewdnes of Genebrard that shamelesse parasite of the Popes who without all reuerence both of God and man doth raile lye and falsifie stories to deface the Emperours and crosse the writers of the Centuries For he saith that the Emperours did as wilde boares eate vp the vineyard of the Lord the stories say that they deliuered it from wilde boares The stories say that the monsters of the Popes were chosen by the Romanes them selues he saith that they came in by intrusion of the Emperours The stories say that the Emperours who hunted out those beastes were vertuous and lawfull Princes he calleth them tyrants nor onely them but also many good Emperours moe who medled with the Popes election Finally the stories say that the Emperours were allowed by Popes and Councels to doo it he saith that they vsurped it by the right of Herode And yet him selfe recordeth and that in the same Chronicle too that Pope Adrian with a Councell Pope Leo with a Councell Pope Clemens with a Councell did graunt it vnto Charles Otho and Henrie the Emperours I haue read of an enuious man who was content to lose one of his owne eies that an other might lose both Genebrard is gone farther For he is content to put out both his owne eies that the writers of the Centuries may put out one of theirs That they may acknowledge them selues to haue praysed the German Emperours vniustly hee graunteth both that Popes with Councels haue erred and that their succession waâ broken off a great while Wherein if you say the same with him M. Hart I am glad of it But your felowes I feare me will not allow that you say if you allow that he saith Hart. No body saith that the succession of Popes was broken off nor that the Popes may erre and Councels For as Genebrard taketh it Leo the eighth and Clemens the second were not Popes Rainoldes But Adrian the first was as Genebrard taketh it and that one of the best Popes Yet he did graunt as much to Charles the Emperour as Leo did to Otho as Clemens did to Henrie And if it be true that they were not Popes whom yet the Roman clergy with many Bishops chose then the Popes succession which is almost the onely eye of your Cyclops will be cleane put out by the deuise of this No-body And how shall the writings of our Countriemen Sanders Bristow and Rishton and such others do then who make the Popes succession the chiefest bulwarke of your Church a certaine marke that neuer faileth And what will No-body him selfe say to the third booke of his Chronicle where he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world Was this true when he wrote the third booke and was it false when he wrote the fourth Hart. D. Genebrard whom you shal proue to be some-body ere you haue done though you be flouting him with No-body doth shew by the one place his meaning in the other For sith he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world it is plaine he meant not that it was broken of at any time absolutely and simply Wherefore in that he addeth about the fiftie Popes that the lawful succession was disordered then he meant that it was broken but in some sort as it were or to say the truth rather brused then broken not interrupted but disturbed For neither Genebrard saith nor any Catholike writer els but that the succession of Popes hath continued and shall vnto the end Rainoldes Then I mistooke his meaning touching the succession and yours touching the Popes For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes who were theeues and robbers Now I perceiue you meant not absolutely and simply that they were not Popes but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort they were crackt Popes as you would say and not sound or perhaps in truth rather crased then crackt Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes doth stand in force against them still For it is true as you said that they did not succeede lawfully Wherefore either lawfull succession is not necessarie vnto your succession or the crased Popes were no Popes at al. They did succéede Simon but Simon the sorcerer and not Simon Peter Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successours for your successions sake Else you spoile your Church of her gayest ornament through which the vnskilfull are most enamored of her Beside that neither would it helpe your cause a whit in tryall of the issue For sithence the Pope hath ouermaistred the Emperours and thrust from his election first them then the people afterward the clergie brought it to a few Cardinals there haue bene as monstrous Popes as were before still I except Iohn and haue come in as vnlawfully Hart. There were many tumultes and schismes in the Church chiefely through the Emperours meanes before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripenes which it is now at But things began to mend from that time of disorder For by the vertue of Leo the ninth and the Popes folowing that vsurpation was taken from the Emperor Henrie the fourth although with great sturres And so was the Sée Apostolike of Rome restored to her auncient brightnes and beauty Whereof our owne daies haue séene the proofe and triall in many good Popes elected lawfully no doubt Pius the fourth Pius the fifth and him who raigneth now Gregorie the
two conditions one that they bee lawfully ordayned least they bee theeues who enter in not by the doore an other that being lawfully ordained they keepe and holde vnitie least they become woolues of pastours Rainoldes Then is not trueth of doctrine knit necessarily to succession it selfe no not though it bee lawfull and Apostolike succession Hart. I graunt but with vnitie Rainoldes Then is there much vanitie in Stapletons discourses and in his vaunt more vanitie that in spite of heretikes a sure vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit to the verie succession of the Apostles to the succession it selfe And you by retayning this vnitie with Stapleton haue razed to the grounde that prerogatiue of the Pope whereon you builded his supremacie For if vnitie with succession haue vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith all Pastors kéeping vnitie are as frée from errour in doctrine as the Pope is And so if not to erre in doctrine be a priuilege proofe of the supremacie all Pastours haue as high supremacie by this vnitie as the Pope hath The Pope I can tell you will not like this vnitie How much the more wisely me thought you dealt before when laying the foundation of the prerogatiue Papall you remoued this vnitie out of the chaire that His vnitie might sit in it For whereas S. Austin saith that God hath set the doctrine of truth in the chaire of vnitie meaning of all pastors and teachers of the Church which held the faith with âoncord against the sect and schisme of Donatistes you applyed that saying to the chaire of the Pope displacing altogether both vnitie and other pastors Wherein though you forsooke the steps of D. Stapleton who proueth by that verie saying of S. Austin that all Priestes and Bishops whether they be pastours or hirelinges teach the truth yet you followed that which you had receiued of your Diuines at Rhemes For they do so apply it to the Popes prerogatiue Belike the great benefites flowing from the Pope to the Rhemish Seminarie did moue them to aduenture somewhat in his quarell more then D. Stapletons heart did âerue him too Hart No more then in truth and conscience they might For though in déed that saying of S. Austin were meant of al Bishops that held the faith with concord which our Diuines of Rhemes I warrant you knew well enough yet they might apply it to the Pope as chiefely belonging vnto him the fountaine as it were of vnitie Rainoldes But they do apply it to the Pope as onely belonging vnto him For they alleage it to proue the prerogatiue and priuilege of the Pope that howsoeuer he doo in person yet he cannot erre in office Liberius say they in persecution might yeelde Marcellinus for feare might commit idolatrie Honorius might fall to heresie and more then all this some Iudas might creepe into the office and yet all this without preiudice of the office and seate in which saith S. Austin our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth If your Diuines of Rhemes knew that S. Austin wrote this of all Bishops that held the faith with concord their sinne is the greater For that which he made common to the vnitie of all they nippe it as proper to the singular seate of one And that which he spake in generall of wicked bishops who say good thinges and doo euill they abbridge it to Popes As who say that Popes onely could be wicked not other Bishops also Hart. If there were perhaps either a slippe ofmemory or other ouersight in citing of S. Austins wordes the matter is not great so long as the thing is true which they be cited for namely that the Pope may erre in person not in office as a priuate man not as Pope Rainoldes The matter is so great that the tracke thereof will find vs out that which by this distinction you séeke to steale away For you say that the Pope cannot erre in office though he may in person And why Because although his person be wicked yet in the seate hath God set the doctrine of truth as S. Austin saith But as S. Austin saith it all Bishops be they good or euill pastors or hirelinges doo sit in that seat So that none of them can erre in office neither by consequence of your reason Wherefore if the Pope cannot erre as Pope a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop But you will not say I thinke that a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop Therefore you must yéeld that the Pope may erre as Pope Hart. What if I said that a Bishop can not erre as Bishop I could maintaine it after a sort Rainoldes I doubt not of that But you should marre the Popes priuilege which if you doo Hart. Nay I say it not The fault of your argument is rather in the former part I meane in the ground thereofwhich you said as out of S. Austin that the office and seate wherein God hath set the doctrine of truth is common to al Bishops For though he may séeme to haue so thought in that epistle yet in the next before it he giueth that prerogatiue to the Sée of Rome Rainoldes Unlesse your Diuines of Rhemes doo abuse him For out of that epistle they teach vs this lesson God preserueth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolike See of Rome which is in the new Law answerable to the chaire of Moses notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were neuer so wicked of life yea though some traitor as ill as Iudas were Bishop thereof it should not bee preiudiciall to the Church and innocent Christians for whom our Lord prouiding said Doo that which they say but doo not as they doo August Epist. 165. Now in the epistle alleaged and quoted for proofe of this lesson S. Austin saith the very same which in the other of wicked Bishops in generall though applying it in particular to the Bishops of Rome if any of them had béene wicked Your Diuines of Rhemes leaue out the generall wordes that simple men may thinke he meant a special priuilege of the Sée of Rome Whereto they note in the margent The See of Rome preserued in truth And vpon other like places The dignitie of the See of Rome And that which passeth all they say that in the newe law the See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses the Apostolike See of Rome I was of opinion before I saw these gloses of theirs vpon the Testament that Stapleton had passed all the Popes retayners in abusing Scriptures and Fathers for the Papacy But now I perceiue and confesse that as Ierusalem did iustifie her sister Sodom so the Diuines of Rhemes haue iustified their brother Stapleton For Stapleton as he hath dealt with greater truth and honestie then they in many other pointes so hath he shewed in this of Scribes and Pharises sitting in Moses chaire both that the text is meant of wicked
Bishops all such as say and doo not and that S. Austin giueth that sense of the text But the Diuines of Rhemes haue set downe S. Austins name and wordes so as if he had thought that to be Scribes and Pharises had béene a peculiar grace vnto the Popes And vnder colour of his authoritie and iudgement they force the scriptures also to it saying that the chaire of Moses in the olde law was that the Sée of Rome is now The See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses Which sentence is so grosse that vnlesse they had hoped to finde swine in England whom any doung would please that sauoured of the Pope they would not haue durst to lay it on the scriptures no not though their heartes had béene as fat as brawne and their faces as hard as adamant Hart. What meane you to sclaunder a college of so learned Diuines in such sort Doth not S. Austin mention the See and Bishops of Rome in all the places which they cite both in the epistles and against Petilian Rainoldes Not in all in some he doth But doth he mention him in any of them so as though the chaire of Moses were proper vnto him and he alone should sit in it Hart. Perhaps not expressely yet he doth impliedly and by a consequent For els why made he speciall mention of him more then of others Rainoldes Because he had occasion to speake of him specially through the obiections of his aduersaries Yet he maketh mention of other Sees and Bishops too as of Ierusalem But the scripture witnesseth that all men are lyers If I should hence auouch that the Pope is a lyer would you say that I auouch the Pope alone to to be a lyer and not the Turke also Hart. The Pope may lye by nature but God by grace can free him from it Rainoldes The question is what God doth not what hee can doo Hart. But as he can so he doth by priuilege of the Sée of Rome Rainoldes As true as Austin saith it Such a proofe such a priuilege Hart. S. Austin may haue said it if not in the former places yet in the other For certes D. Genebrard to proue that the Pope may be an heretike in person but cannot erre iudicially doth bring forth a reason from the chaire that is the Sée and quoteth him for it For the force saith he of the chaire is such that it constraineth them to speake good thinges and true who doo not good nor thinke true neither doth it suffer them to teach their owne thinges but the things of God Augustin lib. 4. de dectr Christ cap. 27. epist. 166. Rainoldes Of the two places whence he gathereth this the former agreeth fully with the later the later is the same that your Diuines of Rhemes abuse as I haue shewed In both S. Austin speaketh of wicked Bishops generally not specially of the Pope In both he meaneth the office of teaching by the chaire the office committed not to one Bishop but to all If Genebrard doo take the chaire in this sense how proueth it your priuilege If he meane the Sée of Rome by the chaire then is there a conspiracie of Prophets among you as there was among the Iewes and Genebrard is one of them Hart. It is not likely that S. Austin vsed the name of the chaire for the office of teaching which is common to all Bishops as well to hirelinges as to pastors For he saith that the chaire constraineth them to speake good thinges and true the chaire constraineth them How are they constrained but by a speciall grace for the benefite of the Church And in what Bishops may this grace be shewed but in the Popes onely Rainoldes S. Austin as he noteth that grace in the Popes so doth he shew it in all other Catholike Bishops of his time whose doctrine the Donatists against whom he writeth did not reproue but their maners He calleth the chaire in which they all sit the chaire of wholsome doctrine and saith they are constrained to speake good thinges in it He openeth the cause why they are constrained to wéete that although they seeke their owne thinges yet they are afraid and dare not teach their owne thinges out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established So that the speciall grace whereby they are constrained to speake good thinges and true is an vngratious grace whereby they are induced to séeke their wealth or honour For they preach Christ for earâhly commodities of mony or dignities and the prayse of man The loue of which thinges is so mightie with them that it doth moue them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sorte as is fit to get or keepe the thinges which they loue And hereupon S. Austin saith they are constrained and inforced to it as Paul said to Peter that he constrained the Gentiles to doo like the Iewes because by his example hee moued them effectually as Laelius told his friendes that they constrained him to graunt them a thing which they by earnest suite intreated For that he vsed the worde constraine in that sense himselfe hath declared other-where by saying that shepeheardes he meaneth hirelinges will they nill they will say the wordes of God that they may come to milke and wooll The spéech may séeme harsh that shepeheardes will they nill they will say the wordes of God but hee speaketh so to note that the loue of milke and of wolle that is of commodities constraineth them to féede the sheepe with Gods worde whether they like of it or no. Now because the doing herof is in and by their office of teaching which the chaire betokened as the chaire of Moses therefore he saith that Moses chaire did constraine the Scribes and Pharises to say good thinges and that amongst Christians hirelinges are constrained to say them in the chaire too As if I should say when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Poperie a worldling against worldlinesse an hypocrite against hypocrisie which some times they doo the pulpit constraineth them to preach so You should mistake me if you should imagin that I meane our pulpit hath a speciall grace to kéepe all preachers still from errour Euen so doo they S. Austin who dreame of such a chaire in his wordes Howbeit if you thinke that a chaire with him is of greater force then a pulpit with vs yet you can not thinke but that his wordes spoken of the Scribes and Pharises are meant of all Bishops who say and doo not For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharises often euen in the same booke which your Rhemists alleage Wherefore if the Pope by vertue of the chaire cannot erre as Pope then an other Bishop cannot erre as Bishop by vertue of the same chaire But any other Bishop you graunt may erre as Bishop Therefore you must graunt the Pope may erre as Pope
lawfullie prouide for the maintenance of their state temporall For what saith S. Paul If any man haue not care of his owne and specially of his domesticals he hath denyed the faith and is worse then an infidell Wherefore you must consider that the Pope susteineth a double person as it were the one of a Prince the other of a Bishop As a Prince he gouerneth his temporall dominion as a Bishop his spirituall His spirituall charge is all the churche of Christ his temporall a part of it And so though both of them concerne after a sorte the state of the Church yet his affaires spirituall which stretch through all Christendoom doo differ from his temporall which touch the Church of Rome chieflie For example Leo the ninth a verie good Pope aboue fiue hundred yeares since when the Normans spoiled the land of the Church and he had cursed them for it but could not conquer them by curses he got of the Emperor a strong band of soldiours whom he lead in person himselfe against the varletes and met them in the field manfully At the same time Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople denyed the supremacie of the Church of Rome and claimed it to his own Sée Whereof when Pope Leo heard he sent thrée legats to Constantinople to root out that heresie Now the former of these thinges he did as Prince against the Normans who set vpon his temporall dominion with armes the later as Bishop against the Patriarke who taught heresie a point of his spirituall charge Affaires of this later sort let me name for difference sake the Church-affaires the former the affaires of state And so it shall appeere what iniurie you doo them whom spitefully you call Herodes For you say that the affaires which they are busied about are their affaires of state Whereas in verie truth the affaires of the Church doo busie them a great deale more to sée that the Catholike religion be taught that errors be suppressed to prouide dioceses of good and learned Bishops and parishes of able pastors to heare appeales determine causes receiue supplications excommunicate the wicked absolue the repentant to doo the whole function of supreme heades of the Church And may not these affaires so weightie in charge in number so manie bee a iust excuse for them if they preach not Or will you slaunder them that they omit that dutie for their state-affaires when they omit it for the Church Rainoldes I would to God you were able to proue that I slaunder them and speake more spitefullie then trulie ofthem Better had it béene and would be for poore Christians of whom they haue murdered more soules nay more thousands of soules in one countrie with their Herodian practises then Herode murdered bodies through his whole dominion And this haue they doon by that prophane policie wherewith I iustlie charged them euen by pretending the Churches state to plant their owne and vsing the shewes of gouernment spirituall to get them temporall aduancement For vnder the coolour of binding and loosing the credit of forgiuing sinnes the title of S. Peters keyes their ordering of the whole Church and highest power in al Church-causes they haue raised vp the tower of their Papacie with the spoiles of Christendom and haue deuoured men as breade and sold the poore for siluer that they might make themselues strong in power and rich in wealth The first and chiefest meanes whereby they finished this worke and hauing built the walles by climing vp aboue Bishops did lay the roofe of it by climing vp aboue Emperours was excommunication Which they not content to vse against their Souerains as a spirituall ceasure did racke it to a ciuill punishment remouing them not onelie from the communion of the faithfull but also from dominion and rule ouer their subiectes and putting them as from the Church so from the Empire too When Emperour Leo the third desirous to abolish the worship of Images which then was créeping in had caused them to be defaced and thereupon did punish some who withstood it Pope Gregorie the second did excommunicate him in that Papal sorte forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute or obey him Upon this sentence and inhibition of the Pope a great part of Italie rebelled against their Emperour resiant at Constantinople and laid violent handes vpon his Deputies Lieutenants of whom they slew two and put out the eyes of the third By reason of which vprore and tumults ensuing part of the countrie that rebelled was conquered by the king of Lombardie Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedome fell vnto the Pope So the Pope who till that time had béene a Bishop onely became a Prince by treason But the Emperour sent another Deputie into Italie to stay those attemptes Who entring into league with the king of Lombards they ioined hostes togither and besieged Rome The Pope perceiuing that the garrisons and munitions wherewith he had fensed and fortified the citie were not strong enough to make his partie good against them trusting on the king of Lombards deuotion he went out with a solemne procession vnto him and with many swéete wordes of Peter and Paul Princes of the Apostles who with their pretious bloud had consecrated the church of Rome and will the godly vertuous catholike king of Lombards hurt the citie of that church and draw on him the vengeance of Peter and Paul he did intreate the king to giue the siege ouer and make the Deputie and him friendes Afterwarde a Duke one of the kinges subiects entending to reuolt from him did ioine in league and fréendship with the Roman Prince Pope Gregory the third and on the affiance thereof he rebelled The king hauing recouered his Dukedom by armes pursued the Duke to Rome The Pope not willing to deliuer the rebell nor able to defend the citie against the king who thereupon besieged it dealt as his predecessour had doon by supplication But finding the matter to be past intreatie and hoping for no aide in Italie hee sent to Charles Martell the king of Frances hye steward desiring him to helpe the church against the Lombard Which Charles by an embassage did raised the siege Now when Charles dyed his sonne named Pipine sucâceded him in office who because Chilperike that was king then did no part of the kingly duty but left the charge and burden thereof vnto him he tooke thereby occasion to make himselfe king Which to bring about with greater credit and autoritie the Popes aduise was asked Pope Zacharie made answere that he who did execute the dutie of the king ought to be king rather then he who did not execute it Whereupon the French men chose Pipine to be king the Pope released them of their oth to Chilperike About a two yeares after the king of Lombardy hauing woon Rauenna which citie was the seate of the Empire in Italy thought it méet that Rome and the Roman Dukedom
should now be subiect to him who raigned in the imperiall citie as it had béene afore time to the Emperour In this consideration he moued warre against Stephen the successour of Zacharie Pope Stephen remembring his predecessors benefite bestowed on king Pipine went to him into France and putting him in minde of Zacharies good turne prayed him to vndertake the quarell of S. Peter and of the common wealth of Rome against the Lombards Yea in an assemblie of the Nobles of France whom Pipine called together to know what they would say thereto the Pope did not onâly exhort them to warre that they might recouer Rauenna and the Emperours land from the Lombards but also was importuââte with them that they should not restore it to the Emperour For he said the Emperour was vnworthie of it because hee had forsaken the defense of Italie and was an enimie to the Church But if that king Pipine would either doo the dutie of a thankfull man or prouide for his soule health or rewarde the Popes labour he should bestow Rauenna and the dominion of it with the rest of that dition by way of gift vpon S. Peter This sermon as soone as Pope Stephen had made the French men agréed to warre against the Lombards Pipine protested that if he conquered them he would for obteining the forgiuenesse of his sinnes giue Rauenna with the dominion and dition ioyning to it vnto S. Peter his successouâs According to which vow when he was come into Italy and the Emperour sent him Embassadours with presents desiring him if he recouered that dition and dominion to graunt it vnto him and not vnto the Pope he answered that being moued thereunto not with humane rewardes but with desire of meriting the fauour of God he had receyued the church of Rome into protection because he was perswaded that it would be auailable to the saluation of his soule and the forgiuenes of his sinnes and sith hee had sworne that he would graunt giue it vnto S. Peter and his successours therefore he must performe it Which as he saide so he did Neither did he geue it vnto them more willingly then his sonne Charles the great confirmed the gift and added more to it when he had made a full conquest of the Lombards brought into subiection the kingdom of Italy Howbeit though the Popes were now become mightie with spoyles of the Emperour and had cast off his yoke from them yet were they still subiect to Charles the great king of Italie and France whom afterwarde they called the Emperour of the Romanes as the other the Greeke Emperour For though Charles gaue the countries to the Pope yet hee reserued the right soueraintie and roialtie thereof to him selfe And when his race decaying Otho the great had gotten the Italian kingdome Rome and the rest of the Popes dominions regarded the Pope as Prince of the common wealth but the king or Emperour as their soueraine Lord and did yéeld tributes and seruices to him So that the Pope was but a vasall to the Emperour and held of him in fée The chiefest meanes whereby they cast of this yoke also was excommunication not Christian but Papall excommunication such as they had practized against the Gréeke Emperour Pope Gregorie the seuenth was the beast that did it The occasion was the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings which the Popes themselues had graunted to the Emperours Charles and Otho yea the giuing of the Bishopricke of Rome and choosing Popes But when they had gotten of them that they sought and were growne lustie and fatt by their meanes they saw that the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings did abate that power to which they aspired Wherefore vnder colour that the Emperours gaue them not fréely but for mony they taught that lay men ought not to giue them at all and cursed both the giuers and receiuers of them Hereupon there arose great strife betwéene the Pope and the Emperour Henrie the third in the flames whereof Pope Gregorie the seuenth did by the right of S. Peters authoritie depriue him of his whole Empire discharge his subiects of their oth and forbidde them to obey him The Princes of Germanie not knowing the boundes either of S. Peters authoritie or of the Popes thought them selues bound to disobey their Emperour and so rebelled against him Pitifull and lamentable were the griefes and contumelies which the poore Emperour was faine to endure betweene the Pope and Papistes while sundrie waies he sought to retaine his state But in fine Rodulph a Duke one of his subiectes was chosen Emperour against him The Pope to strengthen Rodulph sent him a kingly crowne and pricking him forward to defend valiantly the Church against Henrie did graunt in the name of Peter and Paule a pardon and forgiuenes of all sinnes both in this life and in the life to come to all that were obedient and faithfull vnto him When that would not sârue for the newe Emperour was staine by Henrie in the field his owne naturall children were raised against their father first Conrade the eldest then Henrie the next Which Henrie spoiled him at last of the Empire and brought him to such miserie that he was faine to begge meat and drinke of the Bishop of Spier in a Church which him selfe had built promising to earne it by doing there a clerkes duetie for hee could serue the quire And not obteining that he pined away and died for sorow This dreadfull example of Henrie the third aduaunced much the credit of the Popes authoritie The more because that when Vecilo the chiefest Bishop of the Germanes had denyed in the time of those sturres and troubles that the Emperour might be depriued of his crowne and kingdom by the Pope there was a Councel gathered in which the Popes legate being present at it Vecilo was condemned of heresie for that opinion For when the doctrine also was receiued besids the practise that the Pope might lawfully depose kings and Emperours it made the tallest cedars of Libanus to shake and to feare the bramble least fyre should come out from him and consume them Which appeered in Henrie the fourth the next Emperour Who though he began to tread his fathers steppes and tooke Pope Paschal prisoner whereby they grewe to composition confirmed by the Popes othe that Bishops and Abbats chosen by free voices should be inuested with ring and stafâe by the Emperour without Simonie and being so inuested might lawfully receiue consecration of their archbishop but he who were chosen by the clergie and people and not inuested by the Emperour should be consecrated of no man yet when he was set at libertie againe and breaking his couenants ãâ¦ã with open periurie condemned both the graunt which he had made to the Emperour and the Emperour himselfe and that with the consent of many Bishops of sundrie prouâââes
in two Councels held at Rome the Emperour afraid of his fathers ende was glad to surrender the graunt of Pope Paschal into the hands of Pope Calistus and to restore him the possessions and royalties of S. Peter Thus was the Pope nâw become at the least the Emperours péere One policie there is left whereby he became the Emperours Lord. When Charles the great king of âraunce by inheritance of Italie by conquest had after great benefites bestowed on the Papacie restored Pope Leo cast out by the Romans and come himselfe in person to Rome to see him setled the Pope in recompense and token of a thankefull minde thought good to honour him with the title of Emperour Which he did with ioly ceremonies and solemnitie laying an imperiall robe vpon his bodie a crowne of gold vpon his head anoynting him as Sadok did Salomon with oyle the people crying out thrise with ioyfull shoutes God saue Charles the great the godly Emperour of the Romans This honour the posteritie of Charles which succéeded him some times the Pope desired them sometimes themselues desired and vsed to receiue with the like solemnitie and holy pompe at Rome as their father had In processe of time the race of Charles lost the kingdome of Italie and Otho the German got it as Charles did by conquest Otho was crowned Emperour with the like solemnitie And from that time forward he that was king of Germanie held also the kingdome of Italie with the westerne Empire and therefore did receiue three crownes one of Germanie at Aken by the Bishop of Mens an other of Italie at Milan by the Bishop of Milan the third of the Empire at Rome by the Pope Neither did he vse the title of Emperour before the Pope had crouned him but was called the king of Germanie and Italie or the king of Romans and Emperour appointed But the Pope as a wise and politike Prince turned this point of ceremonie into a point of substance when he saw his time and because he gaue the title of Emperour and set a crowne on Emperours heads he sought to perswade men that he gaue the Empire and right of the crowne The time fit to doo it was when the troubles of the two Henries and the Councels sentence against Bishop Vecilo had bredde an opinion that the Pope had right to depose Emperours For thereof men would gather that he had right to make them also Wherefore when Lotharius the next after the Henries was crowned Emperour at Rome Pope Innocent the second who set the crowne vpon him caused the dooing of it to be painted on a wall in his palace of Lateran and vnder the picture these verses to be writen Rex venit ante fores iurans prius vrbis honores Pòst homo fit Papae sumit quo dante coronam The king doth come before the gate first swearing to the cities state The Popes man then doth he become of his gift doth take the crowne So finely by the Popes painting and poetrie was the feate wrought and as it were the whéele of thinges turned about that whereas the Pope before held his Princedome of the Emperour in fee now must the Emperour be thought to hold his Empire of the Pope in âee For though it be said that Painters and Poets may faine by authoritie yet he and his mates wâo fained this pageant did meane it should be taken for a matter of truth The proofe whereof appeared not many yeares after in the next Emperour that was crowned at Rome euen Friderike the first The Pope who crowned him it was Pope Nicolas Breake-speare called Adrian the fourth sending by occasion two legates vnto him Rowland and Bernard Cardinals with letters concerning the thing for which hée sent them did mention therein what honorable curtesie hee had shewed the Emperour and giuen him this benefite that he bestowed the crowne of the Empire on him Which letters being read the Emperour and his Nobles tooke it very euill that the Pope should write that he had giuen the Emperour the crowne of the Empire by way of a benefite And fearing least thereby he should meane that which some auouched also commonly that the kinges of Germanie doo obteine the Empire by the benefite of the Popes for the picture verses in the Palace of Lateran did plainely signifie as much they could not containe their griefe but they must needes say that the Empire is not the Popes benefite To whom when Cardinall Rowland one of the legates replyed And whose is it then if it bee not the Popes Otho the Countie Palatine standing by was moued so with that spéech that he drew his sword and would haue slaine the Cardinall But the Emperour stayed him and willed the legates to get them backe to Rome straight and signified by letters throughout all Germanie what embassage the Pope had sent him adding that he acknowledged the Empire to be giuen him by God alone and by the Princes who had chosen him and therefore desired them that they would not suffer the maiestie of the Empire so worthily gotten by their auncestours to be empaired by their default The Pope vnderstanding by the returne of his legates both in what perill they had béene and what the Emperour answered wrote letters thereupon to the Bishops of Germanie wherein he willed them to deale with the Emperour make him do his duetie The Bishops spake vnto him he answered them that he obeied the Pope gladly but the crowne of the Empire hee accounted him selfe to haue receyued of God chiefly and next of the Princes Electours of Germanie his regall coronation of the Bishoppe of Cooleine his imperiall of the Pope As for the Cardinalls whom the Pope had sent hee forbad them to go forward because he found that they had brought letters from the Pope to the endamaging of the Empire Heretofore the Empire hath lifted vp the Church but now the Church saith he doth presse downe the Empire It began with painting thence it came to writing now is the writing sought to be maintained by autoritie I will not suffer nay I will rather leaue my crowne then I will permit the autoritie of the Empire to be diminished any way Let the picture be razed out let the writing be called backe that there remaine not monuments still to raise strife betweene the kingdome and the priesthood and then shall there no duty be wanting of my part towardes the church of Rome This answere of the Emperour séemed so reasonable to the German Bishops that they aduised and wished Pope Breake-speare to pacifie his wrath with a gentler embassage The Popes chiefest instruments to plucke downe Henry the third were the German Bishops Wherefore Pope Breake-speare perceyuing that they were not so forwarde against Friderike as they had béene against Henry was fâine to folow their aduise So he sent two
and theirs hee would take their sonnes and appoint them to waite vpon him to bee his horsmen footemen captaines to eare his land to reape his haruest to make him instruments of warre instruments to serue his charets he would take their daughters to dresse him sweete ointments and be his cookes and bakers hee would take their fieldes and vineyardes and oliue trees the best giue them to his seruants yea the tenth of their seede and of their vineyardes giue it to his courtiers and to his seruants he would take their men their maydes their youth their cattel put them to his worke he would take the tenth of their flockes and to conclude they should be his seruants euen so when the Pope had gotten the kingdome that is the supremacie ouer the Israelites of God that is Christians he tooke their sonnes daughters nay their fathers and mothers who should beget them in the gospell and féede them with the milke of life and appointed them to serue him to be his Chauncellors Treasurers Secretaries Maisters of requestes Clerkes of the Escheker Legates in peace to goe on embassages in warre to looke vnto his armies he tooke their bishoprickes and benefices and prebendes the best and gaue them to his seruants yea the first fruites and tithes of their liuings and gaue them to his Courtiers and to his seruants he tooke their pastours their doctours their elders their deacons and put them to his worke hee tooke the tithe of their Churches nay their whole Churches and to conclude both they and theirs were made to serue him If you M. Hart who haue béene at Rome and séene the Popes person haue not yet perceiued this policie of the Pope your want of experience or rather your education in a Popish Seminarie where other kinde of bookes are giuen you to reade then as bewray such mysteries may beare the fault of it But there are two Italians of your owne profession Franciscus Sansouinus and Onuphrius the Frier of whom the one hath writen a treatise of the gouernment of the Court of Rome the other sundry bookes of the Popes and Cardinals By them you may learne it For Onuphrius sheweth that there are three sortes of the Church-officers which are named Cardinals the first Bishops the second Priestes and the last Deacons Priestes and Deacons of the parishes that are within Rome Bishops of the cities that lie néere about it When Rome had receiued the Christian faith and the Church encreased there from day to day the faithfull were diuided into sundry parishes for their better gouernment and had Elders and Deacons ordeined to attend them Elders or as you terme them Priestes and I will cal them so because I speake of Cardinals knowne by that title were they to whom the charge of ministring the word and sacracraments Deacons to whom the care for the poore of the church and their prouision was committed Now at first the parishes had each but one Priest while they being small one pastor could discharge the duetie But after when the number of the faithfull grewe each of them had more And hence did the name of Cardinals arise that he who was chiefe amongst the Priestes of one parish was called the Cardinall Priest that is to say principall In like sort when the seuerall wardes of the citie could not be serued by seuerall Deacons but each of them had moe the chiefe amongst the Deacons of the same ward was called the Cardinall Deacon The name being worshipfull amongst Priestes and Deacons of the citie of Rome spread to the Bishops that dwelt néere about and they were called Cardinall Bishops though it were long first For amongst the auncients it was neuer heard of neither might with reason fith they being equall in power to other Bishops cannot be called Cardinall in respect of them Yet in time by custome I know not how they got it Wherefore of the Cardinals of Rome six are Bishops the Bishop of Alba Tusculum Praeneste Sabine Portuese and Ostia the rest whose number in olde time was certaine according to the number of parishes and wardes now they are more or fewer as the Pope will they were three score and three when this was writen by Onuphrius but all the rest are Priestes or Deacons And for almost twelue hundred yeares after Christ although the Pope employed them much in his affaires yet ordinarily they liued on their charge and kept their calling and degree The honour power of Cardinall Bishops was as the Bishops of other cities The Cardinal Priests and Deacons were neither Bishops themselues nor equall vnto them in dignitie And if a Cardinall Priest were chosen as worthy of a greater charge to be a Bishop els where he left his place in Rome and ceased to be Cardinall because it is ordered by the auncient rules of ecclesiasticall discipline that one man may haue but one ecclesiasticall charge and therefore no man might be a Cardinall Priest of Rome and Bishop of an other Church But after that the Pope had trodde the Emperour vnder féete lifted vp his own throne aboue the highest thrones on earth he lifted vp withall the maiestâie of the Cardinals as of his Noble men and Counsellours and vsed them as principall pillars of his state He gaue to them alone the right of choosing the Pope the people Prince and clergie being robbed of it He decked them with honour of wearing redd hattes and going first before Bishops afterward before Arch-bishops and at the last before Patriarkes He chose the greatest Prelates of sundry dioceses and prouinces as of Yorke for example and Canterburie in England Rhemes and Roan in France Toledo in Spaine Lisbon in Portugall Milan Rauenna Venice in Italie in Germanie Coolcin Trier and Mens in Boheme Praga Cracouia in Poleland Strigonium in Hungarie and so forth the chiefest Bishops of all Christendome to be his Cardinall Priestes and Deacons Yea they were glad to be so because the Cardinalship was a degree vnto the Popedome Neither did he accustome them to giue ouer their Bishoply charge that others placed in their roomes might supplie that duetie and they might attend their charge of Cardinall Priestship and Deaconship in Rome but for the better maintenance of their owne porte and strengthning of the Popedome he suffered them to keépe the liuings of their Bishoprickes and Cardinalships both Wherein least he might séeme to breake that rule of discipline one man to haue but one charge he tooke order that they should not be called Bishops though they had Bishoprickes How then Forsooth a Bishop if he were made Cardinall Deacon must be called elect Bishop if he were made Cardinall Priest must be called perpetuall administrator of his Bishopricke As namely Thomas Wolsey Archbishop of Yorke when he was made Cardinall parish-priest of Rome he must be called not Archbishop but Cardinall Woolsey Priest
of S. Cecilies parish and perpetuall administrator of the Archbishopricke of Yorke And Aeneas Siluius Bishop of Siena when he was made Cardinall Deacon must be called not Bishop but Cardinall Siluius Deacon of S. Eustaces and elect Bishop of Siena A shift somewhat straunge and such as a while the Popes themselues were ashamed off at least they vsed it sparingly vntill the time of Clemens the fifth He when the yse was broken did wade more boldly through And after him his successours who staide in France as he did and set the Sée of Rome in the citie of Auinion did bring it to a common practise in so much that none almost was made Cardinal who had not a Bishopricke either in title or in commenda or in perpetuall administration So by these deuises which all were inuented by the Popes at Auinion they had now disfurnished many Churches of Bishops to furnish in word the Church of Rome with Priestes and Deacons in déede the Court of Rome with rich and mightie Cardinals Yet this is the least parte of that abomination of desolation which they haue set in the holy places For vnder pretense that it is their duetie to sée that all Churches be prouided of fitte pastors they haue reserued Church-liuings when and which they listed to their own bestowing and them haue they seazed on to maintaine the port of their Cardinals too This was not onely done but also professed to be done to that ende by Clemens the sixth Who hauing made new Cardinals reserued the benefices in England that were void and should be void next besides Bishoprickes Abbeies to the summe of two thousand markes and for them he prouided two Cardinalls to be their pastours Whereof when stay was made by king Edward the third who seeing how the Church and realme were both decayed by thoâe prouisions for aliens did inhibit them to bee seâuâd Pope Clemens wrote vnto him that hauing lately made newe Cardinalls of the Church of Rome he could not with reason but prouide for them as it was seemely for their state this he had doon by prouiding benefices which either were presently voide or should be after vnto a certaine summe for two of them in England for the rest in other kingdomes and coastes of Christendome through all the which almost hee had made the like prouision for new Cardinalls neither amongst them all had found any rebellion so he termed it saue this in England onely The Cardinals which Clemens had then made were twelue Two of them he furnished with so many benefices as should be woorth two thousand markes I cannot say precisely what number that might be But it must be noted that as the rate of money and price of thinges hath growen a benefice worth thrée hundred markes or better now was then not worth a hundred neither did the Pope choose the fattest benefices but such as next came to the net and hee meant his Cardinals should haue that pension cléere besides their farmers shares and vicars or curates So that the two Cardinals by probable coniecture might haue an hundred benefices before they had their yearely two thowsand marke pension But let it be eightie seuentie sixtie let it be fiftie or if that séeme too much let it be fortie The Pope did prouide as for them so for the rest who being ten mo must haue two hundred by proportion Which proportion if it be drawne to all nay to halfe nay to a quarter of the Cardinals whom Clemens and his successours haue made sith that time for these twelue score yeares the number of parishes will rise to many thousandes which they haue laide waste as flockes without pastors to maintaine the state of their Cardinals onely Yet this is but a part of that abomination of desolation which they haue set in the holy places For as though the profits of so many Churches were too small a liuing for the Priestes and Deacons of the Court of Rome they haue gone forwarde from pluralities of benefices to pluralities of bishopricks And vnder the colour of commending as they name it that is commiting them to some of trust for a time till good and godly Bishops might bee prouided for them they haue put two Bishoprickes vnto one Cardinall yea sometimes three yea foure yea fiue yea some times sixe Cardinall Hippolytus who plucked out the eyes of the Lord Iulius his owne naturall brother because a damsell whom hee loued did loue his brother more then him and confessed to him that it was the beautie of his brothers eyes wherewith she was so rauished this Cardinall being deacon of S. Lucies in Rome Archpriest of S. Peters had the Bishoprickes of Milan Capua Strigonium Agria Mutina and Ferrara Of the which sixe three be Archbishoprickes of sundrie kingdomes and dominions Milan of Lombardie Capua of Naples Strigonium of Hungarie distant ech from other some hundreds of miles the other three are somewhat neerer to their felowes one in Hungarie two in Italie But if the Popes haue taken sixe dioceses and prouinces lying so farre a sunder and made them all desolate of Bishops and Archbishops to maintaine one Cardinals pompe and him a Deacon what hath the desolation béene which they haue brought on dioceses and prouinces that might bee ioyned more fitly to maintaine the rest and them of higher calling as Cardinall Priestes and Bishops Yet behold a greater abomination of desolation then this nay then al these which I haue touched hitherto For the liuinges of the Cardinals with auailes thereto belonging were great of themselues and did perhaps content some or if they did not yet the number of those caterpillers was small in comparison But the Popes had other hungrie knightes about them kinsmen officers seruants retainers vasals hangers on and all the rable of their Court whose liuingâs were not crummes of the Cardinals tables whose number was as the grashoppers which couered the face of Egipt And they were also made pastors of Churches not to féede them but to sléese them by the same conueyances of Papall reseruations commendaes prouisions and other such Egyptian tâickes An example of it in our English Chronicles of Henry the third in whose dayes the Pope enioyned by one mandate to the Bishops of Canterburie Lincolne and Sarisburie that they should prouide for thrée hundred Romans in benefices next ââcant and they should giue no benefice vntill they had pâouided for so many competently But what speake I of thrée hundred The Romans and Italians were multiplyed so within a fewe yeares in English church liuings by Gregorie the ninth much but more by Innocentius the fourth thât when the king caused a vewe thereof to bee taken throughout the whole realme the summe of their reuenues was found to be yearely thrée score thousand markes to the which summe the yearely reuenues of the crowne of
of Rome auoucheth in his Nomocanon about the yeare eight hundred and sixtie Rainoldes Nay no more of Photius For it is not he as I haue shewed who saith it but Balsamon who commenteth on him And Balsamon is later by thrée hundred yeares Hart. Yet he was a Grecian too and an enimie of the Sée of Rome and therefore not likely to vouch it if it were not true Rainoldes But Genebrard hath graunted that to be false which he voucheth For he saith that Constantine did giue to Pope Syluester the prouinces and places and fortresses of al Italie or of the westerne countries and not the citie of Rome onely Neither doth he vouch this in respect of Rome but of Constantinople which being to enioy the priuileges of Rome by a law yâ Photius rehearseth in his Nomocanon Now if you will know the priuileges of Rome saith Balsamon they are enrolled in the decree of Constantines donation made to Pope Syluester So that it was for loue to the Patriarkes Sée of Constantinople not to the Popes of Rome that hee auoucheth it that as Rome might therby claime al the West so Constantinople might get all the East Wherefore that circumstance that Balsamon was an enimie of the See of Rome doth nothing helpe the credit of Constantines donation Neither doth S. Isidore make much more for it as Nauclerus citeth him For as he citeth him he giueth him a touch withall to ouerthrow him There is saith Nauclerus no mention of Constantines donation in any autours but in the booke of decrees and the Archbishop of Florence Antoninus affirmeth in his chronicles that in ancient bookes of the Decreees it is not neither Which I greatly maruaile at sith Isidore reporteth plainely in his storie that Constantine did yeeld the citie of Rome vnto the Pope and all the imperiall ornaments that is to say the crowne the apparell and the white palfrey to ride vpon Nauclerus therefore citeth Isidore as saying it but so as though he thought all were not well in Isidore sith there is no mention of it in any autours of credit or antiquitie I shewed you before how the writings of the auncient Fathers haue beene corrupted to countenance the Popes power The storie of Isidore might be wrought in like sort to countenance the Popes pompe his triple crowne his robes imperiall his horses of estate Which to haue beene so it is the more likely because it is testified by men who had helpes to seâch and sée such auncient euidences that in olde copies of Isidore that is not found And perhaps if that storie of Isidore were printed that we might haue the sight of it it were no hard matter to finde sâme tokens there of forgerie At the least it séemeth that Genebrard himselfe suspected some weakenes in that point of Isidore and therefore neither citeth him but as out of Nauclerus and addeth that he wrote at the time that Gregorie did speake much of the Churches landes For if I mistake not the policie of Genebrard he mentioneth the ample landes and possessions which the church had farre and wide through the west in the time of Gregorie to the intent that men might conceiue thereof that the citie of Rome was part of those lands sith Isidore who wrote at the same time reporteth that it was giuen to the Pope But this obseruation which he made to streÌghthen his autours report doth most of all weaken it For neither doth Gregorie name the citie of Rome as part of those landes which in his epistles he sheweth that the church had through the west Hart. But he doth by your leaue For in the fifth booke and the twelfth epistle we make saith hee Montanus and Thomas free-men and citizens of Rome Whereby he declareth that Rome was of the Popes dominion and right as Genebrard concludeth of it Rainoldes Genebrard obiecteth ignorance of antiquitie to the Centurie-writers But in bringing this to conuince their ignorance hée bewrayeth his owne For Thomas and Montanus whom Gregorie made free-men and citizens of Rome were his slaues or bondmen Now amongst the Romans any man might lawfully make his bond men frée and whom he made free them he made citizens as by their auncient law so by Iustinians who liued before Gregories time and reuiued it Wherefore the enfranchising of Thomas and Montanus proueth not that Rome was of the Popes dominion more theâ of any other Romans And so the circumstance of Gregories time and testimonie which Genebrard would strengthen his tale with doth weaken it For neither is the citie of Rome named by Gregorie amongst the Churches landes as I was about to say and at the verie time that Gregorie was Pope the Emperours held the citie gouerned it as they were wont by a Lord Deputie Then hetherto his witnesses of Constantines donation doo bring it small comfort Doo the rest say more for it Hart. Nicephorus saith in the seuenth booke the nine and fourtieth chapter Constantine did consecrate and giue vnto Christ the palace of Lateran Which thing S. Ierom also had touched before him in an epistle to Oceanus and experience proueth it euen till this day while that is the chiefe See of the Bishop of Rome Rainoldes I perceiue it was either a foxe or a ferne-bush that Genebrard espyed He thought he had séene the whole citie of Rome giuen by Constantine to the Pope and now hee hath found that Constantine did turne his palace into a church that the Pope might teach there and Christians come together to pray and serue God For this is all that Ierom and Nicephorus say Hart. But Nicephorus saith farther in the six and fortieth chapter that Constantine endowed all the churches of the world and Bishoprikes out of his treasurie according to the state and worthinesse of them Therefore he endowed much more the church of Rome then of Eugubium and so forth Rainoldes Nicephorus saith that Constantine did giue through all prouinces some part of the publike reuenues to the churches but not that he did giue according to the state and worthines of ech of them That Genebrard doth adde to kéepe his hands in vre Howbeit if Nicephorus had said that he endowed them according to their state and worthines and therefore more the Church of Rome then of Eugubium yet is not the donation proued by Nicephorus Hart. But reade him also in the eighth booke the third and fourth chapters in the tenth booke the fifth chapter Rainoldes And there shall you finde as much as in the former Hart. Iuo in his Pannomia about the yeare of Christ eleuen hundred and ten doth âite certaine thinges out of the charter of the priuilege of Constantines donation Gratian about the yeare eleuen hundred and fiftie Bartolomaeus Picernus and many mo doo bring foorth either all or partes of it Rainoldes Picernus What an autour is he to proue it A hungrie companion who liued
it selfe must not be therfore thought vnlawfull nor was it vsurped because it was abused For Princes abuse their power oftentimes in oppressing their subiectes Yet you will not say that they vsurpe their Princely power Rainoldes Neither doo I say that the Pope vsurpeth his Bishoply power but the supremacie The vsurping whereof you go about to hide with the mist of abusing while you distinguish not betwéene a lawfull power vsed vnlawfully and an vnlawfull power King Edward the fourth did put to death Burdet a marchant of London for saying merily to his sonne that he would make him inheritour of the crowne misconstruing his wordes as though he had meant the crowne of the realme where he meant his house at the signe of the crowne Herein the king abused his power and not vsurped it because God had giuen him the sworde to execute iustice and iudgement on his subiect though he vsed it vnlawfully against an innocent But if he had executed a subiect of the Spanish kinges or had excommunicated his owne yea deseruing it this were an vsurped not an abused power because he did not beare the sworde ouer Spaine and the Church-censures belong to the Bishops charge not to the Princes In like sorte the Pope of Rome might remoue the Roman Emperour from the communion as Ambrose Bishop of Milan remoued Theodosius being of his charge in the Church of Milan Which if the Pope did vnlawfully and not as Ambrose he abused his power But if he presumed to excommunicate other kings or to depose the Roman Emperour the power that he practised therein was vnlawfull and he vsurped it Which example of his dealing with the ciuill state obserueth the tenour of the same disorder in the ecclesiasticall For if he laide handes rashly vpon a man whom he had right to ordeine his power was lawfull though abused But if he tooke vpon him the right of making Pastors or of giuing benefices and Bishoprickes through all the world hee did vsurpe vnlawfull power Wherefore sith the tyranny wherewith I charged him in spirituall things was of the supremacie ouer all Christendome not of Bishoply power ouer his owne diocese the power of spiritual rule which he practised ouer both the states ecclesiasticall and ciuill is not abused but vsurped Neither can you salue it with laying the blame on some of the predecessours as if the successours now were guiltlesse of it For though they doo not all commit the same excesse in the execution of their vsurped power yet they all maintaine the libertie of dooing it and doo it when they list As since Quéene Maries dayes one of your best Popes Pius the fifth hath shewed who hath excommunicated yea deposed also our gratious Quéene Elisabeth and reserued benefices dignities and Bishoprickes to his owne bestowing from them who should elect their pastours by right Of the which thinges sith he tooke vnlawful power in the one to depose Princes as your selfe haue told me that you are of opinion in the other the autour the good autour whom you praysed confirmeth that the Popes bestowing the Church-liuings so doo that they ought not your owne conscience M. Hart and your autours iudgement should moue you to confesse their supremacie in spirituall thinges to be vsurped no lesse then I haue shewed it to be in temporall But if perhaps you will not graunt so much yet suspending your sentence till the chapters folowing whereto you referre vs the third and last point that they erred in office is proued notwithstanding euen by that you graunt And therefore you say that onely this is it which you goe about to defend in them that because of Christes promise of building his church vpon that rocke and prayer also that their faith should not faile they neuer erred in iudgement or definitiue sentence Wherein being driuen by force of euident truth from your maine distinction that the Pope may erre in person not in office as a priuat man not as Pope you retire from all the wards of your castle into the celler as it were and say that in a corner of his office he neuer erred but otherwise in office and euery part thereof he hath Hart. Nay this was my meaning by that distinction at the first As you may perceiue by that I spake expresly of definitiue sentence and saide that he cannot erre iudicially Rainoldes Then your meaning was to put the coate of Hercules vpon a dwarfes bodie For the Popes office is a great deale larger then iudgement or definitiue sentence And when you saide withall that the Euangelistes and other penners of holy write for the execution of that function had the assistance of God and so farre could not erre possibly you séemed to insinuate that the Popes haue likewise the assistance of God for the execution of their function and can no more erre in discharging of it then could the Euangelists in writing of the Gospell But sith you sée now that in function and office they may be as false as the Gospell is true which in euery parte thereof I haue proued you shall sée as much in this remnant also of iudgement definitiue sentence vnlesse you shut your eies against the light of manifest proofe For what doo you meane by saying that the promise and prayer of Christ kéepeth them from erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence Doo you not meane that they cannot teach against the truth in a matter of faith because the Church of Christ shal be built vpon them their faith shall not faile that they may strengthen their brethren Hart. I meane as I declared that they cannot nor shal not euer iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshood or heresie against the Catholike faith in their Consistories Courtes Councels decrées deliberations or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies doutes or questions of faith as shall bee proposed vnto them because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren Rainoldes The issue of our conference shall trye that they haue erred thus in euery point of the Catholike faith wherein they teach against vs as euen in this first of their owne supremacie But I will shew presently that they haue doone it in such things as your selues confesse to be doctrines of falshood or heresie And that will I shew by the same autours or as good as them of whom you vouch so boldly that you are sure they doo maintaine this of the Popes not erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence no lesse then you do âor Sigebert Martinus Polonus and Sigonius doo witneâââ that Pope Stephen the sixth decreed in a councel that they who were ordeined Bishops by Pope Formosus were not ordeined lawfully because the man was wicked by whom they were ordeined Hart. Pope Stephen did depriue them of their orders as Sigebert termeth it did vnordeine them who were ordeined by Formosus He
as Canus D. Stapleton shew but not in the conclusion that is the principal point which they entend to teach Rainoldes Now you may sée how vainely you stâiue for the Pope For this which is your last hold when all is doone I oueâthrew at first by the example of Honorius The conclusion and principal point of whose decrees set forth to teach the Church was the Monothelites heresie Whereby he did not strengthen his brethren in the faith but confirmed their wicked errors against the faith as the Councel pronounced of him Hart. Why doo all the Fathers then apply this priuilege of not failing and of confirming other in faith to the Roman Church and Peters successors in the same Rainoldes They doo not But your Rhemists who report that of them do shamefully misreport them For Austin Chrysostom Prosper and Theophylact doo vnderstand by faith a liuely Christian faith and say that Christ prayed that Peter might continue therein vnto the end Which grace neither they nor any Father saith that all the Popes haue Nay your selfe your Doctors yea Rhemists do confesse the contrarie Hart. Yet the rocke no doubt whereon Christ did promise that he would build his Church and the gates of hell should not preuaile against it is applyed by the Fathers to Peters successors in the church of Rome S. Austin is a witnesse thereof against the Donatistes whom he biddeth number the Priestes that is the Popes euen from the seate of Peter and marke their succession affirming it to be the rocke against which the proude gates of hell preuaile not And S. Ierom writing to Damasus the Pope auoucheth as much I am ioyned saith he in communion to your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke Rainoldes The poore shippe of Christ hath made almost shipwracke vpon this rocke of yours I haue alreadie proued that the word petra which you translate a rocke doth signifie in Christes spéech a stone not a rocke Howbeit rocke or stone it makâth no difference to the sayings of the Fathers which you alleage concerning it For whether they meant a stone as it is properly or a rocke as it may be they did at least S. Austin through doutfulnesse of the worde they meant not to build the Papacie therby Wherfore if you thinke that the name of stone either hath not so great aduantage for your purpose or doth not yéelde so fully the meaning of the Fathers I am content with out preiudice to that which I haue spokeÌ touching the right sense thereof in Christes spéech to vse your rocke in steede of it Hart. So you must doo if you will deale with my argument For the maiestie of the Church of Rome is much aduanced by the name of the rocke and in my iudgement the Fathers meant no lesse when they applyed the words of Christ to that Sée Rainoldes The Fathers vsed those wordes to aduance the maiestie of the Church of Rome but neither to aduance the church of Rome alone neither to import the Popes supremacie by that maiestie And this may be gathered plainely by S. Cyprian who although he giue a speciall tiâle of honour preeminence to the Church of Rome yet doth he apply that of the rock to the Church in general For he affirmeth that our Lord tooke order for the office of a Bishop and the state of his Church by saying vnto Peter Thou art Peter and on this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it and to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Thence by course of times and successions there floweth the ordeining of Bishops and the state of the Church that vpon the Bishops the Church should be set and euery action of the Church should be gouerned and guided by the same rulers In the which wordes S. Cyprian you see accounteth all Bishops the rocke of the Church That as by the church built vpon the rocke the whole Church is meant and not the Church of Rome or of Carthage onely so neither the Bishop of Rome nor of Carthage may be represented alone by the rocke and yet as well the Bishop of Carthage as of Rome Hart. Howsoeuer it seemed in S. Cyprians iudgement to belong to all Bishops and so after a sort to the Bishop of Carthage as he applyeth it yet other of the Fathers apply it in speciall to the Bishop of Rome giue it particularly to that Church Sée Rainoldes They doo but in such sort that they might haue done it to any faithfull Church euen to the Church of Carthage as S. Cyprian did For that which is verified of a thing in generall is verified in the speciall As for example the Catholike Church in generall is named the house of God and the spouse of Christ. The Apostle applyeth those titles in special the one to the Hebrewes the other to the Corinthians if they continue faithfull And so what Christ hath said of his whole Church that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it that is true in euery part of his Church And if he named Peter a rocke in respect of the faith that hee professed on the which he said he would build his Church then al on whom professing the same faith of Christ his Church in part is builded may in a proportion be called rockes also Wherefore sith the Fathers did speake of the Church of Rome when it was holy and of the Roman Bishops when they professed the faith of Peter no maruaile if they said the Church was built on that rocke and the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Howbeit I deny not but that in their spéeches of the Church of Rome they giue more vnto it then they could haue giuen to euery faithfull Church For whereas of the sundry Churches of Christ some were planted by the Apostles them selues as Ierusalem Antioche Corinth Rome some receiued the faith from them which the Apostles planted they had the former sort in greater reputation and called them Apostolike Churches amongst which they counted the Church of Rome a chiefe one as planted by the chiefe Apostles Peter and Paule And because it was famous that Peter had preached the Gospel there whom as the first Apostle it séemeth that the Romans did more reioyce in then in Paule thence it commeth that in speaking of the Church of Rome they mention oftentimes the seat and chaire of Peter For they who did teach were wont to teach fitting as I shewed before by the example of Christ and his wordes of the Scribes and Pharises
Whereupon as the scripture speaketh of S. Paul that he sate at Corinth a yeare sixe monethes teaching the word of of God amongst them meaning that he continued there and preached to them in like sort the Fathers âo signifie that Peter abode and taught in Rome are accustomed to say that he sate at Rome So doth Austin mention the succession of Bishops from the seat of Peter So doth Ierom honor the Bishop of that See with the nâme of Peters chaire But what is this to the supremacie For it is spoken by the Fathers also that Peter did sit and hâd hâs châire at Antioche yea at Antioche as some say he had in deede a high chaire wherin he was exalted And of his chaire at Antioche you haue an olde holy day of his chaire at Rome a new one trimmed of late Wherefore if the high chaire of Peter at Antioche with an olde feaste could not make the Bishop of Antioche supreme head how can the Bishop of Rome be made supreme head by Peters chaire perhaps a lower chaire at Rome with a newe feast If the new feast be that which maketh vp the matter the Pope was no foole in making that feast He may doo well to make mâe Hart. You make your selfe sport with our feastes of S. Peters chaire as though I had said that because the Fathers doo name the Sée of Rome the seat and chaire of Peter therefore the Bishop of Rome must haue the supremacie Whereas I alleaged them to shew that the Bishops and the succession of Bishops in that See is the rocke on which S. Ièrom saith he knoweth the Church to be built against which S. Austin saith that the proud gates of hell preuaile not Rainoldes But you doo conclude the Popes supremacie hereof or els you stray from the question Hart. Why may I not conclude it Rainoldes If you list but the feast of S. Peters chaire would proue it more galantly For if the testimonies which you alleage of Ierom and Austin be examined they say nothing for it S. Ierom abiding in his young yeares among the Arian heretikes in the coastes of Syria was required by their Bishop to allow and approue a profession of faith touching the Trinitie wherein he suspected there lay some priuy poyson hidden Wherefore least he should yéelde thereunto rashly he sought to be directed by the aduise and counsell of Damasus Bishop of Rome as whom both hee acknowledged to bee his owne Biâhop and knew to be a Bishop that helde the catholike faith which praise by that title of the rocke he giueth him In Afrike they were troubled with other heretikes named Donatistes a sect which despised the communion of Saintes and rent them selues a sunder from the assemblies of Christians because there were some euil men amongst them as they said whose felowship defiled them S. Austin wrote a Psalme for the Catholiks against these wherein hauing proued first out of the scriptures that we must not leaue the communion of the Church for that there are some euill men in it sith Christ hath declared that there should be so as tares with corne in the field as chaffe with wheate in the floore as badde with good in the nett he confirmeth this doctrine by the consent iudgement of the Church of Rome whose Bishops euen from Peter had imbraced it still and constantly maintained it the gates of hel in vaine assaulting them So the wordes of Austin and Ierom doo import a sinceritie of faith in the Church of Rome the Roman Bishops against the Arians and Donatistes but neither of their wordes import the supremacie which is a soueraintie of power Hart. If they had not meant as well a soueraintie of power as sinceritie of faith why should they mention that Church and not others Were there no Bishops sincere through al the world but the Bishops of Rome onely Rainoldes Yes a great many and they mention them too For Ierom though he asketh the aduise of Damasus a young man of an old a Roman of the Bishop of Rome whose religion was sound whose authoritie was great and the greater with Ierom because he knew him well as hauing lerned him selfe the faith of Christ in Rome where he was baptized yet doth he name S. Ambrose the Bishop then of Milan as sound in faith also and the Bishops of Aegypt yea of the west in generall Now in the west saith he the sunne of righteousnes ariseth and the inheritance of the Fathers is kept vncorrupted amongst you alone In like sort doth Austin note against the Donatistes whose canker had fretted but a péece of Afrike that Bishops of the coastes and countries beyond sea and Churches through the whole world were pure from their heresie Howbeit as Ierom preferred the aduise of Damasus before others to confirme himselfe so did Austin choose the Church of Rome aboue the rest to confirme his brethren For he penned his Psalme wherin this is writen of purpose to the capacitie of the very meanest simplest of the people that they might vnderstaÌd and remember the state of the controuersie with the Donatistes Wherefore he commendeth the truth by the authoritie of the Church of Rome which of all the Churches that the Apostles planted was both néerest to them and best estéemed of amongst them But how farre S. Austin was from your fansie of the Popes supremacie when he alleaged the Church of Rome to this intent let that bee a token that writing for the learned who were of greater reach he alleageth the Churches of Ierusalem of Corinth of Antioche Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus of Asia Bithynia Galatia Cappadocia in a worde of all the rest as well as of Rome And this may be semblably noted in S. Ierom. Who when the Arians charged him with heresie did iustifie his faith by his communion with the Churches of the west and of Aegypt of Damasus Bishop of Rome and Peter Bishop of Alexandria According to the law of the Emperour Theodosius wherein it is decréed that all they should be named and esteemed Catholikes who beleeued of the Trinitie as Damasus and Peter did the rest to be accounted and punished as heretikes A great prayse I graunt of the faith of Damasus that so good an Emperour did set him for a sampler whom Christians should folow but a prayse common ãâã him with Peter Bishop of Alexandria and common to them both with sundrie Bishops of the East Nectarius Pelagius Diodorus Amphilochius Helladius Otreinâs Gregorie Nyââen and mo Of whom the same Emperour did ãâã make an other law that none should haue the chârge of âishoprickes committed to them but such as weââ of their faith Whereby you may perceyue that the prayse giuen to Damasus by Ierom proueth a sound faith common to the Bishop of Rome with many other not a soueraine power peculiar to him alone aboue all Hart. Then
you graunt at least that the Bishop of Rome cannot erre in faith by S. Ieroms iudgement Rainoldes Or at least you take it though neither I doo graunt it nor is it proued by S. Ierom. But this is proued and I grant it that he did not erre in the faith of the Trinitie when Damasus was Bishop of Rome Hart. When Damasus was Bishop Why do you so restraine it S. Ieroms wordes be generall I am ioyned in communion vnto your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke Behold to Peters chaire He speaketh not to Damasus as in respect of Damasus but in respect of the chaire and so of the succession of the Bishops of Rome that what hee saith to one belongeth to them all Rainoldes If you set his wordes vpon such tenters they will neuer hold For him selfe reporteth that the next Bishop of Rome before Damasus Liberius by name subscribed to the Arian heresie Hart. S. Ierom reporteth so but he might be deceiued by some misreporte For he could say nothing more of that matter then what he had by heare-say Rainoldes But seing that hee liued so néere to that time and in the same place and loued the Sée of Rome and yet doth report this matter of Liberius and report it constantly not onely in his booke of Ecclesiasticall writers but in his Chronicle also it is more likely that hee did both know and testifie the truth then Pontacus who maketh your exception against him or any man that liueth now Hart. Why will not you credit a man that liueth now in any thing against S. Ierom Rainoldes Yes if he bring me good reason to disproue him Hart. And Pontacus doth so For he sheweth that Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius do call Liberius a blessed man and that Athanasius doth frée him from the spot of Arianisme Rainoldes Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius do call Liberius a blessed man What Therefore he subscribed not to the Arian heresie Then you may say that Peter did not deny Christ. For Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius doo call Peter a blessed man They are blessed who repent them selues of their sinnes as Peter did of his denyall and so might Liberius doo of his subscription As for Athanasius though hee say that Liberius condemned the heresie of the Arians and therefore suffered banishment yet hee saith withall that hee continued not in suffering banishment to the end but through feare of death subscribed to that heresie with his hand though with his heart he were still against it Thus euen Athanasius who liued at the same time with Liberius and knew his state well acknowledgeth that he subscribed though iudging most friendly both for his owne sake and the causes that he consented not But Damasus Bishop of Rome who succéeded Liberius and might know the matter better then Athanasius doth write that Liberius did consent also to Constantius the Arian Hart. Although this be writen in the booke of Damasus yet it is not likely that Damasus wrote it For Carranza noteth that there are many who dout of that storie And Onuphrius a man verie skilfull of antiquities chiefly of the Roman discrediteth both the report and the autour of it saying that Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie was as hee thinketh the first who beleeued it and thrust it into the booke of Damasus as many other thinges besides Rainoldes What Anastasius did I know not But if he stuffed Damasus with any thing of his owne it was belike in such thinges rather as aduance then empeach the Popes credit Howbeit if Onuphrius in that he denyeth Liberius was an Arian doo meane that he subscribed not to the Arian heresie and that this report came first from Anastasius what answereth hee then to Ierom and Athanasius and Sozomen and Marcellinus in effect too who wrote it all with one consent the youngest of them a hundred yeares before Anastasius was borne As for Carranzas note that there are many who doubt of that storie hee must shew who they be and what groundes of dout they haue Or els those many may be such as himselfe and Onuphrius whose doubting may not preiudice the credit of historians that wrote a thousand yeares before them Chiefly if they haue no surer groundes then Carranza who to disproue the storie alleageth that Liberius wrote one epistle to Athanaâius and the Bishops of Aegypt against the Arians and another to all Bishops exhorting them to constancie Which reasons are so poore that your owne Iouerius a Paris Doctour of Diuinitie rehersing them by occasion hath withall refuted them But sée to what miserable shiftes you are driuen to vphold the pride of the man of Rome Because it were a staine vnto his supremacie if his predecessour Liberius subscribed against the Catholike faith therefore you rather choose to deny it and how First the autoritie of Ierom is alleaged affirming it in his Chronicle Your Pighius doth answere that some hath interlaced those wordes into his Chronicle through ignorance or fraude When this answere séemed hard because Ierom hath other where affirmed it also your Pontacus to helpe it replieth that Ierom could say nought thereof but what he had by heare-say When proofe of this heare-say is made out of Damasus your Onuphrius supposeth him to be corrupted by Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie When Sozomen a Gréeke writer confirmeth Damasus and Ierom Your Christophorson who translateth him doth make him hold his peace or rather witnesse to the contrary For where he saith in his owne tongue that the Emperour compelled Liberius to subscribe he saith by your translâtor the Emperour assayed to compel him And where he saith in his owne tongue that certaine Arian Bishops procured him to consent he saith by your translator they endeuored that he should consent When farder Marcellinus is found to agrée with Sozomens report your Genebrard séeing Ierom approued by them both doth raze out that of Pontaâus that Ierom could say nought thereof but by heare-say and doth assalt him with the Fathers Wherein besides them whom you alleaged out of Pontacus he citeth Socrates and Theodoret Socrates declaring that Liberius was no Arian in the time of Valens the Emperour as though this were a proofe that hee subscribed not to the Arian heresie in the time of Constantius Theodoret auouching that the west was alwayes free form Arianisme which is lesse to the purpose Theodoret speaking generally as for the most part and in respect of the East by way of comparison For himselfe had shewed before that Auxentius a westerne Bishop was an Arian Now for Athanasius who is the most auncient witnesse of this matter and of such valure that your Andradius could not but yéeld himselfe vnto him yet Genebrard Pontacus thought it good policie to name him as gainesaying
Ierom therein where Ierom saith the same that he doth so plainely fully that your Hosius is faine to shape one answere to them both that they beleeued a false rumour Wherewith your Bellarmin doth cast them off too And this shift of laying the blame on false rumours séemed so hansome to your Surius that he belike misliking Onuphrius shift of Anastasius applyeth it to Damasus also For colouring wherof he saith that very auncient historians and writers beare witnesse of Liberius most constant perseuerance in defense of the Catholike faith But being not able to name as much as one of these very auncient historians and writers of whom hee boasteth with shamelesse lye he sendeth his reader a thing most ridiculous to Nicephorus a late writer who saith he doubtlesse did draw his writings out of the auncient In déede that which Nicephorus hath of this point he drewe it out of Sozomen and if the Gréeke were extant the truth were easily tryed but either he did change his autour in three wordes which is not likely sith he folowed him through all the chapter foote by foote or which is most likely your Langus who translated him out ofa writeÌ copie was as bold with him as Christopherson with Sozomen Such follies and treacheries you wrappe your selues in to kéepe men from opinion that a Pope subscribed to the Arian heresie Which had you not hardened your faces as flint to sooth the presumption of the Papall See I sée no cause why you should doo chiefely sith your selues do teach as I haue shewed that the Pope may be an heretike and not subscribe to heresie onely But if you be affected so tenderly to the Pope that you will rather graunt any fault in others then such a spot in him if you can say with out blushing that Damasus was corrupted Athanasius light of credit Marcellinus a false Chronicler that Sozomen is truer in Latin then in Gréeke in your translation then his owne tounge that Marianus Scotus Martinus Polonus Ado Rhegino Antoninus Platina other later writers were deceiued by Ierom that Ierom was abused himselfe by false rumours to be short that the Papistes who liue in our daies can tell what was done twelue hundred yeares ago better then them selues who liued at that time andsince from age to age yet you cannot say but that Ierom thought that Liberius subscribed to the Arian heresie yea that Felix the next Bishop of Rome after Liberius was an Arian he thought it Wherefore if he had meant of the whole succession of the Roman Bishops that which he wrote to Damasus I am ioyned in communion vnto your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke then hee must haue meant that before the time that Damasus was Bishop he ought to haue béene ioyned in communion to the Arians and that the Arians holinesse was the chaire of Peter and that the Church was built vpon the rocke of Arians But this abomination was farre from S. Ierom. S. Ierom therefore meant not the succession but Damasus who succéeded Peter as in chaire so in doctrine and taught the faith which Peter did a faith as cleane contrarie to the Arians faith as light is to darkenes as life is to death Hart. But questionlesse S. Austin meant the whole succession of the Bishops of Rome when he wrote against the Donatistes Number ye the Priestes euen from the very seat of Peter in that ranke of Fathers marke who succeeded whom that is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not The gates of hell saith Austin preuaile not against the Priestes that is the Bishops who succeede Peter Then by his iudgement all the Roman Bishops are frée from all heresie For the gates of hell are heresies and the principall autours of heresies as Epiphanius witnesseth Wherefore ifthe gates of hell preuaile not against the succession of the Bishops of Rome it foloweth howsoeuer you auoide S. Ierom that neither Arians nor Donatistes nor any other heresies doo preuaile against it Rainoldes Did preuaile against it in the time of Austin so you should conclude You haue a pretie policie in citing the testimonies and sayings of the Fathers touching the Church of Rome that what they did speake of the time present then you vse it as spoken of the time present now There was a gentlewoman in Rome named Fabia who being waxed olde yet willing still to séeme young said in Tullies hearing that she was thirtie yeares of age That must needes be true quoth Tullie for I haue heard it of you twentie yeares ago The Church of Rome hath defiled her selfe with idolatrie gone a whoring from the Lord yet she would séeme a maide still and so shee saith her selfe to be I thinke you iest not with her as Tullie did with Fabia yet you proue her maidenhead as Tullie did the youth of Fabia You say that it must néedes be true for it is writen ofher twelue hundred yeares ago But that you may sée how small cause you haue to build so much on those wordes The gates of hell preuaile not against the succession of the Bishops of Rome consider what is meant by the gates of hell and your graunt is past that against some Bishops of Rome they haue preuailed The state of the faithfull and chosen of God in this present life is as it were a warfare whereof the Church is called militant The aduersaries and enimies whom we must fight against our Sauiour speaketh of them as of a strong kingdome which he calleth hell because it warreth all for hel and the deuil is prince of it The gates of hell therefore doo signifie the holdes the fortresses and munitions wherewith the powers of hel doo fight against vs and assault vs that is euen whatsoeuer the deuill can doo by force or fraude All the which is meant by the name of gates because the gates of fortes are wont to haue the best munition and to be fensed most strongly So the gates of hell are not onely heresies though heresies are of them as Epiphanius and Austin note but also persecutions and specially sinnes and in a word all euils sweete or sower faire or foule that séeke to subdue vs to euerlasting death as Origen Chrysostom Gregorie Theophylact and others well obserue Now ifyou apply this to the Bishops of Rome you may sée your error For it is confessed by your selfe and yours that sinnes haue preuailed and preuailed monstrously against sundry of them Whereof it doth folow that against sundry of them who haue succéeded in the seate of Peter the gates of hell haue preuailed As for S. Austins iudgement that heresies of the Arians or Donatistes or others did not preuaile against them I know no cause to the contrarie but hee might iustly say
so then For though the Arian heresie did set vpon Liberius fiersly and ouerthrew him when he being weeried with the tediousnes of his banishment did subscribe to it yet sith he recouered himselfe from his fall and manfully withstood it afterwarde it cannot be saide to haue preuailed against him Whether it preuailed or no against Felix of whom some report that he was an Arian some that he communicated only with the Arians it is no matter to S. Austin who reckeneth him not amongst the Roman Bishops Wherein though your Genebrard doo dissent from him because Felix dyed a martyr as he saith citeth Sozomen to proue it but he belyeth Sozomen to infer on that lye that Peters chaire hath such a vertue that it could rather beare a martyr then an heretike or a Pope that fauoured heretikes yet others not séeing belike such a mystery in the death of Felix are of S. Austins minde euen your Onuphâius also who neither doth acknowledge his Popedome nor his martyrdome Now the heresie of the Donatistes had lesse preuailed against them For as they had before withstood the Nouatians the coosin germans to the Donatists so did they withstand the Donatists them selues both by their communion with the Catholikes and by their doctrine And this is the point on the which S. Austin did cast his eye chiefly when he commended their succession As it appeereth farther by a reply that hee made to a Donatists epistle where hauing reckened vp all the Roman Bishops from Linus who succéeded Peter to Anastasius liuing then he concludeth with these wordes in the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist Wherewithall ifwe consider how they maintained the truth against the heresies of Carpocrates Valentinus Marcion Sabellius Macedonius Photinus Apollinaris and the rest of those miscreants who vndermined the foundation of the Christian faith the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the reason will be manifest why to moue the Donatists by the succession of the Bishops of Rome and their autoritie S. Austin gaue it this prayse that the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Hart. Well The succession then of the Roman Bishops is vsed by S. Austin for a certaine marke of the Catholike religion of the true Church and of the right faith Neither onely by S. Austin but by the rest of the Fathers too For Epiphanius alleageth it against the Carpocratians let no man maruaile saith he that we rehearse al thinges so exactly for that which is manifest in faith is thereby shewed And Tertullian hauing said of them selues in Afrike that they haue autority from the Church of Rome doth teach that the succession of that Church and See is to be set against all heretikes And Irenaeus reckening vp all the Roman Bishops in order from Peter to Eleutherius of his time doth adde that it is a most ample declaration of the Apostolike faith to be of his side against the Valentinians And Optatus reckneth farther from Peter to Siricius of his time against the Donatists As likewise S. Austin farther yet from Peter to Anastasius of his time that he saith much more surely and to the soules health in deed Wherefore the Church of Rome and we who are of that Church haue an assured warrant that the faith which we professe is the true faith For we haue the succession of the Roman Bishops from Peter to Gregory the thirtenth of our time which is an inuincible fort against all heretikes as the Fathers Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus Optatus and Austin testifie Rainoldes You will neuer leaue to daly with the Church of Rome as Tullie did with Maistresse Fabia The succession of the Roman Bishops is a proofe of the true faith for so it was in the time of Austin Epiphanius Optatus Tertullian Irenaeus twelue hundred yeares ago vpwarde Succession was a proofe of the true faith till Bishops who varied from the truth succéeded euen as sheepes clothing was a marke of true Prophets till false Prophets came in it But neither are true Prophets knowne now by shéepes clothing nor the true faith by succession The succession of Bishops was a proofe of true faith not in the Church of Rome alone but in all while they who succéeded the Apostles in place succéeded them in doctrine too kept that which Paule deliuered to Timothee Timothee to others But when rauening woolues were gotten into the roomes of pastours and that was fulfilled which Paul foretold the Bishops of Ephesus of your own selues there shall arise men speaking peruerse thinges to draw disciples after them then succession ceased to be a proofe of true faith for that it was no longer peculiar to the truth but common to it with errour and so a marke of neither because a marke of both This difference of succession betwene the later age and the former the primitiue churches time and ours is manifest by the Fathers them selues whom you alleage For Irenaeus to beginne with the most auncient of them saith that the succession of Bishops in all Churches through the whole world doth keepe and teach that doctrine which the Apostles deliuered Now it doth not so nor hath these many ages since Irenaeus died Hath it Hart. Not in all Churches But in the Church of Rome it doth and hath and shall for euer Rainoldes But if you would say as much for al Churches you might proue it as wisely out of Irenaens as you doo for the Church of Rome Hart. I deny that For he doth not fetch the succession of true doctrine but from the Church of Rome against the Valentinians Rainoldes D. Stapleton told you so and you beleeued it I know not whether I should more pitie your credulitie or detest his impudencie who hath abused you with such lewde vntruthes and that against his owne knowledge vnlesse he knew not what he had writen himselfe For him selfe had cited the wordes of Irenaeus which auouch the contrarie to wéete we can recken them who were ordeined Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches their successours vntill our time who taught not any such thing and so foorth But for as much as it would be verie long to recken the successions of all Churches we declare the faith of the greatest the most auncient and famous Church of Rome Which faith hath continued vntill our time by the successions of Bishops And againe the true knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles and the auncient state of the Church in the whole world and the forme of Christes body according to the successions of Bishops vnto whom they did commit the Church which is in euery place which hath continued vntill our time being kept and so foorth By the which sentences it is plaine that Irenaeus although he recken not the successions of all Churches because it
would be tedious yet he fetcheth the succession of true doctrine from all Churches in euery place through the whole world Or if it bée not plaine enough by these sentences he maketh it more plaine in other both by generall spéeches of the Churche through alâ the world which hee repeateth often and by the particular names of sundrie Churches the Churches of Smyrna of Ephesus of Asia the Churches in Germany in Spaine in France in the East countries in Aegypt in Libyâ in the middle of the worlde Wherefore the successions of Bishops in all Churches were true and faithfull witnesses of the Apostolike doctrine in the time of Irenaeus As Eusebius also doth farther proue by Hegesippus who liued at the same time and trauailing to Rome ward did talke with very many Bishops of whom euen of them al he heard the same doctrin accordingly to that he wrote that in euery succession and in euery citie the doctrine is such as the Law and the Prophets and the Lord doth preach Hart. Yet Irenaeus reckneth chiefely the succession of the Church of Rome as of the greatest Church and the most auncient and knowne vnto all founded and established by two the most excellent Apostles Peter and Paule Rainoldes No maruaile For beside the credit that it had as being Apostolike ample famous auncient it was the néerest also in place amongst all the Apostolike Churches to Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons in Fraunce and so both known better and the more dealt with In the which respect other of the Fathers did chiefely name it too As may appéere by Tertullian the next of them whom you alleage For he setting downe the same prescription against heretikes which Irenaeus had before him doth speake of it thus Runne ouer the Apostolike Churches at which the very chaires of the Apostles are sate on yet in their places at which their authenticall letters are recited sounding out the voyce and representing the face of euery one of them Is Achaia next vnto thee Thou hast Corinth If thou be not farre from Macedonia thou hast Philippi thou hast the Thessalonians If thou canst go into Asia thou hast Ephesus If thou lye neere to Italu thou hast Rome whence wee haue authoritie also Whence we haue authoritie saith Tertullian in Afrike for he was of the Church of Carthage So Optatus was Bishop of Mileuis in Afrike So Austin was Bishop of Hippon in Afrike Which if you consider you may sée somwhat in it why Optatus and Austin should recken the succesâiâon of the Roman Church rather then of others Specially sith Austin doth vrge against the Donatists not onely that but all Churches and with the chaire of the Church of Rome wherein Peter sate and Anastasius sitteth now he matcheth the chaire of the Church of Ierusalem wherein Iames sate and Iohn sitteth now As for Epiphanius whom of the East Church you ioyne to them of the West as prouing the soundnes of faith in like sort by the Roman succession you do him iniurie For neither doth he mention it but to note the time in which an heresie did budde and this is that manifest that is meant by him it is your Stapletons art to make it manifest in faith and what he saith thereof he boroweth it of Irenaeus and therefore reckneth fewe of the Bishops of Rome whereas he reckeneth all the Bishops of Ierusalem to like intent against the Manichees so that Ierusalem if we would toy as you doo passeth Rome with him But in a word to cut off your cauill of succession of Bishops in the Roman Church whereby you would proue your faith to be sound because the Fathers proued the faith in their time so the eldest of the Fathers whom you alleage proued it by the succession of all Churches the next by the succession of all Apostolike Churches the yongest by them all in effect by some namely Wherefore if the succession of the Church of Rome doo proue that the Romans haue hitherto continued in the true faith because by that succession the Fathers proued the true faith then also the succession of the East Churches of Ephesus Smyrna Corinth Philippi and Thessalonica doo proue that they haue hithertoo continued in the true faith because by their succession the Fathers proued the true faith But your selues do write that the Greekes of whom these East Churches are haue failed in the faith and yeelded vnto sundry heresies The spéeches therefore of the Fathers touching the succession of the Bishops of Rome proue not that the Romanes doo now professe the true faith Hart. The line of succession of the Roman Bishops hath bene still recorded in stories and continueth yet We can recken them from Peter the Apostle to Gregorie who sitteth now Not so the Gréeke Bishops the Churches of the East Nay the line of succession hath béene broken off in the chiefe of them as the Chronicles do witnesse euen in Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Rainoldes What is this to the purpose if some of their successions be not enrolled in stories some that are enrolled were broken off a while by calamities that fell vpon them For although Eusebius recorded the successions but of foure Churches in the mother-cities of the prouinces as he calleth them Rome Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem and Nicephorus added Constantinople to them yet the Churches which I named had successions of Bishops too as I shewed out of the Fathers And in them in which you note that succession hath discontinued the faith had failed often while the succession lasted which is enough for my proofe But if you thinke your Church sure by this prerogatiue that the Roman Bishops succession lasteth still and you can recken them from Peter the Apostle to Gregorie who sitteth now what say you to the Church of Constantinople In it there haue succeeded Bishops to this day and they can recken them from Andrew the Apostle to Ieremie who sitteth now Yet to say nothing of the old heresies from which the successors are free though set abroch by their predecessors as by Macedonius Nestorius and Sergius the whole line of them many ages togither haue denied the Roman Bishops supreme-headship claimed it to them selues as Ieremie doth also now Whereby either your reason of succession is stricken dead or your supremacie of the Pope For if succession be a proofe of truth and soundnes in faith then your supremacie is condemned If your supremacie be lawfull then is not faith proued to bee sound by succession To which of these yéelde you To one you must of necessitie Hart. In déede the succession of Bishops in place is no good argument vnlesse it be ioyned with succession in doctrine For Irenaeus saith we must obey those priestes who with the succession of the Bishoply charge haue receiued the sure gift of the truth according to
the will of God Wherefore the succession of Constantinople though they fetch it from the Apostles yet proueth not the faith which they professe to be true because they haue departed from the Apostles doctrine in which they should succeede chiefely Rainoldes Now you say well In déede the succession in place is nothing woorth succession in doctrine is it which maketh all But what meane you then to send vs such bead-reales of your Bishops of Rome from Peter to Gregory as vndoubted arguments of the Catholike faith when we can send you as solemne a bead-roale of Constantinople from Andrew to Ieremie and proue nothing by it What trifling is this to say first that succession of Bishops in place proueth truth of doctrine and then to adde that it doth so if it haue succession in doctrine ioyned with it In effect as if you said that succession in place doth proue the doctrine to be true if the doctrine be true a couple of eares doo proue a creature to be a man if they be a mans eares The Fathers alleaged succession in place not with condition if it had but with a reason that it had succession in doctrine Proue me that you haue succession in doctrine and then alleage vnto me the Fathers for succession For if as S. Austin saide against the Donatists after he had reckened the Bishops of Rome from Peter to Anastasius In the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist so you reckning them from Peter to Gregorie might say in like sort In the rancke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that hath vsurped then were your reason as fit against vs for the supremacy of the Pope as S. Austins was for the Church against the Donatists Hart. I may say so in like sort For S. Austin meant as well of this point as of all others when he said of the succession of the Bishops of Rome that the gates of hell preuailed not against it Rainoldes If this gate of hell preuailed not against them in S. Austins time yet many thinges may happen betweene the cuppe and the lippe as the prouerbe is much more betwéene his time and ouâs But S. Austin meant not to speake of vsurping in that against the Donatists and if he had he learned by experience afterwarde that they could vsurpe and would if they were not curbed For thrée of them euen Zosimus Boniface and Caelestin did vsurpe ouer the Churches of Afrike while Austin was aliue yet who with the whole Councell of abooue two hundred Bishops of that countrie withstood their attempt as much as lay in him and stayed their pride Hart. Their pride You slander those holy Bishops in saying so Rainoldes Which holy Bishops of Afrike Them selues in their epistles to the Bishops of Rome doo note it with the same worde and if they slandered them it was with a matter of truth But of this hereafter more conueniently For the point in hand it is sufficient that S. Austin applying that text to the Church of Rome that the gates of hell preuailed not against it spake of soundnes of doctrine which the Donatists did faute in not of soueraintie of power wherof there was no question with them Hart. Gregorie the great speaketh of soueraintie of power and proueth by that same text the Church of Rome to be the head of all Churches because Christ committed specially this Church to S. Peter saying to thee wil I giue my Church Rainoldes By that same How Christ saith not to Peter to thee will I giue my Church He saith vpon this rocke will I builde my Church And therein if Gregories iudgement may rule you the rocke is Christ him selfe which Peter had his name of and on which he saide he would build his Church the Church is the holie Church that is to say the companie of Gods elect and chosen which shall neuer fall away from the Catholike faith in this world and in the world to come shall continue stedfast for euer with God For the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it There was some affection that troubled Gregories minde when he did chaunge that text and as it were appropriate it to his Sée of Rome and Stapletons heart was taken with some affection also when he cited Gregorie to proue his purpose thence For nether doth the title of the head of all Churches proue the Roman Papacie neither doth Gregory although he geue that title to the Church of Rome yet proue it by that same text The thing which he proueth is that the Emperour who receyued money for ecclesiasticall liuinges and spoyled the Church with sâmonie ought not so to doo chiefly in the Church of Rome For hauing touched his gréedinesse of this filthie gaine yea he hath saith Gregorie stretched out so farre the rashnesse of his furie that he chalengeth to him selfe the head of all Churches euen the Church of Rome and vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer the ladie of nations Which he did altogether forbidde to be doon who specially committed this Church to S. Peter the Apostle saying To thee will I giue my Church Wherein that which Gregorie would say is plaine enough by the wordes that go before it The maner of his saying and prouing it is hard For he saith of the Roman Church that the Emperour vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer it Whereby a man would thinke hee meant to denye the ciuill rule and gouernment of Rome to the Emperour as now the Popes doo Then which he meant nothing lesse for he acknowledged himselfe the Emperours subiect vsed him accordingly But he meant by the right of earthly power vsurped ouer the Church the right of dealing with Church-liuings after the maner of the world in setting them to sale as men doo farmes and leases which is prophane and detestable Now Gregorie being grieued that the Emperour asked money euen of the Bishop of Rome himselfe whose election he confirmed with his royall assent he thought good to amplifie the heinousnesse of the fact as most vnlawfull and wicked in the Church of Rome And thereupon he saith that Christ did forbid it who specially committed this Church to S. Peter saying To thee will I giue my Church In the gospell we reade of Peter that he knew not what he said when he saide to Christ whom he beheld in glory Maister it is good for vs to be here and let vs make three tabernacles Gregorie had a louing affection to Rome Will you giue me leaue to thinke of him as of Peter that he knew not what he said For the wordes which he alleageth are not the wordes of Christ as you must néedes graunt The thing he gathereth of them is against the words of Christ who generally committed all Churches to Peter for he was an Apostle and if any specially it was that of the
name that is solitarie and not collegiate moonkes But the beléeuers at Ierusalem were at Ierusalem in a citie and liued in fellowship together Doo you not sée that the Apostles and Apostolike men were not such as afterwarde the moonkes whom Ierom meaneth and therefore Ierom was deceiued Hart. I will not beléeue on your worde that so worthie a Father was deceiued Rainoldes If you will not on my worde I will bring his owne worde to make you beléeue it For writing to Paulinus touching the training vp of moonkes he saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are not paterns for them to folow but S. Antonie and others who dwelt in fieldes and deserts Hart. He saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are set for an example to Priestes and Bishops not to moonkes True in some respectes And yet me thinkes too But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceiued so through ouersight Rainoldes If they might be deceiued so through ouersight they might be deceiued through affection also For they were men and subiect to it As Cyprian through too much hatred of heretikes condemned the baptisme of heretikes as vnlawfull wherein a Councell erred with him As Origen through too much compassion of the wicked thought that the diuels them âelues should be saued at length As Tertullian through spite of the Roman clergie reuolted to the Montanists and called the Catholikes carnall men because they were not so precise as the Montanists in pointes of mariage and fasting Hart. We condemne these errours in them as well as you and doo therein except against them Rainoldes You doo except also I trow I am sure your Doctors doo against Damascene for his tale of Gregorie the Pope and Traian the Emperour that Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voyce from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked A verie great affection to prayers for the dead that moued Damascene to write this For it is against the doctrine of the Schoolemen that prayers may helpe out the soules that are in hell In Purgatorie they say they may Hart. S. Thomas doth confirme the same Yet he beléeueth that of Damascene But he saith that Gregorie did it by speciall priuilege which doth not breake the common law Rainoldes But your Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then beside that he was greatly affected to Damascen And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer he doth affirme so lustily that all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story But Canus as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are the most of them did wisely sée noteth fréely that not onely later and lesse discreete autours as he who made the golden legend but also graue ancient learned holy Fathers haue ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes partly while they fetched the truth where it is seldom from common rumors and reportes partly while they sought to please the peoples humor and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which coÌmonly are counted true Of this sorte he nameth Gregorie and Bede the one for his Dialogues the other for his English story He might haue named Damascene with them Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onely take by heare-say of others but coyned lyes themselues too wrote those thinges of Saintes which their fansie liked though neither true nor likely As that S. Frauncis was wont to take lise that were shaken off and put them on himselfe it was a lowsie tricke and S. Frauncis did it not but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse Likewise that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike S. Dominike constrained him to hold a candle in his handes till the candle being spent did put him to great grief in burning his fingers Such examples there are innumerable but these two may giue a taste of their affection who haue defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice And Canus although he confesse it as euident notwithstanding which is straunge he thinketh them vnwise Bishops who seeke to reforme it For while they cure the nailesore saith he they hurt the head that is in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre that scarce any shew of the olde religion is remaining in it A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed For though they haue remoued some of those stories which Canus saith are vncertaine forged friuolous and false yet haue they doon it sparingly If they should haue left out all those legend-toyes their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer which heretikes would haue laught at and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion saue that their seruice is in Latin Hart. These thinges are impertinent but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life or S. Dominikes or the golden legend that old moth-eaten booke as D. Harding calleth it of the liues of Saintes I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers but of olde and ancient whom Canus iudgeth better of then of the younger For he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis and Antoninus that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine as to let go nothing that they found writeÌ in any papers whatsoeuer But of Bede and Gregorie he iudgeth more softly and rather excuseth them then reproueth them Though iudge he how he listed he was but one Doctour and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement both for younger and elder writers Rainoldes They who deale with taming of lyons I haue read are wont when they finde them somewhat out of order to beate dogges before them that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life or of S. Dominikes or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it though he who wrote it was an Archbishop in his time a man of name and his booke a legend read publikely in Churches and called golden for the excellencie but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer or Antoninus if you will and Vincentius Beluacensis who are as good as he welnigh you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake but for the lions rather I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too For as not Rupertus
onely but Sedulius doo write that our Sauiour after his resurrection appeered first to the blessed virgin which is false but they thought through an affection to her that he should haue done so in like sort a louing affection to Saintes hath transported sundry not onely later writers but auncienter also from the truth to fansies Gelasius and the seuentie Bishops who were assembled in a Councel with him were assembled about eleuen hundred yeares ago Yet euen then how manie stories of the Saintes were set abroade with forged fables almost a whole bead-roale condemned by the Councell Whereof that some were coyned vpon that affection as some vpon others one of them entitled the actes of Paule and Tecla may serue for an example These actes contained a storie supposed to be omitted in the actes of the Apostles how that when S. Paule did preach at Iconium Tecla a maiden betrothed to a gentleman hearing him preach of maidenhood forsooke her husband by and by and went away with him and thereupon was persecuted and deliuered from great dangers and wrought many miracles and trauailed through sundry countries with S. Paule Which though it be a lewd tale agréeing neither with the circumstance of S. Paules storie nor with his doctrine and discretion yet was it published as true and that in the Apostles age by an Elder or Priest as you would terme him who was conuicted by S. Iohn and confessed that he wrote it for good will that he bare to Paule Such a credit belike he thought it would be to S. Paule that a maide betrothed to a man of wealth and worship and so his wife by right should forsake her husband and goe away with him Wherefore though you minde not to presse me with thinges of later writers but of old ancient as you say yet was it not impertinent to mention your Portesse and stories of the like autoritie For neither doo I know what number of yeares you will thinke sufficient to proue a writer old and though you account none olde but such as liued many hundred yeares since yet are their fables in your Portesse as namely this of Tecla euen out of them also Yea the most of those things not onely this of Tecla but the most of those things which Gelasius Bishop of Rome and the Councell condemned for vnsound I say the most of those things are rehearsed in your legends and in the most of your Portesses Which thing I affirme not of mine owne knowlege for I haue not séene so many sortes of Portesses that I can vouch it of the most but Claudius Espencaeus a Doctor of Paris an eger enimie of Beza the worthier of credit herein affirmeth it and he affirmeth it with great asseueration that it is so vndoutedly Nor doth he touch them onely for these so ancient lyes but for many mo which are of lesse ancientie and that vpon the iudgement of sundry learned men and not his priuate fansie For he alleageth Peter a venerable Abbat who liued foure hundred yeares agoe saying that the songs and hymnes of the Church had very many toyes as namely an hymne in the praise of S. Benet in the which though reading it ouer somewhat hastily and staying not to search all yet he found at least foure and twentie lyes He alleageth an other Peter complayning likewise and reprouing a false and fond hymne in the praise of S. Mawre running vpon the waters He alleageth the Cardinall of Aliacos aduise to the Councell of Constance for order to be taken that vnsound writings corrupt and péeuish pamphlets be not read in the Church-seruice He alleageth the oration of the Earle of Mirandula to Pope Leo the tenth and the Councell of Lateran renewing the Cardinall of Aliacos aduise He alleageth Raphael Volaterran a great historian if not a diuine bewailing the case that in the dayly praiers there are manifest lies read He alleageth Adrian who afterward was Pope Adrian the sixth misliking superstitious forgeries in holy matters In a word he saith that the Catholikes may lament in the behalfe of the Church as Ieremie lamented in the behalfe of the Synagogue Thy prophets haue seene false and foolish things for thee and he addeth that the griefe which he doth feele and open for these toyes dotages crept into the publike seruice of the Church is common vnto him with all good men for the most part Wherein as his desire and zeale of reformation is greater then Canus who would not haue this filth swept out of the Portesses so dealeth he more fréely and frankly with your churches legends too then Canus For letting go the scurffe of the golden legend and Antoninus and Vincentius hee reproueth the storie of Saintes which was compiled of late by a Venetian a Bishop of account and saith that no stable is âo ful of doong as that is of fables Yea farther that Simeon Metaphrastes a great man in the new legends of Lipomanus and Surius and Vsuardes Martyrologe which is the Church of Romes legend besides the Martyrologes of certaine other writers are fraught with much baggage Now to this Parisian Doctor Espencaeus and the autours whom he alleageth you may adde the kings professours and chiefest Doctors of Louan if you desire more witnesses euen Hessels and Molanus Of whom the one writing a Censure on a storie called the Passionall of Saintes condemneth much thereof and enditeth more with this verdict Try al things holde that which is good the other setting foorth and commending that Censure saith it is no maruaile if in that Passionall there be corrupt stories sith the stories which the Catholikes of that countrie found amongst the lying Greekes might easily come into it Molanus layeth the faulte vpon the lying Greekes as they deserue it best indéed Notwithstanding it appéereth by some whom either Hesâels or himselfe haue censured that not the Greekes alone are faultie And sundry Greekes are faultie whom he would be loth to call lying Greekes as namely Nicephorus Simeon Metaphrastes of the newer writers of the ancienter Palladius and Cassianus Of all whom Molanus hath giuen this note that most learned men do iudge them not worthy to be greatly credited Whereby you may sée that the iudgement of Canus touching the stories of Saintes is more a great deale then one Doctors iudgement Howbeit if so many were not of his minde yet should you doo him wrong to cast him off as one Doctor For himselfe alleageth the testimonie of a Doctor as good as any that I haue named I meane that worthy man Ludouicus Viues Who lamenting that the stories of heathen captaines and philosophers are writen so notably that they are like to liue for euer but the liues of Apostles of Martyrs of Saintes the actes of the
say this or that against a man you must proue it Rainoldes So I minde to doo And that by demonstration out of the saâe booke of Genebrard himselfe in which he âindeth this faute with the Centurie-writers For about what yeare of Christ did Isidore dye How doth Genebrard recken Hart. In the yeare six hundred thirtie and seuen as he proueth out of Vasaeus Rainoldes When was the generall Councell of Constantinople vnder Agatho kept What saith he of that Hart. In the yeare six hundred foure score and one or two or there about Rainoldes Then Isidore was dead aboue fourtie yeares before that generall Councell Hart. He was but what of that Rainoldes Of that it doth folow that the preface writen in Isidores name and set before the Councels to purchase credit to those epistles is a counterfeit and not Isidores For in that preface there is mention made of the generall Councell of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius and Stephanus in the time of Pope Agatho Constantine the Emperour Which séeing it was held aboue fourtie yeares after Isidore was dead by Genebrards owne confession by his owne confession Isidore could not tell the foure score Bishops of it And so the foure score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore are dissolued all into one counterfeit abusing both the name of Isidore and foure score Bishops Hart. Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rhemes in the time of Lewes sonne to Charles about seuen hundred yeares since did thinke that worke to be S. Isidores and so he citeth it Rainoldes Why mention you that Are you disposed to proue that some haue béene deceiued and thought him Isidore who was not Hart. No But to proue that the worke is Isidores as Father Turrian doth by the testimonie of Igmarus Rainoldes Ignarus can not proue that He must be content to be deceiued in some what as well as his ancestors For it is too cléere by the Councels them selues that Isidore did dye about the time that we agréed of and therefore no helpe but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit sith I finde that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great when the westerne Churches did commonly-fetch bookes from the Roman librarie some groome of the Popes that had an eye to the almes-box conueied this pamphlet in amongst them and well meaning men in France and other countryes receyued it as a worthie worke compiled by S. Isidore and coming from the See Apostolike But say what may be saide for the silence of olde witnesses which is vrged and iustly as a probable coniecture that those epistles were not extant in their dayes the matters that are handled and debated in them the scriptures alleaged the stories recorded the ceremonies mentioned the times and dates assigned are not coniectures probable but most certaine proofes that they could not be writen by those ancient Bishops of Rome whose names they beare There is a booke entitled to the Poet Ouid touching an olde woman haue you euer séene it Hart. What is that to the purpose Doth he speake of the Popes epistles Rainoldes No but their epistles are like to that booke in sundrie respectes It is ancient it was printed aboue a hundred yeares ago And he who set it foorth saith that Ouid wrote it in his old age and willed it to be laide vp in his graue with him in the which graue it was found at length by the inhabitants of the countrey who sent it to Constantinople and the Emperour gaue it to Leo his principal notarie who did publish it A smooth tale to make men beleeue that it is Ouids Of whom though it sauour no more then these epistles of the Bishops of Rome yet if your Diuines could finde some antike verse there that were an euidence for the Popes supremacie I sée my former reasons would not disswade you from beléeuing but Ouid wrote the booke For to the barbarousnes and basenes of the Latin and style if I should vrge it you might answere that Ouid wrote so for two causes that he might not séeme to be vaine gloriously giuen and that his repentance might bee knowne euen to the simplest To the silence of witnesses that no man maketh mention of it amongst his workes you might answere that it lay hidden in his graue And this you might answere with greater shew of likelyhood then that the Popes epistles lay hidden in the Popes librarie But vnto the matters of which the booke intreateth and thinges that it discourseth on no shadow of defense can be made with any reason For it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie that God shall giue her to be our mediatresse and shall assumpt her into heauen and place her in a throne with him yea the autour prayeth to her Which are pointes of doctrine that were not heard of I trow in Ouids time Neither is it likely that Ouid was so well read in the scriptures that he could cite the law of Moses and speake of Iacob and Esau and allude to Salomon in Ecclesiastes Euen so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome although you haue gloses to shift of other reasons yet I am perswaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them For the scriptures are so alleaged and such pointes are taught about the gouernment of the Church about religion about rites about stories ecclesiasticall that it is not possible they should be writen by those Bishops Hart. Why Doo you thinke it as vnlikely a matter that they should alleage the scriptures as that Ouid should Rainoldes Nay I doo thinke it or rather I doo know it to be more vnlikely that they should so alleage the scriptures as they doo then that Ouid should allude to Salomon or cite Moses For the bookes of Moses perhaps of Salomon too were translated into Gréeke by the Seuentie interpreters many a yeare before Ouid and he might haue read them But your common Latin translation of the olde testament made a great part of it by S. Ierom out of the Hebrewe whence it is called S. Ieroms could not be séene by Anacletus and other auncient Bishops of Rome For they were deceased before he was borne And yet all their epistles doo alleage the scriptures after that translation An euident token that the writer of them did liue after S. Ierom yea a great while after him as may bee déemed probably For the common Latin translation which the ancient Latin Fathers vsed was made out of the Gréeke of the Seuentie interpreters Tertullian Cyprian Hilarie Ambrose and other of the same ages shew it in all their writings Nether was that olde translation forsaken straight waies as soone as Ierom had set forth his
alleaging as I ghesse this text on Rufus credit though he name him not did mistake the matter the rather through a preiudice conceiued of the later times For that Metropolitans should professe Christ it was a thing required then But that they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy it is a wéede that grew âââe or six hundred yeares after Hart. That they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy it is though a newer yet a néedfull order least men should fall away from vnitie and obedience of the Sée of Rome But thus much yet Pelagius decréed as you graunt that they should al make profession of their faith to him be allowed by his consent Rainoldes All within his diocese not all throughout the world Hart. Nay he saith if any if any Metropolitan send not vnto the See of Rome to shew his faith and receiue the pall let him be depriued Behold he speaketh generally Rainoldes So the States of England make their actes of Parlament if any man doo this or that Which yet they meane not of men in Rome and Turkie but of all men within the Quéenes dominion Hart But the whole world is the Popes diocese And that he meant of al Metropolitans therein it is the more likely because that all Bishops were then confirmed by the Pope and it was thought necessarie that they should be so Whereof there are euident and notable examples as D Stapleton sheweth in Leo the great about the election of Anatolius the Patriarke of Constantinople and Proterius the Patriarke of Alexandria in Sozomen and Theodoret about Nectarius also elected by the whole Councell and yet to be confirmed by Damasus in Gregorie the great about the Bishop of Salonae who was confirmed by the Emperours he being not made priuie to it a thing that neuer happened vnder any Christian Prince before saith Gregorie Yea Bishops newly chosen were wont to send letters called synodicall to the Pope in which they made profession of the faith they held and so declared their agreement with the Church of Rome Such letters Proterius the Patriarke afore named of Alexandria sent to Leo Sophronius the Patriarke of Ierusalem to Pope Honorius Nicephorus the Patriarke of Constantinople to Leo the third and Peter after him to Leo the ninth Rainoldes But as other Patriarkes did send vnto the Popes such letters of conference whereby they made profession of their faith to him and shewed their agreement with the Church of Rome in like sort the Pope was wont to make profession of his faith to them and shew his consent in religion with their Churches For Gregorie the great wrote so to Iohn the Patriarke of Constantinople to Eulogius the Patriarke of Alexandria to Gregorie and Anastasius the Patriarkes of Antioche to Iohn the Patriarke of Ierusalem and this he did according to the ancient custome of his predecessours amongst whom was Leo. Wherefore the preeminence of Leo was no greater in confirming Patriarkes of Constantinople and Alexandria then was their preeminence in confirming him For as he allowed not them for lawfull Bishops vntill by their letters of conference he knew them to be sound in faith so neither were they wont to allow of any of whose faith they were not enformed in the same maner As for the example in Sozomen Theodoret that Nectarius elected by the whole Councell was yet to be confirmed by Damasus therein your Doctour playeth with Sozomen and Theodoret. For Sozomen neither saith it nor maketh any shew of saying it not as much as by naming Damasus Theodoret setteth downe the letters writen by the Councell to Damasus Ambrose Britto and other Bishops of the west but they disproue that priuilege of the Popes prerogatiue which Stapleton would proue by them For he alleageth them to shew that the Pope had at length at that time a necessarie consent in the confirming of all Bishops more then other Bishops yea then him selfe before had Whereas the letters mention the consent of Ambrose Britto and the rest no lesse then the consent of Damasus and they craue their common consent in like sort to the confirming of Nectarius as in former time all Bishops were confirmed yea the Pope too by the consent ech of others for better keeping of the faith and fostering of loue amongst them So the rest of your proofes import an equalitie betweene all Bishops at the first and afterwarde betweene all Patriarkes The onely example that hath any kinne with the decrée of Pope Pelagius for his superioritie euer Metropolitans is that out of Gregorie touching the Bishop of Salonae a Metropolitan citie in the countrie of Dalmatia For he was accustomed in déede to be confirmed by the consent of the Pope as of his Archbishop to receyue a pall from him But thereof to conclude that all Metropolitans throughout the whole world were likewise subiect to the Pope it hath as much reason as if you should conclude that the Quéene of England appointeth Lieutenants throughout all Christendome because she appointeth a Lord Deputie in Ireland You are deceiued M. Hart if you thinke the Pope was swolne so bigge in the time of Pelagius His dropsy had made him to drinke vp much but not all He was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese but he was yet but an Archbishop He was not vniuersal Pope Patriarke of the whole world Hart. Your speech is absurd and doth confute it selfe in séeking to confute the Pope For if he had but a diocese how was he an Archbishop Sith a diocese is the charge committed to a Bishop an Archbishop hath a prouince And if he were but an Archbishop how had he Metropolitans vnder him Whereas a Metropolitan and an Archbishop is all one Beside that you graunted him to be a Patriarke for els the other Patriarkes must be his superiours to whom you made him equall So while you striue against him and go about to bring him vnder to bereue him of the supremacie you speak as though you were bereft of sense and reason and knew not what to say of him Rainoldes In déed as the names of Archbishop and diocese are vsed in our dayes and haue beene of some writers in ancient times also my spéech may séeme absurd who say that the Pope was but Archbishop of a diocese when he was Patriarke as I graunt But after the language that was then receiued when the second sort of Popes were at the best I speake the wordes of sense and reason For Iustinian the Emperour who as it is requisite in penning of lawes is wont to keepe the proper and vsuall spéech of his time and his raigne did fall into the time we treate off ordeined that if an Elder or Deacon were accused his Bishop should haue the hearing of the matter if a Bishop his Metropolitan if a Metropolitan his Archbishop And againe he prouided for
the ecclesiasticall causes of clergie men that first they should be brought to the Bishop of the citie from the Bishop of the citie to the Metropolitan froÌ the Metropolitan to the Synode of the prouince froÌ the Synode of the prouince to the Patriarke of the diocese and a Patriarke is all one with an Archbishop in him Whereby you may perceiue both that an Archbishop had Metropolitans vnder him and that a diocese was more then a prouince In which respect I called it a Princely diocese to distinguish it from a Lordly that you might know I meant a diocese of a larger sise then as the word is taken for a Bishops circuite But that you may haue the cléerer light to sée the truth of mine answere and thereby to perceue how the Pope encroched on Bishops by degrées vntill of an equal he became a soueraine first ouer a few next ouer many at last ouer all I must fetch the matter of Bishops Metropolitans and Archbishops somewhat higher and shew how Christian cities prouinces and dioceses were allotted to them First therefore when Elders were ordeined by the Apostles in euery Church through euery citie to feede the flocke of Christ whereof the holy Ghost had made them ouerseers they to the intent they might the better doo it by common counsell and consent did vse to assemble themselues and méete togither In the which méetings for the more orderly handling and concluding of things pertaining to their charge they those one amongst them to be the President of their companie and moderatour of their actions As in the Church of Ephesus though it had sundry Elders and Pastours to guide it yet amongst those sundrie was there one chiefe whom our Sauiour calleth the Angel of the Church and writeth that to him which by him the rest should know And this is he whom afterward in the primitiue Church the Fathers called Bishop For as the name of Ministers common to all them who serue Christ in the stewardship of the mysteries of God that is in preaching of the gospell is now by the custome of our English spéech restrained to Elders who are vnder a Bishop so the name of Bishop common to all Elders and Pastours of the Church was then by the vsuall language of the Fathers appropriated to him who had the Presidentship ouer Elders Thus are certaine Elders reproued by Cyprian for receiuing to the communion them who had fallen in time of persecution before the Bishops had aduised of it with them and others And Cornelius writeth that the Catholike Church committed to his charge had sixe and fortie Elders and ought to haue but one Bishop And both of them being Bishops the one of Rome the other of Carthage doo witnesse of them selues that they dealt in matters of their Churches gouernment by the consent and counsell of the companie of Elders or the Eldership as they both after S. Paule doo call it Hart. Elders and Eldership you meane presbyteros and presbyterium that is to say Priestes and Priesthood But these new fangled names came in by your English translations of the new testament which as our translation doth iustly note them for it haue changed Priestes into Elders of falshood and corruption and that of farther purpose then the simple can sée Which is to take away the office of sacrificing and other functions of Priestes proper in the new testament to such as the Apostles often and the posteritie in maner altogither doo call Priestes presbyteros Which word doth so certainely imply the authoritie of sacrificing that it is by vse made also the onely English of sacerdos your selues as well as we so translating it in all the olde and new testament though you cannot be ignorant that Priest commeth of presbyter and not of sacerdos and that antiquitie for no other cause applied the signification of presbyter to sacerdos but to shew that presbyter is in the new law that which sacerdos was in the olde the Apostles abstaining from this and other like olde names at the first and rather vsing the wordes Bishops Pastours and Priestes because they might be distinguished from the gouernours and sacrificers of Aarons order who as yet in the Apostles time did their olde functions still in the temple And this to be true and that to be a Priest is to be a man appointed to sacrifice your selues calling sacerdos alwaies a Priest must néedes be driuen to confesse Albeit your folly is therein notorious to apply willingly the word Priest to sacerdos and to take it from presbyter whereof it is deriued properly not onely in English but in other languages both French and Italian which is to take away the name that the Apostles and Fathers gaue to the Priestes of the Church and to giue it wholy and onely to the order of Aaron Rainoldes Wholy and onely to the order of Aaron Nay then I can abide your Rhemists no longer if their mouthes do so runne ouer For we giue it also to the order of Melchisedec after the which our Sauiour is is a Priest for euer And they who charge vs with falshood and corruption in that we call the Ministers of the gospell Elders are guiltie themselues of heresie and blasphemie in that they call them Priestes For they doo not call them Priestes in respect of the spirituall sacrifices of prayers and good workes which Christians of al sortes are bound to offer vnto God and thence are called Priestes in scripture but they call them Priestes in respect of the carnall and external sacrifice of the cursed Masse wherein they pretend that they offer Christ vnder the formes of bread and wine to God his Father a sacrifice propiciatorie that is of force to pacifie God and reconcile him vnto men So whereas the scripture doth teach that one Priest by one sacrifice once offered that is our Sauiour Christ by giuing himself to death vpon the crosse hath reconciled God vnto vs and sanctified vs for euer the doctrine of Rhemes ordeineth many Priestes to offer vp often whether the same sacrifice that Christ or an other they speake staggeringly but to offer it often As though there were yet left an offering for sinne after the death of Christ or his pretious bloud were of no greater value then the blood of buls and goates which were offered often because they could not purge sinnes And this âbomination they séeke to maintaine by the name of Priestes sith Priestes are men they say appointed to sacrifice and that name was giuen to them by the Apostles In saying whereof they doo play the Sophisters and that with greater art then the simple can sée Which is in that they vse our English word Priest after a dooble sort the one as it is deriued from presbyter the other as it signifieth the same that sacerdos For
varietie Theirs in small number yours at times and places as many as the sand of the sea And what should I speake of the rest of the things in which you do not onely folow their ceremonies but also go beyond them Your consecrating of Bishops of churches of altars of patens of chalices and other instruments of your Priesthood by anointing them according to the order of Aaron and the tabernacle Your shauing as of Leuites your imagery as from Salomon your halowing of men belles ashes boughes bread the paschal Lambe the paschal taper agnus-deis and what not with exorcized water wherwith almost all thinges are purged by your law as by theirs with blood Your purifying as they called it or as you terme it reconciling of a churchyard or other sacred place if it be polluted In conclusion to passe ouer your festiual daies exceeding theirs in shadowes your mysticall deuises in sacraments to their paterne your pontificall robes in figures incomparable in number double vnto theirs and infinite solemnities of your hiest Priest who entreth once a yeare into the place most holy as did the hye Priest of the Iewes your dayly sacrifice of the Masse though inferiour to theirs in that it is no burnt offering wherein yet I maruaile you came no néerer them for as they kept fyer on the altar alwaies so doo you require it and what should you haue fyer vpon your altar as they had vnlesse you burne as they did but your dayly sacrifice of the Masse is celebrated in such Leuitical sort as if you contended to set forth a Iewish worship more liuely then the Leuiticall Priests could In attire like them in mysteries aboue them in orders more exquisite in cauteles more diligent in furniture aboundantly in lifting vp the whole host and not as they a part of it in ringing of the sacring bell to counteruaile their trumpets in washing often in blessing and crossing in censing often in soft spéech and whispering in kissing of the amice kissing of the fanel kissing of the stole kissing of the altar kissing of the booke kissing of the Priests hand and kissing of the pax in smiting and knocking in gesturing by rule and measure in bowing and ducking in spacing forward backward and turning round about and trauersing of the ground beside the swéete musicke of organs and so forth where it may be had as in the temple it might I dout not M. Hart but you are perswaded that this kind of seruice in your Church is Christian and such that if our selues were present at the doing the solemne doing of it specially atChristmas Easter and such other more festiual times the most of our stonie hartes would melt for ioy as your Bristow writeth But in verie truth it is more then Iewish and his conceit thereof is childish and carnal For although it might be delitefull to the flesh the eies with galant sightes the eares with pleasant soundes the nose with fragrant sauours the minde with shew of godlines to him that doth not vnderstand yet a spiritual man would be grieued at it as Paule was in Athenes and lament that the people should doâte vpon that by which they are not edified and wéepe ouer them as Christ ouer Ierusalem O if thou hadst knowne at least in this thy day those things which belong vnto thy peace but now are they hidden from thine eyes The Lord take away this vaile from your heart if it be his good pleasure that you may see at length what it is to worship him in spirit and truth and when you sée it doo it Hart. There is a vaile rather of presumption ouer your heart who coÌdemne the Catholike ceremonies as Iewish then of ignorance ouer ours who embrace them as Christian. For the Councell of Trent which was gathered togither and guided by the holy Ghost hath accursed them who say that the receiued and approued rites of the Catholike Church vsed in the solemne ministring of sacraments may be despised And those of the blessed sacrifice of the Masse whereat your spite is greatest the holy Fathers of that Councell haue shewed to be grounded on the tradition of the Apostles not on the law of Moses For as much say they as the nature of men is such that it cannot be lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine things without outward helpes therefore our holy mother the Church hath ordeined certaine rites to weete that some things should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice and some things with a lowder Moreouer she hath vsed ceremonies too as namely mystical blessings lightes incense vestiments and many other such things by the discipline and tradition of the Apostles to the ende that both the maiestie of so great a sacrifice might be set forth and the minds of the faithful might be raised vp by these visible signes of religion and godlines to the contemplation of most high things which doo lye hidden in this sacrifice These are the Councels words Whereby you may perceiue that the rites and ceremonies vsed at the Masse are not Iewish but Apostolike as if neede were it might be shewed in particulars of incense by S. Denys of lightes by S. Austin of the rest by other Fathers Rainoldes What of the vestiments too fanel amice albe stole and such trinkets Hart. I euen of them too as basely and scornfully as you speake of them Nor yet are these of ours like in all respectes to those which the Priestes did weare amongst the Iewes From whome in other pointes our ceremonies differ also As for example their incense was a perfume most pretious ours is simple frankincense Their lightes must be of pure oyle ours are of waxe and may bee of other stuffe indifferently Which sith it is likewise apparant in the rest as you must néedes confesse at least for sundrie of them you are to blame greatly to reproch the ceremonies of the Church as Iewish Rainoldes Nay you did mistake me if you thought I meant that they are all Iewish or Iewish absolutely For I must néedes confesse that some of them are Heathnish rather then Iewish As namely the shauing of your Priests crownes after the maner of Priestes of Isis in Egipt Your lighting of candels on Candlemas-day which came from the Februall ceremonies of the Romans Your painting or grauing of the images of men a thing that Christians tooke by custome of the Heathens Your censing of images and setting tapers before them as the Romans also did when they were Heathens To be short the whole substance of your image-worship your kyssing kneeling creeping to the image of the crosse like Sicilians to Hercules your images borne in procession like to the
Grecians idols your pilgrimage to Saintes images where they are most famous as our Ladie of Lauretto like Diana of Ephesus with infinit such other fansies doo resemble liuely the Heathnish rites of Paganisme and grew by likelyhood from the Heathens But I because the temple of Salomon had images although not of men the Leuites had shauing although not of crownes the tabernacle had lightes although not in the day time much lesse at the beginning of Februarie more then other times did speake of your Popish rites herein as Iewish to make the best of them And for all the difference that you find betwixt them of waxe in yours and oyle in theirs and their perfume and your frankincense though frankincense was mingled with their perfume also and made an incense too without it but granting this difference betwixt them to the vttermost yet are yours Iewish in the kinde thereof because they are shadowes such as were the Iewish And it is likely that they who deuised them did fetch them out of Moses as they who defend them doo ground them vpon Moses For the fairest colour that eyther Bishop Durand or others set vpon them is that God ordeined them in Moses law As Pope Innocentius saith that the Catholike Church doth holde that Bishops ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sonnes and againe that temples and altars and chalices ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle and arke and table with the vessels Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth that the sacrament of vnction or anointing doth figure and worke an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Iudaizing that is with doing as the Iewes did in that it celebrateth the sacrament of vnction Rainoldes Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference betwene the Iewes and you that your holy vnction is made of oyle and balme where theirs was made of oyle myrrhe with other spices He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuffe of it would not cléere your Church from Iudaizing in the kinde of the purgation that is the rite whereby you sanctifie Priests and altars No more then if you should sacrifice a dogge and say that you doo not therein as the Iewes did because they did sacrifice not dogges but shéepe oxen As for the difference by which the Pope seuereth your vnctioÌ from theirs that yours doth worke and figure an other thing then theirs did first it wrought as much in their altars as in yours for any thing that I know Secondly it figured in their Priests the giftes of the holy ghost which he saith it doth in yours Thirdly were it so that it had an other either worke or meaning with you then with them as after a sort it hath both in respect of him who ordered theirs and the cause why yet might the ceremonie be Iewish notwithstanding For I trust you will not maintaine but it were Iudaisme for your Church to sacrifice a lambe in burnt offering though you did it to signifie not Christ that was to come as the Iewes did but that Christ is come and hath by his passion both entred in himselfe and brought in others to his glorie At the least S. Peter did constraine the Gentiles to Iudaize as you terme it when they were induced by his example and autoritie to allow the Iewish rite in choise of meates Yet neither he nor they allowed it in that meaning which it was giuen to the Iewes in For it was giuen them to betoken that holines and traine them vp vnto it which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithfull And Peter knew that Christ had doon this in truth and taken away that figure yea the whole yoke of the law of Moses which point he taught the Gentiles also Wherefore although your Church doo kéepe the Iewish rites with an other meaning then God ordeined them for the Iewes as Pope Innocentius saith to salue that blister yet this of Peter sheweth that the thing is Iewish and you doo Iudaize who kéepe them Hart. S. Peter did not erre in faith but in behauiour when he withdrew him selfe from eating with the Gentiles For that was a defaute in conuersation not in doctrine as Tertullian saith Neither doth S. Austin thinke otherwise of it Rainoldes I graunt For he offended not in the truth of the gospel but in walking according to it that hauing liued before not as the Iewes but Gentile-like yet then hee left the Gentiles for feare of the Iewes and dissembled his iudgement touching that point of Christian doctrine But this doth so much more conuince both your Church of Iudaizing in her ceremonies and your doctrine of corrupting the gospell with that leauen For if S. Peter was to be condemned as causing them to Iudaize whom through infirmitie he drew by example to play the Iewes in one rite what may your Church be thought of which of setled iudgement doth moue and force Christians to play the Iewes in so many And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence and submission when S. Paul reproued him But Pope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it Wherefore the Pope or rather the Popes and Papists all who maintaine the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approuing both the rest of your Iewish rites and namely that of vnction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius they doo not offend as the true Apostle of Christ S. Peter did but as the false Apostles who troubled the Galatians and peruerted the gospell by mingling of the law with it Hart. Your wordes should haue some coolour of truth against the Church if we taught that men ought to be circumcised as did the false Apostles Rainoldes Why Shall no heretikes be counted false teachers in the Church of Christ vnlesse they teach in al pointâ as did the false Prophets Hart. But as I haue shewed out of the Councell of Trent the ceremonies which we vse in the sacrifice of the Masse as namely mysticall blessinges lightes incense vestiments and many other such thinges came all not from the false but from the true Apostles And if there be any which they ordeined not that might be ordeined by our holy mother the Church As it was that some thinges should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice some thinges with a lowder For such is the nature of men that it can not bee lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine thinges without outward helpes Which reason added by the Councel doth warrant all our rites both of the Churches ordinance and the Apostolike tradition against your cauils and surmises
and explane the scripture to the faithful people in their mother tongue In the Latin toong if they had willed them to to do it the order had agréed better with your doctrine the people would haue wondred at it Now the knowlege of it is like to breede contempt Beside there is danger least by hearing of it often times expounded men become to wise and smell out your abuses The lesse they doo know the fitter to be Papists For ignorance is the mother of Popish deuotion as knowlege is the nurse of Christian religion Hart. We acknowlege that ignorance is the mother of all errors neither do we séeke to noosell Christians in it but to weane them from it as those decrées of the Councell do sufficiently shew Rainoldes They shew sufficiently that you professe so but how well you séeke it the former decrées of the rites by which the people is nooseled in ignorance do more sufficiently shew Nether is it likely that all Pastours and Curates shall haue skil and leasure to expound the scripture to the people often It may be that the seruice read and heard in a knowen tongue would teach them more in a day then some of them will in a moonth Or if euerie Church had as good a Pastour as Paule wisheth Timothee to be that would diuide the word of truth a right yet they being vsed to heare the scripture read should vnderstand him better as the Iewes did Paule and be through Gods grace the readier to beleeue him And sith the Trent-fathers declare this expounding therefore to be néedefull least Christs sheepe be famished or the young children aske bread no man breake it to them it had béene their dutie withall to consider that God would haue the table of his children furnished with this bread plenteously and as Dauids table with a cup running ouer to kéepe them in good liking not onely that they be not famished At least howsoeuer they smooth their practise in this point it is sure that their reason is beside all reason when they say that because the nature of men doth neede outward helpes for raysing of it vp to think vpon the things of God therefore hath the Church ordeined those rites that some things in the Masse should be pronounced with a soft voice and some things with a lowder the one not to be heard the other not to be vnderstood And yet herein their dealing is the more plaine that they doo acknowlege the Church to haue ordained these rites For if they would haue hardned their faces and said that they receiued them from the Apostles by tradition they might as well haue said it and proued it as soundly as they doo of others lightes incense vestiments and all the rest of their beggerie Hart. Beggerie call you that which setteth foorth the blessed sacrifice of the Masse with so comely ceremonies to the consolation and instruction of the faithfull Rainoldes Nay the name of beggerie is to good for it For if S. Paule called the ceremonies of the Iewes weake and beggerly rudiments when they were matched with the gospel what name deserue yours ordeined not of God as theirs but of men Hart. You doo vs great iniurie to apply S. Paules words spoken of the Iewish ceremonies which should cease to ours which should continue Much more in that you say that God ordeined not ours as he did theirs For he ordeined theirs by Moses and ours by S. Paul Rainoldes By S. Paul Fye And who tolde you so Hart. S. Austin saith that all that order of doing which the whole Church obserueth through the world in consecrating offering and distributing of the Eucharist which order of dooing we doo call the Masse was ordeined by S. Paul Rainoldes Your Iesuit in déede maketh that note vpon S. Austin And if his meaning be thereby to proue onely so much of that order as the whole Church obserued through the world in S. Austins time then doth he disproue your ceremonies quite yea some what more then ceremonies For behold he mentioneth the distributing of the Eucharist that is of the bread and cuppe of thankes-giuing both the which you distribute not in any Masse in priuat Masses neither But if he meant as Bristow did and you would haue him that S. Paul ordeined al that order of dooing which your Church obserueth and calleth it the Masse your Councell doth disproue him For they confesse that the Church of Rome hath certaine rites neither ordeined by S. Paul nor obserued through the whole Church And S. Austin speaketh of nothing but that which the whole Church obserued as namely the receyuing of the Sacrament fasting which custome being kept alike of all Christians he gathereth on S. Pauls wordes to the Corinthians other thinges will I set in order when I come that he ordeined it Hart. It is true S. Austin doth speake of those rites which the whole Church obserued through the world without any change or diuersitie of maners But so much the more doth he proue the doctrine of the Councell of Trent For the rites which they say the Church hath receiued from the Apostles by tradition are namely mysticall blessinges lightes incense vestiments and many other such thinges And for these S. Austins witnesse is of force that S. Paul ordeinedal that order of dooing which we call the Masse For the proofe whereof you may sée a cléerer testimonie of his in an epistle to Paulinus quoted by Torrensis vpon the same place of S. Austins confession Rainoldes And in that also Torrensis doth ãâã you For S. Austin there writing to a Bishop who had inquired of him how those wordes differ one from an other in S. Paul supplications prayers intercessions and giuing of thankes doth tell him that he thinketh thereby is vnderstood that which all the church or in a maner all practiseth to weete that supplications are those which are made in celebrating of the sacrameÌts before that which is vpon the Lordes table beginne to bee blessed prayers when it is blessed and sanctified and prepared to be distributed and diuided intercessions when the people is blessed and offered to God by their Pastours as it were by aduocates which thinges being doon and the sacrament receyued the giuing of thankes doth knit vp all which S. Paul in those wordes remmbreth also last Now what is there here more for your Masse then for our Communion Or if our Communion which differeth from your Masse no lesse then light from darkenesse yet hath all these thinges which S. Austin toucheth as meant by S. Paul what face hath Torrensis who saith that S. Paul is auouched by S. Austin to haue ordeined all that order of dooing which you call the Masse Is this your Iesuites dealing with the auncient Fathers to make them fetch your Massing rites from the Apostles Hart Yet euen there S. Austin doth
saith and he saith truly for sundry pointes of that he learned as namely that the people did and must receiue the sacrament with the Priest and that vnder both kindes Which sheweth by the way that your priuate Masse and Communion vnder one kinde was against the tradition and order of the Apostles by the iudgement of the Church of Rome and Popes them selues aboue a thousand yeares after Christ. But the making of crosses on the sacrament still in an odde number was so farre from being a thing deliuered by the Apostles that the Church of Rome had then begoon it lately if yet the Church began it and not Pope Hildebrand were rather the father first inuentour of that mysterie For Bishop Amalarius who liued two hundred yeares or thereabout before Hildebrand and did both know and reuerence the order of the Church of Rome hauing said that it sufficeth to make a crosse once vpon the bread and wine because Christ was once crucified addeth that it is not amisse to make it twise because he was crucified for two kindes of people that is the Iewes and the Gentiles Whereto he noteth farther that the Priest made two crosses with the host neere vnto the chalice to signifie that Christ was taken down from the crosse being crucified for two peoples And this which he reporteth of two was the order of the Church of Rome before Hildebrand came who controlled it as appéereth by his scholer vpon this reason that Christ had no wound in his side but one and therefore but one crosse must be made beside the chalice Which reason is so good that it may séeme straunge why the reformers of your Masse-booke haue kept the former order against the rule of Pope Hildebrand vnlesse perhaps they thought that Hildebrand misliked it not so much for that reason as for the number of two which number the sooth-sayers and sorcerers holâ to be naught But hereby them selues haue opened their iudgement that not all which Hildebrand is said to haue learned vnder ten of his predecessours was the tradition of the Apostles And it is worth the noting how these mysticall blessings which at Trent were fathered on the Apostolike tradition haue lately got that parentage by the helpe of such as was Hildebrands scholer wheÌ before they séeme not to haue béene accounted so For Amalarius whom I named a man that was likely for zeale to speake the best for skill to know the most that might be said of the seruice and ceremonies of the Church he had read so much and trauailed so farre euen to Rome and that in embassage from the Emperour to conferre with the Pope about them yet this Amalarius speaking of the signe of the crosse which they vsed to make in consecratioÌ leaueth it in dout whether Christ made any when he did blesse the bread or rather thinketh he made none because the crosse at that time was not yet set vp but now saith he wee know that it must be made for S. Austin saith so Where it is not probable that he would haue grounded it on mans autoritie if he could haue said that either Christ had vsed it or though Christ vsed it not yet the Apostles had ordeined it No more then that after the testimonie of S. Austin he would haue iudged it sufficient to crosse the bread and wine once if he had thought that so many crosses as you make were to be required by S. Austins iudgement Hart. Thus you reproue vs as varying from S. Austin because we make so many What may we say of you who make none at all Who nether vse it in consecration of the holy sacraments nor signe your forheads with it nor set it in your Churches nor allow it in the sanctifying of meates and other creatures Though all these things were doon by the ancient Fathers in remembrance of him who dyed for vs on the crosse yea though Christ himselfe haue commended to vs the signe thereof by miracles as the storie of Constantine the Emperour doth witnesse who saw it in the element with these wordes writen by it In this signe ouercome and was charged in a dream to make the forme and likenes of that which he had séene and vse it as a defense against his enimies assaultes which he did accordingly and mightily subdued them by it But nether the vision of Christ vnto Constantine nor that and other miracles which haue béene wrought by it nor the practise of the primitiue Church and ancient Fathers can preuaile with your men but that they must séeke to raze out from among Christians so worthy and notable a monument of Christes passion And yet you will beare the simple people in hand that you are of the same religion that they were when you plucke down that which they did set vp and do cleane contrarie vnto them Rainoldes The signe that appeered to Constantine in the element was a signe of the name of Christ not of his crosse howsoeuer the coiners and crosse-maintainers of your Church do falsly paint it out For as Eusebius writeth vnto whom Constantine did report the thing and shewed him that ensigne which he had caused to be made in the likenesse thereof it was the forme of a speare standing straight vpright with a crowne at the toppe of it as it were a horne which did crosse the middest of the speare a slope So that it represented two of the Greeke letters ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã and ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã which being the first letters of the name of Christ the name of Christ was signified by that signe to Constantine Thus he describeth it who saw it Hart. But out of dout he calleth it the signe or the monument of the crosse q also Rainoldes But him selfe sheweth that he called it so because it resembled some what the signe of a crosse For nether was it like the crosse of Christ fully which had an other figure and where he describeth it he saith in plaine termes that it was a signe of the name of Christ. Nether were those words that you rehearsed writen by it In this signe ouercome as your Doctor saith belike because he read it coyned in the cruseado so or in the porâigue but By this ouercome as if God shewing him the name of Christ should haue said vnto him that there is giuen no other name vnder heauen wherby he must be saued In the which meaning it seemeth that Constantine did vnderstand it also because he vsed afterward to cary in his helmet not the signe of the crosse but those two letters by which the name of Christ was represented to him Howbeit if it were so that not the name onely of Christ but his crosse too were meant by that signe as the Bishops tooke it who therupon taught Constantine the mysterie of Christ crucified yet nether that vision nor
no light which you shall neuer doo Rainoldes Not while you are able to say with the Pharises Are we blinde also But sith there were so ancient Churches which lighted candels in the bright sunne-shine that may be some colour for your Massing-lights For your Massing-vestiments not so much can be found Yet they are also fathered on the tradition of the Apostles Hart. And D. Stapleton saith that if we list to runne through euery one of them we shall finde that the primitiue Church did vse them all Rainoldes Belike you will neuer list then For sure you will neuer finde that Hart. No Why say you so When himselfe hath found it and proueth it particularly For hitherto belongeth the plate or Bishoply miter Rainoldes The miter That is none of your Massing-vestiments Hart. Though it be none of them which simple Priestes weare yet it is a vestiment that Bishops weare at Masse Rainoldes O that Bishops weare Then I perceiue your Doctor meaneth to proue not onely the sixe vestiments common to all Priests in token that they are perfit because the sixth day the Lord did perfit heauen and earth but also the nine which Bishops haue beyond them in token that they are spirituall like the nine orders of Angels as Pope Innocentius and Bishop Durand open Hart. If he proue them both your shame is the greater who nether vse the Priestly vestiments nor the Bishoply Rainoldes But they both togither do make fifteene vestiments which Bishops must put on when they say Masse to signifie the fifteene degrees of vertues according to the fifteene psalmes of degrees wherewith they must be clad And I may tell you it will be as hard to proue that any Bishop did weare those fifteene vestiments in the primitiue Church as that euery Bishop who weareth them in yours hath the the fifteene degrees of vertues which they signifie Hart. Well if you will hearken vnto D. Stapleton hehath proued more then may be with your liking For hitherto belongeth the plate or Bishoply miter which Iohn the Euangelist did weare as Polycrates the Bishop of Ephesus saith in the storie of Eusebius Hitherto the Priestly attire of the head mentioned by Tertullian Hitherto the stole mentioned by S. Ambrose and by the Councels of Braga and Toledo Hitherto the copes which Epiphanius calleth ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã Hitherto the Deacons albe as it is named in the Councell of Carthage Chrysostome nameth it ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã Hitherto the robes or hangings with the which the altar is beautified in the storie of Theodoret. Hitherto the linen clothes and the couerings wherewith as Optatus doth expressely mention altars in olde time were couered as they are now Hitherto the holy robe that reached downe to the feete in Eusebius To conclude hitherto belongeth the amice the girdle the chisible the fanel and the corporace which the Gréeke Fathers Chrysostome and Basil note also by their names ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã Which all to haue béene holy and consecrated to this function the same Fathers testifie There is in Theodoret a notable example of an enterlude-plaier who wearing on a stage a holy garment that he had bought fell sodenly downe and dyed Of the like vengeance of God there are examples in Victor and Bede And Optatus also more auncient then they both doth sharply touch the Donaâists for spoiling and profaning the oânaments of the Church Rainoldes Here is a faire tale for them whose eyes are dim and cannot iudge of colours But they who can discerne betwéene wordes and proofes doo sée that neuer lesse was saide with greater shew For the pointe whereof proofe should bee made is that the vestiments which are worne of Bishops and Priests saying Masse were vsed all of them by the primitiue Church The wordes which D. Stapleton speaketh of this point are so farre from prouing it that the most of them doo not as much as touch it For the copes which Epiphanius hee saith calleth ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã are the garments which the Scribes Pharises did weare with phylacteries and friâges And the Scribes and Pharises I trow said not Masse The robes or hangings of the altar in Theodoret are couerings The couerings and linen clothes in Optatus are ornaments of the Communion table such as we also vse Is our communion Masse too Hart. âay he calleth it an altar Rainoldes By a figure as I haue shewed For by the name of altar he meaneth a table as these his wordes declare who of the faithfull knoweth not that the boordes them selues are couered with a linen cloth in celebrating of the sacrament Of this kinde is also the cloth called ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã which worde importeth not so much as your corporace but though it did of this kinde it is in the counterfeit Chrysostome and Basil. As for the examples of the vengeance of God on them who profanely did abuse garments appointed vnto holy vses the first in Theodoret is not of a Massing but a baptizing garment a peculiar solemnitie more then your selues vse to omit that the matter of the enterlude-player was deuised to spite a Bishop whose harme was sought as hauing solde it The second in Uâââor is of the linen clothes and couerings of the altar such as I spake of in Optatus The third in Bede is added to make vp the tale for there is no such sâorie Finally the Church-ornamentes which Optatus sheweth that coâetous men would haue spoyled were of gold and siluer vessels belike plate wherewith S. Ierom noteth that many though he reproue it as Iewish and superstitious did decke vp Christistian Churches after the example of the temple in Iury. But whether they were vessels as dishes and cuppes for bread and wine at the CommunioÌ or whatsoeuer other instruments or iewels Optatus neither saith nor séemeth to say that they were Massing-vestiments There remaineth the miter the stole the albe the amice the girdle the chisible the fanel Which first are farre beneth the number of fifteene and so they reach not to all your Massing-vestiments Then for sundrie of them it appéereth not that they were such as yours or rather it is plaine that they were not such Lastly if they were such yet how doth it folow that they came from the Apostles Which is the point that Stapleton would and ought to proue or els farewell the Trent-councell Hart. Came not the Bishoply miter from the Apostles which S. Iohn an Apostle and Euangelist did weare as you may sée in Eusebius Rainoldes Polycrates whom Eusebius alleageth doth not mention a miter but ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã that is to say a thinne plate such as was the plate of golde set in the front of the miter of Aaron the high Priest of the Iewes that it might be vpon his his
with the Priestly garment of the holy Ghost Wherein as the garment and vnction and crowne do signifie spirituall giftes not thinges corporall so the holy robe that reached downe to the feete betokeneth that function which that robe in Aaron did represent and shadow Hart. You perswade not me that he alluded so to the robe of Aaron but that hee meant in déede a robe which Christian Bishops wore Rainoldes And what gaine you by it if so much were granted For you cannot proue by any circumstance of the place that it must be a Massing-robe The onely shew of any such is in your last proofe out of the Gréeke Fathers Chrysostome and Basil or rather out of the Liturgies which falsely beare their names or rather out of some copies ofthose Liturgies wherin are mentioned the amice the girdle the chisible and the fanel Howbeit if a man should sift the Gréeke words out of the which you picke these and conferre your amice with their ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã your biggin of the head with their shoulder garment your one coard or fanel with their mo ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã your chisible with their ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã perhaps he should leaue the girdle post alone to binde your proofe with And doutlesse in that which is most maske-like and least beséemeth Christian Pastours at publike seruice I meane that which the Priest at Masse weareth vppermost the chisible you call it I trow or vpper vestiment the Gréeke word declareth that you doo wrong to the Grecians in matching that of theirs with yours For the word ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã by the which their vpper vestiment is noted doth signifie a cloake a garment worne much as single and readie by Christians in olde time chiefly by the Grecians whose Bishops kept it thence belike in solemnities when other wise they left it off But your vpper vestiment is farre from that singlenes nor is it like to that common garment but to a little cottage whence it is named casula closing the Priest round as it were with walles and hauing a hole for him to put out his head at as it were a loouer-hole to let out the smoke at Hart. The high Priest of the Iewes had the like robe Rainoldes Like your cottage-vestiment Which robe was that Hart. If not like our vpper vestiment altogither yet like in that respect that it was close about with a hole for his head in the ââddes of it And therefore you néede not to scoffe in such sort at that kinde of vestiment Rainoldes If you take the little cottage to be a scoffe it is not my scoffe but your owne Doctours whose wordes I doo but open Your selfe are rather faultie who compare your cottage-ragge patched by mans braine with a Priestly robe made by Gods commandement And yet in that you match your vestiment with the Iewish for the forme of it I reproue you not For though there be difference betwéene theirs and yours in sundrie respectes yet yours were taken vp after the example and made in likenes of theirs Which is plainely shewed by those ancient autours whom I named before Alcuinus Amalarius and Walafridus Strabo Of whom the first treating of Massing-vestiments saith that the Church receiued them after the facion of the Priests of Moses law The next that our hye Priest he meaneth euery Bishop hath them after the rule of AaroÌ The last that they came in by little little for at the first saith he men celebrated Masses in common apparel as certaine of the east Church are said to doo till this day And so hee goeth forward shewing in particular how Stephen and Siluester and other Popes and Prelats did softly bring them in and some deuised this some that either to resemble the roabes of the Iewish Priests or to note a mysterie To be short it is shewed plainely by them all that the Massing-vestiments of Bishops at that time which was eight hundred yeares after Christ were but eight in number iust as many as Aarons Whereof the former seuen for the eighth was proper to Archbishops onely are growen now to be fiftéene more then twise as many And doo you not perceiue hereby M. Hart how lewdly D. Stapleton alleageth the Fathers to proue your Massing-vestimentes all to haue bene vsed by the primitiue Church How falsely the Councell of Trent doth father them nor onely them but also lightes incense crossinges and other ceremonies of the Masse on the tradition of the Apostles And sawe I not truely that if you see not how the Christian worship of God in spirit and truth doth differ from the Iewish and so might succeed it the cause thereof by likelihood is the vaile of Popery which hauing brought in a Iewish kinde of worship doth hide it from your eyes For is it not euident that the Iewish shadowes that is the darke lineaments of Christ as of a picture which he abolished by his coming as being the image it selfe and body of them are drawne out againe by the painters of your religion Or may not he that hath but halfe an eye sée that you surpasse the Iewes in sundrie shewes of outwarde seruice and go beyond the priesthood of Aaron in carnall rites For the most whereof though you haue meanings mysticall or spiritual matters which they are saide to figure in other significations then the Iewish did yet they set the Church to schoole with new rudiments after a Iewish maner and presse it with that bondage from which the Lord hath made it frée Wherefore were they taken from the Iewes or not yet in respect of vs on whom God hath not laide them they are of the commandements doctrines of men And we may iustly say of them now being bredde the same that S· Austin saide when they were bréeding Although it can not be found in what sense they are against the faith yet religion it selfe which God of his mercy would haue to bee free vnder very few and most manifest ceremonies of diuine seruice is by them oâpressed so with seruile burdens that the case and state of the Iewes is more tolerable who although they haue not acknowledged the time of libertie yet are they ãâã with the packes of Gods law not with the deuises and presumptions of men Hart. It is a calumnious spéech that our ceremonies are shadowes or rudiments or kéepe the Church in bondage as the Iewish did For theirs were very many combersome darke ours are vâry few easie and significant As S. Austin saith that since that our libertie hath shined most brightly by Christs resurrection we are not laden with a heauie charge of signes as were the Iewes but our Lord himselfe and the Apostolike discipline hath deliuered to vs some few in steed of many and them most easie to be doon most honorable for signification most cleane and pure to be obserued But you
most for his Apologie the prayers which the Ministers for so Eusebius termeth them did offer vnto God may well be vnderstoode by those sacrifices too But if hee meant onely their offerings of the remembrance of Christes death in the sacrament as that which ensueth of mysticall consecrations may séeme to import yet himselfe declareth by the word vnblooddy that he called them sacrifices not properly but by a figure as meaning not that Christ is put to death there in deede but in a mysterie To be short he and all the other Fathers both Gréeke and Latin are so fully and plainly of one mind in this point that the Master of the Sentences in his abridgement of Diuinitie gathered out of them proposing this question whether that which the Priest doth exequute be called a sacrifice properly resolueth that it is not But that which is offered and consecrated by the Priest is called a sacrifice saith he and an offering because it is a remembrance and representation of the true sacrifice and the holy offering made on the altar of the crosse as he prooueth by the Fathers Wherefore sith the sacrifice offered in the Masse is a true and proper sacrifice as you define it and that of the Fathers is not a true sacrifice but called so improperly it remayneth to be concluded that the Fathers nether said Masse nor were Masse-priests And so to make an end with that which you began with the cause is iust and holy why we call presbyteros not Priests but Elders For sith the name of Priest hath relation to sacrifice men by the sacrifice vnderstand your Masse and your Masse is a monster of abomination prophaning the blood of Christ condemned by the Scriptures vnknowen to the Fathers detestable in the sight of God and of the godly the charge of the Lord not to lay a stumbling block before the blind might haue remoued that name from Ministers of the gospel yea although they had bene ordeined to sacrifice much more sith they are not but as other Christians The name of Elders therefore expressing that word whereby the Scripture calleth them as it is confessed by your owne authentical translating it so we could not but allow it Chiefly sith the very necessitie of opening our meaning vnto others which is the end of languages required different words for the different thinges of presbyter and sacerdos For how will you translate that saying of S. Austin that S. Iohns words they shal be Priests of God of Christ are meant of all Christians non de solis episcopis presbyteris qui propriè iam vocantur in ecclesia sacerdotes that is as we translate not of Bishops and Elders only which now are called peculiarly Priests in the Church But how would you translate it Hart. There is a defect in our English tounge that we can not translate it so perspicuously as it is in Latin because we haue but one word for presbyter and sacerdos Rainoldes Then you should not play the dog in the manger nether your selues mending the defectes of our tounge nor suffering vs to mend them For if a man translate it as your Rhemists doo not of Bishops and Priests only which are properly now in the Church called Priests how shal the English reader vnderstand his meaning which Priests be called Priests and whether Bishops be Priests too Nay to come to that which must néedes enforce you to translate sacerdos otherwise then presbyter S. Austin hauing brought against Iulian an heretike the testimonies of the Fathers Irenaeus Cyprian Reticius Olympius Hilarie Ambrose Innocentius Nazianzene Basil Chrysostome doth name them sacerdotes that is as you translate it Priests is it not Hart. Yes We haue no other English for sacerdos Rainoldes Where S. Austin addeth then touching Ierom that nether he must be contemned because he was presbyter what here shal presbyter be Wil you make S. Austins spéech so vnsauory as to tell the heretike that he ought to reuerence Irenaeus Cyprian Ambrose and the rest because they were Priests and not contemne Ierom because he was a Priest Hart. Nay I would translate here presbyter a Priest but for sacerdotes I would say Bishops For that is S. Austins meaning in these places where he doth name them sacerdotes Rainoldes So your translatour doth But the word Bishop is our English of episcopus And what if episcopus chaunce to come in too with sacerdos and presbyter How will you expresse them As where in the Canons collected by Isidore touching the order of keeping Councels he saith that sacerdotes first must enter in and after them presbyteri your Lawier noteth on it Vide vt sacerdotes vocet episcopos veteri more quem ignorantes plerique presbyteros sacerdotes appellari promiscuè stuliè opinantur Wherein if you translate sacerdotes Bishops and presbyteros Priests then your Lawier saith which were a wise speech that Isidore calleth Bishops Bishops after the old maner which many not knowing do folishly think that Priests are called Bishops indifferently Hart. Such sentences cannot be well expressed in English but the Latin words must be kept in them Rainoldes But it is behoofefull for our English men to haue them in English that they may know your Latin abuses of Rome For this is meant thereby that the ancient writers are wont to note Bishops by the name of Priests which many not knowing doo foolishly think that the name of Priests is vsed indifferently for the same that Elders A lesson for your Rhemists who make them all one although not of foolishnes so much as of fraude to the intent that Elders that is to say Ministers of the new testament may be thought Priests that is to say Ministers ordeined to sacrifice as your Masse-priests be For colour and maintenance of the which errour the countenance of proofe that you pretend out of the Fathers is the lesse by thus much that they were accustomed to geue the name of Priests not generally to Elders but to Bishops onely Wherefore to auoide confusion of things which the confusion of words might ingender in that we are to treate off I will by your leaue call presbyter an Elder as our translations doo that I may distinguish it from the name of Priest both as it is vsed by you for a Masse-priest and as it is vsed by the Fathers for a Bishop So to come at length back againe to that which I was in hand with of the second sort of the Bishops of Rome that when they were growen to their fattest plight they were but Archbishops of a Princely diocese not vniuersall Popes and Patriarkes of the whole world the Elders as I said ordeined by the Apostles in euery Church through euery citie chose one amongst themselues whom they called Bishop to be the President of their companie for the better
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâse wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâs absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌtries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
of Constantinople to haue bene meant by Gregorie it is now declared in your Gratian too The Patriarke was too loftie to confesse himselfe subiect to the Pope he sought to make the Pope his subiect Hart. Perhaps he had sought it before but not then For certainely S. Gregorie saying that the Church of Constantinople is subiect to the See of Rome addeth that Eusebius the Bishop of the same citie doth confesse it still Rainoldes There was no Eusebius Bishop of that citie in all Gregories time And they who were Bishops first Iohn then Cyriacus did vsurpe the title of vniuersall Patriarke as Gregorie himselfe declareth Wherefore either Gregorie wrote more then was true to chéere vp his subiects or some hath chopt into him that which he wrote not to aduaunce the credit of the See of Rome But howsoeuer he thought all Bishops subiect to it if any fault be found in them perhaps as S. Peter was subiect to S. Paule and Christians are one to an other to be reproued by their brethren when they do offend but if he meant more as perhaps he did of a good wil to his See yet he meant not that which toucheth the point of the Popes supremacie geuen you to proue to wéete that Bishops causes through the whole world must be referred to him And hereof himselfe is a sufficient witnesse in that he ouerruleth the case by the law of Iustinian the Emperour For if any man sayth he accuse a Bishop for whatsoeuer cause let the cause bee iudged by his Metropolitan If any man gainsay the Metropolitans iudgemeÌt let it be referred to the Archbishop and Patriarke of that diocese and let him end it according to the canons and lawes Hart. The causes of Bishops I grant must first be heard of their Metropolitans and next of their Patriarkes Yet if the Patriarkes iudgement be misliked too then may the partie gréeued appeale to the Pope and so they come to him last Rainoldes Gregorie meant not so but that the last iudge thereof should be the Patriarke as did Iustinian also Which they shew playnely by saying Let him end it according to the canons and lawes For both the canons of that Councell which referred the causes of Bishops to the Patriarkes did meÌtion theÌ as the last Iudges the lawes of Emperours which granted appeales from Metropolitans to them granted no appeale from them to any other nay for bad expressely al appealing from them Hart. Yet euen there S. Gregorie giueth a speciall priuilege and preeminence to the Pope aboue other Patriarkes For he addeth that if a Bishop haue no Metropolitan nor Patriarke at all then is his cause to be heard and determined by the See Apostolike which is the head of all Churches Rainoldes True he addeth that beyond the canons of Councels and the lawes of Emperours But in the meane season he yéeldeth that the causes of Bishops who were subiecte to any other Patriarke must not be referred to the Popes See Whereby it is euident that not all their causes through the whole world were claimed by S. Gregorie And herewithal by this place it may be noted too that when he nameth the See and Church of Rome the head of all Churches he meaneth it of excellencie for sundrie giftes aboue them not of the supremacie for power to gouerne them Which answereth the question that you made before vpoÌ the same title If the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops For the name of head is geuen to that Church in respect of others as if the citie of London shoulde bée called in England the head of all cities The Lord Mayor of London might chauÌce to haue a fauourer who would aske thereon If the citie of London be the head of all cities why not the Mayor of London the head of all Mayors But I knowe no Mayor so simple in England that vpon this sophisme would yéelde himselfe a subiect to the Lord Mayor of London Hart. Yet your selues grant yâ Zosimus Boniface Caelestinus did claime the right of appeales to be made to theÌ in the causes of Bishops through the whole world Who being Popes before Gregorie almost two hundred yeares it followeth that they of the second sort did auouch as much for the Popes supremacie in iudging Church-causes as their successours of the last doe which you denied Rainoldes And I denie it still neither doth that proue it For the last sort claimeth al the greater causes of the church Wherein they comprehend not only the causes of Bishops and the Clergie but of all estates as many as doe fall within the reserued cases as they call them And because these cases by the ancient Councels should be all determined within their ownâ Prouinces not referred to Rome therefore no Councel may prescribe a law they say to bind them But the other whom you named of the second sort did neither take vpon them such power ouer Councels nor claime appeales in causes of any but of Bishops or Clergie at the most As for the cases which Popes reserue now from ordinarie Iudges to their owne Eschequer the seconde sort of Popes was so farre from doing it that they were in their graues many hundred yeares before the sent thereof was felt Wherefore you ouerreachâd your selfe M. Hart when you sayde that the Bishop of Rome hath alwayes vsed the practise of the supremacie For it is apparant by this which I haue shewed that not one of them for the space of sixe hundred yeares after Christ did euer either vse it or claime it as his right Hart. Yes they hearde the causes of Clergie-men appealing to them and held that they might doe so Wherefore they claimed the supremacie and vsed it too Rainoldes Which reason is as good as if a Kentish Gentleman should say that all the Countie of Kent is his own because he hath a Lordship in the Weald of Kent Hart. What doe you accounte it so small a matter that Clergie-men yea Bishops shoulde appeale to them out of all prouinces through the whole world Rainoldes A goodly Lordship and large But nothing so large as the Weald of Kent much lesse as all Kent There are many Lordships mo within the Countie which the auncient Popes neither had nor claimed One Lordship of being subiecte to no man no not to the Emperour An other of hauing power ouer Princes to excommunicate and depose them An other of binding Bishops Metropolitanes and Patriarkes with an oth to be their faythful subiects An other of giuing Church-liuings and offices vnto whom they list An other of breaking the bandes of al Councels with dispensations and decrées An other of reseruing cases to their Sée Whereof to passe the rest which you may finde recorded in their Rolles and Chancerie sith they neither chalenged nor
possessed any they bore not themselues as Lordes of the whole Countie I meane they neyther claimed nor vsed the supremacie Hart. But will you graunt that so much then of the suprepremacie as they claimed or vsed belongeth to their Sée and is theirs of right Rainoldes No. For the exception which I made against them was of two branches one that they auouch not the supremacie of the Pope the other that they auouch more through affection then is true and right And this is very manifest not onely by the dealinges of them whom I named but also by the writinges of them whom you alleaged Hart. Of the thirde sort of Popes if you meane they may be refused perhaps with greater shewe of reason But they whom I alleaged of the second sort were holy men and Saints Rainoldes The Apostles of Christ I hope were Saintes too Yet hath the spirite of God set down for our instruction that they did not onely desire superioritie but also striue about it Innocentius Leo Gelasius Vigilius Pelagius and Gregorie the men whoÌ you alleaged were not greater then the Apostles And the praise which they giue to their See of Rome doth so excéede the truth that it beareth euident markes of their affection You might haue perceiued it in that which you cited out of Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God by which he saith they decreed that whatsoeuer was done in prouinces farre off it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome For what were the Fathers who decréed that where is the sentence of God by which they did it Though this is the least of many friendlie spéeches which not Innocentius onely but the rest too as I haue shewed in Leo doo lend their Church Peter Yea some flat repugnant to the holy scripture and that confessed by your selues For they say that all Churches tooke their beginning from the Roman The holy scripture maketh Ierusalem the spring of them They say that all Bishops had their honor and name from Peter The holy scripture teacheth that many had it from other Apostles not from him They say that the Church of Rome hath neither spot norwrinckle nor any such thing The holy scripture sheweth that the Church is sanâctified framed to be hereafter not hauing spot or wrinckle or any such thing wheÌ Christ shal make it glorious triumphant in heauen not but that it hath such while it is militant on the earth Which is so apparant that not the Fathers only but Thomas of Aquine also and D Stapleton confesse it Wherefore howsoeuer holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleaged it cannot be denied but they had affections and yéelded thereunto as men Howbeit the thirde sort I graunt are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault For it is a small thing with them to vse spéeches repugnant to the Scripture but they must abuse yea coine scripture too for maintenance of their Papall port They can teach the Church that the Pope may offer to confirme Archbishops vpon this condition if they will be sworne to him because wheÌ Christ committed his sheepe vnto Peter he did condition with him saying if thou loue me feede my sheepe They can teach the Church that the Pope hath power ouer all powers Princes of the earth none hath power ouer him because the spirituall man iudgeth all thinges yet hee himselfe is iudged of no maÌ They can teach the Church that Christ ordeyned Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars who by the testimony of the booke of kinges must needes be so obeyed that he who obeieth them not must die the death and as it is read otherwhere Hee that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chaire cannot bee in the Church Hart. That which is cyted out of the booke of kinges is in the booke of Deuteronomie The text is true scripture though the place mistaken And though it belong not to the Pope immediatly Rainoldes Nay neuer goe about to salue it M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we haue alredy handled Pope Leo the tenth and his Councel of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Popes Kinges when they alleaged the booke of kinges for Deuteronomie Deuteronomie for the Papacie But what soeuer you think of the third or seconde or any sort of Popes it is against all law both of God and man that they should bée witnesses in their own matter And therefore if your proofe of their supremacie be no better the iury will cast you out of all controuersie For if I should beare witnesse of my selfe saith Christ my witnesse were not true None are fit witnesses in their own causes no not though they were as worthy meÌ as Scipio was amoÌgst the Romans It were a bad plea in Westminster Hall Iohn a Noke must haue this land for Iohn a Noke saith so The Canonistes themselues when Popes alleage Popes for proofe of certaine pointes touching their supremacie doe note that it is a familiar kind of proofe meaning such belike as that in the common prouerbe Aske my felow if I be a theefe Which they might note the better because it is euideÌt that the Popes haue stretched out their owne frindges in laying claime to large power as great Diuines among you haue written in these very termes Hart. The power which they claimed hath séemed ouer large to enuious and malicious men But it was no more then their right and due Which because you thinke not sufficiently prooued by the Popes themselues I will prooue it farther by the wordes and testimonies of other ancient Fathers Rainoldes Of whom Hart. Of the chéefest of them both Gréeke and Latine For it was the prerogatiue of the Popes office that made S. Bernarde séeke to Innocentius the third Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first and to Caelestinus Epist. 90.92.95 S. Chrysostome to the saide Innocentius Epist. 1. 2. S. Basil to the Pope in his time Epist. 52. S. Ierom to Damasus Epist. 57.58 tom 2. and other likewise to others that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment Rainoldes If you bring such witnesses to proue the Popes supremacie I must request the iury to haue an eye to the issue For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their aduise and counsell some by their autoritie and credit some by both By their aduise and counsell as Ierom of Damasus By their autoritie credit as Chrysostome of Innocentius By both as Basill Austin and the Bishops of Afrike of the Popes in their time Bernard somewhat more But he liued yesterday in comparison of the rest and therfore not to be numbred amongst the auncient Fathers Though neither he by this
point proueth the Papacy And what his iudgement was thereof I haue declared Now for them first who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope I will tell you a storie which I pray consider of Theodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of the Church consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop The Bishop to Sisinius a reader in his church The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke Which the Patriarke liked of and shewed it to the Emperour the Emperour embraced it and dealt according thereunto Hart. You would inferre hereof that the auncient Fathers might aske the Popes counsell and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head Rainoldes True as the Emperour might of the Patriarke the Patriarke of the Bishop the Bishop of the reader Hart. The case is not like For it was the personal wisdome vertue lerning or faith of these men which made them to be sought to But that which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes was the prerogatiue of their office Rainoldes Wherein they could not erre as you heard say at Rhemes But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte must be put in mind that by the same reason Sergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius in respect not of his personall wisedome vertue learning or faith but of his office too And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations which he dealeth with by reason of his office as Pope Honorius did or the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell did séeke in respect of their personall giftes that they were learned and godly Pastours as many sought to Austin then to Caluin lately though neither of them were Pope Hart. Nay it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake For he speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter that is the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus Rainoldes But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers that is the Christian faith which Damasus kept vncorrupted And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned not as a Pastour only not for his office sake alone but for his person succéeding as in place so in doctrine to Peter Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith doth not import soueraintie of power as I haue shewed Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked import it about asswaging of their troubles Least of all that Austin and the Bishop of Afrike who vnder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius in trueth gaue him counsell for feare least the Pelagians should haue seduced him to their errour Wherefore the auncient Fathers who sought aduise of Popes proue not the Popes supremacie No more doe they in déede who sought to further others or reléeue themselues by the Popes autoritie For autoritie power differ that such as are their brethrens superiours in the one may be their inferiours or equals in the other As wée agréed if you remember Hart. It may be so I graunt But they whom I named sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes as to supreme heads of all the Church in power not as to their superiours in autoritie only Rainoldes Their own wordes and déedes argue the contrarie For Chrysostome 14. being called into iudgement by his enemies namely by the Bishop of Alexandria others assembled in a Councell did appeale from them to a generall Councell and as himselfe speaketh thereof to iust iudgement Whereby hee declareth that the lawfull power of iudging his cause belonged to the Councell and not to the Pope Hart. But when he was depriued and cast out of his Bishoprike notwithstanding his appealing to the generall Councell he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force as in deed they were not and that they who did him such wrong might bee punished Rainoldes But in this request hée dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the generall Councell to which hée had appealed a member in power a principall member in autoritie For in praying him aboue the rest to write he shewed that he thought him to be of greater credit then other of his brethren But in appealing to them all ioyntly not to him alone hée shewed that the right of iudging the matter belonged not to him but to them in common Which is playner yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in seuerall that they are forbidden by lawes of the Fathers to take on theÌ the iudging of such as are without the limites of their diocese Wherefore the preeminence which Chrysostome gaue the Pope was of autoritie not of power The same I say of Basil or rather himselfe saith it desiring that the Pope would vse his own autoritie in sending men to succour them Hart. You doe vs great iniurie by this newe distinction of autoritie and power For Basil meant power when he named autoritie Rainoldes You will not say so if you weigh the grounde and circumstances of his spéech For the Easterne Churches being pestered with the Arian heresie by meanes of the Emperour Valens an Arian who persecuted the Catholikes the Churches of the West vnder Valentinian a Catholike Emperour did flourish with sinceritie of faith and faithfull Bishops Whereupon S. Basil conferring with Athanasius both Bishops of the East about their Churches state saith that the consent of the Westerne Bishops is the onely way meanes to helpe it in his iudgement For if they would shewe that zeale for our Churches which they did for one or two being taken among them selues in errour it is likely saith he that they should do vs good by reasoÌ that the rulers would regard and reuerence the credit of their multitude the people euery where would folow them without gainsaying Now this whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for Whom he prayed to deale himselfe in the matter vse his own autoritie in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose because the Westerne Bishops could not doe it easily by a coÌmon conference and decree of Councell So that he desired a Councels aide chiefly because their consent multitude had greater credit as in his epistle to the Westerne Bishops themselues he saith againe It was not power therefore but credit and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the autoritie of the Pope Which you must néedes graunt vnlesse you wil say that he thought the Councell to bée aboue the Pope in power against your Trent-doctrine of the Popes supreme power ouer the whole Church As
for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lââue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌcel nor of Pope though wheÌ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌfirmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned meÌ do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the CouÌcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates SozomeÌ report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that heÌce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
of the fewnesse and oppression of the Bishops in the Councell of Ephesus and desiring that a generall Councell might be kept because Flauianus had appealed You must adde therefore the Empresse Placidia to the Emperour Valentinian and with the ones words of appealing to Leo take that the other sayth to Leo and to all the Bishops of these partes So Leo and the Bishops being ioyned together will make the Councell of Chalcedon by the which Councell the cause of Flauianus and his appeale was iudged The same Councell also did iudge Theodorets cause finding him guiltlesse restored him to his Sée Wherefore sith the Councell was iudge of the appeale if he appealed to Leo and not to the Councell it was an ouersight Unlesse perhaps he did not appeale as to a higher iudge that might restore him but as to a man of learning and autoritie whose credit and iudgement might helpe to proue him not guiltie And this doth the tenour of his request pretend Though asking wiâhall the aduise of Leo whether he shall beare that wrongfull depriuation or seeke to be restored he séemeth to haue thought of a further matter Which yet he toucheth so in speaking of troubling men and crauing Leos prayers that it is euident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him Wherefore the most that you may well imagine of an appeale made by Theodoret to Leo for remedie of the wrong done him is that Leo tooke his bill of appeale to preferre it to the Councell whereof he was President As with vs in England the billes are put vp to the Speaker of the Parlament that he may informe the Parlament thereof not as though himselfe had soueraine power to passe them Hart. Then you grant that Leo was President of the Councell as in déede he was and head of the Bishops therein as themselues say Which sheweth that they counted the Pope their supreme head Rainoldes You will find more heads then the Popes shoulders will be content to beare if you make such reasons First the Bishop of Corduba For Hosius was President of the Councell of Nice nor of Nice onely but also of Sardica and of many others Next the Bishop of Antioche or whosoeuer he were that had the roome in the Councell of Constantinople For the Pope had it not Thirdly the Bishop of Alexandria Hart. Nay Cyrill who had it in the third general Councel was Deputie therein to Pope Caelestinus as Euagrius writeth Rainoldes Caelestinus ioyned his autoritie to Cyrils But Cyrill was President as wel as Caelestinus in more mens iudgement then Euagrius Howbeit if he were not yet Alexandria will haue a head still For Dioscorus was President in the next of Ephesus neither he alone but also the Bishops of Ierusalem and Caesarea Wherefore if the Presidentship of a generall Councell do make a supreme head then Corauba in Spaine Alexandria in Egypt Ierusalem in Iewrie and other cities of the East may claime the supreme headship as well as Rome in Italie The Pope will be loth to haue so many partners But to deliuer him from that feare or rather the Church from his tyrannie and the truth from your sophisme there is a distinction in Cardinall Turrecremata which is worth the noting vpon this very point The PresideÌtship of Councels he sayth is two-folde one of honour an other of power Presidentship of honor is to haue preemineÌce in place to propose things to direct the actions to giue definitiue sentence according to the voices and iudgement of the Councell Presidentship of power is to haue the right not onely of directing but of ruling their doings also and to conclude of matters after his owne iudgement though the greater part of the Councell like it not yea though no part like it Now the Popes supremacie chalengeth this Presidentship of power in Councels as though he alone were soueâaine iudge there which appéereth by his practise in the Councell of Vienna and by the Cardinals doctrine with the chiefest Papists But that which the general Councell of Chalcedon gaue vnto Leo in naming him their head was the Presidentship of honour as himself shewed in his Legates and Deputies who vsed all the Bishops as their fellow-iudges and concluded nothing but what they agréed of Wherefore the Presidentship which they gaue to Leo was no Papall soueraintie neither did they acknowledge him in that particular much lesse the Pope in generall to be their supreme head Hart. The Fathers did in general acknowledge the Pope and taught vs to acknowledge him our vniuersall Patriarke and Bishop of the Catholike Church nay to vse yet more the wordes of the most ancient Fathers our Prince the head of al Churches the top and the chiefe of the Apostolike company or as Epiphanius speaketh the chiefest the teacher of the whole world the ruler of the house of God an other father of the houshold and the first begotten whose seate as the most excellent Diuine S. Austin sayth hath the preeminence of a higher roome in the pastorall watch-tower which is common to all Bishops And will any man desire greater proofes of the Popes supremacie Rainoldes If any man doe he must take the paines to séeke them somewhere else Sure he is not like to finde them in your Stapleton For these are the chiefest of all in his treasurie Which therefore he culled out and sent them for a present to Gregorie the thirtéenth to shew what good wordes they giue of his Holinesse for his liberalitie toward the English Seminaries But he presenteth him with one title more which you haue omitted and yet doth it aduance him aboue all the rest Hart. None of the titles which the Fathers giue him Belike you meane that of the Emperour Rainoldes No I meane that of his owne Supremum in terris Numen In déede it hath no Fathers testimonie to proue it But as in this title he playeth the notable flatterer with the Pope so in the rest the notable sophister with you For the titles of our Prince the toppe the cheefe and chiefest of the Apostolike companie the teacher of the whole world an other father of the houshold and the first begotten are giuen by Optatus Chrysostome Epiphanius and a bastard Austin to Peter not to the Pope Stapleton alleaging them sayth that he vseth the wordes of the Fathers That is cunningly spoken For it is true he vseth their wordes though not their meaning As for the title of vniuersall Patriarke the Councell of Chalcedon which he quoteth for it gaue it not to the Pope neither Hart. No did not Theodore and certaine others there giue it to Pope Leo. Rainoldes A few poore suiters in their supplications to him and the Councell did séeke his fauour with it But neither the Councell nor any one Bishop of the Councell
hath ether mo Bishops or as many as al other nations haue For euery baggage-towne hath a Bishop there And these buggage-Bishops of whom there were more at the Councell of Trent then of all other nations did allow that doctrine Though neyther they perhaps allowed it in hart but were induced by Papall meanes to yéeld vnto it For the answere of Vargas touching the Popes supremacie made at Rome and published for instruction of the Councell assembled then at Trent doth shew that there was some sticking at the matter And your stories note that the Pope is fowly afraide of general Councels leaft they should hurt his State and commeth like a beare to the stake as they say when he is drawne to summon them What a doo was made before he could be brought to grant that the Councell of Trent should goe forward And while the Councell lasted he kept good rule at Rome but brake loose wheÌ it was ended Besides it being ended twentie yeares ago there hath bene none since nether I beléeue is like to be in hast Where yet there should be one euery ten yeres by their own decrée All euident tokens that the Pope himselfe doth thinke that Bishops vnder him like not his supremacie and would cut it shorter if they might haue power and autoritie to do it Which if they would do though being sworne to maintaine it yea and to maintaine the reseruations the prouisions other excesses of it is it not manifest that they disallow it or detest it rather Hart. Our ancestours allowed it euer since the time that by S. Gregories meanes they were first conuerted to the fayth of Christ till King Harries dayes when heresie did roote it out Rainoldes Our ancestours had a reuerent opinion of the Pope long after S. Gregorie for S. Gregories sake and honoured him aboue all Bishops But when he began to reach out the pawes of his supremacie ouer theÌ in giuing Church-liuings and handling Church-causes and executing Church-censures they were so farre froÌ liking it that they made lawes against it two hundred yeres ago Euen in Queene Maries time when they restored that stoompe of his vsurped power which they had rooted out vnder King Henrie the eigth they prouided that hée should haue no more but that stoompe kept the former lawes in force against him still Wherefore though our auncestours gaue him great preeminence of honour some of power too yet the most they gaue him was but a Venice-Dukedome his Monarchie they neuer allowed to this day Which may bée sayd likewise of other Christian Churches that honoured him on like occcasioÌ as our neighbours of Fraunce Germanie For ech of them shewed their mislike and hatred of the Popes supremacie by supplications complaints offered to their Princes Yea Fraunce made lawes against it which might haue continued had not the Gentiles raged broken the bands a sunder And these of whose iudgements I haue spoken hitherto are such as your selues doe holde for Catholike Christians The rest Christians also though you cal them heretikes and schismatikes yet Christians the Churches of Greece and Asia in the East in the North of Moscouie in the South of Aethiopia in the West of Boheme Prouince Piemont heretofore the reformed Churches that are at this day in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie Flaunders Suitzerland and so foorth throughout Europe set lesse by the Pope then the former did That I might say iustly that except the crew of the Italian factioÌ wherein I comprehend the Iesuites and their complices men Italianate al Christian Churches haue condemned the Popes supremacie do till this day Wherefore if the matter were to be tried by the will of men so many thousandes of them Pastours and Doctours Synodes and CouÌcels Uniuersities and Churches through all ages in all countries of al sorts and states might suffice to put the Pope from his supremacie At least they might make you to blush M. Hart who haue sayd in writing that all men did grant it him without resistance it was neuer denied him But sith it must be tried by the word of God and it is not writen in the booke of life I conclude that it is not a citizen of Ierusalem but a child of Babylon which they shall be blessed who dash against the stones And thus haue I shewed that the former point on which you refuse to communicate with vs in prayers and religion ought to bring you rather to vs then draw you from vs. It remaineth now that we sift the later of the faith professed in the Church of England Which if it be found to be the Catholike faith as in truth it will then is there no cause but you must néedes yéeld that we may go together into the house of the Lord. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiects in things spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it HART Nay first why doe you take the supremacie from the Pope and giue it to the Prince who is lesse capable of it Rainoldes The supremacie which we take from the Pope M. Hart we giue to no mortall creature Prince nor other But the Pope hauing seazed on part of Christs right part of Princes part of Bishops part of peoples Churches as the chough in Aesope did trick vp himselfe with the feathers of other birdes the feather which the Romish chough had of our Princes we haue taken from him and geuen it to her Maiestie to whom it belonged according to the lesson of our heauenly Master Geue to Caesar the thinges which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods Hart. It is not Caesars right to be the supreme gouernour of all his dominions in things spirituall and temporall But this is the supremacie which you giue our soueraine Lady Quéene Elisabeth Therfore you giue the Prince more theÌ iâ the Princes Rainoldes To haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions is to be supreme gouernour of all his dominions in thinges spirituall and temporall But it is Caesars right to haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions Therefore that is the Princes which we giue the Prince Hart. The Prince hath preeminence ouer al rulers within his owne dominions in gouernment of matters touching man not God For nether he nor any of the rulers vnder him may deale in them both Rainoldes They may For the ciuil magistrate is ordeined to punish them that doe euill and praise them that doe well But the euill to be punished and the good to be praised compriseth all duties not only towardes man but towards
Gods elect and chosen He answereth that the militant Church which is mentioned in the scriptures too containeth neither all the elect nor them onely And by this answere he saith he hath confuted the errour and heresie of the Hussites But therein he dealeth like them of whom the prouerbe is I asked for hookes they say they haue no mattokes But to returne to my purpose I haue thought good to publish my Conclusions euen in the same sort as they were set downe in verses and opened with suppositions according to the order of publike disputations of our Uniuersitie the rather for this cause that straungers might perceiue the kinde of our disputations which and all things els of our Uniuersitie are so debased by Bristow as if wisedom had béene borne with them alone and should dye with them Now these six Conclusions containe the chiefe fountaines and as it were the very foundations of the controuersies which we haue with the Church of Rome That the light thereof will be some helpe I trust to such as are not wilfully blinde to scatter Bristowes mistes and all the mistie cauils of Bristowes mates and complices For where it is certaine by manifest proofe as the Church of Rome it selfe doth acknowledge that the whole doctrine of religion and faith which leadeth the faithfull to saluation and life by the true and right worship of God is contained in Gods word the Papists to establish their superstitions and errours that are against the scripture diuide the worde of God into scripture and traditions that what they can not finde in Gods writen worde they may cauill that is was ordered by Gods traditionarie word so to terme it An old sleight and policie of the ympes of Satan wherewith first the Scribes and Pharises of the Iewes did craftily assay to beguyle our Sauiour Christ as the Euangelistes haue writen afterwarde the heretikes Tatian Valentinus Marcion and their felowes assayed in like sort to beguyle Christians as Ierom and Irenaeus shew And these are the parents of that corrupt opinion concerning traditions which are called Apostolike as by olde heretikes so by new The Roman Church embraceth the opinion as her owne childe litle considering that it is a bastard not conceyued by Christ but got by theft from old heretikes Unlesse perhaps she had it rather by adoption from Marcus Antonius who when the Senate had ratified the actes of Caesar he added to Caesars acts what he listed and would haue it to stand as sure as if Caesar him selfe had enacted it But that the opinion it selfe is a bastard whosoeuer begot it an heretike or an Heathen and therefore to be shut out of the Lordes assemblie which bastardes are forbidden to enter into my first Conclusion sheweth wherein I haue declared that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation Now the Papists being cast downe from this bulwarke retyre vnto the Church and say thereof it can not erre that although their traditions that is their errours did not spring from Christ yet can they haue no faute because the Church doth hold them Herodotus reporteth that Cambyses king of Persia burning with wicked loue of his owne sister asked the Persian iudges whether hee might mary her by the law of the realme Whereto they made answere after consultation that they found no law which permitteth a brother to mary his sister but an other law they had found yet which permitteth the king of Persians to do what he list The Persian iudges offended if they fained this law the Persians if they made it But vpon that answere Cambyses did ioyne him self incesâuously in mariage with his sister The Heathens haue reproued this fact of his as wicked and is not the Papists âact most like vnto it The Roman Church the Quéene of Baâylon hath burned with a cursed desire not of her brother as Cambyses of his sister but of idols superstitions The aduise of Bishops the Roman iudges hath béene asked whether she might mary superstitions and idols by the law of Christ. The Bishops haue caused the scriptures to be serched and they finde no law whereby the worship of idols and superstitions is permitted but an other law they haue found yet which prouideth that the Church can not erre in decreeing any thing The Roman iudges offended who fained this law the Romanists who allow it But vpon this sentence their Church pretendeth mariage committeth adulterie with superstitions and idols in most abominable sort Yet Bristow layeth it in the foundation of his house and maketh mention of it as if it were the law of Austin yea of Christ but impudently and fasly that it may well appéere he neither knew what Christ said nor what Austin meant Wherefore to ouerthrow the ruinous walles both of the house and the foundation I haue set the second Conclusion against it which proueth manifestly that the militant Church may erre not in maners only but in doctrine too And that being settled doth séeme withall to settle strengthen the third wherein it is auouched that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the Church Truly I should maruaile that it could euer come into the minde of any man to thinke otherwise had not S. Paul foretold that the man of sinne the sonne of perdition should sit in the temple of God exalt him self aboue God Which prophecie hath béene fulfilled in their eyes who haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ they haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ who haue séene the Church aduanced aboue the scripture For what is detracted from the scripture the worde of Christ that is in déede detracted from Christ the autour of the word And that which in shew is yéelded to the Church is attributed in truth to the Pope of Rome Both these thinges are euident by Albertus Pighius whose sayinges concerning the scripture and the Church although they bee very insolent and vngodly yet there were amongst them who liued before Pighius euen of the chiefetaines of the Romish Church as namely the Fathers of the Councell of Constance and Cardinall Cusanus who spake more insolently They who liued since haue kept the sense and substance of Cusanus and Pighius in that they geue a Princely or rather a tyrannicall autoritie to the Church for expounding the scripture as Cardinall Hosius dooth But they haue put fresh colours on it and qualified as it were the rigour of the spéeches in so much that Bristow treading the steppes of Hosius requyreth not greater autoritie for the Church but séemeth wel content to make it equall with the scripture Howbeit hee speaketh so I know not how that I dare not auouch he is of that mind For though he doo chalenge like obedience to them both like truth like priuilege to be frée from errour yet in that hée addeth
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâway and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaââe by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâs which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌmunion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
Christ most holy Finally sith God hath called the holy church not out of this or that countrey not out of this or that people but out of all nations spred through the whole world for that cause the church is intitled Catholike that is vniuersall not Iewish not Roman not English not of one people or prouince but vniuersall and Catholike coÌpacted as it were into one body out of all sorts of estates sexes ages nations Iewes Heathens Greeks Barbarians bond and free men and wemen old and young rich and poore For both the old Church before the birth of Christ which saw the day of Christ to come and was saued did gather children of God vnto her selfe at first out of any people afterward when the grace of God shined chiefly among the people of Israel she did ioyne conuertes to Israel out of the rest and much more the new Church called since Christ was borne hath enlarged her tabernacle as Esay the Prophet speaketh to all nations beginning at Ierusalem Iudaea Samaria and going forward thence euen to the vttermost endes of the earth For God hath not called the circumcised Iewes alone to be his Church as the time was when the Apostles thought through a litle ouersight the Iewes in our dayes haue too presumptuously wéened but Christ being crucified hath broken the stoppe of the partition-wall and is become the chiefe stone of the corner on which a dooble wall ariseth and as Dauid prophecied the Egyptian the Babylonian the Tyrian the Aethiopian the Philistine are borne in Sion and as the Elders in whom is represented the company of the faithfull doo sing vnto Christ Thou hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tounge and people and nation and hast made vs kings and priests to our God we shall raigne vpon the earth Wherefore sith the church which the holy scriptures doo commend vnto vs betokeneth the company and assembly of the faithfull whom God hath chosen Christ hath sanctified and called out of all nations to the inheritance of his owne kingdome the holy Ghost who spake by the Prophets and Apostles doth warrantise me to resolue on my Conclusion that the holy catholike church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods electâand chosen You maruell perhaps why I propose this article of the ChristiaÌ faith to be discussed by disputation as though either any man stood in dout of it or things not douted of were to be handled as doutfull But if you consider that the true meaning therof which I haue opened most agréeable to the scripture most comfortable to the faithfull is condemned and accursed by the standerd-bearers of the church of Rome you will cease to maruell For in the Councell of Constance in which they condemned Iohn Husse for an heretike they condemned these two sayings as hereticall to be burned with him that there is one holy vniuersall Church which is the whole company of them that are predestinate and that the Church as it is takeÌ in this sense for the company of them that are predestinate is the article of our faith Which sayings of his to be counted vngodly it séemed strange to me and so much the more because I perceiued that the Fathers whose words the Papistes will séeme to make great account of when they serue their purpose did vse the same squire to measure out the Catholike church by For Clemens Alexandrinus dooth expresly call it the company of the elect into which are gathered the faithfull and iust whom God did predestinate before the creation of the world Likewise Ambrose hauing said that the honour of God the father is in Christ and in the church defineth the church to be a people which God hath vouchsafed to adopt to him selfe Furthermore Gregorie the Bishop of Rome affirmeth that all the elect are contained within the compasse and circuite of the church all the reprobate are without it And Bernard declaring the church to be the company of all the elect which company was predestinate before the world began doth touch it as a mysterie which he had learned of Paul and saith that he will boldly vtter it As for Austin a man of sharpest iudgement of them all he neither acknowledgeth any city of God but this elect church in his most lerned worke touching the citie of God and in another touching the catechizing of the vnskilfull he saith that all the holy and sanctified men which are which haue been which shal be are citizens of this heauenly Ierusalem and in another touching baptisme against the Donatists against whom he vrgeth the Catholike church most he confesseth that those things in the song of songs the garden inclosed the fountaine sealed vp the lilie the sister the spouse of Iesus Christ are meant of the holy and righteous alone who are Iewes inwardly by circumcision of the hart of which holy men the number is certaine praedestinate before the foundation of the world Wherefore if the Prelates of the Romish Church had had any reuerence I say not of the scriptuâes ouer which they play the Lordes as they list but of the Fathers of whom as of orphans they beare men in hand that they haue vndertooke the wardship they would neuer haue wounded or rather burnt in Husses person Clemens Alexandrinus Ambrose Gregorie Bernard and Austin who taught the same point that is condemned in Husse namely that the holy vniuersall Church is the whole company of the elect of God But it is I sée an vndouted truth which a learned man liking the Popes religion but not the Popes presumption hath set downe in writing that amongst the Popes and men like to Popes it is a sure principle If wrong he to be doon it is to be doon when thou maist get a kingdome by it For they wrest the holy catholike Church taught vs in the Creede from the right meaning to the intent they may be kings hoyse vp the sayles of their owne ambition in as much as they apply it like vnskilfull men if they doo it ignorantly impious if wittingly they apply it I say not to the Catholike Church but to the militant nor to that as it is choseÌ but as it is visible mingled with hypocrites and vngodly persons The cause why they do so is that all Christians by reason they beleeue the holy Catholike Church may be induced to thinke that the visible Church must be held for Catholike and a visible monarchie must be in the visible Church and the Pope is Prince of the visible monarchie and all Christians must be subiect to him as Prince For this to be the marke whereat the Popes shoote it is as cléere as the light by the verie Extrauagants as they are termed of the Canon law in that royall decrée of Boniface the eighth beginning with these wordes One holy Catholike Church Where from one
the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope who being not a voluntarie Senator as Tully iesteth at Asinius himselfe chosen by him selfe but a voluntary tyrant doth take vpon him selfe the rule of the whole church Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to doth cast off the foly of Paul and of Peter and neither will him selfe nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers Who autoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world as if that all Princes held their right of him Who chalengeth the two swordes as he termeth them the spirituall and temporall and that by the gospell because it was saide for sooth by the Apostles Beholde herâ are two swordes Who hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates and reserued it in part to him selfe hath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe Cardinals felowes of kinges gardians of Princes Protectors of nations a Senate meete for such a âarquin Who exacteth an oth of Emperours of Bishops of Christian common wealthes Uniuersities and Churches to be obedient vnto him Who admitteth I say not Cornelius the Centurion which Peter yet would neuer haue doon but the Lordes of Centurions euen Kinges and Keisars Emperours and Empresses to kisse his blessed feete Finally who being in Princely attire and accompanied with Princely traine serued not by common but by noble men wearing not a single but a triplâ Crowne called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope by discréete Doctors most good in grace most great in power as full of riotous pompe and pride as euer were the Persian kings z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones âhis gorgeous miter dight With iewels rare with glistring gold with Pyropus bright O very Troian truls not Troians hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ appointed in noble order as an army set in aray and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a visisible monarchie and kingdome of the Romans And that the old saying might be fulfilled new Lordes new lawes such lippes such lettise as one said of an asse that was eating thistles this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in as the shoomaker did whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law then mine Francis Duaren a man of great skill in both the lawes ciuill and canon and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church as it were an abridgement of the canon law allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Parisâ and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king that no man can iustây ãâã either the autor or the worke as hereticall In ãâ¦ã then of the said treatise declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts to weete Decrees and ãâã Decrees which were gathered together by Gratian ãâã epistles writen by sundry Popes he saith that in the âirât volume of Decretales conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees And hence arose that saying which is common and famous amongst our countriemen he meaneth the Frenchmen Things haue gone ill with men since tales were added to Decrees that is since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did beare sway For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie when Decrees were patched out with those tales as the world is wont to growe worse and worse So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay and backe efisoones they slide As for the other volume the sixth booke of Decretales which Boâiface the eighth added it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made the most part of them in hatred and despite of Philip the French king and for the game of the court of Rome No not the Clementines neither nor Extrauagants the last part of the Decretales are voyde of like faultes nay the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former And this is the body of the Canon-law these are the Popes statutes by the which though very vnméete for the church in Duarens iudgement yet is the church of Rome gouerned and it is so gouerned that the Decrees which are the better part haue lesse autoritie the Decretales which are woorse haue greater force in Church-causes and are more authenticall Yea the matter came to that passe that Gratian the principall autor of the Canon law would haue had the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austins But it would not âay In so much that the Papists Alfonsus and Andradius are them selues ashamed of that his either wilfull fault or ouersight The Decretales therefore remaine not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures yea aboue them in deciding Church-causes at Rome For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since he might complaine off to any Pope in our time if he were aliue the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace but the lawes of Iustinian not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no looke you to that For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled and conuerteth soules But these are not so much lawes as law-quarels and strifes subuerting iudgement Besides that the maner of dealing which is vsed in debating causes is too too abominable and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church nay it were not seemely for the common place where ciuill matters are handled He meaneth that maner which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before though it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde euen that maner of dealing which is practised in the brabbles and cauils of aduocates
fitter to subuert then to finde the trueth in the pleas of lawiers who bring in sleights of falshode and fraud against innocencie stop vp the waies of iudgement beate down the simplicitie of trueth in dilatory shifts and other such instruments of making gaine by suites which came from the lawes but from the lawes of Iustinian as Bernard saith not of the Lord. These are the lawes then which the Pope vseth and vseth to what end which is the last point He vseth them not to furder the saluation of Gods people but to satisfie if yet a horseleach might be satisfyed his owne and his Courtiers vnsatiable couetousnesse ambition and lust For what hath the outragious tyranny of the beast respected els but that in the Church-offices Church-censures and Church-causes Why hath he withdrawen suites from other places to the Court of Rome Why hath he reserued cases to him selfe Why hath he dispensed with lawes at his pleasure why hath he made and vnmade them He hath taken into his own hands the elections of Bishops from them whom they belonged to The Christian ministers magistrates and people he hath robbed and spoyled of their due and right He hath committed the féeding and guiding of the flock of Christ to brute and beastly creatures He hath let and set the charge or the commoditie rather of churches as he would himselfe and to whom he would by presentations preuentions prouisions reseruations translatioÌs permutations aduousons commendaes He hath ordeined Pastors without a roome of Pastorship Ministers without a functioÌ benefices without cure sacrileges without punishment The goods of the church that is the liuing of the Pastors and maintenance of the poore he hath impaired with pensions embesilled with first fruites made away with appropriations seazed on with sundry wrongs and spent them wastfully with lustes to the common out-cries of men reprouing him for pride for riot for extortion and for simony He hath not permitted the causes of the church to be debated and decided there where they arose as equitie as reason as peace as the iudgement of Councels and Fathers would he should haue doon but he hath remoued them thence to be heard and determined at Rome what by reseruing of cases to him selfe what by fetching matters with the fishers signet what by exempting men from their Ordinaries what by allowing appeales from all coastes to the Lord Apostolike The censures of the church in excommunication ordeined to cut the wicked off as rotten members from the company of Christians he hath vsed and exercised not against the wicked of whom a sinke hath flowed of old time to Rome and ouerfloweth it still not against theeues of whom a Pope witnesseth Rome is made a denne not against murderers for whom there is a sanctuary in the very houses of Cardinals at Rome not against adulterers whose offense was punished with death by the old Romans now they are toyed with not against whoores which set themselues to open sale vnder the Pope who playeth the baude and gaineth by it not against whooremongers whom he preferreth somewhere before maried persons and leacherie before chastitie which the Canonist noteth as a woonderfull case but he hath exercised it against Emperours Princes States and nations that would not serue him at a beck against any magistrate that did but lay hands vpon a clergy-man against any Christian that denied his parish-priest a little tithe against whole assemblies and companies of the faithfull who worshipped as Paul the God of their fathers after that way which Papistes call heresie beleuing all things which are writen in the law and the Prophets Whom he with most vilanous cruelty and treachery as if they had béen shéepe appointed to the slaughter hath ridde away by torments by fire by sword not himselfe for he came not into the iudgement hall least he should be defiled but he hath deliuered them to Pilate to be crucified and when the streames of water did flow with blood at Paris old men and maidens and babes being murdered without all respect of sex or age or state he sang a song of ioy for the French mariage and celebrated with bonfyres and processions at Rome a most outragious act of more then Scythian barbarousnes What should I recken vp his tyrannical lawes wherewith he hath oppressed the Church intolerably Of single life imposed on ministers of the word of auricular confession of the choise of meates apparell and daies of the new and strange canonizing of Saints of pilgrimages to holy land of the vowes of Moonkes and Nunnes of the state and rites of mariage of innumerable ceremonies partly vnfruitfull partly foolish partly impious whereof some sprang from heathens some from the Iewes and some from heretikes What should I say of his wicked dispensations if yet they deserue the name of dispensations and not as Bernard rather doth call them dissipations wherwith there is nothing so holy and religious which he hath not polluted nothing so profane which he hath not permitted that a brother may mary his own brothers wife an vncle his sisters daughter that Church-offices and liuings may be geuen to boyes to Simoniacall marchantes to vnlerned persons and such as are vnfitte for them that one man may haue a pluralitie of benefices that he who hath the benefice néede not attend the office the steward not prouide meate for Gods houshold the seruant and minister not doo the worke of God the angel and messenger not shew the wil of God the shepheard and pastour not féede the flock committed to him that subiects may be discharged of their oth and fealtie licensed to withdraw allegiance from their Prince yea take armes against him yea lay violent hands on the anointed of the Lord that promise may be broken with God and with men that abominations most horrible may be committed that all things diuine and humane may be peruerted right and wrong heauen and earth lawfull and vnlawfull may be confounded together And can it be douted but that this so monstrous so pestilent so misshapen foulnesse and corruption of lawes and of discipline was instituted and inducted by this king of Rome not to set forward the saluation of the Church but to fill his gréedy appetite of gold and lust of dominion Doo not his own Fryers witnesse that all things Priestes Churches altars sacraments crownes in Peters fold Fire incense praiers heauen and God are set out to be sold Doo not his Courtiers allow of their iudgement who say that the pompe of the church would be abated which he sought to increase with anoyance of religion Doo not q Cardinals acknowledge that Christians are wyped of their goods and substance by first
Beth-auen the hie places of Auen are the sinne of Israel Therefore go ye not vp to Beth-auen sayth the Lord. Thus we are expresly commaunded by God to depart and separate our selues from those Churches wherein the right wayes either of his knowledge or of his worship are peruerted Much more from those Churches wherein they are peruerted both But they are both peruerted in the Church of Rome most notoriously as I haue declared It remaineth then that the reformed Churches haue seuered themselues from the Church of Rome most lawfully iustly And therefore our English Papists and the Louanists deale shall I say of ignoraunce or of malice but of whether soeuer they deale very lâwdâly who to make vs odious for seuering our selues from the Church of Rome as if we had played the schismatikes therein doe report of vs that we rent our selues from the Catholike Church as the Donatistes did Truly or falsly let the faithful iudge Chiefly sith it is manifest that the Donatists found not any fault with Catholikes either for the seruice wherewith they worshipped God or for the doctrine of God which they preached but wée haue conuicted the Romanists of impietie both for their idolatrous prophaning of his seruice and for their vngodly corrupting of his doctrine and these men who blame vs doe themselues teach that no man ought to ioyne and communicate with that Church whose seruice is idolatrous whose doctrine is vngodly in so much that the Louanists reproue that worthily the Catholike Bishops of Afrike yea S. Austin too for saying that the Prophets Elias and Elisaeus resorted to the Church and seruice of the Israelites when it was stayned with idolaâtrie and an English Papist condemneth though vniustly them who heare our sermons because it is horrible sinne to giue patient hearing to blasphemies such as he sayth we preach Wherefore if the Romish doctours themselues should sit in iudgement vpon vs for triall of the schisme and Donatisme so to terme it whereof they indite vs no doubt vnlesse their mindes were ouercast in like sort as were the eyes of Elymas they would acquite vs of it and pronounce of Christians as Pilate did of Christ I finde no fault in him For what haue we done in forsaking their synagogue that may deserue the check of a seuere Censour much lesse the condemnation of an indifferent iudge Saue in this perhaps that as mad Fimbria complained of Scaeuola we receaued not the whole weapoÌ into our body The Ministers of Christ were bound to preach the word of God they preached it To reproue the peoples sinnes they reproued theÌ To suffer afflictions eueÌ vnto the shedding of their blood they suffered The people of Christ were bound to heare the pastours voice they heard it To worship God serue him only they did it To professe their faith before men they professed it If against the will of Princes and Magistrates as it fell out in Fraunce they ought to obey rather God then men as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel If by the commandement of Princes and Magistrates which befell to England through Gods most gratious goodnesse and we beséech him it may for euer they were to obey their Princes in the Lord as the Priests and Prophets and people of the Iewes did obey Iosias Wherefore séeing all the reformed Churches not to rehearse them in particular following the same rule which England did Fraunce haue seuered themselues from the church of Rome in such sort as they ought by the law of God they are not seditious because they haue done but they were sacrilegious vnlesse they had done so nether haue we dealt as schismatikes in forsaking but others deale as heretikes in following the whoore whose hearts I would to God that might pearce into which our Sauiour sayth to his touching Babylon Go out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that ye receue not of her plagues And thus haue I declared to you reuerend Syr my iudgemeÌt of the Conclusions which you proposed In opening whereof although I haue bene longer partly being moued with the weightinesse of the pointes and partly presuming of the pacience of the hearers then in this place is vsuall yet haue I purposely omitted many things which aduersaries may obiect because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it selfe more conueniently Psal. 51.18 Be fauourable O God to Sion for thy good pleasure build the walles of Ierusalem Iohn Rainoldes to the Christian Reader IT is now fiue yeares almost gentle reader since being occasioned by order of our Vniuersitie to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation I was moued to make them coÌmon vnto many that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reape some fruite of them Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall that if any fault were found he might amend it before they were deliuered to such as they were drawen for the like haue I done with mine though not like his by keping theÌ in Latin at home as it were that if any thing were iustly blamed in them it might be corrected before I sent them abroad to English men In the which respect though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry frendes of whom some had translated them requesting that I would translate them my selfe or suffer theirs to be printed yet I resisted it hope they tooke it in good part But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart I haue coÌdescended vnto their request to do them into English publish them withall The rather because I haue proued herein that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholike faith The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart auouched So that seeing he brake off conference thereon and would not put the faith of his church to that triall to which he had put the Pope the head of it the godly who will wish that also had bene handled to the confusion of all Poperie may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer as better halfe a loafe men say then no bread And I am the bolder to set it before them because Doctor Stapleton Licentiate Martin who as euill physicians to get themselues worke doo praise vnholesome baggage aboue holesome foode haue discoÌmended it Chiefly sith their dealing therein hath bene such that they haue shewed greater stomake theÌ wisedome as physicians of no value For of foure pointes that I find reproued by the former of them in the last editioÌ of his doctrinall principles one is that I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholike after a new sort vnskilfully and fondly The distinction therof I grounded on the scripture fond and new it may be to others not
to vs. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stoode Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it I will beare with him as in the rest of his tauntes also Loosers must haue their wordes An other point he carpeth at is mine exposition of holy catholike church Which I hauing proued by the Papistes themselues that it must needes signifie the company of the chosen alone not mixt with wicked ones because by their catechisme it is the body of Christ all the body of Christ is quickned by his spirit which the wicked are not he replieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickned by his spirite because some partes of it are so not all the body An aunswere somewhat straunge considering that the scripture which I had alleaged saith that al the body of Christ is quickned so As for that he noteth of the word Catholike that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sorte Philip Mornayes excellent giftes and fruitfull labors I reuerence and loue And both of vs hauing aymed at the trueth whether hath come neerer it let the Prophets iudge But if among Prophets in the church of Christ somewhat be reueiled to one that is not to an other this iustifieth not them who say they are Iewes are not but are the Synagogue of Satan Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion that the holy Catholike church which we beleue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen For touching that he addeth that he hath disproued it by shewing that the church is distinguished from hereticall assemblies by the name of Catholike he hath disproued it as soundly therby as if he should say that the Catholike epistles in the new Testament were not so called as generall writen to no certaine persons because that other writings are named catholike also to distinguish them from hereticall The third point he taketh vpon him to confute is an argument that I made to proue my third Conclusion All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of trueth some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour But he that telleth the trueth alwayes is more to be credited theÌ he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more theÌ is the Church And to this argumeÌt saith he I answere briefly that no words of the Church are the words of error that is that no erroneus thing is euer taught defined or approued by the Church in her Bishops Pastors teaching vniformly in the decrees of Councels chiefly of generall Councels in that which the Fathers teach with one consent in her head the Pope defining deliuering any thing publikely finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth though âeuerally some Bishops may priuately erre in teaching and one or moe Fathers may write some vntrue thing or be in some erâor and somewhat euen in CouÌcels without the decree it self may be said or reasoned inconueniently and to conclude the Pope may be ouerseene priuately in somewhat But this must be certes imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an aunswere vnto my argument then can I tell him a very briefe way to aunswere my Conclusions all with one word How By graunting them all to be true For though it were so that nether Bishops teaching vniformely might erre nor Fathers consenting nor Councels in decrees nor the Pope in publike and definitiue sentence which I both there else where haue shewed to be otherwise but if it were so yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers and Councels and the Pope himselfe may erre as he confesseth in this or that point and this or that maner he graunteth that which I said that some wordes of the Church are the wordes of errour But those wordes must certes saith he be imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Now certes M Doctor is a mery maÌ who can shift an argument off with such a iest As though the Church her selfe consisted not of men and therefore must needes offend so through frailtie the men offending so The fourth and last point wherewith he findeth fault is that amongst the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike Church I bring this that touching expounding of the Scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers coÌsenting all in one Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers yea that I affirme that it is a marke and token of a false Church to admitte the ioint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture he dooth me great wrong For though by folowing too much breuitie in Latin I fell into obscuritie and said not so plainly that which I would and should as in the English now I haue yet that which I said dooth cleere me of his sclaunder as D. Fulke hath shewed whom I can better thanke for his defending of me then deserue the praise that he hath geuen me therein Nay I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome that the faulte which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their iudgemeÌt in that point For I declared straight in the words ensuing that first shee autoriseth thereby her owne practise as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture though contrarie to it selfe next she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolemen wil haue theÌ taken for waters of life lastly when some Fathers gainsay her she reiecteth them because they all consent not and admitteth them who doo make for her as hauing hit the mark Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one The former two import that I condemne the frensie of the Church of Rome mainteining her Dunses and deedes against the Fathers But the serpentes assembled in the Councell of Trent haue set downe that I spake of touching the expounding of the scripture so suttilly that a simple man would thinke they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture onely as the Fathers geue all with one consent Whereas in very trueth they do nothing lesse they disallow them rather For whether by the Fathers consenting all in one they meane the Fathers all simply none excepted that consent is a Phoenix and neuer will be found or whether they meane a good number of them as M. Hart expoundeth it they dissent froÌ senses agreed on by that number For example the scripture saith There shal be one flock one Pastour The Fathers Austin Chrysostome Cyrill Ierome Gregorie expounde this of Christ. The church of Romes
mouth expoundeth it of the Pope The Councell then of Trent condemning all senses and meaninges of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one doth it not condemne this sense of the scripture geueÌ by the Fathers because it is against the sense of their Church Sure it bindeth not the Papistes to maintaine it Or els D. Stapleton I trust should be censured for placing the Pope in the one Pastours seate Wherefore if they who holde not the senses that the Fathers geue of the scriptures be the false Church as he teacheth vs the false Church and the Church of Rome may claime kinred And thus much of the Doctor The Licentiate foloweth him in the same steppes reprouing a speech of mine touching Cyprian Whose praise of the Romans that vnfaithfulnesse cannot haue accesse to theÌ being stretched by Sanders to proue that the Church of Rome cannot erre I hauing shewed the contrarie by scripture did adde What and was Cyprian of an other minde Pardon me ô Cyprian I would beleeue thee gladly but that beleeuing thee I should not beleeue the word of God Hereon M. Martin to aduauntage his cause first abuseth Cyprian saying that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith Which he affirmeth not But whereas the Nouatian heretikes at Carthage had made themselues there a Bishop in schisme and to get him credite with the Church of Rome had writen thither falsly that he was allowed by fiue tweÌtie Bishops Cyprian to meete with their falshood and treacherie saith that it could not finde credit with the Romans who being faithfull men would not giue eare to faithlesse lyers Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deede be deceiued by false reportes of wicked ympes for euen there he noteth they might be a while as hee did trie both then and after but to stirre them vp to beware of heretikes by praising them as wary Wherfore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith as M. Martin threapeth on him Yet because he might be supposed to haue thought it at least by a consequent for if they could not erre in that much lesse in faith therefore I contenting my selfe with a peremptorie exception against it sayd that if he thought it he must pardon me for not beleeuing him the word of God gainsaying it And this doth M. Martin reproue both for that wherevpon I spake it and for my kind of speeche That wherevpon I spake it is he sayth that euery youth among vs vpon confidence of his spirit will controll not onely one but all the Fathers consenting together if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth In which wordes by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him For I touched the credite of no more of them then the Papistes grant themselues may be touched Nor controlled I ought vpon confidence of my spirite but of the spirite of God because it was against not that which I imagined but knew to be the truth My kind of speeche he noteth for being very fine and figuratiue as I thought As I thought did M. Martin see my hart If not hee might haue kept that thought within himselfe For in truth to open it because he presseth me so farre I thought in that figure Paerdon me ô Cyprian to imitate a like kind of speeche in S. Austin Pardon me ô Paule What M. Martin thought wheÌ herevpon he matched me with vaine foolish youths himselfe hath declared But it would better haue beseemed his age to haue acknowledged rather the truth which I proued then haue reproued my kind of speech For although I be a vaine and foolish youth who spake so of Cyprian yet S. Paule was not a vaine and foolish Apostle whose doctrin I maintayned in it These are good Christian reader the faultes of my Conclusions al that are noted by Stapleton Martin as farre as I know If they or any other haue touched ought else which I haue not lighted on I will not be ashamed vpoÌ notice of it to bring it forth my selfe and answere it in iudgement For I haue bene so carefull of true and faithfull dealing as well in the Conclusions as in the Conference with M. Hart God is my record that if mine aduersaries should write a booke against me I would beare it vpoÌ my shoulder bind it as a crowne vnto me The bolder I am to coÌmend them both to thy vpright iudgement beseeching the Father of lights for his mercies sake in Iesu Christ to blesse thee with the grace of his holy spirit that thou maist grow in knowledge in faith in hope in loue and enioy the blessings prepared for the chosen who seeke and serue him Psal. 119.18 Open myne eyes O Lord that I may see wonderfull thinges out of thy law LONDON Printed by Iohn Wolfe for George Bishop 1584. a 1. Sam. 19 2â 2. King 2.5 4.8 b Reue. 1â â c Act. 6. ver 9. d ver 14. e ver 11. f ver 13. g Act. 7.2 h Act. 1.1 i Luk. 1.3 ãâã 23 1â l Ezek. 47.12 m Gen. 3.9 n Psal. 6â ââ o 1. Tiâ ââ * In the seueâth Chapter and the seuenth Diuision a Rom. 10. â b Rom. 9.3 c Rom. 10.2 d Act. 22.3 e Gal. â 1 f Rom. 10.4 g Allen in the Apologie of the English Seminariâs chapt 6. h chapt 2. i chapt 3. k chapt 1. 6. l chapt 5. m chapt 1. 5. n chapt 1. 4. * Esai 9.16 o Allen in hiâ Apologie chapt 5. p âheologiââ Miniââri ecclesiaâum ditioniâ Casimiri in Admonitione de liâro Concordââ cap. 12. q Concertat ecclesiâe Cathoâlicae in Anglia aduersus Caluin Puritan In epistola Lucae Kyrby Apologia Martyrum 1 Quamuis doctissimus illius ordinis 2 Tanto in doctiorem se esse ostendit 3 Egregium Christi Athleâam 4 Sanctum sacerdotem 5 Sacrae Theologiae Baccalau reum 6 Firmiores egisse radices in fideâ fundamentis 7 Doctrina esse solidiori 8 Ministrum synagogâe Anglicanae non vulgarem 9 Re insecta vnde venit âecessit r Allen in hiââpologie The nââration oâ tâe English ãâã in ãâã s Dan. 1. ver â t ver 4 u ver â x Allens Apoloâgiâ chapt 3. y chapt 2. z chapt 6. a Dan. 1. ver 7. 8. b ver 12. ver 4. 19. ver 3. e Guicâiardin hist. Ital. lib. 11 f lib. ââ g Allens Apologic chapt 6 h Genebrard Chronogr lib. 4. in aâpend i The narration of the English Semin in Rom. k Gen. 3.6 l Esai 19.18 m 2. Cor. 11. ver 13. n ver 22. o The âarration of the English Semin in Rome p 2. Cor. 11. ââ q Iob. 1.7 2.2 r 1. King 11.10 s Dan. 1.
Constantines victories nor other miracles wrought thereby nor practise of the faithfull in the primitiue Church doth proue that we haue doon amisse in plucking downe the signe of the crosse wherewith you enââite vs or that we are not of the same religion that they were who did set it vp For tell me what thinke you of the brasen serpent which God commanded Moses to set vp in the wildernes Was it not a figure of the passion of Christ Hart. Yes But what of that Rainoldes And there were many miracles also wrought by it For when the Iewes were stoong by the fyerie serpents they looked on the serpent of brasse and were healed Hart. If they were what then Rainoldes Yet king Ezekias a man of the same religion that Moses was did breake it in peeces and he did well in it Hart. He brake the brasen serpent in péeces I graunt but that was because the children of Israel did burne incense to it Rainoldes So haue we pluckt downe the signe of the crosse because you burne incense to it M. Hart. Hart. Nay that we do not Rainoldes It is writen in your Masse-booke that in solemne Masses the Priest hauing made obeysance to the crosse doth incense it thrise Hart. But that is not to burne incense as the Iewes did For they had a superstitions estimation of the serpent putting trust and affiance in it Rainoldes So haue you a superstitious estimation of the crosse For you thinke it a speciall defense against the diuell and by your common phrase they do blesse them selues who signe their brestes with it and you carry about you crosses made of mettall with an opinion that you are the safer thereby as superstitious women in S. Ieroms time did the wood of the crosse Hart. If any doo it of superstition as those women did we reproue them with S. Ierom. But the Iewes did worship the brasent serpent as God and we doo not the crosse so Rainoldes If any do it as those women which your crossecariers doo they doo it of superstition But how did the Iewes worship the serpent as God Hart. S. Austin saith that they did worship it as an idole which is to make a God of it And Ezekias shewed the same in effect by that he called it nechushtan that is brasen-stuffe as if he should haue saide that it had no diuine power which they by errour thought it had Rainoldes The Iewes gaue the honour of God to a creature in that they burned incense to it And therefore Ezekias did call it brasen-stuffe as if we should call your roodes wooden-stuffe your Agnus-deis waxen stuffe your crucifixes and crosses made of copper copper-stuffe because you impart the honour of God to them by putting trust and hope in them And if the couetous man be called an idolater because he maketh mony his God not as though he thought the coyne to be God but because he trusteth to liue and prosper by it which confidence and hope he should repose in God onely then worship you the signe of the crosse as an idole because you trust to bee saued by it as in your Church-seruice you professe notoriously and so your selues confesse you worship it as God Wherefore if Ezekias be praised by God for breaking in peeces the serpent of brasse because the children of Israel did burne incense to it we who haue remoued the signe of the crosse because you put the hope of saluation in it may content our selues to bee dispraysed by men But if you say therefore that we be against the ancient Fathers in religion because we plucke downe that which they did set vp take héede least your speech doo touch the holy Ghost who saith that Ezekias did keepe Gods commandements which he commanded Moses and yet withall saith that he brake in peeces the serpent of brasse which Moses had made And if you will not learne this lesson of me yet learne it of the Canon law that if our predecessours haue done some thinges which at that time might bee without faute and afterwarde be turned to errour superstition we are taught by Ezekias breaking the brasen serpent that the posteritie may destroy them without any delay and with great autoritie Hart. The diuine worship with the which we honour the image of the crosse is proued by S. Thomas to be due thereto For the honour of an image is referred to that which the image resembleth and the motion of our minde is the same to the image of a thing as an image and to the thing it selfe Wherefore sith the crosse doth represent Christ who died vpon a crosse and Christ is to bee worshipped with diuine honour it foloweth that the crosse is to bee worshipped so too Yet you and your men are still obiecting to vs our honouring of the crosse as though we committed idolatry therein In good sooth Maisters ye are too young to controll the Church of Rome in her dooings Rainoldes So M. Harding telleth vs of the citie of Rome when we controll her stewes And in deede you haue almost as much reason to speake for the maintenance of this spirituall whooredome which you commit with the crosse as he for the carnal which they commit with Courtisans Now wel had it fared with the brasen serpent if Thomas had béene schoolemaister to king Ezekias For he would haue taught him that sith the brasen serpent did represent Christ and Christ was to be worshipped with diuine honour therefore the brasen serpent was to bee worshipped so too You are angrie when wee say that you worship the Pope as God Me thinkes you should graunt it Sure you might defend it by this Schoole-diuinitie For though he beare one way the image of the beast yet in that he is a man hee is an image of God whom he resembleth more liuely then any crosse or crucifix doth represent Christ. But to returne to the mysticall blessings of the Masse which you went about to fetch by S. Austin from the Apostolike tradition you sée that neither they nor incense nor lightes nor vestiments nor the rest of that suite of ceremonies are mentioned at all much lesse auouched to be Apostolike in that of S. Austin which your Iesuite groundeth on Hart. I know that S. Austin doth intreate rather of the substance of the Masse then of the ceremonies in that place But in the other which I cited he doth intreate of customes and so that he proueth the ceremonies of the Masse to haue come from the Apostles For of the thinges saith he which we keepe by tradition it is to bee thought that such as are obserued through the whole world were either ordeined by the Apostles them selues or by generall Councels Wherefore sith the ceremonies of incense lightes vestiments and other of the like sorte were not ordeined by generall Councels it followeth by S. Austin