so by consequent of the Churches of Asia notwithstanding all he said before of their spirituall Pastors and Superintendents shall I now tell you what I thinke verily if this Tradition of the feast of Easter and that other of the age of Christ so credibly reported so confidently auouched deliuered ouer to so few hands and so short a succession were found hollow and false at the heart in the very nexte age that followed the Apostles and at length as the receiued opinion is condemned for heresie I know not how a man should frame himselfe to beleeue such Traditions to be sound and vndefiled which haue no such pregnant euidence and haue runne through the hands of so many pitchmongers as haue liued successiuely so many hundred yeeres after the death of Victor and Irenaeus Yea but saith he this was not vniuersally receiued and obserued but onely of those Churches in Asia and therefore we are not bound by S. Austines rule to receiue it as a Tradition from the Apostles well then succession from hand to hand and Bishop to Bishop in particular Churches is not sufficient to make a Tradition apostolicall let him hold that without partialitie as well in Italy as in Asia Howbeit Polycrates and those worthy Bishops and Martyrs of Asia may not be ruled by S. Austines rule and if that Epistle of Polycrates subscribed Synodically by so great a multitude of Bishops may be credited this Tradition cannot chuse but be Apostolicall and so vniuersall in nature though particular in practise but what shall wee doe on the other side with the Tradition of the West Church which was further fetched then the other by so many winters and sommers as S. Iohn liued after Peter and Paul that is to say thirtie winters at the least and so many sommers wherein this westerne Tradition might well bee either Sunne-burnt or weather beaten shall we follow S. Austines rule here too and so beleeue neither the one nor the other to be Apostolicall ware that friend Papist if ye meane to goe for a good Catholicke yet it is cleare that the Tradition of the west Church was not vniuersally receiued no more then the other of the East before the Nicene Councell therefore either S. Austines rule was then no rule or else no Christian for the space of 300. yeeres was bound to beleeue that the one was left by S. Peter and S. Paul no more then the other by S. Philip and S. Iohn nay further we reade not that any Canon was made contra Quartadecimanos in the Nicene Councell whereby Epiphanius or any other father should score them vp for heretickes but onely that it was thought meete the Tessaredecatites beeing few Euseb in vita Constant. lib. 3 cap 13. 17. Socr. lib. 5. cap. 20. 21. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 18. 19. Can. 8. Apost should yeelde to the greater number now whether they yeelded or yeelded not we haue no sure euidence onely we may strongly coniecture they did not yeeld by that we reade of this matter in Socrates and Sozomen as for that peremptory magisterial Canon which casteth euery Bishop Presbyter and Deacon out of the Church if he celebrate his Easter ante vernum aequinoctium cum Iudaeis it is not knowne where or when or by whom or what it was enacted and so consequently where or when or by whom or what it should be obeyed Wherefore I for my part cannot disallow the resolution of Socrates that the feast of Easter was neuer imposed vpon the Church by the Apostles but brought to obseruation by the free choise and liking of Christian nations and so continued by long custome till by the brawling and immoderatenesse of some wayward men the Church was constrayned to worke out her owne peace by vniformitie Now to Augustines rule beside a number of instances which may be brought against it as namely the dignitie of Alexandria ouer Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis and the dignitie of Rome ouer the West prouinces which the Councell of Nice groundeth neither vpon Scripture Apostle Can. 6. Ierom ad Euagr in epist ad Tot. Aug. epist 19. nor Councell but old custome as also the appropriating of the name Bishop to the chiefe Ministers wherein the custome of the Church no Tradition or Councell generally preuayled to this rule I say that it cracks the very crowne of the popish church for nothing not conteined in the scriptures could be vniuersally obserued but eyther Traditions from the Apostles or else the Decrees of plenarie Councels it is cleere that the Popes vniuersall power is shutte out of doores and therefore to requite the intricate Dilemma he talkes of let me reason thus with your Papist The Pope either hath power to impose decrees and constitutions vpon the vniuersall Church of Christ or else he hath not if hee haue then Austines rule is crooked and may deceiue vs if he haue not then the Popes vniuersall shephardship ouer the whole Church is come to nothing Howbeit I beseech you marke further how hee hudleth vp contraries and so marreth the fashion of his owne rule for if all things obserued vniuersally must be followed and imbraced as Traditions from the Apostles if they bee not contained eyther in scriptures or Councels then no man may presume vpon any alteration of states and times to abolish them if they may abolish them and alter them then are they not bound to follow imbrace them adde hereunto that as the Apostles successors as hee saith might and haue alteted and abolished apostolicall Traditions generally practised in the vniuersall Church so I would see some reason why they may not stil vpon the like alteration of circumstances abolish more of them and so it will follow that all the doctrine of the Catholicks not found in scripture hangs vpon circumstances and may if it please the Apostles successors be quite abolished hath he not spun a faire threed thinke you that thus indangereth his owne religion yet he croweth lowd after all this fond feather-fluttering that all is as cleare as the Sunne yet neuer durst any Catholicke father or church one or other set downe this remnant of Traditions and vnite it to the body of the canonicall Scripture which infallibly demonstrateth that all is not as cleare as the Sunne and it is further to bee obserued how hee is faine to clowt out Saint Austines rule with a new patch which marres all for when he saw that vniuersall practise is not enough to proue a Tradition apostolicall vnlesse it be traced still downeward from the Apostles to our dayes Are kept he is not content with Custodiuntur which he findes in Austine but addeth haue bin vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop which no man aliue is possibly able to make good in any one vnwritten Tradition popish or catholicke vnlesse the Church had continually appointed in euery age such an one as Sir Francis Drake that should trauell all the worlde ouer from
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
it was lawfull by the law of God in cases specified in the same lawe that is Cap. 22.2 as I take it if the thiefe breake vp a house for that I finde specified in Exodus Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified giueth sentence of a thiefe that as the Lorde liueth he is the child of death that is that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm Arbangtaijm Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold as no Romanist may deny Exod. 21.1 because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe we see plainely that beside the sentence of death Cap. 6.31 which Dauid iustifieth with an oath the punishment specified in the law is doubled nay the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon where it is sayd that a thiefe being taken shall restore seuen fold or giue all the substance that he hath Rom. 13.4 and touching the christian Magistrate S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 5.20 that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance which God hath put in his hand where feare is made the end of punishment as it is in Timothy where the same Apostle saith them that sinne rebuke openly that the rest may feare but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure that might worke this feare and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state that euill disposed men may feare and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall but still to increase the terrour of them till feare to doe euill be sufficiently planted and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure or indignation against sinne Psal 90.11 for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words thereafter as thou art feared so is thy displeasure wherefore these two displeasure and feare are like the two buckets of a Well whereof the one commeth vp when the other goeth downe and the one is at the highest when the other is at the lowest briefely then to conclude as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time and a long time after to worke feare in that Nation and State but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates as they saw the disposition of the people to require it so the christian Magistrate finding by experience that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse must needs whe this sworde and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate that he may be feared The Dialogue Sestio III. Tradition PAp I will a It is better to omit them then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest omit those other pointes of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture for breuities sake and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause reseruing your answere to the rest vnto your better leasure and premeditation yet by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point b VVe can ackdowledge no such traditions who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles without writing and continued and obserued from hand to hand with no lesse reuerence then they did the written Scriptures Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time that when the Scriptures were alledged against them they would answere that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles and kept in the church by succession of Bishops were obiected they would answere that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues and that they alone had found out the trueth lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c They might better doe it then then you now Catholiks in the first age of the Church did alledge against the hereticks of that time Scripture and Traditions euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time and herein onely consisteth the difference when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time they doe flie to the interpretation when the interpretation of the Bishops that is of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them they answere in effect that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes and that they alone haue found the trueth when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d You may sooner alledge them then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them alledged they answere that the Apostles did leaue none such or if they did that they are not to bee receiued vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture when scripture is brought against you you appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of the fathers to the interpretation of Caluin or to the e This is but the imagination of your brayne imagination of your owne braine as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers you herein Epiphanius O portet autem traditione vti non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt c. Wee ought to vse traditions beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture And a little after it followeth Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere lib. 2. to 2. haeres 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie The same father for the confutation of Aerius vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles haeres 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus hee voucheth a place out of the booke a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke of the Apostles Constitutions haeres 45. Saint Augustine Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles b How can it be knowne whether this beleefe were right or wrong are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition because they are obserued through the vniuersall world de baptis cont Donat lib. 2. fo 2. The same Author saith that the vniuersall Church doth obserue as a tradition of the fathers that when mention is made of the dead at the tim of the sacrifice that they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them de verb Apost serm 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the
Bishop to Bishop to know and certifie the state of al Churches and yet that policy could not worke faith further then the credite of the man which is a poore stay for a christian conscience Verily the credite of men is but a sandye foundation to build vpon in matters not written seeing your Papist was so fouly ouerseene in the community of all things a matter written in great letters and so determined in the worde of God that all open eyes may see and perceiue that it was neuer vniuersally practised and whereas it pleaseth him to talke of weedes and bastard plants that they could not still remaine without checke or contradiction I am sure he hath read in Matthew Sap. 13.25 that while men slept the enuious man sewd tares among the wheat and that both should grow together vntill haruest and therefore no maruell though the mystery of iniquitie grew on stil by little and little by reason of mens sleepines and wrought closely without any effectuall contradiction otherwise it had not beene a mystery yet notwithstanding when once it was growne so out of fashion that men saw how vgly and mishapen it was 2. Thes 2.7.8 then the spirite of the Lords mouth began to consume it and when haruest is come it shall be abolished neither is it maruell that Councels and catholicke Doctors slept while the tares of Anti-christian Religion were a sowing and so ignorantly gaue their helping hand to the inthronizing of the man of sinne Apoc. 2.13 c. for the Angell of Pergamus was a faithfull seruant of God yet Satan had erected himselfe a throne in his Church to teach the doctrine of Baalam Apo. 2.19 c. and the Nicholaitans which God hated the like may be sayd of that worthy Angell of Thyatira of whom God gaue testimonie that hee knewe his loue seruice faith patience and workes to be more at the last than at the first yet hee suffered the woman Iezabel to deceiue the seruants of God The Dialogue Sectio V. PAp Now let vs returne from whence we haue digressed that is to say vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I haue sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause by a How prooue you that wee haue excluded them excluding out of your Church all the ancient Catholick Fathers and Doctors for admit that you could by expounding wresting of scriptures intrude your selfe into such a Church as holdeth no Doctrine but such as is warranted by the canonicall Scriptures b Nonsequitur yet must you leaue out of the same Church as Heretickes and Scismatickes all the ancient Fathers and Bishops of the Latine and Greeke Churches neither are you c you measure vs by your selues able to name any time or place where or when your Church was extant or any one Bishop or principall member thereof Pro. What points of Doctrine are they which the antiquitie did hold without warrant of scripture what ancient Fathers Doctors Bishops were they that held such doctrine Pap. In a word they were all Papists which being prooued you will not denie the consequent d All the Fathers held not these points and some of these points were bastards and haue no knowne Fathers they held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation they offered a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead they prayed to Saints held also vowes of chastitie the vnlawfulnesse of Priests marriage and the descention of Christs soule into Hell call you not this Papistry I am sure you had rather be in your Church alone than to be troubled with such papisticall Companions now shall you heare e All this hath nothing in it but facing the opinion of euerie Doctor deliuered by his owne penne in such plaine words as you shall not be able by any glosse or distinction to peruert but must néedes confesse that they were all out of your new Church I will begin with prayer for the dead and so goe on in order The Answere THe second wound is come at length to the searching namely that all the ancient Fathers and Bishops must bee excluded as heretickes and scismatickes out of our Church and why so Marry because they held certaine points of Doctrine not warranted by the canonicall Scriptures is not this a deepe wound thinke ye wee say indeed that no other doctrine ought to bee curtant in the Church but such as hath the image and superscription of the Canonicall Scriptures but doe you therefore say that all such as haue beene carried beyond those limits through ignorance or infirmitie Cyprian lib. 2. Epist 3. are to be put out for wranglers Si quis de antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruauit tenuit quod nos dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati eius de indulgentia domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci qui nunc à domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance or simplicity did not obserue and keepe this which the Lord by his example and commandement hath taught the Lord of his mercie may pardon his simplicitie but wee after wee haue beene admonished and instructed so of the Lord may looke for no pardon Thus sayd Cyprian of the Aquarians that were before him and so say we of the ancient Fathers that haue added the timber hay and stubble of traditions to the gold siluer and precious stones of Scripture howbeit see I pray you how your Papist hanges the principall pillars of his Religion vpon tradition and all to wring out the Fathers out of our Church The Fathers were all Papists and held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation Sacrifice for quicke and dead prayer to dead Saints vowes of chastitie the single life of Priests and the descention of Christs soule into hell all these trim points of learning you shall heare now so prooued by tradition out of euerie Doctor as you must confesse to bee super excellent yet take heed you do not expound these words euerie Doctor heretically after the imagination of your owne braine for I dare assure you he neuer saw the couers of euerie Doctor and therefore you may not vnderstand them simply as they sound but charitably for so many as haue writings extant and could be intreated of this suddain to speake an ambiguous word or two in these matters The Dialogue Sectio VI. Prayer for the dead EPiphanius lib. 3. To. primo Cap. 75. It appeareth there that the Hereticke Aerius was of your opinion a And of yours too for you dare not pray for the release of incurable sinnes as the Church then did looke bet-vpon Epiphanius concerning Prayer for the dead and concerning the feast of Easter and the equalitie of Ministers he was a flat Puritane For he held that there was no difference betwéen a Priest and a Bishop he vsed the b
Offices of the liuing are here sayd to procure greater mercie at Gods hands than the sinnes of the dead haue deserued where obserue that the sway of the time so carried both Paulinus and Austine two worthy renowned Bishops that the one would not yeeld though he could not tell how to answere Saint Pauls authoritie 2. Cor. 5.10 Cap. 7. par 3. and the other sheltered himselfe as Denys doth in his Hierarchy vnder a short heeld answere that 's readie to fall backward if you do but look vpon it Paul saith We must receiue euery man according to that he hath done in the bodie either good or euill Here Paulinus is at his wits end and cannot tell how this can agree with prayers sacrifices almes and the Patronage of dead Martyrs and such like humane inuentions and yet he stickes in the mire still and desires Austine to help him out see now how Austine answeareth Meritum per quod ista profint si nullum comparatum est in hac vita frustra quaeritur post hanc vitam If there be no merit by which these things may doe good Libr. de cura pro mortu Cap. 1. gotten in this life it is in vaine to seek it after this life And a little after Vt hoc quod impenditur possit ei prodesse post corpus in ea vita acquisitum est quam gessit in corpore That this which is bestowed may profit him after the bodie it is purchased in this life which hee liued in the bodie But what merite is this hee talkes of doth it respect God or man if man then man must reward it if God why the Apostle assureth vs by Cōmission frō God 2. Cor. 5.10 that we shall receiue good according to that good we haue done in the flesh and therfore all such praiers sacrifices are superfluous again the praiers sacrifices of the liuing depending vpon our former merits must needs procure either lesse or the same or more mercy than wee haue merited in our life time if lesse then they hinder vs if the same then do they not further vs if more then doe we not receiue according to the good that we haue done in the body as Paul saith but according to the praiers sacrifices of our friends Here your Papist hath a Dilemma a Trilemma too to worke vpon if he can do any thing Austine Paulinus shall be beholding to him if nothing thē Paul the Apostle must haue the victory In the mean time the verie same Dilemma and Trilemma too must repell the force of the next place cited out of Austines Enchiridion Cap. 100. for there Austine addeth immediatly Sed eis hac prosunt qui cum viuerēt vt haec sibi postea prodesse possēt meruerunt But these things profit thē who when they liued deserued that they might profit them afterward Wherfore Austine vsing the same shift to rid his hands of Saint Pauls authority Vid. Lumb Eb. 4. distinct 45. D. I must vse the same answere to defend it if two men of equall merite be inequally rewarded because prayers and sacrifices are offered for the one and not for the other then euerie man receiueth not according to that himselfe hath done in the flesh but according to that other men doe for him when he is out of the flesh Howbeit this second place of Austine speakes not of prayers but sacrifices and almes giuen in the Church which belongeth to the fourth point of doctrine to wit sacrifice for the quicke and dead if your Papist thinke that sacrifice and prayers goe together let him take heed hee bee not deceiued for Cyprian speaking of Laurentius and Ignatius Martyrs saith thus Lib. 4. Epist 5. de verb. Apo. serm 17. in Ioh. tract 84. Sacrificia pro eis semper vt meministis offerimus We alwayes as you know offer sacrifices for them Yet Austine saith that Martyrs are not prayed for and that it is iniurious to pray for them but because hee dispatcheth two of his points at once let this place and some other of Cyprian strike some stroke in this question of Sacrifice wee offer Sacrifices for Martyrs saith he Quoties Martyrum passiones dies anniuersaria commemoratione celebramus As often as wee celebrate the sufferings dayes of the Martyrs with a yeerely remembrance And this sacrificing pro Martyribus Austine himselfe confesseth to be nothing else but praise thankesgiuing and so hee celebrated the day of Cyprians Martyrdome yea but though Martyrs bee not prayed for Serm. de Cyp. Mart. in oper Cypr. when they are remembred at the Altar yet all other which are there mentioned are prayed for saith Austine in the third place and in the last place sacrifices saith he for those that be Valdè boni verie good be thankesgiuing but for those that be not Valde mali Verie euill they bee propitiatorie I see what Saint Austine saith yet all other beside Martyrs stood not in need of releefe as namely the Patriarckes the Prophets the Apostles the Euangelists the Confessors the Bishops the Anachorits and our most holy vnspotted most blessed Ladie Gods Mother the Virgine Marie All these I trowe were not Martyrs yet were they all prayed for in the lyturgies of Basile Chrysostome and Epiphanius not to releeue them but to glorifie God in his seruants and to profite the Church by commemoration of their vertues it cannot be denied but God blessed his Church continually with many such as were Valde boni beside Martyrs and therfore either prayers and Sacrifices go not alwayes one way or els some of these places of Austine must needs fall Howbeit to returne to Saint Cyprian we read that it was decreed by his predecessors that if any brother at his death should leaue the execution of his will to any of the Clergie he should not be offered nor sacrificed for now followeth the approbation and practise of this decree in in these words Cum victor frater noster de saeculo excedens contra formam nuper in concilio à sacerdotibus datam Libr. 1. epist 9. Gemintum Faustinum praesbyterum ausus sit actorem constituere non est quo pro dormitione eius apud vos fiat oblatio aut de precatio aliqua nomine eius in ecclesia frequentetur vt sacerdotum decretum religiosè necessariè factum seruetur c. Seeing victor our brother departing out of this world durst contrary to the order taken of late by the Priests in the Councell appoint Geminius Faustinus a Priest his executor there is no reason why you should make any offering for his decease or that the Church should meete to deprecation for his sake that the religious and necessarie ordinance of the Priests may be obserued Thus farre Cyprian out of which I gather that if these offerings and sacrifices and deprecations had bin made for refrigeration of soules departed then Cyprian and his Collegues and predecessors that made and executed
euangelium demonstrat inferos intelligimus nouissimum quadrantem modicum delictum mora resurrectionis illic luendū interpretamur nemo dubitauit animam aliquid pensare penes inferos salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnem quoque When we vnderstand by the prison which the Gospell speaketh of hell interpret the last farthing a small sin to be done away by the delaying of the resurrection no man will doubt that the soule doth pay something in hell leauing the rest to be fulfilled at the resurrection by the flesh also Here we finde somewhat like purgatorie though I dare not say it is the same but let it be so if you will Now see what followeth in the same place immediately Hoc Paracletus frequentissimè commendauit si quis sermones eius ex agnitione charismatum promissorum admiserit This the Paraclete hath often commended if a man admit his saying by acknowledging the promised graces Where you may learne that doctrine was knockt into Tertullians head by his familiar that is by the Paraclete of Montanus Yea but why dare you not say that this prison is Purgatorie doe you aske why Marry the verie wordes make me to stand doubtfull namely per carnem quoque by the flesh also which to my vnderstanding import that the soule only must not feele smart but caro quoque the flesh also and good reason it should be so for if nothing can enter into the kingdome of heauen before it bee purified and wee know that the modica delicta small sinnes as well as other capitall sins taint the body as well as the soule wee must needes deuise a Purificatorie for the one as well as a Purgatorie for the other and so hold with Tertullian that the soule before the resurrection shall suffer per se by it selfe and after the resurrection per carnem quoque else all is marred Robert Bellarmine the new Cardinall saw this place of Tertullian I dare say for him yet he passeth it ouer slightly citeth another place for purgatory out of the same booke Ille id est angelus executionis te in carcerem mandet infernum Bellar. de purg lib. 1. cap. 4. cap. 6. vnde non dimittaris nisi modico quoque delicto mora resurrectionis expenso He that is to say the Angel of execution shall cast thee into infernall prison whence thou shalt not come out till euery little sinne be paid for by the delay of the resurrection This place he cites in two seuerall places and giues vs a speciall note to carry away with vs Nota solum esse manendum in carcere purgatorij ad summū vsque ad resurrectionē But alas good father Robert the other place marres the fashion of this note for it addes Salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnē quoque which giueth vs a new note that both soule and body must likewise suffer in this infernall prison after the resurretion I doubt when all is come to all this prison will prooue to be hell not purgatory yet such a hell as the millinarie heresie dreamed to be temporall not eternall wherefore I hope your papist will no more seeke the beleefe and practise of the Church in Tertullian Ierom contra Heluid who was not of the Church nor looke any more in Tertullians mouth for his age telling vs that he liued neere vnto the Apostles till he can proue his doctrine to be apostolicall The names of Epiphanius Ambrose Austine and Chrysostome are repeated heere for a shew but you haue heard what priuate conference I had with them whereunto adde that their witnesse being single men cannot iustly be accepted for a publike record of religion whereunto Luther of any other seruant of God may not oppose himselfe they liued in a manner altogether they could not see ouer farre either before or behind or about them neither is it conuenient that wee should make an idoll of mans authoritie a great sort of fathers agree that Elias shall come before the last day Mat. 17.12 yet I had rather beleeue Christ that saith Elias is come already many of the fathers say the wicked a thousand yeres after domes day Lib. 2. cap. 39. 40. shal be saued yet by your leaue I had rather say otherwise Irenaeus held that Christ was nere fiftie yeres old when he was put to death and proued it by the common consent of all the Bishops of Asia that learned it of S. Iohn yet may we not beleeue that this was then beleeued through the vniuersall Church Tertullian in his Apologie for the Christian Churches of his time saith that the soule cannot suffer any thing Sine stabili materia id est earne Yet may we not beleeue that Christians beleeued so through the world The same father saith in the same Apologie that Christians did thē publikely pray Pro mora finis yet were it hard to say after him Apoc. 22.20 that the whole Church praied against the appearing of Christ in the clouds to vanquish death and to accomplish their redemption S. Iohn prayed Come Lord Iesu come quickely And therefore I dare not say the Church euer prayed Stay Lord Iesu and come slowly Howbeit let the Catholike fathers haue all the credite honor that bare men be capable of we will not stand against it but to throw down so many kingdoms so many dukedoms so many flourishing Common-weales so many free cities Churches as if the bare affirmation of one man did ouerrule them it is too much indignitie if Luthers bare affirmation be so mightie in operation let not your Papist his companions call any more for miracles to confirme his vocation but if it be the breath of Gods mouth that began in him in his time more powerfully to consume Antichrist then in former ages thē feare friend Papist I say feare the reuenging hand of God who wil not suffer his power to be derided The Dialogue Sectio XI Purgatorie ALl the proofes before alleaged for prayer for the dead may as well serue for the proofe of Purgatorie for such is the relation betweene the one and the other as a This is but a conceit looke the answere they cannot be separated For why doe wee pray for the dead the answere is made by S. Chrysostome that b Some prayd to that ende without warrant and some to other endes c. as shall appeare they may attaine to rest that they may find the iudge fauourable whereof it followeth that they are in a place where they want rest where they haue néed of refreshing yet I will alleage some few places for the peculiar proofe thereof Saint Austine expounding the place of Saint Paul the third to the Corinths if any man shall build vpon this foundation c. saith thus c These places are not Austines many there be that by misunderstanding this place doe deceiue themselues with a false securitie beléeuing that if they doe build vpon the
vs but a deuout mind for wheresoeuer a man so qualified speaketh he wil answere These be reuerend witnesses such as cannot be excepted against to whom Chrysostomes witnesse may bee added out of his Homilies de poenitentia Homines vtuntur atriensibus Homil. 4. saith hee in Deo nihil est tale sine mediatore est execrabilis Men vse dore-keepers in God there is no such thing for he is execrable or easie to bee intreated without a mediator And againe elsewhere De profect Euang. Nihil tibi opus est patronis apud Deum neque enim tam facile Deus audit si alij pro nobis orent quam si ipsi òremus et si pleni simus omnibus malis With God thou hast no neede of any Patrons for God doth not so readily heare if others pray for vs as if we pray our selues although we bee full of all manner of euils Wherefore they that set vp to themselues new mediators whether it be of redemption or intercession for by such nice distinctions our good Catholickes elude the authoritie of Saint Paul those men dishonour Iesus Christ our onely mediator 1. Tim. 2.5 and so make open shew to the world that they are the members of Antichrist The Dialogue Sectio XX. Vowes of Chastitie and marriage of Priests VEteribus Iudeorum sacerdotibus vxores ad vsum habere licebat c. It was lawfull for the ancient Priests among the Iewes to haue the vse of wiues because they a After that Dauid had sorted them not before had much time wherein they were not employed in the administration of their office but when the time drew néere wherein they were to serue in their turnes First hauing prepared themselues some dayes before they came vnto the Temple to offer to God but now there ought to be b VVhy doe you not obserue this as well as the other seuen Deacons and so many Priests as euerie Church may haue two Priests and euerie Citie one Bishop and for this cause ought they all of them to abstaine from women because they are all of them bound c VVhat night and day continually without intermission continually to attend vpon their office in the Church neither haue they any time of intermission wherein after their companying with their wiues they may d There was neuer any purification of Priests since Christs time yet many were maried neither is it needfull to purifie an vndefiled bed Hebr. 13 4. be purified as the Priests of the Iewes had for they are to offer euerie wéeke if not euerie day vnto strangers yet twise euerie wéeke for their Parochians and there are dayly some sicke persons to be baptised Saint Ambrose in his Commentarie vpon the third Chapter of the first Epist to Timothie The Answere THese Vowes and single life of Priests which our Papist here propoundeth for Catholicke proceeded first from the Deuill the spirite of errour and so Paul teacheth vs in the first to Timothie Cap. 4.1.3 neither is it any thing to the purpose that the ancient Fathers allowed of these errours and gaue them countenance in their writings for heretickes did so likewise aswell as Catholickes and the Fathers did it not of a set deliberate iudgement but of an extraordinary zeale and loue they bare to that kinde of life especially in Gods Ministers Castitas blanda est quemlibet ad se alliciens Ier in Math. cap. 19 Orig in Rom. ca. 12 lib. 9. Chastitie hath a faire shew and doth easily entice any man to it saith Ierome and Origen Potest aliquis de Castitate plus sapere quà m oportet sapere A man may haue a better conceit of Chastitie than hee ought to haue and that the Fathers sometime went beyond the bounds of sobriety in this point of doctrine let Chrysostome serue for example who writes thus in his first Homilie vpon Mathew Chrysost in Math. Hom. 1. Haec ipsa coniunctio maritalis malum est coram Deo non dico peccatum sed malum This verie coniunction of married couples is euill before God I do not say it is sin but euill And yet presently after in the same place he sayth Non potest fierie vt vna eademque res pro parte sit iustitia pro parte peccatum aut enim tota est iustitia aut totum est peccatum quia libido in maritis adulteris res vna est It cannot be that one the same thing should be partly righteousnesse and partly sinne but it must be either all righteousnesse or all sinne because lust in maried persons and adulterers is one thing You shall haue another example out of the west I meane out of Tertullian who though he were a Priest himselfe as Ierome witnesseth Descrip ecclesiast lib. 1 ca. 11. Tertul lib. de exhort ad castitat and maried too as appeareth by his Booke written to his wife saith notwithstanding In matrimonio deprehendo quae stupro competunt In matrimonie I finde some things which are competent to adulterie And againe Nuptiae ex eo constant quod est stuprum Marriage consisteth of that which is whoredome The like vnciuill out-roads against Gods holy ordinance may you finde in Ierome against Iouiniane and Heluidius and in his Letter to Gerontia and in some other of the ancient Fathers and therefore in all equitie you must thinke they are not fit Iudges to determine either of Priests marriage or vowes of Chastitie Howbeit let vs heare what they say The first is Ambrose whose reason drawn from the Priests vnder the law is now nothing worth among vs where neither of the Sacraments is so often to bee attended vpon but that your Priests for ought may appeare haue time inough to be purified in neither was this often baptizing and communicating general euery where or most where in Ambroses time Againe what impuritie or pollution can there bee in the true and lawfull vse of marriage doth Saint Paul say the bed is vndefiled Hebr. 23 4. De bono coniug cap. 11. Socrat. hystor lib. 1. cap. 8. and Austine Sancta sunt corpora coniugatorum fidem sibi domino seruantium The bodies of married folkes are holy if they keepe their faith betweene themselues and to the Lord. And doth not Paphnutius that worthy Confessor say in the hearing of all the Fathers in the Counsell of Nice Viri cum vxore legitima concubitus castimonia est The companying of a man with his lawfull wife is chastity Verily I see not why I may not answere Saint Ambrose as the voice of God from heauen answered Saint Peter in the like case those thinges that God hath purified pollute thou not I am sure Ignatius giueth him a sharper answere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 10 15 11 9. ad Philadelph That is to say Hee that calleth lawfull copulation and procreation of children corruption and pollution that man hath the apostaticall Dragon the Diuell dwelling in
the vngodlie wee aske we obtaine The Dialogue Sectio XXVII ANd here will I make and end referring that which hitherto hath béene spoken to your better censure and further consideration whereupon if you shall rest resolued that you haue rightly described the Church of Christ and that you are also a member of the same yet a No such matter it is but the vanitie of your conceit must you be inforced to graunt that all the ancient fathers before mentioned were hereticks and that so was also that vniuersall Church whereof they make mention so ofteÌ„ in their writings b Paul saith that Antichrist doth sit in the temple of God and therefore no maruel though his seat were alwayes in preparing in the Church wherin the said heretical and papisticall doctrine was taught and practised but let vs admit although it bée most false that there was in the world such a Church as you haue c VVe goe by truth not by imagination imagined for the first 300 yéeres next alter Christ and that these ancient fathers and doctors with their adherents did afterward ecclypse that cleare light of the Gospell which shined in those first 300. yéeres yet how can we imagine that the Church of Christ which was indowed with so many gifts of the holy Ghost and which euer flourished and increased most amidst the tortures of so many heathen Emperours could vpon d We doe not imagine so for the kingdome of Antichrist was not erected vpon a suddane but by lâ—tle and litle irremarkeably as weeds vse to grow among thâ— good coâ—ne a sudden be so vtterly quayled and extinguished by these hereticall doctors as that no member thereof should once take pen in hand in defence of the trueth against their heresies or how can we e VVho bids you imagine so but your Synagogue lay hidden til Antichrist was d sclosed 2. Thes 2.3 imagine that the Church of Christ should for the space of 1300. yéeres lie hidden in so secret corners of the world as that none of the said papisticall doctors who wrote against all those by the name of heretickes which helde any doctrine contrary to that which they f The ancient fathers neuer termed such as you be Catholicks nor your doctrine Catholicke termed Catholicke could heare of them or that in all that time no generall Councell who were gathered together from all parts of the world should receiue intelligence g No Chur h had any being then but ours onely of the being of your mathematicall Church professing christianity in so farre different a maner which if either any of the said doctors or any of those general Councels had done h Non sequitur we should haue heard of them in the Catalogue of heretickes or haue found their opinions condemned by some generall councels so soone as Aerius arose and denied prayer for the dead c. he was i Full simply and full little to your credit but single men such as Epiphanius was in this case haue no authoritie to dubbe heretickes confuted by Epiphanius and afterward by S. Austine when the reall presence was k It was impugned 200 nay 500. yeeres and odde before your Lateran councels first impugned the first authors thereof were condemned by the Councell of Laterane and so of other of your opinions as they sprang vp in latter yeeres but a Protestant religion such as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before king Edwards time neither hath that religion at this day any being in the world l A foule vntruth without either gaâ—d or welt but in England onely And Puritany such m They professe no such matter as professe to be of a church which holdeth no doctrine but such as is warranted by scripture neuer had nor yet hath any being in the world so that it is n This fellow seemes not to know what religion and Church is a religion and a church as yet in imagination onely for although Puritanes o you haue cause to loue them the better for in so doing they resemble you Papists doe violently and ridiculously wrest the scripture for proofe of euery point of their doctrine yet doe they hold many things not warranted by scripture as before I haue sufficiently prooued There was neuer heresie in the world but you shall reade when it first sprang vp how it grew and increased and when it was cut downe and withered away you shall neuer p you may read in Paul when it first sprang and when it shal be cut downe 2. Thes 2 7 8 reade when the catholicke religion first sprang it hath for these 1300. yéeres by q VVe confesse no such matter your own confession increased and florished it hath béene confirmed by infinite miracles and watered with the blood of millions of Martyrs and therefore the way that leadeth and directeth vnto the catholicke religion is r But by your leaue we must doubt of it or rather be out of doubt it is not no doubt the way whereof the Prophet Esay speaketh saying And there shall be a path and a way and it shall be called the holy way and it shall be to you so direct and plaine as fooles shall not be able to erre therein Contrariwise you shall Å¿ In the Bible reade when and where your doctrine first sprang vp who were the fathers thereof and it hath béene t The more to blame they that did it cut so oft as it hath reuiued so oft as any branch thereof hath sprung vp it hath béene confuted and condemned by generall Councels and is registred in the Catalogue of latter heresies you can shew no succession of bishops no myracles no u These be stale prattlements of no weight beseeming such vain ianglers martyrs nor name any one member of your Church before Iohn Caluin for although Wickliffe Husse and Luther with the Waldenses and certaine other condemned heretickes of Armenia and Grecia did iumpe with you in some of your opinions yet was none of them either Protestant or Puritane and so none of your Church and therefore the way that leadeth to your Church is not that direct and playne way whereof the Prophet speaketh but rather an inexplicable Labyrinth wherein there is x VVe haue the holy word of God to giue vs light and to guide vs cursed be he that lookes for better direction Amen no light no path no compasse or guide to direct your course The Answere HEere this man would make an end if hee could tell how but his conscience telling him that his discourses are weake and insufficient he would faine fortifie them with a little generall talke propounded and answered longe agoe Sect. 5. alibi and therefore though it be needlesse to keepe downe a dead Carkasse with any newe answere vnlesse hee could blowe life into it with some newe defence yet somewhat more would bee added in this place