haue bene confirmed to Bonifacius by Phocas But this will not hinder my argument for it is one thinge to declare and second an other thing to institute the institution of the Primacie you haue in the Gospell Ma◠〈…〉 18. Io. 21.18 S. Hierom. ep ad Dam Theod. ep ad Renat Presb Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. Touching the existēcie of our Religion in the tyme of Constantine See more in the Protestant Apol tract 2 c. ◠Sect. 3. the acknowledgment you haue in Antiquitie as I will declare hereafter and the exercise before the tyme of Boniface is well knowne On this Rocke will I build my Church said our Sauiour who commended his flocke peculiarly to S. Peeter I quoth S. Ierom to Damasus then Pope Following none formost but Christ doe communicate with thy Holines that is with the chaire of Peeter Vppon that Rocke I knowe the Church was built And Theodoret a Grecian speaking of that See That holy Seate hath the gouerment of all the Churches in the world You heard before what S. Leo said of it and you knowe how he did exercise this power Only because your fellowes are wōt to obiect a speach of S. Cregorie not content to take the interpretation of it from his owne mouth I put you heare in mind that he did exercise this power ouer all the Christian Churches in his tyme and this you haue noted by D. Sanders in his Monarchie Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. and not answered yet He shewes there I say out of S. Gregories owne writings how he did exercise the foresaid power ouer the Bysshops and Churches of Italie Sicilie Corsica Sardinia Africke Spaine Ireland England France Dalmatia Greece Corcyra and that the Patriarcks haue confessed Subiection to the Church of Rome Lastly wee haue the confession of your men here cited in this an gument for the generall obedience to the Pope euer since Constantine which is sufficient for this purpose howsoeuer the Grecians might some tymes beare themselues in some occasions of which I am to speake in an other place 23. A seuenth Arg. It is manifest by the scriptures aboue cited that the Catholique Church is perpetuall and cannot faile and Arg. 7 this by Scripture is meant of the visible Church whereof I haue giuen ample demōstration in the begining of this second Booke which I desire the reader to peruse and marke Now there is no Christian Church at all that hath bene petpetuall but this which I speake of Therefore this indiuiduall Church is the Catholique Church To See the truth of that I haue assumed let vs looke vpon the rest The Pagans come not in question because their Church is not Christian nor the Iewes for the same reason though they farre exceede you in this point of perpetuitie The Grecians they were in our communion the first thousand yeares and since haue bene neither was Grecisme beleeued allwaies or euer the faith of Nations and communion with you they haue refused Your Church and Religion hath not bene perpetuall as in the former booke wee haue seene to your griefe Another that can callenge there is not not the Aethiopian nor the Maronite nor any whatsoeuer The Roman hath euer beene and her communion euer bene vniuersall therefore this greate and ample Societie is the true Church of God 24. An eigth Argum. That is the Catholique Church whereūto come all Natiōs ād out of which all Heretiques do goe But into the communion of that companie which I haue Arg. 8 named that is into the communion of the See of Rome and the companie of Christians communicating with it all Nations hetherto haue come and out of it all Heretiques haue gone Therefore this is and hath euer bene the Catholique Church The proposition is cleere by the promises related in the beginīg that all Nations should be conuerted to the Church and her gates be euer open day and night to receiue them c. 1. Is 60. S. Aug. de Sym. 6. l. 1. c. 5. and as for Heretiques it is well knowne that they are boughes lopped of the great vine and that that heresie is a corruption of the true faith The assumption you haue at large in Ecclesiasticall Histories and you denie not but in the Primitiue tyme this companie was the Church Baronius Spondan auctar Iarricius Magdeburg Osiander Pappu◠See Prot. Apol. tr 2. c. 1. s 4. that Nations from Infidelitie were conuerted to it and that Heretikes all went out of the same companie Since vnto the same haue bene conuerted the Germanes Vandalls Polonians Danes Hungarians Noruegians Brasilians Indians and diuers others and to your companie or religion immediatelie from infidelitie no Nation at all Out of the same great companie haue gone all Heretickes since that tyme and among them those who in part were your predecessors Iconoclastes Berengarians Waldenses Albigenses Lollardes Hussites 25. Beare with me if I repeate the same againe Arg. 9 for a nienth argument The Romane See and other congregations in that communion were the Church or the Catholicke Congregation in the tyme of Saint Paul And the same congregation 300. yeares after was still the Catholicke Church and had the communion of the Christian world as you know by the Generall Councell of Nice Into it came Schythiās Iberians Armenians Hunnes and others Out went the Marcionites Nouatians Manichees Arianes Betwixt the fourth and fift age was the Coūcell of Calcedō and in that tyme likewise the foresaid cōmuniō was the Church Catholique ād their communion was with the christian world as by that councell of calcedon ād the Epistles of Leo the great who was President of it all men knowe Into this communion came Scottes French and other Nations Out went Pelagians and Nestorians after whose cōmunion in the Aethiopians you seeme to thirst In the next ages followīg which were the sixt ād seauēth were the Generall assemblies at Cōstātinople One in the tyme of Vigilius being the fifte Generall Councell The other in the tyme of Agatho which you haue in the Tōes of Councelles with most ample subscriptiō of the Bysshops which were in thē and by these Generall councelles which did also receaue the former it is euidēt that in those tymes also the cōpanie of Christians in cōmuniō with the See of Rome was the Catholicke Church ād that the communion of those Popes ād those Coūcelles was with the world of Christians Into it came the Pictes Gothes Barbarians and our Countrie Out were cast the Tritheites Monothelites and other such excrementes After those Councelles Followed others One at Nice in the tyme of Adrian the first Another at Constantinople Adrian the second being then Byshop of Rome By which Councelles it is cleere that the communion of the Roman See was then also generall and this companie the Church of God They did also receaue the former Councelles and noe communion was Generall in Christendome or continued by Vniuersall Succession but onelie this Into this companie came the Frisians Hassites Russians Out
went Maronites and your deere freindes the Iconoclastes with diuers others You see how this communion continues euer Catholicke and that the Romane See is found euer in the Church and the Church in communion with the See of Rome To follow the streame further it is needlesse because you confesse that long before this the communion of the Christian world was with the Pope of Rome and that Nations were conuerted thereunto He that will may reflect on the generall Assemblies held at Rome at Lions at Florence As Also vppō the flowing of Nations vnto this Ocean in this and former ages together with the discarding of the Waldenses Albigenses and other Hereticks and he will see it to be most true that in noe age any communion hath bene acknowledged Catholique but onelie this which wee speake of and that the See of * The first Nicene Councell an 325. Fathers 318. Against Arius Communicated with Syluester Bisshop of Rome Cedrenus Photius Socrates Eusebius Baronius First Constantinopolitan Councell an 381. Fathers 150. Against Macedonius Communicat With Damasus B. Rome Vide ep Conc. ád Damas Theodoret. Socrat. Phot. Baron Ephesine Councell an 431. Fathers 200. Against Nestorius Communicat With Celestine B. Rome Epist Concil ad Celest. ep ad Imperat. Marcellin Liberat. Theophan Balsam Niceph. Baron The Councell of Chalcedon an 451. Fathers 600. Against Eutiches Communicat with Leo B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Leon ep 50. Baron Second Constantinop Councell an 553 Fathers 165. Against Anthim and Theodor. Communicat With Vigilius B. Rome Zonaras Eutichius Ep. ad Vigilium Greg. magn Niceph Baron Third Constant Councell an 289. Fathers 680. Against Monothelites Communicat with Agatho B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Zonar Theoph. Cedren Baron Second Nicene Councell an 787. Fathers 350. Against imagebreakers Communicat with Adrian B. Rome Vide act Conc. Cedren Zonar Baron Fourth Constantinop Councell an 869. Fathers 101. Genebr 300. Against Photius Communicat With Adrian 2. B. Rome Vide act◠Conc. Anastas Niceph. Platin. Baron Rome was euer in the Generall communion of the Catholique Church Your obstinacie and opposition hath beene occasion that I haue considered more particularlie of this matter and considering it I take much content to see the old Prophecies of the Greatnes and Perpetuitie of the Christian Church fulfilled before mine eies in the Church wherein I am 26. The tenth argument Were all Papistes silent in the matter of the Church the thing Arg. 10 is so notable that Heretickes themselues against their will would lead vnto it ād point it out For if you consider well there is but one truth ād many wayes there are to goe against it one true Church many false and hereticall And all those Hereticall are against the Catholike Church as errours are all against the Truth Now by Ecclesiasticall Recorde it is cleere that all confessed Heresies from the first to the last haue opposed themselues seuerallie The first Lateran Councell an 1122. Fathers 300. For instauration of Discipline c. Communicat with Calixtus 2. B. Rome Sugerius Abb. Platina Onuphrius Baronius Second Lateran Councell an 1139. Fathers 1000. For the Right of the Clergie Communicat with Innocent 2. B. Rome Oth◠Frising Sigon Platin. Onuph Baron Third Lateran Councell ann 1179. Fathers 300. For Reformation VValdens condemn Communicated With Alexander 3. B. Rome Guelielm Tyrius Plat. Onuph Baron Fourth Lateran Councell an 1215. Fathers 1285. Holy VVarre Transubstantiation defined Reformation of the Clergie Albigenses condemned It Communicated with Innocentius 3. B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Palmer Onuph Plat. Genebr Spondan in Auctar. ad Baron The Councell of Lions an 1274. Fathers 1000. Against the errours of the Greekes Communicat VVith Gregory 10. B. Rome Guiliel de Nangis Gregoras Matth. Palm Plat. Onuph Spond The Councell of Vienna an 1311. Fathers 300. Against seuerall Heresies Communic With Clemens 5. B. Rome Platina Palm Onuph Spondan The Councell of Florence an 1439. Fathers 141. The Re-vnion of the Greeke and Latine Churches Armen Ind. Cōmunic With Eugenius 4. B. Rome Palmer Chalcond Volateran Plat. Spond The Councell of Trent Communicat With Pius 4. to the companie with which the Bisshop of Rome did communicate in the tyme wherein those Heresies were and this companie likewise hath opposed it selfe to them all neither did they euer oppose them selues all to any other companie whatsoeuer This companie therefore which I speake of and no other is and euer hath been the true Church 27. The 11. Argument That companie which hath euer borne and maintained the generall prouidence of common Church-affaires Arg. 11 is the Catholique But the companie in communion with the See of Rome hath donne this and noe other which to omitte histories wherein the thing is manifest and by Card. Baronius deduced at large I proue by Generall Councelles by which is seene euidently First the Generall communion of the Church in the tyme wherein each was held Secondlie the communion of the See of Rome with each of these Councelles and consequentlie with all those partes from whence the Bisshops came Thirdlie the communion of each of these Councelles with the former Councelles and precedent ages Fourthlie which is the thing I haue spoken of in this argument this Churches diligence in conseruing Church-discipline and condemning erroures 28. Harke how the canones roare if your nicer eares will beare the word in Bithynia in Thrace in Ionia in Italie in France euerie where Against Arius and his faction at Nice against Macedonians and Monothelites at Constantinople against Nestorians at Ephesus against Eutichians at Chalcedon against Waldenses Albigenses at Rome against the Begardes at Viēna against moderne Greekes at Lions and Florence and against Lutherās Caluinistes and all Protestantes at Trent In Defence Of the Sacramentes Of the Primacie Of the reall Presence Of the Incarnation Of the Deitie of the holy Ghost Of the consubstantialitie of the Sonne of God and other pointes of the Catholicke faith and Church Againe Sabellius from men of this communion receaues his doome in Alexandria Paulus Samosetanus in Antioch Pelagius in Carthage Berengarius in Vercells Gilbertus Porretanus in Rhemes Nouatus and Donatus in Rome Finally all Heresies that haue ben hetherto haue had their sentence of condemnation from men of this communion and company from this Church of ours This Church and no other hath maintained the faith hetherto at all tymes on all occasions This hath maintained the word of God and kept it to this day and you know not which it is but by this This Chutch and no other hath maintained the Fathers doctrine ād the authority of generall Councells hetherto This Church hath triumphed ouer all confessed heresies she hath allready suppressed more then two hundred and hath bruised the heads allso of those which last peeped out of Hell to hisse against the Truth 29 By the foresaid waie of Oecumenicall Councelles is demonstrated euidentlie the Vniuersalitie of the Romaine Church and the Catholicke communion which in
what you list you set vppon the Pastor It is defined in the Councell of Florence that the Bisshop of Rome is successor to sainct Peeter and that he hath receaued in him sainct Peeter from our Sauiour power to feede and to gouerne the whole Church This is one of the things which you cannot abide a Superiour you thinke is a heauie burden ād therefore you would shake him of The Apostles say you were according to Cyprian equall in honour and dignitie Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Ieron adu Iou. Leo ep 84. The strength of the Church was equallie established on them all in the opinion of Hierom and with Leo they had a likenes in honour This is the first onset wherein you shewe neither skill nor iudgment You had but latelie discharged all the Fathers for vnable men and therefore it was an vnaduised part in you now to summō them to fight vnder your colours for you may iustlie feare that in tyme of tryall they will declare themselues to be ō our side who haue euer reuerēced and defended thē ād not on yours where they and the Church authoritie and the Spirit of Gods Church are dis-esteemed and contemned 3. But I answeare that before S. Peeter was made Pastor the Apostles were all equall after he was made Pastor they were not equall S. Peeter was then chiefe ād Superior The rest of the Apostles had power giuen them to preach the Gospell to forgiue sinnes to binde ād loose to doe miracles but onelie S. Peeter had the prerogatiue of Pastor as the Scripture doth euidentlie declare And heereby he was otherwise compared vnto the flocke then any of the rest ◠c. 6. n. 52 with whom he had all the forenamed but excelled in this that they being Legates or Apostles onely in regard of their generall iurisdiction he was Pastor of the Church This is the doctrine of those Fathers which you haue cited as you may see in their books and to saue you the labour of looking further I will shewe it in the very same places you alleage The Church saith S. Ierom is founded on Peeter S. Ieron adu Iouin ◠1. though in another place it be donne vpon them all and all receiue the keyes of heauen and the strenght of the Church be equallie establisshed vppon all These things were equallie donne before S. Peeter was made Pastor they were all equallie made Apostles and foundations and had equallie the keyes but afterwards of these Apostles thus equall one was created Pastor the rest remaining as they were who remained therefore vnequall to this one which was Peeter 10. 21. as you know by the Gospell of S. Iohn and in regard hereof S. Hierome doth adde immediately to the words but now cited yet saith he for this one of the twelue is chosen that a HEADE being constituted the occasion of schisme might be taken away Capite cōstituto So now they are vnequall because one is made heade S. Cyprian doth teach the same in the place you cite Although saith he after his resurrection he our Sauiour giues equall power saying as my father sent me so do send you S. Cyp. de vnit eccl take the holy Ghost c. where the power of remitting sinnes is equallie bestowed on all yet that he might declare vnitie he by his authoritie disposed the ORIGEN of the same Vnitie BEGINING FROM ONE * Quamuis Apostolis omnibus c. tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnam Cathedram constituit vnitatis eiusdē originem ab vno incipientem sua authoritate disposuit Hoc erant vtique caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis sed exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur Primatus Petro datur vt vna Christi Ecclesia Cathedra vna monstretur S. Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Heere S. Cyprian doth shew what course Our blessed Sauiour tooke to keepe manifest vnitie in his Church and among the Apostles themselues He our Sauiour disposed being must wise an Origen Roote or cause of Vnitie which Vnitie he would haue in his Church and amongst all the Parts of it This Origē or Roote was not a multitude equally gouerning the Church but it was ONE that is Peeter whom our Sauiour made Pastor of his Church and vppō whō he built it as S. Cyp. noted a little before and therefore he saith he disposed the Origē of this Vnitie begining frō ONE So that wee haue in this very place the Primacie of S. Peeter in that he is the Roote and Origen of Vnitie in the whole Body wherein the Apostles were and allso the reason of the Institution of this Primacie or Origen in One. In another place he doth specifie it more particularly saying that The Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie is the CHAIRE that is the Pastorall Authoritie Nauigare audent ad Petri Cathedrā atque ecclesiam Principalē vnde vnitas sacerdotalis exorta est li. 1. ep 3. Vna Ecclesia à Christo Domino nostro super petram origine vnitates ratione fundata l. 1. ep 12. of Peeter And now I hope you wil beleeue it is his mind heering it out of his owne mouth Againe he saith that the Church is founded on a rocke in the Origē of Vnitie And that the Church is founded on Peeter which place S. Augustine doth allso alleage in his booke against the Donatists and in the same place which I must note heereby the way he atributeth expreslie the Primacie to Peeter Lastlie S. Cyprian saith the See of Rome is the Mother or Matrice and Roote of the Catholique Church Now if S. Peeter be the foundation or Rocke of the Catholique Church and the Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie wee may conclude that he is as S. Ierom said the Heade S. Leo doth teach very well that their election was equall they had many things and among the rest Apostolicall dignitie equallie bestowed on them but afterwards one was particularly made Pastor of the Church the Roote of Priestlie Vnitie and Superior to the * Cyprianus in Ep ad Quintum ita loquitur nam nec Petrus inquit quem primum Dominus eleget super quem a dificauit Ecclesiam suam cum secum Paulus disceptaret c. S. Aug. l 2 con Donat. c. 1. Apostolum Petrum in quo Primatus Apostolorum tam excellenti gratia praeeminet c. Ibid. Hortatos esse vt Ecclesiae Catholicae Matricem Radicem agnoscerent tenerent S. Cyp. l. 4. Ep. 8. vide eundem l. 1. ep 3. l. 4. ep 9. rest Vni tamen datum est vt caeteris praeemineret S. Leo. ep 84. S. Leo serm 3. de Anniuers Ass die qui praeponatur which donne they were not in ALL respects equall His words are Among the most blessed Apostles in similitude of honour was a certaine DISTINCTION OF POWER and whereas the Election of all was equall to one was granted that he should be EMINENT ABOVE
their Pastor he redeemed them not for he gaue his life for his sheepe If they were our Sauiours sheepe they were also commended to sainct Peeter 10. 10. for our Sauiour made him Pastor of HIS sheepe without excepting any By this you may vnderstaÌ„d a place of S. Augustine obiected some tymes Si hoc Petro tantuÌ„ c. tract 50. in IoaÌ„ Cuius Eccesiae Petrus Apostolus propter Apostolatus sui primatum gerebat figurata generalitate personam Idem Aug. in Io. tr 6. Your exception heere is that what was spoken to Peeter was spoken to all and that Peeter did represeÌ„t the Church wheÌ„ he tooke Authoritie from Iesus Christ Answeare If you meane it was in proportion and secondarilie spoken to all the rest and not onelie to the Apostles but allso to all other lawfull Pastors in the world I graunt it but this will not make theÌ„ all equall If you meane that it was equallie and immediatelie said to all your glosse is false and contrarie to the text He said to him Peeter feede my sheepe Peeter was nor all the Apostles As for the representation I answeare that S. Peeter tooke the office at the haÌ„ds of Iesus Christ for himselfe to vse and for his successors aÌ„d for all the Pastors of the Church as farre at it should be couenient to make them partakers of this power and sollicitude vlt. propter primatum quem in discipulis habuit id in psal 108. for the common good of the whole Church and he in this did represent them all according as I haue declared because all his successors and all inferior Pastors to the worlds end could not in their owne persons be there to receaue this power and the Church her selfe was no otherwise to take the power I speake of but by the haÌ„ds of her Pastor because the coÌ„munitie of Christians could not exercise that office of gouerning or being Pastor in regard this communitie was the flocke 8. By that which I haue said here in this Chapter you finde excluded your fellowes tale of Phocas first instituting the office of a generall Pastor in the Church For if the scripture may be beleeued Io. 21. cited in Coccius and Gualterius our Sauiour did institute this office or Authoritie And thus much was acknowledged by the Fathers of the primitiue Church aÌ„d exercised by the Popes Successors to saint Peeter before Phocas euer appeared in this world It is true that Emperours might second what our Sauiour had ordained before to the end the Imperiall decree thus waiting on the diuine institutioÌ„ meÌ„ respecting the temporall power might stand in feare to transgresse who would otherwise preuaricate notwithstanding the divine institution so many forbeare stealing for feare of temporall lawes whom Gods eternall lawe would not moue to forbeare In this kinde Phocas decreed that the Pope should be accompted heade though the title were due to him by vertue of a higher InstitutioÌ„ aÌ„d he stiled heade of Bishops before this as you may finde in the fourth generall a Quibus tu quidem sicut membris caput praeeras c. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem rogamus tuis decretis nostrum honora in iudicium sicut nos capiti in bonis adiecimus consonantiam sic summitas tua filijs quod decet adimpleat ibid. Councell Neither doth the title of Oecumenicall or Vniuersall Bisshop in the seÌ„se wee take it any way derogate vnto the rest their titles of Bisshops as Philosophers giuing the title of vniuersall cause to a cause supereminent as to the suÌ„ne or to God hereby take not away the name of cause from particular in this lower world as from horses fire men But yet if you take vniuersall in an other sense not for that which is eminent ouer many particulars but for that which so hath all within it selfe that none answearing to the name is without it as b Si vnus Patriarcha vniuersalis dicitur Patriarcharum nomen caeteris derogatur S Greg. l. 4. ep 36. put that of causes in the same forme Si vna causa vniuersalis dicitur causarum nomeÌ„ caeteris derogatur And tell me now in what sense the proposition is true Si vniuersalem me Papam vestra sanctitas dicit negat se hoc esse quod me fatetur vniuersum â— Greg. l. 7. ep 36. indic 1. ad Eulog Alex He that in this sense should arrogate the title of Vniuersall Bisshop were a fore runner of Antichrist saint Gregorie did vnderstand it so neither is the Sunne an vniuersall cause nor the Pope vniuersall Bisshop because there are more causes besides the sunne and more Bisshops besides the Pope THE SECOND CHAPTER The Pope aboue other Bishops I haue donne with the comparison of sainct Peeter to the rest of the Apostles it followes now that I consider what comparison his successor the Pope hath vnto the Patriarkes and other Bishops Your labour is to equall others with him in authoritie To this purpose you first make vse of the Grecians proceedings in the Councell of Chalcedon where the Byshops you say did equall the Constantinopolitan See with the Roman I answeare first that this adequation pretended was not in originall or prime authoritie but in matter of priuiledge as in the words it is expreslie set downe to enioy equall priuiledges c. aequis senioris regia Roma priuilegiis frâ—â—â— c. Conc. Chalc. acâ—â— 16. Now priuiledge is a distinct thinge from originall authoritie and accessorie thereunto The priuiledges they did ayme at were that the Bisshop of Constantinople should in his proportion haue a maiestie in Ecclesiasticall affaires aboue other Sees Rome excepted in regard that Constantinople was then the Imperiall seate as before Rome had bene and therefore that he should take place of other Patriarckes aÌ„d be second or next after him of Rome And with all that he should ordaine Metropolitans in the Dioceses of Pontus Asia and Thrace These priuiledges they did aime at and hereby would haue had a kinde of analogie with the Romane Bishop this attempt of the Grecians Leo then Pope would by no meanes approue and the decree which the Bishops had coÌ„ceaued he did anulle Wee do vtterly saith he make void and by the authoritie of the blessed Apostle Peeter S. Leo. Ep. 55. ad pul Aug. do with a general definition wholy disanull the consents or decrees of the Bishops which were repugnant to the rules of the Canons made at Nice Hence I answeare secondlie that the decree wanting the consent and approbation of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical and therefore were it vnderstood of original authoritie as it is euident it was not and that the Byshops would therin not by proportion onely but absolutly haue equalled an other Bishop with the Roman it would not suffice because a Councell when it is not Oecumenicall doth not containe the full power of the Church to define or make decrees but may mistake and erre 10. Since
you cannot speede there you endeuoure by the Nicene Councell to prooue the Bishop of Alexandria to be thus equall to the Roman and that the Romā Bisshop was there limited by the Councell as well as others I haue looked on that canon but see nothing for your purpose The Bisshop of Alexandria is not said there to be equall to the Roman Bishop neither is there any speach of limiting the Roman to the west as you pretend The words are Conc. Nicen can 6. Let the auncient custome be kept in Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bisshop of Alexandria haue power ouer all these because the Roman Bisshop hath such a custome Here the Popes custome is a reason whie the Bisshop of Alexandria is to haue power ouer Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis whereby is insinuated that the Bisshop of Alexandria therein depended on the Popes accustomed manner of gouermēt which argues a superioritie in the Pope not an equalitie in the other Your explicatiōs you must prooue to be text if you will haue me to beleeue thē Meane while neither in this Councell can you finde any thing for your cause vnles wee childishlie will take a glosse for the text and giue you equall authoritie with a generall Coūcell in assertiōs and decrees If the Romā Bisshop had there bene with his owne consent limited to the west for exercise of Patriarchal authoritie I would āsweare that he sustaining diuers offices in one and the same person might be more limited in regard of the one then of the other his Patriarchall power might be contained with in the west though his Pastorall Iurisdiction reached ouer the whole Church as man hath the power of seeing restrained vnto coloured Obiects but his power of vnderstanding reaches further to the whole latitude of being 11. Failing againe this way you stand still like a stocke and refuse to acknowledge any successor to sainct Peeter in his generall care and Pastorall office because you cannot see what necessitie there is of a Successor It seemes you are growne dull with disputing and would heare me rather speake I am contented A Successor in that office was ād is necessarie first because the Church at all tymes needs a generall Pastor ād visible Foundatiō as well as it did in the begining since therefore the Christiā Church is to endure till the worlds ēd Visible Pastor such as sainct Peeter was the Pastor ād visible Foūdatiō must likewise endure to confirme and to direct it secondlie Peeter in person could not feede ād rule all the sheepe of Christ from his tyme till the words end our Sauiour therefore prouiding the Church of a Pastor that might feede ād rule thē did in the persō of S. Peeter vnderstand his Successors in that office that so the sheepe might allwayes haue a Pastor to rule and feede them Otherwise the greatest part of the flocke that is all after S Peeters dayes till the worlds end should haue no generall Pastor here on earth though they wanted him no lesse yea more then did the Christians in sainct Peeters time Thirdlie the best forme of gouerment is Monarchicall something tempered with Aristocracie and the more Nations are added to the Church the more neede of a Monarch One is vndeuided in himselfe his iudgment and his principles are the same but a multitude is diuided ād the greater the multitude the more varietie of iudgmēt the greater the varietie of inclinatiōs dispositiōs affectiōs ād iudgment is the more neede there is of a cause of Vnitie to keepe them in One which would neuer be if euery mā freelie might chose his way and be a rule vnto himselfe Wee see this in Heretiques who hauing no visible cause of vnion in matter of faith doe runne sundry wayes Arius one Nestorius another and so to the very last Philosophers ould and moderne haue gonne seuerall waies and filld the Schooles with questions which will neuer be decided their iudgments being directed by no One. Seuerall Nations haue diuers lawes according to the different opinions of their Rulers and Lawe-makers the like would be in England if each Shire were independent of another and of a Monarch or common couerner In religion allso each Minister would haue his way Now the Church was to haue it it all Nations and in them is infinite varietie of iudgment 10. 10. id c. 21. wherefore our Sauiour to containe them all in one did ordaine a Monarch there shall be made one Fould and one Pastor Peeter feede my sheepe Act. 20. And tempering this Monarchie with Aristocracie he putte Bysshops allso to rule the Church Fourthlie it was necessarie that in the Church there should be one to attend generallie to the whole to call generall Councells to be President there to containe the multitude of Bishops in Vnitie and to haue a care principallie of the Churches generall affaires which care our Sauiour gaue to sainct Peeter as an Ordinarie Office in that he made him Pastor of his Fold the Christian Church and if it were necessarie then in the Apostles daies much more it is now Fiftly Pastors are to continue in the Church till the end of the world by the doctrine of S. Paul therefore the chiefe Pastor is likewise to continue which could not be in one person therefore in diuers If you say that our Sauiour himselfe is chiefe Pastor Ephes 4. I replie that amonge visible Pastors one is chiefe though subordinate vnto Christ and he is to remaine as well as the rest of the clergie and his existence is necessarie for the Gouerment of the Church Our Sauiour doth continuallie teach and baptize but by others and so doth he cōtaine the Church in Vnity and gouerne by subordinate meanes ordained and instituted for this purpose as God lights the world with the Sūne though if he had so pleased he could haue donne it otherwise 12. What you pretend about Election of a Successor is not hard the Church designes the Person and then he receaues power from our Sauiour in vertue of the first institution as man disposeth matter in the generation of a man and nature presents it so prepared vnto the Creator who by vertue of the first institution of mankinde inspires a sowle which the generant could not make It is true that the Churches action is hindered sometymes by Schisme or other meanes as mans generation is likewise hindred otherwhile but such hindrances are in tyme remoued and the Successor designed Neither is the Succession interrupted properlie in this tyme because this Election is a continuation of it So that all you haue said about the tyme of Schisme might haue bene spared because then the Church was busie in determining a successor though she were hindred sometymes more sometymes lesse according to the difficulties which did occurre 13. To conclude your opposition in this matter you take vpon you not to knowe who doth succede sainct Peeter But if you had lookt aboute you could not haue doubted First because
noe Bishop in the Church euer yet was estemed or did pretende to be aboue the Roman Bishop since therefore S. Peeter was putte in charge of the flocke of Christ ād made Pastor of the Church ād since this office of generall Pastor doth remaine it followes that the Bishop of Rome is ād still was he because he is and euer was confessedlie the first Bishop in the Church Secondlie the Pope of Rome by your confession hath exercised the Office of Generall Pastor of the Church these thousād yeares ād by the Coūcells the same is cleere neither was there any other all this tyme who did exercise or take on him that Office not the Bisshop of Antioch nor of Constantinople for these Bisshops and the most ancient Councells as the Nicene Constantinopolitan and others did acknowledge Rome before those Sees Neither was the See without a Successor all this tyme as I haue shewed before because the Pastor and Foundation is necessarie to the Flocke and Building therefore the Roman was and is he 14. Thirdly the fathers of the aūciēt Church as S. Augustine sainct Ierom sainct Cyprian sainct Ireneus and others affirme cleerelie that the Roman Bisshop is sainct Peeters Successor S. Hieron ad Damas S. Aug. ep 162. S Cypr. ep 55. Optatus cont Donat l. 2. S. Iren. l. 3. c. 3. Tenet ista sancta sede gubernacula regendarum cunct orbis Ecclesiarum Theod. ep ad Ren p◠Ro. S. Leo ep 84. Sainct Ierom calles that See S. Peeters Chaire adding that the Church is built on that rocke sainct Augustine putts a Catalogue of the Bisshops there first Peeter then Linus c. and saith that the Principallitie of the Apostolicall Chaire hath euer flourished in the Church of Rome sainct Cyprian calles it allso sainct Peeters Chaire and the principall Church whence Priestlie vnitie hath come The like hath Optatus sainct Ireneus doth adde that for the more powerfull principalitie of that church it is necessarie that all Churches haue recourse vnto it That holie seate saith Theodorette holds the sterne of gouerning the Churches of all the world sainct Leo knewe this in practise but heare his words It is by great order prouided that all should not claime all things to themselues but in euery Prouince should be some who should haue the prime sentēce amonge the bretheren and againe others placed in greater Citties should vndergoe greater care by whom the care of the Vniuersall Church should come to the one seate of sainct Peeter Fourthlie this is the iudgment of the Church acknowledging in the Roman Bisshop authoritie and power to call to moderate and to approoue generall Councells and it is declared in the great Lateran Councell that the Roman Church hath by Gods disposition the principalitie of ordinarie power ouer all the Churches Conc. Lat. sub Innoc. 3. c. 5. And finallie both East and West haue defined it in the Councell of Florence Cōc Flor. defin Wee define say the Fathers there that the holie Apostolique See and Bisshop of Rome hath the Primacie ouer the whole world and that the Roman Bisshop is the Successor of Blessed Peeter Prince of the Apostles and the true Vicar of Christ and heade of the whole Church and Father and master of all Christians and that vnto him in S. Peeter is giuen by our Lord Iesus Christ full power to feede rule and gouerne the vniuersall Church The same both Armenian Aethiopiā Vide Cocc ◠1. l. 7. art 4. 5. 6. 7 8. Russite and Assiriā Christiās haue acknowledged So that for this Primacie of the See Apostolique wee haue the Fathers Testimonie Theologicall Arguments Definitions of Generall Councells and the Testimonie of the Spirit in them the worlds consent and Gods word THE THIRD CHAPTER The Bishop of Rome President in Generall Councells 15. YOur next pretense is that the Pope hath no title to be President in generall Councells or to call or approoue them though he hath practised these things now of late Before I answere to this argument to shewe more cleerelie wherein the force of it doth lie you are with me to obserue two things the first is that there are two kinds of calling a Councell One is Eclesiasticall in way and forme of ordination the other is Temporall in way of execution The Question is of the former which is prīcipall ād wee are in it to see whether any man in the world hath such authoritie to call a Councell so as the Bishops are in regard of that calling bound to come The second obseruation is that one may haue the place of President in his owne name or in the name and place of another to whom principallie it belongeth and this Presidencie may be either to some temporall end as to keepe exterior order and peace in the Congregation or to a spirituall end which is to iudge and define matters of beleefe and to establish Church discipline by decree The question is of this second kinde of Presidencie not of the first And who is principall in this kinde as hauing power to doe it either by himselfe or by his deputie whereunto notwithstanding your obiection I answeare that it is the Pope to whom belongs properlie to call moderate and approoue Generall Councells because he is aboue another Bishops and Successor to sainct Peeter in the gouerment of the whole Church Being aboue other Bishops and their Pastor he hath power to call and to commaund them to meete in Councell when the Generall Church-affaires doe require it which no Bysshop or Patriarke besides can doe none of them all being Superior to all the rest Neither cā the Emperour or any other secular Prince doe it not principallie because he is not Gouernour of the Church or Church busines nor subordinatelie if by some principall cause he chance to moued thereunto because his power is not extended to the latitude of the Church or ouer all Nations and all Bisshops whatsoeuer nor euer was So that his commaund vnto such men as were out of his Dominions were of no power to bringe them together more then the commaund of the kinge of Spaine or of the Spanish Bisshops would serue in France When the Bisshops are assembled the Pope still remaines as he was before their Pastor and their Foundation and there-their director their moderator and Presidēt And this the Generall Councell of Chalcedon did acknowledge in the Person of Leo whom they stiled their Father and their Heade and themselues his Sonnes and his Members 10. The Catholique Church allso did euer acknowledge in the Pope this right of Presidencie which I prooue by all the Generall Councells that euer yet haue bene For the later held in the West you freelie graunt it and if you did not the proofe were easie frō Trent Lions Florence and Rome it selfe Of the former held in Greece I prooue the same * Quibus tuquidem SICVT MEMBRIS CAPVT praeras in his qui tuum tenebant ordinem beneuolentiam praeferens
Imperatores vero AD ORNANDVM decentissimè praesidebant Concil Chalced. Relat. ad Leonem Papam Insuper contra ipsum cui VINEAE custodia à Saluatore commissa est extendit Dioscorus insaniam id est contra tuam quoque Apostolicam Sanctitatem Ibid. Confidentes quia lucente apud vos Apostolico radio vsque ad Constantinopolitanorum EcclesiaÌ„ consuetè guberuand illum spargentes hunc sapiùs expanditis cò quòd absque inuidia consueueritis vestrorum bonorum participatione ditare domesticos Ibid Rogamus igitur tuis DECRETIS nostrum honora iudicium sicut nos CAPITI in bonis adâ—ecimus consonantiam sic Summitas tua FILâ—IS quod decet adimpleat Ibidem because Donatus Stephanus and Marinus were Presidents in the a Subscrip eight Councell as Legates of AdriaÌ„ the secoÌ„d Two Peeters one an Archdeacon the other an Abbot were Presidents in the b Subscrip seuenth in the name of Adrian the first Two Priests Peeter and George together with Iohn a Deacon were Presidents in the c Act. Conc. Zonar vit Coâ—nstaÌ„t Sixt for Agatho Eutichius in the name of Vigilius was President in the d Zonar in vita Iustiniani Vide Ep Eutichij ad Vigil Petimus praesidente nobis vestra ocatitudine c. fi collat 1 fift Paschasius and Iulianus in the e Conc. Chalc. in Relat. ad Leonem Fourth for Leo great Cyrillus for Celestine in the f Conc. Ephes Relat. ad Imp. Marcellin in Chron. Libertat in Breuiar c. 5. Niceph. l. 14. c. 34 third The Bishops who were at the g Ep. ad Damasum ap Theodoret. l. 5. c. 9. secoÌ„d Councell call Damasus their Heade aÌ„dit became Oecumenicall in regard is was by the Pope approued who before had called a generall Councell but the Bysshops could not all meete at Rome as he had appointed by reasoÌ„ of the Arian Heresie And therefore the Easterne Bisshops mette in one place vnder Nectarius the westerne in an other vnder Damasus who afterwards did approoue the Decrees of both parties and so came the councell to be one and Oecumenicall In the h Subscrip See Card. Peron Replique l. â— c. 35. se qq first Hosius Vitus ad Vincentius were Presidents in place of Syluester And by this induction it is cleere that in the Catholique Church the Popes right of Presidencie was not onely acknowledged but practized euer Neither can you alleage good Authoritie or any one approued Author who saith that euer yet any Priest Bishop or Patriarch was President in any Generall Councell in his owne name and not in the Popes which you should doe and prooue allso that the Church approued it as lawfull before you depriue the Pope of possession which he hath had many hundred yeeres by your confession and euer as I haue prooued and by Christs Institution too who made him in S. Peeter the FoundatioÌ„ and Pastor of the Church 17. As for the Emperours Conc. Chalc. in Relat. ad Leon. I answeare out of the Councell of Chalcedon that they were equiuocallie Presidents not for Iudgment and Definition but for peace and Ornament And so much Constantine the greate whom you preferre before those vnto whom he gaue place will confesse for himselfe and his Successors God saith he to the Nicene Fathers hath made you Priests Ap. Ruffin l 1. c. 2. and giuen you power to iudge of vs you may not be iudged by men wherefore looke for Gods iudgment onely amongst your selues and let your dissentions whateuer they be be reserued to Gods examine You are giuen vs as Gods and it is not conuenient that maÌ„ iudge Gods but he alone of whom it is written God stoode in the middest of Gods and in the middest God doth iudge For Approbation of Generall Councells my answeare and proofe is the same First the Roman Bisshoppe because Successor to sainct Peeter is the Foundation aÌ„d Pastor of the Church aÌ„d CouÌ„cells for him did our Sauiour pray that his faith should not faile he was charged to confirme his Brethren and this will be necessarie till the worlds end Generall Councells haue euer desired his Approbation his definition and sentence in the midst of the Bisshops or presented in his name to them or theirs by him approoued not els hath bene constantlie stood vnto by the Catholique Church at all tymes and no Decrees euer admitted which he reiected and refused to confirme Which Vniuersall Iudgment and Generall consent of the World together with the authoritie of the Scripture make his title so cleere that you shall neuer be able to dispossesse the present Pope of this honour or to winne future tymes to your opinion THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Of the Councells of Nice and Constance 12. BEfore I leaue this matter of the Pope aÌ„d Councells I must answere two other obiections that you make in the one you oppose the councell of Franckford to the secoÌ„d of Nice in the other the Laterane couÌ„cell to that of Constance hereby to prooue that the Church doth contradict her self and erre Touching the former two you pretend that the Councell of Franckford hath condemned the Nicene Your Proofe is taken out of the a Caroline Bookes The reason pretended is because the Nicene decred such honour to the pictures of Saincts as is due to God Of these Bookes 〈◊〉 what Beâ—â—lar doth write l. â— de Imag. â— 14. 15 I answere First that in the Councell of Franckford there is no such thing to be found Secondlie your Accusation is false for the honour due to God is not giuen to pictures in the Nicene Councell but another inferiour wherefore if at FraÌ„ckford diuine honour had ben denied to pictures yet the Councells would agree Thirdlie your proofe or witnes discredits his owne storie and ouer throwes himself for he tells vs that the Councell condemned at Franckford was held at Constantinople in Bithynia If at Constantinople how then in Bithynia Constantinople is in Thrace Nice indeede is in Bithynia See the ground quakes vnder the feete of your argument Fourthlie those Caroline bookes out of which you make this argument saie that the Councell condemned at Franckford was held without the Popes Authoritie See Baron an 794. In that of Nice the Popes Legates subscribed to euerie Acte a Allata est in medium quaestio de noua Graecorum Synodo quam de adorandis imaginibus Constantinopoli fecerunt in qua scriptum habebatur vt qui imaginibus Sanctorum ita vt deificae Trinitati seruitium aut adorationem non impenderent anathema iudicarentur Qui supra sanctissimi Patres nostri omnimodis orationem seruitutem eis impendere renuentes contempserunt atque consentieÌ„tes condemnarunt Liber Carolin in Praefat. b Definimuscum omni diligentia venerandas sanctas Imagines dedicandus in Templis sanctis Dei collocandus habendasqua Quo scilicet per hanc Imaginum pictarum inspectionem omnes qui contemplantur ad
prototyporum memariam recordasionem desiderium veniant illisque salutationem HONORARIAM ADORATIONEM exhibeant NON secundum fidem nostram VERAM LATRIAM qua solùm diuinae naturae competit Definitio Conc. Nic. 2. act 7. Legatur Epistola Concelij ad Impp. in fine eiusdem actionis To this Decree the Church in the Councell of Trent refers it self Sess 25. and saith only wee are to giue Images DEBITVM honerem venerationem leauing the further specification of this honour to be learned out of the Nicene Decree further A thing may be adored per se and per accidens and by this I leaue you to vnderstand the Schoolemen for I speake heere onely of the doctrine of the CHVRCH Poets and Rhetoricians haue their figures Must a Generall and approued Councell be condemned with such beggarlie vn-cohereÌ„t prooâ—e as this Magdeb. cent 8. c. 9. col 636. Quare contra Adriani Pontificis Legatorum eius sententiam decernunt c. The Church hath euer since the Apostles daies and then too beleeued that such a Councell cannot erre and therefore you must produce better euideÌ„ce better theÌ„ that which plaÌ„ted Christianitie if you will make her in her ould age change he Creede 19. But suppose the Franckfort Councell had condemned all kind of honour donne to Images which thing you doe further preteÌ„d but caÌ„not prooue This were nothing against the infallibilitie of Oecumenicall Councells aÌ„d Decrees For that Decree of those Bishops assembled there out of the Westerne parts had wanted the consent of other Churches in communion with the See of Rome It had wanted allso the consent of the See Apostolike without which no decree is or was euer by the Church esteemed Oecumenicall Adrian theÌ„ Pope refuted the Canoline Bookes aÌ„d maintained honoring of Images as appeares cleerly by his Booke to the Emperour yeâ— extant in the Tomeâ— of Councells 20. The Second Obiection in this kind is that two Oecumenicall decrees one made in the a Laterane Councell the other b at Constance are opposite in the matter of the Popes authoritie one will haue the Councell vnder the Pope the other ouer wheÌ„ce you inferre that the Church doth coÌ„tradict her self in beleeuing both Staie Sir not so fast the Church hath not both parts of any oppositioÌ„ in her Creede but let vs coÌ„sider the streingth of your argument If you should auouch that you sawe two lions fighting it is not sufficieÌ„t to the veritie of your relation that the things which you saw did fight or that they were Lions for if one were a Lion the other a Beare or if both were Lions but did agree and not fight your relatioÌ„ would be laughed at To make good your argument you must prooue here two things one is that these are decrees and each Oecmenicall the other that one of them in sense is contradictorie to the other Then further if you will accuse the Church you must prooue that she beleeues them both in those contradictorie senses Your labour would not be vnprofitable if you a Nâ—c illud nos moueâ—â— debet quod sanctio c. eum etiaÌ„ soluÌ„ RomanuÌ„ Pontificem pro tempore existentem tanquaÌ„ authoritaté supre omnia CoÌ„cilia habenteÌ„ conciliorum indâ—cendorum transferendoruÌ„ ac dissoluendoruÌ„ plenuÌ„ ius potestateÌ„ habere neduÌ„ ex sacrae Scripturae testimoniis dictis SaÌ„ctorum Patrum ac aliorum Romanorum Pontificum etiam Praedecessorum nostrorum sacrorumque canonum decretis sed propria etiam eorundem Conciliorum confessione manifestè constet quorum aliqua referre platuit c. Conc. Lateran sub Leone 10. sess 11 b Ispa Synodus in S. S. Congregata legitimè generale Concilium faciens Ecclesiam Catholicam militantem repraesentans potestatem a Christo immediatè habet tui quilibet cuiuscunque status vel dignitatis etiamsi Papalis existat obedire tenetur in his quae pertinent ad fidem extirpationem dicti Schismatis reformationem generalem Ecclesiae Dei in capite in membris Conc. Constant sess 4. could efficaciouslie prooue and make it euident that one of them is such a definition as you speake of and that which soeuer it be wee all will admitte and thanke you too But I must aduise you of the difficulties you are to finde herein being such as greater Schollers then I take you for haue not bene able to ouercome 21. First therfore you are to make it euident that in the Lateran Councell the Superioritie of the Pope is formallie defined and that the words wherin it is attributed vnto him or acknowledged as belonging vnto him haue the nature of a decree for a Councell defines not euerie thing which it saith Secondlie you are to make it euident reflect in whose time and where it was how things stood in France c that the Councell was Oecumenicall and that it was open and free to all Bishops in the communion of the Church Thirdlie you must make it euident that the decree of CoÌ„stance is not limitted in circumstances and that it doth not speake onelie of such a Pope as were doubtfull or in case of Heresie or Schisme but absolutelie of any whatsoeuer Fourthlie you must allso make it euident that the decree was Oecumenicall or the Generall Decree of the Church and not of one Obedience onelie other two not consenting These are some of the many and obscure difficulties which hetherto learned men haue not bene able to see thorough and therfore the truth in this Controuersie lies hidden so as neither part is cleerelie knowne for aÌ„ Oecumenicall decree or definition though you rashlie and most ignorantlie haue affirmed it of them both Which you did to make shewe of good forme in your argumeÌ„t euerie one knowing that a contradiction betwixt Oecumenicall decrees doth suppose that both parts contradicting are Oecumenicall 22. Another part of your argument is that ita is Contradiction and this part must be prooued allso and made euident before your argument recouer strength But it is so farre out your power that suppose all the rest were dissembled you could neuer be able to make it good that is to prooue and demonstrate that one is opposite or contradictorie to the other and therfore you doe most vndiscreetelie reiect the Authoritie of Generall Councells reuerenced euer by the Church and directed by Gods Spiritte out of feare or apprehension of a contradiction which in the Laterane and that of Constance you thinke you see The Scholler who reiects Aristotle or Iustinian or the Bible for euerie seeming contradiction will neuer be good Philosopher nor good Lawier nor good Deuine 23. It is manifest by the acts of the of the Councell of Constance that the decree whereon you insist was at first not made by the whole Church because of three Obediences which then were One onelie that is Iohns Obedience or partie made it the other Two not being vnited vnto them So that if you take it as proceeding from those
of it which he declares largelie in old Heretiques and the same wee see in the moderne by experience and then concludes that it is therefore verie necessarie in regard of so many windings of errour to direct the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation according to the rule of the ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense 83. This is heere sufficient for Traditions diuine and Apostolicall which the Spiritte of the Church being to leade vnto all truth doth distinguish from such as are false and superstitious and doth easilie defend against all you can say The Scripture hath not one word against them as anie man will easilie see who doth but marke what he doth reade and will not take speaking for writing which the most ignorant with attention can distinguish in them selues being able to doe the one and not the other And the Fathers are cleere as you haue seene requiring euer tradition as indeed it is required for the Scripture and for the sense though the written word be perfect within its owne bouÌ„ds You allso though you loath it neuer so much must needs admitte of it for the Scripture for the number of Canonicall bookes for the pars of them for the sense and for other things you being not able anie other way in the world to answeare anie man who would denie them or to persuade him to beleeue that you haue the word of God or anie part of it Moreouer this doctrine is by generall consent of the Church defined in the Councells of Nice and Trent and hath beene the meanes whereby the Catholique Church hath conserued vntill now the word of God and therefore the contrarie open Heresie being opposite vnto Gods expresse words which I haue put downe in the begining of this chapter and to the beleefe of the old Fathers of generall Councells and of the Church 84 The text all scripture is profitable c. is answeared in the first booke c. 4. It is profitable true but it is not all sufficient It is sufficient too in one kinde for the written word but nor in all kinds not all-sufficient Tradition and diuine Assistance are necessarie too each in their kinde doth concurre Tradition is more generall then writing it deliuers the scripture and the sense of it and can teach also without writing and did before the Scripture was extant This Tradition relieth vppon the diuine Assistance whereof I haue discoursed largelie the third booke and neede not repeate it heere Particular causes in this lower world are sufficient in their kinde a horse to generate a horse a man to generate a man but the effect is not produced without the concurrence of higher causes The Sunne and a man saith the Philosopher produce a man The inferiour and superiour causes are sufficient in their kinds and yet vnles the prime and most vniuersall cause doth concurre nothing is produced You are to prooue that the Scriture is sufficient in all kinds if you will exclude tradition To all your peaching your mouth is profitable and sufficient too in that kinde you need not two mouthes but wthout a tongue you cannot doe it Mouth and tongue are profitable and sufficient in their kindes but you cannot doe it without braines braines and witte are profitable and sufficient in their kinds but all will not serue without learning So that you see the argument is not good it is profitable and to all therefore all-sufficient 85. And thus I am come at last to the end of this part also hauing answeared the chiefest things which you oppose in the decrees of the Church and shewed how the Church representatiue is vniustlie accused of errour The Decrees of generall Councells were beleeued before Caluin had any Schoole and will be when he hath neuer a Scholler In them is the highest TEACHING AVTHORITIE in the world and therefore the Schollers of Iesus Christ must beleeue what they define The sheepe are not to choose their pasture ould wiues and plowmen are not to decide Controuersies in Religion they are not to asceÌ„d the Chaire and expound Scripture to the world No the Pastors must doe this Mat. 28. Act. 20.10.21 Ephes 4. The Apostles aÌ„d their successors were sent to teach God put Bisshops to rule the Church he charged Peeter to feede his flocke The pastors are to teach The sheepe to learne 86. In generall Councells the Pastors are are assembled their Authoritie is vnited there to moue the Whole to teach the Church The Church is to followe their common direction and therefore it belonges to Gods prouidence to assist them defining And the whole Church vniuersallie doth beleeue that such Councells are assisted and cannot erre learned vnlearned people and Pastors all beleeue it and all the Church as I shewed you before cannot erre The Apostles did beleeue it allso and so vnderstood the promise of Iesus Christ Act. 15. Io. 16. when he said that the holie Ghost should teach them all truth God rules and moues the lower world by the higher The heauens vertue doth begette and conserue things heere on earth To the heauens for the regularitie of their Motion he hath addicted an Intelligence Our Sauiour hath so disposed his Church that the Laitie are mooued and gouerned in matters of Religion by the Clergie Rom. 20. Rom. 10. The Pastors begette and conserue in the people faith by preaching the the word of God And to the Pastors for the Regularitie of their Motion he hath left an Assisting Spirit Io. 16. the Holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth The Christian truth is to be learned in the Schoole of Iesê° Christ this Schoole is the the Catholique Church The highest CHAIER in it is a Perfect Oecumenicall COVNCELL No man hath or can with any apparence pretend as will appeare in the examination a fuller participation of the TEACHING POWER then such a Councell 87. To make an end therefore coÌ„sider well what I do saie That definitioÌ„ which the Catholique Church vniuersallie Of Church proposition there is more in the third booke where I haue allso told you how the diuine authoritie aÌ„d the Church authoritie doe moue both in seuerall kinds to the same acte doth take for a sufficâ—eÌ„â— direction of her faith by way of Proposition IS FREE froÌ„ errour Otherwise the Catholique Church vniuersallie might erre which is vnpossible as I haue declared in the third booke Now the Catholique Church vniuersallie doth take the definition of the Councell which SHEE ESTEEMETH Oecumenicall to be a sufficient direction of her faith by waye of Proposition as I haue declared there also And hence it comes that the definition of a Councell ESTEEMED by the Catholique Church Oecumenicall is free froÌ„ errour Will you haue another way without recourse to such a Councell Take this What the Bisshops diffused those I meane who are in the Catholique communioÌ„ do vniformelie teach is true If you should oppose that they are many and that you cannot know the doctrine of them all being diffused I would answere that by their communion with the See Apostolique their doctrine is knowne sufficiently for this purpose aÌ„d their communion is very manifest vnto all Where you must note that it is the exteriour professioÌ„ which I atteÌ„d vnto PropositioÌ„ this is easilie knowne and this as farre as it is vniforme in ALL Bishops in the Catholique communioÌ„ be they many or few so they be all is WARRANTED by the Holie Ghost and by this exteriour proposition or commoÌ„ doctrine whatsoeuer els any of them thinke secretly in their mindes I am to be directed Ephes 4. Mat. 28.10.16 He Christ gaue Pastors that wee be not wauering Teach all Nations and behold I am with you The spirit of truth shall teach you all truth If you dispute againe meddle not with points not yet agreed vppon among vs. Talke not of things controuerted in our Schooles at this daie The proposition which you oppose if you will oppose me must be a Catholique proposition agreed on generally by the Church Other things I can dispute in our owne Schooles and with such as know them better then you doe
tymes euer since the Apostles vntill this daie it is by longe experience verie manifest Euer since Luther and Caluin did begin to spread their doctrine it hath ben demaunded and your men haue endeuoured to make answeare hauing examined to this end and purpose all Bookes and monumentes that are extant and yet after infinite inquisition noe such euidence can be found Sometymes indeed you name some men of diuers Sectes and Religions in which kind Illyricus hath laboured hard but when he cometh to the thing expected that is to prooue they were of your religion there he leaueth you wheras it is this onlie which is expected from a Scholler for euery prating fellow can affirme what he list It were not hard for an vnknowne vpstart to lay claime to a very noble Petegree and greate Dominions but without euidence he will not be admitted and beleeued It is EVIDENCE that wee looke for show the Proofe of that you say 4. Being vrged againe and againe with this you name in fine the poore Beggars of Lions of Waldo their author called Waldenses wherin you doe meerely spend tyme and cozen simple people You know that your owne men reiected their coÌ„munioÌ„ and it hath ben tould you oft Protest Apol. they agreed not with you The matters of your differeÌ„ce haue ben named and are noted in your owne authors and the thing I demanded was your proofe See Prot. Apol. trac 2. c. 2. sec 3 R. Chalced de essent prot relig lib. 2. cap. 5. your euidence where is it where is your proofe that the Waldenses who liued before Luther for of them onelie I inquire were of the Religion now curraÌ„t among you and where is the Catalogue of their Continuall SuccessioÌ„ euer since the Apostl'es time and Euidence of their Communion with Nations and of the publike profession of that Religion in all the world These things I did expect this Catalogue I must see or the demaund of continuall Succession will rest euer vnsatisfied as it hath donne hetherto 5. Those men dissented from you in the point of a Errant in eo quòd non credunt solam fidem absque operibus iustificare Lutherus in Colloq Germ. c. de Suerm Coc. t. 1. l. 8. a. 4. De imputata iustitia nihil norunt Luth. ibid. Iustification Vide R. Chal. de essen rel prot c. 6. which is the ground and foundation of ProtestaÌ„cie aÌ„d held the reall b Confess Bohem. a. 13. and Caluin saith of their Confession Formulam Confessionis amplecti quae sine discrimine in vnum fasciculum damnationis omnes in voluit qui pracisè non fatâ—ntur panem esse prasentissimè Christi corpus hic recitamus eorum verba an fas sit Christiano homini videritis nos certè non putamus Epist 244. presence in our sense wherefore they were not yours Secondly they held sundry damnable opinions which you dare not approoue as that he which is in mortall sinne Illyric in Catal. test de VVald ex Syl. Rain IteÌ„que Anto. Guid. de Wal. dogm Aeneas Sylu. Hist Bohem. Luxemb in Paup de Ludg. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Cor. 7. falleth out of all dignitie therby whether it be Ecclesiasticall or Ciuile and therfore is not to be obayed that lay men and women may eonsecrate and preach that euerie good layman is a Priest that the Apostles were lay men that clergy men should haue no possessions They condemned Mariage a manifest Heresie IudgmeÌ„t to blood aÌ„d oathes Thirdly your owne men refused their communion as you know by c Cam. de Eccl. in Bohem. c. p. 273. Camerarius d Morg. tract de Eccl. p. 79. and 124. Morgernstern e Calu. Ep. 278. Caluin f Melanc in Consilijs par 2. pag. 152. Melancthon g Schlus Catal. tom 3. p. 188. And see Iewell Pantaleon and Osiander of the Albigenses cited prot Apol. Sec. cit Schlusselburg and others and charge them with maintayning obstinately grosse errours and Heresie Fourthly they had no Hierarchie hauing amongst them no Bishops Fox acts moÌ„ p. 628. Sim. VoyoÌ„ Cata. p. 132 Osiand Epitom and their owne tenet suprà nor Priests but al being lay people and therefore could not be the Church of God Fiftly Waldo a Marchant of Lions and an vnlerned lay man who liued an 1170. was the first and chiefe of that Sect so that they failed in the point of Antiquitie and Continuall Succession euer since the Apostles which is the thing whereunto you were to answere And will neuer doe till you putte downe some in euery age and bring vnquestionable Euidence for them which will neuer be 6. If notwithstanding the coÌ„trarie iudgmeÌ„t of your men you will ioyne to their Church and maintaine the Succession of your Church by them Heb. 5. v. 4. Rom. 10. v. 15. Confess Bohem. a. 13. Caluinianos VValdensiuÌ„ CoÌ„fessionem dâ—prauasse ostendit Conrad Schlussel Theol. Calu. li. 2. art 6. who could not ordaine you Priests and Bishops hauing themselues none nor teach being theÌ„selues vnsent you must prooue cleerele first that they had lawfull vocation and ordination Secondly that they held not the forsaid errours and Heresies or you must admitte that you hold them also Thirdly that they did agree with you in all other points particularly descending to each As in the manner of the reall presence the Bohemian Confession doth say they did not but that they vnderstood the words properly as wee doe Luth. supra cit R. Chalc. sup cit Haud scio an vsquam diu publicè suam fidem sint prosessi c. praeterquam in Bohemia in quadam valle in radicibus AlpiuÌ„ Illyr de VValdens suprà Epiphan haeres 61. August haeresi 40. that they held iustification by faith as you Luther saith they knew it not yet this is the sowle and foundation of Protestancie in the iudgment and by the confession of your owne men And so you must on to the rest where you will find many of your owne who will coÌ„tradict you to your face Fourthly you must bring proofe that those men were in the world before Waldo and that of them there was a continuall succession euer since the daies of the Apostles I speake not of those Heretikes called Apostolici wherof S. Epiphanius and S. Augustine speake though they coÌ„demned also mariage and hauing of possessions and therefore held in part the forenamed heresies that is two of them but I speake of the VValdenses I demaund good proofe and euidence that such men were existent in the world euer since Christ ascended And I will not accompt it satisfaction if you tell me they saie so for I beleeue neither them nor you but demaund proofe Bring foorth your monumentes and read vs the names of their Bishops or some of them at least for there were such among them if theires were the Church Act. 20 2â— Ephes 4.11.13 Eph. 4.12 since Gods Church is gouerned by Bishopes there were
Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.
in blisse S. Th. Aq. in 4. d. 21. q. 1. a. 1. q. 1. ad 1. S. Thomas doth distinguish working in way of merite from suffering in way of purgation and graunts that such as are deade in our lord are in securitie of their saluation and therefore happie and do rest from the laboure of merit that labour is past they did many good works in their lyfe tyme and those follow them they neede no more Ob. Phil. 3. 12. Aus ibi v. 15. But some of them neede purging and therefore they may suffer and be punished The soule departing out of this world and going to the Tribunal of Gods iustice is attended by her works and according to them receaues her sentēce Wee must all be manifested before the iudgment seate of Christ that euery one may receaue the proper things of the body ◠Cor. 5.10 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 3 v. 13.14.15 The forme of the last iudgment you haue Mat 20. v. 31.32 c. consider the respect it hath there to VVorks Lut. 22.25 according as he hath donne either good or euil The worke of euery one shall be manifest for the day of our lord will declare because it shall be reuealed in Fire and the worke of euery one what kind it is the Fire shall try If any mās worke abide which he built there vppon on the foundation Christ he shall receaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reward If any mans worke burne he shall suffer Detriment but himselfe shall be saued yet so as by fire 38. The fourth The kings of the gentiles ouer rule them but you not so cited against our doctrine of the Primacie I Answ First the Primacie was not then instituted Io. 21.18 but afterwards and therefore if our Sauiour had said that none was first at that tyme it were not against vs. Secondly if you presse the words they will make for vs and against you they wil prooue one greater then the rest v 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that is the greater among you let him become as the yonger and he that is leader as the waiter Which precept doth suppose a greater and a leader among them Thirdlie the sense you make would take Bisshops allso from the Church for of them the Scripture saith likewise that they must not ouer rule the Clergie 1. Pet. 5.3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 20.28 and the word in Greeke is the same with that whereby S. Matth. doth expresse the ruling which you do vrge and yet you know that the holie Ghost hath placed Bysshops to rule the Church Fourthlie our Sauiour doth not say that among the Apostles none shall be Superiour but he saith onelie that it must not be so amonge them in matter of gouerment and subiection as it is amonge the heathen Princes and this wee graunt Those Princes ordinarily domineere imperiouslie and regard not so much the good of their subiects as their owne priuate ends This doth not consist with Christian discipline and is here forbidden Lastlie the Greeke text of S. Mathew doth take away all apparence of doubt in this point Mat. 20.25.26 the words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Princes of the Gentiles domineere ouer them and ouerrule them and they that are the greater exercise power against thē It shall not be so among you You know the power of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is here twise vsed turne your lexicon and reade there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dominium exerceo aduersus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dominantur aduersus eos do beare rule against them put then all together ād you will be ashamed of your owne argument 39. The fift 1. Tim. 3 2◠brought for mariage of Priests It behoueth a Bysshop to be the husband of one wife Answ Is the meaning thinke you a Bysshop of necessitie must haue a wife or he that hath or hath had more then one is not fit to be made Bysshop If you will haue the first to be the sense you are contrarie not onely to the practise of our Church and of the Apostles but allso to your owne fellowes and are a Religion by your selfe If you thinke the second be the sense it makes nothing against vs S. Ierom. Chrysost Oecumen Theoph. wee make none Bisshops that are bigami that haue had more wiues then one such mē are not fit for so sacred an office There is indeed a controuersie betwixt vs and you Vide Cocc t. 2. l. 8. art 6. 7. Whether it be lawfull for a Priest or Bysshop to take a wife You affirme wee denie it And the Apostle doth not contradict vs he doth not say it is lawfull for a Bysshop to take a wife wich was to be showne in Scripture 1. Tim. 4.3 40. The sixt Some in the laste tymes shall come commanding or persuading to abstaine from meates which God created to receaue with thanks giuing Answ There were men to come that would forbid to eate meats esteeming them vncleane Epiphan haeres 66. Aug. haeres 46. and created or made by an ill cause such were the Manichees who did hold there were two prime causes one good the other bad both eternall both Gods And flesh they said the bad God created Aug. l. 30. con Faust c. 5. 6. The Apostle speaketh of these men as S. Augustine and others well obserue and it is manifest by the reason in the text whereby the Apostle doth impugne the foresaid men for saith he euery creature of God is good v. 4. Which proposition is euident in it selfe and opposite directlie to the ground of the foresaid Heretiques But this doth nothīg concerne vs who do abstaine some tymes by the example of our Sauiour and by the command of our Mother the Church Vide Coc◠tom 2. lib. 3. a. 8. 9. 10. not for that reason of the Manichees but for other good ends 41. The seuenth Rom. 1◠◠let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but from God Answ wee teach the same as you see by all our commentaries vppon this place But what your Master Caluin thinks of the busines the world knowes I referre you to the Preface of the Protestants Apologie to Monarchomachia c. 42. Apoc. 17.18 There is an other out of the Apocalyps to prooue the Pope Antichrist The wordes are the woman which thou sawest is the greate cittie which hath king done ouer the kings of the earth Answ The mysterie heere spoken of is so profound and darke that you can finde no bottom to build vppon But to endeuour vppon those Hills whereon the womā sittes be they mysticall v. 9. all one with the Heades and Kings or materiall to raise a Fort to batter the See of Sainct Peeter erected and established by Iesus Christ is Antichristian The Cittie some interprete mystically thinking it to be the confused multitude of the Wicked which is the Cittie
by diuine Reuelation that he is in the Church euer teaching all Truth as I haue declared at large and I haue declared also which is the Church of God but wee haue no diuine Reuelation that he is in N. N. in Iohn Caluin Yea wee knowe he is not in him because he contradicts the Spirit in the Church this Church the Fathers had instruction to the iudgment of this communitie the greatest iudgments did euer stoupe Their practise doth so demonstrate Their books for them confesse it still And this is our practise allso this is our resolution wee confesse it wee professe it wee rest in the iudgment of Gods Spirit in the Catholique Church and to this Tribunall be you neuer so vnwilling you must allso come as I haue declared in this booke and here all * Cōtrouersie must be determined Wee doe not flie the Scripture wee haue it wee haue the Reuerence of Antiquitie on our side and reason pleads for vs but here the cause is ended When you do question the reall presence iustification by woorks S. Peeters primacie and alleage Scripture wee do likewise alleage Scripture and so pregnant that you cannot reallie answeare and then alonge wee goe to be iudged by the diuine spirit in the Church where wee are certaine he is and teacheth all truth When you say this or that booke is not Scripture this was or was not receaued in the primitiue Church the sēse of the letter is this or that Wee examine all and then appeale to to the Spirit in the Church where wee are sure he is suggesting all whatsoeuer the Sonne of God hath reuealed and taught to be receaued and beleeued of men When you pretēd that our doctrine is against reason against holy Fathers against Antiquitie wee produce testimonies of auncient Fathers and reason for our side and then submit the cause to the Spirit in the Church which looking on all truth can iudge best what is most conformable to reason to the Fathers to all Antiquitie And when you say that the Councells contradict one another that there are contradictions in the Scripture Wee are satisfied in these points allso by the Spirit in Church as being the highest Iudge of all cōtrouersies of infinite vnderstanding and no lesse infinite veracitie So that all particular Controuersies do runne into this generall Principle to be resolued and this Principle wee haue in plaine termes from the mouth of God THE FIFT CHAPTER Wherein some exceptions are answeared 82. THe obiections which you and your fellowes make are partlie against the infallibilitie of the Catholique Church in it selfe and partlie against the infallibilitie of generall Councells where Bisshops are assembled out of all Countries to determine commonlie by diuine assistance what belongs to faith and what is cōtrarie therevnto Of this second part it being not the whole Church formallie in it selfe whereof I haue intreated hetherto but the whole in representation onelie as deuines tearme it I will speake a word or two hereafter And will answeare that heere which you bring against the first which is the matter wee haue in hand You are to shewe not that some particular man or some part of the Church might fall of and leaue to be part of the Catholique not-erring Church for that wee see cleerelie in your masters Luther Caluin and others which once were Catholiques ād in the Church of Englād which was in the communion of the Church for a thousand yeeres together and by that communiō Catholique as being then part of Gods Church And is now fallen into schisme and Heresie but you must proue that the Catholique Church may erre in faith or to vse your owne termes that all the Church of God may be in errour affirming and beleeuing contrarie to that which is true in faith 83. And first I obserue that if you did vnderstand your owne principles you would dispaire of the successe of your owne arguments because by those principles of yours all that you can say may iustlie be contemned This I demonstrate for you will either prooue this doctrine of the Churches infallibilitie in the sense wherein wee defend it to be an errour fundamentall or to be some other errour not fundamentall The first you cannot pretend without contradicting your selfe presentlie for you saie allso that the Church cannot erre in fundamentalls and that ours in fundamētalls doth not erre granting withall when you are well vrged that ours is the Church and if you should start backe and denie it againe you will finde it vnder double proofe in another place The Second you cannot as much as pretend to prooue and demonstrate in your principles because according to thē you can take no meanes whereof you are certaine not reason for all men may erre in obscure matters nor Fathers for in your principles all might erre nor place of Scripture for you haue no meanes to knowe certainlie that it is the word of God the place not being one of your fundamentalles nor the Spirit because in not fundamentalls he assisteth not as you say and maintaine in this question or if he doth assist in this verie matter whether you call it fundamentall or not fundamentall he doth assist the Church for to the Church is the promise made 84. Thus you very wiselie haue ouer reached your selfe and left your selfe no meanes to prooue any thing against vs either in this controuersie or in any other for fundamentallie you confesse wee haue not erred and in other things by your owne principles you are not certaine Yet to gull the people you bringe texts not fundamentall according to your distinction and cry out Scripture Scripture the Gospell the word of God And if you finde a place in S. Augustine which neither your parishioners nor your selfe doe vnderstand you challenge vs to the Fathers whereas in your conscience you beleeue for certaine neither Fathers nor scripture but onelie some places which you call fundamentall neither do you acknowledge anie meanes in the world either from God or man to be sure of things not fundamentall as you tearme them as I haue shewed before and the same these your protestant arguments which followe would faine prooue 85. The first argument to this end is made against the Church in the state of the old lawe before the cōming of the Messias and therfore is nothing to the purpose because wee speake of the Christian Church as it is established by Iesus Christ and gouerned by his Spirit which Church is not limited vnto one Nation onelie but ouer all the world and therefore Catholique and of this I haue proued and wee do beleeue that in faith it is infallible Notwithstanding to maintaine the infallibilitie of the Iewish Church too before the Messias came which is an other questiō I resolue your doubt made against it You say the people of Israel did adore the brazen calfe therefore the Church all did erre You should haue prooued that all did adore the calfe that Moyses and the Leuites
in the Primitiue Church neither be they all saincts at this day Many are called fewe chosen Good ād bad are mingled here The spouse is blacke ād faire In the Churches decrees there is no errour against faith no rule against manners Her rule is irreprehensible being the rule of Christianitie And when any thing is amisse in mens cariage or behauiour towards God or man she doth admonish and punish as occasion requires Hence haue come all those decrees of reformation made in Councells generall and particular which you haue seene more then once In an infinite number to haue some disorders is incident and wee were foretould that scandalls should be Mat. 18. But consider further that this Church hath an infinite cōpanie of holie men likewise and that all which arriue to glorie shall haue liued in this Church Apoc. 7. and those of all tribes tongues and Nations For this very Church though not according to all the materiall parts shall triumphe as I haue said in an other place and in state of triumphe shall be all faire and all ouer without spot she shall be without actuall or originall or veniall sinne when she comes with open eies to looke the prime veritie in the face and to embrace the diuine goodnes with all the latitude of her soule THE SIXT CHAPTER Of the Protestant multiplication of Churches by visible and inuisible 68. IN this place before I conclude I haue a word more to say about your distinction of visible and inuisible I thought once to make it a Chapter in the first booke one of your greate leaps when you are pursued ending in it From Luthers Schoole you skip into Waldoes from thence you thrust your selues on vs from vs to the Church primitiue and from the primitiue Church you get quite out of the eies of the whole world and betake your selues to Inuisibilitie In regard I there pursued you I thought I say to speake allso of the distinction there But the thinge will be more easie now because in many places as occasions were offered I haue discoused of the * He that desires to see more of the Visibilitie of the Church shall find it exactly handled and the Protestant euasions all cleerely refuted by L. my of Chalc. in his booke de auctorae essentia Protestantica Ecclesia l. 2. c. 6. seqq Visibilitie of Gods Church The Church of Gods is one and visible as the Scripture doth witnes Yet you with two words visible and inuisible haue made a distinction to rend it into two and do maintaine stoutlie that God hath two Churches one inuisible consisting of predestinate persons onelie The other visible which doth exteriorlie professe the faith 99. The whole companie of the faith full may be deuided into two parts by God allmightie the one part is predestinate the other part is the companie of those which are not predestinate By this the whole is sufficientlie deuided for euerie man in the companie belongs to one part or member of the diuision and no man belongs to both For you cannot affirme two contradictories of the same as to say Peeter is predestinated and Peeter is not predestinated This being so I demaund now which of these companies is visible and which inuisible And what makes the one to be so rather then the other If predestination make men inuisible whie doth not reprobation make men inuisible since reprobation is a secret as hard to knowe If profession of the faith make the reprobate visible whie can not profession make the predestinate men visible And if these companies be together mingled why are they not both visible or both inuisible or rather whie is not the whole companie visible by reason of the profession and communion though Gods disposition towards this and that man in particular be inuisible and secret 100. Wee beleeue that the whole companie of Catholiques is the Church as I haue declared larglie heretofore Wee beleeue that the predestinate are in this companie that they die all of them in the communion of the Church and that here they professe their faith This I will declare brieflie and then I will be so bould as to demand some questions touching your inuisible congregatiō for looke on it I may not because it is not to be seene 101. First therefore if the thing be well considered it is manifest that the predestinate doe professe their faith and thereby do manifest themselues to be the seruants of Iesus Christ and this allso our Sauiour Christ requireth of his seruants Matth. 10.32.33 euery one that shall confesse me before men I allso will confesse him before my father but he that shall denie me before men I will denie him before my father which is in heauen Euerie one that confesseth me before men the sonne of man allso will confesse him before the Angells of God Luke 12. v. 8.9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the Angells of God Herevpon the Martyrs of Iesus Christ which haue bene at all tymes and whereof all Christian Nations haue yeelded store haue openlie in the face of persecution made profession of their faith and thereby they were visible and being Martyrs were allso members of the predestinated Church they were predestinate The predestinate therefore and the visible professors of the faith may be in one and the same Church yea the same man may be predestinate and allso visiblie professe the faith 102. Secondlie it is manifest that the Apostles were visible professors of the faith and therefore members of the visible Church of God and they were allso predestinate and therefore mēbers of the predestinate Church The same men therefore may be visible and predestinate The same Church may be visible and predestinate and consequentlie visibilitie and predestinatiō deuide not the Church into two Churches As I said of the Apostles and Martyrs so I say of the holie Doctors of the Church they did preach and teach visiblie they were knowne farre and neere and were ptedestinate allso whereby it is manifest that the predestinate did professe their faith the same faith with other Catholiques with others in their communion and were visible 103. Thirdlie the Apostolique Church is visible it includes essentiallie publique persons As Apostles and their Successors Apostolicall men for conuersion of Nations Bisshops Pastors Doctors as you knowe by Scripture Now these publike persons are manifestlie visible Pastors to their flocke Bisshops to their Diocese Apostles and Apostolicall men to the Nations they conuert The Apostolicall Chutch therefore is visible And you knowe further that the holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church are one and the same for so it is in the Creede I beleeue one holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church Symb. Cōstant and this Creede you professe that you beleeue ād you put it allso amonge the fundamentalls of your faith The Catholik therefore and holy Church is visible 104. Fourthlie if the Church be the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ and
it hath beene so farre from this that for a thousand yeares together there was a deepe sileÌ„ce in the world and no Protestant sermon heard yea Luther did verie earnestlie listen after such a sermon Luth. de Missa prâ—uata ton 7. but his learned eares could heare none saue onelie from the diuell one and that indeed he hath registred in his writings 115. Hauing entred into the consideration of your inuisible Church I will be bould to looke about me where are your Superintendents how do they exercise their office without being seene Your Ministers of this Church who creates them and how is euerie one a minister or some sheepe and some pastors how do you knowe the pastors from the sheepe the ministers from other men are all Apostles 1. Cor. 12. v. 28.29 are all prophets are all Doctors are all miracles haue all the grace of cures do all speake with toÌ„gues do all interprete who do who doe not how may one knowe how do you knowe v. 27. S. Paul saith some verily God hath set in the Church first Apostles secondlie Prophets thirdlie Doctors next miracles then the graces of doing cures helpes gouerments kinds of tongues Are these things in the inuisible Church and if they be not there how is it the Catholique Church are there tongues in that deepe silence is there gouerment in that confusion are there helpes and cures where no man seeth anothers wants and miseries miracles and none wonder Doctors and no Schollers Prophets and Apostles and no preaching of the word Where are the pulpits where are your communion tables how are the collectioÌ„s made do you meete onelie in the night or in the daie or not at all what calles you together if you meete a signe that may be seene a sound that might be heard and you might be found which is against the nature of a Church inuisible Your assemblies for a thousand yeares together how were they made and where or did none preach all that tyme did no Bisshops gouerne did all beleeue and so long and so ordinarily without preachers how could that be how could your people inuocate in whom they beleeued not how could they beleeue whom they heard not and how could they heare without a preacher Answere for your Church and teach S. Paul something which he knewe not If you admit gouermeÌ„t aÌ„d instruction and order in that Church you grant it to be visible for these things are visible If you denie them you cannot shewe how those your imagined predecessors had any faith and were a Church militant So that you puzzle your owne selfe in this busines and are ouer come without an aduersarie 116. I note it therfore for a particular weakenes in your braine that determining to feine a Church of predecessors you had not so much wit as to inuent a thinge which did not infold a contradiction in it selfe as this doth for being inuisible it hath no preachers for preachers are visible things now where there are no preachers there is no faith where there is no faith there is no Church the Church being a Congregation or Societie of faithfull people therefore in making a Church inuisible you make the same thinge to be a Church and no Church Againe there are no Saincts where there is no sanctitie there is no sanctitie where there is no faith no faith where there is no preaching no preaching where the is no mission Rom. 10.15 no mission where there is no gouerment no gouerment where there are no gouerners And in an inuisible coÌ„panie there are no gouerners therefore froÌ„ the first to the last there are in it no Saincts Notwithstanding it hath nothing else you say but Saincts So that it hath people in it it is a Societie of Saincts if wee beleeue you and yet hath not a Sainct in it which is another contradiction 117. Moreouer this Church of yours hath preached continuallie Protestantisme in all Nations because in all Nations you haue had Saincts if your imagination be admitted and sanctitie is grounded in faith He that â—hall be ashamed of â—â—me and of my words him the sonne of man shall be ashamed of When he â—hall come â—n his Maâ—esty Luke 9. â—6 faith gotten by hearing as I said before yet all this tyme she hath not spoken but was ashamed of her owne faith Now how these two hange together do you iudge If you thinke I doe you wronge in accusing your Church of silence take in hand againe the Argument of the first booke produce euidence of anie one man yours or ours frind or foe ChristiaÌ„ Turke or Athiest that euer heard a Protestant speake in any place of all the world a rome wide ynough in any part of fifteene hundred yeeres before Luther a tyme longe inough or euer since the begining of the world if you would haue a longer space and though this will not serue for a Church of all NatioÌ„s yet will it shewe that you know something more then all your fellowes and that you haue profited a little since you wrotte last As for the credibilitie of your deuice they will beleeue yet another Gospell on your bare word against all the euidence in the world that beleeue this conceipt of yours and euerie yonge Logician that hath heard his master talke of Chimeraes can make as good and ground them as solidlie as you doe for euerie child knoweth that the Church militant is a Societie of men seruing God which men are not meere Spirits but things visible the Societie of theÌ„ allso is a thing visible teaching baptizing ruling conuerting Nations confuting Heresies are visible acts In nullum nomeÌ„ Religionis seu verum seu falsum coagulari homines possunt nisi aliquo signaculorum vel Sacramentorum visibilium consortio colligeÌ„tur S. Aug. li. 19. cont Faust c. 11. and acts of the Church of God Man oweth vnto God visible acts of worshippe and not inuisible only praise sacrifice Sacraments are visible things the word of God is visible yea God comming to raise this Church did exhibite himself heere visible God himself was seene with mens eies as I told you in the second booke and if you be a Christian you beleeue it The Church which you speake of being inuisible can be no Societie and therefore no Church And as it is no Church but a Chimericall non ens so the acts of it proportionablie be negatiue it hath conuerted no Nations it hath confuted no Heresies it hath brought vp no Saincts Before Luther it was in no place it administred no Sacraments it made no Sermons It had no conscience no mouth no face 118. Vnworthie therefore is this fiction of yours to be compared to the Church of God these imaginarie Saints of yours to the Saints of Allmightie God these dombe preachers to the Apostles of Iesus Christ and their Successors this vnsociable societie not daring to appeare or whisper a fore men for many huÌ„dred yeeres to that Church which hath
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her
is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth