Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	bishop_n	congregation_n	presbyter_n	2,969	5	10.0660	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93642	Groanes for liberty· Presented from the Presbyterian (formerly non-conforming) brethren, reputed the ablest and most learned among them, in some treatises called Smectymnuus, to the high and Honorable Court of Parliament in the yeare 1641, by reason of the prelates tyranny. Now awakened and presented to themselves in the behalf of their now non-conforming brethren. With a beam of light, discovering a way to peace. Also some quæres for the better understanding of Mr Edwards last book called Gangræna. With a parallel betweene the prelacy and presbytery. / By Iohn Saltmarsh preacher of the Gospel.	Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647.; Smectymnuus.	1646 (1646)	Wing S489; Thomason E327_20; ESTC R200661	20,628	47

of forefathers condemned by their children yet afterwards taken up the fathers eate sowre grapes and the childrens teeth are set on edge 8. Things that even offend Anabaptists are to be removed It is under carefull hands and hearts more mercifull viz. the Parliament then this Remonstrant is to remit troubled consciences to no better cure then Mr. Fishers book who we hope will do by those as the Helvetians did by some things that were stumbled at amongst them though there were none but Anabaptists that stumbled at them yet the State did by Authority remove them and Zuinglius their professed adversary gives them thanks for occasioning the removall Quaere 1. Why may not the Brethren look for better cure to their troubled consciences from the State now then from some of their brethren because the hands and hearts of the State have appeared more carefull more mercifull then some of them the Priests and Levites walke by while the good Samaritans comfort the wounded 2. If the State of the Helvetians would not offend the very Anabaptists but remove the scandall why should any State now be set on and inflamed not only to offend but persecute them nor onely Anabaptists as they are called but all other their Brethren that dissent If States are commended then for being so tender why are they preached now into severity wrath revenge and tender troubled consciences made the onely trouble 9. Rigour makes Separatists But we thinke nay we know that some few Prelates by their over-rigorous pressing have made more Separatists then all the Preachers dis-affected to Ceremonies in England Quaere 1. If it hath appeared formerly that rigorous imposings have occasioned Separation why doe they now cry out of so many Separatists and not look up to themselves Why do they beat their fellow-servants out of doors and then cry out of their running away 2. Why is not persecution and imposing more forborn by the Brethren now when they have found it the cause of their own Separation formerly 3. Why do they cry out of Separatists when they see Separatists have not so much made themselves so as they have been made so by others and they have been rather driven away then they have drawn away themselves why do they cry out of of Separation when they force them into corners first if they would have the communion of their Brethren more why make they not their persecution lesse and their offences in worship and government lesse 10. Burthens to Churches to be removed In the mean we blesse God who hath put into the hearts of others into whose hands he hath concredited the work to judge more wisely and consider more mercifully and to professe in the hearing of some of us they would willingly part with that which was indifferent to themselves if they were but truly informed it was offensive to others according to that of Gregory those customes which are known to bring any burthens upon the Churches it becomes us to consider of the remooving of them Quaere Why may not the State to be petitioned by their people now of tender Consciences to the same temper of tendernesle and mercy to them that the Brethren then desired for themselves whether are those good neighbours that would have it raine onely in their owne Gardens and the Sun to shine only on their owne blossomes and have peace only in their own dwellings and their neighbour Townes running with blood 2. Were the times of non-conformists then times only for removing burdens from Churches and the times of non-conformists now times of burdening Churches 11 Mens devices ought not to hinder preaching This is just as our Bishops were wont to doe who give a full power to a Presbyter at his Ordination to preach the Gospel with a charge to do it yet will not suffer him to preach no not in his owne cure without a License Quaere 1. When any then was gifted and called to preach the Gospel and Licences were complained on to hinder why are there any other wayes devised against the liberty of the Gospel now as uniformity c. 2. Were Licenses chaines and fetters to the glorious and free spirit and are Interrogatories and Questions at times of Ordination and admission about Anti-Paedo-Baptisme Antinomianism now no restraints nor devices to the same purpose is this to rejoyce that Christ is preached howsoever nay is not this to forbid him because he followes not with us 12. Mens inventions to set up jus Divinum to advance government They that have studied to advance the Babel of Episcopacy have endeavoured to underpin it with some Texts of Scripture that they might plead a jus divinum for it Quaere 1 Was it unlawfull and politick in some to underpinne Episcopacy with some Texts of Scriptures and so to get up a jus divinum for it and is it not as unlawfull to set up another Form that is not purely of God underpinned with Texts of Scripture for a jus divinum or divine right as some would have had it 13 Oath ex Officio an unlawfull engine We desire to see further how abominable this Oath is how cryed downe by learned men how contrary to the word of God the law of nature to the Civill and Canon lawes and to the Statutes of our Kingdome he may finde in Mr Parker Quaere Was it so contrary to the word of God to all Civill and Common Lawes and the Law of our own Kingdom to extort from men Conscience secrets then of what kinde are all Formes of poseing examining interrogating to finde out the opinions of those who are to preach in any Congregation 14 When Presbyters grow as tyrannous as Bishops they are to suffer But if the Presbyters should be as generally corrupted as Bishops now are have as much strength to suppresse the Gospel and promote Popery as the Bishops by their supreame power have and if they can bring no more evidence of divine institution then Bishops can and are of no more necessity to the Church then Bishops are let the Function suffer Quaere May not that very thing be more justly feared and presumed by us now from some late experiments of them viz. that the Presbyters may grow strong to suppresse the Gospell and tyrannous c. and may be corrupted as Bishops formerly as well as they might prophesy this of themselves Caiaphas thought as little of Christ when hee said one should die for the people as some Presbyters thought of suppressing the Gospell themselves and suffering for it when they wrote thus against Bishops and Presbyters 15 Change of words in Religion an ill signe We finde that the late Innovators which have so much disturbed the peace and purity of our Church did first begin with alteration of words and the Apostle exhorts us to hold fast the forme of sound words 2 Tim. 1. 13. and to avoyd profane novelties of words Quaere If the change of words be so dangerous and

am sure above the crime of the Remonstrant Non-conforming Brethren who are unsetled in points of a meane difference which there usual language knowes by no better terme then Schimaticks and factious yet even such as have fallen under the heaviest censures of Excommunication deprivation suspension c. Quaere 1. Why was it such a crime to count any Schismaticks and factious under Prelacy and why is it now under Presbytery matter of just report against others 2. If Excommunications Deprivations suspensions c. were esteemed so burdensome and cruell then why are Fines Penalties and Imprisonments so much preached for now why doe not the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way think it as hard for the Magistrates to afflict their Brethren as they thought it hard in the Prelates to afflict themselves 26 No Presbyters to be Ambitious Neither in any of his writings the least intimation of superiority of one Presbyter over another save only where he names Diotrephes as one ambitiously affecting such Supremacy Quaere If none but such as Diotrephes is observed in Scripture for affecting Supremacy and Superioricy and if one Presbyter cannot be found affecting place above other Presbyters in opposition to Bishops then how is it cleared that a Presbytery may be supream to a whole Church or Congregation and that it is not as much Superiority for some few Presbyters to affect being above many Saints together in one Church as for one in name or office as a Bishop to affect place above another in name or office as a Presbyter and so Episcopacy be as warrantable as Presbytery and both alike unwarrantable A BEAM of LIGHT TO Discover a way to the peace both of CHURCH and STATE By way of Considerations Consid. 1. LEt it first be considered where the great obstructions lie against Liberty or Teleration of Brethren of severall wayes and if it may not be found to be in these things 1 A taking the whole kingdom of England for the Church of England and so setting up the Nationall Magistracy of Israel in the Nation now as it was then which how it may be warranted would be well considered 2 A jealousie how to preserve the present Ecclesiasticall Interest without the choicest power of the Magistrate to help it which if well observed makes it appeare to bee lesse of God and more of man 3 An interpretation of these Gospell Scriptures which concern Magistracy Rom. 13. 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 13 14. which I humbly conceive to be so farre as concerns any good or evill either of the Law of Nature or Nations into a good or evill purely spirituall and of meere revelation in the Gospel as things of Gospell light and mystery and notions of Heresy and Schism are this latitude of Interpretation of the generall Rules in the Gospell concerning Magistracy into all particulars of Truth and Heresie is of high consideration Consid. 2. Let it be considered how the kingdom of England may be called the Church taking in all the Northern parts the Western parts the whole Nation generally to the very walls of London with Mr Marshalls Testimony that many thousands nay thousands of thousands which accordingly reckoned takes up almost the greatest part of the Kingdom not knowing their right hand from their left in the very principles of the doctrine of Christ And saith Mr Marshall no Land can be esteemed Christs Kingdome where the preaching of the word is not established is any Countrey esteemed a part of a Princes dominion that is not ruled by his lawes Consid. 3. Let it be considered then seeing the kingdome of England is not a Church but in the generall a Nation baptized into they know not what at first and beleeving generally they knew not in whom ever since as Mr Marshall whether there may not be a free peaceable cohabitation of the people together viz. of those called Presbyteriall Independent Anabaptists enjoying their severall wayes of practice in things of outward cognizance and order as Baptism Church Order c. in all peaceable demeanure and godlinesse as well in this sp●rituall variety as so many Corporations Counties Divisions Armies and severall Companies in that their civill variety and yet in all a civill comelinesse peace and unity Consid. 4. Let it be considered whether the Civill power in such a Gospell mystery as Presbytery is and the way of Baptism is and the way of Independency is may not with more lawfulnesse lesse hazard of sinne and safety keep off or suspend his engagements from all sides seeing there lies Gospell strength and Arguments on all sides and walk only according to those generall Rules the Gospell hath layd him down in Rom. 13. 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 13 14 not daring to draw himselfe to revenge any misbeleefe of particular Scripture mysteries forcing either side either for Presbytery Inde endency or Baptism which the Gospell hath no where warranted him in speciall or in any clear consequence to do but such as the present prevayling Brethren draw out from the Iudiciall Law of Moses to help and from these generall Gospell Rules which can bring forth but an opinionative Iustice as their Arguments an opinionative Truth or Presbytery and whether the Magistrate ought not to demand a more clear and equitable Rule in things of Spirituall cognizance I humbly present to be considered Whether there ought not to bee a certaine Rule for a certaine Iustice so if there should ever bee a proceeding to Fines Imprisonment Banishment the Divines can administer no more certain grounds for the Magistrates conscience then such as they have for their own which are but probable controvertible doubtfull as the Arguments on all sides will make appear Consid. 5. Let it be considered whether it hath not been one of the Nationall sinnes viz. Making Lawes against all other Forms but what it did establish it selfe Nationally by which experience hath told us how Gospell Truths have been kept out whole Generations Popish States kept out Protestantism and Prelacy kept out Presbytery and whether Presbytery proceeding on the same ground is not in the same danger of sin and of keeping out other Truthes and whether upon this ground any Gospell Revelation or Light of which there shall bee an Encreasing every day as Mr Case himselfe preached ever shall come into this Nation but of the Nationall size and temper and we know that is not often the Gospell way the Lord hath chosen the weak things and base things 6. Consideration Let it be considered whether part of the great Mystery of Iniquity be not that of drawing in the strength of the Nations the Princes of the earth to support the Ecclesiasticall or Church glory and let this be sadly considered did not Popery get in the Kingdoms of the world to support it selfe ●id not Prelacy stand by the same power Doth not Presbytery hold it selfe by the same strength of Magistrates Are not the same Iron rods and scourges of steel

Vnwholsome Formes and so condemned before why are unwarrantable words taken up again as Classicall Provinciall Nationall Triers Directories which are no more formes of wholsome nor Scripture words 16 Reproaches no Arguments If confident slightings and scornfull denials be sufficient answers to us and our arguments never any man hath better defended Episcopacy or more strongly confuted those that oppose it Quaere If confident sleightings c. were counted no sufficient answers from the Prelates to the Presbyters why are Presbyters sleightings counted so sufficient arguments for their Dissenting Brethren now and if to raile be to reason and to revile be to refute Mr. Edwards and some of his brethren have as strongly confuted us as the Prelates did formerly them 17. Prelates impropriate Orthodox In impropriating to the same party the praise of Orthodox as if to speak a word or thinke a thought against them were no lesse heresie then it was in former times to speak against the Popes Supremacy or the Monks fat belly Quaere 1. If it were so ill taken by the Presbyters then that the Prelates impropriated the name Orthodox how may it be taken now by all the rest who are cast out as Hereticks and Schismaticks while they walke abroad cloathed only in the name of Orthodox Divines 2. If the Popes Supremacy and the Monks fat belly and the Prelates could not bear a word nor a thought against them are not some Divines working for a supremacy and a revenew against which it may prove as great a crime to speake 18. All not of their opinion are factious Sure the man thinks he hath obtained a Monopoly of Learning and all Knowledge is lockt up in his bosome and not only Knowlege but Piety and peaceableness too for all that are not of his opinion must suffer either as weake or factious if he may be their judge Quaere 1. Whether do not they who hold all other in Schisme and Heresie and a company of Mechanicks who conforme not to them conceive they have the Monopoly of learning as once the Prelates did and who are these now 2. Whether do not they who look on their Brethren that dissent as Troublers Factious Schismaticall conceive all Piety and peaceablenesse to be lockt up in their own bosomes and who are they and who are the weak and factious if they may be judges 19 Prelates pathes causes of divisions It is no wonder considering the pathes our Prelates have trod that there are divisions in the Nation the wonder is the Divisions are no more no greater Quaere If the usurpation Tyranny Persecution of the Prelates were reckoned for the supreame division-makers in the Kingdome when the Non-conformists were the only Separatists Why doe they not finde out some other or such like cause now in some other place rather then amongst their dissenting Brethren themselves whom they now only accuse of division and faction but this is the difference of being Parties and Judges we naturally spie out faults furthest from our selves 20 Where is the Church of England We desire him to tell us what the Church of England is for it doth not please him that we should call the Convocation the Church of England much lesse the Bishops or Archbishops Quaere If it was so hard to finde out the Church of England in the Prelates dayes surely it is hard to finde it out now then it seemes neither Synod Bishops nor Archbishops were the Church Then Quaere where is the Church now not in the Assembly they are but consulting how to build the Church not in the Presbytery for that is a Church unbuilt yet not among the Parishes they are not Scripture Churches or Congregations as the same Smectymnus sayes then where is the Church of England 21 The name of Church is the Gorgons Head But these Episcopall men deale as the Papists that dazle the eyes and astonish the senses of poor people with the glorious name of the Church the Church the holy mother the Church this is the Gorgons Head that hath enchaunted them and held them in bondage to their errours all there speech is of the Church the Church no mention of the Scriptures of God the Father but all of the mother the Church Quaere 1. If the name of Church then the Mother Church the Church was such a Gorgons head by which Prelates as well as Papists enchanted thousands of People to believe why is that very thing or device taken up in another forme to enchant with still viz. The Church of England the Orthodox Churches the Reformed Churches 2. If the Mother Church was so much spoken on before and the Scriptures so little why is not the Church of England the Reformed Churches the Orthodox Churches and Divines lesse spoken on and the Scriptures more 22 An ill Custome to say Church of England and Conformity It hath been the custome of late times to cry up the holy mother the Church of England to call for absolute obedience to holy Church full conformity to the orders of holy Church neglecting in meane time God the Father and the holy Scriptures Quaere If it hath been the unwarrantable custome of late times to cry up the Church of England and absolute obedience to the Church and conformity why is this custome still kept up conformity obedience and uniformity as much called for still as before why is not the word more spoken on and the Reformed Church lesse why is not free Christian liberty peaceable forbearance of each others differing opinions and practices in unity more heard among us and obedience conformity and uniformity lesse 23 To call Schismaticks and Hereticks the Bishops Practice Only there is one practice of our Bishops that is their casting out unconforming brethren commonly known in their Court language by the name of Schismaticks and Hereticks Quaere 1. If the Bishops did practice the casting out the Non-Conforming Brethren whither ought any such practice to be taken up by the Non-Conforming Brethren against Brethren now not Conforming to them 2. If all the Non-Conforming Brethren were in their Courtlanguage Hereticks and Schismaticks whither ought not such names to be sent packing to Court againe rather then taken up by the same Brethren who were so much called so themselves Hereticks and Schismaticks that they have taken it up against others 24 Heresies and Schisme harsh words But we had hoped the refusall of the use of a Ceremony should never have been equalized in the punishment either to Heresie or Schisme Quaere If you hoped that the refusall of a Ceremony would not have been punished with heresie and schisme from Bishops may not your Brethren hope much more from you that their dissenting from you in things of outward Cognizance and forme as Church Order and Bapisme would not be so branded for heresie and schisme by you who glory in a more Gospel way as you were branded your selves of late 25 Heavie censures for Non-Conformity I

conveyed over from one of them to the other Did not the Pope whip the Protestant with fines imprisonments and the Prelate take the rod our of his hand and whip the Non-conformist and the Non-conformist or Presbyter take the same rod out of the Prelates hand and scourge those that are Non-conformists to him Consid. 7. Let it be well considered whether the design of the Nationall Ministery ever since the first working of it upon the Magi●●rates hath not a design for strengthening their owne interest by the Magistracy of the Kingdomes and how have Kingdomes been embroiled for the serving of this designe and whether is not this guilded with the glorious name of Reformation Consid. 8. Let it be considered from the severall wayes and formes of proceeding in which the beleevers of severall opinions have gone in these times to support themselves which stands most on a pure Gospel spirituall bottome supported by its owne innate congeniall and proper strength clasping about no stones no pillars of the world or humane strength Consid. 9. Let it be considered whether the whole cry of the Divines of the other party as in the late booke is not all to the Magistrate Help us Parliament help us City or we are undone the Heresies and Sects will undoe us What said Ezra I was ashamed saith he to require of the King an army and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way because we had said the hand of our God is upon all them that seek him Consid. 10. Let it be considered whether they whom he calls Hereticks and Schismaticks make it one of their choicest Principles to desire the Magistrate to help their opinions with their prisons fines pillories but rather that they would let them alone to stand and fall by the power or weaknesse of their Gospell principles and that they may have liberty to pray for them pay to them and possesse the Gospell Each Opinion stated briefly respectively to Toleration Let it be considered to what each pretended Heresie will amount to Independency INdependents beleive that since the Parishes are so generally corrupted the Churches ought to consist of those of them onely that professe more purely as they finde Scripture Rule and Practice and as the Presbyteriant themselves many of them practice in some Ordinances as that of Baptisme●nd the Supper giving them onely to the purest Beleivers They also beleive that they ought not by a few Ministers and Elders of the Churches to bring all the Churches and Congregations under their power and dominion but rather under their advice and consultation Quaere Becaus● then they practice to meet more purely and to rule lesse one over another whether is this enough that they should be fined imprisoned banished The Anabaptists THe Anabaptists so called they hold that Beleivers ought only to be baptized and that Baptisme ought to be so for the manner as may set forth Christs death buriall and resurrection by water as the Greek word and Apostles practice seems to imply and some of the ablest Divines both of England and the great Adversaries the Papists themselves deny not and for children they reade of none the Apostles Baptized and they see not any Scripture cleare enough to warrant and they therefore forbeare Quaere Because they will not practice then what is not cleare in command and confessed by all to be but in hidden consequence because they baptize as they finde the clearest rule and practice and as none can deny but it was the Apostles generall practice to baptize Believers therefore whither is this enough that they should be Fined Imprisoned Banished The Seekers SEekers some of them Question only the way of Church and Ordinances as of Baptisme c. because they finde that the power was at first given to the Apostles with gifts and from them to others and they dare not take it from Antichrist and the Bishops as the Reformed Kingdomes generally take it nor from the Churches because they finde no such power begun from the Churches but only of choyce or consent not of power nor Churches begun before Apostles or Disciples with gifts Quaere Whither then is this enough because they conceive they dare not take Ordinances but from such and in such a manner as was given at first to fine Imprison or Banish them A Modell or Short Draught of the whole difference betwixt the Divines for the Presbytery and them of the other way respectively to the Magistrate or State drawn from the late Books and Practice of both parties in a Petitionary way They of the Presbytery to the Magistrates or State WE humbly Petition ye that Hereticks and Schismaticks wee believing all that differ from us to be so may have your power inflicted upon them whither to fines imprisonment or Banishment and upon this condition ye shall have what we can doe or preach c. The Independents to the Magistrates or State VVEe humbly Petition that ye will not hazard nor endanger your civill power of the State to help our opinions against our Brethren for we are not Infallible nor Apostolicall we see but in part and that ye will not punish any of our Brethren Presbyterials or others for what they believe or differ from us in things of outward order in the Gospel and that we may have leave to pray for ye to pay tribute to ye to fight for ye and to worship the Lord among our selves peaceably as we believe and to punish us when we disturbe ye by Tumults or trouble your peace in our way of worshiping SOME QUAERES FOR The better understanding OF Mr EDWARDS last BOOK Called in Latine Gangrena But in English a Book of Scandals AGAINST The Honourable Houses of Parliament the Army the Saints and Churches of Christ that differ from him Quaere 1. VVHether this be not a new way and work of Providence to bring forth some Gospel light to the world by presenting some truth under the name and notion of errours and heresies which can scarce obtain from the Presse and Pulpit any other way of appearing abroad and if this be not to take the wise in their own craftiness and to make Mr Cranford the Licenser and Mr Edwards the Publisher of some such Truths which the world had else never known so publikely but under the form of heresie and from their two pens but under this disguise 2. Whether that Story which Mr Edwards tels of Brasteed in Kent where he sayes a woman preaches which is known to my selfe and all in that place to be a meere untruth be not a way to judge of most of his Stories Letters Relations 3. Whether this late Book called Gangrena where there are so many Letters writ to the Reverend Mr Edwards to the Worthy Mr Edwards to the Good Mr Edwards to the Father Mr Edwards to the Worthy Reverend good Mr Edwards with divers other insinuations of his own worth be not a way of seeking glory and praise from men