infallible_o and_o necessary_o a_o particular_a church_n to_o exceed_v the_o limit_n of_o one_o particular_a congregation_n yet_o they_o never_o intend_v it_o as_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n now_o you_o know_v the_o say_n authoris_fw-la aliud_fw-la agentis_fw-la parva_fw-la est_fw-la authâ—…ritas_fw-la but_o show_v we_o where_o ever_o the_o old_a non-conformists'_a as_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n hold_v so_o it_o will_v appear_v by_o gerson_n bucerus_n and_o by_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o geneva_n amplitudinâ—…_n and_o holland_n for_o which_o mr_n robinson_n so_o object_n against_o they_o in_o his_o apology_n that_o though_o they_o be_v against_o the_o government_n of_o bishop_n and_o diocesan_n church_n that_o be_v of_o a_o head_n church_n over_o many_o congregation_n unite_v to_o it_o yet_o not_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n of_o such_o a_o city_n consist_v of_o many_o particular_a congregation_n and_o as_o for_o that_o you_o take_v for_o grant_v by_o all_o that_o there_o shall_v be_v several_a elder_n in_o every_o congregation_n it_o be_v deny_v you_o for_o some_o divine_n as_o danaeus_n and_o cartwright_n as_o i_o remember_v hold_v it_o not_o necessary_a for_o every_o small_a congregation_n in_o village_n but_o for_o city_n and_o more_o populous_a place_n to_o which_o the_o lesser_a village_n be_v conjoin_v have_v the_o benefit_n and_o support_v of_o all_o the_o elder_n and_o minister_n in_o the_o exercise_v of_o government_n as_o for_o that_o you_o say_v other_o of_o they_o call_v the_o combination_n of_o church_n ecclesiae_fw-la ortae_fw-la but_o particular_a congregation_n ecclesiae_fw-la primae_fw-la as_o wherein_o first_o the_o power_n and_o privilege_n of_o a_o church_n be_v to_o be_v exercise_v that_o other_o be_v â—…2_n mr_n parker_n who_o in_o his_o politia_fw-la ecclesiastica_fw-la give_v we_o this_o distinction_n and_o be_v the_o first_o who_o bring_v it_o up_o as_o ever_o i_o read_v of_o who_o differ_v from_o mr_n baynes_n and_o other_o non-conformists'_a and_o most_o divine_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o the_o subject_n of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n give_v it_o to_o the_o 1._o body_n of_o the_o church_n agree_v therein_o too_o much_o with_o you_o no_o wonder_n he_o call_v particular_a congregation_n ecclesiae_fw-la primae_fw-la but_o as_o he_o be_v mistake_v in_o the_o first_o receptacle_n and_o subject_n of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n so_o he_o may_v be_v in_o his_o distinction_n of_o ecclesiae_fw-la primae_fw-la and_o ortae_fw-la for_o the_o first_o church_n namely_o that_o of_o jerusalem_n rome_n ephesus_n with_o other_o be_v not_o particular_a congregation_n but_o church_n consist_v of_o many_o congregation_n several_a meeting_n place_n some_o preach_n in_o one_o place_n and_o other_o in_o other_o place_n but_o govern_v by_o the_o elder_n in_o common_a which_o city_n church_n be_v the_o first_o church_n still_o first_o plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n and_o particular_a congregation_n in_o village_n be_v ecclesiae_fw-la ortae_fw-la the_o city_n church_n in_o this_o sense_n be_v the_o mother_n and_o the_o particular_a congregation_n rather_o the_o daughter_n the_o full_a proof_n and_o demonstration_n whereof_o i_o refer_v to_o a_o tractate_n i_o intend_v about_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n but_o by_o what_o i_o have_v answer_v upon_o this_o head_n the_o reader_n separation_n may_v observe_v there_o be_v not_o all_o grant_v which_o you_o take_v for_o grant_v from_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o the_o nonconformist_n and_o what_o be_v yield_v slow_v from_o another_o spring_n and_o be_v upon_o another_o ground_n write_v against_o diocesan_n bishop_n quite_o another_o controversy_n but_o otherwise_o even_o when_o nonconformist_n have_v come_v to_o write_v against_o the_o separation_n and_o upon_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o visible_a church_n as_o mr_n ball_n a_o they_o hold_v the_o contrary_n and_o for_o learned_a man_n of_o other_o church_n even_o when_o they_o write_v against_o episcopacy_n yet_o they_o be_v far_o from_o hold_v that_o a_o particular_a visible_a church_n be_v only_o a_o particular_a congregation_n pertinens_fw-la as_o gersom_a bucerus_n in_o his_o answer_n to_o d_o â—_o downham_n a_o particular_a church_n be_v any_o company_n of_o believer_n conjoin_v in_o the_o observation_n of_o holy_a ordinance_n and_o unite_a to_o one_o presbytery_n keep_v their_o meeting_n in_o one_o or_o more_o place_n for_o the_o number_n of_o parish_n in_o which_o they_o meet_v be_v a_o thing_n accidental_a be_v nothing_o at_o all_o to_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o even_o the_o nonconformist_n you_o speak_v of_o as_o it_o appear_v by_o the_o wary_a expression_n yourselves_o use_v of_o they_o namely_o infallible_o and_o necessary_o do_v even_o give_v the_o cause_n for_o that_o be_v as_o you_o imply_v the_o nonconformist_n in_o their_o answer_n can_v not_o deny_v but_o probable_o the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o numerous_a as_o to_o exceed_v the_o limit_n of_o one_o particular_a congregation_n in_o those_o first_o timâ—…s_n though_o not_o infallible_o and_o rational_o though_o not_o necessary_o now_o in_o point_n of_o external_a order_n and_o government_n which_o depend_v upon_o the_o story_n and_o circumstance_n of_o time_n and_o place_n how_o many_o thing_n be_v there_o practise_v but_o of_o presumption_n though_o not_o of_o certainty_n and_o though_o they_o can_v be_v infallible_o and_o necessary_o prove_v so_o as_o to_o stop_v all_o mouth_n and_o all_o that_o the_o wit_n of_o man_n can_v possible_o find_v out_o yet_o if_o the_o thing_n assert_v can_v be_v but_o probable_o prove_v upon_o better_a reason_n then_o the_o contrary_a we_o may_v incline_v to_o that_o as_o to_o the_o safe_a part_n how_o many_o practice_n and_o tenant_n have_v you_o in_o your_o churchway_n that_o can_v be_v infallible_o and_o necessary_o prove_v but_o strong_a answer_n may_v be_v and_o be_v give_v to_o the_o reason_n you_o bring_v for_o they_o than_o any_o the_o nonconformist_n can_v give_v to_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n and_o yet_o you_o hold_v to_o your_o principle_n for_o all_o that_o and_o it_o be_v a_o rule_n have_v be_v plead_v by_o some_o of_o you_o that_o in_o thing_n of_o that_o nature_n where_o the_o scripture_n be_v not_o express_v but_o hold_v they_o out_o most_o probable_o though_o not_o infallible_o and_o necessary_o yet_o we_o ought_v to_o incline_v to_o that_o as_o for_o mr_n baynes_n answer_n though_o direct_v against_o diocesan_n bishop_n and_o diocesan_n church_n to_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n it_o be_v no_o whit_n satisfactory_a nor_o conclude_v to_o any_o man_n who_o be_v of_o another_o judgement_n as_o the_o reader_n may_v read_v in_o the_o 15._o and_o 16._o page_n of_o the_o diocese_n trial_n to_z the_o 3_o particular_a under_o the_o first_o head_n namely_o what_o you_o allow_v and_o grant_v about_o a_o church_n and_o the_o government_n that_o you_o can_v not_o but_o imagine_v that_o the_o first_o church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n be_v ordinary_o of_o no_o more_o in_o one_o city_n at_o the_o first_o then_o may_v make_v up_o one_o entire_a congregation_n rule_v by_o their_o own_o elder_n that_o also_o preach_v to_o they_o and_o that_o you_o can_v not_o but_o judge_v it_o a_o safe_a and_o a_o allow_a way_n to_o retain_v the_o government_n of_o your_o several_a congregation_n for_o matter_n of_o discipline_n within_o themselves_o to_o be_v exercise_v by_o their_o own_o elder_n etc._n etc._n in_o way_n of_o answer_n i_o must_v first_o complain_v of_o your_o old_a fault_n the_o slippery_a and_o uncertain_a expression_n use_v in_o the_o relation_n of_o what_o you_o own_o and_o allow_v about_o a_o church_n in_o those_o phrase_n the_o first_o church_n ordinary_o and_o at_o first_o i_o demand_v the_o reason_n of_o you_o why_o you_o put_v in_o ordinary_o and_o at_o first_o be_v it_o not_o because_o you_o foresee_v the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n and_o some_o few_o other_o record_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n though_o not_o in_o the_o first_o chapter_n of_o the_o act_n and_o at_o the_o beginning_n yet_o will_v at_o last_o by_o the_o 8._o of_o the_o act_n and_o act_n 21._o amount_v to_o more_o than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n and_o therefore_o you_o express_v it_o so_o be_v this_o fair_a deal_n or_o what_o other_o reason_n can_v you_o give_v for_o use_v such_o doubtful_a expression_n the_o question_n be_v not_o between_o you_o and_o we_o whether_o all_o the_o church_n and_o most_o of_o the_o church_n or_o whether_o at_o first_o and_o in_o the_o begin_n of_o they_o they_o consist_v of_o no_o more_o in_o one_o city_n then_o to_o make_v up_o one_o congregation_n but_o whether_o the_o scripture_n in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o epistle_n be_v it_o first_o or_o last_o soon_o or_o late_a give_v any_o pattern_n or_o example_n of_o
other_o man_n i_o brief_o suggest_v these_o follow_a thing_n to_o you_o and_o the_o reader_n 1._o that_o by_o your_o own_o concession_n set_v form_n of_o prayer_n be_v not_o unlawful_a because_o they_o be_v set_v and_o frame_v before_o hand_n and_o not_o conceive_v sudden_o wherein_o you_o grant_v that_o the_o public_a prayer_n in_o the_o assembly_n may_v be_v premeditate_v frame_v and_o study_v before_o hand_n as_o well_o as_o sermon_n which_o concession_n take_v off_o one_o of_o the_o strong_a argument_n use_v against_o set-forme_n of_o prayer_n 2._o i_o answer_v it_o be_v not_o against_o the_o fruit_n of_o christ_n ascension_n into_o heaven_n and_o of_o give_v gift_n unto_o man_n for_o the_o ministry_n that_o they_o do_v not_o always_o in_o all_o their_o prayer_n exercise_v their_o own_o gift_n of_o invention_n and_o composall_n of_o prayer_n for_o so_o the_o use_n of_o the_o lord_n prayer_n shall_v be_v unlawful_a at_o any_o time_n for_o the_o minister_n which_o be_v no_o prayer_n frame_v out_o of_o their_o own_o meditation_n and_o study_n and_o their_o own_o gift_n 3._o i_o answer_v there_o be_v a_o great_a dissimilitude_n in_o many_o respect_n between_o sermon_n and_o prayer_n so_o that_o it_o will_v not_o hold_v though_o sermon_n ought_v to_o be_v frame_v always_o out_o of_o our_o own_o gift_n that_o therefore_o prayer_n always_o shall_v be_v and_o this_o i_o will_v demonstrate_v in_o a_o discourse_n of_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o use_v set-forme_n of_o prayer_n compose_v by_o other_o 4._o it_o be_v not_o against_o the_o fruit_n of_o christ_n ascension_n nor_o the_o gift_n give_v then_o for_o minister_n in_o some_o instruction_n and_o teach_n of_o the_o people_n to_o make_v use_n of_o some_o thing_n sometime_o in_o public_a either_o doctrinal_a or_o practical_a not_o frame_v out_o of_o their_o own_o gift_n but_o by_o other_o as_o suppose_v the_o read_n in_o the_o congregation_n to_o the_o people_n often_o some_o confession_n of_o faith_n or_o some_o exhortation_n about_o main_a thing_n of_o use_n to_o they_o have_v still_o the_o free_a use_n of_o their_o giftsto_n preach_v beside_o 5._o suppose_v you_o five_o shall_v join_v together_o out_o of_o your_o own_o meditation_n and_o study_n exercise_v your_o own_o gift_n to_o frame_v public_a prayer_n of_o main_a petition_n needful_a for_o the_o state_n of_o all_o your_o church_n whether_o may_v they_o be_v use_v by_o you_o in_o your_o public_a assembly_n 6._o whether_o each_o of_o you_o by_o yourselves_o frame_v upon_o meditation_n and_o study_v a_o set-forme_n of_o prayer_n may_v not_o use_v that_o often_o in_o your_o assembly_n without_o sin_n have_v also_o your_o liberty_n to_o add_v conceive_v prayer_n at_o the_o same_o time_n but_o to_o put_v all_o out_o of_o question_n about_o the_o second_o instance_n i_o judge_v that_o set_v form_n of_o prayer_n prescribe_v take_v in_o both_o sense_n that_o be_v neither_o make_v nor_o frame_v out_o of_o the_o gift_n of_o the_o person_n who_o use_v they_o nor_o leave_v at_o liberty_n but_o by_o public_a consent_n agree_v upon_o to_o be_v use_v be_v not_o unlawful_a to_o be_v practise_v but_o the_o scripture_n give_v we_o example_n for_o such_o prayer_n as_o in_o 2_o chron._n 29._o 30._o moreover_o hezekiah_n the_o king_n and_o the_o prince_n command_v the_o levite_n to_o sing_v praise_n unto_o the_o lord_n with_o the_o word_n of_o david_n and_o of_o asaph_n the_o seer_n and_o they_o sing_v praise_n with_o gladness_n and_o they_o bow_v their_o head_n and_o worship_v and_o therefore_o the_o use_n of_o set_a form_n of_o prayer_n frame_v and_o compose_v by_o other_o and_o prescribe_v have_v example_n in_o scripture_n as_o well_o as_o conceive_v be_v no_o additament_n nor_o superaddition_n but_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o practise_v both_o practise_v most_o safe_o according_a to_o scripture_n pattern_n and_o your_o church_n use_v only_o one_o sort_n and_o not_o the_o other_o leave_v to_o follow_v example_n record_v in_o scripture_n and_o we_o may_v more_o just_o cast_v upon_o you_o the_o take_v away_o from_o scripture_n take_v away_o be_v a_o like_a brand_v by_o scripture_n as_o add_v but_o you_o do_v unjust_o cast_v upon_o the_o reform_a church_n add_v to_o the_o word_n the_o scripture_n hold_v out_o example_n for_o both_o and_o for_o the_o further_o clear_v your_o mistake_n in_o this_o great_a ordinance_n of_o public_a prayer_n i_o shall_v only_o add_v this_o all_o that_o god_n have_v command_v either_o in_o the_o old_a testament_n or_o new_a about_o public_a prayer_n be_v that_o prayer_n be_v make_v in_o the_o public_a assembly_n and_o that_o those_o prayer_n be_v of_o petition_n for_o their_o matter_n and_o kind_n lawful_a according_a unto_o the_o will_n of_o god_n direct_v unto_o god_n alone_o in_o the_o name_n of_o christ_n with_o humility_n fervency_n faith_n and_o such_o like_a but_o that_o god_n have_v require_v that_o as_o oft_o as_o minister_n pray_v they_o must_v put_v up_o prayer_n frame_v by_o their_o own_o meditation_n and_o study_n out_o of_o their_o own_o gift_n and_o that_o the_o word_n and_o phrase_n must_v be_v various_a and_o diversify_v or_o else_o their_o prayer_n be_v not_o lawful_a there_o be_v never_o such_o a_o syllable_n to_o prove_v it_o in_o the_o scripture_n but_o we_o have_v example_n of_o both_o namely_o set_v and_o conceive_v and_o god_n servant_n use_v both_o indifferent_o and_o we_o may_v use_v both_o according_a as_o we_o see_v occasion_n and_o as_o we_o find_v may_v make_v most_o for_o edification_n and_o god_n glory_n and_o i_o desire_v you_o in_o your_o reply_n to_o this_o answer_n to_o give_v any_o instance_n to_o the_o contrary_a and_o i_o shall_v thank_v you_o for_o i_o seek_v truth_n and_o peace_n and_o not_o victory_n nor_o contention_n and_o let_v i_o mind_n you_o whilst_o you_o go_v about_o in_o this_o instance_n to_o clear_v yourselves_o of_o additament_n you_o be_v in_o this_o and_o other_o instance_n guilty_a of_o take_v away_o from_o the_o word_n fall_v short_a as_o in_o other_o thing_n practise_v above_o what_o be_v write_v beside_o your_o different_a way_n of_o practise_v in_o some_o thing_n so_o likewise_o for_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n in_o the_o church_n however_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n be_v in_o great_a matter_n apolog._n to_o govern_v each_o particular_a congregation_n by_o a_o combine_a presbytery_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o several_a congregation_n unite_v in_o one_o for_o government_n yet_o so_o as_o in_o their_o judgement_n they_o allow_v especial_o in_o some_o case_n a_o particular_a congregation_n a_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o be_v exercise_v by_o the_o elder_n thereof_o within_o itself_o yea_o and_o our_o own_o mr_n cartwright_n holy_a baynes_n and_o other_o old_a nonconformist_n place_v the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n in_o the_o eldership_n of_o each_o particular_a church_n with_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o church_n until_o they_o do_v miscarry_v and_o then_o indeed_o they_o do_v subject_n they_o to_o such_o presbyterial_a and_o provincial_n assembly_n as_o the_o proper_a refuge_n for_o appeal_n and_o for_o compound_v of_o difference_n among_o church_n which_o combination_n of_o church_n other_o of_o they_o therefore_o call_v ecclesiae_fw-la ortae_fw-la but_o particular_a congregation_n ecclesiae_fw-la primae_fw-la as_o wherein_o first_o the_o power_n and_o privilege_n of_o a_o church_n be_v to_o be_v exercise_v and_o withal_o we_o can_v not_o but_o imagine_v that_o the_o first_o church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n be_v ordinary_o of_o no_o more_o in_o one_o city_n at_o first_o then_o may_v make_v up_o one_o entire_a congregation_n rule_v by_o their_o own_o elder_n that_o also_o preach_v to_o they_o for_o that_o in_o every_o city_n where_o they_o come_v the_o number_n of_o convert_n do_v or_o shall_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o that_o the_o apostle_n shall_v stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n at_o all_o until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n as_o may_v make_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n we_o do_v not_o imagine_v we_o find_v also_o those_o non-conformists'_a that_o write_v against_o the_o episcopal_a government_n in_o their_o answer_n to_o the_o argument_n use_v for_o episcopal_a government_n over_o many_o church_n bring_v from_o the_o instance_n of_o the_o multitude_n of_o believer_n at_o jerusalem_n and_o other_o place_n and_o city_n mention_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n to_o assert_v that_o it_o will_v not_o be_v infallible_o prove_v that_o any_o of_o those_o we_o read_v of_o in_o the_o act_n and_o elsewhere_o be_v yet_o so_o numerous_a as_o necessary_o to_o exceed_v the_o limit_n of_o one_o particular_a congregation_n in_o those_o first_o time_n we_o find_v it_o also_o grant_v by_o they_o all_o
church_n allow_v particular_a congregation_n such_o a_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n to_o be_v exercise_v by_o the_o elder_n within_o themselves_o and_o wherein_o not_o such_o a_o particular_a narration_n will_v have_v carry_v in_o the_o face_n of_o it_o some_o ground_n for_o the_o defference_n of_o their_o practice_n and_o allowance_n &_o may_v have_v serve_v to_o have_v point_v out_o the_o difference_n between_o your_o way_n and_o they_o but_o second_o as_o you_o relate_v the_o way_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n it_o sound_v somewhat_o harsh_a and_o strange_a that_o their_o practice_n shall_v be_v one_o way_n and_o their_o judgement_n another_o their_o practice_n to_o govern_v each_o particular_a congregation_n by_o a_o combine_a presbytery_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o several_a congregation_n unite_v in_o one_o for_o government_n and_o yet_o in_o their_o judgement_n to_o allow_v especial_o in_o some_o case_n a_o particular_a congregation_n and_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o itself_o do_v they_o practise_v one_o way_n and_o allow_v another_o way_n or_o do_v they_o hold_v both_o way_n the_o way_n of_o god_n or_o what_o be_v it_o you_o mean_v in_o this_o narration_n of_o those_o church_n or_o can_v it_o be_v mean_v in_o the_o same_o sense_n and_o acception_n to_o practice_v one_o thing_n and_o yet_o allow_v another_o or_o will_v you_o make_v the_o lesser_a matter_n practise_v in_o their_o particular_a church_n by_o their_o own_o elder_n to_o be_v the_o same_o with_o some_o case_n wherein_o they_o allow_v particular_a congregation_n a_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o themselves_o now_o the_o latter_a namely_o in_o some_o case_n can_v be_v mean_v for_o then_o this_o last_o part_n be_v no_o more_o than_o the_o first_o neither_o can_v your_o word_n of_o a_o entire_a complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o the_o particular_a congregation_n be_v mean_v of_o small_a matter_n but_o of_o the_o great_a matter_n in_o some_o case_n you_o shall_v do_v well_o in_o your_o reply_n to_o english_a these_o line_n about_o the_o difference_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n practice_n in_o great_a matter_n and_o their_o different_a judgement_n in_o some_o case_n and_o show_v we_o in_o what_o sense_n they_o mean_v it_o and_o whether_o it_o can_v be_v proper_o and_o true_o allege_v for_o your_o case_n of_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n in_o your_o congregation_n three_o this_o which_o you_o here_o relate_v of_o the_o reform_a church_n practice_v and_o allowance_n be_v fallacious_o set_v down_o and_o for_o your_o own_o advantage_n mere_o to_o make_v out_o this_o three_o principle_n that_o you_o still_o choose_v to_o practice_v safe_o namely_o what_o the_o reform_a church_n allow_v and_o acknowledge_v warrantable_a only_o they_o superad_v presbyterial_a combination_n whereas_o the_o reform_a church_n do_v not_o as_o you_o well_o know_v in_o the_o case_n and_o question_v controvert_v between_o they_o and_o you_o allow_v particular_a congregation_n in_o a_o kingdom_n and_o nation_n conceive_v the_o reform_a religion_n to_o have_v a_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o themselves_o what_o may_v be_v in_o some_o of_o their_o book_n in_o extraordinary_a or_o special_a case_n where_o there_o be_v but_o one_o particular_a congregation_n in_o a_o country_n or_o the_o like_a that_o be_v nothing_o to_o the_o point_n in_o hand_n it_o be_v lay_v for_o a_o common_a ground_n by_o they_o all_o that_o every_o particular_a church_n in_o a_o nation_n or_o kingdom_n be_v not_o to_o be_v leave_v to_o itself_o but_o that_o there_o be_v a_o necessity_n of_o a_o common_a national_a government_n to_o preserve_v all_o the_o church_n in_o unity_n and_o peace_n and_o to_o clear_v the_o reform_a church_n of_o france_n holland_n 18._o scotland_n from_o what_o you_o say_v they_o allow_v i_o do_v not_o find_v in_o their_o book_n of_o discipline_n and_o platform_n of_o church_n government_n by_o which_o we_o must_v judge_v of_o their_o judgement_n nor_o in_o their_o practice_n that_o they_o do_v allow_v a_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n to_o be_v exercise_v by_o the_o elder_n of_o every_o congregation_n alone_o either_o in_o the_o make_n or_o ordain_v of_o minister_n or_o in_o depose_v their_o minister_n or_o in_o draw_v up_o a_o form_n of_o doctrine_n worship_n and_o discipline_n for_o themselves_o they_o allow_v power_n of_o admonition_n suspension_n from_o the_o lord_n supper_n and_o of_o take_v up_o lesser_a difference_n by_o the_o particular_a eldership_n and_o if_o i_o forget_v not_o the_o church_n of_o france_n only_o practise_v excommunication_n by_o the_o elder_n in_o particular_a congregation_n without_o carry_v it_o at_o first_o high_o but_o then_o if_o we_o consider_v that_o in_o those_o church_n of_o france_n their_o eldership_n go_v upon_o certain_a fix_a rule_n in_o there_o excommunication_n lay_v down_o in_o their_o book_n of_o discipline_n who_o if_o they_o proceed_v otherwise_o be_v liable_a to_o censure_v themselves_o and_o their_o be_v appeal_v to_o synod_n and_o assembly_n and_o all_o be_v carry_v in_o reference_n and_o dependence_n to_o assembly_n the_o case_n be_v very_o different_a now_o if_o the_o church_n of_o your_o way_n and_o communion_n in_o old_a england_n and_o in_o new_a will_v yield_v to_o have_v a_o government_n fix_v and_o settle_v by_o synod_n and_o assembly_n establish_v also_o by_o the_o magistrate_n upon_o which_o rule_n and_o order_n they_o shall_v proceed_v in_o the_o way_n of_o make_v minister_n and_o that_o such_o error_n in_o doctrine_n and_o such_o evil_a manner_n aught_o to_o be_v the_o subject_n of_o excommunication_n and_o then_o agree_v upon_o appeal_n to_o synod_n and_o assembly_n than_o there_o will_v be_v less_o dangâ—…r_n in_o such_o a_o entire_a and_o complete_a power_n in_o particular_a congregation_n to_o the_o second_o particular_a under_o this_o first_o head_n namely_o what_o some_o of_o the_o old_a non-conformists'_a grant_n place_v the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n in_o the_o eldership_n of_o each_o particular_a church_n until_o they_o do_v miscarry_v and_o then_o indeed_o subjâ—…cting_v they_o to_o presbytâ—…riall_n and_o provincial_n assembly_n and_o that_o it_o can_v not_o be_v infallible_o prove_v that_o any_o of_o the_o church_n record_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v so_o numerous_a as_o necessary_o to_o exceed_v the_o limit_n of_o one_o particular_a congregatïon_n and_o that_o both_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o our_o non-conformists'_a all_o grant_v that_o there_o shall_v be_v several_a elder_n in_o every_o congregation_n who_o have_v power_n over_o they_o in_o the_o lord_n i_o answer_v as_o follow_v for_o mr_n cartwright_n you_o not_o quote_v which_o of_o his_o book_n you_o have_v reference_n to_o and_o so_o not_o know_v which_o to_o turn_v to_o to_o find_v out_o what_o you_o assert_v of_o he_o i_o shall_v not_o deny_v it_o but_o as_o for_o mr_n baynes_n diocesan_n trial_n which_o be_v the_o only_a book_n i_o ever_o hear_v of_o wherein_o he_o handle_v these_o point_n he_o do_v in_o the_o three_o question_n give_v the_o ecclesiastical_a power_n and_o the_o exercise_n of_o it_o to_o a_o unite_a multitude_n of_o presbyter_n in_o which_o book_n howsoever_o as_o intend_v his_o book_n against_o diocesan_n bishop_n and_o diocesan_n church_n to_o who_o all_o presbyter_n and_o church_n stand_v in_o subjection_n and_o subordination_n he_o plead_v against_o they_o for_o the_o power_n of_o the_o particular_a elder_n in_o the_o several_a congregation_n yet_o as_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n practice_v namely_o of_o a_o presbyterial_a church_n consist_v of_o many_o particular_a congregation_n and_o rule_v by_o the_o elder_n of_o several_a congregation_n combine_v he_o plead_v not_o but_o express_o in_o answer_n make_v to_o those_o two_o objection_n from_o the_o church_n and_o elder_n where_o there_o be_v a_o co-ordination_a and_o a_o communiâ—…y_n in_o government_n as_o in_o the_o low_a country_n and_o at_o géneva_n he_o grant_v the_o thing_n contend_v for_o against_o your_o congregationall_a way_n even_o before_o miscarry_v and_o show_v thâ—…_n great_a difference_n between_o the_o diocesan_n government_n and_o the_o presbyterial_a in_o several_a particular_n and_o answer_v your_o objection_n which_o you_o common_o make_v of_o a_o foreign_a extrinsicall_a power_n and_o for_o your_o better_a satisfaction_n read_v and_o compare_v together_o the_o passage_n in_o these_o page_n of_o mr_n baynes_n diocesan_n trial_n page_n 21_o page_n 11._o what_o be_v mean_v by_o a_o diocesan_n church_n and_o in_o the_o 12_o page_n two_o first_o conclusion_n agree_v in_o and_o in_o the_o 16_o page_n and_o for_o the_o non-conformists'_a in_o their_o write_n against_o the_o episcopal_a government_n and_o diocesan_n church_n though_o they_o put_v the_o bishop_n their_o adversary_n all_o they_o can_v to_o it_o to_o make_v they_o prove_v
be_v so_o many_o as_o they_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n but_o have_v more_o meet_v place_n yet_o in_o imitation_n of_o the_o scripture_n give_v that_o ground_n to_o some_o who_o have_v ask_v they_o a_o reason_n they_o make_v city_n church_n but_o one_o and_o the_o minister_n be_v minister_n in_o common_a of_o they_o all_o preach_v in_o their_o course_n in_o the_o several_a meeting_n place_n and_o govern_v in_o common_a and_o this_o they_o do_v to_o keep_v near_o to_o apostolical_a practice_n whereas_o now_o in_o the_o country_n where_o village_n be_v and_o the_o meeting_n be_v scatter_v they_o do_v not_o all_o preach_v to_o all_o and_o to_o add_v this_o further_a to_o show_v your_o unsafe_a way_n of_o practise_v in_o the_o way_n of_o your_o particular_a congregation_n over_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o our_o church_n in_o england_n your_o congregation_n as_o in_o london_n where_o the_o meeting_n place_n be_v and_o the_o minister_n reside_v be_v make_v up_o of_o member_n as_o of_o some_o live_n in_o london_n so_o of_o some_o in_o surrey_n middlesex_n hartfordsheire_n essex_n where_o they_o have_v fixum_fw-la domicilium_fw-la being_n twenty_o mile_n asunder_o and_o many_o member_n meet_v but_o sometime_o in_o a_o month_n where_o neither_o minister_n can_v oversee_v they_o nor_o member_n watch_v over_o one_o another_o not_o know_v what_o the_o conversation_n of_o each_o other_o be_v which_o yet_o be_v bring_v as_o the_o main_a ground_n for_o your_o church-fellowship_n which_o non-residencie_a of_o the_o member_n from_o one_o another_o and_o of_o the_o officer_n from_o so_o many_o of_o the_o member_n whether_o it_o overthrow_v not_o and_o be_v not_o point_v blank_a against_o many_o of_o your_o principle_n of_o the_o churchway_n i_o leave_v to_o yourselves_o to_o judge_v beside_o that_o it_o be_v without_o any_o primitive_a pattern_n and_o example_n of_o the_o church_n erect_v by_o the_o apostle_n the_o church_n be_v still_o style_v according_a to_o the_o place_n where_o they_o live_v and_o meet_v as_o in_o rom._n 1._o 7._o to_o all_o that_o be_v in_o rome_n belove_v of_o god_n call_v to_o be_v saint_n and_o so_o in_o the_o epistle_n to_o the_o corinthian_n to_o the_o church_n of_o god_n which_o be_v at_o corinth_n and_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o give_v i_o any_o primitive_a pattern_n of_o any_o who_o belong_v to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n corinth_n jerusalem_n that_o be_v be_v stand_v member_n of_o those_o church_n who_o live_v and_o inhabit_v ten_o mile_n twenty_o five_o mile_n etc._n etc._n round_o about_o those_o city_n so_o that_o we_o find_v here_o in_o this_o three_o instance_n namely_o in_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o first_o instance_n in_o the_o qualification_n of_o your_o member_n that_o the_o additament_n be_v on_o your_o side_n and_o not_o on_o the_o reform_a church_n to_o the_o three_o head_n namely_o the_o reason_n couch_v and_o hint_v for_o your_o own_o practice_n and_o against_o the_o practice_n and_o way_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n to_o the_o first_o reason_n i_o answer_v as_o the_o relate_n of_o the_o state_n of_o the_o question_n be_v not_o proper_a so_o this_o argument_n hint_v here_o be_v not_o proper_o express_v for_o their_o might_n be_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a church_n and_o government_n as_o be_v maintain_v against_o you_o namely_o but_o two_o or_o three_o distinct_a meet_v place_n and_o yet_o not_o church_n rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n nor_o apostle_n stay_v to_o the_o set_n up_o of_o church_n until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n but_o pray_v what_o do_v you_o mean_v by_o those_o expression_n we_o do_v not_o imagine_v but_o may_v you_o not_o or_o can_v you_o not_o have_v imagine_v it_o though_o you_o do_v not_o nor_o will_v not_o and_o what_o by_o this_o that_o the_o apostle_n shall_v stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n at_o all_o until_o they_o rise_v to_o make_v such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n as_o may_v make_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n do_v you_o carry_v the_o word_n in_o reference_n only_o to_o that_o numerous_a multiplication_n or_o simple_o and_o positive_o that_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o stay_v so_o long_o in_o any_o city_n as_o to_o set_v up_o any_o church_n at_o all_o now_o if_o you_o will_v have_v your_o word_n interpret_v in_o the_o first_o sense_n then_o judge_v how_o improper_a the_o speech_n and_o narration_n of_o your_o mind_n be_v for_o than_o it_o shall_v have_v go_v thus_o that_o the_o apostle_n shall_v stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o so_o many_o church_n until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n for_o the_o deny_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n and_o at_o all_o agree_v not_o with_o the_o follow_a word_n until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n the_o former_a be_v a_o diminutive_a nay_o a_o negative_a and_o can_v agree_v to_o such_o a_o augmentative_a as_o the_o latter_a beside_o your_o first_o word_n carry_v in_o reference_n to_o the_o follow_v have_v no_o strength_n to_o prove_v what_o you_o bring_v they_o for_o namely_o what_o you_o allow_v and_o practise_v or_o what_o you_o disallow_v for_o though_o the_o apostle_n shall_v not_o stay_v so_o long_o as_o the_o set_n up_o so_o many_o church_n as_o may_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n of_o several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n yet_o there_o may_v be_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a classical_a church_n a_o church_n consist_v of_o more_o than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n which_o be_v the_o controversy_n between_o we_o but_o if_o you_o understand_v your_o word_n simple_o and_o positive_o that_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n at_o all_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o remember_v your_o own_o principle_n and_o expression_n in_o many_o book_n and_o discourse_n of_o your_o way_n that_o the_o apostle_n be_v the_o founder_n of_o the_o first_o church_n as_o at_o corinth_n rome_n and_o for_o jerusalem_n especial_o which_o be_v the_o particular_a church_n we_o most_o stand_v upon_o the_o apostle_n stay_v long_o enough_o there_o to_o set_v up_o not_o only_o any_o church_n at_o all_o but_o many_o to_o make_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n as_o be_v stand_v for_o as_o will_v appear_v both_o by_o act_n 8._o act_n 15._o act_n 21._o and_o it_o be_v the_o judgement_n of_o mr_n robinson_n that_o jerusalem_n be_v never_o without_o some_o of_o the_o apostle_n there_o which_o the_o two_o first_o chapter_n of_o the_o galatian_n give_v a_o strong_a ground_n for_o beside_o the_o many_o presbyter_n that_o belong_v thereunto_o and_o so_o for_o the_o church_n of_o ephesus_n paul_n stay_v at_o one_o time_n in_o those_o part_n three_o year_n together_o long_a enough_o to_o make_v so_o many_o church_n as_o may_v make_v a_o presbyterial_a combination_n which_o that_o of_o the_o act_n chap._n 20._o vers_fw-la 17_o 18_o 25_o 28_o 29_o 31._o do_v give_v hint_n enough_o for_o if_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o answer_n to_o a_o narration_n will_v permit_v to_o draw_v they_o out_o at_o length_n to_o the_o second_o reason_n hint_v that_o those_o precept_n obey_v your_o elder_n and_o they_o that_o be_v over_o you_o be_v to_o be_v sure_o mean_v of_o the_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n set_v over_o they_o in_o each_o particular_a congregation_n respective_o and_o to_o be_v as_o certain_o the_o intendment_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o in_o those_o command_n wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v that_o in_o scripture_n a_o particular_a church_n consist_v of_o more_o congregation_n than_o one_o and_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n feed_v they_o and_o govern_v they_o in_o common_a as_o at_o jerusalem_n and_o as_o it_o be_v in_o the_o low_a country_n in_o city_n there_o as_o at_o amsterdam_n etc._n etc._n all_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n be_v their_o own_o minister_n and_o elder_n as_o the_o husband_n be_v the_o own_o of_o their_o wife_n and_o those_o scripture_n be_v to_o be_v understand_v of_o all_o their_o pastor_n and_o minister_n and_o not_o of_o some_o only_a or_o in_o respect_n of_o some_o and_o not_o of_o the_o rest_n and_o it_o be_v as_o certain_o the_o intendment_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o in_o that_o command_n wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n that_o obey_v your_o elder_n etc._n etc._n be_v mean_v not_o of_o some_o but_o of_o they_o all_o 2._o in_o church_n by_o their_o combination_n consist_v of_o many_o congregation_n where_o ordinary_o some_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n feed_v some_o congregation_n and_o not_o the_o rest_n minister_n be_v fix_v some_o to_o that_o congregation_n and_o other_o to_o other_o congregation_n yet_o there_o be_v a_o government_n in_o common_a by_o all_o the_o presbyter_n of_o
by_o what_o i_o have_v answer_v already_o both_o of_o the_o weakness_n of_o that_o ground_n a_o sudden_a and_o unexpected_a noise_n of_o confuse_a exclamation_n and_o that_o in_o all_o reason_n you_o can_v not_o but_o expect_v exclamation_n that_o you_o be_v not_o enforce_v by_o that_o to_o make_v this_o apology_n and_o to_o anticipate_v the_o discovery_n of_o yourselves_o be_v scholar_n and_o understand_a man_n you_o may_v blush_v to_o write_v that_o such_o poor_a thing_n shall_v enforce_v you_o against_o your_o resolution_n but_o you_o be_v willing_a and_o desirous_a to_o make_v such_o a_o anticipation_n and_o so_o you_o will_v make_v and_o find_v some_o ground_n for_o it_o judge_v a_o sorry_a excuse_n better_o than_o none_o at_o all_o but_o however_o you_o be_v not_o enforce_v to_o anticipate_v yet_o i_o must_v tell_v you_o this_o aoplogie_n be_v a_o anticipation_n with_o a_o witness_n such_o a_o anticipation_n both_o for_o the_o unseasonablenesse_n of_o it_o and_o for_o the_o manner_n and_o way_n of_o it_o as_o i_o judge_v no_o story_n nor_o age_n can_v parallel_v it_o that_o you_o can_v not_o stay_v a_o little_a long_o but_o in_o such_o a_o time_n when_o we_o need_v so_o much_o the_o assistance_n of_o our_o brethren_n of_o scotland_n and_o the_o help_n of_o all_o other_o reform_a church_n in_o the_o face_n of_o the_o parliament_n assembly_n and_o kingdom_n to_o put_v out_o such_o a_o piece_n and_o to_o do_v such_o a_o act_n as_o this_o be_v beyond_o all_o example_n and_o i_o will_v but_o represent_v to_o yourselves_o and_o the_o reader_n in_o a_o three_o person_n what_o you_o have_v do_v in_o make_v this_o apologetical_a narration_n and_o then_o leave_v you_o to_o give_v sentence_n suppose_v any_o other_o five_o member_n of_o the_o assembly_n man_n as_o considerable_a as_o yourselves_o every_o way_n both_o for_o piety_n and_o learning_n nay_o any_o twenty_o member_n of_o the_o assembly_n have_v at_o the_o same_o time_n when_o you_o put_v forth_o this_o apologetical_a narration_n only_o present_v a_o bare_a narration_n of_o a_o government_n different_a both_o from_o the_o government_n by_o archbishop_n bishop_n etc._n etc._n and_o from_o the_o presbyterial_a to_o both_o house_n of_o parliament_n and_o that_o without_o recite_v their_o do_n and_o suffering_n or_o plead_v their_o great_a merit_n or_o without_o cast_v any_o aspersion_n on_o presbyterial_a government_n and_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o shall_v have_v peremptory_o conclude_v as_o you_o do_v in_o two_o several_a page_n viz._n 22_o and_o 24._o that_o we_o do_v here_o public_o profess_v the_o true_a government_n to_o stand_v and_o consist_v in_o the_o middle_a way_n betwixt_o that_o which_o be_v call_v episcopal_a and_o presbyterial_a what_o will_v you_o five_o have_v think_v of_o this_o and_o how_o think_v you_o will_v this_o have_v be_v take_v by_o the_o house_n of_o parliament_n and_o by_o the_o assembly_n whether_o will_v not_o you_o five_o and_o some_o other_o of_o you_o have_v cry_v out_o of_o this_o as_o a_o most_o strange_a fact_n and_o have_v strong_o move_v and_o aggravate_v it_o with_o all_o your_o might_n that_o this_o affront_n both_o to_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o assembly_n so_o contrary_a to_o the_o nature_n and_o end_n of_o this_o meeting_n to_o pre-judge_n and_o pre-determine_a a_o government_n may_v be_v censure_v with_o a_o suspension_n from_o the_o assembly_n at_o least_o if_o not_o a_o utter_a expulsion_n as_o for_o the_o discover_n of_o yourselves_o by_o this_o apologetical_a narration_n which_o otherwise_o you_o shall_v have_v leave_v to_o time_n and_o experience_n this_o book_n be_v not_o only_o a_o little_a discovery_n of_o yourselves_o but_o a_o mighty_a discoverer_n of_o your_o way_n and_o spirit_n and_o show_v we_o what_o we_o may_v judge_v of_o you_o who_o will_v put_v out_o in_o public_a a_o piece_n so_o fallacious_a and_o untrue_a as_o this_o will_v appear_v to_o be_v but_o how_o ever_o this_o be_v the_o first_o discovery_n of_o yourselves_o in_o this_o way_n with_o all_o your_o hand_n subscribe_v yet_o we_o have_v have_v a_o discovery_n of_o you_o for_o some_o year_n past_a both_o in_o your_o practice_n of_o withdraw_a from_o our_o public_a assembly_n and_o in_o gather_v and_o constitute_v separate_v church_n preach_v also_o often_o on_o the_o point_n concern_v your_o churchway_n as_o also_o write_v letter_n and_o other_o manuscript_n about_o â—…ose_a matter_n with_o other_o way_n wherein_o time_n and_o experiâ—…ce_n of_o 7_o or_o 8_o year_n last_v past_a have_v be_v sufficient_a discoverer_n and_o sure_a judge_n of_o you_o and_o your_o action_n and_o now_o we_o shall_v begin_v to_o make_v some_o appearance_n into_o public_a apolog._n light_n unto_o who_o view_n and_o judgement_n shall_v we_o that_o have_v hitherto_o lie_v under_o so_o darkâ—…_n a_o cloud_n of_o manifold_a mis-apprehension_n at_o first_o present_v ourselves_o but_o to_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a of_o this_o kingdom_n which_o be_v and_o have_v be_v in_o all_o time_n the_o most_o just_a and_o severe_a tribunal_n for_o guiltiness_n to_o appear_v before_o much_o more_o to_o dare_v to_o appeal_v unto_o and_o yet_o withal_o the_o most_o sacred_a refuge_n and_o asylum_n for_o mistake_v and_o mis-judged_n innocence_n it_o be_v strange_a that_o have_v keep_v out_o of_o public_a light_n as_o you_o say_v all_o this_o three_o year_n space_n you_o can_v not_o forbear_v a_o little_a long_o from_o tell_v fine_a story_n of_o yourselves_o and_o publish_v your_o particular_a private_a opinion_n in_o print_n especial_o consider_v there_o be_v a_o assembly_n of_o learned_a divine_n of_o which_o you_o be_v member_n to_o declare_v unto_o and_o with_o who_o you_o may_v debate_v the_o point_n in_o difference_n where_o also_o you_o know_v you_o have_v all_o freedom_n and_o just_a respect_n and_o i_o must_v tell_v you_o it_o be_v the_o judgement_n of_o some_o of_o your_o good_a friend_n that_o you_o be_v much_o mistake_v in_o the_o time_n now_o and_o that_o you_o have_v be_v far_o more_o excusable_a if_o you_o have_v put_v out_o this_o apologetical_a narration_n a_o year_n or_o two_o ago_o they_o interpret_n it_o a_o violation_n of_o the_o orâ—…nce_n by_o which_o you_o be_v member_n a_o high_a affront_n and_o contempt_n to_o the_o assembly_n in_o pre-judging_a of_o it_o and_o such_o a_o preingage_v of_o yourselves_o and_o party_n as_o you_o can_v retreat_v so_o easy_o and_o with_o that_o honour_n as_o you_o may_v before_o as_o also_o a_o ground_n of_o much_o disturbance_n and_o prejudice_n with_o the_o people_n against_o what_o shall_v be_v determine_v by_o the_o assembly_n as_o to_o that_o you_o say_v we_o now_o begin_v to_o make_v some_o appearance_n into_o public_a light_n in_o a_o sense'tis_o true_a for_o all_o the_o time_n that_o you_o have_v be_v in_o your_o church_n way_n both_o in_o holland_n and_o england_n you_o have_v carry_v thing_n close_o and_o conceal_v all_o that_o you_o can_v possible_o your_o opinion_n and_o practice_n with_o the_o ground_n of_o they_o from_o your_o brethren_n the_o minister_n who_o study_v and_o understand_v the_o point_n but_o for_o tender_a conscience_a and_o weak_a christian_n especial_o such_o who_o you_o have_v any_o interest_n in_o any_o way_n and_o you_o have_v any_o probability_n to_o gain_v to_o you_o you_o have_v not_o be_v want_v either_o in_o letter_n of_o invitation_n or_o cominend_v some_o book_n of_o the_o churchway_n to_o they_o as_o also_o by_o preach_v and_o conference_n to_o draw_v they_o to_o you_o as_o for_o that_o quere_z unto_o who_o view_n and_o judgement_n shall_v we_o at_o first_o present_v ourselves_o but_o to_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a of_o this_o kingdom_n i_o answer_v 1._o to_o any_o rather_o than_o to_o the_o two_o house_n of_o parliament_n to_o present_v before_o they_o such_o a_o dark_a covert_a doubtful_a un-true_a relation_n 2._o in_o these_o point_n of_o difference_n about_o church-government_n and_o worship_n you_o shall_v have_v present_v yourselves_o rather_o to_o the_o assembly_n than_o the_o parliament_n and_o if_o you_o consult_v the_o ordinance_n by_o virtue_n of_o which_o you_o be_v member_n you_o will_v find_v it_o more_o conformable_a to_o have_v first_o propound_v your_o doubt_n to_o the_o assembly_n and_o if_o the_o assembly_n can_v not_o have_v satisfy_v you_o then_o afterward_o you_o have_v a_o allowance_n of_o give_v in_o your_o dissent_n with_o the_o ground_n of_o they_o to_o both_o house_n as_o to_o that_o passage_n your_o have_v hitherto_o lie_v under_o so_o dark_a a_o cloud_n of_o manifold_a misapprehension_n which_o you_o make_v the_o ground_n of_o first_o present_v yourselves_o to_o the_o parliament_n by_o this_o apology_n how_o do_v this_o agree_v with_o what_o you_o write_v in_o page_n 24_o and_o we_o find_v many_o of_o those_o mist_n that_o have_v gather_v about_o we_o or_o be_v rather_o cast_v
of_o this_o they_o make_v thing_n accidental_o evil_a according_a as_o this_o be_v thing_n be_v or_o be_v not_o ordinance_n and_o mean_n of_o salvation_n baptism_n be_v no_o baptism_n unless_o it_o be_v administer_v by_o a_o minister_n a_o minister_n be_v no_o minister_n unless_o call_v by_o the_o church_n and_o so_o i_o may_v speak_v of_o other_o thing_n by_o all_o which_o it_o will_v appear_v that_o mr_n simpson_n have_v thought_n and_o doubt_n and_o will_v have_v other_o have_v such_o thought_n too_o that_o we_o have_v neither_o church_n nor_o ordinance_n nor_o minister_n according_a to_o his_o definition_n of_o a_o church_n and_o to_o the_o matter_n contain_v in_o his_o letter_n and_o in_o the_o close_a of_o his_o letter_n though_o he_o write_v i_o meddle_v not_o with_o judge_v of_o these_o thing_n with_o you_o but_o propound_v you_o a_o rule_n or_o way_n to_o judge_v of_o thing_n by_o i_o dare_v not_o say_v your_o congregation_n be_v not_o church_n but_o desire_v you_o to_o look_v that_o they_o be_v so_o for_o your_o own_o peace_n yet_o it_o be_v evident_a by_o what_o he_o say_v in_o his_o letter_n that_o he_o account_v neither_o our_o church_n nor_o our_o minister_n true_a and_o will_v stumble_v he_o in_o these_o thing_n to_o who_o he_o write_v i_o have_v a_o manuscript_n entitle_v a_o treatise_n of_o the_o church_n go_v under_o the_o name_n of_o one_o of_o these_o apologist_n and_o a_o godly_a minister_n from_o who_o hand_n i_o have_v it_o assure_v it_o i_o it_o be_v he_o in_o which_o treatise_n there_o be_v a_o answer_n to_o this_o question_n but_o suppose_v saint_n live_v in_o a_o nation_n wherein_o there_o be_v some_o kind_n of_o a_o church_n constitute_v already_o may_v they_o gather_v themselves_o into_o a_o church_n the_o answer_n be_v as_o follow_v 1._o if_o you_o suppose_v that_o there_o be_v church_n in_o england_n yet_o such_o as_o never_o be_v true_o member_n of_o any_o of_o they_o be_v free_a to_o begin_v and_o gather_v themselves_o into_o a_o church_n and_o to_o be_v of_o the_o best_a institution_n they_o can_v this_o liberty_n we_o under_o the_o gospel_n have_v which_o the_o jew_n have_v not_o 2._o although_o they_o be_v church_n yet_o we_o â—…re_v not_o to_o continue_v in_o they_o and_o not_o remain_v from_o they_o 1._o in_o that_o they_o be_v church_n defective_a in_o some_o ordinance_n as_o namely_o prophesy_v mutual_a admonition_n excommunication_n 2._o they_o be_v church_n defile_v in_o our_o judgement_n in_o which_o communicate_v we_o can_v but_o be_v defile_v now_o though_o they_o be_v church_n as_o a_o leprous_a man_n be_v a_o man_n yet_o be_v defile_v we_o can_v communiâ—…ate_v with_o they_o and_o so_o in_o regard_n of_o our_o use_n now_o no_o church_n and_o in_o the_o same_o page_n it_o be_v add_v we_o may_v be_v keep_v from_o join_v with_o the_o true_a church_n and_o yet_o not_o withdraw_v from_o these_o as_o no_o church_n but_o as_o no_o church_n of_o use_n to_o we_o now_o i_o appeal_v to_o the_o reader_n what_o he_o can_v judge_v of_o your_o profession_n in_o the_o six_o page_n and_o of_o these_o passage_n in_o your_o letter_n and_o manuscript_n and_o as_o some_o of_o your_o hand_n be_v contrary_a to_o this_o profession_n so_o your_o work_n be_v contrary_a to_o it_o in_o forsake_v the_o communion_n of_o our_o church_n and_o ministry_n and_o in_o draw_v other_o away_o and_o in_o write_v to_o many_o to_o come_v to_o you_o and_o in_o set_v up_o church_n and_o pray_v deal_v ingenious_o once_o in_o your_o reply_n see_v you_o ever_o hold_v and_o do_v now_o much_o more_o that_o our_o assembly_n be_v true_a church_n and_o our_o minister_n true_a minister_n how_o you_o can_v satisfy_v your_o own_o conscience_n and_o we_o from_o any_o scripture_n ground_n either_o of_o precept_n or_o example_n to_o separate_v from_o we_o i_o be_o assure_v you_o can_v produce_v any_o ground_n and_o that_o all_o scripture_n instance_n whether_o in_o example_n or_o precept_n will_v never_o come_v up_o to_o your_o practice_n and_o case_n but_o brethren_n why_o will_v you_o in_o a_o narration_n that_o shall_v be_v plain_a that_o all_o who_o â—…unne_n may_v read_v it_o deal_v thus_o fallacious_o amuse_v the_o reader_n with_o your_o profession_n of_o our_o church_n and_o ministry_n in_o such_o general_n and_o never_o declare_v what_o you_o hold_v particular_o of_o they_o few_o reader_n unless_o some_o who_o have_v thorough_o study_v your_o principle_n and_o distinction_n be_v never_o the_o wise_a for_o your_o profession_n i_o must_v therefore_o of_o necessity_n english_a your_o word_n and_o tell_v the_o meaning_n of_o all_o this_o that_o be_v neither_o the_o church_n or_o church_n of_o england_n nor_o the_o ministry_n thereof_o as_o they_o be_v in_o their_o frame_n and_o constitution_n according_a to_o the_o law_n and_o as_o they_o be_v in_o their_o visible_a order_n be_v true_a church_n or_o true_a ministry_n but_o now_o so_o far_o as_o in_o many_o of_o our_o parochial_a congregation_n there_o be_v something_o common_a with_o what_o you_o hold_v about_o a_o church_n and_o ministry_n so_o far_o true_a and_o not_o antichristian_a as_o for_o example_n you_o hold_v that_o in_o some_o congregation_n we_o have_v many_o visible_a saint_n and_o in_o some_o parish_n minister_n choose_v by_o the_o people_n which_o minister_n preach_v and_o pray_v according_a to_o your_o way_n but_o for_o what_o we_o else_o practice_v in_o our_o make_n of_o minister_n in_o our_o form_n of_o prescribe_a prayer_n etc._n etc._n so_o no_o true_a church_n nor_o ministry_n and_o that_o this_o be_v your_o meaning_n will_v appear_v by_o what_o follow_v 1._o letter_n and_o speech_n of_o some_o of_o your_o way_n who_o write_v not_o so_o wary_o as_o you_o show_v so_o much_o mr_n bachelor_n a_o member_n of_o your_o churchway_n in_o print_a letter_n of_o he_o date_v from_o rotterdam_n september_n the_o 4_o 1641._o both_o to_o minister_n here_o in_o london_n and_o to_o citizen_n speak_v thus_o in_o reference_n to_o you_o and_o whereas_o it_o be_v believe_v they_o be_v friend_n to_o separation_n this_o i_o can_v assure_v you_o that_o they_o deny_v not_o the_o church_n in_o england_n such_o as_o m._n calamy_n and_o m._n goodwin_n in_o coleman-street_n to_o be_v true_a church_n and_o why_o m._n goodwin_n and_o m._n calamy_n but_o because_o they_o be_v choose_v by_o the_o congregation_n and_o there_o be_v many_o visible_a saint_n in_o those_o congregation_n and_o so_o other_o of_o your_o way_n have_v be_v reason_v with_o how_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n that_o there_o be_v no_o national_n visible_a church_n under_o the_o new_a testament_n no_o visible_a church_n but_o a_o particular_a congregation_n and_o that_o the_o essence_n of_o minister_n call_v be_v election_n by_o the_o people_n and_o that_o the_o form_n of_o a_o church_n be_v a_o particular_a covenant_n with_o other_o thing_n of_o this_o nature_n and_o therefore_o consider_v the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v national_n and_o have_v no_o such_o covenant_n nor_o such_o a_o way_n of_o ministry_n how_o they_o can_v hold_v we_o have_v true_a church_n and_o true_a minister_n their_o answer_n have_v be_v you_o have_v implicit_a church_n and_o implicit_a minister_n but_o if_o you_o will_v say_v you_o understand_v your_o word_n in_o this_o section_n not_o as_o m._n bachelor_n nor_o as_o other_o of_o your_o way_n but_o plain_o as_o divine_n usual_o take_v church_n and_o ministry_n then_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o reconcile_v together_o all_o your_o definition_n and_o description_n of_o true_a visible_a church_n and_o true_a minister_n with_o our_o church_n and_o ministry_n of_o england_n and_o for_o further_a satisfaction_n in_o this_o point_n i_o desire_v you_o in_o your_o reply_n to_o this_o answer_n candid_o and_o clear_o to_o express_v yourselves_o when_o you_o fall_v to_o your_o churchway_n and_o be_v to_o be_v take_v for_o minister_n in_o those_o church_n whether_o you_o hold_v yourselves_o or_o be_v look_v upon_o by_o your_o church_n as_o true_a minister_n by_o virtue_n of_o your_o call_n in_o england_n or_o whether_o rather_o you_o be_v not_o look_v upon_o only_a as_o gift_a man_n and_o do_v not_o some_o of_o you_o at_o least_o renounce_v and_o disclaim_v your_o call_n in_o england_n and_o be_v make_v minister_n a_o new_a by_o the_o church_n consist_v only_o of_o people_n or_o lay-elder_n at_o the_o best_a without_o minister_n m._n williams_n in_o his_o answer_n to_o m._n cotton_v letter_n angl._n open_o justify_v they_o hold_v and_o practise_v so_o in_o new-england_n now_o your_o principle_n agree_v so_o with_o they_o and_o some_o story_n relate_v to_o i_o of_o some_o of_o you_o make_v i_o doubt_v the_o same_o of_o you_o as_o for_o that_o reason_n you_o give_v why_o you_o never_o hold_v our_o church_n no_o
liberal_a maintenance_n annual_o for_o our_o minister_n yea_o and_o constant_o also_o wine_n for_o our_o communion_n and_o then_o we_o again_o on_o our_o part_n not_o only_o hold_v all_o brotherly_a correspondency_n with_o their_o divine_n but_o receive_v also_o some_o of_o the_o member_n of_o their_o church_n who_o desire_v to_o communicate_v with_o we_o unto_o communion_n in_o the_o sacrament_n and_o other_o ordinance_n by_o virtue_n of_o their_o relation_n of_o membership_n retain_v in_o those_o church_n in_o the_o last_o section_n i_o prove_v both_o by_o letter_n and_o many_o other_o presumption_n you_o always_o hold_v not_o that_o respect_n to_o the_o church_n of_o england_n you_o seem_v to_o profess_v in_o that_o section_n if_o now_o at_o last_o you_o be_v grow_v more_o sober_a and_o wise_a upon_o review_v your_o principle_n i_o be_o glad_a of_o it_o non_fw-la est_fw-la pudor_fw-la ad_fw-la meliora_fw-la transire_fw-la for_o this_o section_n your_o be_v receive_v and_o entertain_v with_o the_o like_a respect_n from_o those_o reform_a church_n abroad_o and_o your_o mutual_o give_v and_o receive_v the_o right_a hand_n of_o fellowship_n if_o i_o may_v believe_v report_n and_o letter_n and_o those_o not_o light_n but_o from_o minister_n and_o good_a people_n i_o have_v be_v by_o word_n of_o mouth_n tell_v and_o i_o have_v in_o write_v from_o thence_o ground_n to_o question_v the_o truth_n of_o this_o narration_n a_o godly_a minister_n out_o of_o holland_n in_o answer_n to_o some_o question_n send_v about_o the_o truth_n of_o your_o apology_n write_v thus_o to_o this_o present_a section_n and_o here_o i_o can_v but_o add_v this_o that_o whereas_o the_o apologetical_a narration_n mention_n these_o thing_n as_o a_o argument_n holland_n of_o the_o encouragement_n they_o have_v in_o these_o part_n and_o their_o good_a concurrence_n with_o the_o church_n here_o it_o have_v be_v affirm_v to_o i_o from_o very_o good_a testimony_n that_o however_o the_o magistrate_n at_o rotterdam_n for_o politic_a end_n as_o to_o gather_v company_n to_o they_o which_o be_v for_o the_o profit_n of_o the_o place_n yet_o the_o church_n there_o i_o mean_v the_o dutch_a never_o approve_a of_o the_o course_n hold_v there_o by_o these_o brethren_n and_o their_o people_n it_o have_v be_v affirm_v to_o i_o that_o many_o of_o the_o dutch_a minister_n be_v much_o offend_v at_o mr_n bridges_n be_v ordain_v minister_n by_o the_o lay-elder_n without_o any_o preach_a presbyter_n and_o what_o ever_o right-hand_a fellowship_n and_o brotherly_a correspondency_n you_o may_v hold_v with_o the_o dutch_a divine_n some_o of_o the_o english_a minister_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o have_v complain_v of_o your_o great_a strangeness_n and_o distance_n towards_o they_o and_o instance_n have_v be_v give_v i_o particular_o by_o a_o great_a friend_n of_o you_o now_o in_o london_n that_o when_o some_o of_o you_o have_v come_v to_o amsterdam_n you_o never_o will_v go_v to_o mr_n herring_n a_o good_a old_a nonconformist_a but_o have_v go_v to_o mr_n canne_n the_o separatist_n and_o to_o his_o church_n and_o beside_o this_o report_n tell_v i_o some_o year_n ago_o from_o a_o friend_n of_o your_o own_o that_o i_o may_v not_o only_o believe_v report_n i_o send_v over_o into_o holland_n some_o question_n about_o the_o truth_n of_o some_o thing_n relate_v by_o you_o in_o this_o apology_n the_o contrary_a whereunto_o i_o have_v be_v inform_v of_o before_o and_o among_o other_o question_n upon_o this_o section_n i_o propound_v what_o communion_n and_o converse_n pass_v between_o the_o godly_a english_a minister_n and_o their_o congregation_n and_o you_o or_o whither_o when_o you_o come_v to_o amsterdam_n you_o go_v not_o rather_o to_o the_o brownist_n meeting_n and_o converse_v with_o mr_n can_v more_o than_o the_o reform_a minister_n unto_o which_o question_n i_o have_v this_o answer_n in_o so_o many_o word_n send_v to_o this_o i_o can_v say_v that_o since_o my_o come_n hither_o we_o have_v have_v no_o such_o communion_n with_o they_o as_o that_o we_o have_v prevail_v with_o any_o of_o they_o to_o preach_v in_o our_o congregation_n though_o i_o be_o sure_a some_o of_o they_o have_v be_v earnest_o importune_v thereunto_o indeed_o mr_n bridge_n seem_v once_o to_o be_v willing_a but_o do_v not_o and_o for_o their_o go_v to_o the_o brownist_n and_o converse_v with_o mr_n can_v more_o than_o we_o that_o be_v undeniable_a what_o you_o may_v of_o this_o read_v in_o epistle_n to_o the_o rejoinder_n indefence_n of_o mr_n bradshaw_n against_o mr_n can_n be_v most_o true_a and_o certain_a but_o suffer_v i_o a_o little_a to_o examine_v the_o particular_n wherein_o you_o will_v prove_v the_o mutual_a give_v and_o receive_v the_o right-hand_a of_o fellowship_n for_o the_o first_o that_o you_o be_v receive_v and_o entertain_v with_o the_o like_a respect_n that_o you_o give_v to_o our_o church_n in_o england_n i_o easy_o believe_v which_o be_v but_o little_a and_o if_o the_o reform_a church_n look_v upon_o you_o and_o you_o on_o they_o as_o you_o do_v upon_o our_o church_n in_o this_o kingdom_n you_o have_v no_o cause_n to_o boast_v here_o of_o mutual_a give_v and_o receive_v the_o right_a hand_n of_o fellowship_n remember_v what_o i_o answer_v to_o your_o last_o section_n concern_v your_o profession_n of_o our_o church_n as_o to_o that_o proof_n you_o bring_v of_o their_o give_v you_o the_o right_a hand_n of_o fellowship_n in_o their_o abundant_o manifest_v it_o by_o the_o very_a same_o character_n and_o testimony_n of_o difference_n which_o be_v proper_a to_o their_o own_o orthodox_n church_n and_o whereby_o they_o use_v to_o distinguish_v they_o from_o all_o those_o sect_n &c_n &c_n i_o answer_v this_o be_v not_o to_o all_o of_o your_o church_n for_o mr_n simpson_n which_o yet_o be_v your_o way_n and_o be_v here_o own_a by_o you_o all_o in_o this_o apology_n have_v not_o a_o church_n or_o public_a place_n for_o worship_n grant_v to_o he_o nor_o the_o privilege_n of_o ring_v a_o bell_n to_o call_v to_o meeting_n but_o be_v look_v upon_o as_o a_o sect_n as_o mr_n bridge_n tell_v i_o and_o in_o a_o letter_n out_o of_o holland_n from_o a_o good_a hand_n to_o that_o question_n whether_o mr_n simpson_n church_n have_v the_o allowance_n of_o ring_v a_o public_a bell_n to_o call_v to_o their_o meeting_n and_o whether_o any_o maintenance_n allow_v by_o the_o state_n it_o be_v answer_v to_o this_o i_o shall_v say_v i_o never_o yet_o hear_v by_o any_o that_o his_o church_n have_v any_o such_o allowance_n of_o bell_n or_o maintenance_n by_o the_o state_n now_o if_o mr_n simpson_n church_n be_v look_v upon_o as_o a_o sect_n tolerate_v but_o not_o own_v want_v that_o great_a signal_n of_o difference_n between_o allow_a church_n and_o all_o other_o assembly_n namely_o the_o privilege_n of_o ring_v a_o public_a bell_n to_o call_v unto_o their_o meeting_n and_o the_o rest_n of_o your_o church_n be_v just_a of_o the_o same_o way_n and_o constitution_n with_o he_o as_o appear_v by_o this_o apology_n then_o the_o rank_v of_o you_o now_o you_o be_v here_o with_o sect_n be_v no_o great_a injury_n to_o you_o neither_o will_v the_o grant_n to_o your_o two_o other_o church_n public_a place_n to_o worship_n with_o maintenance_n for_o some_o of_o your_o minister_n etc._n etc._n free_v you_o from_o be_v look_v upon_o as_o sect_n by_o the_o church_n and_o minister_n there_o but_o i_o must_v tell_v you_o these_o privilege_n come_v from_o other_o ground_n as_o namely_o one_o of_o your_o church_n consist_v of_o many_o person_n of_o great_a quality_n and_o go_v at_o first_o to_o a_o privilege_a place_n the_o other_o church_n have_v former_o be_v a_o church_n in_o the_o way_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o and_o so_o have_v then_o the_o allowance_n of_o a_o public_a place_n the_o first_o sensible_a decline_v of_o that_o church_n to_o the_o new-way_n be_v by_o mr_n peter_n before_o he_o go_v to_o new-england_n now_o mr_n bridge_n come_v to_o that_o church_n and_o bring_v with_o he_o and_o after_o he_o wealthy_a citizen_n and_o clothier_n by_o which_o the_o magistrate_n at_o rotterdam_n know_v well_o their_o advantage_n no_o wonder_n though_o they_o permit_v that_o church_n their_o public_a place_n and_o give_v to_o their_o minister_n a_o full_a and_o liberal_a maintenance_n yea_o and_o wine_n for_o their_o communion_n and_o yet_o shall_v gain_v well_o by_o it_o as_o for_o your_o hold_v all_o brotherly_a correspondency_n with_o their_o divine_n which_o i_o suppose_v you_o mean_v the_o dutch_a not_o know_v any_o of_o they_o i_o can_v say_v nothing_o against_o it_o but_o only_o it_o be_v a_o great_a presumption_n that_o hold_v so_o little_o brotherly_a correspondency_n with_o our_o own_o english_a divine_v there_o you_o hold_v not_o much_o with_o the_o dutch_a but_o grant_v that_o
use_v every_o lord_n day_n in_o the_o reform_a church_n then_o the_o particular_n mentionad_v by_o you_o without_o a_o etc._n etc._n and_o therefore_o what_o you_o mean_v by_o under_o etc._n etc._n unless_o prophesy_v hymn_n and_o such_o like_a i_o can_v imagine_v for_o officer_n and_o public_a ruler_n in_o the_o church_n whether_o you_o actual_o have_v make_v any_o church-widdowe_n in_o any_o of_o your_o church_n they_o be_v matter_n of_o charge_n which_o also_o as_o for_o admit_v of_o poor_a member_n some_o of_o you_o be_v very_o careful_a of_o i_o can_v affirm_v but_o that_o you_o hold_v widow_n to_o be_v officer_n of_o the_o church_n and_o part_n of_o the_o church_n government_n that_o i_o can_v prove_v by_o these_o follow_a instance_n 1._o by_o a_o passage_n in_o a_o letter_n from_o mr_n bridge_n to_o some_o at_o norwitch_n by_o mr_n davenports_n profession_n of_o faith_n print_v and_o etc._n by_o mr_n cotton_v catechism_n and_o how_o much_o you_o have_v of_o late_o reason_v for_o such_o a_o church_n officer_n in_o the_o assembly_n you_o know_v and_o let_v the_o reader_n observe_v that_o by_o the_o way_n that_o we_o must_v judge_v of_o your_o way_n rather_o by_o what_o you_o hold_v then_o always_o by_o your_o practice_n for_o one_o of_o your_o church_n have_v be_v some_o year_n without_o a_o pastor_n the_o first_o and_o chief_a officer_n and_o yet_o you_o set_v up_o such_o much_o more_o may_v you_o be_v without_o widow_n for_o some_o year_n and_o yet_o hold_v they_o and_o as_o you_o have_v widow_n a_o church_n officer_n which_o the_o reform_a church_n hold_v not_o so_o in_o one_o of_o your_o church_n you_o have_v have_v teach_v elder_n beside_o a_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n and_o what_o ever_o the_o reform_a church_n hold_v of_o their_o officer_n as_o necessary_a and_o sufficient_a for_o the_o perpetual_a government_n of_o the_o church_n yet_o your_o practice_n be_v not_o as_o if_o you_o hold_v they_o necessary_a and_o perpetual_a for_o one_o of_o your_o church_n have_v be_v many_o year_n without_o a_o pastor_n the_o prime_a officer_n and_o ruler_n in_o the_o church_n and_o other_o of_o your_o church_n without_o other_o officer_n which_o if_o they_o be_v so_o necessary_a and_o as_o institute_v by_o christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n for_o the_o perpetual_a government_n of_o the_o church_n how_o you_o can_v be_v without_o these_o officer_n and_o namely_o the_o most_o necessary_a and_o principal_a for_o many_o year_n together_o i_o can_v see_v and_o i_o desire_v you_o in_o your_o reply_n to_o satisfy_v we_o and_o to_o show_v reason_n how_o you_o can_v depart_v from_o that_o which_o be_v confess_v by_o all_o church_n and_o yourselves_o to_o for_o the_o maintain_v a_o opinion_n of_o the_o essential_a difference_n between_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n in_o each_o congregation_n so_o much_o deny_v by_o many_o learned_a and_o godly_a divine_n as_o for_o that_o parenthesis_n about_o roll_a elder_n with_o we_o not_o lay_v but_o ecclesiastic_a person_n separate_v to_o that_o service_n i_o desire_v to_o know_v wherein_o and_o how_o your_o roll_a elder_n be_v more_o ecclesiastic_a person_n and_o separate_v to_o that_o service_n than_o the_o roll_a elder_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n the_o reform_a church_n account_v their_o ruling-elders_a ecclesiastical_a person_n and_o they_o be_v separate_v to_o that_o work_n by_o election_n and_o ordination_n and_o whereas_o you_o make_v a_o distinction_n in_o the_o manner_n of_o your_o expression_n between_o rule_v elder_n separate_v to_o that_o service_n and_o deacon_n i_o ask_v you_o whether_o deacon_n be_v not_o ecclesiastical_a person_n and_o separate_v to_o that_o service_n by_o election_n and_o ordination_n as_o well_o as_o elder_n what_o be_v your_o more_o and_o in_o what_o further_a degree_n be_v they_o ecclesiastical_a than_o the_o roll_a elder_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n or_o your_o own_o deacon_n do_v you_o mean_v they_o so_o ecclesiastical_a and_o separate_v to_o that_o service_n of_o rule_v so_o as_o the_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n be_v to_o their_o office_n that_o be_v separate_v from_o all_o civil_a employment_n and_o calling_n to_o the_o work_n of_o whole_o attend_v the_o flock_n and_o of_o be_v as_o minister_n and_o preacher_n of_o the_o word_n now_o if_o you_o understand_v it_o in_o this_o sense_n that_o all_o your_o ruling-elders_a do_v give_v over_o their_o civil_a calling_n and_o worldly_a employment_n and_o be_v so_o separate_v as_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n be_v it_o be_v the_o duty_n of_o the_o ruling-eld_a to_o teach_v public_o as_o well_o as_o govern_v than_o i_o have_v nothing_o to_o say_v against_o your_o ruling-elders_a and_o this_o put_v a_o end_n to_o all_o that_o controversy_n about_o lay-elder_n only_o let_v i_o ask_v you_o two_o question_n 1._o what_o specifical_a difference_n you_o will_v give_v i_o between_o those_o officer_n the_o minister_n of_o the_o word_n and_o ruling-elders_a see_v both_o rule_n and_o preach_v and_o what_o become_v then_o of_o those_o text_n 1_o cor._n 12._o rom._n 12._o which_o be_v hold_v out_o to_o prove_v church_n government_n by_o and_o among_o other_o particular_n be_v bring_v to_o prove_v that_o beside_o those_o who_o teach_v and_o preach_v the_o word_n the_o scripture_n reckon_v up_o governor_n and_o ruler_n 2._o whether_o do_v your_o gentleman_n and_o merchant_n who_o be_v make_v ruling-elders_a among_o you_o upon_o their_o office_n give_v over_o their_o merchandize_v and_o their_o way_n of_o live_v as_o gentleman_n whole_o apply_v themselves_o to_o their_o study_n and_o to_o all_o gravity_n in_o apparel_n hair_n etc._n etc._n but_o now_o if_o your_o ruling-elders_a do_v follow_v their_o merchandize_v and_o trade_n and_o be_v not_o as_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n how_o can_v you_o affirm_v of_o they_o to_o be_v more_o ecclesiastic_a person_n than_o your_o deacon_n or_o then_o the_o elder_n of_o other_o reform_a church_n and_o as_o for_o the_o matter_n of_o government_n and_o censure_n of_o the_o church_n you_o do_v forget_v here_o what_o you_o be_v to_o write_v in_o the_o 16_o page_n and_o in_o the_o 21_o how_o one_o of_o your_o church_n unhappy_o depose_v one_o of_o their_o minister_n which_o censure_n be_v neither_o admonition_n nor_o excommunication_n upon_o obstinacy_n and_o impenitence_n but_o the_o particular_n under_o this_o head_n i_o have_v speak_v to_o upon_o this_o section_n already_o but_o as_o i_o have_v clear_o and_o unanswerable_o show_v your_o public_a worship_n be_v make_v up_o of_o other_o part_n than_o the_o worship_n of_o all_o other_o reform_a church_n and_o have_v instance_a wherein_o you_o practise_v and_o hold_v over_o and_o above_o so_o let_v i_o from_o this_o narration_n of_o your_o way_n and_o practice_n here_o question_n whether_o you_o practise_v all_o part_n of_o worship_n and_o censure_n which_o other_o church_n practice_n for_o i_o fear_v your_o narration_n as_o it_o be_v all_o a_o long_a subtle_o carry_v for_o though_o you_o say_v your_o worship_n be_v make_v of_o no_o other_o part_n nor_o you_o execute_v no_o other_o censure_n but_o what_o all_o acknowledge_v so_o it_o may_v be_v here_o and_o you_o may_v conceal_v what_o you_o have_v omit_v be_v your_o worship_n then_o and_o be_v it_o still_o make_v up_o of_o all_o these_o do_v all_o of_o you_o hold_v or_o do_v you_o practice_v in_o holland_n the_o reading_z the_o scripture_n of_o the_o old_a and_o new_a testament_n as_o a_o ordinance_n without_o any_o exposition_n and_o do_v you_o practice_v the_o sing_n of_o psalm_n according_a to_o the_o way_n of_o reform_a church_n i_o have_v be_v tell_v that_o at_o rotterdam_n the_o scripture_n be_v never_o read_v bare_o without_o exposition_n and_o there_o be_v many_o of_o your_o church_n way_n and_o communion_n that_o will_v neither_o join_v in_o hear_v the_o scripture_n read_v nor_o in_o sing_v of_o psalm_n in_o our_o congregation_n which_o make_v i_o doubt_v some_o of_o you_o may_v be_v of_o the_o same_o opinion_n and_o practice_n and_o do_v all_o of_o you_o while_o you_o be_v in_o holland_n and_o do_v you_o now_o administer_v baptism_n to_o all_o the_o infant_n of_o your_o church_n or_o be_v there_o not_o some_o infant_n unbaptise_v among_o you_o and_o for_o the_o matter_n of_o censure_n though_o you_o say_v you_o have_v nor_o execute_v no_o other_o but_o what_o all_o acknowledge_v yet_o you_o do_v not_o affirm_v you_o execute_v all_o censure_n which_o other_o reform_a church_n acknowledge_v and_o so_o you_o conceal_v your_o judgement_n of_o thing_n yet_o in_o this_o narration_n of_o your_o way_n and_o practice_n you_o carry_v your_o discourse_n so_o in_o this_o section_n as_o if_o your_o practice_n and_o way_n be_v all_o the_o same_o with_o the_o reform_a church_n but_o have_v you_o deal_v ingenious_o in_o the_o narration_n of_o the_o way_n and_o practice_n of_o your_o church_n you_o
shall_v have_v lay_v down_o particular_o as_o wherein_o and_o how_o far_o you_o agree_v with_o the_o reform_a church_n so_o also_o wherein_o you_o depart_v from_o they_o namely_o you_o shall_v have_v show_v in_o what_o you_o practise_v more_o than_o they_o do_v and_o wherein_o you_o practise_v short_a of_o they_o and_o in_o the_o thing_n you_o practise_v with_o they_o yet_o how_o you_o differ_v in_o the_o manner_n of_o they_o but_o to_o return_v to_o that_o of_o censure_n reform_a church_n practice_v beside_o admonition_n and_o before_o they_o come_v to_o excommunication_n that_o which_o be_v call_v by_o divine_n abstentio_fw-la à _fw-la sacracaena_fw-la but_o you_o do_v not_o so_o but_o conceal_v this_o but_o brethren_n why_o shall_v you_o not_o practice_v this_o especial_o consider_v how_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n the_o church_n be_v to_o receive_v the_o lord_n supper_n every_o lord_n day_n now_o suppose_v some_o member_n commit_v a_o great_a sin_n on_o the_o saturday_n which_o though_o come_n it_o be_v know_v to_o the_o minister_n or_o elder_n and_o some_o of_o the_o people_n either_o there_o may_v be_v no_o time_n to_o call_v the_o church_n to_o admonish_v the_o party_n or_o if_o there_o be_v for_o admonition_n yet_o not_o time_n sufficient_a for_o the_o party_n to_o testify_v repentance_n and_o yet_o the_o person_n may_v not_o be_v judge_v obstinate_a and_o impenitent_a as_o to_o be_v excommunicate_v but_o the_o person_n offend_v will_v come_v now_o to_o the_o lord_n table_n in_o the_o interim_n what_o will_v you_o do_v in_o this_o case_n and_o further_o the_o reform_a church_n enjoin_v the_o censure_n of_o open_a confession_n of_o sin_n and_o practice_v deposition_n of_o officer_n from_o their_o place_n which_o may_v just_o arise_v upon_o some_o case_n and_o yet_o not_o think_v it_o fit_a to_o proceed_v unto_o excommunication_n as_o yourselves_o practise_v in_o m._n ward_n case_n never_o proceed_v to_o give_v he_o up_o to_o satan_n but_o how_o lame_a and_o defective_a be_v this_o your_o narration_n about_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n only_o relate_v two_o thing_n you_o practise_v in_o common_a with_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o as_o conceal_v other_o thing_n you_o practise_v not_o with_o they_o so_o whole_o pass_v over_o in_o silence_n here_o all_o your_o different_a way_n of_o practise_v from_o all_o church_n in_o the_o way_n of_o ordination_n in_o the_o way_n of_o constitute_a church_n and_o admission_n into_o they_o and_o in_o the_o way_n of_o govern_v by_o the_o vote_n and_o suffrage_n of_o the_o whole_a body_n in_o the_o way_n of_o celebration_n the_o lord_n supper_n receive_v it_o at_o night_n etc._n etc._n in_o the_o sacrament_n of_o baptism_n with_o many_o other_o particular_n which_o whether_o it_o be_v fair_o do_v i_o appeal_v to_o the_o reader_n who_o be_v by_o this_o much_o deceive_v think_v upon_o the_o read_n of_o this_o narration_n that_o you_o have_v agree_v in_o all_o thing_n of_o worship_n officer_n censure_n with_o the_o reform_a church_n but_o to_o return_v to_o that_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n which_o you_o insist_v upon_o lay_v down_o your_o judgement_n about_o the_o subject_n of_o that_o censure_n as_o for_o your_o blessing_n god_n you_o never_o exercise_v it_o there_o may_v be_v but_o little_a ground_n for_o such_o a_o blessing_n but_o cause_n rather_o to_o be_v humble_v for_o not_o use_v it_o seasonable_o i_o judge_v have_v you_o practise_v it_o some_o revile_n evil_a speaking_n between_o many_o member_n of_o your_o church_n with_o some_o other_o offence_n may_v have_v be_v prevent_v but_o there_o be_v no_o such_o great_a cause_n to_o set_v out_o yourselves_o by_o the_o non-exercise_n of_o excommunication_n if_o what_o you_o hold_v for_o the_o matter_n of_o it_o be_v consider_v wherein_o i_o suppose_v you_o differ_v from_o all_o orthodox_n reform_a church_n and_o do_v open_a a_o wide_a gap_n to_o much_o licentiousness_n both_o in_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n what_o do_v you_o judge_v be_v it_o not_o to_o be_v put_v in_o execution_n for_o no_o other_o kind_n of_o sin_n then_o may_v evident_o be_v presume_v to_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n etc._n etc._n what_o if_o man_n practise_v polygamy_n profane_v the_o lord_n day_n by_o use_v it_o as_o they_o do_v any_o other_o day_n what_o if_o they_o do_v hold_v and_o according_o will_v have_v practise_v community_n of_o good_n among_o believer_n what_o if_o they_o maintain_v that_o christian_n ought_v not_o to_o be_v magistrate_n all_o which_o be_v not_o condemn_v in_o all_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n especial_o if_o some_o church_n may_v be_v take_v for_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o we_o have_v reason_n to_o believe_v by_o your_o manner_n of_o expression_n you_o include_v such_o neither_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n but_o rather_o be_v practise_v upon_o new_a light_n and_o as_o new_a truth_n and_o let_v i_o entreat_v you_o in_o your_o reply_n to_o explain_v your_o meaning_n what_o you_o mean_v by_o all_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o by_o the_o common_a receive_v practice_n of_o christianity_n and_o what_o by_o the_o principle_n of_o christianity_n universal_o acknowledge_v in_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n whether_o by_o church_n you_o understand_v the_o church_n only_o of_o your_o own_o communion_n and_o way_n or_o the_o church_n which_o be_v common_o call_v the_o reform_a or_o else_o all_o church_n whatsoever_o that_o be_v so_o call_v as_o beside_o your_o own_o and_o the_o reform_a the_o church_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n antinomian_o and_o such_o like_a and_o i_o have_v reason_n to_o propound_v this_o question_n your_o word_n be_v so_o doubtful_a now_o if_o your_o word_n and_o phrase_n be_v take_v in_o the_o first_o sense_n of_o your_o church_n only_o that_o those_o sin_n and_o no_o other_o be_v to_o be_v the_o subject_n of_o excommunication_n then_o great_a sin_n and_o error_n according_a to_o the_o scripture_n and_o judge_v so_o by_o orthodox_n church_n may_v escape_v excommunication_n and_o on_o the_o contrary_a many_o matter_n which_o according_a to_o scripture_n be_v neither_o sin_n nor_o error_n but_o only_o your_o church_n hold_v they_o so_o may_v have_v that_o dreadful_a sentenee_n pass_v upon_o they_o but_o if_o you_o mean_v it_o in_o the_o large_a sense_n for_o all_o kind_n of_o church_n and_o for_o the_o receive_v principle_n and_o practice_n of_o christianity_n profess_v and_o acknowledge_v in_o all_o the_o church_n then_o more_o sin_n and_o error_n so_o judge_v by_o the_o word_n by_o most_o church_n and_o by_o your_o own_o church_n too_o will_v not_o be_v acknowledge_v for_o such_o in_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n and_o so_o shall_v escape_v that_o censure_n but_o if_o you_o shall_v say_v you_o mean_v only_o the_o reformed-churche_n common_o so_o call_v and_o the_o common_a receive_v practice_n profess_v by_o they_o it_o can_v be_v so_o understand_v as_o be_v evident_a by_o your_o own_o expression_n in_o this_o passage_n about_o excommunication_n so_o that_o here_o be_v strange_a unsafe_a rule_n to_o go_v by_o in_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n and_o i_o judge_v it_o be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o new_a light_n and_o now_o truth_n of_o these_o time_n never_o yet_o give_v by_o any_o learned_a classical_a author_n how_o much_o better_o be_v it_o for_o church_n to_o make_v the_o subject_n of_o excommunication_n such_o sin_n and_o error_n which_o the_o scripture_n have_v make_v so_o and_o those_o sin_n to_o be_v agree_v upon_o by_o common_a consent_n in_o assembly_n and_o synod_n so_o draw_v up_o for_o all_o to_o know_v they_o but_o if_o it_o be_v object_v that_o this_o may_v hinder_v further_a light_n and_o a_o after_o discovery_n i_o answer_v when_o any_o thing_n more_o shall_v come_v to_o be_v find_v out_o this_o need_n be_v no_o hindrance_n unto_o any_o light_n but_o by_o the_o public_a government_n and_o common_a consent_n upon_o good_a ground_n may_v be_v add_v but_o this_o your_o judgement_n about_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n i_o fear_v be_v calculate_v for_o the_o meridian_n of_o pretend_a liberty_n of_o conscience_n now_o this_o position_n of_o hold_v the_o subject_n of_o excommunication_n to_o be_v only_o such_o sin_n and_o error_n as_o be_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n and_o the_o common_a receive_v practice_n of_o christianity_n profess_v in_o all_o church_n and_o no_o other_o to_o be_v the_o subject_n of_o it_o tend_v much_o to_o the_o tolerate_n of_o sect_n and_o heresy_n which_o in_o this_o impure_a age_n be_v by_o many_o man_n and_o by_o too_o many_o of_o the_o church_n way_n so_o studious_o promote_v against_o the_o nature_n of_o reformation_n and_o true_a zeal_n but_o if_o one_o of_o the_o great_a end_n of_o excommunication_n be_v to_o preserve_v other_o from_o
that_o there_o shall_v be_v several_a elder_n in_o every_o congregation_n who_o have_v power_n over_o they_o in_o the_o lord_n and_o we_o judge_v that_o all_o those_o precept_n obey_v your_o elder_n and_o they_o that_o be_v over_o you_o be_v to_o be_v sure_a and_o all_o grant_v it_o mean_v of_o the_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n and_o other_o elder_n that_o be_v set_v over_o they_o in_o each_o particular_a congregation_n respective_o and_o to_o be_v as_o certain_o the_o intendment_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o in_o those_o like_a command_n wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n servant_n your_o own_o governor_n to_o be_v mean_v of_o their_o several_a family_n respective_o we_o can_v not_o therefore_o but_o judge_v it_o a_o safe_a and_o a_o allow_a way_n to_o retain_v the_o government_n of_o our_o several_a congregation_n for_o matter_n of_o discipline_n within_o themselves_o to_o be_v exercise_v by_o their_o own_o elder_n whereof_o we_o have_v for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o the_o time_n we_o be_v abroad_o three_o at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o we_o be_v subject_a to_o yet_o not_o claim_v to_o ourselves_o a_o independent_a power_n in_o every_o congregation_n to_o give_v account_n or_o be_v subject_a to_o none_o other_o but_o only_o a_o full_a and_o entire_a power_n complete_a within_o ourselves_o until_o we_o shall_v be_v challenge_v to_o err_v gross_o such_o as_o corporation_n enjoy_v who_o have_v the_o power_n and_o privilege_n to_o pass_v sentence_n for_o life_n and_o death_n within_o themselves_o and_o yet_o be_v accountable_a to_o the_o state_n they_o live_v in_o but_o that_o it_o shall_v be_v the_o institution_n of_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n that_o the_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n shall_v be_v the_o first_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church_n power_n over_o each_o congregation_n so_o combine_v or_o that_o they_o can_v challenge_v and_o assume_v that_o authority_n over_o those_o church_n they_o feed_v and_o teach_v not_o ordinary_o by_o virtue_n of_o those_o forementioned_a apostolical_a precept_n be_v to_o we_o a_o question_n and_o judge_v to_o be_v a_o additament_n unto_o the_o other_o which_o therefore_o rest_v on_o those_o that_o allow_v we_o what_o we_o practise_v over_o and_o above_o to_o make_v evident_a and_o demonstrate_v and_o certain_o of_o all_o other_o the_o challenge_n of_o all_o spiritual_a power_n from_o christ_n have_v need_n have_v a_o clear_a patent_n to_o show_v for_o it_o yea_o we_o appeal_v further_o unto_o they_o that_o have_v read_v book_n whether_o until_o those_o late_a write_n of_o the_o two_o reverend_a and_o learned_a divine_n of_o scotland_n set_v forth_o after_o our_o return_n nor_o much_o more_o than_o two_o year_n since_o and_o other_o of_o no_o elder_a date_n from_o holland_n and_o one_o of_o our_o own_o divine_n more_o late_o write_v with_o much_o learning_n and_o ingenuity_n there_o have_v be_v much_o settly_a and_o direct_o or_o with_o strength_n insist_v on_o to_o prove_v that_o government_n and_o although_o assert_v and_o inculcate_v it_o they_o do_v as_o their_o opinion_n yet_o the_o full_a strength_n and_o stream_n of_o our_o non-conformists'_a write_n and_o other_o be_v spend_v rather_o in_o argument_n against_o and_o for_o the_o overthrow_v the_o episcopal_a government_n and_o the_o corruption_n that_o cleave_v to_o our_o worship_n and_o in_o maintain_v those_o several_a officer_n in_o church_n which_o christ_n have_v institute_v in_o stead_n thereof_o in_o which_o we_o full_o agree_v with_o they_o then_o in_o the_o proof_n of_o a_o combine_a classical_a presbyterial_a government_n as_o it_o be_v authoritative_o practise_v in_o the_o most_o reform_a church_n before_o i_o give_v a_o full_a answer_n to_o your_o three_o and_o last_o instance_n of_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n in_o the_o church_n i_o premise_v this_o that_o in_o all_o the_o difference_n between_o you_o and_o we_o in_o the_o principle_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n and_o government_n of_o it_o you_o give_v but_o three_o instance_n only_o wherein_o you_o practise_v more_o safe_o than_o the_o reform_a church_n although_o you_o make_v such_o a_o great_a principle_n and_o matter_n of_o it_o in_o the_o eleven_o page_n yet_o there_o be_v many_o thing_n beside_o these_o three_o wherein_o you_o practise_v different_o from_o all_o reform_a church_n as_o in_o the_o way_n of_o gather_v and_o constitute_v church_n in_o the_o way_n of_o make_v minister_n in_o the_o power_n you_o give_v the_o people_n in_o church_n government_n cum_fw-la multis_fw-la alijs_fw-la why_o do_v you_o in_o this_o narration_n pass_v by_o these_o be_v it_o not_o either_o because_o you_o be_v not_o willing_a to_o tell_v all_o you_o hold_v and_o practice_v the_o time_n be_v not_o yet_o come_v to_o open_v all_o your_o way_n and_o principle_n which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o thing_n i_o blame_v you_o for_o your_o reservedness_n in_o keep_v back_o so_o great_a a_o part_n show_v we_o only_o the_o fair_a side_n of_o that_o wherein_o you_o differ_v or_o else_o if_o you_o have_v think_v fit_a to_o have_v relate_v they_o you_o in_o your_o own_o wisdom_n question_v whether_o those_o other_o particular_n wherein_o you_o differ_v will_v bare_v so_o fair_a a_o gloss_n as_o of_o practise_v most_o safe_o and_o of_o fasten_v the_o odium_fw-la of_o additament_n so_o well_o upon_o the_o reform_a church_n as_o these_o three_o instance_n you_o give_v and_o i_o may_v here_o take_v a_o occasion_n to_o show_v further_o how_o the_o reform_a church_n practise_v more_o safe_o on_o both_o hand_n than_o you_o neither_o add_v not_o take_v away_o and_o so_o i_o may_v strong_o retort_v this_o whole_a three_o principle_n of_o you_o back_o upon_o you_o but_o that_o may_v suffice_v i_o have_v already_o hint_v of_o it_o now_o for_o this_o three_o and_o last_o instance_n of_o your_o walk_a safe_o but_o fasten_v additament_n in_o government_n and_o discipline_n on_o the_o reform_a church_n this_o be_v lay_v down_o so_o large_o as_o that_o it_o be_v a_o three_o part_n of_o your_o book_n within_o a_o very_a little_a begin_v in_o the_o twelve_o page_n and_o continue_v to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o one_o and_o twenty_o page_n contain_v in_o it_o many_o various_a thing_n i_o must_v therefore_o because_o of_o the_o intermixture_n of_o person_n and_o thing_n in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o narration_n more_o than_o in_o any_o other_o going_z forward_z and_o backward_o up_o and_o down_o that_o i_o may_v let_v nothing_o escape_v of_o moment_n i_o shall_v endeavour_v to_o draw_v out_o the_o several_a end_n of_o these_o twine_v thread_n and_o entangle_a discourse_n and_o to_o wind_v they_o up_o upon_o their_o several_a bottom_n by_o reduce_v this_o part_n of_o your_o narrative_a to_o these_o follow_a head_n whereon_o i_o may_v more_o distinct_o fasten_v my_o answer_n both_o for_o you_o and_o the_o reader_n better_a satisfaction_n 1._o you_o relate_v what_o the_o reform_a church_n do_v practice_v and_o allow_v as_o also_o what_o our_o old_a non-conformists'_a grant_v and_o what_o yourselves_o allow_v and_o grant_v about_o a_o church_n and_o the_o government_n of_o it_o 2._o you_o relate_v what_o you_o disallow_v and_o be_v not_o satisfy_v in_o 3._o you_o couch_v some_o argument_n and_o reason_n for_o your_o own_o way_n and_o practice_v and_o against_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n 4._o you_o answer_v a_o common_a objection_n bring_v against_o your_o way_n by_o lay_v down_o the_o principle_n that_o you_o hold_v in_o such_o a_o case_n as_o also_o by_o relate_v your_o practice_n occasion_v upon_o a_o offence_n commit_v in_o one_o of_o your_o church_n 5._o upon_o this_o answer_n you_o make_v a_o comparison_n between_o the_o effectualness_n of_o your_o way_n in_o what_o you_o hold_v and_o practice_v and_o what_o the_o presbyterian_o hold_v to_o reduce_v church_n and_o to_o compose_v difference_n in_o which_o comparison_n you_o make_v the_o scale_n to_o fall_v on_o your_o side_n rather_o now_o the_o reader_n must_v expect_v here_o as_o in_o other_o passage_n of_o this_o narration_n general_a doubtful_a dark_a partial_a and_o reserve_a relation_n with_o mistate_v the_o question_n which_o in_o my_o answer_n i_o shall_v observe_v and_o point_v at_o all_o along_o to_o the_o first_o of_o these_o five_o head_n wherein_o also_o be_v three_o particular_n to_o the_o first_o of_o these_o concern_v the_o reform_a church_n namely_o what_o they_o practise_v and_o allow_v i_o answer_v you_o shall_v have_v do_v well_o to_o have_v instance_a their_o practice_n what_o be_v the_o great_a matter_n govern_v in_o common_a by_o the_o presbytery_n of_o several_a congregation_n and_o what_o be_v the_o lesser_a matter_n wherein_o each_o particular_a congregation_n be_v govern_v by_o their_o particular_a elder_n as_o also_o what_o be_v those_o case_n wherein_o the_o reform_a
a_o particular_a church_n exceed_v the_o number_n of_o they_o who_o may_v ordinary_o meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n for_o the_o worship_v of_o god_n and_o the_o sanctification_n of_o the_o lordsday_n which_o if_o it_o can_v be_v prove_v overthrow_v m._n robinson_n m._n cotton_v definition_n of_o churcheâ—…_n and_o your_o principle_n who_o all_o keep_v to_o this_o as_o to_o a_o foundation_n upon_o which_o be_v build_v many_o of_o your_o other_o practice_n for_o we_o know_v at_o first_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n and_o other_o church_n be_v not_o more_o numerous_a then_o to_o exceed_v the_o limit_n of_o one_o particular_a congregation_n neither_o can_v it_o be_v expect_v that_o all_o shall_v come_v in_o at_o first_o and_o we_o know_v for_o many_o other_o church_n the_o scripture_n do_v not_o so_o particular_o relate_v the_o growth_n and_o accession_n of_o they_o but_o if_o any_o one_o instance_n can_v be_v give_v it_o be_v not_o material_a whether_o first_o or_o last_o soon_o or_o late_a whether_o in_o the_o beginning_n middle_a or_o end_n of_o the_o story_n for_o then_o your_o position_n and_o assertion_n of_o a_o particular_a visible_a church_n be_v overthrow_v for_o one_o affirmative_a overthrow_n a_o universal_a negative_a and_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o you_o take_v ordinary_o here_o as_o oppose_v to_o extraordinary_a or_o take_v ordinary_o for_o common_o as_o oppose_v to_o rare_o and_o seldom_o now_o if_o you_o mean_v it_o in_o the_o first_o sense_n that_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n and_o other_o church_n that_o may_v be_v instance_a in_o their_o case_n be_v extraordinary_a and_o though_o the_o apostle_n suffer_v they_o to_o grow_v so_o rank_n and_o numerous_a yet_o we_o may_v not_o do_v so_o now_o i_o desire_v to_o know_v of_o you_o then_o what_o be_v become_v of_o your_o first_o general_n rule_v the_o primitive_a pattern_n of_o church_n erect_v by_o the_o apostle_n and_o i_o desire_v to_o know_v what_o râ—…le_n you_o walk_v by_o and_o whether_o the_o first_o constitute_v church_n of_o all_o be_v not_o likely_a to_o be_v the_o pattern_n for_o constitute_v church_n see_v primum_fw-la in_o unoquoque_fw-la genere_fw-la est_fw-la regula_fw-la &_o mensura_fw-la reliquorum_fw-la but_o if_o you_o mean_v ordinary_o in_o the_o second_o sense_n as_o that_o there_o be_v but_o one_o only_a instance_n the_o most_o if_o not_o all_o other_o church_n be_v otherwise_o that_o you_o see_v will_v not_o by_o what_o i_o have_v above_o write_v help_v you_o beside_o what_o ever_o you_o can_v probable_o allege_v that_o the_o church_n of_o these_o time_n shall_v be_v conform_v to_o such_o church_n which_o consist_v of_o no_o great_a number_n then_o to_o make_v one_o particular_a congregation_n i_o will_v give_v more_o and_o better_a why_o the_o church_n of_o a_o nation_n and_o kingdom_n shall_v be_v conform_v to_o that_o of_o jerusalem_n as_o for_o those_o phrase_n of_o you_o which_o you_o bring_v in_o by_o way_n of_o caution_n and_o clear_v the_o way_n of_o your_o government_n within_o yourselves_o that_o you_o claim_v not_o a_o independent_a power_n to_o give_v no_o account_n or_o be_v subject_a to_o none_o other_o but_o only_o a_o full_a and_o entire_a power_n complete_a within_o yourselves_o until_o you_o shall_v be_v challenge_v to_o err_v gross_o while_o in_o these_o first_o line_n you_o deny_v independent_a power_n in_o word_n yet_o in_o your_o latter_a word_n you_o grant_v it_o claim_v a_o full_a and_o entire_a power_n complete_a within_o yourselves_o which_o be_v independent_a power_n and_o be_v the_o full_a sense_n of_o that_o which_o have_v be_v fasten_v on_o you_o by_o we_o and_o i_o will_v show_v it_o more_o full_o in_o the_o proper_a place_n when_o i_o come_v to_o the_o 23._o page_n especial_o if_o you_o take_v upon_o you_o to_o enjoy_v it_o so_o long_o until_o you_o shall_v be_v challenge_v to_o err_v gross_o i_o have_v think_v it_o have_v be_v enough_o upon_o your_o be_v challenge_v to_o err_v to_o have_v give_v a_o account_n but_o belike_o it_o must_v be_v err_v gross_o i_o suspect_v something_o lie_v under_o this_o as_o under_o many_o other_o of_o your_o phrase_n whereby_o you_o evade_v and_o hide_v yourselves_o state_v point_n wrongful_o pray_v what_o do_v you_o account_v err_v gross_o and_o whether_o do_v you_o judge_v any_o thing_n err_v gross_o in_o your_o particular_a church_n but_o such_o kind_n of_o sin_n in_o manner_n and_o such_o kind_n of_o opinion_n as_o be_v against_o the_o church_n know_v light_n and_o the_o common_a receive_v practice_n and_o principle_n of_o christianity_n profess_v by_o the_o church_n themselves_o and_o universal_o acknowledge_v in_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n and_o no_o other_o sin_n to_o be_v the_o ground_n of_o give_v a_o account_n as_o they_o be_v not_o of_o excommunication_n with_o you_o page_z 9_o both_o be_v of_o equal_a latitude_n sin_n of_o particular_a person_n to_o a_o church_n and_o the_o sin_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n to_o a_o community_n of_o church_n and_o if_o that_o be_v your_o meaning_n you_o shall_v be_v independent_a enough_o and_o then_o further_o i_o demand_v of_o you_o how_o you_o can_v use_v those_o phrase_n of_o not_o claim_v a_o power_n to_o be_v subject_a to_o none_o other_o i_o confess_v you_o may_v better_o use_v those_o word_n of_o give_v account_n hold_v counsel_v and_o advise_v by_o sister-churche_n but_o as_o for_o that_o phrase_n of_o subject_v to_o none_o other_o i_o understand_v it_o not_o what_o censure_n will_v your_o church_n subject_n unto_o from_o other_o church_n will_v they_o yield_v to_o the_o deposition_n of_o their_o minister_n excommunication_n of_o their_o member_n etc._n etc._n or_o how_o can_v there_o be_v any_o subjection_n to_o other_o church_n in_o your_o principle_n the_o phrase_n be_v take_v proper_o and_o usual_o when_o as_o all_o along_o you_o plead_v against_o authoritative_a presbyterial_a power_n so_o oft_o express_v in_o page_n 15_o 16._o and_o be_v the_o great_a point_n in_o controversy_n in_o this_o instance_n betwixt_o you_o and_o the_o presbyterian_o how_o oft_o do_v you_o deny_v the_o subjection_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n to_o all_o other_o church_n and_o be_v against_o all_o subject_n to_o censure_n yea_o to_o be_v subject_v as_o to_o counsel_n and_o advice_n from_o the_o other_o church_n as_o to_o that_o phrase_n your_o own_o elder_n whereof_o you_o have_v three_o at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o you_o be_v subject_a to_o in_o which_o you_o seem_v to_o hold_v out_o the_o government_n and_o power_n of_o the_o church_n to_o lie_v in_o the_o elder_n and_o not_o in_o the_o body_n of_o the_o congregation_n i_o desire_v you_o to_o satisfy_v i_o in_o this_o point_n whether_o all_o of_o you_o hold_v the_o power_n and_o authority_n to_o be_v in_o the_o elder_n or_o in_o the_o church_n and_o whether_o by_o go_v tell_v the_o church_n be_v mean_v tell_v the_o elder_n or_o the_o body_n officer_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o whether_o according_a to_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o churchway_n in_o m._n robinson_n work_n and_o the_o book_n of_o new-england_n and_o m._n bridges_n own_o letter_n unless_o some_o of_o you_o have_v late_o see_v another_o light_n you_o may_v have_v true_o write_v three_o elder_n at_o least_o in_o every_o congregation_n to_o who_o the_o congregation_n be_v subject_a or_o else_o three_o elder_n who_o be_v subject_a to_o their_o own_o congregation_n and_o this_o shall_v suffice_v for_o answer_v to_o the_o first_o head_n of_o the_o five_o concern_v the_o three_o instance_n to_o the_o second_o head_n under_o this_o three_o instance_n what_o you_o be_v not_o satisfy_v in_o nor_o can_v allow_v 1._o about_o particular_a visible_a church_n that_o you_o can_v not_o imagine_v in_o every_o city_n where_o the_o apostle_n come_v the_o number_n of_o the_o convert_n do_v or_o shall_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n 2._o about_o the_o government_n of_o it_o that_o it_o shall_v be_v the_o institution_n of_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n that_o the_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n shall_v be_v the_o first_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church_n power_n over_o each_o congregation_n so_o combine_v or_o that_o they_o can_v challenge_v and_o assume_v that_o authority_n over_o those_o church_n they_o teach_v not_o etc._n etc._n in_o both_o these_o you_o deal_v fallacious_o and_o relate_v the_o controversy_n to_o your_o advantage_n and_o our_o disadvantage_n for_o the_o first_o whereas_o have_v you_o deal_v ingenuous_o your_o word_n shall_v have_v be_v these_o for_o that_o in_o any_o city_n where_o the_o apostle_n come_v the_o number_n of_o convert_n do_v or_o shall_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n you_o
put_v it_o in_o every_o city_n which_o we_o affirm_v not_o nor_o need_v not_o to_o carry_v the_o cause_n against_o you_o for_o if_o we_o can_v prove_v it_o in_o some_o city_n or_o in_o any_o city_n that_o the_o number_n of_o convert_v do_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n than_o we_o prove_v the_o scripture_n hold_v out_o a_o presbyterial_a classical_a church_n and_o overthrow_v your_o grand_a principle_n about_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o reader_n observe_v the_o fallacy_n of_o these_o apologist_n how_o in_o the_o manner_n of_o their_o expression_n and_o as_o they_o propound_v it_o though_o the_o thing_n may_v be_v true_a yet_o they_o alter_v quite_o the_o state_n of_o the_o question_n for_o though_o in_o every_o city_n where_o the_o apostle_n come_v you_o can_v not_o imagine_v the_o number_n of_o convert_v shall_v be_v so_o great_a nor_o we_o neither_o yet_o in_o some_o city_n you_o may_v have_v well_o imagine_v it_o as_o in_o jerusalem_n and_o rome_n but_o brethren_n why_o will_v you_o who_o be_v scholar_n and_o without_o question_n weigh_v well_o all_o your_o word_n and_o manner_n of_o expression_n have_v so_o many_o head_n in_o the_o frame_n this_o apology_n deal_v thus_o with_o the_o reader_n in_o a_o narration_n speak_v true_o though_o you_o do_v not_o imagine_v the_o number_n of_o convert_v be_v so_o many_o in_o every_o city_n yet_o do_v not_o you_o imagine_v the_o number_n may_v be_v so_o great_a in_o some_o city_n as_o in_o jerusalem_n and_o if_o still_o you_o will_v not_o imagine_v it_o for_o the_o help_a of_o your_o imagination_n consider_v whether_o you_o have_v not_o more_o reason_n if_o not_o infallible_a and_o necessary_a yet_o probable_a and_o rational_a to_o imagine_v the_o church_n of_o hiâ—…rusalem_n consist_v of_o so_o many_o thousand_o of_o people_n and_o have_v so_o many_o minister_n to_o preach_v unto_o they_o as_o 12._o apostle_n beside_o the_o seventy_o disciple_n and_o they_o meeting_n in_o so_o many_o distinct_a house_n and_o not_o have_v the_o power_n and_o command_v of_o any_o public_a large_a place_n or_o liberty_n through_o those_o time_n to_o fit_v it_o for_o such_o multitude_n to_o hear_v the_o word_n join_v in_o prayer_n and_o sacrament_n shall_v have_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n rather_o than_o to_o imagine_v all_o those_o shall_v make_v but_o one_o stand_a congregation_n to_o meet_v in_o one_o place_n and_o room_n 2._o it_o be_v state_v otherwise_o carry_v high_a than_o need_n be_v grant_v and_o that_o in_o all_o your_o expression_n of_o it_o for_o the_o scripture_n may_v hold_v forth_o a_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n for_o government_n and_o yet_o not_o be_v the_o institution_n of_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n it_o may_v be_v allow_v and_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n have_v a_o jus_o divinum_fw-la permissivum_fw-la upon_o general_a rule_n of_o the_o word_n and_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n and_o of_o prudence_n yea_o and_o may_v have_v some_o example_n of_o it_o and_o yet_o not_o amount_v to_o a_o divine_a institution_n many_o who_o hold_v the_o thing_n will_v not_o in_o those_o phrase_n own_o it_o 2._o these_o elder_n of_o many_o congregation_n may_v have_v a_o power_n of_o government_n in_o common_a over_o all_o and_o yet_o not_o be_v the_o first_o seat_n of_o church-power_n for_o it_o be_v not_o deny_v but_o some_o particular_a congregation_n have_v a_o competent_a number_n of_o presbyter_n both_o have_v and_o may_v exercise_v church-power_n before_o any_o such_o combination_n be_v or_o can_v be_v 3._o these_o elder_n combine_v may_v have_v church-power_n to_o rule_v these_o congregation_n so_o combine_v and_o yet_o not_o have_v a_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church-power_n but_o a_o power_n liable_a to_o appeal_n unto_o synod_n and_o general_a assembly_n the_o question_n between_o you_o and_o we_o be_v whether_o class_n or_o presbytery_n have_v power_n in_o ecclesiastical_a matter_n as_o ordination_n excommunication_n etc._n etc._n within_o the_o number_n of_o congregation_n so_o combine_v or_o may_v by_o warrant_n from_o the_o word_n exercise_v any_o power_n in_o church_n matter_n but_o in_o their_o own_o particular_a congregation_n the_o question_n be_v not_o whether_o it_o be_v the_o institution_n of_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n that_o the_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n shall_v be_v the_o first_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church_n power_n as_o you_o state_n it_o you_o strange_o mistate_v the_o question_n to_o lay_v it_o down_o in_o these_o word_n that_o the_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n shall_v be_v the_o first_o seat_n of_o church-power_n over_o each_o congregation_n so_o combine_v whereas_o the_o opinion_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n be_v quite_o contrary_a not_o hold_v class_n and_o synod_n to_o be_v the_o first_o subject_n of_o church-power_n from_o whence_o it_o be_v consequent_o derive_v and_o confer_v upon_o particular_a church_n but_o that_o particular_a congregation_n have_v power_n in_o themselves_o and_o among_o themselves_o equal_a power_n do_v in_o class_n and_o synod_n confer_v and_o execute_v in_o common_a their_o own_o power_n even_o as_o those_o who_o be_v colleague_n and_o equal_a member_n of_o some_o political_a society_n 4._o the_o power_n which_o particular_a officer_n and_o presbyter_n of_o combine_a congregation_n may_v have_v over_o particular_a member_n of_o those_o church_n they_o teach_v not_o ordinary_o do_v not_o amount_v to_o the_o challenge_v and_o assume_v a_o authority_n over_o those_o church_n they_o feed_v and_o teach_v not_o your_o expression_n be_v a_o mistake_n it_o be_v not_o a_o assume_v a_o power_n and_o authority_n by_o some_o over_o other_o church_n but_o it_o be_v a_o power_n of_o the_o whole_a and_o of_o themselves_o too_o even_o those_o particular_a church_n in_o their_o officer_n over_o particular_a member_n as_o in_o the_o parliament_n no_o member_n have_v power_n over_o another_o more_o than_o another_o over_o he_o but_o the_o whole_n have_v power_n over_o all_o the_o particular_n for_o the_o clear_n of_o which_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n speak_v full_o in_o their_o reformation_n of_o church_n government_n in_o scotland_n clear_v page_n 24_o 25._o and_o for_o the_o close_a of_o this_o second_o head_n wherein_o you_o stand_v upon_o what_o you_o be_v not_o satisfy_v in_o but_o disallow_v if_o you_o will_v impartial_o consider_v that_o the_o scripture_n in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o epistle_n do_v as_o well_o hold_v out_o ground_n yea_o and_o more_o indubitable_a as_o i_o shall_v make_v evident_a in_o a_o particular_a tractate_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n that_o the_o first_o particular_a church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n consist_v of_o more_o congregation_n and_o distinct_a meet_v place_n then_o of_o one_o only_a congregation_n you_o will_v acknowledge_v that_o where_o there_o be_v many_o presbyter_n to_o feed_v and_o rule_v and_o many_o more_o christian_n live_v in_o a_o vicinity_n then_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n it_o be_v not_o the_o most_o safe_a and_o allow_a way_n to_o retain_v the_o government_n of_o each_o congregation_n thus_o within_o themselves_o neither_o that_o it_o be_v a_o additament_n in_o the_o reform_a church_n to_o practice_v so_o but_o rather_o a_o additament_n on_o their_o part_n who_o live_v in_o a_o city_n where_o the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o numerous_a as_o to_o make_v many_o meet_v place_n there_o to_o make_v these_o place_n and_o person_n such_o distinct_a church_n as_o to_o manage_v all_o thing_n each_o one_o within_o themselves_o and_o not_o to_o grow_v into_o one_o for_o government_n and_o i_o be_o so_o far_o verse_v in_o these_o controversy_n that_o i_o challenge_v you_o five_o to_o give_v i_o a_o example_n of_o any_o city_n where_o it_o be_v probable_a the_o multitude_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o numerous_a as_o to_o make_v many_o meet_v place_n that_o ever_o they_o be_v govern_v and_o rule_v but_o in_o common_a or_o ever_o call_v church_n but_o church_n still_o call_v the_o church_n of_o corinth_n and_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n i_o foresee_v only_o one_o instance_n that_o can_v be_v probable_o allege_v that_o in_o rom._n 16._o 1._o of_o the_o church_n which_o be_v at_o cenchrea_n which_o cenchrea_n be_v a_o part_n of_o corinth_n and_o near_a to_o corinth_n yet_o name_v a_o church_n as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n but_o the_o insufficiency_n of_o that_o ground_n i_o shall_v at_o large_a show_n in_o that_o tractate_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n which_o primitive_a practice_n have_v so_o far_o wrought_v with_o some_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n as_o those_o of_o holland_n that_o in_o great_a city_n where_o the_o number_n of_o their_o people_n
those_o congregation_n in_o all_o weighty_a matter_n and_o great_a case_n that_o fall_v out_o those_o precept_n of_o obey_v your_o elder_n and_o they_o that_o be_v over_o you_o reach_v to_o all_o the_o elder_n as_o well_o as_o to_o those_o that_o particular_o and_o ordinary_o preach_v to_o they_o and_o however_o it_o be_v true_a such_o place_n be_v especial_o understand_v of_o they_o yet_o not_o of_o they_o only_o and_o alone_o as_o exclude_v other_o as_o your_o argument_n carry_v it_o but_z including_z other_o who_o be_v over_o they_o too_o and_o to_o answer_v you_o by_o your_o own_o instance_n give_v of_o servant_n obey_v your_o own_o governor_n as_o by_o virtue_n of_o that_o text_n particular_a servant_n be_v to_o obey_v their_o own_o master_n so_o by_o the_o same_o text_n each_o particular_a servant_n and_o all_o of_o they_o together_o of_o such_o a_o company_n and_o hall_n in_o the_o thing_n and_o rule_n of_o their_o call_n for_o the_o public_a good_a of_o that_o society_n they_o be_v to_o obey_v and_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o whole_a company_n namely_o the_o particular_a master_n of_o other_o servant_n as_o to_o their_o own_o master_n yea_o and_o to_o submit_v to_o the_o common_a order_n and_o good_a rule_n of_o such_o a_o hall_n and_o corporation_n though_o their_o particular_a master_n do_v not_o vote_n for_o but_o against_o they_o 3._o those_o ruler_n who_o be_v of_o the_o presbytery_n be_v not_o foreign_a nor_o extrinsicall_a to_o the_o congregation_n but_o intrinsicall_a and_o natural_a as_o well_o as_o their_o particular_a elder_n so_o that_o another_o without_o themselves_o do_v not_o bear_v rule_n over_o they_o but_o all_o of_o they_o together_o by_o common_a consent_n do_v rule_v every_o one_o which_o be_v a_o most_o mild_a and_o free_a form_n of_o church_n government_n for_o the_o proof_n of_o which_o i_o shall_v not_o enlarge_v but_o refer_v you_o for_o satisfaction_n to_o what_o be_v say_v to_o this_o point_n both_o by_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n and_o by_o some_o church_n from_o beyond_o the_o 25._o sea_n in_o their_o letter_n upon_o occasion_n of_o your_o apology_n 4._o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a way_n of_o reason_v from_o the_o economical_a relation_n and_o government_n of_o husband_n over_o wife_n and_o father_n over_o child_n and_o master_n over_o servant_n and_o their_o subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o husband_n etc._n etc._n unto_o the_o ecclesiastical_a and_o political_a because_o it_o be_v not_o to_o speak_v ad_fw-la idem_fw-la for_o in_o each_o of_o these_o the_o way_n of_o government_n be_v different_a for_o instance_n in_o those_o economical_a relation_n a_o woman_n can_v have_v but_o one_o husband_n one_o man_n can_v be_v but_o her_o husband_n and_o one_o man_n a_o father_n and_o the_o wife_n and_o child_n can_v pelinquish_v they_o diâ—…avow_v they_o though_o very_o bad_a nor_o deny_v those_o duty_n they_o owe_v they_o in_o those_o relation_n though_o censure_v by_o the_o church_n but_o they_o be_v to_o obey_v they_o which_o yet_o hold_v not_o in_o the_o member_n of_o a_o particular_a congregation_n to_o elder_n and_o minister_n that_o be_v unworthy_a and_o excommunicate_v that_o the_o member_n must_v be_v subject_a to_o they_o the_o royalist_n that_o argue_v so_o from_o that_o subjection_n and_o obedience_n which_o child_n owe_v their_o father_n to_o subject_n subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o prince_n and_o the_o hierarchicall_a man_n that_o argue_v from_o what_o child_n owe_v to_o natural_a parent_n though_o wicked_a and_o ungodly_a to_o what_o the_o people_n owe_v to_o wicked_a minister_n be_v answer_v at_o large_a and_o you_o know_v what_o mr_n robinson_n and_o many_o of_o your_o way_n say_v to_o that_o now_o the_o same_o will_v serve_v to_o answer_v your_o comparison_n that_o the_o place_n hold_v not_o alike_o between_o the_o people_n and_o the_o elder_n and_o the_o wife_n and_o their_o husband_n mr_n baynes_n answer_v in_o the_o last_o page_n of_o his_o diocesan_n trial_n that_o which_o be_v object_v touch_v pastor_n and_o father_n that_o the_o similitude_n hold_v not_o in_o all_o thing_n parent_n and_o shepherd_n be_v absolute_o parent_n and_o shepherd_n be_v they_o good_a or_o evil_a but_o spiritual_a parent_n be_v no_o long_o so_o than_o they_o do_v according_o behave_v themselves_o 5._o the_o very_a instance_n you_o give_v of_o wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n and_o servant_n your_o own_o governor_n do_v not_o therefore_o only_o tie_v they_o to_o civil_a subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o husband_n and_o master_n exempt_n they_o from_o subjection_n to_o any_o other_o but_o they_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o magistrate_n in_o the_o commonwealth_n and_o to_o common-lawe_n notwithstanding_o so_o neither_o do_v the_o scripture_n obey_v your_o elder_n etc._n etc._n suppose_v the_o full_a latitude_n of_o those_o scripture_n be_v of_o the_o elder_n of_o particular_a congregation_n forbid_v or_o exempt_a man_n from_o that_o ecclesiastical_a subjection_n and_o obedience_n which_o concern_v they_o as_o they_o stand_v in_o relation_n to_o the_o community_n to_o the_o three_o reason_n hint_v for_o yourselves_o and_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n that_o the_o elder_n of_o other_o congregation_n shall_v have_v power_n and_o rule_v over_o church_n which_o they_o do_v not_o teach_v and_o feed_v ordinary_o by_o virtue_n of_o those_o forementioned_a precept_n be_v to_o you_o a_o question_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v suppose_v three_o or_o four_o congregation_n in_o one_o great_a town_n shall_v have_v minister_n in_o common_a to_o teach_v and_o feed_v they_o ordinary_o as_o in_o holland_n will_v you_o in_o such_o a_o case_n yield_v to_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n if_o you_o say_v you_o will_v than_o the_o case_n be_v determine_v for_o we_o and_o thus_o i_o judge_v it_o be_v in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n in_o primitive_a church_n but_o if_o you_o answer_v you_o will_v not_o yield_v to_o such_o a_o classical_a government_n than_o i_o reply_v it_o be_v not_o for_o want_v of_o such_o minister_n teach_v you_o and_o feed_v ordinary_o that_o you_o will_v not_o obey_v but_o upon_o some_o other_o ground_n and_o then_o this_o argument_n be_v lose_v second_o i_o answer_v your_o roll_a elder_n do_v not_o feed_v nor_o teach_v you_o ordinary_o but_o only_o govern_v you_o and_o yet_o by_o virtue_n of_o those_o forementioned_a precept_n you_o obey_v they_o and_o be_v subject_a to_o they_o so_o that_o this_o be_v no_o good_a argument_n against_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o have_v power_n and_o authority_n over_o those_o who_o man_n teach_v not_o ordinary_o for_o than_o what_o become_v of_o the_o rule_v elder_n in_o the_o church_n who_o be_v neither_o pastor_n nor_o teacher_n to_o the_o four_o reason_n draw_v from_o corporation_n who_o have_v the_o power_n and_o privilege_n of_o life_n and_o death_n within_o themselves_o which_o kind_n of_o power_n you_o will_v have_v i_o answer_v you_o can_v frame_v a_o good_a argunment_n from_o corporation_n and_o civil_a power_n to_o body_n ecclesiastical_a and_o spiritual_a power_n and_o i_o may_v give_v you_o the_o many_o difference_n allege_v by_o yourselves_o between_o civil_a power_n and_o ecclesiastical_a and_o the_o different_a manner_n of_o dispensation_n but_o i_o must_v not_o enlarge_v here_o only_o refer_v you_o for_o this_o to_o separat_fw-la mr_n robinson_n church_n mr_n burrough_n and_o theol._n dr_n ames_n 2._o corporation_n go_v according_a to_o the_o law_n of_o the_o land_n and_o to_o their_o charter_n agree_v upon_o and_o make_v in_o parliament_n they_o make_v not_o themselves_o a_o corporation_n nor_o go_v not_o according_a to_o private_a rule_n and_o order_n to_o pass_v sentence_n of_o death_n etc._n etc._n but_o be_v rule_v though_o they_o have_v officer_n as_o major_a and_o alderman_n by_o the_o law_n of_o the_o land_n and_o so_o go_v they_o may_v more_o safe_o have_v a_o power_n within_o themselves_o but_o your_o particular_a congregation_n set_v up_o yourselves_o without_o leave_n of_o magistrate_n or_o minister_n not_o proceed_v upon_o common_a rule_n of_o government_n in_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n etc._n etc._n agree_v by_o synod_n but_o only_o upon_o your_o own_o will_n and_o private_a rule_n which_o you_o have_v fancy_v be_v lay_v down_o in_o scripture_n 3._o corporation_n though_o they_o judge_v their_o member_n and_o pass_v sentence_n of_o life_n and_o death_n within_o themselves_o yet_o sometime_o nay_o often_o in_o great_a case_n and_o offence_n their_o inhabitant_n be_v try_v and_o sentence_n pass_v upon_o they_o in_o other_o court_n of_o justice_n and_o that_o when_o they_o will_v proceed_v against_o they_o yet_o the_o matter_n be_v carry_v high_a to_o be_v try_v if_o you_o will_v grant_v this_o in_o the_o corporation_n to_o your_o congregation_n that_o assembly_n and_o synod_n may_v judge_v and_o pass_v sentence_n upon_o your_o member_n as_o oft_o
be_v most_o willing_a to_o have_v recourse_n unto_o for_o our_o part_n we_o see_v not_o then_o nor_o do_v yet_o see_v and_o likewise_o we_o do_v then_o suppose_v and_o do_v yet_o that_o this_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v unto_o other_o church_n offend_v together_o with_o this_o other_o that_o it_o be_v a_o command_n from_o christ_n enjoin_v to_o church_n that_o be_v final_o offend_v to_o pronounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n and_o withdraw_n from_o they_o while_o impenitent_a ac_fw-la unworthy_a to_o hold_v forth_o the_o name_n of_o christ_n these_o principle_n be_v receive_v and_o general_o acknowledge_v by_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n to_o be_v a_o mutual_a duty_n as_o strict_o enjoin_v they_o by_o christ_n as_o any_o other_o that_o these_o will_v be_v as_o effectual_a mean_n through_o the_o blessing_n of_o christ_n to_o awe_v and_o preserve_v church_n and_o their_o elder_n in_o their_o duty_n as_o that_o other_o of_o claim_n to_o a_o authoritative_a power_n ecclesiastical_a to_o excommunicate_v other_o church_n or_o their_o elder_n offend_v for_o if_o the_o one_o be_v compare_v with_o the_o other_o in_o a_o mere_a ecclesiastical_a notion_n that_o of_o excommunication_n pretend_v have_v but_o this_o more_o in_o it_o that_o it_o be_v a_o deliver_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o their_o elder_n offend_v unto_o satan_n for_o which_o we_o know_v no_o warrant_n in_o the_o scripture_n that_o church_n shall_v have_v such_o a_o power_n over_o other_o church_n and_o then_o as_o for_o the_o bind_a obligation_n both_o of_o the_o one_o way_n and_o the_o other_o it_o can_v be_v suppose_v to_o lie_v but_o in_o these_o two_o thing_n first_o in_o a_o warrant_n and_o injunction_n give_v by_o christ_n to_o his_o church_n to_o put_v either_o the_o one_o or_o the_o other_o into_o execution_n and_o second_o that_o man_n conscience_n be_v according_o take_v therewith_o so_o as_o to_o subject_v themselves_o whether_o unto_o the_o one_o way_n or_o the_o other_o for_o suppose_v that_o other_o principle_n of_o a_o authoritative_a power_n in_o the_o great_a part_n of_o church_n combine_v to_o excommunicate_v other_o church_n etc._n etc._n to_o be_v the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n yet_o unless_o it_o do_v take_v hold_v of_o man_n conscience_n and_o be_v receive_v among_o all_o church_n the_o offend_a church_n will_v state_n all_o such_o excommunication_n as_o much_o as_o they_o may_v be_v suppose_v to_o do_v our_o way_n of_o protestation_n and_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n on_o the_o other_o side_n let_v this_o way_n of_o we_o be_v but_o as_o strong_o entertain_v as_o that_o which_o be_v the_o way_n and_o command_v of_o christ_n and_o upon_o all_o occasion_n be_v heedful_o put_v in_o execution_n it_o will_v awe_v man_n conscience_n as_o much_o and_o produce_v the_o same_o effect_n and_o if_o the_o magistrate_n power_n to_o which_o we_o give_v as_o much_o and_o as_o we_o think_v more_o than_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v do_v but_o assist_v and_o back_o the_o sentence_n of_o other_o church_n denounce_v this_o non-communion_n against_o church_n miscarry_v according_a to_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o crime_n as_o they_o judge_v meet_v and_o as_o they_o will_v the_o sentence_n of_o church_n excommunicate_v other_o church_n in_o such_o case_n upon_o their_o own_o particular_a judgement_n of_o the_o cause_n then_o without_o all_o controversy_n this_o our_o way_n of_o church_n proceed_v will_v be_v every_o way_n as_o effectual_a as_o their_o other_o can_v be_v suppose_v to_o be_v and_o we_o be_v sure_a more_o brotherly_a and_o morâ—…_n suit_v to_o that_o liberty_n and_o equality_n christ_n have_v endow_v his_o church_n with_o but_o without_o the_o magistrate_n interpose_v their_o authority_n their_o way_n of_o proceed_v will_v be_v as_o ineffectual_a as_o we_o and_o more_o liable_a to_o contempt_n by_o how_o much_o it_o be_v pretend_v to_o be_v more_o authoritative_a and_o to_o inflict_v a_o more_o dreadful_a punishment_n which_o carnal_a spirit_n be_v seldom_o sensible_a of_o this_o for_o our_o judgement_n and_o for_o a_o real_a evidence_n and_o demonstration_n both_o that_o this_o be_v then_o our_o judgement_n as_o likewise_o for_o a_o instance_n of_o the_o effectual_a success_n of_o such_o a_o course_n hold_v by_o church_n in_o such_o case_n our_o own_o practice_n and_o the_o blessing_n of_o god_n thereon_o may_v plead_v and_o testify_v for_o we_o to_o all_o the_o world_n the_o manage_n of_o this_o transaction_n in_o brief_n be_v this_o that_o church_n which_o with_o other_o be_v most_o scandalize_v do_v by_o letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n require_v of_o the_o church_n suppose_v to_o be_v offend_v in_o the_o name_n and_o for_o the_o vindication_n of_o the_o honour_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o relieve_v the_o party_n wrong_v to_o yield_v a_o full_a and_o public_a hear_n before_o all_o the_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n or_o any_o other_o whosoever_o offend_v of_o what_o they_o can_v give_v in_o charge_n against_o their_o proceed_n in_o that_o deposition_n of_o their_o minister_n and_o to_o subject_n themselves_o to_o a_o open_a trial_n and_o review_v of_o all_o those_o forepast_a carriage_n that_o concern_v that_o particular_a which_o they_o most_o cheerful_o and_o ready_o according_a to_o the_o forementioned_a principle_n submit_v unto_o in_o a_o place_n and_o state_n where_o no_o outward_a violence_n or_o any_o other_o external_a authority_n either_o civil_a or_o ecclesiastical_a will_v have_v enforce_v they_o thereunto_o and_o according_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n offend_v with_o other_o two_o gentleman_n of_o much_o worth_n wisdom_n and_o piety_n member_n thereof_o be_v send_v as_o messenger_n from_o that_o church_n and_o at_o the_o introduction_n and_o entrance_v into_o that_o solemn_a assembly_n the_o solemnity_n of_o which_o have_v leave_v as_o deep_a a_o impression_n upon_o our_o heart_n of_o christ_n dreadful_a presence_n as_o ever_o any_o we_o have_v be_v present_a at_o it_o be_v open_o and_o public_o process_v in_o a_o speech_n that_o be_v the_o preface_n to_o that_o discussion_n to_o this_o effect_n that_o it_o be_v the_o most_o to_o be_v abhor_v maxim_n that_o any_o religion_n have_v ever_o make_v profession_n of_o and_o therefore_o of_o all_o other_o the_o most_o contradictory_n and_o dishonourable_a unto_o that_o of_o christianity_n that_o a_o single_a and_o particular_a society_n of_o man_n profess_v the_o name_n of_o christ_n and_o pretend_v to_o be_v endow_v with_o a_o power_n from_o christ_n to_o judge_v they_o that_o be_v of_o the_o same_o body_n and_o society_n within_o themselves_o shall_v further_o arrogate_v unto_o themselves_o a_o exemption_n from_o give_v account_n or_o be_v censurable_a by_o any_o other_o either_o christian_a magistrate_n above_o they_o or_o neighbour_n church_n about_o they_o so_o far_o be_v our_o judgement_n from_o that_o independent_a liberty_n that_o be_v impute_v to_o we_o then_o when_o we_o have_v least_o dependency_n on_o this_o kingdom_n or_o so_o much_o as_o hope_n ever_o to_o abide_v therein_o in_o peace_n and_o for_o the_o issue_n and_o success_n of_o this_o agitation_n after_o there_o have_v be_v for_o many_o day_n as_o judiciary_n and_o full_a a_o charge_n trial_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n open_o afore_o all_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n as_o can_v be_v expect_v in_o any_o court_n where_o authority_n enjoin_v it_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v do_v as_o public_o acknowledge_v their_o sinful_a aberration_n in_o it_o restore_v their_o minister_n to_o his_o place_n again_o and_o order_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o afore_o god_n and_o man_n for_o their_o sinful_a carriage_n in_o it_o and_o the_o party_n also_o which_o have_v be_v depose_v do_v acknowledge_v to_o that_o church_n wherein_o he_o have_v likewise_o sin_v in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n be_v contain_v the_o four_o and_o five_o of_o those_o five_o forementioned_a head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o i_o shall_v answer_v to_o what_o you_o say_v upon_o your_o three_o and_o last_o instance_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n in_o the_o church_n the_o scope_n of_o which_o four_o head_n be_v to_o answer_v and_o take_v off_o a_o common_a objection_n bring_v against_o your_o way_n the_o strength_n of_o which_o answer_n be_v make_v up_o of_o those_o part_n and_o stand_v in_o these_o particular_n first_o in_o lay_v down_o your_o own_o principle_n which_o you_o hold_v in_o such_o a_o case_n second_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o those_o principle_n occasion_v upon_o a_o offence_n commit_v in_o one_o of_o your_o church_n which_o story_n you_o brief_o relate_v three_o the_o success_n and_o effectualness_n of_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o your_o principle_n illustrate_v by_o a_o instance_n now_o for_o that_o common_a
which_o be_v not_o your_o case_n deny_v authoritative_a power_n but_o if_o you_o say_v this_o text_n be_v mean_v secondary_o of_o all_o church_n and_o christian_n though_o they_o have_v not_o authoritative_a power_n i_o grant_v it_o but_o than_o it_o be_v in_o way_n suitable_a which_o the_o word_n of_o god_n give_v warrant_n and_o allowance_n for_o as_o in_o reprove_v mourn_a for_o the_o sin_n etc._n etc._n which_o must_v be_v show_v in_o some_o other_o scripture_n for_o else_o the_o presbyterian_o may_v pretend_v by_o virtue_n of_o this_o text_n that_o they_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v partaker_n of_o other_o man_n sin_n that_o they_o may_v censure_v depose_v excommunicate_a member_n of_o other_o church_n who_o be_v suffer_v to_o go_v on_o in_o sin_n better_a than_o you_o can_v draw_v from_o this_o text_n that_o you_o may_v call_v not_o only_o particular_a member_n but_o whole_a church_n to_o a_o account_n examine_v they_o and_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o they_o but_o in_o a_o word_n brother_n let_v i_o tell_v you_o if_o such_o general_a text_n as_o these_o that_o may_v be_v apply_v to_o any_o course_n and_o way_n conceive_v by_o man_n in_o their_o own_o brain_n to_o hinder_v sin_n and_o reduce_v from_o offence_n will_v serve_v turn_n for_o church_n government_n and_o for_o remedy_n to_o reduce_v church_n than_o we_o can_v give_v you_o beside_o your_o own_o two_o text_n quote_v here_o for_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o non-communion_n many_o other_o such_o and_o more_o probable_a too_o for_o the_o authoritative_a power_n of_o presbytery_n and_o sinod_n as_o that_o in_o 1_o cor._n 14._o 22._o and_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o prophet_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o prophet_n but_o we_o be_v not_o so_o hard_o put_v to_o it_o there_o be_v particular_a instance_n and_o example_n if_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o answer_n to_o such_o a_o narration_n will_v permit_v i_o to_o insist_v at_o large_a that_o prove_v the_o point_n in_o difference_n namely_o of_o act_n of_o power_n exercise_v by_o church_n in_o common_a as_o in_o election_n determination_n and_o imposition_n upon_o difference_n and_o controversy_n as_o act_n 15._o 2._o 4_o 6_o 7_o 13_o 22_o 23_o 24_o 28_o 29._o act_n 16._o 4_o 5._o 2_o corinih_n 8._o 18_o 19_o but_o let_v the_o indifferent_a reader_n judge_v by_o this_o which_o have_v be_v say_v whether_o the_o reform_a church_n or_o the_o independent_a practice_n most_o safe_o there_o be_v a_o ground_n as_o yourselves_o confess_v for_o the_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n such_o a_o sentence_n you_o acknowledge_v in_o particular_a church_n and_o practice_v it_o and_o such_o a_o sentence_n have_v be_v decree_v and_o pass_v upon_o member_n of_o church_n by_o those_o who_o be_v not_o member_n of_o those_o church_n as_o the_o scripture_n be_v clear_a for_o it_o 1_o tim._n 1._o 19_o 20._o but_o on_o the_o other_o hand_n it_o be_v not_o grant_v that_o the_o scripture_n give_v any_o ground_n of_o pronounce_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o whole_a church_n or_o do_v allow_v any_o such_o practice_n of_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n unto_o all_o church_n against_o whole_a church_n this_o i_o utter_o deny_v and_o your_o scripture_n prove_v they_o not_o and_o i_o wonder_v how_o you_o dare_v call_v it_o the_o command_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o way_n of_o christ_n as_o you_o do_v in_o page_n 18_o 19_o and_o brethren_n beside_o that_o the_o scripture_n give_v neither_o precept_n nor_o example_n for_o your_o way_n of_o non-communion_n consider_v whether_o the_o scripture_n give_v not_o ground_n rather_o to_o the_o contrary_a namely_o against_o a_o particular_a church_n withdraw_v and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n with_o whole_a church_n upon_o a_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n for_o let_v i_o ask_v you_o may_v not_o such_o a_o church_n or_o church_n be_v true_a church_n for_o all_o this_o continue_v in_o their_o office_n upon_o mistake_a partiality_n and_o notwithstanding_o all_o the_o light_a a_o particular_a church_n can_v give_v they_o be_v unsatisfied_a now_o if_o a_o particular_a man_n may_v not_o separate_v nor_o withdraw_v christian_a communion_n from_o a_o true_a church_n though_o upon_o his_o counsel_n and_o advise_v she_o redress_v not_o but_o it_o be_v a_o schism_n then_o for_o one_o church_n upon_o counsel_n and_o advice_n give_v to_o more_o church_n though_o not_o take_v to_o separate_v formal_o from_o many_o church_n by_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o withdraw_a and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n can_v be_v justify_v paul_n do_v not_o renounce_v nor_o cast-off_a church_n for_o many_o thing_n amiss_o though_o upon_o his_o counsel_n they_o be_v not_o mend_v as_o appear_v in_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n that_o have_v be_v twice_o admonish_v 2_o cor._n 13._o 1_o 2._o and_o â—…t_a repent_v not_o and_o now_o paul_n do_v it_o the_o three_o time_n and_o yet_o refuse_v paul_n counsel_n and_o power_n be_v so_o infallible_a and_o authoritative_a deserve_v more_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n than_o the_o often_o reject_v the_o counsel_n and_o power_n of_o any_o particular_a church_n can_v do_v but_o i_o will_v answer_v you_o in_o your_o own_o language_n that_o your_o sacred_a and_o undoubted_a principle_n and_o supreme_a law_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o church_n offend_v to_o pronounce_v the_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o the_o church_n offend_v and_o of_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n to_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n that_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a with_o your_o own_o practice_n express_v in_o the_o 20_o and_o 21._o page_n be_v to_o i_o apocriphâ—…_n and_o judge_v it_o to_o be_v a_o additament_n which_o therefore_o rest_v on_o you_o who_o allow_v the_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n to_o make_v evident_a and_o demonstrate_v that_o of_o non-communion_n protestation_n declaration_n etc._n etc._n and_o thus_o it_o often_o fall_v out_o whilst_o man_n will_v oppose_v that_o which_o have_v long_o be_v receive_v in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n upon_o pretence_n of_o the_o want_n of_o scripture_n ground_n and_o bring_v in_o new_a way_n they_o practise_v novelty_n upon_o less_o ground_n and_o foundation_n from_o scripture_n than_o they_o reject_v the_o old_a as_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o this_o instance_n 2._o as_o these_o principle_n of_o yourâ—…_n have_v no_o foot_n in_o scripture_n so_o it_o will_v appear_v they_o be_v no_o sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n and_o evil_n which_o fall_v out_o in_o particular_a church_n by_o reason_n of_o their_o complete_a and_o entire_a power_n within_o themselves_o first_o because_o there_o be_v more_o act_n of_o power_n then_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o the_o instance_n you_o give_v upon_o it_o reach_v unto_o so_o that_o grant_v all_o you_o say_v of_o it_o yet_o it_o will_v but_o reach_v to_o that_o particular_a case_n or_o some_o such_o like_a case_n but_o will_v be_v no_o way_n sufficient_a either_o for_o prevent_v or_o remedy_v other_o evil_n and_o mischief_n which_o dâ—…e_v and_o will_v arise_v upon_o a_o congregationall_a government_n thus_o entire_a within_o itself_o so_o that_o here_o lie_v the_o fallacy_n in_o the_o question_n between_o you_o and_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o point_n of_o government_n you_o speak_v to_o some_o point_n of_o government_n but_o not_o to_o all_o and_o instead_o of_o lay_v down_o principle_n that_o shall_v answer_v all_o case_n they_o only_o serve_v but_o to_o some_o and_o so_o your_o principle_n that_o shall_v be_v simpliciter_fw-la be_v only_o secundum_fw-la quid_fw-la for_o in_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n there_o be_v many_o other_o act_n of_o power_n as_o of_o make_v and_o ordain_v minister_n of_o receive_v in_o member_n of_o agree_v upon_o a_o government_n doctrine_n and_o worship_n etc._n etc._n which_o this_o full_a complete_a entire_a power_n of_o particular_a congregation_n take_v upon_o they_o to_o do_v of_o which_o many_o great_a mischief_n do_v arise_v and_o be_v like_o error_n in_o the_o first_o concoction_n which_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n reach_v not_o unto_o nor_o do_v not_o help_v but_o second_o beside_o this_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v unto_o the_o other_o church_n offend_v with_o that_o practice_n of_o church_n final_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o senâ—…ence_n of_o non-communion_n do_v not_o answer_v the_o case_n allege_v in_o heresy_n schism_n or_o person_n injure_v nor_o be_v not_o a_o sufficient_a remedy_n like_o that_o of_o combination_n of_o elder_n and_o for_o the_o make_v good_a of_o that_o i_o shall_v examine_v the_o way_n and_o course_n prescribe_v by_o you_o in_o your_o principle_n here_o lay_v down_o of_o submission_n non-communion_n declaration_n and_o protestation_n and_o
half_a slight_a late_a and_o partial_a remedy_n to_o the_o offence_n and_o scandal_n relate_v the_o story_n more_o at_o large_a and_o then_o make_v some_o query_n upon_o it_o and_o your_o solemn_a practice_n thereupon_o and_o then_o i_o shall_v leave_v it_o to_o the_o reader_n to_o judge_v whether_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n be_v comparable_a to_o the_o way_n of_o the_o combine_a classical_a presbyterial_a government_n the_o church_n in_o which_o this_o offence_n fall_v out_o be_v at_o rotterdam_n of_o which_o mr_n bridge_n and_o mr_n ward_n of_o norwich_n old_a love_a friend_n and_o both_o fly_n upon_o the_o same_o cause_n bishop_n wren_n innovation_n be_v the_o minister_n and_o the_o minister_n depose_v by_o the_o church_n be_v this_o mr_n ward_n who_o for_o appear_v and_o side_v against_o mr_n bridge_n in_o some_o particular_n and_o for_o his_o preach_n of_o sermon_n in_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n which_o he_o have_v preach_v before_o in_o his_o church_n at_o norwich_n and_o for_o his_o give_v too_o much_o heed_n to_o the_o report_n of_o simple_a people_n and_o old_a wife_n tale_n be_v thus_o depose_v but_o i_o can_v so_o full_o cause_v the_o reader_n to_o understand_v matter_n without_o relate_v the_o first_o difference_n between_o mr_n bridge_n and_o mr_n simpson_n the_o true_a ground_n and_o rise_v of_o this_o latter_a offence_n mr_n simpson_n one_o of_o the_o author_n of_o this_o apologetical_a narration_n after_o some_o time_n of_o behold_v the_o order_n and_o way_n of_o this_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n desire_v to_o be_v admit_v a_o member_n and_o be_v upon_o his_o confession_n etc._n etc._n receive_v in_o but_o not_o long_o after_o what_o be_v the_o true_a reason_n he_o best_a know_v he_o dislike_v some_o person_n and_o thing_n in_o that_o church_n and_o he_o stand_v for_o the_o ordinance_n of_o prophesy_v to_o be_v exercise_v in_o that_o church_n that_o the_o people_n on_o the_o lord_n day_n shall_v have_v lâ—…berty_n after_o the_o sermon_n end_v to_o put_v doubt_n and_o question_n to_o the_o minister_n etc._n etc._n and_o he_o be_v trouble_v at_o a_o roll_a elder_a in_o that_o church_n bring_v in_o by_o mr_n bridge_n which_o belike_o have_v more_o power_n and_o bore_v more_o sway_n than_o himself_o who_o as_o mr_n simpson_n in_o a_o letter_n to_o a_o minister_n in_o london_n complain_v of_o the_o difference_n between_o he_o and_o mr_n bridge_n write_v how_o that_o elder_a be_v in_o that_o church_n over_o all_o person_n and_o over_o all_o cause_n but_o mr_n bridge_n oppose_v mr_n simpson_n prophesy_v upon_o so_o the_o rational_a ground_n of_o inconveniencit_n as_o himself_o tell_v i_o the_o story_n which_o be_v too_o long_o to_o relate_v yet_o he_o yield_v so_o far_o that_o the_o church_n shall_v meet_v on_o a_o week_n day_n and_o then_o they_o shall_v have_v that_o liberty_n but_o this_o will_v no_o way_n satisfy_v mr_n simpson_n whereupon_o the_o difference_n increase_v and_o there_o be_v siding_n but_o mr_n bridges_n power_n be_v the_o great_a to_o carry_v thing_n in_o the_o church_n and_o so_o mr_n simpson_n will_v abide_v no_o long_o but_o quit_v that_o church_n though_o he_o have_v no_o letter_n of_o dismission_n from_o that_o church_n and_o with_o the_o help_n of_o a_o woman_n who_o mr_n bridge_n call_v tell_v i_o the_o story_n of_o thing_n between_o they_o the_o foundress_n of_o mr_n simpson_n church_n set_v up_o a_o church_n against_o a_o church_n consist_v but_o of_o five_o person_n at_o the_o most_o in_o the_o beginning_n whereof_o the_o woman_n and_o her_o husband_n be_v two_o but_o this_o church_n of_o mr_n simpson_n increase_v as_o be_v extol_v for_o a_o pure_a church_n and_o for_o more_o ordinance_n but_o mr_n bridges_n church_n be_v cry_v down_o for_o old_a rot_a member_n and_o for_o the_o want_n of_o prophecy_n and_o so_o the_o fire_n of_o contention_n and_o difference_n grow_v more_o and_o more_o between_o mr_n bridge_n and_o mr_n simpson_n and_o their_o church_n now_o mr_n ward_n mr_n bridges_n colleague_n side_v with_o mr_n simpson_n stand_v for_o prophesy_v and_o though_o mr_n simpson_n have_v leave_v that_o church_n yet_o mr_n ward_n in_o that_o church_n be_v for_o mr_n simpson_n way_n whereupon_o by_o occasion_n of_o that_o and_o for_o exercise_v his_o gift_n no_o better_o but_o to_o preach_v his_o old_a sermon_n he_o have_v former_o preach_v at_o norwich_n and_o believe_v of_o tale_n give_v so_o much_o way_n to_o report_n he_o be_v depose_v by_o that_o church_n among_o 17_o or_o 18_o reason_n of_o mr_n ward_n deposition_n a_o godly_a learned_a minister_n who_o have_v see_v they_o in_o writing_n tell_v i_o these_o be_v the_o most_o material_a and_o now_o upon_o mr_n simpson_n rend_v from_o the_o church_n and_o set_v up_o a_o church_n against_o a_o church_n under_o mr_n bridges_n nose_n and_o upon_o mr_n ward_n deposition_n from_o his_o ministry_n and_o mr_n simpson_n church_n increase_v in_o fame_n and_o number_n but_o mr_n bridges_n decrease_v and_o some_o other_o rend_a themselves_o away_o and_o upon_o wicked_a report_n raise_v about_o mr_n bridge_n there_o grow_v that_o bitterness_n evil_a speaking_n deep_a censuring_n deadly_a feaud_n among_o these_o minister_n and_o their_o church_n as_o never_o be_v more_o betwixt_o the_o jew_n and_o the_o samaritan_n mr_n bridge_n confess_v to_o i_o there_o be_v no_o such_o sharp_a tongue_n nor_o bitter_a division_n as_o these_o letter_n from_o all_o three_o be_v send_v into_o england_n both_o into_o city_n and_o country_n against_o each_o other_o mr_n simpson_n dispatch_v many_o letter_n into_o england_n against_o mr_n bridge_n as_o to_o mr_n m._n mr_n b._n mr_n h._n mr_n r._n etc._n etc._n and_o mr_n bridge_n against_o mr_n simpson_n mr_n bridge_n and_o mr_n ward_n write_v many_o letter_n one_o against_o the_o other_o particular_o to_o norwich_n and_o among_o other_o many_o sharp_a letter_n be_v send_v to_o a_o d_o of_o physic_n about_o the_o difference_n and_o upon_o their_o come_n over_o into_o england_n they_o tell_v sad_a story_n for_o themselves_o and_o each_o against_o other_o mâ—…_n bridge_n lay_v these_o bitter_a difference_n and_o report_n so_o to_o heart_n that_o they_o be_v a_o great_a mean_n of_o her_o death_n and_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n weakness_n and_o distemper_n be_v not_o occasion_v by_o the_o division_n and_o the_o wicked_a scandal_n unjust_o i_o believe_v raise_v upon_o he_o as_o well_o as_o by_o the_o air_n of_o rotterdam_n mr_n bridge_n know_v best_a and_o thus_o much_o for_o the_o particular_a relation_n of_o the_o scandal_n and_o offence_n that_o fall_v out_o in_o that_o church_n of_o rotterdam_n as_o it_o have_v be_v relate_v to_o i_o from_o good_a hand_n from_o some_o who_o have_v live_v in_o holland_n and_o as_o i_o have_v part_n of_o it_o from_o mr_n bridges_n own_o mouth_n and_o some_o of_o it_o from_o letter_n of_o mr_n simpson_n write_v into_o england_n and_o from_o other_o man_n of_o credit_n who_o have_v see_v letter_n and_o relation_n write_v from_o thence_o now_o from_o the_o relation_n of_o this_o story_n and_o your_o practice_n upon_o it_o i_o shall_v propound_v these_o query_n which_o will_v give_v some_o light_n to_o judge_v whether_o there_o be_v any_o sufficiency_n in_o your_o course_n to_o remedy_n and_o redress_v thing_n amiss_o in_o church_n and_o betwixt_o person_n offend_v 1._o whether_o your_o church_n do_v agree_v upon_o and_o tie_v yourselves_o to_o this_o principle_n of_o submission_n and_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n at_o your_o first_o set_v up_o and_o come_v into_o that_o place_n of_o exile_n or_o do_v you_o first_o acknowledge_v it_o and_o be_v willing_a to_o submit_v upon_o the_o occasion_n of_o the_o scandal_n of_o mr_n ward_n depose_v and_o that_o great_a clamour_n upon_o it_o both_o in_o holland_n and_o england_n 2._o whether_o do_v you_o then_o or_o do_v you_o now_o acknowledge_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n to_o all_o other_o neighbour_n church_n as_o well_o as_o to_o they_o of_o your_o own_o way_n as_o namely_o to_o the_o presbyterian_a church_n those_o english_a church_n at_o amsterdam_n hague_n utrich_n etc._n etc._n and_o will_v you_o have_v submit_v to_o those_o church_n to_o have_v so_o proceed_v upon_o offence_n and_o difference_n among_o you_o 3._o how_o long_o be_v it_o be_v it_o not_o for_o the_o space_n of_o between_o a_o year_n and_o two_o that_o mr_n ward_n stand_v depose_v and_o lay_v aside_o from_o his_o ministry_n and_o maintenance_n before_o he_o be_v restore_v and_o if_o so_o be_v not_o this_o a_o late_a remedy_n and_o iâ—…_n it_o so_o in_o presbyterial_a government_n 4._o when_o and_o at_o what_o time_n be_v this_o principle_n of_o sâ—…bmission_n and_o your_o solemn_a practice_n both_o of_o â—…equiring_v the_o church_n offend_v to_o give_v a_o account_n with_o their_o châ—…arfull_a submit_v
and_o restore_v mr_n ward_n agree_v upon_o be_v it_o not_o upon_o the_o news_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o probability_n of_o the_o revolution_n of_o thing_n and_o i_o propound_v this_o question_n because_o mr_n bâ—…rroughs_n who_o come_v in_o m._n ward_n place_n after_o his_o deposition_n come_v back_o to_o england_n but_o at_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o till_o he_o come_v or_o be_v resolve_v to_o come_v it_o be_v not_o probable_a m._n ward_n be_v restore_v and_o if_o so_o that_o it_o be_v do_v when_o all_o be_v like_a to_o break_v up_o and_o they_o to_o come_v fâ—…_n england_n may_v we_o not_o suspect_v it_o be_v do_v for_o a_o instance_n to_o vindicate_v your_o way_n with_o and_o to_o serve_v your_o turn_n as_o in_o this_o apology_n rather_o than_o from_o any_o necessity_n of_o right_v a_o person_n â—…jured_v or_o correct_v a_o church_n offend_v 5._o why_o do_v not_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n take_v offence_n as_o well_o at_o m._n sympson_n church_n and_o at_o his_o schism_n in_o set_v up_o another_o church_n and_o at_o all_o that_o bitterness_n evil_a speak_v between_o those_o two_o church_n the_o ground_n indeed_o and_o foundation_n of_o that_o unhappy_a business_n about_o m._n ward_n and_o of_o all_o the_o evil_n commit_v therein_o and_o according_o have_v require_v m._n sympson_n church_n to_o have_v submit_v but_o here_o be_v not_o a_o hint_n of_o this_o in_o all_o the_o relation_n of_o your_o practice_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n out_o of_o holland_n by_o i_o that_o concern_v this_o business_n write_v thus_o that_o though_o m._n sympson_n with_o sâ—…me_n fâ—…w_o morâ—…_n râ—…t_v themselves_o from_o m._n bridges_n church_n to_o the_o great_a offence_n thereof_o yet_o m._n goodwin_n and_o his_o associate_n when_o they_o come_v to_o hear_v the_o business_n about_o m._n ward_n never_o question_v that_o scandal_n i_o mean_v of_o their_o schism_n from_o the_o same_o church_n now_o if_o it_o be_v so_o be_v not_o this_o a_o partial_a remedy_n not_o reach_v to_o all_o the_o offence_n noâ—…_n to_o the_o bottom_n of_o it_o why_o do_v you_o not_o summon_v both_o these_o church_n in_o the_o matter_n of_o scandal_n and_o difference_n to_o submit_v as_o well_o as_o one_o of_o the_o church_n will_v not_o your_o principle_n serve_v in_o difference_n between_o church_n as_o for_o difference_n in_o one_o church_n or_o be_v it_o that_o there_o be_v no_o complaint_n of_o neither_o side_n or_o be_v it_o because_o you_o be_v tender_a of_o question_v the_o multiplication_n of_o church_n though_o by_o separation_n and_o schiâ—…me_n or_o what_o be_v the_o reason_n you_o question_v not_o that_o 6._o whether_o be_v the_o other_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n or_o any_o of_o they_o who_o can_v not_o but_o be_v offend_v as_o they_o of_o amsterdam_n hague_n utrich_n leyden_n delft_n call_v in_o by_o arnheim_n or_o by_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n to_o join_v in_o the_o hear_n try_v of_o that_o business_n and_o depose_v witness_n or_o do_v they_o send_v messenger_n or_o be_v it_o only_o agitate_a by_o two_o minister_n â—…nd_v two_o messenger_n of_o tâ—…_n church_n of_o arnheim_n one_o church_n only_o 〈◊〉_d to_o 〈◊〉_d one_o to_o one_o both_o equal_a and_o whether_o there_o can_v be_v the_o like_a majesty_n and_o solemnity_n of_o a_o meeting_n where_o they_o be_v equal_a â—…ay_v a_o inferiority_n in_o as_o much_o as_o a_o representative_a church_n consist_v of_o four_o be_v below_o a_o church_n represent_v as_o in_o a_o presbyterial_a assâ—…bly_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n from_o holland_n by_o i_o wherein_o a_o godly_a ministâ—…r_n write_v thus_o i_o be_v desire_v by_o mr_n ward_n to_o be_v present_a at_o that_o meeting_n but_o when_o the_o time_n come_v neither_o i_o nor_o any_o other_o english_a minister_n but_o they_o of_o arnheim_n be_v callâ—…d_v 7._o to_o what_o or_o to_o how_o much_o do_v your_o practice_n who_o be_v the_o church_n offend_v amount_v unto_o upon_o mr_n bridges_n church_n submission_n and_o your_o full_a hear_n and_o find_v both_o side_n to_o be_v in_o a_o error_n do_v you_o enjoin_v and_o draw_v up_o a_o order_n that_o the_o church_n offend_v shall_v public_o acknowledge_v their_o sinfâ—…_n abeâ—…ation_n before_o you_o and_o the_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n again_o and_o that_o they_o shall_v keep_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o for_o their_o sinful_a carriage_n and_o that_o the_o minister_n depose_v shall_v acknowledge_v to_o the_o church_n wherein_o he_o have_v likewise_o sin_v or_o do_v you_o leave_v they_o to_o themselves_o upon_o your_o find_v the_o offence_n to_o do_v what_o they_o think_v fit_v both_o church_n and_o minister_n as_o be_v against_o your_o principle_n for_o one_o church_n to_o decree_n and_o impose_v any_o thing_n upon_o another_o and_o so_o they_o â—…ooke_v up_o this_o way_n voluntary_o will_v you_o will_v speak_v out_o and_o once_o tell_v we_o plain_o what_o you_o hold_v and_o what_o you_o woâ—…ld_v 〈◊〉_d that_o so_o the_o reader_n may_v judge_v of_o the_o effectualnessâ—…_n of_o your_o 〈◊〉_d 8._o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n with_o the_o offend_a church_n at_o rotterdam_n do_v sit_v as_o judge_n with_o they_o oâ—…_n 〈◊〉_d in_o their_o own_o cause_n to_o examine_v depose_v etc._n etc._n or_o else_o 〈◊〉_d by_o aâ—…_n delinquent_n to_o be_v charge_v try_a etc._n etc._n 9_o i_o deâ—…e_v to_o know_v of_o you_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d he_o be_v râ—…stored_v do_v as_o forme_o officiate_v in_o that_o church_n and_o how_o long_o and_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n and_o he_o continue_v there_o as_o fellow_n minister_n and_o whether_o both_o between_o they_o two_o and_o between_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n there_o be_v that_o mutual_a carriage_n as_o before_o and_o aught_o to_o be_v between_o fellow_n minister_n and_o minister_n and_o people_n 10._o how_o can_v a_o church_n representative_a be_v a_o sufficient_a and_o allow_a remedy_n to_o take_v up_o great_a offence_n in_o a_o church_n at_o a_o great_a distance_n and_o whether_o this_o imply_v not_o a_o implicit_a faith_n in_o the_o represent_v to_o let_v the_o representer_n upon_o hear_v put_v a_o final_a determination_n and_o conclusion_n to_o great_a offence_n and_o difference_n without_o return_v back_o the_o business_n to_o the_o church_n represent_v or_o so_o much_o as_o ever_o acquaint_v they_o with_o the_o business_n before_o all_o be_v end_v as_o be_v in_o this_o particular_a case_n and_o whether_o faith_n mr_n robinsâ—…s_fw-fr argument_n against_o the_o presbyterian_o â—…bout_o the_o power_n of_o their_o elder_n be_v not_o strong_a against_o your_o principle_n and_o practice_n here_o relate_v and_o what_o ground_n be_v there_o from_o tâ—…e_a scripture_n that_o four_o man_n of_o another_o church_n shall_v have_v power_n to_o call_v unto_o and_o insist_v upon_o a_o judiciarie_n charge_v against_o they_o who_o be_v great_a than_o themselves_o namely_o against_o a_o whole_a church_n consist_v of_o officerâ—…_n and_o people_n 11._o suppose_v the_o church_n of_o arâ—…m_n who_o send_v two_o ministerâ—…_n and_o two_o gentleman_n â—…s_v messenger_n of_o their_o church_n upon_o their_o return_n back_o to_o the_o church_n and_o give_v a_o account_n of_o all_o the_o proceed_n and_o issue_n of_o that_o business_n have_v dislike_v the_o determination_n and_o judge_v some_o of_o the_o proceed_n unjust_a otherâ—…_n unsatisfactory_a and_o not_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n as_o the_o church_n of_o 〈◊〉_d may_v well_o have_v do_v there_o be_v just_a ground_n for_o it_o as_o i_o will_v show_v in_o the_o second_o particular_a under_o the_o next_o head_n what_o must_v have_v be_v do_v in_o this_o case_n must_v the_o messenger_n themselves_o have_v be_v now_o question_v by_o the_o church_n for_o manage_v matter_n no_o better_a or_o must_v the_o sentence_n agree_v upon_o both_o for_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n be_v reverse_v or_o must_v other_o messenger_n be_v send_v to_o hear_v matter_n again_o and_o to_o change_v or_o add_v what_o be_v amiss_o and_o what_o if_o the_o church_n will_v not_o alter_v that_o which_o upon_o so_o full_a a_o hear_n and_o trial_n be_v agree_v upon_o now_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o and_o appeal_v to_o the_o reader_n consider_v that_o the_o church_n or_o church_n themselves_o may_v probable_o and_o it_o can_v but_o be_v expect_v 〈◊〉_d and_o vary_v in_o their_o judgement_n from_o their_o messenger_n about_o the_o determination_n of_o offence_n and_o difference_n whether_o this_o be_v a_o likely_a mean_n and_o sufficient_a remedy_n to_o end_v all_o strifed_a or_o rather_o will_v not_o be_v as_o the_o begin_n of_o new_a strife_n and_o a_o occasion_n of_o endless_a contention_n 12._o in_o this_o way_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o your_o practice_n upon_o occasion_n of_o offence_n and_o
word_n to_o hinder_v the_o depose_n of_o mr_n ward_n and_o so_o to_o have_v prevent_v so_o great_a a_o scandal_n and_o offence_n as_o this_o be_v to_o the_o five_o and_o last_o general_a head_n the_o comparison_n you_o make_v between_o the_o effectualness_n and_o powerfulnesse_n of_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n and_o that_o of_o the_o presbyterian_o to_o awe_n and_o preserve_v church_n and_o elder_n in_o their_o duty_n and_o to_o reduce_v church_n miscarry_v where_o you_o make_v the_o sâ—…ales_n fall_v on_o your_o side_n rather_o i_o answer_v beside_o some_o considerable_a thing_n already_o hint_v under_o some_o of_o the_o former_a head_n especial_o under_o the_o four_o head_n which_o do_v show_v a_o wide_a difference_n of_o the_o effectualness_n and_o success_n which_o the_o presbyterian_a principle_n and_o way_n hold_v out_o over_o your_o congregationall_a thâ—…e_o be_v many_o other_o to_o 〈◊〉_d the_o sâ—…les_n which_o i_o shall_v now_o speak_v of_o according_a as_o it_o be_v lay_v down_o here_o by_o you_o in_o the_o 17_o 18_o and_o 19_o page_n 1._o that_o you_o may_v render_v your_o way_n the_o more_o specious_a and_o probable_a you_o beg_v the_o question_n and_o take_v for_o grant_v thing_n deny_v suppose_v that_o also_o which_o never_o have_v fall_v out_o in_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o you_o speak_v but_o to_o a_o part_n of_o the_o way_n and_o remedy_n namely_o excommunication_n anâ—…_n from_o all_o these_o false_a premise_n you_o make_v your_o conclusion_n you_o lie_v down_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n 〈◊〉_d that_o â—…ch_n be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d and_o way_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o be_v strict_o enjoin_v by_o christ_n â—…d_v that_o it_o be_v a_o command_n from_o christ_n enjoin_v to_o church_n that_o be_v â—…ly_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n which_o be_v a_o mere_a device_n of_o your_o own_o brain_n and_o sound_v out_o to_o give_v a_o colourable_a answer_n to_o that_o common_a and_o 〈◊〉_d reason_n against_o the_o churchway_n 〈◊〉_d you_o make_v that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o presbytery_n to_o be_v a_o excommunicate_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o â—…s_v deliver_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o their_o eldere_fw-la offend_v unto_o saâ—…n_n which_o be_v a_o scandalous_a charge_n lay_v to_o though_o presbyterian_a government_n and_o never_o yet_o be_v â—…rd_n of_o in_o any_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n for_o the_o space_n now_o of_o a_o hundred_o year_n past_a you_o lay_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n then_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v whereas_o in_o some_o thing_n i_o shall_v show_v the_o contrary_a and_o in_o other_o thing_n you_o may_v out_o of_o policy_n at_o this_o time_n give_v more_o than_o the_o scripture_n allow_v you_o speak_v only_o of_o excommunication_n a_o part_n of_o their_o way_n whereas_o in_o combine_a classical_a government_n there_o be_v many_o other_o mean_n and_o way_n from_o first_o to_o last_o to_o preserve_v and_o reduce_v from_o error_n and_o offence_n 2._o the_o comparison_n make_v by_o you_o between_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o independent_o stand_v in_o two_o thing_n first_o in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a proceed_n and_o power_n second_o in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n 1._o for_o the_o ecclesiastical_a you_o make_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v and_o that_o of_o non-communion_n as_o effectual_a as_o excommunication_n which_o suppose_v they_o be_v as_o i_o shall_v show_v they_o be_v not_o yet_o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a reason_n by_o compare_v the_o whole_a with_o a_o part_n for_o a_o whole_a of_o one_o kind_n may_v be_v better_a and_o more_o excellent_a than_o some_o part_n of_o another_o kind_n and_o yet_o not_o comparable_a to_o the_o whole_a now_o there_o be_v many_o thing_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n beside_o excommunication_n excellent_a to_o preserve_v and_o keep_v the_o church_n their_o reformation_n and_o constitution_n be_v settle_v by_o synod_n and_o assembly_n their_o minister_n be_v ordain_v by_o presbytery_n and_o class_n their_o doctrine_n worship_n government_n and_o discipline_n upon_o serious_a debate_n and_o by_o common_a content_n draw_v up_o then_o rule_v be_v fix_v know_v and_o certain_a their_o classical_a meeting_n frequent_a and_o constant_a with_o high_a assembly_n for_o appeal_n their_o number_n and_o ability_n great_a their_o remedy_n and_o censure_n more_o solemn_a and_o more_o in_o number_n as_o deposition_n suspension_n etc._n etc._n all_o which_o be_v want_v in_o the_o church_n way_n as_o i_o can_v show_v at_o large_a but_o that_o this_o answer_n will_v be_v too_o great_a a_o volume_n but_o to_o come_v to_o particular_n the_o presbyterian_a be_v more_o effectual_a than_o your_o independent_a way_n 1._o because_o it_o do_v prevent_v and_o preserve_v from_o those_o many_o error_n division_n evil_n which_o fall_v in_o your_o way_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o experience_n and_o be_v found_v upon_o good_a reason_n will_v fall_v out_o now_o how_o much_o better_a and_o more_o effectual_a a_o way_n it_o be_v to_o play_v the_o foregame_n than_o the_o aftergame_n all_o man_n know_v it_o be_v better_a to_o prevent_v the_o plague_n and_o take_n in_o poison_n then_o to_o expel_v it_o government_n be_v for_o prevention_n as_o well_o as_o recover_v if_o your_o way_n be_v as_o effectual_a to_o compose_v difference_n and_o reduce_v church_n yet_o not_o so_o to_o prevent_v which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o great_a end_n of_o church_n government_n 2._o your_o way_n wrap_v in_o whole_a church_n in_o sin_n and_o guilt_n and_o you_o have_v no_o remedy_n but_o it_o must_v come_v to_o non-communion_n of_o whole_a church_n but_o in_o presbyterial_a it_o be_v not_o so_o no_o example_n be_v extant_a among_o they_o of_o excommunicate_v whole_a church_n so_o that_o if_o a_o error_n take_v one_o or_o two_o they_o be_v present_o deal_v with_o and_o the_o error_n spread_v not_o to_o a_o whole_a church_n 3._o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n the_o person_n offend_v and_o sin_v in_o congregation_n be_v proceed_v with_o and_o punish_v every_o man_n bear_v his_o own_o sin_n but_o the_o innocent_a person_n suffer_v not_o but_o here_o in_o the_o way_n of_o non-communion_n some_o who_o be_v good_a in_o the_o church_n suffer_v also_o many_o way_n and_o here_o be_v no_o difference_n make_v by_o you_o but_o all_o involve_a in_o the_o same_o condition_n 4._o in_o your_o way_n as_o if_o all_o sin_n be_v equal_a and_o all_o offender_n alike_o all_o be_v punish_v with_o the_o same_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n but_o it_o be_v not_o so_o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n 5._o your_o submission_n and_o meeting_n be_v accidental_a uncertain_a free_a and_o at_o choice_n they_o may_v be_v and_o may_v not_o be_v there_o be_v many_o way_n to_o evade_v and_o put_v they_o off_o whereas_o the_o combination_n and_o consociation_n of_o church_n be_v fix_v set_v certain_a among_o your_o church_n in_o holland_n in_o three_o or_o four_o year_n there_o be_v but_o one_o act_n of_o submission_n and_o one_o meeting_n which_o be_v here_o relate_v in_o that_o difference_n between_o those_o two_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n there_o be_v no_o submission_n but_o each_o church_n blow_v the_o trumpet_n of_o defiance_n against_o each_o other_o and_o so_o about_o the_o difference_n at_o arnheim_n which_o the_o church_n can_v not_o end_v in_o so_o long_a a_o time_n no_o church_n interpose_v but_o in_o the_o classical_a government_n there_o be_v such_o a_o subordination_n and_o dependencie_n such_o state_v and_o fix_v meeting_n that_o if_o man_n shall_v escape_v one_o they_o do_v not_o all_o now_o in_o government_n and_o order_n there_o be_v a_o material_a difference_n between_o what_o man_n may_v do_v or_o not_o do_v and_o what_o they_o have_v tie_v themselves_o unto_o and_o must_v stand_v to_o in_o matter_n of_o civil_a difference_n refer_v to_o arbitratour_n it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o submit_v to_o hear_v and_o to_o counsel_v upon_o it_o and_o another_o thing_n to_o be_v bind_v to_o stand_v to_o the_o determination_n there_o be_v many_o will_v do_v just_o and_o perform_v such_o trust_n while_o bind_v who_o leave_v at_o liberty_n will_v do_v just_o nothing_o now_o in_o your_o submission_n of_o church_n though_o you_o submit_v to_o a_o hear_n yet_o you_o do_v not_o submit_v to_o their_o determination_n unless_o it_o like_v you_o you_o do_v not_o submit_v to_o do_v what_o they_o enjoin_v but_o you_o will_v order_v yourselves_o according_a to_o their_o counsel_n as_o you_o see_v occasion_n now_o man_n be_v partial_a in_o their_o own_o cause_n and_o still_o their_o own_o judge_n what_o a_o remedy_n be_v this_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n when_o man_n know_v they_o be_v at_o liberty_n and_o may_v do_v or_o not_o do_v as_o they_o see_v good_a and_o another_o
so_o there_o be_v need_n of_o synod_n for_o the_o govern_n of_o the_o church_n and_o for_o the_o prevent_n of_o herâ—…fies_v in_o a_o word_n all_o thing_n be_v loose_a in_o independent_a government_n every_o one_o be_v leave_v and_o may_v take_v liberty_n without_o control_n to_o do_v what_o be_v good_a in_o their_o own_o eye_n if_o they_o like_v not_o any_o church_n whereof_o they_o be_v member_n they_o may_v go_v to_o another_o nay_o a_o few_o in_o a_o church_n dislike_a that_o church_n may_v go_v make_v a_o church_n themselves_o and_o make_v minister_n and_o hold_v what_o they_o will_v as_o mr_n sympson_n do_v with_o some_o few_o more_o and_o since_o some_o have_v rend_v from_o mr_n sympson_n church_n as_o he_o from_o mr_n bridge_n the_o rule_v they_o go_v by_o be_v loose_a nothing_o be_v fix_v nor_o certain_a among_o they_o and_o there_o can_v be_v no_o settledness_n of_o mind_n nor_o consistence_n of_o principle_n in_o that_o way_n simple_a and_o well_o mean_v people_n according_a to_o their_o principle_n must_v be_v draw_v till_o they_o come_v to_o that_o to_o hold_v that_o there_o be_v no_o true_a church_n nor_o minister_n at_o all_o yet_o upon_o the_o earth_n which_o principle_n begin_v to_o take_v and_o spread_v already_o among_o many_o independent_o in_o a_o word_n that_o liberty_n and_o looseness_n which_o be_v from_o first_o to_o last_o in_o independent_a government_n hold_v no_o authoritative_a ecclesiastical_a power_n out_o of_o the_o particular_a congregation_n to_o remedy_n or_o prevent_v any_o matter_n and_o that_o which_o be_v in_o the_o particular_a congregation_n be_v on_o many_o ground_n and_o principle_n of_o they_o so_o slight_a and_o weak_a as_o the_o only_a subject_n of_o excommunication_n be_v no_o other_o kind_n of_o sin_n than_o may_v evident_o be_v presume_v to_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n etc._n etc._n as_o that_o two_o or_o three_o saint_n or_o now_o of_o late_a six_o or_o seven_o may_v withdraw_v from_o church_n defective_a and_o impure_a and_o make_v church_n and_o choose_v all_o officer_n etc._n etc._n with_o other_o like_a so_o that_o what_o need_v they_o care_v then_o for_o that_o church_n of_o which_o they_o be_v member_n though_o cast_v out_o see_v they_o can_v make_v new_a and_o have_v all_o to_o their_o own_o mind_n be_v chief_a there_o be_v a_o dangerous_a temptation_n even_o to_o sober_a man_n to_o make_v they_o presume_v to_o broach_v that_o practise_v that_o which_o else_o they_o will_v never_o have_v do_v but_o in_o the_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o be_v consistence_n unity_n and_o strength_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o a_o hundred_o year_n visible_a experience_n of_o god_n blessing_n from_o heaven_n upon_o they_o there_o be_v also_o a_o certainty_n and_o fixedness_n of_o rule_n agree_v on_o both_o for_o particular_a congregation_n for_o class_n and_o synod_n there_o be_v a_o aw_v and_o preserve_v of_o officer_n and_o people_n in_o their_o bound_n and_o keep_v they_o from_o run_v out_o to_o error_n etc._n etc._n there_o be_v no_o man_n be_v he_o never_o so_o able_a or_o subtle_a that_o can_v escape_v call_v to_o account_n and_o censure_n magistrate_n and_o minister_n have_v their_o power_n in_o the_o church_n without_o usurpation_n and_o confusion_n and_o to_o conclude_v in_o the_o word_n of_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n be_v magistrate_n and_o civil_a power_n acquaint_v with_o this_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n they_o will_v find_v their_o authority_n increase_v their_o work_n more_o easy_a and_o their_o place_n more_o comfortable_a thereby_o and_o now_o have_v give_v a_o answer_n to_o that_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n under_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n by_o speak_v full_o of_o those_o five_o head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o your_o discourse_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n begin_v in_o pag._n 12._o and_o end_v in_o the_o 21._o i_o will_v for_o a_o close_o speak_v something_o to_o some_o of_o your_o passage_n contain_v in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o narration_n which_o can_v not_o so_o well_o be_v take_v in_o nor_o so_o proper_o animadvert_v upon_o under_o those_o five_o head_n without_o the_o reader_n be_v much_o confound_v and_o entangle_v 1._o to_o that_o passage_n p._n 14._o we_o have_v for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o the_o time_n we_o be_v abroad_o three_o elder_n at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o we_o be_v subject_a to_o i_o ask_v if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n you_o many_o time_n have_v but_o three_o and_o sometime_o but_o two_o nay_o one_o elder_a the_o government_n of_o your_o church_n then_o be_v either_o monarchical_a government_n or_o oligarchicall_a at_o best_a and_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n who_o be_v the_o elder_n subject_n to_o the_o elder_n than_o be_v under_o no_o subjection_n but_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n and_o not_o the_o elder_n to_o the_o church_n riddle_n i_o what_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o all_o those_o phrase_n the_o church_n still_o do_v so_o and_o so_o not_o the_o elder_n the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n depose_v m._n ward_n and_o not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o elder_a or_o two_o and_o so_o m._n nye_n and_o m._n goodwin_n the_o minister_n be_v send_v by_o the_o church_n and_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v confess_v their_o sin_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n to_o his_o place_n again_o which_o sure_o be_v not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o lay-elder_n or_o two_o 2._o to_o those_o passage_n of_o church_n offend_v call_v to_o a_o account_n church_n offend_v proceed_v to_o full_a and_o open_a trial_n and_o examination_n to_o judiciarie_n charge_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n open_o before_o all_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n as_o can_v be_v expect_v in_o any_o court_n where_o authority_n about_o they_o enjoin_v it_o and_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n be_v censurable_a by_o neighbour_n church_n about_o they_o i_o desire_v to_o put_v this_o disjunctive_a proposition_n either_o this_o power_n of_o call_v to_o a_o account_n examine_v depose_v witness_n censure_v they_o etc._n etc._n be_v act_n of_o rule_v and_o government_n and_o in_o the_o church_n challenge_v act_n of_o subjection_n or_o they_o be_v not_o if_o you_o grant_v they_o be_v act_n of_o rule_n and_o government_n than_o there_o be_v a_o authoritative_a power_n which_o church_n have_v out_o of_o their_o church_n and_o you_o grant_v it_o in_o such_o act_n at_o least_o though_o not_o in_o that_o of_o excommunication_n but_o whether_o if_o it_o be_v so_o in_o these_o that_o of_o excommunication_n will_v not_o follow_v let_v it_o be_v consider_v for_o either_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n be_v not_o found_v upon_o the_o common_a ground_n on_o which_o calling_n to_o account_n and_o some_o censure_n be_v or_o else_o there_o be_v some_o proper_a peculiar_a ground_n in_o the_o nature_n of_o that_o ordinance_n or_o in_o the_o scripture_n forbid_v that_o though_o allow_v other_o neither_o of_o which_o will_v be_v find_v to_o have_v a_o foundation_n in_o scripture_n and_o if_o so_o why_o then_o do_v you_o make_v all_o this_o ado_n of_o entire_a full_a complete_a power_n within_o yourselves_o and_o be_v against_o the_o combination_n of_o church_n in_o class_n and_o presbytery_n to_o do_v that_o constant_o certain_o and_o present_o upon_o scandal_n that_o fall_v out_o in_o a_o church_n which_o you_o do_v at_o best_a but_o at_o uncertainty_n and_o after_o a_o long_a time_n when_o the_o remedy_n may_v come_v too_o late_o a_o year_n or_o two_o afterward_o but_o if_o you_o answer_v these_o be_v no_o act_n of_o government_n and_o rule_n in_o this_o church_n or_o church_n but_o mere_o act_n of_o consultation_n advice_n persuasion_n and_o that_o when_o the_o church_n offend_v have_v hear_v all_o they_o only_o give_v their_o counsel_n and_o advice_n and_o commend_v it_o to_o they_o but_o it_o be_v in_o their_o liberty_n to_o do_v or_o not_o to_o do_v for_o though_o they_o submit_v to_o a_o hear_n and_o open_a trial_n by_o virtue_n of_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n yet_o they_o submit_v not_o to_o stand_v to_o the_o determination_n and_o agreement_n of_o that_o church_n or_o church_n i_o answer_v if_o you_o mean_v no_o more_o than_o the_o bare_a power_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n in_o all_o this_o and_o no_o power_n of_o authoritative_a determination_n and_o decision_n this_o be_v no_o more_o nor_o you_o give_v no_o more_o to_o the_o church_n offend_v then_o to_o particular_a christian_n who_o may_v counsel_v they_o in_o such_o case_n and_o why_o then_o do_v you_o hold_v out_o such_o word_n and_o your_o practice_n of_o a_o full_a and_o
open_a trial_n and_o what_o speak_v you_o of_o room_n for_o complaint_n and_o of_o subject_v to_o a_o open_a trial_n and_o review_v of_o what_o can_v be_v bring_v and_o of_o be_v censurable_a by_o neighbour_n church_n etc._n etc._n whether_o be_v not_o all_o these_o the_o usual_a phrase_n and_o expression_n of_o act_n of_o power_n and_o government_n can_v there_o be_v so_o much_o as_o trial_n and_o examination_n and_o judiciary_n charge_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n without_o authority_n much_o less_o censure_n can_v you_o ever_o show_v it_o either_o in_o civil_a government_n in_o commonwealth_n or_o in_o ecclesiastical_a in_o church_n out_o of_o scripture_n or_o story_n where_o all_o these_o act_n be_v exercise_v and_o practise_v by_o person_n who_o only_o have_v power_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n and_o if_o you_o can_v how_o can_v you_o make_v it_o good_a but_o that_o this_o must_v be_v more_o than_o advice_n and_o counsel_n namely_o authoritative_a power_n it_o be_v give_v as_o a_o rule_n by_o yourselves_o that_o in_o matter_n of_o a_o common_a nature_n it_o be_v in_o ecclesiastical_a government_n as_o in_o civil_a now_o if_o in_o all_o civil_a assembly_n all_o these_o act_n and_o practice_n be_v act_n of_o authority_n and_o government_n why_o hold_v it_o not_o so_o in_o ecclesiastical_a and_o further_o to_o reason_n though_o church_n be_v sister_n and_o equal_v each_o consider_v by_o itself_o yet_o in_o case_n of_o offence_n and_o difference_n between_o church_n the_o church_n complain_v and_o appeal_v unto_o to_o who_o the_o rest_n submit_v shall_v now_o be_v great_a and_o have_v more_o power_n in_o this_o thing_n than_o the_o church_n submit_v and_o their_o act_n shall_v be_v authoritative_a as_o in_o reason_n 6_o or_o 8_o man_n fall_v out_o and_o choose_v and_o submit_v to_o other_o to_o hear_v the_o business_n and_o make_v a_o end_n of_o it_o these_o be_v now_o great_a and_o have_v a_o power_n and_o authority_n over_o these_o quo_fw-la ad_fw-la hoc_fw-la and_o in_o these_o act_n and_o what_o they_o do_v be_v act_n of_o power_n which_o they_o must_v stand_v unto_o or_o suffer_v the_o penalty_n three_o you_o speak_v more_o than_o once_o upon_o occasion_n of_o this_o scandal_n commit_v in_o that_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n of_o church_n as_o in_o the_o plural_a number_n sister_n church_n to_o be_v consult_v with_o before_o hand_n and_o of_o your_o church_n mutual_o and_o universal_o acknowledge_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n and_o how_o that_o church_n â—…hich_v with_o other_o be_v most_o scandalize_v do_v by_o letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n and_o of_o require_v a_o full_a and_o public_a hear_n before_o all_o the_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n now_o what_o and_o where_o be_v those_o other_o church_n of_o who_o all_o this_o be_v speak_v i_o grant_v that_o at_o arnheim_n be_v one_o church_n that_o mr_n bridges_n church_n shall_v have_v consult_v with_o or_o have_v submit_v to_o but_o where_o be_v any_o other_o church_n i_o will_v yield_v the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n may_v by_o letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n but_o i_o know_v not_o what_o other_o church_n do_v by_o letter_n do_v the_o like_a i_o grant_v the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n be_v a_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n before_o who_o the_o offend_a church_n do_v yield_v a_o public_a hear_n but_o i_o know_v of_o no_o other_o i_o will_v not_o question_v but_o that_o the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n and_o mr_n bridges_n church_n do_v upon_o the_o offence_n of_o depose_v mr_n ward_n acknowledge_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n and_o submit_v to_o one_o another_o but_o i_o doubt_v no_o other_o do_v then_o mutual_o submit_v for_o beside_o the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n offend_v and_o mr_n bridges_n church_n offend_v there_o be_v no_o other_o church_n of_o your_o way_n and_o communion_n for_o the_o offend_a church_n to_o consult_v with_o or_o that_o do_v write_v letter_n or_o before_o who_o the_o business_n be_v hear_v etc._n etc._n for_o i_o suppose_v and_o judge_n mr_n simpson_n new_a church_n be_v at_o that_o difference_n with_o mr_n bridges_n church_n and_o mr_n bridge_n with_o he_o mr_n bridges_n church_n shall_v not_o have_v consult_v with_o mr_n simpson_n before_o hand_n and_o that_o mr_n bridges_n church_n will_v not_o have_v yield_v the_o principle_n of_o submission_n to_o have_v submit_v to_o a_o full_a trial_n and_o examination_n of_o all_o proceed_n before_o mr_n simpson_n and_o in_o case_n mr_n simpson_n church_n have_v send_v letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n they_o will_v have_v decline_v it_o as_o partial_a and_o as_o account_v they_o the_o party_n offend_v and_o i_o never_o hear_v that_o mr_n simpson_n with_o some_o messenger_n of_o his_o church_n join_v with_o the_o messenger_n of_o arnheim_n in_o the_o trial_n of_o that_o business_n of_o mr_n ward_n or_o sit_v as_o judge_n etc._n etc._n so_o that_o i_o can_v tell_v why_o you_o use_v church_n in_o the_o plural_a number_n thus_o all_o along_o in_o that_o business_n but_o that_o the_o reader_n may_v conceive_v for_o your_o great_a authority_n and_o esteem_n and_o for_o the_o great_a solemnity_n of_o the_o action_n there_o be_v more_o church_n beside_o that_o at_o arnheim_n four_o for_o those_o two_o gentleman_n who_o be_v send_v with_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n offend_v to_o require_v a_o account_n whether_o be_v those_o gentleman_n elder_n of_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n or_o private_a member_n only_o if_o they_o be_v not_o elder_n why_o be_v private_a member_n send_v before_o elder_n show_v we_o a_o rule_n for_o that_o and_o satisfy_v we_o how_o private_a person_n and_o no_o officer_n of_o the_o church_n shall_v represent_v the_o church_n but_o if_o they_o be_v elder_n why_o do_v you_o name_v they_o gentleman_n only_o and_o not_o speak_v of_o they_o as_o officer_n 5._o whether_o though_o you_o make_v so_o sure_a of_o it_o yet_o it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v doubt_v upon_o the_o ground_n of_o reason_n and_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o it_o be_v not_o more_o brotherly_a and_o more_o suit_v to_o that_o liberty_n and_o equality_n christ_n have_v endow_v his_o church_n with_o but_o a_o point_n of_o great_a authority_n inequality_n and_o usurpation_n for_o four_o man_n grant_v they_o to_o be_v a_o church_n representative_a to_o take_v upon_o they_o what_o those_o four_o member_n of_o arnheim_n do_v to_o a_o whole_a church_n for_o so_o many_o day_n so_o full_o and_o judiciary_o to_o proceed_v as_o you_o write_v in_o the_o 21_o page_n then_o for_o a_o whole_a presbytery_n of_o minister_n and_o elder_n or_o a_o grave_a synod_n to_o call_v to_o a_o account_n and_o hear_v the_o offence_n of_o two_o or_o three_o in_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o together_o with_o that_o church_n representative_a to_o decree_v such_o censure_n as_o public_a acknowledgement_n of_o their_o offence_n or_o excommunication_n etc._n etc._n six_o i_o much_o wonder_v how_o you_o can_v call_v the_o meeting_n of_o mr_n goodwin_n and_o mr_n nye_n with_o two_o gentleman_n more_o call_z mr_n bridge_n with_o the_o rest_n of_o that_o church_n suppose_v to_o be_v delinquent_n such_o a_o solâ—…mne_a assembly_n the_o solemnity_n of_o which_o have_v leave_v as_o deep_a a_o imprâ—…ssion_n upon_o your_o heart_n of_o christ_n dreadful_a presence_n as_o ever_o you_o have_v beeâ—…_n present_a at_o certain_o you_o have_v either_o be_v but_o at_o few_o solemn_a assembly_n where_o christ_n dreadful_a presence_n have_v be_v or_o else_o your_o fancy_n be_v mighty_a high_a at_o that_o time_n as_o to_o make_v such_o a_o deep_a impression_n upon_o you_o of_o a_o dreadful_a presence_n as_o ever_o you_o have_v be_v at_o let_v i_o ask_v mr_n nye_n what_o be_v this_o assembly_n beyond_o the_o solemn_a general_a assembly_n of_o scotland_n where_o you_o be_v present_a when_o the_o great_a solemn_a covenant_n of_o the_o kingdom_n pass_v of_o which_o you_o write_v so_o high_o into_o england_n or_o be_v it_o beyond_o the_o assembly_n of_o divine_n wherein_o not_o only_o two_o of_o you_o be_v for_o consultation_n but_o all_o you_o â—…ive_v with_o so_o many_o other_o godly_a divine_n where_o instead_o of_o two_o gentleman_n assist_v then_o here_o the_o worthy_n of_o both_o house_n lord_n and_o commons_o assist_v nay_o a_o theatre_n of_o all_o other_o the_o most_o judicious_a and_o severe_a where_o much_o of_o the_o piety_n learning_n and_o wisdom_n of_o two_o kingdom_n be_v meet_v in_o one_o as_o yourselves_o confess_v afterward_o in_o the_o 27_o page_n i_o be_o of_o the_o mind_n there_o be_v ordinary_o many_o assembly_n and_o where_o you_o may_v have_v be_v that_o have_v a_o more_o dreadful_a presence_n of_o christ_n then_o that_o have_v the_o church_n meet_v to_o partake_v in_o the_o lord_n supper_n call_v the_o dreadful_a and_o terrible_a hour_n by_o some_o of_o the_o father_n
write_v in_o any_o other_o sense_n but_o in_o the_o point_n of_o ecclesiastical_a government_n and_o power_n do_v we_o lie_v to_o your_o charge_n in_o our_o writing_n against_o independency_n that_o you_o challenge_v a_o exemption_n of_o all_o church_n from_o all_o subjection_n and_o dependence_n or_o rather_o that_o you_o shall_v blow_v a_o trumpet_n of_o desiance_n against_o what_o ever_o power_n spiritual_a or_o civil_a do_v i_o or_o any_o other_o charge_v you_o with_o refuse_v all_o subjection_n to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o for_o that_o other_o dependence_n of_o consultation_n and_o non-communion_n upon_o other_o church_n the_o power_n you_o give_v in_o that_o kind_n to_o synod_n etc._n etc._n i_o acknowledge_v it_o in_o my_o eight_o reason_n 19_o and_o argue_v from_o thence_o to_o the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n why_o then_o do_v you_o deal_v thus_o deceitful_o and_o double_o pretend_v to_o abhor_v and_o detest_v independency_n as_o it_o be_v object_v and_o plead_v against_o you_o when_o as_o beside_o the_o very_a word_n and_o phrase_n find_v in_o so_o many_o print_a book_n and_o note_n you_o hold_v all_o that_o in_o the_o question_n which_o be_v the_o difference_n betwixt_o you_o and_o the_o presbyterian_o as_o also_o in_o some_o of_o your_o book_n independent_a and_o entire_a power_n be_v termini_fw-la convertibiles_fw-la as_o in_o the_o title_n of_o zion_n prerogative_n royal_a which_o entire_a full_a complete_a power_n in_o terminis_fw-la and_o in_o so_o many_o syllable_n you_o own_o more_o than_o once_o in_o this_o apology_n so_o that_o all_o your_o great_a word_n of_o abhor_v and_o detest_a the_o exemption_n of_o your_o church_n from_o all_o power_n spiritual_a or_o civil_a will_v not_o save_v you_o from_o independency_n just_o affix_v unto_o you_o as_o for_o civil_a power_n it_o be_v not_o the_o question_n in_o controversy_n neither_o be_v it_o affix_v unto_o you_o and_o for_o spiritual_a power_n proper_o call_v you_o deny_v it_o all_o along_o in_o many_o page_n speak_v against_o authoritative_a power_n often_o page_n 15_o 18_o 19_o and_o to_o put_v you_o this_o dilemma_n either_o you_o give_v authoritative_a power_n to_o other_o church_n or_o you_o do_v not_o if_o you_o do_v give_v it_o why_o do_v you_o speak_v so_o against_o it_o in_o your_o apology_n but_o if_o you_o do_v not_o give_v it_o why_o will_v you_o make_v your_o reader_n believe_v you_o do_v give_v spiritual_a power_n and_o be_v not_o against_o it_o be_v not_o this_o double_n and_o shuffle_n and_o trouble_v the_o water_n that_o the_o reader_n can_v tell_v where_o to_o find_v you_o nor_o what_o you_o hold_v too_o great_a a_o evidence_n of_o a_o weak_a and_o bad_a cause_n become_v not_o such_o man_n as_o you_o will_v be_v take_v for_o truth_n be_v open_a and_o naked_a and_o do_v not_o seek_v out_o hole_n and_o subterfugy_n but_o brethren_n do_v not_o deceive_v yourselves_o nor_o your_o reader_n any_o long_o if_o you_o be_v not_o against_o spiritual_a power_n proper_o so_o call_v of_o any_o class_n or_o synod_n in_o reference_n to_o particular_a congregation_n what_o mean_v you_o by_o all_o you_o say_v from_o page_n 12_o to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o 19_o and_o of_o all_o that_o controversy_n and_o tragedy_n make_v by_o you_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n for_o give_v a_o power_n to_o class_n and_o synod_n and_o let_v i_o entreat_v you_o that_o the_o controversy_n may_v be_v bring_v to_o some_o end_n between_o you_o and_o we_o in_o your_o reply_n set_v down_o particular_o what_o you_o will_v allow_v to_o class_n synod_n general_a assembly_n and_o counsel_n in_o matter_n of_o government_n and_o whether_o that_o you_o will_v allow_v and_o give_v authority_n and_o power_n yea_o or_o no_o and_o what_o you_o will_v not_o give_v nor_o allow_v they_o and_o then_o state_n the_o question_n so_o and_o i_o do_v promise_v you_o in_o my_o rejoynder_n to_o apply_v myself_o to_o give_v you_o satisfaction_n as_o if_o you_o except_o excommunication_n ordination_n or_o what_o else_o to_o show_v you_o the_o ground_n for_o they_o and_o if_o we_o love_v truth_n and_o peace_n either_o you_o shall_v win_v i_o or_o i_o you_o 3._o for_o the_o odious_a name_n of_o brownism_n together_o with_o all_o their_o opinion_n as_o they_o have_v state_v and_o maintain_v they_o must_v needs_o be_v own_v by_o we_o i_o answer_v brownisme_n as_o you_o in_o these_o word_n express_v it_o have_v not_o be_v fasten_v on_o you_o by_o any_o that_o i_o know_v but_o on_o the_o contrary_a you_o have_v be_v common_o contradistinguished_a from_o they_o be_v call_v independent_o semiseparatist_n and_o in_o my_o reason_n against_o independent_a government_n i_o do_v in_o many_o passage_n difference_n you_o from_o they_o and_o for_o all_o their_o opinion_n as_o they_o have_v state_v and_o maintain_v they_o namely_o draw_v such_o consequence_n and_o conclusion_n and_o go_v so_o far_o as_o they_o i_o have_v often_o vindicate_v you_o but_o yet_o for_o all_o that_o you_o can_v just_o free_v yourselves_o from_o the_o odious_a name_n of_o brownism_n in_o most_o of_o the_o fundamental_a principle_n and_o practice_n of_o your_o church_n no_o not_o with_o all_o your_o artifices_fw-la and_o specious_a pretence_n as_o the_o brownist_n grow_v up_o and_o out_o of_o the_o anabaptist_n do_v refine_v and_o qualify_v anabaptisine_n in_o many_o thing_n in_o government_n prophesy_v etc._n etc._n so_o have_v you_o refine_a and_o qualify_v brownism_n from_o the_o grossness_n and_o rigidness_n of_o it_o as_o it_o be_v hold_v by_o the_o first_o father_n and_o author_n of_o it_o as_o i_o can_v show_v in_o many_o particular_n you_o do_v not_o go_v so_o far_o as_o they_o neither_o be_v you_o against_o some_o practice_n of_o other_o church_n upon_o those_o high_a term_n but_o yet_o for_o substance_n from_o the_o first_o stone_n to_o the_o last_o in_o depart_v from_o our_o assembly_n and_o constitute_v new_a you_o agree_v with_o they_o as_o by_o a_o r._n parallel_n between_o the_o way_n of_o your_o communion_n and_o the_o separatist_n late_o print_v do_v appear_v and_o in_o a_o word_n it_o be_v evident_a thus_o you_o agree_v with_o the_o way_n of_o new-england_n as_o be_v confess_v by_o some_o of_o yourselves_o and_o we_o may_v judge_v so_o by_o your_o high_a praise_n of_o they_o now_o the_o church_n of_o new-england_n agree_v with_o they_o of_o m._n robinson_n church_n who_o be_v moderate_a and_o qualify_a brownist_n now_o that_o the_o churchway_n of_o new-england_n be_v the_o same_o with_o they_o of_o m._n robinson_n church_n be_v prove_v thus_o the_o church_n at_o new-plymouth_n be_v the_o first_o company_n that_o plant_v in_o those_o part_n who_o come_v from_o leiden_fw-mi where_fw-mi they_o be_v member_n of_o m._n robinson_n church_n a_o moderate_a brownist_n in_o his_o latter_a time_n practise_v the_o church-opinion_n and_o way_n they_o former_o have_v in_o holland_n and_o when_o they_o of_o new-england_n go_v over_o first_o through_o their_o converse_v with_o they_o and_o nearness_n of_o situation_n they_o take_v up_o and_o learn_v their_o way_n as_o appear_v by_o these_o particular_n first_o m._n w._n a_o eminent_a man_n of_o the_o church_n of_o new-plymouth_n tell_v w._n r._n that_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n of_o new-england_n at_o first_o come_v to_o they_o of_o plymouth_n to_o crave_v their_o direction_n in_o church-course_n and_o make_v they_o their_o pattern_n second_o m._n cotton_n in_o a_o letter_n to_o m._n skelton_n one_o of_o the_o first_o minister_n that_o go_v over_o thither_o write_v thus_o to_o he_o in_o way_n of_o new-england_n answer_n to_o this_o position_n that_o m._n skelton_n hold_v that_o our_o congregation_n in_o england_n be_v none_o of_o they_o particular_a reform_a church_n but_o m._n lathrops_n and_o such_o as_o he_o this_o error_n require_v rather_o a_o book_n then_o a_o letter_n to_o answer_v it_o you_o go_v hence_o of_o another_o judgement_n and_o i_o be_o afraid_a your_o change_n have_v spring_v from_o new-plymouth_n man_n who_o though_o i_o much_o esteem_v as_o godly_a love_v christian_n yet_o their_o ground_n which_o for_o this_o tenet_n they_o receive_v from_o m._n robinson_n do_v not_o satisfy_v i_o three_o there_o be_v great_a commendation_n give_v to_o the_o church_n of_o plymouth_n by_o m._n cotton_n after_o come_v to_o new-england_n in_o his_o letter_n to_o m._n williams_n pag._n 13._o four_o all_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n of_o new-england_n do_v affirm_v that_o all_o the_o church_n in_o new-england_n viz._n in_o the_o bay_n in_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o plymouth_n and_o at_o connetâ—…acute_n be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o way_n in_o church_n constitution_n government_n and_o discipline_n without_o any_o material_a difference_n now_o what_o can_v be_v say_v more_o plain_a add_v to_o all_o these_o that_o i_o have_v it_o from_o the_o mouth_n of_o a_o
your_o brethren_n be_v of_o two_o distinct_a church_n and_o communion_n you_o set_v up_o new_a because_o you_o can_v continue_v in_o the_o old_a with_o they_o and_o certain_o man_n of_o one_o and_o the_o same_o church_n and_o communion_n differ_v less_o among_o themselves_o than_o person_n of_o a_o church_n and_o communion_n set_v up_o against_o that_o church_n but_o least_o from_o this_o passage_n your_o follower_n shall_v make_v use_n to_o tax_v the_o minister_n of_o our_o church_n who_o have_v desire_a reformation_n with_o inconstancy_n and_o go_v according_a to_o the_o time_n and_o yourselves_o make_v use_v of_o it_o to_o defend_v your_o run_v so_o far_o in_o your_o way_n the_o minister_n differ_v far_o more_o from_o themselves_o within_o this_o three_o year_n pass_v then_o you_o do_v from_o they_o i_o must_v propound_v this_o to_o prevent_v those_o consequence_n namely_o that_o most_o of_o your_o brethren_n both_o of_o the_o assembly_n and_o of_o other_o part_n of_o the_o kingdom_n differ_v little_a from_o themselves_o in_o judgement_n from_o what_o they_o hold_v three_o year_n past_a or_o many_o year_n past_a namely_o may_v they_o have_v have_v their_o desire_n and_o can_v their_o vote_n have_v carry_v it_o they_o will_v have_v vote_v out_o ceremony_n government_n by_o archbishop_n bishop_n etc._n etc._n this_o lyturgie_n and_o service-book_n and_o though_o they_o now_o practise_v not_o many_o thing_n they_o do_v before_o but_o forbear_v yet_o some_o thing_n be_v forbear_v as_o be_v matter_n of_o offence_n among_o the_o people_n and_o other_o thing_n as_o have_v be_v a_o occasion_n of_o much_o hurt_n in_o the_o church_n and_o now_o there_o be_v so_o open_a a_o door_n for_o a_o full_a reformation_n they_o do_v labour_n after_o the_o best_a and_o follow_v what_o they_o judge_v most_o for_o edification_n now_o not_o condemn_v all_o their_o former_a practice_n especial_o consider_v those_o time_n unlawful_a and_o sinful_a and_o withal_o to_o consider_v we_o as_o those_o who_o in_o these_o former_a time_n apolog._n for_o many_o year_n suffer_v even_o to_o exile_n for_o what_o the_o kingdom_n itself_o now_o suffer_v in_o the_o endeavour_n to_o cast_v out_o and_o who_o in_o these_o present_a time_n and_o since_o the_o change_n of_o they_o have_v endure_v that_o which_o to_o our_o spirit_n be_v no_o less_o grievous_a the_o opposition_n and_o reproach_n of_o good_a man_n even_o to_o the_o threaten_n of_o another_o banishment_n and_o have_v be_v through_o the_o grace_n of_o god_n upon_o we_o the_o same_o man_n in_o both_o in_o the_o midst_n of_o these_o variety_n and_o final_o as_o those_o that_o do_v pursue_v no_o other_o interest_n or_o design_n but_o a_o subsistence_n be_v it_o the_o poor_a and_o mean_a in_o our_o own_o land_n where_o we_o have_v and_o may_v do_v further_a service_n and_o which_o be_v our_o birthright_n as_o we_o be_v man_n with_o the_o enjoyment_n of_o the_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n which_o be_v our_o portion_n as_o we_o be_v christian_n with_o the_o allowance_n of_o a_o latitude_n to_o some_o lesser_a difference_n with_o peaceablenesse_n as_o not_o know_v where_o else_o with_o safety_n health_n and_o livelihood_n to_o set_v our_o foot_n on_o earth_n for_o my_o part_n i_o wonder_v with_o what_o face_n you_o can_v write_v this_o and_o withal_o to_o consider_v we_o as_o those_o who_o in_o these_o former_a time_n for_o many_o year_n suffer_v even_o to_o exile_n and_o bring_v it_o as_o a_o argument_n to_o the_o parliament_n to_o consider_v you_o the_o more_o namely_o to_o grant_v you_o a_o toleration_n all_o the_o answer_n i_o shall_v return_v be_v that_o the_o parliament_n and_o kingdom_n shall_v and_o may_v do_v well_o to_o look_v upon_o you_o and_o consider_v you_o instead_o of_o many_o year_n suffer_v even_o to_o exile_n as_o man_n who_o voluntary_o go_v into_o another_o country_n nigh_o at_o hand_n to_o live_v safe_o out_o of_o gunshot_n and_o there_o live_v rich_o plentiful_o and_o free_o while_o other_o godly_a minister_n live_v here_o in_o continual_a fear_n danger_n toss_n suspension_n attachment_n and_o consumption_n of_o their_o estate_n it_o be_v strange_a that_o man_n shall_v be_v so_o far_o partial_a as_o to_o frame_v a_o argument_n and_o make_v account_v the_o more_o to_o be_v consider_v and_o favour_v for_o fly_v away_o and_o desert_v the_o cause_n in_o the_o open_a field_n suppose_v some_o captain_n and_o soldier_n in_o the_o parliament_n service_n shall_v put_v up_o a_o petition_n to_o the_o house_n forasmuch_o as_o they_o leave_v the_o rest_n of_o the_o army_n in_o distress_n and_o withdraw_v in_o the_o day_n of_o battle_n and_o never_o return_v till_o the_o enemy_n be_v put_v to_o the_o worst_a and_o the_o battle_n turn_v therefore_o they_o will_v be_v please_v to_o afford_v they_o a_o exemption_n from_o common_a tax_n etc._n etc._n and_o vouchsafe_v they_o some_o special_a privilege_n what_o will_v you_o think_v of_o such_o a_o motion_n the_o application_n be_v obvious_a you_o desert_v the_o cause_n and_o in_o as_o much_o as_o in_o you_o lay_v hazard_v all_o and_o yet_o be_v not_o content_a with_o this_o to_o come_v in_o upon_o the_o victory_n and_o divide_v the_o spoil_n with_o those_o who_o help_v to_o win_v the_o field_n to_o enjoy_v the_o prime_a lecture_n and_o place_n in_o and_o near_o the_o city_n both_o of_o note_n and_o profit_n with_o all_o respect_n and_o countenance_n from_o parliament_n and_o city_n but_o you_o will_v have_v peculiar_o and_o enjoy_v such_o a_o way_n as_o shall_v shut_v out_o all_o in_o comparison_n a_o unreasonable_a request_n and_o a_o strange_a instance_n for_o all_o posterity_n if_o it_o shall_v be_v grant_v for_o our_o part_n many_o of_o we_o who_o bear_v the_o heat_n of_o the_o day_n stand_v to_o it_o and_o venture_v break_v and_o undo_v many_o time_n over_o request_v no_o such_o favour_n nor_o exemption_n but_o to_o take_v our_o lot_n in_o common_a with_o the_o kingdom_n and_o minister_n in_o thing_n establish_v and_o i_o know_v no_o reason_n that_o upon_o any_o consideration_n either_o extrinsicall_a or_o intrinsicall_a you_o shall_v be_v consider_v above_o the_o godly_a minister_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n i_o know_v and_o can_v give_v many_o to_o the_o contrary_a but_o beside_o that_o i_o have_v before_o full_o speak_v more_o than_o once_o how_o little_a there_o be_v in_o this_o argument_n of_o you_o so_o often_o inculcate_v of_o exile_n and_o suffer_v to_o exile_n the_o cause_n here_o render_v by_o you_o of_o your_o suffer_v even_o to_o exile_n namely_o for_o what_o the_o kingdom_n itself_o now_o suffer_v in_o the_o endeavour_n to_o cast_v out_o be_v not_o true_a nor_o proper_a for_o however_o the_o kingdom_n now_o suffer_v for_o cast_v out_o the_o hierarchy_n and_o some_o corruption_n in_o worship_n and_o for_o a_o reformation_n according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o the_o example_n of_o the_o best_a reform_a church_n yet_o your_o suffering_n unto_o exile_n be_v not_o for_o that_o for_o which_o the_o non-conformists'_a more_o forward_o than_o you_o suffer_v but_o your_o leave_v the_o kingdom_n be_v to_o enjoy_v the_o church_n way_n without_o which_o we_o suppose_v you_o will_v not_o be_v content_v though_o ceremony_n episcopacy_n and_o lyturgie_n be_v now_o cast_v out_o by_o the_o kingdom_n as_o the_o fruit_n of_o all_o their_o suffering_n but_o if_o presbytery_n be_v settle_v and_o independency_n may_v not_o be_v tolerate_v you_o will_v go_v away_o the_o second_o time_n and_o may_v be_v call_v that_o exile_n and_o banishment_n too_o as_o for_o your_o endure_v in_o these_o present_a time_n and_o since_o the_o change_n of_o they_o that_o which_o to_o your_o spirit_n be_v no_o less_o grievous_a the_o opposition_n and_o reproach_n of_o good_a man_n by_o which_o you_o will_v further_o persuade_v and_o move_v the_o parliament_n to_o allow_v you_o a_o toleration_n let_v i_o mind_n you_o that_o i_o believe_v in_o no_o age_n five_o man_n practise_v and_o act_v as_o you_o have_v do_v contrary_a to_o the_o judgement_n of_o all_o the_o church_n and_o of_o the_o minister_n your_o brethren_n and_o that_o to_o the_o sensible_a disadvantage_n of_o the_o public_a reformation_n ever_o meet_v with_o less_o opposition_n and_o contradiction_n of_o good_a man_n and_o as_o for_o reproach_n none_o at_o all_o i_o will_v not_o reiterate_v what_o i_o have_v former_o express_v in_o pag._n 226_o 227._o but_o it_o be_v beyond_o all_o precedent_n the_o silence_n compliance_n respect_n fair_a carriage_n you_o have_v be_v entertain_v with_o from_o the_o minister_n and_o good_a man_n neither_o luther_n that_o eminent_a servant_n of_o god_n and_o excellent_a instrument_n nor_o other_o can_v find_v the_o like_a in_o their_o time_n from_o the_o minister_n differ_v from_o they_o and_o therefore_o the_o complaint_n be_v very_o groundless_a and_o to_o