the preaching of the Church as touching the Proposition of things to be beleeued but not as the reason of beleeuing For they who propound the doctrine of Faith withall admonish that that doctrine is revealed from God and that God not themselues is to be beleeved And what Is not the holy Catholike Church it selfe an Article of the Creed If it bee why should the rest of the Articles need to be sustained by an higher Principle more then it For if you may be bold to question any of them vntill it be resolued by the Churches authoritie I hope I may be as bold to question the Churches authoritie vntill it be warranted by some farther Principle I demand therefore why you beleeue the Church Because forsooth her authority is infallible And how know you that it is infallible Here of necessity you must either vouch her owne testimonie or betake you to some other thing To stick vpon her testimonie without farther enquirie is absurd For seeing her voice is not the first veritie that being the Prerogatiue of him only who is from all eternity her veracity must needs bee as doubtfull as her infallible authority And indeed this as a very learned Divine exemplifieth it were as if one whose authority is questioned taking vpon him to bee a law-giuer should first make a law and thereby giue himselfe power and afterward by vertue of that power exercise authority over others But if to establish the Churches authority you seek out of her to some other thing as suppose the Scriptures for so I remember you answered me being demanded the same Question then haue I obtained what I would namely that the Church is not the first ground of Faith because by your owne confession there is a former to wit the Scripture Neither is it true that Catholike men hold the Churches authority to be the first Ground For although some pretended Catholikes those I meane who call themselues Roman catholikes may so conceaue of their Church vnderstanding by the Church the Roman church yet neither are they true Catholikes neither is the Roman church the Catholike church neither doe any true Catholikes ground their Faith so True catholikes they are not because they hold a new Faith not that which Catholikely hath beene held in all ages as appeareth by those twelue new Articles lately added to the Creed vnknown vnto the purer times of the Primitiue church Neither is the Roman church the Catholike Church Not in regard of time for Christ had his Church when Rome was not yet Christian. Nor in respect of place for Catholike is Universall Roman Particular that the Church of the whole world this of one Citie or Diocese only Nor lastly in regard of her authority ouer al other Churches for that which she challengeth is but vsurped the Church of Africk in a Councell of two hundred and seuenteene Bishops of whom S. Augustine was a principall with much indignation reiected it and the Greeke church hitherto could never be drawne to acknowledge it And as for those that are true Catholikes they build not their Faith vpon so weake a Ground but rest both it and the Church her selfe vpon the Scriptures The Apostle S. Paul buildeth the whole Houshold of God vpon no other foundation then that of the Prophets and Apostles Knowe thou saith Origen that Christ alwaies appeareth on the mountaines and hills to teach thee that thou seeke him no where but in the mountaines of the Law and Prophets And the Auhor of the imperfect worke on Mathew The Lord knowing the confusion of things that would happen in the latter daies commandeth that such Christians as will receaue assurance of faith fâ—ie to no other thing but the Scripture And Tertullian Take from Hereticks that which they haue common with the heathen that they be content to stint all questions by the scriptures only and they cannot stand And S. Hierom The church of Christ hath for her cities the Law the Prophets the Gospell Apostles she passeth not beyond her limits that is the holy scriptures S. Augustine in the scriptures we learne Christ in the scriptures we learn the Church And againe I say not if we but if an Angell froÌ„ heauen shall deliuer any thing of Christ or his Church or of faith manners besides that which ye haue receiued in the Scriptures of the Law and Gospell let him be accursed And againe he affirmeth that the Church is to be proued by the Canonical bookes of Scripure and nothing else and that they only are the Demonstration of our cause the very foundation and ground plot whereon we are to build N. N. For proofe of this ground Saint Augustine handleth this matter in a speciall booke to his friend Honoratus deceiued by the Manichees as himselfe also sometimes had bin and he entituleth his booke De vtilitate credendi His discourse is this Suppose that wee now first of all did seeke vnto what Religion we should commit our soules to bee purged and rectified Without all doubt wee must begin with the Catholike Church for that shee is the most eminent now in the world there being more Christians in her this day then in any other Church of Iewes Gentiles put together And albeit among these Christians there be Sects and Heresies and all of them would seeme to be Catholikes and doe call others besides themselues Hereticks yet all grant that if wee consider the whole Body of the World there is one Church among them more eminent then all other and more plentifull in number and as they which know her doe affirme more sincere also in the truth But as concerning truth wee shall dispute more afterward now it is sufficient for them that desire to learne that there is a Catholike Church which is one in it selfe wherevnto diverse Heretickes doe faine and devise divers names whereas they and their Sects are called by peculiar names which themselues cannot deny Whereby all men that are indifferent and not letted by passion may vnderstand vnto what Church the name Catholike which all parts desire and pretend is to bee given Thus St Augustine c. I. D. So maine a point as is the last resolution of faith ought to haue beene better warranted then by the single authority of one Father who how eminent soever hee was in his time yet is not his sole word of strength enough to beare vp such a weight Why did you not vouch the testimony of Saint Paul or Saint Peter or some other of the holy penmen of Gods booke which cannot deceiue you then Saint Augustine or any other of the antient Fathers who both haue erred themselues and may mislead you But thus it is with Papists the more the shame the bare name of a Father swayes them more then the clearest passage of holy writ Howbeit this I say not as if we feared the triall of the Fathers for be it known vnto you wee haue more
CERTAINE TREATISES OF THE LATE REVEREND and Learned Divine Mr Iohn Downe Rector of the Church of Instow in Devonshire Bachelour of Divinity and sometimes Fellow of Emanuell Colledge in Cambridge Published at the instance of his friends Opera eorum sequentur cos OXFORD Printed by Iohn Lichfield for Edward Forrest A.D. 1633. TO THE RIGHT REVEREND FATHER IN GOD the Lord Bishop of Exeter his worthy Diocesan AS ALSO TO HIS FELLOVV BRETHREN THE REVEREND DIVINES of that Diocesse THE PVBLISHER OF THESE ENSUING WORKES makes bold to dedicate them in the name of his deceased Friend The Contents of these treatises 1 The funerall Sermon on behalfe of the author of these ensuing workes 2 A letter of the Lord Bishop of Exeter concerning the Author of these workes 3 A treatise concerning the force and efficacy of reading 4 Christs prayer for his Church 5 A Godly discourse of selfe-denyall 6 An apology of the justice of God 7 An Amulet or preservatiue against the contempt of the Ministry 8 The Dowe-like serpent 9 Subiection to the Higher Powers 10 A defence of the lawfulnesse of Lots in gaming against the arguments of N.N. 11 The reall presence by Transubstantiation vnknowne to the ancient Fathers 12 A defence of the former answere against the replie of N.N. THE FVNERALL SERMON ON BEHALFE OF THE AVTHOR OF THESE ensuing workes PREACHED BY GEORGE HAKEWILL Dr OF Divinity and Arch-deacon of Surrey a neere neighbour and deere friend vnto him OXFORD Printed by I.L. for E. F. 1633. DAN 12.3 They that be wise or teachers shall shine as the brightnesse of the firmament and they that turne many vnto righteousnesse as the Starres for ever and ever WORDS worthy to bee drawne out in Capitall letters of Gold to bee written with a beame of the Sunne or as Chrysostome speakes in another case with a quill taken from the wing of a Seraphin words which as I am now informed this deare and Reverend Brother of ours deceased the occasion of this present meeting aboue twenty yeares since made choice of vpon the like occasion at the funerall of a worthy divine well knowne to a great part here present so that I cannot but herein obserue the speciall favour of God pointing mee as it were with the finger of his providence to the very same text which himselfe made choice of vpon the like occasion but my doubt is that neither the straits of time nor my slender abilities will permit mee to handle it as I am assured hee did though I heard him not They are the words of the Lord of hosts the great Iehovah sent by an Angel to the Prophet Daniel highly favoured of his God and as highly commended for his singular vprightnesse and great Wisdome and by him as a principall Secretary of the holy Ghost left vpon record to posterity for the Churches vse so that whether we regard the matter of them or the Author from whom they are sent or the Person to whom wee haue every way great reason to afford them our best attention Now that we may somewhat the better conceaue the sense of them it shall not perchance be amisse a little to reflect vpon the words going before from the beginning of the chapter 1 At that time shall Michael stand vp the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time thy people shall be deliuered every one that shall be found written in the booke And many of them that sleepe in the dust of the earth shall awake some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt Where by Michael as I take it mystically at least if not historically Christ is meant hee being the great Prince both of his and Daniels people which is his Church by his standing vp his comming to judgement by the time of trouble the day of the worlds dissolution which shall be indeed terrible and troublesome to the vnbeleevers and impenitent but to the righteous a day of refreshing and deliverance whose names are written in the booke of life Then many that is all of them that sleepe that are dead and buried and it may bee rotten in the dust of the earth shall be awaked or raised vp by the power of God some that is the godly to everlasting life a life of ioy and happinesse and some that is the wicked to everlasting shame and contempt not only so but to everlasting paine and torment To which very words our Saviour seemes to allude The houre is comming in the which all that are in the graues shall heare his voyce And shall come forth they that haue done good vnto the resurrection of life and they that haue done evill vnto the resurrection of damnation The day of judgement and the resurrection of the dead thus described then follow the words of my text resuming the former branch of the precedent division They that are wise shall shine as the brightnesse of the firmament and they that turne many vnto righteousnesse as the starrs for ever and ever Which without straining kindly enough and of themselues fall asunder into two parts the Persons to be rewarded and the Reward In the persons rewardable we haue a gift required and two acts issuing from this gift The gift is wisedome the first act issueing there from is teaching the second turning of men vnto righteousnesse by vertue of teaching As our wisedome is from God so it should be in part referred to the teaching of others and our teaching be directed to the converting or iustifying of sinners as the Hebrew hath it In the Reward we haue the condition of it shining the different degrees of this shining resembled by the brightnesse of the firmament and that of the starrs the latter farre surpassing the former and lastly the perpetuall duration of both these degrees for ever and ever I will beginne with the gift to be rewarded wisedome Wisedome is of all vertues the most eminent and excellent the most soveraigne and divine making vs most like vnto him who is the only wise God shee is the Mistres the Lady the Queene the crowne of them all and where shee is none of them can be wanting Nullum numen abest si sit prudentia If they were all compacted into one body one chaine one ringe the eye of this body the medaile of this chaine the gemme of this ringe could be none other then wisedome The kinds thereof are diverse being taken in the better sense I will reduce them to foure heads Intellectuall Morall Civill and Spirituall whereof the first consists in the activity of the rationall powers of the minde in the knowledge of the languages and the liberall arts and sciences the second in a gracefull a comely and discreet carriage of our selues the third in an orderly government of corporations and societies committed to
taught in all schooles By what way or meanes is the knowledge of Gods will declared in his word to bee attained By diligent reading and meditating of Gods word or by attentiue hearing the same read and purely expounded by others The booke of Homilies affirmeth that the reading of Scripture breedeth knowledge turneth illuminateth comforteth incourageth and againe expressely The ordinary way to attaine the knowledge of God and our selues is with diligence to heare and read the holy Scripture Finally if the iudgement of the chiefe governours of our Church and the publike authorizing of bookes for the maintenance hereof be a sufficient argument I dare bee bold to say that this is the very doctrine of the Church of England Sure I am that the reverend father of this Diocesse who best should know it gaue expresse commandement that it should publikely in this pulpit bee acknowledged that reading is an ordinary meanes to beget Faith and not Preaching only as they tearme it Thus our latter Divines I haue but one thing more to say in this point and it is this that howsoever these men may differ from Papists in other opinions yet I see not how they can cleare themselues from Popery in this For to omit all consequences which necessarily follow vpon it thus in plaine termes say the Iesuits of Rhemes Faith cometh ordinarily of preaching and hearing and not of reading and writing And Bellarmine Scripture was not given to this end to be a rule of Faith but to be a certaine profitable commonitory to preserue and nourish that doctrine which is receaued by preaching And Stapleton Reading is not via ordinaria the ordinary way to Faith and againe Scripture binds not a man to beleeue neither is Faith to be had by it but only as it is preached by the Church Lastly Charron Faith is by the word Preached and pronounced by voice not written or read Againe Thou beleeuest because thou readest thou art no Christian for the Christian beleeueth afore reading and without And againe Faith got by Reading is acquisite humane studied not Christian and he that hath it is no Christian his Faith must haue another name Iump almost with that ere while quoted out of Hieron ordinarily knowledge so gotten is but vaine iangling and swimmeth in the braine but renewes not the heart Thus Papists against whom our men mainely oppose themselues herein And thus haue I at length resolued the three Questions in the beginning propounded and as I trust maintained the truth of God and that as becommeth the truth with the spirit of meeknesse and sobriety Withall as I suppose I haue made a sufficient Apologie both for my selfe and other my reverend brethren who in the general vnderstanding of the ordinary auditory of this place haue beene publikely censured as Seducing Spirits for holding that which I haue now maintained Reason would that he who seemed to lay this scandall vpon vs should haue made publike amends and either haue interpreted himselfe if he were mis-vnderstood or acknowledged his rashnesse if he did so censure But seeing it will not be and so much charity cannot be found in the heart yea over and aboue seeing I haue since that time beene braued to my face and as I am credibly informed often insulted vpon behinde my back as if I durst not publikely shew my face in these points though otherwise I could haue beene content to hold my peace for the peace of the Church yet now I could doe no other then I haue done and pardon me I beseech you for herevnto haue I beene forced and constrained Sooner perhaps would I haue discharged my selfe of this burthen if sooner I could haue met with so fit an auditory For who can better testifie of what I say or are fitter to be iudges and vmpires in such a businesse then you my reverend and beloved bretheren of the Cleargie To you therefore and to your graue censure doe I referre both my selfe whatsoever I haue said duly remembring that of the Apostle Paul the spirit of the Prophets is subiect to the Prophets And now giue mee leaue to addresse my speech vnto you my beloued bretheren of the Laitie specially you that are the ordinarie auditory of this place Let mee intreat you all not again to mistake me as if by what I haue said I went about any way to derogate from Sermons I say mistake me not againe for once already haue I beene either ignorantly or wilfully misconstrued Preaching some while since in this place on Luc. 20.34.35 and enquiring as my Text occasioned me who they were that should be accounted worthy to obtaine the next world and the resurrection from the dead I affirmed first in generall that it was not semblance only or shew of religion that could make a man worthie and then in particular that a man might be a frequent auditor of Sermons might goe two three foure more miles to heare them all the while might looke the Preacher starke in the face afterward returne with ioy call to minde talke conferre and repeat the same and yet for all this still be counted vnworthy And fearing least I should bee mis-vnderstood I then intreated you not to mistake me as if I misliked Sermons or the going to them Nay I exhorted you to goe provided you went not with contempt of Divine Service at home nor departing from your owne Minister how meane a Preacher soever none I thinke being so meane but is able to teach you more then you knowe provided also that you passe not through the Church-yards of as reverend and learned men as these parts afford any to go a mile further to heare a novice and when you are returned that your repetitions bee not vaineglorious with such a rumble and after the manner of a riot but modest and severally in your owne houses and lastly that the fruit of your often hearing be not a demure looke onely and a prating tongue but true humility charity which best conformeth vs vnto IESVS CHRIST These things I then said and for ought I yet see said not amisse yet am I censured as an enimie to Sermons as one that greeues the hearts of Gods Saints and lash the faults of Hypocrites on the backes of Gods children Wherefore you see I haue reason now to be warie of my selfe and to prevent the like danger that I bee not the second time mistaken as if I spake in derogation of Sermons Sermons I acknowledge to be the blessed ordinance of God as learned Hooker saith they are the keyes to the kingdome of heauen wings to the soule spurres to our good affections food to them that are sound and healthy and vnto diseased mindes physicke Whatsoever any can truely say in honour of them withall our hearts we subscribe vnto it If comparison be made betweene Reading and Sermons wee readily yeeld the precedencie to Sermons For although it be the same word which is read
philosophâ sententiâ I detest those men whose mouthes are full of the rules of Morality yet practise none of them But in a Minister of the Gospell it is yet a fouler incongruity if their words and workes disagree When Demades saw king Philip dancing I wonder ô Philip quoth he seeing thou bearest the person of a King that thou dost the workes of Thersites Much more rightly may I say of these I marvell that hauing taken vpon them the office of Phinees with what face they can act the part of Zimri Impudent beyond measure must they needs be who being guiltie none more of drunkennesse adultery blasphemy and the like yet lift vp their voices like trumpets and presume in open pulpit bitterly to inveigh against the same sinnes in others Every one will say to such a one Medice cura teipsum Physitian heale thy selfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you take vpon you to cure others being your selues full of boyles and vlcers It is altogether preposterous for a strumpet to take vpon her the reformation of the stewes Manus quae sordes abluit munda esse debet saith Gregory the hand had need to bee cleane that cleanseth other things The Spartans when an evill man gaue them good counsell caused an honest man to say the same then imbraced it What speake I of Spartans God cannot abide that a wicked mā hating to be reformed should once take his covenant in his mouth A more dangerous pestilence then a lewd Minister there cannot be the contagion of his life quickly infecteth euery one thinketh it not only lawfull but safe also to follow his guide And thus I feare doe they many times reason the Preacher indeed earnestly disswades from sinne and perswades vnto sanctitie of life threatning hell vnto the one and promising heauen vnto the other but if he beleeued verily that there is a heauen or a hell doe you thinke hee would liue such a deboisht and dissolute life as he doth He knowes well enough what he doth none better let vs doe as hee doth eat and drinke and be merry for to morrow wee shall die And thus Hophni Phinees behauing themselues like the sonnes of Belial are the very causes of Atheisme and prophanenesse in the world and by this meanes draw contempt not only on themselues but also vpon the sacrifices and religion of God But contrarily whosoever saith our Saviour Christ shall doe the commandements of God himselfe and teach others to doe them too shall be called great in the Kingdome of Heaven Of such a one it will bee reported that God is in him of a truth The Saints will receiue him as an Angell of God even as Christ Iesus and be ready to plucke out their eyes to giue them to him As for others he cannot but finde approuement in their consciences for as the wise heathen said Adeò gratiosa est virtus vt insitum etiam malis sit probare meliora so gratious a thing is vertue that even wicked men by the instinct of nature allow and commend that which is good And thus much of the third and last part the redresse of our contempt Now it remaines before I dismisse you briefly to make some particular application And here though I well might yet will I not extend my exhortation farther then our Apostle doth his hee restraineth his to Titus that is to the Minister so will I mine First therefore if according to our hopes and desires wee might now haue enioyed the presence of the reverend Father of this Diocesse I would humbly haue intreated him to See that Titus be not despised That to this end he would haue speciall care whom hee admits into this holy order for Non ex quolibet ligno fit Mercurius every man is not fit to make a Minister Farre be it from so reverend a Bishop either with Ieroboam to make Priests of the basest of the people or with Caligula to destinate his horse Incitatus to the Consulship That also hee would be pleased to beare an eye vpon those that are already admitted to countenance those that walke worthy of their places and severely to censure such as either by their idlenesse or misliuing scandalize their profession But I represse my selfe and from him that is absent turne my speech vnto you that are present and haue delegate power and authority from him You and those that depend vpon you doe I earnestly beseech to see to it also that Titus be not despised Good reason haue I thus to beseech you for your exorbitations and abuses redound to the dishonour of your Lord though he neither act them nor approue them and from him descend to the skirts of his clothing vs his inferiour Ministers Shall I tell you a story David sonne to Philip the good Duke of Burgundy being Bishop of Vtrecht would needs one day not by his Poser but by himselfe make triall of those that offered themselues to holy orders and finding them vnsufficient reiected all but three His officers therewith offended said it would be a foule shame to the Church if of three hundred three only should be admitted To whom the Bishop it would bee a fouler shame if insteed of men asses might be admitted Yea but say they this age breeds not Pauls and Hieroms you must take such as it affords I require not such quoth the Bishop but asses will I not admit Then must you increase our wages say they for by such asses doe wee liue Thus you see that inferiour officers sometime commit errors which the superiors know not of wherewith notwithstanding hee is charged and that they seeke more their owne advantage then the dignity either of the Church or the Churches Ministry It was the complaint of Saint Bernard in his time that Church officers studied more how to empty mens purses then to reforme their vices I feare these times are little better and that our mony is rather visited then our manners so the fees come in roundly no matter how irregularly men liue O that your principall aime were to redresse abuses to remoue scandalls out of the Church how pretious would your name bee among the Saints and what honour might you gaine both to Church and Churchmen What shall I farther say No more but this Your Courts are called Christian God grant your carriage may be so Christian in them that they may ever truly be as they are called My last addresse shall be to you my brethren and fellowes in the Ministry whom I adiure in the name of Iesus Christ carefully to see that no man despise you And to this end Hoc agite Take heede both to your selues and the flocke over which the holy Ghost hath made you overseers To your selues that you may proue Good men to your flocks that you may approue your selues Good Ministers Either by it selfe will not serue the turne what God hath joyned together may not be put asunder Liue
called his bloud What words can bee more plaine And yet againe the Bloud of Christ cannot seeme to be in the cup when wine is wanting to the cup whereby the bloud of Christ is declared Athanasius He distinguished the spirit from the flesh that wee might learne that the things hee spake are not carnall but Spirituall For how many men would his Body haue sufficed that it might be the food of the whole world But therefore hee made mention of his ascension into heaven that hee might draw them from corporall vnderstanding and then might vnderstand his flesh whereof he spake to be meate from aboue the Heavenly and spirituall food which he would giue Here expresly he reiecteth the Corporall eating of Christs Body and acknowledgeth none other but that which is spirituall Eusebius Bishop of Cesaâ—ia Our Saviour and Lord first and then all the Priests that haue followed in all nations celebrating the spirituall divine service according to the ordinances of the Church signifie vnto vs by the Bread and Wine the mysteries of his body and bloud If they signify them they are not the same Macarius They knew not that in the Church Bread and Wine was to be offered as the anti-type of his flesh and bloud and that those who partake of the visible bread spiritually eat the flesh of the Lord. A knot of arguments Bread Wine are offered they are Anti-types of Christs Flesh and Bloud they are receiued of vs and the eating of Christs flesh is spirituall Your Cyril of Hierusalem As the Bread of the Eucharist after the invocation of the Holy Ghost is no more common bread but the body of Christ so this holy ointment is no more bare and common ointment after it is consecrated but the gift of Christ. Not common bread saith hee yet bread and the body as the Ointment is the Grace of Christ. But Grace it is not by conversion into it for it remaineth ointment still but by accession of Grace vnto it Ambrose speaking of the miracles of the Prophets who changed the Nature of things and comparing therewith that which is done in the Sacrament as being nothing lesse at length concludeth It is no lesse to giue new natures vnto things then to change their natures plainely intimating that in the Sacrament Nature is not changed but some thing is added aboue Neture Wherefore else where hee saith in expresse tearmes If there bee so great force in the word of the Lord that they should beginne to bee what they were not how much more operatiue are they that they bee what they were and yet be changed into another thing Lo bread and Wine are changed yet remaine what they were changed therefore not in substance but in vse and signification Saint Basil in his Liturgy for him you make the author thereof He ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of thy Maiesty on high who shall also come to render vnto every one according to his workes But hee hath left these Memorialls or monuments of his healthfull passion which wee set forth according to his commandement Hee is gone and hath left vs Memorialls of himselfe Ergo himselfe is not here For remembrance is of things past not present Gregory Nazianzen Now we shall bee partakers of the Passeouer but as yet in a figure though more cleare then in the old Law for the passeouer of the Law I will not be a fraid to say it was but a more obscure figure of a figure The Passeouer therefore in proper speech is not a figure of the Lords Supper but both of them are Figures of the death of Christ. Gregory Nyssen declaring the change of Water in Baptisme expresseth it by three similitudes of an Altar which being dedicated vnto Gods Worship of a common stone is made a holy table of Bread in the Eucharist which by Consecration is no longer common bread but the Body of Christ and of a Priest who of a vulgar and ordinary man is by the blessing made a teacher Prelate of divine mysteries Bread therefore is no more transubstantiated then Water in Baptisme the stone of the Altar or the Priest Cyril of Alexandria Doest thou say that our Sacrament is the eating of a man and doest thou Vrge our minde vnto the grosse thoughts that beleeued so and doest thou attempt with humane thoughts to handle those things which cannot bee receiued but only with a pure and exquisite faith The Flesh of Christ therefore is not eaten with the mouth for that were to eate a man but only with a pure Faith Epiphanius After he had given thankes he said This of mee is that and wee see that it is not equall nor like neither to the incarnate image nor the invisible Deity nor to the lineaments of his members For this is oblong or of roule fashion senselesse as concerning power If it bee vnequall to Christ and void of Sence then is it not Christ. Saint Chrysostome before consecration wee call it bread but Divine grace through the ministry of the Priest sanctifying it it is freed from the name of bread and counted worthy of the appellation of the Lords body although the nature of bread continue in it Behold the nature of bread remaineth after Consecration and yet it is called the Body of Christ. And againe If therefore it be dangerous to convert vnto private vses these sanctified vessels in which the true body of Christ is not but the mystery of Christs body is contained how much more the vessels of our body which God hath prepared to be an habitation for himselfe ought wee not to giue way vnto the Divell to doe in theÌ„ what he pleaseth Not the Body but the mysteries are contained in the vessels if so what becomes of your Reall presence Hierom The wicked nor eate the flesh of Iesus nor drinke his bloud But they eat and drinke the Eucharist Ergo it is not the Flesh and Bloud of Christ. Againe Wee may eate of that Sacrifice which is wonderfully made in commemoration of Christ but of that which Christ offered vpon the Altar of the Crosse no man may eate The Sacrifice then of the Sacrament is not that of the Crosse and the Body offered on the Crosse is not eaten in the Sacrament Saint Augustine The Apostles ate the Bread the Lord Iudas the bread of the Lord against the Lord. Againe He that disagreeth from Christ neither eateth the Flesh of Christ nor drinketh his Bloud although he daily receiue the Sacrament of so great a thing to iudgement Obserue the Bread of the Lord not that which is the Lord and the Sacrament of Christs Flesh and Bloud not his Flesh and Bloud So againe you shall not eate this body which you see nor drinke that bloud which my crucifiers shall shed I haue commended vnto you a Sacrament which spiritually vnderstood shall quicken you And yet againe
As the heavenly bread which is the Flesh of Christ after its manner is called the Body of Christ being in truth the Sacramentâ— of Christs Body Marke that which is called Body is not so in truth but only in signe and after a manner Pope Leo Christ being lifted vp into heaven set an end to his Bodily Presence being to abide at the right hand of his Father vntill the times appointed by God for the multiplying of the Sonnes of the Church be accomplished If till then he haue set an end to his Bodily presence then till that time he is no more here Fulgentius the holy Catholike Church throughout the whole world ceaseth not to offer vnto Christ the sacrifice of Bread and Wine in Faith and Charity If a Sacrifice of bread and wine then is it bread and wine after consecration Pope Gelasius certainly the Sacraments of the body and bloud of Christ which wee receiue is a divine thing wherefore by them are wee made partakers of the divine nature and yet the substance or nature of Bread and Wine cease not to bee And verily the image and similitude of the body and bloud of Christ are celebrated in these mysteries And They passe by the worke of the holy Ghost into a divine substance continuing notwithstanding in the propriety of their nature Lo the Substance and Nature of bread remaine and the Sacrament is but an image and Similitude of Christs body What can be more plaine Theodoret Himselfe hath honoured the Visible Symbols with the name of his body and bloud not changing their nature but adding grace vnto nature And againe disputing against an Eutychian Heretike who to overthrow the Humanity of Christ had thus argued that as the signes in the Eucharist are after Consecration changed so the body of our Lord after the assumption thereof was changed into the Divine substance hee bringeth in Orthodaxus thus answering Thou art taken in thine owne nets for the mysticall signes after consecration depart not from their proper nature For they remaine in their former substance and figure and forme and are visible and tangible as formerly they were but are vnderstood to bee thee things they are made and beleeued and are honoured as being the things they are beleeued These passages of Gelasius and Theodoret are the very racke gibbet of you Papists wherevnto the best of you know not what to answere but only that by substance Accident is meant An incredible obstinacy and madnesse and needing rather a Physitian to cure it then a disputer to confute it For with as good reason may you say that by white blacke is meant and by Heaven Hell and any thing by whatsoever Lastly Gregory the Great proueth the truth of Christs body against Eutychius by those words of our Saviour Handle mee and see Can you proue the truth of Christs body in the Sacrament by the same argument Verily if that which is neither felt nor seene be not Flesh Bone neither is the Flesh of Christ in the Sacrament for it is neither felt nor sâ—ene And if bread bee transubstantiated only by vertue of those words This is my body then in the Apostles time there was no Transubstantiation at all For as Gregory saith The manner of the Apostles was only by the Lords prayer to consecrate the host of the Oblation And thus haue you a full grand Iury of the ancient Fathers all of them liuing within sixe hundred yeares after Christ and with joynt consent crossing your new vpstart fiction of the Reall Presence To these I might easily adde a long list of those who succeeded in after times as Bede Rabanus Maurus Walafridus Strabo Bertram Waleram Bishop of Medburg Druthmarus and others not one of them in their times taxed for errour in this point But I will only relate what the Doctrine of the Church of England was about seauen hundred yeares after Christ as appeareth by those Homilies that then were publikely read vnto the people The holy Font water that is called the well-spring of life is like in shape to other waters and is subiect to corruption but the holy Ghosts might cometh to the water through the Priests blessing and it can after wash the body and soule from all sin through Ghostly might Behold now wee see two things in this one creature After true nature that water is corruptible water and after ghostly mystery hath hollowing might So also if wee behold that holy housel after bodily vnderstanding then see wee that it is a creature corruptible and mutable if we acknowledge therein ghostly might then vnderstand wee that life is therein and that it giueth immortality to them that eate it with beleefe Much is betwixt the invisible might of the holy housel the visible shape of his proper nature It is naturally corruptible Bread and corruptible Wine is by might of Gods word truly Christs Body and his bloud not so notwithstanding bodily but Ghostly Much is betwixt the body Christ suffered in and the body that is hallowed to housel The body truly that Christ suffered in was borne of the flesh of Mary with bloud and with bone with skinne and with sinews with humane limmes with a reasonable soule liuing and his Ghostly body which we call the housel is gathered of many cornes without bloud and bone without limme without Soule And therefore nothing is to bee vnderstood therein bodily but all is Ghostly to be vnderstood Thus the Homily and thus much thereof haue I thought good here at large to set downe to the end you may know that our Ancestors in this Iland notwithstanding your loud craks to the contrary haue not alwaies at leastwise in this point beene Papists Besides these testimonies of antiquity wee haue their customes also against you St Hierom reporteth that in the Primitiue times after the holy Communion was ended they were wont to feast together in the Church and to spend the residue of the Eucharist that remained Hesychius saith that it was the custome not to reserue till the morrow as your manner now adaies is but to burne what fragments soeuer remained of the consecrated Elements Evagrius and Nicephorus both doe testifie that the ancient custome of the Church of Constantinople was to send for little children from the schoole such as otherwise were barred from the Communion to giue the remainders of the Sacrament to them Had the Church in those daies verily beleeued that it had been the true and Real body of Christ doe you thinke they would so haue profaned it by feasting vpon it and bestowing it on children Or that they would with such impietie and sacrilege haue burned and consumed it in the fire It is altogether incredible As incredible therefore that they held it to be the Lords Body But of Antiquity enough Fiftly and lastly it implieth in it innumerable contradictions which according to the rule of Logick cannot
Bellarmine this confession that it followeth not necessarily where succession is there is a Church Nor Continuance For the malignant Church hath lasted hitherto and will yet longer and many of the Churches planted by the Apostles are now failed which yet were true Churches Nor Visibility For the Church of Greece which you count Hereticall hath ever since the first founding of it beene and is still Visible And such Persecutions and Scandalls may arise in the Church as may much eclipse the glory thereof reducing the Saints to a small number scattering the Ministers suspending the exercise of Ecclesiasticall discipline and interrupting the publike service so as the true Professors seeking shelter from the storme shall hardly bee discerned So was it vnder the old Testament in the daies of Elias so vnder the new when the whole world groned vnder Arianisme and so shall it bee in the time of Antichrist as out of your writers in the former treatise I haue already declared Nor lastly Vnitie For as the Church of God is one so the Divels Babylon is also one And who knowes not what jars and dissentions sometimes were among the Corinthians and Galatians and betweene the East and West Churches about the celebration of Easter which neverthelesse were true Churches And thus you see how vncertaine and deceivable your notes be If this yet be not enough to perswade you I hope being backed with authority of your great Cardinall Bellarmine it may suffice who maketh them in themselues to bee but probable N. N. If it could be proved that these notes belong to the Protestant Church it would much alter your opinion I. D. It seemes you take for granted that these notes are to be found in the Romā Church But you presume too farre Was never a more broken Succession in any Church then that Who at the first succeeded whom is vncertaine namely in what order Linus Clemens Cletus Anacletus should stand About thirty Schisms haue beene therein some of them continuing scores of yeares together in which haue beene two Popes three Popes at once neither could it easily bee discerned which was lawfull Pope Fifty of them in a row were Monsters rather then Men Apotacticall and Apostaticall rather then Apostolicall How many haue intruded themselues into that See by Simonie How many haue beene intruded at the pleasure of harlots Yea a Whore hath sitten in the Pontificall chaire So saith Sigebert Marianus Scotus Bergomensis Iohannes Stella Nauclerus Iohannes Lucidus Baptista Ignatius Balaeus Sabellicus Ranulphus Petrarch Boccace Mathew Palmer Trithemius and Martinus Polonus all which it will bee hard for your new vpstarts of yesternight to outface or controle As for the rest of your Notes if the present Church of Rome be much degenerated from its Primitiue purity and nothing resemble that which Saint Paul first planted there as I am ready to proue whensoever you shall call vpon me for it then are they not to be found therein For neither hath it continued the same nor is the profession by which it is Visibly the same nor is it One with it selfe For of other differences and dissentions among you you shall heare more anon in the due place But can wee finde them in the Protestant Church Let vs trie That the Succession of Bishops in the Church of England vntil Arch-Bishop Cranmers time was lawfull I know you will not deny That he and all the Bishops in the time of K. Edward and Q. Elizabeth and so downeward were Canonically called and consecrated what stronger proofe can you desire then the publike Registers of every See Out of which so much as concernes this businesse is now published to the view of the whole world designing both the time when the place where together with the names of those Bishops that imposed hands And this is so cleare that your owne Cudsemius comming into England of purpose to obserue the state of our Church thus writeth concerning the state of the Calvinian sect in England it so standeth that it may either endure long or be suddenly changed and in a trice in regard of the Catholike order there in a perpetuall line of their Bishops and the lawfull succession of Pastors receiued from the Church for the honour whereof wee vse to call the English Calvinists by a milder tearme not Hereticks but Schismaticks Touching your other three Notes I presume it will not be denyed that a Church professing to beleeue in the Lord Iesus and by him in the holy and blessed Trinity and confessing all the Doctrines contained in the Scriptures together with the three Creeds of the Apostles the Nicene and of Athanasius hath hitherto continued Visible and in Vnity from the Apostles times And such is the Church of the Protestants for all this we both professe and confesse and whatsoever wee affirmatiuely hold the same in a manner doe you affirme with vs. For as for the Negatiues they are but novelties nor can you proue them out of any Antiquity Succession therefore Continuance visibility vnity belong vnto our Church I must entreat you to remember your promise and according therevnto to alter your mind And so much for your preamble N. N. Your treatise was not intended to me Howbeit you thank mee for my reply acknowledging your inability to answer and hoping I expect it not from you I. D. Whether your Treatise were intended to me or no is not much materiall Sure I am it was delivered mee as from you and therevpon did I returne you that reply which had it taken due effect I should haue had more cause to thanke God then now you haue to thanke mee Answer from your selfe I confesse I expected none◠for I knew your insufficiency But I hoped you would haue taken counsell of some more sufficient then your selfe and vpon conference with them haue sent me your common Answer Which because you haue not done being conscious to your owne inability it is a manifest argument of wilfull obstinacy and that you will not bee perswaded though be perswaded N. N. Notwithstanding you haue no reason to beleeue mee seeing other Divines not Papists only but Protestants also seeme to vnderstand the Fathers as you doe I. D. It is a foule vntruth that Protestants vnderstand the Fathers as you doe as shall by and by to your shame appeare In the meane season know that what I haue said I haue not barely affirmed but soundly proved and neglecting demonstratiue reasons meerely to bee swayed with humane authority is no other then to put off common sense and to forget that wee are reasonable creatures N. N. I except only against two or three passages the rest therefore are truly related and the letter of them is for the reall Presence Which how it can bee and yet no Transubstantion you vnderstand not The word Transubstantiation was indeed devised in the counsell of Lateran but the thing was alwaies beleeved of the ancient Fathers as appeareth by their words Conversion
Mutation and the like I. D. Had you attentiuely read my Answer you would never haue said I excepted to two or three Passages only For I excepted to all the passages of Ignatius Cyril of Hierusalem in his Catechismes Ambrose de Sacramentis and Mysterijs initiandis Eusebius Emissenus Cyprian de caena Domini the Canon of the Nicen counsell and Magnetes as suspected by your owne Rabbies not to be the men whose names they beare Againe of Damascen Theophylact Euthymius Nicephorus and Rupertus as being Punies and too young to be Fathers besides those many Passages which are miserably either curtald or rackt or falsely alleaged Neither are their words so plain for you as you pretend For I haue made it to appeare that some of them say nothing at all for you some speak rather against you then for you and to those that seeme to say any thing I haue opposed a whole grand Iury speaking farre more plainely on our side For what words can be more plaine then these This is my body that is the figure of my Body that Christ said This bread is my body which your owne men grant cannot bee true vnlesse figuratiuely vnderstood that Bread and Wine still are what they were that the Nature of bread continues that the nature of bread and wine cease not to be but continue in the propriety of their nature that the signes after consecration depart not from their proper nature but remaine in their former substance figure and forme and suchlike many But perhaps your Fathers speake as plainely Let vs try that They say that the Body flesh and bloud of Christ is truly in the Sacrament Ergo a Reall Presence Who denies it Transubstantiation is that which you should proue which Reall Presence inferres not This you say you vnderstand not The more is your dulnesse For Really and Corporally are not all one and that which is Spiritually present is Really present vnlesse you will say that a spirit is Nothing Is not the Bloud of Christ really present in Baptisme to the washing away of sinne Is hee not Really also present to the Faith of every true beleever even out of the Sacrament Doubtlesse he is and none will deny it but he that never felt the vertue and efficacy thereof What should let then but the Flesh of Christ may bee present in the Eucharist Really and yet not after the Corporall manner Nay what if I should yeeld you a corporall presence Would that necessarily inferre a Transubstantiation Nothing lesse For it may be by consubstantiation the flesh being there together with the Bread without turning the Bread into Flesh. Neither may you deny this to be possible vnlesse you will deny the Omnipotency of God and your Transubstantiation withall for therevpon doe you build it Transubstantiation therefore and the Reall presence are not all one Yea but the Fathers vse the tearmes of Conversion Mutation What then Ergo Transubstantiation A pittifull consequence For this is to argue from the Generall to Speciall as if you should say It is a colour therefore it is blacke there being many colours besides blacke Learne then that Change is a generall word and there are divers kindes thereof of Substance by Generation and corruption of Quality by Alteration of Quantity by Augmentation and Diminution of Place by Lation Now he that affirmeth a Change doth not presently affirme Change of Substance for it may be some other either of Quality or Quantity or Quantity or Place The Fathers therefore speaking of a Change in the Sacrament may as well meane a Change of Alteration in the Vse and Uertue of the Elements as of Substance by way of Transubstantiation And so for ought the Fathers say Transubstantiation may still be a brat of the Lateran Councells disputed of perhaps before but neuer beleeved as an Article of Faith till then N. N. I allow no authority after 600. yeares Ergo I acknowledge the next 1000. to be contrary in this and all other controversies betwixt vs. I. D. To speake plainely I allow no Authority at all as Infallible but only that of Christ and his Apostles Those that afterwards succeeded were all of them subiect vnto errour and cannot be the ground of our Faith as I haue elsewhere answerably demonstrated Howbeit those of the first 600 yeares wee reverence more and rather admit then those of the 1000 following because they were freer from errour as liuing neerer the Apostles times and before the first discouery of Antichrist which was about the yeare 607. when Boniface the third purchased of that bloudy tyrant Phocas the title of Vniversall Bishop and with it the supremacy over all Churches Whereof his predecessor Gregory the great seemed to prophecy when writing against Iohn B. of Constantinople for vsurping that title he gathereth from thence that the times of Antichrist are at hand After which discouery although errours every day crept in apace yet wee yeeld you not that all your opinions instantly and at once leapt into the Church For as Rome it selfe was not built in a day so neither was that huge heape of Romanish impieties raised in one age It was a good while after this before Transubstantiation began to appeare Damascen in the East not contenting himselfe with the old language of the Church fell a coyning of new Phrases yet reached not home to Transubstantiation A hundred yeares after Amalarius in the west maintained in plaine tearms that the simple nature of Bread and wine is turned into a reasonable nature to wit of the body and bloud of Christ. And herein was he seconded by Paschasius Radbertus and others Yet could they not carry it so clearly but that they were mightily opposed by the most famous writers in their times whose names you haue in mine Answer But specially by Bertram vnder Carolus Calvus of whom Turrian the Iesuit thus to cite Bertram what is it other then to say the heresie of Calvin is not new And a good time afterwards againe by Berengarius on whose side many disputed both by word and writing and those not of one nation only but English French and Italians as Mathew of Westminster saith But all these Antichrist who was now in his height bare downe and at length anno 1215. vnder Innocent the third in the Lateran Councel was the Idol set vpon its base and adored So lately with so much adoe was your doctrine of Transubstantiation brought in and established N. N. For 900. yeares was no outward face of a Church in England but the Catholike In which it were vncharitable to say that none knewe the meaning of Scriptures and Fathers as well as we or all liued in ignorance till the true light came in with Luther Yet in this last age England hath yeelded many learned men among others an vnkle of yours and Master of Arts who left all his hopes for his conscience and would not bee perswaded to returne to his great possibilities which
Body of Christ. This sheweth they thought the Sanctified Elements to be Christs Body no longer then they might serue for the comfortable instruction of the faithfull by partaking in them Here wee haue a plaine argument against Reservation and that the Fathers thought not the Elements properly to bee Christs body For had they so thought they would never haue burnt them He intimateth indeed that they thought the Elements to be the Body neither doth any deny it For as I haue shewed in my Answer they all vnderstood Christ as if he had said This bread is my Body But Bread in proper sense is not Christs Body nor cannot be as your owne Bellarmine confesseth How then Tropically only as Circumcision is the Covenant and Water in Baptisme Regeneration And so as St Augustine saith the Sacrament of Christs body is after a manner Christs body to wit Sacramentally the outward signe putting on the name of the thing Signified And whereas Dr Covel addeth that Gods Omnipotency maketh it his Body neither doth this import Transubstantiation For as you might haue learned out of my Answere no power is able to make a Sacrament and by earthly Creatures to convay vnto vs heavenly graces saue only that which is Omnipotent and Divine N. N. Sir Edwin Sands With Rome the Greeke Churches concurre in the opinion of Transubstantiation and generally in the Service and whole body of the Masse in offering of sacrifice and prayer for the dead their liturgies be the same that in the old time namely S. Basils S. Chrysostoms S. Gregories translated And another among all these nations Greece Asia Africa Ethiopia Armenia c. all places are full of Masses there be seaven Sacraments c. I. D. Ergo what That the Knight vnderstands the Fathers as you doe Ridiculous For the now Grecians are not the ancient Fathers Or thus therefore you are in the right Absurd for they are in your opinion but Schismaticks and Hereticks Yet saith the Knight they hold Transubstantiation He saith so indeed but by his leaue I much doubt thereof For the Patriarch Ieremy expresly saith that when our Saviour said take eat this is my body and my bloud the flesh of the Lord which he carried about him was not given to the Apostles to eat nor his bloud to drinke nor is now in the divine celebration of those mysteries What then Surely an extraordinary bread which yet is his Body but how saith hee a thousand tongues are not sufficient to vtter As farre as I can conceaue this they hold that the matter of the Bread still remaineth and the Body of Christ still continueth in Heaven but yet the forme or hidden qualities and properties of his body are after an vnspeakable manner derived to the Bread And because as the same Patriarch saith the better things haue the preeminence therefore is it not from thence Bread but Body And even as Iron vnited with fire becometh fire and yet the matter of Iron remaineth and Christs Body vnited with vs changeth vs into it not it into vs our nature still continuing so the secret properties of Christs flesh being imparted to the Bread by putting on this new forme it becometh Flesh and yet still retaineth the matter of Bread This in my shallow vnderstanding is the meaning of the Greeke Church in this point which as you see no way sutes with Transubstantiation But to put the matter out of all doubt the Councell of Florence held some two hundred yeares after that of Lateran plainely declareth that that Church flatly refused to yeeld vnto them therein And if so then neither doe they admit of your Sacrifice which hath no other ground then Transubstantiation Prayer also for the reliefe of soules tormented in Purgatory how can they hold not beleeuing that there is a Purgatory The rest that followeth is little to the purpose and your other author is so misnamed both in your text and margent that I cannot imagine whom you should meane Transeat Ergo. N. N. Midleton witnesseth that the Dead were prayed for in the publike Liturgies of Basil Chrysostome and Epiphanius that the Sacrifice of the Altar and vnbloudy Sacrifice were vsed in the Primitiue Church that to pray make doles and offer Sacrifice at the Altar for the Dead was a tradition of the Apostles and Fathers I. D. Still you wander out of the way For how doth it appeare from hence that Protestants vnderstand the Fathers in point of Transubstantiation as you doe But as you lead so must I follow There are two Liturgies that passe vnder the name of St Basil the one in Greeke the other lately translated out of Syriake by Andreas Masius Betweene which there is such difference that they seeme not both to haue had one Father Of these the Greeke is the prolixer and as the said Masius censureth neither doth Possevin the Iesuite mentioning it disproue thereof hath suffered much change by many alterations and additions and those superstitious too so that whosoeuer be the Author it is not now the same it was at first That which goes vnder the name of St Choysostome either is supposititious or in processe of time much corrupted In it Prayers are made for Pope Nicholas and the Emperour Alexius whereof the one liued almost fiue hundred the other about seaven hundred yeares after Chrysostome And that many things are added your Claudius Espencaeus freely doth confesse So that these Liturgies cannot be of any great authority For as for Epiphanius I cannot yet find that ever he composed any But what saith Midleton of them That the Dead were praied for in them What dead Patriarks Prophets Apostles Evangelists Confessors Bishops Anachorits and the blessed Virgin Mother And for what Not to releeue them but to glorifie God in his Servants and to profit the Church by commemoration of their vertues Thus hee which I trow is not according to your meaning He saith farther the sacrifice of the Altar and vnbloudy sacrifice were vsed in the Primitive Church Suppose so yet hee saith withall that the sacrifice of the Altar hurts vs no more then the Sacrifice of the Table doth you and the Vnbloudy sacrifice hurts you more then vs. For in your Sacrifice Bloud is offered and there is no more reason why you should call it Vnbloudy then Vnfleshy If you say because Bloud is not shed therein I say neither is Flesh broken therein Lastly he saith that Prayers Doles and Sacrifices at the altar for the Dead is a tradition of the Apostles and ancient Fathers But here your author overlasheth for he saith expresly from the Fathers not from the Apostles And addeth yet notwithstanding prayer was then made not after the Popish fashion to ease the dead of the paines and torments of Purgatory but to perswade the liuing that they are not vanished into nothing but liue and haue their being with the Lord which knocks out the braines of Purgatory And by and by This
tradition of the Fathers was no more but Memoriam facite keepe the memory as we may see evidently in Cyprian Nothing of all which I trow maketh any whit for your meaning N. N. Dr Morton citeth out of Bibliander that it was a most common opinion among the Iews that at the comming of the Messias all the legall sacrifices should cease but the sacrifice of Thoda in Bread and Wine should not cease Wherevpon he is forced against Mason and his directors to say The Protestants acknowledge in the Eâ—charist a sacrifice Eucharisticall He might as well haue acknowledged with those of Basil Frankford and Stancarus what this Sacrifice should be For they cite these words of the Rabbins the sacrifice that shall be made of wine shall not only be changed into the Substance of the bloud of the Messias but also into the substance of his Body And in the sacrifice that shall be made of bread notwithstanding it be white as milke the substance shall be turned into the Substance of the body of the Messias Thus R. Cahana who liued long before Christ and so R. Iuda R. Simeon and others whose testimonies saith Dr Morton are so direct for Transubstantiation as no Romish Doctor for a 1000 yeares after Christ is so expresse yea they are more pregnant then the sayings of Transubstantiaâ—ors themselues I. D. I am very sory that I haue not Dr Mortons booke now at hand by me For I am very confident that where your Author found his Obiection there I should also meete with a full solution In the meane season till I haue procured it which I hope will be ere long briefly thus First the Passage cited out of Bibliander maketh against you not vs. For if it be Bread and Wine which is sacrificed then they remaine after Consecration which overthroweth Transubstantiation If they doe not remaine and the Body and Bloud of Christ only be offered then were those Iewes false Prophets and foretold nothing but lies Secondly the Doctor acknowledging an Eucharisticall Sacrifice neither is forced therevnto by any such testimony nor is against Mason or any other Protestant for they all acknowledge the same together with him But I thinke you knew not that Eucharist signifieth Thankesgiuing or else you would never haue thought it strange he should acknowledge a Sacrifice of Thanksgiuing Lastly I am strongly perswaded that when these testimonies of R. Cahana R. Iuda R. Simeon and the rest shall come to the ripping they will proue Hippocentaurs and meere fictions For supposing you are in the right is it likely that such fellowes as these should either know or speake more clearly of the mysteries of our Faith then any of the ancient Prophets inspired of the holy Ghost and sent of purpose to foretell to them Or is it probable that your greatest Rabbins and among them Cardinall Bellarmine searching curiously into every corner to find witnesses of all sorts would yet carelesly omit these if they were so plaine and pregnant for you as you pretend Verily when the Doctor saith that no Doctor for a 1000 yeares after Christ no nor Transubstantiator almost ever spake more plainely it is a meere flout and argues how lightly he esteemes of the authority But of this enough vntill I bee more certainly informed Only thus to alleage Iewes is not to approue your sense of the Fathers N. N. The now Archb. of Canterbury saith and with him Midleton agreeth that Berengarius was called into question for denying Transubstantiation and he yeelded once or twice to recant and abiure the Doctrine he held Ergo hee assureth vs Transubstantiation was the Doctrine of the Church constant and generall hundreds of yeares before the Lateran councell defined it yea farther hee assureth vs that to deny it was Heresy to be recanted I. D. Had not your Author wanted or forehead or braine or both he would never haue made such a shamelesse senselesse inference If he had said Ergo many beleeued Transubstantiation before the Lateran councell hee had kept his tongue within compasse but saying Ergo it was the constant and generall doctrine for hundred of yeares before his mouth overfloweth it is a lye with a latchet For be it knowne vnto you the Church of England held it not as I haue already proued out of the Homily of Abbat Aelfrick Neither did the Waldenses hold it whose number yet was very great and they dispersed through all the countries of Christendome And if you thinke that Berengarius stood single by himselfe in this point you are much deceaued for hee had as many for him as were against him and it was nothing but the tyranny of the B. of Rome that bare him down Howbeit the French Churches still resisted both him and his Synods divers meeting together in Anjow and Turon resolue against him and subscribe vnto Berengarius But to put the matter out of all doubt it is reported of Pope Hildebrand that he appointed a Fast of three daies together with a solemn Procession to entreat of God some signe from heaven whereby he might be assured what he was to determine in this businesse If at that time the head of the Church himselfe staggered and doubted which way to resolue is it credible that the rest of the body could bee so setled therein as generally constantly for hundreds of yeares to maintaine it Apellas the Iew may beleeue it if hee list not I. Breefly Transubstantiation might well be disputed of some while before the Lateran Councell but held for an Article of Faith it was not vntill then as I haue elsewhere shewed out of Tonstal and Scotus N. N. The same Bishop and Dr Field tell vs that the Greeke Church is a true Church Yet their Patriarch Ieremie saith It is the iudgement of the Church that in the holy supper after consecration and benediction the bread passeth and is changed into his Body and the Wine into his Bloud I. D. Yet the same Bishop and Doctor tell you also that a true Church may erre so that Transubstantiation might be an errour though the Grecians held it But the truth is that the Greeke Church never held it as I haue aboue shewed out of the same Ieremie the Councell of Florence which you are bound to beleeue For though the Patriarch say Bread is changed into Body yet hee addeth by and by the flesh of the Lord which he carried about him was not giuen to the Apostles to eat nor his bloud to drinke nor is now in the divine celebration of those mysteries which directly overturneth your Change by Transubstantiation But of this see more aboue And thus much in answer vnto your first reason which before I passe vnto the next I must craue leaue to retort vpon you If you may not yeeld vnto the sense I giue the Fathers because some Protestants allow your sense neither may I yeeld to the sense you giue because many Papists allow mine For there is the same law
this you will remaine during life and then if your life hinder not as you hope it will not you shall enioy everlasting life I. D. What you professe you will not doe that you haue already done Very weake wavering haue you shew'd your selfe in forsaking that religion which is descended vnto vs by succession from Christ and his Apostles and hath alwaies beene taught and maintained in the Catholike Church to embrace a new vpstart superstition vtterly vnknowne to the Primitiue times and growne out of the earth but some two or three nights agoe What Motiues you then had for your revolt I knowe not They that knewe you well speake of some other thing rather then Conscience The best construction I can set vpon it is this you had beene but badly informed in the truth And now least you should incurre the imputation of levitie and inconstancie if you returned to vs againe I feare you haue obstinately resolved to close your eyes and not to see the truth how brightly soever it shine vpon So that the saying which I thinke I haue some where read in Tertullian is verified vpon you Miserable is the case of that man who was perswaded before hee was instructed and afterward refuseth to be instructed because hee is perswaded The sayings of Vincentius Lirinensis and S. Augustin we well allow of but the application of them to your selfe hath more face then forehead in it For as of old Dioscorus the Heretike cryed out in the Councell of Chalcedon I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the doctrine of the Fathers I passe not beyond them in any point and I haue their testimonies not barely but in their very bookes even so you and wish no more modesty nor truth then he I follow vniversality antiquitie and consent in my Beleefe I stand to the Faith that hath beene held in all places in all seasons by all or the most Bishops Priests Doctors in Christianitie I follow a Church begun by entrance of nations authorized by miracles encreased by charitie established by continuance in which is succession from Saint Peters Chaire and knowne of all by the name Catholike But soft good sir how is all this proued For you cannot bee ignorant that we deny al these things affirming the clean contrary that the Romish Synagogue is not the Church S. August speakes of but altogether degenerated from it that the points in difference betwixt vs were neither Vniversall nor Ancient but sprung vp of late ever as they rose vp mightily opposed by the most famous Clerks of their times If you would perswade vs otherwise you may not thinke to prevaile with your strong imaginations but you must convince vs with sound demonstrations wherein God wot the best of you all are as weake as water For as for your selfe I cannot but wonder that knowing no more then you haue picked out of the writings of two or three sneaking Friers you yet talke so coÌ„fidently and presumptuously of Vniversalitie Antiquity and consent in all places and seasons of all Bishops Priests and Doctors as if either your selfe had liued all the while to see it with your eyes or had read all the story of the Church and whatsoever monuments they haue left behind them If you thinke you may be so bold and confident vpon your Author tell vs I pray you why we may not be as bold and confident on our The rather seeing your writers are open maintainers of Equivocation and I knowe not what pious frauds and lies which our men even from their hearts detest abhorre But why should either we or you trust so much vnto deceitfull man The safest course would be with the wise â—ereans to search the Scriptures whether these things be so or not He that shall doe this with an honest heart and out of the loue of truth cannot but finde satisfaction vnlesse hee fayle that hath promised seeke and yee shall finde Verily one testimonie from the mouth of God and his sacred word wil be of more force to settle the Conscience then ten thousand of those Topicall arguments probabilities wherewith your Author gulleth and beguileth you But where you say that the Roman Church is by all both friends and enimies knowne and called by the name Catholike you shew your selfe to be a pleasant and merry man It may bee some of vs at some times may haue called some Recusants Catholikes What then Doe we therefore indeed count you so Nothing lesse for wee call you not so in earnest as if you were so but only in jest and by way of Irony because you affect to bee called so Otherwise then thus wee never either count or call you or your Church Catholike Why Should wee seeing you your selues howsoever in word you retaine it yet in effect seeme to disclaime it calling your selues Roman Catholikes For Catholike is Vniversall Roman Particular that is of the whole world this of one Citty So that Roman Catholike is as much as to say Particular Vniversall that is Not catholike Catholike Whence it followeth evidently that while you restraine your Faith to Roman you vtterly cut it off and your selfe withall from being Catholike Hauing therefore lost the kernell why are you so greedy of the shell Of the name I mean being destitute of the thing Content your selfe with Roman leaue Catholike vnto vs. For wee are indeed the true Catholikes holding all that Faith and only that Faith which the Apostles preached and was generally beleeued throughout the World An ancient friend of mine and a worthy Scholler being demanded in a Stationers shop in Venice while there he followed the Lord Embassadour what was the difference betweene vs here in England and the Catholikes answered None at all for wee count our selues good Catholikes But the party being loth to be put of so pressed him againe to know the difference betwixt vs here and them there and was answered This that wee beleeue the Catholike Faith contained in the Creed but beleeued not the thirteenth Article which the Pope had added to it But it being replied that hee knew none such the Extravagant of Pope Boniface was brought where hee defines it to bee altogether of necessity to salvation to euery humane Creature to bee vnder the Bishop of Rome The beleefe of this thirteenth Article thus patched vnto the rest by your thirteenth Apostle may perhaps make you Bonifacian or Roman but the beleefe of the other twelue makes vs I am sure true and perfect Catholikes Whether you allow vs the name or not it matters nothing as neither whatsoever nicknames you impose vpon vs. For by the grace of God wee are what wee are and it is neither the one nor the other that can make vs other then wee are As neither can you by assuming the name of Catholike or any other Sectaries by calling themselues Illuminates or Vnspotted Brethren make your selues to be that which indeed you are not For as for Reformers although such Corruptions