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B11947 A discours hapned. Betwene an hermite called Nicephorus & a yong louer called Tristan, who for that his Mistresse Petronilla entred into religion would faine become an hermite. All faithfullie dravven out of the historie of Petronilla, composed in French by the Right Reuerend Father in God Iohn Peter Camus Bishop of Belley. And translated into English by P.S.P.; Petronille. English Camus, Jean-Pierre, 1584-1652.; P. S. P., fl. 1630. 1630 (1630) STC 4551; ESTC S116152 62,696 183

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I get ouer and aboue what is necessarie I giue it to the poore Loe how I passe ouer this life caring litle if I be in the state of perfection or no so that I correct my selfe of the imperfections which are vnworthie of my estate litle curious of those titles which the Cenobiticall friars do attribute to themselues to be the Coadiutours of the Bishops Specious titles vvhich the Regulars giue to themselues to be Apostolicall men to leade the Apostolicall life to be men sent by the sea Apostolike to supplie the defects of the ordinarie Pastours to be troupes of succour to be the props of the Church to be the pillars and firme colomnes of her which is herselfe the colome and fundation of truthe knowing that all these qualities are annexed to Priesthoode sith that Prelats ordering Priests do call them their cooperators fellow workers the supporters of their Pastorall Order and many other very honorable names The condition of a Monke is truely very venerable so is that of Conuentuall friars of Religious men let them call them as they will and as they please or in one word that of Regulars or of Friars albeit the Regular Clerkes do apprehend as much to be called this last name as they would to handle a burning cole without tongs But for my part I beleeue that all men of good vnderstanding will alwaies esteeme as much The condition of a Priest is to be estimed as much or more as any other state in the Church and more the condition of a Priest as any of those Notwithstanding to shun the obstinat contention which the Apostle doth so expresly forbid it is better leaue them in the arbitrable possession of the state of perfectiō seing that by their tongues as by the tongue of Hercules Gaulois the Destinies do spinne the reputation of men nothing being well done according the Castilian prouerb but that which proceedeth out of a Monke or friars head THE RESPECT and honour vvhich is due to the Order dignitie of Priesthood declared and proued by the authoritie both of holy Scripture and of the ancient Fathers of the Church YOV haue seene gentle Reader in the precedent Discours how the Regulars to extoll themselues are not content by their rigorous censures to giue a sentence of exclusion against Hermites and Secular Priests as they terme them from the state of perfection in which they place the meanest of themselues in vertue of their three vowes of pouertie obedience and chastitie but also proclaime them to be base and of no consideration And that you may iudge whether that be conformable to the holy Scripture to the Doctrine of the ancient Fathers of the primatiue Church I thought good to produce here a few authorities of the one of the other prouing the dignitie and authoritie of Priests God instructing the children of Israël how to decide all controuersies that should arise amongst them said Thou shalt come to the Priests of the Leuiticall stock and to the iudge that Deut. 17. shall be at that time and thou shalt aske of them vvho shall shew thee the truth The high Priests chiefe iudge of all controuersies of the iudgment And thou shalt do vvhatsoeuer they that are presidentes of the place vvhich our Lord shall choose shall say and teach thee according to his lavv and thou shalt follovv their sentence neither shalt thou decline to the right hand nor to the left hand But he that shall be proude refusing to obey the commandement of the Priest vvhich at that time ministreth to our Lord thy God the decree of the iudge that man shall die What could be said more to shew the dignitie and authoritie of Priests then whosoeuer would not obey them nor stand to their iudgment should die but that is not all The Prophet Malachias speaking of the couenant which God made with the tribe of Leui saith to the same purpose The lipps of the Priest Mala. 2 shall keepe knowledge and the law they shall require of his mouth because he is the Angell of God The Ecclesiasticus teaching à man how to carrie himself first tovvards God after towards the Priests saith Eccles 7. thus In all thy soule feare our Lord sāctifie his Priests And after Honour God withall thy soule honour the Priests Saint Peter vvho vvas a Priest himself speakes thus to Priests You are an elect generation a kingly Priesthood Pet. 2. a holy Nation a people of purchasse Was it not to Priests that our Sauiour himself said Whatsoeuer you Matt. 18. v. 18. shall binde vpon earth shall be bound also in heauen and vvhatsoeuer you shall loose vpon earth shall be loosed also in heauen Many other passages might be produced out of holy Scripture to proue the dignitie of Priests the respect which is due to them but these shall fuffice at this time so you consider them well for you see that to Priests God gaue power to iudge and decide all controuersies and that he gaue sentence of death vpon any that would not obey them You see moreouer that they are called the Angells of God that all men were commanded to honour and respect them that they are called an elect generation a holy nation and that their Priesthood is a Royall dignitie And which is more then all that you see how CHRIST gaue them the power to loose and bind vpon earth and that their act therin is ratified in heauen Now rests to shew what the ancient Fathers of the primitiue Church do say of Priesthood and in what esteeme Priests were in their time in which there was no speech neither of Benedictins which are the Anciētest in our Latin Church and began the yeere 529. nor of Dominicans nor Franciscans which began the yeere 1209. nor yet of Augustins nor Carmelites as they are approued by the Church no nor of Bernardins much lesse of the rest which now flourish in the Church vnder seuerall names but all was ruled and gouerned by Priests Sainct Ignatius Martyr and the third Bishop of Antiochia after S. Peter commaunding all lay persons to be subiect vnto and reuerence Epist ad Smyrn Priests and Diacons saieth thus Diaconos reuereamini vt ex Dei praecepto ministrantes Honour yea the Deacons as ministring by the precept of God Epist. ad Ephes And after Enitimini charissimi subiecti esse Episcopo Presbyteris Diaconis Qui enim his obedit obedit Christo. My dearest doe your best to be subiect to the Bishop and Priests and Deacons for he that obeyeth these obeyeth CHRIST Sainct Policarp disciple to saint Iohn the Apostle saieth Subiectiestote Epist ad Philip. Presbyteris Diaconis sicut Deo CHRISTO Be yea subiect vnto the Priests and Deacons as to God and CHRIST Sainct Clement disciple to saint Peter saith Presbyteris si assiduè in studio Const Apost l. 2. c. 8. docendi verbum Dei
those that are adorned with it a holy and Royall people if they make the state of it inferiour to the state of a simple girle who hath commaund to hold her peace and no right to speake within the Church or to some porter or gardener of the Conuent Those that approche to the Altar to whose words God doth make himself obedient who haue the kees of the kingdome The function and povver of a Priest orderly laid dovvne of heauen who doe bind and loose who are the Magistrats of the Church who sitt vpon the seate of iudgment in the house of Dauid and iudge the twelue tribs of Israël that is to say all the world whose sentences giuen vpon earth are confirmed and ratified in heauen whose hands blessed and consecrated doe handle the most dreadfull mysteries of our Religion and who do that thing which the Angells do adore who haue power ouer the Diuels who dispence the Sacraments and confer the grace of God to all mortall men those Diuine men which S. Francis preferred S. Francis prefered Priests to the very Angels to the Angels because that one only man of them doth make euery day that which all the Angels in heauen cannot doe For to whom of the Angels was it euer said consecrate my body and what thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen those men that are almost to be adored that the Angells do reuerence and call their fellow seruants to God shall they be the vnderlings of those which doe not merit in consideration of their dignitie to loose the lachets of their shooes Ah! Regulars pardon me it is the zeale of the house of God which doth gnaw me it is the desire of his glorie and of his beautie which I see dried vp in his principall members which doth transport me to tell you that you vse very discourteously your elders the Ecclesiasticall Cleargie whom forsooth you call Seculars notwithstanding that by their Clericall habit they haue deposed Secular is no fitt Epitetho for a priest the ignominie of the secular habit that by the reception of their holy Orders they haue renounced to the desires of the world and to all that is profane in it It seemes that you would imitate Iacob and supplant them as if they were all Esaüs but know that if you be Hebrewes so are they if you be Israëlites so are they if you be the seede of Abraham so are they and I will say more for them that they are both more ancient in the Church and of a greater ranke witnesse the processions of a higher dignitie of more eminēt functions I will say so much for it The Church may be vvithout Monks but not vvithout Pastours is no time for a man to hold himself vp when he is shaked and falling downe that their imployments are more vtile and more necessarie then yours for the Church hath beene may be without Mōks but it cannot be without Pastours without Vicars without Priests without Doctours without Preachers for if the salt be moltē with what shall men salt if the candle be quinched how shall men haue light Perchance you will say that you doe the same actiōs which It doth not properly belong to Regulars to administer the Sacraments the Pastours doe but in you it is but in way of accessarie in them principally in you it is pleasure in them paine in you it is of free will in them of necessitie in you by way of recreation and as passingers in them it is of dutie and office in you it is without chardge of soules in them with chardge which make them to be answerable for the soules and so farr answerable that they shall giue soule for soule and bloud for bloud in you it is but in some things in them in all things in thē at all times in you when you please that your commoditie doth permit it in you so that the seruice of your commonaltie doth marche before that of the neighbour in thē there is no exception in you it is at certaine houres in them at all moments you fight as voluntaries they as necessaries you marche but in the wings of the battle they make the body of the armie they carrie the waight of the heate of the day and the cold of the dew of the night in summer and in winter in spring time and in haruest without rule in their dyet without assurance in their sleepe Of seuen Sacraments you administer but two and the one of them which is the Eucharist but at your ease within your houses without carrying it to the sick in the heate of the sunne in frost in snow in raine and in Th life and exercise of poore Pastour exactly described tempest at all houres of the day of the night and all dayes of the yeere through the dirt incōbrāces of the cities and townes through the woods and the meere through the mountaines and the vallees through the stones and the moores of the fields And the other Sacrament which is that of pennance you administer when you are prayed particularly called vpon and as pleaseth your Superiours who haue as great care of the conseruation of their owne subiects as they haue of the sick for whom they are not answerable But the Pastours by obligation ought to keepe still neere the sick to presse them to enter in fauour with God by the Sacrament of recōciliation to preache vnto them in season and out of season to the end to make them think of their saluation which is part of their owne saluation as being bound to giue account to the Prince of Pastours the Bishop of our soules IESVS CHRIST of his sheepe committed to their Vigilance As for Marriage Baptisme Extreme-Vnction they are things which you do not medle with all they are for the gleaners no more then you medle with Confirmatiō and Order which you leaue for the Bishops This you shew your prudēce declare that you haue eatē both butter and honny which make you reiect the least and choose the Isaia 7. v. 15. best that you know how to make vse hansomely of the fanne which separate the corne from the chaffe and pretious things from vile and base things You doe not snuff your lamps but with golden snuffers you doe not take the coales as the Seraphim of the Prophet but with gilt tongs The rodd of Moyses doth not please you because sometimes it is turned to a serpent and deuoure or doth worke dreadfull and rude effects The rodd of Aaron fitts you best because it ingenders nothing but flowres fruict Euen so you know Friars take the profit leaue the paine for the priests how to pull the rose without touching the thornes to gather the hony without feeling the sting of the bee to eate the kernell of the nutt cast away the shell to doe as children doe when they gett bread
are in the state of perfection to be acquired in as much as they haue choosen the Euangelicall Counsells as the shortest way to arriue to perfection or els be 〈◊〉 Vvhy are Regulars said to be in the state of perfection to be acquired and Prelats in the state of perfectiō acquired there state doth oblige thē to searche for that perfection which is proposed vnto them by their Rules which is as it were the creame of the Euangelicall Doctrine in sort that their life should be nothing els but a perpetuall combat a studie exercise that aime at the acquisition of perfection And they say that the Prelats Pastours are in the state of perfection acquired because they are in eminent cōditions whervnto none should be called but men consummated in Vertue sciēce Or els because they are the successours of the Apostles whom wee may not doubt Prelats the successours of the Apostles to haue beene both very perfect as being confirmed in grace and also in the state of perfectiō or otherwise because they are obliged by the greatnesse of their dignitie to be a patterne to the flock which are committed to them by their good exāple or also because they ought in this state to exercise not simple cōmon vertus out heroicall and important vertus wherof the greatest according the iudgment of the Gospell is to giue his owne soule for the saluatiō of his flock This was also the Rule by which our Sauiour measured the charitie of sainct Peter before making No charitie goes beyond that of the Pastorall charg him his Lieutenant in earthe when he demaunded of him three times if he did loue him more then the rest that to his affirmatiue answeares CHRIST replied feede then my sheepe finding no greater proofe of loue then the exercise of this Pastorall charge If Monastical and Conuentuall persons quoth Tristan be not in the state of perfection to be acquired but in respect of the obligation which they haue to make thēselues perfect that the Prelats are not in the state of perfection acquired but because they are obliged to be exemplar me thinks the state of all Christians in generall is such considering that our Sauiour in the Ghospell said vnto vs Be perfect as your Celestiall father is vvho doth make his sunne shine equallie vpon the good and vpon the bad and povvre his raine vvithout distinction vpon the land of the iust and the iniust And what Kings Potētastes who as Constantin the great said are the exterior Bishops Magistrats Goodmen of houses and all those that are in sublimitie and Superioritie are not they bound to giue good example to their inferiours and to be a good odour to all men in IESVS CHRIST After this manner they shall be in the state of the perfection of Prelats who are the Princes within the Church And all Christians that pretend to come to the perfection of their estate shall not they by this desire as well as by vowes be in the state of perfection to be acquired as well as the Regulars I would be neere of your opinion in that quoth the Hermite if I did not feare to offend our Maisters the Doctours who haue in their hands the kees of the doctrine who doe open that which no man durst shut who doe shutt that which no man durst open and who haue the Empire of science But the respect which I beare to their opinions which to me are Oracles to which I submitt my owne iudgment do make me renounce to my owne particular reason and follow the most common opiniō considering that the Apostle doe forbidd vs all contentions But yet when I consider with my selfe that the The Angels vvere at variāce sor the body of Moyses Angels of heauen were at veriance betweene themselues for the possession of the body of Moyses I doe beleeue that men consecrated to God either by the Sacerdotall character or by the Monasticall habit who are called in the Scripture the Angells of the God of armies may a litle contest about the state of perfection euery one being glad without preiudice to humilitie and charitie to magnifie his owne ministerie according the counsell of the diuine Apostle Passe for magnifying their ministerie but to despise others and to pull from those who according God man do both appeere and are in effect more worthy then they that is the thing which I cannot approuue quoth Tristan for had you knowne how the Conuentuall Friars did deschiffer vnto me the Ecclesiasticall Clergie whom they call Seculars how they did depresse this condition represent it vnto me not only to be base but alsoe dangerous and aboue all the rest how they did teare in pieces the condition of you Hermites I beleeue that had you had the patiēce of Iob you would breake out in choler against them For why should they take from the Pastours Priests Pteachers Doctours Confessours Vicars Chanōs Deanes Abbots and Priours called Commendataries from you Hermites the pretention to the state of perfection to be acquired Sir quoth Nicephorus I did wind my selfe expresly about this subiect without entring into it to shun this rock against which you force me now to strick all that I can doe is to say with S. Paul that you constraine me to passe through this danger and exceede a litle the limits of moderation Be angrie quoth the Psalmist or according an other version Stirr and frett a litle but do not sinne Vnder this permission Psal 4. I vvill say to God Lord put a sentinell to my mouth and a doore of circumstances to my lipps to the end that my tongue may not vtter vvords of precipitation or of mallice I know it is vvritten thou shalt not speake ill of the Gods That is to say of eminent persons either in qualitie or sanctitie because that greatnes and pietie doe make men approche to the Diuinitie But albeit Socrates and Plato are my frends and that I doe perfectlie honour the Regular Companies yet the zeale of the truthe hath more power ouer me then all that I will then say this word of libertie not for my self who am the meanest of all men the most contemptible a title which one of the Prophets gaue to our Sauiour but for soe many graue and venerable Ecclesiasticall persons which are in the ranke of the Clergie and compose the true Hierarchie of the Church instituted Vvho are of the Hierarchie by IESVS CHRIST and whose mission vocation is altogether diuine that it is to pull away the fairest rose of the crowne of soe many sacred Priests to take from them the honour to be in the state of perfection at leastwise to be acquired in which the Regulars doe not stick to put their seruants the verie Nuns as well those that sing in the Quire as their maids seruants that looke to the businesse of the Conuent Ah! where shall Priestly vnctiō be placed which make