yea if it seemeth good to the Holy Ghost it should seem good to all his Ministers 2. And I pray you M.S. when it seemeth good to an Independent Minister to declare the Doctrine that denieth Christs Divinity hereticall whether think you seemes it not good to God and to the Holy Ghost also and if it seem good to both why may not the Minister say It seemeth good to God and to me also to declare this Hereticall 3. And if that is bound or loosed in Heaven which the Church bindeth or looseth on Earth wherefore when they bind or loose sinners may they not say It seemeth good to God and to me also to loose this sinner To the 10. I answer It is altogether ridiculous for this one particular expression conteineth not all the expressions that are used in Ecclesiasticall Iudgements the Church useth not evermore Comminations in her Iudgements but against such as are disobedient and that after sundry Admonitions Neither is every Iudgement or Law evermore expresly Penall as ye might have learned both out of your Civill and Canon Law CHAP. VIII Wherein the same Doctrine is further confirmed by Reason THis Subordination of Ecclesiasticall Iudicatories may be likewise proved by the practice of the Old Testament for in the Old Testament there were Synagogicall and Synedriall Iudicatories amongst them there was a Subordination and from the first they appealed to the second neither find we ever that God abrogated it since it was not Ceremoniall as I have shewed 2. It may likewise be proved from the Subordination of Civill Iudicatories in all great Civill States and there is a like reason for them both 3. If it be granted that there are Ecclesiasticall Assemblies greater in Authority one then another as appeareth by all these former Texts either this inequality of Greatnesse or Power is by Co-ordination or by Subordination But it cannot be by Co-ordination for one co-ordinate Power hath no power over the other as that of Hierusalem had over the rest of the Churches in giving them a Pastor Act. 1.2 6. chap. and Lawes and Commands Act. 15. 16. Ergo It must be by Subordination And then the power of the subordinate Church is under that of the superior Church whereunto it is subordinated as in Civill Iudicatories subordinated one to another 4. If there were no Subordination of Ecclesiasticall Iudicatories in matters of Power and Authority or their Authoritative Power then any particular Congregation by an irresistible power in despite of all the Churches of the the World might establish amongst themselves all sort of most damnable Heresies commit all sort of sinne and uncleannesse and so infect all the World with their wickednesse and no Churches or Christians qua tales could hinder them or say to them even as the Pope pretends they cannot say to him Domine quare hoc facis 5. But can our Adversaries risen up of the new shew any such Government as theirs in the Church of God in any time since Christs Incarnation yea from the Creation of the World to this time wherein there was no Subalternation but a meer Independency amongst all Ecclesiasticall Iudicatories We could wish they would shew us the Institution of it in Scripture where any where Christ commanded that all Churches should be altogether Independent and consequently Incorrigible Where at any time he granted them such a Licenciousnesse of power to go irresistably to Hell What an abominable Licenciousnesse is this to plead on this manner for all sort of Independency and of Ecclesiasticall Impunity in doing of all sort of wickednesse and mischief 6. The want of this Subordination taketh away all sort of remedy against the offences of particular Congregations 7. It destroyeth the Unitie of the Militant visible Church both Provinciall Nationall and Universall which cannot appear but in a Provinciall Nationall or Universall Synod or Councell 8. And consequently the visibility of the Church for she is not visible but in her Symbole or Confession of Faith and Canons of Ecclesiasticall Discipline as appeareth by the Symbole of the Apostles 9. To take away such Representative Churches as Synods is to destroy the Externall Church-Communion of Saints or the Communion of Saints amongst divers Churches which cannot so well appear as in Synods where their Reall Communion one with another is best represented for if particular Churches be destroyed by persecution and a little remnant escape as sometimes it falleth out upon the Turks Invasion and the Papists Massacres as wofull experience hath furnished us but too many examples in Germany France England and elsewhere what Externall Union or Communion of Saints can appear amongst you since in such a case ye will neither receive men in age to the Lords Table nor the children of such Martyrs to Baptism and so all the recompence they can have amongst you for all their sufferings for the Name of Christ is That they are like to be utterly excluded from all Church-Communion whatsoever 10. So this is a very poor comfort for Martyrs who having suffered much in their own persons lost their wives children and goods for the good Name of Christ shall no more now be esteemed Christians after all their sufferings whereas they were thought to be of the very best before that time 11. Such a Subordination of Representative Churches in matter of Government is a means very necessary to conserve the Churches for by the Authoritative power thereof Churches are kept in Order Unitie and Union and so preserved as we see in France Holland Scotland and elsewhere ever since the beginning of the World whereas by the contrary Independent way consisting of dis-union they may easily be destroyed as we see in the innumerable number of Sects that in a short space of time have sprouted out of the Independent Sect no lesse opposite one to another then to us 12. If there be no Subordination of Ecclesiasticall Assemblies but every one be Independent and every member of the Church have a vote in all Ecclesiasticall matters and be made acquainted with all that passeth as amongst the Independents hardly can the Counsels and the Resolutions that are taken for mutuall conservation be kept secret but they will every houre be betrayed and so the Church given up to her Enemies which appearingly cannot so easily fall out in the Synodicall way wherein 20. 30. or 40. only and those of the best sort and the wisest men are acquainted with the businesse for in all morall probability it is not credible but 20. 30. or 40. may better keep a businesse secret then 20000. or 30000 whereof the Churches that they represent may be compounded 13. Since Christ ordained Universall Ministers to rule over the whole Militant Church and all the particular Congregations thereof wherefore should there not be some unity of Government amongst them and wherefore may they not all depend on one Councell as well as on one man certainly there is the same reason for both for as the Apostles
the Magistrates authority can be no more intrinsecall unto the Church then the Magistrate himselfe is And if it be said that the Civill Magistrates authority is intrinsecall unto the Church but not the Civill Magistrate I answer That then the Church hath the civill Magistrates authority and not his person so the Church hath the Magistracy and not the Magistrate and so the Church has civill viz. Imperiall Royall or Despoticall authority over the subjects But that cannot be said for it is Treason Christs Kingdom is not of this world and the Church beareth no materiall sword 39. The Intrinsecall way to governe Christs Church is convenient unto Gods wisdome since it is an act of wisdome and divine providence But an Intrinsecall power granted to Heathen and Antichristian Christians and Magistrates to govern Christs Church is not convenient unto his wisdome but repugnant unto it for it is as if he should choose a Wolfe to keepe the Lambs and a Kite to shelter the Chickens which are not meanes convenient unto such ends 40. Such a sort of Government is repugnant unto Gods mercy towards his Church for how is it credible that he who has given Christ his onely Sonne for his Church to redeeme her should give her Antichrists and Pagans to leade her away from Christ to Antichrist yea to the Devill and Hell it selfe from which he hath redeemed her 41. I might here aske what Magistrate has this Intrinsecall power whether the Supreame or the Subalterne If the Supreame then he has such an authority in the Church as in the State viz. Monarchicall Despoticall Imperiall Royall c. Aristocraticall or Democraticall so the Government of the Church is not one but manifold and may change and be diversified as the governments of this world If the Subalterne has it also then it must be derived unto him from the Prince or Soveraigne Nulla enim potestas nisi in Principe aut a Principe there is no power but in the Prince or from the Prince so Ecclesiasticall charges shall be venall or saleable as Subalterne Magistracies in some Kingdomes are where the only way to be preferred unto them is that notable Maxime of old Judas Quantum mihi dabitis CHAP. III. The second Conclusion about the Extrinsecall power of the Civill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters proved by Scripture Conclus II. THe Civill Magistrate hath an extrinsecall both Directive and Executive power about the Church whereby not onely he may rule it by Politicall Lawes as Pagan but also as Christian because he is or should be a Nursing Father of the Church Esay 49.23 who 1. is bound to admit in his Kingdome the true Church and true Religion 2. He has power not to admit it to reject it yea when it is not received or approved and confirmed by his secular and civill authority to reject it and exile it however he do it not as a Nurse of the Church 3. If the Church be corrupt and Church Officers negligent in their charge and will not reforme it he may command yea compell them to do it Or if they will not he may extraordinarily do it himselfe 5. When the Church is Reformed he may command them when they are negligent to be diligent in their charge 6. If they oppresse any man in their Ecclesiasticall judgements and censures against the Lawes of the Kingdome he may desire them yea command them to revise their judgements and in case they reforme them not command them yea compell them by his civill power to give him satisfaction according to the Lawes of the Kingdome if they derogate not from the Law of God 7. He may yea he is bound to provide sufficient maintenance for the Ministers of the Churches and to take a care that their meanes be not delapidated and that they be not Sacrilegiously robbed of them 8. And what here I say of the Church I say also of Universities and Schooles that are the Seminaries of able men for the Church 9. He may grant unto the Church some Liberties Priviledges or Immunities as sundry Princes have done and confirme them by Law as we see in the Civill Law 10. He is bound with his Civill power to maintaine the Order and Discipline of the Church and consequently 11. To hinder all disorder in it And 12. By his Civill Authority to compell all refractory persons to obey the Church And 13. To banish and exile all Sects Schismes and Heresies as we may see by sundry of the Roman Lawes and especially in the first 13. Titles of the first booke of Instinians Codex in the Pandects and else where All this we grant to the Civill Magistrate and if the Quinq Ecclesian Ministers with the rest of that Sect contest it not we need not to prove it only we say that he doth all this by a Civill and Secular Supreame Imperiall Royall Aristocraticall or Democraticall Legislative and coactive Power armed with the sword howsoever extrinsecall to the Church but more Absolute Independent and Potent in suo genere then any Ecclesiasticall Power whatsoever which is Intrinsecall to the Church which is no waies Absolute nor Independent but Dependent no waies Coactive by Externall force but Spirituall meerly Ministeriall howsoever imperative in the name of God that cannot make any Lawes but of things meerely Circumstantiall much lesse abrogate the Lawes concerning the constitution and Government of the Church already made by God in his Word Now that the Magistrate hath an extrinsecall Power over the Church in compelling all refractory persons to submit themselves to her just commands since M. S. seemeth to question it and desireth a proofe of it I am ready to satisfie his desire herein Wherefore I prove it 1. From sundry examples of the Iudges and Kings of the people of God in the old Testament Exod. 32.27 Moses commanded the Levites to kill about three thousand of the Ring-leaders or principalls of those that adored the golden Calfe in the performance of which service the Text saith that they consecrated themselves unto the Lord verse 29. 2. Deut. 22.11 to the end of the Chapter we read how the rest of the Tribes of Israel resolved to warre against Reuben Gad and the halfe Tribe of Manasseh for building of an Altar as they believed in transgression against the Lord which they would not have done had they not conceived it to be just 3. Iudg. 6.31 Ioash ordained thus He that will plead for him i. e. Baal let him be put to death 4. 1 Kings 15.12 Asa removed all the Idols that his fathers had made 13. And also Maachah his mother even her he removed from being Queene because she had made an Idoll in a Grove and Asa destroyed her Idoll and burnt it by the brooke Kedron Here Asa punisheth his owne Mother for Idolatry and destroyeth her Idoll so no doubt may the Civill Magistrate doe with all false Doctrine Worship and Discipline false Doctors Worshippers and Church Governours he may abolish them and
Ecclesiasticall matters even no more then to the meanest of the people Truely they are much beholden to you for your great liberality And if so ride on in despite of King and Parliament to your beloved Conventicles Neither can I finde in these passages Deut. 7.5 and 12.2 3. or Deut. 13. any such thing viz. that it was the generality of the Church or Nation of the Iewes that were invested with it for God never invested the confused multitude in any judiciall or authoritative power CHAP. V. Wherein the same Conclusion is further proved by Reasons NOw after these Testimonies out of Holy Writ I bring these Reasons following grounded upon it and 1. That power which the Civill Magitrate had in the old Testament and is not abrogated in the New may yet continue in the New or the Civill Magistrate may have it in the New But the power to punish Hereticks and Schismaticks is a Power which the Civill Magistrate had in the Old Testament and is not abrogated in the New Testament Ergo the power to punish Hereticks and Schismaticks is a such a Power he may Civill Magistrate may have in the New and so in vertue of Power which the punish them The Major is certaine for there is no other true way to make it not to continue but only the abrogation As for the Minor the first part of it is certaine as appeareth by the Texts of Scripture already alleadged The second Part may easily be proved because only the Ceremoniall Law which contained the shadow of things to come was abrogated in the New Testament The Morall Law was not abrogated so farre forth as it is a Rule of obedience nor as it bindes us thereunto No more is the Politicall Law in quality of Politicall for by the same reason Christ should have over-thrown and abrogated all the Politicall Lawes and policies of the world But that is false for Christs Kingdome was not of this world and he submitteth himselfe unto the Politicall Law of the Jewes yea unto that of the Romans also established amongst the Jewes So did Paul and the Apostles who pleaded their causes before Heathen Magistrates I appeale unto Caesar saith Paul Non auferet mortalia qui regna dat Coelestia 2. Yea if the Jewes had received Christ for their Messias I doubt not but the Politicall Law of Moses in quality of Politicall should have continued amongst them and the Civill Magistrate amongst them should have punished Hereticks Schismaticks Idolaters c. in the New Testament as they did in the Old Neither is there any reason wherefore Christ or his Apostles should have hindred him by his Politicall power to maintaine the Christian Religion in the New Testament as before he did in the Old 3. And it may be further confirmed because the greater the favours be that the Civill Magistrate hath received of God in the New Testament then in the Old so much the greater obligation is laid upon him by his Power to maintaine Gods Cause and Religion 4. And the holier our Covenant is and the further it surpasses the Old so much the greater should the Civill Magistrates care be to maintaine it by his Civill Power 5. If it were not so the State of the Church in regard of the Civill Magistrate should be worse in the New then in the Old Testament for then he maintained it by his Civill Power and by the sword and now he doth it not nor yet hath the power to doe it 6. Is not this plaine Anabaptisme to approve the authority of the Civill Magistrate in the Old Testament and to reject it in the New for as the Anabaptists reject it wholly in the New Testament so doe the Independents in part yea in a great part viz. in that which concerneth the defence of the Church in punishing Hereticks Schismaticks Idolaters c. 7. He who should be a Nurse and a Tutor of the Church in the New Testament should defend her by all his power But Kings and Princes and good Magistrates should be such as we may see in all the Examples heretofore alleadged and in Pharaoh and Esay 1.49.22 where it is promised that Kings shall be Nurses of the Church 8. What if forraigne Princes would invade the Church of God may not godly Princes in such a case justly defend it and represse them by the sword wherefore then may they not doe the like to their owne Subjects who will trouble her peace and by so doing compell them to their duty 9. Doth not the Civill Magistrate this in New England wherefore then may he not doe it in Old England unlesse forsooth the Majestaticall presence of five or six Independent Ministers here be capable to dazle and discountenance him here whereas they receive all their lustre and influence from him there or that as Monkes and Friers yee plead pro immunitate Clericorum or that the ridiculous thunder-bolts of Master Goodwins pretended Judgements of God be capeable to dash it all in pieces here 10. If the Civill Magistrate have not a sufficient Power to punish Idolaters Hereticks and Schismaticks for Religion then all the Roman Lawes in the Code made against Hereticks and those of this Kingdome made against Iesuites Monkes and Priests must be unjust yea the Iudgements given out against them since this Parliament begun are unjust and if so you would doe well to tell them of it If we beleeve these American Christians the Parliaments Lawes are little lesse then tyrannicall 11. That for which all Princes are commended in Scripture that all good Princes should doe and for which they are discommended that should they not doe But for punishing of Idolaters Schismaticks Hereticks c. all Princes that did so in Scripture are commended and for sparing of them are discommended Ergo all good Princes should punish Hereticks c. and not spare them The Major is certaine the Minor is sufficiently proved by the Examples of all the good Kings of Juda and of Iehu 12. They are bound to punish all such as trouble the peace of the State Ergo they are likewise bound to punish such as trouble the peace of the Church for who ever troubleth the peace of the Christian Church troubleth also the peace of the State when the State is Christian 13. If the Civill Magistrate be not bound by his Office to punish Hereticks Schismaticks c. he is bound to tolerate them all and so to tolerate all Independents all Brownists Anabaptists Familists Socinians c. yea some who deny the Immortality of the Soule that hold a generall Resurrection of all Beasts as well as of men yea of all that ever have been since the Creation of the world or shall be to the day of Iudgement peradventure of Lice Flyes VVormes c. and so he shall doe well to Licence the Bookes of such subjects till Master Goodwin alias M. S. resute them for he findes no other remedy in Gods Word but to refute such Bookes If we beleeve this new
must know whether he doth well or ill at least by a particular judgement if in the second it is true that men are bound sometimes to sing a permissive obedience without their understanding because in so doing they doe nothing themselves but permit other men to doe as when there is a Minister called by the Church to preach it may be that some ordinary Mechanick will judge his Sermons to be too sublime more speculative then practicall happily also he will think them not methodicall in such a case the Mechanick hath no power to hinder the Preacher from preaching or preaching so he must obey in permitting and not opposing him in preaching for what is unsavory to his palate is savory to anothers 4. If this Argument hold it shall presse no lesse the Parliament then the Assembly for I put the case that the Assembly judge and that all the Assembly and Independents goe one way and the Parliament another which I trust in God shall never happen I frame the Argument thus If the meanest of men have not a calling to judge betwixt the Parliament and the Assembly then they must sing obedience and submission to the Parliament without their understanding But the Consequent is false Ergo And so your Independents shall neither obey Parliament nor Assembly And the Parliament would doe well to note this 5. I say more that sometimes Subjects are bound to obey their Rulers when they know not distinctly the equity of the Command for put the case a Prince undertake a Warre against his neiâ—â—bour-Prince every Cobler knoweth not the true cause of the Warre or 〈◊〉 it be just or not for he cannot penetrate into his Princes secret Counsells and yet if the Prince lay Assizes upon the people or presse Souldiers they must in all this obey howbeit they know not the secrets of his Counsels yea howbeit they suspect the Warre to be unjust they must obey for it is not expedient that every Independent Cobler be admitted into the Counsell of State or if that be not granted that presently he resist his Prince and raise a Rebellion in the Kingdome 6. I pray this man to tell me whether in New England amongst the Independents every man be not bound to obey what is judged in their Assemblies however he be of a contrary judgement 7. And whether it be Morally possible that every man be of the same judgment in things that are resolved or to be resolved in all Civill or Ecclesiasticall Assemblies And if not what can be the force of this Argument What here he addeth The glory of a Synod lyes not so much in the force of their Conclusions as of their premises is impertinent for the force of the premises and conclusions are not to be opposed one to the other but to be composed one to another for the conclusion followeth necessarily of its premisses Things are sufficiently discussed in the Assembly and their Conclusions evidently enough inferred out of their premisses but this is an incurable sicknesse in these men that they never thinke any Conclusion well inferred unlesse it be for themselves Obj. 22. He telleth us afterwards his judgement that the conclusions of the Assembly should not be swallowed without shewing c. which the Parliament and Assembly will both grant him Obj. 23. M. S. In his Sect. 12. he bringeth in quality of an Argument as it seemeth an Answer unto one of mine taken ab exemplo or a simili which I have answered and afterwards Sect. 16. he hath an Argument the summe whereof is this Obj. 24. Christ hath not divested himselfe nor made a delegation of such a directive power in matters of Religion as A. S. would sequester for the honour of the Presbyterie Ergo he will not acknowledge it A. S. Ansvv 1. I deny the Consequence for to acknowledge such a Ministeriall power as we grant unto the Ministers of the Assembly or our Presbyteries it is not needfull that Christ divest himselfe of it or make a delegation but a donation of it for Christ was never vested with such a Ministeriall and subordinate power for he is Lord and supreame Judge in the Church and therefore could never divest himselfe of it 2. If he meane the supreame power proper to Christ we neither desire him to beleeve nor beleeve we that Christ hath divested or could divest himselfe of it to give it to the Church for he kept to himselfe his owne supreame or Royall Power but gave unto his Ministers subalterne and Ministeriall power which derogateth no waies from his Royall power since this is subordinate unto that 3. However he takes it this Argument is captious and is nothing else but a plain petitio principii and proving the same thing by the same or a Conclusion by a Premisse as uncertaine as it selfe After this petty Argument he maketh his Testament resolving himselfe to dye a Martyr amongst good men whom he hath most highly offended and who professe that they compell no man to professe any truth much lesse untruth against the light of their Conscience how ridiculous a Martyr is this They professe that they may undergoe a voluntary exile for feare of persecution if you sir feare any such thing you may be gone according to the Principles of your owne Divinity And then he telleth us that he will allow any directive power of man so it be not compulsory unto men by any externall violence whether directly or indirectly to subscribe against their judgements and consciences to it A. S. Answ 1. Our Presbyteries attribute not to themselves any directive power that is compulsory unto men by externall violence to subscribe against their judgements 2. But if a few men differ in their judgements from all the rest of the Church or will needs bring in new Religions or novelties against the common Tenets of the Church then indeed they will cast them out of the Church or excommunicate them according to their demerits neither is it equitable that they abide in a Church or enjoy a Church consociation who will not submit unto her Iudgement and Discipline Neither will his Quinque Ecclesian Ministers admit unto or receive any man into their Church who differs in judgement from them or who will not submit unto their judgement But howbeit the Church compell you not to subscribe yet the Civill Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell you to subscribe or to be gone for after sufficient conviction Morally it is and should be supposed that yee know the Truth or should know it or if yee know it not that nothing can have hindred you but your owne pertinaciousnesse which cannot excuse but rather now accuses and aggravates your sinne since one sinne formally and per se cannot excuse another Neither have our Churches ever gone further as may appeare by our Confessions of Faith and Covenants of the Churches of Scotland France the Netherlands Geneva c. M. S. hath some more poore Reasons in his 2. Chap. about the
subjection unto their Order for Compulsion is a principio externo contra inclinationem agentis it proceedeth from an Externall principle against the Naturall inclination of the Agent viz. that is compelled to produce the action and so is exercised only against the Body over which the Church taketh no authority but the Civill Magistrate alone 2. Neither said I to my knowledge any such thing 3. Neither cite you the place 4. Only I remember that in my Observations and Annotations upon the Apologie p. 39. § 4 I said That the combined Eldership having an Authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto viz. in a Spirituall manner since the power is Spirituall Never a word here of compulsion or violence Our Churches neither compell mens bodies nor have they any Prisons or any pecuniary mulcts but if any man will trouble the Church and be disobedient it is the duty of the Christian Civill Magistrate to use his power to hinder such a disorder If we have not a Christian and an Orthodox Magistrate in some places as in France and in some parts of Germany or if the Christian Magistrate will not doe his duty he who will not submit unto our Church-Government is cast out and punished Spiritually by simple Censure Suspension or Excommunication according to the quality of his sin 5. Learne also I pray you M.S. that it is not fallibility but actuall failing or ignorance that may excuse him who is subject unto any Government or Authority from obedience Nor yet all failing in judgement or error but only that which is antecedent to all the acts of our Will which morally we cannot shun and is invincible 6. Neither is it evermore expedient that Subjects know certainly whether their Governours judge or doe right in what they doe for Subjects in some cases must obey in virtue of a probable knowledge or conjecture that their Governours command justly and especially when they are not compelled to be Actors in that which they believe to be unlawfull for them to doe For I put the case that the King and Parliament take a resolution to make War against any Foraigne Prince and presse some men to serve in such a War It is not for every pressed man to call the King and Parliament to an account about the equity of the War neither are they bound to discover to every Souldier all the secrets and particularities of State thereupon M.S. Ob. 28. Why are you not satisfied with that subjection to your Presbyterial Decisions that pleadeth no exemption but only in case of non-satisfaction about the lawfulnesse or truth of them A.S. Ans 1. We are content with it 2. And in case of non-satisfaction our Churches give them sufficient satisfaction 3. But if they will not be satisfied when many thousands are satisfied we maintaine that it is not equitable that when 20000. or 30000. are satisfied two or three under pretext of non-satisfaction or twenty or thirty pertinacious fellowes should have liberty to trouble all the Churches of God in the World 4. We say moreover that the Church in disputing and conferring with them and afterward in judging that she hath given them sufficient satisfaction hath given them sufficient satisfaction morally and that wise men should judge it sufficient in foro Externo and thereupon that they are to be condemned by the Church in foro Externo for there is no other way to proceed to sentence either in foro Civili or Ecclesiastico 5. If this will not satisfie them yet if they will be quiet and not trouble the Church of God with their Conventicles we can in Christian charity tolerate them in their weaknesse yea in their malice if there be any till God impart unto them more grace But this serveth nothing for Independents who are come over the Sea to beg a quarrell of us and to erect Churches in despite of the Civill Magistrate against all Lawes yea against their own Tenets if they write as they believe for they pretend that Churches cannot be erected without the Civill Magistrates consent 6. If all this content them not and their Conscience will not permit them to doe otherwise the Ports are free for them they may be gone and live in all liberty of Conscience in New England and trouble no more the Country here then the Country shall trouble them there 7. Or if this will not content them wherefore will they have more liberty here then they will grant us in New-England M.S. Ob. 29. If Parties may have cause to be offended with the Church then have they power to judge of their actions as well as they of theirs But the first is true Ergo the second also A.S. I distinguish the Consequent of the Proposition They may judge by a publick Judgement It is false for every particular or private man hath not a publike power to judge nor consequently a Publike judgement they may judge by a private power which properly is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 potestas authoritas or Authoritative power or judgement but a judgement of Discretion so it is true but such a Judgement is not sufficient to exempt him from obedience I meane not an active but a passive or rather a permissive obedience for howsoever his erronious judgement may excuse and dispence him from an act wherein he is Actor against his Conscience yet can it not excuse him from suffering the judgement of the Church for if he will not doe what they will according to Gods Word they may doe and he must suffer and permit them to doe what he willeth not and what they will according to Gods Word whereof he hath no Publike power to judge he must no way oppose activè the publike Judgement and Authority of the Church since he hath no publike power he must not set up a new Church but deal with the Church according to his vocation and if he cannot prevail in conferring with the Church he may appeal from a Parish Presbytery to a Classe if there he be likewise oppressed he may appeal to a Provinciall Synod if there again he be wronged by their Judgement he may appeal unto a Nationall Synod if there he be oppressed which probably will not ordinarily fall out in all these Judicatories rather then in first and last instance in an Independent Church compounded peradventure of seven or eight idle Fellows or pretend to be offended he must sit down patiently And if he have any scruple of Conscience he may consult forraign Divines and if those satisfie him not in this singularity of his opinion I then propound my question Whether it be more equitable That all the Churches of the World submit to this particular mans opinion or he to theirs Object But what if they erre all and he be right Answ When God hath not given you any ordinary remedy you must have patience there must be Offences yea Heresies But woe unto him that is the Cause
viz. One individuall Body actually existent cannot at one time be in divers totall places to be true For the Scripture poseth it not formally but presupposeth it to be true Now I pray you M.S. shew me wherein any Presbyterians contradict these Assertions that I have laid down you name none and therefore I am not bound to answer Only you say I contradict my selfe But wherein Because saith M.S. I say p. 27. § 3. 1. Subordination between superiour and inferrour Ecclesiasticall Iudicatories is partim juris Divini partim Natura lis aut mixti 2. This Subordination c. needs not any patterne expresly and formally from Christ It sufficeth that it have one from Nature p. 36. § 2. 3. And yet we can shew a patent for it not only from the Law of Nature which should suffice but also from the Law of Grace in the Old and New Testaments 4. It is only from God that can give power to any man in his Church pag. 48. 5. Only Gods Word is the rule or measure in matter of Ecclesiasticall or Presbyteriall Government p. 61. 6. Combined Presbyteries judge of Points of Doctrine and Discipline already revealed in the holy Scripture and give us new Ecclesiasticall Lawes of things indifferent p. 34. Answ In my second Proposition he putteth Patterne for Patent 2. Here in all these Propositions there is no contradiction neither sheweth M.S. wherein it consisteth here It may be partim juris Divini and partim Humani 1. In respect of its divers parts whereof some may be revealed in Scripture and some proved by Naturall reason 2. In respect of the same parts which may be both known by Nature and by Divine revelation or some supervenient Divine Ordinance So Divines hold that we know God to be both by Naturall Knowledge and Supernaturall Revelation 3. In so far forth as that which is juris Naturalis is also juris Divini when jus Divinum supposeth jus Naturale for in such a case jus Naturale becommeth Divinum not Thetically but Hypothetically not by any formall Divine Position but by some Divine reall Supposition as I shew it cleerly in that passage of my Book that he citeth p. 36. These three last Propositions contradict not the rest For in the 4. Proposition p. 48. of my Book I speak not of the ground of Ecclesiasticall Discipline nor of it all only I say that it is not in Church-Ministers power to transferre the Ecclesiasticall power unto the Civill Magistrate Which contradicteth not the first three In the 5. Only Gods Word c. But 1. Gods Word there must not be taken strictly for that which is Gods Word formally in terminis Theticè but in a more large signification 1. For Gods Word formally or by consequence 2. In terminis aut in sensu 3. Theticè aut Hypotheticè by some Position or Supposition 3. If ye take Gods Word in the last sense then Discipline or Government must be taken for Discipline in its essentiall and principall integrant parts and not in all its accidentall and circumstantiall parts Neither is it needfull that we have any particular rules from Scripture for every circumstance of Doctrine or Discipline As for example That Sermons should be on such or such Week-dayes so long viz. an houre or two houres long in the morning or afternoon That Ecclesiasticall Senates should sit once a day once a week or once a moneth In the 6. Proposition 1. Discipline there must be taken for Discipline quoad Essentialia Substantialia Necessaria and not quoad Accidentalia Circumstantialia Contigentia Indifferentia as appeareth by my words in the last part thereof New Ecclesiasticall Lawes in things indifferent c. 2. Holy Scripture must be taken in a large signification as I have already declared for so only is it taken by our Doctors when we prove against the Papists that it is the only Rule of Faith In the 2. Position when I say Subordination needeth not c. the word needeth must not be taken for necessarium absolutè or quoad esse but secundum quid ad bene esse not to its being but to its well-being for howbeit Christ had not given us any patent of Subordination in Ecclesiasticall Judicatories in the Gospel yet the Law of Nature and the Scripture of the Old Testament had been sufficient to direct us therein and had bound the Church of the New Testament to the Presbyterian Government And this M. S. acknowledgeth himselfe howbeit not without some Comedian jeeres more ordinary with him then any apparent Reason and confesseth that the words following in the 3. Proposition declare it But put the case that Presbyterians differed as he saith whether it be juris Divini Naturalis aut Humani as they differ not for any thing I know or have read Yet they agree in this That it is Juris Confesse this and ye may live in a Fraternall communion with us for the Difference viz. If one say it is juris Divini another Naturalis another Ecclesiastici will not breed a Schisme for it is not a Dispute de re sed de modo rei to know whether it proceedeth from God as Author of the Law of Nature or of Grace by a Naturall or a Positive Law Much lesse materiall is it to know whether it be in Scripture explicitè or implicitè formaliter aut per consequentiam in terminis aut in sensu et consequenter Theticè or Hypotheticè CHAP. III. Containing the Arguments whereby we prove the Opinion of the Orthodoxe Churches against the Independents borrowed from the Old Testament THe Arguments that might be brought for the Orthodox Churches against all Sectaries are many whereof I will touch a few some from Scriptures of the Old and New Testament and others from reason founded on Scripture but to proceed more cleerly I intend to prove 1. That in Scripture there is more then a Congregationall Independent Church 2. a Subordination of Churches and that in Authority Whether in Scripture or in Reason we find more then a Congregationall Church We affirme and prove it thus 1. Such a Church and Church-government as was amongst the people of God in the Old Testament and is not abrogated in the New may be admitted amongst his people in the New But a Church and Church Government more then Congregationall and Independent was amongst the people of God in the Old Testament and is not abrogated in the New Testament Ergo A Church and Church Government more then Congregationall and Independent may be admitted amongst his people in the New Testament As for the first Proposition I beleeve our Adversaries will not deny it for if it was in the Old Testament it was either by Gods Ordinance or by his Approbation If God ordained it how can they abolish it If he approved it how can they reprove it And for the Assumption I prove it 1. For they had a Nationall Church God dealt not so vvith every Nation Psal 147.19 20.
Deut. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10.13 14 20.23.33 34.37 Deut. 7.6 7 8 9 10. Deut. 10.12.15.21 Deut. 26.17 18 19. Deut. 28.9 10. Deut. 29.13 14 15. And Deut. 32. vers 8 9. c. When the most High divided to the Nations their Inheritance when he seperated the sons of Adam Iacob was the Lot of his Inheritance c. Amos 3.2 You onely have I known of all the Families of the Earth Deut. 39.29 Happy art thou O Israel who is like unto thee O People saved by the Lord the shield of thy help and who is the sword of thy Encellency 2. Because Independents define a Congregationall Church a number of men Covenanted together to participate of Gods Ordinances viz. the hearing of the Word the receiving of the Sacraments c. in some one place every Sabbath day But all the Church of the Jewes could not meet in one place in such a fashion as every man will easily grant Ergo 3. Because the great Sanedrim at Jerusalem judged of all Ecclesiasticall Causes throughout all the Kingdome 4. Because the People of God besides their Assemblyes in the Temple which was an holy place common to all their Nationall Church had their particular Conventions in particular Synagogues And however men may doubt of these Synagogues whether they were exinstituto divino or not and of the time when first they began yet can it not be denied but if they were not divinae institutionis they were at least divinae approbationis 1. For they are no where condemned in Scripture 2. But Christ and his Apostles approved them in that they went ordinarily to them disputed and expounded Scripture in them 3. And submitted themselves unto the order and Discipline established therein Answ But the Independents will say that the Nationall Church is abrogated in the New Testament Iust 1. Then it is their part to point us to the place in the New Testament where it is abrogated 2. It cannot be abrogated in the New Testament for those Ordinances only of the Old Testament are abrogated in the New that belonged unto the Ceremoniall Law But to have a Church or a Church Government more then Congregationall per se or considered in it selfe belong not to the Ceremoniall Law Ergo The Major is certaine I prove the Minor 1. For it might have been even in the State of Integrity without the Ceremoniall Law 2. And so indeed it was after the Fall before ever Moses his Ceremoniall Law was made 3. And that is not meerely Ceremoniall whereof we may evidently give naturall reason or that which is evidently grounded in naturall reason or at least in so far as evidently grounded in naturall reason since it is meerely Positive But supposing that there is a Church of God to have a Church or a Church Government more then Congregationall and Independent is evidently grounded in naturall reason or a thing where evidently we may give Naturall reason c. as wee shall see hereafter Ergo 3. Only those things of the Old Testament are abrogated by the New which were shadows of things to come viz. of Christ Reall or Mistycall But such a Church i. e. more then a Congregationall Independent Church was not a shadow of things to come in Christ c. Ergo The Major is certaine for the things commanded or approved in the Old Testament belonged either to the Morall or to the Ceremoniall or to the Judiciall Law As for the things of the first sort they are juris naturalis and consequently perpetuall which are not abrogated and of themselves were not shadows of things to come As for those of the Judiciall Law of themselves they are not shadows but belong unto Civill Government which Christ abrogated not since his Kingdom was not of this world and if the Jews had submitted themselves to Christ and had been freed from externall oppression it is probable that they should have enjoyed their own Government according to the Judiciall Law so far forth as Judiciall neither was it his aym to overthrow any worldly States Policies or Politicall Laws Christs Kingdom was and is compatible with all the Kingdoms and States of the world if they will not destroy it and he will let them reign over mens bodies and purses if they can let him reign over their Souls These that were commanded in the Ceremoniall Law were indeed shadows but such was not a Church more then Congregationall To all these Reasons some have answered That they would have it proved by Scriptures of the New Testament just 1. But wherefore prove they their opinion by the Old Testament if they will not permit us the same liberty 2. Our former Reasons have sufficiently proved That proofs taken from the Old Testament should hold in all that which is not abrogated in the New 3. If in this Subject they reject the Scriptures of the Old Testament as the Jews in all things that of the New there will be two Errors Diametrically opposite the one to the other theirs and the Jews But to give them more contentment we will prove it likewise by Texts of the New Testament and first from that of the Acts Chapters 1 2 4 and 5. 2. A Church compounded of 8120. is more then a Parishionall or Congregationall Independent Church But the Church of Jerusalem Acts 1.15 Acts 2.41 Acts 4.4 was a Church compounded of 8120. yea of more as appeareth by Acts 5.14 26. Ergo The Church of Jerusalem was more sure then a Parishionall or Congregationall Independent Church The Major Proposition is certain for the Independents define their Church which Christ in his Gospel hath instituted and to which he hath committed the Keyes of his Kingdom the Power of binding and loosing the Tables and Seales of the Covenant the Officers and Censures of his Church the Administration of his publike Worship and Ordinances Caetus a company of Beleevers meeting in one place every Lords day for the Administration of the Holy Ordinances of God to publike Edification The Way of the Church of Christ in New England The due Right of Presbyteries Chap. 1. Prop. 1. From hence I argue thus The Church whereunto cannot be applyed this Definition because of its multitude is more then an Independent Congregationall Church But a Church compounded of 8120 is a Church whereunto cannot be applyed this Definition c. Ergo. The Major is certain The Minor I prove it for 8120. could not meet together every Lords day in one House c. For in those times Christians had not yet any Temples but gathered together in particular Houses which could not receive them all 1. Because they were not ordinarily spacious as great and rich mens Houses for as the Apostle sayeth There are not many wise men after the flesh nor many mighty nor many noble called but the foolish weak base and despised things of the world 1 Cor. 1.26 27 28. 2. Howbeit they had been spacious as rich mens houses yet could they not have received such
a number 3. Howbeit they could have received such a number yet could not such a number have all heard a Minister Preaching yea though he had the voice of a Stentor such as were not all the Apostles for St. Paul had his voice very weak His Letters say they i. e. his Adversaries are weighty and powerfull but his bodily presence is weak and his speech contemptible 2 Cor. 10.10 5. Howbeit they could have all met together to hear the Word yet could they not meet together to participate of the Lords Holy Table for in those times the Custome was to Communicate at Table sitting according to the Custome of other Orientall people in circle every one having his hand upon his fellows breast and their feet without which 8120. could not so conveniently do in one room 6. Put the case they could have all heard the Word and Communicated at the Lords Table together yet could they not so conveniently have voted in Ecclesiasticall Senates or Iudicatories as they pretend every Member of the Church hath power to do and as they do actually in case of Appeal from the Presbytery unto the people For I put the case that those 8120. should have gathered together to judge in some matter of Doctrine or Censure and that every one of the people should have employed one fourth part of an hour in delivering of his judgement whereas I le warrant you some of them might employ a whole day and at night say little to purpose this voting would take up 20. or 30. hours Put the case again they should sit four hours every day which hardly every Trades-man can spare it should amount to 507. dayes which is almost two yeers omitting the Lords dayes so in gathering their votes once onely there would be spent nigh upon two yeers But what if there should fall in many put the case ten or twelve incidents and that some of this Reverend Synod would protract the businesse as some do here to spin out time as we understand When should these businesses be decided Again What if some of the people peradventure some considerable number should be absent for appearingly they could not ever all be present could any judgement given in their absence binde them to condescend unto it If it could it should be but a very blinde obedience if not there must of necessity be matter of Schisme which per se would ordinarily fall out in such a Constitution of an Independent Church Many things will happily here be replied about divers compendious wayes of gathering of suffrages as in divers Senates as amongst the Romans Athenians the Parliaments in France in Venice c. but to no purpose for this extravagant fashion of voting of so great multitudes wherein every one pretends a liberty or licentiousnesse rather in prophecying whereunto such wayes of gathering of suffrages can no wayes be applyed Some will answer 1. That this Church Acts 1. was an extraordinary Church compounded of Apostles who were extraordinary Ministers Inst The Text sayeth not that it was extraordinary or compounded of Apostles alone 2. The Apostles were onely twelve but this Church was of ten times twelve i. e. of one hundred and twenty Acts 1.15 and eight thousand more 3. The twelve Apostles could not make it extraordinary in number in such a manner as that they could not meet together in one place for they were but twelve who might have been received in as small rooms as other men Some will answer 2. It may be said That the Church Acts 1. was but of one hundred and twenty persons Inst I reply But that of one hundred and twenty persons and that of 8120. persons was all one formally and they differed onely in their matter as an Infant and a Man of fourty yeers 2. That it sufficeth that a Church according to Gods Ordinance may be compounded of so many persons as are incompatible with the Constitution of an Independent Church 3. And howbeit it be not Acts 1. yet Scripture Acts 2. and 4. is no lesse Canonicall then Acts 1.4 and yet that passage Acts 1. doth the businesse for that Church provided a Minister for all the Churches of the World which is more then any Independent or Congregationall Church can do And whosoever calls this Assembly or the Acts thereof extraordinary yet may not the Independents do so since that from this place some of them as Robinson Insti p. 168 169. proves an ordinary power in the Church to ordain and depose Her Officers the which proof should be very ridiculous and impertinent if from an extraordinary Church or an extraordinary Act they should infer an ordinary Church or an ordinary Act of an ordinary Church It should be all one as if they should prove That Independents have power to raise the dead because the Apostles had such a power 3. Arg. Act. 5. After that visible judgement of God that befell Ananias and Saphira vers 5 10. Beleevers were the more added unto the Lord multitudes both men and women vers 14. The number of the Disciples were much more multiplied cap. 6. v. 1. in Hierusalem greatly and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the Faith ver 7. who could not all meet together Arg. 4. Act. 6. v. 1. When the number of the Disciples was multiplied there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrewes because their widowes were neglected in the dayly ministration whereupon there were appointed 7 Deacons for all the Churches of Iudaea and sundry others for the Church was compounded of people of divers Countries Act. 2.9 10 11. This Argument proveth very probably that at Hierusalem there was more then an Independent Church since it ordained Church-Officers for sundry Congregations or at least for a Church which could not meet in one place CHAP. IV. The same Doctrine proved from Act. 13.14.15 and 16 chap. of the Church of Hierusalem and Antioch Arg. 5. SO Act. 15. in that dispute of S. Paul and Barnabas with some Pharises converted to the Faith about Circumcision and the Observation of the Ceremoniall Law at Antioch it was resolved that the question should be determined by the Church that was at Hierusalem as it was From whence I argue thus That Church to whose judgement other Churches submitted themselves and which gave out Decrees or Sentences to be obeyed by other Churches was more then an Independent Congregationall Church But the Church that was gathered at Hierusalem was a Church to whose judgement other Churches submitted themselves or to which they were bound to submit and which gave out Decrees or Sentences to be obeyed by other Churches Ergo The Church that was gathered at Hierusalem was more then a Congregationall Independent Church The Major is certaine for no simple Congregationall Church can give out Decrees and Sentences to be obeyed by other Churches nor will other Independent Congregationall Churches submit thereunto The Minor is certaine 1. For The Church of Antioch determined that Paul and Barnabas
and certaine others of them should goe up to Hierusalem unto the Apostles and Elders about that question Act. 15.2 2. Because the judgment of the Church of Hierusalem is called a Sentence v. 19. A burden To lay no greater burden upon you v. 28. Item Decrees and Ordinances They delivered them the Decrees to keep that were ordained for the Apostles and Elders which were at Hierusalem cap. 16. v 4. 3. Because not only the Church or Churches in Antioch but also all those of Syria and Cilicia were bound to obey them since they were delivered them by the Apostles Evangelists and Disciples to keep cap. 16.4 4. Because the stile of the Epistle and of the Iudgement argueth authority over the Churches As that Act. 15.24 To whom we gave no such commandement Ergo They had power to command them to preach And the Pharises appearingly pretended to have had some such commandement from that Church at Hierusalem as some inferre from this Text. Item It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay upon you no greater burden then these necessary things Act. 15.25 5. Because they commanded the Churches some things indifferent in themselves as to abstaine from meats offered to Idols and from blood and from things strangled v. 29. What may be answered to this Reason we shall God willing see hereafter Arg. 6. The Church of Antioch is one and yet it is probable that there were many Congregationall Churches there for many of the Jewes and Religious Proselytes at Antioch followed Paul and Barnabas Act. 13. v. 43. And the next Sabbath day came almost the whole City together to heare the Word of God v. 44. And the Word of the Lord was published throughout all the Region v. 49. so that there were many that professed Christ So there were certaine Prophets and Teachers as Barnabas Simeon Lucius Manahem Act. 13. v. 1. and sundry others which had come down from Iudea Act. 15. v. 1. Now it is not credible that where there were so many Beleevers and so many Preachers but there must have been many Congregations and yet they are all called one Church Act. 14. v. 27. CHAP. V. The same Doctrine proved by the Church of Corinth 1 Cor. 1. 2 Cor. 1. Act. 18. and of Ephesus Act. 19. Arg. 7. SO 1 Cor. 1.2 2 Cor. 1.1 the Church of Corinth is called a Church There Paul reasoned in the Synagogue every Sabbath day and perswaded the Jewes and the Greeks Act. 18.4 And Crispus the chiefe Ruler of the Synagogue beleeved on the Lord with all his house and many of the Corinthians hearing beleeved and were baptized v. 8. And the Lord spake by vision to Paul saying I have much people in this City v. 10. Paul continued there a yeere and six moneths v. 11. God promised him that no man should set on him to hurt him v. 10. The Iewes that had made an insurrection against him v. 12. were drawn from the Iudgement seat by Gallio the Pro-Consul or Deputy of Achaia v. 18. Sosthenes the chiefe Ruler of the Synagogue beaten away by the Greeks v. 17. This Gallio was not Pauls or the Christians enemy as appeareth by all his proceedings v. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18. where it is to be observed that Corinth was the Metropolis of Achaia so potent and opulent that it might have disputed the Empire of the World with any other which the Romans reckoned only three in the World fit to do viz. Carthage Corinth and Capua Now since the City was so great so rich so populous and S. Paul by so speciall a manner of Divine providence and promise assisted there so as that Crispus the chiefe Ruler of the Synagogue was converted Gallio the Proconsul became Pauls friend and peradventure not far from the Kingdome of Heaven S. Pauls credit so great that the Iewes were drawn from the Tribunall seat and Sosthenes beaten away so many Corinthians converted and that he abode there so long What a number in all probability must have been converted Out of all doubt more then could conveniently meet together in one house to participate of all Christs Ordinances And it was not Pauls custome to stay long in any place where the Gospel was much contradicted or prospered not as we may collect from the 6. verse of this chapter and from chap. 19. v. 9. Arg. 8. We may prove as much from the 19. chapter concerning the City of Ephesus where I pray the Reader to consider how Ephesus was a very potent rich and populous City of Asia minor of great Trading in regard of its situation betwixt the South and West it being the way to saile from Syria and Egypt into Greece and Macedonia For all these reasons it was very famous as also for the Temple of Diana its Idolatry and many curious Arts there professed as Naturall and Diabolicall Magick the profession whereof some Independents as it is related by M. S. use it should seeme now and then to consult about men of Letters and their Books in these calamitous times of Reformation About that time that S. Paul taught there there was one Apollonius Thyanaeus who as it is related of him erected a Schoole of Magick there who by the voice of Birds knew their very imaginations and desires c. This man was Christs and S. Pauls enemy as it is related of him We have also an Adage in Erasmus Ephesiae literae which were some Magick characters and words which made such as caried them victorious in all they undertook See more about them in that Adage in the Title Imposturae Without doubt Paul converted here more then could meet in one Congregation and yet it is called a Church 1. At his first entry by the imposition of his hands he gave the Holy Ghost unto 12 Disciples or rather it was given them by Jesus Christ upon the imposition of his hands so that they spake with Tongues and prophesied v. 6. and so there was now a good number of good Instruments 2. He disputed boldly in the Synagogue for the space of three moneths perswading the things concerning the Kingdome of God v. 8. which he could not have done unlesse he had had many good friends there 3. Afterwards daily in the Schoole of one Tyrannus for the space of two yeeres v. 9.10 which without doubt he had not continued to doe so long if the Gospel had not had great fruits there for so soon as some spake evill of it in the Synagogue the Text sayes He separated his Disciples from it I know that there is some dispute about these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Schola Tyranni cujusdam v. 9. some thinking that Tyrannus is a proper name others that it is a common name signifying some great-man of great credit and authority as some great Lord perchance and Schola may signifie a Schoole is a Hall or place of recreation such as Noblemen use to have But however it be taken this Text proveth plainly that
further confirmed by sundry other Texts of Scripture and 9. by Act. 20.7 8 9. There was such a throng at St. Pauls Sermon which he made in an upper Chamber in the night upon occasion of his departure from Troas that Eutychus and doubtlesse also some others were forced to sit in the windows note that this was in the night what a throng might there have been had it been on the Day time out of all doubt the Chamber would not have held them all but certainly they could not meet every Lords-day in any one Roome such as were their places of meeting in those times and consequently there must have been there more then one of the Independent Congregationall Churches 10. We have also cleer Texts of Scripture to prove that the Church is taken for a greater then for any Independent Congregation as Act. 8.1 And at that time there was a great persecution against the Church that was at Hierusalem This Persecution was not against one onely Independent Congregationall Church but against the whole Churches of Iudea 11. So in the same Chap. vers 3. Saul made havocke of the Church And chap. 9.1 breathing out threatnings and slaughter against the Disciples of the Lord now of this Church some members were in Damascus v. 2. so he sayes of himselfe I persecuted the Church 1. Cor. 15.9 Phil. 3.6 from whence I argue thus The Church that Saul persecuted was greater then a particular Congregation or an Independent Church But the Church here meant is that which Saul persecuted Ergo The Church here meant is greater then a particular Congregation The Minor is certain the Major I prove it for he persecuted not one onely particular Congregation but that wherever there were Disciples of the Lord chap. 9.1 in Hierusalem chap. 8. vers 1.3 and in Damascus chap. 9. v. 1.2 12. And Act 12.1 Herod the King stretched out his hand to vex certaine of the Church Here the word Church must signifie more then a particular Congregation for Herod did it to pleasure the Iewes which he could not have done in vexing the members of one particular Church alone 2. Because here must be meant the Church whereof Peter was a Member v. 3. which was not one particular Church alone but that of all Judea since Peter and John had a particular Vocation Mission or Commission to teach there as Paul to the Gentiles Gal. 2.7 or rather of the whole Militant Church of their time since they were Apostles or Vniversall Ministers of the Gospel 3. Because if the Church here signifie a particular Church whereof Peter and Iames were Members then that Church might have deposed them of their Ministery For the Independents grant this Authority to their Churches over their Pastors And if it be said that they have it over particular but not over universall Pastors as the Apostles Ergo. If they acknowledge them to be universall Pastors they must have universall Flocks or Churches so there was an universall Militant Church upon Earth whereof they were Pastors in their time which is more then a particular Congregation 4. Put the case they had been but Ministers of particular Churches or Congregations yet must the word Church there signifie a Church whereof they were both Members for such a Church is meant here v. 7.2 3. But such a Church must be more then a particular one for it must containe both their Churches and Persons since they are called some of the Church i. e. of one Church 13. So vers 5. But Prayer was made without ceasing of the Church unto God for him i. e. for Peter who was in Prison And out of all doubt this was not one onely Independent Church but all the Churches that knew of Peters imprisonment and depended upon him as upon their Pastor 14. Give no offence neither to the Jewes nor to the Gentiles nor to the Church of God 1 Cor. 10.32 which cannot be a simple Independent Church but all the Churches we converse with 1. for Charity bindeth us to give no offence to all or any of them 2. Because this Church is called the Church of God which cannot be restrained to one particular Church if they be all the Church of God 3. Because it is opposed to the Iewes and the Gentiles 15. Because the Church wherein God did place Apostles and Evangelists 1. Cor. 12.28 was not an Independent Congregation but more for they were universall Ministers of the Militant Church of their time now if there be an universall Militant Church through all the world how much rather may we admit a Provinciall or Nationall Church 16. I had rather speak five words saith St. Paul with my understanding in the Church then c. 1. Cor. 14.19 This Church wherein the Apostle desires to speake is more then an Independent Congregation for he was not tyed to any particular Congregation 17. The Apostle willeth women to keepe silence in the Churches 1. Cor. 14.38 and these Churches are called the Church It is a shame for a Woman to speake in the Church vers 35. which cannot be a particular Congregation for he willeth them not to speake in any Church We may bring many other Passages of Scripture and Reasons but because they serve both for this and the next Conclusion therefore to decline repetitions we remit them unto that Conclusion CHAP. VII The Second Conclusion concerning the Subordination of Authority in the Church SEcondly I say Conclus that betwixt the Churches of God there should be some Subordination in authority i. e. such as wherein the judgements of inferior Churches and their proceedings may be subject unto the judgement of the Superiour Church whereunto they are Subordinate And this may be proved sufficiently from all the Testimonies of Scripture aleadged for the former Conclusion For if there be a Church more then a particular Congregationall viz. Provinciall or Nationall out of all doubt the particular Congregations must be subject to them 1. because a part is subject unto the whole as the hand unto the whole body nam pars magis sui totius quam sui item because the part is for the whole as a medium for its end now the Mediums must be subject unto their Ends and not the Ends unto their Mediums and Media commensurantur finibus non fines Mediis neither shape we the horse back for the saddle but the saddle for the horse his back so the government of particular Churches must not be shaped or framed according to their particular exigencies and conveniencies alone but according to that of the whole Provinciall Nationall and Universall Militant Church here upon Earth in such a manner that it hinder it not 2. Particularly it may be proved from the Custome of the Old Testament which is not abrogated in the New for therein the Iudgements of Synagogicall Assemblies were subject unto that of the middle Sanedrim and that of the middle to that of the Supreme or if there were onely two that of the
lesser Sanedrim unto that of the great one as has been proved by Mr. Rutherford Gillispy Hearl c. Art 1. and 2. 3. The Representative Church or first Generall Councell at Jerusalem had Power and Authority over all the Churches of the world since it gave them a Minister viz. Mathias Ergo All other Churches in their Iudgements and Power of creating such a Minister were subject unto it Object If it be said That it was an extraordinary Councell 1. Because it was indicted and convocated by Christ 2. Because it was compounded of extraordinary Persons 3. Because the Persons received extraordinary gifts there 4. Because it was in the birth and beginning of the Church Reply The Scripture saith not That it was Extraordinary As for the the Proofs I answer to the first 1. That howbeit it was indicted and convocated by Christ yet was it not indicted and convocated in an extraordinary way 2. That a Councell may be extraordinarily indicted and convocated and yet be ordinary in its proceedings 3. That the Indiction and Convocation of a Councell is Extrinsecall and Antecedent to a Councell because that it is before that the Councell be and therefore cannot make it Intrinsecally extraordinary when it is existent So Adam was made in an extraordinary way of Earth and by creation and Eva of Adams Rib and yet they were not extraordinary persons in their nature existence conservation or accidents 4. Neither read we that it was convocated in an extraordinary way 5. Neither can it be extraordinary because it was convocated by Christ for by the same reason all that ever Christ did to men should have been extraordinary To the second I have already answered To the third I answer 1. That the extraordinary gifts were personall only and belonged unto the materiall parts of the Councell and not to the form thereof and therefore could not make it formally extraordinary in quality of a Councell for formall denominations are not taken from the matter but from the form so if there be six or seven Ecclesiasticall persons assembled to dinetogether we call it not an Ecclesiastical Assembly 2. I answer That these extra ordinary gifts were subsequent unto the Councell or at least to that Ecclesiasticall proceeding in the election of Mathias Now that which is subsequent to any thing cannot denominate it formally or at least in the time precedent when the Subject precedeth such a subsequent Adjunct or Circumstance See more concerning this Argument heretofore To the fourth I answer 1. That all that which was in the birth and infancie of the Church was not Extraordinary for by that reason the Preaching of the Gospel and the Administration of the Sacraments should have been Extraordinary 2. Things that are Ordinary must have a beginning 3. And howsoever at their beginning they be Extraordinary in respect of time because before their beginning they were not Ordinary but out of the precedent order yet they are Ordinary in respect of Gods Ordinance or Law which is ordinatio rationis that should be ordinary in Gods Church Object If it be yet said That Mathias was an Extraordinary Minister and his Vocation Extraordinary I answer That all that is true and yet in this Extraordinary Vocation there was something Ordinary viz. The Nomination and Election or Admittance of him to be a Minister of the Church according to the Independents opinion otherwayes their Argument should be very impertinent in proving from hence the power of the people in choosing their Ministers That which there was Extraordinary was not done by the Councell and therefore could not make the Councell Extraordinary As much may be said of that Councell that created seven Deacons for many Churches 5. But principally we will urge that businesse of Antioch in that difference betwixt St. Paul and Barnabas on the one part and some Pharisees converted to the Christian Faith on the other Hereupon it was resolved that Paul and Barnabas should go up to Jernsalem unto the Apostles and Elders about that question v. 2. they were sent by the Church of Antioch v. 3. they were received by the Church and by the Apostles and Elders of the Church at Jerusalem v. 4 the Assembly being gathered at Jerusalem the Cause was heard v. 4.5 considered v. 6. discussed v. 7. voyced v. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 judged v. 22. the Iudgement or Decree of the Councell or Assembly sent to Antioch from the 22. v. to the 30. read and obeyed by the Church at Antioch c. v. 31. Here is the Church of Antioch judged by a superiour Church at Ierusalem an Appeal formed or interjected from the one to the other received by the other judged and obeyed And therefore it cannot be denyed but there was some Subordination betwixt these two Churches and that the one had authority over the other To this Argument some answer 1. That if it prove any thing it can only conclude an Appeal from one Parish Church or particular Congregation unto another since the Church of Antioch and of Hierusalem were no other then Parish Churches Rep. 1. This Answer cannot hold 1. Because no such thing can probably be collected out of this Text or of any other in Scripture and therefore it may be as easily rejected by us as it is alleadged by them 2. Because hardly can it be proved that in those times Churches were divided into Parishes 3. Because an Appeale cannot be from one Parish or Congregationall Church unto another since their authority is equall but only from an inferior to a superior Church or Judicatory 4. Because if it was from one particular Congregation to another then that Congregation from which it was appealed was not compleat in its Judgement but had need of some Extrinsecall power which is against the Tenets of Independents themselves 5. Because if we might appeale from one particular Congregation to another how much more from a particular Congregation unto a Synod wherein the Spirit of God and especially that of Prophecie doth more abound 6. Because the Apostles in Hierusalem were not members of any particular Church 7. Because if the Assembly at Hierusalem had been a particular or Congregationall Church it could not have given out a Decree which should have bound so many Churches to obedience viz. those of Antioch Syria and Cilicia v. 23. 2. It may be otherwayes answered That it was an Appeale but not to any Ordinary but an Extraordinary Church viz. to that of the Apostles and that for these Reasons 1. Because it was Extraordinarily gathered 2. By Extraordinary persons 3. It was compounded of Extraordinary persons viz. the Apostles 4. Because this Appeale was to the Apostles who were infallible and Extraordinary Ministers 5. Because it was in the birth and beginning of the Gospel Rep. 2. This Answer cannot hold 1. Because the Scripture declareth not that this Church or Assembly was Extraordinary 2. Neither is it a satisfactory Answer whenever
there is evermore an Authoritative power of citation and calling of all those who are within the compasse of such a jurisdiction for citation is a medium whereby we come to judgement and it is a maxime most certain that Media accipiunt suam necessitatem a fine finis mediis conciliat amabilitatem To the fourth Some think it very probable that Paul and Barnabas were sent thither from Antiochia but Paul was not Minister of any particular Church no more was Barnabas for any thing we read in Scripture and therefore appearingly they could not be sent from Antioch a their particular Ministers but since they were also Universall Ministers they might receive a particular Commission from particular Churches since the Apostolate the charge of an Evangelist and Prophet contain in themselves virtually the charges of ordinary Ministers If it be said That they were Party and therefore could not sit as Judges It may be answered That men cannot be taken for Party when they compear before the Synod and when they are taken for Party by Innovators and Sectaries onely and persevere in the Doctrine already received in the Church for if that were admitted That every man promiscuously might be taken for Party then might a Felon or Traytor take all his Judges for Party and so never be judged and therefore in Iudgement when any one will decline the Sentence of his Iudges and take them for Party his Reasons are examined and considered whether they be of force and validity or not 2. It may be that they were chosen to be Members in the Synod before that this dispute fell out 3. It is not needfull that we prove all singular Circumstances from Scripture It will serve our turn if we prove That it was some Occumenick Nationall or Provinciall Synod from whence we may infer by necessary consequence that Commissioners were sent from particular Churches thereunto Now whether S. Paul and Barnabas were there in quality of Commissioners it is not needfull to know 4. This Assembly was a Generall or Nationall Assembly as we have proved Ergo Either it was a set Assembly as the Popes Consistory or as a Chapter or such as we have taken it for But ye deny the first two Ergo Ye must grant the third or give some other 5. Ye your selves admit Synods to which particular Congregations send their Commissioners Delegates or Messengers call them as it pleases you Ergo Ye cannot deny them If ye deny their quality or power to judge that is another question which is different from this To the fifth I prove it For no man hath power to judge in Ecclesiasticall Causes but they who have the abilities such as are onely Church Officers because no man can take this office but he who is called as Aaron such as are not every one of the people amongst whom as ye say many have not confidence enough but are timorous and others are rude or impertinent If ye had answered all my Book ye might have found more Reasons but of this you are like to hear more God willing in a particular Question To the sixth This Councell imposed upon the Church some things indifferent of their own Nature as that of abstaining from blood and things strangled for howsoever they were necessary necessitate praecepti in so far as commanded yet were they not necessary in themselves or necessitate medii and so they are called in the Text things necessary partly necessitate praecepti partly of conveniency or remedy for to avoide offence Some call it necessitas non facti sed facientis when the thing of it self is not needfull but the Agent maketh it necessary to himself as we do in abstaining from things whereat our Brethren may take offence howbeit we give them none 2. Your Independent Church taketh that Authority unto her self as when she ordains a certain day and a certain hour for her Sermons and meetings Wherefore then may not a Synod do it 3. The Church by Gods Authority may ordaine of things Necessary so may she of things Indifferent when they may conduce to a thing that is necessary Nam media accipiunt necessitatem à fine 4. For howsoever some things be indifferent in generall yet are they not such in particular in matter of Practice for then they become necessary because of some particular determinations and references that they have to some good ends in respect of time place persons c. 5. This is but one only Point of Presbyterian Government and not all and howbeit ye should gaine all this as ye doe not yet would it not follow that the Presbyterian Discipline were absolutely to be condemned To the 7. The Proofs of the 4. may prove this also 1. For if it was a Provinciall Nationall or Generall Synod or Councell every Church concerned therein must have had their Commissioners 2. Ye your selves acknowledge Synods to have a Synodicall authority howbeit not as we and thereunto ye send your Messengers as ye call them and therefore what right ye claime to send your Messengers the same had the Churches of Syria and Cilicia to send theirs to Hierusalem but if they did it not the more were they to blame for such neglect Now it sufficeth me to prove that they had power and were bound to send their Commissioners thither To the 8. I answer 1. It is not needfull we prove that Paul and Barnabas were Commissioners at Hierusalem for the Church of Antioch It may be that they were their Commissioners it may be that they had some others 2. It sufficeth that they had power to send their Commissioners thither and were bound to doe it And this bindeth them to submit themselves to their Decrees 3. This Disputer is absurd whereas he will oblige us to prove every particular yea individuall Circumstance It is a common Maxime that de singularibus non datur scientia The Scripture obligeth us not to know all the singular Circumstances of every thing it propounds but it delivereth us Documents of all things necessary unto Salvation which either contain formally or from whence may be concluded all that we are bound to know either directly or indirectly and per deductionem ad impossibile mediately or immediately To the 9. I answer that every particular Minister may preach and admonish in the name of God for they are all Ambassadours of God We are Ambassadours for Christ as though God did beseech you by us We pray you in Christs stead be ye reconciled to God 2 Cor. 5.20 It is also said that the Lord did work with them Mark 16.20 and that they are co-operators or labourers together with the Lord 1 Cor. 3.9 Since therefore they are Gods co-operators or labourers with the Lord and the Lord with them yea in their Deliberations Iudgements and Preachings wherefore may they not say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us viz. to the Holy Ghost as the prime cause and to them as to his Ministers and Ambassadors
procure her peace and to put all the Churches of God in confusion rather then in order 21. Is it credible that God should have given his Son to death to purchase us an Order whereby all Churches might live in Peace and Unity and yet make them to quit all Sacramentall Communion one with another having no common Confession of Faith nor any common plat-forme of Ecclesiasticall Government among them Whether in the Militant visible Church there should be an Jndependency of Churches CHAP. I. The Question Stated AS M. S. of the first Question made two so doth he here of the second other two viz. his third Question for Presbyteriall Government whereof he treated in the former chap. and his 4. Question of Independency whereof he treateth in this his 4. chap. but they are not two Questions but two divers Opinions about one and the same Question so having committed this fault he commits againe another much worse for he goeth on very confusedly in the beginning of his Dispute and without ever stating the Question or declaring what he meaneth by Independency he goeth about to justifie his Independent government in a Cataskevastique or assertive way wherefore to the end that the Reader may the better judge both of his Cataskevastique and of my Anaskevastique way I will state the Question and shew what he hath to prove and I to refute 1. Note therefore I pray thee courteous Reader that Independency is a sort of Ecclesiastical Government whereby every particular Church is ruled by its Minister its Doctor some Ruling Elders and all those who are admitted to be Members thereof who how Heterodox and Haereticall soever they be in Doctrine and how wicked and damnable soever they be in their Lives will not yet submit to any Ecclesiasticall power whatsoever yea not to that of all the Churches of the world were they never so Orthodox and holy in their lives 2. Note that the reason wherefore they will not submit to any Ecclesiasticall authority according to their opinion is not out of any disobedience in themselves as they pretend but for want of authority in the Churches for they beleeve that howbeit any particular Church or any of her members should fal into never so damnable Heresies or wickednesse that yet God hath not ordained any authoritative power to judge her but that her power is as great as that of all the Churches in the world and that all that they can do in such a case is no more but only to Counsell her as she may do them and in case she will not follow their Counsell that they ought to do nothing else but onely declare that they will have no more communion with her as she may likewise do to them in the like case viz. if they will not follow her Advice when she is offended with their Doctrine Government Life or Proceedings The Question then betwixt us and them is whether God hath established any such Independent Government in his Church or not We deny it M. S. affirmeth it and argueth as followeth M. S. Page 75. of his Book Who then can lay any thing to the charge of this Government That can I quoth A. S. in effect page 38 39. c. I have 10. Reasons or Objections against it A. S. I confesse that M. S. braggeth of this his Independent Government as his words expresse but it is a manifest untruth that ever I bragged of 16. Reasons as M. S. most foolishly representeth me here It is A. S. his custome to bring Reasons and not to boast of them as it is M. S. his manner to boast and bragg with high words without any reason at all And for answer to this I say there is no one such word or expression in all my Booke It is but M. S. his words and fiction M. S. I shall not spend time in transcribing these your Reasons but shall desire the Reader though it may be some discourtesie unto you to take your Booke into his hand A. S. I am bound to your courtesie good Sir that will not let my weake Reasons appeare in Front against your strong Answers But since it is not M. S. his pleasure that they appeare in his most worthy Booke I hope that the courteous Reader shall not be offended if I make them together with his Answers and A. S. his Duplyes appeare here in mine My Arguments then were such as follow CHAP. II. Reasons against the Independency of Particular Congregations 1. THe Independent Churches have no sufficient remedy for miscariages though never so grosse no reliefe for wrongfull Sentences or Persons injured by them no Powerfull or Effectuall meanes to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into Heresie or Schisme c. All that they can doe is only to pronounce a Sentence of Non-Communion against Delinquent Churches as on the other side Delinquent Churches may doe against them 2. This Remedy is new neither was it known to the Independent Congregations before that emergent Case in Holland related in the Apologeticall Narration for if that Church offending had known so much it is not credible that she would against all charity and the common Order of all Churches have committed so great a Scandall 3. This Remedy is not sufficient nor satisfactory because all Churches according to your Tenets are equall in Authority independent one of another and Par in parem non habet imperium None hath power or authority over his Equall How then could any Church binde another to any such Account but out of its free will as a Party may doe to its Party 4. Because the Churches that are or that pretend to be offended by a Delinquent Church cannot judge her for then they become both Iudge and Party in one cause which cannot be granted to those who have no Authoritative power one over another as when a Private man offendeth the State and We our God 5. What if many Churches yea all the Churches should offend one should that one Church gather all the rest together judge them all and in case of not submitting themselves to her judgement separate her selfe from them all If so we should have Separations and Schismes enough which should be continued to all Posteritie to come 6. What if Churches were so remote one from another that they could not so easily meet together upon every occasion Then there should be no Remedy at least no easie Remedy 7. What if the Offence were small Should so many Churches for every trifle gather together and put themselves to so great cost and trouble 8. What if the Churches should differ in their Iudgements one from another In such a case should they all by Schismes separate themselves one from another 9. This sort of Government giveth no more Power or Authority to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker yea to a Hangman over a thousand for he may desire them all out of charitie to give an account of their Iudgement in case he be offended
by them Neither see I what more our Brethren grant to all the Churches of the World over one But the Presbyteriall Government is subject to none of these inconveniences for the collective or combined Eldership having an Authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundry matters are dispatched and all things caried by Plurality of Voyces without any Schisme or Separation 10. This Government viz. Iedependency is a Power wherein the Party is judged if he will and so the Iudgement of the Iudges suspended upon the Iudgement of the Party judged which is most ridiculous without any example in Civill or Ecclesiasticall Iudicatories a Iudgement not very unlike to that which is related of a merry man who said That he had the best and most obedient Wife in the World because saith he she willeth nothing but what I will And as all men wondred at it knowing her to be the most disobedient yea saith he but I must first will what she willeth else she wills nothing that I will 11. This sort of Government is unjust and unreasonable for not only the Party judgeth its Party but also inslicteth the same punishment viz. Separation upon all offending Churches whatever the offence be great or small in case of non-satisfaction whereas all Punishments should be commensurable unto the severall Offences 12. And so ye seem to approve the Opinion of the Stoicks who held all sinnes to be equall since ye inflict the same punishment upon them all 13. Not only this Discipline cannot be easily put in execution in great Kingdomes as England wherein all the Churches offended cannot so easily meet together But also 14. Because the person offended after he hath represented his grievances unto the Church and that Church hath received satisfaction he may goe to another and so continually in infinitum to the Worlds end evermore taking those Churches for the Party that judge it which is most absurd and foolish 15. What if the Party offended be poore and have not the meanes to post up and down from neigbour-Church to neighbour-Church to pray them to make the offending Church to give an account of her Iudgement Much lesse to attend upon their uncertain conveniencie Here will be found true Pauper ubique jacet Whereas in Presbyteriall Government the Party offended may be easily redressed and get satisfaction as not having need so to post up and down to be at so great charges or to attend their conveniencie for by a simple Appeale he may binde the Church offending to appeare at the day appointed 16. What if there should fall out an hundred such offences in a short time Must so many Churches evermore gather together for every one of them apart 17. What if Churches be poore and cannot be at so great expence Then in that case it should seem there is no Order to meet with Offences I may adde these following Reasons 18. This Independencie maketh all the Churches of Christ like so many Scopae dissolutae loose Broomes that have no tye or band to hold them together and so destroyeth the unity of the Militant Church 19. The very word Independencie applied to men how much more the thing signified thereby should be odious to all Christian ears as being proper to God Almighty How proud abominable is this expression We seven men who constitute this Church we will not depend on all the Churches of this World We will not depend on any create Ecclesiasticall power yea not upon all the Angels in Heaven and men upon Earth but will be Independents and have others to depend upon us 20. If so what is the cause that ye oppose the Kings Majesties Absolute or Independent power in State matters Truly this being only Secular cannot be so dangerous as the other viz. as Yours for this only may be prejudiciall to our Bodies or States but Yours may kill millions of Soules neither is the Kings Authority more limited in the State then yours is in the Church 21. What will ye that where-ever there is 7. or 8. of you combined together to make up a Church ye shall depend on no man but have an independent and absolute power to bring into the Kingdome whatever Heresie ye please to blaspheme God and so vi irresistibili with the Arminians to goe to Hell If so God have mercy on you But it may be said that the Civill Magistrate may hinder them But M.S. will answer 1. That he should not punish any man for Religion 2. That the Civill Power is of another sort then Ecclesiasticall 3. What if the Civill Magistrate be not a Protestant or what if he be a profane man 4. Howbeit he were a Protestant and a good Christian yet should it follow that the Church-power is neither sufficient nor perfect in suo genere since it must have recourse unto the Civill Magistrates power which is of another nature and extra hoc Genus CHAP. III. M.S. his Evasions refuted and my Arguments made good and first those that he bringeth against the third Argument M.S. answereth not all nor any considerable number of my Arguments as he confesseth himselfe but scratcheth at a few of them whereby he weakens them not but overthroweth the Government of all States That of the Church of the Old Testament the Practice of the Apostles and Apostolike Churches and the fundaments of Independent Government it self as God willing we shall see hereafter The first of my Reasons that he snaps at is the 3. viz. This Remedy viz. of non-Communion is not sufficient nor satisfactory because all Churches according to your Tenets be equall in authority Independent one of another and par in parem non habet imperium none hath power or authority over his equall How then could any Church binde any other to any such accompt but out of its freewill as a party may doe to its party M. S. 1. Suppose that course which the Apologists insist upon be not in the eye of reason a means sufficient to such a purpose yet if it be a meanes which God hath authorized for the effecting it it will do the deed A.S. It seemth that M.S. would fain enter into the Lists against Reason it self but he must know that Gods Ordinance and Reason are not opposite one to another since he who is the author of Nature is the Author of Grace also neither as Author of Nature sights he against himself as Author of Grace 2. It is a Maxime of Popery and Lutheranisme to oppose Nature Grace 3. Christ and the Apostles served themselves of Naturall Reason in Scripture 4. And out of the case of supernaturall revelation above it which cannot be contrary unto it it must be beleeved 5 He supposeth that Independency and withdrawing and renouncing all Christian Communion with such Churches untill they repent is a sufficient meanes authorized by God which hitherto appeareth not yea
to refuse yours Neither can a Negative Thesis be otherwayes proved but by a Medium that is repugnant either to the Attribute or to the Subject of the Question So this your Censure is very ridiculous absurd and impertinent 2. I have proved it to be conform to Gods Word 3. It is not credible but that Government is most convenient to Gods Word which is most convenient and commensurate unto the end That God commands us to intend and to tend into neither can I beleeve that God hath ordained us any means that are not fit and proper for the end that he intends or commands us to intend for that were repugnant to his Soveraign Wisedom 4. And as for your Examples they are not to the purpose for all these facts of Saul Vzzah c. were contrary to Gods expresse command neither were they convenient to the end intended by God or that we should tend unto viz. Filiall Obedience to the command and the Typifying of Christ and his Benefits The example of Saint Peter was 1. a manifest breach of the sixth Commandment in killing a man without publike Authority 2. It implyed an act of diffidence and of too great confidence as if Christ had had no other means to deliver himself but his sword in this Peter trusted too much to his own sword and too little to Gods Providence 3. It contained an act of Precipitation and too great boldnesse and rashnesse in drawing his sword in his Masters presence without yea against his Masters will and command 4. It was repugnant to the end for which Christ came into the Word viz. Christs death and the Redemption of mankinde by it whereof Peter before that time had been so oft advertised c. So is it not in Presbyteriall Discipline Neither is there any damnable Errour or Heresie in Consistoriall Government as in the Papacy We say not that any of our Assemblies are Infallible as the Pope pretends himself and his Generall Councell to be neither pretend we That our Assemblies have any despoticall or lordly domination over the Church as the Pope doth we say not That our Assemblies are above Gods Word as they do These comparisons of M. S. are no lesse then blasphemous And here I must advertise the Reader That all the Presbyteriall Assemblies together take no greater Authority over the Church then six or seven Independent Tinkers an Hangman with them together with one of their Ministers do over the flock The Independent Preacher with his six or seven persons are liker to the Pope and the Consistory of his Cardinalls because of their Independency then any of our Churches which are all Dependents and subject to Superiour Authority M. S. pag. 79. § in his second Answer telleth me That he cannot inform himself 1. What A. S. means by Authoritative power 2. Or from whence our Churches have it A. S. I have 1 fully declared in my Annotations and here above what it is 2. And from whence it proceedeth It is a Ministeriall power to command such as are subject thereunto which bindeth or obligeth them to obedience and whereby in case of disobedience they may inflict Spirituall punishments It is of God or from God and therefore lawfull Now whether it be of God as Author of Nature or of Grace by the Law of Nature or any Positive Law Naturall or Supernaturall it is not a Question de re sed de modo rei not of the thing it self but of the manner thereof Grant me either that it is lawfull or deny it If it be a lawfull power it is of God for there is no lawfull power but of God Rom. 13.2 Grant me the thing and afterwards I shall dispute with you de modo rei They have it not of the Parliament nor of the State as you pretend for secular men cannot give any Spirituall power into the Church they have it of God and by Gods Word directè or per consequentiam and in some things per non repugnantiam It is an untruth in M. S. in his third Answer whereas he sayeth that I seem to imply That the Church hath this power from the Law of the State for howbeit the Civill Magistrate by his Laws put a Politicall Obligation upon Christians to obey the Churches Spirituall Authority which is from God yet is not his Civill Authority the cause of the Churches Spirituall Authority or of the Obligation whereby a Christian is bound to obey the Church for howbeit there were no Civill Magistrate or howbeit he should dissent from such an Obedience yet should the Church have Spirituall power and all the Members of the Church in a Spirituall way should be bound to Obedience But what then doth the Civill Magistrates Law Answ It puts a new Bond or Obligation upon the Members of the Church and bindes them again by a Civill Authority Extrinsecall to the Church to a Spirituall Obedience who heretofore were onely bound by a Spirituall Obligation so he bindes them to a Spirituall Obedience but not spiritually as the Church Authority doth but onely materially and that by Civill Authority So the Ministers of the Gospel or rather God by them oblige and binde the Subjects in the State in a Spirituall way by Gods Word to obey the Civill Magistrate or Politicall and Civill Obedience but not Politically or Civilly but Spiritually so it followeth not That the Civill Magistrate hath power to form Ecclesiasticall Government onely it followeth That in a Politicall way he may oblige or binde men to obey it No more followeth it that I resolve Church Government into the humors wills and pleasures of the World c. Onely it followeth That the Civill Obligation laid upon men to obey the Church so far forth as Civill must be finally resolved into the Civill Magistrates power and not into his humours as M. S. most contemptuously speaketh of him M. S. his fourth Answer is in retorting my Arguments 1. What if a Particular Congregation under the jurisdiction of your Eldership reflecting upon the Oath or Covenant it hath taken for subjection thereunto as likewise upon all other ingagements that way as unlawfull shall peremptorily refuse to stand to the awards or determinations of it what will you do in this Case Will you Excommunicate this Church The Apologists in their way do little lesse or will you deliver them brachio seculari To be hampered and taught better then it seemeth you can teach them by Prisons Fines Banishments c. Churches had need take heed how they chuse men for their guardians that will so dispose of them if they please them not 2. And what if in the Session of your combined Eldership there be no such thing as Pluralitie of Votes concerning the Excommunication of such a Church Is not the remedy you speak of now in the dust A. S. To the first Quaere I answer That we must do by Spirituall power in the Church that that the Civill Magistrate doth by the secular power in the
That not long since I heard one of the Ringleaders of the Independent Sect deliver this Doctrine in a Sermon at the Abby of Westminster viz. That to a saving knowledge of God it sufficeth not to know him in the Book of Nature or 2. as revealed in the holy Scriptures but that we must also know him as abstract from his Mercy and all his Attributes Now if this be a common Tenet of your Religion I must confesse I am none of yours My Reasons are 1. Because that if it be so rude people that know nothing of so refined Abstractions must be damned 2. Because to be saved it is most necessary to know God as concrete with his Mercy or as mercifull towards us in Christ 3. If I know God evermore under this refined abstraction from Mercy I must be damned 4. Because if I know God abstracted from his Mercy I know him out of Christ and out of the Gospel for God in Christ and in the Gospel is not abstract but concrete with Mercy 5. Because the knowledge of God as revealed in Scripture is sufficient to salvation Ergo it is not needfull to know him any otherwayes in this life 6. Because if I know God out of Scripture and abstract from Mercy it is a Knowledge without Faith for Faiths formall Object is God in Christ as revealed in Scripture and therefore it is a knowledge of God in Christ as revealed in Scripture and therefore there must be some saving knowledge of God without Faith 7. If a saving knowledge of God be of God as abstract from all his Attributes it must be a knowledge of God without any Simplicity and so of God as abstract from a pure Act. 8. As abstract from all his Perfections i.e. without all his Perfections 9. E. of God as abstract from his Goodnes and so as without his Goodnes 10. Of God as without Insinitie 11. Without Omnipresence 12. Without Immutability 13. Without Eternity 14. Without Life without Knowledge Science or Wisdome 15. Without any Will 16. Without any Love towards Mankind 17. Without Hatred of Sin or Sinners 18. Without Power or Omnipotencie 19. Without any Decree of Predestination or Reprobation 20. Without any Providence or care of his Creatures 21. Without Creation and so not as Creator For to know God as abstract from these Attributes is to know God as without them Now who dare say that to know God as abstract from all those Attributes or without them is a saving knowledge This is indeed an Independent saving knowledge independent on Gods Word on Christ on Faith and all Grace and consequently most gracelesse 23. To know God as abstract from all his Attributes is to know God as abstract from his Essence and so to know God as without himself or his own Essence or Being for Gods Attributes are not only eadem cum Essentid ut personae sed de Essentia de quidditativo ejus conceptu praedicatae ejus essentialiae and some of them quasi de specifico ejus conceptu from which God can no wayes be abstracted 24. If God be considered as abstract from all his Attributes it is no more a knowledge of God but some Idol of the Independents brains sicque habes meum candorem vestrum pariteratrorem Now let the Reader judge which of our two expressions is most Malignant M. S. his third Answer comes to this Grant them their desires i. e. A full liberty and they will bray no more then the wilde Asse doth when he hath Grasse A. S. 1. All Hereticks say as much yea the Devill would be glad to agree with God upon such terms 2. But God hath forbid the Church to tolerate you 3. In New England they of your Party will tolerate no Sects 4. And such a Toleration here cannot but breed all sorts of Divisions Whereas if there be one onely Discipline or Church Government established we shall have no Distractions at all 5. But how can I pray unriddle it me a Liberty granted to contest and quarrell one with another ever take away contestations and quarrells 6. If the Presbyterians be the cause of Divisions because they tolerate not you as you say so was Moses and Aaron for not tolerating Core Dathan and Abiron Your Simile of him who murthered the Duke of Burgundie will hold if it be applyed to your Sect otherwayes it is altogether impertinent and beside the present purpose M. S. his fourth Answer cometh to this That in case one Government were established it would breed as great or more Factions and Divisions then if a Toleration were granted A. S. This Argument concludeth as well against Moses in favour of Core Dathan and Abiron as against us for if Moses had granted such a Toleration to them and their Sect as the Independents are now Suitors for it would not have bred such Divisions And if the non-Toleration of it breed as great Divisions as the Toleration of it would have done what is the cause that this Toleration of your Sect breedeth so many injurious and calumnious Expressions against the Presbyterians What would ye not say and do had ye once gotten a Toleration To M. S. his fifth Answer That sundry persons of one Family in the City hear divers Ministers without any Division A.S. I answer That those Ministers are not of divers Sects or if they be without doubt it breedeth many Divisions and alienates their mindes one from another Neither can any Godly good man who is bound by duty to have a care of his Family but be grieved when he seeth his Children his Wife and Servants separated in affection from him and the Church wherein he serveth God and to eat at his Table in his House when they will not eat at the Lords Table with him in the House of God What ye say of a House of bondage if we were all under one Government it is most false For by the same Reason the People of God should have been in an House of bondage when they came out of Egypt and were brought into the Land of Canaan because that there they had but one Government So with you it must be an House of bondage in every State that hath but one sort of Civil Government I will not answer his vain vaunting in extolling his own Sect Onely I wonder that he is offended at us that we desire but one good Government what ever it be Is it ill to have but one good Government Wherefore does he plead for many ill Governments Wherefore will not those of New England admit many if it be so good If it be want of Mercy not to tolerate others how mercilesse were the Mercies of New England that would not tolerate Presbyterians no not in a corner of their Countrey when their Necks were put in the Pillories their Noses slitted their Ears cut and their persons imprisoned What M. S. sayeth of distractions of mindes under Episcopall Government it was not for want of a Toleration of all
differences but evermore by their Externall Causes or by their Accidents and sometimes by their Opposites and Negations of some other things The very Apprentices in Logick know thus much 4. But if we know the Essences of things in themselves as this M.S. pretends if he say any thing to purpose how is it that there is so great debate about them as 1. about the soule of a man whether it be spirituall or corporall 2. About the totall Essence of a man whether it be the Soule alone his Soule and Body the Soule and its materia prima the union of both the image of God Religion or some other thing And to urge this more home upon your Example of the Light If we know the Essences of things distinctly and in themselves as I said what is the cause of so great a diversity yea of so great a contrariety of opinions about its Essence or Nature How is it that some Philosophers hold it to be in some Predicament others to be in none some to be a Substance others an Accident some to be a spirituall substance others to be a Body others neither viz. neither to be a corporeall nor a spirituall but a spiritalis substantia others the presence of a luminous body others a reall colour others an apparent colour others a spirituall Quality some a naturall power others a sensible quality If we knew it essentially and distinctly in it self and not meerly accidentally we could not so doubt of its Essence wherein it consists But it seems that this Man Doctor Holmes and some of that Sect are as Hereticall in Philosophie as Schismaticall in Divinitie and so they have conspired with as little successe against Naturall as against Divine truth M.S. sayes that my meaning may be that if a Toleration be granted for Independencie the Practice of it should become a Schisme from the Presbyterian Church A.S. No such thing but I maintain that Independencie is already at least materially yea Formally ratione Formae essentialis in foro Conscientiae interno a schisme from all the true Churches in the World since they willingly have separated themselves from them all in matter of Sacramentall Communion as also in that of Discipline And you should have done well to have answered this which no doubt you met with in my former Book and not oblige me to repeat it here It will also be a Schisme ratione Formae Accidentalis externae in fore externo from the Church of England if in Gods mercy any other Discipline then Independent be established in it So is it also in respect of the Presbyterian Church which is already established in France Holland c. yea and here in England in the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches So is it in respect of the Church of Scotland the Discipline whereof is approved by the King which ye have all sworne to maintain But sayes he we have no Presbyterian Church among us and so if a Toleration be granted before such a Government be established it is apparently 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 out of the reach of such an imputation for ever A. S. 1. It is false that we have no Presbyterian Church among us We have it in the French Dutch and other Churches wherewith the Church of England professed evermore a Sacramentall Communion which the Independents break 2. Whether it be granted by the Parliament or not that hinders it not from being a Schisme for the Toleration of the Parliament is altogether extrinsecall to Schisme and there were Schismes in the Primitive Church without any Toleration of the Civill Magistrate 3. His Supposition is impious and ridiculous for Toleration according to M.S. his judgement is evermore of some reall or at least of some apparent Evill Now can the Parliament or the Assembly of Divines in good Conscience tolerate an ill Government before that they establish any good one Is not that to begin with the Devill to serve him before that we serve God Should not the Parliament begin with You as the most considerable Party A. S. his 4. Reason If a Toleration be granted to our Brethren I cannot see how it can be well denied to other Sects M.S. answereth that Bernardus non videt omnia A.S. But I pray you then Father Epistemon that sees all things make me by some Reason or other to see how it can be denyed to other Sects for there is the same Reason for a Toleration of them all M.S. bringeth this Reason He saith he that keepeth a doore with lock and key and bolts to it may let in one man that knocks without letting in all commers A.S. But if the other knocketh also wherefore will he not open to him and let him in as well as the other If he open not there is no Reason but Will that keeps him out so there is the same Reason but not the same Will for both it is a meere Prosopolepsiia or Acceptation of persons which is not well done If it be said that other Sects differ more from us then the Independents Ans 1. It is all one Magis minus non mutant speciem in matter of Toleration 1. For then all must be tolerated howsoever some more some lesse 2. And some of our Brethren viz. M. S. grants all the Argument 3. And if we distinguish so they must declare and expound cleerly what Sects and what Opinions are to be tolerated and what not which will be a Question inextricable which no mortall man appearingly is able distinctly to determine M. S. answereth not to any of my Reasons only he is offended that I say it is a Question inextricable c. He sayes then 1. That I prevaricate with my own Cause but wherein here altum silentium 2. He saith that I put the Magistrate to a stand whether he should tolerate Presbyterian Government or not But I have already answered 1. That it is already approved here in England in the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches 2. That the English Divines in the name of all this Kingdom approved it in Holland 3. That the Kings Majestie confirmed it in Scotland 4. That we entertain Sacramentall Communion with all the Protestant Reformed Churches and that the Independents alone do quit it 5. That all the three Kingdoms and the Independents with them by their Covenant and Oath are bound to maintain Presbyteriall Government in Scotland 6. And they are bound to Reform the Church of England according to the example of the best Reformed Protestant Churches and namely that of Scotland which all have onely Presbyterian Government 7. And we have sufficiently confirmed it by sundry Testimonies of Scripture and other Arguments grounded on Scripture 8. Neither is this his Question to the purpose for quaestio quaestionem non solvit I ask him what Sects are to be tolerated in a Kingdom wherein the true Doctrine and true Discipline according to the publike Judgement both of the State and of the Church are established
that therefore that Government which is more generally established and practised in the World should be that specificall Government whereby it ought to be governed A. S. Neither intended I to inferre or conclude any such thing Only I say that whatever the Assembly conclude or the Parliament establish in the State yet according to Gods Word Pluralitie of Ecclesiasticall Disciplines or Governments can no wayes be concluded or established and consequently ye goe against Gods Word in pleading for it And therefore all is lost that you build thereupon I cannot better answer your comparing of me with Herod then to slight it with the rest of the overflowings of your Call One good Argument would help your Cause more then a hundred Injuries Is this the Independent Power of Pietie you talk so much of Unto M. S. his 2. Answer I grant him That before he and his Colleagues be sufficiently informed of the lawfulnesse of any Government that in Gods mercy shall be established they are not bound to obey much lesse ought they to be scourged as he speaketh But when they are sufficiently informed of the lawfulnesse of it I meane sufficientiâ morali which is all that Men can furnish them but not Physicâ which is only in Gods hands they must obey and no wayes plead with all Hereticks and Schismaticks non-Conviction and pretended Conscience and Toleration and want of Authority in the Civill Magistrate to punish them They must obey as well as the false Prophets and Schismaticks of the Old Testament M.S. 3. Answ The servants of Christ should not fall foule for uniformitie in Discipline and the greater eat up the lesse God hath provided other meanes A. S. If divers Disciplines be established by Law the good Ministers must tolerate that which they cannot mend and serve themselves of all the means they can according to Gods Word to reduce their Brethren to the right way But if they be not yet established none but one should be approved by the servants of God and the Civill Magistrate in imitation of Moses or rather of God is bound in duty only to admit one and that the most conform to Scripture unlesse he will bring in Factions and Schismes both into Church and Commonwealth and that principally when any of them may be dangerous for both as Independencie which may prove more dangerous then seven Heresies But in all this M.S. answereth not my Argument formally but most ridiculously grants the Premisses and denieth the Conclusion A. S. 15. Neither Christ nor his Apostles ever granted any Toleration to divers Sects and Governments in the Church Wherefore then will ye be Suiters for that which they never granted M. S. here neither denieth the Antecedent nor the Consequence of this my Argument but singeth his old song That neither Christ nor his Apostles did ever grant a power to a major part of Profossours in a Kingdom or Nation to grind the faces of their Brethren either because they could not conform their Judgements with them or because they kept a good Conscience A. S. 1. We grant you all that 2. Neither are your faces grinded 3. Much lesse grinded for non-conformitie of your Judgements with theirs or keeping of a good Conscience 4. Your Conscience is very ill that will not be informed of the Truth 5. We have told you that Anabaptists Separatists and others like unto you pretend the same thing 6. Ye furnish us here an Argument against New-England men in their proceedings with Godly Ministers here 7. Live quietly and trouble not the Church nor the State and ye may live here a peaceable life without any trouble to your Consciences 8. But it is a foolery in you to think that your faces are grinded because your Brethren will not consent that ye erect a Sect have Pulpits allowed you to beat down the Truth They are bound in Conscience to resist you as ye take your selves bound to resist them 9. If you think your faces grinded here you may be gone and live in contentment there from whence ye came 10. And yet howbeit your Brethren of the Ministeris take not upon themselves any thing but to resist you with the Arms of the Spirit yet must you thinke that the Civill Magistrate hath no lesse power over you here then your Civill Magistrate hath over Sectaries in New-England 11. But it were better for you Brethren to take a resolution to live with us in unitie under such a Discipline as may be concluded and setled in the feare of God But cannot you live in this World unlesse you give a Law to all the World What you say of Presbyterians in assuming of something imperious c. is but a Calumny M.S. 2. answers my Argument with a Question Whence we have a Toleration of our Presbyterian Discipline A. S. 1. It is a Maxime in Philosophie that Questio questionem non solvit one Question solves not another 2. I answer That we have its institution from God in his Word as we have already demonstrated it and He in instituting of it hath ordained that it be not only tolerated but also received and preached through all the World as I have already proved 3. In France it was brought in by Christs Ministers established by a Protestant King and some others before him who had some taste of the Gospel 4. It hath been there established by the Law of the Kingdome and the Protestant Armies which God blessed under a Protestant King against the Pope the Papists and Jesuites who would have pulled the Crown off his head to set it upon Don Philips that so fighting for his Crown he might also fight for that of Christ Iesus and establish it gloriously in his Kingdome And all this may be easily confirmed by the French History and sundry Edicts in favour of Protestants It is an untruth that ever it was tolerated by the Romish Church for they imployed all their endeavours to oppresse it yea against all Law They are bound to their King who is also bound to them for fighting for his Cause In England it is established as I have sundry times told you in the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches by the Kings and Parliaments Authority And how it hath been established in Scotland it is better known then I can declare it viz. by Civill and Ecclesiasticall Authority M. S. his 3. Answer or Objection against my Reason commeth to this That by the same Reason Papists will not tolerate Protestants whom they hold for Schismaticks A.S. 1. This is only said but not proved 2. They neither tolerate Hereticks nor Schismaticks when they can hinder them 3. The Papists hold not us simply for Schismaticks but also for Hereticks 4. And consequently if your Argument hold That we must tolerate whatsoever they tolerate since they tolerate us in quality of Hereticks in their judgement we must also tolerate Hereticks yea Iewes also and permit them Synagogues as they doe yea we must tolerate an hundred Religions as
he sayes in the next § of my feare it is a just feare grounded upon experience But M. S. Replyeth 1. That some Independents hold that all Sects and Opinions are to be Tolerated as A. S. relateth Ergo In that case his Sect may be secured also A. S. I Answer to the Antecedent And that We feare also viz. That ye would Tolerate all Sects which we will not Tolerate 2. VVe cannot be secure among all Sects for there be some that will not Tolerate us 3. Ye speak so but for the present but if ye had power we know not what ye would do It were better not to Tolerate Sects when we can hinder them then to bring them in amongst us to tolerate us and to give us so just a cause of feare 4. I said onely that there be some of you who would Tolerate all Sects who peradventure are the far lesser part and should not prevaile in their Voices 5. And we know not upon what tearmes they would tolerate us if they were the strongest 6. Neither can your pretended probity secure us we see the Examples and have the experience of your mercilesse Pitty in New England ye are all ejusdem farinae and Caelum non animum mutat qui trans mare currit And what I said of your Piety it can serve you little 1. For I spake but of a few of you viz. of the 5. Apologists 2. Because it was but a judgement of Charity wherein I may be deceived yea wherein I have been deceived 3. Good men sometimes may for want of light be dogged enough to use your own tearmes as ye grant your selfe of your New England Independents Unto his 3. Reply That a poore Toleration is far from Superiority it is true But from a Toleration it is to be feared ye goe further And if ye can get the Civill Magistrate drawn into your Faction as in New-England ye may be as dogged in a short time as they are To the 4. Reply That he thinketh not that I know any such Island It is a wonder that he knoweth it not as well as I but it is little to purpose No more is his Answer for it is but a currish jeere and toucheth not the Argument at all He puts in 5. a Jeere for a Reason God have mercy on the silly Argumenter A. S. My 17. Argument was That the Scripture forbiddeth all Toleration of Sects Revel 2.20 1 Cor. 1.12 3.3 11.16 18 19 20. Heb. 10.25 Gal. 5.12 M. S. his 1. Answer The Scripture doth not forbid all nor any such Toleration as the Apologists desire And remitteth us to his Answer unto my 15. Reason And I remit the Reader to my Reply To the Text of the Revelation 2.20 he saith That by the Toleration of Jezabel is not meant ◠Civill or State-toleration but an Ecclesiastique or Church toleration A. S. Howbeit formally there only be meant an Ecclesiastique Toleration yet by Consequence it reaches to a State Toleration 1. For whatsoever the Ecclesiasticall Senate or Presbytery is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the Church that the Civill Magistrate or Senate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the State since he is a Nurse of the Church and a Keeper of the two Tables 2. And so did the Judges and the Kings of Gods people 3. And so doe the Christian Independent Magistrates in New-England 4. Neither is the Christian Magistrate lesse bound to put it out of the State then the Presbytery to put it out of the Church 5. And I would willingly know of the five Apologists their judgement upon this Point neither beleeve I that they dare say or at least doe beleeve that he is not bound to suppresse all sort of Sects that creep in into the Church when the whole Kingdome professeth the true Religion and Discipline 6 However M. S. say that they desire only a toleration for themselves and their Churches in the State yet he pleadeth for a toleration for all Schismaticks Hereticks and Idolaters that may spring up either in their own or any other Church 7. Neither can the Civill Magistrate if he follow Gods Word grant a Toleration without the consent of the Church if he judge it is not corrupted 8. And a Magistrate should be worse then mad that should permit a Sect to come into the Kingdome to preach down the Gospel which he beleeveth 9. Neither can he be Orthodox and tolerate a new Sect unlesse he tolerate us to believe that he is either corrupted by monies or some other way so to doe M.S. his 2. Answer p. 105. is That since only the Church of Thyatira is here charged with this Toleration evident it is that the power of redressing emerging enormities in a Church in every kind is committed by Christ to every particular Church respectively within it selfe and so that they must be cut off only by the particular Church which is troubled by them if there be no remedy otherwise A.S. 1. At least then thus much I gaine by this Argument as you confesse That a particular Church must cut off such as trouble her and consequently is bound not to tolerate them 2. For the same reason other Churches must not tolerate them since they are all sister-Churches Ergo no Church must tolerate them Ergo no member of the Church must tolerate them If no member Ergo the Civill Magistrate in quality of a member of the Church must not tolerate them or he must tolerate them against his Conscience And what he cannot tolerate in the Church as a member of the Christian Church that can he not tolerate in quality of a Christian Magistrate in a Christian State if he can hinder it And if he hath power to punish such as trouble one particular Church how much more hath he power to punish such as trouble all the Churches in the Kingdome as Schismaticks and Hereticks The Civill Magistrate then by consequence may cut them off from the State As for that Question which M. S. moveth here about the Independent power of particular Congregations it is not to the purpose and we discusse it more at large in its own place A.S. There must be no such speeches among us as I am of Paul I of Apollos c. M.S. We joyn heart and hand with you A. S. And I with you so they must not be tolerated when they can be hindred M. S. addeth here a But 1. Every man that saith I am of Paul or I am of Apollos is not to be taught to speak better by fining imprisoning un-Churching or the like but by soundnesse of Conviction A. S. I answer as I have sundry times done Sinners according to the Doctrine of our Churches are 1. To be heard 2. To be sufficiently convicted 3. After sufficient conviction if they be pertinacious to be punished condignely by Ecclesiasticall Censures viz. suspension from the Lords Table or Excommunication And afterward the Civill Magistrate is to doe his duty
sin and the more inexcuseable are we 15. And if the Parliament should follow your Counsell good M. S. it should be to be feared they should be ill obeyed and that many good men would rather take the Bishops and Cavaliers by the hand and in case of necessity tolerate them both and let themselves be plundered then consent to such an abominable perjury and I am assured the one is much more tolerable then the other is and then what should become of the Parliament and us all 16. But tell me I pray thee M. S. Is it not a Maxime of State laid down as indubitable by those who have written in favour of these Defensive Wars of both the Kingdoms That the King in Temporall and Civill Matters hath not an absolute but a limitted Power and that because that Soveraign Power is originally in the People but subjectivè or quoad usum exercitium in the King If that hold in the King wherefore not also in the Parliament But how much more in matters of Religion that depend not either of King or Parliament but of Gods Will All power here is originally in Christ and quoad exercitium Ministeriale in his Officers but from Christ What Power hath either King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdom new Religions or a Toleration of all Sects 17. The Parliament assumes no such power to it self wherefore then will Independents be Suiters to them for any such things which they declare themselves they have not power to grant Away with thee M. S. and all thy Independent Sect and all your unhappy Maximes of State so pernitious to all States of the World After all this this M. S. telleth us that they will with Isaac patiently suffer themselves to be bound and offered in Sacrifice if need be A. S. It is easie to offer your selves to be Sacrificed when there is no Priest and when no man offers you any violence but onely prayes you to live amongst us as Brethren and not to trouble the Church State or Kingdom If you be minded to become such a Free-will-offering in good earnest ye would do well all of you in the first place to quit the good fat Benefices ye have in the Church But so long as ye keep them we cannot beleeve that ye speak sincerely Alwayes it is a pretty Compliment and a painted Sacrifice not with red but in white and black And to close up his Reasons he concludes thus Better a thousand times is it that such distempers as these though found in millions of men should suffer were it never so deep then that the least Hair of the Head of one of those men should fall to the ground i. e. Better that millions of us who desire the suppression of all Sects should suffer then that any of them should loose but one yea the least Hair of their Head A. S. To this I can say nothing But if we in your Opinion be so distempered for the desire we have to see Sects suppressed whereby God is offended the Lord be judge betwixt us How precious in your eyes one little Hair of your Head is which ye prefer before the sufferings of so many millions the Reader will do well to take it into his consideration and accordingly to judge of you what a high rate you set by your selves and what an undervalue ye put upon all the World besides I am assured that servatâ proportione one of your lives is better then the Kings and all the Parliaments put together for there is none of them but rather then that one man should dye they would part with the Hair of their Heads and Beards both AN ADVERTISEMENT TO THE READER M S. in the second Chapter of his Book Section 28. hath some Arguments against the Power of the Civill Magistrate to punish Idolaters Heretiques and Schismatiques which seem also to make for a Toleration for these two Questions have a great Affinity together Wherefore I thought it fittest to put off my Answer unto them to the last place The first is God hath anointed his Word and the Ministery thereof For the casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts it self against the knowledge of God and for the bringing into captivity every high thought unto the Obedience of Christ 2 Cor. 10.5 And he gave some to be Apostles c. Ephes 4.11 12. c. Ergo The Civill Magistrate hath no power to punish Heretiques Schismatiques c. but must tolerate them A. S. 1. I deny the Consequence For the Ministers of the Church are anointed to beat them down by Spirituall means viz. The Word c. whereof alone those Texts speak But the Civill Magistrate is anointed or called to beat them down by other means viz. by Civill Power and Civill Laws which he is bound to make thereabouts and to see observed 2. If this Argument hold the Civill Magistrate cannot beat down by his Civill Authority Sins committed against the second Table as Adultery Murther c. because that the Ministers of God in the Church beat them down spiritually by the Word And this Text is as well to be understood of Sins against the one as the other Table 3. Howsoever the power of the Ministery or Ecclesiasticall Power be able and sufficient to beat down all sin spiritually yet is it not sufficient or able to beat it down politically 4. Neither say these Texts that God hath anointed or ordained the Word and Ministery alone and no other means or Ministers as the Laws of the Kingdom and the Civill Magistrate in a Politicall way for such an effect 5. It is true as M. S. sayes that God gave not some in the Church to be Kings Princes Judges and Justices of Peace Pursevants Jaylors c. For Christ and his Apostles erected not any Civill Government in the State but supposed it already constituted in the Old Testament And that the Civill Magistrate therein was endowed with Civill Authority to punish such as trouble the Peace of the Church 6. Howbeit that in this Text there is no mention made of the Civill Magistrates Power to punish such persons yet is it declared in other Texts as Rom. 13.1 There is no power but of God Ergo It is for God since God is both the first Efficient and the last or ultimate Finall Cause of all things if he be for God Ergo He is to revenge his Cause since he is his Minister Ver. 4. And when he maketh a Politicall Ordinance concerning Gods service Whosoever resisteth his power resists the Ordinance of God and they that resist shall receive to themselvet condemnation both eternall and temporall Vers 2. if thou do that which is evill be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain for he is the Minister of God as well in the State as the Preacher in the Church a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evill Here there is no distinction or restriction in the Law Ergo It is
That Conscientia erronea ligat sed non obligat an erroneous Conscience bindes a man so up that it hindereth him to do the good but it obliges him not to do the ill that it dictateth Neither is this the Question Whether an Heretick is bound to beleeve what the Magistrate willeth him to beleeve But whether he should have power to erect Churches against the Orthodox Religion as the Independents would And whether or no the Civill Magistrate can hinder him by his Civill Power from so doing Now the Argument proveth not the Negative part neither doth the Civill Magistrate compell private men to beleeve but not to trouble the peace of the Church in setting up of others without his permission M. S. his fifth Reason If the Civill Magistrate hath an actuall Coercive power to suppresse Schisms and Heresies c. because he is truely a Christian then Christianity changeth the propertie and tenour of his Magistracy and that for the worse for in vertue thereof he acquireth a power to crush his Subjects for the exercise of their Conscience yea to persecute the Saints which he had not before If so Christians have little reason to pray for his Conversion But the Consequent is false Ergo. A. S. 1. I deny the Consequence of the Proposition for both the Christian and Unchristian Magistrate have the actuall Coercive power howbeit they have not both actually the act of that Power for both the one and the other hath that Morall power in actu signato or the Remote power but the Christian Magistrate onely hath it in actu exercito i. e. The immediate Authority to exercise it because he hath or should have or is supposed morally to have all things requisite to the exercise thereof So is it not in a Pagan for he hath not the knowledge of the Gospel whereby he should exercise it nor the will to exercise it justly which is presupposed to it so he hath as it were potestatem sed caret usu potestatis as a Childe that hath a reasonable Soul and all the reasonable Faculties that a man hath but he hath not the use of Reason or of those reasonable Faculties he hath facultatem quasi ligatam as he who cannot see for a tye that he hath in his eye 2. I deny that Christianity changeth his power to worse for it is not as you say to crush good but to mend and reform ignorant and ill men and to chastise them Nulla enim potentia ad malum the Apostle telleth you that he is the Minister of God to thee for good Rom. 3.4 Rulers are not a terrour to good works Wilt thou then not be afraid of the Power Do that which is good Vers 3. M. S. his sixth Argument That power is very dangerous to a Magistrate to own in the exercise whereof he may very easily run an hazard at least in fighting against God or in plucking up that which God hath planted or in pulling down that which God hath built But such is that power of suppressing Schisms Heresies c. Ergo. The Assumption he proveth it because the Opinions that he sees by other mens eyes to be schismaticall may be the wayes of God 1. Because the judgements of these men are not Apostolicall 2. Frequent experience shews that a Minor part yea an inconsiderable number of godly Persons in a Church may have the minde of God in some particularities before the Major part have it 3. It seldom or never falleth out that any truth which hath for a long time been under Hatches and unknown to the generality of Ministers in a Church hath been at the first and on the sudden revealed either to the Generality or to the Major part of them Ergo. A. S. I answer 1. to the first It is no more dangerous then the Magistracy it self so as if it be dangerous to own the Magistracy so is it likewise to own that part of it whereby in vertue of his Civill Power he ruleth the Church civilly and so all the Argument may be granted and the greater that the danger is to own it the greater a great deal should his circumspection be 2. If this Argument hold it will conclude no lesse against the Civill and Ecclesiasticall Government of the Old Testament and that of the Civill Magistrate of New England also 3. I may deny the Major for if he accept of the Magistracy it is a far greater danger not to accept this part of the charge for there is a necessity laid upon him in vertue of the Magistracy to accept it as the principall part thereof 4. The greater that the danger and difficulty be so much the greater is the vertue in exercising of it and the greater will the retribution be for it 5. It is not very dangerous to own the charge but not to exercise it faithfully 6. To the Assumption I Answer That it is but one of M. S. his may be 's quod nihil ponit in re The Confirmations of it also contain but may be 's Their judgements I grant you are not Apostolicall 1. But no more are the judgements of your particular Congregations 2. Or those of the King and Parliament or of any mortall men at least ordinarily and yet notwithstanding they are lawfull 3. Neither is it needfull that they be infallible but without fault onely To the second proof 1. It is but a may be which yet may not be 2. And it is extraordinary 3. And howbeit it were so ordinarily yet followeth it not that your Independents are such 4. If it were so Gods truth Ordinarily should not prevail 5. All Schismaticks and Hereticks who are few in number may say as much So Mistresse Hutchinson in New England I le warrant you said no lesse To the third 1. I deny that the truth whereof we dispute hath been under the Hatches as ye pretend 2. All Hereticks and Schismaticks say the same 3. And in all these his Reasons he argueth evermore a facto ad jus from the Fact to the Law and from that which is to that which should be and from that which may be to that which is The Authority of Gamaliel Act. 4. is but of a prophane Politician who would rule the Church and Religion according to Politicall Ends. M. S. 7. Reason That Power which was never attributed to the Civill Magistrate by any Christians but onely by those that had very good assurance that it should be used for them appertaineth not to him by divine right But that Coercive Power in matters of Religion for the suppressing of Errours Schisms Heresies c. was never attributed to the Civill Magistrate by any Christian but onely by those that had very good assurance that it should be used for them Ergo. A. S. I answer That if the word Power in the Major and Minor be taken for an Ecclesiasticall Power which is intrinsecall to the Church I grant you all the Argument neither concludes it any thing against us But if it