loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
greatest Councel that euer was was called by him the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed beseeching the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father Constans vpon the hearing of these thinges presently writeth to his brother and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith Constantius moued with thâ—se letters appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica and willed the Bishops as wel of the East as the west to be their present After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers Constans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode and exhorted him to restore them to their places which when Constantius delayed and differred the West Emperour offereth him this choyse either to restore them their Churches or if he woulde not to looke for hostilitie and warre Wherupon the East Emperour being driuen to this streit sent for Athanasius and his fellowes by three seuerall letters and not only restored them but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel but Athanasius was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him where matters were ended by number of voyces Phi. Yet we saide trueth that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius Theo. I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities conclude nothing For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs Phi. You make too light of our proofes Theo. Then put you more weight to them I take them as I find them and for ought that I see you can not mend them Phi. Well esteeme them as you lift they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes Theo. I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome lest it fall that hee spareth neither men nor money to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him but when all is done God will strike the stroke Phi. No doubt he will but neuer for you that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church Theo. You be more shamefully fallen from his word consequently from faith which is the foundation of the Church neither can he be ioyned to the Church which is seuered from the Gospel But we go from the matter your examples bee not yet all discussed Phi. Returne when you will Theo. Chrysostome and Augustine you say asked ayde of Innocentius Phi. They did so Theo. Ayde they might aske and he might yeeld and yet neither make for your purpose Phi. That were maruaile Theo. None at all Chrysostome whom you first name sought for helpe as Athanasius did but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great that Innocentius coulde not preuaile Phi. It serueth our turnes that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome notwithstanding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him Theo. Chrysostome sought nothing but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges Phi. It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie that Chrysostome sought this at his handes Theo. You must make your foundation surer before your building will stand You sawe by the last example of Athanasius that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke vnlesse their consents were first had And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome request of Innocentius that he would neither admit nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him as good nor communicate with him that was chosen by them to succeede in his place Phi. This still confirmeth that nothing was good if the Bishop of Rome did dissent Theo. And still that inferreth nothing but yâ— the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne or should bynde the whole Church And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equalitie with others as a part of the Church you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others as the heade of the Church Your examples shewe this that others without him could not bind the whole Church because the conseÌ„t was not general your conclusion must be this that he without all others as Christes UicegereÌ„t in earth might dispose the whole Church at his pleasure See you no differeÌ„ce betwixt these two positions Phi. I confesse they differ but can you shew that others withstoode him as well as he withstood them Theo. Yea that I can Phi. Arians perhaps or Donatists Theo. Nay Catholike fathers Councels Phi. Shew that and you say somewhat to the matter Theo. That I will shew when your proofes are ended I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together Phi. Ours I graunt are much after one sort and therefore I long to heare yours Theo. No hast but good anon you shall you would faine I see ridde your hands Phi. You shall well know the contrarie Say what you can Theo. I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example Phi. Doe we not These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius Wherefore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen I beseech you write that these vniust proceedings both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement may be of no force as in deed of themselues they are not and let them which haue doone this wrong feele the censure of the ecclesiasticall Lawes and suffer vs that were neither conuicted nor charged with any crime nor so much as conuented to enioy your letters of communion and charitie and likewise of all others whose fellowship wee had before Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sentence voyd that was giuen against him to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion Theo. To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it to excommunicate the doers was nothing els but to communicate no longer with them which euery Bishop and prouince might do when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered Phi. This petition was made to Innocentius alone and not to the residue of the West Bishops Theo. If Innocentius alone were spoken to the matter is not great Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren for feare least when the matter came to voyces as in the end it
the Church of her inheritaunce when your selues euery day if that speach bee not tolerable commit blasphemies innumerable If other examples doe not stay your wisedomes remember your vsual stile for the Pope is summus Pontifex Supreme Bishoppe summus and supremus being all one I meane not in sense onely but in speach also For they both bee superlatiues from the same comparatiue Superior and summus is nothing else but the very contraction of the woorde Supremus So that if Supreme Bishoppe with you doe not spoile Christ of his Priesthoode how can supreme Gouernour with vs lift him out of his kingdome he clayming expressely to bee chiefe Pastor and Bishoppe of our soules and renouncing in woordes and refusing in deedes to bee an earthly Prince and iudge in temporall thinges as the Scripture plainely recordeth And therefore first confesse and correct your owne ouersight if not error which taketh from Christ or at lest diuideth with him his speciall and peculiar title and then if we proue not that all men haue written and spoken in like sort as wee doe you shall find vs readie if that be your feare to retract euery syllable that is preiudicial to the sonne of GOD and to giue him as much honour as you can wish or wee deuise which when it is most is no more than hee well deserueth Phi. You content vs somewhat if you stand to this which you say that you giue Princes no Power against the faith nor Canons of the Church and that the gouernment which you acknowledge in them for spirituall things and causes is nothing els but their temporall and externall might and meanes to see the Rules and precepts of Christ and his Church receiued and settled in their Realmes and to punish the neglecters and resisters of the same And yet your termes were so large that your owne friendes reproued them as well as wee Theo. Neither misplace nor mistake my wordes Against the precepts of Christ or Canons of his Church wee giue Princes no power most true we doe not mary by the Canons of the Church we do not meane the Popes Bulles or decrees nor the partiall iudgements of such Councels as he hath assembled for his faction and framed to his fansies These bee late violent and wicked intrusions but the auncient and Godly Rules of Christes Church generally receaued of all good Christians and generally confirmed of all good Princes these be the Canons which Princes in dutie should not in equitie may not subuert if they wil be taken for faithful defenders and not â—or wilfull oppressours of Christes church For if in temporal things Princes may not dissolue the Lawes of their Progenitors nor frustrate the liberties of their people against reason and Iustice how much lesse ought they to violate the true Canons and euacuate the good orders and discipline of the Church concluded by so many Godly Fathers confirmed by so many worthie Princes and setled in so many sundrie places and ages Constantine saith Eusebius confirmed with his authoritie the Canons which the Bishops had agreed on in their Synodes lest the Rulers of his Prouinces should infringe them We decree saith Iustinian that the sacred ecclesiastical Canons concluded and confirmed in the fower first generall Councels haue equal force with our lawes For we keepe the Canons of the foresaid Councels as lawes And again It hath beene rightly said of Emperours before vs and of vs also that the sacred Canons ought to take place as lawes Athanasius obiected this to Constantius as a note of a tyrant that he did abrogate the Canons with violence and ordered all things against the Canons And Gregorie when it was written to him that the Emperour commanded an other to be chosen for the Bishop of Iustiniana within his prouince by reason of the sicknes which the said Bishop was troubled with in his head made this answere The Canons do no where commaund that a Bishop should loose his office for sicknesse And therefore it is against iustice if a Bishop fall sick that he should be depriued of his honor If the said reuereÌ„d Bishop for his own ease do require to be discharged of his Episcopal function when hee deliuereth that petition in writing it must bee graunted Otherwise I dare not doe it for feare of almightie God Whatseeuer the Emperour commaundeth is in his owne power Let him prouide as hee seeth cause onely let him not cause mee to bee partaker of this mans deposition That which hee doeth if it bee according to the Canons wee follow it if it be against the Canons we beare it with silence so long as wee may without sinne on our parts Phi. Where haue you this place Theo. Why doe you aske Phi. Because wee find the former words in our Decrees but not the later Theo. In deede you say trueth they were not for your diet they shewe that the Bishoppe of Rome was obedient to the Emperour in ecclesiasticall causes so long as the Prince did ioyne with the Canons and that hee was silent when the Prince went besides the Canons so farre foorth as hee might without sinne in himselfe And therefore the Collector of your Decrees left out the last wordes and changed the first by putting the Popes person in steede of the Princes For where Gregorie begynneth Scripsit mihi tua dilectio pijssimum Dominum nostrum reuerentissimo fratri meo Ioanni primae Iustinianae Episcopo pro egritudine capitis quam patitur praecipere succedi Your Louingnes wrate vnto mee that our most religious Lord commaundeth an other to be chosen in the place of our reuerende brother Iohn Bishoppe of Iustmiana because of the griefe of his head Your Lawe reporteth it thus Scripsit mihitua dilectio me reuerentissimo fratri Do. c. Your Louingnes wrate vnto me that I commaunded an other to bee chosen c. which is a detestable and inexcusable forgerie but my purpose is to shew that good Princes obserued and esteemed the Canons of the Church no lesse than their owne Lawes and tooke them for paternes to guyde their Edicts in causes ecclesiasticall as sayth Iustinian Our Lawes doe not disdaine to follow the sacred Rules or Canons Phi. It abateth the supreme power of Princes very much to bee bound to the Canons of the Church Theo. No more than it doeth in ciuill regiment to bee tied to the groundes of nature reason and equitie from which no wise nor sober Prince woulde wish to bee loosed And Princes bee Supreme not in respect that all thinges bee subiect to their willes which were plaine tyrannie not Christian authoritie but that all Persons within their Realmes are bounde to obey their Lawes or abide their paynes and themselues not depriueable by the Pope but reserued to the righteous and terrible iudge if they abuse their swordes to the maintaining of error and oppressing of innocents Phi. Yet this is cleare that the sworde which Princes beare is temporall
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
Priesthoode who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters poâ—shard and hath right in his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom al kings shall fall downe and all Nations do him seruice Theo. That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters shard and that he hath right both within and without his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom all kings on earth and Angels in heauen shall fall downe and doe him seruice these thinges are vndoubted with vs and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome while you closely conuey the Princes Scepter vnder the Popes feete Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supereminent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes ouer all creatures ouer the States and liues bodies and soules of all men Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like In sooth masters you must make hard shift before these reasons will bee good Phi. Christs Priestly prerogatiue passing his owne regall dignitie much more excelling all other humane power of the worlde in most ample and exact termes is coÌ„municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church in other manner of clauses than any earthly Princes can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment Fie on that secular pride wilfull blind heresie so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce and yet is of wicked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues and of millions of others Theo. This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie when you should make your conclusion Conclude first and rayle after otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the soundnes of your cause Phi. Our illation is euident Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe buyld and destroy But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is communicated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules The chiefe Pastor therefore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant plucke vp buyld and destroy Theo. The power which you mention in your first proposition is attributed to Christ not as a Priest but as a king The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell S. Iohn applieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ. I saw the heauen open and beholde a white horse and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes On his head were many Crownes and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword that with it he should smite the heathen and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes Howe thinke you His horse his Crowne his robe his traine his sworde his stile described in this place expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse and had his owne blood shed for the remission of sinnes As a King hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vnder his feete bee they Princes or others Your Maior is therefore false that to bruse kings with an Iron rod and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode Your Minor that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not communicated to any other Such an high Priest saith S. Paul it became vs to haue which shoulde be holy vndefiled separated from sinners made higher than the heauens who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe and after that one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God hauing obtained eternal redeÌ„ption for vs and being able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope lest wee crie fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are communicated to others then your conclusion hath no force both your premisses being meere particulars For though Christ gaue some part of his power honour to his Apostles yet this hee gaue not and therefore his gift to them can doe you no good vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue amongst the rest which he bestowed on them Phi. Hee sayd to Peter and his successours Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen Can you require a more ample graunt Theo. Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sacraments not the Scepters and swords of Princes And so Christ himselfe expoundeth his graunt vnto them Whose sinnes soeuer you remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine they are retayned And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen not of the kingdomes on earth Bernard though he were but of late yeeres yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra quoniam propter illa non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges and not for these And so Theophilact Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose to bee the pardoning or punishing of sinnes And so S. Ambrose The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes As also Saint Augustine The keyes Christ gaue to his Church that what she loosed in earth should be
three admonitions and the last publike after the which if that take not place we shal be excused before God if we no longer accept him that did vs wrong in the number of our brethren Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane that is sayth S. Augustine Noli illum deputare iam in numero fratrum tuorum nec ideo tamen salus eius negligenda Do not accompt him in the number of thy brethren and yet his saluation must not bee neglected For the Ethnikes themselues that is heathen men and Pagans wee doe not recken to bee our brethren and yet we seeke to saue them By this you may doe well to erect a Court where euery subiect may sewe his Prince for priuate iniuries and to make your selues Iudges of all such matters that if the Prince refuse your order you may take his Crowne from him Is not this thinke you good diuinitie for a Christian Common-wealth Phi. If hee that will not heare the Church in priuate offences betweene man and man must bee taken and vsed as an heathen how much more he that will not heare nor obey the Church in publike and haynous sinnes against God Theo. Take the place howe you will of priuate or publike iniuries or sinnes against man or against God no such thing is consequent as you would seeme to inferre If hee heare not the Church whosoeuer whensoeuer in what cause soeuer graunt all this that your antecedent may bee the freer from checke or chaunce what will you conclude Phi. He must bee to vs as an heathen Theo. And what then must heathen Princes bee depriued of their Crownes and Scepters Was not Caesar an heathen when our Sauiour willed all men to giue to Caesar the thinges which were Caesars Was hee not an heathen Magistrate before whome Christ stoode when hee sayde Thou couldest haue no power ouer mee vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue Were they not heathen Princes to whome Peter and Paul required and charged all Christian Princes to bee subiect without all resistance Did not the Church of Christ taught by them so to doe submit her selfe for the space of three hundered yeeres to heathen Princes and those terrible and most bloudie tyrants Phi. We deny not this Theo. You can not If then disobayers of the Church must be vsed no worse than heathens and publicanes ergo they must neither bee spoiled of their goodes nor afflicted in their bodies nor remoued from their seates if they be Princes For these things by Gods Law the Church might not offer to Pagans nor Publicans Phi. This that Christ saith if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and a Publicane is by the iudgement of S. Augustine more grieuous than if he were slaine with the sword consumed with fier or torne with wilde beastes Theo. And why because the iudgement of God to the which he is reserued shall bee more heauie to him than any humane torments can be And this maketh rather against you than with you For if the neglecter of the Church shal be so grieuously punished at Gods hands why doe you challenge to your selues the corporal correcting and chastising of such as disobay the Church And so Saint Augustine expoundeth himselfe It is by and by added saith he by our Sauiour Amen I say vnto you What you bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen that we should vnderstand how grieuous a punishment it is to bee left vnpunished by man and to be reserued to the iudgement of God Phi. The Church hath decreed that heretikes shall not beare rule ouer Catholikes and this voice of the Church all men are bound to heare vnlesse they will be counted for Pagans and Infidels Theo. First the Church can make no such decree next the Church of Christ neuer made any such Decree Phi. May not the Church make that Decree Theo. Shee may not Her power concerneth the soules of men and not their bodies and neuer goeth beyond the word and Sacraments Shee may not intermeddle with the temporal states and inheritances of Priuate men against their willes much lesse with the thrones and swords of Princes The Church cannot giue leaue that children shall disobay their Parents nor seruants their Masters nor weomen their husbandes because God hath already commanded they shall obay whose precepts the Church is with al reuerence to receiue and with all diligence to obserue and not to frustrate or hinder the least iote of his heauenly will and Testament If any particular places or persons attempt the contrarie they cease to be the Church of GOD in that they wilfully reiect and change the worde of God S. Augustine saith well Non debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere The Church may not preferre her selfe before Christ. Neither may we beleeue the true Churches them selues vnlesse they say and doe those things that are consonant to the Scriptures Yea we must accurse the Angels in heauen if they should do otherwise The whole Church oweth the same dutie to all and euery the precepts of God that ech priuate person doth And therfore shee may not dissolue nor disappoint the least of them Now the Church her selfe is commanded by the mouth of Christ and his Apostles to honor and obay Princes For these precepts be general touch the whole church Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers Submit your selues to the king as the chiefest For so is the will of God neither Monke Priest Prelate Pope Euangelist or Apostle exempted as in the place where I haue already shewed Ergo shee hath no right to dishonour or depose Princes nor to licence their subiects to resist them at her will and on her warrant which is the grounde that you build on Phi. They be but flatterers of Princes that so say or heretikes that so thinke that the ministers of Christes most deare spouse of his very mysticall bodie his kingdome house on earth whom at his dâ—parture hence he did indowe with most ample commissioÌ„ and sent foorth with that authoritie that his father before gaue vnto him haue no power ouer Princes to denounce or declare them to be violators of Gods and the Churches Lawes nor to punish them either spiritually or temporally not to excommunicate them nor to discharge the people of their oth and obedience towards such as neither by Gods Law nor mans a true Christian may obay Theo. If we knewe not your accustomed brauerie you might somwhat trouble vs with your insolent vanities but now we haue so good experience of your fierce lookes and faint harts that we neede not feare your force Bring somwhat besides your own conceit that the Pope may depose Princes and then call vs flatterers and heretikes at your pleasure If not take heede you proue not presumpteous and stately rebels against God and man I winne you be the
no tumults at home no despites abroade able to withdrawe the Princes hart from liking and louing the trueth but the godly reioyce to see so perfect a mirrour of faith and deuotion in a Christian Queene that shee rather chooseth to suffer your wrongs and abide your reproches with patience than to steppe one foote from that Lord which hath graciously blessed and mightily preserued her person Scepter and people from the iawes of his and her enemies Phil. And where no Iewe no Turke no Pagan can by the law of God nature or nations he forced from the manner and perswasion of his owne Sect and seruice to any other which by promise or profession he or his progenitors neuer receiued onely we that neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers euer gaue consent to any other faith or worship of God but haue in precise termes by protestation and promise bounde our selues in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone are against diuine and humane Lawes and against the Protestants owne doctrine in other nations not onely bereaued of our Christian dew in this behalfe but are forced by manifold co-actions to these rites which we neuer knew nor gaue our consent vnto Theo. Fewe men without your cunning could huddle so many so manifest vntruthes in one sentence No Iew no Turke say you may be forced from his religion If that were so what maketh it for your defence which chalenge both the names and roomes of Christian men and are in respect thereof for iust cause required to performe that in deede which you pretend in woorde and by moderate correction driuen to keepe the Christian faith which in Baptisme you professed For heretikes of al sects and sortes may be compelled to followe truth though infidels might not and so your inference fayleth when you say no law forceth Iewes or Pagans from their perswasion therefore not Christians nay rather if we graunt Iewes and Turkes excusable for these two reasons lacke of knowledge and want of promise certainely Papists being neither void of the first nor free from the last may yea must bee compelled of Christian magistrates for dread of punishment tempered with good instruction to forsake their heresies and forbeare their idolatries wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced As the ioynts of your argument bee loose so bee the parts vntrue For king Darius seeing Daniel strangely deliuered from the Lions denne made this decree that all people nations and languages in the worlde should reuerence and feare the God of Daniel Likewise the king of Niniueth at the first denouncing of Gods wrath by Ionas immediatly with the consent of his Counsel caused this proclamation to be made through the Citie that man and beast shoulde put on sackcloth and cry mightily to God and euery man turne from his euill way Lo Sir two kings precisely commaunding their subiects and therefore readie to punish the refusers without delay to worship a strange and vnknowen God albeit the true God whome neither they nor their forefathers made promise to serue and yet I thinke you will not say they brake the Law of God nature or nations in so doing S. Austen will assure you that the King of Niniueh did God good seruice by compelling the whole Citie to please God A thirde instance for this matter is the calling of Paul first as a Iew and so within the limits of your assertion then strooken with blindnes amased with terror from heauen and therefore compelled to Christianitie by corporal violence y touched Paul neerer than impouerishments or imprisonments wherewith you find your selues greeued Behold saith that learned father in Paul Christ first compelling afterward teaching first striking then comforting and hee that entred into the Gospel constrained with bodyly punishment laboured more than all those that were called only by mouth I might refel your idle florish by the later examples of Polonia Russia Lithuania forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auncient Idoles and receiue baptisme By the long and sharpe warres which diuers good Princes maintained of purpose to compell the Saxons and Vandales to the faith By the sore vexations and afflictions of the Iewes in euery Christian common wealth Al which both old and new first last serue to conuince that Pagans Iewes haue bene forced by rigor of lawes and other meanes to yeeld to the truth without any former promise or farther knowledge which you stifly deny but as I said this is not our question You are no Iewes no Pagans but in shew Catholiques in deed heretikes you were baptized you chalēge an interest in the Church Sacraments by reason of this your first promise and next your outward profession of Christes name you stand in duetie bound and of right may be compelled to serue God not as your owne fansies perswade you nor as the Church of Rome leadeth you but according to the prescript of his word and that tenor of faith which the Prophets and Apostles did teach Phi. We bound our selues in precise termes by protestation in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone other faith and worship of God wee neuer consented vnto neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers Theo. This is your common charme wherewith you bewitch many simple soules bearing them in hand that in Baptisme they vowed to professe your Italian religion which God knoweth is nothing so For in whose name were you baptized Philander In Pius the fift or Gregorie the thirteenth I thinke you were not I knowe you should not no not in Peters or Pauls but in Christes alone Then stande you bound by baptisme to yeelde faith and obedience to no person or place but onely to Christ the first author and ordayner of this sacrament Preach ye the Gospel saith Christ He that beleeueth and is baptized shal be saued What els must you preach what els must they beleeue that will be baptized but the Gospel ergo the preacher and the beleeuer that is the baptiser and the baptised are bound precisely to the Gospel All yee saith Paul that are baptised into Christ haue put on Christ and are the sonnes of God by faith in Christ Iesus hauing one Lord one faith one Baptisme Perceiue you not that in baptisme which no Protestation of yours can frustrate the beleeuers do put on Christ their Lorde not his pretended vicar and are made the sonnes of God not the vassals of Rome by faith which dependeth neither on man nor Angell but directly belongeth to God and his word If thou beleeue with al thine heart sayth Philip to the conuerted Eimuch thou mayest be baptized Now fayth commeth of hearing and that hearing of the worde of God as Paul witnesseth So that when you were Christned you made promise to beleeue nothing saue the word of God whereby faith is engendred and nourished My sheepe heare my voyce
sayth our sauiour a stranger they follow not but flee from him And in baptisme you receiued no mans marke but his for that cause stand bound to regard no mans voyce but his alone Doubt you this Then view the Commission that Christ sent you to baptise with Goe teach all nations baptising them in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost teaching them to obserue all the things which I haue coÌ„manded you This text needeth no gloze Baptisme bindeth no man to the Bishop or Church of Rome but to the wil precepts of Christ. Therfore proue your religion seruice which you stoutly but falsely terme Catholike to be coÌ„manded by Christ or els women children be they neuer so seely wil collect by the manifest words of our sauiour that their promise in baptisme doth streitly bind them from beleeuing your errors admitting your masses vntill you shew good and effectuall warrant out of the word of God that you do what Christ did and teach what he taught without adding or altering any iot For this is the duetie that baptisme requireth of vs to beleeue no teacher but one which is Christ to followe no stranger to regard obey no Lord or lawmaker in the Church but only the sonne whom the father appointed to be Master leader and ruler of the Gentiles And as for your odious outcrie since the lawes of this Realme force you to nothing but what is directly commanded in the scriptures as by discussing your Apologie shal appeare you vowed wheÌ„ you were Christened to beleeue obey the will of God reueiled in his word let the worlde iudge whether your Soueraigne offer you wrong in seeking with milde and gentle correction to reforme your frowardnes or you rather forgetting your promise to God and duetie to your Prince take the way to forsake the Christian faith withstand authoritie Phi. It is against your owne doctrine in other nations that any should be forced to religion Theo. When you note the places and name the men I will answere you more directly than I can at this present to so generall an obiection Howbeit with what face can you reproue the sober and moderate proceedings of his Realme which reuenge the smalest contempt of your idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments for shame rebuke not that in others which in your selues is most rife But graunt some wel disposed persons happily warned you that true religion vseth to perswade not to compell that God did rather teach than exact the knowledge of himselfe and winning credite to his precepts by the strangenes of his heaueÌ„ly woÌ„ders despised the wil that is forced to confesse him Their purpose was to moue your clergy to delight rather in teaching than in tormenting their brethren They thought it a strange and new kind of preaching for bishops to driue men to beleeue with whipping as Bonner did or else they detested your violent and furious maner of compulsion which neither tooke pains to persuade nor alowed meÌ„ time to learn those things which you forced them to beleeue They knewe that if such as wander astray should be terrified not instructed it might be couÌ„ted a wicked ouerruling Or last of al if they spake resolutely without limitation they were nusâ—ed with ouermuch pitie which also beguiled S. Austen at the first in the selfe same point vntil he tooke better aduisemeÌ„t I was once so minded saith he that I thought no man ought to be forced to Christian vnitie but that we shoulde deale by perswading striue by disputing conquere by reasoning least they prooued dissembling Catholiques whom we knewe professed heretiques Our doctrine which you say maketh so much for you is this that your Prelats should not make it their occupation to persecute to death al sorts ages and sexes which refuse your schole trickes or reiect the dregs of your Clementines and Decretals but rather with mildnes patience seeke to recouer such as you thinke lost yet in Princes who beare the sword and are Gods Liuetenants not only to procure peace betweene men but also by lawes to maintaine â—â—â—igioÌ„ towards God we neither did nor do dispraise moderate correction when neede so requireth only we would haue such as stray from truth corrected not murdered For it neuer pleased any good men in the Catholique Church that heretikes should be put to death as Austen affirmeth Many lawes were made to punish them but no Princes law commanded theÌ„ to be slaine Yea the Lorde doth not forbid to skatter the couents of heretikes to stop their mouthes to barre them freedom of speach but to murder and kil them that he forbiddeth saith Chrisostome And therefore your tyranous barbarous hauocke of olde yong men women learned vnlearned we detest with heart and disswade with tongue wishing al Princes to folow the steps of Gratian Theodosius Arcadius Honorius other Christian Emperours who with conuenient sharpnes of positiue laws amerced banished diuersly punished heretikes yet none receiued iudgement of death except only the Maniches whose monstrous blasphemies in agnising the deuil for a god beastly defiling the sacred Eucharist deserued no lesse Such manifold coactions decreed by vertuous Princes when the Donatists rayled at for life the learned catholike father S. Austen earnestly defended to be lawful highly coÌ„mended in sundrie places Thinkest thou saith he to Vincentius no man ought to be forced to righteousnes wheÌ„ as thou readest that the master said to his seruants Compel al that you find to come in and also that Paul was forced to receiue embrace the truth by the great and violent coÌ„pulsioÌ„ of Christ except thou iudge goods landes dearer to men than their eyes Where is nowe sayth hee to Bonifacius that which these Donatists harp at so much it is free for a man to beleue or not to beleue what violence did Christ vse whom did he compel behold Paul for an example Let them marke in him Christ first coÌ„pelling afterward teaching first striking theÌ„ comforting Let them not mislike that they be forced but examine whereto they be forced And citing that part of the second Psalme Be wise ye kings vnderstand ye that iudge the earth serue the Lord in feare how do saith he kings serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with a religious seueritie those things which are done against the commandements of God as Ezekiah did serue him by destroying the groues and temples buylt against the precepts of God as Iosiah did in like manner as the king of Niniueh did forcing the whole Citie to please God as Nabuchodonosor did restraining all his subiects from blaspheming God with a dreadfull lawe Gaudentius reason that the peace of Christ inuited such as were willing but forced no man vnwilling the same father refuteth in this wise Where you thinke that none must be forced to truth against their
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
of both lawes no man gainesaying but all consenting it was concluded that it might bee lawfully canonically done Marke Philander a generall Councell called without a Pope and two Popes deposed in the same for not appearing before the councell al this good lawful by the iudgement of your owne Cardinals diuines and Canonists without contradiction and the Pope himselfe accepting this for a sacred and ecumenicall Councell Phi. I maruaile they went so farre Theo. Neuer maruaile at that The general Councel of Constance which followed fiue yeres after this went a great deale farther For when Iohn the 23 had by his letters called the Councell and sate amongst them in person as president and head of the Councell the first thing they did they began to sift him and notwithstanding he fled and left the Councel without Uicegerent or deputie yet they proceeded and not onely suspended but also depriued him for his notorious Symonie and detestable and vnhonest life and maners And likewise when by no meanes they could get Gregorie the 13 to resigne or appeare before them they condemned him for a schismatike and an heretike incorrigible and cut him off as a withered member And least you shoulde thinke this rashly or lightly done they solemnly decreed that the Pope was subiect to them and bound to obey them could not without their liking dissolue or remoue the councell and to that end they did frustrate and reuerse all that was done or might be done by the Pope present or absent to the preiudice and disturbance of their Synode Can you wish for playner examples that a Councell may proceede without and against the Bishoppe of Rome than these be Phi. I confesse they make me stagger and yet I dare not trust them vnlesse the Church receiue them Theo. And doth your church nowe mislike the proceedings at Constance and Pisa which the church of Rome then and all other nations by the witnes of your nearest frinds approued and followed as right and syncere Phi. I refuse not the Councels Theo. But doth your Church allow them for general Phi. I think she doth Theo. Keepe your thoughts to your self my question is whether your Church accept them or no Phi. Shee doth not reiect them Theo. Answer directly Doth your Church embrace thē or no Phi. Shee doth Theo. You might haue sayd so rather what needed this circumquaque to no purpose Then I inferre the doctrine of your church litle more than eight skore yeres agoe was that a Councell might ouerrule and depose the Pope and the same Councel be called and kept without him if he colluded or refused This is proued as well by the deedes of the councels of Constance Pisa which are alreadie shewed as by their decrees which are extant to this day What was concluded at Pisa by generall assent I sayde before what the Councell of Constance resolued in the like case their words shall declare First this holy Synode of Constance lawfully congregated in the holy Ghost being a general councel and representing the catholike church militant hath power immediate from Christ the which power euery one of what state or dignity soeuer he be yea the Pope himself is bound to obey in those things that concerne the faith general reformatiō of the church of God in the head mēbers Again it declareth that whosoeuer of any cōdition state or dignitie yea though he be Pope shal stubburnly refuse to obey the statutes ordinances precepts which this sacred Synode or any other general coūcel lawfully gathered hath already made or shal hereafter make concerning the premisses or any their appertinents except hee repent hee shal be driuen to condigne satisfaction and dewly punished and if need be other helps and remedies of law and Iustice vsed Item this holy Synode ordereth defineth determineth and declareth that if our sayd Lord the Pope being required for vnities sake by this sacred Councel do refuse to forsake his Popedome or defer the renouncing thereof longer than he should as then so now and as now so then shal be counted by al Christian faithful men to be depriued of his Popedome and al obedience withdrawen from him And not herewith content after they had cited and expected him they proceeded first to his suspention and after to his depriuation in this wise Because it plainly appeareth to vs that our Lord Pope Iohn the 23. from the time that hee was chosen to the Popedome til this present hath il gouerned that office to the publike slaunder of himselfe the Church and with his damnable life filthie manners hath giuen and yet giueth to others an example of loose life and moreouer hath by playne Symonical contracts sold Cathedral churches Monasteries Priories and other Ecclesiastical benifices therefore by this our sentence we pronounce and decree the said Lord Pope Iohn worthie to bee suspended from al administration of the Popedome both spiritual and temporal and wee doe suspend him and by this writing forbid him the execution thereof And we declare that for and vpon the premisses as being notorious we ought mind to proceed to the final reiecting him from the Popedome Wherefore we streitly prohibite you and euery one of you by the tenor of these presents in vertue of your obedience vnder payne to be counted fauourers of this schisme whether you bee kings Cardinals Patriarkes Archbishops bishops or whatsoeuer spiritual or secular persons that you nor any of you directly or indirectly hereafter obey regard or assist the sayd Pope Iohn being iustly suspended by vs from al intermedling with the Popes function c. The very same causes they repeat when they depriue him adding that his departure from the Citie and sacred generall Councell of Constance closely by night at an vnseasonable houre in strange and dissembled apparel was vnlawful and scandalous to the Church the Councel as troubling and hindering the peace and vnion of the Church nourishing an inueterate schisme and swaruing from his vowe promise oth therfore say they the sacred general councel of Constance by this definitiue sentence here cōprised in writing pronounceth adiudgeth and declareth the saide Pope Iohn as vnworthie vnprofitable and hurtful to be remoued depriued and deposed from the Popedome and from al spiritual and temporal administration therof therwithal doth remoue depriue and depose him declaring al christians of what state or degree or condition soeuer they be to stand quiet and discharged from his obedience and the fidelitie and oth which they haue made to him Inhibiting al the faithful of Christ hereafter so much as to call him Pope being now deposed from his office or to cleaue to him or any way to obey him as Pope Phi. You repeate this at large that the simple might see how solemnely the Pope was deposed Theo. I doe in deede and you must thinke they looke for your answere Phi. How hastie you be when you haue a little
not carnal hir delights are not outward in flesh but inward in grace the prophet good mā had no leasure to thinke on your farms demeans reuenues This promise must be common to the faithfull not priuat to your cloisterers which in earthly things plied the bottle so fast that they suckt their nurces dry No remedy you must needs yeeld vs that christiā princes in respect of their office not of their riches haue receiued an expresse commandemēt from God to shew thēselues nurces to his church Now nurces by nature must prouide food for their infants defend them from dāger ergo kings queenes in the new testamēt are boūd to tēder the church of Christ by their princely power publik lawes to defend the same from infection of heresies inuasion of schisms all other apparent corruptions of faith good maners Who saith S. Aug. being in his right wits wil say to christiā kings take you no care who defēdeth or impugneth in your realms the church of christ your master Let it not pertain to you who lift to be religious or sacrilegious within your kingdōs And left he should seem skāt resolued in this opinion he biddeth opē defiāce to the Donatists in these words Cry thus if you dare let murders be punished let adulteries be punished let other degrees of lust sinne be punished only sacrileges that is cōtēpt of God his truth or his church we wil not haue punished by princes lawes And againe Will the Donatists though they were cōuinced of a sacrilegious schisme say that it belongeth not to the princes power to correct or punish such things Is it because such powers do not stretch to corrupt false religiō But christiā emperors persecute the Pagās doth that displease thē The works of the flesh Paul nūbreth these fornicatiō vncleanes strife dissentiō heresie drunkēnes such other What thinke these mē may the crime of idolatry be iustly reuēged by the magistrate wel if that like them not why cōfesse they that witches be rightly punished by the rigor of princes lawes will not agnise that heretikes schismatikes may bee repressed by the same seeing Paul doth rehearse them togither with other fruites of iniquity Will they reply that earthly powers are not to medle with such matters of religion To what end then beareth he the sword which is called Gods minister seruing to punish malefactors Certainly Princes c. If this learned father can not fray you from reuiuing the frantick error of the Donatists against the Princes power in matters of religion I trust you will somwhat reuerence the precept which our Sauior in his Gospell gaue the magistrate when he had the first sort of ghestes to be brought to the great supper the second to be forced Go sayth he forth into the wayes and hedges Compell thē to come in that mine house may be filled Wee take wayes sayth Austen for heresies hedges for schismes because wayes in this place signifie the diuersenes and hedges the peruersenes of opinions House God hath none but his house of prayer neither table beside the Lords table So that this seruant is expressely charged to Compel them from heresies and schismes to the confession of truth consent of prayer and communion of the Lordes table To performe this Christ hath left no seruant but the minister or the magistrat no meanes saue the word or the sword To compell heretiks and schismatiks neither is it possible for the preacher if he would nor lawful if he could he lacketh both meanes and leaue to constraine them His calling is with patience to teach not with violence to force to feede not to stryke to reproue with tongue not to subdue with hand Only the Prince beareth the sword which can and may compell recusants and therefore Bishops since they be flatly forbidden to Rayne must not meddle with the material sword being the chiefest part strength of an earthly kingdom neither ought any to draw the sword but he that holdeth it in Gods stead to reward and reuenge Ergo these wordes Compell them to come in that mine house may be filled were spoken to Christian Princes and are to them both a warrant and a charge to represse schismes and heresies with their Princely power which they receiued from aboue cheefly to maintaine Gods glorie by causing the bands of vnitie to be preserued in the Church and the rules of fayth obserued To the same purpose S. Austen in many places alleageth this parable The Lord himself sayth he willed the ghests first to be brought then to be forced What meaneth he by this Compell them to come when as he sayd of the first bring them If he ment they should be compelled by terror of miracles then might the first sort of ghests which saw many diuine wonders be rather thought to be forced but if by the power which the Church receaued at Gods hand in due time through the religion faith of kings those that are found in high wayes hedges that is in heresies schismes must be compelled to come let them not mislike that they be forced This cōmaunding by Princely power occasioneth many to be saued which though they be violently brought to the feast of the great householder and compelled to come yet being within they find cause to reioyce that they did enter for both sorts of commers as well violently forced as willingly brought the Lord fortold hath fulfilled Therfore let earthly princes serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ wherby mē may be forced to come to the great holy banquet yea by banishments other losses let their subiects begin to weigh with themselues what why they suffer learne to prefer the Scriptures which they read before the reportes and cauils of mē I thinke it superfluous to staie longer in confirming so manifest a truth He that is of God heareth the words of God he that impugneth them quarreleth not with Princes which yet is no small offence but with him by whom Princes raigne whose wisedom may not easily be neglected nor will resisted If you deny that this is the Princes charge to see the law of God fully executed his Sonne rightly serued his spouse safely nourced his house timely filled his enemies duely punished you must counteruaile that which Moses prescribed Dauid required Esay prophesied Paul witnessed Christ commaunded with some better sounder authority than theirs is If you grant so much we wil aske no more the Princes duety to God once cōfessed the rest shal quickly be concluded Phi. In a sense it is true that you say Theo. It is simply true that I say for in your owne iudgement may the Christian faith be freely permitted publikely receiued in kingdoms common wealthes Phi. No doubt Theo. May godly discipline be likewise planted and preserued amongest men and the disturbers and neglecters of it repressed and ordered
faith and which your Highnes for verie loue to trueth will make voide by your decree to the contrarie most glorious Emperour I therefore earnestly request and beseech your Maiestie by the Lord Iesus Christ the founder and guider of your kingdom that in this councell of Chalcedon which is presently to bee kept you will not suffer the faith to bee called in question which our blessed Fathers helde deliuered them from the Apostles neither permit such errours as haue beene long since condemned by them to bee nowe reuiued againe but that you will rather commaunde the faith concluded in the first Nicene Councell to stande in full force remouing all the latter deuises of Heretikes Which request Martian accomplished entering the Councell in his owne person and there by word of mouth absolutely forbidding the Bishops to defend or auouch any thing of the flesh and birth of our Sauiour otherwise thā the Nicene creed did containe To this councel of Chalcedon Leo willed by Martiā to subscribe returned his answere in this suppliant duetifull order Because I must by all meanes obey your sacred and religious will I haue set down my consent in writing to those Synodall constitutions which for the confirmation of the catholike faith and condemnation of heretiks pleased me very well What better witnesse can we produce that in causes Ecclesiasticall the Prince was the Popes superiour than this that for repealing the Councell of Ephesus for summoning the Councell o◠Chalcedon for charging those 600. and 30. fathers not to decline from the Nicene faith and requiring the Bishop of Rome to subscribe to their actes Martian commaundeth with authoritie Leo with al readinesse obeyeth yea that Leo beseecheth Martian to commaund and protesteth that for his part he did and must obey the Princes will in those cases We COMMAVND saith Iustinian the blessed ARCHBISHOPS of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem to receiue for ordering and instauling of Bishoppes onely that which this present Lawe doeth allow And taxing the charges of euery Bishoppe according to the yearly value of his Church If any man saith hee presume to take for installations or other duties aboue the rate which we prefixe we cōmand that he repay thrise so much of his own to the church or bishop in that sort grieued Neither doth he limit the Popes receites onely but also bindeth him with the rest by this general constitution If any man be made Bishop contrary to the forme which this law prescribeth the party confirmed shall loose his Bishopricke and the confirmer stand suspended from his Ecclesiasticall function one whole year and besides forfeit all his goods to the vse of his owne church mary when a bishop is accused of any thing that doth by the sacred canons or our lawes hinder his consecration if any man order him before diligent examination had as well he that did order him as he that is ordered shal for euer be depriued Thus coulde auncient Princes commaund in causes and correct for offences Ecclesiasticall euen the chiefest Patriarkes and namely the Bishop of Rome who now taketh on him to depose Princes and dispose kingdomes at his pleasure This illation is more than euident by the wordes of Gregorie the first who writing to the Emperour Mauritius vseth euery where this stile My Lord my most gracious Lord I your seruant and subiect to your commaundement and that not in temporall causes but in things concerning the rules and orders of Christes church as by the speciall circumstances will appeare Mauritius perceiuing that many coueted to be Clergi-men and Monkes some to preuent the daunger of their accomptes others to decline the burden of warfare made this decree that no souldier nor officer accountant to the Prince for any summes of mony should be receiued to sacred orders or Monastical profession charging the Bishoppe of Rome to giue notice thereof to the rest of his Prouince Gregorie though very much amased and grieued at the strangenesse of this law yet durst not resist or refuse the same but first with all diligence put the commaundement of Mauritius in execution and afterward fell to beseeching him to relent somewhat from the rigour of this hard and seuere prohibition My Lord hath giuen forth this edict saith he that no man entangled with seruice for the common weale should enter any ecclesiasticall function which I greatly praysed knowing that he which on the suddaine steppeth from a secular trade to a spiritual charge doth not meane to leaue but exchange the world Where it is added that none such should be suffered in any Monasterie this I maruailed at seeing the place doth not hinder the making of his accompts nor the paiment of his debts It followeth in the same law That no man once mustered as a souldier should cōuert from that calling and become a Monke Which constitution I confesse to my Lord did euen astonish mee because the way to heauen is thereby shut vp from many men and that now prohibited as vnlawfull which hath hitherto bin frankly permitted And what am I that speake to my Lord but dust and a verie worme Yet for that this Edict tendeth against God the creator of all thinges I can not conceale so much from my Lord. I therefore beseech you by the dreadful iudge that your holines wil either mitigate or abrogate this rigorus proclamation I for my part as subiect to your commaundement haue sent your precept into sundrie coastes yet because your Lawe doeth not stand with Gods glorie Lo by letters I haue acquainted my most glorious Lord there-withall So that I haue either way done my duetie which haue both yeelded obedience to my Prince and in Gods behalfe disburdened my conscience I your vnworthie suppliant waxe not thus bold either in respect I am a Bishop or in that I am your seruant by publike right but resting on your speciall and priuate fauour for that most gracious Soueraigne you were my Lord and master when as yet you were not Lord and chiefe ouer all If it be possible for a subiect to shew more submission and dutie to the Princes commaundement than the Bishop of Rome doth to Mauritius restraining all Bishops by his princely power from admission of such Monkes and election of such Clerkes as hee disabled let your Apologie bee had in some credit but if greater obedience than these wordes import neither Gods law doth exact nor Princes can expect I trust Gregories owne confession shal be taken without exception The like submission vpon like occasion is extant in other his Epistles as when Mauritius willed him to grow to some concord with Iohn Bishop of Cōstantinople to whom or from whom Gregorie would in no wise send or accept letters of communion societie because the saide Iohn entitled him vniuersall Patriarke I haue saith hee receiued letters from my vertuous Lord that I should be at peace with my brother and fellow Bishop Iohn In deed
to attend on his person Phi. And they be seruants as well as others Theo. It may be so neither do I denie that Princes must serue but whom Phi. The church so saith S. Hierom The nations kings that will not serue the church shall perish with that destruction which is prepared for the wicked Theo. You should shew that Princes which will not serue the Pope must loose their crownes Phi. Grant that Princes must serue the church for the rest we will do well enough Theo. First grant you that Popes were subiects seruants to christiā Princes 850. yeares after Christ which I haue proued you haue not answered and for seruice to be done by Princes to the church of Christ I will not long dissent Phi. Howe can they serue the church not serue the Pope which is head of the church Theo. To whom were these wordes spoken The kingdome that will not serue thee shall perish Phi. To the church Theo. To the whole church or to some speciall members of the church Phi. To the whole Theo. Then may the poorest member of Christs church euery Parish-priest chalenge to be the master of Princes to be serued at their hands as well as the Pope That which is spoken to all must be common to all Againe your owne answere ouerthroweth your own assertiō for this was spoken you say to the church but the Pope is not the church ergo this was not spoken to the Pope Phi. You go too far It was spoken to the whole but not ment of the whole Theo. Of whom then was it mēt Phi. Of the head which is a part of the whole The members of Christs church are not bound to serue one an other but all to serue the head In respect of their head they be seruants in respect of themselues they be brethren Theo. Is the head a part of the bodie Phi. Though the head can not properly be called a member of the bodie but the head yet in the whole are contained both the head and the members as in an Armie sometimes the Captaine and Souldiers and a kingdom compriseth both the king and his subiects Theo. Then where Esaie saith to Ierusalem kingdoms shall serue thee that is not euery member of thee but the chiefest and noblest part of thee which is the head that all the members serue Phi. And that head is the Pope Theo. When you proue the Pope to bee head of the church then call for Princes to doe him seruice In the meane time let Princes heare what Dauid saith Bee wise yee kinges serue the Lord and what our Sauiour alleadgeth Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onelie shalt thou serue At the name of Iesus euerie knee shall bowe of thinges in heauen and of thinges on earth Yea let not onely Princes but all the Angels of God worship him hee is the head to the church which is his bodie Your holy father must staie for his seruice till his headship may be found in some better records than in your bare supposals Phi. You infer this vpon my confession which I may change vppon better aduisement The nation kingdom that wil not serue thee shall perish No doubt these words bind Princes to do seruice to the church if not to the Pope Theo. You bound them before to serue the head and not the bodie now you wil haue them serue the bodie and not the head Well since there is no more hold in your word I will take surer hold of Esaies wordes The text which you bring is allegorical as the whole chap. besides is therefore you may draw no literal conclusion from these words no more than from wals gates brasse yron gold siluer Sunne Moone milk teats camels rammes firre trees pine-trees which also be reckned and promised to Ierusalem in this place Phi. Run you to allegories Theo. You cannot run from them vnlesse you run from this chapter read it ouer and see whether I faine or no. Phi. Shall then the promises of God be frustrate because the speaches bee figuratiue Theo. Did I saie they should No they bee greater and richer than mans tongue can expresse But if you presse the letter they bee false and absurde For example All the sheepe of Kedar shall bee gathered vnto thee the rammes of Nabaioth shall serue thee For brasse will I bring golde and for yron siluer for wood brasse and for stones yron Thou shalt haue no more Sunne to shine by daie neither shall the brightnesse of the Moone shine vnto thee These thinges bee not literally true Phi. I know they be not Theo. The whole chapter goeth after the same sort expressing by temporal and terrestrial things the blessings of God vpō his church which be celestial and eternal Phi. I mislike not this Theo. Euen so the seruice which kinges must do to the church is not corporall nor external such as seruing-men yeeld to their masters or subiectes to their superiours but an inward deuotion and an humble submission to the graces and mercies of God proposed offered in his church In effect kings must become religious faithful members of the church to serue God in holines righteousnes al the daies of their life To beleeue the word that is preached to frequent the sacraments that be ministred to fear the Lord that is honored in al aboue al this is the seruice which the church of Christ hartily wisheth earnestly seeketh at al mens hāds other solemnities with cap and knee shee neither liketh nor looketh for Phi. Kinges in respect of their calling must serue the church I meane with their princely power Theo. You say somwhat In deed kings in that they be kings haue to serue the Lord so as none cā do which are not kings For their power ought so to serue the Lord that by their power they which refuse to be subiect to the wil of God should be punished but this seruice you will not haue thē to busie with if happily they command against your liking you not only discharge thē of their seruice but of their kingdoms also Phi. Not if they serue the church as Esaie saith they should Theo. The seruice that is done to Christ the church imbraceth as done to hir self because she requireth no more but that Christ her Lord master be serued and yet the seruice which I nowe speake of namely to preserue subiects in godlines quietnes with wholsome lawes to fraie men from vices heresies is done to Christ not in respect of himselfe but of his church concerneth the profit welfare of the whole church euery mēber thereof Phi. This is not to serue but to rule the church Theo. Kings as kings that is as publike Magistrates can not serue the church but by defending her members repressing her enemies this is better seruice to God his church than that which
them all obedience with armed violence to take their swords from them but thereof more hereafter In the meane time your argument is very foolish Priestes must not deliuer the Sacramentes but on such conditions as God hath limited ergo Priests be superiour to Princes You might haue concluded ergo God is superiour to them both in that he prescribeth how the one shal deliuer the other take the Seales of his grace but for the Priest no such illation can be made For were you Porter in any Princes palace and commaunded that no man Noble nor other shoulde enter the Court with weapon woulde you thence conclude your selfe superiour to all the Nobles and counsellours of the Land because you might not suffer thē to come within the gates except they first lay their swords aside or would you rather excuse your selfe that the Princes precept being streit and you a seruaunt you could not choose but do your dutie and put them in minde of your Lord and masters pleasure Phi. Our case is not like The. You say truth You haue not so much reason to make Priestes superiour to Princes as this Officer hath to prefer himselfe before all other persons Princes haue soueraign power ouer the goods liues bodies of Priestes Nobles haue not ouer the meanest attendant in the Princes Court Princes must be obeyed or endured with meekenesse and reuerence offer they neuer so hard dealing to their Preachers and Pastours That submission no man oweth to any subiect be he neuer so Noble And therefore euerie seruant in the Princes house hath better cause to aduance himselfe before al the Nobles of the Realme than you haue to set the Priest aboue the Prince whom God himselfe hath pronounced superiour to the Priestes and to whom he will haue euerie soule bee they Monkes Priestes or Bishoppes to be subiect with al submission duetie Much lesse is this a warrant for you to depose Princes and to pursue them with armes against the preceptes of God against the generall and continuall obedience and order of Christs Church as you shal perceiue in place where for this present go on with your absurd lies I shoulde haue said absurdities Phi. It derogateth from Christes Priesthood which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie Theo. Call you this a derogation from Christes Priesthood if the Pope may not tread Princes vnder his feet Your Seminaries must needes be famous that coine vs such conclusions Phi. Neuer mocke at our Seminaries you shall finde them too well furnished for your stoare Theo. So wee thinke your learning is so strange it passeth our intelligence Wee fooles conceiue not how these thinges hang togither For first what meane you by this The Priesthood of Christ in his owne person is aboue his kingly dignitie He is king of glorie in that he is the sonne of God can you name any thing in Christ that is aboue his diuine dignitie Your doctrine is verie curious if it be not dangerous The glorie of the sonne of God as hee is owner and ruler of all thinges in heauen and earth hath no title nor name aboue it As a Priest he purged our sinnes in humilitie as a king hee nowe doeth and euer shall raigne in the highest degree of celestiall and euerlasting glorie His Priesthood washed our vncleannesse in this life His kingdome placeth and preserueth men and Angels in perfect and eternall blisse If you speake this in respect of vs that the Priesthood of Christ which washeth our sinnes and saueth vs from the wrath to come is more comfortable and accceptable to our weake consciences by reason of our guiltinesse and daily transgressions than the power wherewith hee subdueth his enemies besides the straungenesse of your speach that his Priestood should bee aboue his kinglie dignitie in his owne person note the losenesse of your argument The Priesthood of Christ in fauour and mercie to vs ward is aboue his power ergo the Prince must be subiect to the Pope May not we much rather conclude Christ cōpelleth punisheth as a king not as a Priest ergo power to commaund punish belongeth to the kingdom not to the Priesthood that is to the Magistrate not to the minister Phi. It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holie communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as manie partes not communicant one with an other nor holding one of an other as there be worldlie kingdoms differing by Customs Lawes manners ech from other which is of much pernicious sequele and against the verie natiue quality of the most perfect coniunction society vnitie and intercourse of the whole Church euery Prouince and Person thereof togither Theo. It is a most pernicious fansie to thinke the communion of Christes Church dependeth vpon the Popes person or regimēt and that diuerse nations and countries differing by customes lawes maners so they hold one the same rule of faith in the band of peace can not be parts of the Catholike Church communicant one with an other perfectly vnited in spirite and truth ech to other And fie on your follies that racke your Creede rob Christ of his honor and the Church of all her comfort and securitie whiles you make the vnitie and societie of Christes members to consist in obedience to the Bishop of Rome and not in coherence with the sonne of God The communion of Saintes and neere dependaunce of the Godly ech of other and all of their heade standeth not of externall rites customes and manners as you woulde fashion out a Church obseruing the Popes Canons and deseruing his pardones as his deuote and zealous children but in beleeuing the same trueth tasting of the same grace resting on the same hope calling on the same God reioycing in the same spirite whereby they bee sealed sanctified and preserued against the daie of redemption And why may not Christians in all kingdomes countries haue this communion and fellowshippe though they lacke your holy fathers beads blessinges and such like bables To what ende you alleadge S. Augustine in that place which you quote we cannot so much as coniecture you must speake plainly what you would haue we be not bounde to make search for your meaning As for the communion of the Catholike Church it is not broken by the varietie and diuersitie of rites customes Lawes and fashions which many places and Countries haue different ech from others except they be repugnant to faith or good manners as S. Augustine largely debateth in his epistle to Ianuarius and Irineus whē the bishop of Rome would haue cut the East Churches from the communion of the West for obseruing Easter after an other maner order than their brethrē did sharpely reproued him and shewed him that Polycarpus and Anicetus dissenting in the same case Communionem
life Theo. The necessities of this life are nourishment and rayment the rest are superflâ—ities When wee haue foode and apparel sayth the Apostle let vs bee therewith content whatsoeuer is aboue is needlesse and noysome Our Sauiour willing his not to bee carefull for their life expresseth all thinges that bee needefull for this present life Take no thought saying what shall wee eate what shall wee drinke or wherewith shall wee bee clothed Your heauenly Father knoweth that you haue neede of these thinges These thinges wee neede and therefore are they promised other thinges are not promised and therefore we neede them not If Princes were first ordained of God for those thinges onely which are needefull to maintaine this temporall life for thinges superfluous are besides the promise and without the protection of GOD the power and charge of Princes shoulde consist in meates drinkes and apparell and Princes haue no farther care of their people than they haue of their houndes and Horses to see them well fedde and smoothe kept which is a very wicked and brutish opinion Phi. They are besides to maintaine peace and quietnes among their subiects Theo. You might haue ioyned godlines and honestie therewithall as S. Paul doeth and then had you done well I exhort sayth hee that prayers and supplications be made for Kings for all that are in authoritie that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie Prayers must bee made for kinges that they may discharge their duties according to Gods ordinance which is that their subiects by their helpe and meanes may leade an honest godly and quiet life godlinesse and honestie being the chiefest endes of our praiers and effectes of their powers For God hath not put the goodes landes bodies and liues of men into Princes handes to cloath their backes and fill their bellies but with praise to prouoke those that be willing to driue those that be not willing with punishments to imbrace pietie towards God sobrietie towardes themselues and charitie towardes their neighbours This you may learne by the regiment of euery priuate familie which is both a part and a paterne of the common-wealth Al parents and masters haue a farther charge ouer their children and seruantes than to see them defended froÌ„ hunger and colde A wicked father is hee that feedeth and cloatheth and nourâ—ereth not his children Ye fathers saith S. Paul bring vp your children in the instruction and information of the Lord. Come children saith Dauid harken vnto me I will teach you the feare of the Lord. Moses admonishing the whole people of the Iewes as it were speaking to euery particular maÌ„ Take heed saith he to thy selfe that thou forget not the thinges which thine eyes haue seene and that they depart not out of thine heart all the dayes of thy life but teach them thy sonnes and thy sonnes sonnes and so God himselfe said to Moses Gather mee the people togither and I will cause them to heare my words that they may learne to feare me all the dayes that they shall liue vpon the earth and that they may teach their children This diligence God coÌ„mended and rewarded in Abraham as the best part of a fathers duetie I know him saith God that hee will commaund his sonnes and his houshold after him that they keepe the waie of the Lord to do righteousnes and iudgement that the Lord may bring vpon Abraham that good which he hath spoken vnto him If priuate men be bound to traine vp their families in the feare of God and loue of vertue much more are Princes the publike fathers of their countries and exalted to farre greater and higher authoritie by Gods ordinance than fathers or masters I say much more are they in coÌ„science charged by calling licenced to frame their subiectes to the true seruice of God right obedience of his law which be thinges not temporal but spiritual This king Dauid protesteth and promiseth vnto God he will doe in his kingdom Him that priuilie slaundereth his neighbour will I destroy Mine eyes shall be to the faithfull of the Land that they may dwell with mee hee that walketh in a perfect way he shal serue me There shall no deceitful or proude person dwell within mine house hee that telleth lies shall not remaine in my sight Betimes will I destroy all the wicked of the Land that I may cut off al the workers of iniquitie from the citie of the Lord. This christian Princes as you heard before made not onely a part but the chiefest part of their duetie The true religion of God and honest conuersation euen of Priests themselues is our chiefest care saith Iustinian And so Valentinian Theodosius The search of true religion we finde to be the chiefest care of the Imperiall Maiestie With whom S. Austen agreeth defending Felix a catholike Bishop against the Donatists for that he was cleared at a temporall bar by the Princes commandement of such crimes as were obiected to him notwithstanding they were ecclesiasticall One of you saith a Bishop ought not to be cleared at the Proconsuls bar as though he sought it not rather the Emperour commanded that kinde of trial to be had to whose charge that matter did most pertaine and whereof the Prince was to render an account to God Of this mind were the Bishops of Rome themselues in former ages Eleutherius not long after Christ wrote to Lucius king of this realm amongst other things in this wise You are Gods Vicar in that kingdom The natioÌ„s people of Britanny are yours whom you ought to gather bring vnto concord peace vnto the faith law of Christ vnto his holy Church to nourish maintaine protect rule alwaies to defende from iniuries mischiefs froÌ„ enemies A king you shal be whiles you rule wel which except you do you shal be vnworthy the name of a king loose it which God forbid So Pope Iohn made answere to Pipin Charles Illos decet vocari Reges qui vigilaÌ„ter defendunt regunt ecclesiam Dei populum eius imitati Regem Psalmographum dicentem non habitabit in medio domus meae qui facit superbiam c. We must cal those kings which doe carefully defend rule the church of God his people after the example of king Dauid in his Psalmes a proude man shall not dwel in mine house This Gregory the great earnestly exhorted Edelberth vnto the first that was christened of the Saxon kings in this Land For this cause the almightie God bringeth good Princes to the regiment of his people that by them hee may bestow the gifts of his mercy vpon al that are vnder theÌ„ Therfore glorious son the grace which you haue obtained at Gods hands keepe with a careful minde hasten to extend the faith of Christ in the nations vnder you Increase the zeale of your vprightnes to
Why then shoulde the loose life or false doctrine of some Bishops preiudice others either in the same office with them or in the same place before and after them since the things bee needefull though the men be sinâ—ull The chaire is not the worse though the Bishoppe may erre But you stande in contention with vs that the Bishoppe of Rome can not erre and nowe you say hee may erre without preiudice to his office and Seate which wee graunt For his charge to teach and power to bind common to him with all Bishoppes is not abolished nor abated though some did or hereafter should abuse it In the meane time this shaketh the Popes Tribunall which you giue him ouer the whole Church For if he may erre in fayth which you confesse then can he not be supreme iudge of all others in matters of fayth lest the whole church should bee bound to forsake her faith which shee may not vppon one erroneous iudgement of his which is possible and easte to happen Phi. Not possible Popes may erre personally but not iudicially that is they may erre in person vnderstanding priuate doctrine or writings but they neither can nor euer shall iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshoode or heresie against the Catholike faith in their Consistories Courts Councels Decrees Deliberations or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies douts or questions of fayth as shall bee proposed vnto them because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren Theo. What prayer or promise of Christ is it that you speake of Phi. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Theo. Are you in your fiue wittes to make such constructions of Christes wordes Phi. Why so Theo. Where lyeth faith in a mans heart mouth or hands Phi. What a wise question that is aske it not for very shame Theo. Nay answere it with shame enough Or if you will not S. Paul will Corde creditur we beleeue with the heart sayth he and confesse with the mouth So that if faith be not in our lippes much lesse in our fingers Phi. Who euer doubted of that Theo. Then is there no doubt but your deprauing the prayer and promise of Christ will soone bee perceiued of al men For if Christ prayed for Peter and as you racke it for his successours that their fayth shoulde not fayle Ergo the true faith of Christ must alwayes be kept in their hearts though their mouthes faile as Peters did when hee denyed his master with his lippes whom in hart he knewe to bee the sonne of the liuing God Now you turne it cleane contrarie You graunt the Popes heart may fall from faith to infidelitie and heresie but his mouth you defend shal be kept from pronouncing it as if Christ had prayed not for Peters hart where his faith remained but for Peters mouth which failed thrise before the cocke crewe notwithstanding his masters prayer and promise that very night This is absurd enough and yet the rest is more absurd when you graunt the Pope may erre in person that is both with heart and mouth but if hee once get on his robes and ascend his Tribunall he can not erre As if Christ had prayed not for the men but for the walles neither for the Persons but for the Places which is direct against the words of our sauiour For he sayth not I haue prayed for thy Tribunals Courtes and Consistories that they shall not erre but I haue prayed for thee noting his person that thy faith that is the perswasion of thine heart beleeuing and trusting in me shall not vtterly faile but the sparkles of my grace remaining in thee shall renue thee by repentance Christ prayed for the person not for the place How then can you say that the Person may erre but not the place Phi. The Person shall bee stroken with feare as was Vigilius or preuented by death as was Anastasius that hee shall not be able to accomplish his wicked intent in open place Theo. Call you that the prayer of Christ for the Popes fayth or the plague of God vpon him for his infidelitie Phi. Cal it what you will God will not suffer him to giue definitiue sentence for heresie against the faith Theo. Shew vs the warrant that God will not suffer it and wee are answered Phi. The promise of our sauiour that Peters faith should not faâ—le Theo. Then this you make to be the effect of Christes woordes I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth shall not fayle that is notwithstanding my prayer for thee thy successours may be heretikes idolaters Apostataes and ruÌ„negates from me but I wil strike them with feare or peruert them with death that they shall not in open Court by definitiue sentence iniect â—y Church Are you not religious interpreters of the Scriptures when you delude them and interlace them with such commentaries Phi. Caiphas by priuilege of his office prophesied right of Christ though according to his own knowledge and faith he knew not Christ. And why may not the Pope haue the like priuilege Theo. Balaams Asse reproued the madnes of his master Why should not the Popes Asse haue the like priuilege Phi. You scoffe at our reasons you refell them not Theo. They neede no better refutation For out of a particular fact that is rare and vncertaine you conclude a generall and constant Rule God vsed the mouth of Caiphas the high Priest without his meaning to declare the necessitie and vtilitie of Christes death Hence you would inferre that no high Priest could erre in iudgement and consequently not the Pope as being belike successour to Caiphas that put Christ to death By the same cuÌ„ning you may conclude God vsed Balaams mouth against Balaams will to blesse Israel therefore no false Prophet can haue a lying spirit in his mouth Or God stirred vp the spirit of Daniel when he was a very child to coÌ„uince the two iudges of their vnrighteous proceeding against Susanna therefore children cannot want the spirit of direction in iudgement Or Pilats wife perceaued by her dreames that Christ was innocent therefore weomens dreames are alwayes true Phi. These illations be very foolish Theo. Yours is scant so good For in your example God ouerruled the hie-Priests mouth in such sort that in giuing the Iewes wicked and haynous counsel to kill the sonne of God his words receaued a double sense One cruel bloudie perswading them to murder the author of that new doctrine for feare least the Romanes should take it as an occasion to destroy the whole nation which was Caiphas mind and purpose The other confessing that his death should saue the people from destruction which declareth the vertue and force of his Passion Which he neither ment nor knew but God so tempered his tongue that in writing his furious malice against Christ his wordes stood indifferent for both constructions
that from thence foorth he may declare all his subiectes to be discharged of their fealtie towardes him and giue vp his Land to be possessed by Catholiks which catholiks without all contradiction when they haue driuen out the heretiks shall haue and hold the same and so preserue it in puritie of faith the interest and right of the chiefe Lord euer remaining safe whole so that himselfe giue no impediment to the execution of this Decree And the same law to take place in such also as be Soueraigne Lords and haue no superiours Theo. Our question is not what numbers the Pope hath gathered nor what Decrees hee hath made to settle and assure his kingdom the iudgementes of God are righteous and meruelous as well against Princes as priuate men But we demaund what commission the Pope and his Prelates whom God appointed to be subiect to Princes had to determine thus against Princes to take both their crownes and Realmes from them when they listed to excommunicate them The number of Persons was aboue twelue hundred as you crake Bishops and other Prelates but will it please you to remember that eight hundred of them were no Bishops but Priors conuentuall their substitutes euen dreaming Monkes and begging Friers that then began to pester the world and had no right to sit in Councels By such creatures of his owne making and at his sole disposing it was easie for your Father to ouerrule all the Bishops of the worlde if they would haue saide nay such cunning deuises the Bishop of Rome hath to call and frame councels to his purpose And what if no such thing were there decreed but onely proposed and consulted on and your skill nowe serueth you to alleage it as a most renowmed decree and your adherentes deceiue the people with these thinges as fully concluded in that Councell Looke to the verie same place whence you tooke the number of them that were present and the very next wordes and see whether it be not so Venere saith Platina multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit Many thinges were debated in that councell but nothing coulde plainely bee decided by reason the Pope suddainly departing to compose some tumults then suddainly risen died by the way And so your famous generall councell of Laterane is come to a swarme of hungrie Friers consulting how to defeate Princes of their temporall Dominions and lay them open to the spoile but not concluding as being preuented by the Popes hastned and inopined death Phi. We can declare and plainely deduce all that hath beene saide in the premises from holy Scriptures warrant of antiquitie The. So had you need For if no No man may sunder that which God hath ioyned togither much lesse may you displace that which God hath ordained or so much as resist the sword which he hath commaunded to be honoured and obeyed To discharge your selues from the ordinance of God from the preceptes of Christ and doctrine of his holie spirit you must not bring vs Popes Schoolemen and Fiers the eldest of theÌ„ a 1000. yeares after Christ children will not be deceiued with such â—ables you must proue your selues assoiled froÌ„ obedience to Princes when the Pope list to giue you leaue by the selfe same heauenly records by which we proue Popes and all others to be subiect to them The worde of God bindeth you to obey them the wordes of men can not loose you Goe therefore directly and soundly to worke or else you do but increase your sinne Phi. I will and you shall see it apparantly proued by the olde and new Testament and by the examples of the primatiue church that Princes for heresie and such like crimes may be lawfully deposed by Priests Theo. This is it which we require you to proue but first you confesse that Princes haue their power from God and that they may chalenge honour subiection and tribute of all that be within their Realmes not onely by the consent of men but by Gods institution and ordinance Phi. They be but humane creatures Theo. How shoulde men be more then humane creatures but their power is of God S. Paul speaking of them saith There is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God So before him saide the wisedom of God By me kinges raigne Rule therefore is giuen them of the Lord and power by the most high They be Gods ministers for the wealth of him that doeth well and to take vengeance on him that doeth euil As their power is from God so the commaundemâ—nt of God is verie plaine that we should honour them Feare God honour the king saith S. Peter and Solomon expressing the same with a more effectual worde Feare saith hee the Lord and the king Yea such is the honour that God hath allowed them that we may neither open our lips bende our heats nor lift vp our handes against them Thou shalt not speake euil of the Ruler of thy people curse not the king no not in thy thought much lesse then may we resist them Let euerie soule be subiect saith the Apostle to the higher powers Whosoeuer resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God and they that resist shal receiue to themselues iudgement You must be subiect not onely because of wrath but also for conscience sake And so S. Peter Submit your selues vnto euery humane creature or ordinance vnto the king as surpassing the rest For so is the will of God And threatning an heauie iudgement hee sayth chiefly to them that despise gouermeÌ„t and feare not to speake euil of such as are in authoritie S. Iude noteth wicked and fleshly teachers for the same fault with the very same wordes They despise gouernment and speake euill of them that are in authority Of this subiection due vnto Princes the tribute which we paie them is by S. Pauls iudgement the very signe and earnest You must be subiect For for this cause pay ye also tribute And therefore the Lord himselfe when he charged all men to giue vnto Caesar that which was Cesars ment that honour subiection and tribute which by Gods law is due vnto Caesar. For that is Caesars which God by his word hath allotted vnto Caesar that no mortall man may withhold from Caesar since the Sonne of God hath allowed it vnto Caesar. Phi. All this we knowe Theo. All this if you keepe as well as know you shall offend the lesse Phi. Honour subiection and tribute must be giuen to Caesar so long as Caesar is Caesar but if Caesar bee no longer Caesar then these thinges are not due to him Theo. What meane you by this so long as Caesar is Caesar Phi. That is vntil he be lawfully depriued of his Empire Theo. Then Caesar shall haue these thinges so long as you list to suffer him to be Caesar but if you once denounce him
a Prince you shall neuer shewe Omitte Abimelech whom Saul slewe for fauouring Dauid and Zachariah whom king Ioash commaunded to bee stoned not remembring the kindnes of Ioida his father that saued him aliue and set him in his kingdome Did not Salomon cast out Abiathar from being high Priest because hee tooke part with Adoniah his elder brother Where by your conclusion Salomon shoulde haue beene deposed because the high Priest thought Adoniahs right to the Crowne to bee better than Salomons Wee shewe you where the Prince remoued the Priest from his honour and primacie but you can not shewe vs that euer Priest remooued Prince in that Common wealth from his royal dignitie and yet was there then as vrgent and as euident cause to do it as you can nowe or doe pretend For all the kings of Israel were open Idolaters Iehu himselfe not excepted and yet not one of them deposed by Priest or Prophet so long as their kingdome stoode which was 253. yeeres The greater part of the kinges of Iudah euen foureteene of them were likewise plaine Idolaters as Salomon Roboam Abiam Ioram Ahaziah Ioash Amazias Ahaz Manasses Amon Ioachaz Eliakim Ioacim Zedechias and not a Priest or Prophete in Iudah so much as offered to displace or resist one of them If by Gods Lawe as you suppose the Priestes were superiour Iudges to punish such offences euen in princes howe can you excuse the high Priest and the rest to whom that charge was committed for not executing that power which God gaue them vpon these wicked and Idolatrous Princes Phi. The kinges were too mightie for them to remoue Theo. That happilie might hinder the effect but not the attempt of their iudgement We doe not obiect that they were vnable but that they neuer made the onset or offer to doe it Phi. The crueltie of those kinges caused them to forbeare Theo. That is not true Many Priests and Prophetes gaue their liues for reproouing them and more it coulde not cost to depose them Againe Manasses was caried captiue out of his Realme in the midst of his furious Idolatrie and yet in his absence and miserie no man stirred against him but his kingdome was reserued for him till hee was released out of prison and sent backe from Babylon It was therefore not for feare of death but for regard of duetie that the zealous Priests and Prophetes submitted their persons to those wicked Princes whose Idolatrie they reproued with the losse of their liues Phi. This coâ—dition was afterwarde to bee imâ—lied in the receiuing of any king ouer the people of God and true beleeuers for euer videlicet that they should not reduce their people by force or otherwise from the faith of their forefathers and the religion and holy ceremonies thereof receiued at the hands of Gods Priests and none other Insinuating that obseâ—uing these precepts and conditions hee and his sonne after him might long reigne Otherwise as by the practise of their deposition in the bookes and tyme of the kinges it afterward â—ppeareth whereof we haue set downe some examples before the Prophets and Pristes that annointed them of no other condition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Theo. God would haue the more care to be taken in choosing a king because it was too late to refuse him when he was once chosen But I trust your selfe will not say that all those conditions which God requireth in a king are forfeitures of his Crowne if he transgresse in any of them GOD in expresse woordes and in the very same place chargeth that the king shall not haue many wiues nor many horses nor abundaunce of golde nor siluer nor lift his heart vp aboue his brethren and thinke you that if a king did offend in any of these he was to bee deposed The precept which your selfe alleage doth not onely concerne the publike sufferance of true religion but the perfect obseruance of euery point that was contained in the lawe of God Hee shall read in the booke of the Lawe all the dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to obserue all the woordes of this Lawe and these statutes to doe them And trowe you the breach of any point of Gods Lawe was depriuation to the king You must bee voyde of all sense if you defend these thinges and yet these bee conditions or as you delight to call them couenants which God exacteth in him that shall bee king ouer his elect and peculiar people The knitting vppe of your matter is like the rest of your discourse The Prophetes and Priestes you say that annointed them of no other coâ—dition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his true worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like It is vtterly vntrue that euer Priest or Prophete deposed Prince in the common wealthes of Israel or Iudah There were as the Scripture testifieth of the kinges of Israel nineteene and fourteene of the kinges of Iuda that brake with their Lorde and sell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Shewe that one of them was depriued by any Priest or Prophete and take the whole if you can not leaue false supposing and vaine craking and tell on your tale Phi. And this it was in the old law But now in the new Testament and in the time of Christs spirituall kingdome in the Church Priests haue much more soueraigne authoritie and Princes farre more strict charge to obay loue and cherish the Church Theo. What was in the olde Lawe you haue sayd and wee haue seene and except I bee deceiued you found there very litle for your purpose In the newe Testament I can assure you you will find lesse Where you say that Priests now in the Church haue much more soueraigne authoritie than Priests had in the law of Moses the comparing of their authorities is very superfluous Haue they more or lesse it is nothing to this question Authoritie to depose Princes they neither then had nor nowe haue which is it that you seeke for In what sort Princes are bound to loue cherish and obey the Church was declared before and neede not nowe bee repeated But the Church is neither charged nor licenced by Christ to take Princes Crownes from them Subiection is rather enioyned her in earthly thinges vnto Princes which can not stand with your thrusting them from their thrones vnlesse you take rebellion to be subiection which were very strange And depriuing them of their right is worse than rebelling against theÌ„ to defend your right which yet is not tolerable For he that resisteth them shall receiue iudgement Phi. In the Church without fayle is the supereminent power of Christes
where spirit is but not flesh are yet in man conioyned in person and neuerthelesse so distinct in faculties and operations that the flesh hath her actions peculiar and the soule hers but not without all subalteration or dependaunce Where we see euidently that in case the operations of the bodie be contrarie to the ende weale and iust desires of the soule the spirite may and must commaunde ouerrule and chastice the bodie and as superiour appointeth fasting and other aâ—flictions though with some detriment to the flesh commaunding the eyes not to see the tongue not to speake and so foorth So likewise the power politicall hath her Princes Lawes Tribunalles and the spiritual her Prelats Canons Councels iudgements and these when the Princes are Pagans wholy separate but in christian Common-wealthes ioyned though not confounded nor yet the spirituall turned into the temporall or subiect by peruerse order as it is now in England to the same but the ciuil which in deede is the inferiour subordinate and in some cases subiect to the ecclesiasticall though so long as the temporall State is no hinderaunce to eternall felicitie and the glorie of Christs kingdome the other intermedleth not with her actions but alloweth defendeth honoureth and in particular Common-wealthes obeyeth the same Theo. For you to flie soaring about with comparisons and applications of your owne making is to small purpose Similitudes haue no force farther than the Author that first vsed them doth direct them and vrge them S. Gregorie Bishop of Nazianzun hauing occasion in a Sermon that hee made before the Emperour to intreate the Prince to pardon a fault committed by the people after hee had taught the subiectes their duetie to the Magistrate turned his speech to the Prince with these wordes amongest other Will you admit then my free speech The law of Christ hath committed or subiected you to my power and to my pulpit for we rule also and that which is a more excellent and perfect regiment Or should the spirit in perfection and excellencie giue place to the flesh and heauenly thinges to earthly You will I know take my freedom of speech in good part You are a sheepe of my fould a lambe or weanling of the great sheepheardes Nazianzene maketh not your comparison that the Priest hath the same power ouer the prince which the soule hath ouer the body It is your owne it is not his hee calleth the things which are committed to the Preachers charge spirituall and heauenly and consequently more excellent and perfect than the bodilie earthly things which Princes haue in their power farther he vrgeth not this comparison and this we confesse to be most true Phi. But S. Gregorie sayth to the Emperour The law of Christ hath subiected you to my power and to my Tribunall Theo. I might refuse that translation the wordes are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth signifie not onely to subiect but also to commit as a pledge to bee kept by an other man and in that respect I might well defende this to bee the right interpretation of S. Gregories wordes The lawe of Christ hath committed you to my charge but because the worde hath both significations I receiue either and affirme neither to make for your corporall correcting of Princes Sainct Gregorie doeth plainely lay foorth his owne meaning first by the finall intent for the which hee vsed all this preface next by the rest of the wordes which he addeth to expounde and expresse his minde His requeste to the Emperour was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to beare with the bouldnesse of his speeche in making requeste for his brethren And to shewe the Emperour that heerein hee didde no more than Christ hadde licenced euerie Preacher to doe hee bringeth this reason The Lawe of Christ hath bounde Princes bee they neuer so great to heare the Preacher and to submit them-selues to this place where I stand which was the pulpitte and not the Consistorie For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church did precisely signifie the place where the Preacher stoode when he taught And to that ende hee addeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You are a sheepe of my flocke that is sacred and so are you and a weanling of the great sheepheards and therefore bound to heare my voyce whom the great shepheard hath charged with the feeding of his flocke And so he proceedeth very fatherly and pithily not to commaund or require but to perswade and intreat the Prince to be gratious to his subiects and to imitate the example of God the greatest and mightiest Prince that is These be Christian directions and lawfull meanes to put Princes in minde of their dueties which we allow and receiue Your deposing them and arming their subiects vnder a colour of your Episcopall authoritie to rebel against theÌ„ and to take their scepters from them was farre from Nazianzenes mynde and mouth you doe but abuse his eloquent similitudes to beautifie your pestilent conspiracies and that you may see by the very wordes following where he saith to the Emperour Thou raignest together with Christ thou rulest together with him thy sword is from him thou art the image of God Hee that confessed the Prince to hold his sworde from Christ and with Christ neuer craked as you conceiue that hee had power to take the Princes sword from him yea rather hee acknowledged himselfe amongst the rest to bee subiect to the Prince though he were a Bishoppe Let vs sayth he submit our selues to God to eche other and to the Rulers of the earth To God in all thinges eche to other in brotherly loue to Princes for the conseruation of good order For this is one of the Lawes amongs vs that be Christians and the same prayse worthie and most excellently ordered by the holy Ghost that as seruaunts obey their masters and women their husbands and the Church Christ and the Disciples their Pastors and Teachers so wee should bee subiect to all superiour Powers not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Phi. You will not denie but S. Gregorie sayth Wee haue a greater and perfecter regiment than yours speaking euen to the Prince himselfe Theo. So Preachers haue They gouerne the soules of men and dispence the mysteries of God where as Princes are set to rule the bodies of their subiects and to dispose the things of this life And therefore if the fruites and effects of their callings be compared the Preachers passeth the Princes by many degrees of perfection and excellencie God giuing earthly foode and peace by the prince but heauenly grace and life by the woorde and sacraments which wee receiue from the mouthes and handes of his messengers Mary if you compare their persons or powers to commaunde and compell by corporall punishments of which wee dispute Preachers are seruants to their brethren Princes are Lordes ouer them Preachers may reprooue and threaten Princes may sease the goods
Caluinistes furie phrensie mutinie I know not what You may pursue depose murther Princes when the Bishop of Rome biddeth you that without breach of dutie law or cōscience to God or man as you vaunt though neither life nor limme of yours be touched wee may not so much as beseech Princes that we may be vsed like subiects not like slaues like men not like beasts that we may bee conuented by lawes before iudges not murthered in corners by inquisitours wee may not so much as hide our heades nor pull our neckes out of the greedie iawes of that Romish wolfe but the fome of your vncleane mouth is ready to call vs by al the names you can deuise Howbeit looke well to your selues it is not enough for you to haue lawes of your owne making to licence you to beare armes against your Prince you must haue Gods law for your warrant or else you come within the compasse of heinous and horrible rebellion For you doe not defend your selues but impugne your Prince you seeke not the freedom of your religion but the subuersion of other mens estates you do not take armes that your condition may be tolerable but that her highnes shoulde be no Prince you saue not your own liues but intend her death These shamefull and manifest treasons against the law of God nature and nations you smooth with a few faint colours and publish them to the whole world for iust honorable and godly warres But deceiue not your selues the breath of your mouthes may not ouerbeare the lawes of God states of men You must shew some better warrant than the Popes decrees or else your rising in armes against your Prince though the Bishoppe of Rome back and abet you with all his Buls and Decretals is an vnlawful irreligious and wicked rebellion Phi. Whosoeuer seeketh not after the Lord God of Israell let him bee slaine saide king Asa admonished by Azaria the Prophet from the highest to the lowest without exception And all the people and many that followed him and fled to him out of Israel from the schisme there did sweare and vowe them-selues in the quarrell of the God of their forefathers And they prospered and deposed Queene Maáchah Mother to Asa for Apostasie and for worshipping the venereous God called Priapus Theo. Doth the example of king Asa forcing his Subiectes with an othe and vnder paine of death to seeke after the Lorde God of Israel serue you to proue that Subiectes may assault their king and oppresse him with armes Will this goe for a reason with you The Magistrate may vse the sworde and put offendours to death ergo the Subiect may vse the same and that against his Prince Sure if you make such collections wee shall mistrust rebellion hath so possessed your braynes that reason hath no place in you Phi. This example proueth that heretikes may be deposed and put to death Theo. But by whom By the Prince or the people Phi. The king I grant was the doer Theo. Then seeke farther for your conspiracies against kinges this example will do you no good Phi. The people that fledde to him out of Israel from the schisme there did sweare and vowe themselues in the same quarrell with the king of Iudah Theo. The straungers that fledde out of Israell for their conscience sake tooke an oth to serue the same God but not to beare armes against their owne countrie Phi. They prospered and deposed Queene Maáchah mother to Asa for Apostasie and for worshipping the venereous God Priapus Theo. You inlarge the number where you should not which by your leaue is a plaine corruption of the Scripture The text is And king Asa deposed Maáchah his mother from her regēcie because she had made an idoll And againe not they but he deposed Maáchah his mother from her estate because she had made an idol The Queene mother was remoued from her honor dignitie by the king her sonne for her idolatrie but Asa did not put her to death though that were the summe of the oth which the king and the rest tooke and he that did this deede was the true king of Iudah and in full possession of the crowne many yeares before and suffered his mother not in her owne right but of reuerence curtesie towards her to inioy some part of her former degree and dignitie from the which he lawfully might and worthily did put her when shee fell to erecting and worshipping Idols Phi. The text noteth not howe long hee was king before hee deposed his mother Theo. After the death of Abiah Asa his sonne saieth the Scripture raigned in his steede in whose dayes the Land was quiet tenne yeares Then came the AEthiopians out against him with an huge hie host those hee ouerthrew And at his returne the Prophet Azariah met him and incouraged him to goe forwarde in the reformation of the Lande which hee perfourmed in all the Cities of Iudah and Beniamin and gathered all the people of the Lande togither in the fifteenth yeare of his raigne where this oth was taken and paine appointed before his mother was deposed So that he not shee was rightfull Gouernour of Iudah and that which shee lost was either the honour and dignitie which otherwise did appertaine to so great a State as the kinges mother or else that portion of the Lande which was assigned to her to rule vnder the king in respect of her dowrie Howsoeuer the kingdome shee had not and therefore the crowne she lost not neither finde you here a Prince deposed by his subiectes but a Prince remouing her that in nature was his mother in condition his subiect from that authoritie or dignitie choose you whether which before of fauor not of duety he suffered her to haue Phi. For that case also in Deuteronomie expresse charge was giuen to slea all false Prophetes and whosoeuer should auert the people from the true worship of God induce them to receiue straunge Gods and newe religions and to destroie all their followers were they neuer so neere vs by nature And in the same place that if anie Citie shoulde reuolt from the receiued and prescribed worship of God begin to admit new religions it should be vtterly wasted by fire and sword Theo. The commaundement in Deuteronomie toucheth not heretiks but manifest Apostataes such as cleane forsooke the verie name and outward profession of God and serued straunge and new gods and the rigour of this precept I meane the punishment doeth not binde vs that are vnder the Gospell by the iudgement of the best learned that euer taught in the church of Christ. For by the same law of God blasphemers adulterers witches strikers and cursers of Parentes should die Which penalties your owne church did neuer execute nor any christian Magistrate that euer wee reade of Touching heretikes you heard Sainct Augustines opinion before that it neuer pleased any good man in the
as soone as the Pope by his letters willed them Theo. The one halfe of the electours were Bishops that neither durst nor would abide the Popes furie in the other halfe it was easie to finde one that would be seduced displeased or some way corrupted to go to the choice of a new but that the elect of theirs was slaine the same yere in the siege of Vlme William of Holland that was choseÌ„ next after him had as short a dispatche by those that tooke part with Fredericke And had you not beene more actiue with your poisons than lucklie with your elections Fredericke had sped them faster than you had named them Phi. His own bastard stisled him Theo. But his Antagonists first drenched him so Cuspinian sayth The Popes hatred against the Prince ceased not whom he night and day deuised how to destroy after the conspiracie of Theobaldus Franciscus Gulielmus of San Seuerine and Pandulphus was detected who coÌ„fessed they were set on by the Pope as Peter de Vines witnesseth in his second booke tenth thirtieth epistle Yet at last the prince could not be so watchful but when he returned to Apulia hee was poysoned And lying very sicke of the potion which he tooke and beginning at length to recouer he was stifled of Manfrede his base sonne with a pillow as he lay in his bed Thus you made away that worthie Emperour Frederike the second and these bee the weapons of your Romish warfare against Princes excommunications rebellions poysons Phi. You raiâ—e without all reason Theo. I speake no more than trueth Your owne examples shall iustifie the same Omitte Henry the seuenth called Henrie of Lucenburg whome a Dominican Frier poysoned in the chalice Lodouike of Bauaria and king Iohn of this lande were they not thus persued and thus dispatched Beginne with Lodouike the fourth What cause had Iohn the 22. to curse and banne him and to condemne him for an heretike Phi. Platina telleth you he called himselfe Emperour without the authoritie of the See of Rome and ayded the deputies of Italie to get the citie of Millan and to be Lords ouer it Theo. Two shamefull sinnes I assure you He had foure voyces when he was first chosen in contentioÌ„ with Frederike of Austria Auentinus saith he had fiue after in the field he tooke the other elect prisoner and so ended the strife why then should he not take himselfe to be lawful Emperour Phi. The fourth voice which did the deede was cunningly stollen For where the Marquesse of Brandenburge then absent wrate his letters for Frederike his name was rased out and Lodouikes conuaied in Theo. Sir by your leaue that is a legend The marquesse of Brandenburge sent his substitute with a general coÌ„mission to choose as hee sawe cause though as some said his meaning were that Frederike should haue his voyce and that instruction hee had giuen priuatly to the partie that was sent who deceiued his expectation and named Lodouike The second obiection is more absurd For Lodouike aided those that stoode for the safetie of the Empire against the Popes incourses practises And that since he was chosen Emperour in honour and equitie he was bound to do Phi. He ayded them against the Church Theo. The Church of Christ hath nought to do with the warlike wilful tumults of Popes Phi. He made a new Pope against Iohn the 22. and set him vp as an Idole in Peters chaire Theo. The Pope before that had done the worst he could against Lodouike openly excoÌ„municating him and all his fauourers and appointing him three monethes to renounce the election to the Empire that was made of him and come personally to excuse himselfe of his fact in giuing ayde to heretiques schismatikes and such as were rebels against the Church He also depriued al Clergie men that yeelded the Prince any counsell helpe or fauour And when Lodouike appeared not the Pope accursed him and condemned him of heresie These be the sober and graue proceedings of your holy father which he and his flatterers called the defence and exaltation of the church But the sounder and sincerer of his owne Canonists and schoolemen abhorred as the confusion and desolation of all Godlines Hermannus then lyuing sayth These proceedings against Lodouike were curiously obserued by some but very many reputed them litle worth because as men said they were examined by the Doctours of both Lawes pronounced by them to bee vtterly voyde Yea many famous diuines well commended for their learning and life concluded the Pope to bee an heretike for certaine errors which hee coldly recanted at the houre of his death and Benedictus his successor is reported to haue publikely condemned those erronious opinions Phi. Nothing is so well done that all men like it Theo. It must needes bee euill that so many of your owne side mislike yea which the Pope that came next most of all others misliked For when the kinges of Fraunce and Apulia by their Legates defaced the person of Lodouike and rehearsed what thinges hee did against the Church the Pope replied nay wee did against him Hee would haue come to the feete of my predecessor if hee might haue beene receiued to fauour and that he did hee did it prouoked The Prelates and Princes of Germanie being assembled at Franckforde with their common consent reiected all the Popes iudicial processe against this Emperour as wholy voide and of no validitie the Prince declaring so much by his Imperial decree By the counsell and consent of all the prelats princes of Alemannie assembled at our towne of Francford wee denounce determine these processes of Pope Iohn against vs to bee none in Law and of no strength or force And wee straitly charge and commaund all and euery within the limittes of our Empire of what condition state soeuer that no singular person nor societie presume to obserue the sayde sentences of excommunication and interdiction Where also you may see the protestations and allegations of that Prince against the doings of Pope Iohn taken out of the groundes of your owne Canons and the very same that are defended of vs at this day as warrantable by the sacred Scriptures and auncient order of Christes Church namely these The Prince hath his sword or dominion not from the Pope but only from God The sacred Canons and the Church of Christ prohibite and doe not graunt to the Pope the right of the Empire and power in temporall things The sentence is ipso iure none which is erroneous as when it commandeth the subiect not to obey his superiour or prescribeth any thing against God or the Scripture But it is manifest that Pope Iohn hath coÌ„maunded that our subiectes shall not obey vs to whome all that are in our Empire ought to yeeld alleagance and reuerence by the Lawes of God and man This
their eyes which all the godly beleeue with their heartes If oyle bee wanting they bee perfect Magistrates notwithstanding and Gods annointed as well as if they were inoyled And so for the person of the Bishoppe that doeth annoynt them It is fittest it be done by the highest but yet if they can not or will not any Bishoppe may perfourme it Authoritie to condition with Princes at the tyme of their coronation the Bishoppe hath none hee is faythfully to declare what GOD requireth at the handes of Princes not in religion onely but in rewarding vertue reuenging sinne relieuing the poore and innocent repressing the violent procuring peace and doing iustice throughout their Realmes and that if they faile in any of these God will not faile seuerely to visite the breach of his Lawe and contempt of their callings but yet hee hath no commission to denounce them depriued if they misse in some or all of these dueties much lesse to drawe Indentures betweene God and Princes conteyning the forfeiture of their crownes with a clause for the Pope and no man else to reenter if they keepe not couenants Phi. You graunt they bee bounde to God to defend the Church and true Religion Theo. Euen so bee they bound to doe those other thinges which I before rehearsed The couenaunt which God made with the Prince of his people was to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe not some but all the wordes of his Law The othe which the Kinges of Englande take hath many thinges besides the defence of the fayth and the Church The King shall feare God and loue him aboue all things and keepe gods precepts through his whole kingdome Hee shall aduance good Lawes and approoued customes and banish all euill Lawes from his kingdome Hee shal doe right iudgement in his realme and maintaine iustice by the counsell of his Nobles with many other points there specified All these thinges the King in his owne person shall sweare beholding and touching the holy Gospel in the presence of the people the Priestes and the Clergie before hee bee crowned by the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of his Realme Shal a king bee deposed if hee reuolt as you call it from his promise and othe in any of these points Phi. Heresie and infidelitie tend directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiects and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church true Religion Theoph. Wee compare not vices but discusse the vitiousnes of your conclusion Kinges you say couenant with GOD at their annointing That othe and promise if they breake with God the people you adde may and by order of Christs supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them If by BREAKING you ment not obeying them in those particular cases which tend to the defacing of Gods trueth your illation were not much amisse for in all things wee must obey God rather than man but by BREAKING you vnderstand an vtter refusing of obedience in all other cases and a violent remoouing them from their crownes which we say is not lawfull for Pastor nor people to atteÌ„pt against princes though they answere not their duties to God in euerie point They couenant at the same time and with the same oth the keeping and obseruing of the whole lawe of God and yet was there neuer any man so brainsicke as to defend that Princes for euerie neglect and offence against the Law should be deposed Phi. Heresie is one of the greatest breaches of Gods Law Theo. To hold the truth of God in manifest and knowen vnrighteousnes without repentance is a greater impietie than ignorantly to be deceiued in some points of religion but we stand not on the degrees of sinnes which God will reuenge from the greatest to the smallest as much as on the person which may do it and the warrant whereby it must be done We deny that Princes haue any superiour and ordinarie Iudge to heare and determine the right of their Crownes Wee deny that God hath licenced any man to depose them and pronounce them no Princes The sonne cannot desherit his father nor the seruant countermaund his master by the lawes of God and nature be the father and master neuer so wicked Princes haue farre greater honour and power ouer subiects than any man can haue ouer sonnes and seruantes They haue power ouer goods lands bodies and liues which no priuat man may chalenge They be fathers of our Countries to the which we be nearer bound by the very confession of Ethnikes than to the fathers of our flesh Howe then by Gods law should subiects depose their Princes to whom in most euident woords they must bee subiect for conscience sake though they bee tyrauntes and Infidels And if the subiects them-selues haue no such power what haue strangers to meddle or make with their Crownes Phi. Doe you count the Pope a straunger to Christian Princes Theo. Would God he were not woorse euen a mortall and cruell enimie to al that bee Godlie He was a subiect vnder them eight hundreth yeares and vpwarde he after by sedition and vsurpation grewe to bee a sâ—ate amongest them a Superiour ouer them in causes concerning their Crownes and states you shall neuer prooue him to bee For a thousand yeares he durst offer no such thing these last fiue hundreth hee often assayed it and was as often repelled from it by factions conspiracies excommunications and rebellions hee molested and grieued some of them as I haue shewed but from the ascention of our Lorde and Sauiour to this present day neuer Prince Christian did yeeld and acknowledge any such power in the Pope and those that seemed in their neighbours harmes somewhat to regard his doings for an aduauntage when the case concerned them-selues most boldlie reiected his iudgements Phi. By the fall of the King from the faith the danger is so euident and ineuitable that GOD had not sufficientlie prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church and holie Lawes if there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes Theo. You make vs many worthy reasons for the depriuation of Princes but of all others this is the cheifest If there were no way to depriue Princes God hath not say you sufficiently prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church Euen so one of your owne fellowes saide before you of the verie same poinâ—e Non viderâ—tur Dominus discretus fuisse vt cum reuerentia â—ius loquar c. The Lorde by his leaue should haue seemed scant discreete except hee had left one such Vicar behind him as might doe all things to witte depose Emperours and all other Princes Unlesse your rebellious humours may take place you stick not to charge the sonne of God with lack of discretion negligence but looke better about you ye blasphemous mouths you shall see that the Church of God is purest when
a matter of more dependence than may bee ouer-ruled with a fewe piked and well couched tearmes You must therefore exactly and directly prooue the Popes authoritie to depose Princes which you shall neuer bee able to doe or else hee for attempting it is the man of sinne exalting him-selfe in the Church of GOD and you for defending and executing the same lacke not many degrees of high and haynous treason The carying of this in your owne heartes and reconciling of others within the realme that they might bee readie to receiue this impression at your mouthes when tyme should serue were the very causes why some of your fellowes tasted of her maiesties iust and prouoked indignation and if it be tyrannie for the Prince to put them to death that lay plottes to haue her crowne and her life and write bookes to auouch it lawful for themselues and all others so to doe when the Pope sayth the word then her highnes hath done you some wrong but if by diuine and humane recordes it bee damnable in the subiect to attempt or abet any such thing and most laudable in the Prince to reuenge the consenter and encourager as well as the doer then for religion hath none of your side beene martyred in England as your shamelesse eloquence would enforce onely some were executed for affirming publishing and furdering the Popes Antichristian power to rule realmes and depriue Princes which you call religion because you would plant it in the peoples hearts with lesse labour and more liking though in deede it be pestilent pride in him and a plaine contempt of God and the Prince in you that should obey Phi. M. Iohn Slade and M. Iohn Body two famous confessours were they not condemned to death in publike iudgement for confessing their fayth of the Popes spiritual soueraigntie and for denying the Queene to bee head of the Church of England or to haue any spirituall regiment and that twise at two diuers sessions a rare case in our countrie the later sentence being to refourme the former as we may gesse in such strange proceedings which they perceiued to bee erroneous and vnsufficient in their owne Lawes Theo. Promotions are rife at Rome you would not else so soone aduance two frowarde and rude companions for masters martyrs Their iudgement was twise giuen not as you peruersly yet after your manner interprete the later to reforme the former as erroneous and vnsufficient but for that they complayned they were drawen afore they were ware and against their wils to vtter speaches against the Princes sworde for which they were condemned the grace mercie of the Prince was such that her highnesse was content they should bee tried the seconde tyme to see whether those words were vnaduisedly and vnwillingly spoken as they pretended or of set mischiefe malice and warned by the Iudge to take good heede and looke wel about thē before they rashly offered themselues to the danger of the Lawes Where if they fell againe openly and lustily to auouch that the Pope was supreme head of the Church of England and consequently the Queene had no right to make lawes as shee had doone but was subiect to the Popes Decrees and censures which is the maine ground of all your rebellion and his presumption who besides you that are yoked in the same cause with them will say they died for religion and not rather for their wilful charging the Prince with vsurpation yeelding the Pope that dominion which hee claimeth ouer kingdomes and you would faine establish with your vntrue surmises Phi. The question of Peters keyes is it not a matter of meere religion Theo. If you draw Princes crownes and swordes within the limits of Peters keyes you leaue religion and hatch rebellion Phi. Yet is it a question whereof diuines do doubt Theo. You may doubt what you list to flatter the Pope but your doubting may not stoppe Princes from defending that which is their owne against the Popes vniust claime and vnlawfull force The Prince striueth not with the Pope neither for the dignitie which hee taketh aboue all Bishoppes nor for the power which hee seeketh to bind and loose sinnes in heauen though therein hee doeth the Church of Christ great wrong and oppresseth his brethren but onely for her right to commaund and punish within her own Realme in ecclesiasticall causes and crimes as well as in temporall which I haue largely prooued euery Prince may within his owne Dominion and for the wrong that her maiestie receiued when shee was depriued of her crowne by him that had no warrant from Christ to disquiet her state or dispose her crown These bee the pointes comprised in her highnes Lawes Against these if your rash and ill aduised brethren woulde runne headlong to their owne perdition when they were admonished by the magistrate to haue better regarde to their wordes they haue the iust rewarde of their vnfaythfull and disloyall heartes and my assertion is true that these two ignorant yet obstinate persons with some others which came not to any particular mention of the Popes bull against the Prince but generally stoode in defence of that power to be good and lawfull from whence the bull proceeded died in the same quarell with the rest that purposely promoted defended and assisted the bull and so can bee no witnesses of Christes trueth and glory which woulde needes cast away their liues for the Popes pride and tyrannie Phi. It is hard dealing to make such trifles treasons Theo. Call you those trifles when Princes shall lose their kingdomes and their people freely rebell and you defende the warres of their owne subiects against them to be iust and honourable by vertue of that power which you attribute to the Pope when you make him head of the Church Had you liued in Saint Augustines dayes you would haue sayde it had beene harder dealing that one word against the Christian Emperours although they were dead shoulde be counted treason Thou doest promise sayth Augustine to Petilian that thou wilt reckon many of our Emperours and iudges WHICH BY PERSECVTING YOV PERISHED and concealing the Emperours thou meanest two Iudges or Deputies Why didst thou not name the Emperours of our cōmunion were thou afraid to bee accused as guiltie OF TREASON where is your courage which feare not to kill your selues To say that Emperours PERISHED FOR PERSECVTING was Treason in his tyme In our age you thinke it much that reproching of Princes as tyrants and heretikes ayding the Pope with your perswasions absolutions rebellions to take their crownes from them should be punished or adiudged Treason Phi. There is no law so rigorous but your diuinitie wil serue you to defend it Theo. What is against your duetie to God and your Prince in that I am a diuine I may iustly debate what punishment the Prince will appoint for such offences as be committed against her neither you nor I haue to doe with it
be whether euerie ladde or lasse prentise and ploughman exactly vnderstand euery word that is written but whether they edifie the church of Christ or no that is whether they haue in them many thinges fruitfull to be knowen and easie to bee learned if the hearers will be diligent and delight in the law of God as they ought are bound to doe And in this case masters you be not only snappish but very saucy with God himself that wil not suffer him to speak in his Church by the mouthes of his Prophetes and Apostles if you finde any sot or simâ—le idiote in the company that happily vnderstandeth not euery word which the holy Ghost vttereth Were you Surgions of the body and had some in cure that could not see with one eye to remedy that imperfection would you put out both and make them starke blind Phi. A wise similitude Theo. As wise as your illation against our diuine seruice For where some be so dull and ignorant that they conceiue not diuerse thinges in the Psalmes Lessons and prayers to helpe that you would take from them the rest which they doe vnderstand and so fill their eares with the strangenesse of an vnknowen tongue that their hearts perceiue iust asmuch of your prayers as blind men â—o of colours And see you not that your assertion strangleth it selfe and clearly conuinceth the vnfruitfulnesse of your latine prayers For if the people bee so simple that they vnderstande not the sense of many thinges in their mother tongue how many thinke you among them vnderstand the same or any thing else in the latine tongue If the Scriptures must be inioyned silence in the Church because they speake some thinges which the ruder sort can not easily attain what place can be left for your latine Masse Mattines and seruice of which the people vnderstand not one word and the knowledge of so much as one sentence thereof before they can get they must be not only Diuines which you say they are not but good Grammarians which in their education is not possible What else is this but to put out both their eyes where before they vnderstood many things that were both fruitfull and needefull for them so to mure vp their eares and choke vp their harts with a barbarous sound of vnknowen speech that neither the simpler nor wiser sort of them perceiued any line or letter of your seruice Phi. Call you the latine tongue barbarous Theo. Not in it selfe but in respect of the hearer which is not acquainted with it And so S. Paul calleth any language that is not vnderstood barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not If I know not the power or signification of the speech I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee that speaketh shall be barbarous to me that vnderstand him not Phi. You are deceiued There is here no worde written or ment of any other tongues but such as men spake in the primatiue Church by miracle Theo. Did not the twelue Apostles that were Hebrewes borne speake Greeke and Latine by the miraculous gift of the holy Ghost descending on them in the likenes of clouen and firie tongues as it is specified in the second of the Actes Phi. I thinke they did because the Romanes are there named amongest those that hearde euery man their owne language at the Apostles mouthes Mary though the Hebrew Greeke and Latine might bee giuen by miracle and without study it being knowen to the Iewes Romanes or Greekes in euery place they be not counted among the differences of barbarous and straunge tongues here spoken of Theo. S. Paul doth not here like a Rhetorician as you would haue him distinguish the tongues which bee most eloquent and oratoricall in themselues that was farre from the Apostles minde or purpose but onely sheweth that euery tongue not vnderstood bee it Hebrew Greeke Latine Persike Arabike or what language you list seemeth not without iust cause to bee barbarous to him that knoweth not the force and signification of the speech And so he limiteth the word barbarous when hee saith If I knowe not the power of the voice I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee likewise to mee Omnis sermo qui non intelligitur barbarus iudicatur Euery tongue that is not vnderstood is deemed saith Hierom to be barbarous And Chrysostom He shal be barbarous to me and I to him Non vtique ob naturam vocis sed ob imperitiam not by the nature of the toung but by the vnskilfulnes of the hearer Non enim barbarus inquit ero sed loquenti barbarus Et rursus non qui loquitur barbarus est inquits sed mihi barbarous For S. Paul saith not I shal simplie be a barbarian but barbarous to him that speaketh And againe hee that speaketh shall not be absolutely a barbarian but barbarous vnto me saith the Apostle Phi. This we say was not ment of any of the three learned toungs namely not of the Latine Greeke nor Hebrew The. That is one of your oracles in your Rhemish obseruatioÌ„s but we would heare your reasons not your fansies why the Latine toung if it be not vnderstood may not bee counted barbarous to the hearer Phi. Know you that nothing in this chapter is ment of those toungs which were the common languages of the world or of the faithfull vnderstood of the learned and ciuill people in euery great citie and in which the scriptures of the old and new Testament were written Theo. This is pride to affirme what you will your selues â— it is no reason to confirme that which is now in question betwixt vs And yet that which you affirme is either not true or not much to the matter For first in latine no Scriptures were written but the Apostle writing to the Romans wrate in the Greek toung not in latine which argueth that the laâ—ine toung was nothing so much esteemed or so generally dispersed as the Greeke Next that the learned ciuile people in euery great city had the knowledge of the Hebrew Greeke latine is an other of your Iesuitical truthes auouched by no man but by your selues no way possible to be proued but by your magistrall surmises The Hebrew was hard neglected of all men sauing of the Iewes whose peculiar tongue it was the greater cities despising as well the Nation as their language til Christ was ascended between that the preaching of the Gospel in the greater cities the people though they were ciuil had neither time capacity nor meanes to learne a newe tongue and so difficult a tongue both to pronounce and vnderstand as the Hebrew is The Greeke tongue was in high price and farther spred before the birth of our Sauiour not only by reason of the Monarchie which was amongest the Grecians before it came to the Romanes but specially for that all liberall studies artes
Pastours and prophetes of the primatiue church in their publike praiers and exhortations and called it a confusion and resembled it to our babling in the church at this day which you thinke to be very disordered Phi. I see no proofe that the Pastours of the Church in the Apostles time made their publike prayers as you say by miraculous instinct of the spirite Theoph. Doe but open your eyes when you reade this chapter and you can not choose but see it Both this and the twelfth chapter treate wholy of the gifts of the spirite Where you finde that to one was giuen by the spirit the word of wisedome to an other the word of knowledge to an other fayth to an other giftes of healing by the same spirite to an other operation of wonders to an other prophesie to an other discerning of spirites to an other diuersities of toungs to an other interpretation of toungs Phi. Here is not the gift of praier numbred amongest them Theo. But in the fourteenth it is where shewing them how they should behaue themselues in the Church when the congregation was assembled he laieth this downe as a rule for them to follow I will pray with thee spirite but I will pray with the vnderstanding also I will sing with the spirite but I will sing with the vnderstanding also Else when thou blessest with the spirite how shal he that occupieth the room of the simple or common person say Amen at the giuing of thanks seeing he knoweth not what thou saiest To pray sing and blesse with the spirite in this place can bee nothing else but to be guided and led by the spirit in their praiers Psalmes thanks as they were in their doctrines interpretations exhortations which was by miracle on the suddain not by learning or study This was done in the church whē al the faithful were present to these praiers psalms thāksgiuings the people were to say Amen as the Apostle sheweth which is the ende signe and proofe of publike prayer among christians What is church seruice if this be not or what other Seruice could the Church haue besides hearing the word and offering their common supplications vnto God by the mouth of one man the rest vnderstanding what he said and confirming his praier with saying Amen Phi. The Apostle speaketh of one man supplying the place of the vulgar and you stretch it to the whole people Theo. If the praiers of the Church concerned some of the people and not all you might make that obiection with some shew but now it hath no color when S. Paul asketh How shal the simple man say Amen he meaneth not this or that man but any or euery And so the indefinite signifieth generally throughout the Scripture Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth no sinne that is Blessed is euery man to whom the Lord imputeth no sin Cursed be the man that obserueth not all the workes of the Law to doe them that is by S. Pauls owne exposition Cursed is euery man that continueth not in all things which are written in the booke of the Lawe to doe them The whole Scripture is full of the like And therefore Chrysostome noteth Indoctum promiscuam plebem vocat monstratque non leue incommodum esse si Amen dicere non possit The vnlearned he calleth the vulgar people and declareth it to be no smale inconuenience if they cannot say Amen Phi. I see they did praie sing and blesse with the spirite and that the people said Amen but had they no speciall nor vsuall praiers reserued for the ministration of the Sacrament which might not be varied Theo. You think belike they had your Introite Grail Tract Sequēce Offertorie Secrets Postcommunion Pax and Ite missa est Phi. Sure they had some precise forme of seruice though we know it not Theo. And since you knowe it not why should you make it the anker hold of all your exposition vpon S. Paul Phi. Had they no order for their seruice Theo. What a stirre here is for that which the Apostles neuer did Had they set an order for the seruice of the Church durst any man after haue broken it Phi. S. Iames masse is yet extant Theo. And so are a number of other foolish forgeries as wel as that Phi. Do you think it forged Theo. Which of S. Iames masses do you meane Phi. There are not so many that you should aske which Theo. Two there are vnder his name the one nothing like the other yet both fathered vpō him Phi. We haue but one and that set in order of church seruice with mutual praiers and answers for Priest and People very perfectly Theo. And the other you shall find in the eight booke of Clemens Apostolike constitutions where the fourteene Apostles for so you haue increased their number as well as their constitutions take precise order what praiers answers and actions shal be vsed at the mysticall sacrifice their first prescription being this that Two Deacons shal be on both sides of the altar with tuffs of pecocks tails in their hands to driue away gnats left they light in the Chalice a graue consideration for Christs Apostles to meete together to make flappes to catch flies Phi. That I graunt is a matter of smal respect but yet not enough to refute the booke Theo. It is sufficiently refuted in that neither the Church of Christ nor your selues euer esteemed it Had this book beene Authentik it must needs haue beene taken into the canon of the Scriptures For if that which any one Apostle wrate be Canonical much more that which al the Apostles with common consent decreed and ordered Againe had the Apostles prescribed an exact fourme of diuine seruice for the Lords table what man would haue altered it or what Church refused it How would either Basill or Chrysostome haue presumed to make newe formes of Church seruice if those liturgies be theirs not rather forced on thē as this is on the first chiefe Apostles of Christ Why did the Latine Church and the Church of Rome her selfe neglect that seruice if it were Apostolike and preferre the praiers of one Scholasticus as worthier to be said ouer the deuine mysteries the maker being so obscure a man that his name is not knowen in the church of god why were the Bishops of Rome 600. yeares vpward patching piecing the masse before they brought it to any setled forme as your own fellowes confesse and yet then Rome had one forme of seruice Millan an other which they keepe at this day Fraunce a thirde Why did Gregorie when he was consulted by Augustine the monke what forme of diuine seruice he should commēd to the Saxons wil him to bind himselfe neither to Rome nor to any church els but to take from euery place that which he liked best and deliuer that vnto the English To
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
mingle your fansies with the precepts of Christ and when we reiect the one as we lawfully may you charge vs with contempt of the other which we exactly follow and this you vtter in such darke and doubtfull speach that it is harder for vs to vnderstand you than refute you Philand Do we not speake plaine enough when we say you imitate not Christ neither in vnleauened bread nor in mingling water with wine as he did Theoph. You deale now plainely if you dealt also truly but that you do not In what bread Christ ministred the Sacrament may perchance be coniectured but no such thing is expressed in the Gospell much lesse prescribed for vs to follow Since the Scripture saith he tooke bread and maketh no distinction what bread he tooke nor limiteth what bread we should take we be left at libertie so we take bread to take either leauened or vnleauened as occasion serueth vs. This conclusion Gregorie the first confesseth to be most true Tam azimum quà m fermentatum dum sumimus vnum corpus Domini saluatoris efficimur Whether it be leauened or vnleauened bread that we take we are made one body of our Lord and Sauiour The whole Church of Rome not yet an 150. yéeres ago cōfessed as much in the councell of Florence Their words are Item in azimo siue fermētato pane triticeo corpus Christi veraciter confici Sacerdotésque in altero ipsum Domini corpus conficere debere vnumquemque scilicet iuxta suae ecclesiae siue Occidentalis siue Orientalis consuetudinem We define the body of Christ to be truly consecrated in wheaten bread whether it be vnleauened or leauened and that the Priests are bound to consecrate the Lords bodie in either of the twaine euery man according to the custome of his Church be it West or East Phil. That custome you breake For where the west Church did alwaies consecrate in vnleauened bread and the East Church in leauened you renounce the order of the west Church in which you liue and to spite the supreme Pastor of the west parts yea rather of the whole world you follow the manner of that Church which is many thousand miles distant from you Theoph. We are reasoning of Christs institution not of customes or Churches and your holy Father himselfe affirmeth that to be no breach of Christs ordinance which you haue noted against vs in your Rhemish obseruations as a transgression of the first and originall institution of the Lords supper And so whiles you egarly and rashly persue vs to trippe vs in somewhat your owne Churches and Councels condemne you for wranglers Phil. In the other part of the Sacrament you contemne Christ and his Church much more impudently and damnably For Christ and all the Apostles and all Catholike churches in the world haue euer mixed their wine with water for great mysterie and signification specially for that water gushed togither with blood out of our Lords side This our Lord did saith S. Cyprian epist. 63. ad Cecilium nu 4.7 and none rightly offereth that followeth not him therein Thus Irenaeus lib. 5. cap. 1. Iustine Apol. 2. in fine and all the fathers testifie the Primatiue church did and in this sort it is done in all the Masses of the Greekes S. Iames S. Basils S. Chrysostomes and yet you pretending to reduce all to Christ will not do as he did and all the Apostles and churches that euer were Theo. Their faces must be well stéeled that are harder than yours the whore of Babylon that hatched both your frierly profession and religion hath taught you long since to leaue off blushing and fall to bragging We mingle not water with the wine which we consecrate this is impudently and damnably done say you You néede more water with your wine your toongs burne so hoat with your impudent lies and damnable lies that an whole streame will skant coole them Phi. Christ and all the apostles all catholike churches in the world haue euer mixed their wine with water you will not of very frowardnes do you not deserue to haue hoate words Theop. We forbid no man to temper his wine with water if he find either himselfe annoied with the vse of méere wine or the wine of it selfe to be headie and strong yea we rather wish all men if the wine prouided for the Lords table be hoat and fuming to delay it that it may be mild and temperate least that which is taken to sanctifie the soule happen to distemper and hurt the body and we greatly commend the wisedome of Christes Church in former ages where the wines were fierie and communions daily as in the noblest and chiefest partes of christendome in those daies for delaying her wine with water that the very element might serue for sobrietie as well as the word for increasing of sanctity But the Christ or his Apostles vsed water with the wine which they hallowed or commanded others to mingle both wine and water in this mysterie or that the Church of Christ euer taught it to be a necessary part of this Sacrament that we deny That if you proue we will acknowledge amend our error which as yet we take to be none by reason we find it a thing lawfull but not néedefull to be done and estéeme it in them as a matter rather of temperance than of conscience Phil. They did it for great mystery and signification as Cyprian in an whole epistle teacheth you and they tooke their paterne from Christ himselfe of whom Cyprian saith This our Lord did and none offereth rightly that followeth not him therein Theop. You peruert Cyprian as you do all things else that come through your hands Cyprian intendeth not in that epistle to prooue that Christ had water in the cup when he deliuered the same to his disciples but he refuteth the Aquarij that ministred the communion in water alone and against them he prooueth that Christ had wine and not water for the Sacrament of his blood and then inferreth to that effect which you alleadge This the Lord did that is he tooke wine to resemble his blood and none offereth rightly that followeth not him therein Phil. Nay Cyprian hath plaine words that Christ mingled wine and water both together His words are At enim non manè sed post coenam mixtum calicem obtulit Dominus Our Lord offered his chalice mingled with water and wine not in the morning but after supper And againe Qua in parte inuenimus calicem mixtum fuisse quem Dominus obtulit By which part of Christes speech we find the chalice that our Lord offered was mingled with wine and water Theop. We doubt not that Cyprian calleth the cup which Christ offered mixtus calix but his meaning we say was to expresse that Christ had wine in the cup which he gaue and therefore if any man minister the Lords cup not mingled with wine he followeth not the Lords
manifest for Christes mingling water with wine that you are faine to deny the worke Theo. If the Church of Christ did receiue it I will not deny it but if they knew no such monument why should you be suffered now to sort vs out what forgeries you list for Apostolike labours Phil. The sixth generall councell vnder Iustinian receiued the Masse of S. Iames and S. Basill as authentike and proued by their authorities against the Armenians vsing wine alone in the mysteries that Christ had both water and wine in his sacrifice Theo. That councell which you cite was neither the sixt generall nor any generall councell at all It was celebrated 700. and odde yeares after Christ by which time it may be Iames his Liturgie was gotten into some credite amongst them and yet they alleadge neither of them for Christes institution but only that deliuering the Church seruice in writing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they taught that order to perfit the sacred cup with wine and water in the diuine ministration Philand Call you the credite of that councell also in question Theo. I might well do it if I would but follow the iudgement either of your néerest friends or of those that liued next to the time when this councell was called Surius the great Soultan of your side sayeth that some of those are thought to be Supposititij vel Graecorum temeritate deprauati either forged or depraued by the rashnesse of the Grecians And Theophanes who wrate not long after the kéeping of the councell sayeth that those are falsly sayd to be the canons of the sixt councell and giueth this hard iudgement of them vt enim in caeteris omnibus falsitatis arguuntur ita in hac re quoque mentiuntur as in all other things they be taken tardie with falsehood so in this also they make a lie But for our parts we sée no reason to deale so rigorousely with them They were but a prouinciall councell if they were any councell at all for we haue nothing left but the canons and those contradicted by name Next the makers liued more than 700. yeares after Christ and might soone be deceiued by the titles and shewes of these Liturgies Lastly what corruptions haue crept since either into the canons or into the Liturgies we know not and in those cases which the Gospell exactly reporteth as it dooth the Lords Supper we beléeue no man against or without the Gospell And that in Chrysostoms Liturgie water was mingled long after consecration for the people to drinke the booke it selfe will shew you where the words of Christes institution being repeated thrée leaues before when the time for the Priests and people to communicate approched it is said Accipiunt Diaconi sacros calices praestolantes cum feruente aqua venientem Subdiaconum Tunc infundit aquam calidam quantum sufficit Deinde sumit corpus Dominicum The Deacons take the sacred cups or chalices expecting the Deacon that bringeth water that hath boiled Then he powreth in to the chalices warme water so much as sufficeth and after receiueth the Lords body Now Sir with all your cunning tell vs for what signification and mysterie water that had sodde was powred into the chalice after consecration if not to temper and delay the headinesse of the wine before the priest or people did drinke of it and if your braines be not mingled with too much melancholie you will perceiue that could be no part of Christs institution Phi. We find no such thing in Chrysostoms Masse Theo. It were maruel that I should find it and not you Phil. Reade his Liturgie translated by Erasmus and if you find it I will giue you this hand Theo. Your hand will do me no good I had rather you should confesse a truth than hazard a ioint Reade Chrysostoms Liturgy which Leo Thuscus translated into the Latin tongue and Claudius de Saintes a man of your Religion hath set foorth of Plantines Presse 1560. and if you find not the words as I repeat them returne theÌ„ to me for masterlesse creatures which I would be loth you should Phil. But mention is made in the very beginning of the same Liturgie that the priest mixed water with wine before consecration Theo. It may be the priest did temper that which himselfe should drincke before consecration But after consecration before the rest of the Clergie or the people did communicate they delaied it with water in such sort as I tell you what the cause was iudge you Phil. Why this was done I can not so well say but this I know that all catholike churches in the world haue euer mixed their wine with water Theo. Had they so done yet so long as they did it for sobrietie not for necessitie it nothing concerneth Christes institution which we labour to restore nor bindeth any man as a matter of religion or coÌ„science but now your flanting humor swelleth aboue truth and measure when you say all Churches in the world haue euer obserued the same Phil. Name one age or place that hath not done it Theo. That is the way indéed to cast the burden on other mens shoulders which your selues should beare and yet we can soone choake you with an instance and that by the verie confession of your owne fellowes Alexander septimus à Petro Pontifex conseâ—raturus primus aquam vino miscuit instituÃtque vt ex azimo non fermentato vt antea consueuit fieret pane Alexander the seuenth from Peter was the first saith Polydore that mingled water with wine at consecration and ordained that the oblation should be of vnleauened bread and not of leauened as till that time was vsed Lo Sir the whole church of Christ in all the Apostles times vsed wine alone an hundred yeares after Christ beganne the first admixtion of water with wine and vse of vnleauened bread in the Lordes supper which you with forgerie vnder Iames name would father on Christ himself though he in the Gospel with his owne mouth deny it For countries we can giue you the like The Armenians for 1145. yeares after Christ died leauened bread and mingled no water with their wine at the Lordes â—akle See the report of Otho Frisingensis in whose time they began to hearken to the church of Rome Their Metropolitane had vnder him a thowsand Bishops and in some things agreed in some things dissented from the Greeke church Where amongst other things he sayth of the whole countrie of Armenâ—a Ponunt fermentatum panem sicut illi aquam autem vino non miscent sicut nos illi They vse leauened bread in the Lordes supper as the Grecians do mary they mingle no water with their wine as both we the Grecians do These bee your famous obiections which you exaggerate as if they were some mighty breaches of Christ ordinaunce wherein to let passe the holde which wee haue in the Gospell being thereby cleared from
specifie For Christ said take ye eate ye which in their priuate Masses your Priestes doe not and for that cause euerie such Masse is a manifest contempt of Christes wordes and deedes confessed and rehearsed by your owne mouthes at the altar as partes of his institution Phi. The Catholike church onely by Christes spirit can tell which thinges are imitable which not in al his actions The. When himself hath appointed what actions of his he will haue to be followed the church is bound to obey not licenced to make her choise But in this case the church of christ hath faithfully done her duty For she alwayes obserued these actions of Christ her Lord and master and verified his wordes till Antichrist with pride and power came to take vp his seat in the middest of her and to proportion all religion to his vnsounde and deceiued affection Phi. Is the catholike church in this point with you Theo. Yea and against you mightily The canons as you terme them Apostolicall prohibit your priuat Masse Whosoeuer of the faithfull enter the church heare the scriptures read if they stay not out praiers receiue the sacred communion let them as peruerters of ecclesiasticall order bee put from the communion Which words the councell of Antioch repeateth and confirmeth as agreeable to Christian discipline in their dayes Reade the church seruice which as you tell vs Iames Basill and Chrysostom coâ—posed you shall finde them publike communions not priuate masses read what Dionysius S. Pauls schâ—ler as you beare men in hand and Iustinus the martyr report of the â—â—â—â—tration of the Lords Sâ—pper in their daies This is the generall and catholike description and order of the diuine mysteries saith Dionysius that first the minister himself receiueth then imparteth the same to others Towards the end of our praiers â—aith Iustinus we salute one an other with a kisse after that bread and a cup of wine delaied with water are brought to him that hath charge ouer his brethren which he taketh and giueth thankes to the father of all through the sonne and holy Ghost his praier and thankes all the people standing by confirme with answering Amen then those which are called with vs Deacons giue euery man that is present of the bread and wine tempered with water and carie the same to such as are absent This I trowe resembleth our communion not your priuat masse this without controuersie was the catholike and Apostelike maner of solemnizing the Lordes Supper in the Primatiue church Yea the church of Rome which you woulde seeme so much to reuerence withstood this your profanation of the Lordes supper a long time with maruelous zeale Consecration ended saith Pope Calixtus let all communicate that will not stand excommunicated for so the Apostles determined and the holy Romane church obserueth The maner of the whole church in Pope Gregories time 600. yeares after Christ was for a Deacon to crie to the people Si quis non communicet det locum he that mindeth not to communicate let him auoide Pope Martine willed him to be cast out of the catholike church which entered the church of God and with held himselfe from the communion of the Sacrament Charles the Emperour 800. yeares after Christ gaue commaundement vt omnes fideles communicent ad Missas perexpectent sine alâ—a depraedicatione that all the faithfull should communicate and looke at masse so to do without other warning What need we farther proofe in a case so manifest your owne fellowes confesse no lesse In the primatiue church saith Durandus all that were present at the celebration of the Masse did euery day coÌ„municate Their oblation was a great loafe sufficient for al which the Grecians are said to continue to this day So that both the wordes of Christs institution the traditioÌ„ of the primatiue church directly refute your priuate Masses and proue the communion now vsed in the church of England to be good and catholike The Lordes supper saith Chrysostom ought to bee common For such thinges as are the Lords belong not to this or to that seruant but are commoÌ„ to all If then it be the Lords as in deed it is thou shouldst not take it as thine owne to thy selfe but propose it to all in common as being the Lordes Thou doest not suffer it to be the Lords wheÌ„ thou doest not suffer it to be coÌ„moÌ„ but eatest it thy selfe Paul calleth it the Lords supper which is receiued in common with one consent of all assembled together for vntill all communicate be partakers of that spiritual food the mysteries once set foorth are not taken away but the priests standing still stay for all yea for the poorest of all So Theodoret The Lords table is equally proposed vnto al meÌ„ of that supper all are partakers alike And Haymo The Sacrament of christs body is called a supper by reason of the communion because it ought to be common to all the faithfull and iust If this doctrine be true as there can be no question of it then are your priuat Masses far from Christs institution as far from the catholike order of Christs church which suffered no man to bee present at the time of the diuine mysteries but such as would did participate sending the rest away that could not be partakers of the Lords table And this the very name of your Masse as I haue proued doth shew signifieng the demising of all such as might not communicate which if you should do in your priuat Masses you should leaue an empty church yea the priests must take paines to serue answere himselfe since no man besides the priest hath any part of that banquet which Christ prouided for all and bequeathed vnto all to bee the monument of his passion and pleadge of their saluation With like rashnes you take from the people when you do admit them once a yeare to their rightes as you call it the cup which should be to them the communion of the Lordes blood Drinke ye all of this sayth our Sauiour and diuide it mongst you These words you repeate for a shew but you falsifie them in sense For you suffer no lay-man to tast of the Lords cup as if one part of this mystery were sufficient the rest superfluous or you might dispence with christs institution at your pleasure Phi. Christ spake that to such as were Priests not vnto the lay people The. Doth your conscience serue you Philander to play the wanton in so great and deepe mysteries of christian religion To whom then were these words spoken take ye eate ye not to the selfesame parties to whom it was said Drinke ye If none may drinke but priests because the disciples which dranke were Priests then by the same logike none should eate but priests because neither time place nor persons were chaunged betweene these two
full consent of all ages and Churches in expounding the same but also to chase the people by terror of secular power and ecclesiasticall curse from the cup of their saluation from the communion of Christs blood and felowship of his holy spirit Such fathers such fansies What is mockerie what is iniurie to God and man if this be Religion or pietie The Church of Rome you will say concluded with them That increaseth her sinnes and excuseth not their follies If an Angel from heauen had conspired with them our duetie bindeth vs to detest both him and them as accursed if they step from that which the primatiue church receiued from Paul and Paul from Christ Howe much more then ought wee to reiect that which the church of Rome presumeth not onely besides but against the sacred scriptures And yet to speake vprightly the auncient church of Rome maketh wholy with vs in this cause For no church euer resisted your mangled communions with greater vehemencie than the church of Rome did till couetousnesse and pride blinded her eyes and hardned her heart against God and his sonne Pope Iulius that lyued vnder Constantine the great made this decree We heare that certaine led with schismaticall ambition against the diuine ordinances and Apostolike directions doe giue TO THE PEOPLE the Eucharist dipped in wyne for a full communion They receiued not this from the Gospell where Christ betooke his body and blood to the Disciples For there is recited the deliuering the bread by it selfe and the cup by it selfe Let therefore all such error and presumption cease least inordinate and peruerse diuises weaken the soundnes of fayth If the communion bee neither perfite nor agreeable to Christes institution and Apostolike prescription except the people receiue both kinds seuerall and asunder the bread from the cup and the cup from the bread as Christ ordayned and the Gospel declareth Ergo your excluding the people cleane from the cup is altogether repugnant to the manifest intent of our Sauiour and right imitation of his Apostles And what if the first authors of your drie communion were the Manichees are you not wise men and well promoted to forsake the precept which Christ gaue you the president which Paul left you the course which the christian world for so many yeeres obserued and followe so pestilent and pernicious a sect of heretikes reprooued and long since condemned by the church of Rome for that very fraude and abuse in the Sacraments which you bee nowe fallen vnto The Manichees sayth Leo to couer their infidelitie venter to bee present at our mysteries and so carie them-selues in the receiuing of the Sacraments for their more safetie that they take the body of Christ with an vnwoorthy mouth but in any wise they shunne to drinke the blood of our redemption Which I would haue your dâ—uoutnes speaking to the people learne for this cause that such men might bee knowen to you by these markes and when their sacrilegious simulation is founde they may bee noted and bewrayed by the Godly that they may bee chased away by the priestly power Against this disorder of Manichees wrate Pope Gelasâ—â— as your friende Master Harding confesseth Wee haue intelligence that certaine men receiuing onely a portion of the sanctified body abstaine from the cup of the sacred blood who for that it appeareth they be entangled with I knowe not what superstition let them either receiue the whole Sacraments or be driuen from the whole because the diuiding and parting of one and the same mysterie can not bee without grieuous sacrilege The sense is plaine To take the Lordes breade and not drinke of the Lordes cup is a seuering and distracting of this mysterie which by the iudgement of these two Popes is open sacrilege ergo neither Catholike or christian What shift nâ—we Philander to saue your selues from sacrilege Spake Gelasius of the Manichees as Master Harding resolueth Graunt it were so Then what was sacrilege in them can it bee catholike in you If that auncient church of Rome condenmed this in the Manichees howe commeth your late Church of Rome not onely to suffer but also to commaund the same Can you turne darkâ—nes to light and sacrilege to Religion That were a marueilous alteration But Siâ—s your minds may change wee knowe Christes institution can not changâ— The contempt thereof in Manichees in Papistes as then so still was and will be sacrilege Spake Gelasius not of the Manichees but of certaine Priestes that receiuing the bread at the Lordes table neglected the cup Yet Leo speaketh of the Manichees by name and â—hose Laymen and mingled with the people and calleth their forbearing the Lords blood a sacrilegious sleight reason were you should prooue that onely Priesâ—es are ment in this place of Gelasius and not suppose what you list at your pleasures as the gloze doeth and others of your side that stand on this answere The woordes are indefinite and touch as well people as Priest but let vs imagine that Gelasius spake of Priestes first then you commit sacrilege in restraining all Priestes from the communion of both kinds except they say Masse themsâ—lues Next if it bee sacrilege in the Priest why not in the people The precept of our Sauiour drinke ye all of this compriseth all both Laymen and Priestes His Apostle extendeth the same to the whole Church of Corinth Chrysostome sayth the Priest differeth nothing from the people in receiuing the mysteries but one cup is proposed to al In Chalice nobiscum vos estis You sayth Austen to the people are in the Lordes cup no lesse than we The cup was deliuered to all men Priest and people with like condition as Theophilact affiâ—meth Drinke yee all of this that is sayth Paschasius as well other beleuers as Ministers Hence wee frame you this argument The cup was by Christ deliuered to Priest and People with like condition and like precept the refusing of the Lordes cup is sacrilege in priests by the position of Gelasius and the confession of your friends it is therefore no lesse than sacrilege for the people to refraine the same What then is it for you to pull the Lordes cuppe out of their handes by rigor and force for so trifling respectes as you pretende but apparent violent and wilfull sacrilege Phi. It was sacrilege then for the people to refuse or refraine the cup because the church was content to admitte them to it But now the church is otherwise resolued it were sacrilege to expect or demand it Theo. What shall the man of sinne and sonne of perdition when he commeth if hee bee not already come and you his supporters to hold vp his seate in the temple of God say more than you now say that you at your lists may breake the commandements of the great and euerlasting God and alter his ordinances and to blame you for
stakes with the Arrians IbideÌ„ epist. 33. He submitted himselfe to the punishment for that he could not with a good conscience obey the coÌ„maundement IbideÌ„ epist. 32. Ambrose ment to obey the Prince but not to flie for feare thereby to saue his life Ibidem oratio contra Auxentium IbideÌ„ epist. 33. Ibidem oratio Contra Auxen Ibidem orat contra Auxent Ibidem epist. 33. Ibidem epist. 32. Why Valentinian would not iudge betweene the Bishops of diuers faiths Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 7. Valentinian distrusting his iudgement suffered the Arrians to doe what they would Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 6. Socrat. lib. 4. Cap. 1. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 21. Theodoret. li. 4. Cap. 5. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 6. Valentinian maried two wiues gaue al men leaue to doe the like Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 31. Socra lib. 4. Cap 29. Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 32. Theodosius discerned betweene the Bishops though ValeÌ„tinian would not or could not Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. Codic li. 1. tit 1. de summa trinitate side Catholica § Cunctos The trewe faith in Theodosius time was kept at Rome that was the same which we professe at this day Princes commaunded such as were hereâ—â—â—es to be 〈…〉 of theâ— Churches Sozom. lib. 7. Cap. 9. Codic lib. 1. tit 1. § nulius Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 2. Euagrius lib. 1. Cap. 12. So did Iustinian appoint depriuation for the breach almost of euery of his ecclesiasticall lawes Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Epist. ad solitar vitam degentes Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 29. Cited of S. Athanas. in the epistle aforesaid Suidas in verbo Leontius Lib. imperfect 2. ad Constant. Constantius reproued for his tyrannous and iniurious oppressing the Church Apolog. cap. 4. Athanasius wordes discussed Apolog. Cap. 4. Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes The Iesuitical madnes of citing the fathers to beare out that which should expound the rest Hilar. de trinit lib. 4. How Princes may rule Bishops and how not Comment sub nomine Athanas in 13. Rom. Disputa Atha cum Arrio Laodicee habitae Sorat lib. 1. Cap. 33. Idem li. 1. ca. 33. Princes may not rule Bishops that is not force them nor frame them to their fansies Vide Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitam agentes 〈◊〉 may play the tiraÌ„ts in temporal things much more in spiritual if they passe christiaÌ„ moderation and sobriety Ibidem Ibidem Constantius would haue his will to be the Canon of the church * Hilar. de trin lib. 9. The wordes of 〈◊〉 〈…〉 â—o thâ—t which â—s antecedent consequent in the same epistle Fiue things misliked in Constantius as tyrannical Hilar. lib. 3. ad Constant. OfteÌ„ chainging his faith Ibidem Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constantium defunct Ibidem Constantius was dead and so no Prince when Hilarie was so bould with him in his termes Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constan. Forcing Synods to his fansie Athanaes ad Solitar vitam agentes Athans Apolo 2. in epis Synod Alexand. Athanas. ad Solitar vitam agentes Suidas in Leontio Tripolis Episco Apud Suidam ibidem Admitting false accusations against Bishops and not suffering them to speak for theÌ„selues Athan. ad Solit. vitam agentes This was plaine tyranny repugnant to the lawes of God and man Athan. ad solis vitam agentes Athan. in eadâ— Epist. Disordered electing of Bishops Athan. ibidem Tyrannous persecuting Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constan. defunct Athan. ad soâ—it vitam agentes These fathers reproued CoÌ„stantius for that he did Now what he did their own wordes doe witnesse Osius wordes examined Athan. ad solit vitam agentes It is neither lawfull for a Bishop to hold a kingdoÌ„ nor for a Prince to take a Bishops functioÌ„ on him The Priest shall not excuse the Prince before God and therefore the the Prince can not bee bound to the Priests mouth The limiting of Osius words Aug. epist. 50. The words of Osius must be limited the limitation whatsoeuer it be cannot hurt vs. Suidas in Leon. Tripolis Episâ— Princes may not do what they list in the church of God Leontius wilfullie corrupted by the Iesuites This was aboue ConstaÌ„tius â—each and without his vocation to teach bishops in his owne person Suidas a late writer Suidas in eodeÌ„ Leont Leontius a man of no great iudgement Hilarie would not haue men forced to religion with tortures Hilar. lib. 2. ad Constant. Temporall Iudges had their charge by the Remane lawes limited vnto temporall 〈◊〉 Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 46. Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 32. Nouel Constit. 83. Clergiemen exempted froÌ„ temporall lawes but not froÌ„ the Princes lawes Ibidem Princes haue euer medled with ecclesiastical matters Nabuchodonosor Daniel 3. Aug. Epist. 50. Darius Daniel 6. Ionas 3. The king of Niniueth Ionas 3. August Epi. 50. S. Austen proposeth their examples to be followed of christiaÌ„ kings Aug. Epist. 166. The commandementes of kinges may lawfully reach to the publish Kinges and rulers commaÌ„ded by the holy Ghost for medling with religion ing of religioÌ„ Moses Exod. 32. Numbers 16. Deut. 32.33 Iosua Iosua 1. Iosua 1. Iosua 5â— 8. Iosua 8. Iosua 7. Iosua 24. Iosua 24. Dauid 1. Chron. 16.1 Chron. 23.24 25.26 3. King 2. 3. King 9. The Magistrate charged with all the wordes of Moses law 3. Kinges 9. Iosua 1. Deut. 17. They which discharged their duties to God medled with all things as well Ecclesiasticall as ciuill Kinges be charged with Gods law in respect of coÌ„maunding it to others August Epi. 50. Idem contra lit Petiliani lib. 2. cap. 92. Idem contra Cres. lib. 3. cap. 51. Idem Epist. 50. Idem in Psalm 44. No man is a king in respect of himselfe but of his people Keeping and obseruing referred to magistrats is nothing else but to commaund see the law of God kept obserued by others Aug. Epist. 50. Salomon 3. Kings 8. 3. Kinges 2. 3. Kings 11. Asa. 2. Chron. 14. 2. Chro. 15. Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 17. Vers. 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 7. Vers. 8. 2. Chro. 19. Vers. 4. Vers. 8. Vers. 9. Vers. 10. Vers. 11. Vers. 10. Vers. 11. 2. Chron. 20. Vers. 3. Vers. 5. Vers. 6. Ezechiah 2. Chron. 29. Vers. 2. Vers. 3.4 Vers. 5. Vers. 10. Vers. 15. Vers. 20. Vers. 21. Vers. 27. Vers. 21. Vers. 29. Vers. 30. 2. Chron. 30. Vers. 1. Vers. 6. Vers. 12. 2. Chron. 31. Vers. 2. Vers. 21. 4. Kings 18. Manasses 2. Chron. 33. Vers. 3. Vers. 11. Vers. 12. Vers. 13. Vers. 15. Vers. 16. Iosiah 2. Chron. 34. vers 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 7. Vers. 29. Vers. 30. Vers. 31. Vers. 32. Vers 33. 2. Chron. 35. vers 1. Vers. 2. Vers. 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 6. Vers. 10. Vers. 16. Nehemias Nehem. 6. Nehe. 10. vers 1. Vers. 29. Nehem. 13. Vers. 7. Vers. 8. Vers. 9. Vers. 11. Vers. 17. Vers. 10. 11. Vers. 22. Vers. 23. Vers. 25. Vers. 28. Ver. 30. The illation vpon the former examples The kinges decreed and commaunded those
the meate is performed by those wordes but the vse end of the supper is directed by the other The precept that Christ gaue vs to follow him preciselie concerneth his actions The Rhemish Test. fol. 452. nu 24. take eate To what end is meate if it be not eaten The Rhe. Test. Ibidem Eating and drinking are not essentiall parts of the Sacrament but of the supper they are The Iesuites neglect â—hat â—â—ich Christ 〈◊〉 and busie 〈…〉 which he did 〈◊〉 * Aâ—â— that is 〈◊〉 by the Poet Viâ—gil câ—m faciam vitula * 1. Cor. 11. Mat. 26. * Oâ—ige in Matt. tract 35. Chrys. in 1. Cor. ho. 27. read the very words of Christ in the future tense a Hebr. 10. Christ ordained a Sacrament to be diuided not a sacrifice to be offered * De consecrat dist 2. § Relatum est They binde the Priest to coÌ„municate The Priest charged to do as Christ did The words of Christ rather binde him to distribute thaÌ„ him selfe to coÌ„municate The Priest in euerie priuate Masse doth make a mock of these words take ye eate ye The Rhemish Test. fol. 451. nu 23. in the night The Church must not choose what she will follow but rather obey that which Christ commanded The primatiue Church knewe not what Priuate Masse ment a Apostol can 9. b Contil. Antioâ— caâ—on 2. a Dionys. ecclesi hiâ—rarch cap. 3. b Iusti. Apol. 2. They delaied their wine with water lest meere and strong wine should annoie anie of the communicaÌ„ts c De cons. dist 2. § peracta d Greg. Dialog lib. 2. cap 23. e De cons. dist 2. ¶ Si quis f â—eg Franciae lib. 1. cap. 132. g Rationaìe diâ—â—no officio lib. 4. cap. 53. No priuate Masse in the primatiue Church by their owne confession h Chry. hom 27. in 1. Cor. i Idem hom in dictum Pauli oportâ—t haereses esse k Theod. in 1 Cor. 11. l Haym in 1. Cor. 11. The verie name of the Masse as all auncient writers vse it impugneth their priuate Masse The Lordes cup rasâ—ly taken from the people Mat. 26. Luk. 22. The cup was deliuered at the same time to the same persons with the bread ergo both or neither pertaine to the people Gâ—râ—rd Lorich de missa publica â—râ—rogâ—nda If your owne â—â—mpanions 〈◊〉 tell you 〈…〉 take 〈◊〉 to your 〈◊〉 consciences m Mat. 26. n Mark 14. o Luk. 22. The blood of Christ was shedde for the people as well as for the Priest the cup therefore belongeth to the one as wel as to the other p Chrys. hom 18. in 2. Cor. One cup proposed to all both people and Priest q 1. Cor. 2. r 1. Cor. 11. s 1. Cor. 10. S. Paul extendeth Christes words drinke you al of this to the whole Church The people of Corinth by S. Pauls instruction receiued from Christ himselfe were partakers of the Lords cup. * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text 1. Cor. 11. Did S. Paul speake these wordes to the Priests alone or to the people also 1. Cor. 12. We all as well the people as the pastours The Iesuites cannot take the cup from the people without subuerting these maine places of Scripture and parts of Christs institution The Catholike Church ministred the communion to the people in both kinds a Dionys. eccles hierarch ca. 3. b Ignat. ad Philadelphâ—ens c Athanas. in 1. Cor. 11. d Cyprian lib. 1. epis .2 e August quaest super Leuiticum li. 3. cap. 57. f De conse dist 2. ¶ quia passus g Chrysost. hom 18. in 2. Cor. h De cons. dist 2. ¶ quid sit sanguis i Theoph. in 1. Cor. 11. k Hay in 1. Cor. cap 10. l Paschas de corpo saâ—gui Dom. cap. 43. Their halfe communion is so Catholik that the master of their sentences 1200. â—eres after Christ knewe it not m Sentent lib. 4. dist 1â— De consâ—â—ist 2. ¶ comp Glosâ— sa ibidem 1300 yeares after Christ there was no communion in one kinde but in case of necessitie As though the Church could haue cause or power to chaunge Christes ordinance Rationale diuinor officio lib. 4. cap. 42. Two weightie reasons for their communion in one kinde Gerson tract contra haeresin de communione Laicorum sub viraque specie The Catholik considerations for which the the Church of Rome abolished Christes institution To followe Christes institution is adiudged to be heresie and accursed with our late Romanists What the ancient Church of Rome thought of this mangling the communion De cons. dist 2. § Cum omne The people must haue the bread and the cup deliuered them seuerallie and asunder in both kindes Leo serm 4. de quadragessima The Manâ—châ—es the first authâ—â—s of the 〈…〉 〈…〉 in them as 〈◊〉 â—â— cons. dist 2. § Coâ—perimus To â—nstaine fâ—om the Lords cup is sacrilege Artic. 2. contra I pâ—sâ— Sarâ—â— To forbeare the Lords cup is sacrilege in all persons and ages as well as it was then in the Manichees Leo speaketh of Lor◠〈◊〉 though Gelasâ—us diâ—â—â—nt and calleth it sacrilege in them to reframe the Lords cup. Mat. 26. * 1. Cor. 11. a Chrysâ—st â—â—mi 18. in 2. Coâ— b De câ—â— dist 2. §. quâ—a passus c Theâ—phil in 1. Cor. cap. 11. d Paschas de â—â—rpore saâ—g Dom. cap. 43. If it be sacrilege in the Priest it is no lesse in the people They woulde haue it to be sacrilege to withstaÌ„d their fansies and to follow Christs commaundement Esa. 5. We maie wel forsake them that forsooke both God and their fathers before them The Iesuites can not heare of eating and drinking at the Lordes table on the peoples behalfe because they haue discharged them froÌ„ both 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 10. Ioan. 6. The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. nâ— 21. â—you can not drinke The sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. Ibidem Their proofeâ— for the Sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. Ibidem They wil proue their sacrifice by S. paul himselfe God graunt you may haue eyes to see your follies Not one of all these scriptures or fathers maketh for the Sacrifice of their Masse The generall order of the Romish Religion is to keep the fathers phrases and to chaunge their faith How the Lordes supper maie truelie be called an oblation and a Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one of them is the popish Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one
knowledge and gift not only permitted but also desired to exhort the people and giue thanks to God in other mens charges Philand This might be but how proue you this was the fault which the Apostle reproued Theo. I need not proue that If this which I speake might easilie come to passe then your inuincible arguments be sensible follies corelude vtterly no such thing as you imagine Your argumeÌ„t cannot be impregnable til your consequent be ineuitable since so many cases may be put though your antecedent be admitted to repel your consequeÌ„t what wisedome was it to make such vaunt of your forces not onely before the victory but when you see your selues so voide of al good artillerie Phi. Againe the publike seruice had but one language in this exercise they speak with many tongues Theo. Againe you can neither verifie your antecedent nor iustifie your consequent Set order of publike seruice they had none in the Apostles time the Pastors and ministers praied by heart as the spirite of God guided them This gift of praier some turned to their owne prayse and ostentation when they were admitted to giue thanks to God in the congregation of the faithfull and made their prayers in such tongues as they preferred or would seeme endewed with though the people vnderstood them not for which attempt the Apostle controlleth them Phi. These are your conceiuements Theo. Were they no mans but mine your reasons are weake and euen contemptible which you proclaimed for inuincible but as you heard S. Ambrose did informe you that these men whom S. Paul here toucheth vsed sometimes the Syrian and most times the Hebrew tongue in tractatibus aut oblationibus in their discourses to the people or ministration of the Sacrament as they pleased Phi. In the publike seruice euery man had not his owne speciall tongue his speciall interpretation special reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Theophil In the publike seruice of the church the ministers and Elders which were many both trauelers and there dwellers had euery man his Psalme his instruction his tongue reuelation or interpretation as the spirite of grace thought it most expedient for the setting foorth of Gods glory and the edifieng of their faithes that were present and other order of diuine seruice in the Apostolike and primatiue church wee reade for certaintie of none besides the action of the Lordes supper which the Apostles and so no doubt their churches alwaies vsed in the end of their publik meetings but with not set prayers saue onely the Lordes prayer as Gregorie confesseth the rest of their prayers blessinges and thanksgiuinges were in euery place made by the gift of the holy Ghost inspiring such as were set to teach and gouerne the church And though you haue long since their time framed a Liturgie in Iames name wheron you seeme to ground all the cauils that here are vrged as inuincible arguments yet for so much as the church of Christ did not acknowledge it and the words of Gregory directly impugne it we return that home to the forge whence it came your arguments back to you as wanting both truth strength to beare out your cause Phi. The publike seruice had in it the administration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in the time of this conference Theo. Though the Lordes supper was not ministred at that instant when the Pastors people were intending for doctrine yet did it follow immediatly vpon this exercise finished and due thankes offered to God by the whole church for the redemption of the world in the blood of his sonne neither besides your bold and bare negatiue do we see any cause why the singing blessing and thanksgiuing which S. Paul speaketh of should not be vnderstood to be the prayers and Psalmes that were vsed before after and at the Lordes table this I am sure S. Paul willeth all thinges to be done to edification and all must containe the church seruice ministration of the Sacrament as wel as Psalms or any other exercises of the church So that if the special discourse did not touch the ministration of the Lords supper the general direction doeth comprise it so much the more because the whole church as wel the people as the Preachers as well women as men haue equall interest in the Lords supper to be thereat fed and thereby stirred to giue thanks to God for the richesse of his mercie in the death of Christ. And if you thinke that vnderstanding and consenting is more needful for the people in any other prayers than in those that are made at the Lordes Table you erre not of ignorance but of wilfulnesse and care not what you say so you may entertaine the simple with somewhat for the sauing of your credite Phi Into this exercise were admitted the Catechâ—mens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this weomen before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With manie other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours nowe Theo. You should close vppe the matter with the strongest argument you haue and this is the weakest At their prophesies that was at their sermons and exhortations Infidels and nouices not yet baptized might bee at their mysteries they might not be but were sent away and the doores shut when the faithfull approached to the Lordes Table Hence you may conclude that euery hearer of the woorde may not bee partaker of the diuine mysteries but that the one did not presently followe the other in the Seruice of the Church or that S. Paul did not meane them both you shall neuer conclude yea rather the sending them away that might not bee present argueth that the rest which were left did foorthwith addresse them-selues to the participation of the Lordes Table and that all which was doone in the Church before both exhorting and praying was referred to this end to make them meete commers to that heauenlie banquet Phi. That may bee but S. Paul speaketh of the one and not of the other Theo. That you should prooue if you coulde tell howe Phi. We haue alreadie prooued it by inuincible argumentes Theo. Marie that you haue if blinde surmises and loose sequeles may stand for argumentes otherwise what haue you saide that hath any shewe of proofe I will not saie of inuincible proofe Your maine foundation is a dreame of your owne that the Church of Corinth had a prescribed number and order of prayers pronounced by some one Chaplin that sayde his lesson within booke and might not goe one line besides his Missale for any good This you imagine was their Church Seruice all other prayers Psalmes blessings and thankes-giuings though they were vsed openly in the congregation and the whole people bound to say Amen you will not haue to
bee called Church Seruice And where S. Paul by precept from God commaunded all things in the Church both praying and preaching to be doone in such sort as the people might vnderstand say Amen and be edified thereby you conster that of certaine voluntary prayers which some priuate men made in the Church without commission and of the publike and necessary prayers of the Church you holde opinion the people neede not vnderstand them nor say Amen nor looke to bee edified by them And because S. Paul speaketh of preaching as well as of praying you vse the one as an argument to exclude the other which is very bad logike and worse diuinitie You were as good make this for a reason as I warned you in the beginning Christians in their Churches haue sermons ergo they haue neither prayers nor Sacraments which your selfe censured for a very childish and foolish argument Phi. That is no conclusion of ours Theo. Weigh it well and you shall find it the very same that you make For where the Christians vnder the Apostles had in their assemblies first prophesying that is the declaring of Gods wil and reuealing of his word at the which Infidels and newe conuerts not yâ—t baptized might be present and next prayers and Psalmes to celebrate the goodnes and kindnes of God and to prepare their mindes for the Lordes table to the which all the faithfull came with one consent of heart and voyce giuâ—ng thanks to God for their redemption in Christ and blessing his holy name for al the rest of his graces mercies and compassions on them and this was doone by the mouthes of such Pastours and ministers as it pleased the holy ghost to direct inspire for that function and action the people hearing vnderstanding and confirming their prayers and thankes with saying Amen and other diuine Seruice than this they had none you take one part of the Churches exercise whereat Infidels might be which was preaching and declaring the word of God as a strong inference that Saint Paul in that whole chapter though he expressely name the publike praiers psalmes blessings thankesgiuings of the Church meaneth no part of the Church seruice which if you well consider you shall perceiue to bee captious if not ridiculous sophistrie Philand Though Saint Paul speake of many things yet he speaketh not one woorde of Church-seruice which is the point that wee stand on Theo. I pray you what is Church-seruice but Church prayers Psalmes and lessons which because Saint Paul so distinctly reciteth hee can not choose we say but meane the Church-seruice vnlesse you can shewe what seruice the church had or hath besides these which hee nameth Phi. The ministration of the sacraments is none of these which you specifie and yet the chiefest part of the church-seruice and so are other rites which you omit Theo. In the Church-seruice actions may bee necessarie and Rites may bee seemely of which Saint Paul speaketh not because the abuse which hee reprooued was in their tongues and not in their handes but the Church-seruice is properly that which is doone with the mouth for GOD is not serued with moouing or vsing the handes but our lippes shewe forth his prayse and with our voyces wee cal vpon him and this is more rightly termed diuine seruice which is all one with Church-seruice than any corporall acâ—ions or outwarde gestures though they bee lawfull and some of them needeâ—ull as those for example which Christ commanded And euen in the ministration of the Lordes supper woordes are essentiall as well as elements or actions and without words it is both a dumbe action and a dead element In all sacramentes the word that is spoken is farre superiour to the creature that is seene and in this Sacrament by the first institution of our sauiour thankesgiuing is as requisite as eating or drinking Wherefore if S. Paul tooke order for the praiers psalms blessings and thankesgiuing vsed in the Church that they should be vnderstoode of the people as wel as the Doctrines Reuelations and expositions of scriptures which were an other and a necessarie part of the Churches exercise S. Paul we conclude required that all Church seruice should be pronounced in such â—ort and with such speach as the hearers might bee edified and say Amen which they can not to a tongue that they know not Or if that illation seeme not strong enough S. Paul in plain words commaundeth as authorized from God that all things and therefore Church seruice shoulde bee doone to edification and no man is edified by that he vnderstandeth not which is the fault that we find with your Latine Seruice in our Churches where the people vnderstand no tongue but English Phi. Yeas sir the pople in euery Countrie vnderstandeth our seruice For by the diligence of parents Masters and Curats euery Catholike of age almost can tell the sense of euery Ceremonie of the Masse what to answere when to say Amen at the Priests Benediction when to confesse when to adore when to stand when to kneele when to receiue what to receiue when to come when to depart and all other duties of praying and seruing sufficient to saluation Theo. He that hath no better stay must leaue to a broken staffe or lie in the ground You feared to be conuinced as withstanders of S. Pauls Doctrine and therefore you bethought your selues of an other shift which is as bad as the former The Apostle proueth the praiers of the Church must be vnderstood of the people because they must say Amen thereby teaching vs that no man may say Amen except he both perceiue what is saide and also confesse it to be true for otherwise Amen is both a mocke and a lie to no worse person than to God himselfe He that sweareth or affirmeth any mans speach to bee true when he knoweth not what he said is a liar And he that giueth a sound with his mouth his hart not knowing what he asketh maketh a iest of praier and forgetteth himselfe to be a man And for that cause S. Paul vrgeth it as a manifest absurditie for the people to say Amen to that which they vnderstand not though the ministers speach in it selfe be neuer so good and godly This you saw was so apparent that though you cauiled about Church seruice and craked of your inuincible arguments Yet the clearnes of saint Pauls wordes would reach home to the vnfruitfulnes of your Latin seruice in this Realme For his wordes are How shal the vulgar man say Amen at thy thankesgiuing in the Church seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest And therefore you resolued since you were ouer the shoes in absurdities to goe vp to the shoulders and southâ—astly to say that in euery Countrie euery Catholike of age almost can tell the sense of euery ceremonie of the Masse what to answere where to say Amen at the Priests benediction and all other duties of praying and seruing sufficient to