Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	belong_v	divine_a	great_a	232	4	2.1332	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45835	Vindiciæ veritatis, or, An impartial account of two several disputations the one being on the 12th. and the other on the 26th of February, 1671. between Mr. Danson a non-conformist minister, and Mr. Ives, upon this question, (viz) whether the doctrine of the possibility of some true believers final apostacy, be true, or no? Published to prevent false reports. Together with an appendix; in which the said question is more fully resolved in the affirmative, and the absurd[i]t[i]es of the negative opinion detected from the pens of divers of the patrons of it. By a lover of truth and peace.; Contention for truth	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1672 (1672)	Wing I1106A; ESTC R218068	84,282	219

place and then you shall mannage that Argument if you please and I will spend a little time with you Mr. Fowler I speak as moderator I will not interpose between you here is his Argument Mr. Ives I will not hear you because you argue instead of moderating If you will take his Chair I will hear you I do say Mr. Danson and I appeal to Mr. Fowler whether I do not answer fairly for here is your Argument if none of the sheep of Christ can 〈◊〉 away then no True believer can that is 〈◊〉 medium of his Argument I deny the con●●●tce of the major if the sheep of Christ●●n never perish if I should allow it it doth not therefore follow that no True believer can fall away and the text speaks of the sheep of Christ with reference to that glory they shall have at the day of Judgment and then and there Christ will say to the sheep sit on my right hand and to the goats sit on the other hand for saith he my sheep hear my voice and follow me that is the discriminating character of them and those that do so there is the recompence given them viz. Eternal Life neither shall any pluck them out of Christ's hands and I believe it for neither Death nor Devils can take them away when once he saith to them Come yea blessed Come my sheep Mr. Fowler You must needs think Mr. Ives we know where you are one sober word Do you think that the meaning of the text is this that those that follow Christ shall never perish Do you give this as your Judgment Mr. Ives What if I did say that those that follow Christ shall be saved and never perish What then Is this false doctrine But Mr. Fowler I say Though you do not invade the room yet you do the office of an opponent and I wonder you should pretend your self a moderator while you speak beyond the line of a moderator But in the next place Mr. Fowler you are much mistaken in my interpretation I did not go about to lay the stress of my answer to shew that it was Christ's Argument to prove that they should not perish after they are saved But what if they should tell you so doth not Christ tell us he gives them Eternal Life and doth not he say as a further assurance of their everlasting Inheritance that they shall never perish and what absurdity is in this interpretation But I laid the stress of my Answer in this that there might be a certain number of People that can never perish in this World but God will by interposing grace carry them into the other World and land them there safely for ever which indeed I might believe without wronging what I have asserted but doth this prove that it is true of all believers and that no True believer can fall away because some True believers shall not for why may not I say as St. Augustine and others did that it is impossible for some persons to fall away and yet withall say that it is possible for some True believers to fall away totally and finally Mr. Fowler As for that of St. Augustine he never said that any True believer that had real faith in Christ might fall away Mr. Ives I will I say discourse it with you if you please to take the Chair and if you will not believe me Let Mr. Baxter speak for me he tells us that this was St. Augustine's opinion that some True believers may fall away totally and finally and that he asked Bishop Vsher in the presence of Dr. Kendal whether or no this was not Augustin's opinion and he confessed it was But saith Mr. Baxter least any one should scruple this I shall refer him to these passages following which when Mr. Ives was going to read Mr. Fowler interrupts him Mr. Fowler I will make short work of it you need not read it Here another interposes to Mr. Ives Would you have me dispute with all three It is a strong sign of a weak cause when three Men dispute with one Mr. Fowler This was not St. Augustin's judgment Mr. Ives You must tell Mr Baxter so and not me I believe Mr. Baxter knew as well as Mr. Fowler what St. Augustin's opinion was and so did Bishop Vsher who saith doubtless it was Augustin's opinion Mr. Fowler For Mr. Baxter I suppose you mean in his book of Directions he saith I am not certain that those that sincerely believe and are justified may fall away totally and finally I am sure saith be the Scripture seems to look that way and I am sure the Fathers seem to look that way Now I answer Mr. Baxter in this that the Scripture looks that way and the Fathers but seem to look that way Secondly For St. Augustine any body that is but a little acquainted with Learning knows that he in the business of Pelagius makes a distinction between those that had real and special grace and others And Augustine never said in his Life that any True believer ever fell away totally and finally and he writ a Book particularly of the perseverance of the Saints that they never fall away totally and finally And as for Bishop Usher you wrong that worthy Man Mr. Ives Mr Baxter saith he asked Bishop Usher in the presence of Dr. Kendal whether this was not St. Augustin's opinion and he said undoubtedly it was but if this will not serve I shall give you the quotations them selves Mirandum e● quidem multumque mirandum c. Wonderful it is and much to be wondred at that God to some of his children whom he hath regenerated in Christ and to whom he hath given Faith Hope and Love should not give perseverance Aug. de Corrept grat Cap. 8. Again he saith Ex duobus autem piis c. that of two being both Godly perseverance should be given to the one and not Given unto the other belongs to the unsearchable judgment of God Aug. de bono persev Cap. 8. Mr. Baxter saith it was not only St. Angustin's opinion but it was the opinion of Prosper and Fulgentius and of the Church of God for 13 or 14 hundred years and of most Christians in the World And that the choisest men for Learning and Diligene Holyness and divine Illumination and such as were the great defenders of the grace of God against Pelagius were of this mind that true believers might totally and finally fall away See Mr. Baxter's account of the Saints perseverance Page 5.6.17 c Mr. Ives Mr. Danson you are to prove to me that that in Heb. 8. is spoken of all True believers or this that all the promises that are made to the Israel of God are made to all True believers Mr. Danson I proved it by this Argument if True believers cannot be plucked out of Christ's hand Mr. Ives No if the sheep of Christ cannot be plucked out of Christ's hands then no True believer can I denied that major therefore

God if he should shew the ●me kindness and favour to men in the height of their wickedness as he doth to his most ●oly and mortifyed self denying servants so that Gods abhorring those that depart from him is so far from charging God with changing either in his effence or attributes that he would be changed if he did not do ●t because he hath ingaged his word for it Heb. 10 38. That if any draw back his ●oul shall have no pleasure in them The other absurdity is that the doctrine of the possibility of True believers final a postacy is destructive of all true Christian ●omfort in this matter let Mr. Baxter speak for me though he discent from me in the 19 page of his Treatise of the Saints Perseverance he saith That this doctrine doth not destroy all Christian comfort but a Life of much Christian comfort may be had without assurance of Salvation he means in the sense contended for which saith he I prove from Adams comfort in innocency doubtless the possibility of his fall did not destroy his comfort while he stood Secondly it were unreasonable and uncharitable to think that the ancient Churches that differed in this point had no Christian peace and that such holy men as Augustin and Luther and multitudes more were deprived of Christian peace who have manifested so great confidence and joy both in their lives and writings Thirdly if there be no joy nor peace except we receive it from the certainty of our perseverance then saith he it would follow that exceeding few of those that hold the perseverance of all the justified have joy or peace in believing Fourthly I argu● a pari there is no Son of the wisest and constant Father that is certain he shall persevere in the love and favour of his Parents and that he shall not fall into their very ha● tred and be disinherited by them yet i● doth not follow that therefore all Children should uncomfortably vex themselves with fears lest their Parents should hate them or disinherit them yet or that no Son can from hence take comfort in his Fathers Love and there is no man of the greatest holyness is certain he shall not fall into some fowl sin this is acknowledged by all he is not certain but he may be Drunk as Noah was or incestious as Lot was commit Adultery and Murder as David did deny Christ as Peter did and if you were sure you should fall thus would it not even break your hearts but what must all Christians live in doubts and he uncomfortable because of this you are not certain but you may for such capital crimes be hanged at a Gallows and be made a publick example to the World Yet I hope we may live comfortably for all that and need not trouble our selves with such fears save only by necessary caution to prevent the evil the same grounds therefore that may give you comfort against the fears of such scandalous sins may give them comfort concerning their Salvation who either believe not the doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints or are not certain of their own Sanctification page 22 23. especially as he observes page 22. If we consider the goodness of God's Nature his common mercy to man-kind the fulness and freeness of his grace in Christ the experience of his love both in common and special mercies which abundance of comfortable passages in Scripture all these may do much to the support and comfort of the soul against Apostacy thougt there had been no absolute promise made of the final perseverance of all the justified c. But what are these to the absurdities that follow upon the opinion of the impossibility of True believers falling finally and that will appear if we consider how much it borders upon Antomiauism and the tendency of it to promote Ranterism that it borders upon Antomianism and at some turns strikes hands with it will appear if we do consider the doctrines of the one and the other as we find them Printed and published to the World though possibly by Men otherwise very Godly and learned I shall instead of many that wrote for Antinomianism only mention Dr. Crisp I begin with some passages in his Sermons page 174 175. Let me speak freely saith he and in so doing tell you that the Lord hath no more to lay to the charge of an Elect person in the height of iniquity and in the excess of riot and committing all the abomination that can be commited I say when an Elect person runs such a course the Lord hath no more to lay to the charge of that person then to the charge of a believer nay then to the charge of a Saint triumphant in Glory And in his Sermon called Christ the way pag. 23 24. I give this hint saith he by the way when as I speak of the power of Christ subduing Sin because from the power of it in men they are apt to think their peace depends upon their subduing of sin if their sins be subdued then they think they may have peace and if they cannot be subdued then no peace let Christ have his due it is he alone that speaks peace pag. 113 what ado is here with men about breaking th●●● hearts and forsaking their sins pag. 157. there is a comfortable difference between the new Covenant and all other Covenants the condition in the other Covenants was such that in case Man did fail to perform his condition the Covenant was broke and God was free from giving life but in the new Covenant man is tyed to NO CONDITION that he MUST PERFORM and that if he do not perform it will make the Covenant void to him pag. 189 as the Father looks for NOTHING of Men to partake of Christ so there is NOTHING in Man though NEVER SO VILE that can debar a person from a part in this Christ Again there is not saith he that sinfulness that can be imagined in a creature that can be able to separate or debar any of you from part in Christ even while you are thus sinful Christ may be your Christ pag. 192. Men saith he think righteousness brings them nigh ●o Christ Beloved righteousness is that which puts a man away from Christ stumble not at the expression it is the choice truth of the Gospel Upon which words a sober man cries out O prodigious prophaness it is the foul language of Hell Hell it self hath not a more devilish expression This being on all hands allowed for the height of Antinomianism let us now see how men that would be thought otherwise minded agree with it To this purpose see Mr. Cotton's Treatise of the Covenant of Grace with Mr. Joseph Caryl's Commendatory Epistle to it Printed 1671. pag 91. if a man know himself under the Covenant of Grace then he doth not fear Damnation for his disobedience and pag. 94. A christian doth not fear Livorce for his disobedience for if we look for cursing for our