the truth of God or his imperfectiō the perfection of God Farre be it off yea let God be true everie man a lyer sayth the Apostle in the same place VVe vvill make the matter playne by an example and similitude out of the vvords of Ieremie chap. 3. A vvife being filthie vvith adulteries if her husband vvill pardon her and consent to receiue her and to dvvell vvith her she abideth still the vvife of her husband not by her ovvne deede doone for she hath broken wedlock vvhat in her vvas but by the benefit or goodnes of her husband So a Church overflovving not onely vvith lighter infirmities but also vvith heavie adulteries on her part in deed should cease to be a vvife but she ceaseth not on her husbands part For touching the election as the Apostle sayth Rom. 11.28 she is beloved for the fathers sakes speaking of the church of the Iewes It is a church so long as God calling her proclaymeth that vvhich is in Ier. 3.13 Onely acknowledge thine iniquitie that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God and hast scattered thy waies to the straungers under everie green tree and ye haue not obeyed my voyce sayth the Lord. Turne ô backslyding people sayth the Lord for I am maryed unto you I will take you c. It is so long a church as God protesting calleth upon it departing from him and being rebellious as it is in Esa 50 1. Where is the bil of your mothers divercement wherewith I put her away or who is there of my creditours to whom I sould you c. The church then at length ceaseth to be a church vvhen God ceaseth to call it back taketh avvay the evidence of that holie marriage that is the holie Scripture out of the hand of the adulteres and her that is stubburne testifying that the matrimonie is dissolved on his part and so receiveth the covenant of grace unto himself It is not for any man to deny that to be a church which God calleth a church Neyther is it for any man to call that a church vvhich God having giuen the bil of divorce and taken avvay the draught of the mariage contract denyeth so to be And after this maner doe vve esteeme of the Church in vvhich the papacie is God calleth her vvith his calling by his spirit and vvord and the publike records of that holie mariage vvhich vve call the holie Scripture and the ministerie and things and holy actions vvhich before vve haue briefly reckoned up These things doe remayne to that church most manifestly on Gods behalf But in that on the behalf of men all these things and holie actions together vvith the verie persons themselues abound and overflovve vvith most grievous deadly corruptions that is the sinne of men not the fault of God vvhose grace truth is perfected in infirmitie On Gods part she is yet called Hammi my people and Ruchama finding mercie which most truly on her part might be called Lo hammi not my people and Lo ruchama not obteyning mercie as vve read in Hosea the Prophet But vve rely upon the mercie of God and according to his grace revealed vve speake our minde or vve giue our sentence concerning a church erring and going astray But this Church hath everie thing in it corrupt I confesse it But in that it hath all the divine things in the Scritures it is of God in that it hath them all corrupt that is of it self in that it hath all the divine things it is a church in that it hath the same all corrupt it is a corrupt church The church is not taken avvay by corruption unles it be totall as they speak vvhich they call destruction A corruption that is in part doth not take avvay a Church but vveaken it The Church of Rome hath all things corrupt but not altogether this is not a destruction but is to be called a corruption of it in part For to prosecute these heads particularly vvhich vvee haue briefly noted in the consideration of the Church God by the alone presence of himself calling doth lay the foundation of the Church in Christ the head thereof The church of Rome addeth another foundation to this foundation and to this head another nevv head vvhereupon it is called papall or popish vvherein it may likevvise rest The calling is to God alone in the church of Rome there is calling to others vvith God and the calling upon them Here is calling by the spirit and Scripture alone vvhence it receiveth the ministerie delivereth nothing more thē that vvhich it hath received from the Lord there it receiveth a ministerie from the spirit of Christ of the Pope from the Scripture and the ragged traditions of men here finally the persons things and actions are caried according to the doctrine of the Spirit the Scripture onely there all things are taken and exercised out of the Popes changeable shoppe and at his beck as they say they stand and fall So all the marks on Gods behalf are in it but for it self on it ovvne part as they say there is no marke intire no marke that is not corrupt by the papall poysonfull sorcerie and the order of all things most miserably perverted For vvhich cause in Lyons in France a certayne Frier did merrily preach to the people vvhen he sayd the Hugonots for so they are called in France did consent vvith the church of Rome in all their articles of fayth but there was one shrevvd vvord the vvord Onely at the crack vvhereof vvarre vvas inkindled for they beleeue onely vvhat the rule of fayth hath out of the holie Scriptures but the church of Rome requireth more unto fayth then is eyther conteyned in the rule of fayth or in the holie Scriptures because such is the authoritie of the Church These things being vvell understood all men vvill easely perceiue hovv that church in respect of God or on Gods part is yet a church but of it self is most corrupt very nere to destruction But here doe arise tvvo doubts difficulties by vvhich the mindes of many are troubled The first doubt is vvhat vve are to judge of the members of that church The latter vvhat the dutie of them is vvho are in that church and see the great corruptions thereof To the first question we ansvver on this manner A threefold judgment had neede meet together in this cause the first of truth the second of charitie the third of prudence or vvisdome The judgment of truth is of the common condition of the church by vvhich vve judge frō the calling of God that as yet she is a church The judgement of charitie is of the severall mēbers of the church by vvhich we presume they be members of the church whilst they are called vvith the calling of God and are in this way as David calleth it Psal 2. The judgement of prudence or vvisdome is that by vvhich vve discerne and distinguish persons things
52.53.54 testifyeth that all such as haue received any of those false Offices of Lordbishops Priests c. are to give over and leaue them and so hath it been practised heer before by all such Priests as came to our fayth Church now one is Minister over them ordeyned Priest by the Prelates as is before said 6. The 33 article which our Apologie also confirmeth page 45. professeth that people being come forth of the Antichristiā estate c. are vvillngly to joyne together in Christian communion and orderly covenant to unite themselues into peculiar and visible congregations c. These haue pleaded that all are bound to communion by vertue of their baptisme received in the Church of Rome or other Antichristiā assemblies 7. The 35 article confirmed also in our Apologie page 46.47.48 professeth that a people so joyned together may proceede to choise ordination of Officers c. Now these pleade that the people may not proceede to ordination of Officers except they haue Officers before to doe it 8. In our Apologie page 113 it vvas maynteyned to be grosse errour and notorious absurditie eyther to hold the Popish Church to be a true Church having a true Ministerie and true Sacraments or els that men are unbaptised must admit of the Anabaptists rebaptisation These haue themselues much objected to us that eyther the Church and Baptisme of Rome is true or else we must be rebaptised Both which we still deny 9. The 38 article of our Confession professeth that Congregations are by all meanes convenient to haue the counsel help one of another in all needfull affaires c. The practise of this was was denyed when in our greatest need trouble they would not consent to haue the coūsel help of the English Church at Leyden which professeth the same fayth with us 1. Before our parting vve offered that notvvithstanding our differences of judgment that vve vvould continue together if our former practise might be reteyned but this vvas refused 2. We desired that then we might haue a peaceable parting and to be tvvo distinct Congregations each practising as they vvere persvvaded yet nourishing brotherly loue and unitie This also they vvould not agree to unlesse vvee vvould leaue this citie 3. We procured though vvithout their consent the help of the English Church at Leyden vvho laboured our peace a waie of peace by these themselues propounded by the Church of Leyden us agreed to these after reversed stood not unto unlesse vve vvould goe dvvell out of this Citie And although in the treatie of the Agreement it vvas testifyed by the Elders of that Church that unlesse it vvere to the apparant undoing of us and of our families vve should not be dismissed againe to dwell here yet because vve would not absolutely promise to leaue this Citie they vvould not stand to the agreement vvhich themselues had mad◠THese are the Articles Objections that are in the printed copie aforesayd VVhich therefore vve had not thought to haue printed againe But vvhen vve had finished this book vve received out of England from another friend another of M. A. his letters sent thither vvherein these also are set dovvne in this maner order and in the same vvords vvith very litle alteration thereof VVe considered also that in the Ansvver here follovving there is often reference made to the printed copie of these Articles and Exceptions and that therefore it vvould be good for the Reader to haue thē here readie at hand VVhereupon vve thought it not amisse to print thē again and to advertise those that haue the books to insert them betvveen C. D. if it be not alreadie done to their hands Novv follovveth the Ansvver vvhich vvas first made to the former letter according to the sixe particulars thereof but is since inlarged by reason of this printed copie aforesaid Concerning vvhich also vve could note ansvver more and other things then novv vve haue done in this shortnes of time As about some speciall respects uses in some cases to be had of the Fathers of families or of the chiefest fittest of them as upon occasion some of us spake in the reasoning had among us Also that vvheras they vvould seem in their letters exceptions as if they had desired peace and accord vvith us yet besides all the things noted hereafter about their dealing Pag. 74.75 c. this also is remembred that vvhen vve vvere treating of some vvaie of accord some of them publikly sayd they vvould never yeeld thereunto unles vve vvould revoke our agreement about the understanding of Mat. 18.17 and that also as an errour VVhich vve could not yeelde unto as may be perceived by the agreement it self vvhich is hereafter set dovvne page 95.96 c. But omitting novv to speak any further of these or other things that might also be noted about their objections and dealing vve vvill for the present onely desire the Reader about the particulars still to remēber that vvhich sometimes vve haue mentioned here Pag. 44. 45. c that extraordinarie cases must haue their vvarrant accordingly that the things concerning a people vvithout officers vvere left to further consideratiō among us needed not by us novv be stood upon seeing our estate question vvas of the ordinarie government of a Church established vvith Officers For vvhich also see the Treatise on Mat. 18.17 tovvard the end thereof And novv read the ansvver of the foresayd letters and objections as here it follovveth AN ANSVVER TO the writing and exceptions aforesaid sent to the same partie by Mr. Fr. Io. VVhereunto he hath also added some things more upon occasion of the other copie lately printed TOwching them that haue divided them selues from us and M. A. vvriting unto you therabout there are divers things of weight which you should do well carefully to observe And first how they having left us upon two particular matters concerning the Churches government and the exposition of Mat. 18.17 they doe not directly keep unto them as they ought neyther answere the things printed thereabout so long since VVhereunto both vve and all that loue the truth and desire their conversion must be carefull to keep hold thē And even by this their dealing it may appeare how needfull that our publication of the matter was both for manifestation of the truth held by us for meeting with their clamours and all their disorderly and unapproveable courses so much affected by them Secondly it must be remembred that our profession alwaie hath been and must be to have the word of God for our direction in all things by it to trie all things to keep that vvhich is good and to refuse and redresse whatsoever is evill or any way erring therefrom For which see the Praeface of our Confession at the end of it And in the Apologie pag. 13. 41 as also the Answer to Thomas White pag. 36. So as there is
rejoycing one vvith another 1 Cor. 12 22-26 And furthermore hovv it vvas also affirmed that in cases of question and controversie the greater part of the people though vvithout against all the Elders and other brethren are the bodie and the Church there spoken of yea though they be in errour c. And novv in their exceptions pleading about it they speak of the whole Congregation and of the bodie of the Congregation in an opposition against the Eldership and so seeme here to imply also such an understanding thereof Touching all which it were long to rehearse eyther what reasoning vve had or vvhat might be shevved about these poynts But some fevve things I vvill note thereabout And first if this rule befound in the book of Numbers and lavves of Israel as by the doctrine allegations aforesaid appeareth then is it not a nevv rule first given in Mat. 18.17 as vvas held and urged both often and earnestly among us Secondly these Scriptures in the book of Numbers speak of civil cases and government and yet vvhen vve alledge these or the like about the Elders as they doe about the people they except against us as if vve misapplyed the Scriptures and give the Elders civill authoritie vvhich I suppose they vvill not give to the people though they make such allegations about them in this question as vve doe about the Elders Num. 15.33 27.2 35.12 Thirdly touching these Scriptures and the like it is certaine that the sinners and pleas in Israel vvere brought before the Congregation of Elders to be judged by them as may appeare by these Scriptures them selves being compared vvith Num. 36.2 Deut. 19.12.17 and 1.12.16 and 16.18 and 17 8-12 Iosh 20.4.5.6 1 Sam. 2.25 2 Chron. 19 5-11 Psal 82 1-6 Mat. 5.22 Lnk. 22.66 Act. 6.12 c. Moreover Num. 15.33 and 27.2 tvvo of the Scriptures alledged speak of the people of Israel vvhen they vvere in the wildernes vvhere they vvere sixe hundred thousand men beside children Exod. 12.37 And would they have us thinke that this people came together to hear examine and judge the cases of sinne and question there spoken of or that the parties there mentioned were brought or came unto all that Congregation as they vvould have the causes of sinne and sinners to be brought unto the vvhole Church and congregation among us yea and the people to be bound to come judge the brethrens causes that doe fall out from time to time And for the third Scripture so alledged by them Num. 35.12 if it be compared vvith Deut. 19 4-12 it maketh the poynt yet more playne against them selues For Moses speaking of one and the same matter in both those places Num. 25.12 useth in the one place the vvord Congregation in the other the terme of Elders as if he vvould himself tell us that he speaks of the Congregation of Elders Deut. 19.12 To vvhich end also see Iosh 20.4.5.6 where the same matter is againe spoken of Deut. 19 15-18 vvhere after the treating of the former matter he giveth a generall rule for the cases that might fal out among them And vvhether novv vve should beleeve Moses or them let themselves judge Touching the phrase of the Kingdome of heaven Mat. 18.1 c. Mat. 18.1 c. hovvsoever many have ben caryed thereby to think that this is a nevv rule and perteyning onely to the Churches of the Gospel since Christ and that the people now are otherwise interessed in the Churches government then they vvere in Israel of old yet it is evident that the same phrase is also spoken of the state and Church of the Ievves Mat. 22.2 c. and that therefore such collections from this manner of speach are not sound And vvhat is there here taught by Christ that the Iewes should not be carefull to observe asvvell as vve Should not they be humble and harmlesse as litle children and so enter into the kingdome of heaven Mat. 18 1-4 with Psal 131.1.2 Prov. 15.33 and 16.19 and 18.12 and 25.6.7 1 Sam. 12.3.4 Psal 138.6 Should they not avoyd giving offiences to others vvhen others offended thē should they not deale with them and shevve them their sinne And if they did not repent and amend bring them to the Congregation of Elders to be further dealt vvith according to their demerit Or if they did repent forgive them Mat. 18 5-22 with Lev. 19.14.16.17.18 Deut 19 15-19 and 21 18-21 and 25 5-9 with Ruth 3 9-13 and 4 1-13 1 Sam. 2.25 Esa 58.6.7 And further in the same chapter it may be observed Mat. 18.23 c. that Christ teaching hovv God requireth men to forgive one another their sinnes under the similitude of a king taking account of his servants propoundeth it by the same phrase of the kingdome of heaven And this also is a dutie vvhich God required of the Ievves alvvayes asvvell as of us novv Lev. 19.18 Exod. 23 4.5 Psal 7.4 Act. 7 26. And in the next chapter Mat. 19.13.14 Christ speaking of litle childrē that vvere brought unto him sayth that of such is the kingdome of heaven VVhich vvas alvvayes true of the infants and children of the Ievves as of ours novv But if any vvould gather hereupon for babes and litle children as some doe for the men vvomen greater childrē upon the like maner of speach that therefore they are to have a hand in the Churches government and that the causes of sinne and question falling out in the church should be brought unto them asvvell as to the Elders and they bound to be present to hear and judge all such causes arising among the brethren I suppose the people them selves that hold the former opinion and make such collections to maynteyne it for the vvhole Congregation yet vvould think it absurd thus to reason about the lesser children although they be of the bodie of the Congregation that of such also is the kingdome of heaven Againe in the next chapter save one Mat. 21.43 Matthevv sheweth hovv Christ sayd that the kingdome of God should be taken from the Ievves and given to the Gentiles a nation that should bring forth the fruits thereof Mat. 21 43. So as then by the doctrine of Christ himself it is one and the same kingdome of God under vvhich the Ievves vvere vve novv are The differences about some vvorldly ceremoniall and mutable things neyther doe nor can carrie vvith them an abolition of the things spirituall morall and perpetuall Neyther may vve at any hand or under any pretence suffer our selves to be made aliants from the common vvealth of Israel as is noted before For the other Scripture 1 Cor. 12. chap. 1 Cor. 12 chap. the Apostles purpose is not there to speak of the cases and pleas about sinne and of the maner of dealing therein as in Mat. 18.15 16 17. and as our question vvas among us but of the diversitie and inaequalitie of gifts
Scriptures thus alledged by them The other is a thing vvhich M. Ainsvv hath vvel observed about Idolatrie that it is a sinne which cleaveth fast to all flesh Arrowe against Idol ch 2 p. 23. c. so as the best in the world doe easily fall into it doe take pleasure in it and are hardly drawen from it An example vvhereof may be seen in the people aforesaid vvho being caryed vvith the love of their errour about the matter spoken of vvould chuse bondage afore libertie yea and a bondage accompanyed vvith many other evils ensuing upon men vvomen and children rather then they vvould be dravven from the errour and Idol set up in their heart But I hope their children if not themselves vvill in time grovv vviser hovv ever in other things it be too common that the children remember their fathers altars and Idols as the Prophet Ieremiah said of the people in his dayes Ier. 17.2 Let me also about the matters themselves concerning the greater part of the people the vvhole Congregation or bodie thereof the men vvomen and children of yeares pleaded to be the Church spoken of Mat. 18 17. desire to knovv by vvhat Scriptures they vvill novv manifest and confirme it to such as are othervvise mynded If they speak of 1 Cor. 5 chap. as some doe that is purposely handled in the treatise on Mat. 18.17 as also if the vvomen and children should in a controversie be the greater part whether then they be the Church there spoken of have the Churches power and authoritie to excommunicate the men and vvhether these persons divided not them selves from the Church vvhen they left us seeing vve vvere the greater number both of the Elders and people vvhom they departed from Also vvhether the Elders be of the bodie of the Congregation vvhereof they speak or not for here they seeme to make an opposition betvveen the bodie of the Congregation and the Eldership And if they be vvhat place they have in the bodie vvhether a superiour or inferiour place And vvhether in the Congregation and presence of them the vvomen and children have authoritie by vertue of that rule Mat. 18.17 to examine rebuke and admonish their husbands parents masters being there dealt vvithall for sinne seeing the Church is told and the vvomen and children are of the Church and they that are of the Church there spoken of may examine admonish are to be heard obeyed c. Neyther let them thinke much that I propound such questipns or that I speak thus about vvomen and children c. For they knovv that such assertions and pleading vve have had from them and that such opinions are among them And vve knovv that if they ansvver directly to the things here and before propounded the truth vvill better appear and the controversie be sooner ended between us And what they hold mainteyn concerning these things is needefull for us still to insist upon seeing that about the understanding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17 they have so dealt and left us as they have done Other things I vvill omit that might here also have their place and use noting this onely that it is a straunge extraordinarie case whē a controversie should so stand as all the Elders should be one vvay all the people another way And in extraordinarie cases the course and warrant from the vvord of God must accordingly be had But vvhat is this to the ordinarie maner of government in the Church vvhereof the question vvas among us vvhereabout it vvas particularly mentioned at the beginning that our reasoning should be Lastly vvhat vveight is there in this exception of theirs against our understanding of Mat. 18.17 more then might be against Israel of old vvho could understand such speaches of the Congregation of Elders vvithout impeaching any libertie of the people or falling into any errour against the truth But I have spoken hereof before and of this matter more largely then I purposed though yet not so largely as I might considering the point it self and hovv they have caryed themselves thereabout Novv I vvill come to the next Objection For the second vvhich concerneth excommunication by a people without officers I have in the foresaid Treatise vvritten particularly thereabout Treat on Mat. 18.17 vvhere also I have treated purposely and largely of the place of the Apologie vvhich they have here alledged so as that should first have ben ansvvered afore they had thus dealt as they have done especially seeing that there I desired ansvver confirmation of that opinion vvriting in this sort about it Where finde we in the Scriptures that God hath thus laid upon the people without Officers to excommunicate Where is the precept for it Which be the examples of it Or what are the grounds requiring and bearing it out In the same place also I noted that in the Scriptures we may observe not onely sundry exāples shewing how it hath ben done by the Lord himself and by his ministers and Officers but also divers ordinances grounds directing and warranting us to doe likewise The particulars vvhereof see in that Treatise vvith divers other considerations and reasons thereabout VVhich might have caused them eyther to ansvver us or at least as there is noted to consider vvith themselves how the Churches excommunication can be administred by any but such as are the Lords and the Churches Officers and Overseers and how people without Officers can chalendge to themselves the ministration of this any more then of the Sacraments c. And besides you may percēive both by our churches estate and by particular note set dovvn in the said Treatise that our controversie vvas about a Church established with Officers and that it vvas before our parting agreed among us to leave the things concerning people without Officers to further consideration To vvhich also I do still referre it Onely where he sayth here that our doctrine overthrowes the constitution of our Church which was gathered and constituted by Christians without Officers receiving in the repentant and casting out the disobedient c. I vvill hereupon note a fevve things briefly to shevve the errour and vveaknes of their exception herein And first omitting vvhat is sayd before it vvere vvorth the knovving by vvhom or by vvhat Church the first man or first tvvo men of this Church whereof they speak vvere received in and by what povver Secondly it is knovven and not to be forgotten Eph. 4.4.5 1 Cor. 10.1 2. and 12 13. Act. 2.41.42 that by our baptisme as also by accord in the truth vve are bound to communion in any thing lavvfull as God giveth occasion opportunitie thereunto vvhich thing vvas heretofore shewed unto them though yet they have not learned it as they should Thirdly it is also playne and uudenyable that to chuse or give voyces in election is not a part of governement or a dutie peculiar to the governours of the Church but an interest
repentance follovves them sometymes with judgment sometymes vvith mereie and compassion c. Levit. 26 15-45 Ezech. 16 59-62 Iudg. 2 1-20 c. Thus in Israel vvho vvere the Lords people it may be noted how they goe a whoring after their ovvne inventions fall into idolatrie and false vvorship runne into sinne after sinne and become an harlot transgressing the covenant on their part Exod. 32. Iudg. 2. and 3. with Psa 78 56-58 1 Sam. 7 3 4. 1 King 12 28-33 and 14.22.23.24 with 2 Chron. 12. and 13. and 1 King 19.10 Hos 6.7 and 8.1 Yet the Lord breaks it not on his part but sometymes of himself sometymes at the intreatie of his prophets servants he spareth them and doth not destroy them or presently give them a bill of divorce according to their demerit but in his mercie as a loving husband he cals them to repentance and to that end he sends unto them Prophets after Prophets a long tyme to dravve thē to amendement and cals them still his people and helps them and casts thē not of Yet so as besides his vvord sent unto them he also adjoyneth corrections punishmments both for avenging the quarrel of his covenant upon them and for procuring their conversion by all maner meanes vvhat may be As in the books of Moses and historie of the Iudges Samuel Kings and Chronicles compared vvith the Prophets may be seen And particularly in the Scriptures here noted before and the like as Exod. 33. and 34. c. Levit. 26 14.15-25-42-44.45 Iudg. 2.1 c. Psal 78. 1 King 13. and 16. and 18. 2 King 5.8.15.17 with Ier. 51.5 and Ezech 16.59.60 c. Hoseas and Amos their Prophecies c. And in these tvvo divers respects sometymes having reference to God sometymes to Israel may there many things in the Scriptures be observed to be spoken diversly For example Israel considered in themselues and their idolatrous estate are sayd to be vvithout God vvithout Priest to teach and vvithout lavv to forsake and break the covenant of the Lord to provoke the Lord to anger by their vanities not to be the Lords vvife but an harlot going a vvhoring after their ovvne inventions and having childrē of vvhooredomes yea and that the Lord is not with Israel or vvith any of Ephraim 2 Chron. 15.3 1. King 12.28.33 and 15.34 and 16 13.26.31-33 and 19.14 Hose 2 1-5 and 5.3.4 and 8.1 and 9.1 with Psalm 106.29.39 Ezech. 16. and 23. chap. 2 Chron. 25.7 But agayne being considered in respect of the Lord and his covenant into vvhich they vvere received and vvhich he breakes not on his part but calls them to repentance c. the Lord is called their God and they are called the people of the Lord and their children borne to the Lord and Israel not to have ben a vvidovve forsaken of God but that the Lord had mercie on them and pitied them and respected them because of his covenant vvith Abraham Isaac and Iacob and that he vvould not destroy them nor cast them off from him as yet c. And thus continued Israel a long tyme respected of the Lord notvvithstanding her apostasic c. Iudg. 2 1. c. 1 King 18 36. 2 King 9 6 Hos 4.6 12. and 5 4. and 7 10. and 8 2. 9 1. 14.1 2. Amos 7 15. with Psal 89 30-34 and Ezech. 16 20 60. and Ier. 51.5 and 2 King 13 23. Yet notvvithstanding in these tymes the Prophets taught the people to plead vvith their mother about her adulteries to separate themselves and not to come at the places of their vvorship nor to communicate vvith them and bring their sacrifices thither because in so doing they should multiply their transgressions c. Hos 2 1-5 and 4 12.14.15 Amos 4 4 5. and 5 4 5. And all these things are vvritten for our learning are to be applyed to the estate of the Churches in apostasie under the Gospel since Christ Rom. 15 4. with 1 Cor. 10.11 Moreover besides that the vvord Church is taken sometymes more largely sometymes more strictly vvhich about this question likevvise may be observed there is yet further also a double regarde that may be had of apostate Churches in all ages according as they are considered and spoken of in comparison with other people of divers sorts As namely Israel in apostasie being compared vvith the Syrians Philistims Moabites and other nations are called and ought to be accounted the people of God vvho have the onely true God for their God c. 2 King 3.8 15.17 and 9 6. c. But being compared vvith Iudah vvhich ruled vvith God and vvas faythfull vvith the Saincts she is called an harlot not the vvife of God but a vvhoore committing adulterie and compassing God about vvith lyes and deceit c. Hos 2.2.5 4 15. 5.3 4. and 9 1. and 11.12 c. In like maner the Church of Rome in apostasie being compared vvith the Ievves Turkes and Pagans they are and ought to be accounted Christians and the Temple of God VVhere also is verified that which the Apostle spake of Antichrists sitting in the Temple of God 2 Thes 2.4 not the Temple of Ierusalem as some to turne away the truth have imagined but the Temple of Christians the Church of God brought to the sayth of Christ and professing to be Christians as may appeare by these scriptures and the like compared together 2 Thes 2.4 with Ezech. 43.7.8 Zath 6.12.13 Ephes 2 11-13.19 21. 2 Cor. 6.16 Rev. 11.19 and as it is also under stood by all sound writers both old and new But agayne being compared vvith the auncient Church of Rome and other primitive Churches in the Apostles tymes and such as novv vvalke in their steps and in the good and old vvay ruling vvith God and abyding faythfull vvith his saincts she is called and is to be esteemed an harlot the great vvhoore the mother of the whooredomes and abhominations of the earth beleeving speaking lyes in hypocrisie giving heed to seducing spirits and having pleasure in unrighteousnes c. Revel 17.1.5 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 2 Thes 2 3-10 11.12 And thus there being in divers respects a double consideration had of the Church of Rome novv as of Israel heretofore it vvill appeare hovv in one respect it may be sayd there is the Church of God or a true Church there in another respect there is an apostate or a false Church there as it is sayd by the Apostle of one and the same woman that she is dead and alive in divers respects 1 Tim. 5.6 And of the Iewes that they are enimies in one respect and yet beloved in another Rom. 11 28. So Iohn Baptist is Elias and is not Elias in divers respects Iohn 1 21. with Mat. 11 7-14 and 17 10-13 Iudas is an Apostle and yet a divel Mat. 10.2 4. Ioh. 6.70 The Ievves are the children of Abraham and yet the children of the divel Ioh. 8.33.34 As the Prophets also
hovv to come to a good issue thereabout And thus themselues vvill not deny that the thing it self spoken of in the Confession vvas in this sort observed by us as is aforesayd But hovv did they observe it themselues vvhen they brake away and left us vvhiles vve vvere vvriting one to another the other Church and we concerning the matters propounded and fallen out betvveen us hereabout Of vvhich I shall haue occasion to speak more hereafter when first I haue noted a few things further about the former matter concerning our selues the Article spoken of For our selues besides the other things aforesayd vve signified also that vve vvould not refuse to conferre reason vvith the brethren of Leyden at any tyme about the matter in hand so as their comming vvere eyther of them selues or by the request of them here that desired it and vvithout our approbation for the reasons spoken of c. And accordingly vvhen they came hither Their Elders with consent of the rest vve performed it notwithstanding any thing that had passed before about these things For the Article it self obserue the clauses in it and the Scriptures cited for confirmation of it For the clauses in it note hovv it is sayd Conf. aâ—t 38. that every particular Congregation is as a compact and knitt citie in it self and therefore should use all good and lavvfull meanes that may further their compacting and knitting together in the truth and coÌ„mon fayth but not any such as may cause or at least colour the dividing of them asunder Also that the churches should all walk by one and the same rule and by all meanes convenient have the counsell and help one of another in all needfull affaires of the Church as members of the same bodie in the coÌ„mon fayth under Christ their onely head If this then be a rule for us it is so likevvise for all other Churches that vvhen there falleth out question about an errour among theÌ„ they should desire the counsel and help of such Churches thereabout as they knowe to be corrupted vvith the same errour and not purposed to leave it but to defend it supposing it to be the truth And vvhat conveniencie it vvere not to speak of the lavvfulnes of it or hovv needfull to call such as vve knovve to be in errour that so our people might eyther be the more corrupted or have the more colour for their errour evill dealing you may consider vvith your self Or if vve had sent for them or approved it might we not haue ben accessarie to the meanes by vvhich the truth might haue ben hindred and our people more confirmed in errour And vvhere then is the vvarrant for such vvalking For the Scriptures that are cited for confirmation of the Article aforesaid first observe about the point of difference betvveen us hovv the Scriptures of the old Testament are alledged asvvell as of the nevv and those also coÌ„cerning the estate of Israel applyed to our tymes and cases novv Secondly consider vvhether those Scriptures intend or vvill vvarrant a Church to send for such or to desire their counsel and help vvhom they knovv to be in errour about the poynts questioned and dealt in and by whoÌ„ the parties that trouble the church may be more strengthned in their errours and evils thereabout VVhich if they doe or if any other doe it that are not cited here then ought vve and all to yeeld thereunto Othervvise if the help and courses desired be not such as are approved in the vvord of God we might tempt God in atteÌ„pting of them and therefore must be carefull to follovv that onely which hath warrant from thence whereby the truth may be furthered the safetie and libertie of the Church preserved and occasion cut off from theÌ„ that desire occasion thereagainst And besides the things aforesaid vvhy did not themselues also desire to haue the counsel and help of the Dutch and French Churches that vvere here at hand round about us If they say because they thought they vvere in errour about the matter in question and so might haue hindred the truth and haue ben against them and for us then by it may be perceived vvhat their ovvne judgment is about this particular being simply considered in it self and in this behalf what the waight of this their exception is against us If they aunsvver any other thing it may accordingly be considered of as it shall be found to be And hitherto concerning the Article aforesaid and sundrie particulars that passed betvveen us by this occasion not spoken of by them Now touching the three particulars annexed to the ninth objection in the printed copie the first is that before their parting they offered that notwithstanding our differences of judgment they would continew together if our former practise might be reteyned VVhich is as if they should say they vvould haue continued vvith us if vve vvould haue continewed in errour and evil so found and acknovvledged by us suffring the ordinance of God touching the Eldership to be troden under foot the Elders to be despised abused by the people and the vvhole Church to be continually subject to contentions and scandals c. Besides vvhy doe they not also mention vvhat vve offered to theÌ„ vvhich seeing they speak not of vve will namely that before their parting vve offred to beare vvith them in their difference of judgment if they vvould be content to walke peaceably vvith the Church in that their difference but this vvas refused The next particular they speak of is that then they desired a peaceable parting to be two distinct Congregations each practising as they were perswaded yet nourishing love unitie A peaceable parting we graunt they desired in vvord but in deed stayed not vvith us but departed vvhiles vve vvere considering and advising vvhether it could lavvfully be effected or not And touching that particular of being two distinct Congregations of us in this citie c. we shewed them divers reasons vvhy vve could not in this case agree thereunto And of those reasons vve had speach vvith theÌ„ here and vvrote to the Church of Leyden signifying vvithall that if vve could otherwise better discerne vvhat vvere according to the vvill of God herein vve should God vvilling so receiue and vvalk VVhich letter vvith the reasons therein conteyned is hereafter noted dovvne Yet notvvithstanding they stayed not till we had an answer thereof from Leyden but soone after departed from us Besides that other meanes also vvas used by writing vvhich might at least haue perswaded them to stay and doe othervvise then they did Of vvhich I shall also speak more hereafter The third particular is about their procuring the help of the English Church at Leyden without our consent of vvhich I haue spoken here before about a waie of peace propounded by us agreed unto by the Church of Leyden our selues and yet afterward reversed by us c. Touching vvhich they doe here as before
omit divers things needful to be knowē and remembred As first vvhat the thing it self is that was propounded by us namely that for such as could not be content with protestation peaceably to walke with eyther Church at Leyden or here it should be free for them to goe from the one Church and Pastor to the other so as there were no other cause lying against them This vvas in deed propounded by my self having much thought and considered vvhat I could of any lavvfull meanes by vvhich we might come to some good end and agreement after our so long and lamentable troubles and contentions as vve had ben exercised withall VVhich when I had propounded they of Leyden answered that they were glad to hear of such a motion litle thinking that we had ben so inclyning to peace and agreement This to my remēbrance was the effect of the things that passed here about which if they had thought they should haue caryed themselues otherwise towards us then they had done And for the thing it self that they would consider of it with their Church and if eyther they or we mynded otherwise by the word of God that we should signify it VVhich caution being thus spoken of by them my self then said as I remember that I had thought so to haue spoken also concerning it but had forgottē when I spake to mention it And so then it vvas minded of us both to be considered of and prosequuted vvith this condition and limitation of being found lawfull by the word of God And let this for hereafter be still remembred because it vvill cleare all the question about this matter Secondly at the first treating of this matter between us the Officers of the Church of Leyden then present did so conceiue it as that our people which would not walk with this Church as is aforesaid should goe and remayne vvith them at Leyden VVhich some of them here observing excepting against it in respect of their meanes of living had here c. they were answered by them of Leyden that they must be cōtented to suffer or beare the crosse of Christ vvith them or to such effect Then also concerning the course aforesaid there vvas noted a double consideration about it The one about the doing of it so The later is the poynt which they doe so much urge as to live and remayne with the other Church whither they should goe The other about the doing of it so as that having once gone and joyned thewselues to the other Church they might then returne agayne to the towne where they lived before and there live apart from the Church whereof they had formerly ben And hereupon having speach about these tvvo courses the first vvas sooner conceired of and generally liked of all the latter vvas lesse conceived of and more called in question as aftervvard did appeare though for myne ovvn part I did my self so minde and like of it at that time And vvhen some among us propounded that such as vvent from us to Leyden and joyned to that Church should not be dismissed back by them againe to live apart from us in this tovvne both my self and the Elders of the other Church to my remembrance answered that this matter vvould concerne that Church to which they should joyne to look unto and so vvas to be left unto them But afterward considering yet further of the lavvfulnes of such dismission thither hither agayne I shewed my minde herein to be altered divers reasons thereabout Of vvhich I shall speak hereafter vvhen I come to that matter Thirdly vvhen the matters aforesaid vvhich vve had propounded vvere communicated vvith the Church at Leyden and their Elders returned hither againe they signifyed that these things came sodainly upō their Church yet for the present as they could in that tyme cōsider thereof they liked vvell of it or to such effect So now againe at this tyme we had more speach together thereabout The former of the tvvo courses as I said before vvas generally vvell approved and consented unto The latter vvas more doubted of and more question made about it in the end more more disliked by divers the more that it was perceived to be the brethrens purpose so to doe And this most appeared the next morning when the likelyhood of agreement that vvas the night before was then so changed upō further reasoning and consideration thereof as we could not accord therabout And so the Officers of the other Church signifying that they had great occasion to returne home and could then no longer stay departed and said it vvould be heavie to their Church to heare that the things vvere come to no better issue between us Yet vvhen they were gone we still continued speach among our selues about these things being sorie that they stood thus and that no better tidings should be caried to the other Church And then upon some speach so had together as vve could in that short time we came to this issue that we thought it best to agree upon the matter aforesaid in this sort that whatsoever blame should follovve hereupon if our people vvere by them of Leyden dismissed to liue here apart from us in this citie it should lye upon them and vve be free of it And so thereupon we presently sent three vvith this message after the brethren of Leyden if they could overtake them in tyme to signifie thus much unto them that they might also signifie it unto their Church And this I thinke is the agreement spoken of VVhich vvhen it vvas in this manner agreed upon some of the brethren present there being then but a sevv at that tyme came to the Elders shewing hovv they thought it needfull that this should be spoken of the Lords day after others say to this day they never consented unto it and some that they said then it vvas unlavvfull And these men thē selues it may be vvould be loth to stand to their ovvn positions about it that in a controversie the greater part should be the Church whether the Elders be vvith them or against them and that the matters of sinne and question touching the brethren should be heard and ended on the Lords day But I vvill proceede on to other matters that follovved aftervvard about these things Fourthly vvhiles things stood thus mōg us we had the Lords day following speach hereabout againe at vvhich tyme there vvas a nevv motion made for an other course to be taken by which we might keep together rather then to part asunder according to the other course spoken of VVhich being then propounded and not agreed upon vvas left to further consideration And so that week vvee wrote to the Church of Leyden thereabout By vvhich occasion after the aforesaid treating of these things had by vvord of mouth there passed also some letters betvveen us concerning them VVhich although in divers respects vve could be willing to keep among our selues yet considering in vvhat
doubt but if the thing which they purposed here had gone forvvard vvith our consent it would aftervvard haue ben much abused against us by others if not also by theÌ„selues specially as it appeared still more more to be in deed intended by them the thing being such as although it had never ben thought or spoken of among us yet it vvould in a matter of this waight haue ben found a great oversight But it being spoken of and manifested that they vvould but goe to the other Church to joyne unto them there then presently returne hither agayne to remayne and liue here in the same tovvne apart from us of vvhom they vvere vvhat vvould this haue proved in deed but scandal and collusion and haue ben turned upon us vvith the more reproch because vve consented unto it As for that other clause in their letter where they write that the agreement should be reversed with the mutuall consent of both Churches note that this vvas their propounding thereof unto us vvhich vve vvere to consider of vvhether vve vvould assent unto it or not And that in all such cases wherein it may fall out that eyther sinne may be coÌ„mitted or the truth hindred or the libertie of the Church impeached it behoveth all carefully to take heed vvhat they consent and yeeld unto yea that if any conditions or agreements are made vvhich can not vvithout sinne be performed it is better to breake then to keep them Lastly obserue here hovv the course about dealing in matters propounded in this letter and not yeelded unto by the others Exâ—ept some of them shevveth playne ynough hovv greatly these meÌ„ oppugned the ordinance of God touching the Elders hearing and judging of causes and persons and hovv highly they lift up the people therein specially vvhen the things noted before about this question are joyned and compared herevvith Novv it follovveth that vve set dovvne our next letter sent unto the other Church about the matter aforesaid vvhich also vvas the last that passed betvveen us afore the others parting from us And it vvas thus Your letter brethren we received and read publikly Corcerning which we haue occasion to signify some things unto you thereabout And first touching the agreement treated of between us that for such of us as will not come thither to remayne with you but purpose still to liue here in this citie apart from us albeit there be some that could be content notwithstanding so to dismisse them yet there are others of us that having more considered of it thinke it not lawfull to haue any hand in consenting thereunto and meane therefore to reverse our former agreement unto it besides that divers of us say they never consented hereunto And further some of us also beginne to thinke that it will be found unlawfull to keep spirituall coÌ„munion with them in such estate how ever we may still reteyne with them civill societie The reasons mynded why not so to dismisse them nor to haue spirituall fellowship with theÌ„ in such estate walking are these 1. Because we can not finde warrant for it in the word of God 2. Because they refuse disobey and speak evill of the truth and waie of God 3. Because they refuse to continew and keep coÌ„munion with us though they may be suffered to walke with us in peace with protestation in their difference of judgment 4. Because some of them professe they will not deale in causes as may fall out between us by way of protestation neyther when they are with us nor when they are from us 5. Because they goe not froÌ„ one Church and Pastour to another so to live and remayne but purpose when they haue come joyned unto you then presently to returne to live here in this towne apart from us 6. Because by such walking of theirs great reproach will come upon us all with much dishonour to God and hinderance to the truth what in them lyeth 7. Lastly because we thinke there should alway be somewhat in such cases used as whereby the Lord may worke upon their consciences to consider their estate and to repent and yeeld to the truth and waie of God which they haue hitherto refused and oppugned c. Thus we thought to acquaint you with these things and the reasons thereabout Which yet are so mynded of us as if eyther among our selues or by others we shall hereafter better discerne what is according to the will of God herein we shall Godwilling be ready so to receiue and walke As touching the the double practise misliked by you although in deed it may seeme somewhat straunge and difficult yet for the present some of us could like better of it then of a parting but the brethren differing from us will not admit of it Neyther will they yeeld to that middle course propounded in your letter Yet haue we left it with the former things to their further consideration And how soever it pleaseth the Lord to dispose of us our trust is that he will worke all in the end to the furtherance of his truth and peace of his Church in Iesus Christ To whose gracious protection and guydance we commend you c. Amsterdam Novemb. 19.1610 This letter being here publikly read vvas then sent to the Church at Leyden VVhereabout let these things also be observed here First that vve reversed not our agreement concerning such as vvould goe and liue vvith the Church at Leyden but onely about such as vvould not remayne and liue there but purposed to returne liue here apart from us in this citie Secondly that for this also we shewed divers reasons moving us so to doe and that both here by vvord of mouth and by vvriting to Leyden afore they vvent avvay from us Thirdly that vvhereas tvvo courses vvere propounded for the keeping of us together the one by us here the other by the Church at Leyden they vvould not admit of eyther of them neyther remayned vvith us till vve had from Leyden an ansvver of this letter and of the reasons conteyned therein but vvere so set upon parting from us as before vve heard from them they divided them selues from us and so haue continued to this day Yea notvvithstanding that before this their parting and besides all the other meanes formerly used vve offred also to try out in vvriting the matter betvveen us touching our difference about the Churches government and understanding of Mat. 18.17 vvhich likevvise they refused VVhereof I shall speak more particularly hereafter Fourthly that vvhen they left us they vvent not to Leyden there to joyne them selues to that Church according to the agreement before spoken of but vvent apart from us here forsaking the fellovvship vvhich they had with us and met together in another place of this tovvne VVhich is much to be observed not onely for the thing it self but because that thus them selues in their going away followed not the agreement betvveene the other Church and us vvhereof