bases In this question touching the visibilitie of the Catholike Church three terms are to be explicated 1. Church 2. Catholike 3. Visible First church by church we understand not a particular congregation or company confined to one certain place parish city or country for such a particular Church is not always visible Where there have been visible professours in many famous cities and countries there are few or none now and where there were none before as in divers parts of America there are visible churches now The canâ—lesticks follow the light and when the light that is the preaching of the gospel is removed the congregations that is the candlesticks are also removed and from what câ—y or country soever both are translated there is darknesse and in darknesse no visibilitie Secondly catholike is taken in a double sense logicall and theologicall logicall for a generic all notion of a church which is predicated of every particular church tanquam genus de specie as when we say the Greek or the Latine is a christian church In this sense church is the object of the understanding not of the sense and catholike so taken is intelligible not sensible or visible For universalia qua talia non cadunt sub sensum Secondly theologicall for the whole companie of all that are called to the knowledge of the truth and outward means of salvation by Christ having Gods word and ordinances among them The catholike church so taken is spread over the face of the whole earth and though not in the whole lump yet in every part and parcel thereof is visible so long as that part and parcel continueth a member or portion of the catholike church and though some members like branches of the golden tree in the poet be cut off or wither yet others rise up in their places or upon some other boughs or arms of that great tree Thirdly visible when we say the catholike church in a theological notion is visible we mean in respect of outward profession of faith and publike use of sacraments common to all christians not in respect of the inward grace of the spirit and proper marks of the elect for so it is not object to sense Those marks are like the white-stone in the Apocalypse which no man knoweth but he that receiveth it and in this notion the whole companie of the elect is by our divines called the invisible church not that the elect in it are not seen but because this cannot be seene or known by sense that they are elect A child seeth a shining stone which is a diamond topaz or some precious gem but he knoweth it not to be a true jewell all men knew Nathaniel to be an Israelite but our Saviour only the beams of whose eyes pierced into the hidden corners of his heart could say behold a true Israelite in whom there is no guil That a man is a true Israelite that is hath true faith is a matter of faith and the catholike church taken for a companie of such as they are such is an article of our creed credo sanctam ecclesiam catholicam I beleeve there is such a holy catholike church but neither I nor any man else can discover it to be such by sense Yet to avoyd all mistaking the church we beleeve in the creed is not a distinct church from that which we see in the severall and particular members thereof For the elect which make the invisible church are in the visible as the soul is in the bodie or a diamond in a ring or the apple in the eye or gold in the oare and we may properly call them the church of the church as Demosthenes called Athens the Greece of Greece and Cicero Leontium the Sicilie of Sicilie Of the catholike church as it is invisible we dispute not now but as it is in the parts and members thereof visible and our question is rather de modo than de re not whether the church be always visible but how farre it is visible and whether such visibilitie be a proper and inseparable note thereof We acknowledge there hath been and ever will be a true church visible but not always eminent conspicuous but not always illustrious known but not always nutorioâ—s fair and specious but not always pompous and glorious For what shew could a church make when it consisted but in Abel and he was murdered and afterwards in Enoch and he was taken from the company of men to walk with God or at the death of our Saviour when as Alenâ—â—s reacheth the true faith remained onely in the blessed virgin and one candle alone left on Easter evening burning after all the other are put out in the Roman Church implyeth as much if we may believe the interpreters of that ceremonie Certainly the Church was brought to a low ebb when the deluge overflowed the whole world and only eight persons were preserved in the ark and it is a question whether all of them were eternally saved I am sure one of them namely Cham was cursed of God Shew me the glorious lustre of a visible church in the days of the Patriarks pilgrimage in Mesopotamia or their posterities bondage in AEgypt or captivitie in Babylon in which sad times they who lived and belonged to the true church sighed to God often in private but were not suffered to pray to him in publike they lifâ—ed up their hearts no doubt continually but not their hands they were so streightly manacled they often looked towards the holy city and the place where Gods honour dwelt but they could not stir their foot towards it for they were fettered All their sacrifices they could then offer were their broken and contrite hearts and their sweetest incense their burning desires and their drink offerings their tears which they powred out by the waters of Babylon and made them waters of Marah salt and bitter No marvail that the spouse of Christ hid her self in a strange land and then covered her face when it was swoln with grief and blubbered with tears but did she ever so in her own country and kingdom Did she ever wear a mask in Judah and Israel Did she ever there shut up her self in her closet and water her plants Certainly she did as we read 2 Chro. 15. 3. Now for a long season Israel had been without the true God and without a teaching priest and without the law but when they in their trouble did turn to the Lord God of Israel and sought him he was found of them v. 5. and in those times there was no peace to him that went out not to him that came in but great vexations were upon all the inhabitants of the countries What face of a church was to be seen in the days of Elijah who maketh this grievous complaint against Israel 1 King 19. 10. The children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant thrown down thine altats and slain thy prophets with the sword and I even I only
most part taken in the latter sense as in the creed of Athanasius whosoever will be saved must hold the catholike faith that is the orthodox faith which he there setteth down for at that time when he wrote that creed of his was not catholike in the first sense that is generally and uâ—â—versally received if that be true which Vincentius writeth the pâ—…son of the Arrians did not infect only a portion of the church but 〈◊〉 a manner â—ainâ—ed the whole world insomuch that almost all the laâ—â—n bishops being surprised by fraud or by force had a mist cast before their eys In neither of these two senses of the word can either your church or your faith or your persons be termed catholike Not your church for Dr. Reynolds hath long ago demonstrated in his second Thesis thaâ—… present Roman church is neither the catholike church of Christ nor a sound member thereof not your faith for that as I said before so farre as it differs from ours is patcht up of many heresies not your persons for they are singular or individuall and therefore cannot be catholikes that is â—â—iversall Here you use to alledge for your selvs a passage out of Pacianus christian is my name and catholike is my sirname But what is this to you unlesse you could prove that Pacianus held your Trent faith when you prove that I will immediatly turn Roman catholike till you shew some affinity between your faith and his you cannot challenge his sirname catholike As for his meaning in this his elegant motto christian is my name and catholike is my sirname he alludeth evidently to the manner of the Romans and some other nations who used to give their children two names at least one common as Marcus or Cneius or Caius the other proper as Cicero or Crassus or Anthony or Pompey and the sense his words carry is this christian is a name which I have in common with all that in any sort beleeve the gospel and are neither Jews not Paynims but catholike is my proper name whereby I am distinguished from divers sorts of christians to wit all those who professe christianity in generall yet not purely but with mixture of some heresie or schismatically sever themselvs from the communion of the catholike that is the universall church and truly the name catholike in his days as also in the days of S. Austin when the hereticks were but a handfull and lurked but in corners here and there was a distinctive term for then the hereticks in regard of their paucitie could not with any colour pretend to the name catholike but afterwards when heresies became catholike that is spread over the whole face of the church and the orthodox christians were far fewer in number the title catholike ceased to be a note of distinction and the word orthodox was used in stead thereof to distinguish true beleevers from all miscreants hereticall or schismaticall PARAG. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian faith true divine and infallible Challenge That there is always one and but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ without which none can please God or attain to salvation c. Answer When I read your preface and compared it with that which followeth I could not but think of Oretes pots sent for a present to Polycrates in which there was a little gold laid on the top and under it nothing but trash for after these two golden assertions of the unity and immutability of the true divine and infallible faith laid as it were in the top of your discourse there is nothing to be found under them but lead and trash as shall appear hereafter in the gaging it I grant there is one and but one true divine and infallible faith but you should have explicated how but one and in what sense Divine and infallible faith hath been always and is one for substance though not for circumstance all beleevers even from Adam were though not in name yet in truth christians Christ and his meritorious actions and passions were the object of their faith as well as ours but they beleeved in Christ to come we in Christ that is come we and they resemble the spies that carried the bunch of grapes on their shoulders the former who went before looked backward the latter who went behind looked forward on the grapes they looked forward with the eys of their faith on the incarnation passion resurrection and ascension of Christ to come we look backward on these as past they saw Christ in foregoing types we in succeeding sacraments Yea but it may be objected that many new articles of faith are daily declared and many new theologicall conclusions found out else how should knowledge encrease How then is the faith of the church always one For answer hereunto I will borrow Vincentius his decision what saith he is there no profiting in Christs school no growth in faith and the knowledge of salvation Yes very great but provided always that this progresse be a going forward in the same way to heaven not a turning out of the way an improvement of faith no change that is holding the same principles of faith we may and ought daily by the studies of scriptures deduce new conclusions but such as are vertually contained in those principles not such as are any way repugnant to them so long as we mutilate not our creed by dis-beleeving or mis-beleeving any article of it and whatsoever we offer farther to be beleeved we cleerly and evidently conclude from scriptures or other prime and fundamentall articles of christian religion the faith of the church is still one Secondly this faith is said to be divine in a three-fold regard 1. Of the object which is God 2. The efficient which is the spirit of God 3. The motive which is the word of God or the authoritie of the speaker which is divine and because God cannot deceive nor be deceived hence it followeth that the faith which is grounded upon his word is infallible and such is the faith of the reformed church of England one divine and infallible whereas on the contrary your romish faith is neither one nor divine nor infallible Not one for you differ one from another in many substantiall points of faith as is proved Paragraph the X. Nor divine for the last resolution of your faith is unto the church a company of men subject to error Nor is it infallible for it is partly grounded upon unwritten traditions which vary partly upon the decrees of Popes and councels which contradict one the other the generall synod held at Ariminum contradicted the first of Nice in the point of Christs deity the councell at Frankeford contradicted the second councell of Nice in the point of images the generall councell held at Lateran contradicted the generall councell at Basil in the point of supremacie and I could with a wet finger produce divers decrees of Popes out
reformatione ecclesiae and Wicelius method concord PAR. VI Touching the visibility and invisibility of the church in a different notion CHALLENGE For to say as some protestants do the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old testament it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to joyn hâ—â—ds and amongst christians this invisibility supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments Answer What protestants affirm that the catholike visible church to wit the company of those who professe the true christian faith was a long time invisible We deny that the church was ever driven to such straights or reduced to such a paucitie or obscuritie much lesse invisibility but that new proselytes might have accesse unto her and her own members communicate with her in the pledges of salvation though not always without danger to their persons and estates And therefore when you fight against an invisible church professing christianity you fight also against an invisible adversary and pursue your own fancie as Antipho in Aristotle imagined that he drave his own image in the ayr before him Of this see more at large in the Preface PAR. VII Concerning the visibility of the Roman church and how the Papacie hath been opposed in former ages CHALLENGE We then affirm and let â—ur adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath been always visible Answer That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible we yeeld you gratis but that the Roman church you mean hath been so we peremptorily deny When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible our meaning is that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof and provinces belonging to it a church professing christian doctrine in the beginning most purely in the middle more impurely but in the end and at this day most corruptly And what gain you hereby that the Roman church you mean that is that church or rather that faction in the church for papatus est in ecclesia papatus tamen non est ecclesia which professeth the present Roman faith and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church hath been always visible It will no way follow christianity may be and was many hundred yeers without popery and a church in Rome also but as far different from the present Roman church as Sicily in Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily and therefore as the oratour sought for Sicily in the most fruitfull parts of Sicily so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith and church so much commended by the apostles in Rome it self and find it anywhere in the christian world rather than there To instance in the controversie about the head which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of paâ—ists and papalins we deny that there was any christian church at Rome or else-where for many hundred yeers after Christ which acknowledged the Popes supremacie or built their faith upon his infallibility St. Paul we know accounted himself nothing inferiour to the chief apostles If your eyes be so dazled with the brightnesse of the Popes triple crown that you cannot see Pauls equality to Peter and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope in the letter of the text yet you cannot but see it in the fathers commentaries Hoc dicit saith S. Ambrose quia non est minor neque in praedicatione neque in signis faciendis nec dignitate sed tempore that is this the apostle speaketh to wit I am nothing inferiour to the chief apostles because he is not lesse or inferiour neither â—n the gift of preaching nor in the gift of miracles nor in dignity but in time What not inferiour to S. Peter no not to S. Peter if S. Chrysostome take him right As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles uâ—circumcision so he calleth the Iews circumcision And he sheweth himself to be of equall honour with the rest and he compares not himsâ—lf to others but to the chief of them shewing that every of them held the same rank of dignity {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Oecumenius {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter Nay which is more remarkable Pope Leâ— who when he took Peter alone extolleth him above the skies and admitteth him after a sort in consortium individuae Trinitatis that is into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity yet meeting with Peter and Paul together he doth equall homage and reverence to them both and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them in this or any other respect De quorum meritis virtutibus quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem nihil diversum sentire debemus nihil discretum quos electio pares labor similes mors fecit aequales of whose worth and vertues which surpasse all ability of speech we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them whose calling to the apostleship made them equaâ—l and their travels in their office alike and their martyrdom parallel Here he compareth them not onely in regard of their personall gifts and labours but of their calling and function electio pares S. Paul then in Pope Leo's judgement may go every where hand in handwith S. Peter he hath the right hand of him in the Popes seal as is confessed by Bellarmine who much troubleth himself to yeeld a sufficient reason thereof And as S. Paul stood upon even ground as it were with S. Peter and witâ—…tood him to the face so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus and Polycrates with Victor against whom he wrote a synodicall epistle and S. Cyprian with Pope Stephen And therefore AEneas Sylvius afterwards Pope had good reason to affirm though Bellarmin gives him the lye for it that before the councell of Nice parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur that is that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop At the councell of Nice which was neither called nor ratified by his authoritie but the Emperor Constantines all the preeminence he had amounted but to a primacy of order and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome suburbicas ecclesias as Ruffinus hath it After the councell of Nice he contented himself with the style of Urbis Romae episcopus the bishop of the city of Rome The church of Carthage forbad under pain of excommunication any in Carthage to appeal from their courts ad transmarina judicia intending to the see of Rome In the synods held at Calcedon and Constantinople the patriarch of
Mahumetans as fix and the idolatrous as nineteen O lamentable estate of the world Quis talia fâ—â—dâ— temperet a lachrymis how much larger is the heard of satan than the flock of Christ if you restrain your note of universalitie to such as professe the worship of God in Christ and thereby exclude the Payniâ—â—s and Mahumâ—tans yet so it will not stead you for it is most certain that the partie of christians which oppose the papacy is incomparably the greatest in number If to the protestants in the western church you add the eastern churches professing christian faith in a great part of Europe Asia and Africa they will bear down the scale to the ground To speak nothing of the Abâ—ssinâ—â— and AEthiopians largely dispread in the kingdoms of Prâ—ster Iohn to omit the patriarch of Muscovia the archbishops of Moldâ—via and Walachia Under the Turk there are foâ—â— pâ—triarchs at this day to wit the patriarch of Constantinople of Alâ—xâ—ndria Antiochia and Ierusalem and that these patriarchs are not like some of your bishops whom Pâ—normitan fitly calls nullatenenses appeâ—rs by the catalogue of archbishops subject to the pâ—triarch of Conâ—… sâ—t down by Curopalata which are these 1. The archbishop of Casâ—rea in Câ—ppâ—dâ—cia 2. Ephesus 3. Heracleâ— 4. Aâ—… 5. 〈◊〉 6. Sardis 7. Necomedia 8. Nicea 9. Calcedon 10. Mitylene 11. Thessalonica 12. Laodicea 13. Synadae 14. Ieonium 15. Corynth 16. Athens 17. Patrae 18. Trupezuntium 19. Larissae 20. Naupactus 21. Adrianopolis These archbishops have many bishops under them the archbishop of Ephesus 2. of Moldavia 3. of Walachia 3. of Heraclea 7. of Thessalonica 9. of Corynth 10. of Athens 11. of Larissae 13. of Muscovia 17. not to over-charge your memory with more under the patriarchs All those christians besides many more of the Greek church professing Christ differ from your Roman church in many substantiall points of faith They â—cknowledge no supremacy of the Pope have no faith in his infallibility nor trust in his pardons they disclaim merits and works of supererogation purgatory transubstantiation are no articles of their faith they allow marriage of priests they cannot away with the mutilation of the sacrament by depriving the laytie of the cup they teach the perfection and sufficiencie of the scripture they have the scripture and the church lyturgie in their severall languages understood by their people The Muscâ—vits in the Muscâ—vitish the Arâ—bians in the Arabick the Georgians in the Iberick the Carmonians in the Carmanick the Colâ—hians Slavonians Grecians in their known Greek or other peculiar languages therefore it is not safe for you to put the truth of religion upon this poynt Were the rule of multitude of visible professors of religion certâ—in and infallible Miâ—hea were to be condemned and the 400. prophets of Ahaâ— to be justified Ieremy to be abandoned and all the prophets that were in Iuda and Ierusalem whom â—ose against him to be followed Nay Christ the truth it self to be traduced and reproved and the coâ—â—cell of the chief priests and elders held against him to be maintained and approved Had you lived in Athanasius his days we know where to have had you questionlesse not of his side who had all the world in a manner against him as the speech of the Arrian Emperouâ— to Liberius imports Whâ—â— a petty part art thou of the world Who art thou that â—etteâ—â— thy self against the world In S. Iohnâ— time the whole world was set on wickednesse and in Athanasius his time upâ—n heresie â—oâ—us mâ—â—dus saith S. Hierom gemuit se factâ—… Arrâ—anum the whole worlâ— grâ—aned because it became Arriaâ— What becomes now of your note of universaâ—itie To this poynt I earnestly desire particular satisfaction which I have not yeâ— received from any Româ—… catholike or universalist as they would be called PAR. XIII Where the true church was when the Roman fell CHALLENGE Or if they cannot do this as we well know they cannot let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth Answer We cannot prove our true church by the false marks you have set down neither can you prove your false church by the true marks set down by us Eminent visibilitie illustrious ample unversalitie and anti-christian combination under one head the Pope are no marks as hath bin shewed of the true church And what then if we cannot prove our doctrin by them Then you say let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth I have already shewed a church more ample than yours and not only distinct from your Roman but opposite to it as much as we in the most sundamentall poynt to wit the papacy yea so opposite that the first sunday in Lent when they solemnly curse all hereticks as Arrius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius Apollinaris c. they pronounce in like manner an Anathema to the Pope But what an argument is this If you cannot prove your church by the fore-named false marks then assign us some other church distinct from the Roman in which these marks are conspicuous To passe by this your lame inference and make the best of such poor stuff as you bring out of your own words a man may pick out such an argument either the Roman church continued still the church or when she sell away some other church must be assigned which persevered in the truth else there should be no Church in the world If this be that you would say the answer to this your objection is very easie on our parts for we charge not the Latin church with defection from the true faith universally but the chief governoâ—rs and leaders thereof or to speak more fully that prevalent and predominant faction in the church of Rome that hath born sway for some hundreds of years which we say is plunged into many dangerous and pestilent errors and superstitions yet not into all errors at one leap but they sunk into them by degrees when then this faction in the Roman church which we call the papacy or the kingdom of anti-christ or the Mystery of iniquitie threw it self into an open gulf of error or heresie we say that that part of the Roman church and elsewhere which both secretly and openly impugned such error and heresie and in as much as in them lay stopt such corruptions at the entrance were the true church as for example when the fore-named faction by Boniface the third Phocas his means brought first into the church the Luciferian title and anti-christian power of oecumenicall or universall bishop and head of the whole church they in the Greek and Latin church which opposed it were the true church When the same faction by Irene and Pope Adrians means decreed the worshiping of images in the second councell of Nice those who made head against them and
the continuance of our church for we have Gods promise in the old and Christs in the new that the church professing entirely that faith grounded on Gods word shall continue to the end And the redeemer shall come to Sion as for me this is my covenant with them saith the Lord my words which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed for ever And this is the word of faith which we preach And behold I am with you unto the end of the world Wherefore since all in the end must be brought to this issue whether our church or yours hath kept safe the most precious depositum of the apostolike faith we wish your learned to encounter us principally in this point not but that we will be ready to answer you in all other points whatsoever but because it is to small purpose to contend meerly about the out-works and leave the main forts and castle untouched As for your challenging words If c. I return them upon your self because you speak of all points I say if you can name any that professed the present Romish doctrin in all points within 1000. yeers after Christ let them do it then if we do not disprove them the day is theirs and for the most points of greatest moment shew me any for 600. yeers and let the day be yours Hic rodus hic saltus as for us we are in no danger of your if c. for we say it is needlesse to name any such who in all points taught our doctrin it is sufficient to produce some eminent persons in all ages who endeavoured to stop the inundation of your Romish errours and superstitions as it continually brake into the church especially if they held no substantiall doctrin of faith contrary to that which we now beleeve and teach besides these eminent persons and standard-bearers of the Gospel we doubt not but there were many thousands others both in your Romish church and else-where who never bowed the knee to Bâ—â—l nor received any â—â—rk of the beast At this last answer of some of our men you â—ibble saying PAR. XVI Of making open profession of faith in time of persecution CHALLENGE Rediculous it is to answer hereunto as some do that there were true beleeving protestants when Luther began but durst not for fear of fire professe their faith this we say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold Christ saying of such He that denyeth me before men I will deny him before my father in heaven Answer Bellarmin upon the by acknowledgeth that the Hussites and Waldenses continued till Luthers time who as appeareth by the rubricks of your own stories signed the faith we now professe not only with ink but with bloud which hath proved so fruitfull seed of the church that if the harvest of the next century be answerable to the last you will be constrained to blot catholike out of the title of your church and leave only Roman Besides many noble standard-bearers of the protestant religion who bad defiance to the whore of Babylon we say and disprove it if you can that there were many thousands who refused her cup of abhominations and in private detested her fornications howsoever they made no open profession of the faith neither will it hence follow that they were hypocrites this is too hard and uncharitable a censure Nicodemus was no hypocrite though he came to Jesus but by night and as it were by stealth Nor Ioseph of Arimathea though he made no open shew of his love to Christ till after his death much lesse were the Disciples hypocrites who according to Christs commandement fled from citie to citie and sought by all means to keep oâ—t of the eye and walk of their persecutors what publike or open profession of the christian faith made those saints S. Paul and S. Helary speak of who lived and dyed in deserts and hid themselvs in caves and dens of the earth It is the judgement of some of your divines that in the dreadfull and dismall persecution of antichrist the Pope himself shall professe his faith in secret If to make no open profession of faith is to be a luke-warm hypocrite what hypocrites shall the Romish priests be who shall not dare openly to celebrate masse in the great persecution of antichrist toward the end of the world as your Rhemists and Tapperus imply You your self and those of your religion especially priests and Jesuits make no open profession of your faith here in England yet you would not be thought to be hypocrites Be not too rash in your censures lest you slander your own mothers children Those God threatneth to spew out of his mouth who are neither hot nor cold that is those who have no zeal of Gods truth burning in their hearts those deny Christ before men who being called to make a goodprofession as Christ did before Pontius Pilate either directly or indirectly deny the faith as your Jesuited equivocators do renounce their priesthood calling such as deny Christ in this sort we deny them protesting against such protestants who are nothing lesse then what they are named PAR. XVII Of the first conversion of Britains and English to the faith CHALLENGE Or if your men fly this difficulty we will joyn issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion unto which we Englishmen were first converted by Austin a monk a man of God sent by Gregory the great bishop of Rome more than a 1000. yeers since Answer The Philosophers contend not more about the head and springs of Nilus than our English antiquaries about the source or rather the golden conduit which first conveyed the water of life into this Island some derive this {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} from Simon Zelotes some from S. Paul others from Ioseph of Arimathea and some few from King Lucius whoÌ„Beda calleth the founder of the faith among the Britains all fetch it from a higher more noble pipe then you You are the first whom ever I read to affirm that we Englishmen were first converted to the christian faith by monk Austin who when he came first into this Iland found among the Britains an arch-bishop and 7. bishops and 2000. monks in Bangor and what a world of christian people may we think besides Even in Kent it self where he first and most laboured in Gods vineyard he found a christian church bearing the name of S. Martin built to his hand and a way made for him even to the court by Lethardus chaplain to Queen Berta or Aldiberga Greg. himself Austins master doth us this right he acknowdlgeth it thirsted after the water of life before he thought of sending Austin and Melitus to quench this thirst whence was
lay-pâ—pes yours are clergie enthusiasts The propagation of the christian faith to al ages even to the end of the world we believe by the ministery of the word established by our Lord and Saviour when he ascended far above all heavens that he might fill all things and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and sâ—â—e pastours and teachers for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministery for the edifying of the body of Christ till 〈◊〉 all comâ— in the unitie of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God 〈◊〉 a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ We acknowledge also that these ministers S. Paul speaketh of and distinguisheth by the titles of evangelists doctors and pastours c. ought to be lawfully ordained and be visible and known to those who belong to the true church though not always to their blood-thirstie enemies When our blessed Lord and Saviour fled into AEgypt and the woman into the wildernesse and the primitive saints wandered in deserts and in mountaines and in dens and caves of the earth when S. Hilarie complains against many in his time who were carried away with the splendour and outward pomp of the Arrian clergie possessing the greatest cities and towns you do ill saith he to be in love with wals hils and woods and deserts and gulfs are safer for me for in these the prophets either drowned or remaining alive prophesied by the spirit of God In such perilous times as these the visible pastours you speak of kept out of the eye of the world and the walk of their enemies and were not so known as you would seem to imply yet did they preach the gospel in despight of antichristian opposits bending all their forces and banding against them and there were added to the church daily such as should be saved PARAG. V. Concerning the perpetuity of the true church and her immunitie from all fundamentall ' errours in poynts necessarie to salvation CHALENGE Whence we say it followeth that not for six hundred years only as many protestants grant there was a true church free from spot of errour but likewise in all ages following there ever waâ— and must be such a church in the union whereof all might be saved Answer That from the creation of the first Adam and his consort till the comming of the second Adam to judgement there hath been and shall continue a true church in the world to which all that belong to Christs kingdom may and ought to repair for the means of salvation we doubt not And of this church we believe that though it consist of men subject to error as well in doctrin as in practise yet that it is so preserved by the spirit of truth promised by Christ from all fundamentall errours in points necessarie to salvation that neither the militant and visible church universally nor any true member thereof finally shall ever be stained with any spot of such errour But errours of lesse dangerous consequence which may be called pulvisculi navuli or aspergines spots indeed but not stains the visible church upon earth hath seldom or never been free from For to let passe the first six hundred years because on both sides we rather appeal to them than any way appeach them Beda who flourished in the year 730. bemoans the state of the church saying every man seeth with wet eys how the state of the church daily grows worse and worse and well might he complain in such sort for Genebrard a popish chronicler confesseth that in succeeding times from Iohn the eighth till Leo the ninth all that sate in the apostolike chair fell away from the vertue of their auncestours deserved rather to be termed apotacticall and apostaticall than apostolicall And after the thousand year when satan was let loose even till the happie reformation of the church by Martin Luther let us heat what the witnesses of the truth in their severall ages have deposed touching the church failings especially in the western parts In the year 1050. Benno writeth that the popes chair was fearfully cut into more parts and that prodigie boded that those popes who were to sit in it should miserably rend the church of Christ In the year 1078. Lambertus Geasonburgensis writeth that tares ran over the whole field of Christ and that the whole body of Christs flock pined away in a consumption In the year 1160. Otho Frisingensis observeth that Rome grew in wealth and power but decayed in truth and justice In the year 1200. Ioachimus a religious Abbat discourseth how far the religion practised in his time differed from the form and manner of the primitive church and how the church now growing old like Solomon fell into idolatriâ— In the year 1290. Robert Gallus had a vision wherein he saw a pope saying masse with a lean meagre and dry head like as if it had been made of wood and the spirit said unto him this signifieth the state of the Roman church In the year 1304. Ubertinus a Casali chargeth the Roman church with grosse and foul adulterie the present church is called new Babylon which is the great whore because the true worship and love of her spouse Iesus is fouly corrupted in her and the spirit of righteous men in this time is oppressed above measure and is compelled will they nill they in many things to serve the whore in her unclean acts In the year 1320. William Occham thus declaimeth against the popes tyrannie and crueltie in wasting the church of God and suppressing the truth the bishops who now seem to govern and teach the people of God that they may compasse their wicked ends persecute those that defend the truth even to death and shed innocent blood In the year 1370. S. Brigetta describeth the miserable state of the church in her days in her writings extant in Bibliotheca patrum In the year 1416. Gerson the famous chancellor of Paris ingeâ—â—ously confesseth that many corruptions and abuses were brought into the church under the colour of religion which it were far better and more pious to omit than retain In the year 1460. Platina brandeth Christs vicaâ— with crueltie against the true servants of Christ He which calleth himself Christs vicar condemneth Christs commands and burneth them that believe in his words And in the life of Bennet the eighth he breaketh out into a bitter exclamation of the guides of the people in his time O the miserable condition saith he of these blind men who because they persist in errour against their conscience cast themselvs into everlasting perdition He that is not satisfied with this taste may glut himself if 〈◊〉 please with store of such bitter fruit gathered to his hand by the author and supplementer of Catalogus testium veritatis especially in the 14 centurie and Petrus de Alliacâ— de planctu curiae Romanâ— and de
which are contained in the creed only they speak evill of the Roman church and clergy â—o this popish inquiâ—â—tor I will add another Romish nomenclator namely Conradus Wimpina ex fagis who summeth up all his wits and readings to make a recapitulation of all hereticks and sectaries as he termeth them indeed such as have opposed the corrupt doctrin and practises of the Roman church and of these he gives us this pedegree the Lionists begat the Waldenses the Waldenses the Dulcinists the Dulcinists the Wickliffists the Wickliffistâ— the Hussites the Hussites the Lutherans You say these were all bnethren in iniquitie and joyned hands against the church of Roâ—e but yet they agreed not among themselvs not held the same doctrin which the protestants do at this day These are your shifts but Wimpina will beat you out of these dodges for first for the doctrin of the Lionists and Waldenses â—e delivereth it as followeth That the church of Rome is spirituall Babylon and a harlot that in the altar after consecration there is not the body of Christ but only consecrated bread which by a figure is said to be Christs body as it is said of the rock that it was Christ that the saints understand nothing of humane affairs upon earth that God alone is to be called upon there is no purgatory no veniall sins the benediction of salt ashes holy water c. hath no profit in it indulgences pardons and jubilees are of â—o worth the images of saints are not to be kept in churches nor to be worshipped exorcisms are vain and unprofitable Whereunto Rainerius addeth the Waldenses do not receive the canon of the masse they say that the offering which is made in the masse by the priest is nothing nor doth any way profit they dislike canonicall hours they say that the church did erre in forbidding priests marriages they disallow the sacraments of confirmation and extream unction they condemn latin prayers and say they doe the people no good they beleeve not the legends of saints they esteem the holy crosse no other then simple and bare wood they affirm that prayers for the dead do not at all profit the souls of the departed and lastly that the doctrin of Christ and the apostles without the ordinances of the church is sufficient to salvation If any desire to read more concerning the doctrin of the Lionists Albigenses and Waldenses and their agreement with the present reformed churches in every point of moment I refer him to the confession of the Waldenses exhibited to Uladislaus King of Hungary in the year of our lord 1508. extant in Orthwinâ—s Grâ—tius and to the writings of Lucas Tudensis Plichdorâ—ius and others against the Waldenses set forth by Iames Gretzer at Ingolstad An. 1613. Now that Dulcinists and Wickliffists received their doctrin from these Waldenses or Lionists the same Wimpina clearly testifieth Wickliffe faith he suckt heresies which he endeavoured to bring into England from the Waldenses and Iohn of Lion ring-leaders among hereticks And in the same book p. 21. he saith That Dulcinus in the year of our Lord 1306. was tainted with the errours of the Waldersâ—s and that he put all Europe into a kind of amazement and that in the mountains of Trent there is a remainder of the Dulciâ—â—sts even to this day And in the prologue of his fourth book he casts up the totall sum in this manner out of this recapitulation of heâ—esies â—f thou keepest it well in thy mind thou mayst see how heresies came out of England into Bohemia out of Bohemia into Saxony that is â—o let passe those things which are more ancient how they made a progresse from Oxford to Prague from Prague to Wittenberg so that Wickliffe Hâ—ss and Luther delivered them successively from hand to hand whence it appears that there is nothing uttered by the Luthera is at this day which was not before spoken of and taught by the Wickâ—â—ffists and Hussites This confession of Conradus Wimpina a very learned Romanist and a witnesse beyond exception against them is worth gold and may be fitly compared to the Bufonites a pretions stone well known yet taken out of the head of a toad for no better is this Wimpina full himself of the poyson of popery and swelling with malice against the Lutheran and all other reformed churches PARAG. XV Divine faith not to be built upon humane stories or records CHALLENGE If they cannot satisfie us in all these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours If they can name any who did both beleeve and professe the protestant doctrin in all points let them do it and then if we doe not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out a true catholike and visible church Answer To answer you in the doctrinall point though we could not satisfie you in these your historicall demands neither should your faith gain any thing by it nor ours lose for the main and leading question between us is which church yours or ours holdeth the true undoubted christian faith without which no man can be saved and in a second place what are the proper notes of the true church of which St. Cyprian speaketh truly Deum non potest habere patrem qui ecclesiaÌ„ non habet matrem he cannot have God for his father who hath not the church for his mother these are quaestiones de fide in a different degree now quaestiones de fide cannot be determined by humane stories as Ballarmin rightly deduceth for humane stories or records faciunt tantum fidem humanam cui falsum subesse potest that is make or beget an humane faith or rather credulity subject to errour not a divine and infallible beleef that must be built upon surer ground Although you could prove your present Romish beleef to be as ancient as the Sadduces heresie and as universally spread as the Arrian or of as interrupted continuance as the Nestorian this would not win you the day did all the ecclesiasticall stories which are extant give in evidence not only for the visibility but also for the sincerity of your present Romish church yet such a proof being meet humane would not amount to a divine infallible argument to build divine faith upon on the contrary if we can prove evidently by the written word of God that our faith not yours is that precious faith once given to the saints and that the doctrine of our church at this day perfectly accordeth with the harmony of the apostles and evangelists and consorteth in all points with the undoubted orthodoxal church in their times we need not alledge any stories or records for
the emperour though it were against his heart and conscience 6. For the canon of scriptures S. Gregory holds the book of Maccabees in the same rank as we do profitable to he read for the edification of the church but not to be produced as inspired by God and of infallible authority for the confirmation of any poynt of faith for being to alledge a testimony out of those books he makes way for it by this preface de qua re non inordinatè agimus si ex libris licet non canonicis sed tamen ad adificationem ecclesia editis testimonium proferamus touching which matter we do not amisse if we bring forth a testimony out of those books viz. the book of Maccabees there cited which though they are not canonicall yet they are set forth for the edification and instruction of the church 7. For adoration of images he detests it as much as we see his epistles upon record si quis imaginem facere voluerit minimè prohibe adorare vero imagines omnibus modis devita If any man will make an image forbid him not but by all means avoyd the worshipping of images Who will now be a papist when we see the Pope is become a zealous Calvinist 8. Touching merit of works S. Gregory teacheth as we do that we ought not to repose any confidence in our own merits non in fletibus non in actis nostris sed in advocati nostri allegatione confidamus let us not trust in our own weeping and bewayling of our sins nor in our own acts but in the intercession of our advocate and upon Iob si ad virtutis opus excrevero ad vitam non ex meritis sed ex venia convalesco If I grow to any work of vertue I am restored to life not by merits but by pardon I forbear to alledgemore testimonies out of S. Gregory touching this poynt because those many clear passages which I have produced out of him before against the perfection of inherent righteousnesse by a necessary consequence overthrow all merit of works also 9. Touching certainty of salvation S. Gregory conspireth with the doctrin of the reformed church for having alledged certain promises of Christ in the gospel to found it upon thus he concludes hac it aque fulti certitudine de redemptoris nostri misericordia nihil ambigere sed spe debemus indubit at a praesumere non enim muneris sui largitate frustrabitur Deus sed vires obtinendi prorsus indulget qui velle concessit nam jam ipsum desiderant oppetere donum est that is therefore being supported with this certainty we ought not to doubt c. Gregories doctrin like ours at this day is a doctrin of faith and confidence whereas the doctrin of the church of Rome at this day is a doctrin of distrâ—… of diffidence 10. Touching the power of calling synods or ecclesiasticall assemblies which you now arrogate to the Pope in S. Gregory his time as aâ—â—ay before it was in the emperours and christian princes agreeable to the tâ—â—et of the present church of England S. Gregory taketh notice of the emperour his masters command for the assembling of a synod in Rome it self juxta Christianissimi serenissiâ—i rerum domini jussionem ad beati Petri apostoli limina cum tuis sequacibus venire to volumus ut Authore Deo aggregata synodo de eaqua inter not vertitur dubâ—etate quod justum fuerit judicetur According to the command of our most christian and â—raâ—ions Lord we require thee to appear at S. Peters c. 11. Touching the definition of the church you scoff at us for â—efining the true and most proper church of Christ which we beleeve in the creed to be the whole number of Gods elect You term it an Idea Platonica or an aeÌ„reall and invisible body a Chymaera or Phantasme and yet S. Gregory describes the church as we do Christus secundum praescientiae suae gratiam sanctam ecclesiam de sanctis in aeternum permansuris extruxit Christ according to the grace of his fore-knowledge hath built on holy church of saints eternally persevering in grace and upon Ezck una ecclesia est electorum praecedentium atque sequentium There is one church of the elect going before and following after 12. Touching the blessed sacrament of the Lords Supper to be administred in both kinds it is evident that in * S. Gregories time the whole congregation consisting of the laity as well as the clergie participated of the holy cup his words are pretiost sanguinis effusione genus humanum Chrisâ—us redemit sacro-sancti vivifici corporis sui sanguinis mysterium membris suis tribuit cujus perceptione corpus suum quod est ecclesia pascitur potatur abluitur sanctificatur Christ by the effusion of his most precious blood redeemed all mankind and giveth to his members the mystory of his most holy quickning body and blood by the participation whereof his body which is the church is nourished with meat and drink and is washed and sanctified Mark I beseech you that S. Gregoryâ—ith not lib. 4. Dial. cap. 58. he giveth to his members in the participation of the sacrament his body and blood for meat and drink but the mystery of his body and blood as elsewhere he speaketh in Evang. Hom. 14. Realiter passus Christus iâ—cruce in mysterio patitur quoties ecclesia milâ—â—ns sacrâ—◠〈◊〉 celebrat hoc facit in servatoris sui comâ—â—morationem Christ having suffered really upon the crosse suffereth in a mystery as 〈◊〉 as the church celebrateth his holy supper and this she doth in remembrance of her Saviour By comparing of which places any man may perceive what S. Gregory meaneth by a mystery when he opposeth it to that which was done really I leave it to you to make the inference And now to poynt these weapons drawn out of S. Gregories armory and rub them over with the oyl of your eloquence the saith of S. Gregory was never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendom in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he had communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church on earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and being then a true church 〈◊〉 say holding still the same tenots it must needs be so now Gods truth being like unto him without change and therefore if an angel should câ—me from heaven to teach us any other doctrin then that which we have received from S. Gregory we are not to hear him If an angell therefore from heaven teach that the books of Maccabees are canonicall or that the Pope or any other bishop may have the stile of oecumenicall bishop or supream head over all bishops or that our best works are not imperfect or defective
worship which is proper to God so Aquinas determineth Par. 3. quaest. 25. â—r 2. Illi exhibemus cultum latriae in quo ponimus â—â—em salutis clamat enim ecclesia O crux ave spes unica hoc passionis tempore auge piâ—s justitiam reisque dona veniam ibid. Crux Christi in qua Christus crucifixus est tum propter representationem tum propter Christi membrorum coutactum 〈◊〉 adoranda est We yeeld divine worship to that in which we put our trust but we repose the trust of our salvation saith he on the crosse of Christ for so the church singeth all hail O crosse our only hope in this time of passion increase righteousnesse in the godly and grant sinners pardon and hereupon concludeth that the crosse on which Crist was crucified as well because it representeth Christ as also because it touched the members of his body is to be adored with divine worshop by which reason all christians which then lived were bound to worship with divine worship Malchus his ear and Iudas his lips and the asses back on which Christ rode and the dust in the floor on which he wrote and the water in which he washed and the oyntment which was powred upon him and the souldiers fists that buffered him and what not that toucht any part of his body Yet Andradius is not ashamed to follow Aquinas his steps non diffiâ—emar nos praeclarissimam Christi crucâ—m adorare cultu latriae we do not deny but that we worshop the most excellent crosse of Christ with divine worship And Gretzer treads in the same path in his book De Cruce And Cardinall Bellarmin scorns to follow any of these he runs before them all in the idolatrots worship not only of the wood of the crosse on which Christ hung but also of all crosses whatsoever made after that fashion Nos omnes cruces adoramus quia omnes sunt imagines verae crucis we adore all crosses because all crosses are images of the true crosse Was this the beleef or practice of the church in Constantines time Let us enquire of S. Ambrose and he will tell us that S. Helen the mother of Constantine was far from worshipping the wood of the true crosse which she found by miracle â—â—â—enit â—itulum Regeâ— adoravit non lignum utique quia hic gentilis error est vanitas impiorum sed adoravit illum qui pep 〈…〉 ligâ—◠〈◊〉 she found the title she adored the king not the wood verily that is an heathenish errour and wicked vanity but she worshipped him who hung on the wood Let us enquire of Mâ—â—utius Foelix whether the church in those days worshipped or had crosses in their oratories The heathenâ— indeed as he there brings them in objected it to the christians that they worshipped the crosse colâ—nt quod â—erentur to which jear of the heathens Mirâ—tiâ—â— answereth cruces nec colimus nec optamns we â—â—ither worship crosses nor desire them 4. We teach with the apostle that marriage is honourable among all men and that it is the doctrin of devils to prohibit marriage in any condition of men be they of the clergy or of the laity You maintain the contrary both in your doctrin and practice priests among you are tyed to a single life and some of you blâ—sh not to say that a clergy man had better keep a concubine than his married wife praestat concubinam alere quam uxerem Was this the judgement or the practice of the church in Constantines age did not bishops and priests then marry Let Athanasius inform us who in his epistle ad Dracontium writeth thus you may observe many unmarried bishops among us and many married monks and again many married bishops and unmarried monks By which testimony of Athanasius it appears that in his time not only bishops but monks also might and did marry Sozomen maketh mention hist. lib. 1. cap. 11. of Spiridion the bishop of Cyrus his wife and children {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} He was married and had children and it was no disparagement unto him in his ecclesiasticall function word for word but he was not therefore worse or inferiour in those things which belong to God No more was Hilary the famous bishop of Poictou Nor the father of Nazianzen who lest his bishoprick to his son Gregory the flower of all the Greek fathers of whom thus Mantuan Praesule patre satus â—aâ— tune id jura sinebant Pastorale pedum gessit post funera patris We see the practice in Constantines time let us now hear the judgement of the church touching the practice Eusebius brings in Clemens inveighing against the despisers and contemners of marriage in this manner {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} that is what will these marriage haters condemn the apostles for Peter and Philip gate children And Socrates hath a remarkable story to this purpose there being a motion made in the councell of Nice to deprive married priests of society and conversation with their wives old Papnutius though himself an unmarried man yet mainly opposed that motion disswading the fathers of the councell from laying such a heavie yoak upon the clergy alledging that marriage is honourable among all men and the bed undefiled That all men could not bear such a restraint that too much strictnesse in this kind would be hurtful to the church that the company of a man with his lawfull wife is chastity 5. We teach that the elements of bread and wine are types-and figures of the body and bloud of Christ which we truly receive in the sacrament of the Lords supper spiritually by saith not carnally with the mouth You on the contrary that the bread and wine are turned by transubstantiation into the true body blood of Christ which you beleeve that you receive with the mouth and chew with the teeth Did the church of Christ in Constantines time beleeve transubstantiation or carnall manducation Let us heat what Athanasius and Eusebius and Greg. Nazianzen and S. Ephrem have delivered touching this point Athanasius illustrating those words of our Saviour in the 6. of Iohn it is the spirit which quickneth the flesh profiteth nothing c. saith Hic de utroque â—arâ—â— siâ—ct spiritu suo locutus est spiritâ—… a câ—râ—e discrimâ—n a vit. ut non solum in eo quod oculis apparebat sed naturam quoqâ—â— invisiâ—â—leâ— credentes disceremus ea quae loqueretur non carâ—â—lia esse sed spiritualia quot enim hominibus corpus ejus suffecrffeâ— ad â—â—buâ— ut universi mundi alimonia fieret Sed propterea ascensioâ—â—â— sâ—â— in câ—lum mentionem fecit ut eos a corporals intellectâ—â— abstraheret ac deinde carnem suam de qua locutus erat cibum è supernis â—â—lestem spiritualem alimoniam ab ipso donandaâ— intelligerent quae enim loquutus sum vobis inquit spiritus
opposed this idolatrous decree in the councell of Frankenford and synod of Paris together with Ionas bishop of Orleans and Charles the great and many in England who wrote against that blasphemous and idolatrizing synod were then the true church When by the strength of the same faction transubstantiation first stole in secretly and after was openly established by a decree in the councell of Laterane Scotus Erigena and Bertram Elfricus and Berengarius and their schollers in the Latin church which were in number like the sand of the sea were the true church When Hildebrand began to restrain the clergie by a law from marrying Nicetas the Abbat and the bishops of Italy France and Germany who withstood him they holding no fundamentall errors in any point of faith for ought can be shewed were the true church Lastly when the same faction prevailed so far in the councell of Constance as to decree the mutilation of the holy sacrament depriving the laity of the cup contrary to Christs institution and the practise of the primitive church Iohn Husse Ierom of Prague and the lords of Bohemia and the known remainder of the Waldenses besides many millions of christians both in the Greek and Latin church who oppugned and resisted openly or secretly that sacrilegious sanction many of them to the effusion of their blood were the true church whose followers iâ—â—â—hâ—mia and in France and elsewhere continued even till Lut hers time who was expected before he came and came not alone into the Lords battell as your Alfonsus a Castro testifieth in these words Noâ— prâ—diit solus Lutherus tanta est hujus seculi infoelicitâ—s sed multâ—… hareticorum agmine seu quodam satellitio stipatâ—â— processit qui illâ—… expectasse videntur ut sub illius vexille postea militâ—…t illi 〈◊〉 nomina dederunt Philipp Melancthonus Faber Capito Lambertus Conradus Pelicanus Andreas Osiander Martin Bucerus allique progessis temporis catervatim se illius faâ—iliae inseruerunt neither came Luther out alone such is the unhappinesse of this age but guarded with a great troop of hereticks who seemed to look for him that afterwards they might fight under his banner for presently Philip Melancâ—hon Faber Capito Lambert Conrade Pelicaâ— Andr. Osiander Martin Bucet gave their names unto him and others in processe of time in great numbers inserted themselvs into his familie PARAGRAPH XIV Of protestants in the age immediately before LUTHER CHALLENGE Or at least they must shew us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther begâ—â— in what city town or country they dwelt and what writers speak of them which lived before our times Answer First I answer that we need not give any particular or punctuall answer to this your demand a question grounded upon a wrong supposall is sufficiently answered by overthrowing the ground now the ground of this question is this supposall that if there were any protestants before Luther there must needs be some authenticall and particular record of them producible by â—s at this day Protestants there might be then yet not now extant at least for 〈◊〉 to come by I pray how many millions not only of right beleevâ—… but hereticks also have been since Christs time who were never upon a particular record Were there not a kind of hereticks called Acephali because their head and first author could never be known Again how many records and writings especially of this nature have perished either by commands of authority or by casualty restore us the works of Wickliff which you burnt and many other authors whom you have either extinguished or of late by your Index Expurgatorius clipt their tongues or you keep close prisoners in the Vatican and this question of yours will soon be answered In the mean while as Petrus Molineus saith wittily you deal with us herein as if a thief who hath stoln away a mans purse and made away the mony should demand of the true man what is become of your money If you had any such sums of mony in what bag in what purse where are those bags and purses c If such a question as you make here had been put tothe prophet Elijah to wit who were those 7000. the oracle of God speaketh of who never bowed the knee to Baal In what city town or country dwelt they the prophet could not have satisfied at that time this demand for he thought himself to be there left alone the children of Israel saith he have forsaken thy covenant thrown down thine altars and slain thy prophets with the sword and I even I only am left and they seek my life to take it away If I should put the like question to you who were thosein the age immediately before Christ came in the flesh who sincerely expounded the law and gain-sayed the Scribes and Pharisees their corrupt glosses refuced by our Saviour Matth. 5. 21. in what city or town dwelt they What writers speak of them which lived before Christs time I know you would be to seek for answer When the woman in the Apocalyps fled into the wildernesse where she was fled one thousand two hundred and threescore days and the saints Heb. 11. wandred in wildernesses and lay in dens and caves of the earth can you tell me into what wildernesse she fled or they wandered In what caves and dens they lay Yet have many worthy champions of our faith met with you even in this field and come off with credit as Abbot against Hill Usher do succes ecclesiâ—… Fox acts and monuments Field of the church Humphrey his answer to Campiâ—n his third reason The author of Catalogâ—â— test veritatis Doctor White in his way Iohan. Munster in Vortleg nobilis discursus Ioachimi Camerarii histor. narratio de fratrum orthodoxorum ecclesia in Bohemia Moravia and Polonia Ioh. Lidii Waldensis The publisher of the history of the Waldenses in France for 400 years and more Nichol Vignier eccles. histor. Birkeck the protestants evidence Peruse AEneas Sylv. his story of the Bohemians fascic. rerum expetendaruÌ„ fugiendarum you â—hal find more for the continuance of our Church till Luthers time then ever you will be able to râ—â—ell Verily Rainerius the inquisitor though entcrtained against us yet speaketh so much for us that he deserveth a fee of us the sect saith he of the Waldenses or Lionists is more pernicious to the church of Rome then all other sects First because it hath been of longest continuance for some say it hath endured ever since the apostles time Secondly because it is more generall than any other for there is almost no country into which is doth not creep Thirdly for that all other sects do bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this hath a great appearance of godlinesse because they live justly before men and beleeve all things well concerning God and all the articles