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A19220	The Catholike moderator: or A moderate examination of the doctrine of the Protestants Prouing against the too rigid Catholikes of these times, and against the arguments especially, of that booke called, The answer to the Catholike apologie, that we, who are members of the Catholike, apostolike, & Roman Church, ought not to condeme the Protestants for heretikes, vntill further proofe be made. First written in French by a Catholike gentleman, and now faithfully translated. See the occasion of the name of Huguenots, after the translaters epistle.; Examen pacifique de la doctrine des Huguenots. English	Constable, Henry, 1562-1613.; W. W., fl. 1623.	1623 (1623)	STC 5636.2; ESTC S109401	62,312	88

King the Bishops the Clergie and likewise of all the people of France Admit it were so yet for all this does it not follow that it is receiued in France vnlesse hee can shew withall that all the Estates doe receiue it that is The Church the Nobility and the People But hee makes no mention of the Nobility but onely of the Church and the third Estate so that at the most it is receiued but of two of the three Estates which may be the cause that our Aduersary to keep vp the number diuides the Church into two parts viz. Bishops and Clergie The Councell saith hee is receiued of the Bishops the Clergie and likewise of all the people of France Which is a new diuision of the Estates neuer as I perswade my selfe heard of before Iudge then what iust occasion the Nobilitie of France now haue to reiect this Councell when as those who would haue the Councell receiued doe reiect the Nobility CAP. 6. That the Huguenots may very rightly bee accounted members of the Catholike Apostolike and Romane Church THis Chapter at the first blush seemes to treat of the same Argument that the first does for hauing there proued it That the Huguenots are of the same religion with vs Catholikes it may follow also that they bee of the same Church too And yet to my thinking these two Chapters may very well bee parted not so much in regard of the difference of the nature of the subiect as of the humours of the persons For commonly when a Huguenot would draw a Catholike to his opinion he begins euermore with the particular Controuersies and so vpon the purity of his doctrine hee inferres the verity of his Church A Catholike on the other side when hee would winne a Huguenot beginnes still with the Church and so by the verity of the Church concludes the purity of his doctrine and commonly when either of them gets the other out of this tracke they are to seeke which is one of the reasons that they cannot satisfie the aduerse partie For he that would perswade another must not begin with that principle which to him seemes best though indeed it be so but with that which seemes best in his opinion whom hee desires to perswade otherwise hee shall but lose his labour For when a Huguenot shall haue vrged a thousand passages of holy Scripture to proue the truth of his owne particular assertion hee shall not bee a whit the nearer and why For that a Catholike will say instantly with himselfe What though I cannot answer him yet another may and if I am to beleeue nothing which I am not able to maintaine by disputation then should I not beleeue the proceeding of the holy Ghost the vnion of both Natures in Iesus Christ the mysteries of the holy Trinity all which I haue beleeued without being able to maintain them or so much as vnderstand them And euen so the authority of the same Church which makes mee beleeue these mysteries without being able to maintaine them makes me also to beleeue the holy sacrament of the Altar Purgatory c. without being able to maintaine them So that if a Hugu proceeds no further does not shew a reason how a man may be assured of these mysteries without the Churches authority or else which I hold more reasonable why wee ought wholly to relye vpon the authority of the Church in one point and not in another hee shall neuer say ought to the purpose Nor can the Catholikes haue any happier success in their perswasiues for when they talke to the Huguenots of the Church how the Church saies this and the Church saies that and the Church cannot erre They who are not brought vp to such kinde of phrases and who found their faith vpon this perswasion That the Scripture is cleere on their sides What care wee will they say what the Church saith so long as wee agree in opinion with the word of God So that a Catholike shall neuer bee able to perswade them to any thing if hee beginnes not at their foundation and proue that the Scripture makes not so clearely for them as they imagine it does and then when they once perceiue that they cannot confute the Catholikes by Scripture they will bee compelld to confesse That a man can haue no assurance of his faith without submitting his own iudgment to the iudgment of the Church which as wee say according to Christs owne promise is infallibly accompanied with the holy Spirit For mine own part although it bee not my intention to entice any man either to one Religion or the other but to qualifie onely the passions of men yet for feare that I should commit the same errour in this Treatise of Pacification which they often doe in the course of their perswasiues I thoght good to subioine this Chapter also to the end that my reasons might be drawne from the principles of both Religions And thus hauing proued in the first Chapter by examination of the particular questions according to the Huguenots method That they be no Heretikes I was also desirous to adde this Chapter that according to the Catholikes manner of proceeding that is as much to say as according to the Nature of the Church I might also proue them the Huguenots to be no Heretikes For it were but labour lost to tell many of our Catholikes that the Huguenots hold many of the fundamentall points of faith as well as we seeing they take not the skantling of an heretike by his opinions but only by this marke That he is out of the Church vnderstanding thereby no other Church then that which we call Catholike Apostolike and Romane excluding all those out of the Church to whom these three titles may not be giuen what opinion soeuer they be of For which reason I resolued to proue that these three titles doe belong vnto the Huguenots And first touching the title of Catholike the Church is called Catholike in three respects First in regard of it selfe 2. In regard of the Iewes 3. In regard of Heretikes Now the Church is called Catholike in regard of it selfe because in the vniuersalitie thereof it comprehends all times and all places viz the whole number of the Elect as well those who haue beene since the beginning of the world and are now departed and triumphant in heauen enioying euerlasting blisse as those that are ordained to the like blessednesse whether now aliue or to be borne hereafter Which definition is founded vpon the Scriptures for S. Pauls words are The Church of the first-borne which are written in Heauen and who are written in heauen but the Elect from whom the reprobates are in this specialty distinguished That their names are not written in the Booke of the Lambe The Church then consists of the Elect who are not restrained to any place or time For Iesus Christ hath redeemed with his bloud saith Saint Iohn Out of euery kinred and tongue and people

but a wrangling about the word as I haue shewed before when I discourst of the number of the Sacraments As for the parts Namely Contrition Confession and Satisfaction if that he blames the Huguenots for not holding them properly parts thereof I answer him That neither doe all Catholikes hold them so For Durandus makes but two parts Confession and Absolution and Scotus saies that there is but one which is Absolution But if the question be whether these three things be requisite or not the Huguenots will also say that they are to wit that it is necessary for a Penitent to haue Contrition and sorrow of heart to confesse and acknowledge our sins vnto God nay and that it is profitable also to confesse them to the Pastors of the Church but not so absolutely necessarie because according to the iudgment of the learned Catholikes this Auricular Confession was neuer instituted by God nor yet of a long time practised in the Church as Beatus Rhenanus who was himselfe a Catholike hath very well obserued Finally as for Satisfaction it is to be considered either in this life or in the life to come in Purgatory That in this life the Huguenots approue of and teach it to bee most necessary to Saluation to giue satisfaction to men whom we haue any way offended and in regard of our sins against God to walke in newnesse of life Moreouer they confesse that God punisheth men in this life by temporall afflictions yea euen those whose sins are pardoned T is true indeed that they deny any satisfaction or punishment to be in Purgatory after death for sinne but herein their error cannot be great first because S. Austen puts it down no otherwise than as a thing probable and not necessary saying no more but It may be that it is true And secondly because that neither can the Catholikes agree vpon it amongst themselues some of them placing Pargatory here vpon earth others vnder it some neither aboue nor below but in the Aire Some affirme that all the Elect shall goe thither yea the Apostles and Martyrs themselues others thrust in those only who haue not in this life giuen full satisfactiō for their sins And for the fire some would haue it a Materiall fire some fire and water others neither of both Lastly some there be that teach that the soules are there tormented by Deuils others by Angels others by neither of both How then I pray is this questiō likely to be so necessary about which there is so much vncertainty that we neither know as I haue shewed who they be that goe thither nor where it is nor by whom they are to be tormented nor what they are to suffer The difference then betwixt the Catholikes and the Huguenots is but this That the Huguenots beleeue it not at all and the Catholikes know not what they beleeue See here in briefe the Huguenots opinions vpon the points before mentioned by which we may perceiue their errours not to be in the substance of Faith and doe not therefore hinder them from being of the Church and Catholike Religion For euery errour in Theologie doth not separate a man from the Church S. Cyprian was an Anabaptist in the point of Rebaptization and yet was he a Martyr S. Hierome as I said before held those bookes of Scripture for Apocryphall which the Councell of Trent hath since concluded to be Canonicall and yet remaines hee still Canonized for a Saint Tertullian one of the ancient Fathers fell to be a Montanist And Origen alone held as many errours as all the Huguenots together yet was he one of the most famous Doctors of the whole Church And to come neerer to our times In how many questions of Diuinitie did Scotus and Thomas Aquinas differ the two prime pillars of Schoole-Diuinitie Melchior Canus and Bellarmine accuse Caietane of diuers errors who for all that remaines one of the venerable Colledge of Cardinals The Dominicans and Franciscans could neuer yet agree about our Ladies conception yet be both of them held for very good Catholikes So that as I said the Huguenots may very safely be accounted good Catholikes so long as they hold the foundation of Diuinitie although they put some few tyles out of order on the roofe of the house and build with hay and straw vpon condition still that as S. Paul saith it be vpon the same foundation Otherwise we must conclude the Martyrs the Saints the ancient Fathers the Doctors of the Church the prime Schoolemen the Cardinals yea and the Catholikes themselues to be no Catholikes CAP. 2. 〈…〉 Catholikes as well as the Huguenots doe not agree with the ancient Church in matter of Ceremonies and that therefore the Huguenots are not to be condemned AS in men we consider their bodies and their apparell so in the Church likewise we consider the Doctrine and the Ceremonies As for the doctrine or body of Religion I haue showne in the former Chapter that the Huguenots haue the braine the heart and the liuer and all other the vitall parts whole and sound that is that they yet hold all the principall points of faith and that the maine thing that can seeme to be blamed in them is that they haue some certaine warts or spots in their skinne certaine errors I meane in the circumstances and application of that faith Now for the apparell and ceremony of Religion I confesse that the Church of the Huguenots is not so gorgeously or richly set out as the Church of Rome and is for the same cause not so well entertained and more despised in the Courts of great Princes and Monarches of the world which I iudge to be the reason why the Catholike Apology endeuoured to excuse the simple and naked Ceremonies of the Reformed Church without any intent thereby to disparage the gorgeous and gay attire of the Catholike Church but to shew onely That wee should not so meanly esteeme this outward simplicity as to condemne it without hearing Euen as that officer would bee held too rigide and seuere that would hinder a poore man from presenting his Petition to the Prince because hee is not clad like a Courtier The reason for which the Apology doth excuse them is for that the ancient Church did sometimes heretofore content her selfe with the like simplicity Now vpon this occasion the Author of the answer perswades himselfe that he hath gotten a great aduantage vpon the Catholike Apology Because saith he he can proue that diuers of these ceremonies which the Huguenots doe reiect are very ancient To which I answer That I willingly accept as much as hee grants that is that he cannot proue that all the ceremonies of the Church of Rome be most ancient but onely as he saith diuers of them As for those diuers which hee instanceth in that you may see how impertinent they are I will make it appeare in these two things First that he doth not proue against the Huguenots that the Church

taking the Empire as it now is then may the Churches of Germanie some of which haue shak't off the Popes authoritie be more properly stiled members of the Roman Church than Rome it selfe insomuch as Germanie and not Rome is at this day called the Roman Empire Lastly the Roman Church is vnderstood for all those that doe in Faith communicate with the Church of Rome that is to say those that be of the Romish Religion I demand then their meaning whether they vnderstand by the Romish Religion those points in which the Huguenots doe agree with vs or those wherein they disagree from vs or both the one and the other If those points wherein they agree with vs then they are directly of the Roman faith If for the points only wherein they dissent then are the beleefe in the Trinitie and all the Articles of the three Creeds of the Apostles of Nice and of Athanasius wherein they doe agree no Articles of the Romish Religion But if they take the Roman Religion for all the points of it together both for those wherein they doe agree and all the other too I demand once againe whether so exact an agreement in all points be required or not And if not then seeing that the points whereupon the Huguenots be agreed with the Catholikes be for number more and for importance greater than those questions are vpon which they disagree they may yet neuerthelesse be reputed to be of the Roman Church and Faith forasmuch as things for the most part take their Denomination from the better part Euen as we vse to say those people are of a sanguine cōplexion in whom bloud is predominant although their temper be of other humours too But if we affirme that no man can be of this Church vnlesse he beleeues all and the selfe-same that the Church of Rome doth then say I that whilest we goe about to proue that the Huguenots be not of our Church we shall shew withal that we haue not any one man who is absolutely of the Church insomuch as that there is no one man learned or vnlearned that beleeues all iust as the Church doth For it is the credit of our Doctors to maintaine singular opinions by themselues which may be the reason why Bellarmine the greatest Aduersarie to the Huguenots accuses all the Catholikes that euer were before him of Error and those especially which haue written against the Huguenots as Genebrard Pighius Eckius Hosius Canus Caietane Scotus Durand S. Bonauenture S. Thomas S. Damascene for he spares not the Saints neither the like courtesie also shewes he to the Ancient Fathers S. Augustine S. Bernard S. Chrysostome and much adoe he hath to let S. Paul alone So that amongst so many dissentions either hath the Church beleeued nothing at all or else hath the Church beleeued them altogether that is to say contradictions or else that the Church hath beleeued but only some of them and perchance they haue all beleeued contrary to what the Church beleeueth Come we now to the common people and they vnderstand not the one halfe part of that which we teach them and when wee tell them of such points of Diuinitie wherein they were neuer brought vp their fancies framing Idea's vnto themselues vpon what they heare make them conceiue Chimaera's in their braines and to beleeue the quite contrary to what the Church doth before they are well aware of it But our Catholikes now haue found out a remedie for that which is That an implicite Faith is enough for the common people which is as much to say as to thinke only to beleeue only as the Church doth though they doe not so indeed So then seeing that an implicite Faith is To beleeue the contrary and yet thinke they beleeue the same if we could but once perswade the Huguenots that they doe verily beleeue as our Church of Rome doth in euery thing although indeed they doe not they shall be of our Church See then if I haue not taken a better method to conuert them than any other Catholikes haue yet light vpon They labour to conuert them to our Explicite faith which were to make them beleeue all the particulars of our Faith And I perceiuing them altogether vncapable of this Explicite Faith haue endeuoured my selfe to make them embrace the Implicite Faith which is much the easier of the two and to perswade them to beleeue that they doe already beleeue as our Church beleeueth and consequently that their Faith is the same and their Church the same That so by this perswasion they may proue if not so good Catholiques as the Priests yet at least as good Catholiques as the people But to returne againe to my purpose it appeares by what hath beene said that if we stand for so strict an vnion in euery point then will not the Catholiques themselues neither learned nor vnlearned be of the Roman Church Forasmuch as the learned will not beleeue as the rest doe and the vnlearned cannot And would we content our selues with an essentiall vnion the Huguenots may then well be of it Whereupon it followes that we must needs yeeld to one of these That either the Huguenots are of the Roman Church or else that the Catholikes are not FINIS Errata in some Copies Pag. 54. l. 5. for Authoritie in the first place reade Articles End Henry 3. Henry 4. a Henry 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The first Reason Pag. 20. Pag. 21. Pag. 21. Pag. 21. The second Reason Lindanus in prefat in Lib. de querela pacis Scripture Pag. 23. Tom. 1. Contr. 1. l. cap. 4. Iustification Free-will Pag. 24. The Coniunction of Faith Grace p. 23. Merit of Workes Serm. 1. de anuntiatione Beatae Virginis Prayer Pag. 26. Tom. 1. Contr. 6. lib. 3. cap. 15. The Sacraments and their number Pag. 25. The difference betwixt our Sacraments and those of the old Law Pag. 26. Tom. 2. contr 1. lib. 2. cap. 1. The efficacie of Baptisme Pag. 23. Of Infants dying without Baptisme The Baptisme of Iohn Transubstantiation Pag. 26. Theod. Dialog Gelasius lib. de duabus naturis The Sacrifice of the Masse Pag. 26. Heb. 7. 10. Thomas part quest 83. Artic. 1. Aug. ad Bonifacium epist. 23. Penance Pag 26. In Annotat. ad lib. Tertull. de poenitent a. Purgatorie Pag 26. Lib. 21. de Civ Dei cap. 26. That the Church of Rome agrees not with the Primitiue Church in matter of ceremonies Signe of the Crosse. Pag. 27. Praying towards the East Pag. 28. Lib. 5. cap. 21. Inuocation of the Eucharist Blessing of the water in Baptisme Pag. 28. Homil. 25. in Iohan. Consecration and vse of Oyle in Baptisme Pag 28. Tertull lib. de corona militis Lent Epiphan haerest 75. Hieronim contra Lucif Sacrifice for the dead Baptisme of infants Mixture of water with the wine in the Chalice Perpetuall single life Solitary life Sozomen Histor. lib. 1. cap. 12. Orders of Monkes Athanasius ad Dracontium Election of Meates Tripartite 9. 38. Holy-daies Lib. 5. cap. 21. Soz. 7. 19. That the Huguenots are not to be blamed for leauing off the Ceremonies of the ancient Church Epist. 119. 19. 1 Consid. Aug. Epist. 112 2 Consid. Stapleton Princip Doctrin cont 4. lib. 6. cap. 15. Andradius defen●fid●●●dent Lib. 4. Co●cil Trid. Sess. 3. 3. Cons. ● Cons. Transubstantiation Councell of Lateran Councell of Vienna Councell of Florence Freewill Children dying without Baptisme Worshipping of Images That the Doctrine o● the Huguenots is not the same with that of the ancient Heretikes already condemned Retractat lib. 2. cap. 17. Prayer for the dead Set Fasting daies Euseb. 5. 16. Distinction of Bishops and Priests Comment in cap. 1. Epist. ●d Titum Mariage and Virginity Merits of Saints Worshipping of Saints and their Reliques Election of meats Durand l. 6 de aliis ieiuniis 〈◊〉 * En denier resort Sigonius de oceidentis Imp. l. ● Tom. 1. Cont. 4. Lib. 4. Cap. 9. Obiect 2. Obiect 3. Theod. l. 10. c. 70. 2. Reason 3. Reason 4. Reason Rab. Sal. ●archi in Deute onom 5. Reason Mat. 17. 1 Obiection 1 Reason 2 Reason 3 Reason The massacre Anno Dom. 1572 4 Reason 2. Obiection Catholike How the Church is called Catholike in respect of it selfe Heb. 12. 23. Reuel 13. 18. Reuel 5. 9. August de Catechizandis Rudibus cap. 12. Greg. Mor. in Iob. lib. 28. cap. 9. 2 Tim. 2. 19. How the Church is called Catholike in respect of the Iewes Mat. 13. Ephes. 2. 14. How the Church is called Catholike in regard of Heretikes Bernard in Cantica Sermone 38 Ephes. 5. Cant. 1. Vincent Lyr. l. aduers. haereses Eodem lib. adu haeres Tertul. lib de praescript adu haeres Apostolike How the Huguenots may be said to be of the Roman Church Rom. 1. 8. 1 Thess. 1. 8.

THE CATHOLIKE MODERATOR OR A MODERATE EXAMINATION OF THE DOCTRINE of the PROTESTANTS Prouing against the too rigid CATHOLIKES of these times and against the Arguments especially of that Booke called The Answer to the Catholike Apologie That we who are members of the CATHOLIKE APOSTOLIKE ROMAN CHVRCH ought not to condeme the PROTESTANTS for HERETIKES vntill further proofe be made First written in French by a Catholike Gentleman and now faithfully translated See the occasion of the name of HVGVENOTS after the Translaters Epistle LONDON Printed for NATHANIEL BVTTER 1623. THE TRANSLATER TO the Christian Readers AND TO ALL THOSE ESPECIALly whose hard hap it is or may be to be seduced vnto Popery That by the helpe of this Booke and their owne Prayers they may be deliuered from the the Euill when the Priests and Iesuits would Lead them into temptation THere is a bold Nation of men the Tempters aboue mentioned I meane slily of late crept in amongst you well-meaning and abused people whose enticements as you know too well still begin with the Church saying you Protestants are direct Hereticks you haue no Church Are you therefore reconciled to the Church Meaning all this time the Romane Church Had they fairely meant the Catholike Church I know no Caluinist that hath put this Article out of his Creed I beleeue in the holy Catholike Church And to say I beleeue What else implies it but to beleeue himselfe to be of it else why his Creed That therefore you may make one Romanist to answer all the rest doe but turne him that would seduce you vnto these two first Chapters and he shall there finde that for those few points of Reformation both in matter of Doctrine and Ceremonie wherein the Protestants haue iustly dissented from the Papists we can be no Heretiques And that their owne new Doctors who boast so much of Antiquitie can no where shew our Doctrine to be sufficiently condemned before the time of that fifth Gospell of the Romanists the Councell of Trent I meane which ended no more than some 60 yeeres agoe the third Chapter will euidently shew them And how incompetent a Iudge an Aduersarie is and how vnlawfull a Councell that of Trent was the Instances of the fourth and fifth Chapters will euince it Lastly that we Protestants hauing euer continued true members of the true holy and catholique Church doe not now need any Reconciliation to theirs of Rome the last Chapter will abundantly demonstrate it Which six Chapters being written by a Gentleman who euery where professes himselfe one of theirs if they would offer to shift off as they haue euasions enow by saying that what is written in this Booke is but the opinion of one Doctor Loe then we haue not only the Authors opinions but the strength of his reasons to vrge them withall All which are so mannerly so directly and so succinctly toucht vpon and come off so handsomely as no man in my opinion hath yet said better that purposed to say so little To giue you therefore the minde of the Authour in a word Nothing was here written with any intention to vrge vs Protestants any whit to depart from our Right in yeelding to a Reconciliation with them but to perswade them rather to esteeme better of vs and to demonstrate withall that if they will iudge right they must needs thinke well And this is the purpose of the Translator also To shew you therefore to vnderstand all this Booke If the Reader shall sometimes feele that this Author now and then giues the Protestants a light fillip by the way he shall obserue in the conclusion that it was to reach his owne Romanists a smarter blow which is satisfaction enough And that hee giues vs any at all let vs but consider that the Author though he were a moderate man yet that he was withall a Papist and it will take away much of the scandall Lastly which will giue vs as much aduantage as we can desire from one man which is to answer them by one of their owne this Gentleman the Author H. C. was too well knowne here in England to haue continued a most zealous Roman Catholique vntill his dying day and yet neuerthelesse are all his Reasons for Moderation directed to the Papists as if they should first begin it and all his conclusions directly for the Protestants as though we should still hold them Nay and which is somewhat more whereas all this is with vs of England common to our Brethren the Protestants of France yet doth this Booke make more for vs at home than it doth for them for whose sakes it was first written For though we haue with them entertained the points of Reformation yet haue we not so far receded from the more Primitiue Roman Church which he stands for but that we still retaine more of the necessarie Ceremonies Solemnities and Church Discipline than they of France haue done witnesse his second Chapter of Ceremonies which is still for our aduantage As therefore this little Booke hath beene twice already printed in France which is an Argument of the Protestants good liking of it there so hath it foure or fiue seuerall times both by Diuines and Gentlemen of our owne Religion been translated both into Latine and English which is a demonstratiue Reason to me how much it hath beene lik'd and desired To saue therefore the labour of writing it out which I still obserued as many desirous to doe as could get Copies of it I haue thought fit to let mine be published desiring all those that light vpon it to be as impartiall and charitable as the Author himselfe wishes them which if they be I hope well that the strictest need not be offended and the well-minded may reape much benefit by it Which being my only desire I shall euer pray for THE FIRST OCCASION how the name of HVGVENOTS which our Author euery where vseth came first to be giuen to the French PROTESTANTS THere is euer some Salt as well as Gall in malice and this temper makes it sometimes bitterly witty as may appeare by this name of Huguenots by which and no other doe the French Papists generally vouchsafe to call the Protestants It was taken vp about the yeere 1559. which was some foure or fiue yeeres before Mr. Calvins death Till which time they were called Tourengeaux of the Citie of Tours where the Protestants mostly vsed But about that time there hauing beene a foolish opinion of a Night-Spirits walking vp and downe the streets which they called King Hugon This fancie made one of the Citie Gates to be called King Hugons Gate and the Protestants being once obserued in the night to goe thorow that Gate vnto their Assemblies and holy Exercises were hereupon called Huguenots He that will see more of this Name and the occasion of it may finde a handsome Discourse of it in Monsieur Pasquiers Recherches lib. 7. cap. 52. whither I refer you TO ALL THE KINGS FAITHFVL SVBIECTS and principally

some other Catholikes doe hold that the Emperour Trajanes soule was deliuered out of Hell by the prayers of S. Gregory notwithstanding that he died a Painim and without Baptisme If they then be not Heretiques that teach the mercy of God to be so great that he saued one who had sinned actually notwithstanding that he died without Faith and without Baptisme why should it be accounted Heresie to say that he sometimes saues little Innocents who neuer had more than Originall Sin For it is a more extraordinary thing to draw one out of Hell than to keepe one from going thither And what fauour God had shewen to one he may likewise shew to many As for that text of S. Iohn Regenerate of water and of the Holy Ghost it is to shew that the ordinary meanes vnto saluation is to conioyne the outward signe to the inward grace according to S. Pauls saying That with the heart man belieues vnto righteousnes with the tongue he confesses to saluation which shewes thus much that ordinarily the outward cōfessiō goes with the inward affection nor can it be inferred out of the former text That faith can neuer be without the confessiō of the mouth no more than it can by the other that Grace cannot be without the washing of the body Finding now no great matter in the Huguenots Doctrine blame-worthy about the Baptisme of Christ he descends to the Baptisme of Iohn which in the Huguenots opinion differs not at all from that of Christ. To which I answer That all the Huguenots hold not this opinion Secondly that this difference is of no such great importance because that they that hold it doe it not to derogat from the Baptisme of Christ for that they esteeme it not Iohns Baptisme but Christs administred by Iohn before Christs declaring of himselfe as it was by the Apostles afterwards Finally all this dispute is not about Christs Baptisme which the people receiue but about Iohns which they receiue not and consequently it matters not much to vnderstand the force efficacie of it In the next place followes the Sacrament of the Altar which comprehends two differences propounded in the answer Which be Christs presence in it and the Sacrifice of the Masse Vpon the first the Huguenots are accorded with the Catholikes in the thing it selfe that is That our Sauiour is truly present in the holy Sacrament and that we doe eat his body and drinke his blood The difference only lies in the manner how he is present how we eat and drinke him Which errour cannot touch the foundation of Faith for as much as according to our Catholike Doctors opinion it was left free for euerie man by the space of 1000 yeeres after Christs death to beleeue this presence of his in what manner they thought best prouided that they beleeue it at all Whence it is manifest that it is but the Huguenots ill luck to liue in such a rigorous age of the Church otherwise they should not for this haue beene heretickes For diuers of the ancient Fathers were infected with this errour Theodoret yea and Gelasius too who was also Pope haue written in expresse words That euen after the Consecration of these holy Mysteries the very nature and substance of the bread remained still True it is that the Huguenots may well be shent for reuiuing of this errour when they see that the Church of Rome and which is more the Pope himselfe hath condemned it neuerthelesse seeing that Gelasius who was likewise a Pope held the verie same error we Catholikes should doe well to qualifie it all we can for the reputation of the Sea Apostolique Now for the Sacrifice of the Masse they both confesse with St. Paul that there is but one Sacrifice for sinne namely that one of Iesus Christ vpon the Crosse in such sort that the Catholikes affirme not that they make any new Oblation but only represent that former one so oftentimes ouer as they celebrate the Eucharist in which Christ is continually offered vp But for as much as St. Paul teaches That there is not only but one Sacrifice but also that Iesus Christ is but once offered this Doctrine of ours had neede be verie subtilly interpreted which no man in my iudgement could finelier doe then St. Thomas Aquinas who saith That this Sacrament is named an Immolation of Christ in two regards the first for that as St. Austin saith Signes are called by the names of the things whereof they be Signes the second for that by vertue of this Sacrament we are made partakers of the death of Iesus Christ. Well let vs see then how far the Huguenots accord with St. Thomas in these two manners of the offering vp of Christ Iesus For the first seeing that it is collected out of St. Austen let vs heare him in his owne words He falsifies not saith he who saies that Iesus Christ is offered vp euerie day for if the Sacraments had not a kind of resemblance of the things whereof they be Sacraments they could not be Sacraments at all and by reason of this resemblance they ordinarily take the names of the things themselues According to which interpretation the Huguenots will also say that Christ is offered vp in the Sacrament for as much as the Sacraments haue the name of the things which they signifie And seeing that the Eucharist signifies the death of Christ a man may well giue the same tearme to the Eucharist which he does to his death And for as much as he was offered vp by his death the Huguenots will confesse likewise that he is also offered vp in the Eucharist by reason as St. Austen saith of this resemblance betweene them Concerning the second respect for which S. Thomas saies that the Eucharist is called the Immolation of Iesus Christ that is for that in the Sacrament we are made partakers of the death of Iesus Christ the Huguenots will also agree thereunto For it is their common phrase of speech to say that in this Supper they are made partakers of the death and passion of Iesus Christ. Now if there be any third way of offering questionlesse it is no matter of any great importance for that S. Thomas was so good a Catholike and so subtle a Logician and aboue all so experienced in the distinctions and other stratagems of the Schoole would neuer haue made mention barely of two manners of offerings had there been any third of any consequence The last Sacrament which he instances in is Penance wherein the Author of the answer obserues no difference but onely names it in that fashion that I cannot see what fault hee findes in the Huguenots doctrine But to picke out his meaning I trow that the difference lies principally in two points That is to say Whether this Penance be well called a Sacrament or not and secondly What be the parts of it For the first point of the title of Sacrament It is

from an Heretike in another signification which in truth was according to the proper interpretation of the word taking Catholike or Vniuersall for a marke of the true Church For which reason in the ancient Church when as the whole visible Church yet retained the faith receiued from the Apostles and that some part of it became corrupted for the exact discerning vnto whether side we ought to leane Vincentius Lyrinensis gaue this Rule What else should we doe saith he but prefer the safety of the body before a rotten member And therefore for that the body of the Church was at that time sound all the Church was called Catholike for so much this word Body as well as that word Catholike implies an vniuersality so that the distinction of Catholike and Heretike serues but to distinguish the sound body from a corrupted member But so soone as the body it selfe became corrupted then this rule and distinction failed For which reason Vincentius makes a difference betweene a Catholike in place and a Catholike in time And euer when a Catholike in place is not a sure marke he hath recourse vnto a Catholike in time But saith he if any new infection goes on not onely to corrupt a part but the whole Church then must we cleaue to antiquity So that the difference between the Catholikes and the Huguenots lying in this point Whether the body of the Church be corrupted or no wee must not speake of the Church which is Catholike according to place but according to time And that Church is Catholike saith Vincentius which holds that religion which hath beene euer hitherto embraced And to discerne which Religion hath beene alwayes embraced when as the body of the Church or the visible Church as saith the same Vincentius is corrupted we must still haue recourse vnto Antiquity and say with Tertullian Illudverum quod primum That is truest which is ancientest So as that is the Catholike Church which agrees in faith with the more Primitiue Church So that if wee would discusse it whether the Catholikes or the Huguenots be most properly the right Catholikes wee must consider first whether of them best holds of the faith of the Apostles and next of that of the ancient Doctors and Councels of the Church As for the Title Apostolike The Church may bee called Apostolike as well in regard of the Writings as of the Preaching of the Apostles As for their Writings those Churches which imbrace the doctrine deliuered in them are intituled Apostolike yea and more or lesse Apostolike as they do more or lesse agree or disagree to or from the said doctrine So that the word Apostolike is all one with the word Orthodox or with Catholike taken in the last signification And if the Church of the Huguenots may bee intituled Catholike or Orthodox they may also by the same reason be called Apostolike nay and more properly Apostolike then Catholike For the visible Church being as I haue shewed not absolutely but comparatiuely more or lesse Catholike or Apostolike the Huguenots though they may offend in default and so be lesse Catholike rather yet in this they offend rather in the excesse and are too Apostolike as being so strict that they will readily beleeue nothing but what the Apostles haue written Secondly those Churches were called Apostolike which were instructed by the liuely voice of the Apostles and where the Apostles haue had their seats as Ierusalem Antioch Ephesus Alexandria c. where the Apostles Peter Iames Iohn and Marke the Euangelist sate and are therefore from all Antiquity styled Apostolicall Seaes as well as Rome howbeit that this signification is rather an ornament then a mark of a pure Church For Antioch Alexandria and other Churches of Greece where the Apostles preached haue either altogether forsaken the name of Christ or are at the least according to the Catholikes Tenet quite cut off for Schisme and Heresie from the communion of the true Church and France Spaine Poland Germany England and Denmarke where the Apostles neuer had any Bishopricks haue sithence beene the true Churches So that in this signification a Church may bee pure and yet not bee Apostolike and a Church which is Apostolike may be impure The last title though first in estimation with the Catholiques is that of Roman which I haue obserued to haue beene taken in three seuerall sorts First the Roman Church is only taken for the Diocesse of Rome and was in the beginning for the Citie of Rome alone As in S. Pauls time who inscribed an Epistle seuerally to Rome alone as he did likewise to those Churches of Corinth Ephesus Galatia c. For had the Church of Rome beene euery where at that time spread abroad he had not needed to haue written to other Churches seuerally because that in writing to that of Rome he had then written to them all And yet would our people needs make vse of this Epistle to proue by it The Roman church to be the catholique Church because that in it S. Paul saies Your faith is spread abroad in all the world as if S. Paul had not said the same to the Church of Thessalonica Your faith which you haue to God-ward is spread abroad But had the Church of Rome beene as they would haue it esteemed by S. Paul as all one with the Catholique without all doubt his Epistle to the Romans had beene intituled Catholique as well as those of S. Iohn S. Peter S. Iames and S. Iude which are therefore stiled Catholique for that they were written to the Catholique Church Now taking the Roman Church in this signification I confes that not the Huguenots Churches alone are separated from the Roman Church but all other catholique Churches besides so that to this day they in France make a distinction of sundry customes of the Roman Church and of the Church Gallicane Secondly the Church of Rome is taken for the Westerne Church insomuch that the Roman Latine and Occidental Church doth signifie one and the same thing to distinguish it from the Greeke and Easterne Church iust as the Empire of the East and the Empire of the West were called the Empires of Rome and of Constantinople because that these two Cities were the chiefe seats of the Empire and so by reason of the dignitie of the Citie of Rome which was the seat of the Emperours that reigned in the West all this Westerne part was called the Roman Empire and all the Westerne Church the Roman Church that is to say The Church contained vnder the Roman Empire So then if we call it the Roman Church for distinguishing it from the Greeke and Easterne Churches then also may the Huguenots Churches be members likewise of the Roman Church for that they be Westerne and not Greeke nor Easterne Churches If in respect of the Roman Empire taking the Roman Empire largely as it was they also be vnder the Empire and by consequence vnder the Church But