the Scriptures and of Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of humane faith though it be in words never so plaine and expresse yet it giues not being to the Church for the Church subsisteth in it selfe and differeth from all other societies by supernaturall not by naturall or humane endowments and this I take as granted In the second sense the Proposition is true namely The profession even in so many words of these fundamentall truthes There be Scriptures Christ came to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith is the very soule of the Church and so essentiall therto that without it there can be no Christian Church and where that is the Church is also because it is so operatiue wheresoever it doth encline that all other things requisite to a Christian Church does follow according as this Opponent writeth pag. 21.29.34 CHAP. 12. The Romish Church directly denies salvation by Christ BVt in this sense the Assumption is false the present Romish Church does in words and professedly deny the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners according vnto the voice of divine faith and I proue it thus They that doe not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners doe professedly deny his comming to saue sinners for in this case a not confession is a professed negation and so accounted by our Saviour who saith he that is not with me is against me he that gathereth not scattereth Matth. 12.30 And good reason hee should so esteeme it for such a not confession is a voluntary omission of our duty This is the will of my heavenly Father that yee beleeue on him whom hee hath sent Ioh. 6.29 Even all men whatsoever because the earth is his inheritance and the vttermost ends thereof is his possession Psal 2.8 Wee see the truth hereof in the omission of any duty Hee that withheld his tythes is held professedly to deny the paying of tythes Mal. 3.8 He that honoureth not his parents is reckoned professedly to dishonour his Parents Matth. 15.6 This Proposition then being very evident I thus assume But the Romish Church doth not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith because the faith of that Church by meanes of the foundation thereof is humane and not divine as hath beene manifestly proved cap. 4. num 7. c. He thinks to shrowd himselfe vnder the authority of our Church which hee vrgeth negatiuely thus Our Church does charge her to erre in matter of faith Art 19 but not with direct deniall of salvation by Christ Therefore the Romish Church is not so to bee charged I answer 1. he takes the authority of our Church to be of moment I demand then why he disputes against her all this while yea against her doctrine subscribed by himselfe 2. The consequence is nought our Churches silence argues not the Romish Church to be innocent for this question of denying or not denying was not in being when her faith was published This was done Anno 1562. that began Anno 1588. or neere thereupon for any thing I can yet learne or this Opponent proue 3. The Antecedent is false for two reasons 1. Errours in matters of faith may be a direct deniall of salvation by Christ for he that so denies errs in matter of faith and we must thinke our Church meant so because her words will beare it and this Opponent cannot shew the contrary 2. Our Church in the second Homily for Whitsontide often times already alledged does deny her to be built vpon Christ the corner stone in that foundation and that importeth a direct deniall of salvation by Christ because he that sits besides that foundation shall goe without salvation This proofe and defence being considered we may safely rest in this conclusion The Romish Church according to the voice of divine faith professedly denies Christs comming to saue sinners and accordingly we haue the victory and ours is the day according to this Opponents offer and our acceptation num 4. chap. 11. I might proceed to proue their professed deniall of the Scriptures vpon the same ground but I forbeare to doe it because the Reader may see this Argument serues for both that and this by changing the termes This Opponent seemeth to qualifie his former recited promise and calleth vs as he thinkes to a new reckoning pag. 22 23. wherein hee writeth thus They overthrow the foundation directly to whom Christ is an execration And to tread vnder foot the sonne of God to count the blood of the covenant wherewith all wee are sanctified an vnholy thing and to doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 is directly to deny the foundation And then he assumes in these words Of which crime whosoever is able let him indict the Church of Rome producing sufficient evidence thereof and whosoever shall open his mouth to plead for them let him be guilty of all the dishonour that ever hath beene done to the Sonne of God and lyable to the Apostles curse 1 Cor. 16.22 I answere this is his last refuge if therefore he failes in this he is gone for ever In true forme he reasoneth thus They that directly deny salvation by Christ are guilty as aforesaid But the Romish Church are not so guilty Therefore the Romish Church denies not directly salvation by Christ I may except against the Assumption with better reason then he can argue for it wherefore this I say The Romish Church is so guilty for They that know and belieue Christs comming to saue sinners onely by naturall reason and humane faith They tread him vnder foote account his blood vnholy and doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 because the naturall man perceiveth or receiveth not the things of God as they are the things of God forasmuch as they are spiritually discerned 1 Cor. 2.14 The very wisedome of the flesh is enmitie vnto God Rom. 8.7 But the Romish Church does know and beleiue Christs comming to saue sinners only by naturall reason and humaine faith for all their knowledge and beleiving ariseth vpon the teaching of the Pastors of their Church which is meerly humaine because they haue no Commission for such teaching as appeareth Cap. 4. num 7. c. If any man doe iudge that the place alledged Heb. 10.29 mean no more but thus then I rest here as in a sufficient answer to this argument and claim this Opponents finall promise last mentioned and so we are at an end for this cause the day is ours we must carry the victory and the signes thereof leading these Opponents in tryumph If the Apostle be vnderstood to speake of more then this then I deny the Proposition as wanting the very shew of truth I say some men directly deny salvation by Christ who are not guiltie as aforesaid and I haue two reasons for it the first is this Iewes and Pagans are not guilty as aforesaid for the parties so guilty haue received the knowledge of the truth
destroyer thereof and thus doe these Opponents the life of our Church and all the members thereof is made and vnited together into one body by the Articles of her faith he then that overthrowes and destroyes those Articles discipates and haleth in peeces her whole body and being and thus doe these Opponents in their deed in question Punishment is due vnto them so much J hope J may say without offence vnto your high and honourable authority because the thing it selfe is so apparent Very reason it selfe doth tell vs The subversion of every being that is good makes guilty of punishment Now the deed in question being a subversion of the faith of our Church of England by the same rule must needs likewise make so guilty The degree of this punishment J dare not name J may not thinke vpon seeing the cause now in hand is presented before your sacred Tribunall whose office it is to discerne determine and adiudge the same Yet with all submission J craue a word or two of that matter If any vnder the command of Rome should oppose the very words of the Trent Councell especially where the thing is decreed explorately so as no question can bee made of her sense meaning such a one J say should bee held worthy of no small punishment and we certainly know it because such persons are pronounced accursed by that Councell pursued with fire and all extremity as perpetuall experience doth shew If these Opponents lived in that Church should defend this sentence The office of judging the sense meaning of the Scriptures belongs not to the Church we might easily guesse at their punishment Jf then hat Church esteemeth such opposition vnto her faith to demerit so highly how can we esteeme to deserue but little seeing what their faith is to them the same our faith is to vs but with this difference their faith is erronious so is not ours as the ensuing discourse will evidently shew how much then an opposition to an erronious faith is lesse hurtfull then an opposition to a true faith so much more punishment doto be deserue that opposeth ours more then he that opposeth theirs thus much is all wherewith I will trouble you touching the deed in question Now J hope J may also without reproofe shew some other reason whereupon to moue you If this deed be let passe without controle see what will follow 1. Our enemies of the Romish Church will triumph over vs and thus they will argue With you is not the true Church for where that is there is vnity and a meanes of vnity in all matters of faith but these are not with you for see your Church beleeveth that the Romish Church hath not the nature of the true Church yet two of yours yea after their subscription doe out face her with the contradictory carry it away when they haue done no man sayes black is their eye 2. The salvation of the vnstable vnwise will be really hindred such a man will say vnto our Church if you taught mee the way to life doubtlesse you would agree in it or suppresse the gainsayers seeing therefore you doe neither the one nor the other wee must conclude that the way to life is not with you consequently it is no where for in your iudgement the Romish Church hath it not or at least men of good parts might say if you agree not vpon the way to heaven then 't is hopelesse for vs to finde it because with you are the aged in yeeres great in experience abundant in learning considerate in resolving in the office of governing if our hopes to finde heaven be vaine idle why shall we bestow our paines that wayes who would labour without profit who would lay out his silver to fill his belly with the East winde Surely no man wherefore here is our rest seeing there is no profit in the service of God we will determine with our selves say We care not for the knowledge of the most high let vs cast his lawes behind our back let vs eate and drink for to morrow wee shall die 3. The glory of our Church at least is abated nay I may truly say her beauty is stayned with an eye-sore too vgly to be looked vpon He that casteth dirt in his Mothers face wherein nothing is wanting for feature or complexion shall haue little thankes for his labour what then shall bee bee accounted that scratcheth her till shee bleedes Nay more that pulleth off treadeth vnder foote all the ornaments of her countenance If our Opponents gaue the lye to a man of honest reputation hee should disgrace him not a little but if hee charged him with that lye to the losse of his credit for ever we know he should burt him finally for ever But thus J say if no better then on this manner deale these Opponents with their Mother the Church of England shee hath determined what must bee held in certaine points of religion in that her countenance exceeds in beauty because she did so determine for the avoiding of contention and setling of Peace Peace yea Peace that visage of Peace the most louely delightfull and acceptable countenance of all countenances yet beholde cease not to wonder our two Opponents will not keepe this peace they haue broken downe the walls of that fortresse what shee intended for vnity concord they divert to fraction and discord so haue robbed her of her goodly beautious feature complexion Nay which is more they haue given her that lye which will stick to her ribbs for ever without the exemplary punishment of these offendours for if she be false in her greatest children for learning gravity wisedome piety all met together when they gaue that witnesse then who will trust her for if her word can be true at any time it would be true then Now those each one of them are so inconvenient that J conceiue they must be esteem'd so intollerable if that be so wee haue good reason to bemoane our selues vnto you seeke for redresse at your hands Can wee imagine that our Church and the soules of her children onely shall bee losers by this deed in question Surely no man can bee so much mistaken for marke if they scape with this deed who will not thus argue If Opposers in matters of faith bee not reck ned offedours then Opposers in matters of State must be held innocent seeing the first is of more dangerous consequence then the second If wee may oppose the State who vvill obey seeing liberty is better fancied then subiection Jf vvee are freed from obedience then farevvell government seeing to governe to obey are such relatiues as doe stand fall together If then governing obeying be taken avvay all things come to confusion As then vvee vvill a void destruction to our Church Common-vvealth so must vve open our selues before you eraue your
writes the word the second way then folly is his name and madnesse is with him But who is it that he offers to instruct Not schollers in a Grammar schoole no no these are to meane for him to worke vpon It is his Mother whome he must deale withall his Mother I say that bred him and nourisheth him must be subiect now to his rod and ferula O happy Mother may she well say that hath such a Child so ripe that in so few yeares can instruct his Mother and thrice happy Sonne that is growne vp with such speed that so soone as he can but crawle he presently can sustaine and succour his Mother I know this will be Catoes sentence therefore Cato speake and spare not wee know thou wilt say as we doe therefore we will heare and feare not He telleth vs Gods Spirit dwels with him and by the inspiration thereof he hath vnderstanding Therefore he must speake you you must not â—eare them If he proue the Antecedent I grant the consequent but that he cannot nay 't is impossible Gods spirit is fish of temperance humility meeknesse kindenesse loue so as he that is taught by that Maister hath learned these lessons His schollers are not proud vaine bosters of themselues their minds are not lifted vâ—â—n them but they esteeme others better then themselue If we lay our present Opponent to this rule in what case shall we find him agrees he with it Does he notswarue from it Let this title and conclusion of his Epistle giue Iudgement I say no more though I know Cato would say no lesse yea we are sure he would exceed us much and thus am I come to an end of my answere to such things as concerne the disputation in common and therefore I will proceed in the next place to a formall dispute of the question it selfe CHAP. 1. Of the question and parties to the disputation IN the following discourse we inquire after these two questions 1 Whether the present Romish Church be the true Church or not 2 Whether the professors of the present Romish faith can be saved or not These two doe mutually imply each other So as we may truely say if she be a Church then is there saluation in her if salvation then a Church and contrarywise wherefore the proofe of the first confirmes the latter The parties to the present disputation are our Church and all her true and lawfull children vpon the one part And two of her vnnatutall children make the other part Which of them hath the truth I hope by Gods grace openly to discover before we end this Treatise Our Church holds the negatiue in the first question and hath set her sentences downe in the second Homilie for whitsontide in these words 1 The state of the present Church of Rome is so far wide from the nature of the true Church that nothing can be more 2 The Bishops of Rome and their adherents are not the true Church of Christ 3 The true Church is not at Rome The first and second of the alledged sentences are expressely found barely set downe as I haue alledged them and they are sufficient to let vs know the faith of our Church in the matter in hand The third is necessarily implyed by our Church at these words If it be possâ—ble for Gods spirit to be there where the true Church is not then is it at Rome In this latter sentence our Church presumes that the true Church is not at Rome otherwise the inference would be fond and ridiculous and indeed the Disputation in that place being framed according to Art standeth thus Where the holy Ghost is there is the true Church But at Rome there is not the true Church Therefore the holy Ghost is not at Rome The Proposition is pursued after the words last alledged the Assumption is confirmed by arguments going before Thus our Church by repeating the same conclusion often sheweth vs how serious she is in the matter and by often varying her manner of speaking we cleerely vnderstand her meaning The foresaid two opponents doe hold the affirmatiue against our Church namely The Church of Rome as she is at this present is a true Church As page 30 in the one and page 18. in the other Before we enter vpon the discussion hereof we must first vnderstand the termes wherein this question is delivered By Romish Church we meane the Bishops of Rome and their adherents that is to say all such both Clergie and Laytie which liue in the Romish Religion and communicate in her faith and make vp one society or body By true Church we vnderstand a Society or congregation which hath these essentiall qualities that concurre vnto the being and forme of a Church And herein all sides agree as the Reader may finde in the Homilie alledged and in both our opponents in page 13 of the one and page 15 17. and 100. of the other We must also further knowe that the Râ—mish faith consisteth either in the Vniversall consent of their learned or in the Decrees of their Councels or in both The first is their Catholick the second is their divine faith So as he that professeth their religion and communicates in their faith beleeues as they doe in the manner aforesaid Hitherto I haue alledged the Homilie as the doctrine of our Church and I presume none will reproue me for it because all that booke is solemnly confirmed as such by our State It is to be read in all our Churches by publike appointment and is subscribed vnto by all our Ministers as conteining Doctrine godly wholesome and necessary I say it is so subscribed vnto because the 36 Canon requireth that no person shal be received into the Ministry nor suffered to exercise any part of the Ministeriall function in any place within this Realme except he shall first subscribe amongst other things vnto the 39 Articles of Religion agreed vpon by the whole Clergy Anno 1562. Now the 36 Canon in commanding subscription to the said 39 Articles doth also consequently command subscription to the bookes of Homilies because the 35 Article doth no more but ratifie confirme the former and second booke of Homilies Now if the present Homilie be the doctrine of our Church then the sentences alledged out of the same can be no lesse for they are such a maine and principall part thereof that the Homilie cannot subsist without them And thus I hope every Reader hath direction enough touching the state of the question and the parties to the Disputation CHAP. 2. Of our first Argument for the maine question and of their generall answer thereunto OVr Church in the Homilie already recited hath an argument expresly thus The true Church is built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the present Romish Church is not built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets for they reteyne not the sound and pure doctrine of Christ
the Scriptures vnto the Churches Iudgement they would haue vs beleeue that the Church must tell vs which be the Scriptures and which be not else we can haue no divine faith of them for reason tells vs they must haue authority in all points of faith or none at all This decree of the Councel thus vnderstood is followed by all their Divines and Suarez giues it vs in this one sentence A generall Councell in which the Pope is present either in his owne person or by his Legats and confirmed by the Pope is an infallible rule of Faith And this is a matter of Faith De Fide c. Tracta 1. Disp 5. Sect. 7. No. 6. 9. Bellarmine delivereth the selfe same matter in a most ample large manner in divers places in his third booke of Gods word and I will report them in order as they stand and thus he begins Cap. 3. Tota igitur The Church that is the Pope with his Councell of other Pastors is the Iudge of the true sense of the Scriptures in which all Catholikes agree and the Councell of Trent hath it expresly Sess 4. It is committed singularly to Peter and his Successours that they should teach all men what is to be held concerning the doctrine of Faith Cap. 5. Ex his c. The Councels and Popes execute the office of a Iudge committed to them by God a Iudge delivereth his sentence as a thing that necessarily must be followed Cap. 10. Respond aliud est Christians are bound to receiue the doctrine of the Church when it setteth forth the matters of faith and not to doubt whether those things be so or not Cap. 10. sept argumentum Hitherto he setteth forth the matter in grosse and not vnfoulded wherefore we must seeke for that also and we shall finde the same in the said 10. Chapter and first he giveth vs a reason why the Church should haue this office committed to her in these words The Scripture for it selfe needs not the witnesse of men for it is most true in it selfe whether it be vnderstood or not but for our sake it needs the witnesse of the Church because otherwise we are not certaine what bookes are sacred and divine or what is the true and proper meaning Cap. 10. Respondeo Christus Hitherto wee finde these authors concurring with the Councell in the sense aforesaid and thereby our Assumption at num 7. is confirmed wherein we say Their Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath an office to determine which is the true faith that is what is revealed and what is not revealed and we must know that their judgement is not a private opinion but the faith of their Church Suarez saith so expresly in the place alledged and the thing it selfe doth say no lesse of them both for they agree with the Councell and all on their side agree with them none of theirs doe deny what they affirme If any man think not so he must shew the contrary which yet I never found Wherefore we need not doubt of the conclusion wherein we maintaine That their Church is the foundation of their faith being the thing we vndertooke to prooue num 7. Though this be enough to manifest the matter yet I will adde some other proofe from the testimony of their Church to iustifie the same conclusion because I would haue the thing made easie to our vnderstanding as well as proved to be true by force of argument Now Bellarmine doth all this in most plaine and evident manner in the place following The word of God delivered by the Prophets and Apostles is the first foundation of our faith for therefore we beleeve whatsoever we beleeue because God hath revealed it by his Prophets and Apostles but wee adde that besides this first foundation there is another secondary foundation needfull to wit the testimony of the Church for we know not certainly what God hath revealed but by the testimony of the Church Therefore our faith cleaveth to Christ the first truth revealing those mysteries as to the first foundation It cleaves also to Peter that is to the Pope propounding and expounding these mysteries as to a second foundation Cap. 10. Respondeo ad hoc If any man desire to see this precept manifested by practise he does that also after this sort Wee are to know that a Proposition or Article of faith is concluded in such a Syllogisme as this Whatsoever God hath revealed is true But this God hath revealed Therefore this is true Of the first of these Propositions no man makes any question The second is held for certaine truth amongst all Catholiks for it is grounded vpon the testrmony of the Church Cap. 10. Respondeo verbum To conclude I will report another testimony of his whereby the whole frame of this building is brought to perfection and for that end thus he writeth A precept of faith is to be prooued foure wayes 1. By expresse testimony of Scripture with a declaration of the Church 2. By euident deduction out of expresse Scripture with a declaration of the Church being added thereunto 3. Out of Gods word not written by the Apostles but deliuered from hand to hand 4. By eutdent deduction out of the word of God deliuered from hand to hand De Purga lib. 1. cap. 15. Haec sive Neither is this doctrine Bellarmines fancy but it is the Romish faith for it is warranted by the testimony of all the learned in that Church and the Decree of the Trent Councell already recited n. 8. for when it giues the Church the office to Iudge of the sense of the Scriptures it grants that the Scriptures are in being already and therefore that they are the revealers of the Sacred verities and consequently the first foundation of our faith When it subiecteth the sense onely of the Scriptures to the iudgement of the Church it giues the Church authority to propound expound and apply the Scriptures and therefore it makes the Church a second foundation and no more By this time I hope it is evident enough that the authority of the Church is the foundation that is the next and formall reason of their faith and beleeving and that is the thing wee seeke for Now we should prooue that this foundation of their Faith is false and erronious for that is the second thing propounded in this chapter num 7. But I will spare that labour at this time because none of ours as I conceiue will call it into question besides if any do Mr. Wotton in the book recited even now hath made it manifest against all opposers pag. 21. num 5. c. If therefore any man desires to see it I referre him thither because it fitteth not this businesse to transcribe it And thus much may suffice in proofe of our Assumption propounded cap. 3. num 1. CHAP. 5. Defendeth this sentence The Romish faith is erronius BOth our opponents are mightily gravelled with this sentence and all such as hold
should cease to be one In these words this sentence is implied The faith of the Church may be right and true false and erronious together viz. in different Articles And he does expressely avouch the same in divers passages of his booke viz. The present Church of Rome is corrupted and deformed yet hath the true essence of a Church pag. 30. The Church of Rome hath a religion more after Homer then after the Scriptures and yet holdeth fundamentall truth pag. 4. In the Popes Arithmetick Articles of faith are added pag. 39. Such affirmatiues of ours as concerne the foundation of Faith are professed by the Church of Rome pag 41. And nothing is more frequent with him then words to this effect The Church of Rome that is all those which lying in that religion make vp one body or societie is not Babylon in the Revelation but that Babylon is a faction in that Church pag. 100. The Papacy is not the Church but the disease of the Church The Papacy is in the Church as an accident in the subiect we must distinguish betwixt the Church and the Papacy pag. 28 29. Wee haue learned to distinguish betwixt the Church and the great Whore in the Church we haue communion with the Church wee seperate from Babylon pag. 101. This we deny and will maintaine the contradictory to wit The faith of the Church is not right and true false and erronious together viz. in different Articles But If some Articles of Faith be false and erronious then the Faith of the Church it false and erronious I will not now giue reason of this denyall but deferr the same till we come to the 7. Chap. where it shall be disputed so much as is requisite He brings proofe for his opinion in the words which immediately follow in the foresaid Cap. 3. n. 8. I will first dispose them according to Art and then frame my answer as shall be needfull Thus then he disputes If the Faith of the Church cannot be true and erronious together then where error in faith is there cannot be a true Church But where error in faith is there may bee a true Church for first our Church thinks so Article 19. according to Mr. Rogers in his Commentary vpon the place Propo. 8. 2 The children of Israell did abide many dayes without a Sacrifice and Ephod c. Hosea 3.4 and without Circumcision the space of 40. yeares Iosh 5.6 yet then were they the Church of God 3 The word and Sacraments may be corrupted as in the times of blindnesse and superstition or intermitted as in persecution I answer the consequence of the Proposition we grant as very necessary But the Assumption is false Wee say that errour in faith and the Church are incompatible and it is the Argument of our Church already alledged out of the Homily To all his proofes ioyntly I answere They are farr to weake to vphold this waighty matter if this assumption be not true then his whole cause falles to the ground Himselfe confesseth as wee haue heard that the present Romish Church is guiltie of heresy and therefore can be no true Church vnlesse error in faith may be in the Church For herefie at least comprehends error in faith Wherefore it stood him vpon to gather his witts and vnite his forces together to strengthen and mainteyne this businesse we looked for pregnant proofe out of Gods word for doubtlesse if this were true we should find a manifest record for it because God hath not left matters of this importance for man to grope and guesse at So loving and wise was the Lord when he appoynted the meanes of mans salvation But loe no such thing is tendred and therefore wee may conclude no such thing is in being and consequently wee may set downe our rest and say doubtlesse the faith of the true Church cannot be stained with error yet that the misery of this cause may the better appeare I will vncover the skirts of all his proofes in perticular and single out the one from the other The authority of our Church prevaileth much with me so as that alone would silence my tongue and suspend my iudgement but it will doe little good to this opponent B. for he that slighteth yea reiecteth nay disputeth against her doctrine in things supreame must not craue her ayde in things belonging to the mean and thus stands it with this opponent who mainteynes the cheife question in this businesse against her and at this instant laboureth all he can to refell the Proposition of her argument But how may it appeare that our Church makes for him He brings nothing but the authority of Mr. Rogers and that is no greater then his owne and consequently thus he sayes our Church thought so because I say she did thinke so but what if our Church and this opponent sayes shee thought not so then I hope the matter thus farr will be at an end From this Opponent I argue thus He that saith all Gods revealed truth vniuersally essentially and reciprically belongs to the Church frees the faith of the Church from error But this opponent doth so for thus he writes pag 13. The true Church is a company of men professing Gods revealed truth now in this sentence he makes all Gods revealed truth to belong to the Church vniuersally essentially and reciprically because 1. The words themselues in the common vse of men doe lye so 2. According to Aristotle Poster lib. 1. cap 44 33. lib. 2. cap. 3. Top. lib. 6. cap 1. Thom. 2. dist 27. q. 1. art 2. ad 9m. Aliaco quest de resumpt lit q Richardus de Trin. lib. 4. cap. 21. fol. 108. Every exact or perfite definition does so but this Authors sentence alledged is an exact definition pag. 13. Therefore this opponent frees the faith of the Church from error and consequently according to him our Church doth so too for shee hath defined the Church art 19. iust as he hath done in the sentence we alledged If art 19. subiecteth the faith of the Church vnto error then wee must reade it thus The visible Church is a Congregation in which some part of the pure word of God is preached and the Sacraments in some things be only administred But art 19. must not be so read least the words of the Article themselues be perverted and some man say the avoiding of diversities of opinions and establishing of consent touching true religion was not thereby intended contrary vnto the protestation of our Church in the title to all the Articles in generall Therefore Art 19. subiecteth not the faith of the Church vnto errour His second proofe lyeth thus The Israelites wanted Sacrifice and Circumcision Therefore the faith of the Church is subiect to errour I answere this geere hangs not together so well as Harp and Harrow for they sound alike in something because both of them begin with a letter but here is nothing like The lewes Church was an Infant and not established
only in some Articles yet the whole stand infected therewith because the foundation of faith which is the soule thereof runs through the whole as one continued streame without intermission distinction or limitation by reason whereof if some Articles onely be charged with errour the foundation of faith cannot be free if that be infected the whole faith is subiect thereunto because every Article or Proposition becomes an Article of faith by the force and efficacy of that foundation I conceiue by this time that the Proposition of this Argument is sufficiently prooved and explained so as every man will beleeue and vnderstand it and accordingly I may content my selfe and saue all further labour yet because the Reader shall haue full and ample satisfaction I will proceed somewhat further All ours doe grant the Assumption namely that some Articles of the Romish faith be erronious and amongst the rest both our Opponents are lavish enough in words of that kinde calling that Church so farre as their faith is erronious Babell and hereticall so as in rigour I am not bound to answere further yet because our Opponent B. hath done it samely and falsely pag. 40.90.124 c. to the shame of his owne reading and the sorrow and shame of our whole Nation if I may speake in his partners language pag. 22. To mend the matter and for the Readers sake I will proceed and shew that some Articles of their faith be erronious by assigning the particulars which are so faulty that it may be knowne we doe them no wrong when we charge them in that manner besides this every lover of truth may the better be directed to sever truth from falshood for that purpose I frame this Argument All the succeeding Articles are erronious viz. 1 The saving truth taught by Christ and his Apostles is conteined also in vnwritten Traditions Councell Trent Sess 4. 2 Originall sinne is an vneleannesse within mans soule and is a sin which is the death of the soule Sess 5. Decret 2. 3. 3 Grace doth take away whatsoever hath the true and proper nature of sinne Sess 5. Decret 5. 4 Concupiscence in the regenerate is not truly and properly sinne Sess 5. Decret 5. 5 Hee that receiveth the inspiration of grace can actually reiect the same and actually dissent therefrom if he will Sess 6. Cap. 5. Can. 4. 6 The onely formall cause of Iustification is Iustice inherent Sess 6. Cap. 7. 7 Sinne is mortall and veniall Cap. 11. 14. 8 The iust in some actions doe not sinne venially Cap. 11. 9 By every mortall sin a man falleth away from the grace of Iustification which he had receiued cap. 14.15 10 Gods Commandements are not impossible to bee kept by him that is iustified Sess 6. Cap. 11. 11 The grace of iustification is bestowed vpon them also which are not preaestinate Sess 6. Can 17. 12 The whole temporall punishment is not alwayes remitted together with the fault Sess 6. Cap. 14. and Can. 30 Sess 14. Cap. 8. Can. 12. 13 The works which be done in God doe for the state of this life fully satisfie the Law Sess 6. Cap. 16. 14 The iust in some actions sinne not at all and in no action doe they deserue eternall punishment Sess 6. Cap. 11. 15 The good works of the iust are their merits Sess 6. Cap. 16. Can. 32. 16 The Iustified by their good works do truely merit the obtayning of eternall life it selfe Sess 6. Can. 32. 17 It is no sinne to worke in the intuition of the reward Sess 6. Cap. 11. Can. 31. 18 The Images of Christ the Virgine Mary and other Saints 1. Are to be had and kept cheifely in Churches 2. Due honour and worship is to be giuen vnto them 3. Are of Sacred vse and yeeld much fruit Sess 25 Decret de invocat 19 The honour which we yeeld vnto Images is referred vnto the thing which they represent whose likenes they beare Sess 25. 20 Worship and honour is due to be giuen to the bodyes of Saints departed 21 The Monuments and memories of the Saints departed are to be frequented and honoured Sess 25. 22 Feast dayes are to be kept in honour and celebration of the Saints and for visiting their Reliques 23 By visiting the Reliques of Saints we obtayne their help Sess 25. 24 Prayers are to be made for the faithfull departed 25 The Saints that raigne with Christ and enioy eternall felicity in heaven 1 are to be called vpon 2 they pray for vs even singular men 3 It is profitable for vs to fly to their prayers help and furtherance for benifites to be receiued from God Sess 25. 26 There is a Purgatorie Sess 25. 27 Some temporall punishment remayneth to be satisfied for in purgatory before the way to heauen can bee opened Sess 6. Can. 30 28 The power of granting Indulgences was committed by Christ to the Church and the vse of them is helpfull to Christian people Sess 25. Decret de Indul. 29 The whole choise of meates serueth vnto the mortification of the flesh 30 The deuout celebration of feast dayes causeth the increase of piety Sess 25. Decret de delectu 31 The Sacrifice of the Mass prayers almes giuing are suffrages of the faithfull that are aliue for other faithfull that are dead Sess 25. Decret de Purga 32 The Sacraments of the new Testament are neither more nor fewer then seven to wit 1 Baptisme 2 Confirmation 3 The Lords Supper 4 Pennance 5 Extreame Vnction 6 Ordination 7 Matrimony And every one of these is truely and properly a Sacrament Sess 7 Can. 1. 33 The Sacraments of the New Testament contayne the things they signifi and beslow it vpon them which hindreth not Can 6. And vpon all as much as is requyred on Gods part Ca 7. And that by the worke wrought Can 8. Baptisme Confirmation and Ordination imprint in the soule a character that cannot be blotted out Can 9 34 After the Consecration of the bread and wine in the Lords Supper the Lord Iesus Christ true God and Man is contained truely really and substantially vnder the shewes of those sensible things Sess 13. de Sacra Eucha Cap 1. Can 1. 35 By the consecration of the bread and wine a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of Christs body and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood so as in that Sacrament the substance of bread and wine remaynes not together with the body and blood of Christ Which conversion is properly called transubstantiation Cap 4. Can 2. 36 In the Masse a true and proper Sacrifice is offered vnto God Propitiatory and profitable vnto others also besids such as receiue it and it ought to bee offred for the quick and dead for satisfaction of the punishment of sinnes and other necessities Sess 22. Can. 3. 37 The holy Eucharist is to be reserved in the Chancell and carried honorably to the sicke Sess 13. Cap. 6. To be
onely it is meet that we obserue in his Epistle Dedicatory that he maketh the point now in hand one of those whereat he trembles when he does but heare it If there be any cause why it will shew it selfe by his arguments and answeres for it if he be naked in them we may conclude that he feares without a cause and runnes when none pursues Enough hath bin said already to driue this conclusion to the head we haue proved that the Romish faith is erronious by arguments that are not nor can be refelled and who would require more to argue her faith to be vnable and altogether vnfit to lead a man to heaven Can an erronious faith shew a man the way to heaven Surely it can not because it sits beside the divine Revelation which is the onely record wherein the way to life is referved for vs. I say heaven and eternall happinesse is only to be found in Gods Revelation and who will not beleiue me for where the end is aboue nature the meanes thereto must needes be so also What need I then to trouble my selfe and the Reader with more arguments But seeing it will not saue our labour some are so contentious and will not rest in truthes apparent therefore such must be met withall and their endeavours prevented as the frugall man weedes his feild that his grayne may be the better vnto sight and service CHAP. 9. Our Opponent B. his first Argument WEe are now come to the second part of this Discourse wherein the Arguments for the contrary party are propounded and refuted and I will begin with our Opponent B. who brings his first Argument pag. 31. to this effect The seat of Antichaist is the true Church for hee sitts in Gods Temple 2 Thess 2.4 But the present Romish Church is the seate of Antichrist Therefore the present Romish Church is the true Church The Proposition of this Argument is set forth pag 36. The conclusion is implyed in the title of Chap 8 pag 31 The assumption is wanting I answere he is confident that no man can deny the Proposition pag. 38. but sayes nothing of the Assumption and no maruaile for that beggs the question by presuming that the Pope is Antichrist a point to many more doubtfull then the present conclusion But that fault though it spoiles all for this time shall goe for nothing The Proposition is not onely false but it is impossible to be true for the seat of Antichrist is a certaine space or place that receiveth the person of Antichrist and where he governes Reuel 16.19.17.9.18 â—0 The true Church is a society of men professing the revealed truth If then this profession be that place or necessarily flowes from the internall being thereof which is impossible then his Proposition may be true The Assumption hath the same fault the Romish Church is a society professing their religion now it is not possible for the person of Antichrist to be contained in the profession of religion as in a space or place To conclude if we put this Syllogisme into its true and naturall termes these will be the words thereof The space containing the person of Antichrist is that society of men which professeth the revealed verities But that society which professeth the Romish religion is the space containing Antichrist Therefore that society which profess eth the Romish religion is that society which professeth the revealed verities But every child that knowes chalke from cheese will laugh at this therefore it shall passe as ridiculous He does imagine that we will say in answere to this Argument that Antichristianity cannot argue the Church to be Christian being the bane and plaine overthrow of Christianity Pag. 36. I answer we doe not thus answer to this Argument neither need we vnlesse our answer should be as fond as his proofe and experience will now iustifie the same we haue answered otherwayes and yet his reason is refelled Keep your kindnesse for your friend and answer for vs when wee need it wee know Sophocles said true The guift of an enemy is no guift In the rest of this 8. chapter he hunts the wild goose chase but all his long discourse and many words amounteth in the totall vnto thus much The Iewes Church in their worst estate was the true Church of God Some of Gods people are in Babylon Therefore many heretofore and some at this day being outwardly of the Church of Rome wee may iustly notwithstanding challenge to our selves The Opponent C. shall answer him pag. 3. Prooue and apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue two new paire of Sizors A recompence too great for such a workeman yet let me tell you the Iewes Church at no time was equall or stood in the same termes or condition with the present Romish Church for they alwayes retained the true and vndoubted foundation of faith they relied onely vpon Gods authority the revealer of sacred things so as what ever they believed they so believed because God revealed it they thrust not in the authority of man between the sacred revelation and their faith and credence so as still they enioyed at least the meanes for getting of divine faith and consequently salvation it selfe but so it is not with the Romish Church as manifestly appeareth in former passages cap. 4. num 7. c. whereupon we may conclude Though the Iewish Church was the true Church of God yet that will not inferre the Romish Church to be so also Moreover the Iewes defection was in matter of practise rather then of precept when they failed in doctrine it was peculiar to some not vniversall and common to all that Church their errour was matter of opinion not of faith for no publick authority of theirs did command that opinion or misbeliefe to bee vniversally received as being divinely revealed But with the Church of Rome the matter is altogether otherwise Their errour is first in precept and then in practise this errour is common to all in that Church no man can be exempted therefrom vnlesse he will professe himselfe to be none of theirs Againe that errour of the Romish Church is adiudged to be revealed by God and commaunded to be received by all the members of that Church by an authority that pretendeth freedome from erring and power of enioying so as whatsoever is so commanded must be obeyed without delay or inquiring as is shewed cap. 4. num 7. c. wherefore we need not doubt to say the one lost not the truth of a Church the other hath not the truth of a Church We may allow God a share in some that dwell in Babylon but what is that share Even persons elected but not yet called and vnto such God commandeth that they Come out of Babylon and they shall heare and obey in their appointed time But what is this to vs Elected persons not called are such members of the Church as are vnknowne to vs and therefore are reckoned to appertaine to the Church invisible but
out question is of the Church visible More then so God may require vs to come out of Babylon even vs that are not there for such a commaund is no more but to prevent our going thither forasmuch as the same person that is furthest from Babylon in this present estate is there even there already in possibility because the holiest man that liveth liveth in the flesh or humane nature and therfore may he be carried to Babylon because Babylon is heresie or at least includes it and herefie is a fruit of the flesh By this time I hope his whole discourse as well â—hat is to the purpose as what is beside the purpose is fully cleered and satisfied wherein â—hine departed from the liberty of an answerer of loue and desire to satisfie the Reader CHAP. 10. Our Opponent B. his second Argument HE vrgeth vs cap. 9. pag. 37. with a second Argument concluding after this manner That Society which wanteth the nature of a true Church denyes fundamentall truth directly not by consequence But the present Romish Church does not deny fundamentall truth directly but by consequence at the most for the Popes Arithmetick which he vseth in calculating the Articles of faith is not subrstaction but addition Therefore the present Romish Church wanteth not the nature of a true Church The Assumption and conclusion is set downe pag 41. and the title of the Chapter pag 37. The Proposition is wanting In pag. 21 22. he writeth thus Our adversaries in this cause doe bring the deniall of the foundation of faith as a medium to proue the Church of Rome to be no true Church I answere this man hath a faire gift of inventing some while he can finde an adversary that answers another while one that disputes and all is no more but his owne shadow or imagination If he would haue the Reader to thinke otherwise let him name the Authour that thus disputes and the place where we may finde it till then this must goe for false None of ours would dispute so for it presumes that some Articles of faith be fundamentall and some be not and that is false the whole divine revelation conduceth to eternall life and accordingly it is the foundation thereof and consoquently every Article of faith is fundamentall I answere further This reason as it lyeth doth admit many egregious exceptions but because I am willing to interpret him with the vttermost favour I will forbeare to charge him with them He confines fundamentall trueth vnto the being of the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners pag. 19. 20. To deny fundamentall trueth according to him directly is directly to deny that Iesus Christ came into the world to saue sinners as Pagans Turkes and Iewes doe pag. 22. They deny it by consequent which holding it directly maintaine any one assertion whatsoever whereupon the direct deniall thereof may be necessarily concluded Thus the Galatians holding Circumcision did by consequence overthrow salvation by Christ inasmuch as it was impossible that they should stand together pag. 23 24. According vnto this explication this Argument will be freest from exception if it bee framed in these termes CHAP. 11. Of the same Argument new framed THat society which wants the nature of a true Church does in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners But the present Romish Church does not in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners Therefore the present Romish Church wants not the nature of a true Church His proofes for this Assumption are two the one pag. 126. in these words Offer the fundamentall words to them of the Romish Church and none amongst them will refuse to subscribe vnto them The other is his fifth Argument pag. 59. c To proue the maine question so desirous he is to make shewes of plenty that one shall be divided into two rather then he will be short in number In that he writeth thus In our disputations with them we doe not proue that Christ came to saue sinners but we bring it in proofe against them pag. 62. And this sayes he is A tacite consent of all ours that the Church of Rome does not directly deny the foundation pag. 61. In pag 70. he writeth thus I would gladly see the testimony of but one in estimation for his learning amongst vs that ever affirmed the Church of Rome to deny the foundation of Faith directly The Church of England hath not passed any such sentence vpon her Some of ours touching this matter haue written thus The Church of Rome denyeth Christ Iesus directly not by consequence onely At this our Opponent B. pag. 122. growes very angry and craues pardon for breaking his long patience and doth challenge him for an egregious contradiction in avouching a deniall direct and by consequence and why Because The foundation cannot be overthrowne both by consequence and directly too None can overthrow by consequence vnlesse they hold directly and no man can both hold directly and deny directly And in conclusion he does grauely reprehend that Author because he labour to proue that the Church of Rome is guilty of such deniall both directly and by consequence seeing such proofe makes the whole fall to the ground being nothing worth and least something should be wanting pertaining to the honour of a learned Disputer he giues his word for all this esteeming the least proofe his great disgrace I answere If I proue that the Church of Rome directly denies the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners I doe enough to satisfie this Argument even by the confession of this Opponent for pag. 124. he writes thus If you can proue the Church of Rome directly to deny salvation by Christ alone we binde our selves to grant you the victory and yours be the day If I proue the Church of Rome by consequence also so to deny then that Authour hath made no contradiction by this Opponents owne rule namely because both of them may be true together This Opponent demandeth how or where that proofe shall be had and made pag. 124. I answere I will haue that proofe out of the Councel of Trent and frame it according to art and the rules of answering for that is my office at this time Touching the first I answere to deny and affirme is made by voice and accordingly to deny and affirme may be by the voice of humane reason or divine faith This I take as granted else there can be no difference between the Heathen Philosophers Turks and Christians when they all professe even in so many words That there is a God In the first sense I grant the Assumption that is The Romish Church professeth even in so many words the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ by the voice of humane reason and so farre we are content to goe along with this Opponent but the Proposition is false This we say The profession of
MASCHIL VNMASKED JN A TREATISE DEFENDING this sentence of our Church Vidz The present Romish Church hath not the nature of the true Church Against the publick opposition of Mr. Cholmley and Mr. Butterfield two children revolted in opinion from their owne subscription and the faith of their Mother the Church of ENGLAND BY THOMAS SPENCER Who is this that darkeneth Counsell by words without knowledge Iob. 38.2 My wrath is kindled against thee and thy two friends for you haue not spoken of mee the thing that is right Iob. 42.7 LONDON Printed by WILLIAM IONES dwelling in Red-crosse-streete TO THE COMMONS HOVSE OF PARLIAMENT Most graue and honourable Senate WHen children are pressed with the want of good or feare of ill they resort vnto their Parents This is our present case The sute which wee present vnto your graue iudgements and Paternall care is no lesse then a matter of Religion and State For so it is that two revolted children of this our English Church and Common-wealth are risen vp in hostile manner against their Mother She hath decreed even in so many words that The Romish Church is so farre wide from the nature of the true Church as nothing can be more They vndertake to maintaine that The present Romish Church hath the true and formall essence of a Church This then is our request that your Wisedomes will be pleased to take this deed of theirs into your fatherly consideration and to procure such redresse therein as standeth with your place and power Herein wee doubt not to be heard because according to the law of God and instinct of nature Fathers lay vp for their Children and most willingly expend their store vpon them when need requires Our confidence herein is the more increased by two reasons to wit Our perpetuall experience of your willing ready providence for this our Church Common-wealth the greatnesse of the matter wherein we are your humble Petitioners If our Church had said nothing or spake doubtfully of the point then we had not put it to their account as a fault because in all ages and in the present Romish Church such Divinity disputations haue beene and are allowed And there is good reason for it for thereby the trueth in all doubtfull things at last hath beene cleerd and hath had the victory in the end and for this very cause the present Romish Church doth voluntarily of choise giue leaue to their schooles to dispute the points of the concurrence of actuall grace and mans will in every supernaturall action And of the kinde of worship to be given to the Images of Christ the Virgin Mary and the Saints because it now appeares that the words of the Trent Councell touching them both are doubtfull and ambiguous But this is not our case our Church hath delivered her Judgement in a single Proposition consisting of termes wherein there can be no doubt or question and the attribution is vniuersall and without limitation so as no reasonable man can make a question of her meaning Now beholde she hath not rested content with this which indeede is enough but to prevent the ignorant obstinacy of all Opponents she hath declared by a comparison of equallity the extent and amplitude of her predication and saith The Church of Rome is so farre wide from the nature of the true Church as nothing can be more Whereby we vnderstand that shee conceiues the present Romish Church to bee wholly destitute of every the least jot or tittle of the nature and essence of the true Church for so it is with every Society which is so farre wide from the nature of the true Church as nothing can bee more Now what title shall we giue to this deed vnder what head shall hee ranke this offence what punishment or degree of punishment doe they deserue Surely it is not within the power of my vnderstanding nor in the nature of my place and condition finally to determine vnto you and to your most deepe and profound Iudgement must I appeale for that Yet I humbly craue leaue to shew my opinion lest I seeme causlesly to complaine The deed of these men can deserue no lesse then to be branded with the name of contention for from a roote of bitternesse and the spirit of contention it did originally grow and arise J say it sprang from hence because the tree and all the branches thereof savours of such a root and cannot be conceiv'd to grow from other soile Contention it is and nothing else because it opposeth things ordeined and setled solemnly and with great authority and so continued for many yeares together no man daring publickly and professedly to say against it But which is most of all subscribed it is as the faith of our Church by these very Opponents Yea a high degree of contention it must be accounted because the minde from whence it did flow seemes altogether vnquiet and restlesse Who would not content himselfe with that faith that is thus established I say thus because the parties that collected it vsed all possible diligence and faithfulnesse they were learned and of exceeding gravity and staydnesse all ages with vs haue agreed vnto their iudgements yea even these Opponents haue had their share in it and not in words onely that passe away but vnder their owne hand writing that remaines for ever Can the gainsaying of things thus adorned and commended to these Opponents proceed from any ground but the spirit that can finde no place to rest in Surely no and J presume that every advised man will say so with me These Opponents doe tell vs and we must say so too if wee will beleeue them that It is charity towards the Romish Church that hatched this deed but we must not trust them the father and the childe are so vnlike What does charity bid them hate their friend Loues he indeed that pulleth out his Mothers heart to giue life to her vowed foe These Opponents may say so because this their deed sorts with it but he that hath his eyes in his head will reckon them amongst that number who casteth about firebrands and deadly things and saith I am in jest Prov. 26.19 Jf then their charity was vnfeigned they would loue their Mother first and others after and in relation vnto her seeing then these Opponents doe not so but the contrary we must conclude not their charity but their contention formed this deed This deed can be no lesse a sinne against God and I thinke others will say so with me though I giue no other reason for it but the odious account which the Apostle makes of such as are contentious 1 Cor. 11.16 An offence it is against our State because the continuance in things well ordered is a fundamentall law in every Common-wealth So is it an offence hainous and grievous for he that severs and pulâ—s asunder the limbes of the body destroyes the person and he that doth so must be reckoned a maine and principall
deale not against our betters for to say the least we are in the roome and behalfe of our Church which wee dare preferre before all her Opponents for they haue subscribed vnto her and thereby they haue acknowledged and done homage vnto her Lordship and Dominion Wee quarrell the persons of men in enuy to their aduancement and honours because he that said thus now said so long and often before with the approbation of our whole Church representatiue and without blame of them that doo now accuse him But is this true our Opponents say so but their proofe is insusficient because in it selfe 't is vntrue and nought in the inference perhaps their party avouched thus much before and yet not seene or not regarded for who would suspect or misdoubt such a friend as he seemed and was accounted If we were glasiers or the sonnes of a glasier perhaps he might see our secret thoughts and intentions but because we are not we must not be laughed out nor aâ—sâ—ised because we oppose not vnto any mans honour and adnancement We cast a stone that hitteth our Mother If that be so if wee haue done it and still avow the deed let vs be laughed out or despised choose them whether but this is impossible wee cast no stones at all by our office we hold vp our Buckler to defend our Mother and to beare of such stones as are cast by others if any stone hits our Mother it is that which is cast at the Church of Rome for that is the thing in question If that stone hit our Mother these Opponents must laugh her out or dispise her for her labour for 't is shee that cast it we doe no more but iustifie her casting If these Opponents will laugh her out or dispise her let them do so to vs also for good reason the Mother Child should share alike stand or fall together We cause our Church to suffer because we father a strange and vntrue tenant vpon her Now we know we shall not be laughed out nor dispised for this because we say of her no more no not one word lesse or more then she hath said vnto vs. If thus to impose deserues laughter and dispite then to deny her to say what indeed she hath said deserues laughter and dispite for the case is the same in both It that be so then our present Opponents must be laughed out and dispised for they deny her to say what she hath said so much the more they deserve to bee laughed out and dispised because they deny the thing wherein sence it selfe even their owne eyes doth avow and cannot be deceived thus far touching the thing which concernes our selues They meane not to speake a word in behalfe of the impure Church of Rome but rather if it were not done already they would vncouer her nakednesse and abhomination And we are content to admit their pretence because such deepe protestations and serious cravings goes with it but notwithstanding they gaine nothing for two reasons 1. because their deed cries loud and inforceth strongly to bring vs backe againe to Rome I say to Rome even vnto that Rome which they call impure for if they haue writen truly no man can deny to enter commons with them even in those things which these Opponents call impure because from them we may argue thus the Romish Church can yeild salvation to her members therfore it is the safest way to ioyn to her seeing all sides agree in the Antecedent but vnsafe it is to ioyn with other Churches for 't is doubtfull and in question whether salvation can there be had or no and thus some of that Church haue reasoned against vs if any say with vs is perfection and puritie of doctrine with them is heresie and defection he saith Nothing sufficient to keepe vs from Rome because if there were any power herein for that end it is because their heresie and defection in the event is able to hinder salvation but the Romish heresie and defection according to these Opponents is not able in the event to hinder salvation because with them The foundation is held which hath the property of that wine which will not mingle with poyson though a great quantity thereof be put vnto it yea such an Antidote it is and a thing so soveraigne that it will destroy much poyson and at last quite overcome it If all this be true who would not be a Papist seeing with them we finde enough to persuade vs for who would not yeeld to tread the way to heaven and nothing to disswade vs for no wise man will be afraid of the thing that cannot hurt him and this is the case betweene the Romish Church and vs if these Opponents may be believed if they say They did not perceiue the issue of their doctrine then must we blame them as heedlesse and inconsiderate what will they be our Iustructers Shall their I reatises serue to giue vs Instruction Shall Cato be compelled to come in and see and censure and yet such fowle and grosse faults bee committed Moreover if salvation may be had in the Romish Church and their heresies cannot hinder it then doubtlesse there is absoIntely nothing sufficient to bar vs their communion seeing they doe as strongly avouch their doctrine to be pure as these Opponents doe condemne it as impure In this case what shall most men living doe if they be seduced to Popery If a Priest should say with vs thou maist goe to heaven as your owne side confesse with vs is nothing to presse thee downe to hell for though we were as bad as you make vs yet by the confession of yours we haue an Antidote that in the event will preserue thee from the evill and reserue thee for the good Lastly it can not appeare that we are blamed iustly for how much you say against vs so much if not more we can say for vs we haue the Records of all ages for vs Councels Fathers history are strongly on our side we haue alledged them and you cannot gainsay vs so as now either satisfie this last or yeeld to ioyne wich vs for your selues doe teach the two first and you may not deny them now in this case what can a reasonable man doe He sees nothing but doubtfull and difficult questions to keepe him from Popery and himselfe not able to determine those doubts I say who would not resolue thus I will ioyne with them not with you seeing I haue nothing to debarr me but some doubtfull questions that may be true and may not be true yet howsoever they cannot hurt me If these Opponents would haue vs belieue as they greatlydesire that they are enemies to Rome and friends to vs they must haue esteemed the Church of Rome to want the nature of that Church whereof Christ is the head for that makes all sure that barrs the doore and shutteth vp all entrance vnto her no man will be so mad to joyn
The second distribution is as fond if not worse then the first but I will not mispend mine owne and the Readers time about it It was meet for mee to let this opponent see his weaknesse in Logick because he vaunteth so much of his skill that waies in his Epistle and throughout his whole booke We should now come to the application of this answer to some part of our argument that we might know what he denies and what he grants and why but I am altogether to seeke for that because he brings nothing that leades vs thereunto Wherefore I come to himselfe and say in his owne words pag. 3. _____ Apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue a new paire of Sâ—zors When he hath done so he shall haue further answer and in the meane time I will set downe and examine what his partner B. saith to our argument now in hand therein I will take onely the summe of his answer and no more to saue mine owne labour and the Readers following the example of the schooles who alwayes run that course He beginneth his answer at p. 84. at these words We professe that we esteem c. And continues the same vnto pag. 88. As his partners answer was so is his intricate perplexed vnapplyed but with this difference he was briefer as liking Logick and not Rethorick this larger as loving Rethorick and not Logick nothing could be made of his Something as I conceiue may be made of this wherefore I will set downe that something with the best warrant of his owne discourse Thus then he seemes to answere The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles purely taught without mixture of error is the genuine marke of the true Church So as where that is there followes the appellation of a true Church and from thence we may argue thus Wheresoever Gods word is purely preached and the Sacraments duly administred there is a true Church And so farre the Proposition is true and agreeable to the intent of our Church and the Assumption is so also that severeth the doctrine of Christ from the present Romish Church but then the conclusion importeth no more but that she is not an orthodox Church which is not in question The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught purely without mixture of errour is not so essentiall to the true Church that so soone as vnsound doctrine is mingled with the truth of Gods word and the Sacraments vnduely administred that which was a Church should cease to be one In this sense the Proposition is false for such doctrine belongs vnto the perfection and glory of the Church and she may be without them as the children of Israel were many dayes without a Sacrifice and an Ephod Hosea 3.4 yet still they were Gods Church It may fall out that they may be corrupted as in the times of blindnesse and superstition or intermitted as in persecution In this sense the PropositioÌ„ is not according to the intent of our Church which meant not so strictly to tye Gods Church to these signes as if all were excluded from the Church which doe not rightly participate of the word and Sacraments in the Iudgement of Mr. Rogers in his Commentary vpon 19. art propo 8. Lastly in this sense the Assumption is false that makes a reall totall division between the present Romish Church all revealed truth we say she hath not abolished all truth but retaineth some in their disputations and as we thinke more in their Sermons Thus I hope I haue exactly expressed his intent if I haue missed in any thing the fault is his not mine he may thanke me for my paines because I haue done for him what he could not at least what he hath not done for himselfe that I may vse his partners words pag. 5. Now we will take it into severall peeces and examine them in severall chapters following CHAP. 4. Prooving this sentence The present Romish faith is erronius THe examination of his last answer to our Assumption wherin he does attribute some purity of Christs doctrine vnto the Church of Rome is sufficient to determine the worth of our argument now in hand and the whole question it selfe for if the Romish Church be all errour and Antichristian that is if her faith be erronious then without doubt she is none of Gods Church The Church of England in her Assumption now in question meant to say so as I haue already said cap. 2. n. 1. and will now prooue by Gods assistance If the Romish Church retaine some of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour then 1. Christs doctrine cannot be denied her in termes without limitation 2. She is not changed into a new guise nor hath forsaken the commandements of God to set vp her owne constitutions 3. She is not without the holy Ghost But according to our Church 1. Christs doctrine is denied her in terms without limitation for thus lye the words of her Assumption The present Romish Church is not built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets retaining the sound and pure doctrine of Christ Iesu neither doe they order the Sacraments in such sort as he did first institute and ordaine them 2. She is changed into a new guise by chopping and changing by adding and plucking away They haue forsaken the commandements of God to set vp their owne constitutions 3. They are without the Spirit of God Therefore according to our Church in her Assumption the present Romish Church does not retaine some part of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour but she is all errour and her faith erronious Many learned amongst vs haue so vnderstood our Church and I will name some in stead of all Bishop Iewell in the defence of his Apology pag. 4. cap. 11. divis 1. chargeth her in absolute termes that she had departed from Gods ward and more plainly pag. 5. cap. 13. divis He saith the same thing in these words Thâ—se men haue brâ—ken in pecces all the popes and conduits they haue stopped all the springs and choaked vp the fountaine of living water with dirt and myre He repeates the same thing in other termes cap. 15. divis 2. thus In the Romish Church we cannot home the word of God sinetrely taught nor the Sacraments rightly administred nor the name of God duely called vpon and wherein was nothing able to stay any wise man or one that hath consideration of his own safety I will conclude with his words in the same Apologie part 6. cap. 22. divis 2. where he saith that the present Church of Rome hath vtterly forsaken the Catholike faith Doct. Reynolds in his 5. Conclusions Preface at the 6. doth charge the present Romish Church to be distempered not with a sicknesse that hindreth the functions of life but with such a one as for it selfe makes her past hope of recouery and namely she serues not God with a holy worship nor beleeved God with a holy faith as he hath commanded
but stained the faith of Christ with reproaches creatures with the Lords honour Gods service with Idolatry Doct. Whitakers in his second controversie of the Church q. 6. cap. 1. adiudgeth the present Romish Church to be nothing else but a deepe pit of heresie and errour and thereby argueth her no wayes to be or to belong vnto the true Church Mr. Perkins in the Preface to his Reformed Catholike saith The whole Religion of the present Romish Church is hereticall and schismaticall and the cup of abomination in the Whores hand Revel 17.4 And Doctor Abbot Bishop of Salisbury in his defence of this place in Mr. Perkins doth iustifie and avow the same thing against bishop the Papist Bishop Careton in his directions to know the true Church prooues at large that the present Romish Church holas not vnitie with the true Church neither in the head nor in the body nor in the spirit nor in the faith If that be true she is all errour her faith is erronious Now I haue proved our Assumption against his exception thereto by the authority of our Church and a cloud of her most learned and renowned children I will make the same good by the testimony of God himselfe But I am prevented in that by Mr. Wotton who hath done it already in his booke called Runne from Rome where he beginnes this poynt pag 14. num 4. whereunto I might refer the Reader as vnto a most pious learned author a worke that admitteth not any reall essentiall or substantiall addition but I will make bold to take out of him so much as belongs to this cause not word for word but so much as will be sutable to the buisinesse First I will set downe how he vnfoldeth the terme and then come to his proofes of the question The word Faith importeth a singular thing vndevided into either members or kindes with warrant from the Apostle who speakes so of it Eph. 4.5 There is one faith saith he one Baptisme one Mediator between God and man 1 Tim. 2.5 In what manner the Mediator is one and Baptisme is one so Faith is once for one phrase of speech is common to them all but they are one without division into members or kinds therefore so is faith The thing it selfe sayes no lesse for this word Faith importeth a coÌ„prehension of many sentences made one body by a common band namely the divine authority For in every article a part and in all of them together we find the same authority which draweth vs to consent to them as true and accordingly the beleefe of one is the beleefe of all the deniall of one the deniall of all Every Engular sentence pronounced by the Church of Rome as a thing revealed by God is in this question the Romish faith An Article of faith is then erronious when it agrees not with the sacred Revelation and this wee say with warrant from the Councell of Trent Sess 14. cap 8. of the necessitie of Satisfaction And afterwards in the Decree touching the Sacrament of pennance Canon 6. And the thing it selfe doth avowe the same for the varying from the rule is the very nature of error therefore every article of faith must needs be erronious that agrees not with Gods word because that word is the rule thereof By it our faith was revealed vnto vs and by the recorde thereof it is reserved for vs. And so much for Mr. Wottons explication We haue his proofe pag 15. nu 6. thus set forth That faith which hath a faâ—se and erronious foundation is false and erronions But the foundation of the Romish saith is false and erronious Therefore the Romish faith is false and erronious In the Proposition two things are taken as granted viz. 1 Faith hath a foundation without it 2 Different foundations causeth different faithes Both of them are cleere and evident therefore they stand not in need of my proofe if the termes be opened they will be out of question By foundation wee meane the next and formall reason why we assent to this or that proposition in Divinity that is why we iudge this predicate to bee truly and rightly attributed to that subiect now this is without the Article it selfe because it is no more but the authority of him that pronounceth the sentence In the second sentence we meane to say Every distinct faith followes the next and formall reason of our beleeving as when wee beleeue this or that report to be true vpon the authority of him that reports it this is humane saith because it followes humane authority and accordingly the faith of Turks and Heathens is accompted humane because the next reason of their beleeving is mans authority accordingly that is Divine faith when we esteeme this or that sentence to be true because God hath pronounced it And thus haue we cleered the Proposition Mr. Wotton prooues the Assumption by these two sentences 1. The foundation of their faith is the authority of the Pastors of their Church No. 7. 2. This foundation of faith is false and erronious No. 10. And this proofe is manifest and without exception if both these sentences be true But they are true he prooues the first num 8. by this argument They that haue the office to determine what is the true faith that is what is revealed what is not revealed their authority is the foundation of faith But the Romish Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath that office Therefore the authority of their Church that is the Pastors of their Church is the foundation of their faith The Proposition needs no reliefe for that office of shewing what is revealed and what is not is the next and formall reason of their beleefe as by their doctrine and practise we shall see hereafter num 8. c. The Assumption needes our helpe as little for every man that is acquainted with their faith knowes that they giue their Church that office yet for further explication I will shew the same by the Councel of Trent Sess 4. praeterea c. saith It is the office of the Church to iudge of the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures By Church they vnderstand the Pastors of the Church and we know it by their practise and the Iudgement of their learned No man inioyeth a share in the voice of deciding Iudgement in any Councel but their Bishops who onely according to them are the Pastors of the Church By Iudging is meant an inforcing power compelling their sentence to be obeyed and received By sense of the Scriptures is vnderstood every Article or sentence of faith for an Article of faith is a sentence held according to the true sense of Gods word By Scriptures they vnderstand every particular sentence contained in the Scriptures for if they meant some places onely there could be no certainty in this decree because they doe not determine the particular places subiected to the Churches sentence and when they subiect the sense of
and afterwards sinne wilfully ver 26. by forsâ—king the Assembly of the faithfull vers 25. and therefore are certeinely subiected vnto Gods fiery devouring indignation and iudgment ver 27. But Iewes and Pagans deny salvation by Christ in the iudgement of this Opponent pag 22. Secondly if all that directly deny salvation by Christ are thus guiltie then this guiltines in the Apostles intent is the totall and adaequate nature of that denyall otherwise the Proposition conteineth not an vniversall truth But this guiltines in the Apostles intent is not the totall and adaequate nature of that denyall but 〈◊〉 denyall in one speciall kinde viz. Apostacy and wilfull backsliding for thus lyes the Apostles reason If wilfull forsakers of their profession and the society of the Saints shall certainly bee punished with Gods fiery devouring indignation and judgement then let vs hold fast the profession of our faith and the assembly of the Saints without wavering But such shall be so punished for their sinne deserues it inasmuch as thereby they tread vnder foote the Sonne of God c. The Proposition and Assumption is set forth from verse 23. to the end of verse 27. and the proofe of the Assumption verse 29. being the place which we haue now in hand whereupon we may conclude Some that directly deny salvation by Christ are not thus guilty and so his Proposition is false that maketh all such deniers to be so guilty and consequently our Mother the Church of England hath the day of victory and so shall hold it These Opponents are vnder the hatches and there we will keepe them This Opponent telleth vs pag. 123. that we shall not need to proue that The Romish Church denies salvation by Christ by consequence he will pardon vs that labour to the end that the Reader should see we confesse him to be a fair adversary I answere and why does he account this pardon a favour done vs seeing himselfe does confesse the thing it selfe so often does he thinke himselfe can doe what we cannot Surely then what differs he from the Bold Braggadochiaes in the Campe whereof wee reade in his partner Opponents Epistle It may be he will say he that makes that proofe must grant that they directly hold salvation by Christ which he does and we doe not I reply he is deceived we doe say they directly hold salvation by Christ according to the voice of humane faith as I haue answered chap. 11. num 5. therefore if any thing makes the difference between his power to proue and ours It is not his affirmation and our negation but he hath skill and we haue none well let him vaunt that hath the vayne To the present matter we say we despise his pardon we craue no favour let him doe his worst wee know whose faith we maintaine and will now proue CHAP. 13. The Romish Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ IN proofe of this sentence I will content my selfe with an Argument in this forme They that directly hold salvation by Christ and other things which cannot stand therewith they by consequence deny salvation by Christ because from the second the direct dentall of the first may be necessarily concluded But the Romish Church directly holds salvation by Christ and other things that cannot stand therewith Therefore the Romish Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ This Opponent may not deny any part of this Argument because the Proposition the proofe thereof is his owne pag 23. 24. so is the Assumption pag. 26. The conclusion is gathered out of them both who therefore on this mans behalfe can except against any part thereof It may be some man may say In all the former passages we haue charged the Romish Church with a direct deniall of salvation by Christ and in this argument we free that Church from such denyall and consequently we contradict our selues so as the proofe of the one doth equally overthrow the proofe of the other and thus our opponent seemes to argue as I haue reported Cap. 11. num 3. I answer this exception may be taken off with ease for we charge them and discharge them as is aforesaid indifferent respects we say they deny salvation by Christ according vnto or in respect of divine faith we grant them the contradictory according vnto or in respect of naturall reason or humaine faith as the Reader may finde cap. 11. num 5. In regard whereof both sentences and their proofes may equally stand together without domage the one to the other If any man thinkes otherwise he must shew it by the rules of Art else no man is bound to beleiue him I answer further this direct holding of salvation by Christ which wee grant vnto them is inducement foundation enough whervpon we may charge them with the denyall of the same thing by consequence For that holding is a reall confession and accordingly doth put the thing confessed in a being sufficient whereupon it may be denyed or avoyded by inference and therefore our Proposition is true that supposeth the same And thus our Argument is sufficiently fenced against the clawes of this Opponent and therefore here I must end the matter of their denyall of salvation by Christ by consequence for none of our Opponents brings more then thus touching the same Some man perhaps would accompt it a thing worth our labour if we rested not in these Opponents confession for the truth of our Assumption but avowed the same thing by the Records of the Romish faith To whom I answer that desire is not vnmeet nor the thing hard to to be done but the present businesse and my office must not be forgotten If I entred vpon that wee rush into another question I am now to answere but hee that does that must proue This Assumption is confessed by all parties therefore it is a principle and accordingly it may make an Argument in this question therfore it must passe as a thing certain Accordingly here we would rest but our present Opponent is not so contented for hee denyes that the Romish Church may be ranked with the old Hereticks because they goe not the same way to worke with them They saith he struck neerer the head then the Church of Rome does She indeed is wandred from God and her doctrine is iniurous and contumelious to God and our Redeemer It doth gainsay the foundation of our faith but yet it is remooued a great distance therefrom raze it it doth but by a circle of consequence at the most thus he writes pag 3. 18. 24. 25. 38. 41. 127. 128. Yet he does not varnish over their opinion nor help the best foote of a lame cause forward if you will beleiue his words pag 127. For this cause therefore I will prooue the Romish Church to deny salvation by Christ by consequence direct and immediate not by a circle or meanes that comes betweene that proofe and that salvation and then wee shall know whether that Church
the Reader iudge of our cause and the present Opponent CHAP. 14. They that deny salvation by Christ by consequence are not the true Church THe Argument propounded Chap. 11. num 1. presumes the contradictory to this position and this our present Opponent pag. 25. and 26. does expressely teach it in these words Whole Churches haue denied and yet doe deny by consequence that salvaton is by Christ yet we doe and must hold them Christian All this while we haue let that supposition passe vntouched as if it were true because the weaknesse of that proofe should be the more apparent but now and in all good time we say he supposeth falsely and therefore he is a begger no prover We proue against him with this Argument Vnto the true Church Christ may bee profitable Vnto such as deny by consequence that salvation is by Christ Christ cannot be profitable for vnto the Gallatians Christ could not be profitable Gallat 5.2 3 4. But all such as deny by consequence that salvation is by Christ are the Gallatians 5.2 3 4. I say they are the same with them not by name Nation singular persons or doctrine but in their deniall they are the same that is the one denies salvation by Christ by illation inference and consecution and so doe all other The Gallatians held something for true viz. Salvation is by the Law This being granted then must we deny that Salvation is by Christ So standeth it with all others that by consequence deny him to bring salvation Whereupon we may conclude All such as by consequence denie salvation by Christ Christ can profit them nothing and consequently such as deny by consequence that salvation is by Christ are not the true Church I conceiue in pag. 24. he meant at least he might with the matter there contained dispute with this Argument The Gallatians by consequence denied salvation by Christ Gallat 5.2 c. The Gallatians Gallat 5.2 c. were a true Church Therefore some true Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ I answere those Gallatians whereof we reade Gallat 5.2 3 4. by consequence denied salvation by Christ therefore the Proposition is true but that the Apostle writes there of the whole Church of Gallatia may not reasonably be affirmed nor can possibly be proved because no part of Gods word doth say so or leade vs to thinke so The Apostle in the 5. Chapter reproues the Gallatians for biting and devouring one another verse 15. and for vaine glory and envie verse 26. Now the parties thus reproved were particular persons not generally the whole Church for it is not likely that every singular man in Gallatia was so guilty if therfore singular persons were reproved here then there also for the same phrase and manner of reproofe is vsed both there and here If any man be desirous to haue vs vnderstand the Apostle of the whole Church of Gallatia vers 2 3 4. we may doe it without profit to this Argument For then I grant them of Gallatia were a true Church because the Apostle cap. 1. verse 2. terms them a Church and saluteth them with grace and peace from God and Christ verse 3. and does acknowledge them to haue received libertie and freeaome by Christ cap. 5. verse 1. We may continue that they ioyned Circumcision and the keeping of Moses Law vnto Christ in opinion not as matter of faith At that time they began to grow in liking with that conceit but they were not confirmed and setled in their iudgement that God had revealed it nor professed it to the world as such If they did so indeed then I may grant the whole reason without losse because the conclusion vrgeth not vs we willingly acknowledge that the true Church is subiect to errour in opinion in things very important vnto salvation we onely deny that erring in matter of faith can befall the true Church whilest it is so I say we may thus iudge of that Church vntill we see good reason for the contrary because charity thinketh not evill nor is suspitious Nay the Apostles phrase leadeth vs to thinke so for if that had beene a matter of faith with them hee would haue charged them with the fact as a thing perfectly done but he does not so yea rather the contrary for verse 1. he wills them to stand fast in their Christian libertie and verse 2. he puts the matter to an If saying If yee be circumcised c verse 7. he tells them yee did runne well and demands who it was that did let them c. and verse 10. and 12. he threatneth and intreateth for their punishment that did trouble them and finally verse 10. he shewes himselfe confident that they would shake off and forsake the present doctrine and continue in the same minde vnto which he had brought them and in which he had left them wherein it is very apparent he speakes of them as men wavering not as parties confirmed in their iudgement These things considered we may vndoubtedly resolue that the Church of Gallatia is no example wherein we finde that deniall of salvation by Christ by consequence which is the thing we seeke for and deny to the Church And thus much shall suffice in refutation of his great and important argument propounded cap. num CHAP. 15. Of the same Opponents third Argument HItherto we haue discussed all that he hath to say touching the Romish Churches acknowledgement and publike profession of the Scriptures and of salvation by Christ and haue insisted therein to the vttermost lest some should be deceiued by those glorious and beautifull titles In this place we must examine what good their Baptisme does them wherein we may say thus much aforehand If their profession of the Scriptures and salvation by Christ does not grace them but notwithstanding such profession they remaine still destitute of the nature of Christs Church then doubtlesse Baptisme cannot helpe them to it even in this Opponents iudgement for pag. 85. he delivers it for a ruled case that The Church of God may want Baptisme for a time and yet remaine a true Church But he will not say so of professing the Scriptures and salvation by Christ which we belieue and he affirmes is the soule of the Church From their Baptisme hee frameth this Argument That society which consisteth of persons Baptized that is the true Church But the Romish Church consisteth of persons Baptized Therefore the Romish Church is a true Church The Assumption and conclusion is plainly enough set forth in the title of chap. 10. pag. 42. and in pag. 45. The Proposition is wanting but all the rest of the Chapter containes no more but a proofe thereof I answere The Sacraments duely administred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same is of the internall and formall being of the Church I willingly grant with our Church of England which giues the Sacraments in this sense a place in the