Revelation the Church which is but the bare Interpreter No Sir reply'd I I equal not the Church to St. Paul but I say that to pretend one ought to be Believ'd without examining when one thinks to act only as an Instrument of which the Holy Ghost makes use is not to have Dominion over the Conscience as the Example of St. Paul demonstrates Besides I pretend not to equal the Churches Authority to the Apostolical The Apostles were Authors of the Revelation as you have very well said that is they first receiv'd the Truths which it pleas'd GOD to reveal The Church is only the Interpreter and Depositary But saving this essential Difference between the Apostles and the Church I say That the Church is as much inspir'd to Interpret as the Apostles were to Establish and that holding the Grace of Interpretation from the same Spirit which gave the first Revelation to the Apostles she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in Interpreting than the Apostles did in Establishing But that both the one and the other cause the Holy Ghost to have Dominion over them according to the Measure which is given to every one It must be prov'd said Mr. Claude that the Church has receiv'd a like Grace There 's no need of proving answer'd I immediately 't is sufficient to shew that the Passage you alledge is not concluding To this there was nothing said But if I remember well Mr. Claude exaggerated a little how strange it was that we would oblige Men to believe the Church like GOD himself upon her bare Word without making use for the Interpretation of Scripture of the Reason GOD has given us that those of Beraea did not so and that the Apostle according to our Opinion was much to blame for letting them examin his Preachings I answer'd That there was a very great Difference between the Faithful already Children of the Church and subjected to her Authority and those that still doubted whether they should enter into her Bosom That those of Beraea were in this last Condition and the Apostle would not by any means propose to 'em the Churches Authority of which they doubted But that the Faithful were not instructed in the same manner after the Councel of Jerusalem There the Apostles decided by Authority of the Holy Ghost Act. XV. v. 28. Act. XVI v. 4. It has seemed good say they to the Holy Ghost and to us What do Paul and Silas Carriers of the Councels Letter after this They went through the Cities as 't is in the Acts What to cause the Counceâ— of Jerusalem's Decree to be there examin'd 'T would have been to examin after the Holy Ghost himself What then They went through the Cities delivering them the Decrees for to keep that were ordained of the Apostles and Elders which were at Jerusalem See the Order The Examen in the Councel the Obedience without examining after the Decision the Examen in those of Beraea that is in those who not being in the Church have yet no Authority to regulate them Submission without examining in those who being already in the Church are only to hear her Decrees 'T is their Happiness to be in a Body which guided by the Holy Ghost can never be deceiv'd and by that means be deliver'd from the Danger of an Examen the end of which would perhaps be Error The Conference had already lasted four Hours I already had from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment one of the Propositions I would make him confess to wit That every particular Person ought to believe he may understand the Holy Scripture better than the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church He must yet own the other Proposition no less Important and see how GOD brought him to it As he had spoken much of this Dominion of the Church over Consciences repeating three or four times That we gave her the Respect which was due to none but GOD alone when we believ'd her without Examining I told him he need not make so strange of a thing which they did as well as we and upon that I askt him Whether a Believer at his first Receiving the Holy Scripture from the Church were oblig'd first to doubt and after to examin whether the Book she put into his Hand were truly inspir'd by GOD or no. If this Believer examins and doubts he renounces the Faith and begins the reading of the Gospel by an Act of Infidelity and if he doubts not he then receives without examining the Authority of the Church which presents him the Gospel To this see Mr. Claude's Answer The Believer you suppose who has not read the Holy Scripture and into whose Hands 't is put to speak properly doubts not he is ignorant He knows not what this Scripture is which he is told is inspir'd by GOD. He has heard his Father and those who instructed him say That 't was divinely inspir'd He yet knows no other Authority but theirs and as for what concerns the Scripture he knows not what it is Thus he cannot be said to be Unbelieving or Incredulous And pray Sir said he let me make you the same Argument upon the Church as you make me upon the Scripture The Believer to whom the Churches Authority is propos'd either believes it without examining or doubts If he doubts he is an Infidel If he doubts not by what Authority is he assur'd Is the Churches Authority a thing evident of it self and must be not find it by some Examen This is your Difficulty which you have to solve as well as I either let us quit 'em both or resolve 'em both together I declare to you that I will answer for the Scripture what you shall answer me for the Church I understand you answer'd I but before I explain to you how the Christian believes the Church let us first settle the Matter that is in question Is it not evident Sir amongst you as well as amongst us That when the Holy Scripture is shewn to Children educated in the Church 't is shewn them as a Book inspir'd by GOD and I ask whether they cannot when they are caus'd to read something in it make this Act of Faith I certainly believe that what I am going to read is GODs Word Mr. Claude answer'd here That those of whom I spake to him had yet no divine Faith concerning the Authority of the Scripture but a bare human Perswasion grounded on the Deference they had for their Parents and that they were but Catechumens Catechumens Sir said I. You must not if you please speak so They are Christians they are baptiz'd they have in them the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd they are in the Covenant according to you they have receiv'd Baptism as a Seal of the Covenant to which they are admitted and as the Covenant is seal'd in them by the exterior Seal of Baptism the Holy Ghost seals it interiorly in their Hearts Know your own Doctrin Upon this said Mr. Claude you know
however it is and without disputing any farther since this is no place for it we have shewn that 't is a Doctrin acknowledg'd in the new Reformation That every particular Person ought to examin after the Church and consequently ought to believe That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies Those that abhor this Presumption or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity have no more to do but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that in which so prodigious a Doctrin is profess'd The Third REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians and That the Churches infallible â—â—thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture THE second Absurdity I promis'd to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow is That unless there be acknowledg'd in the Church an Authority after which there must be no more examining nor doubting there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and in which consequently he must doubt whether it be true or false I assign'd for this Point of Doubt all the time in which a Christian for what cause soever has not read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition and I persist to say That he not only own'd it in the Conference but also that in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things he has not been able to do it so well but that he still confesses it in the Relation In truth this is one of the Places in which I least remember our exact Words But there is still enough to convince him since if this Relation becomes publick every one will see he here acknowledges in formal Terms That he who has not yet read the Holy Scripture believes it to be GODs Word with human Faith because his Father told him so which is the State of a Catechumen and when he has himself read this Book and felt the Efficacy of it he believes it to be GODs Word no longer with an human Faith because his Father told him so but with a divine Faith because he has himself immediatly felt its Divinity and this is the State of a Believer 'T is then true that he has acknowledg'd the Time I undertook to shew when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture since he believes it to be GODs Word only by an human Faith and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it In what manner soever he turns this human Faith 't is an horrible thing that a Baptiz'd Christian at the Age of Reason cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith by which we are Christians For thence it follows That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture ought neither to be inclin'd of himself or induc'd by any other to say at opening it I believe as I believe that GOD is that the Scripture I am going to read is his Word On the contrary they must make him say I am going to examin whether henceforth during the rest of my life I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith 'T is to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction 't is to lose the Fruit of Baptism 't is to reduce Baptiz'd Christians to instruct their Children as if they were not so and that they were yet to deliberate of what Religion they should be And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity on that of the Incarnation on that of JESVS CHRISTs Mission and the Redemption of Mankind For that which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say That the Believer who has not read the holy Scripture can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspir'd by GOD is That otherwise they must acknowledg an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority Which would be to own this Authority as infallible and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESVS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church and before he has read the holy Scripture I shall always conclude with equal Certainty That the Churches Authority will be infallible By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle we must in reducing the Christians who go to read the holy Scripture to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief This was not the Method of our Forefathers they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children When they baptiz'd them in their Infancy they said in that young Age Credo I believe No matter thô our Reformers have chang'd this Form 't was us'd in the very first Ages and will be always holy and venerable maugre all they can do But this Form us'd towards Children shews us that when they shall have the use of Reason they must be immediatly taught to make an Act of Faith and time must not be lost in exciting them to it They will then be capable of it they may say the same Creed they should have said if they had been baptiz'd at the Age of Understanding and to reduce them to a Faith barely human is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism and justify the Practice as well as the Doctrin of the Anabaptists And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe that I alledge here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration or to render them odious these manners are not beseeming Christians I am ready to make good that the Doctrin taught here by Mr. Claude and which all Protestants must teach with him introduces Anabaptism For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense till such time as one has read the holy Scripture and be instructed by himself if all the Acts that precede this Instruction are not Acts of Christians since they have for their foundation only an human Faith for the same reason Bapâ—â—â— must be deferr'd till that time and we must not make Christians that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion The Fourth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture 'T IS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us That he will make us the same Argument for the Church as we make him for the Scripture for to do this as we shew him a point of time which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes
the Reading of the Scripture he must also be able to shew us one that precedes the Churches Instructions but this he will never find Whatever he does we shall always mark him a a Point of time before the reading of the Scripture which is that when the Church puts it into our hand but before the Church there is nothing she prevents all our Doubts by her Instructions 'T is an Error to imagin that we must always examin before we believe The Happiness of those who are born as I may say in the Bosom of the true Church is That GOD has given her such an Authority that we believe at first what she proposes and that Faith precedes or rather excludes Examination To ask now by what Motives GOD makes us sensible of his Churches Authority is to depart visibly from the Question He wants not Motives to fasten his Children to his Church to which he has given so particular and so resplendent Characters This very thing that of all the Societies in the world she is the sole to whom none can shew her beginning or any interruption of her visible and exterior State by any averr'd Fact whilst she shews all other Societies that environ her theirs by Facts which themselves cannot deny this very thing is a sensible Character that gives an inviolable Authority to the true Church GOD wants not Motives to make his Children perceive this so particular Character of his Church But whatever these Motives are not to forestall them here this being no place for it 't is certain that there are some since that in fine we must be able to believe on the Churches word before we have read the holy Scripture and that in the first Instruction we receive without speaking of the Scripture we are taught to say as a fundamental Act of our Faith I believe the Catholick Church Mr. Claude tells us that to authorize the Method by which we pretend to lay the Churches Faith as the Foundation of all the rest the Creed should have begun with saying I believe the Church whereas it is begun with saying I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost And he considers not that 't is the Church her self which teaches us the whole Creed that 't is on her word we say I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST his only Son and the rest which we cannot say with a firm Faith unless GOD at the same time puts in our Hearts that the Church which teaches us deceives us not After then we have on her word said I believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and begun our Profession of Faith by the Divine Persons whom their Majesty places above all we add an holy Reflection on the Church which proposes to us this Belief and say I believe the Catholick Church To which we immediatly after joyn all the Graces we receive by her Ministery the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Blessed Resurrection and in fine Everlasting Life The Fifth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty 'T IS to shew a desire of embroling matters to alledge here with Mr. Claude the Greek Church the Armenian the Egyptian or Aethiopick and that of the Cophti and so many others which brag no less of being the true Church than the Roman does Those say they who are bred up in these Churches revere their Authority every one of these Churches has Followers as zealous as ours True and pure zeal has no sensible Mark every one attributes his as we do to the Grace of the Holy Ghost and resting on the Authority of the Church in which he is says That the Holy Ghost makes use of this Authority to guide him to the Belief of the Scripture and all the Verities of Christianity This is in a manner Mr. Claude's Objection and thus sometimes when Men cannot free themselves they endeavour to cast others into the like Perplexity as theirs But he will gain nothing by this Address for in fine what cause does he pretend to combat for is it for indifferency of Religions Will he say with the wicked that there is not a true Church in which men indeed act by divine Motions And under pretence that the Devil or if he pleases Nature can imitate or to say better counterfeit these Motions will he maintain that they are every where imaginary GOD forbid we will both of us avoid this Rock He will avow then with me that there is a true Church which soever it is where the Holy Ghost acts thô by looking only on the exterior we cannot always so easily discern who those are in whom he dwells Hitherto we are agreed let us see now how far we can go together We agree that there is one true Church in which the Holy Ghost acts we agree that he makes use of exterior Means to put the Truth in our Hearts we agree that he makes use of the Church and of the Scripture Our question is to know by which he begins whether by the Scripture or by the Church whether I say he makes us believe the Church by the Scripture or rather makes us believe the Scripture by the Church I say that the Holy Ghost begins by the Church and it must be so since 't is manifestly the Church that puts the Scripture in our hands Nevertheless Mr. Claude leaves me here and begins to walk alone but he falls at the very first step into a Precipice For his Fear of acknowledging an infallible Authority in the true Church and of believing that on her word we may make an Act of divine and super-natural Faith concerning the Scripture obliges him to say that 't is not possible to begin the reading of the Holy Scripture by such an Act of Faith and that every Act of Faith which precedes this Reading is an Act of human Faith See the deporable Condition in which he puts a Christian at his first going to read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude cannot get forth of this Abyss without returning to the place where he began to leave me and saying afterwards with me that there is a true Church wheresoever she is the veneration of which the Holy Ghost first inspires into true Believers that by this Veneration which he at first puts in their Hearts he fixes them to the Scripture which this Church presents them that this Church requires also of all those she can instruct that they adore upon her word the infallible Truth of this Scripture and acknowledges not for her Children those which have only an human Faith for it But say they the Roman Church is not the sole which attributes to her self this Authority the Greek and other Churches will have one believe them on their word and teach that this is the Means to read the Holy Scripture with the
Submission of a divine Faith And well if it be so it remains only to choose between these Churches But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush she degrades her self as I may say from the Title of the Church since she finds not in her self Authority enough to cause all those whom she begins to instruct to make an Act of a Christian and an Act of divine Faith not even on the Truth of the Scripture whence 't is suppos'd she ought to learn all the rest But Mr. Claude asks how one shall choose between these Churches Shall it be by Enthusiasm It would be by Enthusiasm as I have observ'd in the Conference if the true Church had not her particular Characters that distinguish her from others She has without going any farther or searching any deeper her Succession in which none can shew her by any positive Fact Interruption Innovation or Change This is what no false Church can so clearly glory of as the true because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn her self There will be then always in the Instruction which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition something that no other Sect can or dare say 'T is by this we would convince if it were in question the Greeks the Ethiopians the Armenians and other Sects which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the apparence of Succession that they shew which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church But as for the Calvinian Church there is an end of her because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession and that she dares not as we have now shewn by Mr. Claude's acknowledgment attribute to her self this Authority without which there can neither be any certain Instruction nor any assur'd Foundation of Divine Faith nor in fine any Church 'T would be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession they brag of 'T would be no great Labor to shew them the exact Moment of their Innovation The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we and can themselves shew it them when they please So when they pross us to do it 't is not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible or even obscure and difficult but 't is in a word that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing and making the consequence of an Argument be lost Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book that if any one disgusted with the Calvinistical Church was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti or of the Greeks 't would be then time to shew them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty which they can no more deâ—y than can the other Sects but since the Calvinists with whom we have to do agree it and that none thinks of leaving them but to come to us when we oblige any one to leave them by shewing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrin the work is perfected and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose And to the end the Method of the Conference and the State of the Question which is there treated may be throughly understood it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church but only to shew that there is some-where or other a true Church to which we must submit without examining and besides that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church since she will her self have one examin after her which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities we have remark't and by this acknowledgment lose the Title of the Church This done there 's no more question to preach the Roman Church that is that Body of the Church of which Rome is the Head since to him that will choose between two Churches the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other without any need of disputing farther for this purpose Besides that the Roman Church so evidently beare these Characters of the true Church that there is scarce any man of good Sense even amongst our Reformed but agrees that if there be in the world an Authority to which we must submit 't is that of this Church But however when one sees the Absurdities one is forc'd to own in Calvinism for want of having acknowledg'd in the Churches Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction one soon retires from a Church whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective and one is sufficiently sollicited by the Remains of Christianity which one feels within himself to return to the Church from whence he departed The Sixth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children VVE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses that press'd by this want of Authority which ruins all Instruction in his Church he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Churches Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith we make before we have read the Holy Scripture But he ought first to consider that the Argument I made him regarded not only Children Children are not the only Christians that have not read the Scripture Mr. Claude is not ignorant that there were in the beginning of Christianity not only particular men but also whole Nation which according to the Report of St. Irenaeus had not the Holy Scripture and without reading it ceas'd not to be true Christians The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those that have not read the Holy Scripture of what Age soever they may be and what way soever they may have hapned not to have read it For 't is of those and if they will 't is of those whom St. Irenaeus mentions or of their like that I enquire concerning the Faith with which they believe the Scripture and prepare to read it as being inspir'd by GOD. If they have but an human Faith as Mr. Claude says they are not Christians and if they have a Divine Faith as must be acknowledg'd unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity 't is then true that Divine Faith without ones having read the Scripture immediatly follows the Churches Doctrin and establishes her infallible Authority 'T is on this Authority that every Christian who takes the Scripture in hand begins by believing with a firm Faith that all he is going to read is Divine and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture till he has read it all he believes the first Chapter before he has read the second and he believes all before he has read the first Letter or so much
whether dispers'd or re-united whether always subsisting or sometimes wholly extinct shall clearly find according to his Principles without any need of the Ministery all necessary Aliments For also of what use is a Ministery to them in which Error prevail And would not the Scripture alone be more commodious and more instructive to them This is what the 〈◊〉 should say to avoid the Inconveniences into which we cast them But Mr. Claude neither durst nor ever will dare to do it because he would find in it Inconveniences yet more insupportable and more visible 'T is in a word because he sound that by pushing the Authority and sufficiency as I may say of the Scripture independently of all Ecclesiastical Ministery they must at last destroy the Scripture it self In effect Rom. 1. ◠10. he found in the Scripture that the Scripture ought not to be Vid. Sup. p. 50. as the Philosophy of 〈◊〉 the Rule of 〈◊〉 Republick in Idea but of a People always subsisting which this Scripture calls the Church He has found that this People ought to be always visible on the earth since they ought not only to believe with the Heart but also to confes◠with the Mouth and to use his Terms make Profession of the Christian Truth He has found that the Scripture was entrusted in the hands of such a People to be their unchangeable Rule that there should be always Interpreters establisht by GOD the Author of this Scripture as well as the Founder of this People and that so the Ministery destin'd by GOD to this Interpretation was as eternal as the Church it self If he writ these great Words GOD always preserves in the publick Ministery all that is necessary for the guiding true Believers to Salvation Man Ans 4. q. he cannot found this Assurance on any human Industry Let GOD leave the Ecclesiastical Ministery to it self it must fall If then it be certain that GOD will always keep there all that is necessary to Salvation GOD himself must have promis'd it and the Eternity of the Ministery cannot be founded but on this Promise Mr. Claude also finds it in those Words Thou art Peter Matt. xvi v. 18. and the rest 'T is thence he concludes with us that JESUS CHRIST in speaking to a Church that confesses and confesses without difficulty by her principal Ministers since 't is by St. Peter in the Name of the Apostles to a Church joyn'd to an exterior Ministery and using the Power of the Keys has promis'd her that Hell should not prevail against her consequently supported by this Ministery and therefore he affirms that GOD preserves always in the publick Ministery all that is necessary to the Salvation of GODs Children Another Promise of JESUS CHRIST's Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. directed to those that baptize and those that teach and concluded by these powerful Words And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World makes Mr. Claude as well as us say that JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to be with her Ibid. to baptize with her and to teach with her without interruption even to the end of the World Thus according to this Minister this Promise regards the Church as joyn'd to the Ecclesiastical Ministery which makes him also conclude that JESUS CHRIST promises the Corruption shall never be such in the Ministery but that there shall still be enough to entertain the true Faith of his Elect even to the end of the World In fine Eph. iv Man Ans Ibid. a third Passage to wit that of St. Paul to the Ephefians makes him conclude with us that the Ministery shall last even to the end of the World and continue in a degree and in an Estate sufficient to edify the Body of CHRIST and bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks GOD then must concern himself with it without whose Assistances continually present neither such a Stability nor such an Integrity can be expected in the Ministery After he had thus begun to believe he should have finish◠the Work and given Glory to GOD even to the end Mr. Claude was not far from the Kingdom of GOD when he said that GOD would render himself superior enough over human Infirmity to preserve always manger the Efforts of Hell a Church which should confess the Truth and an exterior Ministery which should furnish true Believers with the Aliments necessary to Salvation He ought then to proceed to the end and believe that the same Hand which would hinder Hell from prevailing so far against the Ministery as to deprive it of these necessary Aliments would hinder it also from prevailing so far as to make any Error have dominion in it and that so much the rather as what he believ'd manifestly comprehends what is left to believe For if he believ'd on the Faith of the Divine Promise that there should be always a Church with which JESUS CHRIST would not cease to teach that is without difficulty that he would not cease to teach with the Doctors of this Church he ought by the same means to believe that he would teach there all Truth JESVS CHRIST not being come Joh. xvi v. 13. nor having sent his Holy Spirit to his Apostles to teach them some Truths but to teach them all Truth as himself declares in his Gospel Nor would it be to any purpose to say that Mr. Claude Promises in the Ministery only sufficient Aliments which can comprehend no more than the Fundamentals of the Faith as our Reformed find them amongst the Lutherans For JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin containing nothing but what is profitable Is 48. v. 17. agreeably to this Word I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things if we find not in the Ministery JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin entire we shall never find that Degree requir'd by Mr. Claude nor that Estate sufficient to bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks 'T would be then something to believe that by the Promise GOD would always keep without interruption in the Ministery all essential Truths for 't would be to acknowledge in the Church with which JESUS CHRIST teaches a beginning of infallible Authority by acknowledging this Authority at least in respect of the first Truths of Christianity But to finish the Work and not to believe by halves we must also believe that JESUS CHRIST in teaching teaches all and confess in his Church an absolute Infallibility Thus we must not say with the Ministers and their incredulous Flock This Ecclesiastical Ministery is of men subject to fall one may doubt after them for this would be to yield to the Temptation and no longer to believe the Promise We must say 't is of men with whom JESUS CHRIST promises to be and teach always then manger human weakness and all the Endeavours of Hell Rom. iv v. 18. against hope we believe in hope that we shall find eternally in their common
tell thee According to this Rule whoever can shew a whole Church a whole Society of Pastors the Beginning of its Being and a Time whensoever during which it was not has convinc'd it of not being a Church truly Christian This is our Pretention and we pretend not that this Question is about a simple Formality We averr that it concerns a fundamental Article contain'd in these words of the Creed I believe the holy Catholick Church an Article besides of such importance that it carries with it the Decision of all the rest But as this Point is decisive so it is no less clear and it cannot be long spoken of but one side or other will shew their weakness Let us say better when a Catholick never so little instructed undertakes a Protestant upon this Point this Protestant how able and subtil soever will find himself reduc'd not always indeed to hold his Peace but what is no less strong than Silence to say nothing when he shall attempt to speak but visible Absurdities This is what here befell Mr. Claude thrô the sole Defect of his Cause for 't will appear that he defended it with all possible Skill and so subtilly that I fear'd for those who heard him for I know what St. Paul writes of such Discourses But in fine we must boldly say The Truth gain'd a manifest Victory What Mr. Claude avows ruins his Cause The Places where he stood without an Answer are indeed such as suffer none And to the end it may not be said I assert what I please or that I now desire what I ere while disclaim'd to be believ'd on my own word two things will shew whatever Opinion may be had of me that in this Point I must necessarily he believ'd The first is that relying on the force of Truth and his Promise who said Luk. xxi v. 15. that he will give us a Mouth and Wisdom which our Adversaries shall not be able to resist where-ever Mr. Claude shall say that he has not acknowledg'd what I make him acknowledge in the Recital of the Conference I engage my self in a second Conference to draw again from him the same Acknowledgment and where-ever he shall say that he was not without an Answer I will force him without any other Argument but those he has already heard to Answers so visibly absurd that any men of good Sense shall acknowledge he had far better have been silent than have made use of them And for fear it should be said for in an Affair that concerns the Conversion of Souls we must as much as may be prevent all Objection for fear then once again it should be said that Mr. Claude engag'd himself in these Inconveniences by ill management I on the contrary affirm that this Advantage is so inherent to our Cause that there is no Minister no Doctor no man living but must in the same manner sink under the like Arguments Those who will make trial of it shall see that this is no vain Promise If any one says I presume too much on my strength now that I examin my self in the presence of GOD if such a Presumption had made me speak I should disown all I had said Instead of promising my self any Advantage I should esteem my self already vanquisht by trusting only to my own Arm and my own Weapons and so far should I be from defying the strong as David that I should rank my self among those Ps 63. of whom the same David sings that the Arrows of Children have pierc'd them and their own Tongue too weak to defend them is in fine turn'd against themselves The Instruction I offer in general to the Pretended Reformed I particularly offer those of the Diocess of Meaux whom I am above all the rest oblig'd to bear in my Bowels Those that shall refuse this Christian Instruction no less peaceable fraternal and paternal than concluding and decisive I shall say to them in the words of St. Paul with sorrow and groaning there being no comfort in the loss of ones Children and Brethren Acts. xx v. 26. I am pure from the Blood of them all This is the first thing which will shew that I impute nothing to Mr. Claude which might give me any Advantage The second is that Mr. Claude himself in the midst of what he opposes against me and amongst all the Turns he gives our Dispute still acknowledges at last what was in contest between us or else shifts it off in such a manner as plainly shews he cannot entirely disown it But this will be better understood by those who after the Instructions and the Conference shall read the Reflexions I make on Mr. Claudes writing Some Attention is requisite to comprehend the whole sequel of these Instructions for whatever Easiness it has pleas'd GOD to let us find in a matter in which he shews the most ignorant as well as the most learned the plain way of Salvation yet would be not discharge any one of the Attention he is capable of and since the following Discourses had their Rise from the XIX and XX Articles of my Exposition the reading of these two Articles which will take up but half a quarter of an hour will facilitate the Vnderstanding of all this Work thô I moreover hope that it is of it self sufficiently intelligible Besides the Reading of them will not be unuseful to Catholicks who ordinarily too much neglect Books of Controversy Grounded on the Faith of the Church they are too careless in perusing such Works by which their Faith might be confirm'd and in which they might find means to reduce the Erring This was not the Vse in the first Ages of the Church the Treatises of Controversy written by the Fathers were sought after by all the Faithful Conversation being one of the Means propos'd to us by the Holy Ghost for the gaining of Vnbelievers every one endeavour'd to render his profitable and edifying by such Reading The Truth insinuated it self by so sweet a Means and Conversation won those whom a premeditated Dispute would perhaps but have made more averse But to the end the Works we make of Controversy may be read as those of the Fathers were let us endeavour as the Fathers did to fill them not only with exact and found Doctrine but also with Piety and Charity and let us as much as we can correct the Dryness not to say the Sourness which is too often found in such Books A TABLE OF THE ARTICLES CONFERENCE I. THE Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction p. 1 II. The Conference p. 20 III. The Sequel of the Conference p. 49 REFLEXIONS THE first Reflexion on Mr. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed p. 58 Second Reflexion on one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Churches Judgment p. 64 Third Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the
Conference an Explication of the manner of instructing Christians and that the Churches infallible Authority is necessary for the knowing and understanding the Scripture p. 73 Fourth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture p. 76 Fifth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty p. 78 Sixth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children p. 82 Seventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute p. 86 Eighth Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches have been establisht p. 88 Ninth Reflexion on the Churches Visibility that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it p. 91 Tenth Reflexion on the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty p. 95 Eleventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's own acknowledgment of the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister p. 99. Twelfth Reflexion Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his Doctrin p. 104 Thirteenth and last Reflexion Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church p. 107 A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAU DE Minister of CHARENTON Concerning the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH MADEMOISELLE de DURAS I. The Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction being in some Doubt about her Religion caus'd me to be ask'd by several Persons of Quality Whether I were willing to Confer with Mr. Claude in her Presence I answer'd I should very readily do it if I saw that such a Conference were necessary for her Salvation She afterwards by the Duke of Richelieu invited me to be at Paris on Tuesday the last of February 1678. and to enter into Conference the next day with this Minister on the Subject she would speak to me about This was to intimate to me that she was willing to see me before the Conference Being with her on the Day appointed she acquainted me That the Point she desir'd to have clear'd with her Minister was that of the Churches Authority which seem'd to her to include the whole Controversy She appear'd to me not likely to come to a Resolution without this Conference so that I judg'd it absolutely necessary I told her she had indeed great Reason to lay her principal and whole Stress on this Article which in effect compreheâ—â—ded the Decision of all the rest as she herself had well observ'd and endeavour'd to make her yet fuller understand the Importance of this Article 'T is a thing said I to her ordinary enough with your Ministers to brag That they cannot be deny'd to believe the Fundamentals of the Faith They say that we believe all they believe but that they believe not all we believe Their Meaning by this is That they have kept all the Fundamentals of the Faith and rejected only what we have added to them They draw thence a great Advantage and pretend that their Doctrine is secure and indisputable Mademoiselle de Duras remembred very well she had often heard them use such Discourses I will make proceeded I but one Remark upon this which is that instead of granting them to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the Mouth I believe the Catholic or Universal Church as the Arians Macedonians and Socinians say with the Mouth I believe in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true Sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholic Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important â—an Article of the Creed Mademoiselle de Duras had read my Treatise of the Exposition and told me she remembred that she had seen something in it like to what I now said but I answer'd my Intention in that Treatise was to mention things very briefly and that 't was fit she should now see them a little more at large You must know then said I to her what is meant by this Expression The Catholic or Universal Church and upon this I began to lay for my Ground that in the Creed which was only a bare Declaration of the Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural Signification and such as is most used amongst Christians Now all Christians by the Name of the Church understand a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESVS CHRIST and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this was the proper and genuine Signification of the Word Church such as was known by every one and us'd in common Discourse I desired no other Witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves When they speak of their Ecclesiastical Prayers of the Churches Discipline of the Churches Faith of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church they mean not the Prayers of the Predestinate nor their Discipline nor their Faith but the Prayers Faith and Discipline of all the Faithful assembled in the exterior Society of GODs People When they say That a Man edifies the Church or that he scandalizes the Church that they receive one into the Church or exclude one out of the Church all this is undoubtedly understood of the exterior Society of GODs People Thus they explain it in the form of Baptism when they say that they are going to receive the Child into the Fellowship of the Christian Church and when for this cause they oblige the Godfathers and Godmothers to instruct the little one in the Doctrin received by GOD's People as it is say they summarily compris'd in the Confession of Faith which we all have And again when they ask of GOD in their Ecclesiastical Prayers to deliver all his Churches from the Throat of the ravening Wolves And yet more expresly in the Confession of Faith Article XXV when they say That the Order of the Church which was established by JESVS CHRIST must be sacred and therefore that the Church cannot subsist if there be not in it Pastors who may have the charge to Teach And in Article XXVI That none ought to drâ—â— aside but that all together ought to keep and maintain the Vnity of the Church submitting to the common Instruction And in fine in Article XXVII That we must
and Cross This Church is Holy because she always constantly and without varying teaches the holy Doctrin which continually brings forth Saints in her Unity This Church has neither Spot nor Wrinkle because she has neither any Error nor any evil Maxim and moreover because she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD who thô Sinners on Earth find in her Communion exterior Means to purify themselves so that they shall one day come in a most perfect Estate before JESUS CHRIST This perhaps is the only Place in which it may with some shew of Probability be said That the word Church taken simply signifies something else than the exterior Society of GODs People and yet you see how clear it is that it ought to be understood as all the others But should this Passage and two or three more have a Signification either Doubtful or even different from this yet are all the other conformable to it For what is there more frequent than such Expressions as these That the Church must be edify'd that the Church has been persecuted that GOD is praised in the midst of the Church that she is saluted that she is visited that there are Pastors and Bishops establisht to govern her and other like the number of which is infinite It cannot then be deny'd that this is the ordinary Signification of the word Church and consequently that which is to be follow'd in so plain a Confession of Faith as is the Apostles Creed In this Sense was it taken by a whole great Council Conc. Ni◠post Symb. the first and holiest of all the Universal Councils when condemning Arius it pronounc'd in this manner The holy Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes all those who say That the Son of GOD was drawn out of nothing 'T is JESUS CHRIST himself who taught us to believe the Church in this Sense For to found this Church he came forth from the invisible Bosom of his Father and rendred himself visible to Men he assembled about him a Society of Men that acknowledg'd him for their Master This is what he call'd his Church To this Primitive Church the Faithful who afterwards believ'd congregated themselves and thence sprung the Church which the Creed terms Catholic or Universal JESUS CHRIST us'd the word Church to signify this visible Society when he said himself that we must hear the Church Mat. xviii v. 17. Tell it unto the Church And again when he said Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it Why said I Madam why will not they of your Religion understand here by the word Church the Society of those that make Profession to believe in JESUS CHRIST and the Gospel since it is certain that this Society is in effect the true Church against which Hell could never prevail neither when it made use of Tyrants to persecute her nor when it set false Doctors on work to corrupt her Hell shall not prevail against the Predestinate 't is certain For if it cannot prevail against this exterior Society with much greater Reason shall it not prevail against the Elect of GOD who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church But by the same Reason that it cannot prevail against the Elect it cannot prevail against the Church which teaches them in which they confess the Gospel and receive the Sacraments 'T is this exterior Society in which the Elect serve GOD that we ought to understand by the word Church and at the same time admire the invincible Force of JESUS CHRIST's Promises who has so supported the Society of his People thô weak in comparison of the Infidels which environ'd it without thô torn by Heretics who divided it within that there has not been so much as one sole Moment in which this Church has not been seen by the whole Earth But the Pretended Reformed have not dar'd to retain this natural Sense of the Gospel For that they might establish themselves they have been forc'd to say in their Confession of Faith Article XXXI That the State of the Church was interrupted and that they were fain to raise it up again anew because it was in Ruine and Desolation In effect when their Church was set up it entred not into Communion with any other Church then extant on the Earth but was form'd by breaking with all the Christian Churches which were in the World They have not then the Consolation which the Catholics have to see JESUS CHRIST's Promise visibly accomplisht and maintain'd during so many Ages They cannot shew a Church which has ever been since JESUS CHRIST came to build it on the Rock and to save his Word they are oblig'd to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate which neither themselves nor any else can shew But JESUS CHRIST would shew something illustrious and clear when he said that his Church maugre the Opposition of Hell should be always invincible he would I say shew something clear and resplendent which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable Assurance of the immutable Certainty of his Promises And in effect let us consider when he spake this Word Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it 'T was when having askt his Apostles Whom say ye that I am Peter in the Name of them all answer'd him Thou art CHRIST the Son of the living GOD. Upon this illustrious Confession of Faith which Flesh and Blood had not dictated but the Heavenly Father had reveal'd to Peter upon this illustrious Confession of Faith I say is founded both St. Peters Dignity and the Churches immoveable Firmness This Church which confesses JESUS CHRIST to be the true Son of GOD is that against which Hell shall never prevail and which shall subsist without Interruption maugre all the Efforts and Artifices of the Devil It appears then clearly that the Church of which JESUS CHRIST speaks in this place is a confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith and consequently an exterior and visible Church See also what he adds And I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Ibid. v. 19. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven And whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven Whatever is to be understood by these Words whether Preaching Ecclesiastical Censures or the Ministery of Priests in the Sacrament of Penance as Catholics understand them 't is still certain That here is an exterior Ministery given to this Church 'T is then this Church which confesses the Faith and confesses it principally by the Mouth of St. Peter 'T is this Church that uses the Ministery of the Keys 'T is she that shall always be on the Earth without Hells ever being able to prevail against her And because JESUS
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
some Truth She must keep and teach all Truth else she is not the Church Nor is it to any purpose to distinguish the fundamental Articles from the others For all that GOD has reveal'd must be retain'd He has reveal'd nothing to us that is not very important for our Salvation Isai xlviii v. 17. I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things In the Faith then which the Church teaches must be found the fulness of the Truths reveal'd by GOD Otherwise she is no longer the Church that JESUS CHRIST founded That particular Persons may be ignorant of some Articles I easily confess but the Church conceals nothing of what JESUS CHRIST has reveal'd And therefore the Faithful who are ignorant of certain Articles in particular confess them nevertheless all in general when they say I believe the Vniversal Church This said I is the Church which your Ministers know not They teach you that this visible and exterior Church may cease to be upon the Earth they teach you that she may err in her Decisions they teach you that to believe this Church is to believe Men But 't is not in this manner that the Church is propos'd to us in the Creed 'T is there propos'd to us to believe her as we believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and therefore the Faith of the Church is joyn'd with the Faith of the three Divine Persons These things having been said at several times but almost in this Order I added that our Doctrin on this Point was so true that the Pretended Reformed who deny'd it could not wholly reject it That is their Synods acted in such a manner as shew'd that they requir'd as well as we an absolute Submission to the Authority and Decrees of the Church Here I let Mademoiselle de Duras see the four Acts of the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion which I have taken notice of in the Exposition Article XX. She had read them there but I caused her to read them in the very Book of the Discipline The first is taken out of the Vth. Chapter Title of Consistories Article XXXI Where 't is said That Disputes about Doctrine should be determin'd by GODs Word if it might be in the Consistory if not the matter should be brought before the Colloquy thence to the Provincial Synod and in fine to the National where the full and final Resolution should be made by GODs Word to which if any one refus'd to submit with an express disclaiming of his Errors he should be cut off from the Church 'T is not then said I to GODs Word alone precisely as such that the full and final Resolution belongs since after it is propos'd an Appeal is permitted but to GODs Word in as much as explicated and interpreted by the Churches last Judgment The second Act is taken out of the Synod of Vitré related in the Book of the Discipline It contains the Letter of Mission which all the Churches make when they send Deputies to the National Synod See the Terms of it We promise before GOD to submit our selves to whatsoever shall be resolv'd in your Holy Assembly being perswaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word This Perswasion said I if it be grounded only on an human Presumption cannot be the matter of so solemn an Oath by which they swear to submit to a Resolution they do not yet know It cannot then be founded but upon an express Promise That the Holy Ghost will preside in the last Judgment of the Church and Catholics say no more The third Act which is found also in the same Book of the Discipline is the Condemnation of the Independents on their saying That every Church ought to govern it self without dependance on any one in Ecclesiastical Matters This Proposition was in the Synod of Charenton declar'd as prejudicial to the State as to the Church 'T was there judg'd That it open'd the Door to all sorts of Irregularities and Extravagances took away all Remedies and made way for the forming as many Religions as Parishes But said I whatever Synods are held if we do not believe our selves oblig'd to submit our Judgments to them we cannot avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and the leaving a Door open for the setting up as many Religions I do not say as there are Parishes but as there are Heads We must then come to this Obligation of submitting our Judgment to what the Catholic Church teaches These three Acts are taken out of the Book of the Discipline printed at Charenton in the year 1667. The fourth is found in a Book of Mr. Blondes's Intitled Actes Autentiques printed at Amsterdam by Blaeu in the year 1655. 'T is a Resolution of the National Synod of Sainte Foy 1578. which names four Ministers to meet at an Assembly where was to be treated a Re-union with the Lutherans by framing a Formulary of Profession of the common Faith Power was given to these Ministers to decide all Points of Doctrin and others that should be brought into Deliberation and to consent to this Confession of Faith even without communicating any farther about it with the Churches if the Time permitted not to do it From this Act I concluded two things One That the whole Synod trusted their Faith in the Hands of four private Persons a thing far more extraordinary than to see particulars submit to the whole Church The other That the Pretended Reformed Church is yet but little assur'd of her Confession of Faith since she consents to the changing it and that in Points so important as are those that make the Dispute with the Lutherans one of which is the Reality If the Pretended Reformed hop'd that the Lutherans would return to them there was no need of a new Confession of Faith What was then intended was That both the one and the other continuing in their Sentiments there should be fram'd a Confession of Faith in which both Parties might agree which could not be done without adding or suppressing something essential in a Confession of Faith which they give us as teaching only the pure Word of GOD. Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledged to me that having seen in my Treatise these Acts and my Reflections which are the same with these I now made she knew not what to answer to 'em and that therefore she desir'd to hear what Answer Mr. Claude would make as well upon these Acts as upon the other Difficulties that regarded the Authority of the Church I told her That thô those of her Religion acted as holding the Churches Authority infallible and indisputable yet 't was true That they deny'd this Infallibility and I added That 't was a constant Maxim in her Religion That every private Person how ignorant soever was oblig'd to believe That he could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils and all the rest
of the Church together She seem'd astonisht at this Proposition But I added That there was yet believ'd in her Religion something far more strange which was That there is a Point of Time when a Christian is oblig'd to doubt whether the Scripture was inspir'd by GOD whether the Gospel is a Truth or a Fable whether JESUS CHRIST was a Deceiver or a Teacher of the Truth When she appear'd yet more amaz'd at this Proposition I assur'd her that both this and the other I just before mention'd were necessary Consequences of the Doctrin receiv'd in their Religion concerning the Churches Authority and that I doubted not but I could force Mr. Claude to own ' em I declar'd to her the Reasons of my Assertion and shew'd her at the same time what a Mark of Falsity 't was amongst them to see how on one side they deny'd that we must believe without examining what the Church decided and that on the other they were fain for the establishing of Order to attribute to the Church the Authority they had deny'd her She let me know that she understood this Discourse and that she remembred she had read it in my Book but that thô she saw not any way to answer it she could scarce believe but that 't was answer'd in her Religion The Countess de Roye came to tell her that Mr. Claude who had promis'd to meet me the next day could not do it having receiv'd a Prohibition Mademoiselle de Duras testify'd a very great Discontent at this Proceeding I would have retir'd and left her with her Sister but she requested me to repeat what I had just before represented to her I did it in a few words and answer'd some Objections that were made me The next Morning Mademoiselle de Duras came to my House with a worthy Person of her Religion whom I knew nam'd Mr. Coton She had made use of him to engage Mr. Claude to the Conference and he brought her word that Mr. Claude had accepted it She desir'd me to repeat what I had said the day before I did so and Mr. Coton confess'd he knew not what to answer and that he had a great Passion to hear Mr. Claude upon this Point He and Mademoiselle de Duras made me some Objections concerning the frequent Revolts of the People of Israel who had so often forsaken GOD the Kings and all the People as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick Worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only Servant of GOD till he learnt from GOD himself that he had reserv'd to himself seven thousand men 1 Kin. xix v. 18. which had not bow'd the Knee unto Baal To this I answer'd That for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophecy'd and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Juda that 't was there under the Reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time The thing pass'd for manifest and I observ'd only how little Sincerity there was in the Ministers to produce still this passage after the Cardinal du Perron had given it so decisive an Answer As to what hapned in Juda it self I would yet make the Objection stronger than they had propos'd it by considering the State of GODs People under Ahaz 2 Kin. xvi 2 Chron. xxviij who shut up the Temple caus'd Vrijah the Priest of the Lord to sacrifice to Idols and fill'd all JERVSALEM with Abominations and afterwards under Manasseh 2 Kin. xxi 2 Chron. xxxiij whose Impieties transcended those of Ahaz But to shew that all this made nothing to the question I desir'd 'em only to observe that Isaiah who liv'd during all the Reign of Ahaz for all these Abominations of the King of the Priest Vrijah and almost all the People never separated from the Communion of Juda no more than did the rest of the Prophets who liv'd at the same time and in all the other which shews that there is always a People of GOD from whose Communion 't is never lawful to separate 'T is written also 2 Kin. xxi v. 10. that in the time of Manasseh GOD spake by the Mouth of all his Prophets and threatned this impious and all the People But these Prophets who reprehended and detested the Impieties of this People separated not from the Communion And to see into the bottom of the Matter we must said I consider the Constitution of the ancient People It had this peculiar to it self that it was multiply'd by carnal Generation by which as well the Succession of the People as of the Priesthood was kept up that this People bore in their Flesh the Mark of the Covenant to wit Circumcision which we do not read to have been ever discontinu'd and so thô the Priests and almost all the People should have prevaricated the State of GODs People subsisted always in its exterior form whether they would or no. Nor could there fall out any interruption in the Priesthood which GOD had ty'd to Aaron's Family But 't is not so with the new People whose exterior Form consists in nothing but the Profession of JESUS CHRISTs Doctrine so that if the Confession of the true Faith should be extinct for one only Moment the Church which has no Succession but by the continuance of this Profession would be wholly extinct without any possibility of ever rising again either in its People or Pastors but by a new Mission I added besides that I would not say the true Faith and true Worship of GOD could be wholly abolisht in the People of Israel so that GOD had no more any true Servants on Earth But I find on the contrary first that 't is clear that maugre the Corruption GOD still reserv'd to himself a sufficient Number of Servants who participated not in the Idolatry For if it were so in Israel which was schismatical and separated from GODs People as GOD himself declar'd to Elijah it must with far greater reason have been so in Judah which GOD had reserv'd to himself for the perpetuating his People and Kingdom till the Time of the Messias When therefore it is written that the King and all the People had forsaken GODâ— Law it must not be understood of all the People without exception but of a great Part and perhaps of the greatest Part which the Ministers did not deny Secondly 'T is not to be imagin'd that GODs Servants and the true Faith were preserv'd only in secret but that in all the succession of the ancient People the true Doctrine always shone forth For there was a continual Succession of Prophets who instead of adhering to the Peoples Errors or dissembling them roâ—â— up against them with force and this Succession was so constant that the Holy Ghost fears not to say 2 Chron. xxxvi v. 15. That GOD rose up night and morning
and daily admonisht the People by the Mouth of his Prophets Jer. xi v. 7. xxv v. 3 4. the forciblest expression that can be imagin'd to shew that the true Faith was never so much as one moment without Publication nor the People without advertisement And that 't was so we just now saw how in all the Reign of Ahaz Isaiah ceas'd not to prophesy and under Manasseh when the Abomination seem'd to be mounted to the highest since neither the Penitence of that King nor the Holiness of his Grandchild Josiah could revoke the Sentence given against this People GOD always remembring the Abominations of Manasseh in this time I say we have seen that GOD made his Prophets speak and that a great part of the People publickly follow'd them appears in that this impious Prince fill'd Jerusalem with innocent Blood 2 Kin. xxi v. 16. a certain sign that he found a great resistance to his Idolatries 'T is also held that he caus'd Isaiah to be put to Death as his Predecessors had done the other Prophets who reprehended them and this History is conserv'd in the ancient Tradition conformable to the Word of our Lord who upbraids the Jows with having kill'd the Prophets and to the Discourse of St. Stephen who says Mat. xxiii v. 31 37. Act. vii v. 52. That there was not any Prophet but they persecuted These Prophets made a part of GODs People these Prophets kept a considerable part both of the Priests and People in their Duty these Prophets who confirm'd their Mission by visible Miracles hindred the Corruption from gaining all and whilst a terrible Multitude and perhaps the Gross of the Synagogue was drawn unto Idolatry they kept the Tradition of the Truth in the People of Israel Ezekiel who appear'd a little after shews it when he speaks of the Priests the Levites Ezek. xliv v. 15. the Sons of Zadok that kept the charge of the Sanctuary when the Children of Israel went astra◠They proceeds he shall come near to me to minister unto me and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the 〈◊〉 and the Blood saith the Lord GOD. This Succession not only that of the Flesh but also that of the Faith and the Ministery was conserv'd in those Priests and these Levites whom GODs Grace and the Prophet's Preaching had retain'd in the Service And 't is to be observ'd That GOD never made this Ministery of the Prophets more illustrious than when Impiety seem'd to have gain'd the upper hand so that in the time when the ordinary means of instructing the People was not destroy'd but obscur'd GOD prepar'd the extraordinary and miraculous Means To this may be added That this extraordinary Means to wit the Prophetical Ministery was before the Captivity in a manner ordinary with GODs People where the Prophets made as 't were an Order always subsisting whence GOD continually drew Divine Men by whose Mouth he spake loudly and publickly to all his People From the Return of the Captivity to JESUS CHRIST there was no more any publick and lasting Idolatry We know what hapned under Antiochus the Illustrious but we know also the Zeal of Mattathias and the great number of true Believers that joyn'd to his House with the famous Victories of Judas Maccabeus and his Brethren under them and their Successors the Profession of the true Faith continu'd to JESUS CHRIST At last the Pharisees introduc'd into the Religion and Worship many Superstitions As the Corruption was about to prevail JESUS CHRIST appear'd in the World 'Till his coming the Religion was preserv'd the Doctors of the Law had many pernicious Maxims and Practices which crept in and got ground by little and little they became common but they were not pass'd into Doctrines of the Synagogue Wherefore JESUS CHRIST also said Mat. xxiii v. 2 3. The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses Seat All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do but do not ye after their Works He ceas'd not to honour the Ministery of the Priests He sent the Lepers to 'em according to the Prescript of the Law He frequented the Temple and reprehending the Abuses continud always joyn'd to the Communion of GODs People and the Order of the Publick Ministery In fine the time of the Fall and Reprobation of the ancient People foretold by the Scriptures and Prophets came when the Synagogue condemn'd JESVS CHRIST and his Doctrine But then JESVS CHRIST had appear'd he had begun in the Bosom of the Synagogue to assemble his Church which was to subsist for ever 'T is then manifest first That there was always a visible Body of GODs People continu'd by an uninterrupted Succession from the Communion of whom 't was never lawful to separate Secondly Always a Succession of High Priests and Priests descended from Aaron and Levites issued from Levi so that there was never any need of GODs raising up People in an extraordinary manner Thirdly 'T is no less evident That the true Faith has always been publickly declar'd and that there cannot be any one moment assign'd in which the Profession of it has not been as clear as the Light of the Sun a thing which shews how much they are deceiv'd who believe that for to keep up the exterior State of the Church 't is sufficient that one can name from time to time pretended Teachers of the Truth For if there be any Time that the Profession of Faith has ceas'd in the Church her Condition is so much worse than that of the Synagogue as she loses from that moment the Succession as I erewhile said After I had spoken these things there was some time employ'd in passing them over again and in the mean time the Countess de Roye came to tell us That Mr. Claude consented to the Conference which if I lik'd it should be at her House about Three a Clock I Was at the Rendez-vous II. The Conference where I met Mr. Claude We began by mutual Civilities and he on his part testify'd a great Respect After this I entred into the Matter by demanding the Explication of the four Acts transcrib'd in my Book and mention'd here before After I had in few words explain'd the Difficulty as it is propos'd in the Exposition and repeated what I had said to Mademoiselle de Duras I added That Mr. Claude ought to be so much the more ready to answer it in that what I said was not at all new to him since in all appearance the Treatise of the Exposition had faln into his hands and that 't was a great satisfaction in an Entertainment of the Nature of this to be assur'd there would be no Surprise Mr. Claude took up the Discourse and having reiterated all his former Civilities in terms yet more obliging he declar'd at first that all I had objected from their Discipline and Synods in my Treatise and also at present was very sincerely related without any alteration of the Words
But for the Sense he desired Leave to tell me That thô there were as I had observed divers Degrees establisht in the Jurisdiction the force of the Decision ought wholly to be refer'd to GODs Word alone As to what I objected That GODs Word had been propos'd in the Consistory from which one might appeal whence it follow'd as I inferr'd that the last Decision from which there was no more appealing belong'd to GODs Word not taken in it self but inasmuch as declar'd by the Churches last Judgment This was not their Intent for they held That the Decision wholly appertain'd to GODs Word alone which the Church in her Assemblies both first and last did but shew and point to But that these divers Degrees had been establisht to give those who err'd leisure to bethink themselves Wherefore they proceeded not at first by Excommunication the Consistory hoping that a greater Assembly such as the Colloquy might be and afterwards the Provincial Synod compos'd of a greater number of Persons perhaps more respected or at least less suspected by the Gain-sayer would dispose him to hear the Truth That the Colloquy and the Provincial Synod us'd like Moderation thrô the same Reason of Charity but after the National Synod had spoken as 't was the last human Remedy there was no longer any thing to be hop'd and that they proceeded also to the last Sentence by making use of Excommunication as the last Effort of the Ecclesiastical Power That 't was not thence to be concluded that the National Synod held it self any more Infallible than the precedent Assemblies but only that after all had been try'd they came to the last Remedy That for the Promise made before the National Synod 't was founded only on the Hopes they had that the Assembly would follow GODs Word and that the Holy Ghost would preside in it which signify'd not that there was an entire Certainty and besides that the Word being persuaded was an honest manner of expressing a Condition without weakning the Reverence of so great an Assembly or the favorable Presumption that ought to be had for their Proceedings As to the Condemnation of the Independents he pray'd meto observe that touching the Authority of the Church and her Assemblies there was something in which those of his Religion agreed with us and something in which they agreed with the Independents With us That Ecclesiastical Assemblies are necessary and useful and that some Subordination must be establisht With the Independents That these Assemblies how numerous soever are not therefore Infallible This being so they were oblig'd to condemn the Independents who deny'd not only the Infallibility but also the Utility and Necessity of these Assemblies and this Subordination 'T is in this said he that Independency consists He added That to maintain it was in effect to overthrow Order and make way for as many Religions as there were Parishes because all means of Agreeing were taken away by it Whence he concluded That thô they agreed Ecclesiastical Assemblies not to be Infallible Means yet 't was sufficient for the maintaining of them and condemning the Independents that they were useful ones For the Synod of Sainte Foy the Matter there agitated was either to render the Lutherans more tractable by making them said he approach to us or however to establish a mutual Toleration which oblig'd us not to suppress any thing in or add any thing to the Confession of Faith which was always held for unalterable And that besides thô full Power was given to four Ministers yet I well knew that such Acts were always subject to Ratification in case the Proxies went beyond their Instructions Witness the Ratifications necessary in the Treaties agreed by the Plenipotentiaries of Princes and other like Examples in which there is always a Condition to obtain the Princes Ratification a Condition which without being exprest is naturally fixt to such Procurations After he had said these things in a Discourse of sufficient length very clear and well compos'd he added That he Believ'd me so equitable as to acknowledge willingly that as in things in which I should be to explain to him our Sentiments and our Councels 't would be fit he should acquiesce in what I should tell him of them so 't was no less just I should rest satisfy'd with his Explication of the Articles of their Discipline and Sentiments of their Religion it being certain that there was no other amongst 'em but what he had now declared to me I reply'd to this Expression that what he said would be true if it concern'd only the Explication of their Rites if this Word might be us'd and the manner of their Administring the Word or Sacraments or holding of Synods that in this I should believe him as better Instructed but that here I pretended it had hapned to them as it does to all those who are in Error that is to fall into Contradiction and be forc'd to set up what they had deny'd That I knew they deny'd any Obligation of submittingto the Churches Judgment without examining it but that at the same time I pretended this Infallibility of the Church to be so necessary that even those who deny'd it in Speculation could not forbear establishing it in Practice if they would keep any Order amongst them Besides that if the Question were here about shewing any Contradiction in the Sentiments of the Catholic Church I should not pretend to oblige him to receive the Explication I should give him of her Sentiments and her Councels but that it should then be free for him to draw from their Words such Inference as he pleas'd and I thought he would not refuse me as much to which he consented without Difficulty I had no Design to insist much on the Synod of Sainte Foy which would I thought cast me too far from the two Propositions the Acknowledgment of which I aim'd to draw from him I only therefore answer'd That I yielded to the Reason he alledg'd concerning the necessity of a Ratification thô in matters of Faith such Powers and Trusts were alittle Extraordinary and besides I was willing to believe that the Synod had no Design the Deputies should overturn all But that which toucht me and which he seem'd not to have answer'd was That the Synod had doubted of their Confession of Faith since they permitted the making of another and I saw not how this agreed with what they farther told us That this Confession contain'd nothing but the pure Word of GOD in which every one knows that there is nothing to be chang'd As to what he said That their Aim was only to reduce the Lutherans to more equitable Sentiments or however to establish a mutual Toleration two things gainsay'd it 1. That there was mention of a Power to decide all Points of Doctrin Which manifestly concern'd the Reality whence the Lutherans would never recede 2. That to settle a mutual Toleration there was no need of framing a Confession of
common Faith but only of Establishing this Toleration by a Synodal Decree as had been done at Charenton Mr. Claude answer'd that the Point of Doctrin to be decided was Whether a mutual Toleration might be establisht and that the Confession of common Faith would have done nothing else but declar'd this Toleration Which he deny'd not but it might be done in a Synod as I must grant that it might also be done in a Confession of Faith where there should have been an express Article to that purpose I answer'd him That this could never be call'd a Confession of common Faith and askt him Whether he thought the Lutherans or they should have retrench'd any thing of what the one said for the Reality and the other against it He answer'd me No. And then said I each party would have continu'd in the Terms of their own Confession of Faith having nothing common but the Article of Toleration There were said he many other Points in which we agreed 'T is granted answer'd I but 't was not about these Points the Accord was to be made the Question was about the Reality and some others on which there could not be made a Confession of common Faith except one of the Parties chang'd or both agreed upon ambiguous Expressions which each might draw to their own Opinions a thing that had been oft attempted as Mr. Claude himself could not but owne He granted it and related also the Assembly of Marbourg and some others held for that purpose I concluded then That I had reason to believe the Synod of Sainte Foy had a like Design and that 't would have been to mock the World to call that a Confession of common Faith which should have made appear such manifest oppositions on so important Points of the Christian Doctrin To which I farther added 't was so much the more certain That a Confession of Faith was as I said really in agitation in that the Lutherans having already several times declar'd against a Toleration there was nothing to be expected from them but by the Means of which I spake The Matter rested there and I only said That every one need but consider what he ought to think in his Conscience of a Confession of Faith which a whole National Synod had consented to change When Mr. Claude was saying That the Oath of submitting to the National Synod included a Condition I had interrupted him by putting in a word Yes said I they hop'd well of the Synod yet without certainty and expecting the Event they forbare not to swear they would submit Mr. Claude telling me here That I interrupted him and praying me to let him say all I held my peace But after the Affair of Sainte Foy was discuss'd I said to him That I thought it necessary before we pass'd any farther I should tell him in a few words what I had conceiv'd of his Doctrin to the end we might not speak in the air I said then to him You say Sir That these Words Being persuaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word are only an honest manner of proposing a Condition He agreed it Let us then said I reduce the Proposition into a conditional one and we shall see what will be the sense of it I swear to submit to all you shall decide on this Supposition or Condition That what you shall decide be agreeable to GODs Word Such an Oath is nothing else but a manifest Illusion as signifying nothing and being but what I might make to Mr. Claude or he to me But in this there would not be any thing serious and 't is to be observ'd that something more particular must be aim'd at since this Oath is only made to the Synod which gives the final determination thô in Mr. Claude's Sense there were as much Reason to make it to the Consistory to which they ought to submit as well as to the Synod supposing it has the Word of GOD for its Guide In this place I held my peace a little and seeing that there was not a word said I went on thus But in fine then Sir if I well understand your Doctrin you believe That a private person may doubt of the Churches Judgment even when she gives her final Determination No Sir answer'd Mr. Claude 't is not to be said That one may doubt there being all the Likelihood in the World that the Church will judge well He that says Likelihood Sir reply'd I immediatly says a manifest Doubt But said Mr. Claude There is more for JESUS CHRIST having promis'd that those who would seek should find since 't is to be presum'd they will seek well 't is to be also believ'd they will judge well and in this assurance there is something indubitable But when there shall be seen in Councels Cabals Factions different Interests it may with reason be doubted Whether in such an Assembly there will not be mixt something human and doubtful Pray Sir said I let us set aside what is good for nothing but to throw dust in ones Eyes All you say of Cabals Factions Interests is absolutely to no purpose and consequently serves only to perplex There is nothing said Mr. Claude more to the purpose And I affirm answer'd I That your self will grant there 's nothing less to the purpose For I ask you Sir Supposing there should appear in the Councel neither Factions nor Cabals supposing also one were assur'd that there were not any and that all pass'd in Order must one receive the Decision without examining it He was fain to answer No. Whence I immediatly concluded I had then reason to say That all you alledg'd as very considerable concerning Factions and Cabals was in the bottom only an Amusement and in fine that a private person a Woman any ignorant Fellow whatever he is may believe and ought to believe that he may happen to understand GODs Word better than a whole Councel thô assembled from the four quarters of the World and than all the rest of the Church Yes said he 't is so I repeated twice or thrice the Proposition he had granted adding still some stronger Circumstance but evidently contain'd in what was accorded What said I better than all the rest of the Church together and than all her Assemblies thô compos'd of the holiest and most illuminated persons in the Universe For all these are still but men after whom according to your Doctrin every one ought still to examin A private person shall believe that he may have more Grace more Light in fine more of the Holy Ghost than all the rest of the Church All this must pass and I might have added more than all the Fathers more than all the past Ages reckoning immediatly from the Apostles times But proceeded I if it be so how do you avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and what Means has the Church left to hinder the
being of as many Religions I do not say as there are Parishes but as there are Heads We have said he Synods which are Means to hinder so great Evils Means not infallible but nevertheless profitable as I have said For thô a Pastor that preaches is not infallible his Ministery ceases not to be profitable because he declares the Truth But a great Assembly compos'd of more persons and those of greater Learning will yet better make this Declaration Methinks Sir reply'd I That you refer all to Instruction but this is not precisely either the Intention or Institution of Synods for oftentimes one understanding private Person will give more Instruction than a whole Synod together What must be expected from a Synod is not so much Instruction as a Decision by Authority to which there is a necessity of yielding for this is what both the ignorant who doubt and the proud who contradict stand in need of An ignorant private person if you leave him to himself will confess to you that he knows not on what to resolve and far from abating Pride in a Synod you carry it to its highest Point since you oblige a private person to believe that he can understand the Scripture better than the Synod and all the rest of the Church and the Synod it self thô assembled from the whole Church being askt by him whose Faith it examins whether he is not oblig'd to examin after the Synod and whether it may not so fall out that he thô a private person may understand the Scripture better than all the Pastors assembled the Synod thô universal must according to your Doctrin declare That without doubt he may Presumption Sir cannot go higher And observe if you please that these Assemblies which you propose as profitable Means are no longer so when every one may believe that he has a better and the only one that can secure him to wit that of examining by himself and believing only his own Judgment This Sir is perfect Independency for the Independents neither refuse to hold Synods for their mutual Instruction nor to receive these Synods when they find that these Synods say well You know they have held some He acknowledg'd they had held one to frame their Confession of Faith I matter not reply'd I whether one or more they do not then absolutely reject them and they reject in them precisely no more than you do which is the obligation of submitting to them without examining And upon this to reduce my self in few words see what was my Argument The Independents are very willing to have Ecclesiastical Assemblies for Instruction all they will not have is the authoritative Decision which you will no more have than they you are then wholly conformable and you ought not to have condemn'd them You see not then Sir said Mr. Claude That we deny not but there is an Authority in Synods such an one as the Paternal Authority such an one as the Authority of Magistrates such an one as the Authority a Master has over his Scholar and a Pastor ovr his Flock all these Authorities have their use and are not to be rejected under pretence That the Fathers Magistrates and Masters may be deceiv'd 't is the same then with the Authority of the Church But Sir answer'd I the Independents deny not the Authority of Magistrates nor the Authority of Masters over their Scholars nor that of Pastors over their Flocks They have Pastors Sir for whom they require no less than you that there should be some Deference had and much more will they not deny but it ought to be had for a whole Synod If then you accuse them of denying the Authority of Synods you must add something to what they believe and there is nothing to be added but what we believe which is That we must submit to them without examining After this for a little time we did nothing on both sides but repeat the same things Which having caus'd Mr. Claude to observe I said to him In fine Sir we should dispute without end every one has nothing more to do but to examin in his Conscience and before GOD whether he thinks himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all Councels and all the rest of the Church and how such an Opinion can agree with the Docility and Humility of GODs Children I inculcated in few words what a Pride it was for one to believe he could understand GODs Word better than all the rest of the Church and how after this nothing hindred the being of as many Religions as there are Heads Mr. Claude here told me he wonder'd this Proposition should appear so strange to me That a private person might believe he might happen to understand the Holy Scripture better than the whole Church assembled That the Case had hapned and he could give me many Examples of it The first in the Councel of Ariminum where the Word Consubstantial was rejected and Arianism set up I interrupted him saying Whither do you carry us Sir From the Councel of Ariminum you will bring us to the false Councel of Ephesus to the Councel of Constance to that of Basil to that of Trent When shall we have done if we must here pass over all these Councels I declare to you that I will not engage my self in this Discussion since our Question may be determin'd by something more precise But because you have mention'd the Councel of Ariminum tell me Sir I beseech you whether the Fathers of that Councel continu'd long in this erroneous Decision I ought to have said equivocal and imperfect rather than erroneous I believe indeed Sir said he That they quickly return'd Say say Sir answer'd I that assoon as the Emperor Constantius declar'd Protector of the Arians and Persecutor of the Faithful had permitted them to retire these Bishops complain'd aloud of the Violence and Surprise that had been put upon ' em Oblige me not Sir to relate this Story which you know as well as I and acknowledge That 't is unjust to compare a Councel manifestly pack'd with Assemblies held canonically and according to Order Ha Sir reply'd Mr. Claude do not we say That the Councel of Trent was neither free nor canonical You say it Sir and we deny it and that is not the Question of this Dispute The present Question is to know whether you can avoid Independency and whether there be in your Doctrin any Remedy against this insupportable Presumption of a private person who must believe according to your Principles that he can understand the Scripture better than the best assembled and best held universal Councels and than all the rest of the Church together Let us leave then if you will the Council of Ariminum see here another indisputable Example 'T is the Judgment of the Synagogue when it condemn'd JESUS CHRIST and consequently declar'd that he was not the Messias promis'd by the Prophets Tell me Sir would not a private person who
should then have believ'd our Lord to be the true CHRIST have judg'd better than all the rest of the Synagogue together See then an indubitable Case in which one may without Presumption do what you think so presumptuous In effect proceeded he 't is no Presumption not to give to the Church what belongs only to GOD alone We cannot give him any thing greater than to believe him blind-fold as you would have us believe the Church But you know that St. Paul at least as much inspir'd as the Church forbears not to declare to the Corinthians That he will not have Dominion over their Faith 2. Cor. i. 23. The Church ought yet less to do it than he We must not then believe her simply on her Word we must examin after her and make use of our Reason as those of Beraea did who examin'd the Scriptures Acts xvii v. 11. to see whether the things were there as St. Paul had preacht them When Mr. Claude held his Peace Here said I are many things But we must first take in hand this indisputable Example you have propos'd to us Upon this I remonstrated to him That the Christian Church had great Priviledges above the Synagogue even considering the Synagogue in the time of its greatest Glory But not to mention this 't was a strange thing to compare the Synagogue falling at the very Moment when its Hardning and Reprobation was clearly markt by the Prophets with the Christian Church which was never to fall But in fine Sir reply'd he one might have then made to this private Person the same Argument you make to us To alledge the Prophets was to no purpose for 't was concerning the Application of these Prophecies to JESUS CHRIST that the Synagogue doubted Thus a private Person could no more believe in JESUS CHRIST without believing at the same time that he understood the Scripture better than all the Synagogue and this is the Argument you make to us There were but few People at the Conference and they were all Hugonots except the Mareschalless De Lorge I saw two of these Gentlemen look on one another at this place with Complacence I was toucht that a Reasoning so visibly ill should make such an Impression on these Spirits and I besought GOD to grant me the Grace that I might by something that should be clear destroy the odious Comparison which was made of his always well-beloved Church with the faithless Synagogue at that very Moment he had assign'd for her Divorce You say then Sir said I to Mr. Claude that the Argument I make may authorise the Error of those private Persons who condemn'd JESUS CHRIST on the Faith of the Synagogue and on the contrary condemn those of Presumption who believ'd JESUS CHRIST alone before the whole Synagogue Yes Sir said he the thing is so repeating his Discourse afresh Let us see then said I whether my Argument has this unhappy Consequence It consists Sir in saying That the Churches Authority being deny'd there is no longer any exterior Means which GOD can make use of to dissipate the Doubts of the Ignorant and inspire necessary Humility into the Faithful To the end such an Argument may be made concerning the time when JESUS CHRIST was condemn'd it must be said that there was not then any exterior Means any certain Authority to which one ought necessarily to submit Now Sir who can say this since JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth that is the Truth it self which appear'd visibly in the midst of Men the Eternal Son of GOD to whom a Voice from on high bare Witness before all the People Matt. iii. v. 17. This is my well-beloved Son hear ye him who to confirm his Mission rais'd the Dead heal'd those that were born blind and wrought so many Miracles that the Jews themselves confess'd never any Man had done the like There was then Sir an exterior Means a visible Authority But 't was contested 'T is true but 't was infallible I do not pretend Sir that the Churches Authority should never be contested I hear you you Sir who contest it But I say it ought not to be so by Christians I say That she is Infallible I say That there never was any time when there was not on the Earth a visible and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit Before JESUS CHRIST we had the Synagogue when the Synagogue was to fail JESUS CHRIST himself appear'd when JESUS CHRIST retir'd he left his Church to which he sent his Holy Spirit Bring again JESUS CHRIST teaching preaching working Miracles I have no longer need of the Church but also take from me the Church I must have JESUS CHRIST in Person speaking preaching deciding with Miracles and an infallible Authority But you have his Word Yes we have without doubt a Word Holy and Adorable but such an one as suffers it self to be explicated and manag'd how one will and makes no Reply to those that misunderstand it I say we must have an exterior Means of resolving Doubts and this Means must be certain And not to go over again the Reasons already alledg'd now there is nothing else requir'd but to answer your Objection concerning the Error of the Synagogue I aver you are so far from being able to say That there was not then a certain exterior Means or speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit their Judgments that you must avow there was one the highest and most infallible that ever was which is that of JESUS CHRIST and so that there was never any time when the Argument I use against the Protestants could less be made which is That they want an exterior infallible Means to determine Doubts about the Scriptures After I had said this I perceiv'd there was no Reply to be made me In effect There was not a Word said to me upon it thô I held my Peace to hear what Answer would be made I will not say that Mr. Claude stood silent 't is an Effect not much to be expected in Conferences of this nature He repeated something of what he had already said and insisted afresh on what the Apostle himself had declar'd That he had not Dominion over the Consciences I was glad that he return'd to this Passage which I had an intent of Explicating at first but was fain to go to what was most pressing which was the Example of the Synagogue This being done I only askt Mr. Claude whether the Apostles Meaning when he said to the Corinthians We have not Dominion over your Faith was that they must examin after him He saw well that it was not and confest it I concluded Nor does the Church Sir pretend to have Dominion over the Faith when she requires us to believe it in her Decisions because she gives not this Authority to her self no more than St. Paul did but to the Holy Ghost who inspires her You equal then said Mr. Claude to St. Paul Author of the
that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
there was a Church before them from which they brake and against which they set up another Church No said he They corrupted it Ha Sir reply'd I What Difficulty is this Never any Hereticks separated but by corrupting some of the Churches Children and separating with them from the Church in which they had all been baptiz'd But in fine tell me Sir Was not the Sect of the Arians and that Church which is nam'd the Arian new If you mean Sir answered he That Arius was the first who spake against the Divinity of the Son of GOD 't is not true Origen before him and Justin Martyr said the same thing Ha Sir said I That a Martyr deny'd the Divinity of GGDs Son is what I shall never believe As to Origen you know that he is alledg'd both for and against it He is an ambiguous and suspected Author But Sir let us leave uncertain Facts And let us endeavour to find one about which both you and I may agree That Sect which after the Condemnation pronounc'd against Arius join'd with this excommunicated Priest and form'd a Church against the Church was it not new He could not but grant it To prove its Newness continu'd I was there any need of ascending up to the Apostles and could not one say to it Church separated from that other Church in which Arius was born and in which he receiv'd Baptism you were neither yesterday nor the day before One might said Mr. Claude May one not say as much of the Macedonian Church which deny'd the Divinity of the Holy Ghost of the Nestorians who divided JESUS CHRISTs Person of the Eutychians that confounded his two Natures and of the Pelagians who deny'd Original Sin and the Grace of JESUS CHRIST Might one not say to them without ascending up to the Apostles When you came into the World you found the Church baptizing Children unto Remission of Sins and praying for the Conversion of Sinners and Infidels What then all these Hereticks and all the rest whom you and we know oppugned was believ'd not only from the Apostles time but yesterday and the day before and at the time when these Heresiarchs came and they found the Church in this Belief But answer'd Mr. Claude There are two ways of establishing Error the one open and the other secret and insensible Stay Sir said I to him we ought to propose evident Facts which both Parties agree I do not agree this insensible way of establishing Error Ha Sir said he will you say That you shall find praying to Saints and Purgatory in the Apostles times No Sir answer'd I I will say nothing about them for you will not agree it and I will say such things as you may agree Deal in the same manner with me He that shall draw most solid Advantages from Facts granted by his Adversary will have a great Argument that the Truth is for him For 't is the Property of Truth to keep it self upon all sides and to condemn Error by Facts which Error it self acknowledges And since you mention Prayer to Saints you are sincere is it not true that Mr. Daillé grants us thirteen hundred Years Antiquity Thirteen hundred Years Sir answer'd he is not the whole time of the Church I agree it said I to him but in fine my Adversary grants me already thirteen hundred Years he gives me St. Gregory Nazianzen St. Basil St. Ambrose St. Hierom St. Chrysostom St. Augustin All these said Mr. Claude are but Men. Let them be Men as much as you please But in fine we have from our Adversaries Confession thirteen hundred Years for Invocation of Saints and Veneration of Relicks for these two things were joyn'd together as you know Mr. Daillé asserts And how much does Mr. Blondel grant for Prayer for the Dead 'T is true said Mr. Claude That this is the antientest Error of the Church Fourteen hundred Years Antiquity said I to him is what Mr. Blondel yields us I say not this to create a Prejudice for the Truth of our Doctrin that is not the matter in hand But I say it to shew That we are not without Defence upon these Examples of Errors insensibly spread since we already have by your Consent thirteen hundred and fourteen hundred Years Let us come then to evident Facts on which I may agree For as for you you agree That the Arians Nestorians Pelagians and in one word all Hereticks were establisht as I have said They found not any Church to which they united themselves They erected one which was separated from all the other Churches that then were This is certain Is it not manifest I expected Mr. Claude contradicted it not I thought not my self oblig'd to press him any farther upon a thing evident and already own'd Now said I to him how were the Orthodox Churches establisht When particular Persons and People for Example the Indians were converted found they not a Church already establisht to which they united themselves He acknowledg'd it Did you went I on find one in the whole World to which you join'd your selves Did you embrace the Greek the Armenian or the Ethiopian Church when you forsook the Roman Can we not mark you the precise Date of your Churches and say to all that Church to all that exterior Society in which you are Minister you were not yesterday But said Mr. Claude here were we not of this Church We went not out we were driven out of it We were Excommunicated in the Council of Trent Thus we went forth But we carried the Church with us What Discourse is this Sir said I to him If you had not been driven out would you have staid in it To what purpose then is that Command so often repeated amongst you Go forth of Babylon my People Tell me sincerely Would you have staid in the Church if she had not driven ye out No sure Sir said Mr. Claude To what purpose then answer'd I do you say here That you were driven out Because said he it is true And well Sir proceeded I it is true This is common to you be not displeas'd at what I am going to say this is common to you with all Hereticks The Church in which they receiv'd Baptism cast them forth Excommunicated them They would perhaps have willingly stay'd in it to corrupt and seduce but the Church cut them off And as to what you say That you were in this Church which cast you out and that you carry'd the Church with you what Heretick may not say as much 'T was not of Heathens that the Ancient Hereticks compos'd their Churches 't was of Christians bred in the Church You also have not form'd yours by amassing Mahometans I agree it But in this you do not outgo the Examples of the ancient Hereticks and they were all able to say as well as you That they were condemn'd by their Adversaries For they were not made to sit amongst the Judges when their Novelty was condemn'd But Sir reply'd Mr.
Claude we agree not this Novelty What is in the Scripture is not new Patience Sir I beseech you said I to him None of the Ancient Hereticks agreed the Novelty of their Doctrin they all alledg'd the Holy Scripture for themselves But there was one Novelty which they could not deny to wit That the Body of their Church was not yesterday and you granted it And well in fine said Mr. Claude if the Arians if the Nestorians if the Pelagians had been right at the Bottom they would not have been to blame in their Proceeding To blame or not said I to him is not Sir the Bottom of the Question But it still continues evident That you have the same Proceeding with them the same Conduct the same Defences in a word That in forming your Church you have done as all the Hereticks did and we do what all the Orthodox have done Every one may judg in his Conscience which he had rather resemble and I have no more to say Mr. Claude was not silent on this occasion but told me That this Argument was excellent in Favor of the Jews and Pagans and that they might maintain their Cause by the Reason I made use of Let us see said I to him Sir and remember that you promise us the same Argument The same answer'd he without doubt The Jews and Pagans upbraided the Christians with their newness you know it The Writings of Celsus and so many others are Proofs of it I agree it said I to him and is this all And 't was true proceeded he That Christianity was new if we regard it in the State immediately preceding What said I to him when JESUS CHRIST began to preach could they say to him as I do to you That in the Church he was born in there was yesterday no mention of him non his Coming What then was St. John Baptist Anna the Prophetess Simeon the Wise Men and the Priests consulted by Herod when they answer'd him That the Place of his Birth was Bethlehem Was there any one Moment when CHRIST was not expected in the Church where he was born and so well expected that the Jews expect him still 'T is very true Sir That there was a Necessity this Novelty should once be seen to happen and this Change by CHRIST expected at CHRISTs Coming But JESUS CHRIST is not therefore new Heb. xiii v. 8. He is the same yesterday to day and for ever 'T is true answer'd Mr. Claude but the Synagogue agreed not That JESUS was the CHRIST But reply'd I The Synagogue condemn'd not St. John Baptist but the Synagogue heard without contradicting them the Wise Men Simeon and Anna. JESUS CHRIST gather'd in the Synagogue the then true Church the Children of GOD which it contain'd The Synagogue at last condemn'd him But JESUS CHRIST had already founded his Church He gave it its last Form presently after his Death and the new People follow'd the old without any Interruption These are undeniable Truths And for what concerns Paganism 't is true the Pagans upbraided the Christians with their Newness But what did the Christians answer Did they not shew That the Jews always believ'd the same GOD which the Christians ador'd and expected the same CHRIST That the Jews believ'd all this yesterday and the day before and always without Interruption But Sir once again said Mr. Claude The Gentils agreed not all this What answer'd I was there amongst them any one so unreasonable as to say That there never were any Jews or that this People expected not a CHRIST and ador'd not one sole GOD Creator of Heaven and Earth Did not they shew the Pagans the manifest Beginning of their Opinions and the Date I do not say of the Authors of their Sentiments but of their Gods themselves and this by their own Histories by their own Authors and by their own Chronology Do you believe That a Pagan could have made a Christian confess That the Christian Religion was new or that there never was any Society which had the same Belief the Christians then had as I make you own That all the Hereticks which you and I acknowledg for such came in this manner and that you have done as they did See Sir how you prove That the Jews and Pagans might maintain their Cause by the same Argument I use None can ever do it nor can ever any one deny the evident Fact vvhich I affirm That vve do as all the Orthodox and you as all the Hereticks have done Here the Conversation ended It had lasted five Hours with a great Attention of the whole Assembly We heard one another peaceably We spake on both sides close enough and except the beginning vvhere Mr. Claude a little enlarg'd his Discourse in all the rest he came to the Matter and presented himself to the Difficulty vvithout Recoiling 'T is true he aim'd rather to entangle me in the Inconveniences in vvhich I engag'd him than to shevv hovv he could himself get out But in fine all this proceeded from the Cause and he assuredly said all that his could furnish him vvith upon the Point to vvhich vve had confin'd our selves For my part I car'd not to go from it since 't was that which Mademoiselle de Duras desir'd to have clear'd She appear'd to me toucht I nevertheless retir'd trembling and fearing lest my weakness might have put her Soul in danger and the Truth in doubt I Visited her the next day III. The Sequel of the Conference I was glad to see she perfectly understood all I had said This is what I had promis'd her I had represented to her That amidst the immense Difficulties which the Spirit of Cavilling and the Depth of the Christian Doctrin had caus'd to spring up a-amongst men GOD would have his Children provided of an easy Means to resolve themselves in what concern'd their Salvation that this Means was the Churches Authority that this means was easy to be establisht easy to be understood easy to be follow'd so easy said I and so clear that if you shall not understand what I shall say upon it I am contented you believe me to be in the wrong This in effect must be so when the matter is well handled But I durst not promise my self that I had treated it as I ought I knew with joy and thanksgiving that GOD had turn'd all to good The Arguments that ought to affect affected her She could not comprehend how an ignorant private Person could without an insupportable pride believe he might happen to understand the Scripture better than all the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church She saw as well as I how weak the Example of the Synagogue was when it condemn'd JESUS CHRIST and how little reason there was to say That the particular persons who believ'd well wanted an Exterior Authority to resolve them when they had in the Person of JESUS CHRIST the greatest and most visible Authority that can be imagin'd I
pass'd again over the Doubt in which one must be touching the Scripture if one doubted of the Churches Authority She said she never so much as thought that a Christian might doubt one moment of the Scripture and besides she perfectly understood that Mr. Claude rejecting the Name of Doubt acknowledg'd the Thing in other terms Which serv'd only to make appear how hard this Matter was both to think and say since being forc't to own it he thought not fit to do it in simple Terms For in fine not to know whether a thing be or no if it be not to Doubt is nothing It appear'd then clearly That the two Propositions which were in debate were establisht And I shew'd Mademoiselle de Duras in few words That her Church by believing two such strange Things had chang'd the whole Order of instructing GODs Children practis'd at all times in the Christian Church For this purpose I needed only repeat to her what she had heard me say and what she had heard Mr. Claude grant GOD nevertheless put in my heart something more express and I said to her as follows The Order of instructing GODs Children is to teach them before all things the Apostles Creed I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins and the rest As much as the Faithful believes in GOD the Father and in his Son JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe the Universal Church where the Father where the Son where the Holy Ghost is ador'd As much I say as he believes the Father so much does he believe the Church which makes Profession to believe that GOD the Father of JESUS CHRIST has adopted Children whom he has united to his Son As much as he believes in the Son so much does he believe the Church which he has assembled by his Blood which he has establisht by his Doctrin which he has founded on the Rock and against which he has promis'd that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe that Church to which the Holy Ghost was given for a Teacher And he that says I believe in GOD and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost Rom. X. v. 10. when he says I believe confesses With the heart he believeth unto Righteousness and with the mouth Confession is made unto Salvation as St. Paul says and he knows that the Faith he has is not a private Sentiment There is a Church a Society of Men which believes as he does 'T is the Universal Church which is neither here nor there neither at this time nor at another She is not confin'd to one only Country like the ancient Judaical Church nor is she to end as that was Dan. II. v. 44. C. 7. v. 14. and her Kingdom shall not pass to other People as 't is written in Daniel She is at all times and in all places and so dispers'd that whoever will come to her may She has no Interruption in her Succession for there is not any time when one cannot say I believe the Vniversal Church As there is not any time but one may say I believe in GOD the Father and in his Son and in the Holy Ghost This Church is Holy because all she teaches is holy because she teaches all the Doctrin which makes Saints that is all the Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST because she encloses all the Saints in her Unity And these Saints must not only be united in Spirit They are exteriorly united in the Communion of this Church and this is meant by the Communion of Saints In this Universal Church in this Communion of Saints is the Remission of Sins There is Baptism by which Sins are remitted there is the Ministery of the Keys by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on Earth Matt. xvi v. 19. John xx v. 23. is remitted or retained in Heaven Behold then in this Church an exterior Ministery which lasts as long as the Church that is to say always since this Church is believ'd at all times not as a thing which has been or must be but as a thing which actually is See then to what this Church is joyn'd and what is joyn'd to this Church She is joyn'd immediatly to the Holy Ghost which governs her I believe in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church To this Church is joyn'd the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Resurrection of the Flesh eternal Life Out of this Church there is neither Communion of Saints nor Remission of Sins nor Resurrection to eternal Life Behold the Faith of the Church establisht in the Creed It makes no mention of the Scripture Is it because it despises it GOD forbid You shall receive the Scripture from the Hands of the Church and because you never doubted of the Church you shall never doubt of the Scripture which the Church has receiv'd from GOD from JESUS CHRIST and from the Apostles which she always keeps as coming from that Source which she puts into the Hands of all the Faithful Methought this Doctrin truly Holy and Apostolical wrought the Effect it ought to work But there is said I one Word more 'T is what I said to Mr. Claude and I reduce it now to this most plain Argument which every one may equally understand I mean the Learned as the Ignorant and the private Person as the Pastor The baptiz'd Christian before he reads the holy Scripture can either make this Act of Faith I believe that this Word is inspir'd by GOD as I believe that GOD is or he cannot If he cannot he then doubts of it he is reduc'd to examin whether the Gospel is not a Fable But if he can make it by what means shall he do it The Holy Ghost shall put it in his Heart This is no Answer for it is agreed That Faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost The Question is concerning the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses and there can be no other but the Churches Authority Thus every Christian receives from the Church without examining this Scripture as a Writing inspir'd by GOD. Let us go a little farther Does the Church only give us the Holy Scripture in Paper the Bark of the Word the Body of the Letter No without doubt she gives us the Spirit that is the Sense of the Scripture For to give us the Scripture without the Sense is to give us a Body without a Soul a Letter which kills The Scripture without its lawful Interpretation the Scripture destitute of its natural Sense is a Knife to cut our Throats The Arian cut his Throat by the Scripture misunderstood so did the Nestorian so did the Pelagian GOD forbid then That the Church should give us only the Scripture without giving us the Sense of it She receiv'd them both together When she
receiv'd the Gospel of St. Matthew and the Epistle to the Romans and the rest she understood them This Sense which she receiv'd with the Scripture she has kept with the Scripture and the same exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us receive the Holy Scripture he uses also to give us its true Sense All this comes from the same Principle all this is the Sequel of the same Design As then there is nothing to examin after the Church when she gives us the Holy Scripture so there is nothing to examin when she interprets it and proposes its true Sense Wherefore you see that after the Councel of Jerusalem Paul and Silas said not Examin this Decree but they taught the Church to observe what the Apostles had judg'd In this manner has the Church always proceeded I would not believe the Gospel says St. Augustin were I not mov'd by the Authority of the Catholic Church Ep. 5. Cont. Manich. And a little after Those whom I believ'd when they said to me Believe the Gospel shall I not believe when they bid me not believe Manicheus This Society of Pastors establisht by JESUS CHRIST and continu'd until now giving me the Gospel has also told me That I must detest Hereticks and evil Doctrins I believe both together and by the same Authority After this manner were Christians instructed in the primitive Times Tertull. praescrip adv haeret 18. 37. in which Hereticks were told That they were not receivable to dispute of the Scripture because without Scripture they could be shewn that Scripture is not for them that there is nothing common between them and Scripture And observe if you please That all Christian Societies except the Churches newly reform'd have kept this manner of Instructing Mr. Claude and I said That the Greek Church the Ethiopian the Armenian and others were deceiv'd indeed in believing themselves the true Church but all at least believe That there is nothing to examin after the true Church There is no other manner of teaching the Faithful If we tell them That they may understand the Holy Scripture better than all the rest of the Church together we nourish Pride we take away Docility None says it but the Churches which call themselves Reformed Every where else they say as we do That there is a true Church which must be believ'd without examining after her This is believ'd not only in the true Church but also in those which imitate the true Church The Pretended Reformed is the only Church which says it not If the true Church which soever she is says it the Pretended Reformed is not then the true Church because she says it not Let them not tell us The Ethiopian says it the Greek says it the Armenian says it the Roman says it which shall I believe If your Doubt consisted in choosing between the Roman and the Greek 't would be necessary to enter into this Examen But now 't is agreed in your Religion That the Greek Church the Ethiopian Church and the rest are in the wrong against the Roman and if they were true Churches you ought in leaving the Roman which as you say was not to have sought Communion with them They are not then the true Church No more are you For the true Church believes That we must believe without examining what the true Church teaches You teach the contrary You call your selves the true Church and you say at the same time That one must examin after you Which is to say That one may be damn'd in believing you You renounce then from that time the Advantage of the true Church You are not the true Church You must be left 'T is here the Beginning must be If any one in leaving you be tempted to unite himself to the Greek Church he shall be answer'd Mademoiselle de Duras having heard these things nothing seem'd to me capable to trouble her but the Habit contracted from her Infancy and the fear of afflicting her Mother for whom I knew she had all the Tenderness and all the Respect that such a Mother deserves I also saw she was concern'd for the Reproaches that were made her of having human Designs and especially of having delay'd the doubting of her Religion till after a Donation made her by her Mother Your own Conscience said I to her best knows in what Condition you were when this Donation was made you whether you had any Doubt and supprest it in prospect of procuring your self this Advantage I did not so much as think of it answer'd she You know well then said I to her That this Motive has not any part in what you do Continue therefore in Peace provide for your Salvation and let Men talk For this Apprehension of having human Respects imputed to you is it self a sort of human Respect and that of the most delicate and most to be fear'd She requested me to repeat in Mr. Coton's Presence what had been said through a Desire she had that he should be Instructed with her He was sent for we agreed on the Facts Mr. Coton with an extream Sweetness made me some Objections about the Doctrin I had explicated I answer'd them He told me he was not exercis'd in Dispute nor vers'd in these Matters He said true he refer'd himself to Mr. Claude I pray'd GOD to enlighten him and departed to return to my Duty After another Conference which Mademoiselle de Duras and I had at St. Germain in the Dutches of Richelieu's Apartment she told me That she believ'd her self in condition to take her Resolution within a little while and that there was nothing more to do But to pray GOD to conduct her well The Success was such as we wisht On the 22. of March I return'd to Paris to receive her Abjuration She made it in the Church of the Reverend Fathers of the Christian Doctrin The Exhortation I made her tended only to represent to her That she was returning into the Church which her Fathers had forsaken That she would not henceforth believe her self more capable than the Church more illuminated than the Church and fuller of the Holy Ghost than the Church That she would receive from the Church without examining the true Sense of the Scripture as she receiv'd from her the Scripture it self That she was henceforth going to build upon the Rock and that her Faith must fructify in good Works She felt the Consolation of the Holy Ghost and the Assistance was edify'd by her good Example The End of the Conference REFLEXIONS ON A Writing OF M r. CLAUDE'S REFLEXIONS On a WRITING of M R. CLAUDE ' S. YOU have seen in the Advertisement which is at the Beginning of this Book That after Mr. Claude had read my Recital he made an Answer to the Instruction I had given Mademoiselle de Daras joyning to it a Relation of our Conference which he had drawn up as he affirms in that Writing the next day after ouâ— Meeting
Reformation have not been able to change the necessary Condition of Humaniâ—â— which for the hindring Divisions and quieting Mens Minâ—â— requires a final Decision independent of all new Examination either General or Particular The Christian Church is not exempt from this Law and the more regular she is the more her Constitution dependâ— on an entire Submission of Mind the more need she has of such an Authority Wherefore from the very beginning of Christianity GOD himself has put into the Hearts of all true Christians That they must no longer search nor examin after the Church has determin'd This inviolable Tradition has wrought its Effect in our Reformed maugre their Principles Nor do I wonder at it Reâ— de 〈◊〉 S. 29. St. Basil very wisely and very truly said That Tradition made men speak more than they would and inspir'd into them things contrary to their Sentiments And if our Reformed will not ow to Tradition this last and final Resolution and this Submission so solemnly sworn 't is then Necessity and Experience that has forc't them to it 't is because there must an End be put to the Doubts and Examinations of private persons by an absolute Authority if they will have Peace and uphold Humility 't is that if they neither have nor exercise this Authority they must make a shew of having and exercising it and at least give the Idea of it 't is in a word because one may indeed discourse and answer Arguments by Words but the natural Ignorance Infirmity and Pride of Mans Mind requires other Remedies The Second REFLEXION On one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Judgment of the Church I Pretended to shew is the Conference That by denying the Churches infallible Authority one falls into these two Inconveniences and I said not into one of the two but inevitably into both of them The first is That every particular person how ignorant soever he may be is oblig'd to believe That he may understand GODs Word better than the most universal Synods and all the rest of the Church together The second That there is a time when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in condition to make an Act of Faith upon the Holy Scripture but that whether he will or no he shall find himself oblig'd to doubt whether it be inspir'd by GOD. I have not seen any of the Pretended Reformed in whom these two Propositions have not caus'd an horror and who has not told me he should be so far from ever believing them himself that he should detest those which did Let us see then how it continues fixt by the Conference that they are Consequences of the Pretended Reformeds Doctrin and such manifest Consequences that they are own'd by the Ministers And indeed not to depart from Mr. Claude's Relation he himself asserts in it That after all Ecclesiastical Assemblies every particular Person ought to 〈◊〉 whether they have well understood GODs Word or no When he had spoken of human Interests which often is he said 〈◊〉 the Truth in the most authentical and most universal Assemblies of the Church For to destroy this Answer and shew that 't was in the bottom nothing but a Civil I 〈◊〉 him whether all passing in Order and without the appearance of any human Interest in the Deliberation every private Person must not yet examin He acknowledg'd he must and 〈◊〉 it still in his own Relation maintaining That there is not any Absurdity nor any Pride in a private Persons 〈◊〉 that he may understand GODs Word better than all Ecclesiastical Assemblies what good Order soever is kept in them and of whatsoever Persons they 〈◊〉 be 〈…〉 This Proposition and Doctrin will appear 〈◊〉 to every docible Spirit But to the end the thing may be 〈…〉 let us make Application of this Doctrin in a particular Example The Calvinistical Church since these 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 years from her first beginning to be establisht has not held any Assembly more 〈…〉 more 〈◊〉 than the Synoâ— of Dâ—rt Besides all the Churches of the 〈…〉 all the rest of the same Belief that of England that of 〈◊〉 those of the 〈◊〉 those of 〈◊〉 those of Switzerland that of 〈◊〉 and the â—est of the German Language were there by their Deputies and receiv'd it and to the end nothing might be wanting to it if the 〈…〉 Churches of this Realm were hindred from 〈…〉 at it they adopted all its Doctrin in the National Synod of 〈◊〉 1631. where all the Articles of 〈…〉 and sworn to by the whole Synod and afterwards by all-the Provinces and all the particular Churches Since that time none of the Pretended Reformed 〈◊〉 this Synod The 〈◊〉 alone who were there 〈…〉 blame is Doctrin and relate the Cabals and the Share Policy and the Interests of the House of 〈◊〉 had in it All also have yielded and if there be any thing that can be said 〈◊〉 have been receiv'd with an unanimous Confeâ—â— by all the Churches of the Pretended Reformation 't is without doubt the 〈◊〉 of this Synod And nevertheless I will 〈…〉 Whether any private Person whatever of his Church may rely upon an Authority so great amongst them as this is without examining any farther if he be press'd to Answer positively Yea or No to so precise a Question and in a Fact so well circumstantiated he must say No and that in fine notwithstanding all this they were but men how able how illummated how holy soever they are imagin'd still subject to fail whose Sentiments if one should follow blindfold and without examining he would equal men to GOD. Thus according to the Maxims of the new Reformation every private Person even to the most ignorant women ought to believe that they can understand the holy Scripture better than an Assembly compos'd of whatever is greatest in that whole Church which he acknowledges to be the only one where GOD is purely serv'd and not only better than this Assembly but than all the rest of the Church and than all that he knows in the whole Universe This is what Mr. Claude has acknowledg'd to me This is in Substance what he still says in his own Relation and this is what every Minister whether he will or no shall own in a Conference in the presence of any one that shall desire it unless he obstinately resolves not to answer positively In which case he will be seen to shuffle and this Tergiversation will be stronger than an Acknowledgment since 't will not only shew that the Acknowledgment is inevitable but 't will also make appear that he is sensible of its pernicious Consequences And what I say of the Synod of Dort Mr. Claude and every other Minister will be forc'd to say of the Council of Nice of the Council of Constantinople of that of Ephesus of that of Chalcedon and the rest which they and we receive with common accord And when they shall say it
they will say nothing new or unusual in their Religion Calvin said it in formal terms when speaking in general of all the Councils of the precedent Ages 4. Instit c. 9. he writ these words I pretend not in this place that all the Councils must be condemn'd and all their Decrees vacated Nevertheless proceeded he you will object to me that I so order them as to permit every one indifferently to receive or reject what the Councils should have establisht by no means that 's none of my Intent You would say â—he were very far from it The Majesty of Councils and the Authority of so great a Name moves him at first but the Consequence of his Doctrin makes him soon forget what he seem'd willing to say to their advantage For see how he concludes When says he the Authority of a Council is alledg'd I desire first it be consider'd in what time and for what cause it was assembled and what Persons assisted at it afterwards that the principal Point be examin'd according to the Rule of the Scripture so that the Councils Definition have its weight and be as a Prejudice but that it hinder not the Examination This is what all this careful Enquiry after Time Matter and Persons in fine terminates in to wit That at what Time soever a Council is held what Matter soever is there treated and or what Persons soever 't is compos'd every one indifferently for that was the Question should examin the principal Point by GODs Word and believe he can understand that Divine Word better than all the Councils See how far these Gentlemen pâ—sh the Examen They drive it yet much farther since they will have one examin after the Apostles This is not a Consequence which I draw from their Doctrin 'T is their own very Proposition and Doctrin in formal Terms and particularly that of M r. Claude For upon what I saith in the Exposition Exp. Arâ— 19. that after the Council of Jerusalem Act. XV. v. 18. and the Decision of the Apostles where they said It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us nowe had any thing more to examin and that in effect Paâ—l and Barnabas with Silas as 't is written in the Acts Act. XVI v. 4. went through the Churches teaching them not to examin what the Apostles had done but to keep the Decrees they had ordain'd Because I concluded thence That they gave the Form to all following Ages and taught us how in all times the Faithful ought to submit to the Churches Decisions without examining after several Answers but all frivolous they were fain at last to answer me clearly That one ought yet to examin after the Council of the Apostles 'T is the 〈◊〉 't is the first that answer'd the Exposition who writ in these terms We do not see that the Apostles publisht their Decision with an absolute Order it should ' be obey'd but they sent Paul Barnabas and Silaâ— for to instruct the Faithful to keep this Ordinance that is evidently to perswade them the Motives and Grounds of it which says not that they were forbid to examâ—â— This is what the Anonymus says The Place is remarkable you will find it in the Nineteenth Article of the first Answer in the fourth and last Observation he makes on the Council of the Apostles Page the 328 th This is not a particular Sentiment of this Authors since there is plac'd in the Front of his Book the Approbation of four Ministers of Charenton of which Mr. Claude is one to the end he may not say I charge him with a strange Doctrin in imputing to him that of this Anoâ—â—mus Thus 't is not the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles 't is the Faithful the Christian Churches that ought to examin after the Apostles and after the Apostles assembled and after they have pronounc'd It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us And this prodigious Doctrin is taught in a Church which vauâ—â—â— of hearing nothing but the pure Words of the Apostles See whither the Ministers and the Pretended Reformed and particularly Mr. Claude are forc'd by their Belief to carry the necessity of the Examen There was nothing left but to say we must yet examin after JESVS CHRIST and that with all his Miracles and all the Authority given him by his Father he had not enough to oblige men to follow him on his Word and without examining Mr. Claude said it in our Conference and says it again in his Relation I desire the prudent Reader to believe that in a Matter of this importance I will neither impose upon him nor exaggerate Let him follow me only with attention and he shall see the Truth plainly appear You have seen how I objected in the Conference That unless there were acknowledg'd a living and speaking Authority to which every particular Person is oblig'd to submit without examining private Persons would be brought to the Presumption of believing they could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils together and than all the rest of the Church To prove that in this there was not any thing so presumptuous or absurd Mr. Claude answer'd me that in the time when JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth the Case had hapned when a private Person ought to raise his own Judgment above that of the Synagogue assembled which condemn'd JESUS CHRIST That this was so far from being a Sentiment of Pride that 't was the Act of a perfect Faith This Answer I confess struck an Horror in me For to make it good one must say That in the time when the Synagogue judg'd JESUS CHRIST and he himself was on the Earth there was not upon Earth any living and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit without examining So that one ought to examin after JESUS CHRIST it not being permitted to believe him on his Word I made this Answer to Mr. Claude and shew'd him That they were then so far from a necessity of every ones determining himself by a particular Examen and setting himself above every living and speaking Authority that there was at that time one the greatest which ever was or could be to wit That of JESUS CHRIST and of the Truth it self to whom the Father publickly bare Witness by a Voice from Heaven by the greatest and most visible Miracles that were ever wrought and in fine by the most resplendent as well as the most certain Means the Divine Omnipotence could make use of If I observe in the Conference there was no Answer to this Argument 't is very apparent that in effect there ought to be none Mr. Claude nevertheless in his Relation says he answer'd me That JESUS CHRISTs Miracles made one of the Matters in Question That there were false Miracles which Moses in Deuteronomy advis'd the Israelites to take heed of That the Synagogue had judg'd JESUS CHRISTs Miracles to be done in the Name of Beelzeâ—ub That in fine an Authority
decides nothing till it be first receiv'd and that JESVS CHRIST's was not so as yet since 't was in dispute whether they should receive it or reject it I am oblig'd to observe That assuredly I heard nothing of all this in the Conference and you will soon see that it were indeed better to be silent than to say such things But since Mr. Claude will have said them he must then also say that because JESUS CHRISTs Miracles were rejected as deceitful Signs by the Envious by the Obstinate in one word by the declar'd Enemies of the Truth These Miracles were not convincing enough to oblige Men to believe JESUS CHRIST on his Word without examining farther and that for Example after he had rais'd Lazarus in express Testimony John xi v. 42. That GOD had sent him those who beheld with their Eyes so great a Miracle were I do not say permitted but expresly oblig'd to examin whether JESVS CHRIST was sent by GOD. He must I say carry the necessity of the Examen to this excess Otherwise 't will be true as I have said That there was then a visible and palpable Authority to which every one ought to submit without examining so that there was never any time when Men were less expos'd to the Temptation of Pride by elevating themselves above all living and speaking Authority since JESVS CHRIST the most living and most speaking as well as the greatest and most infallible that ever was was then on the Earth and that they preferr'd not themselves before the Synagogue but by submitting to JESVS CHRIST whose Miracles as himself said took away all Excuse from those John xv v. 22 23 24. that believ'd not in him Which the Assembly that condemn'd him knew so well that they found no other Answer to his Miracles nor any other Means to resist him but to make him away and with him Lazarus also John xi v. 47. xii v. 10. to stifle if they could at once with the Miracles they had seen the Memory of him that wrought them They must not then here think to dazle People with frivolous Answers and make the Readers lose the Consequence of an Argument by bringing in unprofitable Questions I mean That 't is to no Purpose to start up here the Question concerning deceitful Signs nor to answer That the Synagogue doubted of the Truth of JESVS CHRIST's Miracles The Question is only to know whether this Doubt was not the Effect of an evident Malice and in fine whether it be not certain amongst Christians That there was in JESVS CHRIST's Miracles so full a Demonstration of the Divine Power and so clear a Confirmation of JESVS CHRIST's Mission that every reasonable Spirit was oblig'd to yield without any farther Examination so that there was then a living and speaking Authority to which there was nothing to be oppos'd but a gross Ignorance and a manifest Obstinacy This is the matter in Debate and if after this Explication of the Question they think still to escape by saying with Mr. Claude That JESUS CHRIST's Authority was not receiv'd they must go farther John viii v. 13. and say to JESUS CHRIST himself with the Jews Thou bearest Record of thy self thy Record is not true Then we will answer with JESUS CHRIST John viii v. 13 14 16 18. John v. v. 36. Thô I bear Record of my self yet my Record is true And again I am not alone but my Father that sent me bears also Witness of me And again The Works which the Father hath given me to finish the same Works that I do bear Witness of me that the Father hath sent me And in fine C. xv v. 22 24. They have no Cloak for their Sin If I had not done among them the Works which none other Man did they had not had Sin but now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father The meaning of this is That the Miracles are clear the Authority is incontestable and the Resistance can have no other Ground but a blind Hatred I expect they will yet answer me That JESUS CHRIST added after all this John v. v. 39. Search the Scriptures they are they which testify of me and that they will dare to conclude from thence how one might and ought to examine after JESUS CHRIST so that the Word he pronounc'd shews us not a superabundance of Conviction in the Scripture but an insufficiency of Authority in the Person of JESUS CHRIST If they make yet this Objection we have nothing to do but to hold our Peace and leave JESUS CHRIST to defend his own Cause In the mean time we will conclude That 't is JESUS CHRISTs Authority which we revere in his Church If we say the Church must be believ'd without examining 't is because JESUS CHRIST who teaches and guides her is above all Examen We will not forbear to say also in imitation of JESUS CHRIST Search the Scriptures We shall confound them by this Scripture which they say they believe and we shall see them also faint under this Examination but it shall be after we have forc'd them to acknowledge that we must submit without examining to the Churches Authority in which that Spirit whom JESUS CHRIST has sent to keep his place always speaks There is then nothing less to the Purpose than the Example of the Synagogue and our Pretended Reformed depriv'd of this Example which was their chiefest Strength continue alone to believe themselves every one in particular capable to understand the holy Scripture better than whatsoever in the Universe has Authority to interpret it and to judge of Doctrin and than all the Faithful that appear to them in the Worl'd Which is the Error of the Independents or something worse They will say That this private Person who examins after the Church shall always be well assur'd not to be alone in his Sentiment since there will always remain some secret elected one who will think as he does As if without refuting this Vision it were not a Pride detestable enough to set himself alone above all that is seen and heard to speak in the whole Church besides They will say again 'T is no Pride to believe ones self enlightned by the Holy Ghost But on the contrary 't is the height of Pride That particular Persons should dare to believe the Holy Ghost will instruct them and leave in Error all the Faithful that appear in the rest of the Church Nor is it to any purpose to answer as Mr. Claude does in his Relation John iii. v. 8. in his Relation That the Spirit bloweth where he will For they must shew that this Spirit which reposes on the Humble ceases not to breath on those who believe themselves alone more capable to understand the Scripture than all the rest of the Church since they examin after her and not only to breath upon them but himself also to inspire into them this proud Thought But in fine
as open'd the Book He forms not then his Faith by the reading of the Scripture this Reading finds his Faith already form'd this Reading does but confirm to a Christian all he already believ'd and all he had already found in the Churches Belief He believ'd then before all things that the Church deceiv'd him not and by this he began to make the Acts of a Christian Children are not instructed in any other manner When they hear their Parents 't is the Church they hear for our Parents are our Teachers only as they are Children of the Church 'T is for this reason the Holy Ghost sends us to them Ask thy Father and he will shew thee thy Elders and they will tell thee St. Basil Ep. 29. so great a Divine justifies himself and at the same time confounds the Hereticks by alledging to them the Faith of his Mother and of his Grandmother St. Macrina and he herein imitates St. Paul who praises Timothy for having an unfeigned Faith 2 Tim. 1. 5. which dwelt first in his Grandmother Lois and his Mother Eunice The meaning is that true Doctrin ought always to descend from hand to hand and that there shall always be a true Church to which none can ever shew her beginning nor find in her State those Marks of Interruption and Novelty which all other Sects bear on their Front Christian Parents joyn'd to this Church joyn their Children to her and put them at the feet of her Ministers to be there instructed 'T is not to be imagin'd that Children in whom Reason begins to appear because they know not how to rank their Discourses are incapable of resenting the Impressions of Truth They are seen learn to speak in an Age yet more infirm in what manner they learn by what they make the Distinction between the Noun and the Verb the Substantive and the Adjective neither themselves know nor can we who have learnt by this Method well explicate so deep and hidden it is We learn almost in the same manner the Churches Language A secret Light guides us in both these States in the one 't is Reason in the other Faith Reason discovers it self by little and little and so does Faith infus'd by Baptism We must have Motives to fix us to the Churches Authority GOD knows them and we know them in general in what manner he ranks them how he makes these innocent Souls perceive them is the Secret of his Holy Spirit However 't is certain that this is done and by this he begins As this is the first Christian Act we make and as on this Foundation all is built so it subsists for ever The time will come when we shall know more distinctly why we believe and the Churches Authority will from day to day become stronger in our minds The Scripture it self will fortify the Chains which bind us to her but we must always have Recourse to the Original that is to believe on the Churches Authority What Age soever we are at 't is by this we begin to believe the Scripture we continue also on the same Foundation and St. Augustin was already perfect in the Ecclesiastical Science Cont. Ep. Fudam 5. when he said He would not believe the Gospel if the Authority of the Catholick Church did not oblige him to it I could were it in dispute shew the same Opinion in the other Fathers We must always re-ascend to the first Principle and this is the first Principle that fixes us to the Church Let them not reproach to us this Vicious Circle The Church makes us believe the Scripture the Scripture makes us believe the Church This on both sides is true in different Respects The Church and the Scripture are so made for one another and do so perfectly suit with one another that they support each other like Stones in an Arch which mutually keep up the Building All Nature is full of such Examples I bear the Staff on which I lean the Flesh binds and covers the Bones which sustain it and all things in the whole Universe mutually aid one another So it is with the Church and the Scripture There was but one Church such as JESVS CHRIST founded to which such a Scripture as we have could be address'd that is such an one as durst promise the Church in which this Scripture was made an eternal continuance If any one receives the Scripture by the Scripture I will prove to him the Church if he acknowledges the Church by the Church I will prove to him the Scripture but since we must begin on one side I have clearly enough shewn by Mr. Claude's Confession that if we begin not by the Church the Divinity of the Scripture and the Faith we ought to have in it is in Danger Wherefore the Holy Ghost begins our Instruction by fixing us to the Church I believe the Catholick Church Amongst our Adversaries one must examin before he believes and he must before all things examin the Scripture by which he examins all the rest 'T is not enough to have read some particular Verses some Chapters some Books till such time as one has read all conferr'd all examin'd all Faith continues in suspense since 't is by this Examen that 't is form'd Amongst the true Christians one believes at first Thy Faith hath saved thee saith JESVS CHRIST Thy Faith Tertul. de Praescrip 14. observes Tertullian in that divine work of Prescriptions and not thy being verst in the Scriptures There 's no need of passing through Opinions through Doubts through the Uncertainties of human Faith I never chang'd says St. Basil What I believ'd from my Infancy Ep. 79. has only been strengthned in my following years Without passing from one Opinion to another I have only perfected what was at first given me by my Parents As a Grain which is sown of little that it was becomes big but continues always the same in it self and without changing its Nature takes only Increase so is may Faith increas'd and this is not a Change in which one passes from worse to better but an Accomplishment of a Work already begun and the Confirmation of Faith by knowledge In this manner we pass not as amongst our Reformed from a State of doubt to a State of Certainty or as Mr. Claude loves better to speak from an human Faith to a divine Divine Faith is declar'd at first by the Churches first Instructions and this could never be did not her infallible Authority prevent all our Doubts and all Examination 'T is thus Cont. ep Man 4. as says St. Augustin 't is thus I say That those believe who not being able to arrive at Vnderstanding secure their Salvation by the simplicity of their Faith If we must always examin before we believe we must begin by examining whether there is a GOD and hearkning for some time with a kind of Suspension of Mind to the Arguments of the Wicked That is we must pass to the Belief
Mr. Claude shall publish his Relation 't will appear that the little he says naturally requires all that I recite So it is that the Pretended Reformed were averr'd in establishing their Church to have done contrary to what the Orthodox ever did and precisely what all 〈◊〉 have done and Mr. Claude press'd upon this matter cannot in all the History of Christianity shew one only Church truly Christian founded as the Churches of the new Reformation It may now be judg'd what likelihood there is that what all Hereticks have done contrary to the Practice of all the Orthodox can ever be authoriz'd by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue But since Mr. Claude places the strength of his Defence in this Example I desire him to add to the evident Facts I alledg'd to him 〈◊〉 this Subject these short Reflections that thô JESVS CHRIST authoriz'd of himself had no need of any Succession to make himself believ'd nevertheless to inculcate to us how necessary 't is for the true Religion to have a Succession always manifest he would at his coming into the World find there a Church actually subsisting in its whole State that he was born and liv'd in this Church actually subsisting that is in the Synagogue and would so form his Church in the midst of her that even the holy Apostles after his Asâ—â—â—sion and the Coming down of the Holy Ghost persisted publickly in the Service of the Temple which was than the most 〈◊〉 Mark of Communion that they were not indeed seen whatever might be ordain'd against them to have ever withdrawn from it as long as the Temple was in being and the Synagogue could keep either its exterior Form or even any appearance of its ancient State that GOD who would in fine have his Children entirely separated from the Jews had first extinguisht in this ungrateful People by a manifest Reprobation with the Sacrifice and Priesthood all the Marks of the Church so that 't is apparent the Synagogue with its Temple fell to ruin before the Children of GOD departed from it that he was then so far from leaving any hope to this People as he had done in the ancient Transmigration and Ruin of the first Temple that he had on the contrary given all the Marks of an implacable Anger that to the end such a Fall of his heretofore chosen People and the Divorce declar'd to the Synagogue formerly his Spouse might not give the least Pretext of suspecting any like Event in time to come he had caus'd this future Fall and Divorce to be foretold by all his Prophets as a singular Example of his wrath and had at the same time protested that no such thing should ever befal that Church with which he made an eternal Covenant that besides all this and thô the Reprobation of the Synagogue was clearly explicated in the Scripture and thô the Apostles without making any Innovation in the Doctrin did but follow him who had til their time been always without any Interruption expected nevertheless because there was in this Action some Rupture with the Synagogue heretofore the true Church to authorize them in it there was no less requir'd than JESVS CHRIST himself present on the earth with all the Authority of his eternal Father and in a word to dissent from the Sentiments of the Synagogue thô besides convinc'd by the Scriptures 't was necessary that JESVS CHRIST the Corner Stone in whom all was to be united should appear visibly on the earth with the incontestable Marks of his Mission I leave you now to consider whether an Example of this Nature can give any occasion of ever separating from the Church of JESVS CHRIST or of saying that this Church founded on the Rock must fall or that the Succession of which JESVS CHRIST is the Source could suffer any Interruption and whether all does not here rather cry out against such an Attempt The Ninth REFLECTION On the Visibility of the Church that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it HItherto we have seen what concerns the Conference and Mr. Claude's manner of relating it We must now consider what he opposes against the Instructions that preceded it He answers them largely in the writing Vid. Sup. Advert Ref. p. 57. we have already mention'd This writing has no Title and is made in the Form of a Letter To make our selves better understood let us give it a Name and call it Mr. Claude's Manuscript Answer As you have seen that the Conference was on my part preceded by two Instructions Vid. Sub. p. 2. the first of which establisht the perpetual Visibility of the Church Vid. Sup. p. 16. and the second clear'd some Objections taken from the Book of the Kings Mr. Claude has follow'd this Division He divides also his Answer into two parts the first is subdivided into four questions In the first he treats of the Universal Church which the Creed speaks of and blames me for not having comprehended in it with all the Blessed Spirits the Saints which shall be born even to the end of the World In the second he examins whether the Church can be defin'd by her exterior Communion as he supposes I have done He speaks in the third of the Churches perpetual Visibility and seeks in the fourth to what Church JESVS CHRISTs Promises belong whether to that I have setled or to that he has establisht He draws afterwards eleven Consequences from the Doctrin he has explicated and passes to the second Part the Objections taken from the Book of the Kings This is the Idea of his work 'T is in these four Questions and these eleven Consequences that he attack's with all his might the Doctrin I have taught concerning the perpetual Visibility of the Church but you are going to see that he could not do it till he had first fram'd himself a false Idea of it To shew that the Church spoken of in the Creed ought to be always visible I said that all Christians by the Name Church understood a Society Vid. Sup. p. 2. seq making Profession to believe the Doctrin of JESVS CHRIST â—nd given it self by his Word whence it follows that 't is visible and linkt by an exterior and sensible Communion Thus I at first laid down my Position being what I had to make good 'T was not my intention as Mr. Claude supposes neither was there any need to give a perfect Definition of the Church nor to prove her interior Union by the Holy Ghost by Faith by Charity for of this we are agreed The question then being only about the exterior Marks of this Union I had done all in shewing that these exterior Marks are inseparable from the Church and consequently that she is always visible In the mean time on my having said that by the word Church is understood a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrin
of JESVS CHRIST Mr. Claude in all his Manuscript Answer but principally in the second and fourth Question will perswade me that I consider the Church as a Society meerly exterior constituted in its Essence by a single Profession of believing without believing indeed whose whole Nature and Essence consists in bare Exteriors and Appearances without reality whose Vnity is only an Vnity of Profession an exterior Vnity so that the interior is only in it by Accident and that thô there should be neither Faithful nor Just in it but that it should be wholly compos'd of Hypocrites it would not cease to be the true Church Behold indeed a frightful Idea of the Church and I wonder not that Mr. Claude has an horror of it it is also as far from my Mind and the Mind of all Catholicks as Heaven is from Hell and I know not how Mr. Claude could read my Instructions without seeing in them the clean contrary to what he imposes on me Since the Reader has now these Instructions before his Eyes I desire him to pass them over again in this Impression Vid. Sup. p. 6. He will find there indeed that 't is of the Essence of the Church to be visible by Preaching and by the Sacraments but he will find there also that the Elect and the Saints are the most noble Part of it that they are there sanctify'd that they are there regenerated often also by the ministery of the Reprobate ◠that they must not be consider'd as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of it He will find there Ibid. that 't is of the Essence of the Church because she is holy to teach always constantly and without varying an holy Doctrin but he will find that this holy Doctrin which she incessantly teaches continually brings forth Saints in her Vnity and that by this Doctrin she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD. Do they call this a bare Profession of JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin without reality and a meet Heap of Hypocrites He will find Sup. p. 7. seq that Hell cannot prevail against the visible and exterior Society of the Church but he will find also that 't is because it cannot prevail against the Elect who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church 'T is I say because it cannot prevail against the Elect that it cannot prevail against the Church which teaches them in which they confess the Gospel and receive the Sacraments Thus instead of believing that this Church which subsists eternally can according to our Principles subsist without the Elect 't is on the contrary seen that we consider the Elect as making the most essential Part and Strength of this Church He will find that 't is of the Essence of the Church till the general Resurrection Sup. p. 9 10. to have the Ecclesiastical Ministery which renders her visible but he will find also that the effect of this Ministery is to bring the Children of GOD to the perfect Stature of JESVS CHRIST that is to Perfection which after it has rendred them holy will render them glorious both in Body and Soul In fine he will find there the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST Sup. p. 11. and of the Faithful amongst themselves the interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us but at the same time the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church Whence I concluded Ibid. that 't is not only the Society of the Predestinate which shall subsist for ever but that 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which 〈◊〉 them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever 'T is seen by this that instead of making a Church whose Communion is of its own nature meerly exterior and interior only by Accident the Foundation of the Church is on the contrary the interior Communion of which the exterior Communion is the Mark and that the Effect of this Mark is to shew that the Children of GOD are kept and inclos'd under this Seal 'T is seen also that the Elect are the last End for which all is done in the Church and those whom all her Ministery ought principally to serve so that they make the most essential Part and as I may say the very Ground of the Church If then I have spoken more of the exterior Communion than of the interior Communion of the Church 't is plainly seen that this can be only for the Reason I have mention'd to wit that the Pretended Reformed being agreed with us that the Foundation as I may say of the Church is her interior Union I needed only establish the exterior the necessity of which these Gentlemen contest Thus when I said at first in my Instruction that the Church was the Society which confess'd the true Faith Mr. Claude ought to have understood that this Confession of the Mouth excluded not the Belief of the Heart but rather suppos'd it in the Living and essential part of the Church of which I spake not then because it was not the Question I had to propose and resolve To conclude from this Silence that I admitted no other Union essential to the Body of the Church but this exterior Union is the same as if one that should have undertaken to explain only those exterior Ligaments which keep human Bodies united on the outside and include as I may say in one and the same Continent with the living Members the Nails the Hair the peccant Humors and even the dead Members not yet cut off from the Body should be therefore made believe that he acknowledges no other Principle of Union and under this Pretence it should be said of him that according to this mans Principles there might be an human Body which should be only Hair Nails rotten Members and peccant Humors without having any thing living in effect This is what Mr. Claude does when he concludes from my Discourse that the Church of JESVS CHRIST may be only an Amass of wicked persons and Hypocrites But this will appear farther in what follows by Mr. 〈◊〉 own Principles 't is sufficient for me in this place to shew him that this Church meerly exterior which he call the Church of the Cardinals Bellarmin and du Perron and of M. de Candom is a Church that subsists only in his imagination and one may believe by his manner of judging my Sentiments that he no better understood those of these illustrious Cardinals The Tenth REFLEXION On the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies
not this Difficulty TO shew Vid. Sup. p. 2 3. seq that the Word Church signifies in the Creed a visible Church I laid for a Foundation that in a Confession of Faith such as this Creed was Words were us'd in their most natural and most simple Signification and I added that the word Church signify'd so naturally the visible Church that the Pretended Reformed Authors of the Chimera of an invisible Church in all their Confession of Faith never us'd the Word Church in this Sense but only to express the visible Church cloath'd with the Sacraments with the word and with all the publick Ministery See the Passages of the Confession of Faith I have related with the Consequences I have drawn from them I was not the first who made this Remark 't was a National Synod of the Pretended Reformed These Gentlemen who had so much preacht the invisible Church and who being press'd upon the Succession grounded on this foundation the invisible Succession of which they made use wondred they had not spoken one single word of it in their Confession of Faith where on the contrary the word Church is always taken for the Visible Church Surpriz'd with this Language so natural to Christians but so little conformable to the Principles of their Reformation they made this Decree in the Year 1603. Syn. de Gap sur la Conf. de Foy art 3. in the Synod of Gap in the Chapter which has for its Title On the Confession of Faith 'T is by this all the Synods begin and the first thing that is done in them is to review this Confession of Faith which gave occasion to the Printers to re-imprint it with this Title Syn. de Privas 1612. forbidden in the Synods The Confession of Faith of the Reformed Churches review'd and corrected in the National Synod But let us come to the Decree of Gap of which these are the words The Provinces shall be exhorted to consider in the Provincial Synods in what Terms the XXV Article of the Confession of Faith ought to be coucht forasmuch as being to express what we believe touching the Catholick Church of which mention is made in the Creed there is nothing in the said Confession that can be taken but for the militant and visible Church as also in the XXIX Article they shall see whether it be fit to adde the Word Pure to the Word the Church which is in the said Article and in general all shall come prepar'd on the matters of the Church We have related the Substance of this XXV Article You may in the same place see the XXVI Vid. Sup. p. 3. XXVII and XXVIII Articles And for the XXIX Article it says that the true Church ought to be govern'd according to the Policy which our Lord JESUS CHRIST has establisht that is that there be Pastors Overseers and Deacons to the end the pure Doctrin may have its Course and the Assemblies be kept in the Name of GOD. The Addition of the word pure Church which they deliberated to add to that of true is founded on a Doctrin of the Pretended Reformed which says that a true Church may not be pure because with the essential Truths it may have Errors mixt I say even gross and considerable Errors against the Faith And this is one of the Mysteries of the new Reformation which Mr. Claude will explain to us by and by but 't is not here in question What there is important is that these People who say they are sent of GOD to raise again the pure Doctrin of the Gospel being to explicate as themselves declare in their Confession of Faith the Church of which mention is made in the Creed spake nevertheless only of the militant and visible Church I could easily tell you the Reason 't is that this Church of which mention is made in the Creed is indeed the visible Church 't is that the word Church naturally imports this Visibility and the word Catholick is so far from derogating from it that it supposes it 't is that in a Confession of Faith one often happens to speak rather according to the natural Ideas the words bear with them than according to the Refinements and Interpretations one has invented to free himself out of some Difficulty Thus the invisible Church presented not it self at all to our Reformed when they fram'd their Confession of Faith the sense of the visible Church appear'd only in it there was nothing seen in this but natural till the Year 1603. In 1603 they awoke they began to find it strange that a Church which founded her Succession in the Idea of an invisible Church and of a Church of the Predestinate should not have said one word of it in her Confession of Faith but have left it for evident that the Natural Signification of the word Church always imported a visible Society so that to speak truly the Succession of the Church would no longer be shewn without shewing the Succession of her Visibility a thing utterly impossible for the new Reformation 'T was this inclin'd the whole Synod to desire the going again over this Article and to exhort the Provinces to come ready prepar'd upon the matters of the Church which had never been well understood amongst the new Reformed which are not yet understood and which will make all those Catholicks that can throughly understand them But the going over this Article again was a very nice Affair 'T was to awaken all understandings 't was too visibly to mark the Defect and give the Printers more occasion than ever to entitle it The Confession review'd and corrected Thus in the Synod of Rochel held in 1607 't was resolved not to add or diminish any thing in the XXV and XXIX Articles nor to meddle afresh with the matter of the Church By the decision of this Synod the visible Church alone appears in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith the invisible Church has no part in it and one draws from it Consequences as one can That Vid. Sup. p. 4. which I draw pinches them for if the Church appears only as visible in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith and if besides they assert this Confession of Faith as conformable in all points to the Scripture they must tell us that this manner of explicating the Church comes from the Scripture and that from the Scripture it has pass'd naturally into the ordinary Language of Christians into the Confessions of Faith and consequently into the Creed which is not only the best authoriz'd of all Confessions of Faith but also the most simple Mr. Claude answers us Man Anf. q. 1. that the Custom changes and that by Process of time Words often depart from their first and natural Signification and that besides thô it should be true as I have said that the word Church taken simply should signify the visible Church the word Vniversal would change this Signification But he shall not escape us by this
Subterfuge for we have still an Argument left to overturn the whole pretended Reformation See it taken from the very Principles laid by themselves The word Church ought to be taken in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith as it is naturally taken in a Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion else this Confession of Faith would not be conformable as it pretends to the Holy Scripture Now in this Confession of Faith the word Church is taken for a visible Society this Proposition is acknowledg'd in the Synod of Gap as we just now saw 'T is thus then that the word Church is naturally taken in Holy Scripture and in the Creed for a visible Church and the Term Catholick or Vniversal put in the Creed Man Ans q. 1. as Mr. Claude confesses to distinguish the whole Body of the Church truly Christian spread over the whole Earth from all false Churches and all particular Churches instead of rendring the Church invisible makes her so much the more visible as it more visibly separates her from all false Churches and puts in her Bosom all the particular Churches so visible and so remarkable by their common Profession of Faith and their common Government The Eleventh REFLEXION On Mr. Claude's own acknowledging the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister BUT without disputing any farther we need only 〈◊〉 to Mr. Claude and 〈◊〉 what he grants us in his Manuscript Answer concerning the Churches perpetual Visibility And would to GOD I could here transcribe all this Work There would be seen in it many things very favourable to our Doctrin which I cannot well make understood till it shall be publick But 't is not for me to publish it and I am contend to transcribe at length forasmuch as it is necessary the Passages you are going to see such as I found them in the Duke of Chevreuses Manuscript own'd as I have said by Mr. Claude himself Now if he 〈◊〉 found to speak of the Church after a manner new in the 〈…〉 this mâ—st not be wondred at for two Reasons The first because 't is true he has taught in a manner the same Doctrin in his other 〈◊〉 thâ— he has 〈◊〉 explicated it more fully and 〈◊〉 order thâ—â—â— over The second because he pretends to say nothing new a 〈◊〉 we ought to rejoyce at there being nothing more desirable 〈◊〉 to see the Number of the Principles and Articles on which we may agree increase Let us enter then with all our heart into this 〈◊〉 Design let us 〈◊〉 in what Mr. Claude agrees with us and let us reâ—â—â—â— his Doctrin in the 〈◊〉 Order thâ—â— he 〈◊〉 it in his third and fourth Question and afterwards in his eleven Consequences What I find at first is that 't is manifest that thâ— the 〈◊〉 Church be mixt with the 〈◊〉 ends and 〈◊〉 Confession 〈◊〉 ceases not to be visible in the mixture as the good 〈◊〉 with the Three in one and the 〈◊〉 Fields and as the good 〈◊〉 with the 〈◊〉 in one and the same 〈◊〉 This goes well let no proceed This Mixture hinders indeed the just Discernment of Persons but it hinders not the Discernment or Distinction of the Orders of Persons even with certainty We know not certainly who are in particular true Believers nor who are Hypocrites but we know certainly that there are true Believers as there are Hypocrites which is sufficient to make the Visibility of the true Church I hear this with joy assuredly we shall advance Mr. Claude gives it us already for manifest that there shall be always a visible Body of which one may say There are the true Believers I continue to read his Answer and I find that he blames me for imputing to the Pretended Reformed that they believe not the Body in which GOD has plac'd according to St. Paul some Apostles some Teachers some Pastors and the rest to be the Church of JESVS CHRIST How glad am I to be reprehended provided we advance It is then manifest that the Body of JESVS CHRIST which is his Church shall always be compos'd of Pastors of Teachers of Preachers and also of People it is then consequently always very visible and the Succession of the Pastors as well as that of the People ought to be manifest in it Mr. Claude confirms here his Discourse by a passage of Mr. Mestresat who determins that we must not seek the Church of GOD out of the Ministery and the Word So much the better and I am glad that Mr. Claude finds in his Church many Followers of this Doctrin I was afraid Vid. Sup. p. 5. that the Ministers would not find the visible Church in this Passage of St. Paul to the Ephesians where the Church is propos'd to us without Spot and without Blemish and I had set my self to prove that this Church describ'd by St. Paul was the visible Church because it was washt by Baptism and by the Wordâ— Mr. Claude enters at first into my Sentiment He says that in this passage we must understand indeed the Church which is already in Heaven but also the visible Church whichis on the earth as making together but one and the same Body and he cites here also Mr. Mestresat I receive this Doctrin and if any of our Reformed be it Mr. Claude himself ever objects to me that I must not so much rely on the Churches Visibility since there is at least a Part of this Church which is invisible that is to say that which is in Heaven I will answer that this ought not to trouble us since that in fine by this Doctrin of Mr. Mestresat and Mr. Claude being in communion with the visible Part of the Church I am sure to be so also with the invisible Part which is already in Heaven with JESVS CHRIST so that 't is very certain that all is reduc'd in fine to the Visibility Mr. Claude passes thence to the Objections that may be made and he decides at first that the Visibility of the Church is a Visibility of Ministery He must then at last as he acknowledges in the Church a perpetual Visibility come to shew us a Succession in the Ministery and in one word a Train of lawful Pastors He objects to himself that the Ministery is common to the Good and the Bad whence it seems one might conclude against his Doctrin that Good and Bad compose the Church And he Answers that if the use the Ministery is common to Good and Bad this is only by accident and thrô the Fraud of the Enemy that of right it belongs only to the true Believers and that the supernatural Destination is only for them All this is clear except this Expression the Ministery of right belongs only to the true Believers For as one might understand by this that none but true Believers are lawfull Pastors one might fall into the Inconvenience of being to examin every one in particular whether the Pastors are indeed true Believers
and to believe that they cease to be Pastors when they cease to be good People thô without Scandal this is the pernicious Doctrin of Wicleff which would put all the Church in Confusion Excepting this ill Sense which cannot be Mr. Claude's I grant him all he says for without doubt 't is not JESVS CHRISTs first Intent that there should be Ministers that are Deceivers this happens only thrô the Malice of the Enemy The Destinction of the Ministery is for true Believers JESVS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites who doubts it But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church to be lawful Pastors in it and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixt Ministery he must then without examining whether the Ministers are good or evil shew us a Succession of them always manifest under which GOD has conserv'd his People The more I continue my Reading the more I find this Truth evidently declar'd For entring into the fourth Question I take good notice that Mr. Claude pretends there to shew that the Passages where JESVS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth regard only the Society of true Believers but he forbears not always equally to own that this Church never ceases to be visible and that JESVS CHRIST has so promis'd I pretended to shew the visible Church in these words Vid. Sup. 7 8. seq Mat. xvi v. 18. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it The Reasons I made use of to prove it may be seen Mr. Claude receives this Doctrin with its Proofs And he acknowledges that the Church which is spoken of in this Passage is in effect a confessing Church a Church which publishes the Faith a Church to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministery a Church which uses the Ministery of the Keys and which binds and looses and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility 'T is such a Church that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd to keep always on the earth Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministery which is essential to her which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me Vid. Sup. p. 9 10. c. that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection and to grant without difficulty that this Promise of JESVS CHRIST I will be always with you respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery Mat. xxviii v. 9. 20. JESVS CHRIST promises says he to be with the Church to baptize with her and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD There shall then always be Teachers with whom JESVS CHRIST shall teach and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church But shall this Ministery last for ever so pure that none but good People shall be admitted to it We have seen that Mr. Claude pretends it not In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity the Promise is that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be JESVS CHRIST will always act always baptize and ALWAYS TEACH with them and the Effect of this Ministery thô mixt shall be such that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible not indeed says Mr. Claude with a distinct view which goes so far as to say Such and such are 〈…〉 which it notwithstanding CERTAIN and which goes so 〈…〉 say The true 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 IN THAT EXTERIOR PROFESSION Let us not call if they will by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession let us abstain from this Name since Mr. Claude is against it and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians let us endeavour to agree on the thing This exterior Profession which may be always 〈◊〉 and as I may say pointed to with the Finger is mixt of Good and Evil the Ministery which governs it is also mixt Mr. Claude agrees all this it may nevertheless be said Under this Ministery and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers This is what we just now heard from the same Ministers Mouth If then according to his Doctrin the Society of true Believers subsists for ever and continues always visible on the earth if it may always be shewn in an exterior Profession and is visible only there as Mr. Claude says it not only follows that true Believers shall always be upon the earth but that this Profession mixt of Good and Bad where there true Believers are found where they are pointed to where they are markt shall be there also this is what we agree on with Mr. Claude But since all these Passages are dispers'd up and down his Answer see here one in which he has taken care to collect all together 'T is after his fourth Question and in the seventh Consequence that this Minister endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith where it is said that in our days and before the Reformation the State of the Church was interrupted distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church which is never interrupted according to his Principles and thâ—s he defines the Church The Church says he is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of true Holiness under a Ministery which fâ—â—nishes her with the Alments necessary for the spiritual Life without depriving her of any of them We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude that the Church always subsist and always subsists visible since by his Definition she is nothing 〈◊〉 but the true Believers who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministery Behold an immoveable Foundation Let us see what we can build on it but before we build we are going to see the Objections fall The Twelfth REFLEXION Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his own Doctrin MR. Claude objects to me first Man Aus that I desire in vain to establish my Society compos'd of Good and Bad and its eternal Duration on these inviolable Promises of JESVS CHRIST Thou art Peter and I am always with you 'T is not says he of the Wicked that it can be said that Hall shall not prevail against them 'T is not with Wicked men and Hypocrites that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd always to be and these Promises respect none but true Believers Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles that if these Promises respect only true Believers they respect them at least in this Ministery and in this exterior Profession and the Objection will be at the same time resolv'd For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shewn and always visible according to Mr. Claude in this
exterior Profession in which the Good are mixt with the Bad it follows that this Composition by what Name soever it is call'd shall always appear on the earth Now none can be assur'd of a Societies subsisting always and always in a visible State unless GOD has promis'd it His Promises regard then even this Mixture and not only the true Believers but with them all the Society in which they ought according to his Decrees always to appear By Consequence we must understand these Promises of JESVS CHRIST otherwise than Mr. Claude teaches The Promises of JESVS CHRIST respect not the Wicked alone nor were made for their sake if he said only this he would have Reason but these Promises which JESVS CHRIST made to his Faithful comprehend also the Wicked who are mixt with them When GOD by his Prophets promis'd the ancient People to give then plentiful Harvesh with the Corn he promis'd also the Chaff and to preserve the Harvest is to preserve the Chaff with the Corn. So to promise the Church and her eternal Duration into promise with the Elect the Wicked in the midst of whom GOD encloses them The wicked also in the Church are for the Just as the Chaff in the Harvest is for the Corn and as GOD promises not the Chaff either alone or for it self so he promises not the wicked either alone or for themselves But nevertheless all this Composition shall subsist in vertue of the divine Promise till the last separation when the Wicked as the Chaff shall be cast into the Fire that shall never be quench In the mean time JESVS CHRIST shall be always with the whole Composition keeping there in all the Exterior the sound Doctrin which he knows how to carry into the Interior even into the Hearts of those that live in the same manner as the Nourishment presented to our whole Body by the same way quickens only the Members which are dispos'd to receive it A second Objection of Mr. Claude's will fall by the same Principle He objects to me Man Ans 1. q. that in defining the Catholick Church mention'd in the Creed I speak only of the Church which is actually on earth instead of comprehending in it all the Elect which have been are and shall be and in fine with the holy Angels all the heavenly Jerusalem I have already answer'd him that I neither would nor was oblig'd to define the Church but in relation to our Subject and her Visibility But I add that in saying this according to Mr. Claude's own Principles I said all for according to him in the exterior Profession that is in what renders the Church visible may be markt the true Believers with whom all the Saints in what time and place soever they may be not excepting the holy Angels are united The Church which is on the Earth says Mr. Claude is one with that which is already gather'd in Heaven and with that which GOD will cause to spring up even to the end of the Generations all which three together make but one which is call'd the Vniversal Church GOD be prais'd when I shall have found the exterior Profession which renders the Church visible Mr. Claude has already told us that I shall have found the true Believers that is according to him the true Church actually present on earth and he now tells us that with this Church I shall by the same means have found both that which is already in Heaven and that which GOD will cause to grow up in all following Ages We need then only enquire after the Church which is on the earth and the exterior Profession which shews her to us being assur'd to have found there without enquiring any farther the Perfect Communion of Saints and the Society of all the Elect. Besides when under the Name of the Catholick Church I understood the Church which is upon the Earth I spake with all the Fathers They ordinarily joyn to the Title of Catholick Church that of spread over all the earth toto orbe diffusa To this Title of Catholick they joyn also the Title of Apostolick and thus is it put in the Nicene Creed where is seen the most authentical as well as the most perfect Interpretation of the Apostles Creed This Title of Apostolick makes part of the Churches Catholicity and shews us among other things that she is descended from the Apostles by the perpetual Succession of her Pastors and by the Episcopal Chairs establisht over all the earth All the Saints whose blessed Souls are with GOD were conceiv'd in this Church all those that are to come shall likewise be regenerated in it so that there shall never be any one who has not made an essential Part of this Body of which JESVS CHRIST is the Head For the Angels if we respect only the direct Signification of the Words they never made Part of this Church founded by the Apostles and spread over all the earth where she ought to make her Pilgrimage and thô JESVS CHRIST is their Head he is in a more particular manner that of the Faithful washt in his Blood and renew'd by his Word But the Angels thô united to JESVS CHRIST in another manner are our Brethren and are not Strangers to the Catholick Church of which on the contrary they are establisht after their manner Co-opperators and Ministers 'T is an evident Truth but with which I had nothing to do in this place 't is sufficient to remark in the Creed what our Fathers found there expresly and immediately signify'd by the word Catholick Church by adding to it the Title Apostolick so natural to her Catholicity and the Elegium of being spread over all the earth To know the Doctrin of thâ—â— Church is to know the Doctrin of all the Elect. There is seen in Heaven and in the Brightness of the Saints only what is believ'd in this Church and the Holy Angels who as the Apostle Saint Paul says Eph. iii. v. 10. have learnt by the Church such high Secrets of the Divine Wisdom respect her Beller Thus all being reduc'd as I have already said to the Visibility Mr. Claude will only make me lose Time and digress when he will have me treat here any thing else to make known this Catholick Church which is confess'd in the Creed The Thirteenth and last REFLEXION Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church I Have now nothing left to do but to exhort the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion and Mr. Claude himself if he will permit me to draw manifest Consequences from the Principles he has laid then they will no longer be able to resist the Truth and will remain convinc'd that there is no Salvation for them but in returning to the bosom of the Roman Church We have seen that Vid. Sup. XI Ref. p. 99. seq to verify the Promises of the Gospel Mr.
Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds lâ—st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto theâ— as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring