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church_n believe_v catholic_n creed_n 5,499 5 10.3356 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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enemy_n to_o christianity_n acknowledge_v but_o beside_o their_o testimony_n which_o be_v from_o adversary_n be_v u●●y_a cogent_n we_o have_v the_o tradition_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n in_o all_o age_n and_o most_o place_n of_o the_o world_n for_o 1600_o year_n and_o upward_o and_o as_o he_o that_o will_v go_v up_o by_o the_o side_n of_o the_o river_n will_v at_o last_o come_v to_o the_o head_n and_o fountain_n of_o it_o so_o he_o that_o shall_v ascend_v through_o the_o several_a century_n of_o the_o church_n will_v at_o last_o infallible_o come_v to_o the_o head_n of_o it_o christ_n jesus_n to_o the_o place_n of_o his_o nativity_n his_o preach_a and_o mighty_a work_n that_o he_o do_v his_o bitter_a death_n and_o bloody_a passion_n or_o if_o he_o shall_v descend_v from_o christ_n through_o the_o same_o century_n down_o to_o this_o present_a time_n he_o may_v be_v far_o more_o certain_a of_o the_o birth_n and_o life_n and_o work_n and_o suffering_n of_o this_o our_o bessed_a 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persuade_v that_o shism_n and_o heresy_n be_v the_o necessary_a consequent_n of_o man_n invade_v the_o ministry_n without_o regular_a ordination_n but_o for_o my_o better_a satisfaction_n i_o pray_v you_o let_v i_o understand_v the_o reason_n that_o make_v against_o this_o independent_a practice_n firm._n my_o reason_n be_v these_o drawn_z first_o from_o plain_a scripture_n as_o jerem._n 14.14_o and_o 23.21_o where_o there_o be_v a_o complaint_n against_o those_o prophet_n that_o prophesy_v lie_n in_o god_n name_n and_o he_o send_v they_o not_o and_o again_o the_o same_o prophet_n i_o have_v not_o send_v these_o prophet_n and_o yet_o they_o run_v i_o have_v not_o speak_v unto_o they_o and_o yet_o they_o prophesy_v therefore_o they_o shall_v not_o profit_v these_o people_n at_o all_o neither_o be_v this_o send_v and_o call_v a_o necessary_a requisite_a only_a under_o the_o law_n but_o also_o in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o gospel_n the_o first_o that_o be_v ever_o call_v and_o send_v to_o 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order_n be_v observe_v in_o civil_a affair_n but_o in_o the_o great_a concern_v of_o the_o church_n there_o shall_v b●_n nothing_o but_o confusion_n if_o these_o man_n may_v be_v suffer_v to_o act_v according_a to_o their_o irrational_a and_o extravagant_a fancy_n dub._n it_o be_v most_o apparent_a that_o their_o action_n be_v against_o scripture_n the_o practice_n of_o the_o cartholick_a church_n and_o the_o dictate_v of_o reason_n which_o no_o christian_a no_o sober_a man_n will_v contradict_v therefore_o let_v we_o leave_v this_o headless_a faction_n and_o discourse_n about_o presbytery_n which_o have_v the_o most_o plausible_a reason_n for_o its_o nonconformity_n to_o our_o church_n of_o any_o other_o that_o do_v separate_v from_o we_o dialogue_n vii_o against_o presbytery_n firm._n the_o first_o step_n you_o make_v out_o of_o our_o church_n as_o i_o have_v hear_v be_v unto_o presbytery_n i_o desire_v to_o know_v the_o reason_n why_o you_o leave_v our_o communion_n and_o make_v choice_n of_o they_o dub._n i_o confess_v the_o first_o step_n i_o make_v out_o of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v into_o the_o tent_n of_o presbytery_n thence_o to_o the_o independent_o and_o so_o to_o the_o anabaptist_n and_o at_o last_o i_o become_v little_o better_a than_o a_o atheist_n as_o i_o before_o have_v declare_v thus_o unhappy_a man_n as_o i_o be_v be_v out_o of_o the_o true_a church_n i_o be_v like_o noah_n dove_n out_o of_o the_o ark_n flutter_v over_o the_o flood_n of_o error_n and_o boisterous_a wave_n of_o shism●_n faction_n and_o heresy_n find_v no_o firm_a land_n for_o the_o sole_a of_o my_o foot_n to_o rest_v upon_o firm._n this_o be_v not_o your_o case_n alone_o but_o of_o many_o ●n_n un●table_a soul_n th●t_v in_o those_o la●e_a time_n of_o rebellion_n &_o confusion_n eph._n 4._o have_v be_v blow_v about_o with_o every_o wind_n of_o doctri●e_n by_o the_o sleight_n of_o man_n jesuit_n priest_n and_o socintan_n and_o their_o cunning_a craftiness_n whereby_o they_o hau●_n lie_v in_o wait_n to_o deceive_v a_o ●●ence_n it_o be_v th●t_v the_o prophet_n david_n curse_n fall_v he●vy_a upon_o they_o for_o they_o have_v fall_v from_o one_o wickedness_n to_o another_o from_o one_o wicked_a opinion_n to_o a_o s●●ond_n a_o three_o etc._n etc._n till_o at_o length_n they_o have_v turn_v seeker_n sceptic_n atheist_n and_o scoffer_n at_o all_o religion_n dub._n this_o be_v once_o my_o condition_n but_o praise_v be_v the_o lord_n who_o have_v bring_v my_o foot_n out_o of_o the_o snare_n i_o have_v by_o his_o blessing_n shake_v off_o all_o those_o wild_a and_o groundless_a fancy_n and_o be_o more_o than_o half_o persuade_v that_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v one_o of_o the_o mo●t_a orthodox_n apostolical_a church_n under_o the_o cope_n of_o heaven_n however_o for_o my_o better_a confirmation_n let_v i_o hear_v your_o answer_n to_o those_o exception_n which_o the_o presbyterian_o have_v urge_v against_o her_o government_n by_o arch-bishop_n bishop_n dean_n and_o chapter_n her_o lyturgie_n her_o set_a form_n of_o prayer_n her_o ceremony_n her_o receive_a person_n of_o scandalous_a life_n and_o gross_o ignorant_a in_o the_o principle_n of_o religion_n to_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ._n these_o be_v the_o great_a scandal_n at_o which_o i_o sometime_o stumble_v and_o fall_v from_o the_o communion_n of_o the_o church_n into_o the_o congregation_n of_o our_o classical_a brethren_n firm._n i_o shall_v mos●_n willing_o give_v in_o my_o answer_n to_o those_o exception_n in_o that_o order_n you_o have_v rank_v they_o therefore_o in_o the_o first_o place_n let_v i_o hear_v what_o you_o can_v object_v against_o our_o bishop_n dub._n i_o have_v be_v tell_v they_o be_v antchristian_n not_o hear_v of_o in_o the_o primitive_a time_n such_o plant_n as_o our_o heavenly_a father_n have_v not_o plant_v and_o therefore_o to_o be_v root_v
tender_a conscience_n and_o the_o occasion_n of_o many_o sh●rp_a contention_n among_o christian_n agree_v in_o the_o substantial_o of_o religion_n and_o see_v that_o conformist_n themselves_o confess_v they_o not_o to_o be_v in_o their_o own_o nature_n necessary_a but_o only_o expedient_a for_o order_n and_o decency_n be_v it_o not_o better_o they_o be_v lay_v aside_o then_o continue_v be_v they_o be_v the_o perpetual_a cause_n of_o discord_n and_o dissension_n among_o we_o firm._n and_o be_v order_n decency_n and_o uniformity_n without_o which_o there_o will_v be_v neither_o ●ove_n peace_n or_o unity_n su●h_v inconsiderable_a nothing_o that_o a_o few_o innocent_a ceremony_n must_v be_v utter_o abollish_v to_o gratify_v the_o dogmatize_v humour_n of_o those_o man_n who_o esteem_v thing_n in_o themselves_o indifferent_a to_o be_v sinful_a and_o unlawful_a which_o be_v s●●t_a superstition_n it_o be_v indeed_o much_o to_o be_v lament_v that_o we_o shall_v quarrel_v about_o mint_n and_o cummin_n to_o the_o prejudice_n of_o more_o weighty_a and_o material_a duty_n and_o the_o scandal_n of_o our_o religion_n but_o by_o reason_n of_o our_o innate_a and_o acquit_v corruption_n it_o be_v necessary_a that_o offence_n shall_v come_v yet_o woe_n be_v unto_o that_o man_n by_o who_o they_o come_v i_o know_v weakness_n and_o renderness_n of_o conscience_n be_v much_o pretend_v and_o we_o ought_v to_o take_v heed_n how_o we_o offend_v any_o of_o christ_n little_a one_o but_o how_o can_v these_o man_n be_v reckon_v in_o the_o number_n of_o weak_a or_o little_a one_o who_o seem_v to_o themselves_o so_o great_a so_o strong_a and_o able_a in_o the_o thing_n of_o religion_n and_o for_o their_o tenderness_n of_o conscience_n we_o appeal_v to_o their_o bloody_a civil_a war_n it_o be_v well_o know_v by_o who_o and_o how_o they_o be_v begin_v and_o carry●d_v on_o till_o at_o length_n they_o come_v up_o to_o the_o death_n of_o the_o king_n though_o i_o believe_v very_o much_o against_o the_o intention_n and_o design_n of_o the_o most_o grave_a and_o sober_a man_n of_o that_o party_n dub._n but_o real_o sir_n be_v it_o not_o more_o beseem_v christian_a prudence_n so_o far_o to_o condescend_v to_o our_o dissent_v brethren_n who_o agree_v with_o we_o in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o our_o church_n in_o take_v away_o at_o least_o some_o of_o those_o ceremony_n which_o be_v more_o liable_a to_o exception_n then_o to_o comply_v with_o the_o superstitious_a papist_n in_o the_o use_n of_o they_o firm._n i_o confess_v some_o moderate_a man_n have_v think_v so_o especial_o since_o we_o be_v frustrate_v of_o of_o one_o main_a end_n for_o which_o our_o first_o reformer_n retain_v they_o which_o be_v to_o draw_v over_o the_o papist_n into_o the_o communion_n of_o our_o church_n which_o they_o do_v adhere_v unto_o for_o the_o ten_o first_o year_n of_o queen_n elizabeth_n until_o they_o be_v interdict_v by_o the_o pope_n bull_n but_o see_v we_o be_v deprive_v of_o all_o hope_n of_o that_o much_o desire_a issue_n and_o that_o by_o the_o cunning_a of_o priest_n and_o jesuit_n stir_v up_o and_o animate_v the_o conformist_n and_o nonconformist_n against_o each_o other_o about_o these_o ceremony_n our_o difference_n among_o ourselves_o do_v daily_o increase_v and_o multiply_v some_o wise_a and_o peaceable_a man_n have_v desire_v that_o the_o use_n of_o certain_a of_o those_o ceremony_n may_v be_v forbear_v at_o least_o for_o a_o time_n which_o not_o withstand_v they_o be_v still_o continue_v these_o peaceable_a man_n abhor_v the_o great_a sin_n of_o separation_n &_o do_v continue_v their_o conformity_n to_o the_o rite_n of_o our_o church_n daily_o beg_v at_o the_o throne_n of_o grace_n that_o the_o god_n of_o truth_n and_o peace_n will_v for_o his_o mercy_n ●ake_v so_o assist_v those_o power_n which_o he_o have_v ordain_v that_o they_o may_v be_v instrumental_a for_o the_o establish_n of_o truth_n and_o peace_n among_o we_o dub._n i_o like_v well_o of_o the_o temper_n of_o these_o man_n and_o wish_v that_o their_o moderation_n be_v not_o only_o know_v unto_o but_o practise_v by_o all_o man_n for_o certain_o if_o the_o spirit_n of_o love_n peace_n and_o meekness_n do_v rule_n more_o in_o our_o peevish_a and_o froward_a heart_n we_o shall_v enjoy_v a_o great_a measure_n of_o peace_n love_n and_o christian_a charity_n than_o these_o angry_a time_n have_v hither_o to_o be_v happy_a with_o i_o return_v you_o my_o hearty_a thanks_o for_o that_o satisfaction_n which_o you_o have_v give_v i_o in_o those_o scruple_n which_o have_v much_o trouble_v i_o about_o the_o government_n liturgy_n and_o ceremony_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n there_o be_v yet_o one_o thing_n behind_o at_o which_o i_o have_v somewhat_o be_v scandallize_v it_o be_v this_o your_o church_n do_v receive_v person_n who_o be_v notorious_o profane_a in_o their_o life_n and_o gross_o ignorant_a in_o the_o principl_n of_o religion_n to_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n beside_o she_o tolerate_v at_o least_o minister_n that_o be_v scandalous_a in_o their_o conversation_n frequenter_n of_o alehouse_n not_o at_o all_o serious_a in_o religion_n show_v little_a sense_n of_o it_o in_o their_o discourse_n preach_v or_o practice_n man_n of_o little_a conscience_n and_o of_o as_o little_a learning_n firm._n this_o accusation_n be_v most_o false_o whether_o it_o spring_v from_o spite_n or_o malice_n or_o extreme_a ignorance_n i_o know_v not_o sure_o i_o be_o our_o church_n order_n that_o no_o su●h_a person_n be_v admit_v to_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n th●t_v no_o such_o minister_n be_v permit_v to_o officiate_v that_o they_o be_v to_o be_v suspend_v once_o and_o again_o and_o if_o they_o do_v no_o not_o reform_v they_o be_v to_o be_v deprive_v for_o the_o first_o you_o may_v see_v the_o rubric_n before_o the_o communion_n and_o the_o 26._o canon_n for_o the_o second_o see_v artic_a 26._o and_o canon_n the_o 74._o and_o 75._o and_o canon_n 10._o make_v 1640._o which_o be_v so_o clear_a against_o the_o admit_v of_o profane_a person_n to_o to_o the_o communion_n or_o tollerate_v of_o scandalous_a minister_n without_o due_a punishment_n that_o whosoever_o charge_v these_o abuse_n upon_o our_o church_n must_v be_v gross_o ignorant_a or_o very_a malicious_a dub._n yet_o we_o see_v that_o such_o profane_a person_n be_v admit_v to_o the_o sacrament_n as_o member_n of_o your_o church_n and_o such_o unworthy_a minister_n be_v allow_v to_o officiate_v firm._n such_o person_n be_v no_o member_n of_o out_o church_n but_o rather_o the_o synagoge_n of_o satan_n and_o that_o minister_n who_o do_v admit_v such_o person_n natorious_o profane_a to_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n be_v a_o great_a nonconformist_a to_o the_o order_n of_o the_o church_n than_o he_o that_o scruple_n at_o a_o surplice_n and_o those_o churchwarden_n who_o neglect_v to_o present_v they_o be_v guilty_a of_o perjury_n and_o aught_o to_o be_v debar_v themselves_o from_o the_o communion_n can._n 26._o dub._n it_o be_v evident_a that_o such_o minister_n be_v not_o punish_v either_o by_o admonition_n suspensition_n or_o deprivation_n firm._n this_o be_v not_o true_a in_o all_o place_n to_o my_o knowledge_n where_o such_o minister_n or_o people_n escape_v unpunished_a it_o be_v most_o by_o the_o fault_n of_o the_o churchwarden_n and_o sides-man_n in_o not_o present_v they_o for_o what_o judge_n either_o ecclesiastical_a or_o civil_a can_v punish_v offence_n that_o be_v not_o bring_v before_o he_o dub._n but_o many_o time_n offence_n and_o scandal_n have_v be_v present_v and_o the_o offender_n not_o punish_v yea_o your_o ecclesiastical_a judge_n be_v more_o severe_a against_o those_o who_o be_v nonconformist_n to_o the_o law_n o●_n the_o church_n ●hen_o against_o those_o that_o be_v nonconformist_n to_o the_o law_n of_o god_n as_o profane_v irreligious_a wretch_n firm._n no_o m●n_z c●n_o excuse_v the_o personal_a abuse_n that_o be_v commit_v in_o any_o court_n civil_a or_o ecclesiastical_a all_o court_n officer_n never_o yet_o be_v nor_o ever_o will_v be_v man_n of_o integrity_n ●nd_v of_o unbiased_a judgement_n no_o question_n that_o many_o abuse_n which_o be_v commit_v by_o the_o officer_n of_o ecclesiastical_a court_n may_v be_v prevent_v if_o the_o bishop_n will_v be_v sometime_o personal_o present_a in_o their_o respective_a consistory_n as_o be_v intimate_v they_o ought_v to_o be_v canon_n 11._o make_v 1640._o if_o we_o must_v separate_v from_o a_o church_n that_o enjoin_v no_o intolerable_a condition_n for_o communion_n with_o she_o because_o of_o some_o personal_a ●aul●s_n of_o those_o who_o be_v entrust_v with_o her_o government_n we_o must_v turn_v seeker_n for_o where_o shall_v we_o find_v a_o church_n who_o officer_n be_v always_o all_o of_o they_o impartial_o just_a and_o upright_o dub._n i_o confess_v there_o be_v no_o good_a reason_n we_o shall_v separate_v from_o a_o church_n