it is agreed by all that beare the name of Christians but onely those particulars about which there is difference Serg. Paul I am also resolued by that which I haue heard from thee heretofore of all that is generally held by all Christians that there is one God which made and gouerneth the whole world who is a spirit incomprehensible and comprehending all things and one Lord Iesus Christ perfect God and perfect Man who dyed for our sinnes c. Tell me therefore onely what particular points of faith are held by the Protestants but contradicted by others Saul The first is that God onely is to be beleeued in and not any man of what title or succession so euer nor yet any company of men called the Church Rom. 3.4 because God only is true and all men are lyers neither doth the Apostles Creed propound any other to beleeued in but God onely Serg. Paul What doe you say that the Church is not to be beleeued in Is it not expressely said I beleeue in the holy Catholike Church Saul It is indeed said I beleeue the holy Catholike Church but not in it because the Catholike Church that is the Church of God being in all ages and ouer-spreading all parts of the world is an obiect of faith and not of sense forasmuch as by sense and experience wee cannot know this but by faith onely as wee apprehend the Communion of Saints forgiuenesse of sinnes and the life euerlasting Of all which the same is said that of the Catholike Church seeing there is but one Verbe I beleeue after which they all follow So that if hence it might bee gathered that the Church is to bee beleeued in it may likewise be gathered that the remission of sinnes and the refurrection of the body c. are to bee beleeued in which vvere absurd Serg. Paul What is the second particular point Saul The second is that Christ Iesus is our onely Mediator and Aduocate with the Father in Heauen neither is it lawfull to come to the Father by any other but by him and in his name alone and that the Saints departed out of this life know not of our seeking their mediation if wee should craue it Serg. Paul Is the Lord so strict that by him wee are thus restrained from all Mediators in Heauen and yet directeth vs to craue the helpe of others vpon earth to pray for vs Saul It is the voice of Gods own Spirit There is one God 1. Tim. 2.5 and one Mediator betwixt God and Man of whom onely and of none else mention is made sundry times as Ioh. 14. Ioh. 16 Rom. 8. 1 Ioh. 2. As for that direction to craue the prayers of men vpon earth it is that by hauing mutuall help one from another our mutuall loue might increase which cannot be in crauing their mediation in Heauen seeing howsoeuer our loue may increase towards them yet theirs is already fully perfect But to insist vpon nothing else they cannot heare vs as the liuing doe and if they heare it is kept secret from vs neither hath the Lord spoken one word to direct vs to them without which who so seeketh to them may iustly haue the complaint taken vp against him Ier 14.14 Hee runneth before he is sent Serg. Paul What is the third particular point Saul The third is that we are iustified and saued only by faith in Iesus Christ and that our workes euen when we are at the best merit nothing towards our eternall glorification For to this effect speaketh the Lord. Luke 17.10 When yee haue done all that ye can say that yee are vnprofitable seruants And Saint Paul A man is iustified by faith Rom. 3.28 without the workes of the Law Serg. Paul Is not the worke of him that hath faith then of more vertue then his that hath none Is he not Christs member and so Christs vertue his vertue that as in Christs actions so in his there should be merit Saul The workes of the best are of no more vertue to merit because hee is still a seruant and bound in duty to what hee doth whereas merit implyeth doing more then duty requireth And as for Christs vertue communicated vnto him it is sufficient that he is made thus worthy though not his works seeing perfect blessednesse is already fully merited by Christ for him neither is there need of any more merit Serg. Paul Can hee be said to be iustified then that hath no workes but resteth vpon a bare faith Saul No by no meanes for faith which iustifieth worketh by loue is liuely by workes as the bodie by the soule Wherefore Saint Iames writing against such a faith as is without workes Iam. â— 24 saith A man is not iustified by faith onely but by the workes of the Law That is hee is not become iust and righteous in the sight of God that hath a single and bare faith but proueth his faith sound by his workes For that he disputeth not of faith which is the sauing grace wrought in the hearts of the Elect but of a common faith of which euen Deuils are capable is plaine from the Text. For onely that common faith is the faith of which he saith A man is not iustified by faith onely Serg. Paul What is the fourth particular point Saul The fourth is that faith assureth a man without wauering or doubting of the remission of his sinnes and of eternall saluation Rom. 4.20 For such was Abrahams faith Hee doubted not through vnbeliefe but strengthened himself in faith And that faith which is ioyned with wauering in any man is like the waues of the Sea Iam. 1.6 Serg. Paul This is much that man should come to know so farre what the will of God is touching his future estate It may be that some singular man as Abraham or the holy Apostles might surely know by reuelation because they had more then ordinary acquaintance with God but for other beleeuers I cannot see how they should know though they may all hope well Saul There is great reason why any faithfull person should know this because hee hath receiued the Spirit of God 1 Cor. 2.12 which knoweth Gods will euen as the spirit within a man knoweth his minde Serg. Paul But seeing euery man is apt to conceiue the best of himselfe and naturall presumption ofttimes assureth a man of his saluation how shall he know that it is the spirit whereby hee commeth to be thus assured and not his owne partiall fantasie Saul It is a great indignitie to the Lord when as he hath taught vs Rom 8.16 that his Spirit witnesseth with our spirits that we are the children of God to question whether this testimonie can be knowne for wherefore serueth the testimonie of any if it be vnknowne Many indeed doe through their own fault deceiue themselues because being void of the spirit of sanctification they presume But hee that is renued in his mind vnto holinesse can
which I haue begung Treasury of Eccles-expositions and to perfect which will require the whole life and labour of one whole man Many haue written so I grant in this argument as that they exceed this of mine without all compare but some are so large and haue made their bookes to swell to so great volumes as that they are onely for professed Students and not for euery mans memory leyfure or money Some againe are so short and doe so prosecute some points onely as that howsoeuer they be for euery man yet when they are read almost euery man remaineth still vnsatisfied in many things Lastly some are neither too large nor too short but haue written fully methodically and logically yet not so fully but that diuers particulars haue beene omitted the common motiues on both sides haue not beene so throughly weighed the originalls of the many eâ—rours of the Church of Rome and the Apostolike Antiquity of the Reformed Religion hath not beene so declared nor the treatises in the manner of them so fitted to the capacity of the vulgar so as that many read them but for want of capacity and through these defects in the worke are not so much moued Now to supply all these defects and to instruct all euen my most vncapable Country-men in euery point and motiue so as that there might be nothing to hinder those that desire to know the truth and to cleaue vnto and obey it I haue written this plaine and short Dialogue And herein I am not so blind but I see to what enuying and hard censuring I expose my selfe but neither credit nor life are any thing to me so that by any meanes I may saue some Onely let mee say thus much in way of Apologie that it is well knowne that I am not malicious against the Romane Catholikes nor out of spite haue thus written or vsed the name of Elymas to disgrace any but wilfull Pontificians who for sinister respects against their knowledge seeke to lead into error not onely common people but noble gouernors that attentiuely hearken to Pauls preaching For the rest let mee intreat you to read me not as an enemy vnlesse I shall therefore bee counted your enemy Gal. 4.16 because I tell you the truth but as one that desireth and prayeth for your saluation and I doubt not but through Gods grace you shall see that which will make you suspect and not so well to like your present estate nor so much to condemne our reformation if not to separate your selues and to come out with vs from amongst them lest ye perish euerlastingly For I professe before God who knoweth all secrets that till I seriously studied vpon these things I was not so resolued that the Pope is the Antichrist nor your tenents and superstitions so damnable but the further I waded into this study the more was I resolued so as that now I make no further doubt of it And therefore my hope is that the like effect may by reading these my meditations bee wrought in others also that the vnstable may be setled and the erring bee brought home into the one sheepfold of Christ before it be too late which God grant vnto you all for his mercies sake Amen A Table of the points of both Religions discussed in this Booke Of the Protestant Religion 1 God onely is to be beleeued in and not the Church Page 2 2 Christ onely is our Mediator and not the Saints departed Page 2 3 Iustification and saluation is by faith onely Page 3 4 Faith assureth of saluation Page 4 5 The soules of the faithfull goe not to Purgatory Page 5 6 Prayers for the dead auaile not Page 6 7 The Sacrament of the Lords Supper is no sacrifice There is no reall presence it ought to be in both kinds Page 6 8 Baptisme doth not quite ake away naturall corruption Page 7 9 The Sacraments of the new Testament are but two onely Page 7 10 There is no perfection of righteousnesse in this life Page 7 11 There is no liberty of will vnto good Page 8 12 Mariage is free for all men Page 8 13 The Scriptures alone are sufficient Page 10 14 None ought to be debarred from reading the Scriptures Page 11 15 The Pope is not supreme head of the Church Page 12 16 God onely is to be called vpon and not the Saints departed Page 14 17 The vse of images in diuine worship is vnlawfull Page 15 18 All prayers ought to be in a knowne tongue Page 17 19 Confession of sinnes is not necessary to any but to God onely Page 17 20 Satisfaction for sinne cannot be made by workes of penance Page 17 21 All sinnes are mort all none veniall Page 18 22 To goe on Pilgimage is a superstition Page 19 23 Extreme vncton ought not now to be Page 19 24 Crossing and holy water are vaine superstitions Page 19 25 Nothing is to be taken from the word for any end Page 20 26 Wilfull pouerty is not warrantable Page 20 27 To vow perpetuall Virginity is vnlawfull page 21 28 Of Holy dayes and fasts vpon their Eeues page 21 29 The Clergy is subiect to the King as well as the laity page 22 30 Superstitions ceremonies in baptizing are anoyded page 23 31 The holy Sâ—â—rament is not to be kept for after-vses page 23 32 The Church of Rome is no true Church because she razeth the foundation page 24 33 The ignorant Papists indangered as well as others page 32 Of Popery 1 Satisfaction for temporall punishments page 25 2 The merit of Saints of the Masse and of workes page 26 3 The saints Mediators page 27 4 Free-will preparing for grace page 28 By these the foundation is razed page 29 5 Vncertainty of faith page 31 6 The Popes supremacy page 37 7 The worshipping of Images page 43 8 The single life of Priests page 47 9 The reall presence page 49 10 Prayers in the Latine tongue page 53 11 Purgatory and praying for the dead page 54 12 Crossing and holy water page 55 13 Freewill page 59 14 Iustification by workes page 60 15 The vncertainty of saluation page 62 16 Satisfaction for sinne page 62 17 Seuen Sacraments page 64 18 Apocryphall Scriptures and traditions c. page 65 AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST POPERY In way of a Dialogue Wherein The Speakers are Saul or Paul Sergius Paulus and Elymas Saul NOble Sir because you are an elect vessell the Lord hath sent mee to publish the true Religion vnto you by the imbracing and right professing whereof you may be saued Sergius Paulus What is that religion Saul It is the Christian Religion taught and maintained in the reformed or Protestant Churches Serg. Paul Wherein standeth this religion Saul The maine points of it concerne either faith or practice in exercising the parts of Gods worship Serg. Paul Concerning faith what doth the Protestant Church hold Saul I will not rehearse all contained in the Symboll or Creed of the Apostles about which
set forth the Articles of our faith Gods holy will and commandements and the doctrine of Prayer and worshipping God which is all necessarie to be knowne vnto saluation so that herein a Christian of ordinarie vnderstanding needeth not to depend vpon the sense of others but immediately vpon the Word of God In places more obscure the best Doctors of the Church haue alwayes differed and therefore euen herein Christian people are not tyed to the sense of any but to that which is most agreeable to the truth plainely set forth in some other place Serg. Paul If all haue iudgement in the sense of Gods Word then it seemeth that none are to bee debarred from reading the Scriptures for feare of falling into errour by so doing whereas it is plaine that ignorant persons are peruerted sometimes by the scriptures themselues 2. Pet. 3.16 For there are many places hard to be vnderstood which the ignorant and vnstable peruert to their owne damnation Saul Nothing can be more against the minde of Christ then to debarre the people from reading and hearing the Scriptures read in a knowne tongue For hee hath bidden Search the Scriptures for therein yee looke to finde eternall life Ioh 5.39 The danger that some fall into hereby is otherwise to bee prouided against viz. by diligent preaching and opening the sense Serg. Paul But is not the Church all in all to Christian people Haue they not the Scriptures from the Church and do they not by the Church come to know that they are the Word of God and therefore howsoeuer the Church shall order the reading and setting forth of the Scriptures is it not to be held to be done very well Saul It is not to bee denied but that as the Woman of Samaria brought the people there to the knowledge of Christ so we are brought by the Church at the first to know the Scriptures to be the Word of God but as the same people said vnto her after that Christ had taught them Ioh 4.42 now we beleeue not because of thy words but because we haue heard him our selues So Christian people receiuing the Word into their hearts doe not beleeue any more because of the Church but because the Word it selfe working vpon their consciences perswadeth them that it is the Word of God And as it gaue the being at the first vnto the Church so the Church is to bee ordered thereby as by the superiour and not to order it as an inferiour Serg. Paul What is the fourteenth particular point Saul The fourteenth point is that Christ onely is the supreme head and foundation of his Church neither hath any one man nor ought to haue superioritie ouer all others in spirituall matters in all Countries and Nations being as it were a common Rocke whereupon all may stay themselues nothing doubting but that cleaning to him they cleaue to Christ 1 Cor. 3 9. and are free from errour For none can lay any other foundation sauing that which is laid Iesus Christ If vpon any other the Church be founded it is not vpon one but vpon all the Apostles alike Ephes 2.20 Gal. 2.9 and the Prophets too if vpon any as more principall they are three Iames Cephas and Iohn who seemed to be Pillars If a power spiritually to rule by opening and shutting binding and loosing be committed to any ouer all others neither is that committed to one Peter but to all the Apostles Ioh. 20 23. For whose sins ye remit saith the Lord they are remitted and whose sinnes yee retaine they are retained and if any one hath rule ouer the world as chiefe it is not Peter Gal. 2 7. but Paul For to Peter was committed the ministerie of the circumcision onely which was but of one Nation to Paul the minister of the vncircumcision which was of all the rest of the world Serg. Paul But of Peter the Lord saith singularly Math. 16.16 Thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church and to thee I giue the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen And follow me and I will make thee a fisher of men And againe Peter louest thou me Ioh. 23. Feed my sheepe By all which it should seemt that howsoeuer others had power of binding and loosing too yet he was preferred as chiefe and aboue all the rest after whom such another should succeed and so another from age to age to the worlds end And this construction seemeth to bee verified by the vninterrupted succession of those Bishops who challenge to be his successors beyond all other Bishops of any other place seeing there is no such sucression else where to be found Saul If Peter had beene appointed ouer all I had beene much to blame to withstand him to his face at Antioch Gal. 2.14 and to goe on in mine office without seeking allowance and aduice from him I doe not therefore acknowledge any chiefly intimated in Peter aboue the other Apostles but that hee should be a most notable instrument of glorifying God and propagating the Gospell wherein hee should exceed the rest being fuller of the power of the Holy Ghost as he was fuller of zeale towards Christ And that last committing of the sheepe and lambs to his feeding singularly was no more then was needfull after his grosse fall by denying his Lord and Master through which hee might for euer haue beene discouraged had not his commission beene againe renued It pleased our good God for his owne glory to deale alike with him and with me both grieuous sinners and blasphemers that where sinne had most abounded zeale and grace might most abound and whereas wee were most darkned through scandall that might hence arise making vs vnfit to be lights of the world to make vs shine by miracles aboue all others that thus no scandall to hinder the Gospell might any more appeare And as for the succession so much gloried in it is no true succession of Apostolicall men but of politicall Princes maintained by the sword and not by the word euen as the successors of Mahomet haue done Of Apostlolike men there hath beene a more true succession at Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch Serg. Paul But if there be no supreame power vpon earth how shall vnity be maintained in the Church seeing diners men will be of diners minds and in case of difference about matter of faith who shall be Iudge to end it if no one man how shall it come to an end or hath the Lord left his Church in such a miserable case as that she must needs broile in contentions without end Saul There was no supreame in the Primitiue Church and yet they are said to haue beens all together with one mind Act. 2.46 the Spirit which is the Author of vnity shall keepe the true Church in vnity though there be no visible head ouer all And as for differences that arise wee haue an exemplary direction to meet in Councell Acts
that buildert onely vpon the foundation Christ should be saued and not demolishers Can you proue the Romane Catholikes to bee demolishers Saul You did not conceiue amisse for this word building is very notable in the text Now that they are not builders but demolishers I make it plaine thus Hee onely buildeth vpon a foundation that erecteth somewhat vpon it though it bee but sleighty weake but if standing vpon this foundation he breaketh in peeces and disanulleth the chiefe materials of the building he buildeth not but demolisheth And thus doth the Roman Churh for bearing herselfe vpon the foundation Christ she teacheth to transgresse Gods Commandements and to proceed contrary to his ordinances which are the chiefe materialls of the spirituall building Serg. Paul Wherein doe they commend transgressing against Gods Lawes and Ordinances Saul In exciting the people to get them images and to bow before them in prayer plainly against the second commandement which they seeing into haue therefore put this commandement out of their Catechismes in appointing the Sacrament of Lords Supper to bee administred to the people in one kind onely against Christs institution in forbidding the people to read the Scriptures and commending ignorance as the mother of deuotion against that expresse charge search the Scriptures in appointing seruice in an vnknowne tongue 1. Cor. 14. being the representation of Babel that by reason of strange tongues could not bee built for so hereby such an vncertaine sound is made as that no edification commeth of it in absoluing subiects from their allegeance to their lawfull Prince in dispensing with treasons murthers periuries and incestuous mariages in maintaining lying vnder the names of equiuocations and mentall reseruations in condemning mariage in some sort of people more then fornication in exempting the Clergie from the power of the ciuill Magistrate and setting vp the Pope aboue all both spirituall and temporall things all which who knoweth not to be flatly against Gods Commandements Serg. Paul Yet there are many things wherein they are builders in that they make many prayers and condemne drunkennesse pride vncleannesse oppression c. and exhort vnto the contrary vertues Saul Those things which haue beene already spoken being so they cannot bee counted builders any more then notorious wicked persons who notwithstanding their praying and some good cutward seeming things in them are said to be destroyers of the Law for so the Prophet complaineth Psal 119.126 It is time for thee Lord to put to thy hand for men destroy thy Law How is this but by transgressing and if simply to transgresse be a destroying of the Law much more to teach and maintaine transgressing and to oppose and destroy such as dare not herein offend God as the Romanists doe by fire and sword Serg. Paul I cannot see how they can defend themselves if these be their courses but that they must come vnder that censure Hee that breaketh the least of these commandements Mat. 5.19 and teacheth others to doe so shall bee counted the least in the Kingdome of Heauen Haue you any thing else against them to proue that they build not but demolish and destroy Saul There is one thing more which may be reckoned a chiefe thing in this building and that is faith For when the foundation Christ is rightly laid it is builded vpon him by faith and loue these in short comprehending the whole edifice so that hee which buildeth these two is indeed a builder and shall be saued though he buildeth withall hay and stubble of curious speculations frothy doctrine or erroneous conceits about points more mysticall as his weake iudgement mis-leadeth him Now loue is the fulfilling of the Law and herein I haue shewed that the Romanists build not but destroy and as I haue shewed touching that so I will further declare to aching faith that they build not by teaching it rightly but destroy by putting true faith downe and bringing in an vnsound and vaine faith Serg. Paul How shall that appeare Saul Very easily For a sound faith is to beleeue stedfastly without doubting in regard of the defects in vs casting our selues vpon Gods mercy in Iesus Christ for saluation because he hath promised and is able to effect it For Abrahams faith which is set forth for an example of a sound faith is thus described He doubted â—â—t Rom. 4.10 neither considered the deadnesse of his owne body c. See the place Rom. 4. But they maintaine that there is no assurance to bee had by faith but onely by hope to the lift moment of our liues and that we cannot but be doubtfull without speciall reuelation in regard of out owne corruptions through which wee may fall away when we haue gone furthest in grace flatly against that which is said to haue beene done by Abraham our patterne Serg. Paul This doth not seeme to be a destroying of faith but humilitie for a mans owne vnworthinesse Saul They pretend humility endeed but wee bee to that humilitie that denyeth the true instrument which only can helpe vs to heauen and taketh a counterfeit in stead of it For they teach that faith is onely to beleeue the things contained in the holy Scriptures and that as the Church beleeueth them without knowing in particular what these things are Iam. 2. or applying them to a mans owne soule in particular Which if it be true faith then the deuill hath true faith for he beleeueth thus and goeth a little further because he vnderstandeth what he beleeueth Serg. Paul Is it not then a sound faith vnlesse it be stedfast oh how vncomfortable is this to many poore soules that cannot attaine to any such certainty Saul It is therefore to be vnderstood that though this be the vertue of a sound faith to assure the soule yet it is often a long time before a beleeuer commeth to this For euen as the impe must stand long in the stocke before it closeth with it and becommeth very fast so this assurance commeth after long experience and continuance in Christ by faith Serg. Paul I am resolued now that this Romish Church greatly erreth and dangerously too but there are many in that Church that know not the depth of these things but onely beleeue a Purgatorie and pray for the dead and beseech the Saints departed to helpe them and vse crossing and Holy Water and receiue the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament as Christs reall body and blood adoring it therefore with many the like superstitions Is there any great danger to them being ignorantly miss-led and doing herein but as they are perswaded they ought to doe Saul There is no lesse danger to them Deut. 13. then vnto their Leaders no more then there was vnto such as were seduced to idolatry For as they also must dye for it without all partialitie so the simply mis-led Papist cannot but expect ruine with this Leader Math. 15.14 For if the blind leade the blind they shall both
Anno 600 saith because we are redcemed wee haue this benefit that when we are taken away from the habitation of our flesh wee are presently earied to beauenly rewards Tertul. de Cor. mil. And the same Tertullian was the first that spake of praying for the dead who also consesseth that if you require Scripture for it you shall find nonc but tradition shall be pretended as the increaser custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer of it Yet it is to bee acknowledged that euen the most approued of the ancient haue prayed for the dead as Augustine for his Mother Monica and Ambrose for Theodosius but doubtingly because without ground in the Word Elymas Then I hope you will yeeld this to be more ancient then your not praying for the dead and your vtter denying of Purgatory as an inuention deriued from the Hâ—â—â—hen Paul Their praying for the dead was not the same vvith yours but either for the augmentation of their glory who were in Heauen as Ambrose hauing said that Theodesius remained in the light and gloried in the company of the Saints yet he prayeth giue perfect rest to thy seruant Theodosius Confes l. 9. c. 13. or to expresse their affection as Augustine who saith of his mother Monica I beleeus that thou hast done what I desire but accept of the voluntaries of my mouth Or if they thought them damned they prayed for a mitigation of their paines or holding that they might all bee kept in one common place till the day of iudgement as Laâ—tantius sheweth de diuin Draem lib. 7. cap. 21. Iren. lib. 5. Thâ—y prayed for the hastening of their Deliuerance They prayed not for soules in Purgatoric neither did they which held Purgatory beleeue that veniall sinnes were there done away and temporall punishments satisfied for till after Anno 1000 as your Church now teacheth and therefore euen these points as you hold them are new and vnthought of by antiquity And seeing no such custome is grounded vpon the Word of God as Tertullian hath confessed our denying thus to pray is more Apostolicall and so more ancient then either yours or theirs Serg. Paul But thus you will make the Church in the time of these holy Fathers to haue beene no true Church and them no true members whom we all yet haue in high esteeme Paul It doth not follow because they erred in one thing in practice through too much affection that they were no Church for it is not any errour that ouerturncth the Church but errours razing the foundation as hath beene before declared Elymas But these holy Fathers vsed the same things about the seruice of God that wee doe as holy Water and Chrisme both to the sicke and to the baptized and Exorcizing and Crossing and honoured the Saints departed with going to visit their Reliques and praying vnto them and commended a Monasticall life and confession to a Priest and workes of penance wherein the very life of our Religion consisteth And therefore if we be no true Church they were no true Church neither Paul Although there were some tincture of these superstitions in the Church in the dayes of the holy Fathers yet there was great difference betwixt them and you herein They vsed the Crosse not for any confidence they had in it but as a signe of their profession as a Aruobius testifieth saying We doe neither worship nor wish crosses And Ambrose speaking of Helena who found the Crosse of Christ faith Arnob. l. 8. Shee found the title and worshipped the King but not the wood Ambros de Obit Theoâ—os For this were a Gentile errour and a venity of the wicked They anointed the sicke at the beginning of their sicknesse in the part grieued to ease them as Gregory Turoneusis saith Hist Franc. l. 6. c. 7. But you to conferre grace at the end of sicknesse when there is no more hope of life They did not pray to the Saints departed as able to heare them but in their soliloquies by way of consabulation through a Prosopopeia For they held that the Saints departed could not heare them witnesse Saint Augustine who to proue that they know not what is done ox said here bringeth in that place of Esai L. de Cura prâ— mont c. 13. 63. Abraham knoweth vs not and 2 King 22. I will gather thee to thy Fathers that thy eyes may not see the ewill to come And they did commonly hold then that all the faithfull departed remained in some secret place out of heauen where they had not the sight of God as Iren. l. 5. Iust Martyr qu. 60. 76. Orig. Hom. 7. in Leuit. Chrys Hom. 38. in 1 Cor. c. And for worship they gaue them none neither Doulia nor Latria For so saith the same Augustine They are to be honoured for imitation not bee worshipped for Religion Aug. de vera relig c. 55. And he vseth the very word expressing Doulia Wee honour the Saints with charitis not with seruice Neither did they vse praying to them in their publique seruice For so also Saint Augustine saith Aug. de Cinit Dei lib. 22. c. 10. The Martyrs are named at our sacrifice as men of God that haue â—uercome the world but they are not called vpon by the Priest that sacrificeth But you pray vnto them in all your Liturgyes and worship them with Doulia And for all other things by you alledged though they haue been anciently vsed yet their beginning is not vnknowne vnto vs. Elym But you haue not yet answered my argument prouing that our case and theirs is all one For admit that there were some little difference yet this cannot conclude against vs as no Church if they were a true Church seeing wee agree together in one kinde of seruice Paul They agreed not with you in errours against the foundation and therefore were not implicated in the same danger as euen in this about the Saints departed where the chiefe danger lyeth viz. in worshipping them and trusting to them as to Mediators that shall preuaile and that haue power to helpe But you shall not thus put me from the first thing propounded viz. to shew the beginning of these superstitions Pope Alexander first instituted Holy Water Anno 115. Sabel Tom. 1. Concil Pope Higâ—â—â— Chryâ—â—ne in Baptisme Anno 141. Euseb lib. 4 c. 10. An Exorcift was first ordained by Pope Caius Anno 283. Sabel The signe of the Crosse was not vsed but for signification 300 yeares or if for blessing with inuocation vpon him that was crucified the trust not being in it but in Christ crucified A materiall Crosse or Crucifixe was not set vp till 400 yeares after Christ neither was it appointed till Anno 710 when the Trullan Councell ordained Cap. 82. Policbron l. 5. c. 12. Can. 15. that Christ should bee pictured hanging vpon the Crosse The first Crosse erected in England was Anno 635 in the time of King Oswald In the fift Carth. Councell