sometime lesse or howsoeuer in like sort they haue varied both as touching the Clergy and the people that should haue to deale therein wherein they haue had as many diuersities as about the former or finally whatsoeuer concerning other circumstances of their election they haue thought good to adde or detract from the ordinary way before in force they haue neither long continued anie one ordinary waie neither during the time of the continuance thereof haue they followed inviolably that waie And as it hath beene with that chiefe Sea of theirs so hath it bene with other inferiour places so that no constancie hath beene in anie of their ordinarie waies of entrance nor yet anie due care either carefully to obserue the canōs of the scripture the canons of the Church or their owne decrees made for that purpose In their late councell of Trent by sundry canons and Chapters therein set downe it appeares that they there assembled considering what horrible abuses there had beene in the election and ordination of vnfit Bishops and Priests amongst thē thought it most needeful to preuēt the like for the time to come to deuise to enact sūdry holesōe canons to breed a learned preaching ministrie and to procure an election and ordination thence forth for them as free from corruption as in their wisedomes they could conceaue but yet who knows not but that those canōs haue since bine and yet are as carelesly lookt vnto and herein kept amongst them as though they had neuer beene made Wherefore to conclude this point let Albine and neuer so many more of them brag that they enter by the ordinary way vnles thereby he meane a way that ordinarily is naught and corrupt he speaketh more then euer he can proue and so therein hath saied nothing to proue the comming of their Bishops and Priests vnto their places to be lawfull and good And yet if we will beleeue him their Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests but if it be true as it must needes bee that they can not be so who neither haue a lawfull way of entraunce to their offices nor yet their offices are themselues of Gods ordinance then it is apparant euen by that which I haue saied already that neither their Bishops nor Priestes are right Bishops nor Priests Their Bishops from the highest to the lowest by their vsage and practise chalenge and take vnto themselues an office of another essence and nature then the office that Christ and his Apostles haue left and prescribed to true Bishops and so likewise is it with their Priests For one vniuersall and head Bishop ouer all others such as they take their Pope to be Christ neuer ordeined for he made all his Apostles by giuing them all equall one and selfesame commission his officers equallie to beare for their times the generall and vniuersall care of ouersight ruling ordering and directing his Church and to bring it to full perfection ascending into heauen when he was disposed this waie in bestowing Church officers vpon his Church by the ministery of his word and sacraments to consummate it vnto the ende besides these as inferiour ministers hee gaue onely as you may read Ephesians the fourth Euāgelists Prophets Pastours teachers where neither your Popes Cardinals nor Masse-priests are once remēbred The matter wherein the full execution of the off ce of al the ministeries cōsisteth that Christ hath left vnto his Church is duely soūdly to feede Gods people committed vnto them with heauenly foode by painefull and diligent preaching vnto them the word of God and ministring vnto them the sacraments and rightly and oderly to gouerne the Churches of Christ by the administration of ecclesiasticall order and discipline which are things that the greatest and fattest in your Romish Synagog thinke themselues little or no whit at all bound vnto These things are too base matters for your Popes to be occupied about their office consists and therefore they accordingly must busie themselues in other matters as namely in making and marring in setting vp putting downe seculer Princes as they call them in studying by all meanes faire and foule to mainetaine and to enlarge their authority and patrimony in deuising by a thousād waies though neuer so couetously tyrānously insatiably to gather together infinite sums of money to buy or to winne by force of armes great principalities for their bastards nephews and neeces to spend in the persecuting subduing better Christiās thē thēselues to build sumptuous pallaces banquetting houses temples to shroud idolatry idols in costly beutified the better to intice men for their further aduantage to commit spirituall whoardome with them In and about these things your Popes now these many 100. yeares haue spent their wits all these parts of the world and all Croniclers of any credit can and wil testify If they haue any leasure from these affaires then they must shewe themselues not to haue beene idle and fruitlesse in deuising some newe ceremonie in adding some patch or other to their Church seruice in proclaiming the crosse against the Turke for the recouery of the holy land in publishing some Iubile and indulgences in setting vp some new order of Religious men for the better support of their kingdome or at least in plotting and contriuing some conspiracy or trecherous deuise to supplant and murther some Christian Prince that hath drawen or is like to draw his people from their Antichristian Religion And your other Bishops occupation lieth most in blessing with their fingers in consecrating of their vnholy holie Chrisme in christening of belles and Churches in ordering vnorderlie and contrary to their owne canōs of an idolatrous and new found sort of Priests in running vp downe fondly and superstitiously to minister the sacrament as they count it of confirmation scarse the tythe of them euer had either skill or will to preach And as for your Cardinals as they are of an order but of a late deuise so by their behauiour we can not iudge their office to lie in any thing else but to serue the Popes turne for the better setting forth of his magnificence at home and to bee his agents in forraine kingdomes the easelier to contriue his purposes their They are and haue beene a long time their first natiuity considered notable fellowes to haūt and maintaine the stewes at Rome and to deuoure and to consume in ryot vanity and impiety all the Bishopricks and benefices that they could heape together without any care for the good of the people and the vse of them hath beene to brawle and to breede scismes in choosing of Popes and to stur al coales and to moue euery stone as fast as they could one after another to thrust into that place Now to come to your ordinary Priestes though the matter of teaching and ministring of sacraments especiallie was posted ouer vnto them and vnto Friers yet either were they not able to doe it which was
the bare and running with the hounde getteth a man frendes but he that will laye flattery aside tell the plaine truth shal get nothing but hatred Thus in these daies vice is extolled vertue contemned Ill rule is made â—f and good rule neglected O heart dissembled which vnder coulour to be iust true canst cloke vnto vs hipocrisie for deuotion ambition for gentlenesse couetousnes for â—oÌ„petencie cruelty for zeale bolde babling without learning for eloqueÌ„ce florishing Rhetoricke without fruit or reasoÌ„ folly for grauity wilines without wit and fleshly wanton libertie for liberty of the Gospell This is nothing els but the deuils drifte alway couering his poison vnder some taste of suger Fallit enim vitium specie virtutis vmbra g This inuectiue speech we may iustly vse of you and your side For the summe ende of all their false doctrine is nothing els but malice with murther to the ouerthrowe of Christes Religion and the true ministers thereof This is their sheepes clothing for an vnhappy reformation Nam impia sub dulci melle venena latent Vnder sweete honny is deadly venome hid O blinde ignorance and ignorant blindnes O cruell and damnable mischiefe comming from the bottomeles pit of hel O intollerable furiousnes and heresie more detestable then it mate any longer be suffered The greate dâ—spleasure the extreame vengaunce the cruell plagues of God hange ouer our heades if this horrible heresie be not shortly remoued froÌ„ mens mindes O h These wordes iustly we maie breake out into in respect of the infinite blasphemies and abominations held and maintained by your side in this point good god how long wilt thou suffer this intollerable abhomination It shameth me it abhorreth me to thinke that these shameles beastes are not ashamed to speake of the most blessed Sacramentes of Christes Church who is able to expresse either by tongue or penne their wicked abhomination whye haue we a pleasure to forsake the true vnderstanding of Gods most sacred worde and become followers and bondslaues of the deuils counterfaite and deceitfull expositions carnall reasons set out by his ministers who in Religion are i This obiection of the diuersitie of opinions see answered at large Cap. 4. so deuided that now they dreame one thing and now another this day they like tomorowe they mislike one is against another of them euen in the highest misterie of Christ his Religion And no meruaile for the deuill is their chiefe head whom they serue and he is full of lies variaunce diuision and discorde vnder him their Schoolemasters were Hus Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer Melancthon and the Archheretike Caluin k Therein there is no proofe that he helde any one heresy whose heresies are confuted in the Discourse hereafter ensuing l This is vntrue These with the rest of that rable did neuer agree one with another in their doings there is no vnity no certainty at all and therefore such masters such schollers come of them And this diuision this vnconstancie of doctrine was a manifest token that they were not the children of our true mother the Catholike Church nor ministers of Christ but the children of the deuill and ministers of Antichrist yea very Antichrists m Which that you papists be is most certain the contrariâ—ty of your doctrine with the auncient catholic e Church considered which I haue noted cap. 17. 29 of my answer For whosoeuer saieth S. Augustine is gone from the vnitie of the Catholicke Church hee is become an Antichrist These Antichrists haue borne a great stroke now too long time in our Realme of England in whom is no constancy no stedfastnesse of religion and doctrine These are they that haue damnably deceiued you and haue with their damnable preachings intised you from Church to Church from an heauenly Church to a malignant Church from a louing mother n This is false to a flattering harlot from the condition of grace to the state of perdition o These words remaining we iustly say to and of you from truth to falshoode from faithfull beleeuing to carnall reasoning from sauing Christ to deceauing Antichrist But good Reader beware be not deceaued be not ashamed to arise that hast so shamefully fallen be not ashamed to come home to your mother the Church sith shee is not ashamed to receiue you Let not folly lose the thing that grace hath so preciouslie offered and purchased Let not wilfulnesse and blindnesse put out so great light as is now shewed vnto thee but embrace most humblie the doctrine of our mother the catholicke church so shall you sit in the lappe of so tender a mother which will cherish you into life euerlasting Choose the best whiles choise lieth in lot What were you ashamed of your preface that you put not your name to it Indeede it is so fonde and friuolous that you might well enough be ashamed to father it An answere to the preface set before Iohn de Albines booke entituled A notable discourse against heretickes c. BEfore I take in hande to say any thing to Iohn de Albine or his booke I must craue of thee gentle reader whosoeuer thou art these two things that thou wouldest first giue me leaue to answere the long tedious and bragging preface prefixed before his booke by the publisher thereof and that then also thou thy selfe wouldest vouchsafe before thou goest any further either to the considering what Albine hath obiected or I answered to take the paines to reade ouer this my answere to the saide preface And though it seeme vnto thee of an extraordinary length so somewhat discourages thee yet the length of his considered likewise I pray thee beare with me and vouchsafe the reading of it thorow before thou proceedest any further His preface thou seest is long but indeede so vaine and friuolous it is that though it seemeth the authour thereof was some bolde and impudent Iesuite or fugitiue of our owne country yet such care he had of his credit that for feare of losse thereof he hath not thought good to put his name vnto it The vanity and weakenesse thereof may euen sufficiently appeare by those marginall notes that I haue affixed vnto it so that if I troubled thee with no further answere vnto it I hope it neither could nor should much moue thee or any other to thinke any thing the better of their Church and religion then thou didst before yet because neither he nor any of his faction for want of a further particular aunswere vnto it shall take occasion to persuade theÌ„selues or other that there is further weight and matter in it then indeede there is I will vouchsafe some more paines about it First therefore this I would haue thee Christian Reader for the coÌ„mendation of the authors great skill to obserue that almost al of it is spent in prouing those things which are needles because we teach graunt defende theÌ„ to
oft in this your booke and the rest of your side continually beare the simple reader and vnlearned Christian in hand that before Luther there were none of our religion that haue so condemned your Church and religion as we doe I wil vouchsafe for the better inabling of euery one that shall read this my answere to see your vanity and impiety though this which I haue noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter Wherefore to go on in the course of times though your popish Church hath bene in her ruffe and at the heighest that euer she was this latter 400 yeares yet we are able to shew that there haue bene many euen in this time from time to time and that in sundry places that haue ioyned with vs against you that therefore there is no such newnesse or strangenes in our religion a d doings as you would make the ignorant beleeue For in the dayes of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church and other Easterne Churches did quite forsake communion with yours who euer since ioyne with vs in a number of thinges against you as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop as appeareth not onely by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote vnto the pope in the yeare 1237 but also by a large booke writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica wherein he doeth not onely confute his Supremacy euen as we doe but also he enueigheth against al those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church And as it appeareth in ancient record in the Church of Herford wherein 29 of the Articles wherein they differ from the Church of Rome are set downe they ioine not only with vs in this point in seperating thēselues frō the Romish Church in denying the popes supremacie which is the very foundation of your Church and religion but also in denying purgatory and masses for the dead in holding it lawfull for their ministers to enioy the benefit of matrimony in not vsing any priuate masse in not denying the cup to any that receaue in not ministring the communion in priuate houses in not vsing extreme vnction and in sundry other points And by diuers Epistles writen from thence of late extant in print both in greeke and latin to Chitreus and other Germans it euidently appeareth that they ioyne with vs against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religiō and that great hope there is that they might easily be brought to ioyne with vs in the rest Besides these Easterne churches euē here in these westerne parts euident it is that there haue beene many great learned and famous persons with innumerable followers at all tymes from age to age in these latter 400 yeares when the tyranny of your popes to represse them hath bene the greatest and strongest that euer it was which yet haue openly with vs stood forth against them and their religion For Fredericke the second as diuers other Emperours had beene before him as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his sonne and Constantine the 6 in the East and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West was a notable Antagonist of the 3 popes in his time contending against them to maintaine the authority of Christian princes against their vsurped Supremacy ouer them about the yeare 1260 as notoriously the Cronicles of those times writen by your owne men Platina Sabelicus and others declare And 20 years before that Krātzius testifieth in his history that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia that the Pope was an heretique his clergy Symoniakes and generally they all seducers of the people Ten yeares after that florished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ a Spaniard who taught that Sathā had thē seduced the world that the faith thē taught was but such as deuils had meaning belike a bare historicall faith that the pope led men to hell that he and his clergy did falsifie the doctrine of Christ that masses were naught not to be saied for the dead c. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretique Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore a master and chiefe ruler then in Paris who went as farre as Arnoldus applying the same Scriptures which concerne Antichrist as we doe to the pope and his clergy and therefore hee also was condemned for an heretique and his bookes burnt by your popish rout And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also tooke this Williams part against the pope wrote a booke in his defence In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohānes a Minorite directly preached the pope to be Antichrist and Rome great Babylon and therefore he was burnt after he was dead 30 yeares and more before this Robert Grosthead a famous learned man and Bishop of Lincolne for hee died in the yeare one thousand two hunderd fifty three was a great withstander of the popes tyranny and three dayes before his death hauing conference with his clergy he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations that the pope was Antichrist and his doings Antichristian King Philip of France about the yeare one thousand three hundred was a great withstander of the Supremacy which now the Pope challengeth and a resister in his dominions of sundry of his enormities and William Nagareta and the prelates of France then ioyned with their king against the pope Grosthead this king Philip and his clergy as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England in the yeare 1346 despised the popes curse appealed frō him to God There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty eight In the Extrauagants we reade that Marsillius Patauinus Iohannes de Ganduno Michael Chesenas Petrus de Carborea and Iohannes de Poliaco all great learned men were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy and other errours of that Church of his about the yeare 1326. There were thē also many learned mē more that disputed wrote against his Supremacy which took part with Ludouicke the Emperour against him as William Occam Luitpoldus Andreas Landanensis Vlricus Hangenor the Emperors treasurer and others Dante 's liuing in the yeare one thousand three hundred wrote against the Pope the orders of religious men and the Doctours of the Decrees saying that these were three great enemies to the trueth he flatly hath left in writing in his cāticle of Purgatory that the Pope of a pastor was become a woulfe that he was the whoar of Babylon In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminensis Andreas de Castro and Burdianus taught as we doe against your doctrine of freewill and merites Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine preached openly against your doctrine
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
seede and then is he taught how to liue in his vocation wherein lieth the sum of that Religion which wee now teach and preach For first we teach men how to serue God according to his owne reuealed wil not according to their owne fansie as you doe Secondly finding men many waies to decline from this rule wee labour to make them see their sins and the danger thereof which wheÌ„ we haue done we send theÌ„ only to Iesus Christ for help and comfort In both with you also offend first whiles you keepe men froÌ„ seeing the multitude and grieuousnes of their sinnes by extenuating the power of original sin by making maÌ„ beleeue that the fulfilling of the law is now possible vnto him that many sins of their owne nature for their littlenes are veniall and that the first motions of sinne arising from the corruption of our owne hearts not consented vnto are no sin and then you go from this most ancient order of God in that you send men for their recouerie not only to Iesus Christ but to their owne freewill merits and satisfaction to a nuÌ„ber of thinges very trifling and ridiculous by vse and doing whereof you would perswade them they shall purchase to themselues remission of their sinnes In the 3. point also we follow the patterne of our heauenly father calling vpon euery man according to his calling to get his liuing in an honest vocation with the sweate of his browes and shewing woman that in lawfull wedlocke if by nature or otherwise she haue not the gift of continencie though to her paine sorrow she is for the encreasing of Gods kingdome and the common weale wherein shee liueth to conceaue and beare children whereas you drawe both the one and the other herefrom into Hermitages Cloisters and Nunries there to liue an idle life out of all vocation profitable to the Church or common weale And we are perswaded that this Religion and consequently a Church to holde and embrace it hath euer since vnto these daies continued And we graunt you also that though God for the sinnes of his people doe afflict his Church diuers times and that grieuously as he did the Isralites with the 70. yeares captiuity yet then he doeth not leaue them without teachers to comfort them and therefore in all ages and times doe constantly beleeue in one place or other that this our ReligioÌ„ and Church hath had some such Yet you must take this with you that in such times of the afflictioÌ„ of the Church the ordinary state of the ministrie thereof hath often failed For you haue heard Azariah the prophet tel king Asa in respect of such times as were before his time that Israell a long season had beene without the true God without prophet to teach and without lawe 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hosea you may reade prophecied that the children of Israell shall remaine many daies without a King without a Prince without an offring without an image without an Ephod and without Teraphim by which wordes the Prophet plainely foresheweth an interruption should be of their outward ordinary visible ministry And euen in respect of the time that you meÌ„tion it appeareth in the 2. of the Imâ—â—â—ntat that the like was fulfilled in the Church in respect of that time of their captiuity in Babylon For there Ieremie lamenting the state of the Church then saieth The Lord hath caused the feastes and Sabbothes to be forgotten in Sion and hath despised in the indignation of his wrath the King and the Priests the Lord hath forsaken his altar hath abhorred his sanctuary And when those prophecies of the florishing of Antichrist 2. Thes 2. and Reuel 17. and that of the Churches being driued into the wildernes and there remaining for a time Reuel 12. should be fulfilled who seeth not that it is no strange thing but a thing plainly foreshewed should be that neither the church herselfe nor her teachers should be very visible and apparent And therefore speaking of those times when indeede those prophesies were verified as you doe you doe our church and her ministers great double wrong first in thus chasing theÌ„ into the wildernes there to saue themselues from your fury and then yet in exacting at our handes the names of them whom God by thus hiding of them preserued to continue his church And yet as I haue shewed you before cap. 4. in the mercie of God wheÌ„ your AntichristiaÌ„ Synagogue florished most in Bohemia other places the Christians called WaldeÌ„ses were many and has diuers assemblies schools churches and ministers Why theÌ„ say you haue you not or do you not run to theÌ„ that by theÌ„ you may haue your ministers ordeined or confirmed if you haue tell vs their names that did it I answere you we haue thought it needles seeing as I haue shewed otherwise both our former later ministers nearer home had both ordinatioÌ„ confirmation that well enough serued their turnes Besides I am sure you caÌ„not be ignoraÌ„t but it hath ben an ordinary thing with God wheÌ„ the ordinary ministers of the church consequently the outward face couÌ„tenance thereof hath bene corrupted gon froÌ„ y truth waies of the lord to raise extraordinarily prophets and others to seeke procure the reformatioÌ„ thereof as it appeareth by raising vp from time to time Prophets amongst the Israelites in the ruins and corruptions of his church who should haue had wrong offred if they should not haue bene receiued as the Lords ministers vntill either they could get ordinary admission of the Prelates then to reform whose corruptions they were seÌ„t or vntil they could shew the names of some other prophets that had ordinarily succeeded others also ordeined them Which is the very case of the Lords faithful ministers whom he hath vsed first in any nation without the ordinary calling of the daies immediatly going before to detect lay opeÌ„ the horrible corruptioÌ„s thrust vpon the Church by the papacy For they fouÌ„d that the word of God was concealed hid froÌ„ the people that insteede thereof they were fed with the inuentions and traditions of men y the honour that was due to God alone was turned vnto meÌ„ vnto images that the bloud of Christ was ineffect trodeÌ„ vnderfoot in that so many by waies were sought to atteine to heaueÌ„ by besides Christ that the sacrament of his body bloud was turned into grosse Idolatry the vse quite peruerted To be short they found al the holy scripture prophaned poisoned which the Popes glosses false interpretatioÌ„s These things therfore being thus the lord reueling vnto theÌ„ his truth because the time was come that Antichrist must be detected the lord gaue vnto theÌ„ the spirit of courage and boldnes first to notifie these corruptions to the Prelates of your church and to craue at their haÌ„ds the reformation thereof but finding that that would not be because sathaÌ„ will
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN DE ALBINES NOTABLE DISCOVRSE AGAINST heresies as his frendes call his booke compiled by THOMAS SPARK pastor of Blechley in the County of Buck. And I heard a voice from heauen saying Come out of her my people that yee be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receaue not of her plagues Revelat. 18. vers 4. Put your selues in aray against Babylon rounde about all yee that bende the bowe shoote at her spare no arrowes for shee hath sinned against the Lord. Ierem. 50. vers 14. ACADEMIA OXONIENSIS SAPIENTIAE ET FELICITATIS Printed at Oxforde by IOSEPH BARNES Printer to the Vniversitie 1591. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE ARTHVRE LORD GREY OF WILTON Knight of the most honourable order of the Garter his especiall good Lord and Patrone Thomas Sparke Wisheth all good perseuerance in Christian courage and constancy in the profession and furtherance of Gods sincere truth with all other ornaments of true nobility to Gods glorie our comfort and his owne heart good contentation nowe and euer ALthough Right Honourable when I had first perused this treatise of Iohn de Albines I foūd it thorow out a most bitter inuectiue a malitious declamation written onely of purpose to deface disgrace amongst the simple both our religion the ministers professors thereof yet finding withal as I did as anie indifferent man that reads it shal that neither for matter nor manner of writing there is any newe thing of any importance in it which hath not beene before euer this discourse of his sawe the light oftē that far more substantially vrged by some other of that side therefore which hath not also heretofore been as oftē fully effectually answered by some or other of ours I not only iudged this to be the reason when it hauing now been amōgst vs in english these 16. or 17. yeares none hitherto had vouchsafed it any further particular answere but also though vrged as your Honour knoweth to frame vnto it a speciall direct answere I could yet hardly be brought to thinke it necessary so basely I esteemed of it to aford it any other answere then either a fewe marginal notes that whē I first red it I bestowed vpō it or frō point to point as it were in a table to haue shewed the reader where and by whom he might read the same thing long ago often obiected on the one side answered by the other which might haue bene in one sheet of paper very well dispatched Howbeit in the end calling to minde what your Lordship tolde me concerning the opinion that our poore seduced cuntrimen seeme secretly to haue amōgst thēselues of it as you learned by one of their owne speeches had thereof vnto your selfe in acquainting you first with the booke and marking how not onely by publishing it in english but also by entitling it both in the forhead ouer euery leafe a notable discourse against heresies they themselues haue plainely shewed that they haue it in no base account finding it also since to be the iudgement of a certaine learned man of auncient and long experience euen of our owne side now this last yeare published in print that the hauing of this very booke so long in secret amongst them vnanswered hath bene one great cause of the apostasy of so many yong mē as of late yeares in this our cuntry haue reuolted from the truth to popery at the last I resolued with my selfe though I know that whē I had done what I could herein that I should be foūd to haue said litle or nothing not said writtē aswel before by some one or other of our side that yet your Lordships request made vnto me to answere it as fully and directly as I coulde when you first shewed me the booke how you came by it was is such as that both of duty to your selfe particularly for sundry causes to the church of Christ generally for that by this means many may see togither an answere to that which otherwise in great part either they might chance neuer to hit of in any other wryter of ours or else be driuen to search more those further then it was likely they would or could I was bound to satisfy in as good sort as any way conueniently I could Hauing therefore encouradgement by these reasons to take it in hand hauing now by Gods grace finished it in maner as you see I present the same vnto your Honour as an vndoubted token of my dutifull affection towards you beseeching you not onely to take the paynes as your leasure serueth you to peruse it ouer your selfe but also desyring you to bee vnto it such a patrone as that it comming abroade thus by your prouocation it may haue your best protection and countenaunce to passe vp and downe openly and boldly both in the veiw of frendes and foes vnto it There was prefixed before Jhon de Albines book vvhich your honour deliuered me a long preface to the reader made as it should seeme by the publisher thereof in english and there was annexed vnto it in the later ende an offer of a catholicke as hee is there termed to a learned protestant consisting of two and twenty demaunds and six signes of false prophets heretiques and schismatiques the preface I haue aunswered and the answere thereunto I haue placed next vnto my aunswere vnto Albines booke it selfe somewhat also I haue annexed that answere of mine to his booke finished in the latter ende to shewe the vanitie and childishnesse of those things which the author hath vttered in the application of those six signes to vs but to that which hee hath written concerning those two and twenty demaunds I haue said nothing And indeed because otherwise the booke was growen farre greater then I imagined at the first it woulde I haue not at all inserted that offer nor anie part thereof The reason of my not medling at all with those two and twenty demaunds and not troubling this my booke at all with anie part of that offer is that Doctor Fulke long agoe hath aunswered those demaundes and that also nowe of late Master Crowley hath at large aunswered both them and that which is added concerning those signes Doctor Fulkes answere thereunto maie bee had vnder the title of an aunswere of a Christian protestant to the proude Chalenge of a popish Catholicke and it is prefixed commonly before his booke written in confutation of Allens of Purgatorie Indeede concerning the six signes hee saieth nothing not because of any greater matter in them then in the rest but because at the first they were not published with the other The demaunds though hee haue aunswered shortly according to his manner yet so sharpely and effectuallie hee hath doone it that if the Chalenger were a man of his worde hee continued not long after a popish Catholicke Master Crowleys aunswere to the whole offer worde for worde as it was annexed
ascended vp into heauen and sitteth on the right hande of his father Wherevnto I aunswere that we must heare his voice sounding by the mouth of his e True but there by straight is not ment yours which along time hath beene an impudent harlot Church which is the very true spouse of Iesus Christ QuaÌ„ sanctificauit mundans eam lauacro aquae in verbo vitae whom hee hath sanctified and purified with the bath of water in the worde of life vt exhiberet ipse sibi gloriosam ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugam to make it a glorious Church to himselfe without spot or wrinkle Ad Ephesios 5. f Thus you take for granted that your synagogue is this church of of Christ and that we haue departed from the church of Christ both which are most false If we hear the church we hear Christ for as the holy Bishop Martyr Irenaeus writeth in the forty Chapter of his thirde booke Vbi ecclesia ibi spiritus vbi spiritus dei illic ecclesia omnis gratia spiritus autem veritas where the Church is there is the spirit of God where the spirit of God is there is the Church al grace the spirit is truth Wherefore as the same godly father writeth in the forty and three Chapter of his fourth booke we be bounde to be obedient to the Prelates of the Church his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis to them that haue their succession from the Apostles Reliquos verò saieth hee qui absistunt a g This principall succession is succession in truth which you are gone from long agoe principali successione quocunue loco colliguntur suspectos habere quasi haereticos oportet As for all other that goe away from the g Which is in truth that which your synagogue long ago hath done principall succession wee ought to suspect them as heretickes These are Irenaeus wordes in the place nowe alleadged And Christ saieth himselfe Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee Wherefore if wee will heare Christ as his father hath commaunded vs Ipsum audite Heare him Matth. 17. then must wee heare the Church h These things are true of the true and pure church of Christ listening to and following the voice of her husband and not otherwise and therefore not of your synagogue The Church is our most holy Mother whom we ought to haue in great reuerence and to commit our selues wholly vnto her to heare her and like obedient children to doe what she biddeth vs. What the Church holdeth in matters of religion that must we holde what the Church prescribeth it is our duetie to followe what the Church forbiddeth that are we bound vnder paine of damnation to auoyde in any wise a Therefore is it that we dare not beleeue your Romish spirit because we trying it by the scriptures finde it contrary to the spirit that was author of them S. Iohn in the fourth Chapter of his first Epistle biddeth vs beware that wee beleeue not euery spirite but to trye the spirites whether they be of God or not Then how can they be of God which goe from the Church S. Augustine in the exposition of this Epistle of S. Iohn tractatu primo writeth thus b This you haue done therefore by his rule howe can you be in Christ Qui ecclesiam relinquit quomodo est in Christo qui in membris Christi non est Quomodo est in Christo qui in corpore Christi non est Hee that leaueth the Church hovv is hee in Christ that is not in the members of Christ how is he in Christ that is not in the body of Christ By the which S. Augustine affirmeth that the Church which is the spouse of Christ is also the misticall body of Christ Christ is the heade of the Church As many therefore as be Christ his sheepe they heare their shepheards voice in the Church They wil not heare the voice of strangers c You should haue exemplified in your owne doctors and theÌ„ had you said well as of Luther Oecolampadius Zuinglius Caluin and like heretikes which for all their gay wordes and crying still Christ and the Ghospel may haue euery one of theÌ„ these verses of Persius in his fift Satyre worthily spoken to him Pelliculam veterem retines fronte politus AstutaÌ„ vapido seruas sub pectore vulpem Thou keepest still thine olde hyde vppon thee and bearing a faire face thou wrappest a wyly foxe vnder thy vaporous brest d euen your popes and doctors for these many yeares Act. 20. These bee they of whome Saint Peter speaketh in the seconde Chapter of his seconde Epistle Magistri mendaces qui introducunt sectas perditionis Lying masters bringing in sectes of perdition and denying the God that bought them Howebeit since it is so as Paul sayeth There wil be alwaies rauening wolues non parcentes gregi not sparing the flocke And amoÌ„g our owne selues wil men arise speaking peruerse things And such is our fraile nature that as the wittie Horace sayeth e And therefore the Romish struÌ„pet holdes out her poyson in a golden Cup. Reu. 17. Decipimur specie recti We be soone deceiued vnder the colour of truth It behoueth vs to followâ— the counsel of our head principal master Iesus Christ which teacheth vs an excellent document of heauenly philosophy saying f And therefore we had neede to take heede of you Attendite vobis à falsis Prophetis take ye heede to your selues beware of false Prophets which come vnto you in vestimentis ouium in sheepes cloathing but inwardlie they are Lupi rapaces Rauening wolues We must I saie beware that we be not deluded and vnder colour of Euangelical varitie bee made to receaue pernitious and damnable heresies as alas the more pittie hath miserably chaunced to our noble Realme of g This is true of EnglaÌ„d in respect of Qu. Maries daies and so theÌ„ truly we might did say vnto you as you here now falsly say vnto vs. Englande vnder colour of bringing vs to truth leading vs await from the truth to the vtter decay of all godlines setting vp of counterâ—aite religion a Euen this is the state of your Church in deed The weede hath nowe overgrowen the corne euill hurtâ—ull and soulequelling weedes of heresie haue ouergrowen oppressed pulâ—d downe to the grounde and vtterly choked the good corne of christian â—eligion and all ecclesiasticall constitutions b Thus we say that iustly to our people in respect of you Al you therefore that haue â—een seduced and taken weeds for wholsome flowers beware least with the â—ench of such rotten weedes yee infect your soule to euerlasting damnatiâ—n The infallible truth is dayly opened vnto you c It doth not at all appeare by the discourse that there is any falshood at all in our Religion The falshoode is mightily
the picture of Iesus or sōe of the Saints yet he cōdemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion therefore perswades him not to suffer any such thing any more for it became him to banish such superstition which was vnseemely for the Church of Christ Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19. of his diuine institutions saieth flatly that their can be no Religion where there is an image he liued florished in the yeare 320. And S Augustine who liued after al these before named for he died not before the yeare 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they euen deserue to erre which seeke Christ and his Apostles not in bookes but in painted wals Yea Gregory the great as they cal him Bishop of Rome though thē the painting of stories for an ornamēt of the church was thought tolerable yet he lib. 7. Epist 109. lib. 9. Epist 9. to Serenus slatly cōdemneth the adoring worshipping of images And whereas by occasiō of this tolerating of historicall painting of them through the superstition corruption of mans nature within short time by litle litle the worshipping of thē grew to be too much vsed liked of many especially in these Westerne parts of the Bishops of Rome thēselues by the yeare of Christ 700. the Emperour Leo the third in a coūcell held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops there with the consent of that coūcell decreed that they should be quite remoued out of churches burnt seuerely he punishes those which notwithstanding would perseuere in the worshipping of them And the same course tooke his successour Constantine by another great coūcell held their ratifying the former two Emperours more succeeding him notwithstāding al this while the Bishops of Rome with stood thē what they might decreed as fast for the retaining worshipping of thē as they could as it appeares in Sigebert Blōdus others Howbeit though also in the time of Irene the nonage of her sonne Constātine in the east through the suggestiō of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople they got there a councell helde at Nicea consisting of three hūdreth fifty Bishops where to currie fauour againe with the Bishops of Rome who vpō the former occasiō as it appears in Sigebert others had bene a shrewd traiterous meanes to cause these westerne parts to reuolt frō the empire they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images Yet Africk Asia the greater could neuer be brought to receiue those canōs there made yea that more is though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to trāslate the empire of the west vnto him so were those canōs in this point misliked cōtradicted here in thes western parts that a coūcel in his time by his meās as the Emperour being called at Francford whereunto came many Bishops of Italy Frāce Germāy other cūtries yet there euē for this point was that coūcel of Nice reiected cōdēned as a wicked councell witnes both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. also one Hinckmare not lōg after those times Archbishop of Rhemes writing against another of his name thē Bishop of Iandune or Lauedune as some cal it ca. 20. where he for further proofe of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a booke of purpose to be writen sent to Rome cōteining at large a cōfutatiō of al the reasons vsed for images at Nicea which in his yoūg yeares he saw which the keeper of the Popes library Augustine Steuchus cōfesses to lie there writē in anciēt caracters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59. nu 60. And Roger Houodē who liued 400. years ago in his cōtinuatiō of Bedeas story in the year 792. shewing how Charles sēt the canōs of that coūcel of Nice hither wherin as he saith it was decreed that images ought to bee adored which the church of God vtterly detesteth reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determinatiō maruelously grounded vpō the scriptures which he caried into France as he saith in the name of our Bishops by occasion whereof the rather it should seeme shortly after Charles thought meete to call the foresaid coūcell at Francford All these things notwithstanding neuer were images pillers and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their nor euer were idols more grosly adored of heretiques or the very pagans and heathen then they haue bene yet be of superstitious Papists For they crouch kneele vnto them present offerings before them they run a pilgrimage vnto them and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour that is due vnto them whose images and monuments they be though in an other manner not for their owne sakes but for theirs whose remembrances they be But indeed if in worshipping of them they did not principally respect the Images themselues why should there not be as great deuotion as many pilgrimages as great offerings presented yeelded to the image of Christ Mary or of any other aswell in one place as in an other Well howsoeuer they will do wickedly herein and when they haue done seeke to colour the matter such in truth all the worlde sees herein hath beene their dealing that Euthymius in his panoply had neuer more cause to name the Armenians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Idolaters to the crosse for their grosse and superstitious worshipping of it then we haue generally to count and call the Romanists flat idolaters for their behauiour towards it and other images also Thus then hoping by this that I haue said cōcerning this point that not onely thou maiest see goodreader when and how this point of popery first came in but how and by whom it hath beene oppugned but consequently also that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture fathers consent of Christian regions and al that she bragges of let vs see if wee can shew the like concerning the other point of forced single life vpō the clergy which she holds to be so necessary and holy an ordinance as that by no meanes without deadly sin it may be transgressed Euen in this as in the former if we search the monumentes of antiquity well we shal finde that they haue very auncient heretiques to be their first fathers leaders For the Tacianists commonly cald Encratites of their abstinence from mariage certaine other thinges who began about the yeare one hundred forty two were great condemners of mariage as appeares in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum in Epiphanius writing of them Heresi 46. After them spronge vp the Manichees who in like manner were enemies to mariage but not so vniuersally as the former for they permitted it to others and restraine onely their clergy from it whō they calde their elect as August witnesseth of them Epist 74. but indeed as many as
and his Priests and by the rest to set vp themselues in the very seat of Antichrist They pretend the glory of Christ and of Peter and Paul in the doctrine of the supremacy but it is the feeding of their owne pompous tyraÌ„nous ambition that in trueth they seeke in it In their swarmes of Monkeries Frieries they pretend wilfull pouerty and an vtter forsaking of the world and yet all the world seeth that to maintaine themselues therein in idlenes belly-cheare and al kinde of worldly and carnal pleasure they had houses like Princes and reueÌ„nues maintenaunces like great Lordes of the worlde They haue pretended that they vvould haue Emperours and Kinges in no case to giue Bishoprickes and benefices to preuent Simony whereas their practise hath made it cleare that their Popes haue taken that into their owne hands but to make the clergy more to stand at their deuotion and lesse at their Princes and that they theirs might vse that occupation and trade of Simony as most proper vnto themselues They pretende charity and compassion in their pardons and indulgences deuotion and care to relieue soules by their masses dirges and trentals and an intent to fray meÌ„ froÌ„ sinne by their doctrine of Purgatory but euery maÌ„ seeth that it is onely money or money worth that hereby they fish for The vnity of the church is pretended when they seeke to establish most their owne tyraÌ„ny the honour and glory of the church they say they seeke when it is most plaine that it is onely their ovvne glory and honour they care for In the maintenaunce of their doctrine of transubstantiation they vvould seeme marueilous deuout and religious in vrging of the letter and in captiuing their ovvne sences and reason thereunto whereas indeede that course they take that so their Priestes may grovve to honour and vvealth vvhiles thereby the people are made beleeue that they can make and offer their redeemer for the saluation of quicke and deade Deuotion to the Saints they pretend in teaching that they are to bee prayed vnto and vvorshipped but therein their deuotion is like vnto Demetrius his for Diana of Ephesus for if it were not for the gaynes they get by offerings vnto their shrynes they vvould not bee so hoate therein Their doctrine of penaunce caries a shevv of mortification but it is but thereby to triumph ouer the people at their pleasures and in the ende to make a gaine by changing their penaunce or by making them to beleeue that they vvill relieue them by their prayers pardons and masses To conclude I dare bee bolde to say that there is neuer a proper point of popery but the practise and profession of it would quickly grow very cold if that the maintenance thereof made not either directly to aduaunce their wordly credit with their followers or their lucre and commodity And therefore thou maiest see euen by this whatsoeuer they bragge of their Church and Religion that euen for these three reasons they both of euery wise state consequently also of thy selfe Christian Reader ought to be shunned and auoided These things then that I haue saied well considered and remembred I will now no longer detaine thee from taking a view of that which this notwithstanding Albine hath writeÌ„ either in the defence of this his Religion or to the disgrace of ours requesting onely this at thy hands that as thou goest thou wouldest take the paines without partiality to reade and confer that which I haue writen to answere him withall Chapter by Chapter with his booke And thus hoping that thou wilt doe I commend thee and thy study therein to the direction and good protection of God my selfe vnto thy harty praiers vnto him in my behalfe Thine in the Lord THOMAS SPARKE A Notable discourse plainely and truely discussing who be the right ministers of the Catholique Church writen against Caluin and his disciples by one Master Iohn de Albine called de Seres Archdeacon of Tolossa in France Duaci per Iohannem Bellerum 1575 The first Chapter CALVIN your Patriarch doth lay to our charge a great and an outragious boldnesse saying according to his opinion that we haue introduced or taken in hand the ministery of Iesus Christ without being called to it by him that did institute Aaron in the saied estate And because that he himselfe can better then I expresse his coÌ„plaint or accusation I thinke it best to set forth his owne writings which according to his disciples opinions are of great force vertue His words as you may read are these Seeing that the Papists heare S. Paul say Jn his booke of Jnsti cap. 18. Art 58. Hebr. 5. that no person ought to take vpon him or vsurpe the name and the honour of Priesthood but he that is called to it as Aaron was And that Iesus Christ tooke it not vpon himselfe but did obey the vocation of his father either they ought to shew that God is the Author and institutour of their priesthood or els they must confesse that they are not called of God seeing that of their owne boldenes they haue taken it in hande These are Caluins wordes by the which the reader may gather that Caluin doth enioyne vs to render him an accoumpt of our vocation And although that it be so L Si quis ad si ad leg Jul. de nil publ c. that by the Ciuill law one ought to try the right of the possession before he come to demauÌ„de it the spoyle as we are to him and his fellowes as touching our Temples and reueÌ„nues in many places ought to be restored againe before the suite proceede Yet releasing this that the law doeth alowe vs we are content to answere to his demaunde adding this request thereto that both you that are his disciples and he doe make readie your papers to answere vs the like as touching yours But before I proceede in mine answere vnder correction of a man that thinkes to haue such good eies me seemeth that his argument is but very simple to say that if we cannot shew that God is the authour of our Priesthoode that we should be constrained to confesse that it is not of God a Sophistry in taking that as spoken of your maner of calling to your Priesthood which he spoke of the Priesthoode it selfe Numb 16. 2. Paâ—al 26. seeing that without being called we take it vpon vs. For what reason is there I pray you in this for although it were so that of our owne priuate power and authority without being called wee should take it vpon vs it should not follow by that that it is not of God For by that reason one might say that God was not the authour of the priesthoode of Aaron seeing that Dathan Abyron and Ozias tooke it vpon them of their owne boldnes the which is not true And as touching this that he sayeth that our order of Priesthood is not of God we will proue that false
in b But that place you find not in this booke some other place but at this time we must treat of our vocation to answere him and his complices how and by what vertue we exercise our ministry c This I deny that you come to your calling in this sort for neither is there right succession amongst your Bishops and Pastours nor continuance in that trueth which yet you say only neuer proue We are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is to say by the right succession of Bishops and Pastours and by the coÌ„tinuance of one Catholique faith deriued froÌ„ the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally d That trueth indeede hath alwaies coÌ„tinued and shall by the meanes of faithfull teachers but neither with you nor by meanes of your teachers is at all proued by there places Math. 5. Ephes 4. for in diuers places of the world it hath beene euer cleare and certaine manifestly shining like the light set on the table to giue light to all those of the house and not vnder the bushell to be shadowed with darkenes Saint Paul e Peruse the place you shal finde that though Paul reckon vp there those ministeries which should fully be sufficieÌ„t for the Church yet he once meÌ„tioneth not your gretest Prelacâ—es Howsoeuer therfore it may be as you hold they be necessary and most necessary for the pompe of your Church that so the better she might answere her patterne Apoc 17. yet thereby we may see Christs Church shall may grow to her perfection yet neuer bee acquaâ—nted with them after that he had recited by order the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie I meane of the Apostles Prophets and EuaÌ„gelists he doeth declare at the last the cause why they were instituted being for the edification of the mistical body of Christ the which is the Catholique Church vntil saieth he that in the vnity of faith we go to meete him He taketh his similitude of many that come from diuerse waies and meete all in one way f Indeede hee plainely there teacheth thaâ— there shall bee alwaies to that ende teachers in he Church but hee saieth not that they shall so succeede one another either in person or place aâ— you would â—eene thereupon to builde For no such line of continuall locall or personall succession from his time to this day can be produced And thus hee meanes that the spiritual edification of the Church ordeined of Bishops Pastours and Doctours shall endure vntill that the Gospell be preached through all nations By the effect of the which Gospell both French Spanish English Greeke Persian Arabian Latines Barbares with many other nations which were too iediâ—â— to name haue met together hauing of great antiquity all one kinde of Catholicke faith by the Apostles and their successours for euer As the some of God before he suffred did attaine arriue to the perfectioÌ„ of his age euen so his misticall body of the Church shall continue in this world vntill it be perfect in his members and that the number of the chosen be accomplished And euen as a materiall building caÌ„not be perfectly atchieued without g We see and heare of many great goodly buildings in the ende perfited in building whereof there haue beene many and sometimes long intermission continuance of workemen and masons euen so the spirituall building of the Church cannot be atchieued without the succession of Biâ—â—ops and Pastours preaching or causing the word of God to be preached which is the very spiritual building the which hath beene euer common and visible in the Church according to the prophecie of Esay h Sap. â—1 say you wel hit the place is in Esay 62. Sap. 61 â—ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the preâ—eruation of his Church hee did say as it were representing the state of Hierusalem I haue established and ordeyned i But few such haue beene in your time of succession these many yeares watchmen vpon he walles the which shall neuer holde their peace neither day â—or night These watchmen are those that haue annouÌ„ced to vs our salâ—ation They are the trumpets of Iesus Christ which neuer haue left their â—ounding in the true Church of God from the Apostles time vnto this â—resent day AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN de Albines discourse against heresies called and accounted by his frendes A notable discourse to that purpose made by Thomas Sparke Pastour of Blechley in the countie of Buck. .1591 Chapter first CALVIN we esteeme and account of as of a rare singular minister of Christ his writings as they well deserue wee thinke reuerently of and you haue tried them to be of great force power to shake the very grounds and pillars of your Babilonical building but our Patriarch we neither account nor cal him though you in your third word take it and therefore set it downe for graunted that we doe It seemeth you thinke scorne that hee should charge your Priesthoode not to bee of God and so to cal you to an accouÌ„t of your vocatioÌ„ Indeede I caÌ„not blame you that it grieueth you that that should be called into question seeing it is a thing you haue bragged on so long haue gained by at the hands of the blind ignoraÌ„t both al the credit wealth you haue especially seing also that what words soeuer you vse to countenance the matter yet you shall neuer be able to iustifie it Howbeit as though not onely you were able to answere Caluin to the full in this point but also as though there were either some great impiety or vanity at the least in his words you recite them twise admonishing your Reader that they are his wordes Be it that they be so what haue you saied either to argue the least folly in theÌ„ or to iustifie your vocation in such sort as therein he proueth you must or els it cannot be of God First you woulde proue Caluin in these wordes to offer you wrong in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth that vnlesse you can proue God to be the authour of your vocatioÌ„ it cannot be of God because the Ciuill law prescribeth that one should proue his right of possession before he demaunde it and that he should restore the spoile before the suit proceede But who seeth not that that which he alleadgeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more iustifie his demauÌ„de that either you must shew that god is the authour of your Priesthoode or els confesse that you are not called of God then anie thing that you haue noted out of the Ciuil law can proue that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands Because you are an Archdeacon it should seeme that you would faine that men should thinke to the ende you may be iudged the fitter man to execute your office that you haue some skill in the
is the thing that Caluin telleth you you must shew or els you must confesse your calling is not of God seing it is but to an office of your owne boldnes deuised and taken in hand And yet this being a thing which to iustifie your calling it stood you vpon most in the best maner you could to haue proued yea without the profe wherof all that euer you haue saied or can say of neuer so ordinarie a comming thereunto is merelie vaine friuolous yet you saie you will not meddle with it here at this time but you put it of to another place not once finding time place in this your discourse to speake a word of it againe Wherein at the first entrance in the eies of the wise you haue giuen your Priesthood a greater wound then al that you haue saied concerning the lawfulnes of your vocation thereūto can euer heale vp againe For this thing being the most pertinent material thing that could be your drift and purpose in this discourse considered for you to haue laboured about as about the soule of your cause to giue al the rest life how could you perswade your selfe but that in thus shifting of this though so thrust vpon you by your owne citing of Caluins words but that euerie one would straight iudge that you did it not because you had no will to haue proued it but because you feared that your skil would not serue you substātially to doe it And therefore in pollicy you thought it more wisdōe thus to passe it ouer as though you could saie enough thereof if you list then by entring into it to lay open your weakenes to your frends in so great a matter at your first entrance into your booke Howsoeuer you haue thought it the safest waie in this place to say nothing hereof for sauing your credit to make shew as though you would say enough in some other in the mean time euē here the nature of your popish Priesthood considered I confidentlie aduouch that neither you nor all you togither can euer proue indeede that it is of God For the Scripture teacheth vs that Christ hath an euerlasting Priesthood and that he executed that office here and doth stil there where he is for his Church so perfectlie that he hath this prerogatiue that he needeth no successors to cōtinue his office as the Priests of Aaron had nor anie other either to offer any new or to iterate that sacrifice which he offred himselfe for the saluation of mā he hath offred one so perfect so perfectly once for al He. 7.23.24 10 10. c. which prerogatiues the massing Priesthoode robbeth him of first in that they will bee his successours in the office of Priesthoode and thē in that they take vpō thē to offer him again in sacrifice to his father for the sinnes as they say both of the quick dead most blasphemously make thēselues in their offering him againe to his father mediators betwixt him and his father praying him as it appeareth in there masse-book that he would fauourably looke vpō and receiue those hoasts which they there offer vnto him for the soules of such and such Ex missâ pro defunctis ex secretis Werefore I dare be bolde to say that so far of is it that their Priesthoode is of Gods ordinaunce that most certainly it is of Sathans owne deuising and is most iniurious to the death and passion of Christ and therefore Antichristian Howbeit seeing you haue left Caluins assertion that it is not of God standing without any refutation and so are contented vntil you better aduise your selfe what to say against it to let it stand still in the meane season to render vs account of your cōming vnto it vpon condition that wee will make ready our papers when you haue answered vs to answere you how we come by our Ministery I am content to accept of this your condition and so to heare first what you can say for the iustifying of your vocation and after when and where you cal for it to yeeld you an account of ours But then in the meane time I must put you in minde and pray the gentle reader to marke it that for any thing you haue saied yet Caluins assertion against your office of Priesthoode it selfe that it is not of God standeth in full force You write that you are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is say you by the right succession of Bishops pastours and by the cōtinuāce of one catholique faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies wtout the interruption of it vniuersally This you say indeede but what haue you either here or els where in this your notable discourse for so either you or your frends cal it brought vs to proue this you cite here Mat. 5. Eph. 4. a place out of Esay with is there Cap. 62.6 though in your booke it be quoted Sap. 61. but neither any of these nor al these togither do proue your saying to be tru For taking the places in your own sēce the things therby proued are only these first that the tru Catholick faith hath alwaies so shined that it hath giuē light at al times in one place or other to thē within the house that is that be wtin the true Catholick Church to such as be neare thereūto and within the sight thereof and that Christ wil haue continually euen vntill his second comming and vntill his Church bee growen to her ful perfection his trueth continued in his Church by faythfull Pastours and Ministers and to this ende serueth also in your opinion your similitude taken from a materiall building which cannot be perfected without continuance of workemen vntill it bee done which yet caryeth with it a dissimilitude euen in the thing wherein you resemble it vnto the Church For we see by daily experience that in material buildings if they be great there are often tymes great and many interruptions and ceasings of the workemen and yet in the ende the building well enough prefected But bee it that these places proue these things and that your vnapt similitude hath no vnfitnes in it what is all this to the purpose doth it hereupon follow that you come to your offices of Priests Bishops as you haue saied Because Christ hath alwaies will to the ende preserue and cōtinue the light of his trueth by the faithful ministery of some in his church which is a thing which we alwaies haue constātly firmely beleeued to be true because he hath had hath and wil euer vnto the ende haue a holy catholicke Church against which the gates of hel neither hath at any time doeth nor euer shall vniuersally preuaile shall it hereupon follow that therefore your Priests Bishops are the mē whom Christ hath alwaies and yet doth vse to this ende or that amongst thē there hath alwaies beene the right succession in one Catholicke faith Their
must needs be good and lawfull and ours the plaine contrarie Howbeit if we examine this point throughly we shall find that they haue as weake helpe hence as from the other or from any thing else For whither they vnderstand by right succession succession without interruption in place person or office seuerally or iointly togither neither can their Bishops and Priests as they are now truelie saie they haue it nor yet if they could they being gone as they be from the soule and life of right Apostolicke succession namely the Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth are they euer the better And of the contrarie though it were neuer so true that we could not deduce vnto our present Bishops and Pastours downe from the Apostles or their times without interruptiō the line of succession in place person and office yet we being able to shew as wee are that we holde one and selfesame doctrine with them that would iustify our Church and ministers sufficientlie notwithstanding the want of the former This is quickly and easily sayed you will saie but these thinges cannot so readily bee proued I graunt to proue them will cost the more paines otherwise the proofe is readie and pregnant enough and that I doubt not but if with any indifferency that which I shall write to that ende bee marked shall ere it bee long appeare I say therefore first that the Roman Bishops and Priestes as they are now and haue beene a long time whatsoeuer they brag no not their verie Popes vnto whose right succession Stapleton and others trust most haue any right succession either to any Apostle or Apostolick man in place person or office For first they can neuer soundly proue the proofes out of the scripture are so strong to the contrary their proofes out of the stories so disagreeing and variable in all circumstances that Peter the Apostle whose successours their Popes claime to be and from whom al other Bishops and Priests amongst them haue their vocations and authority deriued was either euer at Rome or being there that hauing laied aside his Apostleship which was the greater and higher office he sate there as Bishop Secondly vnto this day they cannot agree of the order of succeeding one another betwixt Linus Cletus Clemēt Anaclet Vrspergensis in the life of Claudius hath notably at large set out both the difference of opinions in this matter and also the vncertainty of the trueth Thirdly none of any learning and reading can be so ignorant in the stories of the Bishops of Rome but he knowes that they haue not succeeded one another frō the Apostles to this day wtout interruptiō alwaies neither in place persō nor office For besids that sūdry times many Popes for some short time haue sate from Rome it is notoriously knowen that Clement the 5. about the yeare 1305. translated the Popes see from Rome into France to Auinion where it continued aboue 70. years And as for immediate orderly successiō of persons amongst them how is it possible truely certainly to define set downe that seing that see hath not onely stoode vacant daies weekes monethes and years somtimes 2. sometimes more but also there hath bene at once so often not only 2. but often 3. sometime more euery one striuing with his fauorers to be accoūted to be the right Pope And lastly by that which I haue said before of the nature of their offices of Popes Cardinalles Bishoppes Priestes their practise prouing daily my words therein to be most true how dare any mā that hath any feare of God once say or think that they in their offices haue any affinity with the Apostles or any Apostolicke man Light darknes are not more differing the one from the other then the offices of Apostles Euāgelists Prophets Pastours Doctours in the ancient primitiue Apostolick Church differeth from these offices of theirs Secondly whereas I sayed though yet they could which now you see they cannot truely say that they succeed the Apostles Apostolicke men in place person and office yet they were neuer the nearer my reasons thereof are these First I finde that wicked people wicked Priests in the scriptures often haue had this kinde of succession to pleade for themselues against the true Prophets and against Christ himselfe as you may see Ierem. 7. vers 4. cap. 8. vers 8. Iohn 8. v. 44. Vriah the Priest in King Ahaz time had this successiō frō Aaron and yet he to please that Idolatrous king set vp cōtrary to the commandement of the Lord an altar according to the patterne that the King had sent him of one that hee had seene at Damascus 2. King 16.10.11 The high Priests that withstoode alwaies Christ his doctrine and in the ende crucified him had this kinde of sucession yet none of these or their doings were any thing the more iustifiable for this Againe though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorū cōfesses that the Greekes haue beene scismatiques and heretiques this 500. yeares yet he all the sort of them of any reading know that not they only but also the Patriarches of Antioch and Alexandria and the Bishops of sundry other famous Churches in the world all which likewise they holde bee scismatiques and heretiques can doe make as great shew of this kinde of succession for the countenancing of their ministery and Churches as they themselues for they knowe that the Patriarch of Constantinople doeth deduce his locall and personall succession from Andrew the Apostle that the Patriarch of Antioch now sitting at Damascus doeth likewise his from Peter which he may doe more certainly then the Popes when they sate at Auinion could for it is euident Gal. 2. ver 11. euen by the scripture it selfe that Peter was at Antioch so is it not that he was at Rome In like maner they knowe that the Patriarch of Alexandria now holding his seate at Alcairum deriues his from the Euangelist Saint Marke And ignorant they are not that the Arrians preuailing as they did and in the ende hauing got the most seats of Bishops to be furnished with men of their dānable opinion that they for that time were able to holde this plea aswell as themselues and yet I am sure they will graūt that none of these were therfore or are therfore to be allowed iustified They will say I am sure for so I finde thē plainly to reply in their writings yea euen Iohn de Albine himselfe afterward Cap. 7. that though these all can and doe plead succession in place person and office that yet it cannot iustifie them because not onelie they haue helde some of them detestable heresies but presently also doe still Indeede I must needs confesse that I read that Macedonius Nestorius and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right successiō by their heresies at Constantinople that Paulus Samosatenus did the like at Antioch and that Dioscorus and Petrus Moggus did likewise at Alexanderia And
I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
polluted prophaned Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar in coÌ„mitting abhominatioÌ„ before the Lord though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests froÌ„ AaroÌ„ Againe though Ezechiah succeeding Ahaz for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominatioÌ„s wherw t his father had defiled it yet wheÌ„ he was dead his son Manasses his son Amon brought it to as il an estate as euer it was in so much that froÌ„ the beginning of Manasses raign vnto the 18 of Iosiahs the booke of the law of the Lord was lost which was wel nigh 80 years for theÌ„ it is noted that Hilkiâ—h the priest found it 2. King 22. In Manasses his time it is euideÌ„t Idolatry opeÌ„ly preuailed the whole Synagogue saue a few prophets their folowers erred If we proceed during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon what visible appareÌ„t shew of any successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors caÌ„ we finde the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religioÌ„ Was not their teÌ„ple then destroied consequently did not the publick exercise of their religioÌ„ which for the most part was tied theruÌ„to cease as it was prophesied by Hosea Ca. 3. therfore lameÌ„ted by Ieremy Ca. 3. LaÌ„ WheÌ„ Christ our sauiour caÌ„e into the world surely then God had his Church For it is a most certaine article of our faith that since it begaÌ„ it hath neuer ceased nor neuer shal yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there theÌ„ in possession of souÌ„o religioÌ„ Had not they as euideÌ„tly appeareth by the stories writeÌ„ by the EuaÌ„gelists that were in the visible personal succession corrupted the doctrine of the Messias both concerning his person and office so that they were the deadliest enemies that he had But you wil say perhaps that though these thinges were thus in the Church in the time of the olde Testament yet it may not be so in the Church now in the time of the new And why so Howsoeuer otherwise there be some differeÌ„ce betwixt the Church then and now in respect of the more cleare reuelation now then then of the doctrine of the Messias whereof that Heb. 8.6 is by soÌ„e vnderstood yet in this respect you shal neuer be able by the word writeÌ„ or any true story to proue any necessary difference vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people his seruice in great part to their temple and that he had ordained amoÌ„gst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so that the Church theÌ„ had more right to plead visible succession then now In the meane time thus much is gained by these stories of the Church in the time of the olde testament that this outward clearenes visible succession you talke of is not an inseparable note of the true Church for therby we haue seene it seperated ofteÌ„times from it And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experieÌ„ce you would see grauÌ„t that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist and that very great and effectual And least you should babishly foolishly as many of you doe vnderstand this of an Antichrist that towards the end of the world should come and raigne seduce men 3 yeares an halfe marke that here Paul telleth vs in his time that this mistery of iniquity did already worke which it did in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith partly by the workes of the law as it appeareth by the Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things as could not be brought to passe in that space lastly consider that he teacheth that though he should be detected and fal into a consuÌ„ptioÌ„ by the Spirit of Gods mouth yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming All which make it most euident that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity which should trouble the Church theÌ„ yours of 3 years an halfe continuaÌ„ce But least yet this notwitstaÌ„ding you should imagine that the fulfilling of this prophecy your faÌ„sie of perpetual clearnes vniuersality of the church may staÌ„d alwaies togither S. Iohn in his ReuelatioÌ„ describing as you al must coÌ„fesse the state of the Church seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed DragoÌ„ driuen into the wildernes and there glad to be fed for a season Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot the true patterne of your Romish prelacy by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist his kingdome committing fornication not with a fewe but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth not ruling or sitting ouer a few but as the Angel there expoundeth the waters whereon she was seene to sit people multitudes natioÌ„s toÌ„gues Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew that after Christ there should grow such a defection froÌ„ the fayth in the world by the means of Antichrist that during the florishing of his kingdome the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers small visibility and shew in the eies of the world Which we say and constantly are able to defend hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats Besides view the stories of the church the Cronicles of times and you shal be driuen to confesse that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses Re. 11 to testifie to the trueth that they neuer could be extinguished quite by TyraÌ„ts yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew doe witnes that Diocletian Iouius and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined when they caused them to bee erected that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions that they thereupon caused to bee engraued they set theÌ„ vp euen of purpose to brag that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished as they terme it the superstitioÌ„ of Christ Which they would neuer haue done if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them and had knowen their names and where to haue found them If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished wee shall read that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato meaning Athanasius Ecclesiast Hist Theodoreti lib. 2. cap 16. whereby it appeareth that then the
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
will shal bee founde flockes of goates and not of sheepe and foxes and wolues seeking the destruction of the sheepe rather then true sheepeheardes But you would make the Reader beleeue that Salomon in this place by you cyted out of the first of the Canticles doeth teach the true Church safelie alwaies to pitch her tentes and to feede by the visible and apparent succession of pastours which from age to age can leade her without leauing her by the waie euen to Christes time Which you saie yours can doe and ours cannot boldlie aduouching that vnlesse we be not ashamed to lie wee cannot shew where our Church or Religion was an hundreth yeares agoe and that wee cannot denie but Luther began to preach our new Gospell in the yeare 1517. And thus againe partlie by this note of visible succession of pastours and partly by vpbrayding vs with certaine differences of opinions amongst vs about the maner of Christes presence and diuerse and sundrie fantasticall heresies that of late daies haue sprung vp and beene reuiued you labour to iustifie your Synagogue of Rome and to condemne our Church of Christ which thinges you harpe vpon very much and often afterwarde in this your treatise Wherefore to aunswere you to all these thinges here once for all first I tell you you offer violence to Salomons wordes in making them to containe a prophesie of any such perpetuall and visible succession of flockes and pastours in the possession of one trueth as you inferre thereupon and make it the speciall marke and note to discerne Christes true Church from all that falsely bee so called For then it should bee contrarie to that view of the state of Christes true Church which I haue set downe vnto you and prooued by infallible arguments in the first Chapter which may not be seâ—ing the scripture alwaies agreeth with it selfe And yet the Church may haue good vse of Salomons aduise giuen her here in her greatest ruins and interruptions of her ordinarie and visible forme and beautie in looking to the visible flockes and sheepheardes that were before that God so chastised her as in Achaz time in looking to and following those that were in Dauids and Salomons timeâ— in Manasses and Ammons time in looking to and following those in Ezechiaths Iehosaphats times in the time of the captiuity in looking to following those that were in Iosiahs time And yet doe not so take me as though I thought that either Christes true Church or the true sheepheards thereof did at anie time vtterâ—â— cease or faile for I am perswaded they neuer did nor shall But this onelie is the thing that I now say that though this place of the Canticles doeth shewe that in no time there is any true flockâ— of Christ but there hath gone before a flocke and shepheardes which that may safely followe euen to the finding of Christ yet it proueth not that there hath alwaies immediately gone before it from time to time some visible so apparent flockes and shepheards one immediately succeeding another as that the names of the sheepe and shepheardes are alwaies famously knowen and therefore easily to be reckoned vp of euery one which are the thinges which you seeme to inferre hereof and therefore require of vs to bee done or else you would faine make the Reader beleeue that wee neither are the Church haue the trueth nor true right ministers thereof Wherein many waies you offer vs great wrong for after you your selfe distrusting belike that in any seate or line of Bishops without interruption this can be performed speaking of your line of Popes whereof all the sort of you bragge in this case most cap. 8. to vpholde and drawe along your right succession you tell vs flatly you meane not when you speak thereof onely of them but of al Bishops elswhere that they may continue it in the interruptions of that liue somewhere else and yet at our handes you require vnder the penalty aforesaied that we should froÌ„ age to age and from person to person orderly succeeding one another deduce ours For when we say it was continued alwaies by some in some other places when wee can no longer finde it in your Romish see whereinto by little and little you haue craftily â—rept and wherein for many hundred yeares before men of our Church and Religion sate and taught you reiect that our answere as a shift Another wrong that you offer vs herein is this that your Antichristian Synagogue hauing according to the prophesie Reuel 12. persecuted our flocke into the wildernes with the sheepherdes thereof you require that wee should euen in respect of such decaied distressed times of the church giue you as euident demonstration of our flockes and sheepheardes as may bee giuen thereof in the florishing and peaceable state of the same For there is no reason in requiring that in the decaies and ruines of the Church which accompanieth alwaies the Church in her prosperous and standing estate Besides herein you offer vs the greater wrong in that notwithstanding it be graunted of vs that both perpetuall continuance of the Catholique faith and also some kinde of succession therefore of teachers be necessary alwaies for the continuation of the Church yet you cannot but knowe especially seing that prophesie before named that also 2. Thes 2. must bee fulfilled of the church of Christ in respect of some time of her soiourning here on earth that thereupon it followeth not that therefore their succession is visible and demonstrable alwaies in your sence or else wee must yeelde that there were none such For who is so simple but hee is resolued that all men now aliue come by lineall succession from some of Adams children and yet fewe or none can bee found that can rightlie no not the skilfullest harrold of them all deduce their pedagree from thence Must it therefore followe that there hath not alwaies beene for all that a certaine lineall descent if you should thus inferre euery one might laugh at your follie For long processe of time distance of place betwixt some of our progenitours and vs lacke of Cronicles or the neglect of such genealogyes in them alterations of names and countries and diuerse such like things maketh the one not onely hard but for the most part impossible and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other Euen so in this our present question most certaine it is there haue alwaies beene both flockes sheepherdes to continue both the trueth Christes church For that wee graunt is necessarie but yet through continuance of time force of your Antichristian persecution distance perhaps of the flockes and sheepeheards in place from vs that God in some ages vnder your tyranny hath vsed to continue his church by and lacke of faithfull and carefull writers to cronicle such matters especially your wouluish and foxy sheepheardes beeing alwaies watchfull and mindefull to their vttermost either to blot out their memories quite in not
suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
since Augustine the monkes comming into England as I haue saied and for 300 yeares after him your glorious succession must faile there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least betwixt the opinions that your pastors and doctors hold now and them that were held then Take heede therefore whiles you measure thus to vs and so seeke to disgrace them whose names we cite that the same be not measured to you againe so the necke of your visible Succession be broken to the perill of the life of your Church which draweth her breath thereby Now to come to your disgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius and your laying to our charge all the heresies that haue sprung vp since Luther began first to preach against you therein do you vs manifold wrong For who knoweth not that it is no strange or new thing to finde the deare seruants of God and the true members of Christs Church sometimes and in some things differing and hoatly dissenting in opinion Doe we not read Mat. 16. that one thing seemed good to Peter and the contrary seemed and was indeed good in Christs iudgement Did not Peter take one course and Paul another at Antioch Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharpely And finde we not Act. 15. Paul and Barnabas growen to that heat of contention about the receiuing againe or refusing of Iohn Marke that they parted companies And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times and view the state of the Church euen in the purest times thereof we shall finde it no strange thing to see diuersities of opinions and therefore also hoat contentions betwixt those whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church Betwixt Polycrates Victor the East and West Churches Irenaeus and certaine other Bishops of France and some Popes the contention about the obseruation of Easter was such Euse 5.21.22.23.24 that one side excommunicated another that diuers Synods were held to appease it and yet it cōtinued 300 yeares more And who knoweth not that there was contention betwixt Cypriā other Bishops of Africke Cornelius Stephanus Bishops of Rome for that they euē thē at Rome encroched too much as the other thought to intermeddle within the iurisdictiōs of the Bishops of Africke in receiuing condēned excōmunicated fugitiues that ran to Rome frō thence Neither was the controuersie small betwixt them about the rebaptizing of those that had beene before onely baptized by heretiques For proofe of both which points I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first booke of Epistles and to the first Epistle of his second booke and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seuēth booke Basil also and the Church of Caesarea as it is well knowen were at hoat contention about Ecclesiasticall songes and ceremonies Theophilus of Alexandria and Chrysostome of Constantinople had betweene them a violent and troublesome contention and great part taking there was of both sides and that along time Cyrillus of Alexandria wrote against Theodoret in a controuersie of Catholicke religion Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Aegypt and one Peter of Alexandria and their followers of both sides there arose and continued a long whyle to the great trouble of the Church a lamentable contention All Ecclesiasticall stories for the most part haue with griefe made report of these yea downe from Christ to the age wherein euery one of them wrote it too plainly appeares in them that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares but it hath had new contentions and those many not onely betwixt heretiques and catholickes but also euen amongst those that otherwise of both sides were to bee reputed sounde Christians Hierom and Augustine as all men will confesse were in their times worthy so to be accounted and yet it appeareth in their works that there was great diuersity of opinions and that in many things of great moment betwixt them Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome of whom I spake before were both famous Christians and yet the stories of their tymes shew that they were bitter enemies It is notoriously knowen that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the councell of Nice Constantine by the bookes offered vnto him one against an other found that they then had amongst themselues many contentions and varieties of opinions and infinite it were to reckon vp all the examples that might easily be found to this end Indeede I reade for these and such like differences the Iewes and Heathen people mocked at the Christians and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion seuenth Stromat Clement Alexandrini But I neuer read that either then or since euer any sounde Christian though for this cause they tooke occasion to mourne yet that they or any of them tooke occasion to condemne either the one side or the other or both as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ For notwithstanding these differences they saw that they ioyned togither otherwise as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes And that they whom you call Lutherans Zuinglians doe so the booke of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches that hereabouts professe the Gospell doeth make it most manifest and euident And therfore for any force that this reason carieth with it this their differēce which is in effect only about the maner of the presēce of Christ in the Sacramēt they both may be mēbers of the true anciēt Catholick Church as wel as these other whō I haue named Another wronge that herein they offer vs is this that beeing themselues at variance amongst themselues and hauing had many and great contentions and yet hauing still some about as great a matter of religion as this that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies like hypocrites they are so busie with the moate in ours For who so readeth the histories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes besides a number of hoat and contentious schismes troubling all Christendome for many yeares togither yea sometimes fourty years continuing betwixt their Popes Antipopes he shall finde it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope to contrary the proceedings of his predecessour as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that and therefore poore Gratian tooke a combersome worke in hand to make a concorde of such discording Canons Their religion considered it is one of the greatest controuersies that can be whither the pope or a generall councell haue the superiour authority and so must be the carier of the Churches tongue to decide and determine controuersies and yet euen in this controuersie they are so at concorde that the councell of Constance and Basil determined one way and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way and yet both sides hath his stout champions The Scotistes and Thomistes many an
according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
you would make it But be it though you only say both proue neither of theÌ„ against theÌ„ that they held it in the worst sence now stil that also as you say in certaine other smaller things they hold otherwise then was held by Chrysostom Cyrill Basil Athanasius yet I say will staÌ„d vnto it that as daÌ„gerous heresies mo in nuÌ„ber be held of your own coÌ„pany against the truth of Christs person office theÌ„ they hold in all in far more greater points of weight are you gone froÌ„ the ancient fathers that haue beene in the latin church wtin the first 600. yeares theÌ„ they haue done froÌ„ theirs And therefore in the meane time whiles you will ioyne this issue with vs vntil you haue disproued this my assertioÌ„ by the same reason you reiect their succession will we perseuere in reiecting yours Now whereas you secondly imagine that we labour to weakeÌ„ ouerthrow the force of your argument taken from succession by laiâ—ng out the lewde liues negligence in doing of their duties in many of those pastours Bishops of whose succession you boast true it is that prouoked by your too too great brags of your personall succession by your immoderate railing against some of our pastours and ministers whom yet you cannot staine but with false and maliciously deuised tales sometimes some of vs haue beene occasioned to cast your owne dunge into your faces And we being able as wee are euen out of your owne stories so iustly to lay such a number of most notorious thinges to the charge of verie many of your greatest Prelates and the matter being notorious that fewe or none of your Popes and Archprelates euer take it vpon them by preaching to feede Gods people which is the principall duety of a Bishop we thinke still that that which we say and obiect against you in this behalfe may iustly cause you to be ashamed of such fathers so to cease both your bragge of succeeding them your railing against vs. To disproue the force of this our allegation you dispute the matter as though we went about to proue that the succession of trueth hath ceased in the Church because we thus obiect against the persons of many of your predecessours whereas we most constantly holde beleeue that it hath alwaies continued and that though you grow ten times worse then any that hath beene before you it shall stil vnto the worldes ende But withall we tell you it hath beene continued by others and not by those wicked and negligent pastours and predecessours of yours that we speake against For as their liues were deuilish so was their doctrine Antichristian as yours their childrens is Too too foolish therefore is it that you write that wee doe no lesse offende God in laying forth the liues of sundry of your Popes thinking thereby to ouerthrow the succession of the catholique Ecclesiasticall faith then if one should go about to ouerthrow the promise of Christ to the Patriarches because of the bad liues of diuerse of their successours For we holde that the Succession of the Catholique faith hath continued and will to verify that promise of Christ Matthew 16. though neuer so many of your popes go to the deuil Neither did we euer in laying forth their most filthy liues thinke thereby to ouerthrow the Succession of faith for we neuer tooke them to haue any society or coniunction with it since they became such But you still according to your old woont taking it for giuen which shal neuer be offred you that their personall succession and the catholique trueth went alwaies togither which we doe most earnestly deny imagined that wee could not speake against the one but that therein also we sought to ouerthrow the other when as we are perswaded that of al other persons vnder heauen your Popes for this long time haue beene Sathans most forcible meanes to ouerthrow both the Apostolique trueth and Catholique Church Wherefore you see you might wel haue spared your paynes in the greatest part of this Chapter and so let any that hath witte iudge whither it be not great folly for any man to be so simple as to seeke to be the childe of such fathers as neither had honestie nor any soundnesse of religion as many of your Popes for any thing that you haue yet saied to the contrary haue beene whose children yet how bad soeuer you would haue men to be The VIII Chapter VPon Moises Chaire there sitteth sayeth our Sauiour Christ who not the godliest meÌ„ of the world but the Scribes Pharises doe that they saie but not that that they doe But if our new Gospellers had beene in those daies they would haue tolde Christ that his commandement was not to be obserued because the liues of Anna and Caiphas were not correspondent vnto those of Moises Aaron for the first came to the vocation of priesthood being called of God but the last attained to it by the vocation of their a As many of yours doe or by worse means or else your owne frends bely theÌ„ purses and yet notwithstanding rather then our Sauiour would breake this harmonie of the misticall bodie of the Church he was not onely content to permit that Caiphas should execute his office although hee was vnworthy as one that came to it by Simonie but rather he did confirme his pontificat with the gift of the Spirit of Prophesying with the which he was b That is grosse blasphemy as fullie inspired as euer was Dauid Esay or any of the rest and all to teach vs that that I haue alreadie saied I meane that the Ecclesiastical order the administration of the Sacraments doe not consist in the good or euill liues of the pastours but onelie of God and of his word interpreted by them As touching that that appertaineth to our health God hath no regard to the life of the magistrate temporal or ecclesiasticall for he can aswell serue him with an euill person to doe good to the common wealth as of a good as the godlie prophesies of the wicked Balaam doe well witnesse Num. 24. And here is to be noted that when we talke of the succession of Bishops and of the doctrine continuing in the Church we doe not meane onely to talke of the c Indeede you doe wisely to call for helpe of others for otherwise the necke of your successioÌ„ hath often bene shamefully broken Popes but of all the Bishops and other hauing Ecclesiastical charges not onelie at Rome but thorow al other places where the true preaching and right administration of the Sacraments be vsed And therefore you doe pretend in vaine to proue that the aboue mentioned succession hath beene interrupted by the discention of Popes Antipopes and by the Ciuil warres that haue bene at Rome in times past For although that the Sea of Rome was vacant for a time the Chaires of Bishops in France Spaine England and
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
of those words Except yee eat the flesh of the son of mā c. killeth therefore he teacheth vs there spiritually to vnderstand them Who vpon these wordes of Christ gathereth that no wicked man can eate the flesh of christ vpon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part he granteth the wicked may eat that when it hath beene eatē in the end it is auoided into the place of easement Hom 15. vpon Mat. Athanasius noteth the christ made mention of his ascension Iohn 6. to wtdraw thē from corporall fleshly vnderstāding of his words vpon these words whosoeuer speaketh a word against the son c. But Chrys goeth plainly to work saith in his 11. Hom vpon Mat. that the very body of christ himselfe is not in the holy vessels but the mistery sacrament thereof is therin conteined And therefore in his 46. Hom. vpon Iohn sheweth vs the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing Iohn 6. therby warned vs to take heede of carnall and fleshly vnderstanding of his words which is to vnderstand them saieth he simply and in his 4. Homil vpon the 4. to the Corinth he telleth vs that the body of Christ is the carion where the Eagles will bee he nameth eagles saieth he to shew that who so will approch to his body must mount aloft haue no dealing with the earth nor be drawē downward but must euermore fly vp c. For this is a table of Eagles saieth he that fly on high not of Iaies that creepe beneath Christ tooke bread which cōforteth mās hart that he might represēt therby his body bloud saith Hier. vpō the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism receued the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacramēt drīk the similitude of christs bloud saieth Ambrose in his 4 booke 4 c. of the sacraments Ciprian de vnctione chrismatis writeth thus Christ in his last supper gaue vnto his Apostles bread wine which he called his body bloud but on the Crosse hee gaue his very body to be wounded with the hands of the souldiers that the Apostles might declare vnto the world how in what maner the bread may be the flesh bloud of Christ And the maner straight way he declareth thus that those things which do signifie those things which be signified by thē may be both called by one name Fulgētius in his booke to King Thrasimund hath these words This cup or chalice is the new Testamēt that is to say doth signifie the new Testament Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainely writeth that Christ honoured the signes and representatiōs which are seene with the name of his body and bloud not changing their natures but adding grace to nature and yet more plainely in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus the mystical signes after sanctification go not from their nature for they tary in their former substance figure and forme Yea euen Gelasius a Pope about the yeare 500. against Eutiches is as plaine saying in the Eucharist the substāce and nature of bread and wine cease not For the image and similitude of the body and bloud is celebrated in those mysteries And Bertram in his treatise of this matter writen in the time of Carolus Caluus laboureth by many proofes testimonies to shew that bread and wine remaine still and that we are here to followe Christ in a figure and mistery And Bede vpon Luke 22. saith because bread doeth comfort mans heart and wine doeth make good bloud in his body therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christs body and the wine to Christs bloud The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. booke De sermonum proprietate Emissenus de consecrat Dist 2. cap. Quia corpus compareth the conuersion in the Sacrament to the conuersion in a man regenerated which we all know is in quality and not in substance There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds time about the yeare of the Lord 996 being then as some write Bishop of Canterbury wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and bloud of Christ then manna and the water of the rocke was Christ who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies and in that which was to be read on Easter day there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation and your reall presence And since these times you know well inough wee haue had many from time to time yea mo thē you well like of that haue beene as flat and direct against your kinde of reall presence as we are now This Master Foxes booke of Actes and Monuments hath made euident to all the world And it is famously knowen that before your Lateran Councel vnder Innocent the 3. in the yeare 1215. it was not decreed to bee as you now hold It appeareth also by the last session of the councell of Florence which is not much aboue 140. yeares ago that the Greeke Church vntill then stoode against your doctrine of transubstantiation which is the ground of your reall presence And Tonstall though otherwise a great man on your side yet in his booke of this sacrament saieth perhaps it had beene better to leaue euery man that would be curious concerning this matter of the maner how Christ is present to his owne coniecture as by his confession before the councel of Lateran it was left at libertie And Iohn Duns a frend of yours vpon the 4. booke of the sentences saieth that the wordes might haue beene expounded more plainely then by Transubstantiation if it had pleased the Church Gabriel Biell another great doctour vpon the canon of the masse in his 40. reading plainely confesseth that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible how the body of Christ is there whither by Trāsubstantiatiō or Consubstantiation Euen so your great Bishop Iohn Fisher writing against Luthers booke of the captiuity of Babylō is enforced to confesse that he findeth not in Mathew nor any where els in the scripture any thing to proue that there is thereby the reall presence of Christ in your masse nor that whensoeuer a Priest shall go about that matter hee maketh the bread wine the body and bloud of Christ and so concludeth that he thinketh that euery man vnderstandeth that the certaintie of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospell as it doeth vpon the vse tradition and custome of the Church These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literall exposition of Christs words your new deuise of transubstantiation the onely piller and buttresse of your real presence and against your grosse and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouthes of all receiuers good and bad they may not bee denied to bee forcible against your reall presence For the cause thereof denied and taken away the effect must cease and if the
the vaine successioÌ„ of persons wherw t you decked yourselues they haue added the successioÌ„ of true doctrine with you had corrupted So that what good soeuer was in your vocatioÌ„ ours had it also besides since they haue had confirmatioÌ„ of their ministry amongst theÌ„selues and by the consent approbation of the people amongst whoÌ„ they haue ministred The XIII Chapter IF that the good doctor * Cip. 1. epist c. 6. S. Cyprian had beene in these our daies might he not well haue saied against your schollers that which he did write against a CipriaÌ„ cals him that he speakes against Nouatianus who was a Roman and the disciple of Nouatus of Africke That Nouatus Nouatianus were two seuerall persons it appeares in Ciprian lib. 2. ep st 8. 9. Nouatus there needed no other but insteede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius nomine mutato de vobis fabula narrabitur Seeing that the saied S. Ciprian doeth hold affirme that Nouatus ought to be accounted as no Bishop because he succeeded no body but rather that he did make himselfe a Bishop b These words you adde for they are not in Ciprian without any imposition of haÌ„ds Then to what purpose I praie you are ye of the opinion that c This is but your slader saying for both these were and so are wee able to proue that they had sufficient warrant for their calling Caluin Zuinglius are such faithfull ministers considering that they are as farre from prouing the confirmation of their ministrie as euer was Nouatus You will answere mee that you haue no neede of the imposition of hands of the Papists superstitious Idolaters infidels But this maketh your cause neuer the better for if you are so scrupulous by nature that it goeth against your consciences to come to kneele to our Bishops you should I say in tunes past haue required your ancient ministers to haue giuen you a warrant for the confirmation of your estate when one doeth demande of you since when your Religion began you are not content to claime the beginning froÌ„ the Apostles but rather stepping hardlie forwarde ye are not content to staie at Dauid or Abraham but you must needes fetch it from Abel d Yea euen from that doctrine that God taught Adam and Eue in Paradise though it grieue you yea from Adam And if one should spurre you forward you would go I knowe not whether Then seeing that your church is so ancient and that it hath indured till our daies if we will beleeue you it is not like to be true that it hath beene destitute altogether of ministers for although it be so that God did greatlie afflict the Israelites with the captiuitie of Babylon yet did he neuer leaue them without comfort of good doctours such as Daniel Ezechias e Whence proue you that they had there a proâ—â—er then named Abdias Or that there was then any Prop â—â—named Ezâ—chias but it may be you would haue saied Ezechiel Abdias and manie others Euen so you that thinke in your owne heades to bee the people of God I cannot thinke if it bee so hee would so haue giuen you ouer as to want ministers to comfort you in your afflictions and to ordeine your ministerie by the in position of handes f These 2. whiles they were yours and so others as Luther Lucer Capito Carolstadius OecolaÌ„padius and the rest had calling either to be priests or to be ordred by your owne Bishops or at least to be doctors of Diuinity by the vniuersitie wherein they were brought vp And after these two were ours the one had an ordinary calling by the presbytery magistrate and people of Geneuae the other of Zurich and so had the rest in the places where they taught What staies you that you doe not go to them seing that you haue nothing to doe with ours And if you say that you haue done so doe vs so much pleasure as to let vs heare their naÌ„es in what time they did florish or otherwise you maie pardon vs if wee giue no credit to your fained imaginations The XIII Chapter YOU boldly adde vnto Cyprians wordes these words without any impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds for neither where the other words of his with you recite are nor yet any where in that epistle doeth he once mention the ceremony of imposition of haÌ„ds Neither can Cyprians saying against Nouatianus whom you cal wrongfully and ignorantly Nouatus truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius seing they had as I haue read the ordinary calling vocation of the times wherin they liued euen from your selues For as for Caluin his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedrall church and a curateship in a towne hard by of a Bishop of yours where he was borne which would not haue beene giuen him vnles he had beene within orders I think And Zwinglius it is wel knoweÌ„ was a CanoÌ„ in the cathedral church of Zurich 2. or 3. years there liuing preaching before he was ours And so I read the other preached also in his cure before he was ours whereby it should seeme that the one had imposition of hands to holy orders as you terme them of some Bishop of France and the other of some Bishop likewise of Germany Now after when as by force of the trueth they grew to be of our Religion so came out of Babylon to vs they both were according to the order of those churches where they serued called orderly to the ministry of the Gospell where also they both succeeded others that went before them Neither of which could Nouatianus truely alleadge for himselfe and therefore Ciprian saith that he was neither in the church nor Bishop But seeing we account our church so ancient as that when we are asked when our Religion began we will say it hath beene euen from AdaÌ„ also that euer since it hath endured and continued you say it is not likely that it hath at any time beene altogether destitute of ministers For though God did afflict the Israelites for their sinnes with the captiuity of Babylon yet he did neuer leaue them without coÌ„fort of good doctours as Daniel Ezechiel Abdias and others therefore seing we haue nothing to do with yours we either haue or should haue sought them out haue taken imposition of hands of them which if we haue done you wish vs to tell you their names when and where they florished To answer you indeede for the substance of our Religion we say it is the same with God himselfe first taught AdaÌ„ in paradise For first he was taught to serue God not according to his owne will but according to the law that God gaue him Secondly he being found a traÌ„sgressour of that holy will of God after he was brought to see his sin the danger thereof he is sent for recouery by Gods promise only to the promised
wil he deny before his father in heauē And S. Paul doth saie Ro. 10. f And so haue ours all wayes in due time and place though to the losse of thousands of their liues done that with the hart one doth beleeue to iustice with the mouth one must cōfes to saluatiō g This is but your cuckowes song conteining neither trueth nor honesty But to saie the truth your religiō was not thē foūd out the Grādfathers great Grandfathers of Caluin had neuer dreāpt of the heresies that now their reformed childe hath set so newly abroach And therefore thinke it not strange if that those people that are not light headed send you to preach in new found landes as one that hath here at home giuen manifestlie iudgement against himselfe h Are you not ashamed to ly so impudently and to reason so foolishly confessing as wee haue alleadged aboue that the Church of God hath vsed the imposition of hands yours hath not done so and therefore it doeth follow that it is not of God that that doeth follow consequentlie is that it is of the deuil For we know that you allow i Neither would you but that your belly is your God and that you mind earthly things vnto which purposes that doctrine serueth you fitly no purgatorie I mean no meane betwene thē both The XIIII Chapter HOw you haue answered Caluin and proued your vocation to be of God by that which now the reader hath heard both parts say let him iudge Our answere to the like demande I haue giuē you Chap. 9. when you first called for it But hauing demanded this now againe of vs insteed of pursuing your demād as one that had streight forgotten what you saied you are in hand againe with our saying to your charge your popes bishops il liues with twise or thrise you were in hād wtal before where you haue your ful answer Herein you say in railing you giue vs the preeminēce but you do so but in words for indeed trueth as al your late books fraught with nothing more then this kinde of Rhetoricke to bring the seruants of God vniustly into hatred doe proue none cā go beyond you herein And as for that which we say of your Popes bishops your own storie-writers and manifest experience doe iustifie to be true therfore cānot iustly be coūted railing But you find fault with vs that hauing writē the lewd liues of your bishops Popes on the one side of the leafe we set not down on the other side in the meane time the succession of those good ones that we had This law you nether haue nor cā alwaies obserue your selfe For though you haue had many good Popes bishops yet a great while your good ones haue bene as hard to finde as cole-black swans And yet you please your selfe and your frends that take pleasure in your giving scoffing in asking vs when your Popes behaued thēselues il at Rome who were the holy doctors at Geneua whē your doctors preached against God vnder what signe our ministers lodged al this kind of Rhetorick of yours is groūded vpō a false principle namely that the Church and ministers thereof haue bene alwaies must be so visible as that in al times demonstration may be made thereof cōtrary to these often alleadged prophecies 2. Thess 2. Reu. 12. 17. And the thing that deceiueth you nourisheth in you this errour is that you expoūd the places of scripture which are vttered concerning the continuāce spiritual beauty of the church of the elect the true heauenly Hierusalē spouse of Christ as spokē of the cōtinuance of particuler Churches or of the outward order state of the Church militant onely and that you either wilfully or otherwise cannot distinguish betwixt the being and continuing of the Church and her pastors and the maner of their being and cōtinuing and so you construe those places that proue her being and their continuing as though therupō followed your maner of visible and apparent being also as though there were no being or continuing of the Church but in your maner Whereas in Israel in Ahabs time you haue heard both the Church and ministers therof ther continued in that euen in that kingdōe Obadiah had hid 100 prophets and God had reserued vnto himselfe 7000. that had not bowed their knees to Baal yet not in your maner For Eliah was not able to make such demonstration thereof who they were and where they were as you require of vs for he thought himselfe alone 1. King 18. 19. O but you very like a diuine proue out of Mat. 10. Ro. 10. because Christ hath saied him that denieth me before mē wil I deny before my heauenly father and Paul requireth aswel confession with the mouth to saluation as beleife with the hart to iustification that therefore they could not be faithful beleeuers because they did hide themselues As though euery one were a denier of Christ that hideth himselfe frō the fury of the persecutour Or as though none confesse with their mouth to saluation that so hide themselues What think you then of the 100 prophetes before named And of Eliah himselfe who as it appeareth in those places hid themselues from Ahab and Iesebels furie Haue you forgotten that the same Christ saieth in the same Chap to his Apostles If they persecute you in one City flie to another And that the same Paul himselfe did sundry times by hiding himselfe from the hands of his persecutours saue his life As you may read Act. 17. and elswhere Who though he were assured in a vision by reuelation from God that with safety of life hee should come to testifie of Christ and his Gospel at Rome yet refused not al good and lawful means to haue himselfe conueied away and so to escape the hands of his bloudy persecutors the Iewes which had solemnly boūd thēselues with an oath that they would neither eat nor drinke til they had killed him Act. 23.11.12 Your diuinity is not so simple I thinke but that you vnderstand that as long as a Christian carieth that minde and purpose that wheresoeuer he is he will be ready boldly to yeeld a sound confession of his faith and therefore when he is called thereunto and iustly occasioned is ready to perfourme that purpose of his and doeth it indeed that man cannot bee saied to deny Christ or not to confesse him with his mouth though by flying and hiding himselfe as long as he may lawfully he seeke to keepe himselfe for the further good of Gods Church out of the handes of his persecutours And therefore you were much to blame by thus wresting of these places of Scriptures to seeke to abuse your Reader But our Religion you say was not found out then and Caluins great grandfather had not once dreamed of his Religion and therefore no maruell though they could not be found that were the
then to lay to the charge of the Christians that they conspired amongst themselues against the state of the common weale and the ciuill and supreme magistrates thereof And therefore we can the more patiently abide this your dealing with vs in that herein we see we are no otherwise dealt withall by you then Gods people Christ his Apostles and other his faithfull seruants haue beene dealt withall in ancient time by your predecessours But the Lordes name be praised for it howsoeuer it hath pleased you in thus charging vs to intende the deposition and displacing of ciuill magistrates to conforme your selues to the ancient enemies of Gods people our doings in those places where our Religion hath beene longest settled doeth euidently in the eies of the world acquite vs hereof For in such places who seeeth not that the ciuill magistrates togither with it haue alwaies and yet doe honourably and quietly enioy their places and dignities Yea this wee dare bee bolde to say that the Christian Kings Princes and magistrates that haue giuen best entertainment vnto it finde by most manifest experience that both it and the professours therof haue better established them in their thrones and more aduanced them in their dignities then euer they were or could be by yours For now they are absolute Kings and Princes according to their right where as yours made thē to hold their kingdomes as the Popes vassals and so but at the curtesie and deuotion of a forrainer and of an intollerable proud and vnsatiable vsurping Prelate and now their treasure is kept at home to the strengthening greatly of their kingdomes and dominions which by your Romish Religiō gouernment was woont a 1000. waies most insatiably in infinit quantity yearly to the wonderfull weakning thereof to be conueied to Rome And whereas then by meanes of your auricular confession the secrets of euery Prince where that was vsed was often to the great peril of their states made knowen to many vndiscreet blabs by them their means to their forreine head the Pope and so he was thereby alwaies the better inabled for the furtherance of his owne deuises to preuent crosse theirs by the banishing of that Romish stratageme Princes coūsels secrets are kept at home in secret as they should to the great good of thē their cuntries And lastly by our Religion according to the examples of Dauid Salomō Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosiah Constātine Theodosius they are in possession of their full authority to cōmāde for Religiō in matters ecclesiastical aswel their subiects of the clergy as the rest whereas by your Religion they were supreme gouerners vnder God for matters ciuil only had their cleargy so exēpted from them and their iurisdiction that howsoeuer they had their bodies in their kingdomes to enioy the promotions thereof they had neither their bodies nor soules in further subiection then would stand with the pleasure and profit of the forraine potentate the Pope By meanes whereof Anselme Stephē Lanckton Thomas Becket and sundry other proude prelates of this land haue so stucke to the Pope against their soueraigne kings at home here in England that in comparison of the Pope they haue set their King at naught to the wonderfull trouble and disquiet of the whole land as notoriously appeares in our Cronicles Which things considered I thinke you may long tell Princes that you and your religion is frendly to them and that we and ours is hurtful vnto them before any of them that be wise beleeue you Truely I cannot but wonder at your grosse hypocrisie in this Chapter in that you are so earnest and busie not onely to proue it vnlawful and mōstrous how bad soeuer they that be in authority be to refuse to yeelde duety submission vnto them but also to lay to our charge that we haue an intention to place and displace ciuill magistrates at our pleasure For I cannot perswade my selfe that your skill in diuinity was so small but you were resolued for all this that the obedience and subiection taught in these places here quoted by you or any where else in the scriptures is not so infinite and absolute as that thereby subiects are bound to doe whatsoeuer by higher powers be it good or bad they are commanded to doe For how could it be possible that a man of your place should forget the vsual limitation in the Lord or that you should not remember that God must be obeied before man Neither yet can I thinke that you were ignorant but that the very same thing which here you charge vs with as with a grieuous fault hath bene and yet is openly practised and taught publickly to be very lawfull in your Church of Rome Hereof I am sure D. Allen a great man of your side in his 5 Chapter of his defence of English catholicks reckōs vp in a great brauery and bragge sundry Kings and Emperours by force deposed by the Pope And indeed it appears most euidently in sundry Chronicles that at their pleasure a long time they haue most shamefully misused Christian Princes potentates of the world For though they were and are beholden to the Christian Roman Emperours for their first aduancement from the state of poore persecuted bishops to the state of patriarches in these westerne parts yet in processe of tyme when the seat of the empire was remooued to Constantinople these westerne parts were gouerned by an exarch at Rauenna they through the help of certaine Kings of the Lombards and others in tokē of thankefulnesse to the ancient Emperours of Rome quite extinguished their Empire and authority in these west parts And in the ende not contented with that which they had incroched by the ruine of the Empire through the helpe of the Goths Vandals Lombards others seeking thereby their further aduācement Pope Zachary about the yeare 743. found the meanes to cause Childericke then King of France to bee deposed and he set vp Pipine in his roome whom he his successour Stephen the 2. aduanced to the Empire and therefore this Pipine Charles the great and Lodouicke his sonne which three immediatly succeeded one another in the new Empire thus translated vnto them by the Pope to gratify the Pope for the same they brought the Lombards and others that before beganne to be somewhat to sausie with the Popes vnder and bestowed vpon his see as Blondus Volateran note very many rich and great Ilands cities countries shires townes and prouinces whereby he was mightely aduanced Yet for all these great benefits receaued by the line of Pipine when his successours began not to be pliable enough as they thought to their becke in making warre against the Princes of Italy which began to pinch them for their wrong-gotten goods Gregorie the fifth about the yeare 1002. practiseth with the Germans to bring the Empire to them from the line of France and so Otho was set vp Emperour But when these German Emperours began
of his trueth out of his written word to call you from this newe found pretended religion of yours to the ancient and true catholicke faith which we haue learned out of the scriptures and of alsound antiquity you not onely burst out into this vaine and monstrously false brags of the antiquity of yours and nouelty of ours but also knowing in your own consciences that your folly therein wil soone be descried you cal then for miracles to confirme and warrant this our commission by which you would faine proue to be as necessarie for vs in this case as it was for Moses in his time thereby to confirme his Wherunto I say as vpon the like occasion S. Augustine said in his time de ciuitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoeuer yet seeketh after miracles that so he may beleeue he himselfe is a mōstrous miracle who the world beleeuing yet beleeues not For if our doctrine be the same that the Apostles taught as we are alwaies ready and by GODS grace able to proue it to be by the vndoubted woord of God then their miracles are so many seales of this our doctrine and so it beeing thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now by new miracles againe But you seeme to take it for granted that we stand either very much or altogither vpon the extraordinarines of our vocation and therfore supposing that such a vocation must alwaies be confirmed by miracles you call for them the rather thus earnestly at our hands Concerning which point I haue tolde you already that though in such ruins of the church as you had brought it vnto it bee no strange thing with God to stir vp men extraordinarily to seeke the reformation thereof as he did many of the Prophets yet neither the first ministers which in these later daies he hath vsed to this end amongst vs nor those that he hath vsed since to go on with that which the others began rely onely vpon an extraordinary calling for as I haue shewed both the one and the other haue had outward ordinary calling Besides you must vnderstand that a man may haue an extraordinary calling as had Nahū Abdia diuers other of the prophets who yet you cannot shew euer wrought any miracles to confirme their calling withal And to vse Chrysostomes words which he vsed against such as you in that commentary vpon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father vpon him what miracle wrought Iohn Baptist which instructed so many and great Cities For the Euangelist saieth he wrought none Iohn 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say that he had no lawfull vocation or good commission Againe you know by that which is writen Deut. 13. 2. Thes 2. and elswhere that false prophets yea Antichrist himselfe may and shal seeke to seduce men and to draw men from God by miracles therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof that if notwithstanding they suffer themselues the rather to be peruerted thereby they may be voide of al excuse Wherefore seeing there haue bene sundry true prophets extraordinarily called that yet haue wrought no miracles and also many false prophets that haue wrought them and may doe agayne to what purpose should you thus call for miracles as though they straight might lawfully be refused that worke them not and they safely alwayes followed that doe them Howsoeuer you seeme to pretend that if we should worke miracles you would beleeue vs yet certayne it is that if we should worke neuer so many you would as little for all that beleeue vs as the blinde and superstitious Iewes beleeued Christ and his Apostles for all the myracles wrought by them but this is onely a shift of yours as long as you may to dazell the eyes of the simple For questionles if myracles would serue the turne beside sundry miracles indeede which the stories doe testifie haue beene wrought by God in the protection and propagation of the religiō which we now professe euē this is a miracle of miracles that Luther lyuing in such a time as he did should doe as he did to so great effect wtout miracle yet in the end maugre al his enemies which were many mighty to die quietly as he did in his bed So that al these things considered it appeareth I hope sufficiētly to the indifferent reader that you haue no such aduantage against vs for miracles and you pretend But because your obiectiō in this behalfe is so egerly prosecuted by you I wil not refuse to follow you frō step to step to yeeld you a more particuler āswer to whatsoeuer you haue sayed in this matter First therefore whereas you would insinuate to your reader that we doe wrong in comparing the misery that the poor people were in vnder your Popes to the misery that the people of Israel were in in Aegipt vnder Pharao their deliuerāce frō the Romish yoke to the deliuerāce of that people frō the bōdage of Aegypt we graūt you we make that comparison sometimes we are sure that therein there is offred no wrong at al vnto you For both in vniuersality continuannce of time and extremity both to soule bodie the slauery vnder your proud antichristian Popes hath exceeded theirs vnder Pharao in Aegypt and consequently the deliuerance of the people from that of yours must needes beeing as it is both more spiritual and general then that of theirs was much exceed that of theirs But that therefore it is as necessary that wee should anew work miracles to confirme our vocation to doe this as it was for Moses to confirme his calling to doe the other thereby therin you are both deceiued seeke also to deceiue others For Moses by God was shewed that he should so confirme his and so are not we that we shal or ought so to confirme ours and his calling thereunto was not onely extraordinary whereas ours in great part at least as I haue shewed hath bene to this ordinary but also the thing it selfe and the means to bring it to passe both in the eies of Pharao al others were strange miraculous wheras in this our case in delyuering mē frō your antichristiā seruitude bringing thē to the liberty freedome purchased for thē by the bloud of Christ by the preaching of the worde of God sincerely ministring his sacraments accordingly both are wōted ordinary For what is more ordinary with God then to bring mē frō error to trueth that by these means in his church The thing that Moses was sent to doe was a new strange thing for a man of his quality wtout force of war weapons to deliuer so great gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrāt it is wōderful therfore it was likewise necessary that the means that he should effect that by especially should be miracles Finally there was no certainer way for Moses hauing to
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
The XXIIII Chapter THe Catholicke Church continuallie hath faithfullie holden doeth holde that our Sauiour Iesus Christ is true God and man hauing taken natural flesh in the wombe of the virgin Marie wholie like vnto ours as touching the corporal essence that is to saie excepted onelie sinne the vvhich bodie he did forme of the verie flesh and substaunce of his mother by the operation of the holy Ghost vvho hath vvrought so notable and excellent a vvorke that tvvo contrary or diuers natures are miraculouslie ioined vnited in one person without confusiō or conuersion of the one substance into the other but by coniunction vnion of them both called by the diuines Hipostatique This doctrine hath euer beene receiued and holden by the Church in equal degree of trueth and reuerence with the rest of the points of religion which now you seeke to abolish And notwithstanding this diuers Ministers and Preachers deriued from the sacred consistories of Valentinus Photinus Manes Theodorus Nestorius Apollinaris Eutichus Macharius Eutiocheus besides a great number of other famous heretickes that I cannot here name haue sought to teach the contrary saying that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles to reforme the Church b Thus at your pleasur◠you father vpon these heretiques to make them resemble vs that the contrary whereof the ancient fathers attribute vnto thē namely that they shunned trial by the scriptures that they accused them of vnsufficiency darkenes and so fled to vnwriten traditions and fond reuelations euen as you doe for al the world not by the Traditions of men which you cal Papistical but by the pure word of God For euen like you my masters did Valentinus his fellowes begin the reformed Church taking vpon them the correction of al the Magistrates and Fathers in times past saying that they did abuse the people because that they taught that Iesus Christ had taken flesh and bloud of the Virgin Marie saying that this vvas a great errour the vvhich ought to be reformed and that the people should beleeue that he brought his bodie from heauen and that he caused it to passe through the wombe of the Virgin Marie as the water doeth through the chanell This Gospel was verie straunge yet the saied Valentinus did not want Scripture as you haue to confirme it interpreting it euen as you doe interpret here in France He did alleage for his text the third of Iohn where Christ doeth saie No person is ascended to heauen but hee that did descende from heauen And therefore did he maintaine that seeing Christ is in heauen and descended from heauen that he tooke no flesh of the virgin Marie Nestorius another notable hereticke did lincke his Gospell to Apollinaris opinion in this case seperating the manhood from God and saying that the sonne of man ought not to be called God for seeing saied Apollinaris that this man is descended from heauen it doeth follow that hee tooke no flesh of the virgin besides this Christ saiethe * Ioh. 6. I am descended from heauen not to doe my will but the will of my father Here hee doeth not speake as one that is God for if it were so he would haue no other wel but the will of his father and so he doeth speake like a man And he saieth that he is descended from heauen for the which cause this same Valentinus did take the conclusion of this Gospel to his aduantage for the third authoritie that is writen in the first to the Corinthians where Saint Paul saieth the first man is of earth earthlie the second is of heauen heauenly The which passage or place is as fit to serue Valentinus opinion as all the places that you and all those that hold your opinion can alleage The XXV Chapter ANother Minister likewise called Apollinaris followed after these sent by the saied master yet according to his saying he did preach the pure word of God affirming that the Church ought to bee reformed which had beleeued that the two natures were cōtained in Iesus Christ that the true religion was to beleeue as it is writen in the 1 of Iohn that the word was indeed become flesh or cōuerted into flesh And to confirme this he did alleage the saied place where S. Iohn doeth say And the word was made flesh whē the catholickes did reply against him saying that the verbe or word tooke flesh not as touching the conuersion of one substāce into another he did fortifie his Gospel with another text where S. Iohn doeth write of the mariage at Canaa where the water was chāged into wine that is to saie as touching the very substance of the water which vvas turned into wine Euen so saieth he that it became at the verie Incarnation of Christ alleaging that that we haue saied And the word was made flesh Arrius which was the most famous hereticke that euer hath bene did pretēd to verifie another gospell his was that our Sauiour Christ had not taken at his incarnation a perfect soule another men haue but that he had onely a body and that his diuinity did supplie the absence of his soule Of this opinion was Apollinaris Theodorus Mossnestenus and Nestorius came after and they did blame the Catholick Church because it did teach the saied vnion called as I haue saied Hipostatique that is to saie of the two natures in one person And they did alleage for their argument a verie subtil reason the which was that God did inhabite within the body of our sauiour as he did within a Temple that is to say by grace and not by being vnited togither And therefore euen as it were a great folly to saie that God is a Temple that so it is to saie that God is a man This Gospell did seeme verie new yet did not they want Scripture to maintaine it a That is not because we haue not plainer places rightly alleaged for proofe of our religion but that in Gods iust iudgement such as you haue eies and ee not and that more plainer then euer I could see anie place to maintaine your heresies Christ did saie vnto the Iewes * Joh. 2. Vndoe this Temple and in three daies I will build it againe He meant it by the Temple of his bodie saieth S. Iohn Then the bodie of Iesus Christ is the Temple of God God is not his temple See whether this be not a notable argument to deceiue the simple man that is not vsed to read how the doctours expound these hard places And moreouer they did alleage S. Paul in the first to the Colloss where hee doeth saie that the plenitude or fulnes of diuinitie doeth dwell in Iesus Christ corporallie they do alleage this place greatly to their purpose to proue that God is b In him as in left out I thin e. a Temple that is to saie by grace not being vnited For the third place they take the 8. of Iohn where
and thinking it needefull our selues before we take vpon vs to interprete them to aske wisedome of God and that hartelie and faithfully that we may wisely truely and sincerely open them vnto the people we know and saie with Basil 2. libro contra Eunomium that the word of God is not in the sound and words of the scripture but in the sense and with Hierom vpon the first Chapter of the epistle to the Galathians wee are readie alwaies to acknowledge that the gospell lies not in the words of the scripture but in the sense not in the outward shew but in theinward marow not in the leaues of speech but in the root of reason Now this sound sence of the scripture we take onely to be that which the authour thereof thereby intended for the better finding out whereof after inuocation and praier vnto God for the direction of his spirit to leade vs aright thereunto wee thinke it very necessarie that no good meanes that we can haue vse of be omitted And therefore to this ende we labour for the knowledge of tongues and artes we consider of the phrase of all the circumstances haue before our eies the manifest agreed on summe of Christian faith and good maners confer place with place diligently reade the writings both of ancient writers and newe and that we resolue to be the true since which we finde stands best with the lawfull and good vse of all these In alleadging of them this course we take to make it appeare that by the sound rules of interpreting the scriptures they are rightly cited by vs wee stand not therefore vpon the bare and onely cyting of them howsoeuer that be as you would insinuate but vpon the right and sound alleadging thereof which you can neuer proue is common to vs with other heretiques For howsoeuer they and you ioyne with vs in often alleadging the Scriptures for your defence yet neither they nor you ioyne with vs in right alleadging of them in that you and they alleadge them for the maintenance of your errours and heresies contrary to the true sence thereof and the sound rules of interpreting of them and we according to the true sence of the Catholicke church standing well with those rules to confirme the Catholicke faith And yet as I saied to this ende serueth what soeuer you haue writen in this Chapter and in three or foure moe following namely to proue that the deuill heretiques and others as you write haue by wresting wrong interpreting the scriptures alwaies laboured to countenāce their heresies This we graunt to be most true you see yet thereby you haue gained nothing against vs. For we stand still vpon this may doe for all this that if we haue the Scriptures indeede in true sence on our side thereby we and our doings are so sufficiently iustified as that we neede no further iustification These fiue Chapters as they tend to the proofe of one and selfe-same matter so haue I thought good ioyntly to frame an answere to them togither Be it graunted therefore vnto you that all these heretiques as you haue writen and reported of them alleadged the Scripture and consequently as hereupon you inferre cap. 26. that one may see how the ill disposed may alleage scripture in a corrupt sence to maintaine such heresie as these To what ende haue you done all this It appeareth chap. 22. you entered first into this discourse to proue that though we haue the scripture on our side which we alleadge yet we are not therby sufficiently defended and now hereupon onely you would inferre conclude that a man may see how the ill disposed may alleadge Scripture in a corrupt sence to confirme such heresies as these which we graunt to be most euident and yet it remaineth vndisproued that if we haue the Scripture which we alleadge on our side we are thereby sufficiētly defended For none of these nor any that alleadged Scripture as they did though they alleadge the words of the scripture haue the scripture indeede on their sides because if a man haue not the true sence thereof on his side he hath not the scripture indeede and trueth on his side But perhaps you will say that you intended onely in this discourse this cōclusion that you haue gathered thereupon set downe in the beginning of your 26. Chapter then say I you made an obiection against your selues in our name cap. 22. which you thought to heauy harde for you therefore you thought good thus to slip frō it by and by againe For you were neuer so simple as to thinke that we were of that opinion that we accounted our selues to haue those scriptures which wee alleadged on our side to iustifie vs our doctrine euē for the bare alleadging of the words how far soeuer we were from the true meaning But you beginne in your 26. to tell vs what further meaning you haue had therein as namely hereby to warne the simple people that they should not giue eare vnto false pastours that haue nothing in their mouthes but the scripture the pure word of God And hereupon you take occasion most earnestly to perswade those that are not much vsed to reade the Scriptures nor to heare how the church the doctours doe expoūd the hard places to beware how they reade thē for fear of falling into errour Indeede as long as you would haue them hereby onely to take heede of rash crediting false pastours which would countenance their damnable doctrine with such allegations I like well and allow of your warning hereupon giuen against such but then I can assure you this withall that rather your Popes Bishops pastours will be found these false pastours then they whom you meane I like also very well that not only such as you speake of but further that men of all sorts how much soeuer exercised in the reading of the scriptures or acquainted with the exposition of the Church or doctours should be at all times wary and carefull in reading of the Scriptures in what sence they take them For I graunt as you inferre that if so many men of great learning haue so dangerouslie mistaken them it is possible enough that men that haue little skill or none at all may as dangerously misunderstande them But yet vpon these wordes either to discourage the pastour from countenancing and defending his true doctrine by the Scriptures pure word of God or to discourage the simple people from reading and studying the Scriptures which I feare herein was your secrete purpose though for shame you durst not plainely set it downe I tell you is deuilish and Antichristian For though it be true that the deuill for wicked purpose as you note in you twenty two Chapter alleadged scripture to Christ Mat. 4. out of Psal 91. and all these heretiques alleadged scripture for the countenancing of their damnable heresies yet that droue not Christ nor true Christians from alleadging the scriptures to
which is but a mā often times an ignorant wicked man to vnderstand the scriptures and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God nor any true desire after knowledge but rather after ignorāce because that is the best foūdation of your Religiō And therefore as the fashiō is you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne happily iudge them to be as hard to all others as to your selues and thereupon by the hardnes thereof discourage them from reading them as much as you cā I am sure whatsoeuer you or any of your fellowes prate hereof that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers as well as to the great learned men of this world For therein and thereby I know that God is no accepter of persons and therefore so far of is it that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto thē or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes should driue them from the reading and studying of thē that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof For we see in our earthly fathers will the harder the tearines and phrases be wherein he hath giuen vs any thing or willeth vs to doe any thing nature reason hath taught vs not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines cost but a great deale more to seeke to vnderstand the same how much more ought it to be so in this case And I am perswaded that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade study them with hope to vnderstand them that the other might admonish him to be no negligent but a careful wise peruser of them so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them Which it should seeme both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours Gregory in his epist to Leander had obserued in noting that God had so ordred the scriptures as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate for the weakling milke and that there both the Elephāt might swimme and the lambe safely wade These things notwithstāding whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose I perceiue that you in this your lōg discourse of the hereticks abusing and wresting the scriptures cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose so the thereby you might gaine thus much as by such experiments to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue study of the scriptures For I know they greatly comber you stād in your way and therefore by your wils you cared not if the people neuer hearde of them wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe great Champions against them as it is well knowen too too often For first for their authority though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church For otherwise we could not beleeue them but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them adding further that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion but rather to be subiect thereunto And Ecchius another great doctour of yours of the same time in his Enchiridion writing of the authority of the church saieth that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority but through the authority of the Church and therefore he boldly affirmeth that to say that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church is hereticall and the contrary is Catholicke And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge that one of your crue meaning thereby one Herman had not beene ashamed to say that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables but for the testimony of the church Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours writing against the saied Brentius in his third booke being of the authority of the scripture defends it as well inough spoken for saieth he vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall it could haue had small authority with vs. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book seuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God but by the testimony of the Church insomuch that she must determine saieth he what bookes be Canonicall and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into or out of the Canon Of the same iudgemēt is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther And this position so liked Ecchius that in the place before cited he writes of the margent Achilles against this position to insinuate that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours And yet when all comes to all your meaning all this while is by the Church to vnderstand onely the Pope forasmuch as none but hee hath the tongue of the Church in weelding For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures which is also Canus fift proposition in effect in the Chapter before named This being your meaning Leo the tenth being one of your Popes what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture if it be true that is writen of him that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall cōtemptuously saied speaking of the Gospell that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them And as for the vncertainty of the sēce insufficiēcy of thē who knoweth not what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow in amplifying the hardnes of them in either preferring therefore or equalling the vnwritē word with you call the liuely practise of the church before thē both for plainnes sufficiency Whē you are in this vaine both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified and Piggius also by your Andradius Orthodox Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the scriptures to a nose of waxe he to a leaden lesbian rule and to their further
surest way of declaring the scriptures to expoūd one scripture by another in his 3. booke of Christian doctrine cap. 26. and in those bookes writen of Christian doctrine many moe very profitable Which way Chrys thought so sure a way that he saieth flatly The holy scriptures expound thēselues and suffer not the Reader to erre in his 12. Homil vpon Gen And yet for all this to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought neither for the triall of your interpretations nor yet for determining of this question whither you haue the spirit of trueth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselues for triall of their doings to this but your Popes thinke scorne to looke so lowe yea rather they will haue all questions wherein they are principall parties themselues tryed by themselues and you and they crie out that this is not the readiest way to ende such questions But who is so madde as to thinke that you can finde out a better way then Christ and his Apostles vsed You will send vs say some of you for the triall of these matters vnto the doctours and councels and yet when it commeth to the point vnles they and their sayings please you yee reiect them also And you cannot denie but that oftentimes also it is farre more disputable and doubtfull what was their meaning then what is the meaning of the Scripture and you know also that it is an vsuall thing with them to sende vs backe againe to the Scriptures for triall of their writings as it appeareth in Augustines 19. Epist to Hirom and in his 111. Epist to Fortunatian And therefore indeede say you what you will this is the safest surest and readiest way of triall of this and all other matters in question betwixt vs to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures I would to God therfore that once you would giue ouer al other bie and indirect trials and come onely to this for then it would quickely appeare euen to the simple whither you or wee were rather to be followed For all this we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter in warning men to take heede that they doe not rashly beleeue follow euery one that will pretend that they haue the scriptures on their side But whereas you write that the heresies which you will after speake of that were condēned by the Catholique church were as well more largely confirmed by scriptures thē we can thereby confirme our Religiō therein first you most vntruely report that of vs as we doubt not but to make it euident vnto the world if you would once come to any indifferent trial with vs secondly I must admonish the reader that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church but that that catholique Church was not yours nor as yours now is For the differences be infinite betwixt yours the Church thē by reason whereof there is as great difference betwixt the Church then and yours now in effect as there is betwixt ours now and yours In your recitall of the heretiques abusing the scriptures diuers things slipt from you also worthy the noting namely these that you could not content your selfe with shewing vs how they did abuse the Scriptures in wrong alleaging them but that as though your fingers itched to shew that you had as good skill therein as they you still intermingle with theirs your owne cunning in shewing how other places might be abused in like maner neither confuting in the ende their collections nor your owne how dangerous soeuer Another tricke you haue in noting the trueths impugned by them and the maner how they went to worke though neuer so vntruly yet cōfidently to set downe that the things which we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them that they set themselues then against and that they cried out against traditions of men and cried onely for the writen word as we doe wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you were hatched then and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion to flie from the Scriptures and to accuse them as you doe and to vrge traditions that they also vsed to vrge other such like grounds for their heresies as you doe as I haue shewed cap. 3. The last is that for the most part you charge them with what you list not shewing vs where you read or finde ground for these things wherewith you charge them belike least in turning to the places examining you proofes we should to your discredit haue occasion thereby to discry in you either some malice errour ignorance or some negligence at the least For example how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places then the Catholicks Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vs Hus and his schollers condemning them But to passe on from these things to your conclusion vpon these premisses and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter I graunt you by that which you haue writen in the former chapters it may be seene that one ill disposed maie soone alleage scripture in a corrupt sence but what is this to proue that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is that the holie scriptures which we alleage do not iustifie our doings If you would haue proued this indeed you should haue proued that we alleage the scriptures in a wrong sence as these did that you haue talkt on but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you therfore you thought good not once to meddle with it But yet as though either you had proued it or else that it could not but wtout proofe be graūted you you boldly affirme as these hereticks that you haue talkt of haue perished their heresies so shall we our followers if we repent not Wherunto I answere first that so repentance maie be takē that it is most true that not onely we our followers but you yours also al men else must repent or else we al you and al other shal perish but taking it as you doe for repēting of our religiō of alleaging of the scriptures which we doe for the maintenāce of it against you you haue saied nothing at al as yet to make vs once to thinke that we haue any need at al so or therof to repēt Secōdly I saie that in thus saying you haue shewed your malice boldnes more then any thing else for you haue therin vttered nothing but a blind prophets dreāe and fansie which no man of any wisedome or discretion wil make any reckoning of It is wel yet that the euidēce of the trueth hath enforced you here to confesse that it maie be seene in al the ancient ecclesiastical writers that the doctours fully
answered by texts of scripture these old heresies by you before mētioned For euen therby you maie see that though heretickes neuer so much misaleage scripture that yet the true ministers of the Lord may must alleage them euen to answere to cōfute their heresies by And therfore it stādeth stil firme that if we by alleaging of thē aright cā proue you heretickes your opiniōs which we striue against heresies which no further then we can doe we neuer craue anie credit to be giuē vs whatsoeuer you would seeme to haue saied to beat vs frō alleaging of thē that it appears that therby both we our doings and religion are sufficiētly iustified both before God and mā These misalegers of scripture which in al these Chapters you haue spoken of you saie you will not staie to confute for two causes because they raigne not now and their heresies togither with thē the authours therof are perished because the anciēt doctors haue cōfuted them as you saie but indeed the reason was that you were loth to occupie either your selfe or reader in so profitable a matter It semeth you tooke more delight in shewing how the scripture might be misalleaged to fortifie heresie then how rightlie alleaged to cōfute the same and therfore you could find leasure to stay 4. or 5 Chap. in that but not at al vpon this Besides if it be true that you haue reported if you had wel remēbred your selfe you would not so generally haue saied that they were al perished For read your Chap. ouer again and you shal finde that therin you haue spoken of some that are not so quite dead and perished but that euen in these daies they need to be cōfuted But you say that with you haue here noted either of them or of their heresies and their alleaging of scripture for the sāe you haue done it onely to giue warning to simple people that they should not too rashly giue ear to false pastors which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holy scripture and the pure word of God so couering the cups of their poison with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken frō the image of the eternal king to paint those subtil foxes that will lead them al to dānatiō If you had indeed done it onely to this end you had not bene to be misliked but in deed and trueth you haue done it to breed in men a carelesnes and negligence in searching the scriptures and a cōtempt of alleaging the same to determine the cōtrouersies betwixt vs and you Otherwise thinke as you speake and we are ready to ioine with you both in this also in that which you adde in wishing the simple and vnlearned in reading the harde places to take heed they fal not into error by taking onelie the letter c. For if great learned men thereby haue bene endangered how much more may such But surely this is rather a caue at meet and needful for you thē for vs if we go no further but to your peeuish taking of the letter of hoc est corpus meū contrary to al sound rules of right interpreting as I haue shewed before Now wheras hereupon you take occasion according to your maner to ieere at our ministry as though in Frāce Englād especially it were generally vnlearned and consisted of the basest and most contemptible of the people you are worthy of smal answere your speech there about is so apparētly false slāderous For God be thāked in both kingdoms you your selues are enforced to feele to your whole kingdoms griefe and deadly wound in the end I doubt not that there are great store of learned ministers and bishops far other maner of men then you haue named And therfore your own conscience could not but tel you vnles it were seared with a hoate iron that they doe in neither kingdōe cōmit the guiding of the sterne wtout cōsideratiō to al kinde of people In both places both their doctrine publicke order of their churches aimeth at a learned godly ministry wherof if in some particulers they faile which in so great a multitude and compasse altogither cannot bee auoided the faulte is to bee laied in the particuler men by whose negligence or corruption it so commeth to passe and not in either of the churches which would gladly that no such fault should at all be committed Howbeit I dare say howsoeuer you ruffle in your tearms of pedlers Coblers Tanners Bankerouts and raunagates and say that such be our interpreters of the scriptures and that we hold euery such one once admitted by a bishop to be a minister to haue the spirit and to be great doctours to whom no place of scripture is too hard because they can rayle of the Pope say al the ancient doctours were men and the generall councels did erre that yet you can neither proue our ministers to be such nor that for these balde reasons wee thinke any so qualified as you write It pleased you but in this to shew your spitefull and malicious spirit but alas who will thinke doe you what you can that you indeed mislike a base and vnlearned ministry who not onely haue held and yet haue as great cause so to doe stil as euer that ignorance is the mother of deuotiō but also vpon that ground haue all your Church seruice in a tongue that the people shall not vnderstand and content your selues for the most part with such priests as can scarsely rightly read the same Truely if there had bene but a crumme of right modesty shamefastnes in you knowing as you doe the notorious basenes grossenes and ignorance of your ordinary masse-priestes you would neuer haue taken this pleasure that it seemeth you did in thus railing on defacing and slandering of ours Indeed by that saying of Christ Matth. 11. by you quoted Ioh. 8. when we see what grace and giftes of knowledge God oftentimes amongst vs bestoweth vpon such in the meane time beholding in what great blindnes and errour a number of great Rabbins and doctours amongst you walke on still we take occasion as Christ hath taught vs to giue thankes to our heauenly father that hath reuealed these thinges vnto babes which yet your great wise men and men of vnderstanding see not But you would not haue vs by this place to defend that such meane men may come to be cunning and skilfull in the Scriptures Your reasons are two for that other heretiques haue so alleadged it and for that this is to be vnderstood of the humble in spirit whereas these men of ours trust to their owne wittes and are puft vp with arrogant ignorance c. You thought good yet neither to tell vs what heretikes when nor where howsoeuer you knowe I trust that men must not shame wel to vse that Scripture that heretiques haue abused Concerning your other reason I graūt you the place is to be vnderstood onely of the humble and meeke in
not thought that he himselfe not onely might but had erred would he euer haue writeÌ„ as he did a booke of RetractioÌ„s or RecaÌ„tatioÌ„s And indeed in his 2 book 4. Chap. ad BonifaciuÌ„ against that 2. Epist of the PelagiaÌ„s it appeareth that he was of opinioÌ„ that of necessity childreÌ„ were to receiue the CoÌ„munion or els they could not be saued because it is writeÌ„ Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ drinke his bloud yee haue no life in you and Pope Innocent and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then And yet I thinke now your selues holde this to bee an errour aswell as wee And who will read his fourth booke de animâ eius origine ad Vincentium and his prologue to his retractions he should there plainlie finde him confesse that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vnto in any case but rather pardon and follow him non erraÌ„teÌ„ sed in melius proficientem not erring but better profiting Yea in the later place he saieth that he would not arrogate that perfection to himselfe then being old much lesse when hee was young not to erre And I thinke that you are not ignorant that Irenaeus and Papias were plaine Millenaries and that Cyprian a nuÌ„ber of bishops in his time in Affricke held in councel decreed that rebaptizatioÌ„ of those that had bene baptized by hereticks which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now Why therefore especially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the scriptures may we not say that which is true that they both might haue erred And thus you haue your answere first generally to your principall scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters set downe togither because the drift of them was but al one and now also a further answere to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered But yet you haue not quite done with this matter let vs therefore further follow you to see if you haue said any more to the purpose in that which is behinde then in that which we haue heard already The XXVII Chapter I Pray Syrs since you are so absolute answere me to this obiection a A vaine questioÌ„ for whoeuer of vs either saied or wrote so is it good to beleeue almaner of people that doe alleage the Scriptures or not If ye say yea why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus Apollinaris Hebion Cherintus and Nestorius with diuers others that haue sought to maintaine their errours with the new olde Testament If you saie no but that we ought rather to follow the counsell of S. Iohn in his first Epistle cap. 4. The which is not to beleeue euery spirit but that we ought to proue whether it be of God or no b Our proofe is that our senâ—e wherein we alleage them stands with the rest of the scriptures is according to the analogy of faith and good maners receiued to be the sence of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church What proofe wil you shew vs of yours Shewe the priuiledge that you haue by the vvhich God dieth enioine vs to beleeue your Gospel rather the the Gospell of the Pelagians Nouatians Nestorians and other such false Apostles considering that they haue alleaged the Scriptures aswel as you If you saie that they were heretickes abusers of the people and rauishing wolues cloathed in lambes skins and false interpreters of the Scriptures all this is certaine a The more haue they to answere for that report so for they can neuer proue it to be so But vvhat though the like report goeth of you Ye say that ye are sent from Cod to reforme the Church They saie as much b Which of hem I pray you seeing they liued before the B. of Rome beâ—ame Antichrist They preached that the Pope vvas Antichrist c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one shevving themselues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling against the Catholicke Roman Church you doe the like d You say so but you â—ay more then you can proue At euerie vvord they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons to confirme their doctrine as you doe for yours That that they preached was called by them the Gospel the pure vvorde of the Lord these are the verie tearmes that you vse among your holie prophetes they haue beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels e Not yet by any lawful and f ee geneâ—al councel was euer our religioÌ„ or any point of it condemned you are so likewise They did appeale vnto the pure vvord of God you doe the like Yet are they proued to be false f This iâ— flat dogs eloquence cogging knaues and so shal you Then seeing there is so great an vniformitie betvveene you vpon vvhat grounde g Vpon this that we are able to iustifie our alleaging of them to to be sound and catholicke which they are not shall vvee confirme that reason that shoulde condemne them as heretiques allow you for Catholicks h This question is rather meete to be proposed to you who haue learned of the Donatists to tye the Church to your popes sleue and to shut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Augustine in his Epistle 161. did put vnto a Donatist called Honoratus this probleme We desire thee not to thinke it much to answere vs to this what cause doest thou know or what thing hath there beene done that hath made Chirst loose his inheritance spred ouer all the world to coÌ„e to be contained onely in Affricke there onelie to remaine We put the like question to i Though your popish Church hath bene none of his â—nheritaÌ„ce a good while yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will haue and this we hold and teach and therefore your question is vâ—iâ—e friuolous and flaâ—â—eâ—ous Caluin Beza Viret the rest that it may please theÌ„ to tel vs if that by chauÌ„ce they haue bene aduertised through what occasion our Sauiour Christ hath lost his inheritaunce that is to say the Church spread ouer all the world to remaine now in the later daies with a coÌ„panie of rude Swizers or in two or three corners besides not among the rest for there is a great number of good Catholickes what badge caÌ„ you shew or what signe to make vs know that you are the successours of the Apostles of Christ If that the Scriptures that you alleage ought to be a sufficient proofe we are content to accept it k There as no need that we should doe so because we can proue that we alleadge them soundly they falsely corruptly if you will be content to grant
gibing you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that â—heir place is knowen though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists at the last they doe not know which side indeede is the truest being both false therefore I thinke it were good that a sequestration were made that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement as concerning which party hath most right And in the meane while I beseech god to open so the eies of the people that they may see both your errours and their owne and that through the abundance of their sinnes he permit theÌ„ not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels The XXVIII Chapter ONce againe you obiect vnto vs the contentioÌ„ betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists which you say is cause sufficient not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs though otherwise you were willing to forsake your ReligioÌ„ which wrongfully you call Catholique but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides that they are led one while on the one side anone againe on the other so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes though otherwise as you say we giue absolute sentence that the Catholique church hath erred eueÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles times to this present in praying to God for the soules in purgatory you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules vntill it were determined with of these belong to God and which to the deuill And then you conclude this Chapter with a solemne praier to God to open the peoples eies to see both our errours their own sinnes least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie telling vs of great battels railing processes and horrible excommunications that haue passed about this matter of the sacrameÌ„t on both sides and yet there in another booke which you haue made you say of the sacrament you signifie vnto vs that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter Against this such like out-cries of these men about this matter gentle Reader thou art to arme and streÌ„gthen thy selfe with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church and true members thereof to haue as great hoat contentions as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficieÌ„t I could now further shew you that not only there is as great a coÌ„trouersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues the nature of their Religion considered as any they can charge vs with namely this whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority but also I might easily againe say and say truely as they themselues know well enough that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus Lucifer and Eusebius the Meletians and Eustathians all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians as that with great trouble to the Church they shunned one anothers communion and that for verie many yeares togither as you may reade in Epiphanius libro 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. c. in Socrates libro 2. cap. 33. 34. and in Zozomen libro 2. cap. 17. 18. And wee reade histor tripart libro 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both that departing one from the other the one spitefully saied to the other thou shalt neuer die Bishop and the other saied to him as vncharitably neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue both which their imprecations or predictions as the storie shewes came euen so to passe For Chrysostome died banished and the other before he got home to Cyprus If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro 5. cap. 23. 25. and Euseb lib. 7. cap. 3. 4. And who is so ignorant that the Church stories and ancient writers ministers vnto vs but too too great store in all ages of controuersies and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians of great name and fame in their times And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs as though it were sufficient cause of all or of any of these thinges which you inferre thereupon against vs. Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere thereupon to haue gathered either all or any of these thinges Nay it is euident that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth growen Neuters or Atheists that they had beene without excuse before God For seeing to know the trueth and to be settled in it is a thing so necessary as it is the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out the more thereby they that are the Lordes and haue anie grace are prouoked to labour and search to finde it and to settle themselues the stronglier in it And therefore seeing such offences haue beene and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church and triall of Gods children you and such as you that by such discourses as this leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed or now to bee caried this way now that way as long as the contention lasteth seeme to be disposed to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes If you minded to haue them settled in Religion and preserued from neutralitie the mother of Atheisme it were your partes to ioyne with vs especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion that be now a daies in the world to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture and thereby to trie all spirits and their opinions whither they be of God or no yea euen so much the more for these varieties sake that so they might finde the trueth and be settled in it For they may not fainte or giue ouer thus doing for this for necessary it is that
these should come these haue beene and will be for the triall who they be indeede that thirst after the trueth and will cleaue vnto it But in taking this contrary way whatsoeuer you say not wee but you leade men and that with a strong hand to Atheisme And so much the more folly you shew in making these collections of yours of these controuersies amongst vs seeing amongst your selues i◠were an easie matter to put you in remembrance of a number as hoat and feircely followed contentions as this yet euer was amōgst vs. Some thing to make this appeare I haue noted Chapter the 4. but seeing you haue neuer done with this obiection the better to make your vanity therin appeare let the reader further vnderstand that your Popes themselues amongst themselues one against another haue further proceeded in malitious contention then euer the Lutherans or Protestāts did For as Platina writeth when Pope long after him for Boniface the 6. his immediate successour was Pope but 25. daies caried such hatred towards him and his proceedings that he caused his decrees to be abrogated and as other Historiographers write of him he caused him to be taken out of his graue and solemnly to be in a councel disgraded which when he had done therewith not content he cut of his two fingers that he vsed to consecrate withall and cast them into the riuer Tibris But Romanus the first succeeding him ratified againe Formosus doings and abrogated and disanulled all Stephens proceedings against him Whose course Theodorus the 2 and especially Iohn the 10 followed in iustifying and condemning Stephens doinges against him in another councel at Rauenna consisting of seuenty foure bishops Howbeit Sergius the 3. the 4 Pope after taketh Stephens part against Formosus and that so hoatly as that once againe though he were the ninth Pope from Formosus he causeth his body to be taken vp out of his graue disgradeth him againe beheadeth him cutteth of the 3 fingers that were left him of his right hand and threw his body and the peeces thereof despitefully into Tyber About the yeare 1354 as Godfridus de Fontanis writeth there grew and burst out marueilous hoate contentions betwixt the Friers of Dominicke and Francis in Fraunce about their priuiledges and the prelates of France and the Schollers of Paris insomuch that there were publicke and bitter Sermons made by one against another the one side excommunicated another And Matth. Paris reporteth that there was by the prelates of France and the doctours of Paris nine erronious conclusions which by his report were of matters of great weight in religion laied to the charge of the Gray-friers for the which they excommunicated them and for which there was hoat stirre on both sides About the yeare 1470. there was a notorious contention also betwixt the Dominicke friers and the Minorites the one side following Scotus and the other Aquinas whither Mary was conceiued in originall sinne or no the Minorites with Scotus holding the negatiue and the other with Aquinas the affirmatiue which in the yeare 1509 grew so great that it troubled and deuided al these Westerne partes of the world notwithstanding that Pope Sixtus the 4 had giuen out his bull in the yeare 1576. on the Minorites side Insomuch that some of the Dominicke friers were burned at Berne for their deuises to maintaine their faction as witnesseth both Pencer and Munster And who knoweth not of the 24. great schismes at least which haue bene in the Romish Church during which times some of them lasting verie long their Church was torne into so many factions as there were Popes and antipopes Amongst which factions and their heads there grewe sometimes warres indeed and when they were quietest railing processes and excommunications one of them against the other in most bitter maner as the stories of those times doe testifie were vsual amongst them But what should I rūne any further into this matter Seeing it is a thing most certaine and whereof no man can be ignorant that hath taken any paine in reading Stories that the Church of Rome for all her brag of vnitie these late yeares hath beene so ful of hoate and fierie contentions as that neuer a country neuer an order neuer a Cloister or Church amongst them but it hath had most tumultuous contentions at one time or other both within themselues and with others And therefore if this contention amongst vs be cause sufficient of such conclusions and dangerous consequents as you set downe in this chapter what my all these bee which we know haue bene amongst you and of like whereunto we know your Church is yet ful And that more is certain it is that howsoeuer cōfidently you write that there haue bene excommunications betwixt the Caluinists and the Lutherans one against another about this matter though with griefe we must confesse that it may be that both partes haue exceeded their bounds but to far you make here a greater shew of it thē there is iust cause For whatsoeuer certaine of the Lutherans as you tearme them haue done in excommunicating the other yet I thinke you can neuer proue that Caluin or any of his iudgement in this point haue proceeded to far against any of them But if they had why should this seeme so straunge a thing vnto you For you know I am sure that Victor once bishop of Rome did excommunicate certaine bishops in his time of the east Church because they would not ioyne with him and the west Church in the time of obseruing Easter And that Stephanus another bishop of Rome went as far against Cyprian for his opinion of rebaptizing you cannot be ignorant Againe you know that there are but few of the Lutherans that pursue this controuersie so hoately the greater part being contented to deale in it more brotherly and quietly and that the hoatest of them also haue beene so thorowly answered to all their obiections as that there beginneth to be greater hope of vnity herein ere it be long then you well like of or then shal come to passe indeed if you can let it But alas though it hath bene far more especially of the one side then any waie can be iustified yet what hath bene their bitternes and heat of either side at any time to be compared with the bannings and cursings fightings and brawlings murderings manglings and all barbarous extremities that the malitious and spiteful heart of man can deuise that haue beene amongst your most holy fathers the Popes of Rome themselues and their fauourers followers at sundry times and for many yeares togither Howsoeuer as long as both parts agree in the fundamental pointes of Christiā religion and in the other most necessary and fruitful documents concerning this sacrament as clearely appeareth by a booke lately set forth of the Harmony of our confessions and the controuersie lieth onely about the maner of the reall presence and eating with the mouth which mouth-eating as all sides confesse may bee and
the philosophers of outward good works wherof you brag lustily in the later ende of this Chapter yet you shall neuer be able to proue your selues good trees because your Religion by the sound and perfect touchstone of the scriptures wil be proued false and Idolatrous This your selfe giue to be the very reason why the philosophers were bad trees notwithstanding that in respect of outward shew of holines we may truely confesse with you that euen their liues at the day of iudgement shall will confound a number of Christians in name which led Painims liues And therefore vntill it be set out of question that your Religion is not false nor Idolatrous which is impossible as long as the Scriptures keepe their place if you bragge of ten times moe outward workes then either you doe or can yet your owne mouth will condemne you as yet to haue saied nothing to proue your selues good trees And on the contrary euen by this your owne saying if we can proue our religion to be the sound Christian faith taught indeede by Christ and his Apostles and therefore that neuer since hell gates could preuaile against it which we doubt not of whensoeuer you will enter into this controuersie with vs then for all your saying here to the contrary Christes sentence shall giue vs very good aduantage Thus hauing shewed your cunning in restraining and collecting of this prouerbe of Christ as I haue now as one that after some wresting found it stronger for you then you would haue thought you graunt it to be most true the naturallie a good tree bringeth forth good fruit not bad at all and a crab-tree nothing but crabs And this you labour to proue first by certaine testimonies of S. Iohn affirming that he that is borne of God sinneth not then by other places as Iohn 8. Sap. 1.1 Cor. 10. you confirme that doctrine of S. Iohn lastly by a similitude shewing that as the rottennes wormeatennes or any such fault in the fruite of a good tree letteth not but that still naturally that tree may be saied to beare good fruit because these things fall out by some accident vnnaturall to the tree euen so the good tree alwaies as it is a good tree bringeth forth naturally good fruit Here in effect you let go and giue ouer the former restraining of Christs words and recant that you saied before the aâ—il tree as the philosophers may bring forth good fruit a good tree as a Catholique in Religion by whom you meane a Papist may bring forth ill fruits and will you nill you you are enforced to confesse that Christes wordes are generally true simply therefore alwaies verified of both good trees and bad trees as they are naturally considered But yet you adde the tree is knowen by his fruit and faith by workes so as then the fruit bee ripe in due season not otherwise Wherein I take your meaning to be that not euery shew of fruites nor vnripe works but works indeede good both in matter and maner of doing are the fruits whereby a good tree iustifying faith is discerned You yet proceede and say that as a rotten and wormeaten apple hanging vpon a good tree seeing that came not thorow the nature of the tree but by meanes of wormes birdes or some other such accident ministreth not a sufficient argument to proue that tree to be an ill tree so the ill workes of Christians ought not to staine their holy Catholique religioÌ„ For the corruption of their fruits commeth not from the nature of these religion which forbiddeth such fruits or workes but from themselues In all this vnderstanding not as you doe but as you should the holie Catholique Religion indeede which yours will neuer proue we ioyne with you and allow what you haue saied And as you supposing your religion to be the holy Catholique religion haue thus answered the obiection drawen from the good workes of professours of our religion and from the bad workes of yours so euen in the same words and maner supposing our religioÌ„ not yours to be that true holy religioÌ„ your obiection against vs grounded vpon the good workes of some of yours lewde liues of some that yet professe ours is also answered For we tel you as you seeme here to tel vs that your works are not ripe works such as good works should be both in matter and maner and therefore no argument more of the goodnes of your religion then the Philosophers works were of the goodnes of theirs that the ill works fouÌ„d in some of our professours ought not to steine our religioÌ„ forasmuch as none of them are iustified but condemned by the same But in the vttering of these things you haue vttered diuers things whereof it is needful to admonish both you and your Reader First in examining S. Iohns words you seeme simply to vnderstand that by being borne of God hee meant nothing else but being baptized as though they were both one or at least so inseparably coÌ„ioined that whosoeuer were outwardly baptized were certainely forthwith thereby inwardly regenerated and new borne wherein you and al that ioyne with you therein shew both great errour and ignorance in the doctrine of that sacrament For though by that sacrament al that haue receiued it are sacramentally new borne and receiued into Christs Church and therein haue had the washing away of their sinnes in the bloud of Christ represented vnto them offered vnto them and sealed and ratified on Gods behalfe to belong vnto them if they inwardly also will imbrace it yet to confound the sacrament of regeneration and the washing away of our sinnes with regeneration and remission of sinnes it selfe or to tye the later so vnto the former as that of necessity whosoeuer is partaker of the former is also partaker of the later is against all good diuinity Scripture and experience For diuinity admitteth not a confounding of the outward signe with the inward grace in a sacrament the scripture experience withall teacheth vs the SimoÌ„ Magus was baptised and yet no sounde diuine euer helde that forthwith thereby he was inwardly regenerated for by his fruites the contrary by and by euidently appeared Act. 8. Againe if outwardly to be baptised were by by to be regenerated then al that haue beene baptised haue beene inwardly regenerated all that are baptised once must needs be so which thing if it were so why how coÌ„meth it to passe that many neuer shew any fruites of regeneration and die giuing plaine euidence that they were neuer borne anew notwithstanding they were baptised and that there is no more hast made to baptise Turkes Iewes and whomsoeuer we can come by But it seemeth that as you holde this errour of baptisme that to defend it withall you are of opinion that a man once may be truely regenerated and so the childe of God iustified and sanctified in the bloud of Christ through grace and yet
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
as you are and that hee suffered death to sustaine your Religion Then let vs see what good fruit this did produce vnto vs those that haue writen the stories of Boheme and among others d Your authour you know was a great papist and afterwardes a Pope therfore worthily he is to be suspected as a partiall reporter and yet cap. 35. before he is enforced to coÌ„fesse that the Senate had secretly murdered so many of those that called the Pope Antichrist that the bloud of theÌ„ running out of the gate bewraied it whereupon this and some other extremities followed Aeneas Siluius doe testifie that in the yeare of our Lorde God 1418. there was a certaine monke that became an Hussite in the citty of Prage which is the Metropolitane of that kingdome the which accompanied with a number of companions as zelous as himselfe they did execute so horrible a cruelty that eleuen of the principall magistrates were driuen to flye from the Citty to saue their liues and seuen more for in all they were 18. being taken by them they did cast them out at the windowes of their owne houses and did kill them with their speares as they fell This was done Sigismondus being then Emperour in the time of Martin the first Pope of Rome of that name Vneslaus being then king of Boheme The next yeare after the death of this saied Vneslaus they did spoile a This al is too much and more then either your authour or the euidence of the matter wil beate by far al the monasteries Abbeies and Churches of of the saied kingdome And among others one Iohn Zischa who was their captaine in the Cittie of Prage he made them all passe through the edge of the sworde without sparing man woman or childe And the like was done in another towne of the saied kingdome called Messim the yeare 1423. It were too tedious to write all their cruelties they did not care whither those of their coÌ„pany were of their sect or no b This is your slander for any thing that I can see in your author or any where else but indeed no pâ—ople sâ— barbarous but you caÌ„ finde in your hearts to vsâ— them against good Christians yea he hath bene a Pope of Rome that hath betraied a Christian Emperour into the hâ—ndâ— of the Turkes for so dealt Gregory 9. with the Emperâ—ur Fredericke witnes Caspinian for some were Idumeans some Palestines some Moabites and some other Amelecites euen as of your bountifull goodnesse ye call all those that will not be of your sect Papists Infidels Hypocrites Idolaters and therefore we may iustly saie that you are their right heares apparent although yee haue gone somewhat before them and as our sauiour saied accomplished the measures of your fathers by the heroicall acts that you haue done in this c You may wholy thanke your selues for the desolate estate of France almost desolate kingdome of France there needeth no other witnes to proue it but the testimonie of your owne eies and eares which haue hearde and seene more almost then any man can write Therefore I beseech you not to reproch any more the abuses of our ecclesiasticall ministers for although it be so that they haue neede of some reformation yet I doe thinke it is necessarie to choose some better staied persons then you are d If you may be iudge this wil easily be the sentence for you haue done more harme in fiue yeares then ours haue done in 1500. S. Augustine in the first booke of the cittie of God e Capite 1. you might haue added doeth magnifie in the Christians behalfe the diuine fauour of God for he doeth write that when the Gothes did destroie and spoile the citty of Rome the Romans although they were not Christians did retire themselues for their sauegard into the churches and Temples of the martyrs And the Gothes being but a barbarous nation had that respect to God that they neuer durst nor would enter into those holy places to doe them any displeasure f It is a wonder that yoâ— that haue so openly slaiâ—e thousands in Châ—rches since your most barbarous and faithles massacres of late in France began as it is notoriously knowen not yet beyond the memory of man in Merindall and Cabriers should yet bee so impudent to obiect this to vs as a fault which yet you haue not proued to haue beene committed by vs wherein you glory as a vertue You which make so great profession of the Gospell haue shewed your selues a great deale more cruell then those barbarous people for they did pardon all those that went to the Temples and you haue in manie places spoiled the churches and murdered al those that yee found in them so that one might well saie to you that that Optatus Myleuitanus in his booke con Parm. Donatist the which was that the Donatists ought to be content you likewise to haue wounded the members of the Church and to haue deuided the people of God f If you would haue learned this lesson it had beene well with vs. at the lest you should haue spared the alters and the teÌ„ples not to make warre against the stones The XXXV Chapter NOw in this you craue the keies to enter by into our garden to visite our trees that so you maie see the fruites of our religion hauing gotten in in your owne pleasant conceit after you had cast your eies about you and looked a while vpon our trees first you bid vs read all the stories since Christ and tell vs that so doing wee shal finde that all those sects that haue left your Romish Religion or Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare being seperated from you then they did in an hundreth before Now doing as you will vs we finde indeed great hurt hath beene done by the ancient heretiques for the space of six hundred yeares that haue seperated themselues from the Roman Church that then was but withall we finde that our Church is farre liker that Church then your Roman Church that now is and since what hurt soeuer hath beene done by one or other that haue seperated themselues froÌ„ you though we challenge not communioÌ„ with euery one that hath so done your owne doings we finde in stories hath far exceeded theirs in al kinde of impiety Thus hauing in these general words set a good face vpoÌ„ it as though you could say very much of the bad fruites which you finde growing of our Religion you beginne at the yeare 1418 with the sturs in Bohemia laying to our charge the murdering of seuen magistrates of Prage by a certaine Monke and his companions sundry other things done by Iohn Zischa and his army in the time of those warres there then you lay to our charge also once againe al the troubles of late in France preferring vs for cruelty before the Goathes that conquered Rome and yet spared their Temples and those that
Donatists in murdering those that we found in your Temples A poore simple man perhaps that reades these things in your booke will thereupon gather that you of your side are men that can neuer bee charged with any disorderly insurrections and rebellions and that your side altogither abhorreth cruelty and neuer practised any For who would thinke that of all other you would bee so ready so especially and vehemently to charge vs with these things vnlesse you were the clearest men in the world in them But vnderstand Christian reader that this is but their policy to deceiue thee for there were neuer men more iustlie and deepely to bee charged with these thinges then these men are For if wee looke but into the stories of our owne countrey wee shall finde that scarce one king hath passed his raigne without rebellion for a long time togither and that chiefely by meanes of the Popes cursing and banning them for money matters This the stories of Henrie the second king Iohn Henrie the third Edwarde the second Richard the second Henrie the fourth sixt seuenth and eight and of late time the stories of Edwarde the sixt and of her Maiestie that now is Queene Elizabeth doe make most cleare For in all those Princes tymes wee reade of great troubles and ciuill warres in this land and that alwaies especiallie stirred vp by the Popes and their fauourers if they had not what they would Sure I am they will not nor can saie that they that were the authours and doers herein were of our Religion but of theirs The like may bee saied of other kingdomes since the time that their Religion hath florished most And certaine it is that none were euer in these parts of the world since they came to their height greater troublers of Christendome then their Popes themselues For in Italie vnder the names of Guelphes and Gibelines in Cicilie Naples and Arragon for titles of those kingdomes and in Germanie and France for the translating this way and that way the Empire they haue beene the cause of most long and bloudy warres And to passe ouer all the most sauage partes played by these men that would seeme to haue their hands so free from bloudshed especiallie in Churches of late yeares in France in killing and murdering of Protestantes as couragiouslie in Churches as in any other places where either by force or subtlety they could surprise them let them call to their remembrance what was done by a famous Captaine of theirs Minerius of late vnder pretence of a commission from Frauncis the king of France to the poore Christians of Merindoll and Cabriers and the townes thereabout and I thinke they shall bee inforced to confesse that they are not the men they would seeme to bee For in that story it appeareth that after they had by a decree in the high court of Prouince for the not appearance of ten men of Merindoll adiudged that towne houses and trees to be made euen with the ground and all the inhabitants thereof men women and children to bee consumed with the fire and that after their prelates and great men had long laboured in vaine to put this decree in execution that in the ende this Minerius being president in Prouince handled the matter so by false informing of the king that he obtained a most bloudy commission from Frauncis then king of France through the helpe of the Cardinal of Turnon to execute that arrest Wherein though his commission stretched onely to Merindoll hee behaued himselfe so with the assistance that quicklie he got that in short space he vtterly destroied Merindol Cabriers and other townes and villages thereabouts to the number of 22 giuing commission to his souldiers to spoyle ransacke burne and to destroy altogither and to kill mā woman and childe without al mercy sparing none which commission they executed in the cruellest maner that their filthy and bloudy hearts could deuise rauishing both women and maidens and putting them to all the torments they could imagine cutting of the paps of some ripping open the bellies of other some and so most tirannously murdering al they could get At Cabriers thirty men he caused to bee hewen in pieces in a medow neare the towne and there he tooke .40 women and caused them to be put into a barne ful of hey and straw and so there to be kept in with pikes whiles they the barne and all were burned and there also he sent a Captaine of his Iohn de Gay to go with a company of ruffians to the Church where were a great number of women young children to murder them all which he did sparing neither young nor olde and so one way and other eight thousand were slaine in that towne And but for to much troubling of the reader a number as tragicall stories as this might bee set downe of their dealings against the poore seruants of God in diuers and sundry other places and namelie also not long after these thinges were done in the countrey of Piedmont and thereabout but euen this is sufficient to make any man see especiallie this storie beeing so famous and done of so late yeares that your forehead must needs be growen very hard yet to obiect such things to vs whereof you your selues haue beene most notoriouslie guiltie You haue tolde vs before that wee must not seeke to blemish your Religion with the bad fruites wee finde vpon you for your Religion condemneth them which might iustlie haue stayed you from going about to staine our Religion with these things especially For sure I am that our Religion condemneth seditiō rebelliō forbiddeth subiects to impeach their Princes safety dignity either by word or deede detesteth al kinde of such barborous cruelty and tiranny Wheras it may bee iustly doubted that howsoeuer your Religion condemne some other grosse faults that be common in men of your side yet it liketh well of these and such like kinde of dealings because it is a common thing for your great Prelates to be the chiefe furtherers thereof and to haue such things attempted vnder commission from your catholicke kings your Popes of Rome And therefore though that your rule weakē yea fully answere this obiection of yours against vs though it were grāted that these things which you obiect were true yet it doeth not take away ours in this respect made against you The XXXVI Chapter YOu a The answere is to your shame make vs but a very slender answere saying that we were the first that you doe no other but that that we haue taught you b That may be but sure I am if you should deny it I know stories to your shāe report that you should say vntruely If we should saie the contrary I know who should say the trueth but to auoide all quarels the best is following the councel of our Sauiour to giue you more then you demand Let vs put the case that we should cōfesse to be
the first doth it follow therefore that your matter is good c No but it followeth that then you may be ashamed to note that as a fault in vs whereof you are first and more guilty I pray doe but consider the verdict that you both giue of your selues of vs. We are according to your sacred gospell Apostolical iudgement no other but poore and simple infidels superstitious Idolaters but coÌ„trariwise you are Apostles Prophets Euangelists the true children of God Seeing then that God hath shewed you so much fauour poured vpon you the bountifull giftes of his grace how haue yee sought so cruellie to d If any of our profession haue doâ—e so we neither commend them nor allow of their maner of dealing you doe of the like in yours reuenge your selues against his expresse commandement Is this the way of reformation to shew your selues as il as we or worse Seeing that the matter falleth out so plainely I pray you be not obstinate giue place vnto the best to reforme the rest for to be worse then you I e Your opinion God be thaÌ„ked is no great preiudice vnto vs. thinke none can be found You my masters that can make such tedious sermons and raile at large against our Popes and Bishops whie doe you passe ouer so lightly the faults of your f We doe not lightly passe oueâ— the faultes of our ministers ministers you set out gloriously the titles of Apostles Prophets Euangelists and extraordinarie messengers of God for your selues as good Godfathers ye now Christen our Popes and Bishops calling them rauening and g In so calling them we caâ—l but a spade a spade a fig a fig. greedie deuouring wolues In this ye do greatly abuse the intellectioÌ„ of the scriptures for if you marke vvell that that our Sauiour doeth saie yee shall finde that yee run farre wide of the text and the similitude of the wolfe doeth full well appertaine vnto your ministrie There he doeth declare the difference that is betwixt the good shepheard and the bad which he doeth call Mercenarium the wolfe * John 10. The good Shepheard is he that doeth hazard venture his life for his flocke the ill Shepheard is he that taketh the milke and the woole froÌ„ the sheepe letteth theÌ„ rome without taking any care to keepe them h And this we finde iâ— hath bene â—f long the very nature and property of yours The wolues seeing theÌ„ rome abroad scattered froÌ„ the flocke doeth deuour all those that are ill kept The good shepheard is our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles and all the good Bishops that did florish in olde time and all the holy Confessours and martyrs that haue liued in the golden age when the bloud of our Sauiour Christ was yet hot boyling in their harts The ill shepheards haue followed after which haue not cared for their sheepe The wolues which are the heretiques seeing this haue scattered the sheepe out of the fold of Christ which is the catholike Church where they had beene borne spiritually that is to say regenerated with the grace of the holy ghost the Sacrament of baptisme to follow the sects of perditioÌ„ If al our shepheards had bene as careful to keepe their flockes as they ought to haue beene your Congregation had neuer beene so strongly builded as it is at this day in France And therefore you offer your Church if it may be so called great wrong when you speake against the abuses of ours i Indeed because your Religion the principal pillers thereof are plants hâ—t the heauenly father planted neuer therefore you are and shall be rooted vp by the rootes for our sinnes haue beene and are the principall foundations of your building And euen as the worme is nourished in the Aposteme with the ill humors euen so you feede of our faultes are nourished with our sinnes your fire burnes with our wood k You must ameÌ„d both your liues and religion or else it will be wide with you I can tell you and if we woulde amend our liues I know how soone your religion would l The gates of hel shal neuer preuaile against ours decay And therfore our Pastours are not wolues but they haue permitted the wolues to deuour their sheepe and so they shall answere for them before the throne of the eternall Iudge m Your sheepherds then by your owne confessioÌ„ haue bene lewde idle and negligent shepeherdes who doeth aduertise them by the Prophet Ezechiel that they shal answere for all the mischiefes that happen vnto their sheepe manie of the vvhich are scabbed and full of diseases and therefore I would haue you to cause some body to choose among yours and ours those that are best to the ende that through this diuision and your aide wee may take the rest I thinke that if any thing condemne vs it wil bee this cause forasmuch as we haue continued in that doctrine which was preached vnto vs at the first as you your selues n Yes that we can and say most truely too cannot denie if you will confesse the trueth The XXXVI Chapter YOu would haue your reader beleeue that we haue no further answere to your former obiection but your example and therefore in this chapter you bring vs in answering onely for our defence that you were the first and that we learned so to doe of you whereunto first you answere that you know who should saie the trueth if you should say the contrary and then supposing that our answere were true you tel vs that our answere will not serue because we should not haue learned so cruelly to reuenge our selues against Gods expresse commandement of you whom we count poore simple infidels and superstitious idolaters But I trust the indifferent reader may see by that which I haue writen that this is not our only answere and that we answering thus if you should say the contrary he now knoweth that it is you and no other that therein should speake contrary to the trueth Indeed we coÌ„fesse that we should not learne of you nor of any other cruelly to seeke to reuenge our selues for the Lord hath forbid vs to reuenge our selues for vengeance is his and he wil doe vengeance Rom. 12.19 And if any of our side haue transgressed this rule we coÌ„mend it not in them neither do we incourage other to follow any such exaÌ„ple but yet withal we tel you and you know it to be most true that such may be the oppression of Gods seruants and the tiranny of their enemies towards them that he may as he hath done extraordinarily stir vp some amongst them to reuenge their quarrels and to deliuer them out of their enemies hands though such extraordinary examples are not to bee drawen into ordinary imitation And though there bee no reason why wee should learne to doe ill of you of whom we account so euill yet there is reason why you
our redemption vpon the Crosse In taking therfore bread a part calling it his body brokeÌ„ afterwards wine and tearming it his bloud shed for many to the remission of their sins it was his purpose that by the vse of this sacrament vntill his coÌ„ming againe his Church should set forth his death and passion and so the separation of his body bloud the one froÌ„ the other you by this your deuise inuented for the maintenaÌ„ce of your Helena transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ make it to serue to a quite contrary end naÌ„ely to teach the coniunctioÌ„ stil of his body and bloud together and so to be a sacrament in effect to deny his death passion Of you therfore it may again most iustly be said that once Christ said of your right forefathers the Scribes and Pharisees in his time you are they y strein a gnat and swalow a camel and that for your owne traditions make no reckoning of the commandements of God Mat. 15. 29. Mar. 7. And certaine it is that whiles you and others of whoÌ„ you haue learned al these ceremonies of yours haue takeÌ„ vpon you thus to adde vnto Christs ordinance of baptisme such a nuÌ„ber of needles ceremonies especially vrging theÌ„ and vsing them as you doe al these welâ— therupoÌ„ directly follow you seeke to make the day light of the new Testament euen as darke as the night of the old by your new fouÌ„d figures and types you strongly lead meÌ„ to think that the simplicity of Christs institution of this sacrament was not decent and sufficiently ful of maiesty for the dignity of such a sacrament you by the multitude and pompe of your solemne ceremonies darken and obscure these things that are essential necessary thereunto indeed you take the effects inward graces apperteining to the right vse of baptism froÌ„ it coÌ„municate theÌ„ wtout other commaÌ„dement or promise from God to things but of meÌ„s inueÌ„tion lastly forcibly you thereby occasion meÌ„ to think that the integrity fulnes of this sacrament dependeth vpon these Howsoeuer therfore you would seeme from sundry places in Aug. here quoted by you to fetch credit for them yet these things being true which I haue saied as they are they well considered seeing in Augustines time it is certaine that neither there were so many nor those that were so superstitiouslie were then vrged or vsed we may be sure that hee would if he were now aliue to see and vnderstand all these thinges most vehemently write and speake against you therein For speaking but of the rites and ceremonies and the maner of vsing of them that were in his time hee greatly shewed his dislike then both of the multitude and maner of pressing them vpon men saying Hoc nimis doleo c. I cannot but extreamly sorrow for this that many things which most holesomly are commaunded in the diuine books are lesse cared for and all things are full of so many presumptions Epi. 119. And further he addeth in the same Epistle touching the same quamuis ista contra fidem non sint c. and though these things be not against faith yet wheras the mercy of god would haue religion free burdened with most few and most manifest sacraments to be obserued these with seruile burdens to presse it that more tollerable is the state of the Iewes who although they knowe not the time of their liberty yet they are subiect to the burdens of the law and not to humane presumptions and therefore his opinion in the ende is flat of all such that assoone as may bee without all doubt they be to be cut off in the same Epistle also Yea Pope Stephanus as he is cited of Gratian dist 63. Quia sancta speaking of humane orders aboue the election of Popes saieth plainely that if any of his predecessours did some things which then might be faultles and after they were turned into errour and superstition which is the cause of these your ceremonies which we mislike in you most flatly sine tarditate antiquâ cum magnâ authoritate destruantur a posteâ—s that is without any slacknes and with great authority let them of them that come after be destroied which assertion of his he doeth ground vpoÌ„ the example of good Ezechias in breaking the brasen serpeÌ„t which Moses had made c. And whereas you vnder your Tridentine curse would binde all churches to the strict obseruing of all these your solemne ceremonies you know or at least should that that is contrary to the ancient doctrine of Christian liberty in such things and to the practise and experience of the primitiue Church Annicet and Polycarp the East Church and the West you know a long time freely differed about the time of the obseruation of Easter and yet pacem saieth Irenaeus in vniuersâ ecclesiâ c. that is both parts throughout the whole church kept and maintained christian peace Euseb lib. 3. cap. 23. and so likewise there hee shewes that there had beene a long time great difference about the fast before Easter both for the time of the coÌ„tinuance and otherwise yet that thereby rather in his opinion the vnity of faith was coÌ„mended then hindred And of Gregories answere to Leander touching the dipping of the baptized once or thrise the answere being as it was is reported by your owne Gratian de consecr dist 4. that howsoeuer the party was once or thrise dipped it was to be counted baptised you might learne that there is no such necessity as you imagine to haue generally throughout the whole church of Christ one precise forme of rites ceremonies to be kept that touch lesse the substaÌ„tial parts of the sacrament then this did That Gregory could say to fortifie that answere of his in vnâ fide nihil officit sanctae ecclesiae consuetudo diuersa that is the diuersity of custome or fashioÌ„ doeth not hurt the church continuing in one faith And our Cronicles doe plainely testify that neither Eleutherius bishop of Rome about the yeare 180. though king Lucius here sent vnto him for the Roman lawes to frame his people by would binde him thereunto nor yet the foresaied Gregory answering Augustine the Monks question would tie him then for the ordering of the church here to the Ceremonies and customes of Rome But the first sent Lucius for his direction to the lawes of God being without exception and not to the RomaÌ„ laws which might he confesseth be reproued and the other in his answere to Augustines third demaund how it came to passe that the faith being but one the ceremonies and customs were so diuers as that there was one maner of masse at Rome an other in FraÌ„ce wils him without respect of place out of many churches to chuse the best orders And who so will reade Socrates 5. booke and the 18.19.20.21 22. Chapters of the same he shall there finde not onely in a number of things diuerse fashions rites
wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie
bouÌ„ds of the Romish Church vniuersal but eueÌ„ as the Donatists shut vp the Church in Africk so do the Romanists within the coÌ„passe of a corner of the world in coÌ„parison of al the rest which they cut of from the coÌ„munion of the Church And yet there is nothing more vsual with Master Ioh. de Albine in this his book theÌ„ to labour to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce the Romish Synagogue with these two things antiquity vniuersality But as for vniuersality it may appeare by that which I haue saied by that which euery one may easily coÌ„ceiue if he coÌ„pare theÌ„ the professe Christ whoÌ„ they reiect as heretickes schismaticks with theÌ„ that receiue honour the popish religion that it is now and hath beene a long time rather with theÌ„ whoÌ„ they thus coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ with theÌ„selues And as for antiquity most certaine it is that the Turks the Nestorians the CircuÌ„cisers may a great deale more iustly brag therof theÌ„ they For the Turkes haue beene in possession of their full Mahometisme these 900 years the heresie of the NestoriaÌ„s hath continued these 1200 years amongst the Georgians And the heresie of them that ioine circuÌ„cision with baptisme continueth yet in Africa in AEthiopia vnder Presbyter Iohn hath these 1500 years whereas popery is not so old as the youÌ„gest of these in that almost al the points therof wherfore it is so called haue beene deuised and brought in since the youngest of these began But put the case that popish religion were ancient indeede and had the greatest part of the world to follow it must it needs therfore follow that it were the trueth the best way No indeed For who can deny that Gentilism or Paganish idolatry wheÌ„ the Apostles were sent first to preach the gospel to the GeÌ„tiles was very ancient For it had welnigh continued then from Noahs fâ—ould vntill that time And neuer was popery of so manie nations so vniuersally receiued as that was And yet who is so simple but he knoweth now for all this that that was a way that led to destruction And if the mystery of iniquity beganne to worke in the Apostle Paules time and yet Antichrist the father thereof was not quite to be abolished before the brightnes of Christs second comming as he plainely teacheth 2. Thess 2. it being withall prophesied that the whore of Babylon Antichrists right patterne should sit vpon many waters that is rule ouer many people and cause the kings and nations of the earth to be drunk with the wine of her fornication as it is Reuelat. 17. who seeth not that euen Antichristianity may be countenanced with great shew both of antiquity vniuersality as certaine and good tokens as the Romanists count these two of the true Church of Christ Which things considered howsoeuer it pleaseth Master Ioh. de Albine here to iest at vs as men like to the children of God in nothing but in this folly that contrary to the fashion of the wise children of the world we chuse rather to trust a few then many we are contented therein to be like them stil and so rather to chuse to enter into the Arke with 8. persons Ge. 7. so to be saued then to refuse so to doe with all the world besides so to be drowned And I would aduise him for al his wisedome to be such a foole as rather with two or three to flie out of Sodom with Lot Gen. 19 then with all the rest to tarry behinde and to be destroied with fire and brimstone For howsoeuer he count this folly Christ who is wisedome it selfe hath charged his to striue to enter in at the straight gate though few go the way many the other broad way For that is the way that wil lead vnto saluation whereas the other leadeth to destruction Luke 13. But the men whom he nameth Luther Zuinglius and Oecolampadius though they be men whom we thinke wel of and whose memories shal be famous in Gods Church for al his blinde prophecie to the contrary when the names of a thousand such as himselfe is shal bee either buried in obliuion or infamous for their resisting of Gods trueth are not the men vpon whom wee build our religion These we account such as in these later daies God vsed to very good purpose to reuiue further to publish and make knowen the doctrine of trueth then it was when they beganne first But the men that we trust and leane vnto in this case are those holy men of God and such like as Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Pet. 1 which spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost so haue left the will of God for our full direction vnto vs in the holy Scripture And these the ancient Christians and Doctours for six hundred yeares after Christ and infinite numbers since euen downe vnto the times of these whom he here nameth as I haue shewed in the fourth Chapter of this booke and else where togither with vs haue followed And further then these writers of the canonical scriptures haue led any of these we doe not nor meane not to follow theÌ„ You shew therefore Master Albine but the nature of your Romish spirit in your confident aduouching without all proofe that these men you name gained soules to the Deuill and that they haue so fold their honesty credit that few now know that euer they liued in the worlde For besides your rash and vncharitable iudging of theÌ„ you speake that which your owne heart tolde you was a lie For you could not bee ignorant but that these mens names are knowen to thousands that neuer read their stories But you say that you agree with vs in not trusting of men but in trusting to the very word writeÌ„ but you and we vary about the interpretation for we interpret it after one sort and you after another we after a new sort and the Catholicke Church whereby wrongfully stil you meane your owne doeth follow the olde exposition of the ancient doctours and traditions with we haue forsaken Herein you say more then either you or any of your fellowes wil stand to For when it commeth to the point the greatest champions of you confesse that a number of the things that are in controuersie betwixt you and vs are without the coÌ„passe of the scripture and therfore least they should be quite reiected they vnder prop them with the rotten prop which yet they labour to make to carry some shew of strength of traditions or of the word vnwriten And in the other point concerning interpretation that therein we vary it is true but that the variety is as you say it is false For we neuer refused the exposition of the Catholicke Church nor to vse the helpe of her sound and Catholicke Doctours or traditions agreing with the word writeÌ„ as helpeth the better to attaine to the right sence therof by Indeed the interpretation of your new Apostata Church of Rome her false doctours and
traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor 〈◊〉 that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs
wordes well you shall finde that hee counted the waie to heauen straight as well in respect of religion as life and that there is nothing more vsuall with Dauid then indifferently without any such nice distinction to vse these wordes waies and pathes both in respecte of the one and the other you might easily perceiue if you were anie thing conuersant in his Psalmes looke vpon Christs time whereunto he had an especiall eie when hee vsed these wordes and you shall finde that true religion was a thing more geyson and rare then in the worlde and had fewer followers then an holy and a vertuous life For eueÌ„ many of the Pharisees and Philosophers made great shew of that that therefore to leade vs rather to thinke that in respect of Religion then maners he had vttered those wordes immediately thereupon he addeth beware of false Prophets And as for Dauid if your argument be grounded vpon that that he placeth the word waies in the first place and pathes in the later if you marke him well you shall oftentimes finde him to inuert that order in the Psalmes And Psalme 109. because you should plainly see that he referreth waies as wel to maners as to ReligioÌ„ he saieth take from me the way of lying and teach me the way of thy statutes And considering that you cannot be ignorant that Idolatry and Paganisme in Christs time was more common then Christs Religion therefore had 10000. that tooke it for true religion in comparison of one that tooke Christs so I wonder that you euer durst thus expound Christs wordes For by your expositioÌ„ he tolde them that it was better for them to embrace paganisme then his Religion for that was the common beaten way and his was but a small bie-path Againe in Liberius his time when it was an hard matter to finde one true Catholique for an 100. Arrians insomuch that Constantine saied vnto Liberius that he alone fauoured Athanasius Theodor. Eccles Hist lib. 2. cap. 16. by your rule Liberius did well in that seeing Arrianisme to be the common waie and his ancient Religion that then was but as a bie-path wherein few walked that he yeelded his subscriptioÌ„ to Arrianisme Indeede it should seem that this Pope Liberius was of your minde so long you care not I am sure as that you may haue a Pope on your side Wel yet if you had but remembred that the Turkish religioÌ„ is at this day hath beene a long time coÌ„mon to moe then your owne religioÌ„ is or euer was it might haue staied you froÌ„ teaching meÌ„ to measure religion by the coÌ„monnes of it or multitude of followers least you should haue so persuaded them to Turcisme But it may be you had rather haue it so seeing in coÌ„parisoÌ„ therof ours is but a narrow path wherein few doe walke then that they should follow vs. If your skil in interpreting of the scriptures in prescribing rules for the direction of men be no better then you haue shewed in this you may very well be a Doctour and great master in your blinde and ignorant kingdome of Popery but in the kingdome of Christ there is little hope that there will euer any great reckoning be made of you The XLI Chapter NOw to turne to the partition that we haue vpon the 34. and 37. of Ezechiel and vpon the tenth of Iohn it is plaine that we are the flockes of weake and sickelie sheepe and your disciples are the sheepe that runne this waie and that waie astraie those that are our a Howsoeuer that title is due vnto them they take it not vnto theÌ„ ill Prelats take vpon them the title of Mercenarii pastoris but vnto your ministers the titles of deuouring wolues may be applied b Onely of such as haue made shipwracke of conscience without anie scrupulositie of coÌ„science for you watch to none other intent but to make the sheepe runne out of the folde and to deuour them because that our pastours haue not taken care to keepe them And although they be not excusable aswell for their silence as for their naughty liues I see not your Patriarchs zealous manifesters amende much themselues the faults that they finde in vs for besides the true and certaine experience that wee haue had by the triall that we haue seene to our cost in this Realme within these fiue or six yeares c Penned then by such that had taught their peÌ„s to write lies I haue read full many a golden Legend of your sacred martyrs and holie Bishops which doe not altogither redound to the honour of your pretended reformed Church And among others Theodore de Beza Caluins successour in the Pontificate seat of the holy city of Geneua of whom such things are preached abroad that if the one halfe of them be true d Neither wil â—e nor any of vs so compare our selues he is scant so good a man as S. Iohn Baptist And because I would not haue you to mislike theÌ„ for their religioÌ„ I wil not alleage to verify this any Catholick author but soÌ„e of Luthers successors your first fouÌ„der who taught you to write so learnedly I would say railingly against the church of Rome Tilemanus Heshusius a minister of the LutheraÌ„s in the * Jn his booke of the true body of Christ in the sacrif writen in Latin book that I haue alreadie noted doeth openlie accuse the saied Beza of great infamy that he did not onlie content e Heat of conteÌ„tion made the man too credulous and so beleeued your malitious parasites that most impudently and falsly haue forged these things of him the fancie of his mind with leading a luxurious a liceÌ„tious life to staine his vow with a bilt of adulterous loue but that that is worse hee himselfe hath set forth in writing all his lasciuious acts the which saieth hee f His lasciuious songs and Epigrams he made and published whiles he was yours whereof he hath publickly in printe testified his repentance mislike since he was ours he hath song in sacrilegerime to the Instrument to manifest his sinne to the whole sight of the worlde And in that verie booke hee doeth say that Beza who as I haue tolde you is a Bishop of the holie Cittie of Geneua is an infamous monster whose naughtie life any man may reade set forth by him selfe in his owne Epigrams and notwithstanding saieth he to heare him speake you would thinke hee vvere Saint Iohn Baptist for he can talke of nothing but of his holie life This same very minister in the booke where he writeth these things he doeth laie to g The more shame for him for it is a monstrous and notorious slander Bezaes charge that he tooke with him to Geneua another mans wife without the knowledge of her husband whose name was Candida h Will an argument from one to al follow with papists and yet this one not proued such an one neither
beutified with most execrable and filthy pictures to set out that sinne withall And Petrus Aloysius notwithstanding that most moÌ„strous and impudent Sodomitry of his committed by force in the sight of his men as both Vergerius Sleidan report out of certaine Italian stories vpon the body of Cosmuscherius bishop of Fane a man then of 30. yeares olde at the least was deare and highly esteemed in the eies of his filthy adulterous and incestuous father Pope Paulus the third And for the other point touching Beza his wife certaine it is that she was an honest woman of good report when he maried her and since alwaies Christianity hath behaued her selfe as becommed an honest matronâ— for any thing that I euer could either heare or reade worthy of any credit to the contrary And who but they that haue made a shipwracke of all shame honesty would euer haue broched such a monstrous vntrueth as this that he ranne away with her shee being an other mans wife to Geneua her husband yet liuing Beza himselfe in that preface that I named last of his protesteth not onely the falshood of this but saieth further that if any mortall creature can iustlie touch him with the least and lightest suspition of adultery hee refuseth no seate of iudgement And if there were any ground of trueth â—n this is it likely that this matter would neuer haue bene prosecuted against him in no court of France or elswher he hauing so many enemies Nay we may be sure that if there had beene any trueth either in this or in any such thing now saied against him hee had heard of it at Poysy One Papist as Parsons a father Iesuite telling the tale saieth shee dwelt in Kalender streete and Frarin an other in his railing oration saieth shee dwelt in Harpe streete if Daniel were aliue and sate in iudgement these fellowes agreeing no better then the two wicked iudges did in their accusing of Susanna were like to haue and well worthy were they the iudgement that those two wicked iudges had But in the meane time with patience we must possesse our soules committing our cause to God who one day wil be auenged of such lying and flaunderous tongues and that neuer looking for other but that the Deuill as he hath beene a lier from the beginning and a false accuser of Gods seruants so he will continue and shewe himselfe in his instruments vnto the worlds ende Though you haue no other grouÌ„d but the report of an enemy which he gaue forth vpon the report of most malicious persons and otherwise diuers waies infamous for all this your diuelish slaunder of Beza which euidence you knew well enough is starke naught you yet proceede to your conclusion that he was such a man yea that thereby wee may see that the principall pillers of our Church are bawdes thieues and adulterers as confidently as if your euidence had beene most strong Wherein your fault is not onely that your argument holdeth not taken from no better grounds against the particuler man himselfe but that also you reason from the fault of one to all the chiefe pillars of our Church and so you put a great deale more in your conclusion then was in the premisses which in reasoning is an intollerable fault And if a man should reason in like maner Pope Iohn the 12. was an adulterer Iohn the 13. was slain coÌ„mitting it Iohn the 18. put to death both his eies put out by the means of Gregorie about it pope Clement the 6. caused to be poisoned as soÌ„e write Lodouick the Emperor Siluester the secoÌ„d was a notable coniurer Vrbanus drowned fiue of his dearest Cardinals though your owne Cronicles testifie these therfore al your Popes the verie heades of your church were such would you allow of such an argument I am sure you would not yet hath it an 100. times better ground and reason in it then yours As yet therefore for any thing you haue saied the beame is in your owne eies and so you are not fit persons to go about to get the moate out of ours before you haue cleansed your owne better The XLII Chapter YOV that can saie so well that one ought to liue according to the scripture and that you will by it reforme vs why doe yee not beginne with your selues to giue vs the a We doeâ— yet when we haue done what we can there wil be some amongst vs whom you may too iustly charge with these and other sins because alwaies there will be some hypocrites and time-seruers but seeing we doe by our religion coÌ„demne such vsages those that embrace our religioÌ„ in sincerity condemne these sins and absteine from them neither we nor our religion are to be charged with them better example FroÌ„ whence come so many kinde of vsuries excessiue interests as you doe vse You call our church abhominable and adulterous He that is among you without sinne let him cast the first stone You doe abhorre our idols as you tearme them talking of our images how commeth it to passe then that some of yours should come so neare vs that are Idolaters as to robbe our Churches and to carie awaie the images and reliques and to go and sell them in other places But now to make an ende of this discourse although it vvere so that your works were the best of the world yea whollie without spot or sin as some of b If any so affirm we renounce them they are none of vs. you doe affirme yet vvere not they sufficient to moue vs to change our Religion nor to forsake that that our forefathers haue taught vs for although it be so that our sauiour Christ was as iust and as innoceÌ„t as anie caÌ„ be hath beene or euer shall be yet neither his holie life nor the Scriptures that he did alleadge to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophets nor the testimonie of S. Iohn Baptist all these things togither were not sufficient to perswade the Iewes to forsake their old lawes and to receaue the Gospell without the testimonie of the great c Neither would they beleeue when hee had wrought his miracles no more would you if we should miracles that he did in their presence He doeth confesse this plainly where hee saieth if d Ioh. 15. And so he saith if I had not spoken vnto theÌ„ they should not haue had sin but now they haue no cloake for their sin v. 22. I had not done in their presence the works and miracles that neuer any had done they should haue no sinne This sentence is most notable and worthy to bee grauen in the hearts of all Catholiques to assure their conscieÌ„ces which are troubled with such diuersitie of opinioÌ„s For although it were so that you my masters were the honestest men of the worlde sent from God to teach and preach a true doctrine yet should we be excusable before God for not receauing of your commission euen
that which he should this marke is euident vpon them and not vpon vs. But if by the common knowen catholicke church of Christ that hee talketh of here and alwaies else he vnderstand as it is apparent that hee doeth their Roman church that now is most beggerly still hee beggeth that almes that neuer an honest and wise man in the world would giue him For in all these points here named by him that Synagogue a long time hath taught and doeth still so contrary to the true and chast spouse of Christ that though nether seditiously nor contentiously yet vehemently and earnestly it is the part of all skilfull painfull and faithfull ministers of the Lord to cry out against her and her so doing And thus onely haue we and doe we labour to manifest vnto the world their corruptiō in doctrine in these points least thereby to their perdition they should be seduced by them Otherwise whatsoeuer he saieth neither he nor all his faction shall euer he able to proue against vs that we either deny any thing or hold otherwise of any point here reckoned vp by him then we haue most sound and good warrant for both out of the scriptures and out of the ancientest and soundest monuments of antiquity But where as he saith that we flatly deny that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible church to bee heard speake perceaued or seene hee shamefully and vntruely reporteth y◠of vs. Onely cōcerning the visibility or not visibility of Christs church this wee holde and teach that who be the right members thereof whereof properly she doeth consist it is not discerneable by humane sence but knowen onely vnto God and vnto those to whom God giueth spirituall sences to discerne it withall but if otherwise by the church of Christ here vpon earth be vnderstoode generally all those that by outwarde profession seeme vnto men to be thereof then we hold and confesse that Christ hath alwaies had here vpō earth since the beginning and wil haue to the ende a visible spouse and church to be both heard speake perceiued seene though not alwaies alike nor of al sorts kinde of men as I haue shewed at large in the first and fourth chapters of my answere to Albine The onely thing that we deny is that it alwaies hath beene and euer must be so visible and apparent both for multitude and gouernment that euery one should be able therby not only to discerne it but frō time to time downe frō Christ to the ende of the world to name the principall persons by whose orderly succession one to another wtout interruption it hath bene cōtinued in one place or other Now hereupon to infer that wee simply deny it to be heard seene or perceiued argueth that they that doe so are growen so grosse that they can neither heare see nor perceiue that there is any difference betwixt the maner of being of a thing the simple being therof Iohn that neuer taught that the Church of Christ here vpō earth should neither be heard seen or perceiued yet teacheth Re. 12. that she would be driuē by persecution of the dragō into the wildernes where for a time in cōparison that she was before she should be hiddē Christ that hath taught vs that hel gates shal neuer preuaile against his church Mat. 16. yet foresheweth that towards his secōd cōming true faith should hardly be found vpō earth Luke 18. And doe we not read 2 Thessalonians 2. and 1. Timothy 4. to that end that before that day there shall be a great departing from the faith which by that which we read Reuelations 17 and 18. we may vnderstand shal be so great and so farre preuaile that the whore of Babylon there figuring vnto vs Antichrist and his kingdome shall haue vniuersality and all outward pompe that may be so on her side that shee shall make kings and people yea all nations drunke with the wine of her fornications During the fulfilling of which prophesies if it bee hard for some either to heare or see the Church or to vnderstand where shee is so that they cannot name the persons successiuely that she consisteth of no maruell For distance of time and place and ignorance or vnfaithfulnesse in Croniclers ioyned with a speciall care that Antichrist would alwaies by all likelyhoode haue to keepe from men all meanes to make thē to haue knowledge of these things least therby in the end he should fall into his cōsumption in respect of sundry former times and vs that liue now might make this impossible And yet he that should say so doeth not simply say as he here chargeth vs. But Gods name be blessed for it the Church yet was neuer so driuen into the wildernesse by the dragon or oppressed by Antichrist but as I haue shewed in my fourth Chapter of my foresaied answere to Albine some haue so heard seene and perceiued where she was and who were her true mēbers at al times that there was neuer time or state of the Church so bad but that we are able to nāe some of her frēds and where they liued or died in the profession of her trueth against antichristian abhominations As for the other points here reckoned vp by him gētle reader though he would make thee beleeue that they are such as in euery point as they teach thē now haue alwaies before beene taught of the true Catholicke church of Christ it is nothing so as in great part I haue shewed in answering of Albine as others thorowly vniuersally haue shewed of them all in seueral bookes writen against them for their Antichristiā doctrine therein Howbeit least by his words in the meane time whiles thou gettest leasure to peruse what we haue writen cōcerning these points thou shouldest cōceiue worse of our doctrine thē in any shew we deserue vnderstand that we preach against none of Christs sacraments neither doe we deny any sacrament of his in that sence to be a sacrament that he appointed it neither doe we deny Christs reall true most certain presence in the eucharist to the soule of the right receiuer onely a grosse presence of his body to the mouth of euery receauer fancied by thē cōtrary both to scripture the nature of a sacramēt of Christ himselfe is the presence that there we deny Indeed we as zealously as we can preach against their masse denying it to be any propitiatory sacrifice either for quicke or dead much lesse for both because we haue learned out of the epistle to the Hebrewes that only Christ is cōsecrate of his father as the fit Priest of the new testament in his owne person once for all to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the redemption of mankind that we learne by the words of the institution of this sacrament that it was neuer instituted to repeate that but with faith and thankesgiuing to make a commemoration thereof and rather to offer and deliuer Christ to vs thē
euer those that are sanctified Heb. 10. that he is able to saue perfectly those that come vnto God by him He. 7. that as there is but one God so there is but one mediatour betwixt God and man the man Christ Iesus 1. Tim. 2. and that S. Paul most confidently tolde the Galathians that if with that opinion that the false Apostles had taught them they would be circumcised Christ should profit them nothing at all they were falne from grace Gal. 5. And yet notwithstanding the most cleare and plaine euidence of these scriptures and sundry other places to the like effect so giuen is the church of Rome that now is and hath beene a long time to spoile Christ of a great part of this special honor glory that is due vnto him that it can abide nothing in the world worse then that men should he driuen by the schoolemaster the law out of themselues quite in Christ fully and freely soly and wholy by faith to seeke for their iustification here and saluation hereafter And therefore in it that in the deepe policy of Sathan to blunt the edge of the law that it haue not this force to breake and make contrite the heart of man with the ougly sight of his owne infinite sinnes and punishments due vnto him for the same to driue him to hunger and thirst after that effectuall iustification and saluation offered vnto men by the gospell in Christ they teach that man hath free-will to good that concupiscence or the first motions to sinne rising in man not consented vnto are no sinne that many sinnes euen for their owne littlenes are veâ—iall that by good deedes man may satisfied God for his misdeedes that man may fulfill the law yea that man may haue workes of supererogation more then hee needes for his owne saluation and that men by their workes maie merit a great part of their owne saluation yea haue merits both before iustification flowing from their pure natural faculties and powers to prouoke GOD to thinke it congruum that is meete and conuenient that euen therefore hee should bestow his grace vpon them and after merits de condigno that eueÌ„ for their very worthines deserue an euerlasting reward of blisse at Gods hand both for themselues and others And when they would seeme to be come vnto Christ and to beleeue in him yet in no case wil they trust to him alone and that that hee hath done and still doeth for them but then his sufferinges and their owne his merits and their owne and their frendes his sacrifice and their owne in their masse his mediation and the mediation of Saints and angels and an hundreth things els euen childish and rediculous for the matter of saluation must be trusted vnto That it is thus all the world seeth and they themselues in printed bookes stand vpon it that it must be thus and that we are heretiques because we will not let them alone in thus apparelling themselues their frends and their toies with the spoiles of our Christ and so their very glory is their shame A Christ that is so base minded in the office of iustifying and sauing of mens soules thus to be iumbled and ioined with so many partners and helpers is a Christ of their owne deuising such an one doubtles as we can heare no news of either in old or new testameÌ„t And therefore out of all question they shall finde that whiles they run a madding after this fansied new Christ of their owne the old true Christ will profit them nothing at all and that they are quite fallen from grace No man whose eies God hath opened aright either to vnderstand the law or the gospel but seeing and knowing these things to be true of them he must needs thinke and bee resolued that popery is euen that mystery of iniquity that Saint Paul speaketh of 2. Thess 2. and that the papists be flat those flase teachers that Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Epistle chap. 3. Which priuily should bring in damnable heresies euen denying the Lorde that hath bought them and so bring vpon themselues swift damnation whom yet many should follow and by whom the way of trueth should bee euill spoken of c. It is needfull therefore I would thinke especialy considering how earnest Saint Peter is there to perswade men to shun such for vs to leaue them and forsake them as we haue the thing which in this behalfe we haue especially to mourne for is that we forsooke them no sooner Howbeit though the better to countenance their Church and religion and to proue vs in thus forsaking of them to haue brought in such a schism as he talketh of he would make thee christian reader beleeue that all the world were at vnity with them in their faith and false bragge as if thou readest the fourth chapter of my answere to Albine and the 11. 37. thou shalt most plainely see It seemeth the man was very impudent or very childishly ignoraÌ„t of histories that would thus write For who of any learning or reading is ignorant that not onely the Greeke church and other Easterne Churches some hundreth yeares before the time that he speaketh of brake of communion with them but that also euen here in these Westerne parts in France Bohemia here in England and elswher long before this time Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus Hierom of Prage had so many followers and pertakers against them and their abhominations that for all the tyranny and most sauage persecutions that they haue vsed to roote them out by from time to time that yet notwithstanding they haue continued doe will stil in one place or other maugre all their malice euen to recompence that whore of Babylon as shee hath deserued at their hands As for the variety of opinions amongst vs that he vpbraydeth vs withall it is an obiection that Iohn de Albine often harped vpon therefore which in answering of him I haue sufficiently I hope answered Only this therfore to yâ— I further say here that though they be more and greater then we like of yet they are nether so great nor many as these our aduersaries by amplifying of this obiectioÌ„ by multiplying of names would seeme to make theÌ„ nor yet in such points but that notwithstanding we all agree in the fundamentall most principal points of christiaÌ„ religion whereby we hope it will thorow Gods goodnes come to passe that we shall shortly also grow to vnity in the rest In the meane time sure I am that they whom by any reason he may say be of vs for our holding felowship and coÌ„munion togither in our confession of the christian faith are all amongst our selues at farre more vnity then such as he liketh of at far better vnity then they be or euer haue beene since they departed froÌ„ vs. As for the Anabaptists diuers others whom sometime they charge vs in this case also withall they know wel enough we
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
forgate one thing that doeth hinder greatlie your commission You should haue shewed God that the commission which he gaue you was like to breede no lesse mischiefe amongst the Papists thē Moses did amōg the Aegyptians For I e And you know we haue iust cause so to thinke and say am sure if anie to trie you would take your oath that you would sweare that the Pope is as ill as Pharao and we as hard hearted as the Aegyptians Therefore why did yee not demande of him a rodde to conuert into a serpent and to passe drie foote ouer the redde Sea f Our vocation is ordinary the message we haue olde and ancient sufficiently confirmed by all the miracles cronicled in the Scriptures and therefore this was needelesse Why did yee not require at his hande that it might please him to authorize his worde preached by your ministers with signes miracles and tokens as he did when hee sent your fellowes the Apostles seeing that you are Prophets how commeth it to passe that you haue not foreseene that wee would not beleeue you for who is hee although he were a Deuill that could not saie as much But we haue one disauowe which God hath giuen to manie which doe report that they doe come from him which doeth greatlie ouerthrowe the authoritie of your commission g These many moe such like doe so fitly paint your Prelates therefore it is that we shun thē as we doe He doeth saie in the 14. of Hieremie the Prophets preach falsely in my name I haue not sent them I haue not commaunded them nor I haue not spoken vnto them but they prophecie vnto you false visiōs and naughty diuinations to deceaue your heartes And likewise in the 27. Chapter I haue not sent them saieth the Lord God they prophecie in my name falsely to the intēt I should forsake you and that aswell you as your prophets should perish Item in the 29. Let not your Prophets seduce you that are amongst you nor your southsaiers and doe not marke the dreames that yee dreame for they doe prophecie falsely vnto you in my name seeing that I haue not sent thē saieth the Lord. c. So that although it were true that God hath sent you as it is false we might with a iust cause pretend an excuse of ignorance and to saie with great assurance that that * Gen 20. Abimilech saied vnto God g That you cannot for you haue the Scriptures of the old and new Testament if you had grace to preserue you frō such blindnes as yee shew in refusing our doctrine which is so warranted as it is there where hee threatned that he would kill him because he kept Abrahams wife O Lord God saied he would you kill a poore simple nation Shall it be saied that we beleeue all those that faine to come in your name haue not you commāded vs by the Apostle * 1. Ioh. 1. h And therefore we are so bold as to try your popish spirit by the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures That we should not beleeue euery spirit and that the Angell of darknes doeth transforme himselfe into an Angell of light Haue not you commanded to bee writen that we should beware which way we take and that such a waie doeth seeme good the which notwithstanding doeth leade vnto damnation and perdition If anie saying that he is our Princes seruant i But we haue both and vnlesse wee can proue we haue beleeue vs not should come to demande a summe of monie in his masters name and that hee had neither his hand nor his seale to warrant his demaund would not wee send him awaie like a false merchant fearing that he would deceaue vs then with greater reason ought we to feare the committing of our faith the hope of our saluation into their hands whom we know not nor that cannot shew anie miracles k You were deceaued these words be not there to cōfirme their preaching as the Apostles did * k Mat. 28. Qui confirmabant sermonem sequentibus signis That is which did confirme their preaching with signes or miracles following l Because there is not like reasō and cause as thē whi◠doe not they say as he saied whose successours they professe to be the signes of my commission Apostleship haue beene accomplished among you with signes and miracles 2. Cor. 12. The XVII Chapter YOu proceede charging vs to haue begon reformation by force but as yet you haue not proued it Vpō the beginning thereof in these later daies or not long after wee graunt some stirres did arise in Germanie France and other places but therein it hath fallen out no otherwise with the renuing and reuiuing the Gospell of Christ then it fell out with the Apostles when they beganne first to preach it For we reade Act. 17.19 that then stirres and tumults there were vsually raysed vp by the enemies thereof to hinder the course thereof And as long as it is not to bee lookt for but that alwaies it will haue some enemies what else can be hoped for but when it springeth beginneth to florish there wil be some stirres and contentions betwixt the frendes and enemies thereof But as the Apostles when for these stirs sake they were charged to be seditious persons might truely cleare them selues in that not they nor the professours of the Gospell were at anie time the authours thereof but rather the enemies thereof so may wee in this same case also doe For either they haue begun of your selues who haue thought by force to stoppe the course of the Gospell or if any haue begon by others as some did in Germanie by the Anabaptistes our men haue beene the forwardest by their writings and otherwise to condemne their doings therein And yet though it should haue fallen out or it may bee proued that in some one place or other there haue beene since this late detection of Popish enormities some disorderly tumults and in the same some vnlawfull force vsed wherewith some indiscreete persons of our side may iustly bee charged as long as it is a thing which we neither like allow nor iustify in them what reason is there that that should be obiected as matter of sufficient disgrace to all the rest of vs and to our Religion also Is it impossible for such thinges to fall out sometimes amongst them that professe Gods trueth euen in well ordered common weales Then truely of al men in the world the men of your profession will bee proued to haue least acquaintance with Gods trueth For neuer were there more broiles hoate contentions and force more vsed to compasse your wils then haue beene amongst you euery seuerall order of Religious men euery abbey euery Cathedrall Church if the stories were searched ministers vnto vs infinite demonstration that there hath nothing beene more vsuall amongst you O the lamentable and most sauage cruell dealing that hath beene vsed
with great approbation by men of your side to bring the poore Indians by force in subiection vnto you And what extreame force and crueltie hath beene vsed of late yeares to subdue the poore Christians of Cabriers Merindoll and other places thereabout and to roote out the professours of the Gospell and their fauourers in France I am perswaded that the Turks neuer vsed more faithles tyrannical and monstrous dealings then the stories and the euidence of the thing declares you haue vsed against these And therefore it being so vsuall a thing with you as it is to promote your Religion by force of all men you are the vnfittest to charge others with that as with a fault which you account so laudable in your selues And yet as though you had saied so much against vs for this as that thereupon it must needs appeare to euery man that we haue neither reason of our saying or doing you further charge vs that herein in seeking namely the reformation of your Church we haue taken vpon vs cōtrary to all laws both diuine and humane being also a party to be our owne iudge wherein you say vntruely of vs for we alwaies haue beene contented to submit both our sayings and doings to the iudgement of the Lord himselfe speaking vnto vs in the writen word and by the same we haue had our sayings and doings often examined and tried to be sound and lawfull in nationall and prouinciall Synodes before we haue attempted the reformation you speake of And secondly herein you charge vs as you did before with that which you your selues are openly guilty of For though your Pope be the speciall party accused by vs yet in all matters in question betwixt you and vs you wil haue him to be the supreme iudge and so the questiō being betwixt you vs whither you be the church or we and whither you hold the trueth or we no other triall will you admit but that we must be iudged by him whither it be so or no. Wherein you deale as if the felon at the bar should refuse all other triall but to be tried by the principall in that felony whither he be guilty or no. Now wheras yet in this our dealing you would resemble vs to him that gaue Christ a blow c. Your errour is manifold therein it seemeth either your negligence was much or that your wits were benūmed For where the story you allude vnto is Ioh. 18. it is quoted in your booke Iohn 15. neither doe you hit of Christs words in rehearsing the answere to him that smote him nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appeare betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church that fellow Christs answer was this if I haue euill spoken beare witnesse if the euill but if I haue well spoken why smitest thou me And you set downe his answere thus if we haue done il proue it before the iudge seeing that you are our accusers as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and vs you shew not wherein it is neither can I gesse wherein you ment it But indeed your dealing with vs considered he carieth a liuely resemblance of a number of you whose property it is to bring vs for our holy profession before your high priest and his chaplaines and then if we chance to answere boldly for our own defence as Christ did though neuer so directly to the purpose to checke vs and strike vs as he did our sauiour for your great prelates may not so be answered But perhaps you wil say that the words that you set downe containe your answere to vs when we checke you for your doings why then set you them downe as the answere made by Christ to him that smote him And if the words be taken as your answere to vs meaning therein such a iudge as either the Pope or one of his sworne men that we should be drawen before such iudges by your owne law here alleaged is against reason for they can be no competent iudges because they themselues are principall parties Our accusation of you we are alwaies ready to proue before the Lord of heauen and earth and before any other indifferent iudges by such deponents and witnesses as will not bee corrupted either by you or vs namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality in the Canonical scriptures Exemption from this iudgement we neuer sought nor will and if your religion flye this kinde of triall and iudgement God hath giuen vs power euen thereby to iudge that you are such as ought to be driuen from possession of such a corrupt religion that dare not shew the face in this court of iudgment because then it knoweth it should bee foyled But yet to holde your Clyents in some lyking of your religion you once againe confidently bragge that it is of one thousand fiue hundred yeares continuance and vpwards and therefore you require vs that would disswade you therefrom to shew our commission sealed and confirmed as so great a matter doeth require and as Moses his was by miracles which in this case to be as necessary for vs as it was for him you striue to proue in the rest of this Chapter and that otherwise you are not to beleeue vs. Wherefore because all this you require at our handes and thinke you may doe it stil only vpon this supposition that your religion is thus ancient as you bragge First let vs consider of that point and then proceede to the rest which you infer thereupon Herein that which I haue writen already both in the later ende of the preface and in my answere to your 4 Chapter doeth sufficiētly discouer the shameles follie and vanity of this your brag howbeit because I perceiue what you lacke in trueth in this matter your purpose is to make vp with the setting a stout countenance vpon it once againe I will take the paines to strip your Church and religiō of this visard of antiquity which done for al your lewd brags I doubt not but that both the one and the other shal be found a yoūgling a new vpstart in comparison of that which you pretend First therfore to begin withal in that the greeke Churches which quite brake of communion with you in the time of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 which is now not aboue 360. yeares ago haue not yet allowed the masse to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and dead do minister no priuate masses either in the Church or else where reserue not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof nor deny the ministring thereof vnder both kindes to any communicant in that also they neuer yet coulde be brought to allow of the supremacy of your Pope nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation extreame vnction purgatory of forbidding their ministers the vse of lawful mariage in which points now a great part of your religion consists euen thereby it may