Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	authority_n	bishop_n	presbyter_n	4,945	5	9.8142	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56736	An answer to Vox cleri, &c. examining the reasons against making any alterations and abatements, in order to a comprehension and shewing the expediency thereof.	Payne, William, 1650-1696.	1690 (1690)	Wing P896; ESTC R36661	22,857	39

agree better with some Constitutions than more substantial food and better Instructions Let the Dissenters crave as long as they will I hope the Church can deny as stifly as they crave unreasonably And I am perfectly of our Author's mind though he had not Dr. Beveridge's Authority for it That to alter the Episcopal Government to take the Power of Ordination from Bishops and place it in the hands of Prsbyters to take away a well ordered Liturgy and bring in extemporary Prayers for publick worship to give every Minister a Jurisdiction and Power of Excommunication and many other things without which some grave Dissenters will not be comprehended is more than the Learned Doctor or any Doctor in England will grant or desire to be granted to them But surely our grave Author knows that the best and wisest if not the gravest Dissenters who are for a National Church whose Interest is most considerable and whose Credit has done the most to keep up Non-conformity that these will be comprehended with something less than what he speaks of and I doe not doubt but the bringing in of those into the Communion of the Church would tend greatly to strengthen its Interest and the Interest of the whole Protestant Religion and to break that lamentable Schism and Separation which weakens both and gives our Popish Adversaries the greatest Advantage against us and which I hope they and we are both weary of If there are some Dissenters so wild that they can never be folded nor brought into any settled Flock or Communion though I would not have them hunted and run down like wild Beasts and therefore I am not altogether so much against the Toleration as our Author is yet I think it would have done more good had the Comprehension took place before it that so the Church might have gathered first before the Separation and not have been left to glean after that has made its full harvest But our Author I perceive is as much afraid at one time that the Dissenters should come in as he is at another that they would not And what says he p. 10. if some leading Presbyterians be by our Alterations let into the Church and advanced to such Preferments as they hope for what security have we that they will not promote Divisions in the Church more dangerous than the Schism they made by Separation from us A secret Enemy within the walls of a well fortified City is more dangerous than an open Foe in the Field How then is this consistent not onely with our Author's Opinion but most serious Protestation in another place p. 26. I do here protest that were it not that the Dissenters have given us an Assurance that though these and many other Alterations should be made it would give them no satisfaction nor bring them into our Communion I would use all the Interest I have for such Alterations and for that end also part with many of the Ceremonies I should think there were a contradiction in these two places and that they would sall out were they not some Pages from one another but surely all things are not right in our Author's Head who has two such different thoughts at the same time but perhaps 't is but a mere struggle between the flesh and the spirit if they should be let in and get Preferments they might keep him and others out and if they would come in the good of it is so visible upon many accounts that a man's reason cannot but desire it and promote it so that there is a natural tenderness and moderation on one side of his head which I suppose is the softest towards Dissenters but on the other side there is a most stiff hatred and aversion to them but which of these shall take place when there is occasion must depend very much upon the Influence of the Moon and the Aspect of the Planets I consess I am not for letting in Enemies into the Church but surely by coming in they become Friends and cease to be Enemies for then they owne the Churches Communion and submit to its Authority and instead of standing out they come in and joyn with it now if any will do this I know no Church is so well fortified as to keep them out nor is there any way to distinguish such secret enemies from its secret friends but 't is a Secret some men have to find out distinctions and make differences between those of the same Communion which is very pernicious and mischievous whoever comes up to the Churches terms of Communion and to full Conformity with it are by no means to be counted secret enemies when if this does not shew them to be open friends every man may as well be suspected to be a secret enemy But if these Dissenters when they are taken into the bosom of the Church should like treacherous Vipers endeavour to sting their Mother or gnaw through her Bowels and attempt all they can to doe mischief to her how shall they be able to effect this and what way shall they accomplish it Will they set up Conventicles in their own Parishes and draw away people from the Communion of the Church of which themselves are Ministers or will they preach or write against those Ceremonies or other things to which they have publickly conformed it would be strange if they should doe this but perhaps they may doe it another way They may be chosen Convocation-men and so have opportunity to oppose and confront the Bishops and though they should pretend great reverence for the Episcopal Order and Authority yet may slight and contemn it as much as open Fanaticks when it does not suit with their humour and like bug Diotrephes love to have the preheminence above it Now if I find they doe this and make a dangerous division in the Church by this means I shall think 'em a sort of Rebellious Presbyters that deserve to be turned out of the Church not as secret but open enemies to the Bishops and that they have forgot a passage or two in Ignatius's Epistles and therefore I shall be very much tempted to be of our Author's mind to have those read hereafter in our Churches for the edisication and reproof of such assuming Presbyters p. 26. I know but one Objection more that can be picked up out of your Author's fardle of important reasons against any Alterations for they lye there like small wares in a Pedler's pack neither sorted nor parcelled but confusedly jumbled together as I suppose they lye in his head but the onely remaining Objection that I can find and I am sure I have done him justice and given full strength to any thing that looked like a reason p. 6. is this That by making Alterations the Church will run the hazard of offending a greater number of more considerable persons than they are like to gratisie thereby And he gives it in as objected formerly against the Bill for Comprehension

are so greatly pleased with Dr. Jane's being chosen Prolocutor (b) p. 1. perhaps this may bring him to himself and put him into a good humour and I dare say this Doctor 's worthy Competitour was so little concerned that rather than spoil this he would give it up and let them have the comfort of believing the other chose by a great and even double Majority however false that was though it be put into the Acts of this learned Synod collected by our Authour in order I suppose to be joined with the next Edition of the Councils where may be some mistakes and some actions too as great as in this though scarce in any before the Presbyters did so bravely hold their own and stand it out against their Bishops so that I reckon the point is already gained which he blames one of the Letters for requesting That Presbytery may be restored to its ancient privilege and permitted to share in all Acts belonging to their station (c) p. 33. But I am afraid some of those Latitudinarian or Smectymnuan Presbyters that are still among us but are not of us (d) p. 34. have not so much respect and reverence for their Bishops as they ought to have I forbear says our Authour to call Names (a) Ibid. after he had used the most invidious ones he could think of and I suppose we had had Janites and Tillotsonians but that the one sounded very little and pitifully and the other would make up as terrible a word almost as that of Latitudinarians but to oblige him for ever and to make him amends for all that is in this Paper let the immortal name of Longitudinarians hereafter belong to them for about twenty reasons more than can be given for the other I mean to those who are for no Alterations or Abatements for the sake of Peace and Reconciliation I own this is a matter of Prudence and the good or evil of it depends upon circumstances so that wise and good men may have different apprehensions about it and may not be all of the same mind but our Author's Reasons do no way satisfie me that this is not fit to be done nor does he answer to my thinking what others have offered for it I intend to argue the Point plainly and briefly with him and then to prevent all Heretical pravity of a long name Omnia Ecclesiae Judicio submitto First then Those wise men out of the West his Neighbours in the Countrey p. 2. think it very reasonable that such as are aggrieved should make their application to the Convocation and do they think this will doe why really yes being in good humour themselves and the Convocation being so too which is always to be supposed our Author doubts not that such of the Dissenters as will be satisfied with what in reason and conscience may be granted that they would be gratified and a good agreement made for all agree according to our Subscriptions that such Ceremonies as concern Discipline and Order may upon just causes be altered and changed as good natured as can be surely then 't is but meer Complement whether the Dissenters should first ask or the Church give without asking and to me now it looks better and more for the Churches honour and authority that That should give terms to the Dissenters rather than the Dissenters give or propose terms to the Church Our Author too is much of the same mind in this and I believe I shall shew him that he is more of my mind in most things than he knows or thinks he is for Is it necessary says he in another place that a Church which hath authority to judge for it self what is decent and orderly should subject her self to the judgment of her Members to determine for her or themselves p. ● what is decent and expedient and what is not and a little before that Is it necessary that a Parent should yield to a disobedient Child upon his own unreasonable terms No rather let the Parent wisely and by fair means bring the stubborn Child off from its disobedience if it be possible without the Childs offering terms whether reasonable or unreasonable I believe our Author and his Countrey Neighbours would not have took it so well of the King nor have been so quick and forward in addressing to him as some others were had he called an Assembly of Dissenters to treat with the Convocation and have proposed terms to it besides what if the Church be wiser than the Dissenters and can better judge what Concessions are sit for them than they themselves It seems more proper for Governours to prescribe to the governed than the contrary the Preface to the Common Prayer says It is but reasonable that on weighty and important considerations according to the exigency of times and occasions such Changes and Alterations may be made as to those that are in places of Authority should seem necessary or expedient This our Author quotes too on this head but does not mind it as he ought If he considers it a little better he will plainly discern that the Church thinks it reasonable to make Alterations sometimes as she thinks sit whether the Dissenters propose or agree in them or not and 't is well if the whole of this doe not seem to him a kind of Latitudinarian Principle crept into the Church which ought to be altered though nothing else But 2. They think it reasonable that the end should be considered before the means be resolved on This is very sage and grave and becoming their Countrey wisedom which does nothing in vain never brews Ale without somebody to drink it nor never sets a Hen but to breed Chickens according to that Logical Axiom which they ha'n't quite forgot Finis primum in Intellectu I suppose they mean here what they tell us in other places to what purpose will it be to make Alterations for the sake of Dissenters when it will signifie nothing Cui bono to take the strength of it in a drachm of Latin p. 5. to what end should any Alterations be made when they themselves have so plainly declared that they will not be satisfied for they were not so by the 600 Alterations in 1661 nor by the Proposals of D. Stilling-sleet and Mr. Baxter and the Healing Attempt propose strange things so that Is it necessary we should part with any thing to them whom we have reason to suspect that they will not leave craving till they have all And We think we have a moral assurance that whatever Concessions the Convocation shall make with safety to themselves will not only be despised but cast back as filth in our faces not only with a Quis Requisivit but with a Pudet haec opprobria vobis p. 2. as if our manner of publick Worship were so corrupt that we were ashamed of it and were convinced of a necessity to purge it Here I have pickt up and gathered