and which he hath set downe in malitious Articles and interrogatories shall be answered neither doe I meane therein to omit any speach that shall seeme any way pertinent to purpose being loth he should say he was not answered Wherein if you see no colour or shew of reason for this newfound platformes or proofe of his accusation consider then I pray you first what indignitie hath ben offered by this libellor to the Church of God to her Maiestie and her lawes to the Ecclesiasticall state and such as liue in obedience of lawes and secondly what they deserue that haue offered this indignitie vnto so many and honorable persons and brought this scandale into the Church of God the common 1 Rescius iâ— ministromach aduersarie maketh profite of those shameles slaunders which those vnciuil and vnlettered authors of the Admonition haue vttered against the Church the aduersarie triumpheth to see this contention disordered companions take occasion of contumacie and rebellion when will the gouernors vse like diligence to represse them If then you loue religion her Maiestie and the state you will not suffer such notorious reuellors at lawes and gouernors if you be desirous of trueth you will no more be abused with vaine gloses H. Nicholas hath painted his booke with quotations as full as T.C. he vseth the same stile and seemeth to haue the same erronious spirit He saith as well as T.C. that for Sions sake 2 In euangel regni he will not holde his peace and yet nether of both speaketh to purpose nor to the edifying but rather the pulling downe of Gods Church and therefore seing both the authors and their dealings haue bene tried let them be both dealt with all and esteemed according to their deserts It may be these felowes looked for answere of her Maiestie and to say sooth the Magistrate were most fitte to shape aunsweres for such disordered petitions but in the meane while it may please them to accept of my answere they are no such high persons but meaner men then her Maiestie may answere them reason it is seing they put their petition in print they should also receiue a printed answere and seing they chalenge me they should heare my answere And let them not thinke but that howsoeuer their malice is repressed by lawe their fond assertions and cauils shal be refuted by reason That trueth may appeare I haue done my endeuour God is my witnesse I seeke for nothing but trueth and peace there rosteth then nothing but that trueth be embraced and lawe maintained for little auaileth it to knowe either if by faction mutinie lawes may be broken trueth oppressed to make trueth and Iustice knowen it belonged to vs to defend the same belongeth to Magistrates to wish the same to all reade therefore and iudge and seeke the maintenance of Iustice and trueth without which neither Church nor state can be well gouerned AN ANSWERE TO A CERtaine calumnious Petition and also to certaine Articles and Questions of the Consistorian faction CAP. I. Wherein is declared that the authoritie and state of Bishops as it is vsed in England is lawfull and the Petitioners cauils brought to the contrary answered ALmightie God when he gaue Magistrates and Lawes vnto his Church appoynted first and next vnder the soueraigne Magistrate one high Priest to haue the 1 Deut. 17. leuit 13. exod 28. nom 3. 4. superintendence of the affaires of the church and vnder him 2 1. Chron. 24. 25. diuers heads of their diuisions that things might be done in order And lest wee might suppose that this was but a ceremoniall constitution vnder the Law of nature the chieftie of the Priesthoode ouer all his was first in Noe then in Sem then in Abraham then in Isac and Iacob afterward in the 12 Patriarkes which for many yeres gouerned their whole families both in matters diuine and humane If equalitie of ministers had bene so profitable no doubt God would haue vsed that order in his Church The Lawe ceremoniall ceasing our Sauiour ruled his Church as soueraigne Bishop of our soules he adioyned no fellowe aldermen to himselfe Departing this worlde he gaue commission to his disciples within those places where they remayned to gouerne the church So we reade that they did excommunicate alone that they did ordeine ministers alone yea and did by superiour authoritie order both the affayres and goods of the church Paul did excommunicate 3 1. Timoth. 1. Alexander and Hymenaeus Peter as Beza confesseth by the swoorde of excommunication strooke Ananias and Saphyra alone Beza aduers Erast Paul ordeined Timothy and Titus and Timothy and Titus ordeined other ministers The Apostle Paul prescribeth orders and lawes to Timothy and Titus and their churches the populer gouernement which our platformers commend was not so much as in time of persecution vsed This was the practise of the Apostles successors likewise Saint Iohn writeth to the bishop of Ephesus to the bishop of Smyrna and likewise to the seuerall Bishoppes of other Churches to them hee giueth directions them he reprehendeth for bearing with the wicked which if they had had no authoritie aboue other Ministers had bene very vnfitting All Ecclesiasticall stories writing of that argument giue witnesse that seuerall Bishops succeeded the Apostles at Rome Constantinople Alexandria Ierusalem Antioche other famous Churches Saint Ierome and diuers other ancient writers testifie that Marke ruled Alexandria as Bishop which happened in Saint Iohns time All counsels giue preheminence to Bishops ouer other Ministers and to the counsels the fathers subscribe by infinite testimonies whereof it may appeare that excommunication ordination and the gouernement of the Church next vnder the prince did belong to Bishops the wordes I haue set downe heretofore in my English booke written against this counterfeite newe discipline Saint Ierome hath a most pregnant place for excommunication Ieronym aduers vigilant where hee wondereth that no one Bishop could bee found to excommunicate Vigilantius and if all the gouernement of the Church was committed to Bishops no doubt but that they disposed of these matters also When in our times religion began to be reformed the chiefe learned men that then liued and tooke paines therein In histor Apologia confess August protested in their publike writinges to the entent that all posteritie should knowe it that if Bishops would embrace religion they would most willingly submit themselues to their episcopall iurisdiction accompting in most godly and expedient for the Church Melancthon vseth many speeches to that purpose fearing that if the authoritie of bishops were reiected a greater tyranny would succede and Caluine likewise to Sadolete protesteth that he misliketh not Episcopal authoritie Neither can any thing bee deuised more absurd then that equalitie of ministers which is brought in to ouerthrow Bishoppes for no gouernement can be without superioritie neither can any thing bee well ordered where there is no speciall care in some one it
is against all lawe all practise yea against all reason Therefore euen the malcontent disciplinarians that take away the name giue notwithstanding the authoritie of Bishops to their rulers of Synodes in whome if the same were as they say vnlawfull no reason it should bee continued any little time And further vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denying superioritie to Bishops ouer ministers they doe notwithstanding giue an vnbrideled and absolute authoritie to the Consistories These arguments and others which I haue set downe stand vnanswered that which is sayd against bishops may be most easily and hath often bene answered neither doth this vnlettered fellow bring either new arguments or confirme the olde nay he leaueth all arguments which his fellowes haue brought out of scriptures therein shewing good iudgement for in deede it is absurd to thinke that bishops may be ouerthrowen by scriptures vpon which their authoritie is built I wonder with what face after so many proofes brought in this cause hee durst goe about without arguments to ouerthrowe that which hath such grounde vpon scriptures lawes reasons onely for a shewe he hath brought a number of names of * Pag. 10. 11. counsels fathers Churches and late writers but when the matter shall come to triall it shall be found that they doe all forsake him in this cause and that both they and infinite more then these speake against him I answere therefore first generally that it is no good argument that in this cause is drawen from Daneau Tauergues Perot Chauneton Carpentier or other of their faction Secondly that these counsels and fathers and Churches and learned men which he quoteth haue not oppugned Bishops or their gouernement The canons of the Apostles are placed in forefront of this aray against Bishops Can. 6. c. 80. not that they speake against thē but for that it pleaseth the petitioner to make some shewe in the entrance of his matter of apostolicall authoritie in the sixt Canon there is no mention made of Episcopall iurisdiction so that it may appeare that he looked not on the place It may be he meant the seuenth Canon for there both Bishops Priestes and Deacons are forbidden to meddle with worldly affaires and in the 80 Canon Bishops Priestes are charged not to intrude themselues into publike charges But neither place maketh one word against the superioritie of Bishops ouer Ministers nor their authoritie in ordination excommunication and other Ecclesiastical matters for which they are alledged nay contrariwise they giue ordination 1 Can. 2. 36 of Ministers to Bishops and plainely distinguish 2 c. 1. 2. 40. Bishops and priestes giuing to Bishops both superioritie ouer priests and also the 3 c. 40. 41. disposing of the affaires of the Church that Bishops in the primitiue Church were excluded from ciuil charges the reason was for that the Emperors were yet heathen and therefore without danger of impietie none could deale in office vnder them and in those times the offices about collection of the Emperors rentes were 4 ff de decurionib burdensome and dishonorable and therefore no maruaile if Bishops might not beare them last of all they were subiect to accomptes yet howsoeuer it was the Canons forbid not Bishops to susteine a charge imposed vpon them but ambitiously to seeke such charges generally seculer matters were not forbidden Bishops as may appeare in the same Canons 5 c. 41. so that neither doe these places make against our bishops vnder Christian princes in common wealthes wherein they are subiectes as wel as others and by their authoritie helpe their calling yea and the whole ministerie vnder them and no way hurt it neither doe they fit the petitionners purpose For Bishops by their episcopall office doe claime no ciuil authoritie nor doeth it folowe because Bishops may not beare certeine ciuil offices that therefore they are not to exercise episcopall authoritie as the petitionner doeth insinuate Next to the Apostles Canons as they are called hee citeth the 6 counsell of Carthage 19. c. but there do not appeare any Canons to haue beene made in that counsell so wide is the man from his marke commonly his fellowes vse to alledge the 4 counsell and 18 and 19 Canon yet doe not these canons fit their turne for nothing is there spoken against the office of Bishops either in ordination or contentious iurisdiction onely Bishoppes are forbidden to take on them the execution of testaments which notwithstanding hath 1 Concil Chalced. c. 3. exceptions and to bee common quarrellers in lawe which no man thinketh conuenient neyther canon maketh any thing to the purpose were not this man without discretion he would neuer alledge this counsell against Bishops that so 2 c. 3.27 31.55.68 diuersly confirmeth the authoritie of them and condemneth such 3 c. 57 67. libellers and raylors as the authors of this petition Neyther doth the counsell of Chalcedon decree any thing against the state of Bishoppes the Canons alledged onely forbid them as the puritane Ministers whereof some are grasiers some fermers some malsters doe vse to doe to hire grounds which payd rent and tribute to the Emperor or to deale in ciuil affaires or warfare least therby they should neglect their ministerie a pregnant place against diuers of these counterfeit hypocrites that shaking of their Ministerie and disdeining the base accompt of it trade in vsurie marchandise fermes and other such like occupations giuing ouer themselues to serue mammon This counsel maketh nothing for the cause of Puritans for it establisheth the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops and condemneth such malitious and factious persons as they are that by 1 c. 17. calumnious accusations conspire the hurt or disgrace of their bishops The Petitioner doth also alledge the 6 counsell of Constantinople yet doe we not in the bookes of counsels finde any of that number nor in any counsell holden at Constantinople any thing against the authoritie or dignitie of bishops it may be he mistooke the 6 counsell of Constantinople for the 6 synode yet doeth not that speake against bishops but rather enacteth diuers 2 Synod 6. ca. 9. 10. cannons against vsurie a practise which Th. Cartw. and W. Ch. and others might doe well not to vse and for the dignitie of bishops many 3 Synod 6. c. 31. 36. 37. places To let vs further vnderstand his ignorance hee quoteth the 3 counsell of Turon whereas there were neuer but two there in neither of them any word sounding against the authoritie of bishops perhaps he meant by names of coūsels to face downe simple men or thinketh it no sinne for the glory of the consistorie to lye I beseech him to shewe vs where this 3 counsel of Turon may be found and then he shall haue further answere Beside the new third counsel of Turon he hath deuised a new counsell also of Macra which course if he hold on I
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
haue good cause to speake Bernarde 4 De consid ad Eugen. lib. 2. speaketh against the Pope for clayming soueraintie in both swordes which no bishop in England claymeth neither doth any bishop by his episcopall authoritie exercise the materiall swordes as the Pope doeth and therefore as Bernards reasons are good against the Pope so are they not to be vsed against our bishops neither was it euer Bernards meaning to condemne the prerogatiue of bishops allowing the same in so many of his epistles and writings and commending so highly the bishop of Rome notwithstanding his infinite abuses he 5 Serm. 66. in Cantic non est mirum si ordinibus ecclesie deirahunt si mandatis non obediunt bitterly inueigheth against those heretickes which for their apish imitation of the Apostles called themselues Apostolickes because they condemned prelacy and therefore calleth them Stultissimos obstinatissimos Thus the man or at least his partakers haue sought euery corner of the Fathers and yet finde nothing against the prerogatiue of bishops therfore is hee glad to flye to the practise of late churches late writers but the conclusion which he draweth from them is most weake for admit that in Geneua in France Flaunders and other churches they haue not bishops of such quality in all respects as wee haue no more haue other churches such Elders as they of Geneua haue it is sufficient that we haue such bishops as in time past they had at Ierusalem Constantinople Alexandria Antioch Carthage Seuil throughout the world before that the cornercreeping Aldermē crept out of the slime of fond mens inuention that the bishops in reformed churches of Almayne haue episcopal authoritie ouer other ministers in ordination of ministers correction of maners so that they are to be blamed that digresse from all antiquitie yea and later churches not we that agree with al former times and the Almayns for both they the Danes albeit some of them mislike the names and most of them haue taken away the liuings of bishops yet reteine still their authoritie and office in their superintendents generall superintendēts and had done better if also they had reteined the liuings rewards of learning stipends of ministers wherefore let the libeller cease to obiect vnto vs the Heluetian and Dutch and Danish churches for they differ farther from the Geneuians then from vs and the petitioner himselfe 1 Pag. 10. confesseth that they haue authoritie though not so much Of late writers I know none of name that hath condemned our bishops euen the chiefe authors of this innouatiō Caluin and Beza as may appeare by their letters which are to be shewen speake euery where honourably of them Zanchus greatly extolleth that order onely Beza as some say hath written a foolish 2 Entituled The iudgement of a learned man beyond the sea pelting discourse wherein he would proue our bishops to proceed of men as if himselfe were a bishoppe of God and Daneau in that poynt consenteth with him taking himselfe also to be a bishoppe of God and yet the Geneuians when through weakenesse of body sicknesse and age hee coulde not execute the ministerie shut this bishop of God from his liuing and forced him through want to depart out of their Citie Bullinger and Gualter and diuerse learned men of Suitzerland and Germanie haue by letters and writings allowed our bishops yea 1 Histori confess August Melancthon Camerarius Sturmius wished to God they had such in their Countreys neyther did any of these that are named by the libeller euer speake against other then papisticall bishops let the worlde then iudge what honestie or shame was in this companion that alledgeth Luther Melancthon Bucer Caluin Beza Bullinger Zanchus Erastus Gualter and Mounster against our bishops whereof some neuer spake of them others neuer spake of them but with reuerence and none against them and 2 In diuers of his letters to be shewed Beza complaineth of some that drewe his wordes vttered against popish bishops against our bishops If therefore the libeller do not bring forth some other places then these hee hath quoted there is no cause but that euery man shoulde take him for a forger of false writings and an abuser of his reader But suppose Beza or Daneau or some other of that sort shoulde write their pleasures in priuate letters or in their imperious paltrie pamphlets who would not be ashamed to oppose these two or all their headie followers to Ignatius Dionysius Chrysostome Augustine Ambrose Hierome and all antiquitie yea to most writers of late times And if these men that patronise the consistorie which cannot stand with bishops for in deede there is no agreement in gouernement betwixt the rusticall fauni and the muses betweene learned men and men of occupation betweene clownes and schollers if these I say doe not speake against bishops wee may not thinke that bishop Iewell orbishop Elmar or bishop Bollingham or others that haue written in defence of the state haue vttered any thing that soundeth to their disgrace 1 In his Apologie Bishop Iewell expressely defendeth the degree of bishops aboue priestes and good reason for it is the publike doctrine of this Church and those that goe against it make this Church to reuoke a part of their publike confession and doe more harme by their secret trechery then euer did Harding by his open enmitie neyther can there be a greater scandale or dishonour offred to religion or the state then that we should now alter the publike confession of faith made by our Church Iewell saith that the office of prince and bishop is distinct and no man denieth it for no man by the office of bishop challengeth as doth the pope soueraigntie of both swords but if any conclude because bishops ciuil officers are distinct that a bishop shal doe no ciuil office he wil conclude that hee may not looke to his house nor do the office of a subiect nor fight for his country which is a nice point of puritanisme and little better then trechery and by the same reason should ministers be excluded both from gouernement of colledges and hospitals and al offices in the vniuersities whereto our puritanes ambitiously aspire are as great canuasers as any notwithstanding their ministerie or puritanisme Neither can master Nowels words be stretched against bishops for what if Christ would not receiue riches or dominion of the deuil may not a minister receiue a benefit of a Prince or because Christ forbade them to rule as Princes may they do no offices of good subiectes but liue like traitors or like puritanes that liue in open contēpt of lawes if then the petitioner had any conscience he would not alledge Mr. Nowel against bishops whose authority he mainteineth against Dorman and whose resolution for this present gouernement is sufficiently knowen Master Bilson distinguisheth betwixt apostolicall gouernement and princely gouernment but hee
with gaine and other vanities are polluted whose ignorance maketh them vncapable of ecclesiastical function Those elders which Ambrose speaketh of assisted the bishop with coūsell these are not counsellers but controllers gouerners with voyces equall to the bishop His elders were in cathedrall churches onely these are in euery 3 So our platformers would haue it albeit the Geneuians practise be farre diuers paltry village Those were men learned these are ignorant marchants artificers and clownes for the most part Nothing can be more repugnant thē Ambrose and the Disciplinarians Ambrose 4 Lib. 8. cp 64. sheweth that excommunication belonged to bishops these put the keyes into the hands of strange elders yet very yong in Gods church good for nothing but to oppresse the ministerie and learning such elders as Ambrose speaketh of were deriued from the Iewes but such Aldermen as these haue deuised the Iewes had none Ambrose his elders were not temporary nor all of counsell these are Ambrose complayneth that the Bishop and his Clerkes did not liue in common as in time 5 Inter Can. Syluestri past yet such was the griedinesse of bishops that it was necessary to diuide the church goods and such was the negligence of priests that they were sent out of cities to dwell in the countrey which now is obserued and that which Ambrose complayned of restored viz. that certaine of the chiefe of the ministery should be assistant to the bishop what then would these fellowes haue more would they haue all the ministers of a diocesse to liue in one citie and to ioyne in hearing of all matters This would be a beginning of singular non residence cause of great trouble cōfusion not a meanes to do iustice but to hinder iustice After Ambrose succeedeth Hierome a mā most vnfit to speak for the new eldership for if that be true which he saith that bishops elders in the primitiue church were all one then away goe the aldermen that are no bishops which reason did so sticke to Bezaes fingers 1 De presbyter aduers Erast Epist ad Heliod disputing against Erastus for the eldership that hee could no way lay it downe handsomely without the ruine of his cause Againe if in Hieroms time all Clerkes did feede with the worde much more did priests Neither doeth it make for these mens cause that he saith that as the Iewes so the Christians had a Counsell in euery cathedrall church for that is his meaning for that was of ministers and is obserued in our cathedrall churches and vtterly ouerthroweth the presumption of these vnlearned aldermen that with vnwashen feete tread in the sanctuary with filthy hands leaden heads handle matters of religiō faith churchgouernment wtout colour or title taking the keyes out of the successors of the apostles hands Possidonius 2 In vit August Socrates albeit they are said to speake of the consistorie and that plainely 3 Lib. 5. cap. 21. yet cleerely ouerthrowe the same for neither of them euer vnderstoode or heard of any temporary lay elders such as are lately raised from the dunghill to the highest tribunall of the church Nor do they speake of others then such as liued in cōmunity with the bishops in their cathedrall churches such as we haue in our church of which also the canon 4 Dist 95. c. ecce 15. q. 7. si quid law maketh mētion declaring their office to consist in preaching administring the sacraments so that I cannot but wonder with what visage that libeller could alleadge the colledges of ministers of the worde assistant to bishops in their Cathedrall churches to proue Elderships in euery village assistant to euery minister and consisting of prophane and vnlearned men and neither hauing salary nor salt of discretion nor continuance as the other had Of these allegations therefore this conclusion may bee drawen out that in counsels Fathers and antiquitie there is not any argument or coniecture found of all that Discipline which these newfangled platformers desire Nay there is not any proofe for the same in the new writers onely I except the Geneuians and their followers that haue shamefully applyed scriptures to their Disciplinarian dreames The churches of Saxony Wittenberg Nuremberg Strausborgh Ausburg Frankeforde Hamborgh and other places of Germany the county Palatine except likewise the churches of Zuricke Berne Basill other true christian churches in Zuitzerland Denmarke Sueueland Pomerany Poland and Hungary and all the learned men that gouerned those churches both in their doctrine and practise are against the discipline of the new Consistories Moreouer those that speake for the Consistories are not all of one opinion In the state of Geneua there is but one cōsistory there are not many that agree about the proofe parts office or lawes of it In Geneua they doe not allow their consistory power to make or disanull lawes In Fraunce they giue that power to synodes The consistoriall discipline in France was at first receiued of a fewe and that not for euidence of Scripture or proofe or reason but by suffrages of the Nobilitie and Gentry whereof some too well liked the sacrilegious doctrine and by the earnest labour of Beza desirous to conforme other churches to that of Geneua most of the learned ministers dissenting from him and disallowing his absurde discipline and not yeelding before the Princes to whome they serued constrayned them What reason then hath any to pleade for the consistoriall gouernment which is vnknowen to all antiquite and repugnant to Apostolicall practise and the most florishing Churches in Europe and was receiued with grudge of learned men and onely resteth vpon the conceite of Caluin Beza Daneau and some halfe score of blind writers as Iohn Baptista that ignorant Italian and Sneccan and Bertrand de Loques and Oleuian and Robert Stephen a better Printer then diuine and Perot and de Plurre and I knowe not whom neither of marke nor qualitie especially seeing so many pregnant reasons are brought against the translation of it from the Iewes and establishment of it among Christians as none haue answered and this libeller thinketh it most wisedome to passe ouer with silence If this be a good argument that Daneau Bertrand de Loques Bastingius Iunius Piscator Oleuian Caluin Beza Sneccan and Iohn Baptista d'Aureli thinke so how good will this reason be that all the fathers of all ages haue bene of a contrary iudgement and diuers godly Martyrs and learned men in our Church and other reformed Churches in Germany Zuitzerland Denmarke induced with better reasons haue thought otherwise Besides all this it shall appeare that those authors which the libeller alledgeth neuer beleeued that eyther in time past there was a consistorie of partie coluored Aldermen like to that this libeller desireth or that such a one now ought to be placed in euery Church That Zuinglius shoul de teach or beleeue that Christ did institute such Aldermen
in his Church as these doe fancie I can no where find Neyther is it likely that he should teach that abroad which hee neuer deliuered to his owne Citizens at home Aretius 1 In 1. Cor. 12 speaketh of certaine elders in his Commentaries but whatsoeuer they were hee thinketh that they ought to haue no vse vnder the Christian Magistrate And therefore by this testimonie these fellowes cānot win any vantage That they were not like the disciplinarian Aldermen it may appeare for that during the times of persecution they supplied the magistrates office and dealt in all causes of the first Christians as hee thinketh Of such elders as Aretius speaketh of it may be that Illyricus had some such like conceit But farre were they both from the opinion of them of Geneua concerning their lordly consistorie that climeth vp aboue princes Out of 1 In 1. Cor. 12. Hemingius there cannot any such fancie bee gathered as this of my yong masters the Church aldermen writing vpon the 1. Corinth 12. hee doeth interprete the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordinances of ecclesiasticall discipline which amounteth nothing to the account of these fellowes yea hee alloweth the 2 Syntagm Heming prerogatiue and authoritie of Bishops aboue other ministers which can beare no sway among these lordly commanders The place of 3 In 1. Cor. 12. Hyperius maketh not to purpose for albeit he be produced by the libeller as a witnesse for the eldership yet doth hee testifie against it for hee saith not that any such aldermen as these conceyue were ioyned with the Bishop in gouernement and equall authoritie but that Bishops vsed the aduise of ancient and graue men not these rough hewen aldermen that are neyther wise nor graue but rather grieuous to Gods Church But most of all doe I wonder what reason the libeller had to cite 4 De reformand abusib ad Imperatorem Bucer who in the place quoted doth not so much as mention any elders much lesse teach their office qualitie and continuance but contrariwise hee sheweth that if there were no other difference betwixt the Papists and him hee would easily yeelde to bishops their titles and dignities and wisheth that Metropolitanes and other bishops woulde returne to the obseruance of ancient Canons And so farre was Bullinger from fauoring any such new packe of aldermen as these woulde haue that hee 5 In libr. erast de excom in fine yeelded his approbation to the opinion of Erastus that denied both the presbytery and presbyteriall censures Zegedin another of this mans witnesses doth say much against him concerning the 6 Loc. Com. pag. 202. superioritie of bishops and newe deuice of doctors and other poynts But where hee speaketh any one worde for the consistorial gouernours the place cannot yet be found what should I stand long in tracing out the notorious falsehood of this forger of false quotations in euery paticuler By these already examined you may vnderstand how honestly hee dealeth in the rest and by this also that it is knowen that the Churches of 1 Onely in the Palsgraues dition they say there is some haunt of the eldership to be found Germanie Denmarke and Zuitzerland doe all repell the eldership yea when certaine factious companions comming from Geneua would haue made some stirre in the ecclesiasticall gouernement at Zuricke Gualter resisted them and the magistrates sent them out of their citie to place their consistories in some other quarter in remotis Likewise doth he report vntrueth concerning M. Nowel M. Fulke and M. Whytaker M. Nowell speaketh some what concerning elders but that he meant the tēporary aldermen that sprung vp first at Geneua and now vse to come from the marchants stall and workehouse into the Church to order matters of faith and doctrine it cannot be surmised Neither hath the libeller any reason to build his fancies vpon M. Fulkes opinions for in the confutation of the notes of the Rhemish Testament he doth defend the gouernement of the Church of England as now it is albeit he was somtime of other mind yet did he afterward retract his former sayings And when Iohn Field contrary to his mind did publish the pamphlet called the learned discourse hee was offended with him and if he had liued would haue confuted the same himselfe Neither do I beleeue that M. Raynolds being so well conuersant in counsels and fathers doth admit an eldership contrary to the sayings and practise of both M. Whitaker is a man of too great iudgement to beleeue the vnlettered improbable deuise of the consistorie And well is it kowen that hee hath taught both publikely and priuately against it Neyther is it likely that hee hath nowe greater reasons to moue him since he maried in the tribe of those that fauour these conceites then before so that when al is come to all the authors of this discipline are 20 or 30 foreine authors and halfe a score English perfumed with the smoke of Geneua and wel read in Caluins Institutions And the grounds of it are not scripture nor antiquitie nor reason but conceyte and foolish fancie and the authoritie of such as deserue no credite speaking in their owne cause If the libeller thinke otherwise let him or else because hee is but a man of a weake brayne and small learning let any of the faction drawfoorth Caluins and Bezaes reasons nay let either Beza himselfe or any of them answere that which hath bene set forth against their opinions already and confirme Caluins and Bezaes weake and euill shapen reasons and then will the vanitie of all the newe platforme and also of these allegations appeare To prooue the continuance of the gouernement by Elders he falsifieth also diuers authors as Zuinglius Oecolampadius Capito Melancthon Bullinger and maketh lyes vpon Fulke and Reynoldes for I thinke master Raynoldes holdeth no such fancy And I am assured that Fulke retracted his opinion so that his onelie reason also for the continuance of the Eldership is because Miconius Micronius and Caluin Beza Daneau and Calueton Colladon Tauergues Perot Iacomot Duple Golart Pollan Perille Henry others neuer heard of in this horisō beleeue the continuance of the consistorial gouernment that we must renounce scriptures fathers and al antiquity which is neither a good nor learned kind of reasoning yet for any thing I can see it is not onely the best but also the onely reason he vseth deny the new fācies that they haue deuised embraced at Geneua you marre the frame of their consistory why wee should credit them against scriptures fathers stories there can be alledged no cause Much lesse is there reason we should beleeue Peter Carpenter a knowen Apostata from religion or Bodin a man better conuersant in pollicy then in diuinity and whose religion was al poperie yet if we should I do not finde any thing in eyther that soundeth to the honor of the Aldermens cause For 1 Aduers Fr.
haue more benefices then two with cure if they haue all but those they can keepe doe fall voyde lastly all this which hee draweth out of the Canons is to no purpose for they haue no strength of lawe Article 63 The bishops say that excommunication is a ciuill discommuning and company with excommunicate persons and if our Prelates were examined then were they excommunicate and worse then publicanes and heathen Answere Marke I pray you the intemperate furie of this base companion the honourable Prelates of this land reuerend for their learning yeeres grauitie place this crablouse swaine and paltrie parasite scornefully calleth iolly prelates and in changing scorne into rayling calleth them excommunicate persons yea worse then publicanes and heathen into such a streine of madnes is he entred looke Allen Stapleton other traytors discourses yet shall you find no such scornefull nor spitefull speaches and wherefore doth hee so reuile them forsooth because he supposeth they offend against canons yet neyther doth he prooue any fault nor can he shew that those canons are lawe nor can hee excuse his consorts that notoriously contemne all excommunications nor finally can hee disproue the common distinction of excommunication that one sort is ecclesiasticall the other ciuill and therefore as a furious for rayling without learning or wit against men of so high place hee is rather to bee corrected in Bedlem then refuted with long discourse I doubt not but the consistorie it selfe will bee ashamed of such kinde of dealing and all other reasonable men condemne it why the disciplinarians should talke of excommunication there is no reason forthey commit the same into prophane mens hands and are therein worse then heathen that neuer committed such holy things into so base mens hands This is the summe of all those articles that he hath gathered against the ecclesiasticall state a playne iustification of all their doings for if he could haue said more against them he would not haue spared and charging them with matters eyther tryfling or else vtterly vntrue declareth them to bee innocent himselfe to bee malicious and furious for the summe of all is nothing but a packe of vnruly wordes as Chapplaines Priestes iolly Prelates hangbyes excommunicate persons worse then heathen and publicanes licentious preachers extortioners bribers and such like I could requite him with better and as bitter tearmes but to answere his articles I will onely returne him but these few articles following A BRIEFE COLLECTION OF DIVERS haereticall and strange opinions lewde practises and fond fancies and deuices which certaine factious and light headed persons haue lately coloured and aduanced with glorious titles of discipline and reformation set downe in forme of Articles TH. Cartw. doth call the rules of his new discipline the 1 In the Epistbefore Fenners new diuinitie Axiomes or irrefragable principles of heauenly Canaan whereby he would in sinuate that they are without doubt to be receiued and yet can he not shewe that euer the eldership or the strange gouernement thereof was practised in Canaan vnlesse it were of the Cananites and enemies of Gods Church to the rooting out of Gods people and ouerthrow of the Ministerie 2 The disciplinarians holde that the gouernement of the Eldership is Christes kingdome and that they that withstand the same are enemies to Christ to religion and to Christes kingome and apply these wordes of the Gospel 2 Th. Cartw. in a certeine table Those mine enemies that would not haue me to reigne ouer them bring them and slay them before me Aplaine euidence that if with entreatie they cannot they meane by warres and bloodshed to set vp their kingdome and yet William Hacket their first king was crowned in Cheapeside with an hempen coronet or diademe and his garde and followers dipersed 3 They teach That the Church is onely to be gouerned by Christes lawes And yet are they not able to bring forth one worde for proofe of their consistorie or the partes of it or the office of euery seueral part of it or any part of their gouernment and seeme to rest onely vpon mens bare conceites and fancies contrarie both to scriptures equitie and reason 4 They professe great loyaltie in termes yet doubt not to say that the simplest Consistorie they haue may giue the prince to Satan 5 They take from the magistrate power to make ecclesiasticall lawes for the gouernment of the Church and yet at Geneua they haue no ecclesiasticall lawes but made by the magistrates 6 That authoritie which statutes giue to princes In calling and assembling of Synodes and appointing ecclesiasticall commissioners to heare and determine Ecclesiasticall matters and appointing delegates to represse wrongs offered in Ecclesiasticall courtes they take away and deny the supremacie of the prince very presumptuously 7 They ouerthrowe her Maiesties reuennues and dissolue the office of first fruites and tenthes 8 They deny her all authoritie to nominate Bishops or other officers of the Church and vtterly take away her right of patronage in all ecclesiasticall liuings 9 They dissolue all ecclesiasticall lawes and all those statutes that concerne Bishops or other Ministers or other ecclesiastical liuings person or cause 10 They deny that her Maiestie may pardon and graunt life to any offender Fenneri Theologia whome Moses lawe commandeth to be put to death and binde her to the obseruance of Moses iudiciall lawes 11 They seeke the ruine and ouerthrowe of the whole ecclesiasticall estate by abasing the Ministers of the Church beneath all others and laying infinite burthens vpon them and taking away all rewardes of learning a point which you my masters of the vniuersitie are to looke vnto 12 By ouerthrowing of the Ecclesiasticall state they doe depriue her Maiestie of many thowsands of able and most willing men to doe her seruice and make way to inward faction and forreine inuasion and all manner of heresies and disorders 13 They teach Th Cartw. reply that all magistrates are to licke the dust of the feete of the Eldership 14 They goe about to bring in forreine lawes and forreine and vncouth gouernors 15 They teach that in euery common wealth well gouerned Fenners holy diuinitie there ought some magistrates to be appointed to depose and ouerrule princes if they doe not their dueties like the Spartain Ephori 16 They teach that the prince may not determine any weightie matter Ibidem without the assemblie of the estates 17 They depraue the ecclesiasticall gouernement Martin and religion of this Church and call it antichristian and diuelish 18 They traduce the publike iustice of this land Martin and Epist before reformat no enemie and rayle against the parliament the lordes the Iudges the lawes and whatsoeuer misliketh them 19 They haue confederated themselues together That is euident by theit subscriptions for the ouer throwing of the ecclesiasticall lawes and state and haue subscribed certeine articles for the establishment of new lawes and gouernement 20 Cartwright and
recreate my selfe with this more easie labour and to answere their cauils at our proceedings in law together with such authorities as they bring for the proofe of their consistorie to the finall discouerie of their vnbrideled malice that all seeing the nakednesse of their cause may ioyne together to extirpate the reliques of those that haue bene causers of these stirres Against this my purpose I doe vnderstand that diuers exceptions are taken First those that fauour the consistoriall discipline doe say I withstand a noble worke of reformation and therefore cannot like of my doings but vnto these this whole treatise shall make answere for thereby it shall appeare that their whole course tendeth rather to confusion and disorder of Church and state then to reformation of eyther and therefore seeing they doe declare themselues open enemies both vnto the present state and to me in this cause I doe not regard what they like or dislike no doubt but that open enemies will like that best which for the State is worst and greatly prayse that which tendeth to the hurt thereof Others there are that condemne all those discourses that are written of both sides concerning this argument which albeit they would seeme to be friendes yet in deede are enemies as well as the other For no more is he an enemie that oppugneth vs in plaine fielde then hee that trecherously seeketh to discourage such as are forwarde in mainteining the State at home and albeit they would colour their malice with pretence of detestation of contention among friendes yet doe they vs wrong to accompt them that oppugne the state friendes or attribute the cause of contention to vs that onely defend the State against contentious and malcontent persons such as would ruinate the same for not those that defend but those that begin the braule are contentious Were it not thinke you a ridiculous thing for a man to say that valiant men that fight for their countrey are contentious and a poynt of trecherie to discourage them why then should not the like bee thought of those that condemne them that write in defence of the present gouernment of religion and learning in like degree as if they had writ against the same These men are sorie that any should stop the breach against such as seeke to enter to make spoyle and therefore as secret enemies or weake persons that neither vnderstand matters of State nor reason are to be contemned if not reproued A last sort there is that percase mislike the sharpenesse of my stile but they must consider that in this discourse I deale not against men of learning or grauitie or such as desire to learne or finde out trueth but against ignorant wilfull and seditious Libellers that seeke partly by falshood and partly by disgrace of some bad persons vnworthy of their places to discredite the whole ecclesiastical state against whom no sharpenesse of stile can be sufficient but I did respect rather what became me to speake then what they deserued to heare This discourse I present to your Lordship a man well acquainted with the humors of the men and weakenesse of their cause a Iudge most skilfull in law Vnto whom should wee seeke for resolution in law and redresse of wrong rather then to him that beareth so honourable a charge in matters of Iustice vnder your name I would it should come to the handes and viewe of all other reuerend Iudges learned Lawyers and well affected subiectes Wee desire nothing more then that matters may bee examined according to iustice and doubt not but if that may be obtayned that the controuersie will bee ended and the calumnious mouthes of factious persons stopped for seeing the platformers haue neither support of trueth nor law what man will doubt but that they are to be repressed aswell by Iustice as by disputation and discourse That is the meanes to ende all our complaynts the remedie of our common griefes if the perturbers of our State at home were first calmed I would not doubt but forrein aduersaries would soone be danted and the mindes of friendes vnited to the ioy of all that loue the trueth of Gods religion and seeke the long continuance of her Maiesties peaceable reigne and the florishing state of the Church Accept therefore I beseech you my good Lord this my good will which I testifie vnto you in this Treatise Due it is to you being so forwarde and vpright in matters of Iustice and was expected at my handes being specially touched in the petition which I answere I make your Lordship and all the learned yea all indifferent men iudges Iudge therefore according to iustice and trueth There is no reason I should require fauour in this cause further then my simple skill and vnsufficient handling of matters for want of time and being oppressed with other businesse shall require fauour The Lord send peace to his Church and heape vpon you and all others that loue his trueth all heauenly graces that by your meanes enioying the benefites of true religion iustice and peace wee may consent in one trueth and ioyntly in his holy Church glorifie Christ Iesus the Prince of peace In London the 20 of December Your Lordships in all duetie and heartie affection MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE The Preface wherein both the argument of the discourse ensuing is deliuered and certaine generall faults of the petition touched I Had once well hoped that eyther the authoritie of the Magistrate could haue commanded or the terrour of the common enemie that so violently doth assayle the whole Church at this time would haue enforced the contentious to make an ende of their braules and if neither reuerence of superiors nor respect of common profit could put them to silence yet did I imagine seeing they haue nothing to say that discretion and common sense would make them to hold their peace how much my expectation was deceiued this petition which I haue here vndertaken to answere doth declare for without respect to lawes or common profite yea or common reason the author thereof hath put forth himselfe to speake a man as you shal see without reuerence to superiours or conscience in reporting of lawes or iudgementin matters diuine or humane and most vnable to speake or write in this or other argument To goe no further this his petition shall make proofe of my words for neither is there art in his stile nor witte or sharpenesse in his arguments nor is there any decencie obserued in the discourse nor doth the treatise agree with the title nor the parts thereof with themselues the stile is like Iohn Bels song of Couentrie the sentences hang together like lenten deames first he kneeleth on his knee then asketh pardon afterward telleth of all good subiects how they desire peace and yet notwithstanding he telleth of many that increase contention then he talketh of writing of bookes of generall counsels and a newe kind of disputing by writing matters that neyther haue coherence among themselues
nor dispraised for euill doing neither is there any memoriall of their doings nor recorde of their names nor note of their succession nor being in the whole scriptures Nay not so much as the Rabbines or the histories of Philo or Iosep make any mention either of their names life acts death or any thing cōcerning thē which were wondrous strange if any such extrauagant cōmanders had bene for howsoeuer it fareth with others the acts of gouernours cannot lie hidden To be short nothing can be more absurd then that such odde companions as these aldermen are shoulde controll Princes and iudge of religion being most of them without the function of priesthoode or knowledge of diuinitie or good letters The same reasons may also perswade vs that there were no such church gouernours in the Apostles times or after There appeareth first no institution of them Secondly no lawes wherby they are to gouerne Thirdly no act of theirs Fourthly no commendation or reproofe of their persons or doings Fiftly their authoritie was inuested in the Apostles by our Sauiour to whom also the keyes were giuen and not to these false aldermen that come in rather like burners of houses then gouernours of Churches with counterfeite keyes Sixtly in the whole storie of the Acts of the Apostles there is not the least suspicion of them neyther doe they stand vpon any thing but false interpretations of 3 or 4 places of scripture Nor to conclude can any thing be more vnlikely then that our Sauiour Christ Iesus the wisedome of God hauing giuen the keyes of Iurisdiction and knowledge to his Apostles and their successors would take the same from them and hang them at the elbowes of men without authoritie knowledge or discretion such as the Church Aldermen are for the most part In the times succeeding next to the Apostles all histories counsels fathers giue witnesse to the gouernement by bishops in time of persecution and after the time of persecution by bishops vnder the soueraigne direction of Christian Princes Neyther for 1540 yeeres did euer this foolish conceit come in any mens heads that merchantes men of occupation musterd sellers and tinkers were men sufficient for the gouernement of Churches Then which nothing can be deuised more absurd nor inconuenient It is the high way to all heresies for when matters be decided by voyces of men that neuer knewe Scriptures Fathers nor tongues how is it possible that they should teach trueth or continue in trueth or meete with errours this is the principall cause of the multitude of heresies in the lowe Countries The same also would be a Seminarie for schisme for when all parishes and ministers and Consistories haue equall iurisdiction as these fellowes teach that they ought to haue who shall remedie contentions that fall out the synode a mere conceite for what neede they to care for the synode or the censures thereof that by no lawe are subiect to synodes All learning would decay for who should neede to studie if a Taylor comming warme from the shopboard be a man fit to gouerne the church or who can haue any courage to studie where this sacrilegious discipline that hath made hauock of all the reuenues of the church is placed and the stipends that are allotted to learded men shall bee arbitrary and may bee taken away at the discretion of a sort of ignorant marmarchants clownes and men of occupation Fourthly where there is no lawe prescribed how can the Iudges bee kept in temper euen now notwithstanding all lawes and penalties that may be deuised partialitie fauour hatred and other affectons beare sway How much would they sway more if the Consistorie should come in place which is ruled onely by will and pluralitie of voyces and not restrayned but by pretence of God worde which euery man vseth to construe to his owne profit Downe would the princes reuenues fall and the Realme be left without meanes of defence and made vnable to resist the enemie If any man thinke that the spoile of the church should come to the princes hands he abuseth himselfe The spoyles of other places do teach vs what would fall out yea our owne experience may herein sufficiently instruct vs. For albeit in the ouerthrow of Abbeys the Prince had some share yet are not now the Princes of this land able to mainteine that force that in time past they were when great nōbers of both horsemen footmen were maintained at the charge of religious houses the reuenues whereof now are wholy imployed yet scarce able percase to buy some one meane gentlewoman a verdugal so leudly are they spent so great is the pride waste of men the reason of it is this that what they spent thē in mainteining of men the same is now spent in veluets silkes glittering coates Suppose then that the church goods should come to spoyle do you thinke they would be better spent it should seeme no for all is now spent in surfet excesse that in time past was spent in mainteining of men And I knowe where in certaine manors taken from bishops thousands of men were mainteined the reuenues of all which do not now buy peticoates for my mistres the owners wife and her maydens not a man of al their tenāts scarce able to do her Maiestie seruice at his owne charge they are so fined skinned All those that liue by learning should be turned along to picke sallets whereby Poperie hauing no resistance would finde easie entrance and those that are best able being discouraged for want of meanes make least resistance Vnto all these points the Libeller saith but litle only vpon one point he stādeth that the hot pursuers of their pretended reformation haue some inducemēts to thinke that there hath bene in the world some such consistory as he imagineth but where or when he knoweth no certaintie nay he knoweth not what maner of beast the same is His proofes they be so weake that I marueile hee was not ashamed to make muster of them scriptures he bringeth none Aworld to see how those that in oppugning our state were so copious in allegations of scriptures to mainteine their Aldermen and Discipline doe not so much as endeuour to bring any scripture or by reason drawen thence to confirme their cause The Fathers as him selfe confesseth speake obscurely his chiefe helpe is in Caluin Iunius Beza Dancau yea and such obscure compagnions as Bertrand de loques Bastinge Charpentier du Pleurre Golart Iacomot Pollan and a rable of others not worth the naming But if the consent of halfe a score base writers and of bad alloy be so forcible as to perswade the good liking of the consistorie what reason haue wee to stand in defence of our gouernment by bishops which hath the consent of so many generall counsels so many Fathers so many ages yea so many learned men also of our time as these bee and as well learned and godly as the other diuers of whose pietie hath passed
fiery tryals and bene sealed with their blood namely Bishop Cranmer bishop Ridley bishop Latimer bishop Farrar master Philpot and master Bradford and many moe martyrs that liued in good liking of our state and defended bishops whereas few of these that are alleadged condemned our Bishops and none of the ancient Fathers allowe such an Eldership as these seeke for Adde hereunto the learned men now liuing in England comparable to the best and farre exceeding these Bastinges Loquians Golarts Perots and such obscure and vnlearned and vnwise authors Who will not I say rather giue credite to such consent then to a fewe ouerweening late writers especially seeing all the Fathers ioyne with vs against them Ignatius speaketh of an eldership of ministers of the word men subiect to the Bishop conuersant in the ministration of sacraments of these aldermē that albeit they meddle neither with worde nor sacramentes and are base begotten and mishapen creatures yet take on them to depose Princes throwe out their Bishops at pleasure hee neuer heard any ynkeling nor speaketh one worde of them To his Eldership 1 Epist ad Trallen Magnes Ignatius maketh the Bishop superiour these giue to the Consist orie power to depose the Minister yea and accordingly we vnderstand that in Fraunce they haue thrust out many poore men which either haue perished for want or lāguished for pouertie and all because they were so sencelesse as not to vnderstand that Clownes are euil Iudges of the merites of learned men and accorde not with schollers nor schooles They alledge also 1 Apol. c. 39. libr. de baptism Tertullian to the same purpose but his words fit not their turne for he talketh of elders that managed the word and fed with doctrine and meaneth a synode of bishops or assembly of the ministers of the worde for those are called presidents and such presidents as dealt with the administration of sacraments Of these new aldermen which starting from their occupations and stalles runne rashly into church gouernment in Tertullians time there was no newes heard That the Elders he talketh of were ministers of the worde administred the sacramēts of baptisme is apparant in his booke of baptisme so that alleadging that booke the Libeller doeth nothing but turne the poynt of Tertullian against his motley 2 Tertul. de baptis de coron milit and party-natured aldermen For in in him the worde Presbyteri signifieth alwayes ministers of the word subiect to the bishop neuer any men of trade or occupation vsurping Church-gouernment and chalenging equall power with bishops as in the places aboue mentioned is euident The places of Cyprian make no more for his purpose then those before alledged out of Tertullian Ignatius In the 5 epistle of his second booke he declareth how he and his Collegues had ordained Aurelius a reader but that by Collegues is meant bishops is apparant for that bishops did onely ordeine Secondly for that priests were not Collegues to bishops but subiect to them Thirdly for that priests of one church had not to do in another but bishops had Fourthly because hee neuer heard of nor knewe any temporary prophane churchaldermen which were not ministers of the worde and sacraments Lastly for that he writeth to the elders supposed to be aldermen of the new creation not to ioyne with him but to declare what he had done he would haue done otherwise if priests had bene his Collegues In another place he saith he purposeth to doe nothing without the counsell of his Cleargie and consent of his people but that maketh nothing for the consistorie for in all lawes with vs the consent of the people is adioyned yet haue we no aldermen 〈…〉 the Consistorie doeth things without consent of the people albeit the same consisteth of aldermen And Cyprian albeit he would not then do yet sometimes did and might doe things by his owne authoritie Thirdly it is one thing to haue the counsell of men another to be ioyned in commisson with them for the Prince hath a counsel but no ioynt nor equall gouernours Lastly these elders were ministers of the worde such as residing now in Cathedrall churches were then liuing in cities about bishops Vnto the wordes of Cyprian in his 18 and 22 epistle of his third booke we will then yeelde answere when we finde any of that nomber for there are but 15 epistles in that boooke But this is an ordinary fault of this fellow to quote counsels bookes orations and epistles that neuer were in the world He alledgeth also the 5 9 epistle of Cyprians fourth book but in the 5 there is nothing but the name of Elder without the thing in the 9 there is neither the name nor any note of the supposed elders but contrariwise diuers reasons to shew the gouernment of the church to haue ben alwayes committed to the bishop and the vnion of the same to bee placed in consent of bishops not in supposed consistories That Cyprian knew no elders but ministers of the word these reasons do declare First for that not onely Deacons which were vnder elders but Readers also did deale in the worde and were accompted among the cleargie which was not communicated to men of occupation Secondly for that such elders as hee speaketh of dealt in sacraments and in the word for he 1 Lib. 3. cp 10. reprehendeth certaine for administring the sacraments to certaine that had not declared sufficient signes of repentance Thirdly for that they had 2 Vt sportulis iisdem cum presbyteris honorentur lib. 4. epist 5. wages fourthly for that they were not deposed at pleasure nor were temporary which is a qualitie incident to the newfoundland aldermen Augustine neuer so much as dreamt of Lay or temporary 3 De verb. Domini in Mat. ser 19. or occupacion aldermen nay himselfe diligently obserueth the distinction of the ministers of the word conuersant about the word and sacraments into bishops Priests Deacons 1 De cor grat cap. 11. He calleth the censures of the Church 2 Lib. de paenit medic cap. 2. 3. Episcopale iudicium and affirment that the keyes were to be vsed by Prelats which can no way be drawen to be vnderstoode of Lay aldermen This being considered the libeller saith his Aldermen are in these authors mentioned but obscurely but he had said farre more truely if he had said neither obscurely nor in any sort for darkenesse is not more obscure then the steps of these surmised fellowes and nothing more cleare then that they are not there To illustrate the former Fathers obscuritie he bringeth others which as he supposeth speake clearely The first is Ambrose but nothing doth hee speake to the Libellers content For he speaketh of a counsell of Elders that were ministers of the word and assistant to the bishop whom hee also calleth vicarios Dei antistites which cannot be vnderstood of these base and vnlettered aldermen whose hands
portum Carpenter the matter is euident for he most bitterly inueigheth against them of Geneua and not very doubtful in 1 Bodini methodus historiae c. 6. Bodin For the wordes alleadged out of Bodin his methode of histories concerne the Aldermen nothing He speaketh of the censure of Bishops and did neuer imagine nor could conceiue that the censures of the Church were put in the hands of prophane men Illa pontificum censura saith he nihil maius aut diuinius cogitari potuit Secondly he doeth not commend the men he speaketh of but the censures for that they were so strictly executed Which commendation if magistrates were as willing to execute the censures of ecclesiastical Iudges with vs as at Geneua they are would no doubt worke like effectes with vs as with them And if the magistrate should not fauour them they would doe litle good in any place Thirdly he commendeth the same censure not as the institution of Christ or as a necessarie pollicie for the Church but as a very good pollitike and ciuill order deuised by men to keepe the common sort in awe But what if Bodin should say somewhat of matters he vnderstoode not his authoritie is very weake in this case being neither good in diuinitie nor excellent in pollicie and neither vnderstanding the state of Geneua nor our countrie and therefore no fit man to make vs here in England new lawes In the Harmony of Confessions there are certaine wordes inserted sounding much to the commendation of the Eldership Neither is it to be marueiled if they of Geneua that collected thē together made the wordes to sound as fauourably as might be for their owne state and gouernement but that all the churches or most of thē yea or any saue the disciples of the Geneuian eldership consent in one harmony of prayses of that forme of discipline cannot be proued No although the authors with 2 See the notes in the latter ende of the harmonie notorious falsifications wresting and forgerie drawe the sentences of the confessions frō their purpose to speake for the presbyterial gouernment Wherefore vnlesse the petitioner can iustifie this kinde of practise there is not so much credit wonne by the vaine names of Carpenter Bodin and the confessions of Churches as there is lost by forgerie falsifications and grosse leasings To strengthen the weake ioynts of this discrasied reason drawen frō authority he saith Frist that the consistorial gouernment is also receiued of the Churches of Heluetia the low countries Millain Poland and Hungarie Secōdly that it is vnder the Turke among the papists wherein he sheweth either singuler malice in lying wilfully or presumptuous ignorance in speaking of matters he vnderstood not For it is wel knowen that the churches of Heluetia neither haue Geneuian elders nor excōmunication And that the churches of the lowe countries to speake nothing of France nor Scotland liue in great confusiō disorder a matter rather to moue vs to refuse the consistorie then to embrace it And likewise it is euident that in Millaine Hungarie there is no visible church but of those that professe poperie And albeit there be some fewe elders amōg the papists of France Germanie and Hungarie yet doe they not shew thēselues nor haue they any allowance or thankes for being there But what maner of conclusion is this That because among papistes and Turkes Elders are receiued that we must also receiue them There are also Anabaptists Arrians and I know not how many heresies among the Turkes papistes which no reason requireth vs to embrace Poperie likewise is professed vnder the Turke not onely this consistorial discipline So that nothing can be more absurde then to conclude that therefore we are to admitte the Consistorie because it is crept in in Turky and among the papistes Likewise it is a vaine bragge to say That in the Church of Geneua Scotland France there bee thousands and ten thousands of the best diuines of the worlde I would the number of them were greater and their learning more excellent then it is I doe not enuie their nombers nor excellēcie but the rewarde of learning taken away and the great decay that hath hapned of late time in those churches doeth both teach vs what is now and what we are to feare and that when the reckonnig of good diuines is made it will come farre short of thousands much shorter of tenne thousands The ignorance want of ministers in France other Consistoriall places is too too lamentable such is the blessing of this countrie that one corner of England is able to match them all eyther in nomber or qualitie of learned men albeit we doe not reason from our owne authoritie The conclusion therefore that this bedlem discourser maketh is too too foppish viz. that Caluin and Beza and Tauergues and Chauueton and Perot and I know not who are more likely to finde out the trueth then the author of the remonstrance and my selfe for no man standeth vpon the authoritie of vs two though the simpler of vs in this cause feareth not T. Cartw. nor W. Trau no nor Beza their patriarke nor all their brags Neither doe I desire any man to beleeue me because I say so this is onely the conclusion of the platformers that beside the authoritie of men can say nothing for themselues But seing the interpretations of the consistoriall faction are fond fantastical singuler and contrary to scriptures to the Iewes histories to all the fathers and counsels yea contrary to all reason good concluding agree badly among thēselues and finally stand vpon the fooleries of the Geneuians their stupide followers vpon their falshood forgerie false allegatiōs abusing of scriptures I do thinke and auow that neither diuinitie nor humaine reason wil permit any man any longer to be abused by them or to giue credit to those that vse them Wherefore cōsidering the weake groundes which the consistoriall gouernement standeth vpon and the forgerie falshood and impudencie whereby it is supported and the disorder and confusion it would worke in the church in learning in lawes in her Maiesties authoritie in her reuenues in euery mans priuate right beside if it were receiued and lastly the seditious lewd courses that some men haue taken to establish the same If some haue bin punished it cannot be denied but that they haue wel deserued it yea that they haue deserued more punishment and lesse fauour For neuer was matter preferred with worse course which I doe not speake for that I would haue either the disciplinarians faultes or penalties aggrauated for the faults are grieuous in ough already and the punishment I referre to our superiors but least any should surmise they are wronged or that the lawes are rigorous or that the proceedings of her Maiestie and officers against them are iniurious For further declaration whereof I haue thought good not onely to answere the vaine cauils of the petitioner against the proceedings of
some did which inueighed against popish bishops and affirmeth that they woulde write so much against their father if hee were a bishop or non resident matters most absurde and false for neyther haue these leude and loose companions such a commission as had the Prophetes nor is the ecclesiasticall state to be compared with the idolatrous and wicked priests or popish bishops Neither haue the same followed the steps of Prophets or any propheticall persons Gods Prophetes they speake nothing but truth these are still telling vs prodigious and false tales of their consistorie and counterfeit discipline The Prophets neuer ray led against authority nor gouernors these raile against ecclesiastical ciuil gouernors and al that withstand thē the prophets shewed not thēselues vnnaturall to their parents these professe vnkindnes they did not assemble in seditious sort nor go about to make new lawes for the Church as these did They neuer by wicked conspiracy went about to establsh any newe fancies as did Wigginton Hacket Coppinger Cartw. Vdall and all that were acquainted with that action They neuer declaymed against others being most guilty thēselues as these fellowes do which being most negligent and loose in laboring most vnlearned and ignorant full of newe fooleries doe notwithstanding inueigh against others so bitterly that as this wise felow professeth they wil not spare their father no nor mother and why forsooth because they are of those which S. Paul speaketh of and telleth vs that they are without 1 2. Tim. 3.3 naturall affection This defence therefore is vnsufficient first for that it is false for they doe otherwise then they professe And secondly for that they confesse in this treatise at vnawares that they diffame her Maiesties gouernment affirming the same to be full of enormious corruptions and to haue in it reliques of Idolatrie and impietie and to mainteine a wicked and vnsufficient 2 The ministery of England is better without comparison then that of France Scotland or Dutchland ministerie imitating therein as vnderhand they insinuate the wicked kings of Israel and cruell tyrants that persecuted the Church And lastly for that hee auoucheth that in those times no man was accounted a diffamer of princes that spake against the ecclesiasticall lawes and state which cannot be prooued To iustifie his companions doings he telleth vs further a long discourse how they pray for her Maiesty how they pay subsidy how they fought for her Maiesty when the Spanyards were here And how some whom England shall remēber while it is England ventured as farre as any which is no more thē the papists professe nor thē Iewes Pagans do which yeeld al duties to princes fight when as the Puritanes plaied the cowards few shewed themselues for I knowe diuerse that being there sawe very fewe puritanes armed to mainteine this bragge But so deinty and nice they are that they exclame if they be not highly rewarded for euery litle dutie yea for fighting for themselues their countrey and plainely professe that without their desires for discipline they meane to withdrawe all duetie And therefore this is but a vaine bragge of praying preaching foure times a day and I knowe not what for their tumultuous praying and prating in those times did rather discourage then encourage any and was rather the beginning of tumult then any encouragement and hee that preached foure times a day had much idle talke and made many vnsauorie discourses But suppose some fewe of these men shewed themselues loyall and were so ventrous as to come to Tilberie or rayle against the Spanyardes yet others as it may well be surmised were framing supplications and prouiding horse and armes to come to present them al in armes Then did Martin frame his seditious libelles then others preached seditious sermons all tending to the weakning of those that willingly offred themselues in that seruice And Martin senior professeth that when the enemie was readie to assayle vs abroad there were a hundred thousand handes readie to subscribe the supplication of puritanes at home which saith he in good pollicie we being in feare of outward force might not bee denied nor discouraged Then which there can bee no greater argument of their disloyall proceedings Where they are charged with rayling against the princes gouernement they excuse it saying that therein they meant no more malice to her Maiestie then the godly prophets that vnder Ezekiah and Iosiah reprooued the abuses of the Church which is a point which must bee read with great patience for who can else endure to heare them compare themselues to the prophets their doings to the doing of the prophets the comparison being so vnlike Gods prophets were humble meeke peaceable and possessed with Gods spirit These are proude disdainefull contentious and driuen with other spirits They neuer spake against the state nor condemned the calling of priests nor said that the lawes were antichristian and diuelish these stand especially on these points abuse the gouernors and rayle against lawes and this fellowe as malepertly as the best He would further make the worlde beleeue that his clyents seeke onely for reformation and doeth euery where dubbe them with names of seekers of reformation But great difference there is betwixt pretence and performance Iacke Strawe and Wat Tyler and Kett of Norffolke and all rebels pretend reformation as well as these but the courses and deedes of both tend to nothing but disorder confusion the prince they would abase the Church they would spoyle the ecclesiasticall state they seeke to abolish learning and rewardes in all places where they come they take away Moreouer hee goein about to prooue that bishops may be hated for their doctrine and first for that they impugne that which heretofore they haue taught but neither is his cōlequent good nor antecedēt true for albeit that bishop Elmar spake sometimes against the excesse of bishops liuings as he then imagined not knowing in what state they stood yet did he neuer condemne the degree and dignitie of bishops nor did bishop Bollingham as it should seeme speake against the manners of others then papisticall bishops assuredly against the degree of bishops he neuer spake Neither are the opiniōs of one or two to be ascribed to all but if they which speake contrary to themselues deserue hatred what doeth Tho. Cartw. deserue that in many things speaketh hee knoweth not what in some things contrary to himselselfe as in election of ministers power of the presbytery and diuers poynts And what doth the Libeller deserue that confesseth hee talketh he knoweth not what contrarying his whole discourse Another reason hee bringeth to prooue that bishops may iustly be hated and that is because they confesse saith he infinite abuses to be in the church But the ground of the reason is false for no bishop did euer confesse so much nor doth it follow because some one speaketh vntrueth that all the cleargie of England should be maligned and hated Thirdly he thinketh
forger be packing that without authoritie maketh out new commissions and new lawes Their desire is that euery congregation c. might haue one Petitioner or two sufficient teachers c. faithfully labouring in the worde of God or doctrine If their congregations be as great as shires Answere two would be too litle for euery such congregation and besides that the course that is alreadie taken for preachers is better then they can deuise any For now in diuers shires there bee hundreds of preachers distinguished in parishes If euery parish bee a sufficient congregation as in deede it is how shall two bee maintained in euery parish where as nowe not euery tenth parish with the liuing that belongeth to the Church is able to maintaine one preacher Doth he thinke men wil enlarge their liuing If he doe he doth but dreame And as for the deuises of him that cogged vs forth the motion with submission sounding an alarme to the sacrilegious spoyle of the Church they would bee the ouerthrowe rather of learning then the maintenance of the ministerie for other great birds gape for that pray As for these poore dawes when they haue made way for others they may go picke wormes for any part they can get thereof themselues when Abbeyes were ouerthrowen 1 That appeareth by the preface of the statute concerning that poynt erecting of schooles hospitals and colledges of preachers was pretended but whither the spoyle went wee doe well vnderstand and doe not thinke that there will be other prouision nowe then was then or that men will in spoyling bee more religious now then some were then They woulde haue assisting elders Petitioner c. that should not encroch on the magistrates authoritie and they would haue the most honest and sufficient men togather for the poore and keepe the treasure of the Church The treasurie of the Church woulde bee so thinne Answere if this deuise of elders and lay deacons shoulde take place that they shoulde not neede to take any care for the keeping of the treasurie At Geneua and in the reformed Churches of France as they call them the treasurie is all but one poore almes boxe They neede not feare robbing why then should any that fauoureth the Church like of their beggerly deuise or of assisting elders proctors for the poore that are but new conceits calculated by a glasse of wine vnknowen to scriptures fathers and antiquitie and borne out with sacing and sauour of nought but sacriledge Neyther can his aldermen nor lay deacons bee prooued nor doe they abstaine from encroching vpon the magistrate nor will any such men as hee supposeth take on them the base function of lay deacons and therefore all these desires are nothing but a fardell of foolerie They would haue olde helpers so quallified Petitioner as the Apostle commandeth 1. Tim. 5. Doe they knowe what they would haue Answere Let them shewe eyther commandement in scripture or practise in the primitiue Church or Church of Geneua of their olde widowes and then I woulde hope they had some care or knowledge what they desired if they cannot then I woulde pray some yong helpers to helpe vs away with such old fablers They would haue all these ordeyned in such maner Petitioner and by such persons as the word of God practise of the primitiue Church and moderne Churches doth warrant What if these moderne Churches neyther agree among themselues Answere nor with the worde of God nor primitiue Church will you not then confesse that you require things not coherent and that cannot stand together Looke where you finde any lawles counterfeite lay elders in the ancient Church or where any ordeyned but the bishop looke whether at Geneua there bee consistories in euery parish and what authoritie they haue And see whether Scotland doth not condemne imposition of handes and diuers orders which Geneua alloweth All these deuises cannot stand together and therefore if you had learned any thing in lawe you might well vnderstand that forasmuch as you alledge things contrary your libell and petitions are to bee reiected They desire synodes particuler prouinciall and nationall Petitioner and moderators of them They must shew better reasons Answere or else no man will regarde their desires Oecumenicall synodes and synodes of diuerse nations they exclude and ridiculously distinguish particuler from prouinciall synodes and make particoloured synodes and a mash of lawes fitter for sicke horses then men And by the same they goe about to ouerthrow the ancient gouernement of the Church the lawes of the Realme the prerogatiue and reuenues of the Crowne and to say all in one worde both religion and learning They woulde Petitioner that the partie grieued might appeale from the particuler congregation or synode at the first instance to the magistrate This seemeth to mee a poynt that will hardly bee prooued Answere for the common receiued opinion is contrary Beza doth flatly deny it and others exclude the prince from all iudgement yea and office in ecclesiasticall causes This fellowe therefore is the onely singuler doctor of discipline that giueth cognition of appeales from synodes to the prince But marke I pray you the ridiculous ignorance of this simple fellowe first he would haue the appeale from the synode or particuler congregation in the first instance And yet euery man may see that the first instance was where the cause was first begunne that is in the parish or consistorie and not before the synode Secondly he wil not say that any man may appeale in the last instance for that were too much as hee thinketh so that still running on in the disloyall tunes of puritanes hee taketh from the prince the last cognition and giueth it to his synodes They desire that such people Petitioner as be alreadie capable and willing to liue as becommeth Churches of Christ might liue as they bee commanded by Christ If euery man might liue as he list Answere so hee coloured his pretence with Gods word and Christes commandement there would neyther papist nor other heritike be repressed for euery man maketh religion and Christs commandement a couer for his pretences But gladly would I he should answere me this question whither hee doth thinke that none doe liue as becommeth Churches of Christ but such as haue his dogbolt deuises of elders and their doltish gouernement if hee answere so as here he seemeth then must I tell him that there can be no greater slander of this state or of her Maiestie and the gouernement If not what doth he tell vs here of people capable and willing to liue as becommeth the Churches of Christ as if the people of England were neither capable nor willing so to liue Againe let him tell mee in good sooth whither hee doth beleeue that the consistorie and newe discipline thereto belonging was in deede commaunded by Christ and if hee beleeue it let him shewe the place and the
Egerton seeme to haue had intelligence with Copinger one of Hackets prophets as for Wigginton it is apparant that he was a chiefe slirrer in that action 21 Being cōuented for diuers misdemeanors they refuse the ordinarie trials of lawe 22 In the Vniuersities by bringing in the studie of Ramus writinges a man ignorant in Logicke and artes and fantasticall in all actions they haue almost ouerthrowen all good learning by studying of naked comments all sound diuinitie 23 In liuing lewdly themselues Rescij in ministromach Sanderus de schismate Rosseus and by infamous libels disgracing the Ministerie they haue giuen aduantage to the enemie and brought religion into contempt 24 They are but made instruments by some persons to worke the spoile of the Church whereof they are like to haue small part 25 In all places where this discipline is setled they haue ouerthrowen the authoritie of the Magistrate the state of the Church and vniuersities 26 Nay by diuers strange positions they goe about to bring in diuers heresies 27 They haue in their lewde 1 In their new Communion booke paraphrase vpon the Creede taken out two Articles out of the Creede viz. that of Christes buriall and of his descending into hell and haue added a new Article of their discipline 28 They affirme that hatred as it is an attribute in God 2 Fenner Theolog lib. 1. is the essence of God and teach very badly of the essence and persons 29 Penrie holdeth that Christ Iesus is the worde preached 30 They doe generally beleeue that the worde read is but a dead letter and no ordinarie meanes to engender faith which is the opinion of the 3 Bozius in libr. de signis ecclesiae papistes 31 Martin doeth scoffe at the holy virgine Saint Mary and Saint Peter and calleth them Sir Peter and Sir Mary in scorne and maketh a scoffe both at gouernement and religion 32 In leauing the studie of fathers and ancient writers and schoole learning all the puritans are become verbal diuines without soundmatter 33 To prooue their deuises they haue offered great violence to the holy scriptures expounding them contrary both to ancient fathers and histories and common reason as namely their common places alledged out of the 18. of Matthew 1. Timothie 5. Romains 12.1 Corinthians 12. Ephesians 4. vpon the false interpretation of nine or ten places all their deuises doe stand 34 Themselues doe not agree either in the exposition of these places or in their rules concerning the presbyterie 35 Some interprete the wordes If thy brother offend against thee of priuate offences others of publike offences others of both 36 The Elders that are mentioned in the 14 of the Actes some expound Ministers of the word others churchaldermen 37 The wordes Dic Ecclesiae some expound of the Consistorie others of the Synode others of the conferences 38 Themselues confesse that they are not resolued in many pointes I haue set downe otherwhere infinite matters which they can neuer resolue 39 Themselues doe many wayes contrary to their discipline they condemne the reading of Apocrypha in the Church yet doe they allowe verball sermons wherein often times fall out strange doctrines and many vncharitable discourses which no man is so sencelesse I thinke as to preferre before the Apocryphall scriptures that are read in the Church They interprete Caluins Catechisme and other such like bookes which they cannot shewe to be canonicall 40 They teach that he that beareth not the Church is to be accounted a heathen and publican yet doe they not so accept him when the Synode iudgeth contrarie to the Consistorie 41 They say that euery Church hath equall right yet the parishes about Geneua haue no Consistories nor doctors nor execution of discipline but depend vpon them of the citie of Geneua 42 They say no man may enter the ministerie without lawfull calling yet haue Th. C. and Wat. Tr. and diuers of this sort here taken vpon them the ministerie without lawfull calling and intruded into others charges to the great disturbance of Gods Church 43 In Bishops and other ministers of this Church they condemne the mingling of matters ciuill and ecclesiasticall and account the same vnlawful yet doe none meddle with matters of state more then this faction yea diuers of them doe deale in base trades 44 Here they condemne ciuil honours in ecclesiastical persons yet is Beza one of the chiefe men both for reuenues and honor in the kingdome of Geneua and our puritanes receiue his letters like Apolloes Oracles 45 At Geneua and in all this newe gouernement lay men intrude into church gouernment and are made aldermen and Deacons 46 They condemne the authoritie of Bishops here yet doe they giue their consistories twise so large authoritie for here Bishops can doe nothing but according to lawe there as oft as it shall please the Consistorie without lawe or colour they may turne out all their Ministers and pastors to seeke pasture other where 47 Here they teach that Doctors and pastors are distinct officers yet at Geneua Beza is both pastor and doctor and others haue susteined both offices 48 All of them doe holde Fruitefull sermon that widowes and deacons are members of Christes bodie as they sticke not to auowe and yet in no churches haue they widowes nor ecclesiasticall deacons but onely certeine counterfet almesgatherers that are good for nothing but to stand with a boxe at the Church doore wherein the liuing and hope of many poore pastors in diuers places consisteth 49 In the disciplinarian kingdome the Ministers commonly liue in extreme contempt and pouertie so that fewe of worth take on them the calling which if order be not taken will be the ruine of religion 50 By the ordinances of Geneua onely the Ministers life in their visitations is looked vnto and no article set downe for enquirie of others conuersation so that it appeareth that this discipline is nothing but a deuise for the abasing and ouerthrowe and treading under feete of the Ministerie of the Gospell 51 There is no meanes giuen to the ministers to mainteine themselues much lesse their wiues and children awake therefore you my masters of the Church your enemies seeke your ruine 52 All matters wherein is breach of charitie the Consistories do take vpon them to order and to moderate rigorous dealing in lawe this toucheth your freehold my masters that studie the cōmon lawes 53 They take on them to moderate likewise all rigorous dealing in priuate contractes which concerneth all marchants and men of trade verie neerely 54 They take vpon them to apoint what rewardes shall be giuen to learning and how long they shall enioy them and yet you my masters of the Vniuersitie doe fauour these conceites which are the ruine of your selues and your succession 55 They giue the managing of Church goods into the hands of men of occupation and make the Ministers to depend on their deuotion a matter not to encourage but to discourage
al men of learning 56 In the rules of French discipline it is enacted by the Synodicall assemblie that no Minister shall possesse landes houses or tythes wherein they declare that Ministers must liue on almes and their wiues and children be turned on begging what man then hath not good cause to detest this odious discipline that doeth not onely ouerthrowe the Ministerie but the mariage of Ministers also by a necessarie consequent 57 Finally to shut vp all in one Article these men if they be not looked into will ouerthrowe religion her Maiesties authoritie the honour of the state the rewardes of learning the studie of artes and diuinitie both the vniuersities the hope of vertue the lawes of England and many priuate mens interestes I woulde say the Church also but that euery man is desirous that the same may hee ruinated but let them that seeke the spoiles of others take heede that they be not afterwarde made a spoyle themselues It is a common saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and oftentimes the spoylers are spoyled If I shoulde prosecute the whole course of their proceedings and lay it downe in Articles as the Libeller hath begonne I shoulde but wearie you with needelesse repetitions as the Libeller hath done alreadie this is sufficient to shewe vnto you that we want not Articles against these fellowes whensoeuer their cause shall come to audience yea Articles materiall and concludent and farre vnlike to the friuolous and ridiculous Articles deuised by the Libeller His Articles haue no sequel Iudge I pray you and consider of them all of them tend to this ende to shewe that some of the Ecclesiasticall state haue offended against lawes in small trifles and are to be punished which were it granted yet doeth it not followe that a new gouernement is to be embraced and the state altered which is his principall desire and seeking Contrariwise our Articles doe shewe that both their gouernement is vniust and disordered and their opinions lewde and fantasticall and their practises seditious and therefore neither to be tollerated which is that which not onely we desire but the peaceable maintenance of the state requireth and enforceth And I doubt not but all those that giue themselues to the studie of lawes or other learning or fauour the state considering these matters will hereafter discerne who they are that would ouerthrowe her maiesties lawes and that not in vaine diuers haue gone about to withstand their lewd proceedings Hauing made an end of his Articles he declareth That his purpose was onely to redeeme her maiesties lawes from captiuitie of the clergie But he abuseth first his reader for his whole booke declareth that his purpose was rather to ouerthrowe lawes then to establishe them secondly the whole Ministerie of of the Church whom he chargeth with suppressing of lawes when all men knowe that their onely desire is that lawes may be executed He would also make them more base and odious and yet nothing can be more contemtible miserable then they haue made the whole ministerie by their odious practises For wealth and riches marchants artificers husbandmen commonly goe beyond thē Fewe leaue any thing behinde them they pay foure times more to her maiestie thē any state of mē that are most charged pay it most willingly They are wronged of euery man what would these men haue more vnlesse they seeke their liues how thē did he not shame to say that the clergie keepeth her maiesties lawes in captiuitie or how shamed he not to speake of captiuity seeing not they but the Lords of the cōsistorie keepe lawes ministers subiectes yea princes in captiuitie Trauers in his booke against Bridges doeth vaunt that they had alreadie brought diuers princes vnder their yoke and excommunicated them They say as the Pope said that they haue power to giue ouer all princes to satan to bring in their constitutions they would ouerthrowe all lawes their onely will against all lawes must preuaile He further calleth the Cleargie carnall worldlings He I say whose workes are fleshlie whofe consortes are swollen with surfet and whose portion is in this world calleth others carnall worldlings and as if he were in a bedlem fitt cryeth out in his lunatike stile O England England how long wilt thou endure these carnall worldlings A strange matter that such presumptuous companions should either dare or daring be suffered to raile against the whole Ministerie or that any that is in the Ministerie or toward it should fauour this faction that bendeth all their force against learned men and Ministers or finally that any should either imagine that these men did entend reformation or endure to heare such lewde companions to call themselues authors of reformation can malicious libelling seditious practises counterfect hypocrisie notorious crueltie exceeding pride and vanitie stand with reformation no no. and therefore let this libeller that desireth to haue faithfull true English hearted men to examine these things obteine his purpose and let them examine both the ecclesiasticall state and these hypocriticall pretenders of reformation what bribes they haue taken what extortion they haue committed what tenants they haue racked what they haue purchased what they haue spent in ryote what landes they haue receaued from their ancestors what they haue left to their successors what offices they haue borne what wrōgs they haue done I doubt not but all the factious sorte will soone repent them of this course especially when it shall be shewed that their heartes are scarce English that misliking all English lawes embrace a packe of outlandish vanities that they seeke nothing but the desolation both of church countrie the ouerthrowe of her maiesties lawes honor and the confusion of the vniuersities and all men of learning And thus much sufficeth to haue answered concerning the petitioners articles resteth nowe that I answere also his interogatories and questions that hee may bee the better satisfied and you may the better conceiue of the mans ignorance and malice If diuers things bee againe repeated and rubbed ouer blame not me but blame the babbling fellowe that drewe me to it seeing he obiecteth I could doe no lesse then answere you that haue heard his demaundes with patience heare I pray you my answere hee calleth himselfe Putcase vnder the name of Putcase you shall heare the summe of his demandes and questions CERTAINE QVESTIONS AND INTERROgatories Putcase drawen by a fauourer of reformation c. Wherein he desireth to bee resolued which the Printer hath thought good here to annexe THe course is very odious and not to be suffered Answere for if euery leud questioner might frame cases against religion or lawes neyther shall religion nor lawe maintaine due credite And if euery libeller might lawfully make demaunds sounding to the infamie of gouernours and magistrates and their doings bee traduced by infamous interrogatories it would worke in short time great hatred and confusion His first fault therefore is this that hee
frameth an articulat infamous libell A second fault it is that such leude and shamefull practises are notwithstanding sayd to be drawen by a fauourer of reformation as if there were no difference betwixt slandering and reforming A third fault hee committeth in affirming these questions to be annexed by the Printer But the greatest fault is that such shamefull libels are commonly solde and the authors passed ouer without punishment Quaere first whether Iustice Wray did not affirme Putcase Quaest 1. that men should incurre no penaltie for opinions which they helde doubtingly and whether a man may not without breach of lawe make Quaerees and doubtes whether I may not be a Putcase I haue enquired of those Answere that were present at the time when these wordes are pretended to bee spoken and they doe assure me that hee neuer vttered any such words which I haue no reason to doubt of for it is not probable that so reuerend and learned a Iudge shoulde mayntaine or deliuer so strange an assertion for in matters fundamentall of faith to doubt is haeresie as all diuines doe agree And in externall matters the Apostle saith that whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne And who woulde not detest him that would make a doubt whether these disciplinarians be impious and flagitious fellowes that affirme it to be lawfull to make doubts and questions in those cases The very Paganes were farre more reasonable then this impious Putcase For the Athenians banished 1 Cie de natur Deor. Protagoras for doubting whether there were a God or no. As for matters of state I doubt not but whosoeuer shall doubt and make a question and not categorically affirme that her Maiestie hath right to her crowne and is supreme Gouernour within her dominions in all causes and ouer all persons is a ranke traytor Let therefore Pierce Putcase looke to it a little better and cleare himselfe of doubting and questioning least hee bee taken for a traytor out of doubt To come to the matter in question it is also euident that whosoeuer doth make questions to the diffamation eyther of the gouernment or gouernours or of priuate persons liuing in obedience of lawes he is to be punished as a libeller And therfore I would wish the man to shut vp himselfe in a case to take heed that he be not taken abroad For he wil be in a very bad case for his libelling and putting of cases if euer his reuelling against her Maiestie her ecclesiasticall lawes her officers and many other good men shal come in scanning Quaere Putcase Quaest 2. whether the forme of prayers administratiō of sacramēts attyre of ministers other ceremonies in England do more agree to the Apostolicall and primitiue order or to the vse of the Romish church whether popish orders be more seemely thē the Apostolike The questioner supposeth that I will answere that Answere which maketh for his purpose not doubting but to cut vs downe with the next blow But in vaine doth he feed himself with his owne conceit For I answere and will shewe that our liturgie and ceremonies agree neerer to the liturgie and ceremonies of the primitiue Church then to the popish orders And that is apparent first in quality for that wee haue purged out all idolatrie superstition false doctrine in which the papists do most differ from the ancient Church Secondly in forme For as the Iewes had readings of the law certaine hymnes and prayers interposed so no doubt the Apostles kept the reading of scriptures with prayers interposed which forme we keepe the papists keepe not The papists reade no scriptures and haue other formes of prayers Thirdly in the language for as in anciēt time so now we vse our mother tōgue Nay further we come neerer in our formes to the primitiue church then the consistorial orders For they haue no set reading of scrptures nor forme of liturgie as they had in the times of the first fathers and are so vnlike them that they haue abolished al the orders of the ancient Church They haue no set praiers but leaue al to the discretion of their speaker as they cal him who cōceiueth prayers either so confused that they are not vnderstood or so vncharitable that a true Christian may not say Amen Contrariwise ancient counsels decreed that no praiers should bee said in the church but such as first should by cōmon authority be allowed And albeit apparel is a matter indifferent yet in publike liturgie wee come neerer to the Apostolike Church whereas the puritanes haue abolished al Apostolike orders as they haue abolished al Apostolike gouernement To the last part of the question whether popish ceremonies bee more decent then Apostolicall I answere that where they are contrarie there the Apostolike is more decent But I denie that eyther the newe consistoriall gouernement or the ceremonies by the same appointed are Apostolicall or that our ceremonies are papisticall Nay I say that their newe orders are not Apostolicall but fantasticall and that our gouernement is Apostolicall neyther shall they euer be able to prooue the contrary Quaere Putcase Quaest 3. whether our rites and ceremonies doe not giue offence to the papists and whether indifferent things causing offence ought not by Pauls doctrine to be remooued out of the Church Whether they giue offence to the papistes or no Answere wee are not to respect nor to omit ancient and Apostolike orders to please them To good men the vse of our ceremonies cannot giue iust offence Nay rather the confusion of the newe gouernment and absurditie in the newe liturgie giueth offence for it confirmeth the papists in their opinion and offendeth all that are comming forward to ioyne with vs. For they see not how that can be the Church that refuseth all ancient gouernement and ceremonies and is nothing but a bundell of nouelties And therefore in vaine is the latter part of the question propounded whether matters that giue offence be by S. Pauls doctrine to be remooued for wee denie that our ceremonies doe giue offence Quaere Putcase Quaest 4. whether the square cappe surplesse c. condemned in generall by the Queenes Iniunctions bishops articles and doctrine of England and other Churches misliked by Bullinger Alasco Bucer Pilkington Bale and other learned men be decent and comely for a preacher and being vncomely whether they should not be abolished out of the Church First it is denied Answere that the attyre of ministers in England now is condemned by the Queenes iniunctions or bishops articles or doctrine of England A shamelesse man was he that affirmed it so impudently and so to bee credited accordingly for the contrary is euident both by doctrine of the Church and law of the realme And neuer shall this bold bayardlike Putcase prooue them either to be monumentes of poperie or defiled with idolatrie let him begin when he wil. What other Churches mislike in themselues we do not
curiously enquire if they were not too curious they woulde no more meddle with vs then wee doe with them At least they would remember that all Churches are equall if they say true As for the learned men that are named and others they may speake what they please of Popish apparell it concerneth vs nothing But that they haue condemned the apparell of ministers nowe vsed in Englande it cannot bee shewed of the most learned Nay the opinions of Bullinger Bucer Gualter and others are to bee shewed to the contrary Of the rest the authoritie is not so great as may weigh downe the orders of our Church without reason Finally what is seemely what not neyther Beza nor his followers are any iudges in matters concerning our Church In this Church this apparell is thought decent and therefore let the newfangled Disciplinarians weare their Flat-caps and Russet clokes and goe disguized like good fellowes that come from the Cart or from the market and so content themselues Why wee should refuse our ancient orders or followe them in their newe fooleries as yet wee see no reason Quaere if Maiors Bailiffes Stage players and others Put-case Quest 5. may not as well be forced to subscribe to the Bishops three Articles by the statute of 1. Elizab. c. 1. as Ministers seeing the Statute vrged by Doctor Bridges to that purpose doeth reache to them as well as Ministers This is a Question put to disgrace subscription Answere by a man that neyther alloweth the Queenes supremacie nor Cōmunion booke nor Articles of religion And therefore he iumbleth bishops maiors stageplayers together setting forth his follie as it were on a stage for which if he had his desert he would be brought to play a part on another kind of stage Why ministers not these should subscribe the reason is for that they teach others must be knowen to be sound of religion the others teache not And the same is confirmed by diuers lawes and practise of all Churches neyther doeth Doctor Bridges giue the least occasion for him to ground his doubt vpon him Surely a Stageplayer may easily shewe more wit and modestie then this pild Put-case Quaere Put-case Quest 6. whether Bishops vpon occasion prescribing certain prayers to be said besides the prayers in the Communion booke doe not offend against their owne Articles and the Statute of publike Prayer and ought not therefore to deale more mercifully with their brethren offending in like qualitie A profound question Answere yet of no man asked but of those that sinne of malice for who knoweth not that the statute of publike prayer prouideth against the malicious contemners of the Communion booke such as the Papists Puritans are who thinke they can conceiue extemporall prayers farre passing the reach of that booke and bring in newe Liturgies and not against such as allowe that booke defende it and vse it and onely adde some Prayers according to the diuersitie of occasions and tymes being also authorized thereto by her Maiestie and doing the same according to Lawe But this wicked fellowe is loath that any shoulde pray for the Queene or against the Spaniardes els would hee not condemne it Put-case Quest 7. Whether are not the Questions and Answeres at the baptizing of Infants in the Communion booke like to the questions of the Marcionites that baptized the quicke for the dead Chrysost in 1. Corinth 15. one answering from vnder the bed where the dead lay The last Interrogatorie was for the Communion booke Answere this is against it of so contrary pieces this worke is wrought But if the Put-case that framed this question meane to proue any thing he must shewe some better reason For there is not like reason in answering for Infantes for dead men Those are to bee baptized these not those haue sayth in habite these are passed Neyther is it strange if he that vndertaketh for the childes education doeth answere for it The Ceremonie is ancient and not lightly to bee esteemed vnlesse like to these newfangled Innouators wee meane to bidde warre to all Antiquitie and playnely with them to runne into manifolde new heresies Quaere whether with safe conscience Put-case Quest 8. a man may subscribe to the Communion booke that it conteineth nothing contrary to scriptures seeing the translation of the Psalmes differeth from the trueth of the Hebrewe in 200 places or more It is out of question Answere that the Consistorian faction denyeth not to subscribe to that booke because of the faults in the translation of Psalmes but for other matters which they would hide vnder this goodly glosse for by the like reason they might denie to subscribe to the Bible seeing the Geneuian Bible doth differ much from the originall text yet they vse and imbrace it and haue none other diuinitie then the Geneuian phrase Further I say that it is not the meaning of those that require subscription to confirme eyther errours of translation or of the print and therefore they doe but cauill without cause and obiect this without ground But suppose the intendment of subscription were strictly to tye men to the wordes of that booke whether they were well couched or not yet will it not fall out in reckoning that there are moe faultes in the translation of the Psalmes then in the Geneuian Bible Whether there bee or no this Put-case cannot tell for hee vnderstandeth not the tongue neither shall his companions euer bee able to iustifie either two hundred or one fault contrary to the analogie of faith Quaere whether it be agreeable to Gods worde or lawe Put-case Quest 9. to punish Libellers with returne of Libels Ribauldry c. and whether Martin offending in Libelling they offend not that made the Almond for Parrat Martins moneths minde c. Whatsoeuer those did that answered Martins ribauldry-bookes Answere they did it of their owne heads without either knowledge or allowance of their superiors and therefore let them answere themselues and I doubt not but they will answere reason for it is nothing so great a fault to answere as to make challenge And further they will say their bookes be very honest and ciuil in respect of Martins Atheistical Libels For he rayleth against lawes against gouernours and against men in authoritie they reuell onely against Martin and his barking curres and according to their reache doe speake for the lawes Hee wickedly sporteth with religion and matters of State these only play with Martins dizardry and his dizardlike companions If this Questioner reply and aske why are they not called in it may be answered that if he wil make himselfe party shew any thing in them against religion or law they wil be called in yea some of them haue bene called in and others of a more biting stile and nature haue bene stayed If he can shew no such thing it will be thought that this kind of vaine cōsidering the intolerable pride
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
the high commission especially seeing that the high commission dealeth only by authority from the prince and is limitted with lawes and is subiect to the princes commaundement and dealeth onely in extraordinary cognitions and may bee reuoked and cassed as the prince shall thinke meete And where onely Ecclesiasticall persons meddle with the censures whereas contrariwise the imperious church-aldermen clayme no commission from the prince nay they challenge the power and vicarage of Christ Iesus and superioritie ouer all princes and deale in small and great causes yea clownes and doltes dispute of relgion and throw out excommunications and rule all without lawe or reason by the onely instinct of their vncleane spirit or rather changeable fancie and therefore the Remonstrance sayth well that it is a lynsey wolsey and motley discipline patched together by men of motley ierkins consisting of contrary pieces iumbling both Church and common wealth together while ministers are sent abroad to beg for their liuing and artificers and clownes rule like Lordes in the Consistorie prescribing Lawes to princes so that if the Libeller desire this goodly gallimafrey of discipline hee is more fitte to weare a motley cote with an addition of haukes belles then to gouerne a Church or any part of the common wealth Quaere Put-case Quest 43. if the sole gouernment of a bishop in a diocesse be sufficiēt and most agreeable to Gods worde why is there an ecclesiasticall commission standing of many persons ciuill and Ecclesiasticall or if an Ecclesiasticall commission bee needefull in a Realme why not in a Prouince If in a Prouince why not in a Diocesse If in a Diocesse why not in a Deanrie If in a Deanerie why not in a Parish Lastly why might there not without absurditie and breache of true vniformitie bee planted in some places already capable a Consistorie or Commission of Elders though the like cannot bee accomplished in all seeing there bee newe Ecclesiasticall Commissions erected Deanes and Chapters broken musicke and Organs in some places not in other To these three questions Answere which are the very crisis of the Put case dreaming furie I answere first that seeing the prince by the lawes of God is soueraine gouernour in all causes within her dominions that beside the ordinary iurisdiction of Bishops within their seuerall Diocesse it is very requisite that there should bee a superiour authoritie to assist them and to strengthen them and to supply that which is wanting and in case they doe not their dueties to correct them secondly that as the Prince is one so there ought to bee but one supreme authoritie although by that authoritie her Maiestie may appoynt diuers Commissioners and yet nothing commeth thereby to the Eldership that claymeth authoritie not from the prince but from God and would altogether breake the vnion of her gouernement while euery consistorie would rule the congregation vnder it as best pleaseth my lords the church aldermen As for the gradation of the libeller if hee had vnderstoode any logicke he might haue learned that no kind of argument is more faultie by this reason a man might thus conclude against the libeller that if he will libell against authoritie hee will not spare the counsell if they withstande him if not the counsell neither will he spare the prince if hee contemne all humane lawes he will not greatly esteeme Gods lawes if hee care not for Gods lawe then will he not in the ende care for God himselfe likewise if the Sanedrin was at Ierusalem then in other cities if in cities then in boroughs so in villages and if the consistory be required in parishes then in villages if in villages then in hamlets if in hamlets then in houses if in houses then in the kitchin where the cooke is chiefe moderator which followe as well as his reasons many doe thinke that one high commission is inough too much for al England what then woulde they thinke if they should see in euery parish high commissioners yea what if there were but such cōmissioners as the aldermen of the cōsistonie be that claime a most absolute high commission from God planted in euery parish it would then be time to runne into some other countrey à remotis for it would bee hard liuing in England thirdly I say that there is no place in England capable of the aldermanshippe but such as is very capable of faction and disloyalty and that his reason drawen from organs and broken musicke is very weake for albeit there is broken musicke in some places and not in other yet can there be no elderships in any place for if any should bee placed the musicke of that companie compared with other places woulde sound like a paire of broken organes not onely like broken musicke and that gouernment would breake both Church and common wealth in pieces bring all out of tune they haue done it already in places where they be setled and were vnknowen to all antiquitie and therefore what reason haue wee to make triall of that which is like to prooue so dangerous Thus you haue heard all those contumelious cases questions and demands which this railing Putcase in his malicious fury hath thought good to propound not only to disgrace hurt the ecclesiastical state but also to ouerthrow law and gouernment if the course be lawful and honest who may not as well propound questions to the dishonor of any state or noble personage in the land there is no man of so rare merite nor so honorable but might if this course were suffered bee brought into enuie hatred and if I shoulde follow him in this course good Lord what shamefull and ridiculous matters do the publike and priuate actions of these factious persons offer to mens view al which albeit they deserue to heare yet it is not for me to speake neither do graue men desire to know I will only for requitall frame certaine interrogatories concerning the cause those persons which are principal agents in this cause that seeing how open they lye themselues they may hereafter deale more modestly with others if they follow this course I doe assure them that for euery one they haue propounded to vs there will be by some or other twentie propounded to them in the meane while let them content themselues with these and blame not me for I doe but answere and followe them seeing they haue begunne to come into this kind of field they must haue patience to stand to the hazard of warres if they would haue dealt ciuilly with me they should not haue ouercome me in curtesie CERTAINE QVESTIONS PROPOVNDED to the Putcase and his adherents wherein diuerse well affected to the state desire to be resolued QVaere whether hee that maketh doubt of the principles of our Christian faith bee not by the opinion of the ancient fathers an haeretike and whether the lawes do not condemne him for a traytor that maketh doubt of her Maiesties right to the
crowne and for a contumacious and rebellious person that maketh question whether hee ought to obey such lawes as her Maiestie and the whole parliament and wisest men of England haue thought to bee godly and conuenient and lastly in what case the Putcase and his fellowes are that in broade speeches openly and in printed bookes directly oppugne them and by calumnious questions pinch at them 2 Quaere whether those that woulde ouerthrowe not onely the priuiledges and liberties of the Church of England but also the whole ecclesiasticall state their iurisdiction and liuings seeke not the ouerthrowe of Magna charta and infinite statutes and of a great part of the common lawes of this Realiue and seeke the dishonour of her Maiestie and the state by requiring at her handes things that tende to the violating of her oathe taken at the time of her coronation and the ouerthrowe of the rewardes of learning and whether such as are chiefe doers in these causes are longer to bee suffered to proce do in their presumption 3 And because the Putcase maketh mention of that reuerende Iudge Sir Christopher Wray late lorde chiefe Iustice of England let him also answere whether hee did nor both in his opinion as a iudge and in bitter reâ—mes as a man in vtter dislike of these mens obstinacie coudemne those that obstinately refused before ecclesiastical iudges to take their othes or to declare being examined mattens concerning themselues or others so farre as then concerned had life or member and whether the reuerend learned iudge and lawyers of England haue not resolued the proceedings of ecclestasticall courts to be lawfull and disallowed the notorious contumacie of those men that refused notwithstanding vpon their owne vaine conceipts to answere 4. Quaere whether the booke of Fenner that is intituled sacra Theologia and came forth with the Pythagoricall allowance of T. C. conteine not strange diuinitie and whether it be likely that the resolutions of the consistorie shoulde bemore learned then the positions of two such omniscient diuines 5 Quaere whether it bee not reason to make T.C. recant those dangerous opinions he hath published in that booke and whether those that made the newe communion booke are not to be called in question for publishing of new confessions offaith and new doctrine 6 Let also great inquiry be made by what law or title the churchaldermen do clayme so large authority both in ecclesiasticall and domesticall matters as lately they haue taken vpon them in some churches k Quaere what is become of the actes and memorials of the consistorie that is supposed to haue beene both in the Church of God vnder the lawe and vnder the Gospell and what may bee the reason that so famous men should neither haue their names nor doings mentioned in any historie holy or prophane or other writing Quaere whether such as suffer their children to die without baptisme because the time of the assembly of the congregation commeth not betweene their birth and death are not guilty of contempt of baptisme and whether they that teach this doctrine bee found christians that rather then they will breake a consistorial rule will suffer christians children to depart without the badge and marke of christianitie 9 Quaere whether they that cal those scriptures which are commonly called Apocryphall lyes and fables doe therein declare themselues to haue the iudgement of learned men or modestie of ciuill persons seeing the fathers of olde time and diuers learned men of our times also doe honor them next after the Canonicall scriptures 1 Zanch. confess and whether T.C. would not take it in euill part to haue his voluminous replies called lyes and fables which notwithstanding are farre inferior to the worst part of the Apocryphal scriptures 10 Quaere whether the consistoriall constitutions doe not bring into vse the iudiciall lawes of Moses as for example that of retaliation of capitall punishments of adulterie and blasphemie and whether felonies that were by Moses lawe punished ciuilly may not be punished with death and whether that the Consistoriall faction doeth not deny her Maiestie power to pardon offenders that by Moses iudiciall lawes are to be punished with death 11 Quaere how it happeneth that the disciplinarians shame not to speake against Bishops which themselues deny not to haue bene euer in the Church since the Apostles times and which we offer to proue to haue authoritie by the word of God seeing they commend a fond and new found gouernement that hath neither authoritie of lawe nor confirmation by ancient practise the lawes whereof are most absurde and vnreasonable 12 Quaere by what authoritie they interpre the wordes Dic Ecclesiae and presbyteriqui bene praesunt c. and the wordes of the Apostle 1. Cor. 12.28 Ephes 4.10 Rom. 12. contratrarie to all the ancient fathers to histories to themselues yea contrarie to the text it selfe and common reason 13. Quaere why Ministersshould not be forced as well to subscribe to the gouernmeÌ„t of the church of England as the ministers of France to the French discipline they of Geneua to the ordinances of Geneua these being so lately inuented and established and hauing so notorious exceptions against them and being no way to be compared to the orders of our Church for authoritie antiquitie or other good condition or qualitie 14 Quaere whether the Consistorie decreeing and proceeding contrarie to the discipline of France and Geneua and their new Zion is to be allowed or obeyed and whether euery acte of the Consistorie be lawe to binde the rest of that congregation and if it be then what certeintie can be in that gouernement and whether that gouernement be not worse then papall seeing the Popes proceede according to their owne lawes these fellowes will not be bounde by any lawes either of their owne or others 15 Quaere if the Consistories sentence be the sentence of the Church whereunto euery one is to obey and he that obeyeth not to be holden as a heathen and publican how it chanceth that the Synode sometimes is so bolde as to reuerse the Consistories sentence and not to holde the disobedient as a publican and sinner 16 Quaere if by the wordes It shall not be so with you all power of ordination iudgement making and executing of orders deposing of ministers and such like authoritie be taken from Bishops by what reason the ministers of the new discipline in their new Consistories and Synodes take on them so peremptorily to put in and out and to make lawes and to determine most absolutely and imperiously 17 Quaere what time of the yeere and vnder what signe the resolutions of the Consistorie are most ripe viz. whether when the sunne entereth into Aries or Capricorne or in haruest time or midsommer moone and whether a madman that hath Lucida interualla as one of the authors of the petition hath bee a sound man to make a piller of the Consistorie and what order is to be taken
for such men when Luna is praedominant in their heades 18 Quaere whether it be a matter tolerable and beseeming wise gouerners that clownes and men of occupatiō should determine matters of religion or that ideots should iudge of lawe and gouerne all matters ecclesiasticall and by what rule of diuinitie it may be surmised that an ignorant man being chosen an Elder shoulde sodenly be endued with new graces and as Th. Cartw. the great disciplinarian patriarke faith become a new man as if he were new perboyled in Peleus his tubbe 19 When the Consistorie consisteth of 13 good men and true whereof sixe looke one way and seuen another Quaere why the odde voyce should make the sentence of seuen to be the determination of the Church and whether this be not an odde discipline where one odde man maketh a determination to be called the Churches determination 20 Quaere by what lawe Doctors Pastors and Deacons make one corporation seeing in no place of scripture they are mentioned together nor by any authoritie or commission are linked together 21 Quaere by what authoritie the Ministers of forreine churches take on them to prescribe formes of discipline and new lawes vnto our Church seeing they teach that all churches haue equall power and whether this be not a foundation to a new popedome 22 Quaere whether all the errours of Barrowisme doe not folowe and may be concluded of Th. Cartw. Wat. Tr. and Dud. Fenners positions and whether this sort of men is fit to deale with those sectaries and ought not rather to be driuen to make a publike recantation of their foule opinions 23 Quaere in case a musterd seller or chandeller should be chosen a churchalderman and thought worthie to iudge of the highest matters of religion who should all that while furnish the common wealth with musterd and candels and whether that their sentences would not sauour ranke of musterd and tallowe and how many candlesellers or men of occupation they finde to haue bene present in Synodes of olde time at the debating of pointes of religion 24 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not flatly deny the principall pointes of her Maiesties supremacie and take from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the church to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from the Ecclesiasticall courtes to call Synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuour to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacie and her maiesties prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church and all her maiesties subiectes 25 Quaere if the establishment of the consistoriall discipline in the Church of England would not ouerthrowe infinite statutes most of the Common lawes diuers courtes of Iustice the two Vniuersities and innes of court and finallie the whole state and whether the Vniuersities in places where this discipline is entred be not decayed and the state shaken notwithstanding that the power thereof by diuers lawes contrarie to the rules of discipline is abridged 26 Quaere how many sound diuines or learned men there are that haue bene bredde in the places where this discipline is receiued and whether they haue not parted the Church goods among themselues where they were masters as the soldiors parted Christes coate giuing some little portion backe againe of the whole least they should liue all together without religion 27 Quaere whether it be likelie for the vaine hope of a hundred poundes pention depending on the vncerteine pleasures of marchants men of occupation and husbandmen that yong men of towardnes will giue themselues to the studie of diuinitie and what braue youthes are made ministers within the disciplinarians iurisdiction 28 Quaere how the spoyles of the Church which these men haue made in all places where they rule are bestowed and what portion thereof is come to the maintenance of learned men or learning 29 Quaere what commodities her maiestie doth receiue now by renthes subsidies first fruites patronages lapses custodies of bishops temporalities and how much the same amounteth vnto likewise what seruices she hath now by the Ecclesiasticall state and their followers and whether shee should not loose both great reuenues and make many faithfull seruitors vnable to serue her if this inkepot discipline shoulde come in place and if any man say that the same should be bestowed vpon noblemen and knightes and gentlemen that should succeede in the place of others let inquire be made whether some puritane dame doe not spend in apparell more then the reuenues of diuers cathedral churches and whether it would fall out that the reuenues of the Church would bee wasted vainely which now mainetaine manie able men to doe the prince seruice 30 Quaere whether in all places where the factious disciplinarians haue set foote in this Church they haue not set the people against their pastors and deuided the people among themselues and hardened mens heartes and made them without naturall affection and lifted vp their followers in pride and vanitie and made the people farre worse then before and sought nothing but their owne profite and aduancement 31 Quaere whether it be not a dangerous point to this Church and state that we are so much vrged by some to imitate the course helde for reformation by them of Geneua and Scotland heretofore considering the dangerousnes of their plattes and the effectes that followed vpon them and the vnsounde diuinitie whereupon they are grounded 32 Quaere by what point of discipline they of Geneua expulsed their Bishop and liege Lorde and right Countie of Geneua and what reuenues of the Church they seased into their handes and what portion they allowed backe againe to the poore ministerie and whether it bee not capitall in that state to speake for the estate of Bishops which pointes cleared it will appeare what reason they had first at Geneua to inueigh and declaime against the state of Bishops Quaere whether the peremptorie dealings of the ministers of Geneua and some others adhearing vnto them and the greedie sacrilege of their abbettors and followers and the vtter subuersion of the ecclesiasticall state which this antischolasticall and fantasticall discipline doeth euery where worke haue not greatly hindered the reformation of religion in France and other places and is not still likely to hinder the same vnlesse the same be newly recocted and reformed 34 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not deliuer doctrine as dangerous to princes as Rosse Sanders Allen and other papistes namely concerning excommunication deposing and murdering of princes that withstand the religion and reformation which eache of them respectiuely desireth 35 Quaere whether 1 History of the Church of Scotland pag. 213. Knoxe saide truely of Caluin and certeine other Ministers then residing at Geneua and if hee reporte their doctrine truely whether they holde a sounde point of doctrine teaching That it is lawfull for
subiectes to reforme religion when princes will not yea rather then faile euen by force of armes 36 Quaere 2 Ibidem pag. 217. 234. 256 258. c. whether Iohn Knoxe and other his adherents grounding thēselues vpon the foresaid opinions cōcerning violent reformation did not by priuate motion without any authoritie put in practise a strange manner of reformation in Scotland and whether our disciplinarians doe not intend such a practise in England and if they doe whether they thinke that this course of theirs and these their rules of discipline will stand with Gods word or good orders 37 Quaere whether Beza was not the author or amplifier or publisher of the booke intituled De iure magistratuum in subditos a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all the authoritie of Christian kings and magistrates and whether the doctrine therein conteined be agreeable to the rules of that discipline which they haue so greatly vrged the same question is demaunded likewise of the booke called Vindiciae contra tyrannos a booke conteining no lesse pernicious matter against the authoritie of princes then the former 38 Quaere 3 Epist to Goodmans booke whether Master Whittingham that affirmed that the doctrine of Goodmans booke printed at Geneua in queene Maries time against the regiment of women and for exciting the subiectes to take armes against their soueraine princes in some cases was approoued to be good and godly by the chiefest men of learning that then were in the citie said therein either truely or Christianlike or schollerlike 39 Quaere whether the English disciplinarians that were at Geneua in Queene Maries time according to the said 1 Goodman pag. 73. 74. sequ and booke of Obedi pag. 99. 103. doctrine then there allowed of taught not that the nobilitie of England ought to reforme religion by force of armes and rather then faile to put the Queene then 2 Goodman pag. 99. 114. 115. sequen reigning to death and whether this point of doctrine be one of the principles of their new discipline and disciplinarian kingdome holden of most and professed of those that liue in free cities and states not subiect to kingly regiment 40 Quaere whether the said disciplinarian ministers and faction did not holde it lawfull according to the said 3 Goodman pag. 196. 87. 34. 35 185. 180 184. c. Geneuian doctrine That if the noble men and other inferiour Magistrates for feare should refuse to reforme religion as is mentioned the rest of the people might doe it in that case themselues and whether this be one of the axiomes of Th. Cartwrightes heauenly Canaan and a decision of their disciplinarian Synodes 41 Quaere whether the saide disciplinarians haue not taught publikely in bookes rather then there should be no reformation such as they wished that any priuate man hauing forsooth some extraordinarie motion or calling like that percase of Hacket might embrewe his handes with the blood of his 4 Goodman pag. 115. 199. 200. of obedience pag. 116. 110. souereigne according to the examples of Phinehes Ahud and such like 42 Quaere whether the reasons alledged by Knoxe and Wollocke against their gouerner and prince were sufficient in lawe for the subiectes to depose a prince 5 Histor of the Church of Scotland pag. 272. 278. or a regent lawfully appointed as they and others their followers did depose the Queene regent of Scotland and whether their allegations and doings are catholike rules of discipline for all times and all Churches 43 Quaere whether by the lawes of their new disciplinarian kingdome it be not as lawfull to depose a king from his seate and crowne for dealing in causes ecclesiasticall which they entend and affirme not to belong vnto him as it was for them of Geneua to depose their Bishop which was also their liege Lorde and prince from his temporall right and liuing for 1 Caluin to Sadolete dealing in causes temporall albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lorde and owner of that citie and territorie 45 Quaere whether the doctrine conteined in a 2 Declaration anno 1582. Declaration printed in Scotland why certeine persons mere subiectes repaired to the king at Ruthuen one reason of that forcible repaire being for that the king tooke vpon him to deale in causes ecclesiasticall be agreeable to the catholike doctrine of their discipline 46 Quaere whether the practises of certeine ministers in Scotland for the setting vp of their presbyteries by their owne authoritie as they are described in the actes of parliament helde there Anno 1584 and published in print are iustifiable by Gods word and to be helde for generall rules of discipline to be practised in all Churches 47 Quaere whether that be true that is reported in the Chronicles of Scotland which were perused and corrected by Master Randal Master Killigrew and Doctor Hammond concerning an other repaire made to the king of Scors at 3 Chronicle pag. 446 sequent Sterling and whether the proclamation there mentioned and the actions which then happened be agreeable to the doctrine of the disciplinarian kingdome taught euery where or els be but extraordinarie and locall and onely there to be put in practise where there is good opportunitie offered 48 Quaere whether in France other where they doe not contrary to their opinions for violent reformation of religigion by noble men by the people or priuate persons taught for 30. yeeres and vpwards teach now that it is vtterly vnlawfull for any subiect vnder any pretence of any extraordinarie calling so much as once to lift vp a hand against the prince be he tyrant idolator heretike or whatsoeuer and whether all the rest of the rules of this discipline may not as well be varied by time as this point is and what maner of disciplinarian faith this is that is so inconstant and variable and teacheth sometime obedience and sometime rebellion and like the Chamelion changeth haire so often 49 Quaere whether the wise authors of this petition doe not shew themselues to bee of the disciplinarian humour in this behalfe when they thinke it a sufficient answere in the behalfe of Beza Hotoman Buchanan and others that published the doctrine of stirring the subiectes against their princes to say they write so against popish kings and such as they iudged tyrants as if it were lawfull for subiectes to rebell against such as they account tyrants and popish kings and of T.C. let it be enquired whether he allowe this for one of his cananitish lawes of his celestial consistorie 50 Quaere whether 1 Conspiracy for discipline and examinations taken in the Starre Chamber published T. Cartw. and certaine ministers here his disciples haue not entred into the very same course for setting vp the discipline in England which you shal perceiue by the sayd declaration by the acts of parliamēt in Scotland Anno 1584 and by the English Chronicle that the ministers of Scotland
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
from them in externall forme and ceremonies As Papists doe make treason religion so it may bee Answere that these schismatikes for their misdemeanours woulde bee accounted religious Otherwise it is euident that neither Papists nor Puritanes suffer for religion in England And therefore euil doeth it seeme that they seeke reformation or deserue to be called seekers of reformation and wel doth it appeare that they haue a bad religion and conscience that colour their lewdnesse with religion and lye without conscience As for persecution it is a terme ill applied to the proceedings of our Bishops and lewdly are they compared with traiterous papists against whom they stand in cōtinuall warfare For neither doe they conuent any but for transgressing the lawes nor do they impose punishments but vpon the rebellious those very easie punishmēts which in time of popery were death euen for denial of the least ceremony which this Putcase not vnderstanding he sheweth himself to babble of matters that he vnderstandeth not That bishops did offer life to Vdal for I knowe none but him and Hacket and a traytor in Suffolke condemned about these matters it is absurd to affirme For not they but others condemned him Neither is it in their power to graunt life nor in their wisedome to offer that which they cannot graunt And if they should bee so remisse as to bee meanes to her Maiestie for them yet would it argue their elemencie in going about to procure their liues that seeke the bishops ouerthrowe nay that most factiously goe about to ouerthrowe the Church the state and the rewards of learned men Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether he that publisheth bookes with long premeditation doth publish the same with a malicious intent True Answere if they be malicious bookes such as this libel is and such as the Demonstration of discipline and Martins ribauldrie was Neither is the case alike of a Sergeant arguing against the trueth in his Clients cause and of these that with out fee argue against both trueth and state For it is well knowen hee doth it for his fee and taketh heede howe hee offendeth against lawe but these leauing the case doe argue or rather rayle against the person yea against lawe and honestie Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether ecclesiasticall Iudges doe not giue sentence contrary to the common lawes and statutes of the realme and whether prohibitions doe not lye in such cases No doubt Answere there lyeth a prohibition if they proceed contrary to law But men learned will take heed they do not and especially seeing they haue such Canarian birdes as this looking vpon their doings and watching for the spoyle But let them take heede for in warres the spoyler is often spoyled and those that digge pits for the innocent fall into them themselues Quaere Putcase Quaest 34. whether hishops are not in praemunire or at least desere to be imprisoned and fined for practising popish and ciuill lawes in their courts seeing all forreine authoritie is banished and those canons and constitutions prouinciall and synodall onely authorized that haue bene made in England Litle doth this dolt knowe Answere what the praemunire meaneth If he did he would not so often flourish with the sword and doe no hurt Those incurre the praemunire which drawe the Queenes Subiects into forreine courtes out of the Queenes courts seeke to defeate iudgements giuen in the Queenes courts Likewise he is ignorant what lawes are practised in the ecclesiasticall courts For there are no lawes practised there but the Queenes lawes viz. such canons as were practised in England before the making of the Act. 25. Hen. 8. ca. 19 and not as this fondling saith such canons as were made in England Good it were therefore that some of his company would eyther admonish him or premonish him hereafter to leaue babbling of matters which hee knoweth not For it is either plaine impudencie or lunacie so to wrangle Quaere whether the bishops or the consistorie Putcase Quaest 35. encroch more vpon the ciuill magistrate That is a matter most easily answered For the bishops Answere albeit they deale in testamentarie causes tithes mariages and haue Baronies and sometimes deale as Iustices of peace yet all this authoritie they haue vnder the prince and from him they deriue it Contrariwise the consistorie draweth no authoritie from the prince but contendeth with the prince about supreme authoritie It giueth lawe to the prince it doth chastise and iudge the prince vnder colour of the breach of Gods lawe it doth encroch vpon all causes and controlleth all that are subiects to Gods lawe whereof the same doth take it selfe to be iudge It chooseth and deposeth all officers of the Church nay it deposeth princes if the fautors of it say true These therefore bee the fellowes that encroch nay that treade downe princes and as Th. Cartwright sayeth make princes to licke the dust of their feete As for that which this Putcase alledgeth that the Archbishop giueth the prince dispensations vnder his hand and seale it is a fable Let him shewe any of these licences so graunted But sayeth hee the lawe saith hee may well then let him quarrell with the lawe and not with the Archbishop who challengeth nothing as these doe but by the princes grant Besides that lawe was made to exclude all forreyne iurisdiction which these men woulde gladly bring in That which the libeller sayth of excommunication for mony is a leud calumniation long since answered Forwel it is knowen that no man is excommunicated for money but for disobedience to the Iudges decree and sentence And as those that will not yeelde to the ciuill Iudges sentence euen in the smallest matters are compelled by imprisoment so those that refuse to obey the ecclesiasticall Iudge are compelled by ecclesiasticall censures For they themselues doe interprete these wordes He that will not heare the Church c. to bee vnderstood both of great and small matters Quaere Putcase Quaest 37. if Moses vnder the law and Timothee and others vnder the Gospell needed to haue a forme of gouernment of the Church prescribed to them by the Lord whether it bee likely that the Lorde woulde commit the Church to M. Whitg M. Cooper M. Bancroft and others to frame a gouernement for it at their pleasures The Lord doth not commit his Church to bee gouerned by any at their pleasures Answere least of all to the aldermen and new consistories things like toodestooles the last night risen out of the ground and ruling al things without reine or restraint of reason It might haue pleased this libeller in naming these men to vse other names if not for authoritie they beare yet for common ciuilities sake but he will perchance shewe that he neyther respecteth authoritie nor ciuilitie but meaneth to reuell at all that resist his fancie and that iniuriously for neyther these excellent men nor others doe hold it lawfull to frame a fond
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the