difference is not by meanes of the letter Reflect well on all this when you answeare the first booke nor of any common good Spiritt for that would not contradict it selfe as they do each other this difference cannot be taken but from the sense imaginatioÌ„ aÌ„d will of each partie and therefore each partie must be defined by his owne wit or by all his opinions in matter of faith 75. And here I answeare to your common replie of the Schoolemens disagreement in Schoole-questioÌ„s for notwithstaÌ„ding the varietie of opinioÌ„s in matters not defined by the Church before or in their tyme all Schoolemen that were Catholiques did agree in faith and all did beleeue the same according as I haue said before of other men Each of them tooke the iudgment of the Church for infallible therein beleeuing all whatsoeuer she either had or hereafter would determine This did euerie Schoole man euerie Catholique Deuine euerie Father 76. This way S. Augustine doth excuse S. Cyprian in the matter of rebaptization Before the consent of the whole Church by the decree of a plenarie or generall Councell S. Aug li. 1. de Bapt cont Don. c. 18. had determined what was to be embraced of all in that controuersie of rebaptizing the recoÌ„ciled S. CypriaÌ„ with allmost fowerscore of his fellow African Bysshops did thinke that euerie one who was baptized out of the Catholique coÌ„munion ought to be baptized againe when he had reconciled himselfe to the Church As yet there had bene no generall CouÌ„cell assembled in that behalfe but the world was held in by the strength of custome l. 2 c. 9. and this custome onelie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bringe in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst among many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not onelie found out but allso brought to the autoritie and strenght of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeede but yet before I was borne A precedeÌ„t plenarie may be ameÌ„ded by a subsequent plenarie in matters oâ— fact And in faith a generall not approued by a generall approued Councell In the same place by occasion of the Councells by S. Cyprian and his predecessors made in Africke he saith that particular Councells must yeld to generall and that the whole is deseruedlie preferd before the part or particulars More ouer in the same booke a little before he prooues out of S. Cyprians words that if S. Cyprian had knowne of such a definition he would haue corrected his opinion and then shewes how much he doth relie on it himselfe Neither durst wee affirme any such thinge if wee were not well grounded vppon the most vniforme authoritie of the vniuersall Church l. 2. c. 4. vnto which vndoubtedlie S. Cyprian allso would haue yeelded if in his tyme the truth of this question had bene cleered and declared S. Augustines Spâ—rit and by a generall CouÌ„cell establisshed And of the same againe he hath an excellent discourse in the fift booke where amonge other things he saith that he pleaseth not the Saint if he seeke to preferre his wit and eloquence and store of learning before the holie Councell of all Nations â— 5. e. 17. to which doubtles he was present by vnitie of Spirit and if I with the whole world do iudge more truelie â—bid I do not preferre my hart before him neither is he in that he iudged otherwise deuided from the whole world â—bid I preferre not my opinion before his but the iudgmeÌ„t of the holy Catholique Church â— Cuius vniâ—ersitas ipâ— non fuit â—d in eius â—niuersitaâ— permanâ—t all which he was not but remained in it This is inough for my purpose and in the same principles of S. Augustine you see now that I can answeare any obiection that you can bringe out of the dissention of ancient or moderne writers or rather if you reflect on it well you will be able to answeare it all your selfe 77. This passage hath made me call to minde other speaches of the Fathers not farre from this purpose whereof I thinke it not amisse to put some downe for your better meditation if you will be pleased peraduenture to thinke more seriouslie on their words then you haue done hetherto on mine The truth of the scripture is helde of vs in this matter when wee doe that which pleaseth the whole Church Aug. l. 1. â—nt Cres â—3 the which the authoritie of the scriptures doth commend that because the holy Scriptures cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgment of the Church which the holie scripture without any ambiguitie doth demonstrate Vincent lirin conâ— Haeres c. 2â— It is necessarie by reason of the windings of vnconstant errour that the line of propheticall aÌ„d Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiastical and Catholique sense And in the Catholique Church likewise wee must haue a greate care that wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where euer and by all c. 3. for this is truelie aÌ„d properlie Catholique as the power and reason of the word or name doth import which truelie doth coÌ„prehend all vniuersallie And this is so done in fine if wee followe vniuersalitie antiquitie consent vniuersalitie wee followe if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledge and Antiquitie if wee do not in any sort leaue those senses which it is manifest that our Fathers and holie elders haue celebrated and commended and consent allso if wee followe the definitions ad decrees of all or neere all the Priests and Masters in Antiquitie 78. A protestant would thinke me vnreasonable if I should demand and exact all these conditions in euery protestant proposition before I beleeue it yet I will beleeue none of their doctrine vnles it be thus prooued nor all their Religion vnles it be thus prooued all which is as much to say as that by Gods grace I will neuer beleeue it Wee haue possessioÌ„ the spirit is in our Church aÌ„d this father was of it aÌ„d doth acknowledge it of greater authoritie of more infallibilitie then himselfe aÌ„d his rules were ruled by it but I goe on In the Antiquitie of the Church two things are constantlie and with greate care to be obserued Idem c. 41 to both which all they that will not become Heretiques must steed fastlie adhere The first is whatsoeuer is auncientlie decreed by all the Priests of the Catholique Church in a generall Councell secondlie if any newe question doth arise concerning which there is no such decree to be founde then must recourse be made to the iudgment of the holie Fathers I say of those onelie who euery one in their owne tyme were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith And whatsoeuer they are
the assistance of the holie Ghost why was it promised vnto the Apostles and their successors why all this if exterior proposition be not necessarie for Gods people and why rather doth not euerie man bid adue to pastors Apostles Bible and all exterior meanes and expect to be illuminated and instructed inwardlie and priuatelie about heauen and diuine thinges Thus euerie man might be master in religion iudge in controuersies and a Church vnto himselfe 10. I will not repeate what you saie aboute the rule of scripture for that I haue said allreadie and hath bene obiected vnto you oft is more then all your fellowes could euer answeare yet as that without the iudgment of Gods Spiritte in the Church men cannot be certaine which is Gods word and what is the sense and therfore you must yeeld at last that the Church is assisted in proposing diuine things by the Spiritte of Allmightie God 11. c. 1. A fourth argument I make out of the promises of perpetuitie made vnto the Church and related in the former booke Heresie Arg. 4 destroies faith if therfore the whole Church were fallen into Heresie it were fallne allso frō the faith it were no more the Church as that is no more a man which hath not a sowle Since therfore it is cleere by the testimonie of God himselfe that the Church cannot faile it is certaine allso that is cannot fall from faith and therfore that Gods prouidence doth perpetuallie assist it to the conseruation of the faith You answeare that the whole Church may fall from Charitie and from the loue of God and therfore from faith allso This would not follow in termes because loue doth suppose faith and therfore if God had not otherwise ordained might be gone and leaue it behind as it doth oft in particular men And peraduenture your selfe do not loue euerie one you knowe or if you do euerie bodie doth not so wherfore loue and knowledge may be parted But omitting this I replie that your affirmation is against the authoritie of holie Scripture Ierem. 31.33 This shall be the couenant which I will make with the howse of Israel saith our Lord speaking of the Catholique Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in their hart I will write it Ezech. 37.26 and I will be their God and they shall be my people I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer and my tabernacle shall be in them c. I will despouse thee to me for euer and I will despouse thee to me in iustice and iudgment Osee 2.19.20 and in mercie and commiserations and I will despowse thee to me in faith and thou shalt know that I am the lord By this you haue that the Catholique Church can neuer be separated from the loue of Christ howsoeuer some particular members of it may as some partes of a mans bodie many be without sēse though the whole can neuer be without it And hence I confirme further the infallibilitie before mētioned for holines doth include freedome from errour and constancie in the faith but the Church of God is holie allwaies as here you haue heard and in the Creed you professe to beleeue it therfore it is allwayes free from errour 12. The fift way to prooue the said assistance is the continuall presence of our Sauiour and thus the discourse is made If the Apostles and their successors haue the assistance of our Arg. 5 Sauiour to the preaching of the Gospell and ministring of the Sacraments continuallie till the worlds end then hath the Church diuine assistance since the Apostles and their successors be the Church and our Sauiour God But the Apostles and their successors haue this assistance of our Sauiour as the words of the Gospell do prooue and manifest where our Sauiour to his disciples said Matth. 28 18.19.20 All power is giuen to me in heauen and in earth going therfore teach yee all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the sonne ād of the holie Ghost teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you ād behold I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world You know that a coexistence of two things to the end of the world includes the existence of each of them all that tyme. I was not with you all the yeere because I came awaie before it was halfe donne Since therfore the Apostles had not existence here on earth all the dayes till the worlds ēd which is not yet come though they be dead and gone many hundred yeares agoe it followes that our Sauiour speakes allso in them to their successors and consequently to the Church in all ages whilst the world doth endure And by this meanes I haue what I desire in this place that I neede looke no further first the assistance in these words I am with you before which our blessed Sauiour not ignorant of the difficultie which you would make in this matter put an ecce behold I am with you I haue secondlie the parties whome he doth assist to witt the Apostles which were the Church and in them their successors whilst the world endures that is the Church in all ages in these words I am with you all the dayes euen to the consummation of the world I haue thirdlie the obiect of the assistance that is to what kinde of acts and how farre it doth extend teach all nations baptizing thē c. teaching thē to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaūded you Fourthlie I haue here continuall assistance to visible acts for such are preaching ād baptizing ād these are visible to all natiōs since all natiōs are to heare these thīgs ād to be baptized ād since all nations doe not heare and receaue baptisme at one tyme as wee see by experience but some one tyme some another since allso the assistance to these actes is perpetuall and therfore the actes themselues perpetuallie found in the world it is manifest euen by this promise without going further that there is in the world a perpetuall visible Church Fiftlie that our Sauiour cā thus assist howsoeuer he doth bringe it about I haue in these words al power is giuen to me in heauen and in earth So that if wee beleeue Iesus Christ no further doubt can be made of this assistance 13. Out of the former comes another which is grounded in the obligation Christians haue to heare their pastors and to beleeue their doctrine and it shall be the sixt which I will make thus If all the people in the world be Arg. 6 obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation to beleeue the doctrine which the Church that is the Apostles and their successors do teach it belongs to the goodnes and prouidence of God thus obliging them to haue a care that it be right ād true otherwise he would oblige them to erre and liue amisse which is against the goodnes and therfore against the nature of
I haue appointed watchmen Isay 62.6 all the daie and all the night foreuer they shall not hould their peace It is not said they shall not hould their peace if they doe not sleepe according to your drowsie glosse or if they will not speake the word of God but absolutelie it is said they shall not hould their peace And thus much of the first Iohn 14. v. 16.17 32. The second place doth containe our Sauiours will as I said the words are these I will aske the Father and he will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of truth whome the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not neither knoweth him but you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you v. 26. The Paraclete the holie Ghost whom the father will send in my name he shall teach you all things aÌ„d suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you â—6 chap. v. 12.13 Yet many things I haue to saie vnto you but you cannot beare them now but when he the Spiritt of truth commeth he shall teach you all truth For he shall not speake of himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but what things soeuer he shall heare he shall speake In these words obserue with me seaueÌ„ things the first is who seÌ„deth Iesus Christ the soÌ„ne of God secondlie whom he sendeth another comforter the holie Ghost the Spiritte of truth thirdlie to whome he sends this comforter and Spirit to the Church he was to leaue behinde him here one earth consisting of Apostles aÌ„d Pastors persons visible by their function and office Fourthlie how this Spirit is to be with them to abide in this Church and to remanie with it Fiftlie to what end all this to teach them the truth Sixtlie Some pro are so Wise as to exclude teaching and say the spirit was left only to coÌ„fort not to teach what truth and how much whatsoeuer I shall saie to you what things soeuer he shall heare All truth Seauenthlie for how long For euer All this is in the text and therfore our position is most true that the Church hath diuine assistance in the proposition of the faith 33 I must tell you moreouer first that God with a fewe words can signifie many things his comprehension being infinite and he knowing all the significations and vses of all words And next that I take these words of Iesus Christ in the whole fullnes of their sense and meaning though some Interpreters haue contented themselues to put a part of it onelie downe hauing not then occasion as wee haue now to searth further In the Church are people and Pastors the Spiritte assists all some to teach aÌ„d to gouerne others to obaie and to be directed Some are predestinate aÌ„d with these the spiritte continues to perseuerance some are not but for a tyme beleeue and this by the assistance of the spiritte And some of them are teachers allso and gouernours aÌ„d in this kinde do participate allso the assistance of Gods Spirit who disposeth all as he pleaseth diuiding his guifts aÌ„d graces among men to his glorie and the good of the predestinate In fine all those whose names are written in the booke of life perseuere finallie So that the Spirit leades them further to the state of glorie and there shewes them all truth in it selfe abiding so with them for all eternitie 34. But now let vs heare what you saie to this place First you saie it is promised to the Apostles in their owne persons onelie This is false first because it is promised to remaine with them for euer whereas the Apostles in their owne persons were not to liue euer heere and perpetuall coexistence of two extreames includes a perpetuall existeÌ„ce of each of them as I noted before vpon the like occasion it is to them therfore and to their successors after them without ending at any tyme and so foreuer Secondlie by the end of the graunt the same is euident for the Church now a daies stands in neede of this Assistance as well as it did then and in some respects more because it is greater and the like it is of other ages and will be still to the worlds end since therefore the prouidence of our Sauiour for the establishment of his Church and saluation of his elect is perfect the graunt holds according to the letter and is so to be vnderstood as the word stands foreuer 35. Next you saye the sence is the Spiritte teacheth the Church all the truth that is taught her If I should tell you that my master in England did teach me all languages aÌ„d coÌ„fesse afterwards they were but two that he taught me you would thinke sure that I did lie for two be not all Yet would you haue the Scripture to speake in this manner But I answeare that the words of Scripture are plaine he shall teach all whatsoeuer I shall say to you whatsoeuer he shall heare all truth ch 14. v. 26 Ch. 16. v. 13 And I thinke if I should giue you all my bookes you would not be contented if my executors should giue you the tenth part with this interpretation of the will I giue you all that is all which are giuen you and then define what that is among themselues as you doe in the matter of fundamentall points but of this hereafter 36. The third waie of eluding the place is to saie that in heauen the Spirit teacheth all truth but not here That in heaueÌ„ he teacheth all I knowe well but you erre against the scripture in denying that he teacheth all truth heere Reade the text and you shall see that our Sauiour sendeth the Spirit vnto the militant Church from which he meant to withdrawe his visible presence to the Apostles left in the world and to their Successors to comfort them in his absence to reduce vnto their minde what he had said and to assist and teach them all truth The Spiritte of truth saith excellentlie S. Cyrill will lead vnto all truth Cyrill Alex li. 10. in Ioan. cap. 41. for he knoweth exactlie the truth whose spirit he is and hath reuealed it vnto vs not in part onelie but entirely for though in this life wee know in part onelie as S. Paul saith 1. Cor. 13. not an imperfect but the entire truth hath shined vnto vs in this litle knowledge * The Obiects of the Churches faith as the Trinitie the Incarnation c. may be knowne either obscurely by faith or cleerely by vision The former of these is an vnperfect knowledge of them the latter is perfect As he that beleeues all the Conclusions in Euclide for the Authoritie of Schollers who generally agree in them knowes them vnperfectly but he that can demonstrate them knowes them perfectly To both the foresaid knowledges the holy Ghost doth leade the Church to the former heere on earth to the later in heauen Of the
founde to hold with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple aÌ„d doubt must be the true and Catholique doctrine of the Church Whosoeuer beleeue that Christ came in our flesh and that he arose from death to life in the same flesh in which he was borne and suffered S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 4. and that he is the sonne of God God with God and one with the Father and the one vnchangeable word of the Father by which all things are made but do so disagree with his body which is the Church that they hold not communion with the whole as farre as euer it is spred about the world but are found separate in some part or corner it is manifest that they are not in the Catholique Church Prosp de promiss praedic Dei par 4. c. 5. The Apostles Peeter and Paul deliuering in the cittie of Rome to posterity the doctrine of our Lord peaceable and one haue consecrated the Church of the Gentiles with their blood and memories according to the passioÌ„ of our Lord. A ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„municating with this generall Church is a Catholique S. Cypri de Vnit. Eccl. He that is separated froÌ„ it is an Heretique There is one heade aÌ„d one origeÌ„ aÌ„d one mother by the issue of her fecuÌ„ditie copious by her increase wee are borne wee are nourished with her milke with her spirit wee are animated The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery shee is pure and honest She knoweth one house and with chast bashfullnes keepeth the sanctity of one bed This Church preserueth vs in God this aduanceth to the kingdome the children she hath brought foorth VVhosoeuer deuided from this Church cleaueth to the adultresse he is separated from the promises of the Church He cannot haue God his Father who hath not the Church to his mother In the Church S. Iren. l. 9 adu Haereâ— c. 40. God hath constituted Apostles Prophets Doctors and all the rest of the operation of the Spirit of which those are not partakers who repaire not vnto the Church VVhere the Church is THERE IS THE SPIRIT of God and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church and all grace Idem l. â— c. 4â— VVee must obay those Priests that are in the Church those that haue Succession from the Apostles who tegeather with Episcopall power haue according to the good pleasure of the Father receaued the certaine guift of truth And all the rest who depart from the originall Succession wheresoeuer they be assembled to haue suspected either as Heretiques or Schismatiques or Hypocrites â—actant â— 4. 〈◊〉 â—nstitut c. â—lt and all these doe fall from the truth It is onely the Catholique Church that hath the true worship and seruice of God This is the wellspring of truth the dwelling place of faith the temple of God into which whosoeuer entreth not and from which whosoeuer departeth is without all hope of life 〈◊〉 Aug. de â—de ad â—et c. 39. and eternall Saluation Hold for most certaine and vndoubted that no Heretique nor Schismatique though baptized in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost though he giue almes neuer so largely yea though he shed his blood for the name of Christ can possiblie be saued vnles he be reconciled vnto the Catholique Church 70. I omit many other graue speaches of holie Fathers to this effect of consenting with the Church in faith and submitting our iudgment thereunto And of S. Augustine particularlie whom I do alleage more willinglie because you preteÌ„d to honour him as where he saith for his part he would not beleeue the Gospell 〈◊〉 Aug. coÌ„t Ep. fund c. â— vnles the authoritie of the Church moued him That he was held in the Church by the consent of people â— c. 4. and Nations by an authoritie begotten with miracles nourished with hope increased by antiquitie And that it is a point of most insolent madnes to dispute whether that be to be obserued which is frequented by the whole Church through the world Ep. 118. c. â— Moreouer what S. Augustine said of S. Cyprian he might haue said of any other father to wit that he would haue yelded to the authority of the Church Neither would the Fathers hold communion with any who did oppose themselues to the definitions of generall Councells or to the doctrine of the Church but held them for Heretiques 81. And thus much for this point wherein I haue not alleaged the foresaid authorities to moue you for I knowe that in your * Vide I. Rain Concl. 2. fine conscience you will not yeeld to the Fathers neither a part nor all together in Generall Councell nor stoope to their Spirit nor beleeue their Creede But I haue done it to shewe you that I haue learned of them the doctrine which I tould you and that by their exaÌ„ple I do submit my vnderstaÌ„ding to the Church in all coÌ„trouersies and securelie rest in her iudgmeÌ„t For she with infinite eies doth allwayes diligentlie looke on Gods word aÌ„d with infinite care aÌ„d industrie attends vnto the truth Good wits though learned may mistake each scholler is not a SaiÌ„t the guifts of the Spirit are deuided amoÌ„g meÌ„ But all the treasure of the spirit all the Saints aÌ„d Predestinate the highest Authoritie aÌ„d all meanes possible for mortall men to learne the truth are in the Church There the Angells of the Gospell deliuer the will of the diuine Maiestie there the Secretaries of heauen do register Gods words and there Iesus Christ our Master doth teach and bringe vp his Elect and prepare them for his high Schoole of deuinitie wherein the Cherubins and Seraphins haue their order From * You say that wee obtrude vnto you doctrine for diuine which is not such For the nouice in Controuersie at some parts of the Bible Inuocation of Saincts Purgatorie wee denie that wee propose any thing for diuine and reuealed which is not indeede diuine and reuealed This is therefore a Controuersie betwixt vs. What way is there to know the truth in this controuersie The Spirit where In the Church Againe you say wee interprete the Scriptures wrong wee denie it what Iudge The spiritte of truth where In the Schoole of Iesus Christ VVhich is this Schoole The Church VVhich is the Church That which is in communion with Vrbanus 8. Reflect well on this discourse and make the like on all occasioÌ„s in any CoÌ„trouersie of faith whatsoeuer Is it a controuersie you speake of or is it agreed on both sides If a Controuersie and in Religion the truth may be knowne The question then comes Who it to Iudge And the Answer is The spirit In Whom in The Church But you will aske why must wee stand to the Iudgment of the Spirit in the Church rather then to the iudgment of the Spirit in N. N. as in Iohn Caluin for example I answere because wee knowe
by diuine Reuelation that he is in the Church euer teaching all Truth as I haue declared at large and I haue declared also which is the Church of God but wee haue no diuine Reuelation that he is in N. N. in Iohn Caluin Yea wee knowe he is not in him because he contradicts the Spirit in the Church this Church the Fathers had instruction to the iudgment of this communitie the greatest iudgments did euer stoupe Their practise doth so demonstrate Their books for them confesse it still And this is our practise allso this is our resolution wee confesse it wee professe it wee rest in the iudgment of Gods Spirit in the Catholique Church and to this Tribunall be you neuer so vnwilling you must allso come as I haue declared in this booke and here all * Cōtrouersie must be determined Wee doe not flie the Scripture wee haue it wee haue the Reuerence of Antiquitie on our side and reason pleads for vs but here the cause is ended When you do question the reall presence iustification by woorks S. Peeters primacie and alleage Scripture wee do likewise alleage Scripture and so pregnant that you cannot reallie answeare and then alonge wee goe to be iudged by the diuine spirit in the Church where wee are certaine he is and teacheth all truth When you say this or that booke is not Scripture this was or was not receaued in the primitiue Church the sēse of the letter is this or that Wee examine all and then appeale to to the Spirit in the Church where wee are sure he is suggesting all whatsoeuer the Sonne of God hath reuealed and taught to be receaued and beleeued of men When you pretēd that our doctrine is against reason against holy Fathers against Antiquitie wee produce testimonies of auncient Fathers and reason for our side and then submit the cause to the Spirit in the Church which looking on all truth can iudge best what is most conformable to reason to the Fathers to all Antiquitie And when you say that the Councells contradict one another that there are contradictions in the Scripture Wee are satisfied in these points allso by the Spirit in Church as being the highest Iudge of all cōtrouersies of infinite vnderstanding and no lesse infinite veracitie So that all particular Controuersies do runne into this generall Principle to be resolued and this Principle wee haue in plaine termes from the mouth of God THE FIFT CHAPTER Wherein some exceptions are answeared 82. THe obiections which you and your fellowes make are partlie against the infallibilitie of the Catholique Church in it selfe and partlie against the infallibilitie of generall Councells where Bisshops are assembled out of all Countries to determine commonlie by diuine assistance what belongs to faith and what is cōtrarie therevnto Of this second part it being not the whole Church formallie in it selfe whereof I haue intreated hetherto but the whole in representation onelie as deuines tearme it I will speake a word or two hereafter And will answeare that heere which you bring against the first which is the matter wee haue in hand You are to shewe not that some particular man or some part of the Church might fall of and leaue to be part of the Catholique not-erring Church for that wee see cleerelie in your masters Luther Caluin and others which once were Catholiques ād in the Church of Englād which was in the communion of the Church for a thousand yeeres together and by that communiō Catholique as being then part of Gods Church And is now fallen into schisme and Heresie but you must proue that the Catholique Church may erre in faith or to vse your owne termes that all the Church of God may be in errour affirming and beleeuing contrarie to that which is true in faith 83. And first I obserue that if you did vnderstand your owne principles you would dispaire of the successe of your owne arguments because by those principles of yours all that you can say may iustlie be contemned This I demonstrate for you will either prooue this doctrine of the Churches infallibilitie in the sense wherein wee defend it to be an errour fundamentall or to be some other errour not fundamentall The first you cannot pretend without contradicting your selfe presentlie for you saie allso that the Church cannot erre in fundamentalls and that ours in fundamētalls doth not erre granting withall when you are well vrged that ours is the Church and if you should start backe and denie it againe you will finde it vnder double proofe in another place The Second you cannot as much as pretend to prooue and demonstrate in your principles because according to thē you can take no meanes whereof you are certaine not reason for all men may erre in obscure matters nor Fathers for in your principles all might erre nor place of Scripture for you haue no meanes to knowe certainlie that it is the word of God the place not being one of your fundamentalles nor the Spirit because in not fundamentalls he assisteth not as you say and maintaine in this question or if he doth assist in this verie matter whether you call it fundamentall or not fundamentall he doth assist the Church for to the Church is the promise made 84. Thus you very wiselie haue ouer reached your selfe and left your selfe no meanes to prooue any thing against vs either in this controuersie or in any other for fundamentallie you confesse wee haue not erred and in other things by your owne principles you are not certaine Yet to gull the people you bringe texts not fundamentall according to your distinction and cry out Scripture Scripture the Gospell the word of God And if you finde a place in S. Augustine which neither your parishioners nor your selfe doe vnderstand you challenge vs to the Fathers whereas in your conscience you beleeue for certaine neither Fathers nor scripture but onelie some places which you call fundamentall neither do you acknowledge anie meanes in the world either from God or man to be sure of things not fundamentall as you tearme them as I haue shewed before and the same these your protestant arguments which followe would faine prooue 85. The first argument to this end is made against the Church in the state of the old lawe before the cōming of the Messias and therfore is nothing to the purpose because wee speake of the Christian Church as it is established by Iesus Christ and gouerned by his Spirit which Church is not limited vnto one Nation onelie but ouer all the world and therefore Catholique and of this I haue proued and wee do beleeue that in faith it is infallible Notwithstanding to maintaine the infallibilitie of the Iewish Church too before the Messias came which is an other questiō I resolue your doubt made against it You say the people of Israel did adore the brazen calfe therefore the Church all did erre You should haue prooued that all did adore the calfe that Moyses and the Leuites
their Pastor he redeemed them not for he gaue his life for his sheepe If they were our Sauiours sheepe they were also commended to sainct Peeter 10. 10. for our Sauiour made him Pastor of HIS sheepe without excepting any By this you may vnderstaÌ„d a place of S. Augustine obiected some tymes Si hoc Petro tantuÌ„ c. tract 50. in IoaÌ„ Cuius Eccesiae Petrus Apostolus propter Apostolatus sui primatum gerebat figurata generalitate personam Idem Aug. in Io. tr 6. Your exception heere is that what was spoken to Peeter was spoken to all and that Peeter did represeÌ„t the Church wheÌ„ he tooke Authoritie from Iesus Christ Answeare If you meane it was in proportion and secondarilie spoken to all the rest and not onelie to the Apostles but allso to all other lawfull Pastors in the world I graunt it but this will not make theÌ„ all equall If you meane that it was equallie and immediatelie said to all your glosse is false and contrarie to the text He said to him Peeter feede my sheepe Peeter was nor all the Apostles As for the representation I answeare that S. Peeter tooke the office at the haÌ„ds of Iesus Christ for himselfe to vse and for his successors aÌ„d for all the Pastors of the Church as farre at it should be couenient to make them partakers of this power and sollicitude vlt. propter primatum quem in discipulis habuit id in psal 108. for the common good of the whole Church and he in this did represent them all according as I haue declared because all his successors and all inferior Pastors to the worlds end could not in their owne persons be there to receaue this power and the Church her selfe was no otherwise to take the power I speake of but by the haÌ„ds of her Pastor because the coÌ„munitie of Christians could not exercise that office of gouerning or being Pastor in regard this communitie was the flocke 8. By that which I haue said here in this Chapter you finde excluded your fellowes tale of Phocas first instituting the office of a generall Pastor in the Church For if the scripture may be beleeued Io. 21. cited in Coccius and Gualterius our Sauiour did institute this office or Authoritie And thus much was acknowledged by the Fathers of the primitiue Church aÌ„d exercised by the Popes Successors to saint Peeter before Phocas euer appeared in this world It is true that Emperours might second what our Sauiour had ordained before to the end the Imperiall decree thus waiting on the diuine institutioÌ„ meÌ„ respecting the temporall power might stand in feare to transgresse who would otherwise preuaricate notwithstanding the divine institution so many forbeare stealing for feare of temporall lawes whom Gods eternall lawe would not moue to forbeare In this kinde Phocas decreed that the Pope should be accompted heade though the title were due to him by vertue of a higher InstitutioÌ„ aÌ„d he stiled heade of Bishops before this as you may finde in the fourth generall a Quibus tu quidem sicut membris caput praeeras c. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem rogamus tuis decretis nostrum honora in iudicium sicut nos capiti in bonis adiecimus consonantiam sic summitas tua filijs quod decet adimpleat ibid. Councell Neither doth the title of Oecumenicall or Vniuersall Bisshop in the seÌ„se wee take it any way derogate vnto the rest their titles of Bisshops as Philosophers giuing the title of vniuersall cause to a cause supereminent as to the suÌ„ne or to God hereby take not away the name of cause from particular in this lower world as from horses fire men But yet if you take vniuersall in an other sense not for that which is eminent ouer many particulars but for that which so hath all within it selfe that none answearing to the name is without it as b Si vnus Patriarcha vniuersalis dicitur Patriarcharum nomen caeteris derogatur S Greg. l. 4. ep 36. put that of causes in the same forme Si vna causa vniuersalis dicitur causarum nomeÌ„ caeteris derogatur And tell me now in what sense the proposition is true Si vniuersalem me Papam vestra sanctitas dicit negat se hoc esse quod me fatetur vniuersum â— Greg. l. 7. ep 36. indic 1. ad Eulog Alex He that in this sense should arrogate the title of Vniuersall Bisshop were a fore runner of Antichrist saint Gregorie did vnderstand it so neither is the Sunne an vniuersall cause nor the Pope vniuersall Bisshop because there are more causes besides the sunne and more Bisshops besides the Pope THE SECOND CHAPTER The Pope aboue other Bishops I haue donne with the comparison of sainct Peeter to the rest of the Apostles it followes now that I consider what comparison his successor the Pope hath vnto the Patriarkes and other Bishops Your labour is to equall others with him in authoritie To this purpose you first make vse of the Grecians proceedings in the Councell of Chalcedon where the Byshops you say did equall the Constantinopolitan See with the Roman I answeare first that this adequation pretended was not in originall or prime authoritie but in matter of priuiledge as in the words it is expreslie set downe to enioy equall priuiledges c. aequis senioris regia Roma priuilegiis frâ—â—â— c. Conc. Chalc. acâ—â— 16. Now priuiledge is a distinct thinge from originall authoritie and accessorie thereunto The priuiledges they did ayme at were that the Bisshop of Constantinople should in his proportion haue a maiestie in Ecclesiasticall affaires aboue other Sees Rome excepted in regard that Constantinople was then the Imperiall seate as before Rome had bene and therefore that he should take place of other Patriarckes aÌ„d be second or next after him of Rome And with all that he should ordaine Metropolitans in the Dioceses of Pontus Asia and Thrace These priuiledges they did aime at and hereby would haue had a kinde of analogie with the Romane Bishop this attempt of the Grecians Leo then Pope would by no meanes approue and the decree which the Bishops had coÌ„ceaued he did anulle Wee do vtterly saith he make void and by the authoritie of the blessed Apostle Peeter S. Leo. Ep. 55. ad pul Aug. do with a general definition wholy disanull the consents or decrees of the Bishops which were repugnant to the rules of the Canons made at Nice Hence I answeare secondlie that the decree wanting the consent and approbation of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical and therefore were it vnderstood of original authoritie as it is euident it was not and that the Byshops would therin not by proportion onely but absolutly haue equalled an other Bishop with the Roman it would not suffice because a Councell when it is not Oecumenicall doth not containe the full power of the Church to define or make decrees but may mistake and erre 10. Since
prototyporum memariam recordasionem desiderium veniant illisque salutationem HONORARIAM ADORATIONEM exhibeant NON secundum fidem nostram VERAM LATRIAM qua solùm diuinae naturae competit Definitio Conc. Nic. 2. act 7. Legatur Epistola Concelij ad Impp. in fine eiusdem actionis To this Decree the Church in the Councell of Trent refers it self Sess 25. and saith only wee are to giue Images DEBITVM honerem venerationem leauing the further specification of this honour to be learned out of the Nicene Decree further A thing may be adored per se and per accidens and by this I leaue you to vnderstand the Schoolemen for I speake heere onely of the doctrine of the CHVRCH Poets and Rhetoricians haue their figures Must a Generall and approued Councell be condemned with such beggarlie vn-cohereÌ„t prooâ—e as this Magdeb. cent 8. c. 9. col 636. Quare contra Adriani Pontificis Legatorum eius sententiam decernunt c. The Church hath euer since the Apostles daies and then too beleeued that such a Councell cannot erre and therefore you must produce better euideÌ„ce better theÌ„ that which plaÌ„ted Christianitie if you will make her in her ould age change he Creede 19. But suppose the Franckfort Councell had condemned all kind of honour donne to Images which thing you doe further preteÌ„d but caÌ„not prooue This were nothing against the infallibilitie of Oecumenicall Councells aÌ„d Decrees For that Decree of those Bishops assembled there out of the Westerne parts had wanted the consent of other Churches in communion with the See of Rome It had wanted allso the consent of the See Apostolike without which no decree is or was euer by the Church esteemed Oecumenicall Adrian theÌ„ Pope refuted the Canoline Bookes aÌ„d maintained honoring of Images as appeares cleerly by his Booke to the Emperour yeâ— extant in the Tomeâ— of Councells 20. The Second Obiection in this kind is that two Oecumenicall decrees one made in the a Laterane Councell the other b at Constance are opposite in the matter of the Popes authoritie one will haue the Councell vnder the Pope the other ouer wheÌ„ce you inferre that the Church doth coÌ„tradict her self in beleeuing both Staie Sir not so fast the Church hath not both parts of any oppositioÌ„ in her Creede but let vs coÌ„sider the streingth of your argument If you should auouch that you sawe two lions fighting it is not sufficieÌ„t to the veritie of your relation that the things which you saw did fight or that they were Lions for if one were a Lion the other a Beare or if both were Lions but did agree and not fight your relatioÌ„ would be laughed at To make good your argument you must prooue here two things one is that these are decrees and each Oecmenicall the other that one of them in sense is contradictorie to the other Then further if you will accuse the Church you must prooue that she beleeues them both in those contradictorie senses Your labour would not be vnprofitable if you a Nâ—c illud nos moueâ—â— debet quod sanctio c. eum etiaÌ„ soluÌ„ RomanuÌ„ Pontificem pro tempore existentem tanquaÌ„ authoritaté supre omnia CoÌ„cilia habenteÌ„ conciliorum indâ—cendorum transferendoruÌ„ ac dissoluendoruÌ„ plenuÌ„ ius potestateÌ„ habere neduÌ„ ex sacrae Scripturae testimoniis dictis SaÌ„ctorum Patrum ac aliorum Romanorum Pontificum etiam Praedecessorum nostrorum sacrorumque canonum decretis sed propria etiam eorundem Conciliorum confessione manifestè constet quorum aliqua referre platuit c. Conc. Lateran sub Leone 10. sess 11 b Ispa Synodus in S. S. Congregata legitimè generale Concilium faciens Ecclesiam Catholicam militantem repraesentans potestatem a Christo immediatè habet tui quilibet cuiuscunque status vel dignitatis etiamsi Papalis existat obedire tenetur in his quae pertinent ad fidem extirpationem dicti Schismatis reformationem generalem Ecclesiae Dei in capite in membris Conc. Constant sess 4. could efficaciouslie prooue and make it euident that one of them is such a definition as you speake of and that which soeuer it be wee all will admitte and thanke you too But I must aduise you of the difficulties you are to finde herein being such as greater Schollers then I take you for haue not bene able to ouercome 21. First therfore you are to make it euident that in the Lateran Councell the Superioritie of the Pope is formallie defined and that the words wherin it is attributed vnto him or acknowledged as belonging vnto him haue the nature of a decree for a Councell defines not euerie thing which it saith Secondlie you are to make it euident reflect in whose time and where it was how things stood in France c that the Councell was Oecumenicall and that it was open and free to all Bishops in the communion of the Church Thirdlie you must make it euident that the decree of CoÌ„stance is not limitted in circumstances and that it doth not speake onelie of such a Pope as were doubtfull or in case of Heresie or Schisme but absolutelie of any whatsoeuer Fourthlie you must allso make it euident that the decree was Oecumenicall or the Generall Decree of the Church and not of one Obedience onelie other two not consenting These are some of the many and obscure difficulties which hetherto learned men haue not bene able to see thorough and therfore the truth in this Controuersie lies hidden so as neither part is cleerelie knowne for aÌ„ Oecumenicall decree or definition though you rashlie and most ignorantlie haue affirmed it of them both Which you did to make shewe of good forme in your argumeÌ„t euerie one knowing that a contradiction betwixt Oecumenicall decrees doth suppose that both parts contradicting are Oecumenicall 22. Another part of your argument is that ita is Contradiction and this part must be prooued allso and made euident before your argument recouer strength But it is so farre out your power that suppose all the rest were dissembled you could neuer be able to make it good that is to prooue and demonstrate that one is opposite or contradictorie to the other and therfore you doe most vndiscreetelie reiect the Authoritie of Generall Councells reuerenced euer by the Church and directed by Gods Spiritte out of feare or apprehension of a contradiction which in the Laterane and that of Constance you thinke you see The Scholler who reiects Aristotle or Iustinian or the Bible for euerie seeming contradiction will neuer be good Philosopher nor good Lawier nor good Deuine 23. It is manifest by the acts of the of the Councell of Constance that the decree whereon you insist was at first not made by the whole Church because of three Obediences which then were One onelie that is Iohns Obedience or partie made it the other Two not being vnited vnto them So that if you take it as proceeding from those
of it which he declares largelie in old Heretiques and the same wee see in the moderne by experience and then concludes that it is therefore verie necessarie in regard of so many windings of errour to direct the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation according to the rule of the ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense 83. This is heere sufficient for Traditions diuine and Apostolicall which the Spiritte of the Church being to leade vnto all truth doth distinguish from such as are false and superstitious and doth easilie defend against all you can say The Scripture hath not one word against them as anie man will easilie see who doth but marke what he doth reade and will not take speaking for writing which the most ignorant with attention can distinguish in them selues being able to doe the one and not the other And the Fathers are cleere as you haue seene requiring euer tradition as indeed it is required for the Scripture and for the sense though the written word be perfect within its owne bouÌ„ds You allso though you loath it neuer so much must needs admitte of it for the Scripture for the number of Canonicall bookes for the pars of them for the sense and for other things you being not able anie other way in the world to answeare anie man who would denie them or to persuade him to beleeue that you haue the word of God or anie part of it Moreouer this doctrine is by generall consent of the Church defined in the Councells of Nice and Trent and hath beene the meanes whereby the Catholique Church hath conserued vntill now the word of God and therefore the contrarie open Heresie being opposite vnto Gods expresse words which I haue put downe in the begining of this chapter and to the beleefe of the old Fathers of generall Councells and of the Church 84 The text all scripture is profitable c. is answeared in the first booke c. 4. It is profitable true but it is not all sufficient It is sufficient too in one kinde for the written word but nor in all kinds not all-sufficient Tradition and diuine Assistance are necessarie too each in their kinde doth concurre Tradition is more generall then writing it deliuers the scripture and the sense of it and can teach also without writing and did before the Scripture was extant This Tradition relieth vppon the diuine Assistance whereof I haue discoursed largelie the third booke and neede not repeate it heere Particular causes in this lower world are sufficient in their kinde a horse to generate a horse a man to generate a man but the effect is not produced without the concurrence of higher causes The Sunne and a man saith the Philosopher produce a man The inferiour and superiour causes are sufficient in their kinds and yet vnles the prime and most vniuersall cause doth concurre nothing is produced You are to prooue that the Scriture is sufficient in all kinds if you will exclude tradition To all your peaching your mouth is profitable and sufficient too in that kinde you need not two mouthes but wthout a tongue you cannot doe it Mouth and tongue are profitable and sufficient in their kindes but you cannot doe it without braines braines and witte are profitable and sufficient in their kinds but all will not serue without learning So that you see the argument is not good it is profitable and to all therefore all-sufficient 85. And thus I am come at last to the end of this part also hauing answeared the chiefest things which you oppose in the decrees of the Church and shewed how the Church representatiue is vniustlie accused of errour The Decrees of generall Councells were beleeued before Caluin had any Schoole and will be when he hath neuer a Scholler In them is the highest TEACHING AVTHORITIE in the world and therefore the Schollers of Iesus Christ must beleeue what they define The sheepe are not to choose their pasture ould wiues and plowmen are not to decide Controuersies in Religion they are not to asceÌ„d the Chaire and expound Scripture to the world No the Pastors must doe this Mat. 28. Act. 20.10.21 Ephes 4. The Apostles aÌ„d their successors were sent to teach God put Bisshops to rule the Church he charged Peeter to feede his flocke The pastors are to teach The sheepe to learne 86. In generall Councells the Pastors are are assembled their Authoritie is vnited there to moue the Whole to teach the Church The Church is to followe their common direction and therefore it belonges to Gods prouidence to assist them defining And the whole Church vniuersallie doth beleeue that such Councells are assisted and cannot erre learned vnlearned people and Pastors all beleeue it and all the Church as I shewed you before cannot erre The Apostles did beleeue it allso and so vnderstood the promise of Iesus Christ Act. 15. Io. 16. when he said that the holie Ghost should teach them all truth God rules and moues the lower world by the higher The heauens vertue doth begette and conserue things heere on earth To the heauens for the regularitie of their Motion he hath addicted an Intelligence Our Sauiour hath so disposed his Church that the Laitie are mooued and gouerned in matters of Religion by the Clergie Rom. 20. Rom. 10. The Pastors begette and conserue in the people faith by preaching the the word of God And to the Pastors for the Regularitie of their Motion he hath left an Assisting Spirit Io. 16. the Holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth The Christian truth is to be learned in the Schoole of Iesê° Christ this Schoole is the the Catholique Church The highest CHAIER in it is a Perfect Oecumenicall COVNCELL No man hath or can with any apparence pretend as will appeare in the examination a fuller participation of the TEACHING POWER then such a Councell 87. To make an end therefore coÌ„sider well what I do saie That definitioÌ„ which the Catholique Church vniuersallie Of Church proposition there is more in the third booke where I haue allso told you how the diuine authoritie aÌ„d the Church authoritie doe moue both in seuerall kinds to the same acte doth take for a sufficâ—eÌ„â— direction of her faith by way of Proposition IS FREE froÌ„ errour Otherwise the Catholique Church vniuersallie might erre which is vnpossible as I haue declared in the third booke Now the Catholique Church vniuersallie doth take the definition of the Councell which SHEE ESTEEMETH Oecumenicall to be a sufficient direction of her faith by waye of Proposition as I haue declared there also And hence it comes that the definition of a Councell ESTEEMED by the Catholique Church Oecumenicall is free froÌ„ errour Will you haue another way without recourse to such a Councell Take this What the Bisshops diffused those I meane who are in the Catholique communioÌ„ do vniformelie teach is true If you should oppose that they are many and that you cannot know the doctrine of them all being diffused I would answere that by their communion with the See Apostolique their doctrine is knowne sufficiently for this purpose aÌ„d their communion is very manifest vnto all Where you must note that it is the exteriour professioÌ„ which I atteÌ„d vnto PropositioÌ„ this is easilie knowne and this as farre as it is vniforme in ALL Bishops in the Catholique communioÌ„ be they many or few so they be all is WARRANTED by the Holie Ghost and by this exteriour proposition or commoÌ„ doctrine whatsoeuer els any of them thinke secretly in their mindes I am to be directed Ephes 4. Mat. 28.10.16 He Christ gaue Pastors that wee be not wauering Teach all Nations and behold I am with you The spirit of truth shall teach you all truth If you dispute againe meddle not with points not yet agreed vppon among vs. Talke not of things controuerted in our Schooles at this daie The proposition which you oppose if you will oppose me must be a Catholique proposition agreed on generally by the Church Other things I can dispute in our owne Schooles and with such as know them better then you doe
Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.
de assūp sua ad pōtif Onelie Peeter is chosen out of all the world who is put both ouer the vocation of all Nations and ouer all the Apostles and ouer all the Fathers of the Church that allthough there be many Priests and many Pastors amōge the people of God yet Peeter properlie rule or gouerne them All whom Christ principallie doth allso gouerne TRADITION S. Chrys in 2. Thess hom 4. It is manifest that the Apostles deliuered not all things by their Epistles but many things without writing and both the one and the other deserue the same beleefe and therefore let vs esteeme the traditions of the Church to be worthie of faith and credit S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Wee must vse Traditions for the Scripture containeth not all things and therefore the Apostles deliuered certaine things by writing certaine by Tradition REALLE PRESENCE S. Cyrill Hierosol Catech. myst 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 TRANSVBSTANTIATION Serm. de coena Domini apud Cypr. S. Greg. Nyss orat Catech. c. 37. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With all assurance let vs receaue the body and bloode of Christ for in the forme of breade the body is giuen to thee and in the forme of wine the bloode c. knowing and beleeuing most assuredlie that that which appeareth breade is Not Breade though it seeme so to the tast but it is the bodie of Christ and that which appeareth wine is Not wine as the tast doth iudge it to be but the Bloode of Christ The breade which our lord gaue vnto his disciples being changed not in Shape but in Nature by the omnipotencie of the Word is made flesh Christ thorough the dispensation of his grace entreth by his flesh into all the faithfull and mingleth himselfe with their bodies which haue their substance from breade and wine to the end that man being vnited vnto that which is immortall may attaine to be made partaker of incorruption and these things he bestoweth transelementing the Nature of the things that are seene into it SACRIFICE S. Cyrill Alexand. in declar anathem 11. Conc. Ephes Iren. l. 4. c. 32. Wee celebrate in the Church the holie quickning and Vnbloodie Sacrifice beleeuing not that that which is shewed is the bodie of some common man like vs and his bloode but wee receaue it rather as the life giuing words owne flesh and bloode for common flesh cannot giue life Christ tooke bread and gaue thankes saying this is my bodie and the chalice likwise c he confessed to be his blood and taught the new Oblation of the new testament which the Church receauing from the Apostles doth offer to God in All the world In the books of the Machabees wee reade that Sacrifice was offered for the deade PRAYER FOR THE DEADE S. Aug. l. de cura pro mort c. 1. but were it no where reade in old Scripture the Authoritie of the whole Church which in this custome is well knowne is not small where in the prayers of the Priest which are powered out to our lord God at his Alter the commendation allso of the deade hath a place VVORSHIP OF SAINCTES Iustin Mart. Apol. 2. ad Ant. Wee doe worship and adore God the father and his Sonne who came and taught vs these things and the companie of his followers and the like good Angells and the propheticke Spirit and wee doe worship them both by word and deedes and in truth and wee teach or deliuer this abundantlie to all those which will learne according as wee haue bene taught and instructed PRAYER TO SAINCTS S. Ambros l. de Viduis The Angells are to be beseeched which are giuen to vs for our guard martyrs are to be beseeched whose patronage wee seeme to challenge by the pledge of their bodies They can aske for our sinnes who with their bloode haue washed away their owne if they had any They are Gods martyrs our presidents beholders of our liues and actions let vs not be ashamed to make them intercessors of our infirmitie CROSSING S. Aug. tract 118 in Ioan. What is that signe of Christ which all know but the Crosse of Christ which signe vnles it be applied either to the foreheads of the faithfull or to the water whereby they are regenerated or to the oyle wherewith they are confirmed or to the Sacrifice wherwith they are nourisshed nothing of this is well donne This will serue my turne and now I argue thus If our doctrine be found in the writings of Antiquitie and there approoued it is vnpossible for any man to make it euident that Antiquitie is against vs and for you but our doctrine is there found and approued as the authors before named declare abundantlie therefore c. And in Confirmation hereof I take only that which they alleage out of those writings which are by your selues acknowledged for ancient and currant because I neede not here dispute of the authoritie of such as your men and some of ours do except against Of this sense of Antiquitie I haue here allso giuen you a tast whereby a iudgmēt not distempered will perceaue immediatelie that you cannot make it euident that they were on your side And in naming them for your predecessors you giue no satisfaction to the demaūd which inquires for vndeniable and cleere euidence of a successiō of such men as in Religion you are The third book shall teach you whose interpretatiō must be stood to or of Protestants I knowe that you do offer to delude all the places which wee bringe but men of iudgment may see by your answeares that you dare not stand to the proper sense of the Fathers words an experience whereof they may see presentlie if they will but obiect vnto you these fewe places here cited ād obserue what poore answeares you make and how farre they are from the plaine ād Grāmaticall sense of the words or sentences Now further if your owne mē would open their mouthes and confesse plainlie what they beleeue in their consciences touching the doctrine of Antiquitie your assertiō or challenge would euidentlie yet appeare more vnreasonable and voyde of title muche lesse would it deserue to be supposed for certaine on your side that in those dayes all were yours Wee will demaund of two or three of thē if you please and the rather because their confession shall make roome for the next argument and bringe it in 23. Speake Fulck and begin I confesse that Ambrose Ful. reio to Brist p. 36. Kem. exam Con. Trid. par 3. p. 200. Hierome Augustine held inuocation of Saincts Kemnitius Most of the Fathers as Nazianzen Nyssen Basil Theodoret Ambrose Hierome Augustine did not dispute but auouch the soules of martyrs and Saincts to heare the petitions of those who prayed vnto thē they went often to the monuments of martyrs and inuocated Martyrs by name Whit. Def. p. 473. whitgift All the Bysshops ād learned writers of the Greeke Church ād Latines allso for
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
you must consider that the eie of faith ād the corporall eie may both finde their obiects in one and the same thing Wee reade the Scripture ād beleeue the sense The Apostles saw our Sauiour and beleeued he was the Sonne of God The faithfull assēbled when the holie Ghost came amongst them were visible and yet they where the Church First therefore in a word I will declare that the Church of God which soeuer be is visible secondlie I will shewe you the greatnes of it which is the thing I principallie doe intend in this Chapter thirdlie the durance or perpetuitie that you may frame in your vnderstanding the true conceipt of the Church of God 3. And first touching the visibilitie or to speake yet more generallie touching the sensible perceptibility of the thing wee speake of it is cleere that that which makes a continuall noise Visibilitie and is alwaies speaking and in all mens eies and cannot be hid is a thing sensible vnto men that haue eies and eares and if this thing be in all Nations and at all tymes it is sensible to all the world Now this is the condition of the Church of God Psal 18. v. 6. Isa 52. v. 10 which soeuer it be which I prooue thus by Scripture He hath put his tabernacle in the Sunne saith Dauid and Isaie Our lord hath prepared his holie arme in the eies of all the Gētiles and all the endes of the earth shall see the saluation of our God They of the west shall feare the name of our Lord and they of the rising of the sunne his glorie when he shall come as a violent streame 59. v. 19.20 21. which the spirit of our Lord driueth and there shall come the Redeemer to Sion and to them that returne from iniquitie in Iacob saith our Lord. This is my couenant with them saith our Lord. My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our Lord 62. v. 6. Mat. 5. v. 15 See S. Aug. enar in ps 47. from this present and for euer Vppon thy walls Ierusalem I haue appointed watchmen All the day and all the night for euer they shall not hold their peace You are the light of the world a cittie cannot be hid situated on a montaine 4. I omitte the allegation of more authorities because hereafter I shall speake more of this matter and these fewe declare and prooue manifestlie the truth of that which I said I goe therefore on to the chiefe point intended in this Chapter which is to shewe Gods eternall and inuiolable ordinance about the Churches vniuersalitie Vniuersalitie Gal. 3. And to begin with Moyses wee haue in him the promise of an ample Posteritie to old Abraham Father of Beleeuers made by God himselfe and expounded by S. Paul of the Church of Christ Gen. 22. v. 17. I will blesse thee and I will multiplie thy seede as the starres of heauen and as the sand that is in the sea shore thy seed shall possesse the gates of their enimies and in thy seed shall be blessed all the Nations of the earth This did God then confirme with an oath and proceeding in the promise 28. v. 14. confirmed it againe to Iacob afterward thy seed shall he as the dust of the earth thou shalt be dilated to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south and in thee and in thy seede all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed Next in the psalmes wee heare God the Father saying vnto his sonne our Sauiour Psal 2. v. 8 aske of me and I will giue the Gentiles for thine inheritance and thy possession the ends of the earth and the Prophet adds in an other psalme all the ends of the earth shall remember and be conuerted vnto our Lord 21. v. 28.29 and all the families of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight All Natiōs whatsoeuer thou hast made shall come and shall adore before thee o lord 65. v. 6. 5. Among the Prophets Isaie In the latter daies the mountaine of the house of our lord shall be prepared in the top of mountaines and shall be raised aboue the little hilles Isa 2 v. 2.3 and all Nations shall flowe vnto it and many people shall goe and shall saie come and let vs goe vp to the mount of our lord and to the house of the God of Iacob and he will teach vs his waies and wee shall walke in his paths And againe vppon thee o Ierusalem shall our lord arise and his glorie shall beseene vppon thee and the Gentiles shall walke in thy light and kings in the brightnes of the rising 60. v. 2.3.4 5. lift vp thine eies round about and behold all these are gathered together they are come vnto thee thy sonnes shall come from a farre and thy daughters shall arise from thy side then shalt thou see and shalt abound and thy hart shall wonder and be enlarged when the multitude of the sea shall be conuerted vnto thee the strengh of Gentiles shall come to thee After him Daniel I beheld in the vision of the night and loe with the clouds of heauen there came in as it were the sonne of man Dan. 7. v. 13.14 and he came euen to the auncient of daies and in his sight they offered him and he gaue him power and honour and kingdome and all people tribes and tongues shall serue him his power is an eternall power that shall not be taken awaie and his kingdeme shall not be corrupted The like is in the rest I adde onelie Malachie which is the last and neerest to our Sauiours tyme from the rising of the sunne euen to the going downe Mal. 1. v. 11 great is my name among the Gentiles and in euerie place there is sacrificing and there is offered vnto my name a cleane Oblation because my name is great among the Gentiles saith the lord of hostes 6. As the old Testament so the newe doth establish the foresaid vniuersalitie of the Church and our Sauiour doth giue commission vnto his disciples and to their Successors to raise such a one All power saith he is giuen me in heauen and in earth going therefore teach yee all Nations Mat. 28. v. 19.20 baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the sonne ād of the holie Ghost teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you and behold I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world Going into the world preach the Gospell to all creatures And in another Mar. 16. v. 15. he declares the issue of the foresaid propheticall speaches against such as would haue imagined they were cōditionall speaches onelie These are the words which I spake to you Luk. 24. v. 44.45.46 when I
verum est Sacrificium Missaticum torum penè terrarum orbem inuasisse praesertim superiore proximo millenaâ—io Hutter I graunt willingly that the Papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especially these last thousand yeares g. Simon Voyon Catal. Doct. in ep to the reader Simon Voyon when Boniface was stalled in the Papall throne the whole world was ouer whelmed in the dregges of Antichristian filthines with superstitions and Traditions of the Pope Then was that vniuersall Apostasie from the faith foretould by Paul h. Bibliander orat ad Princip Germ. c. 72. apud Caluinoturc l. 1. c. 4. A morte Gregorij magni ponimus esse per se notum clarissimum extta omnem dubitationem quod Papa Romanus sit Antichristus qui suis abominationibus blaspheâ—iis Idololatriis omnes regesterrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt brutis ipsis essent stupidiores Bibliander It is of it selfe knowne most cleere and out of all question that from the death of Gregorie the greate the Pope of Rome is Antichrist who with his abominations blasphemies and idolatries so made drunke all kings and people from the highest to the lowest that they were more stupid then very beasts i. Hospinian Hist Sacram. l. 2 p. 157. Gregorij magni aetate omne superstitionis idololatriae genus c. Hospinian In the age of Gregory the greate all kinde of superstition and Idolatrie hath as a Sea ouerflowed allmost all the Christian world not only none resisting but rather all helping and adding thereunto what force they could Thus I haue by Protestants assigned to me the space wherein Papistrie hath ben generall and the supposed Protestancie supprest I meane from Luther vpwards to Boniface and to the death of Gregory the great 20. Now that the Religion generall in the world then was the same with that which was generall in the world in the tyme of Gregorie the greate who died but three yearet before Boniface is manifest by the testimonie of a world of eie witnesses that is by the testimonie of all kingdomes Nations Schollers Pastors People by the testimonie I say of all ChristiaÌ„ Churches which being in the time of Boniface and of our Religion as you heard your Deuines confesse had most of them seene the exercise of the Religion in all the world in S. Gregories tyme and could not be deceaued in the fact subiect to the eie euery where as going to Masse praying to a. Perkins expos Creede pag. 266. b. Bale Centur. 1.74 Id. p. 65. saints coÌ„fessioÌ„ to Priests adoratioÌ„ of the Blessed sacrament c. They had allso all meanes that meÌ„ could haue to be informed certainly of the Religion of the world in S. Gregories tyme Books Records Relations eies to see the practise immediatly eares to heare what they said Instruction Baptisme Bible Orders all they had from them immediatly and the matter touched theÌ„ all and each in particular more then lands life or whatsoeuer else can be deare to man I might confirme this further out of Gods assistaÌ„ce to the Church out of which it commeth ineuitablie that neither the former Religion could abruptly stop as you imagine and the faith faile the Church fall on the suddaine the Church I say diffused thorough the world nor all knowne ChristiaÌ„ Churches in succeeding tyme or the whole Christian world generally erre in a matter of the greatest moment in the discerning the true Religion and the true Church of former tymes Leauing you therefore to deale with babes whom you may peraduenture make beleeue on your bare word without euideÌ„ce against histories against the promise of almighty God aÌ„d against the testimony of all the Church of that tyme that whilst all were a sleepe it seemes by your dreame the Religion of the world was generally changed in Boniface his tyme after the death of Gregorie I take vpon the testimonie of a world of people vpon the Testimonie of all Nations then Christian that it was not but that the Religion then currant was the Religion currant in the tyme of Gregorie the greate 22. Now that S. Gregorie had communion with all the world euery one knowes by his Epistiles to the Bisshops of Corinth Siracusa Extant inter Op. D Greg. Constantinople Alexandria Carthage Numidia Ierusalem Arabia Antioche Arles Vienna c. You graunt also that he did communicate with the former ages and was of the same Religion with them which is allso cleere by the consent and iudgment of the Christian world in his tyme who beleeued that he and they were of the same Religion with the Church of the precedent age and had best meanes to know it The same Church and Religion in the tyme of Leo the greate was also vniuersall and this likewise out of his writings may be prooued The vniuersalitie I say of Leo his communion is knowne cleerly by his Epistles to the Bisshops of Italie Ie op v. Ie France Thessalonica Vienna Sicilie Campania Tuscia Alexandria Antioch Constantinople Ierusalem c. in a word it is included and to the world made knowne by the Councell of Chalcedon If you will ascend hiegher with this vniuersalitie goe vp to Syluesters tyme and his communion with all the Christian world you haue in the first Nicene Councell and Further I thinke you will not presse me though I could further name S. Paul witnessing of the Roman faith that it was renowned in the whole world 22. Hauing bene loÌ„ge in the former argumeÌ„t and the longer because I would see whether you could make the like in all respects for the vniuersalitie of your Church and doctrine Arg. 6 there curraÌ„t amoÌ„ge you I will now be shorter in the next which I will frame out of the CoÌ„fession of Protestants too not so much for their authoritie which I esteeme not as to stop your mouth and it shall be this Bright-maÌ„ in his Apocalyps saith that the Church Protestant was hidden from the tyme of Constantine to wit 1260. yeeres that then the supposed Protestancie went into the desert Bright in cap. 11. â—2 Apoc. Id. p. 577. Broc on Reuel fol. 110 12â— Nap. Reuel p. 68. See also p. 191. and that euer since Antichrist so he calls the Pope hath raigned Brocard saith also the church supposed ProtestaÌ„t was trodden downe and oppressed by the Papacie euen froÌ„ Syluesters tyme to those tymes viz. 1260. yeeres aÌ„d Napper saith Betwene the yeare of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian and Papisticall raigne began raigning vniuersally and without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260 yeeres the Pope and his clergie possessing the outward visible Church of Christians all that tyme. And for the supposed Protestant Church and doctrine he saith Gods true Church most certainely abode so longe latent Ours therefore by the confession of these Protestants was vniuersall longe before the tyme of Gregorie the greate I knowe that you obiect the Primacie to
went Maronites and your deere freindes the Iconoclastes with diuers others You see how this communion continues euer Catholicke and that the Romane See is found euer in the Church and the Church in communion with the See of Rome To follow the streame further it is needlesse because you confesse that long before this the communion of the Christian world was with the Pope of Rome and that Nations were conuerted thereunto He that will may reflect on the generall Assemblies held at Rome at Lions at Florence As Also vppō the flowing of Nations vnto this Ocean in this and former ages together with the discarding of the Waldenses Albigenses and other Hereticks and he will see it to be most true that in noe age any communion hath bene acknowledged Catholique but onelie this which wee speake of and that the See of * The first Nicene Councell an 325. Fathers 318. Against Arius Communicated with Syluester Bisshop of Rome Cedrenus Photius Socrates Eusebius Baronius First Constantinopolitan Councell an 381. Fathers 150. Against Macedonius Communicat With Damasus B. Rome Vide ep Conc. ád Damas Theodoret. Socrat. Phot. Baron Ephesine Councell an 431. Fathers 200. Against Nestorius Communicat With Celestine B. Rome Epist Concil ad Celest. ep ad Imperat. Marcellin Liberat. Theophan Balsam Niceph. Baron The Councell of Chalcedon an 451. Fathers 600. Against Eutiches Communicat with Leo B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Leon ep 50. Baron Second Constantinop Councell an 553 Fathers 165. Against Anthim and Theodor. Communicat With Vigilius B. Rome Zonaras Eutichius Ep. ad Vigilium Greg. magn Niceph Baron Third Constant Councell an 289. Fathers 680. Against Monothelites Communicat with Agatho B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Zonar Theoph. Cedren Baron Second Nicene Councell an 787. Fathers 350. Against imagebreakers Communicat with Adrian B. Rome Vide act Conc. Cedren Zonar Baron Fourth Constantinop Councell an 869. Fathers 101. Genebr 300. Against Photius Communicat With Adrian 2. B. Rome Vide act◠Conc. Anastas Niceph. Platin. Baron Rome was euer in the Generall communion of the Catholique Church Your obstinacie and opposition hath beene occasion that I haue considered more particularlie of this matter and considering it I take much content to see the old Prophecies of the Greatnes and Perpetuitie of the Christian Church fulfilled before mine eies in the Church wherein I am 26. The tenth argument Were all Papistes silent in the matter of the Church the thing Arg. 10 is so notable that Heretickes themselues against their will would lead vnto it ād point it out For if you consider well there is but one truth ād many wayes there are to goe against it one true Church many false and hereticall And all those Hereticall are against the Catholike Church as errours are all against the Truth Now by Ecclesiasticall Recorde it is cleere that all confessed Heresies from the first to the last haue opposed themselues seuerallie The first Lateran Councell an 1122. Fathers 300. For instauration of Discipline c. Communicat with Calixtus 2. B. Rome Sugerius Abb. Platina Onuphrius Baronius Second Lateran Councell an 1139. Fathers 1000. For the Right of the Clergie Communicat with Innocent 2. B. Rome Oth◠Frising Sigon Platin. Onuph Baron Third Lateran Councell ann 1179. Fathers 300. For Reformation VValdens condemn Communicated With Alexander 3. B. Rome Guelielm Tyrius Plat. Onuph Baron Fourth Lateran Councell an 1215. Fathers 1285. Holy VVarre Transubstantiation defined Reformation of the Clergie Albigenses condemned It Communicated with Innocentius 3. B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Palmer Onuph Plat. Genebr Spondan in Auctar. ad Baron The Councell of Lions an 1274. Fathers 1000. Against the errours of the Greekes Communicat VVith Gregory 10. B. Rome Guiliel de Nangis Gregoras Matth. Palm Plat. Onuph Spond The Councell of Vienna an 1311. Fathers 300. Against seuerall Heresies Communic With Clemens 5. B. Rome Platina Palm Onuph Spondan The Councell of Florence an 1439. Fathers 141. The Re-vnion of the Greeke and Latine Churches Armen Ind. Cōmunic With Eugenius 4. B. Rome Palmer Chalcond Volateran Plat. Spond The Councell of Trent Communicat With Pius 4. to the companie with which the Bisshop of Rome did communicate in the tyme wherein those Heresies were and this companie likewise hath opposed it selfe to them all neither did they euer oppose them selues all to any other companie whatsoeuer This companie therefore which I speake of and no other is and euer hath been the true Church 27. The 11. Argument That companie which hath euer borne and maintained the generall prouidence of common Church-affaires Arg. 11 is the Catholique But the companie in communion with the See of Rome hath donne this and noe other which to omitte histories wherein the thing is manifest and by Card. Baronius deduced at large I proue by Generall Councelles by which is seene euidently First the Generall communion of the Church in the tyme wherein each was held Secondlie the communion of the See of Rome with each of these Councelles and consequentlie with all those partes from whence the Bisshops came Thirdlie the communion of each of these Councelles with the former Councelles and precedent ages Fourthlie which is the thing I haue spoken of in this argument this Churches diligence in conseruing Church-discipline and condemning erroures 28. Harke how the canones roare if your nicer eares will beare the word in Bithynia in Thrace in Ionia in Italie in France euerie where Against Arius and his faction at Nice against Macedonians and Monothelites at Constantinople against Nestorians at Ephesus against Eutichians at Chalcedon against Waldenses Albigenses at Rome against the Begardes at Viēna against moderne Greekes at Lions and Florence and against Lutherās Caluinistes and all Protestantes at Trent In Defence Of the Sacramentes Of the Primacie Of the reall Presence Of the Incarnation Of the Deitie of the holy Ghost Of the consubstantialitie of the Sonne of God and other pointes of the Catholicke faith and Church Againe Sabellius from men of this communion receaues his doome in Alexandria Paulus Samosetanus in Antioch Pelagius in Carthage Berengarius in Vercells Gilbertus Porretanus in Rhemes Nouatus and Donatus in Rome Finally all Heresies that haue ben hetherto haue had their sentence of condemnation from men of this communion and company from this Church of ours This Church and no other hath maintained the faith hetherto at all tymes on all occasions This hath maintained the word of God and kept it to this day and you know not which it is but by this This Chutch and no other hath maintained the Fathers doctrine ād the authority of generall Councells hetherto This Church hath triumphed ouer all confessed heresies she hath allready suppressed more then two hundred and hath bruised the heads allso of those which last peeped out of Hell to hisse against the Truth 29 By the foresaid waie of Oecumenicall Councelles is demonstrated euidentlie the Vniuersalitie of the Romaine Church and the Catholicke communion which in
a part and distinct that such as reade our papers may knowe when one matter is ended or agreed vppon and doe not thrust other things in heere If you graunt it Saie so If you doe not speake directlie to this point in this place and of no other I will not heare of erring or not erring in fundamentalls or not fundamentalls I haue nothing to doe with that It shall haue a place a part I looke onelie which is the Church answearing to the description whether it be subiect to errour in any thing or be not whether it doth erre actuallie or euer hath actuallie bene in errour I meddle not here with that The thing described in Prophecie the substance of the thing the Church I looke for and haue found her by her proportion by her face it is not yours it is ours THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Wherin answeare is giuen to some exceptions made against the Vniuersalitie of the Church THe Arguments which you and your abotters make against the foresaid vniuersality of the Church S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 12. are answeared easily And whereas first as Donatists heretofore did allso you plead for your pouertie ād paucitie of adherentes that there are fewe chozen and the world full of fooles I confesse there are to many fooles indeede and haue bene euer if you consider the whole collection of all kinde of Heretickes together with Paganes and Atheistes the number whereof being infinite the world may be said to be full But what is this to the purpose since the Catholique Church notwithstanding spreds it selfe into all Natiōs ād makes some of euery nation and those verie many also wise many being called by the Pastors by the Apostles by God to Christianitie frō all natiōs amōg which many though they receaue the word and for a tyme doe well doe flinch in tyme of temptation and fall of before the end and so they be fooles too and with the foolish virgines be shut out of heauē But yet notwithstanding all this there are in the Catholique Church some wise of all nations tongues and people more then can be numbred which infalliblie will gaine the crowne of glorie 56. An other exception you make against our Church because it doth not cōmunicate with all Christians as with your cōgregation for exāple Whereunto I answeare that to the Churches vniuersalitie communion with Heretickes ād Schismatiques is not necessarie but cōmunion with or in all Natiōs and this communion the Romā Church with the rest adherent hath With Heretiques wee will not communicate and doe herein follow the instruction of our Sauiour and Sainct Paule And accordīglie the Church in former tymes would not communicate with Arians Eunomians Nestorians or with Armenians Greciās Aethiopiās or others at such tyme as they were in errour Neither was this communion necessarie to the vniuersalitie of the Church as I said before because it is not necessarie that it communicate with all persones in the world but with all Nations Nor it is necessarie that the Churches communion be at once in all nations and so continue but that in the compasse of her tyme it be in all And thus is our Religion Catholique which hath bene in all Nations one tyme or other that hetherto haue bene Christian which can be truelie said of noe other and by her great power of conuerting Nations is going on to possesse the rest of the Nations that are on earth 56. Thirdly you except against the generalitie of some Councelles wherūto the Greeke Church then deuided would not come But this is noe hindrance to the cause for to the generalitie of a Councell noe more can be required possiblie for persones them the presence and consent of the Bysshopes in communion with the Catholique Church since Catholique Pastors not heretiques are to be heard followed and obaied in matters of faith and religion These doe succeed in the promise made to the Apostles and their successors to the worldes end and in them is the whole teaching authoritie of the Church-present vnto the tyme wherin they are whether they be more or not so many as were some age before In particular to that of the Grecians I answeare that their cōsent was not necessarie to the generalitie of the Coūcelles held in the tyme they liued in Schisme and Heresie and therefore without them the Councell was Oecumenicall for that Councell is Oecumenicall which doth include the authoritie of the presēt Catholique Church It is not requisite that all Bisshops which euer were should be raised againe to life to sitt in Councell nor that such as in after ages are to come should be borne afore their tyme to make a Councell generall neither is it necessarie to call in Heretiques of all sortes It is sufficiēt to call the Bysshopes of the Catholique communion then liuinge when the Councell is to be held The Grecians in the tyme of their Schisme were not of your religion as you haue heard from their owne mouthes when you offered vnion and in your owne iudgment they held heresie as that is of the procession of the holie Ghost from the Father onelie They returned also to the communion of the Catholique Church as you may see in the Councell of Lions and Florence where East and west agreed in doctrine against your heresie and before their Schisme they had bene in the communion of the Church a thousand yeares wel neere Of Indians and Armenians you know by this what I will saie and it is not necessarie to runne ouer the same againe 57. A fourth exception is that all nations be not at one time in the Church because some are Pagā some Hereticke And hence would you make a mā haue a scruple in reciting that part of his Creed wherin he doth professe to beleeue the Catholique Church then existent when he saies his Creede Notwithstanding this obiectiō the Creed was said in the Apostles tyme by such as were in their visible cōmunion and must and will be said as long as the world endures and he that saieth it if he beleeues Gods word and promise may securely ād must beleeue that still there is a Catholique Church which Church hath communion with all Natiōs though this communion in all the latitude be not existent at that tyme but some was before some is to follow after as the Church it selfe taken whollie is not existent all at one tyme but successiuelie to the worldes end it being the collectiō of all Catholiques which euer were are ād will be Orbis miratus est se fact◠esse Arianum Dial. con Lucif 58. A fift is made out of an exaggeration of Sainct Ieromes To the ground and occasion of the speach which was the act of the Bishops in the Councell I might āswer as S. Au. doth to the like ob made out of some words of S. Hilarius Quis nescit ilio tempore obscuris verbis multos parui sensus fuisse delusos vt putarent hoc credi ab Arianis
them This is a succession because they were not all at one tyme and a Catholique succession because the communion of Nations was with them and with their faith and their Decrees 61. Other obiections you haue against the truth of the doctrine which this Church doth maintaine But the chiefest of them are allready answeared in another place And hereafter I will proue at large that the Catholique Church onelie hath the assistance of the all teaching Spiritte and therfore cannot be condemned of errour by any meanes extant in the world whatsoeuer noe iudgment being of greater or of equall authoritie with hers by reason of the Spiritte which doth teach her all truth The second Conclusion The Christians in Communion with Vrbanus VIII are the Church of God THE THIRD BOOKE OF DIVINE ASSISTANCE THE FIRST CHAPTER Proouing diuine Assistance in the Catholike Church 1. HAVING declared sufficientlie which is the Church it followes next that wee speake of the diuine assistance in beleeuing and teaching which assistance the sonne of God hath promised vnto it Catholiques as I haue said before doe resolue their iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and the iudgment of the Church doth relie vppon the assistance of the holie Ghost by whose prouidence it is preserued from erring in the pâ—oposition of diuine faith This assistance in Church-proposition wee beleeue and that you must also grant and beleeue it I am now to prooue You will not denie that men are to be instructed trulie in faith an diuine matters for how shall they liue as Christians ought vnles they beleeue rightlie and how shall they beleeue rightlie if they be not well taught and instructed how shall they inuocate saith the Apostle in whome they haue not beleeued Rom. 10.14 and how shall they beleeue in whoÌ„ they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a preacher it cannot be For no man of himselfe is able to finde out or to discouer the mysteries of our faith the Trinitie the Incarnation of the Sonne of God the Scriptures and their meaning It is therefore necessarie that men be instructed in matters of faith 2. And since instruction is necessarie as wee also by experience know this instruction must be looked for in some Schoole and from some masters or instructors The question therefore comes presentlie about this teaching Schoole which and where it is that a man there may be instructed To this question the answeare is easie first it is not the companie of Athiests or Pagans for their doctrine and instruction is not holie and diuine Secondlie it is not the companie of Iewes for their doctrine is not Christian Thirdlie it is not the companie of confessed Heretiques therefore it is the Church for the Church is the Schoole of Iesus Christ and which this is I haue declared in the former booke This supposed I reason thus for diuine assistance 3. It belongs to the prouidence of allmightie God to assist that Schoole in which by his will and ordinance the whole world is to be instructed in diuine matters and Religion Therefore it belongs to Gods prouidence to Arg. 1 assist the Church for the Church is the said Schoole as I declared before The argument is cleere and needs no further confirmation but least you seeke to escape it if it be vrged by one that is no Scholler with some fonde distinction I note here that the Spirit doth assist to beleeue and to teach The first of these acts is in the vnderstanding and interior the second is publique or exterior and in the mouth The Spirit doth assist the Church both wayes that is to beleeue and to teach but the argument doth proceede here of assistance to the later to teach because faith according to S. Paul doth suppose instruction or teaching aÌ„d euery one should haue faith for without faith it is impossible to please God and he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Hebr. 11. Mar. 16. Moreouer you knowe that for resolution in diuine matters it is necessarie that a man knowe where to seeke instruction whom he may securelie followe in whose iudgment he may rest in whome and where the Spirit of God doth speake This is the thinge wee looke for and this thing is in noe other companie but the Schoole of Iesus Christe the Church 4. It may be you will say that a man desirous of instruction should come to you But this will not satisfie for what should a man haue done before Luther when Protestants were not nor your Religion thought vppon as I haue seene allreadie in the first booke He might haue gone ouer all the world to looke for your Church and lost his labour But deale plainlie with vs and declare your minde is there any congregation in the world whose instruction one may securelie fellowe or no if there be not what course should vnlearned men take to learne the truth shall they beleeue without preachers If there be which is it and whence hath it that it may be followed of it selfe or from the Spirit you can answeare nothinge but the Spirit and this Spirit not in Athiests nor in Iewes nor in confessed Heretiques but in the Church And thus much for those who seeke instruction 5. I prooue secondlie this assistance by the necessitie of a Iudge to determine controuersies Arg. 2 in matter of Religion Since the Scripture is obscure in many places and since Heresies do and must arise in the world it is necessarie that there be some Visible meanes able and sufficient to determine controuersies which meanes can be no other but the proposition and iudgmeÌ„t of the Church For being visible and intelligent able to heare examine and define the controuersies it must needs consist of men not of meere Spirits or of insensible creatures and if it consist of men these men must not be Athiests or enemies to the Christian doctrine such as are Pagans Iewes and confessed Heretiques and therefore they must be the Church or that part of it which is to teach The iudge of controuersies therefore is the Church Whence it followes that the holie Spirit doth assist her in this act of determining controuersies in matter of faith directing her vnderstaÌ„ding to coÌ„ceaue the meaning of Gods word and preseruing her from errour in the proposition of it This discourse you cannot denie with any shewe of probabilitie for there is no meanes to make an end of controuersies among men if the iudgment of the Church be neglected or be not certaine aÌ„d infallible if the Spirit of truth be not in the Church it is in none at all if it doth not teach the Church it doth teach none if it doth not direct the Church to vnderstand Gods word it directeth none if it doth not assist the Church when she for the generall good of the Christian world doth determine a controuersie of faith it doth assist none at all for all the promise made by our Sauiour Iesus Christ of assistaÌ„ce is made vnto
the Church in later tymes did conforme her iudgment to the iudgment of the church in former tymes and esteeme it infalliblie This is true at all tymes from the Apostles to this daie therfore all the Church of all this tyme is against your affirmation and your affirmation against the Spirit of all this Church pastors and people 〈◊〉 and learned auncient and moderne 53. Fourthlie 4. Confir If all Christians be warranted by Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and true God to heaâ—e the Church and to 〈…〉 iudgment then is it vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though not fundamentall in your sense be false and coÌ„tradict the eternall truth because God being truth and goodnes obligeth not men to erre and to contradiction But all Christians are so warranted Luk. 10. v. 16. He which heareth you heareth me he which contemneth you contemneth me It is therfore vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though such as you call not fundamentall be false therfore it hath by Gods prouidence the assistance of the Spiritt of truth in euerie such generall resolution 54. Fiftlie If the whole Church theÌ„ all Bisshopes all Fathers though consenting all together aÌ„d teaching vniformely may haue erred in matters of faith which are not of your fundamentalles 5. Confir Whence it followes that whatsoeuer they haue said or beleeued or receaued aboue those fewe fundameÌ„talles may be false aÌ„d consequentlie nothing nothing at all in matter of faith is certaine but onelie those fewe fundamentalles Why then may not the rest of deuinitie yea all the rest of the scripture be false and why may not old damned heresies howsoeuer in the primitiue tyme abhorred be true If you offer to answere that you â—â—owe certainlie those things to be false and the rest of the scripture to be true I replie that you doe either pretend to know this by the spiritte and therby you admitte what before in your distinctioÌ„ you denied or you pretend to know it by your witte and then you entangle your selfe more in in the bryers for how will you make it euident that your witte cannot erre in these matters if all other wittes might haue erred 55. Hauing lighted here on the consideration of the fonde esteeme you haue of your owne witte aboue the world I begin to see that you affect a place farre aboue the qualitie of your person though this disorder in affection be in a manner secrette from your selfe You iudge and determine controuersies in matters not fundamentall as you speake and this men see aÌ„d your forwardnes herein hath enforced me to this answeare Now you take this office of determining these controuersies froÌ„ the Church as wee haue seene oft before aÌ„d if you would acknowledge it to be there I neede write no more of this matter This throne was high but you affect a higher yet which I shew for either in this matter of determining these controuersies you giue place to the Spiritt as to the iudge or you doe not if you doe the Spirittes holie assistance is exteÌ„ded further then to your fundamentalles if you doe not you sitte in the throne aÌ„d iudge for you determine them against vs. Let Christians tell me now whether you vsurpe the place or not 57. Sixtlie your errour is fuÌ„dameÌ„tall 6. Confirmâ— therfore the opposite which the Churche beleeue this a fundamentall truth And consequentlie in your prâ—ciples you must coÌ„fesse that she doth not erre in it for you say she erreth not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talls That your errour is fundameÌ„tall I prooue because that errour is fundamentall which is the ground of infinite errours but yours is the grouÌ„d of infinite errours because it takes away the certaiÌ„tie froÌ„ all Gods word and all deuinitie those fewe pointes onelie excepted which you call fundamentall 58. Moreouer to touch your fundamentalles also 7. Confirm It takes away all certaintie in them first because you leaue noe meanes to knowe which they be and secondlie because you leaue noe meanes to know they be diuinelie reuealed if it were knowne which in particular they al were for the authoritie of the Church proposeth equallie the whole Scripture and therfore if it sufficeth for any chapter or point it sufficeth for euery chapter and euerie point And the Spiritte of God did equallie direct the writer in all and it is Gods word all and therfore if the Spiritts direction or Gods authoritie serue to warrant some it serues to warrant all and if it be not able to warrant all it is vnable to warrant any at all 59. You thinke I haue done now but harke further Your assertion doth scandalize the Christian world if it may be scandalized for you take away all certaintie from the word of God in all pointes and partes but some twelue propositions which you call fundamentall 8. Confirm denying that there is at all any meanes to know certainlie that the rest is Gods word This I proue and I take the Gospell of S. Iohn or to declare it more fullie I take all the Bible and argue thus Either the Spiritte of God doth assist his Church to know certainlie that all in the Bible ouer and aboue your fuÌ„dameÌ„tall pointes is the word of God or it doth not Make your choise If it doth not there is no way to know certainely that it is the word of God for men of themselues and without Gods assistance all might erre especiallie in obscure matters as those are and in this especiallie which is to know whether God spake those wordes or noe If it doth the field is ours for euerie thing there is not one of the fundamentalles 60. The same argumente may be made of the sense of any place for either the place is fundamentall and such are fewe by your accompt or the place is not fundamentall and then excluding the assistance of the Spiritte you haue noe waie to be assured of the sense 61. Let vs oÌ„ to the triall of this argumeÌ„t OpeÌ„ your Bible turne to the first Chapter of Genesis and reade the first verse In the begining God created heaueÌ„ and earth Of this verse I demauÌ„d eight things First whether you be certaine that it is the word of God and how SecoÌ„dlie whether it be a fundamentall place or be not Thirdlie how you doe know certainlie that it is or that it is not fundamentall Fourthlie whether there be meanes to knowe certainlie the sense if neede require Fiftlie what are the meanes which may assure men of the sense Sixtlie whether there be any meanes to knowe certainlie whether in these words be more literall seÌ„ses theÌ„ one Seuenthlie whether the assistance of the Spiritte be or be not necessarie to the certaine knowledge or assurance of these things Eightlie whether this assistance be promised to the Church or to others out of it as to Heretiques and pagans These eight things I demaund about that verse and when you
all did which you will neuer prooue as long as the Bible is extant If you reade Exodus in the two and thitieth chapter you shall finde that when Moyses had saide if any man be our Lords let him ioyne to me there gathered vnto him all the Sonnes of Leuie Exod. 32.26 And these were no small company as you may gather out of the booke of Numbers Num. 3. v. 39. Next you say Elias did complaine that he was left alone This makes a shewe and is repeted ouer and ouer in your books and your pulpittes The truth is that there were at the same tyme diuers in Israel where this Prophet was 3. Kings 19. v. 18. Rom. 11.4 which bowed not before Baal of which number God said to Elias he would reserue seauen thousand And at the same tyme allso in the kingdome of Iuda there was publique profession of the true religion at Ierusalem Wherefore you cannot prooue by this place that the Church failed and was not visible on the earth if wee would graunt you as you haue seene wee neede not that it was not visible in the kingdome of Israel at that tyme. Neither was it necessarie to the visibilitie of it that it should be still visible in both kingdomes one of thē onelie doth suffice for this purpose in case all in the other had forsaken God Let vs now come to the Catholique and Christian Church 86. In the second argument you taxe the Apostles 1. Rainold◠and first accuse S. Peeter of false doctrine because he was reprehended by S. Paul Then further you condemne the Apostles all of errour against faith in not beleeuīg the resurrection To that of S. Peeter which old Heretiques obiected it was answeared fourteene hundred yeers agoe that it was a fault of conuersation which he was taxed for not of doctrine The fault is set downe by S. Paul in these words Gal. 2.12 for before certaine came frō Iames he Peeter did eate with the Gentiles but when they were come he withdrewe and separated himselfe fearing them that were of the circumcision This cariage of S. Peeter S. Paul did repre-to Iudaize his making others by his example hend and was in this But here is no false doctrine maintained ād published by him much lesse by the Apostles all taught and generallie by the Church beleeued whereof wee speake now In the conuersatiō of the Popes which you taxe by this occasion there may haue bene faults allso for they were men but from them in generall Councells there hath come no false doctrine nor euer will 87. The second parr of your obiection hath no difficultie because wee knowe that the Apostles did learne the particulars of faith by degrees as you may obserue easilie in the Gospell ād their slownes to beleeue the point mentioned but not any errour maintained by them for Christian doctrine was reprehended Neither was the all-teaching Spirit as yet come our Sauiour not being ascended who therefore did instruct thē in the matter his owne selfe Now the thinge that wee defend is not that the Apostles beleeued all in particular from the first tyme they were called or that in conuersation nothing euer hapned amisse in any one of them but that after the comming of the holie Ghost the Catholique Church did neuer beleeue or teach errour in matter of faith which I would haue you to read ouer and ouer that you mistake not the matter but argue to the purpose 88. A third argument which I thought good to put in this place touches the resolution of our faith into the Church which resolution seemes not firme because it is made into authoritie not diuine To this I answeare that the authoritie of the Church alone if you consider it apart not adding thereunto the authoritie of the Assisting Spirit is greater then any other authoritie in the world that is distinct from the diuine authoritie And this by reason of an infinite multitude of learned and holy men which are in it of infinite miracles which doe giue testimonie of a greatnes which nature wonders at of the strange vnion of worlds of people in one obscure faith with a constancie which neither flattery nor feare can shake which vnion doth acknowledge no cause in nature since nature inclines not so constantlie to communion ād vniforme iudgment in things not found in nature as God incarnate the sonne in substance and power all one with his Father ād yet distinct in person and the like The authoritie I say of the Church by reason of these and such other motiues is the greatest of all authorities among men in so much that no other is any way equall to it and therfore none able to drawe a wise man from it 89. Yet this alone is not the thing wherevnto wee do make the last resolution of our faith But wee make it into the testimonie of allmightie God in the Church This testimonie doth originallie moue our faith The sunne is allwayes visible in it selfe but cannot be seene of vs vnles it be in the Orbe aboue our hemisphere and when it is risen the eleuation doth not principallie moue our eie but the sunne in that eleuation doth moue it to see both sunne and heauen and all other things which the light comes vppon So Gods eternall word of it selfe is euer apt to moue and to be seene though wee cannot discouer it with the eie of faith vnles it be exposed or proposed to vs in the firmament of the Church or some other way equiualent But if it be so applied our faith discerns the word and the Church proposing it and all other things that are reuealed Wherein the Church-proposition doth concurre instrumentallie with subordination to the Word of God and of them both in seuerall kinds our faith depends 90. Wee resolue therefore into authoritie truely diuine into the diuine Spirit teaching in the Church Or if you will haue a longer way which in effect is all one wee do resolue into the present Church assisted with the Spirit This present Church doth resolue into the Church in the former age assisted by the Spirit that againe into a former age ād so to the Apostles they resolue into Christ Where you finde the like as before that is the eternall and increated word mouing by way of humane speach and the Apostles faith depending though diuerslie on both at once that is on the eternall word as on the originall motiue and on the word of his mouth as on the Application 91. If you would haue yet another waie take the motiues of faith all together or the collection of them as applications and the prime veriry as formall obiect and you haue all that you iustlie can desire In the collectiō of motiues I doe include the whole Church these sixteene hundred yeares and the Apostles and Iesus Christ as he appeared and taught and all the miracles done in cōfirmation of the Christian Catholique faith the conuersion of the world from bad
to good which caÌ„ be from no bad cause the prophecies of the old and newe Testament and whatsoeuer els learned men vse to bringe to this purpose And taking in this collection all that which is distinct from the increated authoritie of allmightie God I call it the condition circumstance or application of the formall obiect which formall obiect is the diuine veritie reuealing Further I must not goe because the diuine veritie is infinite and therfore able to moue any vnderstanding and the circumstances are beyond all exceptioÌ„ to warrant the prudeÌ„ce of my choise I haue vsed some Schoole termes in this answeare but you must pardon me for it is a Schoole point as you knowe and fit for Schollers onelie 92. A fourth exception is that you seeke the will of God more sincerely and therefore enioy the assistance which wee doe not because wee relie onely on men This argument is allreadie answeared in effect wee depend on men proposing and as instrumentall or ministeriall causes vnder Iesus Christ the greate Pastor And sure the Apostles on whome the primitiue Church depended were men allso But principallie wee depend on Iesus Christ and the holie Ghost assisting in aÌ„d by the Church For your sincere seeking of the truth it is a friuolous pretense since you do not take the meanes by God ordained to finde it Iesus Christ hath left it in the Church and if you would finde it you should looke it there Your pretence of prayer and the guift of interpretation and conference of places are trickes onelie to delude fooles for all wise meÌ„ knowe that Christ hath bestowed all helpes necessary vppon the Church and that in the Church are the power of interpretation and sanctitie and generallie all the guifts of the holy Ghost Wherefore you are first to prooue that you are the Church before you challenge the Spirit and his guifts till then wee number you amoÌ„ge those who come in at the windowe to rob and steale the soules out of men and indeuour allso as much as lies in you to rob the Church of God of her endowments 93. For the sanctitie of our Church wherewith you would equall yours I remitte you to Baronius Martyrologe and desire to see the like catalogue from your holie number But who knowes not that it is proper to the Catholique Church to breede Saints and that thence are those which out of all Nations tribes and tongues are chosen to raigne with Iesê° Christ Yet are not all in this Church truelie Saincts there are degrees of incorpotion and vnion to the heade and members Some are vnited by faith and charitie some by faith and exterior communion but want Charitie and they haue some kinde of motioÌ„ and influence from Christ the heade for without him none can beleeue a right and they are part of the great mysticall body the Church Yet they want the principall vnion which vnion will be perfect and constant in heauen where the Church shall see the deitie of the sonne of God But here good and bad are mixt yet so that the Church militant shall neuer be without many good and holie men according to the Scripture This is the couenant which I will make with the house of Israel saith our Lord Ierem. 30. v. 33. speaking of the Christian Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in the hart of them will write it and will be to them a God and they shall be my people Ezech. 37. v 27. And in Ezechiel I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer 94. If you aske me whether the Church may be said to sinne since there be sinners in the Church I answeare no. If any sinne it is not by meanes of the Church but contrarie to her direction and Spirit And if any erre it is not by her meanes but contrarie to her Spirit and proposition So that neither the sinne nor the errour of particular men can iustlie be attributed vnto the Church since they worke not in those cases by the common iudgment and direction of the Church but by their owne priuate apprehensions and affections contrary to the Churches will and rule As when one in a well-instituted common-wealth doth secretlie steale and murder it is his priuate action it is not the action of the common wealth but flatlie against the will and lawes of it This onely I will note in this matter that euery mortall sinne doth not destroy all incorporatioÌ„ and therefore a man may be in mortall sinne and yet in the Church for he which beleeueth doth participate some kinde of life though imperfect as I said before Neither is it necessarie that in each part all vitall powers be for a mans foote doth participate life but cannot see nor heare nor imagine as doth the heade 95. In the next place insteede of an argumeÌ„t I note your vanitie in heaping things together to winne the vulgar Your silken discourses vnles they be flowred with histories of Popes Friars and Monkes are not gaudie and therefore this embrodery must not be wanting I will not loose tyme to rehearse the particulars but in generall answeare thus First if amonge twelue Apostles pict out by our Sauiour Iesus Christ one was naught and proued an Apostata it can be no meruaile if amonge more then two hundred Popes elected by men some fewe did amisse Neither can their faults preiudice Papall authoritie aÌ„d the generall doctrine of the Church or redound vnto it more then did the Apostasie of Iudas preiudice Apostolicall power and christianitie or redound vnto the rest You should haue considered rather that many Bishops of the Roman See are knowne Saincts 96. I answeare secondlie for Friars that their rule is good holie and beyond all iust exception and therefore if any not conforming themselues to this rule by weaknes faile and liue amisse the profession is no more to be coÌ„demned for it then is Christianitie for the wicked conuersation of many that professe it And the stories of Friars which you haue are but fewe some dozen peraduenture were they a thousand the matter were not greate whereas in all the Catholique world are Friars And touching Monkes it is the same their Rule is holie and their conuersation such as crownes and scepters haue ben left for to learne it 33. milliaÌ„ AbbatiaruÌ„ 14. millia Prioratuum Genebr an 524. Ordinis Praedicatorum feruntur fuisse 4143. coenobia id an 1216. Franciscanorum suo tempore 90. millia fuisse scribit Sabellicus Ennead dec 9. l. 9. their institution hath bred many Saincts and their Order hath ben so genenerally spred that they haue had many thousand monasteries at a time Among so many to haue happened a few disorders is no wonder but to thinke that your stories put case they were in parte true which is not worth examination can preiudice the rule and institution is very childish 97. Of Catholiques in generall I haue spokeÌ„ all readie they were not all saincts
doctrine and her Spiritte 126. Awake man for shame awake and looke aboute consider what you doe here is a faire waie before you and you like a bedlome runne out of it ouer shoes ouer bootes ouer head and eares imagining notwithstanding that you walke aboue heauen and that euerie steppe is on a starre The Church the Councells the Fathers Apostles Euangelists all are in errour all vnder your feete whilst your chariot is rowld vniformelie aboue the Sunne and heauen takes newe lawes from your allmightie witte I will ascend into heauen Isay 14. v. 13.14 aboue the starres of God I will exalt my throne I will sit in the mount of the Testament in the sides of the North. I will ascend aboue the height of the clowdes I will be like the highest So he that wēt before you if you prick on apace you will ouertake him for he is yet at his Inne ād there to stay an eternall night That past you may iogge on together I loue your person I wish your saluatiō but hate your heresie and make no greate account of that which you most adore your learnīg In the Schoole of errour be manie good witts There the Manichees and Ariās ād Caluinists haue their order if there be any order where no man will be second Aristotles Logicke and Tullies Rhetoricke could not make of superstition true Religion I am not in loue with Hell though in it be greate Schollers the Foulest there was once the Fairest amōge creatures for endowments or nature and strength of vnderstanding I knowe that such as did applaud his cōceipt were partners in his fall I knowe too that all the knowledge of all Pagans of all Heretiques of all aduersaries put together doth not equall the knowledge of the Church It is the Schoole of Iesus Christ who taught a thing worthie of eternall admiration a poore fisherman and on the suddaine too to speake all tongues I speake it to the confusion of such aduersaries of our Sauiour as glory in their skill in others language and do repeate againe to the Rhetoricians he suddainlie made the same man so good an Oratour that he conuerted vnto his Masters doctrine in the face of his aduersaries Act. 2 three thousand with one Sermon he so instructed his disciples in deuinitie that they conuinced Greece the worlds Academie for wit and learning persuaded Rome in the flourishing tyme of her power though she imploied all her force to frustrate their proceeding and in fine to relate many wonders in a word conuerted all the world to beleeue a man God to beleeue a most obscure and witt-transcending Creede In this Schoole wee doe learne here wee are assured of the truth The manifestation of the Spirit is giuen here To one the word of wisdome 1. Cor. 12. v. 8.9.10 To another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit To another faith in the same Spirit To another the grace of doing cures in one Spirit To another the working of miracles To another prophecie To another discerning of Spiritts To another kinds of tongues To another interpretations of languages Can you giue these things can you teach this Schoole in this sort as the Spirit doth or if you cannot as without infinite blasphemie you may not presume you can why do you endeuour to thrust out the holie Ghost and intrude your selfe into the place whie do you thus oppose the diuine ordinance and openlie wronge the sonne of God Auant Heretiques Iude v. 2. clouds without water borne about with winde raging waues of the Sea foming out your owne confusions enemies to the Church to the Scripture and to God auant Wee need not your instruction wee haue better Masters Without you the Church was planted the world conuerted the truth maintained without you the Schooles are full of Schollers the world of Martyrs heauen of Saincts without you the Church hath stoode and doth stand and so will do still The third Conclusion All Controuersies in matters of Religion are to be decided by the Spirit in the Church THE FOVRTH BOOKE WHEREIN SOME PARTIticular Controuersies are briefly discussed THE FIRST CHAPTER Of the Primacie 1. YOVR generall arguments being dispatched in the former booke I shall finde little danger or difficultie in the encounter of the rest of the disordered route and may iustlie in your owne principles contemne them all as I said before in the like occasion and must repeate it oft For whence is their strength from witte or from authoritie If from witt you must not thinke amisse of me if I preferre the witt and iudgment of many worlds of learned mē before yours which hath declared it selfe vnreasonable hetherto especiallie since all men be lyars to turne the point of your owne weapon vppon your selfe and you no God nor Angell but a man If your argumēts haue their streingth from authoritie either this authoritie is of men and this you haue refused as vncertaine because all mē are lyars and you haue laboured not onelie to disgrace the Church of later tymes and the Fathers in their age but allso to take the Apostles triping and therefore their authoritie moues not you Or this authoritie is of God in holie Scripture where he deliuers according to your distinction two sorts of points the one is of fundamentall points and in these you confesse that the Church neither doth nor can erre and therfore the ensuing controuersie is not about them as for example the Incarnation the passion and the rest which you call fundamentall The other sort of points or textes in the Bible are as you call them not-fundamentall and these you do not hold for certaine which howsoeuer you dissemble the matter is cleere for in your principles there are no meanes from God or man to knowe certainlie that they are indeede parts of Gods word or to knowe which is their true meaning Not the witte of man alone for that may erre especiallie in such an obscure point as whether this text this verse be Gods word and not the word of a man Not the Spirit for that doth assist onelie to fundamentalls you saie and these you say are not of them you must answer this heere before you goe further and knowe that of the certainty of consequences it is the same Moreouer since diuine assistance to the vnderstanding of the Scripture depends vppon Gods promise and since this promise is made vnto the Church to the Apostles and their successors you are first to prooue that you are the Church before any man is to beleeue you haue the assistance ād interprete right for arguments out of Scripture prooue nothing if they misse the sense of God and be grounded in a wronge sense For these and the like reasons I might haue forborne to make further answeare to your exceptions Notwithstanding to giue you content I will descende vnto the particular consideration of the chiefest 2. First therefore to make your waie into the Church there to spoile and aulter
what you list you set vppon the Pastor It is defined in the Councell of Florence that the Bisshop of Rome is successor to sainct Peeter and that he hath receaued in him sainct Peeter from our Sauiour power to feede and to gouerne the whole Church This is one of the things which you cannot abide a Superiour you thinke is a heauie burden ād therefore you would shake him of The Apostles say you were according to Cyprian equall in honour and dignitie Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Ieron adu Iou. Leo ep 84. The strength of the Church was equallie established on them all in the opinion of Hierom and with Leo they had a likenes in honour This is the first onset wherein you shewe neither skill nor iudgment You had but latelie discharged all the Fathers for vnable men and therefore it was an vnaduised part in you now to summō them to fight vnder your colours for you may iustlie feare that in tyme of tryall they will declare themselues to be ō our side who haue euer reuerēced and defended thē ād not on yours where they and the Church authoritie and the Spirit of Gods Church are dis-esteemed and contemned 3. But I answeare that before S. Peeter was made Pastor the Apostles were all equall after he was made Pastor they were not equall S. Peeter was then chiefe ād Superior The rest of the Apostles had power giuen them to preach the Gospell to forgiue sinnes to binde ād loose to doe miracles but onelie S. Peeter had the prerogatiue of Pastor as the Scripture doth euidentlie declare And heereby he was otherwise compared vnto the flocke then any of the rest ◠c. 6. n. 52 with whom he had all the forenamed but excelled in this that they being Legates or Apostles onely in regard of their generall iurisdiction he was Pastor of the Church This is the doctrine of those Fathers which you haue cited as you may see in their books and to saue you the labour of looking further I will shewe it in the very same places you alleage The Church saith S. Ierom is founded on Peeter S. Ieron adu Iouin ◠1. though in another place it be donne vpon them all and all receiue the keyes of heauen and the strenght of the Church be equallie establisshed vppon all These things were equallie donne before S. Peeter was made Pastor they were all equallie made Apostles and foundations and had equallie the keyes but afterwards of these Apostles thus equall one was created Pastor the rest remaining as they were who remained therefore vnequall to this one which was Peeter 10. 21. as you know by the Gospell of S. Iohn and in regard hereof S. Hierome doth adde immediately to the words but now cited yet saith he for this one of the twelue is chosen that a HEADE being constituted the occasion of schisme might be taken away Capite cōstituto So now they are vnequall because one is made heade S. Cyprian doth teach the same in the place you cite Although saith he after his resurrection he our Sauiour giues equall power saying as my father sent me so do send you S. Cyp. de vnit eccl take the holy Ghost c. where the power of remitting sinnes is equallie bestowed on all yet that he might declare vnitie he by his authoritie disposed the ORIGEN of the same Vnitie BEGINING FROM ONE * Quamuis Apostolis omnibus c. tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnam Cathedram constituit vnitatis eiusdē originem ab vno incipientem sua authoritate disposuit Hoc erant vtique caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis sed exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur Primatus Petro datur vt vna Christi Ecclesia Cathedra vna monstretur S. Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Heere S. Cyprian doth shew what course Our blessed Sauiour tooke to keepe manifest vnitie in his Church and among the Apostles themselues He our Sauiour disposed being must wise an Origen Roote or cause of Vnitie which Vnitie he would haue in his Church and amongst all the Parts of it This Origē or Roote was not a multitude equally gouerning the Church but it was ONE that is Peeter whom our Sauiour made Pastor of his Church and vppō whō he built it as S. Cyp. noted a little before and therefore he saith he disposed the Origē of this Vnitie begining frō ONE So that wee haue in this very place the Primacie of S. Peeter in that he is the Roote and Origen of Vnitie in the whole Body wherein the Apostles were and allso the reason of the Institution of this Primacie or Origen in One. In another place he doth specifie it more particularly saying that The Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie is the CHAIRE that is the Pastorall Authoritie Nauigare audent ad Petri Cathedrā atque ecclesiam Principalē vnde vnitas sacerdotalis exorta est li. 1. ep 3. Vna Ecclesia à Christo Domino nostro super petram origine vnitates ratione fundata l. 1. ep 12. of Peeter And now I hope you wil beleeue it is his mind heering it out of his owne mouth Againe he saith that the Church is founded on a rocke in the Origē of Vnitie And that the Church is founded on Peeter which place S. Augustine doth allso alleage in his booke against the Donatists and in the same place which I must note heereby the way he atributeth expreslie the Primacie to Peeter Lastlie S. Cyprian saith the See of Rome is the Mother or Matrice and Roote of the Catholique Church Now if S. Peeter be the foundation or Rocke of the Catholique Church and the Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie wee may conclude that he is as S. Ierom said the Heade S. Leo doth teach very well that their election was equall they had many things and among the rest Apostolicall dignitie equallie bestowed on them but afterwards one was particularly made Pastor of the Church the Roote of Priestlie Vnitie and Superior to the * Cyprianus in Ep ad Quintum ita loquitur nam nec Petrus inquit quem primum Dominus eleget super quem a dificauit Ecclesiam suam cum secum Paulus disceptaret c. S. Aug. l 2 con Donat. c. 1. Apostolum Petrum in quo Primatus Apostolorum tam excellenti gratia praeeminet c. Ibid. Hortatos esse vt Ecclesiae Catholicae Matricem Radicem agnoscerent tenerent S. Cyp. l. 4. Ep. 8. vide eundem l. 1. ep 3. l. 4. ep 9. rest Vni tamen datum est vt caeteris praeemineret S. Leo. ep 84. S. Leo serm 3. de Anniuers Ass die qui praeponatur which donne they were not in ALL respects equall His words are Among the most blessed Apostles in similitude of honour was a certaine DISTINCTION OF POWER and whereas the Election of all was equall to one was granted that he should be EMINENT ABOVE
you cannot speede there you endeuoure by the Nicene Councell to prooue the Bishop of Alexandria to be thus equall to the Roman and that the Romā Bisshop was there limited by the Councell as well as others I haue looked on that canon but see nothing for your purpose The Bisshop of Alexandria is not said there to be equall to the Roman Bishop neither is there any speach of limiting the Roman to the west as you pretend The words are Conc. Nicen can 6. Let the auncient custome be kept in Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bisshop of Alexandria haue power ouer all these because the Roman Bisshop hath such a custome Here the Popes custome is a reason whie the Bisshop of Alexandria is to haue power ouer Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis whereby is insinuated that the Bisshop of Alexandria therein depended on the Popes accustomed manner of gouermēt which argues a superioritie in the Pope not an equalitie in the other Your explicatiōs you must prooue to be text if you will haue me to beleeue thē Meane while neither in this Councell can you finde any thing for your cause vnles wee childishlie will take a glosse for the text and giue you equall authoritie with a generall Coūcell in assertiōs and decrees If the Romā Bisshop had there bene with his owne consent limited to the west for exercise of Patriarchal authoritie I would āsweare that he sustaining diuers offices in one and the same person might be more limited in regard of the one then of the other his Patriarchall power might be contained with in the west though his Pastorall Iurisdiction reached ouer the whole Church as man hath the power of seeing restrained vnto coloured Obiects but his power of vnderstanding reaches further to the whole latitude of being 11. Failing againe this way you stand still like a stocke and refuse to acknowledge any successor to sainct Peeter in his generall care and Pastorall office because you cannot see what necessitie there is of a Successor It seemes you are growne dull with disputing and would heare me rather speake I am contented A Successor in that office was ād is necessarie first because the Church at all tymes needs a generall Pastor ād visible Foundatiō as well as it did in the begining since therefore the Christiā Church is to endure till the worlds ēd Visible Pastor such as sainct Peeter was the Pastor ād visible Foūdatiō must likewise endure to confirme and to direct it secondlie Peeter in person could not feede ād rule all the sheepe of Christ from his tyme till the words end our Sauiour therefore prouiding the Church of a Pastor that might feede ād rule thē did in the persō of S. Peeter vnderstand his Successors in that office that so the sheepe might allwayes haue a Pastor to rule and feede them Otherwise the greatest part of the flocke that is all after S Peeters dayes till the worlds end should haue no generall Pastor here on earth though they wanted him no lesse yea more then did the Christians in sainct Peeters time Thirdlie the best forme of gouerment is Monarchicall something tempered with Aristocracie and the more Nations are added to the Church the more neede of a Monarch One is vndeuided in himselfe his iudgment and his principles are the same but a multitude is diuided ād the greater the multitude the more varietie of iudgmēt the greater the varietie of inclinatiōs dispositiōs affectiōs ād iudgment is the more neede there is of a cause of Vnitie to keepe them in One which would neuer be if euery mā freelie might chose his way and be a rule vnto himselfe Wee see this in Heretiques who hauing no visible cause of vnion in matter of faith doe runne sundry wayes Arius one Nestorius another and so to the very last Philosophers ould and moderne haue gonne seuerall waies and filld the Schooles with questions which will neuer be decided their iudgments being directed by no One. Seuerall Nations haue diuers lawes according to the different opinions of their Rulers and Lawe-makers the like would be in England if each Shire were independent of another and of a Monarch or common couerner In religion allso each Minister would haue his way Now the Church was to haue it it all Nations and in them is infinite varietie of iudgment 10. 10. id c. 21. wherefore our Sauiour to containe them all in one did ordaine a Monarch there shall be made one Fould and one Pastor Peeter feede my sheepe Act. 20. And tempering this Monarchie with Aristocracie he putte Bysshops allso to rule the Church Fourthlie it was necessarie that in the Church there should be one to attend generallie to the whole to call generall Councells to be President there to containe the multitude of Bishops in Vnitie and to haue a care principallie of the Churches generall affaires which care our Sauiour gaue to sainct Peeter as an Ordinarie Office in that he made him Pastor of his Fold the Christian Church and if it were necessarie then in the Apostles daies much more it is now Fiftly Pastors are to continue in the Church till the end of the world by the doctrine of S. Paul therefore the chiefe Pastor is likewise to continue which could not be in one person therefore in diuers If you say that our Sauiour himselfe is chiefe Pastor Ephes 4. I replie that amonge visible Pastors one is chiefe though subordinate vnto Christ and he is to remaine as well as the rest of the clergie and his existence is necessarie for the Gouerment of the Church Our Sauiour doth continuallie teach and baptize but by others and so doth he cōtaine the Church in Vnity and gouerne by subordinate meanes ordained and instituted for this purpose as God lights the world with the Sūne though if he had so pleased he could haue donne it otherwise 12. What you pretend about Election of a Successor is not hard the Church designes the Person and then he receaues power from our Sauiour in vertue of the first institution as man disposeth matter in the generation of a man and nature presents it so prepared vnto the Creator who by vertue of the first institution of mankinde inspires a sowle which the generant could not make It is true that the Churches action is hindered sometymes by Schisme or other meanes as mans generation is likewise hindred otherwhile but such hindrances are in tyme remoued and the Successor designed Neither is the Succession interrupted properlie in this tyme because this Election is a continuation of it So that all you haue said about the tyme of Schisme might haue bene spared because then the Church was busie in determining a successor though she were hindred sometymes more sometymes lesse according to the difficulties which did occurre 13. To conclude your opposition in this matter you take vpon you not to knowe who doth succede sainct Peeter But if you had lookt aboute you could not haue doubted First because
noe Bishop in the Church euer yet was estemed or did pretende to be aboue the Roman Bishop since therefore S. Peeter was putte in charge of the flocke of Christ ād made Pastor of the Church ād since this office of generall Pastor doth remaine it followes that the Bishop of Rome is ād still was he because he is and euer was confessedlie the first Bishop in the Church Secondlie the Pope of Rome by your confession hath exercised the Office of Generall Pastor of the Church these thousād yeares ād by the Coūcells the same is cleere neither was there any other all this tyme who did exercise or take on him that Office not the Bisshop of Antioch nor of Constantinople for these Bisshops and the most ancient Councells as the Nicene Constantinopolitan and others did acknowledge Rome before those Sees Neither was the See without a Successor all this tyme as I haue shewed before because the Pastor and Foundation is necessarie to the Flocke and Building therefore the Roman was and is he 14. Thirdly the fathers of the aūciēt Church as S. Augustine sainct Ierom sainct Cyprian sainct Ireneus and others affirme cleerelie that the Roman Bisshop is sainct Peeters Successor S. Hieron ad Damas S. Aug. ep 162. S Cypr. ep 55. Optatus cont Donat l. 2. S. Iren. l. 3. c. 3. Tenet ista sancta sede gubernacula regendarum cunct orbis Ecclesiarum Theod. ep ad Ren p◠Ro. S. Leo ep 84. Sainct Ierom calles that See S. Peeters Chaire adding that the Church is built on that rocke sainct Augustine putts a Catalogue of the Bisshops there first Peeter then Linus c. and saith that the Principallitie of the Apostolicall Chaire hath euer flourished in the Church of Rome sainct Cyprian calles it allso sainct Peeters Chaire and the principall Church whence Priestlie vnitie hath come The like hath Optatus sainct Ireneus doth adde that for the more powerfull principalitie of that church it is necessarie that all Churches haue recourse vnto it That holie seate saith Theodorette holds the sterne of gouerning the Churches of all the world sainct Leo knewe this in practise but heare his words It is by great order prouided that all should not claime all things to themselues but in euery Prouince should be some who should haue the prime sentēce amonge the bretheren and againe others placed in greater Citties should vndergoe greater care by whom the care of the Vniuersall Church should come to the one seate of sainct Peeter Fourthlie this is the iudgment of the Church acknowledging in the Roman Bisshop authoritie and power to call to moderate and to approoue generall Councells and it is declared in the great Lateran Councell that the Roman Church hath by Gods disposition the principalitie of ordinarie power ouer all the Churches Conc. Lat. sub Innoc. 3. c. 5. And finallie both East and West haue defined it in the Councell of Florence Cōc Flor. defin Wee define say the Fathers there that the holie Apostolique See and Bisshop of Rome hath the Primacie ouer the whole world and that the Roman Bisshop is the Successor of Blessed Peeter Prince of the Apostles and the true Vicar of Christ and heade of the whole Church and Father and master of all Christians and that vnto him in S. Peeter is giuen by our Lord Iesus Christ full power to feede rule and gouerne the vniuersall Church The same both Armenian Aethiopiā Vide Cocc ◠1. l. 7. art 4. 5. 6. 7 8. Russite and Assiriā Christiās haue acknowledged So that for this Primacie of the See Apostolique wee haue the Fathers Testimonie Theologicall Arguments Definitions of Generall Councells and the Testimonie of the Spirit in them the worlds consent and Gods word THE THIRD CHAPTER The Bishop of Rome President in Generall Councells 15. YOur next pretense is that the Pope hath no title to be President in generall Councells or to call or approoue them though he hath practised these things now of late Before I answere to this argument to shewe more cleerelie wherein the force of it doth lie you are with me to obserue two things the first is that there are two kinds of calling a Councell One is Eclesiasticall in way and forme of ordination the other is Temporall in way of execution The Question is of the former which is prīcipall ād wee are in it to see whether any man in the world hath such authoritie to call a Councell so as the Bishops are in regard of that calling bound to come The second obseruation is that one may haue the place of President in his owne name or in the name and place of another to whom principallie it belongeth and this Presidencie may be either to some temporall end as to keepe exterior order and peace in the Congregation or to a spirituall end which is to iudge and define matters of beleefe and to establish Church discipline by decree The question is of this second kinde of Presidencie not of the first And who is principall in this kinde as hauing power to doe it either by himselfe or by his deputie whereunto notwithstanding your obiection I answeare that it is the Pope to whom belongs properlie to call moderate and approoue Generall Councells because he is aboue another Bishops and Successor to sainct Peeter in the gouerment of the whole Church Being aboue other Bishops and their Pastor he hath power to call and to commaund them to meete in Councell when the Generall Church-affaires doe require it which no Bysshop or Patriarke besides can doe none of them all being Superior to all the rest Neither cā the Emperour or any other secular Prince doe it not principallie because he is not Gouernour of the Church or Church busines nor subordinatelie if by some principall cause he chance to moued thereunto because his power is not extended to the latitude of the Church or ouer all Nations and all Bisshops whatsoeuer nor euer was So that his commaund vnto such men as were out of his Dominions were of no power to bringe them together more then the commaund of the kinge of Spaine or of the Spanish Bisshops would serue in France When the Bisshops are assembled the Pope still remaines as he was before their Pastor and their Foundation and there-their director their moderator and Presidēt And this the Generall Councell of Chalcedon did acknowledge in the Person of Leo whom they stiled their Father and their Heade and themselues his Sonnes and his Members 10. The Catholique Church allso did euer acknowledge in the Pope this right of Presidencie which I prooue by all the Generall Councells that euer yet haue bene For the later held in the West you freelie graunt it and if you did not the proofe were easie frō Trent Lions Florence and Rome it selfe Of the former held in Greece I prooue the same * Quibus tuquidem SICVT MEMBRIS CAPVT praeras in his qui tuum tenebant ordinem beneuolentiam praeferens
Imperatores vero AD ORNANDVM decentissimè praesidebant Concil Chalced. Relat. ad Leonem Papam Insuper contra ipsum cui VINEAE custodia à Saluatore commissa est extendit Dioscorus insaniam id est contra tuam quoque Apostolicam Sanctitatem Ibid. Confidentes quia lucente apud vos Apostolico radio vsque ad Constantinopolitanorum EcclesiaÌ„ consuetè guberuand illum spargentes hunc sapiùs expanditis cò quòd absque inuidia consueueritis vestrorum bonorum participatione ditare domesticos Ibid Rogamus igitur tuis DECRETIS nostrum honora iudicium sicut nos CAPITI in bonis adâ—ecimus consonantiam sic Summitas tua FILâ—IS quod decet adimpleat Ibidem because Donatus Stephanus and Marinus were Presidents in the a Subscrip eight Councell as Legates of AdriaÌ„ the secoÌ„d Two Peeters one an Archdeacon the other an Abbot were Presidents in the b Subscrip seuenth in the name of Adrian the first Two Priests Peeter and George together with Iohn a Deacon were Presidents in the c Act. Conc. Zonar vit Coâ—nstaÌ„t Sixt for Agatho Eutichius in the name of Vigilius was President in the d Zonar in vita Iustiniani Vide Ep Eutichij ad Vigil Petimus praesidente nobis vestra ocatitudine c. fi collat 1 fift Paschasius and Iulianus in the e Conc. Chalc. in Relat. ad Leonem Fourth for Leo great Cyrillus for Celestine in the f Conc. Ephes Relat. ad Imp. Marcellin in Chron. Libertat in Breuiar c. 5. Niceph. l. 14. c. 34 third The Bishops who were at the g Ep. ad Damasum ap Theodoret. l. 5. c. 9. secoÌ„d Councell call Damasus their Heade aÌ„dit became Oecumenicall in regard is was by the Pope approued who before had called a generall Councell but the Bysshops could not all meete at Rome as he had appointed by reasoÌ„ of the Arian Heresie And therefore the Easterne Bisshops mette in one place vnder Nectarius the westerne in an other vnder Damasus who afterwards did approoue the Decrees of both parties and so came the councell to be one and Oecumenicall In the h Subscrip See Card. Peron Replique l. â— c. 35. se qq first Hosius Vitus ad Vincentius were Presidents in place of Syluester And by this induction it is cleere that in the Catholique Church the Popes right of Presidencie was not onely acknowledged but practized euer Neither can you alleage good Authoritie or any one approued Author who saith that euer yet any Priest Bishop or Patriarch was President in any Generall Councell in his owne name and not in the Popes which you should doe and prooue allso that the Church approued it as lawfull before you depriue the Pope of possession which he hath had many hundred yeeres by your confession and euer as I haue prooued and by Christs Institution too who made him in S. Peeter the FoundatioÌ„ and Pastor of the Church 17. As for the Emperours Conc. Chalc. in Relat. ad Leon. I answeare out of the Councell of Chalcedon that they were equiuocallie Presidents not for Iudgment and Definition but for peace and Ornament And so much Constantine the greate whom you preferre before those vnto whom he gaue place will confesse for himselfe and his Successors God saith he to the Nicene Fathers hath made you Priests Ap. Ruffin l 1. c. 2. and giuen you power to iudge of vs you may not be iudged by men wherefore looke for Gods iudgment onely amongst your selues and let your dissentions whateuer they be be reserued to Gods examine You are giuen vs as Gods and it is not conuenient that maÌ„ iudge Gods but he alone of whom it is written God stoode in the middest of Gods and in the middest God doth iudge For Approbation of Generall Councells my answeare and proofe is the same First the Roman Bisshoppe because Successor to sainct Peeter is the Foundation aÌ„d Pastor of the Church aÌ„d CouÌ„cells for him did our Sauiour pray that his faith should not faile he was charged to confirme his Brethren and this will be necessarie till the worlds end Generall Councells haue euer desired his Approbation his definition and sentence in the midst of the Bisshops or presented in his name to them or theirs by him approoued not els hath bene constantlie stood vnto by the Catholique Church at all tymes and no Decrees euer admitted which he reiected and refused to confirme Which Vniuersall Iudgment and Generall consent of the World together with the authoritie of the Scripture make his title so cleere that you shall neuer be able to dispossesse the present Pope of this honour or to winne future tymes to your opinion THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Of the Councells of Nice and Constance 12. BEfore I leaue this matter of the Pope aÌ„d Councells I must answere two other obiections that you make in the one you oppose the councell of Franckford to the secoÌ„d of Nice in the other the Laterane couÌ„cell to that of Constance hereby to prooue that the Church doth contradict her self and erre Touching the former two you pretend that the Councell of Franckford hath condemned the Nicene Your Proofe is taken out of the a Caroline Bookes The reason pretended is because the Nicene decred such honour to the pictures of Saincts as is due to God Of these Bookes 〈◊〉 what Beâ—â—lar doth write l. â— de Imag. â— 14. 15 I answere First that in the Councell of Franckford there is no such thing to be found Secondlie your Accusation is false for the honour due to God is not giuen to pictures in the Nicene Councell but another inferiour wherefore if at FraÌ„ckford diuine honour had ben denied to pictures yet the Councells would agree Thirdlie your proofe or witnes discredits his owne storie and ouer throwes himself for he tells vs that the Councell condemned at Franckford was held at Constantinople in Bithynia If at Constantinople how then in Bithynia Constantinople is in Thrace Nice indeede is in Bithynia See the ground quakes vnder the feete of your argument Fourthlie those Caroline bookes out of which you make this argument saie that the Councell condemned at Franckford was held without the Popes Authoritie See Baron an 794. In that of Nice the Popes Legates subscribed to euerie Acte a Allata est in medium quaestio de noua Graecorum Synodo quam de adorandis imaginibus Constantinopoli fecerunt in qua scriptum habebatur vt qui imaginibus Sanctorum ita vt deificae Trinitati seruitium aut adorationem non impenderent anathema iudicarentur Qui supra sanctissimi Patres nostri omnimodis orationem seruitutem eis impendere renuentes contempserunt atque consentieÌ„tes condemnarunt Liber Carolin in Praefat. b Definimuscum omni diligentia venerandas sanctas Imagines dedicandus in Templis sanctis Dei collocandus habendasqua Quo scilicet per hanc Imaginum pictarum inspectionem omnes qui contemplantur ad
the stile and phrase of speach giues them no satisfaction at all For they so disesteeme it in this respect peculiarlie that in regard of the stile and matter they professe themselues moued to beleeue the contrarie and to put it out of the number of Canonicall bookes If you answere that by the helpe of the Spiritte you discerne it you moue them not for they claime as great an interest as full a participation of the Spirit as your selues aÌ„d therefore you moue not theÌ„ to beleeue as you do But suppose if you will that all Antiquitie stoode on your side what could this preuaile to moue a Lutheran to beleeue the matter or to coÌ„firme your disciples who stagger at your want of proofe what could this auaile I say seeing that it is agreed amoÌ„gst you that the Church that all the Fathers that all men since the Apostles might haue aggreed in an errour 27. According to the grounds of our Religion euerie Catholique can answere easilie that whatsoeuer by the Church of God is receaued for diuine Scripture is infalliblie such because the Church is directed by Gods All-seeing Spirit which can discerne it well And suppose the Catholique were vnlearned aÌ„d that all of you together both LutheraÌ„s and Caluinists should preteÌ„d that in the Bookes there wanted the Spirit of truth aÌ„d seeke to maintaine this with a shewe of oppositioÌ„ either within it selfe or to some other part of Scripture or to reason which thing you doe manie times pretend as Iulian and Porphyrie and others haue done before he would answere you all without difficultie by recourse to the diuine Assistance in the Church which he takes for a principle of Christian Religion beleeued heretofore by the whole Christian world and warranted by God himselfe in cleere termes and would say that the knowledge of the Church thus assisted is more certaine then the contrarie pretense of any aduerse part whatsoeuer and she more able to espie contradiction errour or opposition theÌ„ any other is in regard of the holie Spirit who directeth her and with an infinite vnderstanding lookes earnestlie vppon All. In vertue of which assistance she hath maintained scripture against Heathens and Apostataes and misbeleeuing Iewes aÌ„d Heretiques hetherto and still doth and will doe Further more a Catholike doth not thinke it necessarie that the booke which he beleeueth to be Scripture hath beene euer vniuersallie by the Church esteemed so He knowes it is sufficient if the Catholicke Church hath at any time beleeued it For one of the Principles of our ReligioÌ„ is that the Catholike Church cannot erre at all in matter of faith it cannot erre in any age in any tyme. And this principle hath euer bene beleeued by Catholiks Moreouer that which at any tyme she beleeueth hath beÌ„ infolded in her faith at other times and so virtuallie beleeued euer and by all 29. Now to your opposition Whereas you say that of late onelie some Books haue beene taken into the canon I answere first that such Bookes as your selues doe receaue for canonicall were not all at once vniuersallie receaued in the Church but were acknowledged by degrees S. Hieron de viris illustribus in Paulo Iacobo Petro IoaÌ„ne in Ep. ad Dardan itemque in Prolog So much you knowe by those I haue allreadie named and S. Hierom can tell you more Yet are these allso by your owne confession the word of God and were such in themselues before it was generallie knowne vnto the world As our Sauiour was the naturall Sonne of God and his increated Word before the world did knowe or beleeue him so to be The reason is because mans knowledge is later then the veritie and the more obscure the thing is the longer he is ordinarilie before he can find it out Secondlie it is not so late as you thinke since these Bookes were in the Church esteemed Cit. Bellarm de Verbo Dei l. 1. Vide Baron an 415 August Ep 235. de doct Chr. l. 2. c. 8. Innocent Ep. 3. ad Exuper c. 7. Can. SaÌ„cta Rom d. 15. Ierem. 36. canonicall and diuine though not so generallie as I noted before for you finde them cited for such in the Fathers writings verie oft and in the councell of carthage held in the tyme of Boniface twelue hundred yeares agoe you haue a Catalogue of them all the verie same which you finde now deliuered by the couÌ„cell of Trent sauing onlie that Baruch which the auncient Fathers did acknowledge allso for diuine is after the manner of those tymes comprized with Ieremie whose Secretarie you know he was I adde thirdlie that whereas S. Augustine who subscribed to the foresaid councell doth prescribe a rule for yonge Deuines to finde which Scripture is of greatest authoritie bidding them preferre that which all Churches doe receaue before that which is receaued onlie by some Churches or some part wee now seeing the foresaid canon receaued at length by the whole Church of God and this declared in a Generall Councell must and doe yeauen by S. Augustines rule receaue it all as the word of God and consequentlie of one and the same Authoritie all there being no surer ground of mans faith in such a case then is the Spirit of God in the Church The like I answere them allso who runne to the Iewes canon for the Spirit of the christian Church is no lesse able to discerne a veritie then they were and therefore if the christian Church at anie tyme declare a Booke to be diuine though the Iewes knewe it not wee beleeue it and must For the holie Ghost cannot erre The Iewes knewe not all that God hath taught his Church 30. The second exception is vnreasonable if you consider well what is done and the reason of it All Schollers as you knowe doe noe not addict their studies to the toÌ„gues the Hebrewe is so obscure that fewe doe attaine vnto anie reasonable knowledge of it and none at all in these later times especiallie to the comprehension of the tongue but by helpe of Dictionaries compiled by such as come short of the thing it selfe Of the 〈…〉 or of moderne Iewes not equall to the learned of the tyme wherein the Bookes were first written do endeuour what they can This experience hath taught vs Elias 〈…〉 in Habâ—â—â— Vide Genebrard in Psal 104. Serrar Prol. Bibl. c. 19. q. 6. Aliquoties dixi plurima vocabula esse quorum significatio ipsis etiam Hebraeis ignota est Luth. in Gen. c. 34 it is euident also in the continuation and transfusion of all languages to posteritie and Rabbines themselues doe confesse it In regard therefore that Schollers commonlie vnderstand not Hebrewe it hath euer beene thought conuenieÌ„t the Scripture should be translated into such a language as generallie they doe knowe which is Latine In the primitiue Church this was practised and among you it is allowed allso in so much that your predecessors Luther Caluin Beza Iunius and others
is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth