maintained The Philosophers indeed as Thomas saith had a kind of notion of some points thereof but they had no certaintie as well because they were corrupted with errors as for that very few of them are found to haue agreed in the same truth But in the Church is certaine knowledge and truth Which as Caietan saith is vpheld aloft in it because it is auowed reuerenced and honored aboue all things and it is so founded in the Church that out of it it is not to be found This is the reason as they truly say why the Church is called a pillar Thomas addeth that it is termed the ground in respect of others because men cannot be confirmed in the truth but by the sacraments of the Church This testimonie of Austine is alledged by you otherwise then it was written by him For whereas he spake of that which had then alreadie bene resolued of by the whole Church you make him speake indefinitely of any thing that pleaseth the Church turning iam placuit into placet But we must vnderstand that he writing in that place concerning the rebaptizing of heretickes which question had bene agreed vpon as he saith in the former chapter before the hatching of Donatus heresie saith that the iudgement of the Church in that case is to be held as agreeable to the Scripture This might the Reader haue seene in his words if you had not changed the tense in placet and left out etiam in hac re in the beginning of the sentence The truth of the Scriptures saith Austin is held by vs euen in this thing If you reply farther that the reason which Austin vseth is generall for all questions whatsoeuer namely the authoritie of the Church commended by the Scriptures which cannot erre I answer you first that we haue seene Austins iudgement directly to the contrary viz. that whatsoeuer is of necessitie to saluation is plainly deliuered in the Scriptures and that the authoritie of men without Scripture is insufficient to propound any doctrine as a matter of faith and therefore if he should write otherwise in this place we might with good reason make question of his authoritie Secondly I answer that Austine speaketh here of those points onely which are not determinable by Scripture such as he taketh the question of rebaptizing heretickes to be as it appeareth in the words immediatly before those you alledge being also a peece of the sentence by you omitted Although saith Austin there be no example to be brought out of the Scriptures concerning this matter yet the truth of the same Scriptures is euen in this matter also held by vs when we do that which hath now alreadie pleased the whole Church c. Now in such cases as cannot by Scripture be decided who would or may be so presumptuous as to withstand or mislike the practise of the church in all places Surely the authoritie of the church is so far commended in the Scriptures that it ought in all things of such nature to ouerweigh our iudgement and incline our affection to the liking of that which is agreed on by so generall a consent of so many churches in all nations Therefore that which you gather out of Austins words of following the iudgement of the church in an obscure question is to be restrained to such questions as cannot be determined by the Scriptures and those are few or none of any importance of necessitie to saluation none at all or else your consequence will be nothing worth Austin saith that in questions not determinable by Scripture we must follow the iudgement of the church Therefore we must follow it in all obscure questions whatsoeuer Austins foundation will not beare your building Is it a good reason to say In cases not prouided for by law custome must beare sway therfore it must be followed in all cases So and so weakly do you dispute It is not enough for you to teach vs new diuinitie but you will driue vs to learne new Latin too Caesar could make men free of Rome but not words Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam to beleeue the Catholicke Church in ordinary Latin is to beleeue that there is a Catholicke Church Credo esse I beleeue there is but you would make the ignorant beleeue that credo Ecclesiam and credo Ecclesiae is all one For how else can this sentence reasonably depend vpon the former We must follow the iudgement of the Church Therfore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam What can you meane by this but I beleeue that is I giue credit to the Catholick Church that is I beleeue that to be true which the Catholicke Church teacheth But the article of the Creed hath no such sense as it may appeare by the other that follow all being alike in respect of our beleefe I beleeue the communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the resurrection of the bodie and life euerlasting To which of these foure dowe giue any such credit But we beleeue that there is a Church of Christ to which all these priuiledges belong He that translated Epiphanius into Latin more curiously then truly made a difference betwixt beleeuing the church and the other articles We beleeue saith he one holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church we confesse one baptisme for the forgiuenesse of sinnes and looke for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come But the Greeke which Epiph. reciteth out of the Nicene creed is alike in all the articles in the Church in the baptisme of repentance in the resurrection of the dead And Paschasius doubteth not to say that the ignorance of some drew the preposition in from the former sentence concerning beleefe in the holy Ghost into the article of the church yet as he sheweth credere Deum in Deum greatly differ That there is a God the Apostle saith the diuel beleeueth but no mā is held to beleeue in God but he that religiously puts his trust in him Cyril also reciteth the articles after the same manner without any difference in the particulars yet with In to euerie one of them and in that sense in which we take them Ruffin as Paschasius before denieth that the Creed saith In the holy Church in the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the resurrection of the flesh Because that were to equall our beleefe of these points with our beleeuing in the Father the Son and the holy Ghost But of these articles we are to beleeue that they are true that there is a Church gathered vnto God that there is a remission of sinnes that there is a resurrection of the flesh So doth Austin if those Sermons be his read and vnderstand it I beleeue the Catholicke Church c. We must beleeue that God will vouchsafe the resurrection of bodies and the forgiuenesse of sinnes And whereas in an other Sermon he saith in the Church so doth he
reason not only against Scripture were ordained properly as the ministery of the word the seruice of Angels for their sakes that are to be saued according to the election of God Secondly and as it were accidentally for the hardening of them that will not beleeue to leaue them without excuse To make your matter the more likely you tell vs of our Sauiours loue to mankind which in your diuinity is without exception or respect of persons How then can it sute with the purpose of God his Father who hath chosen some to glory refused other meerly of his owne iust will without respect of difference in the parties so chosen refused As for I that loue of mankind wherupon some men conclude that either all or the greatest part of men are loued by God to eternal life it is not to be vnderstood by comparison of men to men but partly of men to the Angels that fell in which respect the Apostle amplifies the mercy of God to vs He tooke not the Angels but he tooke the seed of Abraham partly of men to all other creatures none of which besides man is vouchsafed the honour to be ioyned in vnity of person with the Sonne of God and so to be made heire of euerlasting glory It is needlesse to repeat what I answered before to this place of Isay onely I will say thus much of your exposition that though all that see the Church may know it yet it doth not follow that therefore all men may see it which you make the end of planting a visible Church that euerie man may learne how to be saued We denie not that the markes of the Church are such as that any man who hath the meanes and will vse them with conscience and diligence may come by the grace of God to the acknowledging of it and by the ministerie of it to saluation Such is the truth of doctrine wherein euerie man may be instructed who will submit his reason to the euidence of truth conteined in the holy Scriptures and not wilfully resist or carelesly neglect the worke of the spirit in the ministerie of the word The bands and chaines Austin speaketh of are not said to draw a man out of the world vnto the Church but to hold him in it that is in already And surely he were vnreasonably absurd that being borne in the profession of Christianitie or by any other occasion brought to ioyne himselfe vnto this or that Church would not cōtinue his beleefe vpon those groūds that Austin there mentions as long as there could be no sufficiēt reason brought to the contrarie yea though he could not discerne the truth of many points which he held as he had bene taught But Austin in the same place professeth that the markes he names and all other whatsoeuer whereby he is held in the Catholicke Church are nothing worth in comparison of truth manifestly prooued out of the Scripture But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake againe hereafter where you propound some of Austins words more at large A. D. §. 2. Of these markes diuers authors haue written at large I for breuitie sake haue chosen out onely these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke because I hope these will be sufficient and because I finde these especially set forth in Scriptures commended by Councels and generally admitted of all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants as now I am to declare First for the generall admittance of these properties of the true Church I need no other proofe but that both Catholicks and Protestants allow of the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed wherein we professe to beleeue the true Church the which Church is there described with those onely foure properties which before I named as though by those onely euery man might sufficiently know that Church which in euerie point they are bound to beleeue Now if besides this proofe out of the generally receiued Counsels some precise man would haue me prooue these properties to agree to the true Church out of the Scripture it selfe this also I may easily doe A. W. So many and diuers are the markes of the Church propounded by your Popish writers that you had good cause to giue some reason why you cull these foure out of all the rest First you alledge breuitie wherof if you had beene so desirous you would not so often haue repeated the same matters You adde the sufficiencie of these their being mentioned in the Scripture commended by Councels and generally admitted by all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants All which taking them in your sense are generally false as shall appeare in the particular handling of them But indeed the true cause is though you will not be knowne of it that Bellarmine out of whom you haue patched vp your whole discourse though he bring fifteene yet confesseth that they may all after a sort be reduced to these foure There are two faults in this proofe whereby you labour to perswade vs that these properties are generally admitted both by Protestants and Papists First though both admit them yet in diuers senses we according to the true meaning of those Councels you according to those phantasies you haue deuised for the establishing of your Apostaticall Synagogue Secondly we admit them not all as markes of the or a visible Church but as hidden properties of the Catholicke Church the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ which are not to be discerned by the eye of the bodie but by the light of faith as all other articles in the same Creed are What though there be no more properties but those foure there set downe will it follow thence that therefore they are named as though by those onely euerie man might sufficiently know the Church Is that the vse of those points which are deliuered concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Or rather are they not set before vs as principall matters to be beleeued of them So are also these properties of the Church If any man be so simple as to take your former proofe for good whereas it faileth in the chiefe point you would prooue by it as I haue shewed he is fitter to be pittied then instructed But is it a note of precisenesse to desire proofe for matters of faith out of the scripture Doubtlesse it was then no lesse precisenesse to appoint the scripture for a rule of our faith and as great for our Sauiour Christ and the Apostles to confirme their doctrine out of the scripture For this course of theirs makes vs the bolder to require the like of you whose authoritie we more doubt of whereas if they had stood vpon their priuiledge and neuer troubled themselues with proouing that they deliuered or leauing their doctrine in writing we should easily haue perswaded our selues to rest vpon mens authoritie and not to looke for any proofe by scripture But giue me leaue a little to consider of this
Apostles because they spake immediatly by the direction of the spirit and therefore could not possibly erre in any point whereas all other men are subiect to error and their doctrine to examination ere it need be credited Secondly we must remember it doth not follow that if our Sauiour said whosoeuer beleeued not the Apostles should be damned then he that beleeues not the Ministers now in all they propound to be beleeued should be therefore liable to condemnatiō I haue stood the more vpon this proposition because the consequence being true may breed an error in the conceit of many if the reason of it be not truly vnderstood Your Assumption or minor is thus to be limited according to that which I before deliuered He that beleeues the Apostles spake immediatly by the inspiration of the spirit of God and yet doubts of the truth of some things they preached cannot without reforming this error be saued because he holds that the holy Ghost may inspire an vntruth No more can he that doth not beleeue they spake by such inspiration For of them our Sauiour hath absolutely said He that despiseth you despiseth me The second limitation is about the things themselues The ignorance of some points deliuered by the Apostles vtterly excludes a man out of heauen some other again may be vnknowne and a man notwithstanding that his ignorance be saued Therefore though our Sauiour except no point nor distinguish betwixt matters of doctrine yet the not beleeuing of some is no farther damnable then a man doth wilfully refuse to beleeue that which he confesseth to be truth in his heart or at the least in which he thinkes the Apostles were deceiued or which he despiseth as needlesse and so condemnes the wisedome of God in propounding it to be beleeued A. D. §. 3. And this not without reason for not to beleeue any one point whatsoeuer which God by reuealing it doth testifie to bee true and which by his Church he hath commaunded vs to beleeue must needs be damnable as being a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will But all points of faith are thus testified by God and commaunded to be beleeued otherwise they be not points of faith but of opinion or some other kinde of knowledge Therefore all points of faith must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued beleeued I say eyther expresly and actually as learned men may doe or implicite and virtually as vnlearned Catholicks commonly doe who beleeuing expresly those articles which euerie one is bound particularly to know doe not in the rest obstinately doubt or hold some errour against the Church but haue a minde prepared to submit themselues in all things to the authoritie of the Church which they are sure is taught and directed by the spirit of God and doe in generall hold for vndoubted truth whatsoeuer the Catholicke or vniuersall Church doth beleeue A. W. Now followeth the second proofe of your assumption in this manner Euerie notable iniurie to Gods veritie and disobedience to his will is damnable But misbeleeuing or absolutely not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will Therefore misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is damnable To let passe this craftie conueyance whereby you still shuffle in the Church whereas without it the matter is as true and the proposition as perfect I answer to your assumption that all misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing is not a notable iniurie to Gods truth nor a great disobedience to his will where it proceeds simply of ignorance and not of wilfulnesse except in such cases as I shewed in the end of the last section which I speake not to excuse any man as if he did not sinne in misbeleeuing or as if there were some sinne not deadly according to your erroneous conceit but onely to distinguish notable iniuries and great disobedience from some kinde of misbeleeuing The conclusion is thus to be conceiued That misbeleeuing is in it selfe damnable not that no man can be saued which misbeleeueth This distinction of beleeuing expresly and implicitly as you terme it confirmes part of that which I haue hitherto said for by your confession there are some points to the beleefe whereof a general faith will not serue the turne but a man must know the particulars and assent actually to the truth of them For example it is not enough for a man to beleeue in grosse that he must be saued by such meanes onely as God hath reuealed and the Church hath propounded to be beleeued but it is absolutely necessarie to saluation that he know what the Church holdeth in this case concerning redemption by our Sauiour Christ and in his heart acknowledge the truth thereof Againe there are many other points which so a man neglect not the meanes to know them may be vnknowne and beleeued onely in generall without danger of damnation by reason of such ignorance Now this generall beleefe is not as you falsely say to be folded vp in the faith of the Church but to be tied to the Scripture all things wherein I acknowledge to be most true and beleeue all points whatsoeuer as they are eyther expressed or contained in Scripture howsoeuer I be ignorant what is true touching perhaps very many particulars To the authoritie of the Church I willingly submit my selfe thus farre as that I hold it a sinfull presumption for me or any man eyther to compare my priuate opinion with the generall iudgement of other Christians especially Ministers or to condemne or suspect that of falshood which they deliuer vnlesse I haue apparent proofe for the one and great likelihood for the other In which cases I set not my owne conceit against the doctrine of the Church but preferre the truth of God before the opinions of men As for any infallible authoritie in the Church vpon supposall of such a certaine direction by the spirit of God I hold it neither for true nor probable as shall appeare hereafter In the meane while I desire the Reader to consider these few testimonies cōcerning the authority of men Other writers saith Austin I reade with this prouiso that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I will not thinke a matter true because they haue thought so but because they haue bene able to perswade me eyther by other Canonicall writers or by some likely reason In an other place We may not consent to Bishops though they be Catholicke if at any time they be deceiued so that they iudge contrarie to the Canonicall Scripture of God Of necessitie saith Origen must we call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit And this charge Basil layeth vpon vs that when we heare we examine
also in the forgiuenesse of sinnes and the meaning is all one And in a third Sermon he giueth vs this caueat we must know saith he that we must beleeue the Church not beleeue in the Church that is must beleeue there is a Church So then To beleeue the Catholicke Church is not to beleeue all that the Church saith which neither the Greeke nor the Latin will beare but to beleeue there is a Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Credo esse Ecclesiam which in the phrase of the new Testament for the Greeke might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which is word for word I beleeue that there is a Church Now if any man shall demaūd of me what the meaning of this article is or what we beleeue by beleeuing there is a Church and what that Church is to which so many gracious promises are made and of which so many glorious things are spokē in the scripture I will indeuor to satisfie him as briefly as I can with plainnesse First then leauing the holinesse and catholicknesse of this church to be discussed in due place I say that by beleeuing the Church we beleeue that there is a company of men called to true faith in Iesus Christ and to the participation of those priuiledges which belong to all the true members of his mysticall bodie some of the principall whereof are recited in the articles following But we may not imagine as the Papists doe without any likelihood of true reason that this company is their Pope and Bishops assembled in a generall councel or that they of this companie make one visible congregation but that they are all one Church in regard of the common meanes of saluation which they embrace and their dependance vpon on mysticall head Iesus Christ of whose bodie they are all members So that by Church in the Creed we vnderstand such of the elect as are by faith liuely members of our Sauiours bodie or at the least are by the baptisme of the spirit and water in corporated into that bodie howsoeuer as yet they haue not faith I denie not that all the elect euen those which are yet vnborne belong to the Church of Christ but I thinke the Creed doth not stretch so farre but onely to them that are actually members of Christ not to all that are so in Gods euerlasting predestination In this sense namely for the liuing members of Christs bodie the word Church is often vsed in the Scripture Vpon this rocke will I build my Church The Church which he hath purchased with his blood God hath giuen Christ ouer all things to be the head of the Church which is his bodie the fulnesse of him that filleth all in all things Christ is the head of the Church and the same is the Sauiour of his bodie So is it taken in the same chapter diuers times He is the head of the bodie of the Church Thus doe the ancient writers speake of the Church Austin denieth that he dares take any for the Church of Christ but those that are iust and holy no though they haue bene baptised For as he saith in another place they that are condemned by Christ are not now in his bodie which is the Church because Christ cannot haue members condemned As for the reprobate saith the same Author whether they seeme to be within the Church or be apparantly out of it they are alwaies diuided from the vnitie of the Church which is without spot or wrincle The Church saith Clement of Alexandria is the company of the elect Therefore saith Cyprian that the vnitie of Christ and the Church is coupled together with indiuisible links For as he saith otherwhere the Church that beleeueth in Christ and holds that which once it hath receiued neuer departeth wholy frō him they are the Church that cōtinue in the house of God but they are not a planting planted by God who are not setled with the fastnesse and soundnesse of wheat but are scattered like chaffe by the breath of the enemie Sathan The Church standeth on the right hand saith Ierome and hath nothing in it belonging to them on the left hand And againe He that is a sinner and defiled with any filthinesse cannot be called one of Christs Church nor be said to be subiect to Christ There are many such sayings in the writings of the Fathers grounded vpon the booke of Canticles which all men know intreateth of the true church There is no doubt saith Bernard vpon the Canticles but the elect are the Church of God But the reprobat as one of your Cardinals saith are not truly mēbers of the Church Of many beleeuers purged from their sinnes there is made one Church saith Albertus magnus Thomas his master Thomas himselfe expounding that place of the Reuelation In the Temple of my God saith that by the temple of God the Church of the faithfull is vnderstood which is the speciall temple of God and to that purpose he alledgeth that of the Apostle The temple of God is holy which you are And in an other place he saith that the mysticall bodie of Christ is the Church Now the vnion of this mystical bodie is spiritual by which through faith and charitie they are vnited to God and one to another As the godly or they that are holy are the members of Christ so the wicked saith Ambrose are the members of the Diuell The congregation of them that beleeue aright is the Church saith Altissiodorensis Who can reasonably doubt whether this be the Church spoken of in the Creed or no As for the promises and commendations giuen to the Church in the Scripture to what other Church should they appertaine The Doue and the perfect one praised in the Canticles is as Epiphanius truly saith the holy spouse and Catholicke Church Whereas the Church in the Canticles saith Austin is described to be a garden inclosed a fountain sealed vp a wel of liuing water c. I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous not of couetous men not of deceiuers extortioners vsurers drunkards enuious persons although they haue receiued the same baptisme but haue not the same charitie or sanctifying grace The promises praises belong either seuerally to euery one of the elect called as that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church that the Church is loued and cherished by Christ her husband head or to the congregations of beleeuers in regard of the elect amongst them Once this I dare boldly affirme let any Papist disproue it if he can that the Church is no where in all the Scripture taken for one companie through the world in respect of any outward gouernment or dependance which is the foundation of all your doctrine touching the Church but in regard of the common meanes of saluation by faith in Christ And here I might
Ierome before Poperie was hatched shall alwaies be open to them that desire to be saued that entrance may not be denied either in prosperitie or aduersity to them that will beleeue Thus this place of Esay will not prooue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 7. Sixtly the onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or onely of the good But this is a false ground as appeareth by the name of Church in Greeke Ecclesia which euen by the Etymology of the word doth signifie the companie of men called now sure it is that moe are called then elected as our Sauiour saith Multi vocati pauci electi Againe this ground is shewed to be false by those parables in which the Church is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed And to a mariage to which came good and bad And to a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad And to ten Virgins wherof fiue were foolish and excluded from the celestiall mariage This ground is also shewed to be false out of Saint Paule who commaundeth the Corinthians to expell an incestuous person out of the Church Ergo before this expulsion there was such a person in the Church and therefore the Church doth not consist onely of those that be good A. W. Because your owne reasons are not strong enough to proue the point in question you thinke to helpe the matter by ouerthrowing the ground whereupon onely as you confidently auouch we build our deniall of the Churches visibility at all times But neither is that our onely ground and if it were you are not able to shake it Concerning the former we denie the visibilitie of the Church as it is vnderstood in those places where our Sauiour promiseth spirituall graces to it and as it is taken in the Creed because that Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ and therefore can consist of none but those that are truly iustified and sanctified as none but the elect are But we farther denie the same visibilitie because you would haue vs beleeue that the Catholicke Church is visible To which we answer that this Catholicknesse let the Church be what it will maketh it inuisible because that which is Catholicke is generall consisting of many particulars and we haue learned that vniuersals are not subiect to sense but onely to be conceiued by the minde as hauing no outward shape which can be seene or knowen by any of the fiue senses Moreouer if we take the question in the most reasonable sort that may be and so it is verie seldome handled by you Whether there must alwaies be some one or other companie of men that may be famously knowen of all the world to be a true Church of Christ Still we continue in denying that visibilitie First as it is propounded by you for an Article of Faith and an essentiall propertie of the or a true Church Secondly because we are taught in the Scriptures that the true Church that is the professours of Christs true Religion shall be faine to flie into the wildernesse and so must needes be out of the sight of at least the greatest part of the world I am loth to repeate these things so often but you driue me to it my helpe is to do it as shortly as I can All the forces you bring to ouerturne the ground vpon which our denial of the Churches visibilitie stādeth are diuided by you into two bands with the former whereof thus you set vpon vs. The companie of men called consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is the companie of men called Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely I denie your Minor many men are called that are not of the Church which consisteth of such onely as being called are also elect It is true that the word Church is sometimes so generally taken that it compriseth all such as make profession of faith in Christ but this is not the Church of which the Creed speaketh and to which our Sauiours promises apppertaine yea besides this Church there is the true Church of Christ whereof he is head whose bodie hath neuer a rotten or dead member such as ouer many perhaps the greatest part of them that make profession of beleefe commonly are In a word the whole course of your Treatise failes in this point that whereas the word Church is diuersly taken you apply that to it in the generall meaning of the word which was spoken of it by our Sauiour the Prophets and Apostles in that speciall signification by which it containeth none but the elect To your proofe I answer farther First that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verie nature of it doth not signifie The companie that is any certaine companie called but generally a company that is any such companie whatsoeuer Secondly I adde that the word is also sometimes taken for a companie whether called or not called as I haue hated the companie of the wicked Where the Prophet speaketh not of any companie called together but absolutely of the wicked howsoeuer assembled or not assembled Thirdly I say it is enough in respect of the nature and Etymology of the word that the Church be a companie of men called neither can it any way be enforced from the signification of it in Greeke that the Church must needs comprehend all that are in any sort called Indeed the elect onely may truly be said to be called in an especiall manner because they haue besides the outward sound of the preacher the inward voice of the spirit and are not onely called to beleeue the truth of the Gospell but also to beleeue truly in Iesus Christ to saluation This is your rereward with which you charge vs afresh and that as it were both with foote and horse First you throng together many places of Scripture as if your confidence were greater in your number then in vour valour Let vs encounter you That which is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed To a mariage to which come good and bad To a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad To ten virgins whereof fiue were foolish and shut out from the coelestiall mariage consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is compared to such a floare marriage net virgins Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely A verie hot assault but your bullets fall a great way short of the marke you do or should aime at For all you prooue by this reason is onely this that the Church taken for the whole companie of them that make profession of the Gospell consisteth not onely of the elect Who euer dreamed it did You are so farre from ouerturning our ground that you neuer once come neare it for all this braue shew
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
is vnpossible because God doth not reueale this point to men neither are they able to iudge who are truly iustified and sanctified and who are not Secondly the question is whether the catholicke Church spokē off in the Creed can be discerned by the same bodily sight or no we say it cannot because it containeth none but the elect you say it can because it consisteth of all them that make profession of christian Religion vnder the absolute gouernment of the Pope of Rome The onely true meanes to make a full end of this controuersie is to shew what the Church is of which the Creed the Scriptures speak so many and so glorious matters This point you haue not once touched but either ignorantly or craftily concealed that difference betwixt vs and alledge that for the definition of the Church which if it were true as it is euidently false yet is but one priuiledge of the Church and expresseth not the nature of it But let vs leaue these matters and consider what it is that according to your former discourse you are to prooue Now that is say I that there alwaies hath bene since our Sauiours comming is and shall be to the end of the world a companie of men famous and visible in the world so that all men at all times may discerne that they are the true Church of Iesus Christ. For that I may in part vse your owne words as they follow in this chapter if at any time it could not be knowen then the men that liued in that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequently whereby they might come to saluation Giue me leaue to apply that to all men which you speake of all times If there euer were are or shall be any men to whose sight the Church was not so visible that they might discerne and know it then those men wanted necessary means whereby they might attaine to saluation which if it were so say you how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture God would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth Do you not perceiue that your reason necessarily requireth to haue it prooued that the Church is visible as at all times so to all men For if it faile in either of these respects your consequence will follow that some men haue wanted necessarie meanes of saluation and so God would not haue all men saued Therefore you propound the question verie insufficiently when you say We inquire whether the Church at any time be inuisible so that no man can see those men c. For though at all times some men may see and know it yet vnlesse all men at all times may you haue prooued nothing to purpose in this whole Treatise A. D. §. 2. In which matter my Assertion is that the Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore cited do speake must alwaies be visible This I prooue first by that plaine Prophesie of Isaias in the 61. Chapter Which Chapter to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church we may gather out of Saint Luke where our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe The words of the Prophesie are these Foedus perpetuum feriam eis scietur in gentibus semen eorum Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quoniam isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus I will make a perpetuall couenant or league with them and their seede shall be knowen among Nations all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seede which our Lord hath blessed How could he more plainely haue foretolde the visiblenesse of the Church The places of Scripture afore cited speake not all alike some of them concerne the Apostles onely and that not onely as they are a companie but as they are seuerall teachers authorised by our Sauiour Christ with so high and absolute a commission some belong to all true christians as well seuerally considered one by one as taken iointly all together Some appertaine to all Ministers some reach to all professors of the truth of the gospell How then can you truly say that the true Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore recited doe speake must alwaies be visible The Apostles haue not bene visible these 1500 yeares The elect that is the Church built vpon a rocke neuer was nor euer shall be visible in this world All Ministers were not nor can be visible to all men All professors neither are the true Church of Christ nor can by any meanes possible be seene of all mē as one church but with the eies of the mind Particulars are subiect to sense but vniuersals are discerned onely by vnderstanding Your assertion then is false but we will take it as it is set downe by you supposing that those places of Scripture speake of the Church in generall Yet we may not forget that the second point must needs be added concerning all men and so your assertion must be this The true Church of Christ must alwaies be visible to all men liuing To make way to your argument out of this prophesie you go about to prooue that the Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ his Church your proofe lieth thus Our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church This consequent doth not follow vpon that Antecedent First because the whole chapter may be written of our Sauiour himselfe and yet not of his Church also Secondly because some part of it may be of our Sauiour and yet not those words you alledge For who is he that knoweth not that one and the same Chapter often times conteineth diuers prophesies belonging to diuers matters and parties But though your proofe be naught your opinion is true For those words that whole chapter concerne our Sauiour and his Church Let vs see how you reason If our Sauiour promise to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church and that their seede shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed then the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing But our Sauiour hath promised to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church that their seed shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Therefore the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing I denie the consequence of your Maior Though our Sauiuiour made such a promise and indeed hath and doth daily performe it yet it doth not follow thereupon that the Church must alwaies be visible to all men Shall the promise
is your purpose in this place to prooue that the Church is holy A labour that might well haue bene spared for who euer denied it or doubted of it But let me againe put you in minde that when you haue prooued the Church to be holy you haue got nothing because euerie qualitie of the Church is not by and by a marke whereby it may be knowne It may be proper to the Church so that it can neuer be found but in the Church and yet not be alwaies there to be found It may also be true alwaies and yet not be alwaies visible But let vs see your proofe The Temple of God is holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is holy The holinesse you meane as you expound your selfe is true and inward sanctitie which you say is wrought by the Sacraments And this indeed is the holinesse which onely can make a man a Christian For Thomas truly saith He that is not annointed with the grace of the holy Ghost is not a Christian Hereupon before I answer to your Syllogisme I will make it manifest by your owne argument that holinesse is no good marke to know the Church by Euerie good marke of the Church must be easier to be knowne then the Church it selfe True inward sanctity is not easier to be known thē the Ch. it selfe Therefore true inward sanctitie is no good marke of the Church The Maior is yours in plaine words generally deliuered The second thing required in a good marke is that it be more apparent and easie to be knowne then the thing is The Minor is prooued by these words of yours in the same place The secret disposition of a mans heart is harder to be knowne then the man himselfe how then shall true inward sanctitie be easier to discerne then the men in whom it is If by Temple you vnderstand the whole company as you plainly auouch and by holinesse true inward sanctity I denie your Maior Because the whole companie makes not one person or subsistence wherein onely there is place for such habits or qualities True inward holinesse is a qualitie no where resident but in some speciall substance and therefore if the whole companie of the Church haue not a generall soule as Auerrois dreamed of the world it is vnpossible it should haue true inward holinesse It should seeme also you saw as much your selfe and therefore giue vs an other exposition of the place that the whole companie is to be termed holy In this sense you must conclude thus The Temple of God is to be termed holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is to be termed holy But this prooueth not that the Church is holy Do you thinke that the Nicene Councell when it deliuered it as an article of faith that we are to beleeue One holy Church meant nothing but that the Church was to be termed holy Yes they meant to teach vs that the true Church is truly holy being purged from the guilt of sinne by the sacrifice of our Sauiour Iesus Christ and indued with true habituall righteousnesse by the spirit of sanctification It is a poore marke to know the Church by to tell vs it is a companie that is to be termed holy What then is the Apostles meaning when he saith the Temple of God is holy Many interpreters take this whole passage of the Apostle frō the beginning of the 16. verse to be a reproofe particularly of the incestuous person and generally of all vncleane liuers and they by Temple vnderstand seuerall Christians sanctified by the Spirit of God who dwelleth in them and maketh them holy Thus do Cyrill Irenaeus and Cyprian apply the place Other whose iudgement in this text I rather follow thinke that the Apostle in these verses continueth his former discourse concerning the ministerie of the word diuersly vsed by diuers teachers some building vpon the foundation gold siluer and pretious stones other laying on it timber hay or stubble A third kind destroying the foundation by false doctrine of whom the Apostle here speaketh threatning them destruction because they destroy the Temple of God The reason whereof one of them giues in these words The Temple of God is holy To defile that which is holy saith Catharin deserueth destruction euen among the heathen For if any man hurt the walles of the Citie which the heathen accounted holy he was to die for it Now if this law were executed for the prophaning of walles and temples made with hands how much more ought the destroying of Christians who by faith and loue haue receiued the Lord Iesus be so seuerely punished Euen so much more saith Lyra as spirituall things are to be preferred before corporall By the Temple of God then the Apostle meaneth the congregations or Churches of professed Christians such as that of Corinth was These he saith are holy that is either consecrated to the worship of God which is the professed end of Christian assemblies or truly holy in regard that they make profession and so in charitie are to be taken but where the contrary euidently appeareth of being iustified and sanctified by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ You giue two other reasons of their being termed holy the one that the profession of religion of itselfe wholy tendeth to holinesse How can this be a good mark to know the true Church by when euery company wil say their doctrine hath the same end and he that will beleeue it of any company must know and be able to iudge of euery point they maintaine Your second is that the Sacraments worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie I will not enter into the question about the Sacraments what or how they worke it is nothing to the purpose But to the point what hereticall Church will not or may not say the like whether truly or falsely it skils not because that will aske a new examination such as euerie one that must know the Church cannot make Therefore this marke of holinesse is not a good marke to know the true Church by being inward and claimed by all companies of Christians Not onely some but all the members of the true Church of Christ are inwardly and outwardly holy being purged by his bloud and spirit And this their holinesse is so manifest ordinarily that there need none of your counterfeit miracles for the countenancing thereof especially since God neuer tooke that course in his Church to approoue any mans holinesse by the gift of miracles the vse whereof is to confirme doctrine when need requireth neither can any man from miracles conclude that he which worketh them is inwardly truly sanctified Was not Iudas one of them to whom power was giuen euen ouer the diuels Yet was he a thiefe a traitor and a diuell Many wil say vnto me in that day saith our Sauiour Lord haue we not by
Catholicke and Apostolicke agree onely to the true Church and sith it is no hard matter for any to see or know which companie of Christians hath these properties as in the next Chapter I shall declare it is also plaine that these foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke being proper to the true Church and apparent enough are good notes or markes by which men may discerne which companie of those which haue the name of Christians and which professe as euerie companie professeth themselues to teach the true doctrine of Christ is indeed the true Church which doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ A. W. Nay rather it hath euidently appeared that neuer an one of these nor all of them together as you vnderstand them are any good markes of the true Church because euerie one of them is such as that either a true Church may be without them or at the least that no ordinarie man is able to iudge which Church hath these properties in it and which hath not Whereupon I may safely conclude that your grand syllogisme in this Chapter which any man may gather out of this last part of it is neither rightly applied to that which you were to prooue as I shewed in the beginning nor true it selfe either for the Maior or Minor as by my answer to it hath bin prooued And wheras you adde in the end that the true Church doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ we haue had too much triall of your weaknesse in iudging and boldnesse in affirming to beleeue this Cuckowes song of yours though you chaunt it ouer neuer so often A. D. CHAP. XVI That the Romane Church is One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke and therefore the true Church A. W. Although the Romane Church were One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke in such sense as you vnderstand these titles yet were it not therefore the true Church because there is neuer an one of these properties except it be holinesse which can be a marke of the Church to no man because no man can iudge of it but may for the nature of it agree to some hereticall assembly A. D. §. 1. Thus farre my discourse hath gone along all in generalities in shewing the necessitie of true faith and that this faith is to be learned of the true Church and that this Church continueth alwaies and is visible as being a visible company of men professing the true faith of Christ partaking his Sacraments and liuing vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastors his substitutes and that whereas diuers companies of men take vpon them the title of this Church whereby same do stand in doubt which companie is the true Church there be certaine markes by which the true Church may be certainly knowne and discerned from all other companies or congregations and finally that these markes be those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke which are certainly knowne to be the properties of the true Church both by the Nicene Creed and also by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A. W. This generall discourse of yours hath bene generally so weak and so little to purpose that you are now as new to begin as you were at the first Shall I runne ouer these particulars here mentioned True faith is necessarie to saluation But not such a faith as you require which must be entire whole and sound in all points so that the misbeleeuing of any one should be damnable 2. This faith is to be learned ordinarily of the ministers of the true Church but not to be taken vpon their credit without any examination of that they deliuer by the word of God 3. There is no such Church and much lesse any such continuance and visibilitie of it as you imagine though it may be said there is one Church because all true Churches agree in the same doctrine of the Gospell as farre as is necessarie to saluation so that none of them ouerthroweth the foundation There are also certaine markes by which true Churches may be discerned from false but those you name as you vnderstand them neither are to be found in euerie true Church and to the vttermost of mans iudgemēt may be in heretical Churches Now whereas you say that those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke are certainely knowne to be the properties of the true Church there is no certaine knowledge which are good markes either by the Nicene Creed or by the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures and neither that Creed nor the Fathers do approoue of these for markes of a true Church in such sense as you vrge them A. D. §. 2. Now it will be good to see if we can by these generall grounds conclude which particular company of men is the true Church of Christ a conclusion of exceeding great consequence as touching all matters in controuersie concerning the doctrine of faith as may appeare by the drift of all my former discourse For the framing of which conclusion we shall not need to bring in comparison all the companies or sects of diuers religions that haue bene and are in the world because euerie one can easily discerne of themselues and especially by the helpe of that which hath bene said that neither Turks nor Iewes nor whatsoeuer other infidels can be the true Church of Christ because these neither haue the name of Christians neither do they professe to haue the name of Christ Neither am I now to meddle with heretickes and schismatickes of former ages the which as they haue bin condēned by the generall consent of the Church so in continuance of time they haue bin worne out by the same Church in so much that euen the memorie of them God be thanked seemeth to be perished with them A. W. Out of all doubt if your generall grounds be true it is possible to conclude by them which particular companie or rather companies are true Churches of Christ For neither can the markes of a true Church agree to a false neither are they such as cannot be discerned where they are Of Iewes and Turkes indeed there can be no question but what say you to the Greeke Churches and their Patriarckes who pleade all these points for themselues as well as you do and are able to make as good proofe of their Vnitie Holinesse Catholicknesse and Apostolicknesse Yet are you farre from acknowledging these to be true Churches of Christ because forsooth they will not come vnder the slauish yoake of your Romish Antichrist Concerning the heretickes and schismaticks of former ages I would to God Christian Churches were as free of them as we desire But Sathan who in the beginning of the Gospell laboured p to choake the good seed with his cockle and darnell though for a time he continued in securitie and like a strong man armed at all points possessed his house in peace hauing procured a generall subiection to his eldest sonne Antichrist your Pope yet when in this as it were second birth of
We are now come to the principall point of your Minor wherein it stands you vpon to play the man and to make good those foure properties on the behalfe of your Church of Rome I must needs say it would grieue a man to take so much paines to so little purpose because if you prooue all that now you vndertake all that is as good as nothing till your Maior and your former syllogismes be better confirmed But yet if you quit your selfe well in this your Church shall be more beholding to you then it was euer yet to any of your fellowes in this question To begin withall you propound the question somwhat fauorably that the Romane Church holds not any dogmaticall points contrary to that which in former times frō the beginning it did hold It were much indeed your Church should teach contrarie doctrines to those it hath heretofore taught I think you can hardly name me any heresy so grosse as to fall frō one contrary to an other Your schoolmen haue set vp a mint wherin they coine vs euery day new distinctions to colour matters in such sort that your new opinions shall neuer appeare to be cōtrary to your old doctrine Hauing thus pitcht the state of the question it seemeth you thought there needed no proofe therof once it is apparent you offer not directly to bring any in this whole discourse but rather endeuour to shew vs the reason of this their agreement because forsooth they acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth Of which in due place But to take your matter as it lies That Church say you which holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold is alwaies one But the Church of Rome holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold Therefore the Church of Rome is alwaies one The question is not which Church is alwaies one in regard of not varying from that which first it held but which is alwaies one according to the meaning of the Nicene Creed that is which Church continueth in the truth of the Gospell For otherwise an hereticall Church might be acknowledged to be one and so a true Church because it remaineth obstinate in that heresie which at first it embraced Therefore your Maior is not true simply but onely vpon this supposition that your Church at the first held the truth But because we gladly acknowledge that the Church of Rome was at the first sound in faith I will leaue your Proposition and come to your Assumption Your Minor is excepted against by vs as you cannot choose but knowe in verie many points and some of them concerning the foundation of Christian Religion For triall whereof we appeale to the Epistle to the Romanes about matters of Faith Grace Iustification Free will Predestination and other that necessarilie depend vpon these Here are you as dumbe as a fish and like a man that had neither eares nor eies passe by this exception without taking any knowledge of it Is this a direct way according to your promise in your title to settle mens minds in all doubts questions and controuersies concerning matters of faith You might as well without all this ado haue told them in one word that the Church of Rome is the true Church and cannot erre For in effect what do you else when after many circumstances the question is brought to this issue whether the Church of Rome hold the same doctrine which in the Apostles time she professed You tell vs she doth without any proofe of that you say or answer to our manifold exceptions I will not enter into particulars as well because I see my answer growes greater then I intended or like of as also for that the seuerall controuersies betwixt you and vs are so many seuerall exceptions against this Assumption For verie pure shame you are driuen to confesse that there are differences of opinion among the learned of your side But to helpe the matter withall you qualifie it with sometimes Sometimes say you Either your reading must be verie little or your boldnesse exceeding great that you mince the matter in this sort with sometimes Answer my former challenge if you can concerning the warres among your schoolemen or doe but look into Cardinall Bellarmines controuersies and then tell me whether these differences be but sometimes or no. What learned writer almost is there of any fame on your part whom Bellarmine doth not dissent from in one point or other I might giue many instances but there is no man that reads him ignorant of that I say and you haue found a shift for this matter by interpreting dogmaticall points of Faith to be matters defined by the Church Wherein we are first to consider how absurdly you limit matters of faith Secondly to shew that euē in these matters so limited there is not alwaies agreement amongst your writers The vse and office of faith as it is onely an assent is to giue vndoubted credit to the whole truth of God by acknowledging it both to be from God and to be true For proofe of this if any man desire it I referre him to the third and forth Chapters of this treatise where you speake of the infalliblenesse and entirenesse of faith But though this be the dutie of faith it hath pleased God to deale graciously with men touching the meanes of their saluation and not to exact vpon absolute necessitie an acknowledging or knowledge of euery particular point of his truth Some things are such as I shewed before as that without them there is no possibilitie of saluation but that whosoeuer is ignorant of them either by neglecting the meanes of knowledge or by hauing no possibility to attaine vnto it he is vtterly shut out for ought we know from the kingdome of heauen Other points there are which euerie man must labour to know and beleeue because they are to that end reuealed by God but yet the simple ignorance of them so it be without contempt or carelesnesse doth not depriue a man of saluation by Christ The former of these two kindes are more properly matters of faith being absolutely necessarie to saluation You speake of matters of faith as though not the points in thēselues but the determination of the Church should make a necessitie of them to saluation So that the not beleeuing of the least matter of ceremonie enioyned by the Church shall be more damnable then the ignorance of the greatest point of Diuinitie being not so determined But I would faine know of you how I shall vnderstand what is to be accounted determined by the Church You confesse afterward that it is questionable whether the chiefe Pastor that is the Pope alone or he with a generall Councel be the Church which cannot erre Doubtlesse if it be
or dreame but that the like would haue bene set out about the alteration of religion if it had happened And that if any such Historie reporting any true accident of alteration or change of religion had come out it should partly by Gods prouidence partly by humane diligence haue bene preserued till these our daies especially considering that such records had bene so requisite for discerning the ancient vnchanged true Christian Religion from vpstart noueltie which must needs be false So that we may well conclude that if Christian Religion had since the Apostles time altered in Rome it would haue bene recorded in histories as other things and especially such notable alterations are recorded and those histories would haue bene preserued till this day as other Christian monuments haue bene preserued euen in time of persecution yea euen then when the persecutors made particular enquirie for Christian bookes to burne or consume them But in those ancient Histories there is no mention made of any such alteration of Religion in Rome Wherefore it followeth that there was no such alteration or change at all No such alteration being made it is euident that the same faith and Religion which was in Saint Paules time hath alwaies continued and is there now That which was there then was the true faith and Religion as appeareth by that high commendation which Saint Paule hath left written of it Therefore that which is there now must needs be the onely true holy and Catholicke faith and that companie which professeth it must needs be the Onely true Holy and Catholicke Church Neither can I see what answere can with any probabilitie be forged against this reason For to say that the errours of the Church of Rome crept in by little and little and so for the littlenesse of the thing or for negligence of the Pastours were not espied is an idle fiction alreadie refuted For first those matters which the Protestants call errours in the Romane Church be not so little matters but that lesse euen in the like kinde are ordinarily recorded in stories Nay some of them are in the Protestants conceits and consequently if men of old time had bene Protestants they would haue bene also in their conceits as grosse superstition as Paganisme it selfe namely to adore Christ our Sauiour as being really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament the which Sacrament Protestants hold to be really and substantially but a bare peece of bread Also the Protestants account the vse of the Images to be Idolatrie and say verie ignorantly or maliciously that we adore stockes and stones as the Paynims did The which things could not so haue crept in by little and little but they must needs be espied Neither could the Pastours of the Church at any time be so simple and ignorant so sleepie and negligent but they must needes haue seene and seeing must needes in some sort haue resisted as before I haue said For to imagine all the Pastours of any one age to haue bene in such a deepe Lethargicall and deadly sleepe that they could not onely not perceiue when the enemie should ouer sow Cockle in the hearts of some but also when this Cockle of false beleefe should grow to outward action and especially to publicke practise the which could not be but most apparent to imagine I say all the Pastors to be so simple and sleepie not then to marke or not to resist is rather the dreame of a proud man in his sleepe who is apt to thinke all men fooles beside himselfe then a iudictall conceit of a waking man of any vnderstanding who ought to thinke of things past either according to the veritie recorded in stories or when this faileth by comparing the likelihood of that which hee thinketh was done by men of that time with that which most men of their qualitie would do in like case Finally if these things were so that the church did by this means for so long space in such important matters vniuersally erre Neglexerit officium Spiritus sanctus as Tertullian speaketh refuting the like cauill of heretickes the holy Ghost should haue neglected his office which is as I haue proued before out of Scripture not to permit the vniuersall Church to fall into error but to suggest vnto it all things that Christ said vnto it and to teach it all truth A. W. Catholicknesse especially as you vnderstand it is not such a propertie of the Church but the Church may be without it as it is plaine by that Church which was in our Sauiour Christs time onely in the land of Iewrie and after his death till the Church was scattered abroade in the world Yet let vs see what you bring to prooue that our Church is not Catholicke If there cannot be assigned a visible companie of men professing the same faith which the Protestants do euer since Christs time continuing without interruption till now then the Protesiants Church is not Catholicke But there cannot be such a companie assigned Therefore the Protestants Church is not Catholicke I denie the consequence of the maior First because that may be Catholicke which is not visible as the Church of the elect is dispersed in all places and yet no where to be seene Secondly because Catholicknesse belongs neither to time nor doctrine but to place and persons Thirdly because it is not required that the same faith in all points should be professed which you meane by the same faith but onely the same in matters fundamentall I grant your minor that we cannot assigne you any such companie though we doubt not but that there was alwayes such a companie greater or lesse as appeares by them which from time to time haue by their writings or sufferings maintained the substance of that doctrine which we now professe To proue that our doctrine is not vniuersal you say it chiefly consisteth of negatiues whereas you cannot be ignorant that we hold all the articles of the creed and that in the same sense as you do saue onely in some few differences about the vnderstanding of beleefe what it is to beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost and what it is to beleeue the Church and in what respect the Church is called holy and Catholicke and what the Church is that we beleeue But we denie some things that some auncient writers haue held Doe you follow them in all points You will not say so for very shame But our Church is truly Catholicke because it is not tied to the Iewes or Ierusalem no nor to any other place or persons but common to all that will beleeue in Iesus Christ VVhat get you if you proue your Church to be Catholicke since that alone without the two former points alreadie disproued cannot make any companie a true Church But neither can you proue your Church to be Catholicke let your argument speake That Church which is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the
so long that few find leisure to reade them p. 7. Authority how a meanes to beget faith p. 60. One man of authoritie and learning drawes many atter him p. 121. B To beleeue in Christ what it is p. 26. To beleeue the Catholick Church what it is p. 156. We do not beleeue in y e church because that were to equal it with God p 157. They that truly beleeue in Christ shall not erre out of the way that leadeth to euerlasting life p. 232. Beleefe how wrought p 362. No man is forced to beleeue p. 361 362. No man withheld from beleeuing by God p. 58. A man may deliuer the truth and himselfe not beleeue p. 112. Beleeuing expresly implicitè p. 44 45. To beleeue that is to assent is not in the power or choice of mans will p. 40. For what reason we must beleeue or assent to the truth p. 30. 31. 42. 43. 47. True beleeuers cannot be separated frō Christ by death p. 167. Misbeleeuing and obstinately not beleeuing differ much p. 39. Misbeleeuing how far daminable p. 51. Obstinatly not beleeuing how not dam nable p 39. 40. 49. Refusing to beleeue against conscience alwayes damnable p. 40. 41. C Catharin foresaw the Councell of Trent would be misunderstood p 323. Catholick what it signifieth p. 280. 281. Few ordinarie Papists know 280. What the Catholike Church is why so called p. 280. 283. 284. 285. 286. 374. Not all one with Romane p. 7. As Papists vnderstand it a meere name p. 187. 199. 373. 407. Said to be Catholicke in sixe respects p. 281. In respect of al places persons p. 285. Catholicknesse seldome taken for vniuersalitie of time 281. 373. No particular Church Catholick as Papists vnderstand Catholick p. 3. The Church before our Sauiours comming not Catholicke as the Papists teach p 281. The Catholicke Church continueth frō Adam to the end of the world p. 160 164. 281. The church not called Catholick by any autor within the first 200. years p. 283. No man called a Catholick in the Apostles time p. 282. The word Catholicke not vsed in the Scriptures p. ead The title Catholicke not giuen to any of the Epistles by the Apostles themselues p. ead The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 151. Teaching contrary to the Catholicke Church how farre accursed p. 106. The Catholick Church is as wel in heauen as in earth p. 6. 8. Not visible p. 209. The Protestāts church Catholick p. 408. The Church what it is pag. 6. 10. 26. 71. 150. 169. 170. 175. 199. 225. 393. Not the Clergie onely p. 71. 123. 131. Papists define it with relatiō to the Pope of Rome p. 200. A Councel of Bishops y e Popish Church p. 136. 150. All professors are not the true Church 177. The congregation and gouernours are properly the Church where they liue p. 148. 227. Diuers significations of y e word Church 127. 128. see Ecclesia All beleeuers p. 120. 210. The elect beleeuers liuing in the world p. 201. 210. Generally a companie assembled or not assembled p. 210. Where the Church is to be sought p. 61. To be knowne only by y e scriptures p. 56 How it is to be knowne p. 221. How the pillar and ground of truth pa. 151. 152. Built and founded vpon the truth p 154. The faith therof how far to be enquired after p. 14. The authoritie thereof how farre to be yeelded to p. 45. 50 54. 91. 111. 151. 246. 250. 275. A maine delusion and needlesse p. 67. 72 90. 104. 238. 239. Cannot make that damnable which is not so of it selfe p. 49. Increaseth the sinne of not beleeuing when it determineth truly p. 49. Not spoken of in the old testament p. 97 How far commended to vs by the Scripture p. 96. 97. How Austin was moued to beleeue by the authoritie of the Church p. 93. The authoritie of the Church is great in matters not to be decided by scripture p. 95. 96. 155. 250. The testimonie and authoritie thereof is but humane p. 242. 243. What it is for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church p. 249. Not to heare the Church p. 147. All Churches may erre p. 6. 46. 135. What is necessary to the being of a true Church p. 239. Many reprobates are members thereof according to the Papists p 164. Outward profession enough to make a man a mēber thereof according to y e Papists pa. 23. 123. 224. 264. 272. 350. Why we ought to seeke for and ioyne our selues to a true Church p. 219. 234. Gods true publicke worship cannot ordinarily be performed but in a true Church p. 219. The Church not holding the foundatiō of y e Apostles doctrine is to be left p. 14 Truth of doctrine in points fundamental a certaine marke of a true church p 240. 249. Succession to the Apostles in doctrine makes Churches Apostolicke p. 301. Was neuer without some diuersitie of opinions among the learned p. 311. The Church erred in diuers points within the first six hūdred years p. 163. How it is one p. 158. 160. 201. 215. 263. 264. 266. 284. 309. 318. The Protestants Church is one p. 406. Adam Abel Enoch c. were of the Protestants Church p. 341. 353. No writer within the first thousand yeres agrees with the Papists of the Councell of Trent in all points p. 341. The Popish Church hath not yet determined all points p. 14. 375. The Church y t ignorant Papists beleeue is a Priest or a Iesuit p. 15. 16. 17. 71. The Papists circle of the Scripture the Church p. 72. 91. 244. 246. 261. 413 How a whole Church may be counted holy 271. Many thousands neuer had knowledge of any Church p 55 No man can certainly know that there is any true Church but by the Scriptures p 244. The Church hath properly to do with none but Christians p. 90. 193. The Church was confined to Africke by the Donatists p. 3. 173. 216. 288. It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church p. 212. What it is to sit in Moses chaire p. 140. 141. Who are meant by the Church beleeued in the Creed p. 157. 158. 168. 175 210. The elect called are properly the church p. 158. 159. 165. 168. 211. 212. 213. 217 265. That Church is not visible p. 174. 177. To that onely is continuance promised p. 217. The continuance of the Church dependeth vpō her being ioyned to Christ p. 168. The Church in the Apostles time did not alwayes hold the same points of faith p. 310. To beleeue in the Church were to equal it with God p. 157. The ceremonies before Christ were not continued without interruption pag. 170. 227. Communion with a Church may be refused by ignorance without pride p. 275. Confession to a minister neither commanded nor forbidden by Protestant Churches p. 342. Popish confession rather prouokes men to sinne then restraines them from it 342. 343. Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae