2 But why would not Mr. Willes answer mee A. I suppose I prevented him truly it is not worthy the while and is not this your cunning by such Pamphlets to draw him off by imploying him from further prosecuting this subject Q. 3 But why will not Mr. Willes dispute with mee A. Alas you see what rashness you are guilty of by seeing how a mean man can deal with you and what little need there was of it Q. 4 But why were the people so rude when I desired publick satisfaction A. It is the trick of the Devil first to be the cause of an offence and then to accuse for it Q. 5 But why do I answer you by Counter-Queries A. That you may see how easie it is for a fool to aske more Questions than a wise man can answer The Confident QUESTIONIST QUESTIONED OR The Querists Questions Answered by COUNTER-QUERIES The Question stated by Mr. Ives Mr. Willes ONe thing asserted by you was That it was not lawful for any to preach ordinarily and constantly but such as were ordained except it was for approbation or in cases of necessity when such Ordination cannot bee had SIR Reply YOu have so ingenuously stated the Question that I hope in my following Queries I shall not need upon every occasion to mention the termes ordinarily and constantly and the exceptions viz. the cases of approbation and necessity Query 1. Whether any thing can bee charged as sin upon any but what is against a Divine Law since the Apostle saith Rom. 4.5 Where there is no Law there is no transgression 1 John 3.4 Sin is the transgression of a Law Counter-Query As that must needs bee a sin which is against a Divine Law 1 Joh. 3.4 so is not that a sin which is practised as a Gospel duty and hath no law or foundation in the Gospel Who hath required these things at your hands Query 2. Whether by any Law of God it is a sin for men that are gifted for the Ministery to preach the truth of Christ to the edification of their Brothren although they were not put upon it by reason of your supposed necessity or though they should never bee ordained to office Counter-Query Must not then unordained mens preaching be sinful seeing they not onely have no law for it if they have shew it but unwarrantably transgress a Divine institution Query 3. If there bee any Law manifesting such a practise to bee sinful pray tell mee where that Law is written that so I may see my errour and reform Counter-Query First Is not that an Apostolical Institution for the ordination of Ministers Tit. 1.5 Ordain Elders in every City 2 Is not publick teaching an act of that office as well as baptizing being both joyned in the same commission Mat. 28.19 Is there any difference put 3 Are not unordained men that are teachers usurpers upon that office and transgressours of that Divine Institution do not you see your errour by this Query 4. If there bee a liberty for gifted men to preach in order to their approbation for Office as you confess pray tell mee whether they do not preach in the capacity of gifted Brethren before their Ordination since they cannot preach by vertue of Office while as yet they are not in it Counter-Query Is there not a third thing which you forget viz. that Approbationers preach neither as meer gifted Brethren nor as lawfully constituted Officers But as having by consent of Ministers who have power to confer the Office leave to preach in relation to an Office Doth a Boy you take upon likeing sell your Cheese as hee is fit to sell it or as your Apprentice if as fit to sell it then every boy may have that right that is so fitted as your Apprentice hee can not because not bound therefore datur tertium hee sells it with your consent in relation to bee bound Query 5. If they preach as gifted Brethren before their Ordination then I quere How long they may thus preach till their preaching becomes sinful Counter-Query Is it not a sin and an usurpation all the while they preach without the forementioned relation Do you preach as a gifted Brother or not if as a gifted brother ought you not to shew what law you have expresly to warrant it if as one in Office how came you by it were you ordained by Ministers or not if by Ministers whether by Protestant or Popish that you may assure us of your Office But if by a Church I aske are not Election and Ordination distinct things do you ever read that the Church did any thing but elect ought you not to shew some authority from a Divine Institution the Church hath to ordain or else do you not run before sent Query 6. If you say Till the Ministry of Presbyters approve them and are very well satisfied with their abilities and qualifications for that imployment then I quere How if this man whom they approve of is unsatisfied with their power to ordain him is it then a sin for him to preach till hee is satisfied with their power Counter-Query Seeing Approbationers preach in relation to an Office ought not others to bee accounted rather intruders than Approbationers But if truly Approbationers ought they to preach any longer than till approved can you think Ministers would approve him to bee in Office that owned not their power to ordain him doth hee preach by vertue of the Ministers consent in relation to an Office that owns not their power but rather as a gifted brother and a transgressour of the Gospel Order and Institution How can you bee satisfied with the power of the Church to ordain had it been the Churches work why did not the Apostle enjoyn the Romans Corinthians Galatians Ephesians Philippians Thessalanions to ordain Ministers rather than Timothy and Titus If it bee as you say why did hee mention it at all to these Ministers Timothy and Titus and why is hee quite silent of it to the Churches in all those Epistles if it bee not rather the Ministers work than the Churches Query 7. How if a man bee gifted and inabled to preach the Gospel to edification and comfort and yet findes himself very short of a power to rule the Church of God as that Office requires or it may bee wants faithful Children such as are not accused of ryot it may bee hee hath not power over his passion but may bee soon angry c. which are those qualifications that Paul tells Timothy and Titus MUST bee found in such officers See 1 Tim. 3.4 5. Tit. 1.6 7. I quere from hence whether a man should sin to use those gifts God hath blessed him withal out of Office because hee hath not all those qualifications that are required before hee bee admitted to Office Counter-Query Are you not bound ere there will bee any strength in this Query to shew by some law that a man may exercise a part of that office with which hee is not
for thus the word signifieth Rom. 1.5 15.15 1 Cor 3.10 All these things lye upon you to consider ere you can evince that this particular Example may bee an exception to that positive institut ion ad more must bee said ere you can make this particular instance a foundation for the constant and ordinary practice of unordained men Query 10. It is said Mal. 3.16 that THEY that feared the Lord SPAKE OFTEN one to another c. And Heb. 10.25 It is required that wee should not forsake the assembling of our selves together but exhort one another daily c. where by the light of these Texts it doth not appear 1 That Gods people ought to meet often together 2 That they may and ought to exhort one another being thus assembled 3 Whether by one another wee are not to understand any one that hath a word or gift of Exhortation as well such as are no Officers as those that are Counter-Query Doth this Text Mal. 3.16 and Heb. 10.25 prove any authoritative act of preaching to bee done by unordained men where is one such word or rational consequence do not you know that wee acknowledge Christians ought to meet together to edifie one another in mutual exhortations but ought it not bee done according to Gospel order and rule Query 11. Is it not written Rom. 2.1 2. Therefore thou art inexcusable O man whosoever thou art that judgest for wherein thou judgest another thou condemnest thy self for thou that judgest dost the same things Verse 3. And thinkest thou this O man that judgest them that do such things and dost the same that thou shalt escape the judgement of God Verse 22. Thou that abhorrest Idols dost thou commit sacriledge Whether by the light of these Scriptures your darkness is not discovered who told the people how sinful and dangerous it was to hear such as Mr. Brooks when your self hath heard him once and again And whether all the excuses that you have for such a practice will not bee arguments to justifie others as well as you And since you cryed the hearing of such men down as a general evil without any exception pray tell mee let your pretence in hearing bee what it will how can you do evil that good may come And whether by the same pretence that you can make to hear Mr. Brooks if to hear him bee sinful which is not yet proved any man may not hear in an Idols Temple or eat meat in an Idols temple and so cause his weak brother to bee emboldened in his way and make him to perish for whom Christ dyed contrary to that in 1 Cor. 8.10 11. Counter-Query Though the people are not called to hear him that is not called to preach Rom. 10.14 with 15. how shall they hear without a sent-Preacher yet may not Mr. Willes be called to correct him that is not called to preach is hee not called to that very place to instruct and teach is hee not bound to convince gain-sayers then and is hee not bound to hear therefore that hee may convince them hath any of the Congregation such a Call as this may not a Captain even while his troop is marching up against an enemy go out of his rank to view the enemy when it is death to a common souldier ought not the sheep to run away from the Wolf yet the Shepheard may stand him and pursue May not a Physitian go to one sick of the Plague yet it will bee a tempting of providence for others to do it Hath not the Minister a better Call to pluck up tares than the people to receive them But is not this a slander you lay upon Mr. Willes or do you remember the reasons of his dehortation Query 12. It is said Heb. 5.12 That when for the time yee OUGHT to bee Teachers c. I query from hence Whether here is not a Duty required and whether the Duty bee not Teaching Again whether the persons that the Text saith OUGHT to teach were not members out of Office If so then I query whether that this Teaching might not as lawfully have been performed in publick Assemblies as in private Families Since neither this nor any other Text makes the one any more unlawful than the other provided they have abilities to the one as well as to the other Counter-Query Is there in the 5. of the Heb. 12. the least ground for gifted brethrens teaching if they ought to bee Teachers ought it not to bee according to the Gospel rule Masters of families to their families Ministers to their Congregations But consider that this Text is meant either that they ought to bee able to bee Teachers or to bee actually Teachers if it speak of only the ability and power it is nothing to your purpose yet much to the Apostles who would shame them for their ignorance that had opportunity enough to bee more knowing this sense may be probable 1 Doth hee not plainly blame their ignorance under such means of knowledge because they were not capable of hard things Verse 11. so that it is a reproof that they could not understand those mysteries hee would tell them not that they were not Teachers 2 Had they been such Teachers as they ought had they not been receivers of strong meat vers 12. not stewards to provide it for others 2 But if you say it is meant of being actually Teachers you must prove it first and secondly That it is not meant of private teaching in families c. but if without reason you will say it is meant of actually publick teaching you must prove it ere wee shall beleeve you is not this spoke in general to all the Jewish Christians women are not excepted and ought they to bee teachers 2 If all the Jewish Church ought to bee actually publick teachers do not they sinne in your Church that are not so tell them the next time as indefinitely as the Text is all you my Church sinne if you do not all actually practice publick preaching if all the Church ought to be a tongue where will the hearing bee Query 13. It is said 1 Cor. 14.1 Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts but rather that yee may PROPHESIE c. compare this Verse with the 24. but if ALL prophesie and there come in one that beleeveth not c. and Verse 31. Yee may ALL prophesie one by one that all may learn and all may bee comforted From these Texts I query whether that this was a prophesying by Gift or Office if it shall bee said it was by Office then I query whether it was by ordinary or extraordinary Office If it shall bee said That it was by extraordinary Office then it follows That the Apostle exhorted the whole Church to covet after extraordinary Offices when hee exhorted them to follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts but rather that THEY might PROPHESIE v. 1. Counter-Query Is this to aske a Question for conscience sake when you will not take
notice of what Answers have been given unto this as well as other Queries is it not vain-glory to make the world beleeve that the London Ministers in their jus Divinum Min. ch 6. from p. 95. to 103. that Mr. Collins in his vindication Min. from p. 49. to 56. that Mr. Thomas Hall p. 56 to 59. and many others who writ concerning this Text have done nothing worthy Mr. Ives his regard of it 1 Is not an extraordinary Call by extraordinary gifts such an authority from God that no ordinary gifted brother as such may presume to have 2 Were not these in 1 Cor. 14 thus extraordinarily called 3 Were they not expresly called Prophets which is an Office improperly so called pro tempore 4 You may all prophesie can this be meant of any but Prophets is it an argument then for gifted brethren but you say then were all the Church exhorted to covet after extraordinary Offices Answ The word Office here is somewhat improper again it was but temporary and well may it be said that they all ought to seek after these extraordinary gifts which thus qualified them when a Judges place falls all the Serjeants in Town may lawfully seek for it though all cannot obtain it God had promised such gifts and ought they not to seek for them Query 14 If it shall bee said that prophesying here was an ordinary Office then it follows That the whole Church are exhorted to covet to bee ordinary Officers which would bee to make the whole Body of Christ monstrous If it shall bee said That they were not exhorted to prophesie as extraordinary or as ordinary Offices Then I query whether they were not to do it as gifted Brethren since wee never heard of any other way Counter-Query This Query is worth nothing only I query why may not your whole Church covet to bee all ordinary Officers as well as to bee preaching gifted brethren if because it is monstrous to have so many ruling heads is it not as monstrous to have as many speaking tongues in the body of Christ Query 15. Whereas you say That none ought to preach but those that are ordained except as before excepted I query Among those several Ordinations that are in Christendome which of those whether some one of them or all of them bee that which Christ approves of If you say All of them and that the errours of the Administrators in some Circumstances doth not make the Ordination a Nullity Counter-Query 1 Is not this the essential of Ordination viz. a setting apart Men to the Ministry by Ministers 2 Is not this the purity of it viz. when fit persons are duely set apart by Gospel Ministers in that Gospel way and for those Gospel ends a Ministry is appointed there being no superstitious corruption accompanying this Ordinance 3 May there not bee some circumstantial differences even among those that practice this purity in this Ordinance 4 May wee not say then that all the Ordinations in Christendome are approved by Christ that differ but thus circumstantially as well as men of opinions different in many things are accepted by him Query 16. Whether one may not by this Opinion bee lawfully ordained at Rome Counter-Query 1 Dare you say that Rome observes that Gospel purity in this Ordinance 2 Though the substance may be there yet is it not exceeding sinful NOW for US to submit to their impurities Considering that these three things only excuse in errours circumstantial 1 When the errour is so slight that it is no prejudice to the substance nor doth engage to other pernicious errours doth not Ordination among the Papists do this doth it not oblige to obedience to and Mission by that Autichristian See Note that the cases following excuse when this cannot bee pleaded 2 When a sincere aime at the substance is accompanied with ignorance of the errours in circumstance can wee plead ignorance of the errours of Rome or shall wee say that man hath a sincere aime that shall go thither to submit to it NOW 3 When a case of necessity is viz. 1 When we are bound to have the Ordinance its self 2 And when it cannot bee elsewhere had but with these errours and impurities 3 Or when greater evils than those errours would follow Is this our case NOW with Rome though Preachers are bound to submit to that Ordinance of Ordination yet can they not have it else where than at Rome in more purity Answer Sir Is it not in more purity done by the Ministers in England than by those at Rome Query 17. If you shall say The Protestant-Ordination is lawful and that only then I query which of those whether the Episcopal Presbyterian or Independent Ordination bee that which is approved by Christ to impower the Ministers to preach since all these are Protestants and greatly differ in this thing Counter-Query Do you not easily see by what hath been said that the Protestant Ordination only is acknowledged to bee lawful to us NOW Do you not as easily see the Episcopal Presbyterian and the most sober independent Ministers own the essence of this Ordinance viz. that it is a setting apart men to the Ministry by Ministers 2 That they practice the purity by setting apart fit men in a Gospel way for those Gospel ends a Ministry is appointed without superstitious intermixtures 3. Ought wee not then to say that ordination by all or any of them is approved by Christ and true Christians to impower Ministers to preach notwithstanding they may differ in some circumstantials Query 18. If you say All of these are lawful then were not the Ministers of the Episcopal way greatly out in crying up the Ordination by Bishops to bee the onely Authoritative Ordination in opposition to that of the Presbytery And that they did so will appear if you consult Dr. Jer. Taylor Chaplain to the late King in his Book called Episcopacy asserted page 120 121 122. It is cleer saith hee that Bishops were to do some Acts which the Presbyters COULD NOT do one of which hee calls Ordination by imposition of hands which hee saith was not to bee done by Presbyters Again the said Doctor saith That the Apostles did impose Hands for confirmation which saith hee was to continue in the Church and could not bee done by the seventy or any MEER Presbyter And for this hee cites the constant practice of the Fathers and the Opinions of divers Churches Therefore pray tell mee if this be that Ordination which a man must have without which his Preaching is sinful Counter-Query Is it not unchristian to charge the errour of one man though a worthy man upon the rest of the Episcopal way is it not evident that the most of them judged themselves to ordain as Ministers and not as meer Bishops Doth not Mr. Baxter say in his second sheet that Bishop Vsher did acknowledge Ordination by Presbyters without a Bishop to be vallid and that hee answered King Charles by an instance that